25 cents per day, plus expenses. No case too small!
Adam Gwon, Emily's childhood friend and award-winning musical theater writer, joins the Guy sisters today to share how Donald Sobol's Encyclopedia Brown had an outsize influence on his understanding of storytelling. The delightful format of each short Encyclopedia Brown mystery--which gave the reader all the same information the boy detective had and invited you to test your wits against that of the sleuth before checking the answer in the back of the book--taught Adam how to curate information when telling a story. These mystery stories also gave children a needed sense of order and rules for the world. But when the boy detective grows up, can pop culture grapple with the mysteries that have no answers?
If you're ready to test your observational skills against the boy detective, throw on your headphones, turn to page 119, and take a listen!
Learn more about Adam at his website
Follow Adam on Instagram
Mentioned in this episode
The Boy Detective Fails by Joe Meno
The Lamplighters by Emma Stonex
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The whole mystery genre is rooted in this idea of,
like there is an answer,there's right and wrong, there's
black and white, it's certain.
And even in trying to sort ofupend the genre and talk about
that idea in a different way, itjolts people's understanding of
what mysteries do and whatmysteries are for, in such a way
(00:21):
that, like they can't actuallyprocess the message that, like,
life is full of mysteries thatdon't have an answer have you
ever had something you lovedismissed because it's just pop
culture, what others might deemstupid shit?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
you know matters, you know what's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, my friendAdam Guan will be sharing his
deep thoughts about EncyclopediaBrown with me, my sister Tracy
Guy-Decker and you.
Let's dive in.
This week I'm really excited towelcome my childhood friend,
(01:11):
adam Guan, who is anaward-winning musical theater
writer.
His most recent show, all theWorld's a Stage, just had its
world premiere with Keen Companyin New York, where it was
nominated for both Drama Deskand Off-Broadway Alliance Awards
.
His other musicals includeOrdinary Days, which premiered
at Roundabout Theatre Companyand has since been produced on
six continents in 10 languages,and Scotland PA, adapted from
(01:34):
the cult film which alsopremiered at Roundabout and was
nominated for a Drama Desk Awardand named a New York Times
Critics' Pick.
So, adam, welcome.
Am like kind of intimidated,even though we grew up together.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's that beautiful point of connection.
We were just.
You know, we were just talkingabout our other friend who grew
up to become an MMA fighter.
So it's like the paths thatlead out of Fernwood Heights are
varied and storied.
Who knew and storied?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
So welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So Tracy and I were talking a little bit before this
about like what we know andremember about Encyclopedia
Brown.
I know this is something thatyou and I shared.
I feel like Mr Hallett, ourlibrarian at Hernwood Heights,
read Encyclopedia Brown aloud tous because there was at least
one where it was talking aboutsomeone came in from the cold
(02:33):
and his glasses fogged up andlike that was the inconsistency
that Encyclopedia Brown pointedout and Mr Hallett's like.
I wear glasses and that's nothow it works.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The physics test of Encyclopedia Brown.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So like there was that, and then there was another
one and I kind of mix up,because there was also the two
minute stories or two minutemysteries.
That was also Donald Sobel whowrote the Encyclopedia Brown, so
I'm not sure which were whichbut there was another one where
someone said it's a narrowflight away, meaning like a
narrow flight of stairs, but hewas actually saying an arrow
(03:11):
flight away meaning someone shotit, and so it was, it was how
you heard it and that, forwhatever reason, stuck in my
head so like those kinds of likelinguistic puns and things like
that really stuck with me.
And then I looked upEncyclopedia Round this morning
and I was just like, oh yeah,sally Kimball she was awesome
(03:31):
was the cooler sidekick problemthat often happens.
So those are the main thingsthat I remember about those.
I do remember really likingthose books and swapping them in
like the elementary school.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Like.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Oh, have you read this one and stuff like that.
But, tracy, I feel like theymissed you.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, I think maybe they did, Because when Adam said
that he wanted to doEncyclopedia Brown, I was like
yeah, right on, and in my headwas this like this pair of
detectives, these black kids ina cartoon show.
And I looked it up and that'snot Encyclopedia Brown.
So what was in my head isactually Billy Joe Jive and
Smart Susie Sunset, which was acartoon that was on Sesame
(04:13):
Street in the 70s and early 80s.
So it was like similar time.
I think that you guys werereading Encyclopedia Brown and I
have a feeling that Billy JoeJive was based on Encyclopedia
Brown but was a black kid.
So I don't have anything in myhead except for what I read on
Wikipedia this morning aboutEncyclopedia Brown.
I certainly have childdetectives in my head.
(04:35):
There's Billy Joe Jive andSmart Susie Sunset from Sesame
Street, but there's alsoobviously Nancy Drew and the
Bloodhound Gang from 321 Contact.
So like kid detectives are inmy head, but I actually don't
have Encyclopedia Brown in myhead.
So I'm really interested tohear sort of what has stuck for
you guys and Adam.
I'd love to hear like, why areyou bringing us Encyclopedia
(04:58):
Brown, Like what's at stake foryou, in kind of looking back at
this property?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to me that you had a
different kid detective in yourbrain from your childhood,
because part of what fascinatesme about this is just how this
idea of child detectives haspermeated childhood from
generation to generation.
The Encyclopedia Brown bookswere first written in the 60s,
and then Emily and I, of course,were reading them in the 80s,
(05:24):
and then emily and I, of course,were reading them in the 80s,
and to this day I feel like whenyou say kid detective, boy
detective, girl detective, childdetective, like everyone just
knows what that is and has somekind of association with it.
Yeah, yeah so that's fascinatingto me.
But why I think I still thinkabout these kid detectives as an
(05:46):
adult is, I think, myperspective on what those
stories meant for me and did forme as a kid.
And then looking back at themas an adult and rethinking about
them as an adult and the tropesand the genre of it.
I think about it verydifferently now and I have a
(06:06):
very specific reason why, whichI'm sure I'll get into as we
start the conversation.
But I think what's at stake forme with this is the shift that
happened between childhood andadulthood and how I view these
stories, which they feel verydifferent to me now in a
fascinating way, and so I'mexcited just to ramble on about
(06:31):
it for a little while with you.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
There's something really cool about how the art
doesn't change, but you do.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I recently experienced that, watching Stand
by Me again, for the first timesince childhood, and I know the
movie really, really wellbecause I watched it so many
times as a kid.
But it was a completelydifferent experience seeing it
as an adult.
So yeah, I definitelyunderstand there.
The story hasn't changed at all, but oh my goodness, it's a
different experience.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, totally.
So I guess just set up to talkabout Encyclopedia Brown a
little bit.
I feel the reason why I think Ispecifically went to
Encyclopedia Brown is because,Emily, like you were saying, I
feel like those books were kindof the gateway drug into not
only the like child detectivegenre but the mystery genre in
(07:18):
general.
I was just obsessed withmysteries when I was a kid.
When we were emailing aboutthis, Emily, you said that you
still had a book of the MissMarple mysteries that I gave you
when we were in middle school,which is sort of evidence,
tangible evidence, that I wasobsessed with these mysteries,
Like Agatha Christie.
There's this series called theCat who Books.
(07:38):
It was like the cat who didthis.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, we read those.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
About these like Siamese cats who helped this guy
with a mustache solve mysteries.
Yes, yeah, we read those.
And something that sets theEncyclopedia Brown books apart
from other kid detectives likeHardy Boys or Nancy Drew or Cam
Jansen which was another big onefor me as a kid is the
(08:13):
Encyclopedia Brown books areshort, individual mysteries.
So each book has 10 reallyshort chapters and each chapter
is like a standalone mystery andthey're about this kid named
Leroy Brown, who's a 10-year-oldkid in Idaville, usa, which is
(08:35):
sort of like generic Americansuburb land, and he uses logic
and observation to solvemysteries.
Hence he has this nickname,encyclopedia Brown.
Everyone calls him Encyclopediaand his father is the chief of
police in Idaville.
And I think that most of thebooks start out.
(08:59):
The first chapter, the firstmystery in each book is
Encyclopedia at dinner with hisparents at the dinner table and
Chief Brown has a case that hecan't solve like a real adult
case and Encyclopedia Brownhelps him solve the case over
dinner by observing some sort ofmisstep or logical observation
(09:22):
that Chief Brown missed.
And then the rest of themysteries in the book are
encyclopedia solving cases forthe kids in the town.
So it's all very low stakes,relatively low stakes in the
adult world.
Of course it feels very highstakes for the kids, but he's
not solving murders orembezzlement the way that the
(09:44):
Hardy Boys were doing.
He is helping the kids in thetown deal with their own issues
and there are some.
Even though each mystery is sortof self-contained, there are
some recurring characters inthis world.
He has a sort of best friend,slash sidekick, slash muscle,
(10:05):
sally Kimball, who is almost hisbodyguard.
She is the one that sort oflike will beat people up and who
the bullies are afraid ofbecause he is more of the
intellectual kind of child.
She's the muscle.
And then there's sort of a mainbad guy, this bully named Bugs
Meany, who is part of he's alittle on the nose in terms of
(10:28):
the naming there.
Yeah, yeah, meany, and what Ididn't remember until I look
back at this is that he actuallyis the leader of a gang called
the Tigers, but again, it's notreally a super violent.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
But they're like 10, you said right, they are 10.
Yes, so it's a gang of10-year-olds.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
A gang of 10-year-olds and he is always
trying to like not only like docrimes, but like pin crimes on
Encyclopedia Brown and SallyKimball, and so a lot of the
stories are like Encyclopediaand Sally having to like get out
of hot water becausesomething's been pinned on them,
on them.
(11:09):
And the amazingly fun thingabout the Encyclopedia Brown
stories is you read the storyand then you get to the end and
Encyclopedia Brown is like Iknow who did it.
And then it says like at thebottom, turn to page 119 to get
the solution.
And so the game of it is thatwhatever Encyclopedia Brown has
observed you have also observedas the reader.
It's in the story.
(11:30):
You take a moment and you goback and you try to figure out
what's at Encyclopedia C andthen you can go in the back of
the book and find the answer.
That was something that Ithought was always so fun and so
satisfying is like all themysteries had the answer.
You would flip to the back ofthe book.
It was almost like doing yourmath homework.
(11:52):
So there was.
I think as a young nerdy child,this like very much appealed to
my sense of like I'm going toget the right answer, I'm going
to figure it out and then see ifI was right, see if I was, like
, as smart as Encyclopedia Brown.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
There's also something as a storyteller.
It's like Donald Sobel isteaching you how to write a
mystery by the rules.
Like cause it's saying like hey, I've given you everything.
Yeah, and because they're likeanytime I've read an
unsatisfying mystery, it'sbecause, like you broke the
rules, you didn't give meeverything.
Or whatever.
And so, like I had forgottenthat aspect of it.
(12:28):
I'd forgotten that.
It was like, hey, can youfigure it out?
But now that you say that I waslike, oh yeah, that's why I
liked it so much.
But that's part of what.
Like it was like a blueprintfor like this is how you provide
a mystery and like why it'ssatisfying.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, there was something too about and this is
something that I think about inmy own writing the idea that a
satisfying experience of a pieceof writing means that
everything that you took in kindof means something by the end.
And that's exactly what thesemysteries are doing.
You know, there are these cluesthat seem sort of
(13:02):
inconsequential as you'rereading, but once you know the
answer, you go oh my gosh,that's why that person said that
thing, or that's why that propwas there.
It was all there for a reason.
It was leading to something,which I think is a great writing
lesson.
Like you're saying when I wasthinking about Encyclopedia
Brown, there's one mystery thatis the one that I always think
(13:28):
of when I think of EncyclopediaBrown.
I have no idea why, but there'sthis one particular one.
That's the one that I went backand re-read to prepare for our
conversation the light on us.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What happens, what happens?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
This one is so indicative of the series and I
think why I like the series somuch and why I liked
Encyclopedia Brown more than,say, hardy Boys slash Nancy Drew
, because I tried to get intothose and there was something
about them that even when I wasa kid they felt a little too
(14:03):
scary or too real.
They were about real criminalsand there was something I don't
know.
I don't know why, but I justsort of leaned more into the
world of Encyclopedia Brown,which I feel like is captured by
the one story that I alwaysthink about, which is called the
Case of the Secret Recipe, andit's about their friend whose
(14:24):
name is Beauford Twitty.
And Beauford Twitty is an11-year-old who, in the words of
Donald Sobel, is crazy aboutpotatoes and he runs a potato
museum out of his basement.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
A museum, a potato museum, an 11-year-old, with a
potato museum in his basement.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yes, and so at the beginning of the story, beauford
tells all of his friends thathis grandfather has given him
these super spuds, which arethese very special potatoes, and
that he has created this secretrecipe made from these super
(15:07):
spuds.
And everyone has to come overand try this recipe.
And also he's going to revealthe latest addition to the
potato museum, which is a potatothat's been signed by the New
York Yankees.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I'm sure Donald Sobel is no longer with us, but I
would love to just like spend anhour.
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Signed by the Yankees , signed by the Yankees.
So Encyclopedia and Sally and abunch of their other friends go
over to Beauford Tweedy's houseBeauford's making the secret
recipe.
They're like how can we helpyou?
And Beauford is like you allcan help me set the table.
So everyone goes to the kitchenand grabs different things to
(16:00):
set the table.
And then Beauford comes out andhe reveals the secret recipe,
which is simply French fries.
And they're like French fries.
And he's like yeah, haha, Ifooled you.
I thought you thought I wasgoing to make something fancy,
but I just made French fries.
And so they eat the Frenchfries.
And then they're like show usthe potato that's been signed by
(16:21):
the New York Yankees.
And he goes to get the potatoand the potato has been stolen.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Dun, dun dun.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Dun, dun, dun.
But then Encyclopedia Brown islike I know who stole the potato
.
And then it says turn to page119 to find the answer.
And so the reason thatEncyclopedia knew who stole the
potato was that when they weresetting the table, one of their
friends grabbed ketchup from thekitchen and put it on the table
(16:51):
.
And the only reason that theywould have grabbed ketchup is if
they had come early, seenBeauford making French fries and
while he was making the Frenchfries went into the basement and
stole the New York Yankeessigned potato.
And that in fact was correct.
(17:11):
That friend stole the potatofor whatever reason.
This is the encyclopedia proudmystery that has been stuck in
my head for 30 years, but Ithink it's I don't know, it's
just so indicative of the likehe he's solving these mysteries
about his 11-year-old friend'spotato museum, which I am just
(17:34):
obsessed with.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I cannot tell you how delighted I am that this
award-winning composer on ourshow is like saying the phrase
repeatedly stole the potato Like.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I am just so tickled by this.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So Encyclopedia Brown lodged in my brain so delighted
as a child.
Why I feel like we're havingthis conversation about
Encyclopedia Brown is I as anadult.
This is probably around 2010,2011, something like that.
My first musical, ordinary Days, had just premiered and I was
(18:26):
sort of looking for subjectmaterial for my next musical.
I had a commission to write amusical for Signature Theater
down in DC, close to ourhometown, and came across this
book called the Boy DetectiveFails, which is written by this
Chicago-based novelist andplaywright named Joe Minow, and
it just sort of I feel like thebook just came through the
(18:49):
Amazon recommended booksalgorithm back when algorithms
were delightful and the titlegrabbed me, of course, because
Boy Detective it rung the bellsof.
There is this EncyclopediaBrown-esque character named
Billy Argo, who was a geniuschild detective in his hometown
as a kid he would solvemysteries with his sister
(19:22):
Caroline, his younger sister andhis best friend Fenton, and
just like Encyclopedia Brown, itwas best friend Fenton and just
like in Psycho-Libby Brown, itwas like he would solve these
crimes.
He would help the police.
That's sort of like theprologue of the book, and the
book really starts when Billy,graduates from high school,
leaves town to go to college andhis younger sister stays behind
(19:46):
, tries to solve a case, a sortof dark like a murder case, and
while Billy is away she takesher own life.
And the sort of main action ofthe book starts when Billy is 30
, and he comes back to hishometown for the first time to
try to solve the mystery of whyhis sister did it.
(20:09):
And he tries to solve themystery and basically at the end
the story is him sort of comingto terms with the loss of his
sister and the way that he hasto do that is to come to terms
with the fact that there aresome mysteries in life that you
can't solve.
(20:30):
That uncertainty is actually apart of life and a part of
adulthood.
And this idea kind of blew mymind because, as I was saying
about Encyclopedia Brown, thething that was so comforting and
wonderful and satisfying aboutit as a kid was that the answer
(20:53):
was in the back and yourobservational skills.
You could figure it out and youcould flip to the back and get
the right answer, which actuallyfeels like really important as
(21:14):
a kid right, like you need tofeel a sense of security and
certainty and justice and thatthings are going to work out
things are going to be okay inthe world.
And then I read this novel thatlike totally flipped the script
on that idea from theperspective of adults, which is
like it's actually reallyimportant as adults to
(21:35):
understand that like uncertaintyis part of life and figuring
out how you deal withuncertainty is a really crucial
part of being human.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking the title of the book
you said is the Boy DetectiveFails, but as you're describing
it and the lesson you're takingfrom it, really it could have
been called the Boy DetectiveGrows Up, yeah totally so.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I read this novel, was deeply, deeply connected to
it and, inspired by it, reachedout to the author and said to it
and, inspired by it, reachedout to the author and said, hey,
would you be willing to let meadapt this into a musical?
And he replied it's funny, youshould mention this because the
(22:23):
novel actually started as a play.
He had written a play for atheater company in Chicago that
ultimately led to him writingthe story in the form of a novel
.
So he had a version of thestory that was a play and I said
well, this sounds like fate,and would you like to
(22:45):
collaborate on this musical anduse your script as a starting
off point and write this musical?
And so we did.
And what was fascinating aboutworking on this musical?
It's one of the projects sortof like dearest to my heart,
just because of the subjectmaterial, because of my
collaboration with Joe, whichwound up being so lovely and
(23:07):
special and we're sort of greatfriends now.
But it also is one of thepieces that I guess, if you know
how shakespeare has likeproblem plays that like you
can't really figure it out andaudiences are always kind of
like what's going on with thisshow.
I feel like this is one ofthose like problem plays,
because the whole point is thatbilly is not able to solve the
(23:33):
mystery that he sets out tosolve, which causes such a
visceral reaction in an audiencebeing like what the fuck?
Like?
I don't know if I can curse onthis the show has a curse word
in the title.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
so you, you're good, that's true.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah.
But it was fascinating to mebecause from the beginning of
telling the story, even in thetitle, the Boy Detective Fails.
Like the whole point it set up.
The whole point is like he'snot going to solve this mystery,
like that is the point of theshow, and yet it still causes
(24:20):
this cognitive dissonance forthe audience about that idea.
In a different way it joltspeople's understanding of what
mysteries do and what mysteriesare for, in such a way that they
can't actually process themessage that life is full of
mysteries that don't have ananswer.
And so it's fascinating andit's one of those shows that
(24:41):
we've gotten to work on it invarious productions over the
years, and every time Joe and Ishow up and like try to, we work
, keep working on it, becausewe're so passionate about this
idea of humans have to wrestlewith uncertainty.
But storytelling in a way islike so counter to that and
(25:02):
trying to it's this like verytricky dance that I I even don't
think that we have sort offigured it out yet with the
piece, but that question is likeconstantly alive in my mind
around this story and around,and I feel like it all goes back
to encyclopedia brown, becausethat's the thing that kind of
taught us that lesson as kids,which again I think is such an
(25:24):
important, valuable thing forkids to have growing up, to sort
of feel rooted, to feel mooredin a world that you feel like
you can navigate.
But then it feels so differentas an adult and even like,
especially now, like the reasonI keep thinking about it is
because I feel like the more Ilive, the more I get older, the
(25:45):
more uncertain the world becomes.
I'm sure that's true foreveryone, like in certain, like
just a human perspective, butsort of feels especially true at
the moment.
And what's interesting is JoeMinow, the novelist.
His impetus for writing thestory in the first place was
post right after 9-11, becausehe felt like the world had
(26:08):
become so upside down and all ofthe certainties that he had
felt before 9-11 sort of wentout the window, and he was using
this genre of child detectivesas a metaphor for that shift
that he experienced at thatmoment in history.
So yeah, that's my deep thoughtabout sex, katie Brown.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Something this is bringing up for me the way that
audiences reacted to that is.
Early on, tracy and I talkedabout Clue and how it seems that
anyone who encountered Clue forthe first time as a child loves
it.
Anyone who encountered it forthe first time as an adult hated
it, and it's because adultscame into it expecting there to
be an answer, whereas childrenjust enjoyed themselves.
(26:54):
They took it as it was.
They didn't need there to be aclear like this is whodunit.
They took it as it's a moviebased on a board game, so like
there is no clear whodunit,because it changes every time
you play and that's why it'sbecome a cult classic, because
like, the kids had to grow upSure and so like that to me is
(27:16):
changes in how storytelling isaccepted, kind of has to like go
through these shifts and someof it is like it is unsettling
when you go into something ithas the word detective in it,
even if it has the word fails.
Right afterwards You're likebut detective, everything's sewn
up neatly at the end, isn'tthat like you gather everyone in
(27:37):
the dining room and you twirlyour mustache and you say he did
it.
I think it's also interestingbecause another thing this is
bringing up for me is in my 20sespecially, I felt very smug
about how storytelling would bevery black and white and clear,
(27:58):
saying like pointing outhypocrisy.
I remember reading some youngadult novels where there were
very hypocritical characters andI was like nobody's that black
and white.
And we talked about Jaws lastyear, which I love, but the
first few times I saw it I wasjust like no mayor would be that
irresponsible with hisconstituents for money.
Because I hadn't lived throughCOVID yet and as I've aged I've
(28:23):
realized like, okay, so my senseof maturity, in feeling like
the world is not so black andwhite, was an immature look at
the world and so like it's thisreally weird thing because I was
a very black and white thinkeras a kid and so realizing like
oh okay, people aren't just goodor bad, things don't just tie
up neatly means that like seeingstories that show hypocritical
(28:46):
characters or characters makinglike really bad decisions that
harm people is unrealistic.
To then realizing, no, actuallythat is realistic, that's based
on like people really do dothat.
It's this very interesting thingabout what storytelling can do
and what it, what we want fromit.
(29:08):
And it's this tough thing likebecause what we want stories to
make sense of, of the world.
We want stories to reflect theworld in some ways.
We want stories to be betterthan the world in some ways.
And there are some lessons wedon't want from stories.
Like we don't want stories toremind us that things aren't
always happy at the end.
You know we don't always fromstories Like we don't want
stories to remind us that thingsaren't always happy at the end.
(29:29):
You know we don't always getthe answer that you know.
You turn to page 119.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
There's something really, really fascinating.
I think you're right, adam,that you're touching on this,
like with this, that's about theexpectations that we bring to
story and the meaning that wemake.
There's only the meaning thatwe make, there's only the
meaning that we make right.
But we do it so much and we'reso conditioned that when it
doesn't happen the way we expect, as your audiences have said,
(30:00):
like it's disconcerting, eventhough it's all made up I'm
putting quotes around that right.
I mean, like there's so muchdata out there that to actually
like tell a story at all is tochoose what to share, which is
exactly what Sobel did so thatit adds up to a certain specific
meaning.
And I think I'm thinking nowabout sort of how the
(30:22):
expectation Emily points to thatwhen she talks about Clue and
children versus adults like theexpectations that we, what we
bring in with us.
I mean that's what we've beensaying from the beginning how
the actual words on the pagehaven't changed.
It's us that have changed, butit all works together to make
meaning and to create theexperience of the story.
And, like you have pointed outa couple of times, adam, that,
(30:46):
like as kids, we need and want aneat meaning, a safe meaning, a
meaning that allows us to like,feel safe to grow and learn and
try on new ideas.
But in the world of adulthoodit ain't safe sometimes, but we
still bring those expectationsof childhood.
I'm not sure where I'm goingwith this, but I think there's
(31:08):
something really, reallyfascinating that you're pointing
to that Encyclopedia Browntrained you to, delighted you
with, and then the real world,9-11 for your friend, for Joe,
like upended, and Joe's tryingto make sense of that, like
again trying to make meaning ofit.
(31:28):
It's a really fascinating likecycle of disruption and meaning
making.
That I'm finding like reallyinteresting that you're pointing
to.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, what.
I'm curious too.
You know I'm not a parent so Ican't speak to this, but it
makes me think.
You know, what is the momentwhen you allow a kid that you're
raising, when you let the sortof uncertainty or the grayness
in?
I feel like we tell all kindsof stories to kids to help them
(32:01):
make sense of the world, tounderstand how the world works
around them, how to navigate theworld, which obviously gets
more and more complicated as youget older.
And is it sort of one seismicmoment, like Joe Minow had at
9-11?
Are there gradual things thatyou see if you're raising a
(32:21):
child, where you're sort ofintroducing a child to the
complexities, the nuances of theworld and the human experience?
It's?
I'm asking the question becauseI don't know, but it makes me
think of what is that?
What is that transition fromEncyclopedia Brown to the Will
Detective Fails, you know?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, it's not a single step, right?
I mean like you even named them.
There was Miss Marple, andthere was I mean, like Nancy
Drew and Hardy Boys were alittle too scary when you were
reading Encyclopedia.
Brown, but by the time you twowere passing around Miss Marple
books.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
probably it wouldn't have been too scary, because
Miss Marple deals with actualdeath and the Cat who books were
actual, like murder mysteriesand then the cat who books were
actual, like murder mysteries,and then by the time I got into,
like I was in high school, Iwas reading.
I think by then I was readingminette walters, which is like
agatha christie's bloodless,like there's death, but you
don't actually see it.
(33:11):
There's no gore, there's nogore, whereas minette walters
you, you know what happened tothose people, but that is like
that's an excellent question,cause like and Tracy and I have
this like running joke whenyou're standing at the North
pole, any direction you go isSouth.
There's a similar thing withparenting, where any, any
(33:32):
decision you make is wrong.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So many more of those moments in parenting than I
expected.
I was not prepared.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
That is a consistent thing where it feels like you
want to protect your child butyou also want to prepare them,
and so like deciding thatbalance between protection and
preparation, and like one kidcan handle things while the
other kid can't, and you knowthose sorts of things, and it's
really really tough.
And then there's stuff that youjust can't, and you know those
sorts of things, and it's reallyreally tough.
And then there's stuff that youjust can't prepare your kid for
(34:05):
, like the things that just arejust happen.
So it's and that's sort of likewhat your friends went through
with 9-11, like I meannationally, like globally, we
went through with 9-11.
What we're going through rightnow with politically.
I had a conversation with myelder son right after the
(34:27):
election that I couldn't havewith my younger son, like where
I said I told him like Hitlergot into office by democratic
election twice and was like justso you know, having a place to
deal with that in story I thinkis so beneficial.
(34:50):
But having story whereeverything is wrapped up in a
neat bow is also reallybeneficial.
Like I know I have been runningaway into books a lot the past
few months and I know a lot ofother people do that and, like
I've always loved mysteries, andpartially because good guys win
(35:10):
, at the end, bad guy gets theircomeuppance.
You know all of that.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
It's not just that, em, I don't think it's just that
.
I think it's sort of what Adamwas talking about, about like,
there are rules.
And if you're paying attentionyou can see.
I mean it's the same as thedopamine hit when you play
Wordle.
You know it's the same dopaminehit like oh I was right, you
know it's.
I think there's something tothat and and there's actually
(35:34):
that training that you receivedfrom Encyclopedia Brown, like
turn to page 119, like oh, I wasright.
That training is important.
Now you notice things.
Now, adam, you're a betterstoryteller, you're a better
writer because Sobel trained youhow to make sure all the
choices you made were advancingthe story and not just like it's
what I said about data, likethere's a million things in the
(35:58):
room around me, but I'm, if I'mtelling a story, I'm only going
to tell you about the thingsthat are relevant to moving the
action forward that I want tomove forward.
You learn that in part fromreading Encyclopedia Brown and
having it actually spelled outturned page 119.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
And I think that's one of the things that I see as
an issue for modern discourse isthat we don't recognize how
much narrative shapes things solike.
Something I think about is likeI'm really good at knowing
whodunit in watching mysterieson TV, reading them because I've
(36:32):
read so many, I've been trainedlike, if a mystery actually
surprises me, I am delighted,and it's not because I would
make any kind of good detective,because if you're a detective,
it could be anyone in the world.
If you're reading a book, thereis an economy of characters,
but we have these narrativeswhere like, okay, there's only
three or four options, so like,x is good, y is bad, something
(36:57):
is in the middle, those are theoptions, and so I just saw this.
Recently, I wrote an articleabout ESG investing.
Something is in the middle,those are the options, and so I
just saw this.
Recently I wrote an articleabout ESG investing which is
socially responsible, investingfor environmental, social and
corporate governance.
I'm not going to get into theweeds in this, but Philip Morris
, as in the cigarette company,tobacco company, tobacco company
(37:17):
in 2023 had an 87 out of 100because they really focused on
the governance.
So they were really focusing onDEI, which, like in one way, in
some ways is like okay, I mean,I guess that's good, but people
want the narrative of like, oh,they have a good ESG score, so
I should invest in them, ratherthan recognizing how huge the
(37:41):
amount of data is and the numberof variables and how, like,
there is not a narrative.
Creating a narrative for thismeans paring it down in such a
way and it's not possible.
Sometimes the boy detectivefails.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, exactly, it's the idea that you know in
storytelling and, like DonaldSobel and Encyclopedia Brown,
you're writing it almost fromhindsight.
You know the answer and you'relike curating the steps for the
reader to arrive there andpeople do that with life also.
But it is a it's incrediblycurated, like you're saying, to
(38:17):
sort of tell the story thatwhoever's telling the story
wants to tell, and also as sortof like the readers of life, the
ending hasn't been created.
We don't have that benefit ofhindsight and the reason I feel
like we tell stories in thefirst place is because we're
just trying as best we can tomake sense of this life that's
unfolding before us, that wedon't know where it's headed,
(38:40):
and our wish fulfillment is thatwe know where it's headed and
every step was logical on theway to get there.
But often it is not and often,like you're saying, people take
advantage of the human impulseto try to curate logical steps
in order to get there and aremaybe connecting certain dots
that shouldn't be connected oronly sharing certain pieces of
(39:02):
information that are tellingonly part of the story.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Right.
There's also a sort of sensethat we want there to be sort of
one right answer, like onespecific meaning of that thing
Like even the stolen potatostory right.
Like I can imagine where, likehe's making potatoes, like a lot
of different potato dishes,people eat with ketchup, not
just the fries Right.
(39:26):
So even like the right answer,like I could imagine a scenario
in which that kid did not stealthe Yankee signed potato, he
just likes ketchup on mashedpotatoes or whatever you know
like there's a lot of differentways that one might use ketchup
on potatoes.
So it's like this is thatdouble-edged sword.
(39:46):
That is about maturity, isabout meaning making, is about
the difference betweenstorytelling and life and at the
same time, like we are alltelling stories all the time to
ourselves about what life is.
And so you and Joe were sort oftrying to say to yourselves and
to your audience, likesometimes the stories don't work
(40:07):
out neatly and we have to finda way to move forward with that.
And your audiences are sayinglike no, screw you.
I want it to make sense,because it's scary when it
doesn't make sense.
I want it to make sense becauseit's scary when it doesn't make
sense.
But that was actually the pointright.
It's scary that the maincharacter's sister died by
(40:27):
suicide.
That's terrifying andheartbreaking and it's
incomprehensible, which is whyit's not actually a solvable
mystery.
So the tension there, I think,is really really beautiful and
interesting and verydouble-edged.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, shall I reflect back some of the highlights of
our deep thoughts aboutEncyclopedia Brown.
Adam, did you share what youwanted to share I?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
think so.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So let me see if I can reflect back and you two
will nuance and add andinterrupt and edit.
So we're talking aboutEncyclopedia Brown in particular
, but also, like the childdetective, the boy detective,
like as a genre.
I mentioned Billy Joe Jive andSmart Susie Sunset who were on
(41:18):
Sesame Street, but we alsotalked about the bloodhound gang
on 321 contact and nancy drewand the hardy boys, and I can't
believe we didn't mentionscooby-doo oh yeah, we're not
children, but like they wereyoung teens I mean the bad guys
always called them meddling kids, so that's true.
so, adam, one of the reasonsthat you brought this to us is
(41:39):
because was the encyclopediabrown was sort of like a gateway
drug to mysteries in general,to the genre of mysteries, and
from there you moved into AgathaChristie and then into Emily,
moved into Minnette Walters andyou both talked about the Cat
who series.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
I don't know the author of those, lillian Jackson
Braun, what she said author ofthose, lillian Jackson Braun,
what she said.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And then you told us a specific story that you went
back and read, that stuck inyour head, about the case of the
secret recipe featuringBeauford Twitty and his potato
museum.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I just gotta say just chef's kiss for Donald Sobel's
naming skills Like Bugs, meany,beauford, twitty.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
That's just, meh, just, and I have to say it's.
I also noted I wrote this downwhile you were talking, adam,
because I thought it was so dearthat, like even the way you
talk about it, you sort of usethis like 1960s kids language.
You said they have toconstantly get out of hot water
because big bugs pin somethingon them.
Who says that, adam, what's thebig?
(42:41):
immersed in the world I'm namingthis I'm gonna meta commentary
this for a minute.
The reason I wrote it down?
Because I found it sodelightful that you were so
steeped in the language thateven the way you were telling us
about it, you used the languageof the boy detective genre to
explain to us this likerecurring pattern, which I just
(43:04):
I just found that reallyadorable.
One of the things, though, thatyou named that was so
delightful to child Adam andchild Emily and I didn't read it
was the way that Donald Sobelsort of actually didn't just
include all of the details youneeded, but explicitly said to
see how Encyclopedia Brownsolved this turn to page, and
(43:24):
you got to sort of like go backto see where the thing that was
the clue that broke the wholecase open was laid out and sort
of like check your math answers,which was pretty cool and also
sort of taught you how to begood storytellers, like how to
make sure that the data that youincluded, the details that you
(43:46):
included, actually were movingthe narrative forward, that you
curated, in adam's word, theappropriate details, not just
for detail's sake, but actuallyto advance the story, which was
pretty great, and then, as anlike looking back on it,
realizing that life doesn't worklike that.
We can't in our lives, sort oflike solve the case and turn
(44:07):
back to page 119 to see where hesaid the thing that made
everything like exposed themystery.
It's just not how life works.
Sometimes mysteries areunsolvable when the stakes are
higher than a missing potato.
And like fate gave you thisbook by Joe Neely, the Boy
(44:30):
Detective Fails.
That had been a play that youthen composed music for and have
presented as like a way to takethat genre and that feeling of
certainty that we had aschildren and really problematize
it and really say to theaudience and to yourself, like,
does life really work like this?
(44:51):
I don't think that it does andI think there's really something
interesting about human natureor at least American culture.
I'm not willing to say if it'suniversal or cultural, but
there's something aboutaudiences now, today, in 21st
century America, that say no,thank you.
I don't want to ask thatquestion, I want the answer.
(45:12):
Give me the answer.
So I think that's an importantlesson that you learned.
You and Joe learned aboutstorytelling.
So there's a lot more that's inthere that we didn't quite
unpack in a lot of these cases,like Encyclopedia Brown and
Billy Joe Jive that I wasmistaking for Encyclopedia Brown
had this female sidekick whowas the muscle, which is sort of
(45:36):
an interesting like piece ofthis trope that I think we could
probably do a whole notherepisode about the gender dynamic
in that.
Sure, I think your and joe'sstory I'd love to maybe offline
we can talk about, like the factthat the sidekick was a sister
and how that changes that genderdynamic as a sibling
relationship and the fact thatwhen her brother left she ended
(46:02):
up taking her life.
What is that?
There's a whole bunch ofquestions that I've got there
that we don't have time to getinto, but I just think there's
so much baked into this genrethat we've been trained to
understand the shape of that.
When you poked holes in thatshape and said maybe it doesn't
(46:24):
actually work like this in thereal world, audiences were
confused and unhappy.
What am I forgetting that welifted up here?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
oh, emily, you talked about the black and white
thinking and the and the desirefor things to like mean one
thing, yeah yeah, well and Welland kind of how curation like
that's how Adam described it islike we want, like it's not just
that we have these narrativesand storytelling where, okay,
you know, you go into a storyand you're like I want it to
have a tidy little bow at theend, but it's more global than
(46:57):
that.
It's that we want to veryeasily be able to say like I'm
on the right side of historybecause I'm doing X.
And we want to be able to saylike okay, I have made the right
decision.
Dust off my hands, I'm done, Idon't have to think about it
anymore from things likeEncyclopedia.
(47:22):
Brown is that there is onecorrect answer and then you can
be done and close the book andmove on.
And I think that's great for10-year-olds, but I don't think
a lot of people don'tnecessarily move on from that
and you know they don't readthat boy detective fails when
they're in their 20s or older.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Right.
I think the other thing is thatyou just reminded me of is the
fact that we bring ourexpectations to it, and Donald
Sobel taught us like rewarded usfor having those expectations
kind of play out, you know, likeif we pay close enough
attention, if we do the work,then we'll get the right answer
and our expectations will be andwe get that dopamine spike.
(47:56):
And so then, as adults, whenwhat we expect to happen doesn't
happen, it's disappointing.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I think one other interesting thing that came up
was that both of these kinds ofstories have value, that there
is value to the stories thatgive you the answer and feel
satisfying in that way, andthere's also value to stories
that upend that expectation, andI think that's part of the
(48:25):
messiness of life that we'regetting at, that both of those
ideas have value and both shouldcoexist, and one doesn't cancel
out the other, which I think isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, thank you for naming that, because in fact I
would argue that withoutEncyclopedia Brown there is no
Boy.
Detective Fails.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
And without Boy Detective Fails, we have an
incomplete picture ofEncyclopedia Brown's inhabiting
or that trope's inhabiting ofthe real world.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, my favorite professor in college who I took
a creative writing class with,he talked about how the best
short stories they end byclosing, like they close inward,
and then the best novels end byopening outward.
And I'm thinking of one of thebest novels I've read in the
(49:15):
past few years was called theLamplighters by Emma Stonex, and
it's a little like the Giver inthat the end of the novel it's
really ambiguous, what the heckhappened.
So it's similar where it's justlike you don't have answers and
it kind of doesn't matterbecause that's not the point.
The point of the story was notto get answers, because it's
(49:35):
about these three lighthousekeepers who disappeared and
there's no way of knowing whatthe heck happened to them.
And that's okay because it'sabout the journey, the narrative
of what they left behind andall of these things.
That, I think, is also likeconsidering the fact that none
of these Encyclopedia Brownmysteries were a book long
mystery, like they were each atwo minute mystery, so they end.
(50:00):
David Lynn said they closed ininstead of opening out Well,
adam.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
how can listeners learn more about you and your
work?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Oh gosh, I have a website, adamguancom, and also
I'm sort of most active onInstagram as far as social media
goes, and my handle onInstagram is guanster
G-W-O-N-S-T-E-R, so that'sprobably a good place to see
what I'm up to.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Cool, and we will link to those in our show notes.
And then next week Em right intime for 4th of July, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
I'm bringing my deep thoughts on Independence Day,
which you had not seen until,like last year, which still
blows my mind.
It's more than last year now,but it has been a while.
It's since covid.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Ridiculous, ridiculous yeah, and as we'll
get into in our next episode, itwas kind of a um validation of
muppets from space for me,because there's a scene where
they parody independence day inmuppets from space that I didn't
know it was a parody until Isaw Independence Day.
I was like, oh, oh, muppetsfrom Space, yes, yes, I do have
(51:06):
a podcast about pop culturefriends.
Yes, I do.
All right, well, I look forwardto hearing your deep thoughts
about Independence Day next week.
We'll see you then.
Adam, thank you so much forjoining us.
It was great to see you again.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Of course you as well .
Speaker 2 (51:22):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
(51:46):
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
The whole mystery genre is rooted in this idea of,
like there is an answer,there's right and wrong, there's
black and white, it's certain.
And even in trying to sort ofupend the genre and talk about
that idea in a different way, itjolts people's understanding of
what mysteries do and whatmysteries are for, in such a way
(00:21):
that, like they can't actuallyprocess the message that, like,
life is full of mysteries thatdon't have an answer have you
ever had something you lovedismissed because it's just pop
culture, what others might deemstupid shit?
Speaker 2 (00:36):
you know matters, you know what's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, my friendAdam Guan will be sharing his
deep thoughts about EncyclopediaBrown with me, my sister Tracy
Guy-Decker and you.
Let's dive in.
This week I'm really excited towelcome my childhood friend,
(01:11):
adam Guan, who is anaward-winning musical theater
writer.
His most recent show, all theWorld's a Stage, just had its
world premiere with Keen Companyin New York, where it was
nominated for both Drama Deskand Off-Broadway Alliance Awards
.
His other musicals includeOrdinary Days, which premiered
at Roundabout Theatre Companyand has since been produced on
six continents in 10 languages,and Scotland PA, adapted from
(01:34):
the cult film which alsopremiered at Roundabout and was
nominated for a Drama Desk Awardand named a New York Times
Critics' Pick.
So, adam, welcome.
Am like kind of intimidated,even though we grew up together.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
It's that beautiful point of connection.
We were just.
You know, we were just talkingabout our other friend who grew
up to become an MMA fighter.
So it's like the paths thatlead out of Fernwood Heights are
varied and storied.
Who knew and storied?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
So welcome.
Thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Oh, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
So Tracy and I were talking a little bit before this
about like what we know andremember about Encyclopedia
Brown.
I know this is something thatyou and I shared.
I feel like Mr Hallett, ourlibrarian at Hernwood Heights,
read Encyclopedia Brown aloud tous because there was at least
one where it was talking aboutsomeone came in from the cold
(02:33):
and his glasses fogged up andlike that was the inconsistency
that Encyclopedia Brown pointedout and Mr Hallett's like.
I wear glasses and that's nothow it works.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
The physics test of Encyclopedia Brown.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
So like there was that, and then there was another
one and I kind of mix up,because there was also the two
minute stories or two minutemysteries.
That was also Donald Sobel whowrote the Encyclopedia Brown, so
I'm not sure which were whichbut there was another one where
someone said it's a narrowflight away, meaning like a
narrow flight of stairs, but hewas actually saying an arrow
(03:11):
flight away meaning someone shotit, and so it was, it was how
you heard it and that, forwhatever reason, stuck in my
head so like those kinds of likelinguistic puns and things like
that really stuck with me.
And then I looked upEncyclopedia Round this morning
and I was just like, oh yeah,sally Kimball she was awesome
(03:31):
was the cooler sidekick problemthat often happens.
So those are the main thingsthat I remember about those.
I do remember really likingthose books and swapping them in
like the elementary school.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Like.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Oh, have you read this one and stuff like that.
But, tracy, I feel like theymissed you.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yeah, I think maybe they did, Because when Adam said
that he wanted to doEncyclopedia Brown, I was like
yeah, right on, and in my headwas this like this pair of
detectives, these black kids ina cartoon show.
And I looked it up and that'snot Encyclopedia Brown.
So what was in my head isactually Billy Joe Jive and
Smart Susie Sunset, which was acartoon that was on Sesame
(04:13):
Street in the 70s and early 80s.
So it was like similar time.
I think that you guys werereading Encyclopedia Brown and I
have a feeling that Billy JoeJive was based on Encyclopedia
Brown but was a black kid.
So I don't have anything in myhead except for what I read on
Wikipedia this morning aboutEncyclopedia Brown.
I certainly have childdetectives in my head.
(04:35):
There's Billy Joe Jive andSmart Susie Sunset from Sesame
Street, but there's alsoobviously Nancy Drew and the
Bloodhound Gang from 321 Contact.
So like kid detectives are inmy head, but I actually don't
have Encyclopedia Brown in myhead.
So I'm really interested tohear sort of what has stuck for
you guys and Adam.
I'd love to hear like, why areyou bringing us Encyclopedia
(04:58):
Brown, Like what's at stake foryou, in kind of looking back at
this property?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, I mean, it's fascinating to me that you had a
different kid detective in yourbrain from your childhood,
because part of what fascinatesme about this is just how this
idea of child detectives haspermeated childhood from
generation to generation.
The Encyclopedia Brown bookswere first written in the 60s,
and then Emily and I, of course,were reading them in the 80s,
(05:24):
and then emily and I, of course,were reading them in the 80s,
and to this day I feel like whenyou say kid detective, boy
detective, girl detective, childdetective, like everyone just
knows what that is and has somekind of association with it.
Yeah, yeah so that's fascinatingto me.
But why I think I still thinkabout these kid detectives as an
(05:46):
adult is, I think, myperspective on what those
stories meant for me and did forme as a kid.
And then looking back at themas an adult and rethinking about
them as an adult and the tropesand the genre of it.
I think about it verydifferently now and I have a
(06:06):
very specific reason why, whichI'm sure I'll get into as we
start the conversation.
But I think what's at stake forme with this is the shift that
happened between childhood andadulthood and how I view these
stories, which they feel verydifferent to me now in a
fascinating way, and so I'mexcited just to ramble on about
(06:31):
it for a little while with you.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
There's something really cool about how the art
doesn't change, but you do.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
I recently experienced that, watching Stand
by Me again, for the first timesince childhood, and I know the
movie really, really wellbecause I watched it so many
times as a kid.
But it was a completelydifferent experience seeing it
as an adult.
So yeah, I definitelyunderstand there.
The story hasn't changed at all, but oh my goodness, it's a
different experience.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, totally.
So I guess just set up to talkabout Encyclopedia Brown a
little bit.
I feel the reason why I think Ispecifically went to
Encyclopedia Brown is because,Emily, like you were saying, I
feel like those books were kindof the gateway drug into not
only the like child detectivegenre but the mystery genre in
(07:18):
general.
I was just obsessed withmysteries when I was a kid.
When we were emailing aboutthis, Emily, you said that you
still had a book of the MissMarple mysteries that I gave you
when we were in middle school,which is sort of evidence,
tangible evidence, that I wasobsessed with these mysteries,
Like Agatha Christie.
There's this series called theCat who Books.
(07:38):
It was like the cat who didthis.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Yeah, we read those.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
About these like Siamese cats who helped this guy
with a mustache solve mysteries.
Yes, yeah, we read those.
And something that sets theEncyclopedia Brown books apart
from other kid detectives likeHardy Boys or Nancy Drew or Cam
Jansen which was another big onefor me as a kid is the
(08:13):
Encyclopedia Brown books areshort, individual mysteries.
So each book has 10 reallyshort chapters and each chapter
is like a standalone mystery andthey're about this kid named
Leroy Brown, who's a 10-year-oldkid in Idaville, usa, which is
(08:35):
sort of like generic Americansuburb land, and he uses logic
and observation to solvemysteries.
Hence he has this nickname,encyclopedia Brown.
Everyone calls him Encyclopediaand his father is the chief of
police in Idaville.
And I think that most of thebooks start out.
(08:59):
The first chapter, the firstmystery in each book is
Encyclopedia at dinner with hisparents at the dinner table and
Chief Brown has a case that hecan't solve like a real adult
case and Encyclopedia Brownhelps him solve the case over
dinner by observing some sort ofmisstep or logical observation
(09:22):
that Chief Brown missed.
And then the rest of themysteries in the book are
encyclopedia solving cases forthe kids in the town.
So it's all very low stakes,relatively low stakes in the
adult world.
Of course it feels very highstakes for the kids, but he's
not solving murders orembezzlement the way that the
(09:44):
Hardy Boys were doing.
He is helping the kids in thetown deal with their own issues
and there are some.
Even though each mystery is sortof self-contained, there are
some recurring characters inthis world.
He has a sort of best friend,slash sidekick, slash muscle,
(10:05):
sally Kimball, who is almost hisbodyguard.
She is the one that sort oflike will beat people up and who
the bullies are afraid ofbecause he is more of the
intellectual kind of child.
She's the muscle.
And then there's sort of a mainbad guy, this bully named Bugs
Meany, who is part of he's alittle on the nose in terms of
(10:28):
the naming there.
Yeah, yeah, meany, and what Ididn't remember until I look
back at this is that he actuallyis the leader of a gang called
the Tigers, but again, it's notreally a super violent.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
But they're like 10, you said right, they are 10.
Yes, so it's a gang of10-year-olds.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
A gang of 10-year-olds and he is always
trying to like not only like docrimes, but like pin crimes on
Encyclopedia Brown and SallyKimball, and so a lot of the
stories are like Encyclopediaand Sally having to like get out
of hot water becausesomething's been pinned on them,
on them.
(11:09):
And the amazingly fun thingabout the Encyclopedia Brown
stories is you read the storyand then you get to the end and
Encyclopedia Brown is like Iknow who did it.
And then it says like at thebottom, turn to page 119 to get
the solution.
And so the game of it is thatwhatever Encyclopedia Brown has
observed you have also observedas the reader.
It's in the story.
(11:30):
You take a moment and you goback and you try to figure out
what's at Encyclopedia C andthen you can go in the back of
the book and find the answer.
That was something that Ithought was always so fun and so
satisfying is like all themysteries had the answer.
You would flip to the back ofthe book.
It was almost like doing yourmath homework.
(11:52):
So there was.
I think as a young nerdy child,this like very much appealed to
my sense of like I'm going toget the right answer, I'm going
to figure it out and then see ifI was right, see if I was, like
, as smart as Encyclopedia Brown.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
There's also something as a storyteller.
It's like Donald Sobel isteaching you how to write a
mystery by the rules.
Like cause it's saying like hey, I've given you everything.
Yeah, and because they're likeanytime I've read an
unsatisfying mystery, it'sbecause, like you broke the
rules, you didn't give meeverything.
Or whatever.
And so, like I had forgottenthat aspect of it.
(12:28):
I'd forgotten that.
It was like, hey, can youfigure it out?
But now that you say that I waslike, oh yeah, that's why I
liked it so much.
But that's part of what.
Like it was like a blueprintfor like this is how you provide
a mystery and like why it'ssatisfying.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, there was something too about and this is
something that I think about inmy own writing the idea that a
satisfying experience of a pieceof writing means that
everything that you took in kindof means something by the end.
And that's exactly what thesemysteries are doing.
You know, there are these cluesthat seem sort of
(13:02):
inconsequential as you'rereading, but once you know the
answer, you go oh my gosh,that's why that person said that
thing, or that's why that propwas there.
It was all there for a reason.
It was leading to something,which I think is a great writing
lesson.
Like you're saying when I wasthinking about Encyclopedia
Brown, there's one mystery thatis the one that I always think
(13:28):
of when I think of EncyclopediaBrown.
I have no idea why, but there'sthis one particular one.
That's the one that I went backand re-read to prepare for our
conversation the light on us.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
What happens, what happens?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
This one is so indicative of the series and I
think why I like the series somuch and why I liked
Encyclopedia Brown more than,say, hardy Boys slash Nancy Drew
, because I tried to get intothose and there was something
about them that even when I wasa kid they felt a little too
(14:03):
scary or too real.
They were about real criminalsand there was something I don't
know.
I don't know why, but I justsort of leaned more into the
world of Encyclopedia Brown,which I feel like is captured by
the one story that I alwaysthink about, which is called the
Case of the Secret Recipe, andit's about their friend whose
(14:24):
name is Beauford Twitty.
And Beauford Twitty is an11-year-old who, in the words of
Donald Sobel, is crazy aboutpotatoes and he runs a potato
museum out of his basement.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
A museum, a potato museum, an 11-year-old, with a
potato museum in his basement.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Yes, and so at the beginning of the story, beauford
tells all of his friends thathis grandfather has given him
these super spuds, which arethese very special potatoes, and
that he has created this secretrecipe made from these super
(15:07):
spuds.
And everyone has to come overand try this recipe.
And also he's going to revealthe latest addition to the
potato museum, which is a potatothat's been signed by the New
York Yankees.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
I'm sure Donald Sobel is no longer with us, but I
would love to just like spend anhour.
I know, I know.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Signed by the Yankees , signed by the Yankees.
So Encyclopedia and Sally and abunch of their other friends go
over to Beauford Tweedy's houseBeauford's making the secret
recipe.
They're like how can we helpyou?
And Beauford is like you allcan help me set the table.
So everyone goes to the kitchenand grabs different things to
(16:00):
set the table.
And then Beauford comes out andhe reveals the secret recipe,
which is simply French fries.
And they're like French fries.
And he's like yeah, haha, Ifooled you.
I thought you thought I wasgoing to make something fancy,
but I just made French fries.
And so they eat the Frenchfries.
And then they're like show usthe potato that's been signed by
(16:21):
the New York Yankees.
And he goes to get the potatoand the potato has been stolen.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Dun, dun dun.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Dun, dun, dun.
But then Encyclopedia Brown islike I know who stole the potato
.
And then it says turn to page119 to find the answer.
And so the reason thatEncyclopedia knew who stole the
potato was that when they weresetting the table, one of their
friends grabbed ketchup from thekitchen and put it on the table
(16:51):
.
And the only reason that theywould have grabbed ketchup is if
they had come early, seenBeauford making French fries and
while he was making the Frenchfries went into the basement and
stole the New York Yankeessigned potato.
And that in fact was correct.
(17:11):
That friend stole the potatofor whatever reason.
This is the encyclopedia proudmystery that has been stuck in
my head for 30 years, but Ithink it's I don't know, it's
just so indicative of the likehe he's solving these mysteries
about his 11-year-old friend'spotato museum, which I am just
(17:34):
obsessed with.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I cannot tell you how delighted I am that this
award-winning composer on ourshow is like saying the phrase
repeatedly stole the potato Like.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
I am just so tickled by this.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
So Encyclopedia Brown lodged in my brain so delighted
as a child.
Why I feel like we're havingthis conversation about
Encyclopedia Brown is I as anadult.
This is probably around 2010,2011, something like that.
My first musical, ordinary Days, had just premiered and I was
(18:26):
sort of looking for subjectmaterial for my next musical.
I had a commission to write amusical for Signature Theater
down in DC, close to ourhometown, and came across this
book called the Boy DetectiveFails, which is written by this
Chicago-based novelist andplaywright named Joe Minow, and
it just sort of I feel like thebook just came through the
(18:49):
Amazon recommended booksalgorithm back when algorithms
were delightful and the titlegrabbed me, of course, because
Boy Detective it rung the bellsof.
There is this EncyclopediaBrown-esque character named
Billy Argo, who was a geniuschild detective in his hometown
as a kid he would solvemysteries with his sister
(19:22):
Caroline, his younger sister andhis best friend Fenton, and
just like Encyclopedia Brown, itwas best friend Fenton and just
like in Psycho-Libby Brown, itwas like he would solve these
crimes.
He would help the police.
That's sort of like theprologue of the book, and the
book really starts when Billy,graduates from high school,
leaves town to go to college andhis younger sister stays behind
(19:46):
, tries to solve a case, a sortof dark like a murder case, and
while Billy is away she takesher own life.
And the sort of main action ofthe book starts when Billy is 30
, and he comes back to hishometown for the first time to
try to solve the mystery of whyhis sister did it.
(20:09):
And he tries to solve themystery and basically at the end
the story is him sort of comingto terms with the loss of his
sister and the way that he hasto do that is to come to terms
with the fact that there aresome mysteries in life that you
can't solve.
(20:30):
That uncertainty is actually apart of life and a part of
adulthood.
And this idea kind of blew mymind because, as I was saying
about Encyclopedia Brown, thething that was so comforting and
wonderful and satisfying aboutit as a kid was that the answer
(20:53):
was in the back and yourobservational skills.
You could figure it out and youcould flip to the back and get
the right answer, which actuallyfeels like really important as
(21:14):
a kid right, like you need tofeel a sense of security and
certainty and justice and thatthings are going to work out
things are going to be okay inthe world.
And then I read this novel thatlike totally flipped the script
on that idea from theperspective of adults, which is
like it's actually reallyimportant as adults to
(21:35):
understand that like uncertaintyis part of life and figuring
out how you deal withuncertainty is a really crucial
part of being human.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking the title of the book
you said is the Boy DetectiveFails, but as you're describing
it and the lesson you're takingfrom it, really it could have
been called the Boy DetectiveGrows Up, yeah totally so.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I read this novel, was deeply, deeply connected to
it and, inspired by it, reachedout to the author and said to it
and, inspired by it, reachedout to the author and said, hey,
would you be willing to let meadapt this into a musical?
And he replied it's funny, youshould mention this because the
(22:23):
novel actually started as a play.
He had written a play for atheater company in Chicago that
ultimately led to him writingthe story in the form of a novel
.
So he had a version of thestory that was a play and I said
well, this sounds like fate,and would you like to
(22:45):
collaborate on this musical anduse your script as a starting
off point and write this musical?
And so we did.
And what was fascinating aboutworking on this musical?
It's one of the projects sortof like dearest to my heart,
just because of the subjectmaterial, because of my
collaboration with Joe, whichwound up being so lovely and
(23:07):
special and we're sort of greatfriends now.
But it also is one of thepieces that I guess, if you know
how shakespeare has likeproblem plays that like you
can't really figure it out andaudiences are always kind of
like what's going on with thisshow.
I feel like this is one ofthose like problem plays,
because the whole point is thatbilly is not able to solve the
(23:33):
mystery that he sets out tosolve, which causes such a
visceral reaction in an audiencebeing like what the fuck?
Like?
I don't know if I can curse onthis the show has a curse word
in the title.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
so you, you're good, that's true.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, yeah.
But it was fascinating to mebecause from the beginning of
telling the story, even in thetitle, the Boy Detective Fails.
Like the whole point it set up.
The whole point is like he'snot going to solve this mystery,
like that is the point of theshow, and yet it still causes
(24:20):
this cognitive dissonance forthe audience about that idea.
In a different way it joltspeople's understanding of what
mysteries do and what mysteriesare for, in such a way that they
can't actually process themessage that life is full of
mysteries that don't have ananswer.
And so it's fascinating andit's one of those shows that
(24:41):
we've gotten to work on it invarious productions over the
years, and every time Joe and Ishow up and like try to, we work
, keep working on it, becausewe're so passionate about this
idea of humans have to wrestlewith uncertainty.
But storytelling in a way islike so counter to that and
(25:02):
trying to it's this like verytricky dance that I I even don't
think that we have sort offigured it out yet with the
piece, but that question is likeconstantly alive in my mind
around this story and around,and I feel like it all goes back
to encyclopedia brown, becausethat's the thing that kind of
taught us that lesson as kids,which again I think is such an
(25:24):
important, valuable thing forkids to have growing up, to sort
of feel rooted, to feel mooredin a world that you feel like
you can navigate.
But then it feels so differentas an adult and even like,
especially now, like the reasonI keep thinking about it is
because I feel like the more Ilive, the more I get older, the
(25:45):
more uncertain the world becomes.
I'm sure that's true foreveryone, like in certain, like
just a human perspective, butsort of feels especially true at
the moment.
And what's interesting is JoeMinow, the novelist.
His impetus for writing thestory in the first place was
post right after 9-11, becausehe felt like the world had
(26:08):
become so upside down and all ofthe certainties that he had
felt before 9-11 sort of wentout the window, and he was using
this genre of child detectivesas a metaphor for that shift
that he experienced at thatmoment in history.
So yeah, that's my deep thoughtabout sex, katie Brown.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Something this is bringing up for me the way that
audiences reacted to that is.
Early on, tracy and I talkedabout Clue and how it seems that
anyone who encountered Clue forthe first time as a child loves
it.
Anyone who encountered it forthe first time as an adult hated
it, and it's because adultscame into it expecting there to
be an answer, whereas childrenjust enjoyed themselves.
(26:54):
They took it as it was.
They didn't need there to be aclear like this is whodunit.
They took it as it's a moviebased on a board game, so like
there is no clear whodunit,because it changes every time
you play and that's why it'sbecome a cult classic, because
like, the kids had to grow upSure and so like that to me is
(27:16):
changes in how storytelling isaccepted, kind of has to like go
through these shifts and someof it is like it is unsettling
when you go into something ithas the word detective in it,
even if it has the word fails.
Right afterwards You're likebut detective, everything's sewn
up neatly at the end, isn'tthat like you gather everyone in
(27:37):
the dining room and you twirlyour mustache and you say he did
it.
I think it's also interestingbecause another thing this is
bringing up for me is in my 20sespecially, I felt very smug
about how storytelling would bevery black and white and clear,
(27:58):
saying like pointing outhypocrisy.
I remember reading some youngadult novels where there were
very hypocritical characters andI was like nobody's that black
and white.
And we talked about Jaws lastyear, which I love, but the
first few times I saw it I wasjust like no mayor would be that
irresponsible with hisconstituents for money.
Because I hadn't lived throughCOVID yet and as I've aged I've
(28:23):
realized like, okay, so my senseof maturity, in feeling like
the world is not so black andwhite, was an immature look at
the world and so like it's thisreally weird thing because I was
a very black and white thinkeras a kid and so realizing like
oh okay, people aren't just goodor bad, things don't just tie
up neatly means that like seeingstories that show hypocritical
(28:46):
characters or characters makinglike really bad decisions that
harm people is unrealistic.
To then realizing, no, actuallythat is realistic, that's based
on like people really do dothat.
It's this very interesting thingabout what storytelling can do
and what it, what we want fromit.
(29:08):
And it's this tough thing likebecause what we want stories to
make sense of, of the world.
We want stories to reflect theworld in some ways.
We want stories to be betterthan the world in some ways.
And there are some lessons wedon't want from stories.
Like we don't want stories toremind us that things aren't
always happy at the end.
You know we don't always fromstories Like we don't want
stories to remind us that thingsaren't always happy at the end.
(29:29):
You know we don't always getthe answer that you know.
You turn to page 119.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
There's something really, really fascinating.
I think you're right, adam,that you're touching on this,
like with this, that's about theexpectations that we bring to
story and the meaning that wemake.
There's only the meaning thatwe make, there's only the
meaning that we make right.
But we do it so much and we'reso conditioned that when it
doesn't happen the way we expect, as your audiences have said,
(30:00):
like it's disconcerting, eventhough it's all made up I'm
putting quotes around that right.
I mean, like there's so muchdata out there that to actually
like tell a story at all is tochoose what to share, which is
exactly what Sobel did so thatit adds up to a certain specific
meaning.
And I think I'm thinking nowabout sort of how the
(30:22):
expectation Emily points to thatwhen she talks about Clue and
children versus adults like theexpectations that we, what we
bring in with us.
I mean that's what we've beensaying from the beginning how
the actual words on the pagehaven't changed.
It's us that have changed, butit all works together to make
meaning and to create theexperience of the story.
And, like you have pointed outa couple of times, adam, that,
(30:46):
like as kids, we need and want aneat meaning, a safe meaning, a
meaning that allows us to like,feel safe to grow and learn and
try on new ideas.
But in the world of adulthoodit ain't safe sometimes, but we
still bring those expectationsof childhood.
I'm not sure where I'm goingwith this, but I think there's
(31:08):
something really, reallyfascinating that you're pointing
to that Encyclopedia Browntrained you to, delighted you
with, and then the real world,9-11 for your friend, for Joe,
like upended, and Joe's tryingto make sense of that, like
again trying to make meaning ofit.
(31:28):
It's a really fascinating likecycle of disruption and meaning
making.
That I'm finding like reallyinteresting that you're pointing
to.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, what.
I'm curious too.
You know I'm not a parent so Ican't speak to this, but it
makes me think.
You know, what is the momentwhen you allow a kid that you're
raising, when you let the sortof uncertainty or the grayness
in?
I feel like we tell all kindsof stories to kids to help them
(32:01):
make sense of the world, tounderstand how the world works
around them, how to navigate theworld, which obviously gets
more and more complicated as youget older.
And is it sort of one seismicmoment, like Joe Minow had at
9-11?
Are there gradual things thatyou see if you're raising a
(32:21):
child, where you're sort ofintroducing a child to the
complexities, the nuances of theworld and the human experience?
It's?
I'm asking the question becauseI don't know, but it makes me
think of what is that?
What is that transition fromEncyclopedia Brown to the Will
Detective Fails, you know?
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Well, it's not a single step, right?
I mean like you even named them.
There was Miss Marple, andthere was I mean, like Nancy
Drew and Hardy Boys were alittle too scary when you were
reading Encyclopedia.
Brown, but by the time you twowere passing around Miss Marple
books.
Speaker 3 (32:51):
probably it wouldn't have been too scary, because
Miss Marple deals with actualdeath and the Cat who books were
actual, like murder mysteriesand then the cat who books were
actual, like murder mysteries,and then by the time I got into,
like I was in high school, Iwas reading.
I think by then I was readingminette walters, which is like
agatha christie's bloodless,like there's death, but you
don't actually see it.
(33:11):
There's no gore, there's nogore, whereas minette walters
you, you know what happened tothose people, but that is like
that's an excellent question,cause like and Tracy and I have
this like running joke whenyou're standing at the North
pole, any direction you go isSouth.
There's a similar thing withparenting, where any, any
(33:32):
decision you make is wrong.
Speaker 2 (33:36):
So many more of those moments in parenting than I
expected.
I was not prepared.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
That is a consistent thing where it feels like you
want to protect your child butyou also want to prepare them,
and so like deciding thatbalance between protection and
preparation, and like one kidcan handle things while the
other kid can't, and you knowthose sorts of things, and it's
really really tough.
And then there's stuff that youjust can't, and you know those
sorts of things, and it's reallyreally tough.
And then there's stuff that youjust can't prepare your kid for
(34:05):
, like the things that just arejust happen.
So it's and that's sort of likewhat your friends went through
with 9-11, like I meannationally, like globally, we
went through with 9-11.
What we're going through rightnow with politically.
I had a conversation with myelder son right after the
(34:27):
election that I couldn't havewith my younger son, like where
I said I told him like Hitlergot into office by democratic
election twice and was like justso you know, having a place to
deal with that in story I thinkis so beneficial.
(34:50):
But having story whereeverything is wrapped up in a
neat bow is also reallybeneficial.
Like I know I have been runningaway into books a lot the past
few months and I know a lot ofother people do that and, like
I've always loved mysteries, andpartially because good guys win
(35:10):
, at the end, bad guy gets theircomeuppance.
You know all of that.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
It's not just that, em, I don't think it's just that
.
I think it's sort of what Adamwas talking about, about like,
there are rules.
And if you're paying attentionyou can see.
I mean it's the same as thedopamine hit when you play
Wordle.
You know it's the same dopaminehit like oh I was right, you
know it's.
I think there's something tothat and and there's actually
(35:34):
that training that you receivedfrom Encyclopedia Brown, like
turn to page 119, like oh, I wasright.
That training is important.
Now you notice things.
Now, adam, you're a betterstoryteller, you're a better
writer because Sobel trained youhow to make sure all the
choices you made were advancingthe story and not just like it's
what I said about data, likethere's a million things in the
(35:58):
room around me, but I'm, if I'mtelling a story, I'm only going
to tell you about the thingsthat are relevant to moving the
action forward that I want tomove forward.
You learn that in part fromreading Encyclopedia Brown and
having it actually spelled outturned page 119.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
And I think that's one of the things that I see as
an issue for modern discourse isthat we don't recognize how
much narrative shapes things solike.
Something I think about is likeI'm really good at knowing
whodunit in watching mysterieson TV, reading them because I've
(36:32):
read so many, I've been trainedlike, if a mystery actually
surprises me, I am delighted,and it's not because I would
make any kind of good detective,because if you're a detective,
it could be anyone in the world.
If you're reading a book, thereis an economy of characters,
but we have these narrativeswhere like, okay, there's only
three or four options, so like,x is good, y is bad, something
(36:57):
is in the middle, those are theoptions, and so I just saw this.
Recently, I wrote an articleabout ESG investing.
Something is in the middle,those are the options, and so I
just saw this.
Recently I wrote an articleabout ESG investing which is
socially responsible, investingfor environmental, social and
corporate governance.
I'm not going to get into theweeds in this, but Philip Morris
, as in the cigarette company,tobacco company, tobacco company
(37:17):
in 2023 had an 87 out of 100because they really focused on
the governance.
So they were really focusing onDEI, which, like in one way, in
some ways is like okay, I mean,I guess that's good, but people
want the narrative of like, oh,they have a good ESG score, so
I should invest in them, ratherthan recognizing how huge the
(37:41):
amount of data is and the numberof variables and how, like,
there is not a narrative.
Creating a narrative for thismeans paring it down in such a
way and it's not possible.
Sometimes the boy detectivefails.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Yeah, exactly, it's the idea that you know in
storytelling and, like DonaldSobel and Encyclopedia Brown,
you're writing it almost fromhindsight.
You know the answer and you'relike curating the steps for the
reader to arrive there andpeople do that with life also.
But it is a it's incrediblycurated, like you're saying, to
(38:17):
sort of tell the story thatwhoever's telling the story
wants to tell, and also as sortof like the readers of life, the
ending hasn't been created.
We don't have that benefit ofhindsight and the reason I feel
like we tell stories in thefirst place is because we're
just trying as best we can tomake sense of this life that's
unfolding before us, that wedon't know where it's headed,
(38:40):
and our wish fulfillment is thatwe know where it's headed and
every step was logical on theway to get there.
But often it is not and often,like you're saying, people take
advantage of the human impulseto try to curate logical steps
in order to get there and aremaybe connecting certain dots
that shouldn't be connected oronly sharing certain pieces of
(39:02):
information that are tellingonly part of the story.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Right.
There's also a sort of sensethat we want there to be sort of
one right answer, like onespecific meaning of that thing
Like even the stolen potatostory right.
Like I can imagine where, likehe's making potatoes, like a lot
of different potato dishes,people eat with ketchup, not
just the fries Right.
(39:26):
So even like the right answer,like I could imagine a scenario
in which that kid did not stealthe Yankee signed potato, he
just likes ketchup on mashedpotatoes or whatever you know
like there's a lot of differentways that one might use ketchup
on potatoes.
So it's like this is thatdouble-edged sword.
(39:46):
That is about maturity, isabout meaning making, is about
the difference betweenstorytelling and life and at the
same time, like we are alltelling stories all the time to
ourselves about what life is.
And so you and Joe were sort oftrying to say to yourselves and
to your audience, likesometimes the stories don't work
(40:07):
out neatly and we have to finda way to move forward with that.
And your audiences are sayinglike no, screw you.
I want it to make sense,because it's scary when it
doesn't make sense.
I want it to make sense becauseit's scary when it doesn't make
sense.
But that was actually the pointright.
It's scary that the maincharacter's sister died by
(40:27):
suicide.
That's terrifying andheartbreaking and it's
incomprehensible, which is whyit's not actually a solvable
mystery.
So the tension there, I think,is really really beautiful and
interesting and verydouble-edged.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, shall I reflect back some of the highlights of
our deep thoughts aboutEncyclopedia Brown.
Adam, did you share what youwanted to share I?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
think so.
This has been a greatconversation.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So let me see if I can reflect back and you two
will nuance and add andinterrupt and edit.
So we're talking aboutEncyclopedia Brown in particular
, but also, like the childdetective, the boy detective,
like as a genre.
I mentioned Billy Joe Jive andSmart Susie Sunset who were on
(41:18):
Sesame Street, but we alsotalked about the bloodhound gang
on 321 contact and nancy drewand the hardy boys, and I can't
believe we didn't mentionscooby-doo oh yeah, we're not
children, but like they wereyoung teens I mean the bad guys
always called them meddling kids, so that's true.
so, adam, one of the reasonsthat you brought this to us is
(41:39):
because was the encyclopediabrown was sort of like a gateway
drug to mysteries in general,to the genre of mysteries, and
from there you moved into AgathaChristie and then into Emily,
moved into Minnette Walters andyou both talked about the Cat
who series.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
I don't know the author of those, lillian Jackson
Braun, what she said author ofthose, lillian Jackson Braun,
what she said.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And then you told us a specific story that you went
back and read, that stuck inyour head, about the case of the
secret recipe featuringBeauford Twitty and his potato
museum.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
I just gotta say just chef's kiss for Donald Sobel's
naming skills Like Bugs, meany,beauford, twitty.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
That's just, meh, just, and I have to say it's.
I also noted I wrote this downwhile you were talking, adam,
because I thought it was so dearthat, like even the way you
talk about it, you sort of usethis like 1960s kids language.
You said they have toconstantly get out of hot water
because big bugs pin somethingon them.
Who says that, adam, what's thebig?
(42:41):
immersed in the world I'm namingthis I'm gonna meta commentary
this for a minute.
The reason I wrote it down?
Because I found it sodelightful that you were so
steeped in the language thateven the way you were telling us
about it, you used the languageof the boy detective genre to
explain to us this likerecurring pattern, which I just
(43:04):
I just found that reallyadorable.
One of the things, though, thatyou named that was so
delightful to child Adam andchild Emily and I didn't read it
was the way that Donald Sobelsort of actually didn't just
include all of the details youneeded, but explicitly said to
see how Encyclopedia Brownsolved this turn to page, and
(43:24):
you got to sort of like go backto see where the thing that was
the clue that broke the wholecase open was laid out and sort
of like check your math answers,which was pretty cool and also
sort of taught you how to begood storytellers, like how to
make sure that the data that youincluded, the details that you
(43:46):
included, actually were movingthe narrative forward, that you
curated, in adam's word, theappropriate details, not just
for detail's sake, but actuallyto advance the story, which was
pretty great, and then, as anlike looking back on it,
realizing that life doesn't worklike that.
We can't in our lives, sort oflike solve the case and turn
(44:07):
back to page 119 to see where hesaid the thing that made
everything like exposed themystery.
It's just not how life works.
Sometimes mysteries areunsolvable when the stakes are
higher than a missing potato.
And like fate gave you thisbook by Joe Neely, the Boy
(44:30):
Detective Fails.
That had been a play that youthen composed music for and have
presented as like a way to takethat genre and that feeling of
certainty that we had aschildren and really problematize
it and really say to theaudience and to yourself, like,
does life really work like this?
(44:51):
I don't think that it does andI think there's really something
interesting about human natureor at least American culture.
I'm not willing to say if it'suniversal or cultural, but
there's something aboutaudiences now, today, in 21st
century America, that say no,thank you.
I don't want to ask thatquestion, I want the answer.
(45:12):
Give me the answer.
So I think that's an importantlesson that you learned.
You and Joe learned aboutstorytelling.
So there's a lot more that's inthere that we didn't quite
unpack in a lot of these cases,like Encyclopedia Brown and
Billy Joe Jive that I wasmistaking for Encyclopedia Brown
had this female sidekick whowas the muscle, which is sort of
(45:36):
an interesting like piece ofthis trope that I think we could
probably do a whole notherepisode about the gender dynamic
in that.
Sure, I think your and joe'sstory I'd love to maybe offline
we can talk about, like the factthat the sidekick was a sister
and how that changes that genderdynamic as a sibling
relationship and the fact thatwhen her brother left she ended
(46:02):
up taking her life.
What is that?
There's a whole bunch ofquestions that I've got there
that we don't have time to getinto, but I just think there's
so much baked into this genrethat we've been trained to
understand the shape of that.
When you poked holes in thatshape and said maybe it doesn't
(46:24):
actually work like this in thereal world, audiences were
confused and unhappy.
What am I forgetting that welifted up here?
Speaker 3 (46:34):
oh, emily, you talked about the black and white
thinking and the and the desirefor things to like mean one
thing, yeah yeah, well and Welland kind of how curation like
that's how Adam described it islike we want, like it's not just
that we have these narrativesand storytelling where, okay,
you know, you go into a storyand you're like I want it to
have a tidy little bow at theend, but it's more global than
(46:57):
that.
It's that we want to veryeasily be able to say like I'm
on the right side of historybecause I'm doing X.
And we want to be able to saylike okay, I have made the right
decision.
Dust off my hands, I'm done, Idon't have to think about it
anymore from things likeEncyclopedia.
(47:22):
Brown is that there is onecorrect answer and then you can
be done and close the book andmove on.
And I think that's great for10-year-olds, but I don't think
a lot of people don'tnecessarily move on from that
and you know they don't readthat boy detective fails when
they're in their 20s or older.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Right.
I think the other thing is thatyou just reminded me of is the
fact that we bring ourexpectations to it, and Donald
Sobel taught us like rewarded usfor having those expectations
kind of play out, you know, likeif we pay close enough
attention, if we do the work,then we'll get the right answer
and our expectations will be andwe get that dopamine spike.
(47:56):
And so then, as adults, whenwhat we expect to happen doesn't
happen, it's disappointing.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
I think one other interesting thing that came up
was that both of these kinds ofstories have value, that there
is value to the stories thatgive you the answer and feel
satisfying in that way, andthere's also value to stories
that upend that expectation, andI think that's part of the
(48:25):
messiness of life that we'regetting at, that both of those
ideas have value and both shouldcoexist, and one doesn't cancel
out the other, which I think isinteresting.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Yeah, thank you for naming that, because in fact I
would argue that withoutEncyclopedia Brown there is no
Boy.
Detective Fails.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
Sure yeah.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
And without Boy Detective Fails, we have an
incomplete picture ofEncyclopedia Brown's inhabiting
or that trope's inhabiting ofthe real world.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, my favorite professor in college who I took
a creative writing class with,he talked about how the best
short stories they end byclosing, like they close inward,
and then the best novels end byopening outward.
And I'm thinking of one of thebest novels I've read in the
(49:15):
past few years was called theLamplighters by Emma Stonex, and
it's a little like the Giver inthat the end of the novel it's
really ambiguous, what the heckhappened.
So it's similar where it's justlike you don't have answers and
it kind of doesn't matterbecause that's not the point.
The point of the story was notto get answers, because it's
(49:35):
about these three lighthousekeepers who disappeared and
there's no way of knowing whatthe heck happened to them.
And that's okay because it'sabout the journey, the narrative
of what they left behind andall of these things.
That, I think, is also likeconsidering the fact that none
of these Encyclopedia Brownmysteries were a book long
mystery, like they were each atwo minute mystery, so they end.
(50:00):
David Lynn said they closed ininstead of opening out Well,
adam.
Speaker 2 (50:04):
how can listeners learn more about you and your
work?
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Oh gosh, I have a website, adamguancom, and also
I'm sort of most active onInstagram as far as social media
goes, and my handle onInstagram is guanster
G-W-O-N-S-T-E-R, so that'sprobably a good place to see
what I'm up to.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Cool, and we will link to those in our show notes.
And then next week Em right intime for 4th of July, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
I'm bringing my deep thoughts on Independence Day,
which you had not seen until,like last year, which still
blows my mind.
It's more than last year now,but it has been a while.
It's since covid.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
Ridiculous, ridiculous yeah, and as we'll
get into in our next episode, itwas kind of a um validation of
muppets from space for me,because there's a scene where
they parody independence day inmuppets from space that I didn't
know it was a parody until Isaw Independence Day.
I was like, oh, oh, muppetsfrom Space, yes, yes, I do have
(51:06):
a podcast about pop culturefriends.
Yes, I do.
All right, well, I look forwardto hearing your deep thoughts
about Independence Day next week.
We'll see you then.
Adam, thank you so much forjoining us.
It was great to see you again.
Speaker 1 (51:18):
Of course you as well .
Speaker 2 (51:22):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
(51:46):
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 3 (51:54):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
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