Deep Thoughts About When Harry Met Sally

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Harry says, like all men are thinking that about
cuddling after sex, and he issaying he is confidently wrong.
And Sally reacts as if he'sconfidently wrong, but the movie
doesn't necessarily show usthat he's confidently wrong.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
What others might deem stupid shit.
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
We're sisters, tracy and Emily,collectively known as the Guy
Girls.
Every week, we take turnsre-watching, researching and
reconsidering beloved media andsharing what we learn.
Come overthink with us and ifyou get value from the show,

(00:41):
please consider supporting us.
You can become a patron onPatreon or send us a one-time
tip through Ko-fi.
Both links are in the shownotes and thanks, okay.
We're good.
It's you, oh God.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
I haven't watched anything.
You're supposed to be tellingme about Harry Met Sally.
Okay, right, because I haven'twatched anything.
I'm not prepared.
I am the non-presenting sisterthis week.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
I feel like this should be in our bloopers.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1989 film when Harry MetSally, with my sister, tracy

(01:41):
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in my sister, Tracy
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in.
So, tracy, I'm pretty sureyou've seen this movie, but it's
not one we watched together.
This is not a shared movie, buttell me what you know or
remember about when Harry MetSally.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
Yeah, I have seen it.
I have seen it.
It's been a minute, um, but uh,like I mean they when I think,
when I think about it.
When harry met sally, twoscenes come to mind the deli
where she fakes an orgasm andthe old lady goes, I'll have
what she's having.
And the scene when she'sfreaking out on the kitchen

(02:22):
floor because, like, the ex gotmarried but not to her, and
she's like, and I'm going to be40.
And he's like in eight years,or something like that.
So those are the.
Those are the two scenes thatcome to mind immediately.
But I have complicated feelingsabout this film.

(02:42):
I haven't done like an analysislike we're about to do, but
just in my mind I'm like like Iloved them together, like I had
the warm fuzzies that thedirector was going for for meg
ryan.
And who is it?
Billy crystal.
Yeah, I am, um, like I reallygot the warm fuzzies.
It worked for me.
But when I I'm like this iswhere we got the phrase high

(03:05):
maintenance or where it becamelike like a thing that we were,
you know, and like I don't know.
Just I worry about what Iinternalized about romance as a
result of this movie and movieslike it as much, as I absolutely
loved it while I was watchingit.

(03:26):
So that's kind of like what'sin my brain space about when
Harry met Sally, that and Iactually have a tab open right
now of an AO three story that isa fan fiction crossover
retelling of good omenscharacters in the Harry met
Sally film.
Those are the things.

(03:46):
So yes, listener, I am a bignerd, such a nerd.
So why are we talking aboutthis film today?
Em?

Speaker 1 (03:59):
So I really loved this film.
In my 20s specifically, I sawit for the first time, I think,
as far as I can recall, when Iwas in high school.
I remember watching it at asleepover and not really having
much of an opinion one way orthe other at the time, and then
saw it again, I think, incollege, and I ended up buying,

(04:21):
showing my age, the VHS tape ofit in my first apartment.
I didn't have cable so I had,you know, my VHS collection to
watch.
It is genuinely funny.
I mean, it is a very, veryfunny movie and Meg Ryan and
Billy Crystal have amazingchemistry as two actors, two

(04:43):
comedians playing off of eachother, and there is a lot to
enjoy in this film in a lot ofways.
But, like you, there's a lotthat I internalized from this
movie that I don't think eitherNora Ephron, who wrote the
screenplay, or Rob Reiner, whodirected it and who were

(05:05):
themselves screenplay, or RobReiner, who directed it and who
were themselves like they.
They made Sally to be a NoraEphron stand-in and Harry to be
a Rob Reiner stand-in, andthough Nora and Rob were only
ever friends like they were they, they never had any romantic
entanglement and in fact theyoriginally intended for the
movie to end with them remainingjust friends, and that was just

(05:26):
not going to fly.
They created something that Ithink went in a different
direction than they intended.
I think Also very 1980s beliefsystem, heteronormativity and

(05:46):
understanding about, like, whatwomen are and what men are.
So I wanted to kind of revisitit.
What self-proclaimed feministsthink about this film?
Because I have seen both thosewho love it and they give some

(06:10):
very compelling reasons for whyit is a feminist film that is
dated and then those who justexcoriate it and say it is trash
.
And it's interesting because Ithink they're both right.

Speaker 2 (06:26):
Oh man, both and again.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
So let me just, you know, catch you up, since it's
been a little while since you'vewatched it.
I'm going to try to give a verybasic summary of the plot,
because it is, you know, it's arom-com, so the plot is kind of
the skeleton of, you know, likewhat you get in a rom-com, on
which you base the individualcharacters, the chemistry and

(06:52):
the humor.
To start, the film has kind ofthis frame that's never
explained of older couples, likein their 70s and 80s, telling
the story of how they met andfell in love, and so it's a
different couple each time andit happens like something like

(07:13):
there's one at the verybeginning of the film and then,
like every 15 or 20 minutes inbetween scenes, there will be
another couple.
So there's that aspect of it.
So we meet the first couplethere.
Then we are brought toUniversity of Chicago in 1977.
We meet Meg Ryan's SallyAlbright, who is going to be

(07:37):
driving to New York where she'srelocating because they've just
graduated with Harry Burns, whois the boyfriend of her friend,
amanda Reese.
So she and Harry have never meteach other before.
This is just something thatdoesn't happen anymore in the
modern world where everyone'sconnected but where you're like

(07:57):
oh, you're going to New York, myboyfriend's going to New York.
Why don't you guys drivetogether that sort of thing?
So it is.
Sally describes it as an18-hour drive.
So they know that sort of thing.
So, um, it is.
Uh, sally describes it as an 18hour drive.
So they have a very longovernight drive to to get to
know each other and, you know,go from strangers to.
You know two people who spendall this time in the car
together.
Harry is obnoxious prick.

(08:18):
He's a very, very funnyobnoxious prick, which meant I
didn't realize what an obnoxiousprick you are.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
You are a sucker for somebody who can make you laugh.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Someone who can make me laugh.
I overlook so much.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
It's true, it's true, I really do.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
I've seen it happen, and to Sally's credit, and
they're supposed to both be like21, 22 years old at the time,
because they just graduatedcollege.
Now, billy Crystal was 40 atthe time and Meg Ryan was 27.
Huh, so they.
It's kind of impressive howthey make Billy Crystal look

(08:58):
like he's not 40.
He doesn't look like he's 22.
He's 40.
Like he's got the kind ofslenderness of a, of a very
young man.
And Meg Ryan, you, youabsolutely believe that you like
, you kind of want to like,sweetheart, are you late for
class?
So, to Sally's credit, shepushes back on his prickery.

(09:23):
I think I just coined a word, Ilike it Consistently.
And so they stop at a diner atone point and he makes a pass at
her and she is horrified andpushes and is like you're dating
my friend who he was professingto love as they left, and so,

(09:47):
like, stop coming on to me.
And at that point, and she saysto him we are just going to be
friends.
And at that point he says youdo realize that men and women
can never be friends because thesex is always going to be in
the way she's like what do youmean?
He's like well, a man can't befriends with an attractive woman
he finds attractive becausehe'll always want to have sex
with her.
And she's like okay, so a mancan be friends with a woman he

(10:10):
doesn't find attractive.
He's like no, you pretty muchwant to nail them too.
Again, so obnoxious.
But his timing is just like.
I don't want it to be funny,but it is so.
And she said like she says okay, I guess we're not gonna be
friends then, which is a shamebecause you're the only person I
knew in New York.

(10:31):
So 1977, that's the end thatyou see them both arrive in New
York and say have a nice life.
We get another older coupletelling how they fell in love.
And then it says five yearslater and you see Sally at an
airport, like just passionatelykissing a man, and Harry comes

(10:54):
by, stops, sees them and looksand was like hey, and then like
stops and waits.
So the audience is thinkinglike, oh, he recognizes Sally
and no, actually he recognizesthe man and no, actually he
recognizes the man she's kissingJoe.
They lived in the sameapartment or same apartment
building for several years.
And so they stop and make smalltalk and you can see Harry

(11:16):
looking at Sally, trying toplace her, not figuring it out,
and then leaving, and Sallyknows exactly who he is and she
says oh, thank God he didn'trecognize me, had the longest
drive of my life with him.
Then cut to the airplane.
They're both on the same plane.
He's sitting in the row directlybehind her and he recognizes

(11:38):
her when she makes the requestfor a drink, because one of the
through lines is that Sallymakes very specific requests for
the things that she orders inrestaurants, which is apparently
based on Nora Ephron who, whensomeone pointed it out to her,
said I just want it the way Iwant it.
So it's that that jobs hismemory.
And he's like University ofChicago, right?

(12:00):
He says yes, and he's like didwe ever make it?
You know, like you know, makeit?
And she's like no, um, and thenthe guy sitting next to sally
asks hey, do you want to sittogether?
And she's like no, and billycrystal harry says yes, and so
he sits next to her.
Um, he's disgusting her again,um, but he mentions, he tells

(12:25):
her like he's getting married,um, and she's like really, I,
I'm, that's such progress foryou.
I really love seeing youembrace like joy and all of this
.
And then he ends up telling herthat basically he's getting
married so it doesn't have to besingle anymore, that basically
he's getting married so hedoesn't have to be single
anymore.
Like, he does like say goodthings about his wife-to-be

(12:48):
Helen, but he's like, and it wasjust, you know, I was so over
the whole thing.
And you know what whole thing.
You know like, oh, you knowdating.
You know you go out for a safelunch.
You like each other enough togo to a dinner.
You go out dancing, you do thewhite man's overbite, just again

(13:13):
, like you're so obnoxious, it'sso funny.
And then you know, you go backto her place, you make love and
as soon as you're done, you knowwhat you're thinking how long
do I have to lie here and holdher?
Is 30 seconds enough?
And Sally says that's whatyou're thinking.
And he says, yeah, that's whatall men think.
And she's like that's horrible.
He's like, well, how long doyou like to be held?
All night, right, yeah,somewhere between 30 seconds and

(13:36):
all night is your problem?
And she's like I don't have aproblem.
And he says, yes, you do so ifyou weren't funny.
So, yeah, that's the end of likewhat we see on the plane and
then we see her in wherever theyended up.
They're not clear what airportthey'd flown to.

(13:57):
She's on one of those movingwalkways just trying to read a
newspaper.
And he comes up to her againand like is chatting and saying
you want to have dinner tonight?
And she's like no, I'm with Joe, you're getting married.
And he's like no, no, just hisfriends.
And she reminds him that hesaid women, men can't be friends
, um, and she ends up, um, Ithink it's at this point she's
like you look like a normalperson, but really you're the

(14:18):
angel of death.
And she finally is like goodbye, harry, and leaves and so
that's the end of that.
So we see then five years lateragain.
So we get another, um, oldercouple.
And then five years later againwe see sally with her friends,
alice, who is her one friend,who's married with kids or a kid
, and marie, who is played bycarrie fisher.

(14:40):
And to the point where, whenCarrie Fisher died, this is the
movie I went to watch.
Oh, interesting, because Iadore her character.
Even though there's the, hercharacter is not someone I can
relate to.
In a lot of ways, carrieFisher's Marie has been in a

(15:03):
relationship and in love with amarried man named Arthur for
years at this point.
And so the like you see hersaying like um, yeah, I saw they
just spent $1,600 on a newdining room table.
I don't think he's ever goingto leave her.
And like Alice and Sally arelike he's never going to leave
her, like, no, like we know he'snever going to leave her.
And Marie consistently respondsyou're right, you're right, I

(15:26):
know you're right.
And that's when Sally sharesthat she and Joe have broken up,
that it's okay.
It happened on Monday, it's afew days later.
She's had some time to dealwith it and you know they've
been growing apart for some timeand it's okay.
And so Marie's like all right,so you're ready to get out there

(15:47):
.
And brings out a Rolodex andstarts like let me set you up
with this guy, let me set you upwith this guy.
And Sally says no, I'm not,like I'm over, joe, but I'm in a
mourning period, I'm not readyto date yet.
And like, both Alice and Marieare like well, don't wait too
long, because you know youremember so.
And so, like um, he gotdivorced.
Everyone said give him time,give him time.

(16:08):
Six months later he was dead.
And sally's like so you'resaying I should marry someone
quickly in case he's going todie.
And alice says well, at leastyou could say you were married,
jesus, I know.
And uh.
And marie says well, no, it'sjust you know.
If, if you don't, don't strikewhile you, while the iron's hot
or something along those linessomeone else is going to marry

(16:30):
your husband, you'll spend therest of your life knowing that
there's someone else married toyour husband.
Now, this is the aspect thatfeels like it's a time capsule.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
Because that conversation seemed reasonable
in 1989 and it is so ugly yeah,it does not feel reasonable
today yeah, um.
But to be fair to nora efron andthe film, sally is like what is

(17:05):
wrong with my friends?
Like she doesn't actually saythat, but you can see from her
face she's like criminy.
What About all of it?
So we cut to Harry with hisfriend Jess, who's played by
Bruno Kirby, at a football game,and Harry's telling the story

(17:26):
of how his wife has left him.
And there's like some trulyfunny moments in this, because
she says I don't think I want tobe married anymore and he's
like, well, maybe we can takesome time to think about it.
She's like, well, I have afriend who's going to South
America and I can sublet theirtheir apartment.
I think I'm going to go do that.
And like in the midst of hersaying that, moving people,

(17:48):
people show up.
So like he's just she's justtelling him this and and so,
like she's, harry explains thatlike there's three big guys and
one of them wearing a T-shirtsays don't fuck with Mr Zero.
And so he asks Helen, when didyou call these people to move?
And she said last week.
And so Bruno Kirby, jess, asksso Mr Zero knew you were getting

(18:12):
divorced before you do you did.
Mr Zero knew.
And then Harry says I haven'teven gotten to the worst part.
And Jess is like what's worsethan Mr Zero knowing and it's
all a lie she's having an affairand that's why she's leaving.
He knows because he followedher.

(18:32):
We then see Sally and Marie areat a bookstore and Marie
notices Harry is there and islike kind of looking at Sally,
oh, and thinks that he'schecking her out.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:47):
And Marie's like oh, you're getting checked out by
someone in personal growth.
And Sally says, oh, I know him,You'd like him, he's married.
And she's like how do you knowhe's married?
Oh, burn, yeah, yeah.
She's like how do you know he'smarried?
Well, because last time I sawhim he was about to get married.
And she's like well, how longago was that?
It's like I don't know five orsix years, so like we might not

(19:09):
be married anymore.
And he's like, oh, he neverremembers me.
Anyway, it's fine.
And then he comes up and saysSally Albright.
And she's like oh, hi, harry.
And so she tries to introduceMarie and Marie is leaving
because she is the world's bestwing woman in some ways.
So Sally tries to likebasically brush him off.

(19:32):
And but he starts by askinglike how's Joe?
And she says he's fine, I hearhe's fine.
And she's like, oh, did youbreak up?
And she said yeah, and then sheshe asked like how about you?
How's married life?
He's like not so great.
And he's like we're getting adivorce.
And she's like, oh, and likeyou see, that's when the the

(19:53):
like oh, this asshole again kindof comes down and she goes like
I'm really sorry about that.
They end up like going to getsomething to eat and bonding
over like the fact that theyboth have this heartbreak.
And we finally hear from Sallywhat happened.
She had taken Alice's daughterout to go to the circus and they
were playing I Spy and eventhough she and Joe had always

(20:17):
said they didn't want to getmarried or have kids, while
she's with Alice's little girl,the little girl sees a man and a
woman with two little kids andthe man has one of the kids up
on his shoulders and the thelittle girl said I spy a family
and and it's made um sally cry.
And so she came home and saidto joe, like we said that this
is what we wanted, but actuallythis is what I want.

(20:39):
And um, he said he didn't, andhe left and she was like and I'm
, I'm fine, you know, we didn'twant the same thing, it's okay.
So after that they're walkingand he, harry, says like I
really really appreciate talkingto you and like you're so much

(21:00):
more fun than you were in 1977.
Like you know, you used to bereally like.
You used to be really tough,tough, but now you're much
softer.
And she's like you see, thatkind of thing sounds like a
compliment, but really it's aninsult.
And he's like all right, you'restill as tough as nails.
And she's.
She says to him like you didn'tlike me because I wasn't

(21:25):
interested in you.
You made a pass at me and youhad to make that a character
flaw of mine instead ofacknowledging that it might have
something to do with you.
And he said he basically saysOK.
And he's like what's thestatute of limitations on
apologies?
And she said 10 years.
And he's like all right, I canget it just under the wire.

(21:46):
Like all right, I can get itjust under the wire.
He still doesn't say I'm sorry,though, and he asks hey, would
you like to go get dinner withme sometime?
He's like, oh, are we becomingfriends?
And he says, yeah, I think weare.
It was like the first time inmy life I have a woman friend
who I don't want to have sexwith, and she's like that's real
growth, harry.
So you see them becomingfriends, and their friendship

(22:11):
chemistry is pretty greatbecause you see them doing
things that are just fun, likegoing to museums.
He helps her like bring home aChristmas tree at Christmas.
You know they just they.
They seem to have fun with eachother, and then, eventually,
they each start dating again.
It starts with Sally goes out ona date and she encourages Harry

(22:35):
to try the same.
They both had a terrible time,and so the next day they're kind
of talking about how bad theirdates were.
And Harry shares like that hehad a panic attack in the middle
of the date because the womanmentioned that she went to I
don't remember University ofMichigan and it reminded him of
Helen.

(22:55):
And she goes oh, did Helen goto University of Michigan?
No, northwestern, but they'reboth Big Ten schools.
So just letting you know justhow neurotic he is, she says you
know what?
It's our first date out.
It's gonna be a while before wereally feel comfortable with
someone, and maybe even longerbefore we're ready to go to bed

(23:15):
with someone.
And uh, harry says, oh, I wentto bed with her.
And sally's like you did.
He's like, oh, yeah, yeah,because he's a hound.
It becomes clear that he is,just, you know, having sex with
all these women.
And that gets to the, thesenior member at the deli, where

(23:37):
, uh, they are, are talking, andshe's like so what do you do?
How do you?
You just get up and leave.
He's like, yeah, I tell him,you know, I got a early meeting,
early racquetball game.
She's like you don't playracquetball.
He's like, yeah, they don'tknow that, but they just cause
they just met me.
And uh, she says I'm reallyglad that we never got together,

(23:57):
because I would have just beensomeone that you crept out of
the house at three o'clock inthe morning Cause you had to go
clean your and irons and youdon't even have a fireplace.
And he says I think they, youknow, like okay.
And he says I think they, youknow like okay, I'm not super
proud of it, but you know likethey have a good time.
And she's like how do you know?
And so they end up having aconversation where he's saying

(24:18):
like what are you saying?
They fake orgasm, get out oftown, it doesn't happen.
And she's like look, do themath.
All women say that they havefaked orgasm at least once.
And all men think that it'snever happened with them.
You do the math?
He's like well, it hasn'thappened to me.
Um, she's like you could tellthe difference.
Like yeah, I could tell thedifference.
And then she fakes an orgasmright there in the middle of
cats is telly, um, they all havewhat she's having yes, and that

(24:46):
is rob reiner's mother.
No way, that's fantastic.
So we see them at New Year'ssaying like and Harry has had a
beard this entire time sincesince he and Helen divorced and
he has shaved it at New Year'sand that's kind of an indication

(25:07):
that he's coming a little bitout of his depression.
Shaved it at New Year's andthat's kind of an indication
that he's coming a little bitout of his depression.
And they say they're there asfriends.
But they say like, if neitherof us are with someone next New
Year's, you got a date Soonafter that they decide to set
each other up with their bestfriends.
So Harry is setting Sally upwith Jess and Sally is setting

(25:28):
Harry up with Marie.
At the dinner, marie and Jess,like there's a quick interaction
that immediately sparks fly andthey each friend asks like the
main, ask Harry and Sally likehey, are you OK with me calling
the person who's supposed to beyour date?
Like if, because I won't, ifyou don't want me to, but I

(25:49):
really feel a connection.
And both Harry and Sally werelike absolutely Absolutely, can
you wait?
Like a week.
I just don't want Harry to feelrejected, I don't want Sally to
feel rejected.
And they're like absolutelyAbsolutely.
And Jess says I'm tired ofwalking, I think I'll go with
you, and there's a cab thatpulls up immediately like taxi.
All right, let's go.

(26:10):
It's like less than 10 seconds.
And so several months later itis because that's probably in
January or so it's still coldout.
Several months later it's warmout.
Sally and Harry are shopping fora present for Jess and Marie,
who are moving in together, andthey run into Helen while

(26:32):
singing to a story with thefringe on top, uh, to a karaoke
machine and sharper image, whichleads to the best line I wish I
had more opportunity to use inmy day-to-day life, because it

(26:52):
freaks Harry out.
He then kind of takes it out onJess and Marie tells them
you're moving in, everything'slovely, but put your names in
your books right now before youforget which belongs to who,
because this dish, this $8 dish,you're going to be fighting
over in eight years.
And then you'll be singingsorry with the fringe on top in

(27:14):
front of ira, which is the manthat helen was in front of ira
anyway.
Harry says some truly awfulthings to sally because, like
nothing other, nothing otherbothers her, nothing other backs
up on her and, like you knowshe hasn't really gotten over
Joe and she's like oh, so if Ifuck somebody that'll show that

(27:36):
I'm over Joe, you're gonna haveto move back to New Jersey
because you've run out of peopleto sleep with in New York and I
haven't seen that.
Make a hell of a faint memory.
And he apologizes, and then thenext scene that you see is um,
it's a little bit later andsally has learned that joe is
getting married to a youngerwoman and, uh, she freaks out,

(27:57):
calls harry to come over andhe's comforting her because and
it's not that she wants joe back, it's that like what's wrong
with her?
Why is it that he, he wants tomarry this like cute, cute
little 22-year-old, but not me,that's the scene I remember yeah
yeah, and it's like funny anddevastating, like her sadness

(28:23):
and the like, and I'm going tobe 40.
It's like when, like someday ineight years, so in in the
process of comforting her, hekisses her, she kisses him back
and they end up sleepingtogether.
He freaks out and and leaves inthe morning.
He stays overnight but leavesin the morning and, uh, she,

(28:46):
they both, you hear them boththinking like, uh, uh, they both
think it's a mistake.
He hopes she says it first, shehopes she gets to say it first.
They go to dinner.
She says it was a mistake andhe like immediately was like I
am so relieved.
You feel the same way.
It like way too quickly.
And so she distances herselffrom him, and for very good

(29:08):
reason, reason.
So at jess and marie's weddinghe approaches her and says like
are you gonna be holding on tothis forever?
And you know, like it didn'thave to mean something.
It's like it's and she's likeforever, it happened, like it
just happened.
He's like it was three weeksago.
And uh and uh he says you knowhow, like one year to a human is

(29:29):
like seven years to a dog.
And she's like are you, whatare you saying?
Are you saying I'm the dog, yes, and like so she ends up having
having it out with him in thekitchen.
Uh, during the wedding Cause hesays, like I didn't come over
there to make love to you.
I like I came over there tocomfort you and you looked up at
me with these big, weepy eyesand you said, harry, hold me for

(29:49):
a little bit longer.
What was I supposed to do?
She's like you, you did itbecause you pitied me.
Fuck you.
And she like slaps him and likethank you, good for you, sally.
We then see several, severalweeks of Harry trying to get
back in touch with her.
He keeps calling her, keepscalling her, and he's her and

(30:09):
he's.
You see him saying to Jess, I'mthrough, making a schmuck of
myself, I'm not going to do itanymore.
Then you see him with thekaraoke machine calling her and
singing call me.
And she finally answers thephone and says like what do you
want?
He's like well, I just justwanted to talk to you.
And she's like I'm on my wayout.
He's like well, wait, wait,wait.
Are you going to the New Year'sparty?
We always said if we weren'twith anyone we'd go together.

(30:32):
And she's like no, harry, I'mnot your consolation prize, stop
, and hangs up the phone.
So on New Year's, she's at theparty having a horrible time.
He's in his apartment anddecides to go out for a walk.
He passes by some of the placesthat they had spent time
together and it all of a suddendawns on him like no, he's in

(30:55):
love with her.
He runs to the party and hesays, like the best line which
cause?
She's just like no, like I knowit's new years, I know you're
lonely, but no, I'm not going tobe your consolation prize.
She doesn't say it again, butit's along those lines and he's
like no, I'm not here because ofthat, I'm here because I love
you and I like goes through allthe things he loves.
And he's like when you realizethat you want to spend the rest

(31:20):
of your life with someone, youwant the rest of your life to
start as soon as possible.
And so she starts crying andshe's like you know, you say
things like that and make itimpossible for me to hate you
and I really hate you.
And then they kiss and that's,that's the end, except for we
now see them on the couchtalking about their love story

(31:43):
and telling about their, theirwedding where there was this
coconut cake with a richchocolate sauce on the side.
I took way longer telling thatthan I anticipated, but there's
so many gems.

Speaker 2 (31:54):
You're so funny, you're like it's a rom-com, so
you kind of know what happens,so I don't need to go into
detail.
And then the blow by blow.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
Then, 30 minutes later, I think I want to start
about talking about ways that itis feminist.
I want to start about talkingabout ways that it is feminist.
Sally, in a lot of ways, iskind of a badass in terms of

(32:23):
like knowing herself, knowing,like calling bullshit when she
sees it Like one of the firstthings that that she says to
Harry is I can't remember how itcomes up in the conversation
but he's talking about, like youknow, he thinks about death all
the time and she says itdoesn't make you deep or
anything.
And now, as a 45 year old,looking at that, I can totally

(32:48):
see the type of boy that Harryis supposed to be.
I went to college with thoseboys.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
I dated those boys, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
And he has this swaggering confidence about
himself that she immediatelypushes back on.
So, one of the things that theytalk about at the diner on that
first road trip when they stop,they are arguing about the
movie Casablanca.

(33:20):
You know whether or not IngridBergman's character wanted to go
.
And he's saying like she'ssaying like yes, of course she
wanted to go, because you knowwomen's saying like.
She's saying like yes, ofcourse she wanted to go, because
you know women are practical.
It was going to make more sensethan for her to stay with, uh,
bogart.
And he's like you would ratherhave that passionless marriage
than give up the man that youhad the best sex of your life
with.

(33:40):
And she's like, yeah, uh.
And he's like, oh, I see, youhaven't had great sex.
And when I was younger watchingthat and this is something I
wish I had recognized in myselfI didn't get how much he was

(34:00):
mansplaining her own experienceto her.
Like I took it to mean like, oh, he's someone, like he's been
around, so he's had, you know,like, lots to compare to.
And you know she has only hadone or two boyfriends or
whatever.
Like in my head I was like, ok,I understand why he's saying
that and then like there's avery funny moment where he says

(34:20):
like so who did you have thisgreat sex with?
And she's like I'm not going totell you that.
And one of the other thingsthat happens is when he says
like okay, fine, don't tell me.
She immediately shares andshe's like Shell Gordon and he's
like Shell Sheldon.
You did not have great sex withSheldon.
If you need your taxes done,sheldon's your man.

(34:41):
You need a root canal, go toSheldon.
But for humping and pumping,Sheldon.
But for Humpin' and Pumpin',sheldon is not the guy, it's the
name.
Give it to me Sheldon, you'rean animal, sheldon, ride me big
Sheldon.
She doesn't really likecontradict him, but she's very

(35:02):
much like dude, like you can'ttell me what I, what my
experience is.
Yeah, it's just gross, yeah.
And he then asked like well,why did you and Sheldon break up
?
She's like how do you know I'mnot so with him and he refers to
him as Sheldon the Wonderslongor something like that.
So like obnoxious prick.
She had a very good reason fordisliking him.

(35:24):
So I really appreciate that andI actually, when I was in my
20s and it was on heavy rotationin my VCR, I remember thinking
that the orgasm.
The fake orgasm scene wasn'tnecessarily in character for
Sally, because they show her tobe kind of like buttoned up.
But watching it this time, myfeeling is, yeah, she's someone

(35:51):
who might get easily embarrassed, but what she really likes is
like calling Harry out on hisbullshit and like she's willing
to be a little bit embarrassedin public, to really embarrass
the hell out of him.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
She also is.
She also is not embarrassed tolike ask for what she wants.
Right, like that's the wholehigh maintenance thing.
I'm putting quotes around that,like in the I like what I like,
you know, like the nora efronin in self-insert um, like which
a lot of women we've beentaught to not be okay with that.

(36:27):
We've been taught to be veryembarrassed about needing
special treatment.
So like, in that sense, thesort of being okay with being
embarrassed is completely inline.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
Yes, yes and her like it is so funny and it is like
such a testament to meg ryan'stalent that she, she, she goes
through all this, and meg ryanactually suggested this for the
scene.
Um, they, they had it that shewas just going to be, they were
going to be talking about it,about the orgasm gap not that

(37:01):
they called it back that backthen.
And she was the one whosuggested what if she just fakes
it right there in the in thecat's deli?
And they're like, yes, um, butso she goes through all of this
thing and then she stops andgives him this like sunny smile
and and and eats a little bit ofcoleslaw.
It's like it's shit eating.

(37:21):
Yeah, sunny and shit eating atthe same time.
It is a fucking ray of sunshine, totally.
So that is amazing.
Then, her response to herincompatibility with joe and her
response to like the world ofdating after joe and her friends

(37:45):
.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Like you got to get married before you die her, her
agency.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
But it comes back to the I want what I want and I
would.
And you actually even see, atone point there's um, uh, when
she says, like she wants applepie, she wants it heated, a la
mode strawberry ice cream, um,on the side, um, and like she
goes through this whole thing,well, what if we don't have like
?
And if you don't have it, thennothing, not even the pie.

(38:11):
And so it's just like she'swilling to accept nothing if she
can't get what she wants.
And that is amazing.
This is not someone who is likestomping her feet, going like I
want what I want, give me what Iwant.
It's like, give me what I want.

(38:33):
It's like this is what I want,okay, I'll move on, right, um,
whereas Harry wants what hewants and is gonna stomp and and
cry and and get a karaokemachine to sing to an answering
machine to someone who doesn'twant to respond to him.
Right, right, um.
So in that way, like Sally's apretty awesome protagonist and
it's pretty great seeing hernavigate this odd friendship

(38:59):
that takes that takes 12 years Imean, it takes 10 years to
become a friendship and thentakes even more time for them to
like become, well, not for themfor him to become someone that
she could actually love.
That was another thing that Isaw that I really appreciated

(39:20):
and I'll include in the shownotes.
A commentator and I found it onReddit, but he also has a sub
stack saying that the movie isactually about Harry's moral arc
going from a complete piece ofshit to being someone who is
capable of being in a givingpartnership and being worthy of

(39:43):
Sally, and I think I think thatthat is a fair assessment, that
is a reasonable assessment of of, uh, how the story goes.
The problem is, right, right,I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Billy Crystal is so goddamn funny that you like you
don't have to be me to forgivehim for being such a dick right,
right and then and then theconsequences are that like we're
given the message that we needto just wait and that dick will

(40:21):
turn into the guy that it's,it's.
It's like it's the beauty ofthe beast story again it's, it's
.
It's another Beauty and theBeast story.
Again it's another version ofthe Beauty and the Beast, where,
if we're we, if we are patient,we women, then this prick will
turn into someone who's worthyof our love.

Speaker 1 (40:39):
And that is even better than what I think I
actually took from this, becauseI didn't think that Harry was a
dick, I thought he was uncouth,but I thought, and I thought
the movie was telling me, thathe was right.
Now, part of that is because Ivery much internalized the idea

(41:03):
that I am high maintenance andthat I am too much.
That I am high maintenance andthat I am too much, and it seems
like, you know, harry gettingfrustrated with Sally being high
maintenance is that we aresupposed to empathize with him,

(41:25):
with him.
Yeah, there's a point wherethey show, like there's a
montage of things they're doingtogether.
And there's one point where youjust see them in a restaurant
and she's ordering and she'sgoing and going and going and
going, and you see the waiterturn from her to Harry and they
both kind of roll their eyes ateach other, and so we are

(41:46):
invited to find her ridiculous.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
We're in on the joke with those two yes At.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Sally's expense, at Sally's expense.
So the high maintenanceconversation they're watching.
They're both at home and theyare together like watching
Casablanca, like he's got it onor she's got it on.
When he calls and she saysthat's what's going on, he's
like oh, tell me what channelit's on.
So they're watching togetherand they're quiet for a minute
and there's a scene and Harrysays like, oh, ingrid Bergman,

(42:16):
total LM.
She's like what do you mean?
And he's like low maintenance.
There's two types of women.
There's low maintenance andhigh maintenance.
And she is definitely lowmaintenance.
And she said well, which one amI?
He's like oh, you're the worstkind, you're high maintenance
and you think you're lowmaintenance.
And she said I don't see that.
And his response is oh, really,waiter, I'll have the this, but

(42:41):
I want the mustard sauce on theside.
And she's like well, I justwant things the way I want
things.
And he says, yeah, highmaintenance.
And, to Sally's credit, sherefuses to accept this as a bad
thing.
But I don't know that the movierefuses to accept this as a bad

(43:03):
thing.
Agreed, and Emily did notrefuse to accept this as a bad
thing.
I took it in as like, oh, gottabe a little, gotta be.
I gotta be more like ingridbergman, more accommodating,
yeah, and that is.
And I think, like we've talkedbefore about how some some films

(43:25):
are are like time capsules, andso there are aspects of this,
and I think even the idea thatwomen are supposed to be low
maintenance, um, and men get todecide what that means because,
like, oh my god, is harry highmaintenance.
She didn't go to michigan, butit's another big 10 school.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yeah, oh my God, oh my God.
His neuroses require emotionallabor from her, and that's not
something that men talk aboutaround being high maintenance or

(44:06):
low maintenance, like Sally'sstuff.
Sally's preferences requireactual labor, like you have to
put the mustard sauce on theside or whatever, but no
emotional labor.
That's our whole thing about.
Like okay, then I just won'thave anything, she doesn't
complain about it, she doesn'tneed comforting about it.
Oh my God, this is real-timeepiphany friends.

Speaker 1 (44:34):
That is a little light bulb over Tracy's head.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
I can see it Actually a light bulb when you say men
get to decide, because men don'ttend not to see the emotional
labor that they cause, that theyleave in their wake as anything
.
They don't see it at all and so, like super high maintenance

(44:56):
dudes who require so muchemotional labor from those
around them, don't see it.
And then they think thatbecause she wants the mustard
sauce on the side, she's highmaintenance Holy shit.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
And the conflict between them because they have
sex.
And there's this great sceneafterwards where Sally calls
Marie and Harry calls Jess, andJess and Marie each have their
own phone on either side of thebed and so we get this split
screen.
It's an amazing scene.
They had to do 61 takes becauseof the way that it was set up.

(45:37):
We hear, you know, each of themsaying like what happened?
And the way that Harrydescribes it is like during was
good, but then I felt suffocated.
But she didn't want anythingfrom him.
And even when he talks aboutlike um, how long do I have to
hold her?
It's 30 seconds enough.
Like it's again, that'sphysical labor, it's physical

(45:59):
closeness that he's objecting to, and his suffocation Like it's
all in his head Cause she hasn'tasked anything of him.
Yeah, that's an amazing insight.
Yeah, and you know, again, likeprops to Sally for being like

(46:23):
I'm not doing this for you,because that's what she says
when he's like you know, let'sgo to New Year's together.
And she's like I am not doingthis for you, I am not giving
you this free labor.
It hurts, so stop.
Mm-hmm.
Whew.
So I want to talk a little bitabout, like the

(46:48):
heteronormativity.
Okay, so like the thesis thepeople say that the thesis of
the film is that men and womencan't be friends and like part
of the problem of the film isthat that proves to be correct.
They're friends and then theyend up falling in love.
And then they end up falling inlove.

(47:10):
And I would like to push backon that and saying, like the
thesis proves correct is itfeels like Harry is able to
actually see Sally as a full andcomplete human being because he
is friends with her first andthat's what was necessary for
him to get over like hismisogynistic bullshit uh-huh,

(47:31):
uh-huh so like that's it's notsaying that men and women can't
be friends and like one of thethings is like those are harry's
words, sally thinks he's nuts.
And like we don't really see anyother characters talk about it.
Like Sally asks Joe like do youhave any women friends?
He's like no, but I'll get someof them if it's important.

(47:53):
That's one of those thingswhere, like it's in the mouth of
the character, the character isclearly a misogynistic asshole.
Character does not see women asfull and complete human beings.
When he says it, and uh, youknow, this is his, his growth,
but we don't get the moviepushing back on it exactly and

(48:17):
the the movie showing likeactually no, like friendship
doesn't depend on what's betweenyour legs so that's what right.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
And and the heteronormativity I mean you
started this by sayingheteronormativity.
Like one of my best friends inthe entire world is a cis man
who is also gay, um, but likethe whole reason that he says
that men and women can't befriends assumes heterosexuality.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Yes, so that was that was like where I was going.
Next, um Cause it's.
He says, like you know, everyman wants to sleep with any
woman and it's like, no, no,that's not true.
Like that, that assumesstraightness.
Straightness, it also assumesallosexuality.

(49:02):
Like there are asexual men outthere, right, you know, even
like heteroromantic, asexual menwho, you know, do want to be in
love but aren't interested insex, right, you know?
Right, so like, okay, that that, and you couldn't do that in a
movie today yeah, like in 89,maybe they would have thought to

(49:28):
talk about gay men.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
They would not have thought to talk about asexual.

Speaker 1 (49:31):
No or transgender.
No, because that's the otheraspect of it.
I was just like I cannotimagine a a trans man or trans
woman or or non-binary personsaying, like I can only be
friends with people who are mysame gender or my same gender,
yeah, yeah, so there's, there'sthat aspect of it and we do

(49:54):
again, like we.
We see some pushback, like whenharry says like all men are
thinking that about, uh, aboutcuddling after sex, and he is
saying he is confidently wrong,and sally reacts as if he's
confidently wrong, but the moviedoesn't necessarily show us
that he's confidently wrong,except that when we see Jess and

(50:17):
Marie in bed, when Sally andHarry call them, it's in the
morning, it's like six in themorning and they are like
spooning, they're all cuddled upand asleep.
So like there is just a littlebit of like.
No, harry, you don't speak foreveryone.
The other aspect of theheteronormativity is the way

(50:38):
that women talk about marriage.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah, yes, that's where I thought you were going
initially, actually, when youbrought it up.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
So now some some of this, and this was another.
There's a very interestingyoutube video that I'll link to.
In the show notes about it's uh, I can't remember the name of
the, the channel, but they talkabout like spinsterhood in in
like a like they use anold-fashioned word to to
describe like women who arehappily single and they they say
like, actually, sally is verymuch a spinster.

(51:08):
The film has her end up married, but we need to focus on the
fact that that happened despitethe fact that she's happy to be
single.
And one of the things that theysaid was yes, she does feel
pressure to get married, butwomen today, spinsters today,

(51:32):
feel that pressure and it wasmuch harder, much worse than In
1989.
Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.
So there is that.
And that kind of comes back tolike when Alice says, well, at
least you could say you weremarried.
Yeah, I'm reminded of that linein Airplane, yep, same.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
Same.
Yeah, I'm reminded of that linein Airplane.
Yep, same same.
Yeah, yeah, listeners, there'sa line in Airplane where you
know the woman's like thisscared.
She's never been so scared andpart of the problem is that
she's never been married.
And then they make a joke aboutit.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
Yeah, and so, like the film, buys into a little bit
of the idea that women wantmarriage, yeah.
But again, sally didn't, untilshe realized she did, and it
wasn't so much that she wantedmarriage, she wanted a family.
Oh that with Joe, she wanted afamily, she wanted a family yeah

(52:22):
.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
So like she wasn't, like she didn't want a husband,
she wanted kids.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, there's adifference.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
One thing that's a little tough to watch.
I mean, this is a charmingmovie, and one of the things
that they did intentionally wasthey wanted to film it in as
many beautiful places aspossible to kind of show that
not only are Harry and Sally notseeing each other, they're not
seeing anything, they're notrecognizing the beauty that's
around them, the beauty that'saround them, but these are very

(52:58):
privileged people.
Yeah, and the conversationbetween Alice, marie and Sally
about, like men and gettingmarried and you know, arthur's
never going to leave his wifeand all of that are the problems
of privileged people.
And that's not to say thatloneliness isn't a problem for

(53:23):
everyone, everyone.
But it like getting to thatlike well, at least you could
say you were married, is is um,it's one of the reasons why I
can understand where people getfrustrated with, like rom-coms.
Yeah, um, even though, likethat's the genre, yeah, yep, but
gosh, like there's just it's aboth end with this film yeah,

(53:45):
yeah, that's where we started.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
You know something that's occurring to me about
this, and then we should, weshould probably move toward
wrapping up.
Is, you know, thinking about thethesis of the film?
I don't think this was anintentional thesis, but I'm
thinking about the fact that,like part of the takeaway for me
in in, in talking about itagain with you just right now,
is the way in which the you know, harry's heterosexual take on

(54:17):
women from the beginning isfundamentally misogynist, like
the reason he can't be friendsyou said, said this, but I'm
just, I'm just restating it thereason he can't, that Harry
can't be friends with women isbecause he doesn't see women as
people, and so the thesis I feellike not or the Sally as a

(54:41):
human being, he grows as aperson and he can't help but
fall in love, and I'm notexactly sure where I'm going

(55:07):
with this, but that as atakeaway, as an insight,
actually does feel likecomforting to a degree, right,
that, like it's, harry does growas a human right, he does
become worthy and he does itthrough, finally, like not

(55:33):
seeing Sally as just an object,and so, in that sense, like
there, I do feel like, not thedialogue, but the script does
some work to dismantle some ofthe like yucky shit that we

(55:56):
inherited in the eighties andare still working with today.
I mean the problem is and here'sthe both and the problem is
that then, like, what is thelike action step for folks, like
for women, make him see you asa human being, like this is wait
until he does.

(56:16):
For men, hopefully there isactually an action step like
open your goddamn eyes right andstop, just like.
She's not a vagina with legsRight Like, but for women it's.
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
It feels a little bit like what we were talking about
, I think, two weeks ago withthe toy, where it's like, if
you're the right kind of nice toyour oppressor.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Yes, yes, you're right, yeah, exactly Exactly.
And like I mean, and in someways, like God bless Nora Ephron
and Sally, who you know, is notfawning she doesn't get there
through fawning but yeah, I mean, it's not, it's not just about
nice, it's also about arguingwith in the right way, it's not,

(57:07):
it's not just about nice, it'salso about arguing with in the
right way.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Well, because, like Sally still does, like she
refuses his bullshit.
But when the third time theymeet each other and he, he says
that, um, that he and Helen havehave gotten divorced, um, like
she truly feels empathetictowards him.
When, like I'm trying to thinkif there was someone like that
in my life, the third time I metthem, like, that sure I'll
raise my hand to do emotionallabor for you.

(57:36):
Yeah, yeah now, to be fair toharry, he very sympathetically
listens and like hears whathappened between her and joe.
So like this is this is notjust her like oh you poor baby,
right, but it does change herand some of that is like that's
how we've been conditioned,totally, totally.

(57:58):
And like Harry has grown enoughat that point to be able to be
friends with her, to be able tolisten to her, hear her and see
her humanity in her heartbreak.
Yeah, but it's, it'scomplicated.
It's complicated and like Idon't regret loving this film,

(58:20):
like I really I don't.
There is so much in the filmthat is so funny.
And like the chemistry betweenthese two actors is just off the
charts.
Like if they had gotten twodifferent actors who didn't like
same exact same lines, likeeven did the orgasm scene, all

(58:41):
of that, it wouldn't workbecause these feel like two
people who, like we you and Ihave talked about how, when you
meet someone who just like you,connect with yeah, I do this
thing from um.
There's a gene wilder moviecalled the frisco kid where he's
a um orthodox rabbi, he's umtraveling through america.

(59:02):
He's thrown off a train and umis like dejected and he's
walking and he sees in thedistance some Amish people and
he thinks that they're otherJews and he starts running going
landsmen, and that's what Ifeel whenever I meet someone who
immediately I'm like you, me,we connect, it's like landsmen,
kindred spirits, yeah, and soeven when they hate each other,

(59:24):
there is a connection betweenHarry and Sally.
There's that chemistry, yeah,and so even when they hate each
other, there is a connectionbetween Harry and Sally.
There's that chemistry, yeah,and so.
That's like that's part of themagic of storytelling through
the film through the medium offilm.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:42):
Because, like, it wouldn't have been nearly as
delightful if it were a book,right?
You know, like if I were tryingto read this yeah, harry's
delightful if it were a book,right.
You know Right.
Like if I were trying to readthis.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Yeah, harry's just too much of a prick yeah.
Yeah.
But it's through BillyCrystal's delivery.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
And his charm.
You know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Well, I actually have a hard stop, so I'm going to
try and wrap us up, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
Just real, actually have a hard stop.
So I'm going to try and wrap usup.
Yeah, um, just real quick.
I don't think it passes theBechdel test.
Oh, they only talk about men.
I was trying to think of anexample and, uh, they talk about
a woman dating Harry.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
So okay, All right, I mean it's not a surprise based
on the other things we've talkedabout.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Uh, now the thing the woman dating Harry at that time
.
Her name is Emily and she'splayed by Tracy Reiner, so I
thought that was kind of cool.
So it's Rob Reiner's daughter.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
All right.
So let me see if I can, if Ican reflect back what we talked
about.
So I'm talking about Harry metSally.
When, when Harry met Sally here, rob Reiner, nora efron and, um
, I think, um, wow, we talkedabout so much with this.
So the the crux of the questionthat you brought to the table,
I think, is um feminist questionmark.

(01:00:59):
That's ultimately the questionthat you are you're asking
yourself and and us, of this, ofthis film, and the answer is
like yes, question mark, I guessmaybe, maybe not.
It depends on how you look at it.
So the there were.
There are things about it thatare feminist.

(01:01:20):
Sally Albright, meg Ryan.
Sally Albright is awesome.
She's a badass, she is aspinster, in the words of one of
the commentators that you read.
Insofar she's happy beingsingle, she likes things the way
she likes them and she'sperfectly content to accept the
consequences if what she wantsis not available, which is

(01:01:41):
deemed high maintenance by thisfilm.
But in fact, through ouranalysis, through my light bulb
at the top of my head blowingoff, realizing that actually is
very specific, with a specifickind of labor which is very
physical labor, think thatmaintenance is even a word that

(01:02:10):
should apply to him is very highmaintenance emotionally, when
it comes to emotional labor thatsally ends up having to do for
him.
Oh, my god, I'm still reeling alittle bit.
So like this and this.
So this insight really, like inthe meta question, in the
societal question, is like it'sreally underscoring the fact
that it is men, in aheteronormative setting, who

(01:02:31):
determine what high versus lowmaintenance looks like and,
because they are the ones kindof making these determinations,
don't even see the labor thatthey are causing in their wake,

(01:02:55):
causing in their wake.
So on the other side of Sally'slike unashamed spinsterhood, is
a lot of pressure over and overand over again, like pushing
women into heteronormativerelationships whereby marriage
is the pinnacle, like set outright, like at least you die
married.
We hear from one of Sally'sfriends about you know she needs
to get on that because shecould die any day but at least

(01:03:16):
she'd die married.
So that kind of pressure thatwe're seeing, that in some ways
is time capsule, but in someways like the movie doesn't't
fully like as a script, doesn'tfully like counter, because it
does push Sally into marriageand it also does show her, like
the scene that I remembered,where she was really sad because

(01:03:39):
there's something wrong withher that Joe didn't want to
marry her.
So there are like these momentsthat still, even though we're
given with one hand this badassSpencer, with the other hand
we're given these moments whereshe's pushed into matrimony.
So some of the the kind of likein terms of furniture of the

(01:04:00):
mind, like I named, that thishas similar lessons to the
beauty of the beast.
We women, uh, are expected tokind of like wait around for the
asshole, the monster, to betransformed into someone worthy
of our love.
You took it even further andsaid that for you personally,
like there was actually, likeyou internalize the idea that

(01:04:21):
you needed to be moreaccommodating, that being high
maintenance and thinking you'relow maintenance is actually a
sin that you needed to try toavoid committing.
And also, because of BillyCrystal's charm, this film
reified an impulse in you thatalready exists to kind of give a

(01:04:41):
pass to really bad behavior.
If it is funny, go for the joke, go for the joke, go for the
joke, go for the joke.
That was the mantra in ourhouse.
We talked a bit aboutheteronormativity, um, and the
and the what some people callthe thesis of the film, which,

(01:05:03):
in harry's voice, says that menand women cannot be friends
because the men are alwaysthinking about sleeping with the
women, um and how, likeheteronormative, that is, both
around sexual orientation, alsoaround allosexual versus asexual
, also around gender expression,like, in many ways, folks who
don't fit cis and straight andallosexual meaning that they

(01:05:26):
have sexual desire don't fitinto that.
Every man pronouncement thatHarry makes from the beginning
and we talked about the factthat maybe not a thesis but
possibly a takeaway is not thatmen and women can't be friends,

(01:05:47):
but that unless and until mensee women as fully human, they
can't be friends.
And when they do, they grow ashuman beings and can possibly
actually fall in love, so thatthey're not like trying to
negotiate how long they areforced into physical intimacy

(01:06:07):
not sexual, but physicalintimacy before they have they,
before they can split.
What else, what I got, what yougot, what I miss.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
Oh gosh Um, I think you, I think you, you.
I did it.
Yeah, I got it all.
Oh my gosh, I can't think ofanything that we mentioned, that
you didn't talk about, huzzah,that's a first.
I'm going to put this in mydiary with a little ribbon.
A little heart for Tracy.

(01:06:43):
I do just want to like a lastnote.
I think that this movie isworth watching, Like it is in,
the like it was part of, likethe historical record I can't
remember what they call it, butyou know it's culturally
significant and I think thatthat is right.

(01:07:03):
I think that that is the rightthing to do.
I think that it is the rightthing to do.
I think that it is a good movieto watch, but I think that we
need to make sure that when wewatch it, we talk about it, and
I think that's kind of where Iget with everything that we're
talking about here yeah.
Yeah Is like you can watch this.

(01:07:24):
You can be charmed by BillyCrystal and laugh at his one
liners and, like the you know,sheldon the wonder schlong is
very, very funny phrase.
But you need to make sure thatwhen you're watching it with
someone who does not have thelife experience that you and I
have, that you talk about likecan you see how?
That's a little bit of a likeproblem.

(01:07:46):
He's kind of a dick, ain't he?
Yeah?
um, and that that's.
But it's also like we need toreally like lift up, because I
kind of glossed over how badasssally is is the other aspect of
it, like I glossed over how muchof a dick harry was and I I

(01:08:08):
didn't see what a badass she was, what a badass Sally was.

Speaker 2 (01:08:11):
Yeah, yeah.
And how important it was thatshe pushed back, and that makes
sense, too, because of the wayin which we have been trained to
identify with the maleprotagonist, always as a culture
.
Yeah.
Yeah, awesome, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:08:29):
Next week I'm going to bring you my deep thoughts
about Big Trouble in LittleChina.
I have not watched that movie,I think since I was a kid Me
neither.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
So I'm looking forward to seeing how it holds
up.
All right, see you then.
See you then.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.
Thanks for listening.

(01:08:56):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Deep Thoughts About When Harry Met Sally