December 17, 2024 • 61 mins
That's U.S., not you ass!
The Guy girls remember the 1982 Richard Pryor film The Toy with a great deal of fondness, in part because it was on heavy rotation in the Guy household through their childhood. But a film about a billionaire’s young son “purchasing” a black man to be his toy for the week has some pretty chilling implications that the movie itself doesn’t do enough to acknowledge.
In this week’s episode, Tracie shares how rewatching this movie in 2024 is both better and worse than she expected. It’s better because Richard Pryor is a delightful and talented center for the movie. And it’s worse because the film lets the villainous U.S. Bates, played by Jackie Gleason, get away with truly reprehensible behavior without real consequence and gives him a happy ending that he doesn’t earn. While the film is an indictment of capitalism, it also reinforces the idea that being nice to oppressors is how to secure human rights.
Take a listen–just beware the piranhas!
Mentioned in this episode:
The commentator who led to Tracie’s “fractal” insight
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Like in some ways it's delightful because Richard
Pryor is delightful, like he'sjust I remember really, really
liking him in this movie.
What others might deem stupidshit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the guy
(00:20):
girls.
Every week, we take turnsrewatching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
(00:41):
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to deep thoughtss
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll bebringing my deep thoughts about
the 1982 Richard Pryor film theToy to my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and to you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, so I know you've seenthis film because it was on
(01:05):
heavy rotation when we were kids, but tell me, what do you
remember about the toy?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So there's a couple things I remember.
I remember that his last nameis Bates, because they call him
Master Bates.
I remember that which I didn'tget at the time.
I was just re-watching it fortoday and and they say it, and
Richard Pryor laughs and I waslike oh, I don't think I would
(01:33):
have remembered, except thatthere was a teacher when I was
in high school whose last namewas Baton, and so the kids would
call him Master Baton insteadof Mr Baton Got it, and I think
that's the only reason why it'sthere.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I didn't know why it was funny when it was in heavy
rotation.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
So I didn't at the time either.
So I remember that.
I remember his dad's name is US, yes, and so with the southern
accent it sounds like US.
I remember him driving in ago-kart or something like that,
chasing after Richard Pryor.
The little boy is played by thesame kid who played Flick in
(02:23):
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Story Scott.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Schwartz.
Yes, scott Schwartz.
Yes, and my knowledge ofpiranhas came from this movie.
Me too.
I think so, me too.
And then I believe this iswhere I learned the word
litigious, because there's apoint where Richard Pryor says
to US and is he played by Jackie?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Gleason, us, is Jackie Gleason.
Richard Pryor says it actually,though to Ned Beatty's.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Mr Morehouse, yes, that his wife or girlfriend,
wife.
Wife is very litigious, yeah,litigious, yeah, um, and I know,
like I the the idea of this,the, the conceit of the film,
(03:13):
which is this very spoiledlittle boy is taken to a toy
store where richard pryor isworking and said he can pick out
anything he wants and he picksout.
Richard pryor is reallyworrisome like, and I, I, I feel
like dad talked to us about ita little bit, but I don't know
for sure yeah, so, um that, andthere was a story about
(03:36):
propellers on the very, uh, likethe blonde bombshell on on her,
on her, um, her uniform at herat when she was a waitress, yeah
.
So those are just moments that.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, so tell me, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah.
So, as I said, it was in heavyrotation and since you know,
thinking about lessons aboutrace in popular culture is one
of the things that we do here,you know it was on the list and
I was like, oh yeah, let's checkthat out, and I knew it would
be problematic.
(04:19):
I knew, you know, just in mymemory it is, and, yeah, I was
right, I was right.
You know, just in my memory itis um, and uh, yeah, I was right
, I was right.
It's funny, it's, it's both.
It was both better and wayworse than I, than I remembered.
So so that's kind ofinteresting.
Um, so a couple of things, andthen I'll do a synopsis, um,
that put this in sort of contextwith other deep thoughts,
(04:42):
episodes.
So the story was by by FrancisWeber, who's the same French
screenwriter and director orwhatever who wrote the Birdcage,
and it's directed by RichardDonner, who's the same director
as the Goonies.
So, yeah, so the toy was 1982,1982, and then goonies, I think
(05:05):
was a year or two later.
So donner moved from the toy togoonies.
So those are sort ofinteresting things.
The original french version ofthe toy, the richard pryor
character was white also, andthe rich family was white and so
Richard Pryor's identity reallychanged some of what is
(05:30):
happening in the story.
And setting it in America andyou switch something out, it
gives it different meaning thanwriting a new story would have.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so like part of what I remember was that this
was like that Richard Pryor didthis film, in part because it
gave it was a vehicle fortalking about racism.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I don't know if that's true or not.
Um, I don't know, maybe, butthere are those who feel like
this there was like a meta thingwhere this is actually sort of
the example of him being used bywhite Hollywood.
Um, anyway, we'll get into that.
So I we have to, we have totalk about race.
(06:28):
Uh, when we talk about thisfilm, I also do want to talk
about gender and class.
Um, I want to talk about likesort of the storytelling trips
and like the magical negro andthe racism around magical negro,
because I think that priorsjack is a little bit of that in
this film and the ways in whichit was about race but also
(06:48):
really like whitewashed racism.
So that'll probably fill ourtime, but we'll see what comes
up.
But let me give a quick synopsis, and it really can be pretty
quick, because there's a lot oflike hijinks, but those will
come up in conversation, butdon't matter, for like the plot.
The plot is as you say.
(07:09):
We meet Jack.
What's Jack's last name?
Jack Brown.
We meet Jack Brown, richardPryor's character, who's an
out-of-work writer andjournalist and he's been out of
work for so long that it'salmost like become the
profession of work writer andjournalist and he's been out of
work for so long that it'salmost like become the
profession.
And we learned that he's in,he's in danger of losing his
house because, because they haveno money and they just he just
(07:32):
cannot get a job, and so hedecides to just take whatever he
can.
So in fact, he takes a job as acleaning lady lady, uh, for the
Bates group, um, and they puthim in a french, like a maid's
outfit, like a black dress withthe apron, um, and say, oh for
fuck's sake about that, oh foryes sake yeah, what the fuck
(07:56):
uh-huhuh-huh and then, um, he gets
fired from that.
Ultimately, I mean, somethinghappens, but ultimately it's
because Jackie Gleason's USBates is just horrible and like
does things that are ridiculousand Jack like tries to like
(08:18):
adjust for the other people inthe room and ends up like
pissing off Mr Bates.
So he gets fired from that jobas the cleaning lady but then
ends up we see him, he's servingas janitor in a department
store, also owned by Mr Bates,where young Eric Bates is home,
is visiting his father for aweek from like whatever military
(08:40):
school he goes to and is tolddad told him he can have
anything in the store that hewants.
And, um, richard pryor is um,jack jack is is like goofing off
while he's cleaning.
And uh, eric decides that'sthat's what he wants and he says
I want the black man.
Like the child actually saysthose words.
(09:03):
And, um, we know jack needsmoney.
And so we see the yes, men whowork for Bates like putting a
hundred dollar bills into hishand until he's like, well, I
guess we could talk about it.
So he's sent to the Bates'smansion in a crate, um, and then
(09:26):
you know, he keeps saying like,no, this is nuts, I'm not doing
this and sort of walking awayand they keep throwing more
money at him.
So, um, eric is like a littleshit and he's got a German tutor
(09:59):
nanny who is like watchingHitler speeches in her room and
like throws herself at him.
She's like I can't believe youwould push yourself in here,
which also really is verydifferent with, like, a white
lady making false accusationsagainst a black man.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Let's come back to that oh, look those of you who
are just listening.
I've been sitting here with mymouth open since you mentioned
the hitler speeches like oh mygod, yeah so we meet the um
trophy wife, much younger,voluptuous blonde, played by
(10:34):
theresa ganzel.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Her name is fancy, fancy baits, and she's like oh,
what do I have to do with ericnow?
And and Eric just wants tospend time with his dad.
Anyway, there's a whole bunchof shit that happens, with Eric
pulling pranks on um Jack andJack being like no, I'm not
doing this anymore, and whatever.
(10:58):
But he keeps being convincedand and he actually leaves.
He actually leaves after he'sbeen humiliated, he leaves the
house and Bates sends more houseNed Beatty to his house and
gives him a check for $10,000,which in today's dollars is like
(11:18):
almost 40 grand, it's like$38,000.
And it's the exact amount thatthey need to save the house
$38,000.
And it's the exact amount thatthey need to save the house.
So he comes back and again morepranking from the kid.
(11:39):
But then they come to anunderstanding because all the
kid really needed was someone tosit him down and explain to him
that you earn friends, youdon't buy them.
Him down and explain to himthat friends you, you earn
friends, you don't buy them.
The scene with the piranha jackand eric are going fishing.
Eric explains how dad broughtsome piranha up to this watering
(11:59):
hole to keep the hoi polloi out.
That's the word er Eric uses.
And Jack's like I don't believeyou.
There are no piranha here.
Piranha are in South America,there are no piranha here.
And so he wades into the waterand then does the sort of sped
up film running on water thinglike ridiculousness, and then
has holes all over his clothesbecause there are in fact
piranha.
And then they run into MrMorehouse, who is Ned Beatty's
(12:25):
character, who's like the Idon't know, one of the key top
yes, men in Bates's organizationand he's drunk and fishing
because he's upset.
He had to fire somebody becausethe man has very sweaty hands
and every time he shook handswith Mr Bates he had very sweaty
hands.
And so Mr Bates insisted thathe be canned and um Beatty's
more houses distraught becausehe was a good guy and he hasa
(12:48):
family and he's a father andhe's a husband and and so we
start to see Eric witness theeffect his dad has on other
people out there.
Jack and Eric decide to puttogether a newspaper.
Jack is an out of work reporter, remember.
Bates owns a newspaper whereJack has been trying to get a
(13:09):
job for over a year and beenunsuccessful.
So they're going to puttogether a newspaper, um, and
it's basically going to exposethe dad for all of the terrible
things that he's done.
They interview Fancy.
Oh, for the paper.
They take a picture of aportrait of her.
That's in Bates' office thatthere's a button that you press
(13:33):
and her dress comes off andshe's naked.
They don't do the naked picturein there, but that's a moment.
And to the interview like thebutler and the interview,
actually the woman who was thein charge, Mr Bates, confronts
them and is like how manynewspapers did you distribute?
(14:12):
He tells Morehouse that hewants all of them accounted for
and shredded.
And then he says Eric sayssomething like it's the truth.
Says Eric says something likeit's the truth and Bates is like
let me tell you something, I'mthe truth.
And he like makes Morehousetake his pants down.
Uh, if he values his job andjust like, anyway, it's gross.
(14:36):
So Bates offers prior, uh,bates offers Jack a job as a
reporter in the newspaper,basically like to own him, I
guess.
And he needs a job.
(14:58):
And so he accepts.
And Eric is like you can't dothat.
He's going to make you takeyour pants down and you're like
whatever, and um, and we thinkthat that's where it ends.
But then the next day we seethere's a big party at the
mansion and we learn that it isto get a S, a Senator and the
(15:24):
grand wizard of the KKK in aphoto op.
The Senator does not know theidentity of the KKK guy and we
see Bates say to each of themlike in quick succession if they
all knew this was a fundraiser,they wouldn't be here.
(15:44):
So he's playing them.
Jack's wife has shown up.
She's the head of a groupcalled clan watch and she's
shown up to like protest this.
And he's like go home, I've gotthis, just trust me.
So then he Jack and Eric in thego-kart and a dirt bike, like
(16:06):
destroy the party, tell thesenator who the guy is that he's
having his picture taken withand just like run amok in this
party.
Bates gets really mad, gets ina golf cart, is chasing them,
ends up in the swimming pool.
At the bottom of the swimmingpool, eric's freaking out
because dad's like not coming up.
(16:26):
Jack saves his life.
And then the next day like it'sthe end of the week, so Jack has
gone home and Eric is meant togo back to military school.
Meanwhile Jack and Mr Bateshave had a conversation where
jack is like just talk to him,like just be there for him.
(16:49):
You can't like because, becausebates feels some kind of way
about the fact that eric seemsto really care for this man in a
way that he doesn't care forthat himself.
So we see in the car, uh, youknow, in the, in the Rolls Royce
limo, uh, dad is like tryingkinda, they get to the airport
(17:16):
and Eric just runs away, takes acab to Jack's house and Jack's
like no, you can't, you can't behere, like you need to go home.
He's trying.
And then dad shows up a fewminutes later and meanwhile
prior has said uh, jack has saidlike I've never seen two people
need each other the way you andyour dad need each other.
And, um, so Eric runs to dad,gives him a hug.
(17:43):
Mr Bates says next year, twoweeks, one week for me, one week
for you, jack.
Eric's excited about that.
Um, mr Bates says you know Iwas serious about that job, if
you want it.
Uh, jack says thanks, you ass.
And uh, us says you're entitledto call me you ass.
(18:04):
You're the only one, becausewe've heard that earlier.
He says it's US, not US.
And then the final gag is thatanother rich white lady shows up
and says Fancy, told me what agreat job you did with their boy
.
Can you spend some time with myson, who's another horrible
brat?
And then it's the end.
(18:24):
So there's more details inthere, but that's the story arc
and so like watching this now,like in some ways it's
delightful, because RichardPryor is delightful, like he's
just I remember really, reallyliking him in this movie.
(18:47):
He's just really wonderful, he,he has this, um, he does this
thing where, when he's likehaving big feelings where he's
not actually saying any words,it's just sort of expressing in
these like emotions, not wordwords, like that is like so
(19:13):
funny, it's just, it's just realand hilarious and like charming
.
And we get a lot of that.
He does that a lot.
Um, and you know the like cue,the you know heartfelt music
(19:33):
underneath the conversationsabout what it means to be a real
friend and and and even likeabout love and and relationships
.
You know, because Eric's likeasking about like and sex and
stuff and which, by the way, thecharacter says like what do you
do with your thing?
(19:53):
And jack's like, don't worryabout your thing, you'll figure
that out when it's time.
Well, it turns out, scottschwartz is a porn star, so I
guess he figured out what to dowith this thing.
My, oh my.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Oh my, oh my, oh my.
One of the things that I Iremember taking away from this
was that the film does give Jacka sense of dignity.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Sort of Sort of Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think that's exactly it, sort of so like but
I, you know, as you'redescribing it, what I'm, what I
am sitting here thinking, islike, well, this is like, this
is a, an indictment of latestage capitalism in so many ways
.
But sort of cause, we're, we're, we're, we get to enjoy this.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think, when looked at with
sort of that meta lens, it'sthat's when I, that's when it's
so much worse.
Right, because I think part ofthe thing is that.
Right, because I think part ofthe thing is that there's
(21:16):
definitely like a um, verystrong, well, maybe that's
overstating there's a judgmentof the clan, they're bad guys
and we're meant to think of themas bad guys.
Right, but it's so gentle, likethe actual threat is so gentle
that like this you know, jackiegleason's us baits like in the
(21:40):
end is like kind and whateverand you know, offering a job and
warm and wanting his kid toenjoy the company of Jack Brown
after this one week, and likethat ain't how it works.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Someone who says I am the truth is not someone who
can be fixed after you know 90minutes and some warm fuzzies.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, some warm fuzzies, yeah.
And who would play politicswith the Klan in that way and
cozy up to the grand wizard ofthe KKK for personal gain?
It's not harmless, and thisfilm would have us believe that
(22:26):
it's relatively harmless, and Ithink that's so.
When I look at it in that likezoomed out, I also then see the
ways in which this film, usingPryor for his talent and his
name and his comedy, chops inthat kind of like service.
(22:52):
It's.
It's just it's like a fractal,you know, and say more about
that.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
What do you mean by it's a fractal I?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
mean it's what's happening in the text of the,
the story to jack.
What's happening to jack ishappening to richard.
I see, okay, yeah, yeah, right,like what's happening to this
character is also happening tothe actor playing him.
(23:25):
Because one of the lessons isthat everybody has a price.
Because jack says like no,slavery is illegal, that's, we
don't do that.
No, no, I'm, I have my dignity.
And then mr bates says how,about ten thousand dollars?
And he says I mean and it'sfunny, it's played for laughs
(23:48):
because he says, like you, youknow, my wife and I were about
to make love.
Do you want to join?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
in.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Mr Morehouse.
It's funny, yeah, yeah, but themoral is that we all have a
price and that's like, yeah, sothat's what I mean, fractal and
I don't know, like I don't knowhow to.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
You know, one of the things that I think that is
coming up for me is we were verymuch raised in the we don't see
race kind of era.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Sort of not racist as opposed to anti-racist.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yes, which you know we've since, and this, this was
made during that era and if what, what I am kind of what's
lighting up in my head right nowis that there is this sense
(24:53):
that, like by saying likeslavery doesn't exist anymore
and you know, having RichardPryor in this play, in this,
this film, and playing this part, it's like the, the stutter
step of not racist toanti-racist.
That may have felt likeprogress at the time, in the
(25:17):
same way that, like the don'task, don't tell in the military
was felt like progress or feltprogress in the 90s.
I mean it was progress becauseum and so, so, and that that's
kind of where, where what I'mthinking about is like we're
looking at this 40 years on andit's horrifying, but at the time
(25:41):
, like that was the best thatcould be done because
anti-racism was not going to getinto a mainstream film.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, I think that may be.
That may be true.
I do think it's interestingthat the contemporaneous reviews
that I read saw it at the timeInteresting.
Okay.
So, um, there was one from the,I want to say there was one
from the Washington post andthere was one other that was
contemporaneous that was like,yeah, this is what.
Who thought this was a goodidea?
(26:11):
So I don't know, I mean forsure that's the way our family
felt about it, right?
Or or it wouldn't have been inthe heavy rotation that it was.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
We watched it a lot A lot I mean that's.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
that's why this one, and not Brewster's Millions, was
the first on the list for me ofa Richard Pryor which, by the
way, we should do because Ithink your money is now.
I want to see Brewster'sMillions with you.
Anyway, yeah, yeah.
So I think you're right andalso I think some people did
(26:45):
know better, not just one or two, it wasn't just Angelais who
knew better at the time.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah and and richard prior theoretically would have
been one of them.
Yeah, considering just how, howsavvy he was, um, and like
that's, that sounds reallycondescending.
I don't mean it that way.
I I mean, um, just, his comedywas not just I'm here trying to
(27:13):
make people laugh.
His comedy had a, had had anedge to it, had a point to it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
He was a sophisticated thinker.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yes, he was very much a sophisticated thinker.
Yeah, um, now the the thing islike to be fair to our family.
What I came away from, whatthis movie gave me, was a a
sense that Richard Pryor's Jackwas right.
(27:39):
Yeah, that he had.
He was the moral center of thefilm.
He was trying to get by in anugly situation, and that's at
every point.
He was trying to get by in anugly situation, um, and that at
every point.
He was trying to do the rightthing, agreed, um, and so.
So like I can see why thatwould be what, why, dad, let us
(28:03):
see it yeah, yeah, I also.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So I learned about piranha from this film.
I also learned about the KKKfrom this film.
That's true, me too, and myrecollection is that our family
was like they're the worst.
They're the worst of the worst.
You know so, you know I.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
You know, the other thing about it is.
So I had a sense of them asbeing an object of ridicule
because of this Yep, and that isactually Not a bad.
I had a sense of them as beingan object of ridicule because of
this Yep, and that is actuallyNot a bad thing.
Not a bad thing.
And part of how this popculture helped release the KKK's
(28:54):
hold on America was through thefirst Superman TV show, where
they made the KKK an object ofridicule and so, like when you
start thinking about like GrandDragon and Grand Wizard, instead
of it being like something tobe terrified of, it's just like
look at these idiots and that isactually.
And I've read sometime in thepast 10 years or so.
I've read about how productivethat is as a way of dealing with
fascism.
Um is like pointing out thesilliness, the, the
(29:20):
ridiculousness of it.
Um and I I'm sure that ourparents hadn't thought through
that, yeah, yeah, I also thinkthat that, because I do also
remember like asking dad aboutwhy mel brooks would do comedy
about hitler and um and dadsaying like well, that's, that's
(29:43):
a way to to um kind of takepower back, so like they may not
have recognized like thebroader context of it.
But I think dad did know thatmaking the KKK an object of
ridicule and letting us see itit's not a bad thing.
But our parents didn't they?
(30:04):
They were not sophisticatedThinkers about race Thinkers
about race Thinkers about race.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Agreed, yeah, agreed, yeah.
So that's the sort of thebiggest thing that I came back
with Some of the smaller thingsthat I wanted to actually kind
of name.
Like the film opens, jack isplaying poker with a bunch of
(30:34):
folks like in the neighborhoodand, um, they're just shooting
the shit and like playing pokerand their stakes are like food
stamps and like coupons andstuff and the conversation that
they have there is it just feelsreal Like they're teasing each
(30:54):
other and they're like jokingabout stuff.
And I actually like reallyappreciated like that opening
scene of like it's sort of theordinary world if it's Joseph
Campbell's thing, but the waythat we open on him, just kind
(31:15):
of like shooting the breeze withthese friends and neighbors.
That just felt like in the waythat you talked about Goonies,
where we saw the kids talk, theway kids actually talk, not the
way grownups script kids.
That's what this poker gamefelt like and I it just, I just
(31:37):
liked it.
It just felt like refreshing ina in an interesting way, like
to just it felt like I washaving a glimpse into somebody's
actual life, not like a curatedone, which was cool.
So I I don't have anything moreto say about that.
I just want to name that.
Maybe that's a thing thatRichard Donner saw as a director
, since he was also the Gooniesguy.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
That's a good point.
You know, like there aredifferent directors, have
different skills, and one of thethings like and I don't, I know
the name but I don't know, Icouldn't list his movies off the
top of my head, like once youtell't I know the name but I
don't know, I couldn't list hismovies off the top of my head,
like once you tell me I'll belike, oh yeah, that's him.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But that's.
He did one of the Supermanmovies.
I think too Lethal.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Weapon, the Goonies, superman 2, superman the first
one, the Omen, no kidding.
So I wonder if one of hisskills is either in directing or
choosing projects that give youa glimpse into real life?
Yeah, because that's the sortof thing that you're right you
(32:47):
often get.
It's a curated scripted likethis is what we think people
sound like.
This is what we think kidssound like.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And the rest of the movie doesn't have that.
Well, there are moments.
There actually are moments,because there's the moment when
they interview the woman who wasthe head of the cleaning ladies
.
They're sitting around a tableand she's sort of chatting, but
that still is a little bit morecurated because we need the
snippets of what she wants tosay that we need for the
storyline, the opening scene.
(33:16):
There's nothing that's movingthe story forward, it's just
sort of setting the stage, thecontext setting, and so it is
like it just feels more whole inits own as opposed to serving
anything, cause the only thingit serves is to introduce us to,
to Jack.
So, anyway, so that that wassomething that I wanted to, um,
just quickly note, because itreally, as I pressed, play it
(33:39):
like, really stuck out to me.
And the other another thing isI want to talk briefly about, um
, uh, gender in this.
I am the truth construction.
So fancy, who you remember withthe propellers, like she is a
trophy wife, I mean, that's justall she is.
She's like bubbly blonde andshe, she tells the story of how
(34:02):
they met.
She was working in the CD barand that's the propellers thing.
She had propellers on her boobsand you know she says something
like you know, he, he picked meup and he brought me here and
he got me new hair and he got menew boobs.
And you know it got you knowlike he made her who she is now
and then, which leads to a veryfunny moment when Eric says
(34:24):
fancy, what did your boobs looklike before?
But, um, but in that wholeconversation where she gets kind
of a lot of screen time andlines, she says he was coming
back from I don't remember,maybe Oklahoma city or something
, where his ex is in a loony binand us says it doesn't matter
(34:45):
what I was doing.
So she says, well, it mattersbecause I could end up there or
something along those lines.
She expresses fear that shewill also end up in the.
And is this Eric's mother?
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So is Eric's mother dead.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
They don't ever name her.
I don't believe that she's dead, but I don't know.
But they don't ever talk abouther.
So he's, he's come from themilitary academy where he is,
you know, boarding school, buthe says something like it's the
(35:23):
U?
S, says something like it's myweek, which doesn't the dialogue
doesn't sound like he's homeI'm putting quotes around that
word but rather that he'svisiting, but I they never say
explicitly so I couldn't, Idon't know.
Okay, I don't know.
But the impression I she saidhis last wife, okay, she didn't
(35:46):
say like your mom or eric's momor anything so which are not
mutually exclusive, but Eric'ssitting there.
So yeah, like within theuniverse of the toy I do not
believe it was meant to beEric's mom that they were
talking might put her in amental institution and and
(36:12):
presumably, you know, upgrade toan even younger model that he
can give even bigger boobs, likeit kind of goes without comment
.
You know, it's not like it'snot the central thing, it's just
like additional evidence thatthis guy gets what he wants.
(36:32):
But it stuck out to me, youknow, as I was watching it this
time and I think that you knowthe actress.
She does a good job, like thecharacter is fun and funny and
like, uh, you know, and acaricature, but you know, like
(36:55):
that's kind of what you expectyeah, um, this is not a movie
you go for depth and nuance inthe characters.
yeah, right, um, and, andthere's, you know, certainly,
like they were self-consciouslythey thought they were making
specific statements about race.
I don't think theyself-consciously were making
(37:16):
statements about gender, and yetthere they were in the ways
that this powerful man uses hispower over women as well.
So that was another thing thatI wanted to sort of like
articulate.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So my spouse and I were recording this the week
after Thanksgiving we just cameback from.
We were in Asheville, northCarolina, visiting my in-laws
for Thanksgiving.
And one of the things there isa serious problem with
homelessness in Asheville andthe it's a blue dot in a red
(37:55):
state and there are a lot ofhomeless shelters with vacancies
, not because there aren'tenough people to fill them, but
because the shelters requireresidents to stay on their meds
and do the things that need tobe done.
And many, many, many of thesefolks have mental illness issues
(38:17):
with that kind of problem.
And so it got me and my spousetalking about how to handle that
, because it was in the likeabout the 80s when the
psychiatric institutions wereforced to release people rather
than have involuntary holds.
And you know it's it's oneproblem for another, and so my
(38:45):
husband and I were we're on twosides of this Cause.
He's like you know.
I feel like it would be, youknow, less bad if we were able
to help people this way, youknow, and and like they're, they
have to be in this, thisinstitution, and take their
medication, and I understandwhere he's coming from and how
that that would be like in someways safer.
(39:05):
But on the other hand I keptsaying to him I was like, but
women so often wereinstitutionalized against their
will because they pissed off aman in their life, because they
were quote, unquote, uppity.
And I asked him, like, have youread the Yellow Wallpaper by
Charlotte Perkins Gilman?
And he's like, no, I'm notfamiliar with it.
She was not institutionalizedbut, gilman, she was forced on
(39:30):
bed rest, which basically meantshe was not allowed to do
anything.
She was stuck in a room, couldgo outside for like a half hour
a day.
Anything she was stuck in aroom could go outside for like a
half hour a day.
And because anything that couldtrigger her hysteria, including
writing or painting or visitingfriends or anything like that,
(39:50):
was too inciting of any kind ofhumors, and so she went a little
bit nuts because she was youthink she went a little bit nuts
because she was.
You think, yeah, um, and so Iam very cognizant of the
imbalance of power when you know, bitches, be crazy is just a
(40:13):
given in our world.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And so did not expect that to come up in the toy.
But you know, fancy having thatconcern is not unfounded.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
No, well, his ex is in one.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, she's,she's, it's real, it's real, and
at one point and she she's, sheplays, I mean she's supposed to
be like this dizzy blonde, butshe's savvy enough to understand
(40:47):
what she is.
To me, it's clear she's playingthe part.
This is the part she's expectedto play, and so she's playing
it and it's working for her.
I mean, she's living in amansion.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Well, I mean that's, and so that means she's in a
similar situation as Jack.
Yes, yes, it does.
Capitalism is that you arestuck playing a part to survive
(41:19):
or thrive, but you know that itcan be taken away from you at
any time, and you might have totake your pants down.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, and actually that scene, that's exactly it.
So the scene where you learnthe word litigious Jack comes in
to apply for the cleaning ladyjob and the job is for a lady.
It's explicit that they'relooking for a woman and so he's
talking to Ned Beatty who issaying you're overqualified for
this job.
You're a journalist.
This is a cleaning lady job andalso lady, and so he's kind of
(41:50):
leaving but he sort of passive,aggressively, threatens to sue.
That's where you remember thelitigious, threatens to sue.
That's where you remember thelitigious.
And Beatty says to him is itreally that bad out there?
And Jack, richard Pryor, saysit's worse.
And then you know, fast forward,whatever like 65, 75 minutes.
(42:13):
And there's the scene with him,with, um, ned Beatty's
Morehouse being forced to takehis pants down and standing
there with his boxer shorts, uhand as so now he's pulled his
pants back out and jack isleaving that pants back up and
jack is leaving the room and hestops and they they talk for a
minute and jack says now tomrhouse is it really that bad
(42:36):
out there?
And Mr Morehouse says it'sworse.
So I think that the characterssay what you just said, which is
, you know, it's another one ofthose give with one hand and
(42:58):
take with the other.
Right, because I feel likewe're given this just absolute,
like indictment of this world inwhich we live, but we're also
given a happy ending where theperpetrator of this oppression,
the perpetrator of thisindignity and, you know, harm
(43:25):
gets a warm, sappy ending withhis son.
He gets redeemed withoutactually having done any work
yeah so because he reallydoesn't.
I mean, like the work he does,is that like Pryor's?
Like no, you got to talk to himhere.
I'm with him and we'll do somerole play.
I'm him, you're you, hey dad,come on dad.
(43:47):
And then Richard Pryor likesits on Jackie Gleason's lap,
and then there's a like a joke,that fancy walks in and says you
ass, you kinky bastard, orsomething like that.
You know, but he doesn'tactually do any work, he's
embarrassed.
That's the work he does, he'sembarrassed.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
You know, this kind of goes along with what I was
thinking about, what I mentionedearlier about how it was the
colorblind and non-racist ratherthan anti-racist, colorblind
and non-racist rather thananti-racist.
There's, whenever there's apush forward and like a
progressive push forward,there's always like a backlash,
and I think one of thebacklashes that we experienced
(44:31):
as kids that, um, like we didn'tknow at the time was that we
were fed this idea that rightswere granted by well-meaning
white people to black folks inthe same way that rights were
granted to women by well-meaningmen.
Because I did not have the sensethat, like you know, no, you
(44:54):
stand up and scream until you'rehoarse and make a nuisance of
yourself and you grab yourrights.
I did not get that sense at allwhen I was growing up, to the
point where it surprised me tolearn that Rosa Parks had
Training, training.
(45:14):
I thought like we were toldthis story of like she was tired
and didn't want to take itanymore, so like there is
nothing you can do unless thatmoment is thrust on you Until
the inspiration strikes.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was definitely the story we
were given.
And so and this movie is likereiterating that I mean it's
like both right, because Jackcertainly takes action, very
much so repeatedly.
You know the newspaper, theparty like he takes action, but
(45:49):
still within the script it is uscoming to.
His own kind of decision iswhat is successful.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And in the days since the election this year, that's
kind of what we're seeing, wherewe see people like why are you
letting politics get in the wayof our relationship?
Are like why are you lettingpolitics get in the way of our
relationship?
And it's that same sort ofthing, Like if you're just nice
to the people who are oppressingyou, they'll stop oppressing
(46:25):
you.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
That's exactly that.
So thank you for saying it thatway, because that is exactly.
Except that Jack wasn't nice toyou Es Well, but when he's
saying but he was nice to Eric.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
He't nice to us Well, but when he's but he was nice
to Eric, he wasn't Eric.
And then when, jack, when, whenuh us is like I don't know how
to, how to be a father to my son, he does coach him, that's true
.
Let's try to help him.
Then, yes, you're right, yes,so like he sees, like he sees a
man in need, and he helps him,even though this man is awful,
(46:58):
awful.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So awful.
So US actually says to Jackwhen he first meets him I want
him to know that having moneymeans never having to say you're
sorry, like Jackie Gleason saysthat explicitly.
So you know we're meant to like.
So there's, there's certainlylike an indictment, but then
he's given, he's given theredemption arc without, as I say
(47:23):
, without actually payingconsequences, not really.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So so anyway, we are meant to empathize with Jackie
Gleason's character in some way,eventually, eventually, and I
think some of that has to dowith the very American sense of
(47:50):
like.
We're not poor, we'retemporarily embarrassed
millionaires.
Mm-hmm embarrassed millionaires, because part of seeing these,
this, this film and many otherpieces of pop culture is I.
I want to.
(48:11):
I want to see how the other halflives and I want I, and someday
that'll be me Like I'll be theone with the piranhas keeping
the hoi polloi out, and so Ithink there's some of that and
that's a very Americansensibility.
I'm not saying that it's not,it doesn't happen elsewhere, but
there's something particularabout the way that Americans
(48:34):
look at money, at wealth, atwealth as morality and all of
that, and the happy ending forJack is having enough money.
So even though it's anindictment of capitalism, it's
also a celebration of it in alot of ways.
(48:55):
Yeah of it in a lot of ways,yeah.
And then the other aspect thatI think this is bringing up for
me is we talked during the Jawsepisode about how I thought that
I was understanding.
I had a nuanced understandingof people because I was like no
one's all bad.
(49:15):
I was patting myself on theback because like oh, that's
ridiculous that someone wouldbehave that way.
And so and I can trace thatback to things like this because
, you know, jackie Gleason'scharacter is the villain in this
movie, but we're, we're givento see that, you know, he really
(49:36):
does love his son and justdoesn't know how to, and so no
one's all bad.
And so it's this like it's a.
You know, I don't see race andI'm not like other girls.
It's the kumbaya, like we canall get together and just be
together.
And I thought that that was amore mature way of looking at
(50:00):
the world, because that's what Iwas told as a child, and I
thought it was naive to assumethat anyone is just an asshole
through and through.
But some people are assholesthrough and through.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I mean, I believe that everyone has the capacity
to make changes and also theydon't do it unless they're
forced.
Yeah Right, gain is not goingto be like.
(50:40):
It's not going to like.
Set that aside because RichardPryor was nice to his kid.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the thing that I I
to this day.
I'm still struggling with um alittle bit in in the in the wake
of the 2024 election yeah, umis election is that there is no
appealing to decency for somepeople, and in some ways, it's a
(51:06):
relief to let go of that ideathat I can appeal to the decency
of any people because, as Idescribed it, I feel like I've
been pushing against the lockeddoor for 45 years and I can
finally stop.
But where did that idea comefrom?
Why do I have that in my head?
Because of movies like this.
(51:29):
Everyone has a core of decencyand as long as you ask the right
way, treat their kid the rightway, piss them off the right way
you know, piss them off theright way you can unlock it Not
too much, not too little.
You can unlock that core ofdecency, and that's just not
true.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
And, like I agree with you, I think that every
human being has a capacity forchange, has a capacity for
decency and goodness andkindness, but many of them have
thrown that over.
They just don't, they don'thave any interest in accessing
it.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, I'm going to try and synthesize what we
talked about with this film, soyou'll have to help me out a bit
.
Oh, I didn't name it.
Does not pass the bechdel test.
(52:22):
Uh, I'm not surprised.
There are more than there.
There are at least two namedfemale characters, but they
don't speak to each other.
Um, okay, so 1982, the toystarring richard pryor and
jackie gleason, and this film isboth better in terms of race
(52:52):
than I expected and also wayworse, and I was expecting it to
be pretty bad.
So in the ways it's better,like I believe that Jack Brown
has like full agency and isgiven some dignity and is just
(53:14):
delightful, like, not like hemakes me laugh, not as the butt
of the joke.
I guess that's the way it wasbetter.
Richard Pryor is not the buttof the joke.
The way it's worse is the waysin which it sort of reified
white supremacy, the way it sortof was a fractal of itself, so
(53:36):
that what was happening to Jack,where people were like, well,
how much money would it take foryou to be a toy was happening
to Richard Pryor with this movie, because I think this movie was
how much money would it takefor you to be a toy.
That's the impression that Iget.
The way it's worse is the waythat like, yeah, it's an
(53:57):
indictment of the Klan and ofracism, but the real harm that
even within this film, thevillain does and a huge dilution
(54:42):
of the harm that the Klan andwhite supremacy do in the real
world, and so it's just awatered down version and so the
indictment doesn't take.
It's not as strong anindictment when it's just like a
puppet version of the trulyheinousous, villainous behavior
that happens in the real world.
(55:05):
We spent some time talking aboutgender and about this character
of fancy baits who is in manyways in a similar position to
Jack, insofar as she is there atthe discretion, at the whim of
(55:30):
Mr Bates, to be his plaything toa certain extent, um, and you
know she's decided it's betterthan what she had previously and
she knows what risks she hastaken because she knows about
the ex wife who's in a mentalinstitution and is afraid that
that may be where she will endup, which is very real.
(55:51):
And you brought in like thatreality, like just broader in
the society, especiallytraditionally to women who, like
the author of the yellowwallpaper, was forced to like
just not do anything because themen in her life didn't like the
way she behaved.
(56:11):
You talked well, we both talkedabout the ways in which this
film sort of was a stutter stepforward in the eighties, as not
racist, even though it reallyisn't anti-racist, and also
(56:34):
about the you identified as likedistinctly American although
this was written by a Frenchdude but the American kind of
reverence for wealth that thisplays into, for wealth that this
(56:56):
plays into.
So, though this exceedinglywealthy man is the villain, of
course he has a redemptive arc,because we all want to be super
rich and we don't want tobelieve that super rich people
are villainous.
And that piece, like it's, it'sa, it's about the richness, but
(57:18):
it's also about, ultimately,this ideology, this core thesis,
which has been disproven againand again, that people are
inherently good.
Good and even people who actlike assholes.
If you can just approach themthe right way and show them the
(57:39):
right kind of kindness, you canunlock their decency and they
will behave better.
Well, um, and and this film,like, really buys into that what
am I forgetting about what wespoke about?
uh, the sense that um like thisalso, it's related to that, but
(58:00):
the sense that um people don'tagitate for their own rights,
they are given them by abenevolent white person right
that that that false idea, yeah,of of how change happens is
reified by this, but by thisfilm, the idea that, um, the
powerful give up power becausethey're good people rather than
(58:22):
because they're forced to.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (58:26):
Oh, one last thing that I named, that we spoke a
little bit about Richard Donneras an, as a director, and
wondered if sort of that, thefrom the very opening scene of
this film and from some of thescenes in goodies that Donner
also directed, sort of the senseof like a window into something
, not curated conversation, butjust authentic somehow, which is
(58:46):
really silly to say about afilm.
But but that that, the way thatDonner is conveyed that in in a
, in those two films that wejust talked about consecutively,
we did name that as well assomething that we we don't
always see.
Whew, this was, um, yeah, Ihave to say that as I was like
(59:11):
partway into the movie, I waslike, why did I put this on the
list right now?
Why did I do this?
Why did I do this?
But but I also, like I rememberit so fondly, it was in such
heavy rotation, like I, we, Ican remember being at grandma's
house and watching it with Chris, like the three of us sitting
there watching it.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
So yeah, I also with things like this.
I find it opens up the abilityto have conversations with dad
in my head.
Yeah, like if you were here towatch it again with us and be
like what were you thinking atthe time?
And you know, do you have anyregrets about letting us watch
this?
And like that's one thing Ithink I told you after I saw
(59:54):
Nope in the theater.
Yeah, I remember I all I wantedto do was talk to dad about it
and I ended up writing a letterto Jordan Peele saying, like you
gave me an afternoon with myfather after he'd been gone for
years, and so like, and that'spart of why I feel like we're
doing this, because my spousehas told me like you know, it's
(01:00:15):
kind of sometimes feel bad whenyou know you critique these
movies that I love and like Iget that.
But I also just want to have aconversation.
I want to have a conversationwith the culture and with my
father and with, like, my past,and you know my own beliefs and
you know my kids.
You know whether or not they'reactually here with me to have
this conversation about, like,why is this art the way that it
(01:00:37):
is?
Yeah, yeah.
What?
What made this acceptable in1982?
Um, and why is it notacceptable anymore?
Yeah, um.
Are there things that we cantake from it that are good, even
though the the movie itself iskind of a problem?
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, yeah, uh, all right.
Well, there is one commentatorthat I thought did a really
interesting analysis, which Iwill share.
They're the person who reallyhelped me to see the fractal
nature, so I'll share that inthe show notes.
I will see you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Yeah, Next time my dear friend Erica Plank Hagen
will be joining us to talk aboutMuppet Christmas Carol.
Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Oh, that's right, Right in time for Christmas.
I can't wait, yep.
All right, see you then,bye-bye.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:01:37):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Like in some ways it's delightful because Richard
Pryor is delightful, like he'sjust I remember really, really
liking him in this movie.
What others might deem stupidshit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the guy
(00:20):
girls.
Every week, we take turnsrewatching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks.
(00:41):
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to deep thoughtss
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll bebringing my deep thoughts about
the 1982 Richard Pryor film theToy to my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and to you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, so I know you've seenthis film because it was on
(01:05):
heavy rotation when we were kids, but tell me, what do you
remember about the toy?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So there's a couple things I remember.
I remember that his last nameis Bates, because they call him
Master Bates.
I remember that which I didn'tget at the time.
I was just re-watching it fortoday and and they say it, and
Richard Pryor laughs and I waslike oh, I don't think I would
(01:33):
have remembered, except thatthere was a teacher when I was
in high school whose last namewas Baton, and so the kids would
call him Master Baton insteadof Mr Baton Got it, and I think
that's the only reason why it'sthere.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I didn't know why it was funny when it was in heavy
rotation.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
So I didn't at the time either.
So I remember that.
I remember his dad's name is US, yes, and so with the southern
accent it sounds like US.
I remember him driving in ago-kart or something like that,
chasing after Richard Pryor.
The little boy is played by thesame kid who played Flick in
(02:23):
Christmas.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Story Scott.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Schwartz.
Yes, scott Schwartz.
Yes, and my knowledge ofpiranhas came from this movie.
Me too.
I think so, me too.
And then I believe this iswhere I learned the word
litigious, because there's apoint where Richard Pryor says
to US and is he played by Jackie?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Gleason, us, is Jackie Gleason.
Richard Pryor says it actually,though to Ned Beatty's.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Mr Morehouse, yes, that his wife or girlfriend,
wife.
Wife is very litigious, yeah,litigious, yeah, um, and I know,
like I the the idea of this,the, the conceit of the film,
(03:13):
which is this very spoiledlittle boy is taken to a toy
store where richard pryor isworking and said he can pick out
anything he wants and he picksout.
Richard pryor is reallyworrisome like, and I, I, I feel
like dad talked to us about ita little bit, but I don't know
for sure yeah, so, um that, andthere was a story about
(03:36):
propellers on the very, uh, likethe blonde bombshell on on her,
on her, um, her uniform at herat when she was a waitress, yeah
.
So those are just moments that.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, so tell me, why are we talking about it today?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Yeah.
So, as I said, it was in heavyrotation and since you know,
thinking about lessons aboutrace in popular culture is one
of the things that we do here,you know it was on the list and
I was like, oh yeah, let's checkthat out, and I knew it would
be problematic.
(04:19):
I knew, you know, just in mymemory it is, and, yeah, I was
right, I was right.
You know, just in my memory itis um, and uh, yeah, I was right
, I was right.
It's funny, it's, it's both.
It was both better and wayworse than I, than I remembered.
So so that's kind ofinteresting.
Um, so a couple of things, andthen I'll do a synopsis, um,
that put this in sort of contextwith other deep thoughts,
(04:42):
episodes.
So the story was by by FrancisWeber, who's the same French
screenwriter and director orwhatever who wrote the Birdcage,
and it's directed by RichardDonner, who's the same director
as the Goonies.
So, yeah, so the toy was 1982,1982, and then goonies, I think
(05:05):
was a year or two later.
So donner moved from the toy togoonies.
So those are sort ofinteresting things.
The original french version ofthe toy, the richard pryor
character was white also, andthe rich family was white and so
Richard Pryor's identity reallychanged some of what is
(05:30):
happening in the story.
And setting it in America andyou switch something out, it
gives it different meaning thanwriting a new story would have.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And so like part of what I remember was that this
was like that Richard Pryor didthis film, in part because it
gave it was a vehicle fortalking about racism.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I don't know if that's true or not.
Um, I don't know, maybe, butthere are those who feel like
this there was like a meta thingwhere this is actually sort of
the example of him being used bywhite Hollywood.
Um, anyway, we'll get into that.
So I we have to, we have totalk about race.
(06:28):
Uh, when we talk about thisfilm, I also do want to talk
about gender and class.
Um, I want to talk about likesort of the storytelling trips
and like the magical negro andthe racism around magical negro,
because I think that priorsjack is a little bit of that in
this film and the ways in whichit was about race but also
(06:48):
really like whitewashed racism.
So that'll probably fill ourtime, but we'll see what comes
up.
But let me give a quick synopsis, and it really can be pretty
quick, because there's a lot oflike hijinks, but those will
come up in conversation, butdon't matter, for like the plot.
The plot is as you say.
(07:09):
We meet Jack.
What's Jack's last name?
Jack Brown.
We meet Jack Brown, richardPryor's character, who's an
out-of-work writer andjournalist and he's been out of
work for so long that it'salmost like become the
profession of work writer andjournalist and he's been out of
work for so long that it'salmost like become the
profession.
And we learned that he's in,he's in danger of losing his
house because, because they haveno money and they just he just
(07:32):
cannot get a job, and so hedecides to just take whatever he
can.
So in fact, he takes a job as acleaning lady lady, uh, for the
Bates group, um, and they puthim in a french, like a maid's
outfit, like a black dress withthe apron, um, and say, oh for
fuck's sake about that, oh foryes sake yeah, what the fuck
(07:56):
uh-huhuh-huh and then, um, he gets
fired from that.
Ultimately, I mean, somethinghappens, but ultimately it's
because Jackie Gleason's USBates is just horrible and like
does things that are ridiculousand Jack like tries to like
(08:18):
adjust for the other people inthe room and ends up like
pissing off Mr Bates.
So he gets fired from that jobas the cleaning lady but then
ends up we see him, he's servingas janitor in a department
store, also owned by Mr Bates,where young Eric Bates is home,
is visiting his father for aweek from like whatever military
(08:40):
school he goes to and is tolddad told him he can have
anything in the store that hewants.
And, um, richard pryor is um,jack jack is is like goofing off
while he's cleaning.
And uh, eric decides that'sthat's what he wants and he says
I want the black man.
Like the child actually saysthose words.
(09:03):
And, um, we know jack needsmoney.
And so we see the yes, men whowork for Bates like putting a
hundred dollar bills into hishand until he's like, well, I
guess we could talk about it.
So he's sent to the Bates'smansion in a crate, um, and then
(09:26):
you know, he keeps saying like,no, this is nuts, I'm not doing
this and sort of walking awayand they keep throwing more
money at him.
So, um, eric is like a littleshit and he's got a German tutor
(09:59):
nanny who is like watchingHitler speeches in her room and
like throws herself at him.
She's like I can't believe youwould push yourself in here,
which also really is verydifferent with, like, a white
lady making false accusationsagainst a black man.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Let's come back to that oh, look those of you who
are just listening.
I've been sitting here with mymouth open since you mentioned
the hitler speeches like oh mygod, yeah so we meet the um
trophy wife, much younger,voluptuous blonde, played by
(10:34):
theresa ganzel.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Her name is fancy, fancy baits, and she's like oh,
what do I have to do with ericnow?
And and Eric just wants tospend time with his dad.
Anyway, there's a whole bunchof shit that happens, with Eric
pulling pranks on um Jack andJack being like no, I'm not
doing this anymore, and whatever.
(10:58):
But he keeps being convincedand and he actually leaves.
He actually leaves after he'sbeen humiliated, he leaves the
house and Bates sends more houseNed Beatty to his house and
gives him a check for $10,000,which in today's dollars is like
(11:18):
almost 40 grand, it's like$38,000.
And it's the exact amount thatthey need to save the house
$38,000.
And it's the exact amount thatthey need to save the house.
So he comes back and again morepranking from the kid.
(11:39):
But then they come to anunderstanding because all the
kid really needed was someone tosit him down and explain to him
that you earn friends, youdon't buy them.
Him down and explain to himthat friends you, you earn
friends, you don't buy them.
The scene with the piranha jackand eric are going fishing.
Eric explains how dad broughtsome piranha up to this watering
(11:59):
hole to keep the hoi polloi out.
That's the word er Eric uses.
And Jack's like I don't believeyou.
There are no piranha here.
Piranha are in South America,there are no piranha here.
And so he wades into the waterand then does the sort of sped
up film running on water thinglike ridiculousness, and then
has holes all over his clothesbecause there are in fact
piranha.
And then they run into MrMorehouse, who is Ned Beatty's
(12:25):
character, who's like the Idon't know, one of the key top
yes, men in Bates's organizationand he's drunk and fishing
because he's upset.
He had to fire somebody becausethe man has very sweaty hands
and every time he shook handswith Mr Bates he had very sweaty
hands.
And so Mr Bates insisted thathe be canned and um Beatty's
more houses distraught becausehe was a good guy and he hasa
(12:48):
family and he's a father andhe's a husband and and so we
start to see Eric witness theeffect his dad has on other
people out there.
Jack and Eric decide to puttogether a newspaper.
Jack is an out of work reporter, remember.
Bates owns a newspaper whereJack has been trying to get a
(13:09):
job for over a year and beenunsuccessful.
So they're going to puttogether a newspaper, um, and
it's basically going to exposethe dad for all of the terrible
things that he's done.
They interview Fancy.
Oh, for the paper.
They take a picture of aportrait of her.
That's in Bates' office thatthere's a button that you press
(13:33):
and her dress comes off andshe's naked.
They don't do the naked picturein there, but that's a moment.
And to the interview like thebutler and the interview,
actually the woman who was thein charge, Mr Bates, confronts
them and is like how manynewspapers did you distribute?
(14:12):
He tells Morehouse that hewants all of them accounted for
and shredded.
And then he says Eric sayssomething like it's the truth.
Says Eric says something likeit's the truth and Bates is like
let me tell you something, I'mthe truth.
And he like makes Morehousetake his pants down.
Uh, if he values his job andjust like, anyway, it's gross.
(14:36):
So Bates offers prior, uh,bates offers Jack a job as a
reporter in the newspaper,basically like to own him, I
guess.
And he needs a job.
(14:58):
And so he accepts.
And Eric is like you can't dothat.
He's going to make you takeyour pants down and you're like
whatever, and um, and we thinkthat that's where it ends.
But then the next day we seethere's a big party at the
mansion and we learn that it isto get a S, a Senator and the
(15:24):
grand wizard of the KKK in aphoto op.
The Senator does not know theidentity of the KKK guy and we
see Bates say to each of themlike in quick succession if they
all knew this was a fundraiser,they wouldn't be here.
(15:44):
So he's playing them.
Jack's wife has shown up.
She's the head of a groupcalled clan watch and she's
shown up to like protest this.
And he's like go home, I've gotthis, just trust me.
So then he Jack and Eric in thego-kart and a dirt bike, like
(16:06):
destroy the party, tell thesenator who the guy is that he's
having his picture taken withand just like run amok in this
party.
Bates gets really mad, gets ina golf cart, is chasing them,
ends up in the swimming pool.
At the bottom of the swimmingpool, eric's freaking out
because dad's like not coming up.
(16:26):
Jack saves his life.
And then the next day like it'sthe end of the week, so Jack has
gone home and Eric is meant togo back to military school.
Meanwhile Jack and Mr Bateshave had a conversation where
jack is like just talk to him,like just be there for him.
(16:49):
You can't like because, becausebates feels some kind of way
about the fact that eric seemsto really care for this man in a
way that he doesn't care forthat himself.
So we see in the car, uh, youknow, in the, in the Rolls Royce
limo, uh, dad is like tryingkinda, they get to the airport
(17:16):
and Eric just runs away, takes acab to Jack's house and Jack's
like no, you can't, you can't behere, like you need to go home.
He's trying.
And then dad shows up a fewminutes later and meanwhile
prior has said uh, jack has saidlike I've never seen two people
need each other the way you andyour dad need each other.
And, um, so Eric runs to dad,gives him a hug.
(17:43):
Mr Bates says next year, twoweeks, one week for me, one week
for you, jack.
Eric's excited about that.
Um, mr Bates says you know Iwas serious about that job, if
you want it.
Uh, jack says thanks, you ass.
And uh, us says you're entitledto call me you ass.
(18:04):
You're the only one, becausewe've heard that earlier.
He says it's US, not US.
And then the final gag is thatanother rich white lady shows up
and says Fancy, told me what agreat job you did with their boy
.
Can you spend some time with myson, who's another horrible
brat?
And then it's the end.
(18:24):
So there's more details inthere, but that's the story arc
and so like watching this now,like in some ways it's
delightful, because RichardPryor is delightful, like he's
just I remember really, reallyliking him in this movie.
(18:47):
He's just really wonderful, he,he has this, um, he does this
thing where, when he's likehaving big feelings where he's
not actually saying any words,it's just sort of expressing in
these like emotions, not wordwords, like that is like so
(19:13):
funny, it's just, it's just realand hilarious and like charming
.
And we get a lot of that.
He does that a lot.
Um, and you know the like cue,the you know heartfelt music
(19:33):
underneath the conversationsabout what it means to be a real
friend and and and even likeabout love and and relationships
.
You know, because Eric's likeasking about like and sex and
stuff and which, by the way, thecharacter says like what do you
do with your thing?
(19:53):
And jack's like, don't worryabout your thing, you'll figure
that out when it's time.
Well, it turns out, scottschwartz is a porn star, so I
guess he figured out what to dowith this thing.
My, oh my.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Oh my, oh my, oh my.
One of the things that I Iremember taking away from this
was that the film does give Jacka sense of dignity.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Sort of Sort of Exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I think that's exactly it, sort of so like but
I, you know, as you'redescribing it, what I'm, what I
am sitting here thinking, islike, well, this is like, this
is a, an indictment of latestage capitalism in so many ways
.
But sort of cause, we're, we're, we're, we get to enjoy this.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, I think, when looked at with
sort of that meta lens, it'sthat's when I, that's when it's
so much worse.
Right, because I think part ofthe thing is that.
Right, because I think part ofthe thing is that there's
(21:16):
definitely like a um, verystrong, well, maybe that's
overstating there's a judgmentof the clan, they're bad guys
and we're meant to think of themas bad guys.
Right, but it's so gentle, likethe actual threat is so gentle
that like this you know, jackiegleason's us baits like in the
(21:40):
end is like kind and whateverand you know, offering a job and
warm and wanting his kid toenjoy the company of Jack Brown
after this one week, and likethat ain't how it works.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Someone who says I am the truth is not someone who
can be fixed after you know 90minutes and some warm fuzzies.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah, some warm fuzzies, yeah.
And who would play politicswith the Klan in that way and
cozy up to the grand wizard ofthe KKK for personal gain?
It's not harmless, and thisfilm would have us believe that
(22:26):
it's relatively harmless, and Ithink that's so.
When I look at it in that likezoomed out, I also then see the
ways in which this film, usingPryor for his talent and his
name and his comedy, chops inthat kind of like service.
(22:52):
It's.
It's just it's like a fractal,you know, and say more about
that.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
What do you mean by it's a fractal I?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
mean it's what's happening in the text of the,
the story to jack.
What's happening to jack ishappening to richard.
I see, okay, yeah, yeah, right,like what's happening to this
character is also happening tothe actor playing him.
(23:25):
Because one of the lessons isthat everybody has a price.
Because jack says like no,slavery is illegal, that's, we
don't do that.
No, no, I'm, I have my dignity.
And then mr bates says how,about ten thousand dollars?
And he says I mean and it'sfunny, it's played for laughs
(23:48):
because he says, like you, youknow, my wife and I were about
to make love.
Do you want to join?
Speaker 2 (23:51):
in.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Mr Morehouse.
It's funny, yeah, yeah, but themoral is that we all have a
price and that's like, yeah, sothat's what I mean, fractal and
I don't know, like I don't knowhow to.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
You know, one of the things that I think that is
coming up for me is we were verymuch raised in the we don't see
race kind of era.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Sort of not racist as opposed to anti-racist.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
Yes, which you know we've since, and this, this was
made during that era and if what, what I am kind of what's
lighting up in my head right nowis that there is this sense
(24:53):
that, like by saying likeslavery doesn't exist anymore
and you know, having RichardPryor in this play, in this,
this film, and playing this part, it's like the, the stutter
step of not racist toanti-racist.
That may have felt likeprogress at the time, in the
(25:17):
same way that, like the don'task, don't tell in the military
was felt like progress or feltprogress in the 90s.
I mean it was progress becauseum and so, so, and that that's
kind of where, where what I'mthinking about is like we're
looking at this 40 years on andit's horrifying, but at the time
(25:41):
, like that was the best thatcould be done because
anti-racism was not going to getinto a mainstream film.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, I think that may be.
That may be true.
I do think it's interestingthat the contemporaneous reviews
that I read saw it at the timeInteresting.
Okay.
So, um, there was one from the,I want to say there was one
from the Washington post andthere was one other that was
contemporaneous that was like,yeah, this is what.
Who thought this was a goodidea?
(26:11):
So I don't know, I mean forsure that's the way our family
felt about it, right?
Or or it wouldn't have been inthe heavy rotation that it was.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
We watched it a lot A lot I mean that's.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
that's why this one, and not Brewster's Millions, was
the first on the list for me ofa Richard Pryor which, by the
way, we should do because Ithink your money is now.
I want to see Brewster'sMillions with you.
Anyway, yeah, yeah.
So I think you're right andalso I think some people did
(26:45):
know better, not just one or two, it wasn't just Angelais who
knew better at the time.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Yeah and and richard prior theoretically would have
been one of them.
Yeah, considering just how, howsavvy he was, um, and like
that's, that sounds reallycondescending.
I don't mean it that way.
I I mean, um, just, his comedywas not just I'm here trying to
(27:13):
make people laugh.
His comedy had a, had had anedge to it, had a point to it.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
He was a sophisticated thinker.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yes, he was very much a sophisticated thinker.
Yeah, um, now the the thing islike to be fair to our family.
What I came away from, whatthis movie gave me, was a a
sense that Richard Pryor's Jackwas right.
(27:39):
Yeah, that he had.
He was the moral center of thefilm.
He was trying to get by in anugly situation, and that's at
every point.
He was trying to get by in anugly situation, um, and that at
every point.
He was trying to do the rightthing, agreed, um, and so.
So like I can see why thatwould be what, why, dad, let us
(28:03):
see it yeah, yeah, I also.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So I learned about piranha from this film.
I also learned about the KKKfrom this film.
That's true, me too, and myrecollection is that our family
was like they're the worst.
They're the worst of the worst.
You know so, you know I.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
You know, the other thing about it is.
So I had a sense of them asbeing an object of ridicule
because of this Yep, and that isactually Not a bad.
I had a sense of them as beingan object of ridicule because of
this Yep, and that is actuallyNot a bad thing.
Not a bad thing.
And part of how this popculture helped release the KKK's
(28:54):
hold on America was through thefirst Superman TV show, where
they made the KKK an object ofridicule and so, like when you
start thinking about like GrandDragon and Grand Wizard, instead
of it being like something tobe terrified of, it's just like
look at these idiots and that isactually.
And I've read sometime in thepast 10 years or so.
I've read about how productivethat is as a way of dealing with
fascism.
Um is like pointing out thesilliness, the, the
(29:20):
ridiculousness of it.
Um and I I'm sure that ourparents hadn't thought through
that, yeah, yeah, I also thinkthat that, because I do also
remember like asking dad aboutwhy mel brooks would do comedy
about hitler and um and dadsaying like well, that's, that's
(29:43):
a way to to um kind of takepower back, so like they may not
have recognized like thebroader context of it.
But I think dad did know thatmaking the KKK an object of
ridicule and letting us see itit's not a bad thing.
But our parents didn't they?
(30:04):
They were not sophisticatedThinkers about race Thinkers
about race Thinkers about race.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Agreed, yeah, agreed, yeah.
So that's the sort of thebiggest thing that I came back
with Some of the smaller thingsthat I wanted to actually kind
of name.
Like the film opens, jack isplaying poker with a bunch of
(30:34):
folks like in the neighborhoodand, um, they're just shooting
the shit and like playing pokerand their stakes are like food
stamps and like coupons andstuff and the conversation that
they have there is it just feelsreal Like they're teasing each
(30:54):
other and they're like jokingabout stuff.
And I actually like reallyappreciated like that opening
scene of like it's sort of theordinary world if it's Joseph
Campbell's thing, but the waythat we open on him, just kind
(31:15):
of like shooting the breeze withthese friends and neighbors.
That just felt like in the waythat you talked about Goonies,
where we saw the kids talk, theway kids actually talk, not the
way grownups script kids.
That's what this poker gamefelt like and I it just, I just
(31:37):
liked it.
It just felt like refreshing ina in an interesting way, like
to just it felt like I washaving a glimpse into somebody's
actual life, not like a curatedone, which was cool.
So I I don't have anything moreto say about that.
I just want to name that.
Maybe that's a thing thatRichard Donner saw as a director
, since he was also the Gooniesguy.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
That's a good point.
You know, like there aredifferent directors, have
different skills, and one of thethings like and I don't, I know
the name but I don't know, Icouldn't list his movies off the
top of my head, like once youtell't I know the name but I
don't know, I couldn't list hismovies off the top of my head,
like once you tell me I'll belike, oh yeah, that's him.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
But that's.
He did one of the Supermanmovies.
I think too Lethal.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Weapon, the Goonies, superman 2, superman the first
one, the Omen, no kidding.
So I wonder if one of hisskills is either in directing or
choosing projects that give youa glimpse into real life?
Yeah, because that's the sortof thing that you're right you
(32:47):
often get.
It's a curated scripted likethis is what we think people
sound like.
This is what we think kidssound like.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
And the rest of the movie doesn't have that.
Well, there are moments.
There actually are moments,because there's the moment when
they interview the woman who wasthe head of the cleaning ladies
.
They're sitting around a tableand she's sort of chatting, but
that still is a little bit morecurated because we need the
snippets of what she wants tosay that we need for the
storyline, the opening scene.
(33:16):
There's nothing that's movingthe story forward, it's just
sort of setting the stage, thecontext setting, and so it is
like it just feels more whole inits own as opposed to serving
anything, cause the only thingit serves is to introduce us to,
to Jack.
So, anyway, so that that wassomething that I wanted to, um,
just quickly note, because itreally, as I pressed, play it
(33:39):
like, really stuck out to me.
And the other another thing isI want to talk briefly about, um
, uh, gender in this.
I am the truth construction.
So fancy, who you remember withthe propellers, like she is a
trophy wife, I mean, that's justall she is.
She's like bubbly blonde andshe, she tells the story of how
(34:02):
they met.
She was working in the CD barand that's the propellers thing.
She had propellers on her boobsand you know she says something
like you know, he, he picked meup and he brought me here and
he got me new hair and he got menew boobs.
And you know it got you knowlike he made her who she is now
and then, which leads to a veryfunny moment when Eric says
(34:24):
fancy, what did your boobs looklike before?
But, um, but in that wholeconversation where she gets kind
of a lot of screen time andlines, she says he was coming
back from I don't remember,maybe Oklahoma city or something
, where his ex is in a loony binand us says it doesn't matter
(34:45):
what I was doing.
So she says, well, it mattersbecause I could end up there or
something along those lines.
She expresses fear that shewill also end up in the.
And is this Eric's mother?
No, I don't think so.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
So is Eric's mother dead.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
They don't ever name her.
I don't believe that she's dead, but I don't know.
But they don't ever talk abouther.
So he's, he's come from themilitary academy where he is,
you know, boarding school, buthe says something like it's the
(35:23):
U?
S, says something like it's myweek, which doesn't the dialogue
doesn't sound like he's homeI'm putting quotes around that
word but rather that he'svisiting, but I they never say
explicitly so I couldn't, Idon't know.
Okay, I don't know.
But the impression I she saidhis last wife, okay, she didn't
(35:46):
say like your mom or eric's momor anything so which are not
mutually exclusive, but Eric'ssitting there.
So yeah, like within theuniverse of the toy I do not
believe it was meant to beEric's mom that they were
talking might put her in amental institution and and
(36:12):
presumably, you know, upgrade toan even younger model that he
can give even bigger boobs, likeit kind of goes without comment
.
You know, it's not like it'snot the central thing, it's just
like additional evidence thatthis guy gets what he wants.
(36:32):
But it stuck out to me, youknow, as I was watching it this
time and I think that you knowthe actress.
She does a good job, like thecharacter is fun and funny and
like, uh, you know, and acaricature, but you know, like
(36:55):
that's kind of what you expectyeah, um, this is not a movie
you go for depth and nuance inthe characters.
yeah, right, um, and, andthere's, you know, certainly,
like they were self-consciouslythey thought they were making
specific statements about race.
I don't think theyself-consciously were making
(37:16):
statements about gender, and yetthere they were in the ways
that this powerful man uses hispower over women as well.
So that was another thing thatI wanted to sort of like
articulate.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
So my spouse and I were recording this the week
after Thanksgiving we just cameback from.
We were in Asheville, northCarolina, visiting my in-laws
for Thanksgiving.
And one of the things there isa serious problem with
homelessness in Asheville andthe it's a blue dot in a red
(37:55):
state and there are a lot ofhomeless shelters with vacancies
, not because there aren'tenough people to fill them, but
because the shelters requireresidents to stay on their meds
and do the things that need tobe done.
And many, many, many of thesefolks have mental illness issues
(38:17):
with that kind of problem.
And so it got me and my spousetalking about how to handle that
, because it was in the likeabout the 80s when the
psychiatric institutions wereforced to release people rather
than have involuntary holds.
And you know it's it's oneproblem for another, and so my
(38:45):
husband and I were we're on twosides of this Cause.
He's like you know.
I feel like it would be, youknow, less bad if we were able
to help people this way, youknow, and and like they're, they
have to be in this, thisinstitution, and take their
medication, and I understandwhere he's coming from and how
that that would be like in someways safer.
(39:05):
But on the other hand I keptsaying to him I was like, but
women so often wereinstitutionalized against their
will because they pissed off aman in their life, because they
were quote, unquote, uppity.
And I asked him, like, have youread the Yellow Wallpaper by
Charlotte Perkins Gilman?
And he's like, no, I'm notfamiliar with it.
She was not institutionalizedbut, gilman, she was forced on
(39:30):
bed rest, which basically meantshe was not allowed to do
anything.
She was stuck in a room, couldgo outside for like a half hour
a day.
Anything she was stuck in aroom could go outside for like a
half hour a day.
And because anything that couldtrigger her hysteria, including
writing or painting or visitingfriends or anything like that,
(39:50):
was too inciting of any kind ofhumors, and so she went a little
bit nuts because she was youthink she went a little bit nuts
because she was.
You think, yeah, um, and so Iam very cognizant of the
imbalance of power when you know, bitches, be crazy is just a
(40:13):
given in our world.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And so did not expect that to come up in the toy.
But you know, fancy having thatconcern is not unfounded.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
No, well, his ex is in one.
Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, she's,she's, it's real, it's real, and
at one point and she she's, sheplays, I mean she's supposed to
be like this dizzy blonde, butshe's savvy enough to understand
(40:47):
what she is.
To me, it's clear she's playingthe part.
This is the part she's expectedto play, and so she's playing
it and it's working for her.
I mean, she's living in amansion.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Well, I mean that's, and so that means she's in a
similar situation as Jack.
Yes, yes, it does.
Capitalism is that you arestuck playing a part to survive
(41:19):
or thrive, but you know that itcan be taken away from you at
any time, and you might have totake your pants down.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Yeah, and actually that scene, that's exactly it.
So the scene where you learnthe word litigious Jack comes in
to apply for the cleaning ladyjob and the job is for a lady.
It's explicit that they'relooking for a woman and so he's
talking to Ned Beatty who issaying you're overqualified for
this job.
You're a journalist.
This is a cleaning lady job andalso lady, and so he's kind of
(41:50):
leaving but he sort of passive,aggressively, threatens to sue.
That's where you remember thelitigious, threatens to sue.
That's where you remember thelitigious.
And Beatty says to him is itreally that bad out there?
And Jack, richard Pryor, saysit's worse.
And then you know, fast forward,whatever like 65, 75 minutes.
(42:13):
And there's the scene with him,with, um, ned Beatty's
Morehouse being forced to takehis pants down and standing
there with his boxer shorts, uhand as so now he's pulled his
pants back out and jack isleaving that pants back up and
jack is leaving the room and hestops and they they talk for a
minute and jack says now tomrhouse is it really that bad
(42:36):
out there?
And Mr Morehouse says it'sworse.
So I think that the characterssay what you just said, which is
, you know, it's another one ofthose give with one hand and
(42:58):
take with the other.
Right, because I feel likewe're given this just absolute,
like indictment of this world inwhich we live, but we're also
given a happy ending where theperpetrator of this oppression,
the perpetrator of thisindignity and, you know, harm
(43:25):
gets a warm, sappy ending withhis son.
He gets redeemed withoutactually having done any work
yeah so because he reallydoesn't.
I mean, like the work he does,is that like Pryor's?
Like no, you got to talk to himhere.
I'm with him and we'll do somerole play.
I'm him, you're you, hey dad,come on dad.
(43:47):
And then Richard Pryor likesits on Jackie Gleason's lap,
and then there's a like a joke,that fancy walks in and says you
ass, you kinky bastard, orsomething like that.
You know, but he doesn'tactually do any work, he's
embarrassed.
That's the work he does, he'sembarrassed.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
You know, this kind of goes along with what I was
thinking about, what I mentionedearlier about how it was the
colorblind and non-racist ratherthan anti-racist, colorblind
and non-racist rather thananti-racist.
There's, whenever there's apush forward and like a
progressive push forward,there's always like a backlash,
and I think one of thebacklashes that we experienced
(44:31):
as kids that, um, like we didn'tknow at the time was that we
were fed this idea that rightswere granted by well-meaning
white people to black folks inthe same way that rights were
granted to women by well-meaningmen.
Because I did not have the sensethat, like you know, no, you
(44:54):
stand up and scream until you'rehoarse and make a nuisance of
yourself and you grab yourrights.
I did not get that sense at allwhen I was growing up, to the
point where it surprised me tolearn that Rosa Parks had
Training, training.
(45:14):
I thought like we were toldthis story of like she was tired
and didn't want to take itanymore, so like there is
nothing you can do unless thatmoment is thrust on you Until
the inspiration strikes.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was definitely the story we
were given.
And so and this movie is likereiterating that I mean it's
like both right, because Jackcertainly takes action, very
much so repeatedly.
You know the newspaper, theparty like he takes action, but
(45:49):
still within the script it is uscoming to.
His own kind of decision iswhat is successful.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
And in the days since the election this year, that's
kind of what we're seeing, wherewe see people like why are you
letting politics get in the wayof our relationship?
Are like why are you lettingpolitics get in the way of our
relationship?
And it's that same sort ofthing, Like if you're just nice
to the people who are oppressingyou, they'll stop oppressing
(46:25):
you.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
That's exactly that.
So thank you for saying it thatway, because that is exactly.
Except that Jack wasn't nice toyou Es Well, but when he's
saying but he was nice to Eric.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
He't nice to us Well, but when he's but he was nice
to Eric, he wasn't Eric.
And then when, jack, when, whenuh us is like I don't know how
to, how to be a father to my son, he does coach him, that's true
.
Let's try to help him.
Then, yes, you're right, yes,so like he sees, like he sees a
man in need, and he helps him,even though this man is awful,
(46:58):
awful.
Speaker 1 (47:01):
So awful.
So US actually says to Jackwhen he first meets him I want
him to know that having moneymeans never having to say you're
sorry, like Jackie Gleason saysthat explicitly.
So you know we're meant to like.
So there's, there's certainlylike an indictment, but then
he's given, he's given theredemption arc without, as I say
(47:23):
, without actually payingconsequences, not really.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
So so anyway, we are meant to empathize with Jackie
Gleason's character in some way,eventually, eventually, and I
think some of that has to dowith the very American sense of
(47:50):
like.
We're not poor, we'retemporarily embarrassed
millionaires.
Mm-hmm embarrassed millionaires, because part of seeing these,
this, this film and many otherpieces of pop culture is I.
I want to.
(48:11):
I want to see how the other halflives and I want I, and someday
that'll be me Like I'll be theone with the piranhas keeping
the hoi polloi out, and so Ithink there's some of that and
that's a very Americansensibility.
I'm not saying that it's not,it doesn't happen elsewhere, but
there's something particularabout the way that Americans
(48:34):
look at money, at wealth, atwealth as morality and all of
that, and the happy ending forJack is having enough money.
So even though it's anindictment of capitalism, it's
also a celebration of it in alot of ways.
(48:55):
Yeah of it in a lot of ways,yeah.
And then the other aspect thatI think this is bringing up for
me is we talked during the Jawsepisode about how I thought that
I was understanding.
I had a nuanced understandingof people because I was like no
one's all bad.
(49:15):
I was patting myself on theback because like oh, that's
ridiculous that someone wouldbehave that way.
And so and I can trace thatback to things like this because
, you know, jackie Gleason'scharacter is the villain in this
movie, but we're, we're givento see that, you know, he really
(49:36):
does love his son and justdoesn't know how to, and so no
one's all bad.
And so it's this like it's a.
You know, I don't see race andI'm not like other girls.
It's the kumbaya, like we canall get together and just be
together.
And I thought that that was amore mature way of looking at
(50:00):
the world, because that's what Iwas told as a child, and I
thought it was naive to assumethat anyone is just an asshole
through and through.
But some people are assholesthrough and through.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I mean, I believe that everyone has the capacity
to make changes and also theydon't do it unless they're
forced.
Yeah Right, gain is not goingto be like.
(50:40):
It's not going to like.
Set that aside because RichardPryor was nice to his kid.
Speaker 2 (50:43):
Yeah, yeah, and that's that's the thing that I I
to this day.
I'm still struggling with um alittle bit in in the in the wake
of the 2024 election yeah, umis election is that there is no
appealing to decency for somepeople, and in some ways, it's a
(51:06):
relief to let go of that ideathat I can appeal to the decency
of any people because, as Idescribed it, I feel like I've
been pushing against the lockeddoor for 45 years and I can
finally stop.
But where did that idea comefrom?
Why do I have that in my head?
Because of movies like this.
(51:29):
Everyone has a core of decencyand as long as you ask the right
way, treat their kid the rightway, piss them off the right way
you know, piss them off theright way you can unlock it Not
too much, not too little.
You can unlock that core ofdecency, and that's just not
true.
Speaker 1 (51:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
And, like I agree with you, I think that every
human being has a capacity forchange, has a capacity for
decency and goodness andkindness, but many of them have
thrown that over.
They just don't, they don'thave any interest in accessing
it.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Yeah, I'm going to try and synthesize what we
talked about with this film, soyou'll have to help me out a bit
.
Oh, I didn't name it.
Does not pass the bechdel test.
(52:22):
Uh, I'm not surprised.
There are more than there.
There are at least two namedfemale characters, but they
don't speak to each other.
Um, okay, so 1982, the toystarring richard pryor and
jackie gleason, and this film isboth better in terms of race
(52:52):
than I expected and also wayworse, and I was expecting it to
be pretty bad.
So in the ways it's better,like I believe that Jack Brown
has like full agency and isgiven some dignity and is just
(53:14):
delightful, like, not like hemakes me laugh, not as the butt
of the joke.
I guess that's the way it wasbetter.
Richard Pryor is not the buttof the joke.
The way it's worse is the waysin which it sort of reified
white supremacy, the way it sortof was a fractal of itself, so
(53:36):
that what was happening to Jack,where people were like, well,
how much money would it take foryou to be a toy was happening
to Richard Pryor with this movie, because I think this movie was
how much money would it takefor you to be a toy.
That's the impression that Iget.
The way it's worse is the waythat like, yeah, it's an
(53:57):
indictment of the Klan and ofracism, but the real harm that
even within this film, thevillain does and a huge dilution
(54:42):
of the harm that the Klan andwhite supremacy do in the real
world, and so it's just awatered down version and so the
indictment doesn't take.
It's not as strong anindictment when it's just like a
puppet version of the trulyheinousous, villainous behavior
that happens in the real world.
(55:05):
We spent some time talking aboutgender and about this character
of fancy baits who is in manyways in a similar position to
Jack, insofar as she is there atthe discretion, at the whim of
(55:30):
Mr Bates, to be his plaything toa certain extent, um, and you
know she's decided it's betterthan what she had previously and
she knows what risks she hastaken because she knows about
the ex wife who's in a mentalinstitution and is afraid that
that may be where she will endup, which is very real.
(55:51):
And you brought in like thatreality, like just broader in
the society, especiallytraditionally to women who, like
the author of the yellowwallpaper, was forced to like
just not do anything because themen in her life didn't like the
way she behaved.
(56:11):
You talked well, we both talkedabout the ways in which this
film sort of was a stutter stepforward in the eighties, as not
racist, even though it reallyisn't anti-racist, and also
(56:34):
about the you identified as likedistinctly American although
this was written by a Frenchdude but the American kind of
reverence for wealth that thisplays into, for wealth that this
(56:56):
plays into.
So, though this exceedinglywealthy man is the villain, of
course he has a redemptive arc,because we all want to be super
rich and we don't want tobelieve that super rich people
are villainous.
And that piece, like it's, it'sa, it's about the richness, but
(57:18):
it's also about, ultimately,this ideology, this core thesis,
which has been disproven againand again, that people are
inherently good.
Good and even people who actlike assholes.
If you can just approach themthe right way and show them the
(57:39):
right kind of kindness, you canunlock their decency and they
will behave better.
Well, um, and and this film,like, really buys into that what
am I forgetting about what wespoke about?
uh, the sense that um like thisalso, it's related to that, but
(58:00):
the sense that um people don'tagitate for their own rights,
they are given them by abenevolent white person right
that that that false idea, yeah,of of how change happens is
reified by this, but by thisfilm, the idea that, um, the
powerful give up power becausethey're good people rather than
(58:22):
because they're forced to.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah .
Speaker 1 (58:26):
Oh, one last thing that I named, that we spoke a
little bit about Richard Donneras an, as a director, and
wondered if sort of that, thefrom the very opening scene of
this film and from some of thescenes in goodies that Donner
also directed, sort of the senseof like a window into something
, not curated conversation, butjust authentic somehow, which is
(58:46):
really silly to say about afilm.
But but that that, the way thatDonner is conveyed that in in a
, in those two films that wejust talked about consecutively,
we did name that as well assomething that we we don't
always see.
Whew, this was, um, yeah, Ihave to say that as I was like
(59:11):
partway into the movie, I waslike, why did I put this on the
list right now?
Why did I do this?
Why did I do this?
But but I also, like I rememberit so fondly, it was in such
heavy rotation, like I, we, Ican remember being at grandma's
house and watching it with Chris, like the three of us sitting
there watching it.
Speaker 2 (59:29):
So yeah, I also with things like this.
I find it opens up the abilityto have conversations with dad
in my head.
Yeah, like if you were here towatch it again with us and be
like what were you thinking atthe time?
And you know, do you have anyregrets about letting us watch
this?
And like that's one thing Ithink I told you after I saw
(59:54):
Nope in the theater.
Yeah, I remember I all I wantedto do was talk to dad about it
and I ended up writing a letterto Jordan Peele saying, like you
gave me an afternoon with myfather after he'd been gone for
years, and so like, and that'spart of why I feel like we're
doing this, because my spousehas told me like you know, it's
(01:00:15):
kind of sometimes feel bad whenyou know you critique these
movies that I love and like Iget that.
But I also just want to have aconversation.
I want to have a conversationwith the culture and with my
father and with, like, my past,and you know my own beliefs and
you know my kids.
You know whether or not they'reactually here with me to have
this conversation about, like,why is this art the way that it
(01:00:37):
is?
Yeah, yeah.
What?
What made this acceptable in1982?
Um, and why is it notacceptable anymore?
Yeah, um.
Are there things that we cantake from it that are good, even
though the the movie itself iskind of a problem?
Speaker 1 (01:00:52):
Yeah, yeah, uh, all right.
Well, there is one commentatorthat I thought did a really
interesting analysis, which Iwill share.
They're the person who reallyhelped me to see the fractal
nature, so I'll share that inthe show notes.
I will see you next week.
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
Yeah, Next time my dear friend Erica Plank Hagen
will be joining us to talk aboutMuppet Christmas Carol.
Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
Oh, that's right, Right in time for Christmas.
I can't wait, yep.
All right, see you then,bye-bye.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.
(01:01:37):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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