Deep Thoughts about The Muppet Christmas Carol with Erika Plank Hagan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is an interesting choice for our first
collaboration and, I think, areally successful one.
I think they still kept some ofthe Muppety stuff that you'd
want, but it also really changedthe trajectory of how Muppets
tell stories.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
We're sisters, tracy and Emily, collectively known as
the Guy Girls.
Every week we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.

(00:32):
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the show.
Notes and thanks.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, we are veryexcited to welcome my dear
friend, erica Plank-Hagan, who Ihave known since my days at
Kenyon College, to share herdeep thoughts about the Muppet
Christmas Carol with my sister,tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.

(01:07):
Let's dive in.
So welcome Erica.
Thank you for joining us today.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
I'm so excited.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
So it's been a few years since the last time I saw
a Muppet Christmas Carol,although I kind of went back and
looked at some favorite momentsrecently, like Light the Lamp,
not the Rat of course and youmean you could have gotten
through the bars any time.
So it's been a few years sinceI've seen it.

(01:37):
What I remember about it isthat I feel like it's a really
faithful adaptation of theoriginal Dickens, which I think
is pretty cool, so that thatpart I remember.
I remember loving the fact thatthey made Sattler and Waldorf
the Marley brothers, even thoughthere was only one Marley in

(01:58):
the original.
I remember feeling likeMichaelael cain is a treasure
because the man, like he,understood the assignment he
totally did right he acted hisface off, he so did um and is

(02:19):
one of the reasons why I am.
I am here for the idea of aMuppet Pride and Prejudice.
Oh my gosh, where um I?
Someone said something likeAdam Driver is Mr Darcy and
everyone else Muppets, um and um.
Yeah, that's the.

(02:39):
And then I know that there'ssome pretty good music in it.
Like, I don't like.
I just remember that they werebangers.
I don't, I couldn't sing them.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
I would now sing them all for you.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
So, tracy, what do you recall about this film?

Speaker 2 (02:56):
I just like I actually intentionally did not
go back to rewatch it beforethis session because I really
like, I'm excited and also Iwant to like experience it the
way our listeners might right,with a little, a little bit of
openness.
What I remember is light thelamp, not the rat, and I, in my
mind, this is the movie thatmade me love Rizzo.

(03:17):
So I have an ongoing deepaffection for Rizzo the rat, uh,
gonzo's best friend androommate, which I think started
with this movie and was maybe,like, certainly reinforced by
Muppets from Space.
I don't care what thechronology was, it might be
wrong, but in my mind, becausethe way that I watched them, it

(03:40):
started with Muppets from Space.
I mean, excuse me, muppetsChristmas Carol, reinforced by
Muppetsets from space, butreally, like this is the one I
identify as the reason that Ilove frizzo.
Uh, in part because of like thelamp, not the rat, I mean,
that's just such a great lineand uh, yeah, that's what I got,
that's that's all I got.
So, erica, enlighten us why,like you're a longtime listener,

(04:03):
you're a longtime listener,you're a longtime friend of the
guy girls, and like this was theone that you were like.
I want to come on and talkabout Memphis Christmas Carol.
Why?
What's in it for you?
Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
It is a huge part of my ritual of Christmas and my
growing up with specific socialgroups, how we watched it
together and what came out of itand, honestly, lines from it
are in my house all year long.
Am I growing up with specificsocial groups, how we watched it
together and what came out ofit?
And, honestly, lines from itare in my house all year long?
No doubt it's said regularly.
It's just how it is and Ididn't like this movie when I

(04:36):
first saw it.
So it's been an interestingevolution of like to love and
honestly, I'm an Episcopalpriest and Dickens comes up a
little bit for us.
A lot of his books were writtenwith a really specific critique
of society.
That was also an understandingof a certain Protestant theology

(04:57):
.
For him it was pretty linkedand so we use Dickens in sermons
a lot.
So, as I, that's a prettyrecent part of my life, but as I
did that and started rewatchingthe movie, I was like, oh
interesting.
Like there are things that Isaw as cringe as a kid that now
I'm like, oh well, that it makessense now.
So that's a fun evolution forme and Muppets.

Speaker 2 (05:21):
I mean come on.
I mean you got.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
Everyone knows that the guy girls are big muppet
fans we actually with our ourlist of movies that we're gonna
cover.
We have to be like have we donemuppets too recently?

Speaker 2 (05:35):
yeah, oh no yeah, and like our avatar on patreon is
like us as muppets like, whichis brilliant yeah, you, you,
really you don't.
You don't have to convince usthat the Muppets are awesome.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Well, and I think the Muppets are ideal for telling
this story In this thesis, Iwill yeah, Like it's.
It's pretty great.

Speaker 3 (05:56):
Why don't you kind of just walk us through the story?
Like the story of A ChristmasCarol is pretty well known, so
like, don't feel like you haveto go into every single detail,
but just maybe what makes thisthe Muppets version of it, and
also feel free to take your timetoo.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
So, like you said, this is A Christmas Carol story
that most people know, althoughI was pondering kids, kids, our
generation, what they might haveknown about it.
Watching it in 1992, um, I cameup that like scrooged was out a
couple years before, so maybethat, but I think for most
people this was their firstintroduction to the story so

(06:38):
that's interesting oh, that isinteresting, of the littles, you
know, like the Gen Xunderstands Dickens because of
the Muppets, because of this.
So, like you said, I'm going togo through the plot, but mostly
I'm going to hit on theMuppeting of it.
Is that a verb?

Speaker 2 (06:57):
It is now.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
Yes, I have a poetic license that I can lend to you.
Excellent, thank you.
I have a poetic license that Ican lend to you.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
Excellent, thank you.
So it's a musical and it openswith kind of a sweeping scene
from on high, looking over, youknow, 1800s London, and it's
very stylized, it's like itwould be on a stage, I think, to
recognize it.
And you swoop in and CharlesDick dickens, which is gonzo,

(07:26):
which is bonkers, and his friendfrizzo are narrating the story
to us.
They look directly at thecamera and talk about, uh,
ebenezer scrooge, who's going tocome in, and he swoops down the
road and the color changes onthe screen.
It goes from like warm to cooland we have our first song, you
know.
Here comes mr and um about whata horrible scroogey guy he is.

(07:50):
And it's a very muppet thingwhere they do this, when they go
side to side, when they sing umand it's all introducing the
kind of character he is.
And, uh, I skipped an importantpart.
I'm gonna circle back, youready.
So gonzo says hi, I'm charlesdickens, and and rizzo goes hi,

(08:10):
I'm rizzo the rat, and you'renot charles dickens, you're
gonzo.
And that's actually a reallyimportant part to the story.
That um, it's saying we aregoing to be playing characters
here and um.
There's a really fun part wheregonzo's like I do the story
like the back of my hand.
And then he holds his hand outand he's like there's a really
fun part where Gonzo's like Iknow the story like the back of
my hand.
And then he holds his hand outand he's like there's a wart on
my thumb and Rizzo's like what?
And then what proves it toRizzo that he's Charles Dickens

(08:32):
is that he says around thiscorner is going to come Ebenezer
Scrooge.
And then he does so.
It sets him as an omniscientstoryteller.
Much of what Gonzo says isstraight from Dickens.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
That is so cool, like I mean we'll get to it, but
like the meta in terms ofstorytelling, in terms of what
the Muppets were teaching us, aslike young Gen X and
millennials, about howstorytelling works by breaking
the fourth wall, by like namingthe, like their puppets on the
ends of people's Anyway, sorry,it's amazing.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Carry on, carry on, all right.
So we have that song.
Scrooge goes to his officethere's a fun thing where he
turns around and everybody hasbeen singing and they all freeze
and then they disperse onto thestreet.
Going into the office, we meetKermit as Bob Cratchit and a
bunch of rats that you'llremember from Muppets.
Take Manhattan, who worked inthe restaurant.

(09:22):
They are the bookkeepers in thething.
Um, while Scrooge is in theoffice, he has some visitors.
We have, uh, bunsen, honeydewand Beaker who come in as two
gentlemen collecting money forcharity for the poor.
And um, scrooge says absolutelynot.
And there's, there's a lot offun.

(09:45):
Are there no poorhouses?
Are there no prisons?
And they go.
Well, yes, there are plenty ofthose.
And he goes.
Phew, I was worried.
And what's lovely is thatHoneydew does the talking and
then Beaker goes meep, meep,meep, meep, meep, meep, like in
the exact same cadence of theVictorian it's marvelous.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
That is their shtick and it's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
It works really well um, fred, his nephew, who's a
human, comes in to invite him tohis home for christmas dinner
and scrooge is like I don't evenunderstand why you're
celebrating this.
You're stupid poor.
And he goes I'm fine, yeah,it's christmas and love and
that's all it is.
Um, I'm obviously paraphrasingthe dickens there.
I don't't think stupid poor was, but that's the basic thing.

(10:27):
And then comes a scene that'svery important to my heart,
because my cousin Elizabethloved this so much and with the
VCR tape we had to rewind it andwatch it a lot which is that
Benjamin Bunny is that his name?
Yeah, the little bunny comes upand he sings Good King
Wenceslas looked out on thefeast of steven and scrooge
opens the door and he goesbrightly shown the moon that

(10:50):
night.
And then, um, he gets veryscared and, um, he asks for
money for his carol and scroogegoes, bah, humbug, and slams the
door and he walks away.
And then scrooge opens it againto throw the wreath at him and
it hits him in the head and hefalls in the snowbank and a
hundred times before we couldcontinue.
So Scrooge goes back in BobCratchit asks if they could have

(11:17):
the day off for Christmas thenext day and he says no.
And he says, but there's goingto be no one to do business with
.
And he says it's a poor excusefor picking a man's pocket every
december 25th.
But fine, be back all theearlier the next day and he
leaves.
There's a lovely song where bobcratchit and the rats clean up
and the rats are doing thethings like they're standing on
brooms and having to catapult toclose the windows because

(11:41):
they're rats.
They close close up forChristmas.
Kermit goes outside and it'sthe penguins ice skating parties
.
There's a fun montage of winterdelight and I want to point out
that this is all practical.
So when you see Kermit skatingacross the pond, that's
practical.
And there's a place where Gonzoand Rizzo go whoa, whoa, whoa,

(12:01):
and that's also practical andit's very well done.
Scrooge goes home and this isthe one place where there isn't
practical stuff, which is helooks at the doorknob and it
turns into the face of JacobMarley, which is actually
Statler, walt Open Statler.
We'll talk about that later.

(12:22):
That's something I want to tagtag, but that's not practical.
It becomes very ghosty.
Then he goes in um gonzo isstill narrating from the outside
, and so a lot of it is themtrying to get inside to see what
is happening.
So they do this a lot in themovie.
When things get a little ghosty,they get a little funny too, to

(12:42):
try and make it a kid's movie.
Um, uh, he's searches the houseto see if there are any ghosts
and he decides there isn't.
But he sits by the fire in thedark with his bread and his
cheese.
You know it's, it's very umstark.
And then, uh, the song that Ithink emily is thinking of in
her head right now, which is theMarley and Marley, you know Woo

(13:05):
.
So Sattler and Waldorf come upand they practical, but you can
see through them they do a lotof fun ghosty stuff and they
sing a song about how they aredoomed and covered in chains for
how horribly they lived onEarth and that Scrooge can not
have this fate if he learns fromthe three spirits that are
going to come.
And Scrooge is like that soundsterrible, I don't want any

(13:30):
spirits, and they're like, toobad, they're coming.
The first one comes when theclock strikes one.
He goes to bed.
He's very trepidatious, gonzomakes it up to the window and he
goes.
The first ghost comes when theclock strikes one, and then,
dong, there's light everywherehe gets thrown off the window.
Um, the ghost of christmas pastis in the book described like a

(13:51):
candle flame, like flickering,and for this ghost in the movie
it's a puppet.
But they recorded it first inbaby oil and then underwater to
have the etherealness of it,which baby whale sounds awful,
but I I don't know why so verylight and floaty and british
accenty.
And um invites him to go backto see christmas past and he

(14:17):
takes his the ghost's hand andthey fly out and gonzo and rizzo
repel a rope up there so theycan also go along and continue
to narrate for us.
There's a lot of that too, oflike, how do we get Gonzo and
Rizzo to the next scene, and itusually works out just fine.
So they fly over London, flash,flash, flash, going back in

(14:37):
time.
Scrooge says the dawn is comingand she goes no, it's the past.
And they end up in his schoolroom, which is a one-room school
room, and there's a great scenewhere the camera pans along the
side and you see, likearistotle and moliere and
shakespeare, and then, as itslides along, it's rizzo and
gonzo all on the same.
It's amazing, um, and they're.

(15:03):
Uh, scrooge says, oh, my gosh,I remember this room, this is
amazing and they're all myfriends and this is wonderful.
And then the kids come in andgo hey, you got to take the
coach home for christmas.
And he goes who cares aboutstupid christmas?
And scrooge realizes that hespent most of his christmases
alone in that room and theloneliness of it.
And they do a fun time lapsething where you see him getting
older, um, and then at the endit sort of stops that time-lapse

(15:28):
and the eagle comes in.
I'm blanking on his name rightnow, do you all have it, it's
Sam Sam.
Thank you, sam.
The eagle is his headmaster,who comes in and says you've now
know it's.
You're starting your life inthe world of business and I
think you're going to reallylike business, because that is

(15:49):
what adults do we work inbusiness very sammy and he goes
it's the american way.
And then ganza comes up and hegoes it's the british way.
So he's starting hisapprenticeship at Fozzy Wigs
Rubber Chicken Factory, which Ithink is marvelous because in

(16:10):
the book it's Fezziwig.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
That is so wonderful.
I feel like someone in theHenson Corporation.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
the entire reason they wanted to do this was
because of Fozzy Wigs so wetravel to the uh christmas party
where we see a more grown-upadult, slightly handsome scrooge
, um, walking in and everyoneelse is partying and he goes up
to fozzy or fezzy wig and saysdo you see how much this party

(16:39):
is costing?
And he goes oh, you know, it'schristmas.
This is what we do.
We spread joy, we have fun.
At this party is um animal anddr teeth's band from the muppet
show who are playing the oldvictorian music.
And then animal can't take itanymore and goes bam bam bam,
bam, bam, bam bam.
And it goes into like umragtime music, which is totally
not what it would be, but itworks.

(16:59):
And um, in that moment Scroogemeets Belle, who becomes the
love of his life.
And you see, michael Caine andScrooge get very, very
uncomfortable and the Ghost ofChristmas Past says there's
another Christmas with thisperson I remember.
And he goes please don't showme that one.
And they go out and they'reoutside lots of snow.

(17:20):
And she goes another year untilwe can get married.
And he goes business continuesto be poor.
I'm doing this all for you totry to make money.
I love you.
And she goes.
You did once.
And then there's a travestybecause they cut a very
important song, which we willdefinitely talk about later.
So if you watch a certainversion of this, what happens

(17:43):
now is that she gets up andleaves and Rizzo the rat is
crying hysterically and MichaelCaine is crying and you're like
that was a lot.
If you see another version,belle has a song saying when
love is gone, you have to moveon and it's very, very sad.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
I I remember that version and the thing is like it
was weird because I haven'tseen it in its entirety since
the like the mid 90s, and sowhen I I heard that there was
like this, this controversyabout this version, I was just
like wait, what?
How did this happen?

Speaker 2 (18:21):
we gotta talk about it.
Yeah, let's come back to it.
I want to.
I want to hear about the otherghosts, yeah this is a shot,
first moment.

Speaker 3 (18:29):
Anyway, go ahead yeah , absolutely so.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Um, scrooge cries, dissolve, dissolve, dissolve,
dissolve.
He's back in his bedroom.
Then clock strikes two.
It's the ghost of Christmaspresent, who is a giant,
redheaded, bearded, muppety guy.
It's a guy in an outfit.
It's sort of like a Big Birdstyle puppet instead of a hand
style puppet.
He's walking around.
He's enormous, he fills thewhole room and he goes.
You're a little absent-mindedspirit because he keeps

(18:55):
forgetting, because he's alwaysin the present, which is from
the book.
And then he goes.
No, I'm a large absent-mindedspirit.
He's that kind of punny guy andhe shows him what Christmas can
be when you're not alone.
And so outside and everyone'ssinging and Michael Caine does a
marvelous job of watching andthen starting to like, slowly

(19:15):
try to dance with him, it's verydear.
And then he goes.
This is wonderful.
I think I want to see family onChristmas.
That's a thing, right.
He's like yeah, that's a thing.
And he takes him to his nephewFred's apartment where he's
having the Christmas party thatScrooge said he wasn't going to
go to, and this is where my12-year-old self, seeing in the
theater, got horriblyembarrassed and sad and wanted

(19:37):
to leave.
I did not like this, which isthat they play a game.
It's like 20 questions whereyou think of something and
everyone asks you and Fred saysokay, I'm thinking of something,
and they ask questions and theyget to like it's an unwanted
animal creature that is neverwelcome and people are like is
it a rat, is it a cockroach, isit?
And his wife goes oh my gosh, Iknow who it is.

(19:57):
It's ebenezer scrooge.
And everyone laughshysterically.
And then michael kane beingmichael kane, is just like
devastated.
And then 12 year old erica waslike this is awful.
Why are we doing this?
Because we learn and growthat's so sweet yeah so, um, he
goes.
All right, I don't want to behere anymore.

(20:17):
Can you show me a place wherepeople are actually nice?
And they go to Bob Cratchit'shouse and the best song in the
movie is here.
Bob Cratchit is walking homewith Robin on his shoulder, who
is Tiny Tim, and they rehash.
It's a remake of a song thatwas sung earlier at the Penguins
Christmas party.

(20:45):
It's, it's the season to behappy and joyous, like it's this
, it's the best.
So they're walking home and, um, then we jump back in the house
and we have mrs piggy as emilycratchit and the various
children around.
The girls are pigs, the boysare frogs, clearly.
And, um, they're getting thechristmas dinner ready.
There's a goose.
Uh, the way that rizzo andgonzo end up in the house is
they go down the chimney andland on the goose and rizzo does
a little dance on the hot goose.

(21:05):
Um, here's an almost bechdelmoment that I'm gonna need your
help with later.
And then, uh, they come in andit's uh, god bless us.
Everyone.
Tiny tin talks about how he'sglad people saw him in church,
because it reminds them that,you know, uh, jesus healed the
sick and lame and that, with hecould be a reminder to that for
everyone and the love we share,and god bless us everyone.

(21:28):
It's a really beautiful,heartwarming thing and um that
you could tell michael cain isreally buoyed by it.
And then he sees Tiny Timcoughing, like he gets so
excited he can't, he can'tbreathe anymore, and so the
family immediately shifts gearsand like, takes him to the side
to take care of him, and MichaelCaine turns to the ghost of

(21:49):
Christmas present and says is hegonna be okay?
And he goes.
Well, I can only see thepresent, but I feel like if
things keep going as they are inthe present, next year there
will be an empty stool with acane next to it, and that's when
it ends.
That's when they do back, andat this point Michael Caine has
realized or Michael Caine,ebenezer Scrooge has realized

(22:11):
that he's learning things here,that growth is happening, it's a
good idea.
So he goes all right, right, atthree I'm going to get the
ghost of Christmas future and Iam welcoming it.
I am here for the lesson.
What it is and what happens is afog comes and it's really,
really scary, like a wall of fogcomes in and he runs, runs,
runs and gets overtaken by itand then he's in a graveyard and

(22:33):
the ghost of Christmas futureis my favorite design.
It's like, um, it's like agraveyard and the Ghost of
Christmas Future is my favoritedesign.
It's like a huge blanket, likea huge cloth over the guy.
You can't see his face in thehood and the arms are a little
extra long and basically all hedoes is point.
He never talks, so he pointswith that really long skeletal

(22:54):
arm at things and the music hereis do-do, do, do do like it's
um, good vibes, good moment.
And this is where gonzo andrizzo get scared and they say
this is a scary part, but we'llsee you at the finale, which is
important for kiddos becausethen we know there's a happy
finale to get through this scarypart.
So, um, michael, cain, caine,erica, we'll talk about that too

(23:21):
, how people are, who they are.
Ebenezer Scrooge says all right, show me what you're going to
show me.
So he flashes into the streetit's still snowy, but rainy and
gray and sad.
And there are four wealthy pigsso fun to say with um monocles
and like that kind of thing.
And they go.

(23:41):
Did you hear that he died?
And they go oh my gosh, Ithought he was too mean to die.
Well, I will go to the funeralif there's lunch provided.
And they go.
And um scrooge says oh my gosh,who are they talking about?
And the guy guy doesn't talkright the ghost of Christmas
future.
So he just points again andthey go inside.
And then it's Joe who's a spider, and they're three people

(24:02):
bringing stuff.
And he goes.
So what did you bring me fromthe house of mourning?
You know, what do you got forold Joe?
And um, these people wouldsnuck in and stolen things
before the house got turned over.
And one guy's, you know, I havehis mother of pearl cufflinks
and I have this.
Um, there's a place wheresomeone says I have his bed
clothes that are damask, fine,damask.
And he goes cheap, fine, damask, right.

(24:23):
And then the last, the best one, is someone says and here's his
blanket, and the spider goeswhy?
It's still warm.
I don't pay extra for thewarmth, you know.
And she goes you should, it'sthe only bit of warmth he ever
had.
And then it was, haha.
And there's a marvelous momenthere where you realize joe is a
spider, takes the things andhands it to his back legs.
So there's this like little bitof business in the whole thing

(24:45):
that he's just taking it all in.
So at this point ebony scroogeis a little disturbed and he
goes spirit who are they talkingabout?
And points and he, and hedoesn't answer and he goes well,
show me some happiness then,because this is too sad, show me
.
Uh, go.
Let's go to bob cratchit'shouse, where it's very sad
because tiny tim has died onthat christmas.

(25:07):
And, um, bob cratchit kermitcomes back and talks about how
he found a lovely gravestonethat looks out on the water to
feed the ducks, because tiny timalways liked the ducks and
everyone's.
Their throats are catching,they're trying to cry and they
sit down and Kermit Cratchitsays you know, we're all very
sad, but this is the way ofthings.

(25:27):
There's comings and goings,partings and leavings, and
because of the love that heshowed us and what he taught us,
we will never forget him and hewill always be with us.
It's a really nice message forhis sad family.
And um scrooge has a sort ofepiphany and he goes who, who's
the guy?
Who's the guy that they weretalking about, who had died?

(25:48):
And the spirit takes him backto the graveyard and points to a
grave.
And ebenezer scrooge goes no,no, don't tell.
No, I don't, I don't actuallywant to know.
And he keeps pointing at thegrave and pointing at the grave
and finally he wipes it away andit's his own name.
And he goes this can't be it.
This surely can't be it.
People can change.
Surely people can change,please, I beg you.
And he holds his robes and hegoes oh my gosh, they did it all

(26:20):
in one night.
Of course they can.
They're spirits.
You know, he's just lost hismind.
Um the bunny comes back.
He opens up the window and thelittle bunny that he had thrown
the wreath at is going under.
And he's the fine young man.
Do they still have the turkeydown the street?
The one that's as big as me,you know?
That moment the bunny gets itand uh, he goes off and runs the
thing and uh, there's a songwhere scrooge does the awkward
dance of the coast of christmaspresent and he buys all sorts of

(26:44):
things for everybody and itends up being a parade trailing
through the town of the bunnyholding this enormous turkey and
everyone holding his gifts thathe's bought everyone.
He goes back and he visits samthe eagle and fozzie, and, as
they're very old, and gives thempresents.
And he goes back and he visitsSam the Eagle and Fozzie, as
they're very old, and gives thempresents.
And he goes to his nephews andthey're flabbergasted, but he
gives them presents.
And he goes to all these places.
He goes to Bob Cratchit's houseand then he turns around and

(27:04):
goes shh, hide, hide, hide.
And he goes in the door and hegoes Bob Cratchit, you are not
at work.
And Kermit says you gave youthe day off.
And he goes no, you did, youdidn't.
He goes well then I'm going togive you a raise and pay your
mortgage.
And at that point mrs piggy isemily cratchit and she goes and
I'm gonna punch you in theweight, you're gonna.

(27:25):
What now?
And so he brings everything in,and I've always had a problem
that he brings a raw turkey as,like, the gift for christmas
dinner.
But we'll put that aside and itends up being a huge magic.
It's just rude.
It's just rude.
She spent all day cooking thatgoose and then he's like anyway.

(27:49):
So it ends very Muppety.
It's around the dining roomtable and they are singing.
And another thing I don't loveis that they give Michael Caine
the God bless us everyone line.
Instead of Tiny Tim Robinstarts to say God bless us, and
then Michael Caine goes ahem,god bless us everyone.
But he went through a lot.
I suppose he earned it.
And then it pans out and outand out and out, and it's sort

(28:12):
of like the end of a lot of theMuppet movies, where you see
everybody singing the end song,which is the love we have.
The love we have, we're neverquite alone.
You know, it's one of thosethings, the Christmas, which is
why the missing song is reallyimportant.
An interesting thing when itpans out up to this point we've

(28:34):
been very sort of forcedperspective it looks like a big
city and when you pan, pan back,you sort of see it's a set like
everything gets a littlesmaller and you see that
everyone who did this movie fitsin this one little thing so
it's a frame from the verybeginning, with the no, you're
gonzo.
Yeah too, like it's, it was alla set, yeah yeah, and then the

(28:55):
credits which replay one of thesong, including insult to injury
, a Martina McBride cover of themissing song.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
Scene All right.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Okay, all right.
So I feel like we have to startyour analysis with the missing
song, because now it's like Ifeel very strongly about it.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, it's Chekhov's gun.
At this point, we have to startyour analysis with the missing
song, because now it's like Ifeel very strongly about it.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, it's Chekhov's Gone.
At this point you have toexplain it.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
All right.
So this is interesting onseveral levels.
I'm going to do like theofficial version first and then
the like why in my householdthis is a bombshell.
It is a song that is acompanion song to the end song,
when love is gone.
When love is gone.
And the last one is the love wefound.
The love we found.

(29:42):
It's telling a really specificstory.
The executives at Disney thoughtthat it was too long and too
boring and too sad for kids todeal with this three minute song
of a woman singing aboutleaving Scrooge because the love
is gone.
So they took it out of thetheater release and it wasn't in

(30:03):
there.
Then, in the VHS release, brianHenson was like we really need
this song, it's important.
So they put it in the VHSrelease.
But then the DVD and initialstreaming releases they took it
out again.
So there are people who haveseen all these different
versions of it.
Now on Disney+ there are two.
You have to figure out whichone has it and which one doesn't

(30:26):
.
But they thought they had lostthe footage after the VHS
release.
They're like, oh, it's gone, itdoesn't exist anymore, which
just seems like a weird thingfor the Disney Vault, but anyway
.
So that's the timeline.
What is bizarre for my personalstory with this thing is that,

(30:46):
first of all, if you had askedme if I saw that song in the
theater, I would say yes.
My memory is sitting in thetheater and watching that song
and specifically rememberingthat the singer's nostrils flare
dramatically when she singsbecause this is what my brother

(31:07):
and cousin and I, like she wouldstart seeing.
We go, oh no, the nostrils likeevery time.
And, honest to god, that's whyI thought they could.
I thought someone was like thatis too nostrilly, we cannot
have this song.

Speaker 3 (31:19):
Until like two days ago, I thought I'm just
imagining, like on the bigscreen too, so like a lost
driver trucking it.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
We didn't climb it, which is what, in my head, canon
happened, but clearly it didn't.
It was not there, oh, mygoodness.
Yes, my husband has a friendgroup that watches this every
year and during the pandemic westarted doing it, where you can
watch movies at the same timeand still talk to each other and

(31:58):
we always pause and sing thesong and then restart it again,
like for us it's become a thingthat you have to add in and I
have to say, like as a musicianand as a storyteller in my life,
like it's really important.
There's a reason why theyreprised it at the end, like
it's it's explaining this wholearc of what.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
Yeah, it's a turning point for him.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
It's huge yeah and just take it out like songs
don't matter.
Like you're in a musical, songsmatter a lot.
Um so I really disagree withthat disney exec and also I find
it very, very interesting.
But then what kills me aboutdisney in this moment is that
they took it out of the moviebut they'd had Martina McBride
record a really terrible countrycover of it and they were like,

(32:43):
well, we'll still put that inthe credits, cause that might
sell and it's a bad.
It's a good song in the movie.
I actually love martina mcbride.
It's a bad version of it, likeit's not good.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Um so the travesty of the song that's anyone's
watching this for the first time, I recommend you do it with
that's interesting, just thebecause we talk sometimes about
how, um like, because moviemaking is a particular type of
art, because there's so muchcollaboration, and then also,
and then there's so muchcollaboration and then there's

(33:14):
happy accidents and things likethat, and then you also
sometimes get executive meddling, for sure, and this was the
first movie that Henson Studiosmade with Disney after it sold
with them?

Speaker 2 (33:27):
So that's what I was wondering.
I felt like it was right aroundthat time.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah, so that's what I was wondering, like I felt
like it was right around thattime.
Yeah, I watched a documentaryon Jim Henson, also on Disney+
A-plus recommend, which it'sinteresting.
It showed a lot about howHenson was really into just
doing weird stuff on film andlike he got into puppets not
because he necessarily lovedpuppets, because he liked doing
weird stuff.
And then it all sort ofsnowballed into the dynasty that
it is.

(33:51):
But if you think about themovies that he was really behind
ahead of time Labyrinth andBlack Crystal and stuff that are
weird and didn't do greatcommercially Part of why he sold
things over to Disney was thathe'd been working nonstop for
all these years.
He recorded Sesame Street andthe Muppet show at the same time

(34:11):
, on separate continents.
He would fly into new york anddo sesame street and then fly to
london to do muppet show andback and forth for like years.
So his health was bad.
He was just done and he sold itover to them and I'm interested
what that first collaborationwould have looked like if he
hadn't died.
Yeah, and then brian took itover and what pressure this

(34:33):
must've been for Brian Henson tolike have the legacy for his
dad, and the documentary showeda lot of like him always trying
to prove himself to his dad.
It did not quite go in great.
So there's all that baggage.
This is an interesting choicefor our first collaboration and,
I think, a really successfulone.
I think they still kept some ofthe muppety stuff that you'd
want, but it also really changedthe trajectory of how muppets

(34:56):
tell stories from here on out.
If you think about it like, uh,there was a, um, it became more
, these muppets which werealways kind of subversive and
weird.
It was like how can we makethem fit into this mainstream
thing?
I think really successfully here, I think not so successfully in
other things.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
Yeah.
Well, talk about subversive,like the way that they frame
this so, where Rizzo is actuallysaying you're not Charles
Dickens, you're Gonzo, yeah andlike, and then ending with it
being like no, this is a set andwe're telling a story, yeah,
and so I love that kind ofsubversion.

(35:36):
I mean, some of it is just, Ilove meta storytelling in
general, but I think it's alsoreally cool because you don't
necessarily see that as oftenfor kids and it's right in line
with um, there's a monster atthe end of this book, yeah, um,

(35:56):
it's the same kind of subversionand one of the reasons why
tracy and I love that book somuch was because it wasn't
talking down to us.
It was like look we, we knowthat you have to suspend your
disbelief and so like, but joinus and it'll be fun it's a.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
It's a, it's an extra layer.
It's like a dramatic irony, butlike also a meta commentary on
what it is the storytelling is.

Speaker 3 (36:26):
You know, it's, yeah, it's it's pretty cool, um and
like.
It's curious why you don't seethat more often in children's
entertainment, because it doesgive that kind of like that um
necessary distance to be able tohandle yeah, handle like over

(36:47):
emotional things that could betriggering for kids.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Thematically.
This is such an interestingmeta choice.
You know, brian Henson isdealing with his dad's death and
the legacy he's leaving behind,and Muppets brought such love
and joy to everybody.
And then you're turning it overto this corporation and the
story of Christmas Carol is, inpart, a critique on the cruelty

(37:12):
of a society that only caresabout money.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
So it's an interesting choice.
It started like part of why itwas such a successful enterprise
was because Walt did tap into adegree of wonder and power of
storytelling, right.
I mean I think that thattreating animation as a true art
form is something that Walt andJim had in common, something

(37:55):
that Walt and Jim had in commonand so like what it had become
by the 90s, like sure, likecommercialized and like all
about the merchandising andthings, but also like there's a
core of like solid storytellingand taking what was other in
some ways considered like achildish um media.
I mean not because when Waltwas making snow white it was
like an unknown media, yeah, butstill um and scary like they

(38:17):
went for it yeah, they went forit.
They really went for it, andthey treated it as a true art
form and and and and.
We're pushing the bounds ofwhat this new media medium could
do as a storytelling vehicle,which is is exactly what Jim
Henson did with puppets.
So like, yes, I totally see theirony and like the like um

(38:42):
dissonance, and also I I see theresonance as well.

Speaker 3 (38:48):
Well, there's also that.
The fact that cause I mean wewe started off talking about how
Michael Caine understood theassignment and like it would
have been very easy for an actorto phone it in, because I'm
acting against felt yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
So actually this was something I wanted to bring up.
That's a common thing whenpeople say what makes this movie
work is that Michael Cainetakes it seriously and he's
playing it straight.
And what I have been realizingmore and more the petroleum time
I've watched this movie, isthat the Muppets are doing the
same thing In other movies.
They have been versions ofthemselves.

(39:25):
I'm Kermit, I'm going to get ashow on Broadway.
I'm Kermit, I'm trying to goout to Hollywood.
You know it's these characterswe know doing things, and in
this one it is kermit as bobcratchit, full stop.
The rizzo gets to be theanimated character the sorry,
not animated the muppetycharacter that rizzo always is.

(39:45):
But everyone else is putting onthe dickens character in a way
that the muppets I don't thinkreally did before yeah this um,
and I really see that keenlywith gonzo, who's a chaos muppet
right, who is like and notespecially smart in the right no
, you know always just trying todo crazy things that are going

(40:07):
to blow him up and everything,and and you know the scene that
you remembered, where rizzo goesunder the thing to get the
jelly beans and he's like youcould go under there the whole
time.
Um, so the full thing is that,uh, they're trying to get in to
the house to watch what'shappening with Scrooge and you
see it, uh cuts to them andRizzo's on top of the fence and
he goes.
I'm only scared of two thingsheights and falling from them.

(40:30):
Um, and then, of course, hefalls and, uh, they're like are
you okay?
And he goes oh, I left my jellybeans on the other side.
And he crawls under the fenceto get the jelly beans and he
crawls back and, uh, gonzo, ascharles dickens turns and goes,
you're an idiot.
And last night, when I wasre-watching this, I was, like,
everyone's always telling gonzohe's an idiot.

(40:50):
And here he's, he's absolutelyplaying this role of this
intelligent, eloquent,omniscient, like all knowing guy
.
It's wild, that's interesting.
Yeah, so I absolutely.
Michael Caine understood theassignment and is brilliant.
And also, he was like inmid-60s at this point and he

(41:10):
looks really good for a mid-60s.
I had to do math yesterday.
I would not have guessed he wasin his mid-60s because I've seen
him on more recent stuff and helooks older and I was like, oh,
baby, michael kane.
And then I looked up but I waslike dang, someone puts on
sunscreen.
So absolutely, he makes thiswork like it's good, but I also

(41:34):
think that's sort of what themuppets are doing, too like
they're.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
The way they're using them is in a different way well
, and I I think like kind of ameta examination again, like
this is brian henson putting hisown mark on the Muppets.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
So he's taking them in a different direction.
That is pretty much universallybeloved.
I mean, everyone loves MuppetChristmas Carol.
Some of the Muppet movies areforgettable or people don't
necessarily rewatch or anythinglike that, but this one is one
everyone loves.
But this one is one likeeveryone loves and that's like

(42:13):
even though he's taking over hisfather's legacy, he's still
doing his own thing with it,which is pretty cool.
I cannot imagine growing upwith someone like Jim Henson as
your father.
Like that's got to be sooverwhelming and intimidating.
Truly watch the documentary.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
It's fascinating and, um, if you, if you love the
muppets and watch the show overand over again on syndication
and such like, you really shouldwatch the documentary yeah,
yeah, it's very, very good.
Um, I wanted to talk a littlebit about pigs as riches pigs as
rich bitches.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Let's do it, yeah, so casting.

Speaker 1 (42:48):
So casting is important, like they I mean
Fozzie is Fezziwig is fairlyobvious, but the rest they did
like really understandablecasting for things.
You know, obviously Kermit'sBob Cratchit and Robin is Tiny,
tim is brilliant, all thesethings.
And then pigs are not alwaysrich, horrible people.

(43:09):
Miss Piggy is fine, you knowthere are other pigs on the
street who are doing great, butanytime it's a horrible rich
person saying a really bad thingabout scrooge or about a poor
person on the street.
It's a pig in a monocle with ayou know fancy hat and I just
keep thinking animal farm, likethat weird, like I feel like
that can't be a co-ent.

(43:29):
Like someone made a reallystrong choice.

Speaker 2 (43:32):
I feel like it's in the zeitgeist too.
I'm thinking about that song onthe White Album.
Have you seen the littlepiggies in their starched white
shirts?

Speaker 3 (43:45):
It's a.
Thing.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Joe the Spider collecting the stuff.
I looked at all the animals.
There were creepy insects thatjust like take, like the pigs,
as rich bitches.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
So one thing that I think is interesting though, to
bring into.
That is so Dickens was veryanti-Semitic, which was typical
for the time.
It was period typical.
A spider as like um offense,basically, you know, is, you
know, getting stolen goods?

(44:19):
Uh, there are anti-semitictropes about, uh, jews as
spiders where you really yeah,yeah, um, and so like I I am not
in any way like holding thismovie accountable or anything
for that, but I think thatthat's interesting Like and I'll
include some of the show notesthere are images of like

(44:42):
political cartoons, I guessyou'd call it of a Jewish person
as a spider and having to dowith like money lending and then
also having to do with havingtheir, their, their fingers in
every pie, so like they'recontrolling everything.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
I really want to go back to the book now and see how
that character is coded yeah,so that is a choice, yeah his
name is his name is joe yeah andis that?
In the movie I'm not sure in Ihaven't read the Dickens in a
while.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
In the Dickens, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
So that's something that I think is an interesting
aspect of it, and then that alsobrings in the fact that the
kind of evil rich people arepigs, which I don't think that
that ever is an anti-Semiticcoded thing, tracy, do you know?
Because I mean it's not kosher,will not?
I don't know, I don't know,certainly nothing is coming to
mind.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
yeah my main reference is like uh, captains
of industry, and you know copsand like people who have power
in the, in the system?
Yeah, for sure rich.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
But but rich people is often quoted that way yeah,
and then and then.
Anti-semitism would claim thatall jews are rich so there it's,
it's not a.
I mean, it makes sense that youwould ask the question.
I'm not aware of it, but thatdoesn't certainly not a, you
know, comprehensive encyclopediaover here and this does kind of

(46:11):
circle me back to when Ireferenced you.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
You know I was talking about this in sermons
and stuff that it's a reallyspecific Protestant Christian
way of looking at things that ifyou are a good person, you
share and you love and then itall works out, was a really big
idea at this time.
And um in with the poor housesand the prisons.

(46:36):
Dickens points out the travestyof that in most of his books and
he had life experience in thatright that he had family in the
poor house and they lost theirhome and a lot of his books
about like stay out of debtbecause that's bad news bears
and this system is corrupt andawful.
And I think for him that wouldbe linked that if you are this
good church of england personthat you can't, you can't

(46:59):
condone this thing that ishappening and I think he uses
this story to do that.
You don't.
You don't have to have that tolike read the story and
certainly now what we're goingthrough with oligarchs and
income inequality and all thatstuff.
It hits right and withoutneeding that specifically, but I
do believe dickens had that andthe muppets by staying so true

(47:24):
to the dickens, I think it makessense why all these priests are
like let's talk about muppetchristmas carol in our sermon,
like I think it really um it's,it's in this movie a little bit
so, um, one question I have foryou is, because this is the
story is a redemption arc forfor ebony or scrooge?

Speaker 3 (47:42):
um, what is that?
Like the, the, your faithtradition, or that dickens is
trying to say because he's, he's, like, it's very much an
indictment of the system, andscrooge is both a victim of the
system but also a perpetuator ofit.
What is?
Is there something within thatabout what?
Uh, what is required forredemption?

Speaker 1 (48:04):
so, uh, it is facing your own, it is dying to
yourself.
So facing your own coffin is apretty not subtle way to do that
.
And then it is that rebirth andresurrection that comes in the
morning.
It's really kind of an Easter-ystory more than a.
Christmas-y one.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
That's blowing my mind a little bit, honestly,
that he sees the grave and thenwakes up the next morning like I
reborn I, I I've never put thatlike specific point on it,
obviously it's.
You say it and I'm like duhtrace, obviously that's what's
happening, super there.
Uh, jewish commentator overhere didn't see it.

(48:52):
Wow, that's wow.
I think emily was going to askyou to also put a finer point on
dying to yourself.

Speaker 3 (48:58):
Explain what dying to yourself means, oh and keep it
snappy.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Keep it snappy.
I mean, this is theconversation people always have.
Does it mean we have toliterally die?
Does it mean that we give upeverything of what we are and
give everything away and liveout in the desert?
Does it mean, like everyone'shad their own way of?
But that's something that Jesussays, that if you, if you die
to yourself, you will be reborn.
That the last will be first,that it's a flipping of how you

(49:28):
think things happen to me, andin the Easter story specifically
, there's the death on the crossand then burial and then
resurrection.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
Okay.
So it's kind of like I'm takingit as this metaphorical death
of your ego, so that you're ableto face outward and like do do
good outward rather than umworry about yourself so much.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Yeah, what's?
What's coming up a lot now intheology stuff is the idea that,
uh, if you are baptized intothe body of Christ, you are part
of this collective thing andthat, when you were only looking
out for yourself as anindividual, that you are not
participating in that and our,our rebirth and resurrection and
everlasting life is in that.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
So church with erica yeah, this, this muppet
conversation, like I got weird.
I mean it's kind of on brandfor the muppets that it gets
weird, but like I did not seethis one coming clear, that I
don't think brian henson meantit to be a Christian allegory.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
I don't think it's necessarily and Dickens kind of
did yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:42):
Wow, I knew that Dickens was Christian in the way
that I know that 19th centurywriters in England were
Christian unless they wereotherwise.

Speaker 1 (50:55):
So fun fact if you were born in England, you're
automatically a member of theChurch of England.
That's why they have thelargest, even if you don't go
Wow.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
So even the Jews born in Britain.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
They could claim membership in the Church of
England.
Oh cool, if you want to, if youwant to, and almost no one goes
to church.
It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
So it's fascinating, so it's like it's like it's
really interesting, so like,like, bringing the episcopal
priest on to talk about thislike makes sense.
So we kind of went there, um andalso, um, like what you were
just starting to say, um and andand what you have said, erica,
like brian henson didn't mean itthis way, dickens did it't?
It doesn't matter, kind of like,in some ways, like sort of that

(51:36):
resurrection, as like a trope,as like a thing as a narrative
device, happens, sure, and Ithink that's more what, like is
blowing my mind that I hadn'tseen it because it's, even if,
even if it's not intentionallyChristian, right, the idea of
death and resurrection becauseof the influence of christianity
on our culture is everywhere.

(51:59):
Yeah, um, I just didn't, I'venever seen it with the christmas
carol, it's so obvious, uh, so,anyway, and and it sounds to me
like maybe dickens really didmean it, like in a in a in a in
a religious sense, that whathappens to scrooge is a
religious redemption arc yeah,and for him that would have been

(52:20):
the same thing as how you arein society, like if you are a
good, civic, moral britishcitizen, then you also are a
good christian, so you act thesame yeah, it's the same in the
pew as you do on the street yeah, um, if you go in the pew, yeah
, um, no, I mean like maybe youdon't need to go to the pew

(52:40):
because, because, you are a goodperson on the street.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
You just bring a raw turkey to you and then you yeah,
yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
okay, I'm looking at time.
We've been talking for a minute.
Erica, you mentioned a Bechdelmoment, okay.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
I can argue this both ways.
So I'm very interested in yourhouse perspective.
When Bob Cratchit and Tiny Timare walking home to the Fabulous
Song Miss Piggy, as EmilyCratchit is making the dinner in
the house and she is caught atthe stove eating the roasted
chestnuts and her daughter,brigitte, goes mother, mother,
you, you said you weren't goingto eat those chestnuts until

(53:19):
father came home.
And she goes I am just tastetesting them.
That's what a good cook does.
It's about the chestnuts.
They both have names.
No, no, kermit is not in theroom and the reference point is
till your father gets homethat's an interesting one.

Speaker 2 (53:37):
Yeah, I mean the way I understand alice and bechdel's
tests like the right.
So, listeners, remember, wehave at least two named female
characters.
They talk to one another, andthey talk to one another about
something other than a boy.
I think the actual subject ofthat conversation was the
chestnuts.
That's where I'm going to landon this one.

Speaker 1 (53:56):
Especially three named characters because they're
twin girls.
It's Brigitte and Brigitte orsomething like that.
Okay.

Speaker 3 (54:06):
Yeah, I'll allow it If she had said like you're
saving those chestnuts forfather Agreed, it's the same
thing as like two o'clock.
Yeah, yeah, it's like it's atime rather than they're for him
.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
I agree, I agree so hang on, I'm gonna, I'm down
myself and I my husband, I mayor may not have like re
rewatched that a couple times,arguing about it last night.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
I'll tell him what you all came down to Neither
confirm nor deny.
Oh man, all right, erica,before I see if I can kind of
reflect back what we talkedabout, is there something you
need to?
One more thing, and it's supershort.
Let's hear it.

Speaker 1 (54:48):
Let's hear it.
One of the things I learned inthe documentary about Jim Henson
was that he was reallyinterested in computers and the
3D animation that was startingto be possible, like Toy Story
and that sort of stuff, and hisstudio was starting to fund
research into that, such thatwhen I first saw the movie and I
saw the doorknob using the samemorph technology as the Michael
Jackson video Do you rememberthat the doorknob turns into the

(55:12):
face I was like oh, oh man,puppets are supposed to be
practical.
You know they're selling out.
And after watching thisdocumentary I'm like actually I
think jim henson would have beenreally down with that.
Like that he cared about thestorytelling on film.
He wasn't necessarily a puppetguy first, which is weird for me
to wrap my mind around cool.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Yeah, I'm glad you got that in, because you did
mention a couple times in yoursynopsis about what was
practical and then that onemoment that wasn't yeah, okay,
so let me see if I can.
There's a lot.
I'll do my best.

(55:51):
But you say so.
This was the firstcollaboration with the Disney
folks, which is reallyinteresting, and so we see this
film that's in some ways verytrue to the Dickens, despite
being Muppets, like kind of metathings in the arc of the

(56:15):
Muppets that I think are thatyou pointed out, that are really
interesting, that maybe make itwork, or that this, unlike many
Muppet movies, where Kermit isKermit and he like runs a
theater and now he's going totake his show on the road,
kermit is an actor in this moviehe is not and he's not playing
himself, he is playing BobCratchit and that's it, we're
done.
Kermit is playing Bob Cratchitand that kind of use of the

(56:38):
Muppets in that way is new andalso I think maybe we see a
little bit more of it movingforward possibly, but here it's
unusual for the Muppets and it'salso baked into that is this
really interesting kind of metaframing that we see, where

(56:58):
that's not just the case thatKermit is playing Bob Cratchit
but Rizzo and Gonzo say to usthe audience directly hey, y'all
, it's us, but we're playingcharacters, which is really
pretty cool.
I don't know why that delightsme as much as it does, but it
really really delights me thatthe sort of breaking of the

(57:20):
fourth wall, not just to breakthe fourth wall and be like, hey
, isn't this cool, but like, bythe way, kids, it's your lovable
friend Grover, not Grover Gonzo, it's your lovable friend Gonzo
, but I'm not Gonzo, I'mpretending to be Charles Dickens
and, look, I'm Charles Dickens.
And then we have theomniscience where like, and we

(57:40):
get to be sort of Rizzo, gets tobe proxy for us a little bit,
but also not like I don't knowthere's something like just
really delightful in all thelayers of that.
So that was something that was.
It was sort of interesting.
There was there's.
You took time to kind of mentionsome of the really like and we
came back to it just now so thereally like beautiful practical
elements of the um, penguins,ice skating, and like various

(58:07):
like Kermit and um and and Robinor excuse me, bob, and Tiny Tim
, sort of like wandering downthe street, which was pretty
cool, those practical elementsand then we came back to the end
, at the very end you just alsonamed.
There is at least one momentthat is not.
That is CGI, assisted with likesort of a morph technology that

(58:28):
in some ways feels anathema tothe whole Muppet experiment,
which is all based in thepractical.
That's part of the wonder iswhat they're able to do with
puppets.
And because Henson was sort of,what can we do, like, how can
we push this media of film,medium of film, further to do

(58:50):
amazing things?
Maybe isn't so anathema, maybe,maybe, uh, jim himself would
have been chuffed, as they sayin Great Britain.
Um, so, uh, one of the thingsthat, like I did not foresee
when we sat down together, uh,is the ways in which this film

(59:11):
is important in sort of thinkingabout Episcopalian and Church
of England theology, which, like, uh, what, um, but yeah, cool,
because Dickens, like it wasimportant to him and so and he
was a great writer and so helike built into his stories like
an accessible way to talk aboutsome theological concepts, in

(59:31):
so far as, like you know, be agood person and you'll be a good
Christian.
Like, share love, shareresources.
Things will work out if you dothose things Like.
That's a fundamental kind oftheological understanding of the
cosmology and how God works andhow reward works in this life

(59:52):
that Dickens bought into andbaked into Christmas Carol,
which then became accessible forgenerations, not notably Gen X
and millennial, but also movingforward.
So of course the Church ofEngland and Episcopalians use it
in their sermons to talk about,like sharing resources and love

(01:00:14):
and things working out.
So my mind is blown and also,like, of course, on that same
score, my mind is blown in, ofcourse Scrooge dies to himself
per Jesus's instructions byseeing his own grave and then is
resurrected when he wakes upand they did it all in a night

(01:00:38):
and it's Christmas morning andhe hasn't missed Christmas
morning and Michael Caine sellsthe heck out of it and I believe
it and yay.
And he takes a raw Turkey to theCratchit's house which Erica
points out is really rude to theCratchits' house, which Erica

(01:00:59):
points out is really rude.
So that's, yeah, amazing, likeagain, the resurrection trope
whether we sort of are reallydigging into the theology of it
or not like it's out there inWestern culture and it's in
there in Christmas Carol andthereby a Muppets Christmas
Carol and okay, trace there itis, um, another thing that I

(01:01:19):
just totally had no idea.
I even, kind of embarrassed tosay, kind of forgot that it was
a musical, because it's been solong since I saw it.
Uh, eric was making a face ifyou're not watching, yeah, um,
and so this missing song, whichwas, is really important, like
in terms of, um, there's,there's echoes of it, from love

(01:01:42):
being lost to love being found,but disney execs were like
boring and cut it in the theaterrelease not because of the
nostrils I really did and memorybeing what it is.

(01:02:03):
This is so beautiful.
Erica remembers watching it inthe theater, even though it was
not in the theatrical release,which I really, really love, and
the whole nostril thing, likeone imagines, like driving it,
being able to drive a truckthrough this poor singer's
nostrils up on the big screen,even though they never were so.

(01:02:23):
Wow, um, cool, we did.
We spent a brief moment talkingabout bechdel test in this
movie.
It arguably passes, um, becauseMiss Piggy talks to her
daughter about chestnuts thatshe wasn't gonna eat until her,
until her husband came home.
So it's arguable.

(01:02:45):
But the guy girls landed on apass.
And what am I forgetting?

Speaker 3 (01:02:51):
Those are the things I remember the filmmakers to
actually give some truly scarymoments without losing the
little kids watching Like.

(01:03:17):
It gives them the ability tostay with the film even when
it's scary, because they knowthat it's going to be okay,
because they have Gonzo andRizzo walking them through,
letting them know there's goingto be a happy ending.

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Right, right.
And the fourth wall breakingthat Erica named there, where
Gonzo and Rizzo say this part'sgoing to be a happy ending,
right, right.
And the fourth wall breakingthat Erica named there, where
Gonzo and Rizzo say this part'sgoing to get scary, but we'll
see you again at the finale,thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
We talked briefly about casting choices for pigs
as capitalist terrible people.

Speaker 2 (01:03:46):
And I learned about the spider stereotype, which I'm
aghast at and grateful to knowwhich I'm aghast at and grateful
to know, the spiderantisemitism trope that we don't
have enough information to sayfor sure if that was a thing
that Dickens was doingconsciously or unconsciously, if
the spider codes as Jewish fromthe original, or the character

(01:04:10):
who becomes the spider, yeahCool, all right anything else I
forgot you everyone should watchthe jim henson documentary on
disney plus, if you, if youwatch sesame street, if you love
muppets, it's really great cooljim henson documentary on
disney plus.
Oh, also two versions of thismovie available on dis Plus.

(01:04:33):
Make sure you get the one thathas the song from Belle, who was
Ebeneezer's love.

Speaker 1 (01:04:41):
Actually, because I feel so bad for this singer, I
want to name her name.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Absolutely.
Her name's Meredith Brun, and Ido feel really bad for her that
she had this huge, amazing songin a feature release that was
then cut Like that's terrible.
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:57):
Meredith Brunn, you know we really feel for you, and
folks listeners watch the onewhere she gets to sing.
Let's give Meredith her day inour living rooms, since she
didn't get it in the theaters,All right.
Well, Erica, always lovely tobe with you.
Thank you so much for coming onand for bringing your wisdom

(01:05:19):
and your spirit.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Thank you for letting me crash the party.
I am just so tickled.
This has been great, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
And I'm bringing you next week, I'm bringing you my
deep thoughts on when Harry MetSally.
Oh yes, because I think of thatas a New Year's movie.
So I figured, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
All right, can't wait .
See you then, bye, bye.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom, slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy, butdon't wait, there's a limited
quantity.
Thanks for listening.

(01:05:56):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
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Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?

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