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Yes, I did go to my high school reunion. It was just as if everyone had swelled.
On this week's episode, Emily revisits the ultimate high school reunion film, Grosse Pointe Blank. Rewatching John Cusack's charming and hilarious performance of professional killer Martin Blank made it clear to her that this is one of the movies that you can either enjoy as a dark comedy with a second chance romance and a happy ending, or you can dig into the moral, ethical, and mental health implications of Martin's "moral flexibility," but it's a little difficult to do both. But even while questioning the cultural commentary (or lack thereof?) of a comedy film about a hardened killer, the Guy sisters find a lot to love in the movie's humor, banging soundtrack, examination of masculinity, and exploration of the importance of connecting with your past. Also, apparently even paid assassins want to unionize.
If you're ready to give this comedy a shot (but don't shoot anything!), put on your headphones and take a listen!
Tags: deep thoughts about stupid sh*t, comedy, movies, pop culture, comedy podcast, romance, cultural commentary, mental health, psychology, john cusack, film, movie reviews, classic movies, fiction, society, storytelling, women, feminism, soundtrack
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus content, live zooms with Tracie & Emily, discounts on merch, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:23):
And so he goes, just as Grocer's trying to kill her
father and rescues him, becausetheir father's out for a jog.
And so he grabs him, pulls himinto the car, and says, I was
supposed to kill you, but I'mnot.
And it's either because I'm inlove with your daughter or
because I have a newfoundrespect for life.
And meanwhile, Grocer is in avan behind him with a bunch of
(00:44):
his like union assassins going,like, that punk either is in
love with that guy's daughter.
He has a newfound respect forlife.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 comedy Gross PointBlank with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker.
And with you.
(01:32):
Let's dive in.
Tracy, I actually don't know ifyou've seen this film or not.
I have not.
Really?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Yeah.
Do you have anything in yourhead about it?
A little bit.
So, like, actually, a friend ofmine recently, like, I was
talking about the podcast, andhe was like, Oh, have you done
Gross Point Blank?
And I was like, I haven't seenthat one.
And I mentioned it to you, andyou were like, Oh, I love that
one.
So, what I know is that anassassin comes to his tenure
reunion and shenanigans and sue.
(02:01):
Mm-hmm.
That's what I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So aside from the fact that Ireminded you of it because of my
friend, why are we talking aboutit today?
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
So this film came out in April of 1997.
That was my prime watch everymovie that came out years.
Oh, I was in London.
That's why I didn't.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
And it actually watching itagain last night, I was really
interested to see the number ofparallels with the fact that I
(02:32):
know that I saw it with my highschool boyfriend and the
assassin who comes back for his10-year reunion.
He had abandoned the love of hislife, his high school
sweetheart, on their prom night.
He disappeared on their promnight and had not seen her for
10 years, but had been obsessedwith her.
(02:53):
Like he'd had he had recurringdreams about her for the entire
10 years that he'd been gone andlike really was had missed her
the entire time.
And so this was a seminalrelationship for both of them.
Like it really screwed them bothup that he had left her.
And so there is something inthat too, because this, like the
(03:18):
high school boyfriend that I sawit with, not that I knew it at
the time, was like an importantrelationship for me as well.
So and there's uh I saw it whenI was 18, and I didn't have the
(03:40):
perspective of an adult lookingat watching it as a high school
senior looking at people whowere 10 years older, and now as
someone who's much older thanthat, looking at, you know, not
quite 30-somethings going totheir high school reunion.
It's very, very interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
So those are all things that Ifound fascinating to watch
(04:03):
again.
And so that's all part of why Iwanted to talk about it.
And then I just loved this moviewhen I saw it.
I know I saw it more than once.
I saw it in the theater, and I'msure I saw it a couple more
times.
It has a phenomenal soundtrack.
It is so good.
And it's also just charming andvery funny and kind of darkly
(04:25):
funny, but also just plainfunny.
And I love that kind of likedark humor.
And John Cusack, who plays TheAssassin, is just delightful.
And then Joan Cusack plays hissecretary.
Interesting.
Slash personal assistant.
And she is she plays kind oflike Debbie from Adam's Family
(04:47):
Values, where she's so shsunshiny and dark at the same
time.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
And that their chemistry,because you know, obviously
they're siblings is just off thecharts, adorable.
So there's just so much there.
And then the romance betweenJohn Cusack and Minnie Driver,
(05:07):
who plays his lost love, thegirl he left behind, is also off
the charts amazing.
Like that there's it's there's alot to love in this movie.
So that's why I wanted torevisit it once you mentioned it
to me.
I was like, oh yeah, that moviewas great.
And this is one that uh, for themost part, I feel like I I'm I'm
(05:27):
glad to revisit.
So I do want to kind of talk alittle bit about, you know, some
postcards from the destination,want to talk about flexible
morality, want to talk aboutthere are some arguments that
John Cusack's Martin Blank ishis character's name, makes
about what he does for a living.
So I want to talk about that.
(05:48):
About does he have a point?
There's some really interestingstuff about toxic masculinity,
even though we didn't have wordsfor that in '97.
And so I want to talk aboutnostalgia and romantic love.
And I want to talk aboutforgiveness and what is
forgivable if a redemption arcis possible for someone like
Martin Blank.
(06:09):
I also want to talk aboutreunions.
Like, why do we do these things?
Yeah.
So since you haven't seen it,I'll kind of catch you up.
I'm gonna try not to.
There's a lot of shenanigansthat ensue, so I'm gonna try to
shenanigans ensue the uhsynopsis.
Okay.
So we meet Martin Blank.
He lives in Los Angeles now.
(06:29):
We meet him in the midst of ajob on the phone with his
personal assistant.
And so he is his sights on theperson that he has been hired to
take out.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Like he's on the phone while he's holding the
rifle and looking through thefreaky.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Okay.
And so his assistant Marcella issaying, I just got this in the
mail.
Your high school reunion'scoming up.
And she is so bubbly.
He takes out his mark, and justto show how nutso this is, the
person he took out was a cyclistwho had a gun who was there to
(07:14):
take out another person.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
So he assassinated an assassin?
He assassinated an assassin.
Or hit a hitman.
I actually don't know what thedifference is between an
assassin and a hitman.
I don't except maybe the likelevel, like the hierarchy of
their targets, the status oftheir targets.
Anyway, sorry, that's a tangent.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
He kills the sleep killer who was gonna kill
somebody else.
Okay.
And so the important person whohad bodyguards all around him
are like, you know, trying toclear the scene.
And while that happens, frombehind the important person had
been coming out of a hotel,someone dressed as a bellhop
comes from behind him and killsthe important person.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
Oh, so Martin had been protecting that man and he
dies anyway.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
Okay.
And the bellhop guy is played byDan Aykroyd, Mr.
Grocer, who is an acquaintanceof Martin's.
And they end up meeting and havethis very funny scene where
Martin is on the phone withMarcella and she's like,
client's very unhappy.
He's like, Well, I'm not happyabout it either.
I was hired to take out onetarget, not two.
(08:19):
And he's like, I know it wasGrocer.
Get Grocer on the line.
And they're on the phone, andGrocer's like, So where are you?
And Martin's like, I'm inBudapest.
And he's like, Oh, yes.
And then Grocer's car comes upand they're still claiming
they're in different cities.
And then they approach eachother like sideways because they
don't trust each other.
Long story short, Grocer invitesMartin to join his uh assassin's
(08:44):
union because these sorts ofthings happen all the time.
And if they were to join anassassin's union, they wouldn't
be in competition with eachother and they'd have more
communication.
It would be like a babysitter'sclub for assassins.
Got it.
And Martin says, no, I'm a lonewolf.
And Grosser basically threatenshim.
(09:07):
Martin goes to Miami for hisnext job, which goes badly.
He was supposed to make it looklike a heart attack in his
sleep.
The man moves while Martin istrying to administer a poison,
and so he ends up having toshoot him.
So it does not look like he diedin his sleep.
The client is very unhappy aboutthat.
And so they say, if you doanother one as a freebie, we'll
(09:30):
call it even.
And Marcella encourages him,says, Hey, this is fate because
the one they want you to do as afreebie is in Detroit.
And then you can go to yourreunion in Gross Point.
And he's like, I don't want togo to my reunion.
And she says, I went to my highschool reunion.
And this is this is one of thethings that has stuck with me
(09:51):
for what is it now, 28 years.
She's like, it was great.
It was as if everyone hadswelled.
So he takes the file for themark and he goes to Dr.
(10:11):
Oatman, his therapist, who'splayed by Alan Arkin.
Dr.
Oatman says, I'm not actuallyyour therapist.
Because as soon as he found outthat Martin was a professional
killer, he's like, I can't beyour therapist anymore.
He was coming for severalsessions and finally told him
what he did.
And he's like, I can't be yourtherapist.
You know, I can't conceal whatit is you do for a living.
(10:33):
I, you know, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
And Martin makes a joke.
He's like, Oh, no, no, it'sokay.
You know, like I trust you andblah, blah, blah.
And anyway, I know where youlive.
unknown (10:42):
And Dr.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Oatman's like, see, see, that's exactly what I'm
talking about.
And Martin's like, I'm justjoking.
So that's where we find out thathe is still thinking about
Debbie Newberry, the girl heleft behind at prom night.
And he asks him, like, pleasegive me advice.
Should I go to this high schoolreunion?
And Dr.
Oatman tells him, Yes, go spendthe weekend, get back in touch
(11:06):
with who you were 10 years ago.
Don't kill anybody for aweekend.
And Martin says, okay, I'll giveit a shot.
And Dr.
Oatman's like, no, no shooting.
No, do not give it a shot.
So we see him arrive in GrossPoints.
We see him kind of charmed beingback in his old hometown, which
clearly he has not been to sincehe was 18 years old.
(11:28):
We hear Debbie, she is now DJfor Radio Free Gross Point.
And she is the reason why thissoundtrack is so good.
She is playing an all 80s lineupfor the Points High School
reunion.
And so we see him drive by theradio station, which maybe in
small towns, smallish towns,they have this, but it has a
(11:49):
window where you can see herlike look out.
So, like K-Bear Chris in themorning.
Yeah.
That's exactly what I wasthinking of.
Yeah.
So Martin stops by the highschool and he runs into his old,
I think, English teacher, andthey have this adorable
interaction where you get asense of just how freakishly
intelligent he is and charming.
(12:13):
I mean, we've already seen howcharming he is, but just um
amazing.
She says, Oh, so where are youheading after this?
And he's also like kind ofcharmed to see the high school.
And he's like, Oh, I'm goinghome.
And she acts, she reacts alittle strangely.
He goes back to where his oldhouse was, and the house has
been torn down and it's now amini mart.
Oh.
(12:33):
And so he goes in and he likefreaks out at the guy behind the
counter.
He's like, How long have youbeen here?
And the guy's like, we're gonnadouble shift.
I don't wait.
It's very, very funny.
And so he gets on the phone toMarcella and he's find my
mother.
And so his mother's in a nursinghome.
(12:54):
She clearly has some kind ofdementia or something like that,
and clearly has not been wellfor a while.
And she said, I talked to yourfather.
He's like, Well, I think thatmust have been pretty difficult.
And he then goes to visits agravestone.
And his father passed away threeyears after he left.
He starts running into people heknows.
(13:14):
He runs into his old friendPaul, a childhood friend, who is
delighted to see him and who isnow in real estate and takes him
along on a house showing.
And it begins where he tells thetruth about what he's doing.
Paul's like, Oh, I'm in realestate now.
(13:35):
What are you doing?
He's like, professional killer.
And uh people were like, ah,wow, uh, does that let you
travel much?
Or, you know, like people justdon't believe him.
So it reminds me of in Luciferwhere Lucia will be like, Yeah,
I'm the devil.
And people are like, uh-huh.
So meanwhile, we see that Grocerwas the one who had originally
been contracted to take the markthat is now Martin's job.
(14:01):
The freebie that Martin's doing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
And Grosser is pissed off about it.
So he contacts, I think the CIA,but he contacts someone in
government.
He contacts some spooks.
Lardner and oh, I can't rememberthe other guy's name.
Anyway, they're played by HankAzaria and Todd Freeman.
Oh, and says to have them killMartin.
(14:28):
So they go to Gross Point, allthree of them, so that when the
government agents see Martintake out the mark, because the
mark is the hits on him becausehe is a whistleblower for
something.
So he's um under governmentprotection.
Yeah.
But it's not a big enough dealthat the government has him in
(14:51):
witness protection, but they dowant to take out the hitman.
So we see them following Martinaround.
Martin shows up at the radiostation, and Debbie is like
overwhelmed to see him.
At first, she's like, Uh, shakemy hand.
(15:11):
And then she's like, It's been10 years, where have you been?
And then they kiss, and likeit's really clear that they like
really loved each other.
And then like he freaks out andleaves, and then he turns around
and comes right back.
And so on the air, she likedresses him down and says, What
(15:35):
should I do, Gross Point?
How should I handle this personwho left me high and dry in a
$700 dress in 1986?
Which I meant to look up howmuch that is.
Actually, hold on a second.
I will do just that.
That is a$2074 dress in$2025.
(15:57):
That's a lot of money for a lotof money for a prom dress.
So left her high and dry on promnight with not a word,
disappeared, no one knew wherehe went, no word, nothing.
And now he just waltz back in.
So she's doing this all on theair.
She's doing this all on the air.
(16:17):
She's taking calls.
What should she do?
And so she's lived in GrossPoint her entire life.
People call in, and so oneperson says, okay, he should
grovel, you know, make him wearthe dress.
He doesn't sound remorseful atall.
And he keeps like trying tocover the microphone.
He's also very uncomfortablewith his back to the door and
(16:39):
like switches seats with her andstuff like that, and saying,
like, can we go someplaceprivate to talk?
And the government agents callin and start asking very pointed
questions, like, why is he here?
He still has not looked at thedossier.
He ends up leaving and she'svery off kilter.
(16:59):
He then clocks that there isanother assassin in town who
appears to be following him.
Besides Grocer?
Besides Grosser.
He calls Dev uh he calls, excuseme, Marcella and asks her, like,
can you tell me about all thesepeople?
Because he clocks the governmentagents, and then ends up meeting
with Grocer, like, at a diner tojust be like, okay, what's going
(17:21):
on?
Finds out from Grosser that theadditional hitman is a, I think
his name is Felix.
He was hired because a hit thatwent that it went fine, except
there was a dog that gotinvolved by accident that was
(17:43):
not Martin's fault.
There was something people wereplaying with dynamite, and the
dog was a retriever and itretrieved the dynamite.
And the dog belonged to amillionaire.
And so the dog died.
And the millionaire blamedMartin.
And so now Martin has a hit outon him because of the dog's
death.
Dog's death.
Yes.
And Martin at that point, he'slike, I would never hurt an
(18:05):
animal, which feels kind ofridiculous considering the
number of people he's killed.
Yeah.
Martin convinces Debbie to go toa bar with him and they actually
talk.
He says, Will you go to thereunion with me?
I'll pick you up at seven.
And she's like, that reallyseems like no.
(18:26):
Fool me wants to shame on you.
Yeah.
And she never gives him ananswer.
When he speaks to Marcellaagain, she's like, I'm worrying
about your safety.
You need to get out of townbecause of this other hitman.
And then the two spooks, they'rethere just until you've done the
job, which they just theyweren't fast enough to catch you
(18:47):
doing it, right?
You've already done it, right?
He's like, nope, I'll do ittomorrow.
And she's like, What are youdoing?
What are you doing?
Because he still hasn't lookedat the dossier.
So he goes over to Debbie'shouse, that her childhood house,
and like it's clearly an oldthing.
He knocks on the door in aparticular way, which clearly
(19:07):
was something from high school.
And so she lets him in, and theyhave this adorable interaction
that is again something frombefore.
And she says, Okay, you can pickme up at seven, and now you have
to leave.
So the next day he is late topick her up.
(19:27):
He is calling Dr.
Oatman because he's kind offreaking out.
And Dr.
Oatman is telling him, justbreathe, just remember who you
are, just breathe.
And he leaves his gun at thehotel.
He picks her up.
It's he said he was gonna bethere at seven, and he picks her
up at like 7:30, or maybe evenlater.
And he goes in to talk to herfather.
(19:50):
And her father is like kind of,you know, I'm glad you left my
daughter.
And she doesn't still live athome.
She says something about howthere was a fire at her
apartment, so it's temporary, soshe doesn't actually live there
usually.
I'm glad you left my daughter,this, that, and the other.
But then again, he's so quickwitted and so funny that like he
(20:11):
charms dad and they have alovely conversation.
Dad says, Why don't you sit downand have a drink with me?
And he says, No, we're alreadyrunning late for the reunion.
They go to the reunion, theydance, they meet with Ken.
Who gives Martin a pen and says,make sure you look at the cap.
And that becomes importantlater.
Martin meets with someone namedTracy, who he's very excited to
(20:34):
see, who has a baby, and he sitsand she gives him the baby, and
like he ends up like lookinginto the baby's eyes and like
being like overwhelmed, like, ohmy God, wow.
He and Debbie go up into thenurse's office and are kissing,
and she's like, something's notright, something's missing.
And he's like, Wait, well, whatis it?
And she slaps him.
She's like, ah, that's it.
(20:54):
Welcome home.
And so they, it's implied theyhave sex in the nurse's office.
Then as they're leaving, shesays, I'm gonna go say goodbye
to some people.
He's like, Okay, I'm gonna swingby my locker.
Then there's a guy who's beenreally aggressive towards him,
named Bob Desposito or somethinglike that, who comes and is very
drunk and wants to fight withMartin.
And Martin says, What is this?
(21:15):
Well, there is no we.
There's there, whateveraggression you think there is
between us, there is none.
So what is it you really want?
And Bob tries to read him apoem, and Martin de-escalates
it, and Debbie is charmed bythis.
Meanwhile, the other hitman hascome in, poses a as someone who
didn't show up at the reunion,and comes and attacks Martin at
(21:37):
his old locker.
Martin is able to get the dropon him, kicks away his gun, and
kills him with the pen that Kengave him.
It's an amazing scene.
Yeah, it's an amazing scene.
But Debbie comes as finds him asjust after that happens and sees
him covered in blood in front ofthat man, the dead man, and then
freaks out and runs away, whichis when Paul is like, Hey,
(22:00):
where's our boy?
And she's like sobbing andrunning away.
And Paul comes and is likeshocked, but ends up helping
Martin cover up the body andthen put throw it in the furnace
in the bottom of the.
So, whoa, friendship.
Debbie comes to his hotel roomand was like, okay, explain.
(22:22):
And he's like, No, I was seriouswhen I told you I'm a
professional killer.
He tells her a little bit moreabout it, about what it is he
does.
He's like, you know, governmentsdo it all the time, you know,
and rationalizes it.
And she's like, You don't get tobe with me.
Don't you understand this?
And so he's like, Okay, it'sdone.
So next morning he opens up thedossier finally and sees who the
(22:46):
target is, and it's her father.
And he's like, Oh my god, dumbfucking luck.
And he realizes that Grosser isgonna try to kill her father if
he doesn't.
And so he goes, just as Grocer'strying to kill her father and
rescues him, because theirfather's out for a jog.
And so he grabs him, pulls himinto the car, and says, I was
(23:08):
supposed to kill you, but I'mnot.
And it's either because I'm inlove with your daughter or
because I have a newfoundrespect for life.
And meanwhile, Grocer is in avan behind him with a bunch of
his like union assassins going,like, that punk either is in
love with that guy's daughter.
He has a newfound respect forlife.
So he brings him and Debbie intothe house, and he's like, Look,
(23:31):
on night of promo sitting inthat random tuxedo, and I knew
one thing for sure that I wantedto kill someone and I I loved
you, and I couldn't do both ofthose things.
And so I left and I joined thearmy.
And like I was tested, and I hadthis certain found I had a
certain moral flexibility.
And they recruited me into theCIA and I worked for the
government for a while, and thenI went solo.
(23:51):
So he has them like locked intothe bathroom.
He kills everyone except forGrocer.
He and Grocer are talking backand forth.
Grocer keeps saying, join myunion.
The two government agents comein, like guns blazing.
He and Grocer kill the twoagents.
And then he and Grocer are likeonly two left.
He manages to kill Grosser.
(24:12):
He comes back up to where thebathroom is and he's like, You
don't have to answer right now,but I love you and I want you to
marry me, but you don't have toanswer right now.
And the father goes, For whatit's worth, you have my
blessing.
And so the final scene is Debbieand Martin leaving in her
(24:32):
convertible, saying, and she hasleft a pre-recorded thing for on
the radio saying, sometimes youjust gotta get out of town.
And that's the end of the film.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
Huh.
It's a pretty high body count.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
It really is.
It really is.
It's a delightful movie.
It's tough.
It's a tough movie in some ways.
Yeah, where do you want tostart?
Let me start with flexiblemorality and toxic masculinity
because there's I feel likethey're connected.
(25:05):
Okay.
Because so Martin has thisflexible morality.
Like when Debbie confronts himat the hotel, he says to her,
like, if I show up at yourdoorstep and he says this more
than once, it's because you'vedone something awful.
I'm not killing nice people.
(25:25):
Except that her father, when webecause he says, like, you've
been a naughty boy or somethinglike that, you know, if I've
been sent to kill you.
And then her father says, it'sas they're coming in, he's like,
it's leaking sunroofs.
You know, that's all we getabout what it is that he's a
whistleblower about.
So Martin's flexible moralitystarted as, you know, he it was
(25:47):
seen as an asset by the Americangovernment.
And the thing is, his flexiblemorality, he did recognize, and
what makes it somewhatforgivable that at least that he
abandoned Debbie was that herecognized that he couldn't be
(26:08):
with her because of what it ishe knew he wanted to do.
And that, okay, I think that hisleave his abandoning her was
forgivable.
Okay, like, okay, I get it.
And the fact that he but what'sinteresting to me is that he
does not carry any kind of weirdtoxic masculinity because he has
(26:30):
this flexible morality.
I don't know.
So the scene with the BobDesposito, I'm getting his name
wrong, but it's something likethat.
So Bob is like that guy whopeaked in high school type guy.
He has a BMW dealership and he'sgot like the porn mustache, and
he's like the first time we seehim, he's really mean to Martin
(26:54):
for no particular reason and islike a little like overly not
flirty, but just like weird toDebbie.
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
So he's just a it's like who has the bigger dick
kind of a contest with this guy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yes, yes.
And then when he runs intoMartin, and Debbie isn't
Debbie's there, but in thebackground, like Bob can't see
her because he's very drunk.
And he's like, Oh, you want togo?
And he starts taking off hisjacket to like fight with
Martin.
And Martin disarms him so easilyand says, What do you think is
happening here?
There is no we, there's noaggression between us, and so
(27:29):
easily disarms him.
And he's like, What is it youreally want?
And Bob pulls out a poem, apoem, and it's terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
It's like, Oh, Bob has written this poem.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
That Bob has written.
This is like, when I feel sad,or like when I am sad, when I am
blue, and Martin is like, Thisis fantastic, this is really
outstanding.
He starts to keep going.
He's like, I wouldn't sell thedealership, but I think it's
great.
So why don't you skip to thelast line?
(28:01):
And Bob's like, oh, okay, for awhile.
That's the last line.
And so, like, it what it's soamazing to me because like
Martin doesn't have any issuewith I feel like going to a
therapist in the 90s was notsomething that manly men would
(28:23):
have felt comfortable doing.
He's uncomfortable with the factthat Debbie is talking about
their stuff on the radio, butnot because he doesn't want to
talk about his feelings, justbecause he doesn't want
everybody to know it.
And then he like disarms Bob soeasily.
(28:44):
But then there's that moralflexibility, and I'm like, is
that why he doesn't show thesetoxic masculine traits?
It's so weird.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
I don't even know.
I mean, I don't know.
I'm kind of not impressed.
Like, he doesn't have to proveit because he knows.
Like, Bob's like, I could killyou, but he's worried that he
can't, right?
He knows he could.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
So I killed the president of Paraguay with a
fork.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
He doesn't need to like get in the pissing contest.
Yeah.
Because he already knows how bighis piss is, or whatever.
That metaphor dissolved.
Um, but so to speak, it's justnot necessary.
You know, like when you'resecure in your masculinity,
(29:28):
there's no need for the toxicityof it, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I in some ways is directlyrelated to the flexible morality
because the violence is a partof the toxic masculinity or the
threat of violence.
So he doesn't need to threatenviolence because he's living it
all the time.
I have to say though, I'm notlike when you're talking about
what is forgivable, I haven'tseen this film, but I'm not
(29:52):
convinced that the abandonmentis forgivable.
He couldn't have said, like, I'mfreaking the fuck out.
I'm really sorry.
Like he just didn't show.
He just ghosted her.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
That's not understandable, evenwith the I know I couldn't be
with you and go to the fuckingprom and then leave the next
day.
Well, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
I'm not saying when she finds out why, after having
not known any reason why, Ithink that that is like because
it wasn't about her, it wasabout what he was going through
and then his with his mom.
Clearly, whatever is going onwith her like has been going on
(30:33):
for a long time.
Has been going on for a longtime.
Also, having just learned thathe's been killing people for 10
years, and then like, yeah, Irealized that's what I wanted to
do.
So I had to get the hell outright away.
That could be like, okay, yeah,yeah, you wanted me to not have
to deal with any of that.
unknown (30:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
I guess so.
I don't know if she doesn't justforgive it.
She then like that's where Ihave like, I don't know.
And even as an 18-year-old, Iwas like, I don't know if this
earns the happy ending it gets.
Yeah.
Because I think him leaving herat 18, because also remember,
you're an idiot at 18.
Yeah, totally.
(31:14):
Like him leaving her at 18, Ithink is forgivable.
Because your brain's not donecooking.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
He didn't have anyone to talk to about it.
He didn't have the perspective,he didn't have the
understanding.
Like, I think that isforgivable.
I don't think him spending 10years killing countless numbers
of people and with the evidencejust then that some of them
probably didn't deserve it, likeher father.
Yeah.
That I don't know.
(31:42):
But not to be fair, but one ofthe things, like, there are
several rationalizations thatMartin gives her.
He talks about what governmentsdo, what soldiers do, what riot
cops do, how if he didn't do it,someone else would.
How all of theserationalizations.
Now, none of those change thefact that he does it.
(32:03):
And that isn't okay.
Yeah.
But it does bring up some reallyinteresting questions like what
do like when is it okay?
Because he started off as asoldier and he was trained by
(32:23):
our government because theyrecognized in him a certain
flexible morality.
And we see a conversationbetween the government agents
because they get bored.
They're waiting around for himto kill Debbie's dad.
His name's Bart.
They're waiting around for himto kill Bart so they can kill
(32:44):
Martin.
Because they don't actually carewhether or not Bart lives.
And one of them says, I wish hewould just kill Bart so we could
kill him.
And he's like, Well, we can'twish that, because then we'd be
the bad guys.
And then he's like, Well, weshould just kill him.
It's like, well, no, then we'dbe the bad guys.
Okay, so we gotta wait for thebad guy to kill the good guy so
(33:04):
that we can be the good guys bykilling the bad guy.
So, like the movie acknowledgeshow fucked up all of this is.
Yeah.
Cause it is, it's allridiculous.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:16):
And the moment when Martin holds his classmate's
baby, and he says to her, like,because she he's like, How are
you?
What's going on?
She's like, Well, I'm marriednow.
And he's like, Yeah, and clearlyhave kids.
And she says, Yeah, the firstyear is mostly just trying to
keep him alive.
He's like, I guess they're notvery um, how does he put it?
(33:38):
They're vulnerable to theelements at this age, or
something like that.
And she's like, Oh, I'm gonnaget his bottle.
Here we hold him.
And he's like, No, no, no, Idon't know.
And she's just like, No, no, no.
And so you see him hold the babyand they get an utterably
adorable baby.
And babies are adorable, butthis baby is just gorgeous.
And they got a moment where thebaby's eyes like kind of light
(34:00):
up, and this baby has like longeyelashes, and they get the baby
like to smile.
And then John Cusack, who alsohas very long eyelashes and very
expressive eyes, like his eyeskind of light up, and you see
this like awe and wonder in hiseyes, and you see the moment
where he's like, Oh shit.
(34:20):
Oh shit, what have I been doing?
And so from that, like the bodycount from that moment on is
only people who are trying tokill him.
So I don't like it's really likeI don't know, I don't know if
(34:43):
his happy ending is earned.
SPEAKER_00 (34:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
I don't know how I feel about Debbie saying, let's
get out of town, we'll see whathappens.
SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
Because that's all that she gets.
That's all he gets is we'll goout of town, we'll see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
And Bart going, for what it's worth, yeah, my
blessing.
The history between them and thereal, like early connection that
you see, that's part of what wasuh not tough to watch, but it
was it brought some stuff up forme because I saw this with my
(35:16):
high school boyfriend, and wehad some of those same, like
when he knocks on the door andit's a special knock and clearly
something from their high schooldays.
Yeah.
And there were things like thatthat I had with my high school
boyfriend.
And there's uh she he says, Youhaven't given me an answer, and
she's like, I'll give you ananswer if you give me an
airplane.
And so what it is is where helies on the bed and and she like
he holds her up on his feet,puts her up on his feet, and so
(35:39):
like things like that that werejust like their intimacies is
like that history and continuityof intimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
But there wasn't continuity because there's 10
years of gap.
Yes.
Like, I want to push you to stayon this, but go into for the
postcards of the destination.
You talked about nostalgia andcan you go home again?
And like, why do we do reunions,which I think are related.
And like, I feel like thismovie, at least about this
romantic love, is saying you cango home again.
(36:08):
But what's Debbie been doing for10 years?
She hasn't dated in 10 years.
Like she actually was marriedand divorced.
unknown (36:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
But let's go there.
Cause like, you know, I smellbullshit, to be frank, in this,
like, these are things we usedto do 10 years ago when we were
kids, and let's do them again.
And oh, all the feelings arecoming back.
I smell bullshit.
So can we talk about that alittle bit about like nostalgia
and can you go home again?
Because it sounds like thismovie also sort of said like you
can't with the minimum where hishome used to be.
(36:37):
Can you unpack that a little bitfrom what's in this movie?
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
Yeah, I mean, like, you literally can't go home
again.
And he actually he calls Dr.
Oatman and he says that.
And he cannot talk to hismother.
At first, she recognizes him andthey have a conversation, but
then like later in theconversation, she's like, Oh my
goodness, you're a handsomedevil.
What's your name?
So there's that aspect of it.
(37:00):
And then the why do we doreunions?
I wanted to talk about that.
I have never been to a highschool reunion, and I never will
go to a high school reunion.
Now, part of it is becauseFacebook means I don't have to.
The people I want to stay intouch with, I'm in touch with.
I just don't have any interestin being in a room with the
(37:20):
people I don't want to stay intouch with.
In part because I really don'twant to see that particular
boyfriend again.
Honestly.
And I don't want to feel the waythat I felt in high school.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And I don't have nostalgia for most of my
experience.
Right.
The nostalgia I have is forthings like the culture and the
music and the movies.
The movies, yeah.
But there are things that Ithink you can reclaim like the
(37:55):
connections, like the realconnections that you had with
people.
So, for example, I was on a booktour in 2022, and I'm gonna tear
up for my book Stacked withJoseph Sehai, uh, who was on the
show a few episodes ago.
And I didn't realize how much itmeant to me in until we went on
tour.
(38:16):
Went to a few cities where someof my high school friends were
who showed up who I hadn't seensince basically graduation.
And that meant so much to methat someone who I haven't seen
in 25 or 30 years came to see mebecause of something, a career
(38:36):
milestone.
And that feels like a connectionI can go home to.
Like that someone who caredabout me when I was 17 cares
about me in my 40s.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
Yeah.
And that's beautiful, and that'swhat reunions are supposed to
give us.
Yes.
Coming back to this moviethough, the way that you have
traced it out for me, like I'mwondering if all of the angst
around like losing mom, she'sstill alive, but she's not mom,
(39:10):
and losing dad, and losingwhatever he was and had in Gross
Point has been wrapped up inDebbie.
Like the fact that that yourfriends showed up for you at
that moment is so beautiful andis making you tear up now.
You're not running off withthem.
unknown (39:26):
True.
SPEAKER_00 (39:26):
You know, you're not trying to build a life with
them.
You're just like, it's like amoment of, I don't think that is
a going home again.
It's sort of a like a reminderthat home still exists in a
different form.
And it doesn't, you're nottrying to be who you were then
with them.
And running off with them.
(39:49):
I just, it feelsdisproportionate.
And I think, and I have thebenefit of not being charmed by
QSAC's delivery, because itsounds like it is exceedingly
charming.
Oh, he is so charming.
And I'm sure when I watch it,I'll be like, oh yeah, I would
run off with him too.
But in just the narrative, likethinking about the psychology
(40:11):
and like what is happening andlike what sort of makes sense
kind of psychologically withoutthe like layer of the charm.
Like running off with Debbie.
Feels like a compensation for Iliterally can't go home again.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
And it's I was doing some reading, and the filmmakers
actually had multiple differentendings, multiple potential
endings, because they weren'tsure how to end it.
And they wanted there was amovie called Miami Blues that
had a similar feel to it, whereit was a similar kind of dark
(40:49):
comedy.
Start Alec Baldwin and JenniferJason Lee, where Alec Baldwin
was kind of like a narrativewealth, not killer exactly, but
he killed a lot of people and hedies at the end.
And they didn't want that.
They didn't want it to be likehe dies at the end.
But it was a similar kind ofdark comedy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:05):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
And so specifically because of Miami Blues, they
didn't want a John Cusack todie.
But it's also like you don't getto be with her.
unknown (41:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
That's why he left in the first place.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Yeah.
Because he's all the he's allthe more now.
Because well, before he just wasgonna go join the army.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
He does say he realized at some point he saw
something and he realized likethere's something more to this.
And you know, he's lost histaste for what he does, and
there's more to this, and hewants to explore the world more.
And like he is changing and hewants to change with her.
And it has never like when I saythat the continuity is for him,
(41:43):
like for him, it's never beenanyone but her.
She has moved on, even thoughshe's stayed in in place.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
All the more so, though, because like you and I
both know 10 years of piningabout someone, the person for
whom you're pining just has thesame face as the real human
being.
They're not the same person.
There's the Debbie of hisimagination who has either, you
know, stood stayed static orpotentially been embellished by
his imagination on a pedestal.
(42:13):
Yeah.
In ways that the actual fleshand blood Debbie did not.
Like that's I still callbullshit on continuity.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Yes.
Yeah.
You know, this is before uhbecause they were class of 86.
So this is before he could havekept an eye on her.
SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
Yeah.
All right.
Before we wrap up, but you hadmentioned that you wanted to
talk a little bit about likeworker solidarity in this.
So I wanted to ask you aboutthat.
Like, is this about the union?
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
Yes.
So when Grocer and Martin areshooting at each other, when the
government agents throw open thedoors and start shooting at
them.
And so Martin and Grocer for thefirst time are on the same page,
turn and are shooting at thegovernment agents.
And once they are both dead,Grocer says, Workers of the
(43:03):
world, unite.
And he's consistently using kindof like union language about
what it is they're doing.
And in fact, it's actually not abad idea considering what they
do and how many snafuos thereare.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
Do you think the movie makers meant to sort of
lampoon collective bargaining bydoing that?
By putting it in the mouth ofthis reprehensible assassin?
I honestly am not sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
Because, like, what happens consistently is unfair.
I don't know.
I really don't know how we'resupposed to feel about it.
Because on the now, the writerof this, so the screenplay was
written by an unknown and thenwas like script doctored by
(43:57):
several people, including StevePink, who I don't know, but he
ended up having a small part,and then and John Cusack and one
or two other people.
The unknown said it in GrossPoint.
He's from the Detroit area, buthe said it in Gross Point
instead of his own hometown,which is Blue Collar, because he
thought that it would be a likea better setting than his
(44:19):
blue-collar hometown.
And so I don't I honestly don'tknow.
The thing that I think is reallyinteresting is that I like I
feel like Grocer's idea makessense.
Like that the way that thingswent down in that first Budapest
(44:41):
is a mess.
Although someone's happy.
Like someone Yeah.
Contract killing, I don't know.
Okay.
So and then the considering thefact that the government agents
are also treated as not exactlyreprehensible, but they're kind
(45:03):
of ridiculous.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:04):
But it's that whole like we would be bad guys that
they don't, yeah, they don'ttheir morality is just as
flexible.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, they're basicallyformer colleagues of Martin's.
Right, right.
So it's a weird, it's a weirdthing.
And then the worker solidarity,so there is a point where the
the other hitman ends upconfronting Martin in the mini
(45:30):
mart.
Like he goes back there anothertime, confronts Martin in the
mini mart.
The guy who works behind thecounter is playing a video game
with headphones on, so he has noidea what's going on, even
though shooting behind him.
And the hitman sets a bomb.
And so Martin is running out andrealizes that the clerk has no
idea, and he runs back in andgets him and pulls him out.
(45:53):
And so that's a moment of likeworker solidarity as well.
So, like Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
I don't know.
We are out of time, so maybe wecan investigate this a little
bit more in the shit we forgotto say for our patrons.
But let me see if I can reflectback quickly to you some of the
top things that I heard.
I mean, we talked a lot aboutflexible morality, and actually
you tied that to sort of thelack of toxicity in Martin's
masculinity, which I think isright, because a lot of that
(46:22):
toxic masculinity is aboutviolence and threats of violence
and who who would win inviolence.
And since Martin knows he wouldwin, he doesn't need to lean on
sort of toxic masculinity, whichstill doesn't paint a good
picture of masculinity.
Let's be clear.
We also talked about sort ofnostalgia and like whether or
(46:43):
not you can go home again.
And there's this movie sort ofsays you literally can't, but
then also kind of pulls itspunches by suggesting that this
romantic relationship could justpick right up where it left off,
even though there's 10 yearsintervening, which you said
there was continuity becausehe's been pining for her all
(47:03):
this time.
I smell bullshit.
It doesn't sound I don't buy it.
I don't buy it.
He's been pining for a woman wholooks a lot like her, who is
completely imaginary.
We also talked a bit about whatis forgivable.
And I think part of where weimplied, I'm not sure we
actually said this outright, waslike part of the reason the
abandonment becomes forgivableis because it wasn't actually
(47:25):
about her.
It wasn't about rejecting her.
It was about him like having abunch of shit going on and being
an unformed 18-year-old versusbeing a contract killer, which
somehow does become forgivable.
I don't know.
I'm very confused by that pieceof this storyline.
We also talked about why we doreunions, and I think, and you
(47:46):
told a story that made you tearup, which is why we do reunions,
because there were we had realconnections and life has taken
us apart.
Sometimes we can be reminded ofthose connections, and that
feels really real.
At the same time, social mediabeing what it is today, there's
less of a need because we seevirtual versions of the high
(48:07):
school folks we want to see allthe time.
Many of us do.
Lastly, we talked a bit aboutsolidarity.
We have Dan Aykroyd Grocer sortof talking about unions all the
time and workers of the worldunite, which is I asked the
question like, it are the moviemakers sort of lampooning the
idea of collective bargainingand worker solidarity by putting
(48:28):
it in the mouth of this contractkiller.
We don't know.
We don't know.
Like there, it feels like apush-me-pull-me a little bit,
you know, with the saving of theclerk, but also, you know,
there's backstabbing andbetrayal across colleagues.
We are out of time, and I haveno idea what I'm doing next
time.
Do you remember?
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
Don't.
SPEAKER_00 (48:51):
I'm gonna bring deep thoughts about something next
time, friends.
Stay tuned for more.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
(49:13):
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(49:38):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
And so he goes, just as Grocer's trying to kill her
father and rescues him, becausetheir father's out for a jog.
And so he grabs him, pulls himinto the car, and says, I was
supposed to kill you, but I'mnot.
And it's either because I'm inlove with your daughter or
because I have a newfoundrespect for life.
And meanwhile, Grocer is in avan behind him with a bunch of
(00:44):
his like union assassins going,like, that punk either is in
love with that guy's daughter.
He has a newfound respect forlife.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:12):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 comedy Gross PointBlank with my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker.
And with you.
(01:32):
Let's dive in.
Tracy, I actually don't know ifyou've seen this film or not.
I have not.
Really?
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (01:39):
Yeah.
Do you have anything in yourhead about it?
A little bit.
So, like, actually, a friend ofmine recently, like, I was
talking about the podcast, andhe was like, Oh, have you done
Gross Point Blank?
And I was like, I haven't seenthat one.
And I mentioned it to you, andyou were like, Oh, I love that
one.
So, what I know is that anassassin comes to his tenure
reunion and shenanigans and sue.
(02:01):
Mm-hmm.
That's what I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So aside from the fact that Ireminded you of it because of my
friend, why are we talking aboutit today?
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
So this film came out in April of 1997.
That was my prime watch everymovie that came out years.
Oh, I was in London.
That's why I didn't.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
And it actually watching itagain last night, I was really
interested to see the number ofparallels with the fact that I
(02:32):
know that I saw it with my highschool boyfriend and the
assassin who comes back for his10-year reunion.
He had abandoned the love of hislife, his high school
sweetheart, on their prom night.
He disappeared on their promnight and had not seen her for
10 years, but had been obsessedwith her.
(02:53):
Like he'd had he had recurringdreams about her for the entire
10 years that he'd been gone andlike really was had missed her
the entire time.
And so this was a seminalrelationship for both of them.
Like it really screwed them bothup that he had left her.
And so there is something inthat too, because this, like the
(03:18):
high school boyfriend that I sawit with, not that I knew it at
the time, was like an importantrelationship for me as well.
So and there's uh I saw it whenI was 18, and I didn't have the
(03:40):
perspective of an adult lookingat watching it as a high school
senior looking at people whowere 10 years older, and now as
someone who's much older thanthat, looking at, you know, not
quite 30-somethings going totheir high school reunion.
It's very, very interesting.
Yeah, yeah.
So those are all things that Ifound fascinating to watch
(04:03):
again.
And so that's all part of why Iwanted to talk about it.
And then I just loved this moviewhen I saw it.
I know I saw it more than once.
I saw it in the theater, and I'msure I saw it a couple more
times.
It has a phenomenal soundtrack.
It is so good.
And it's also just charming andvery funny and kind of darkly
(04:25):
funny, but also just plainfunny.
And I love that kind of likedark humor.
And John Cusack, who plays TheAssassin, is just delightful.
And then Joan Cusack plays hissecretary.
Interesting.
Slash personal assistant.
And she is she plays kind oflike Debbie from Adam's Family
(04:47):
Values, where she's so shsunshiny and dark at the same
time.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
And that their chemistry,because you know, obviously
they're siblings is just off thecharts, adorable.
So there's just so much there.
And then the romance betweenJohn Cusack and Minnie Driver,
(05:07):
who plays his lost love, thegirl he left behind, is also off
the charts amazing.
Like that there's it's there's alot to love in this movie.
So that's why I wanted torevisit it once you mentioned it
to me.
I was like, oh yeah, that moviewas great.
And this is one that uh, for themost part, I feel like I I'm I'm
(05:27):
glad to revisit.
So I do want to kind of talk alittle bit about, you know, some
postcards from the destination,want to talk about flexible
morality, want to talk aboutthere are some arguments that
John Cusack's Martin Blank ishis character's name, makes
about what he does for a living.
So I want to talk about that.
(05:48):
About does he have a point?
There's some really interestingstuff about toxic masculinity,
even though we didn't have wordsfor that in '97.
And so I want to talk aboutnostalgia and romantic love.
And I want to talk aboutforgiveness and what is
forgivable if a redemption arcis possible for someone like
Martin Blank.
(06:09):
I also want to talk aboutreunions.
Like, why do we do these things?
Yeah.
So since you haven't seen it,I'll kind of catch you up.
I'm gonna try not to.
There's a lot of shenanigansthat ensue, so I'm gonna try to
shenanigans ensue the uhsynopsis.
Okay.
So we meet Martin Blank.
He lives in Los Angeles now.
(06:29):
We meet him in the midst of ajob on the phone with his
personal assistant.
And so he is his sights on theperson that he has been hired to
take out.
SPEAKER_00 (06:44):
Like he's on the phone while he's holding the
rifle and looking through thefreaky.
SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Okay.
And so his assistant Marcella issaying, I just got this in the
mail.
Your high school reunion'scoming up.
And she is so bubbly.
He takes out his mark, and justto show how nutso this is, the
person he took out was a cyclistwho had a gun who was there to
(07:14):
take out another person.
SPEAKER_00 (07:17):
So he assassinated an assassin?
He assassinated an assassin.
Or hit a hitman.
I actually don't know what thedifference is between an
assassin and a hitman.
I don't except maybe the likelevel, like the hierarchy of
their targets, the status oftheir targets.
Anyway, sorry, that's a tangent.
SPEAKER_01 (07:32):
He kills the sleep killer who was gonna kill
somebody else.
Okay.
And so the important person whohad bodyguards all around him
are like, you know, trying toclear the scene.
And while that happens, frombehind the important person had
been coming out of a hotel,someone dressed as a bellhop
comes from behind him and killsthe important person.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
Oh, so Martin had been protecting that man and he
dies anyway.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (07:57):
Okay.
And the bellhop guy is played byDan Aykroyd, Mr.
Grocer, who is an acquaintanceof Martin's.
And they end up meeting and havethis very funny scene where
Martin is on the phone withMarcella and she's like,
client's very unhappy.
He's like, Well, I'm not happyabout it either.
I was hired to take out onetarget, not two.
(08:19):
And he's like, I know it wasGrocer.
Get Grocer on the line.
And they're on the phone, andGrocer's like, So where are you?
And Martin's like, I'm inBudapest.
And he's like, Oh, yes.
And then Grocer's car comes upand they're still claiming
they're in different cities.
And then they approach eachother like sideways because they
don't trust each other.
Long story short, Grocer invitesMartin to join his uh assassin's
(08:44):
union because these sorts ofthings happen all the time.
And if they were to join anassassin's union, they wouldn't
be in competition with eachother and they'd have more
communication.
It would be like a babysitter'sclub for assassins.
Got it.
And Martin says, no, I'm a lonewolf.
And Grosser basically threatenshim.
(09:07):
Martin goes to Miami for hisnext job, which goes badly.
He was supposed to make it looklike a heart attack in his
sleep.
The man moves while Martin istrying to administer a poison,
and so he ends up having toshoot him.
So it does not look like he diedin his sleep.
The client is very unhappy aboutthat.
And so they say, if you doanother one as a freebie, we'll
(09:30):
call it even.
And Marcella encourages him,says, Hey, this is fate because
the one they want you to do as afreebie is in Detroit.
And then you can go to yourreunion in Gross Point.
And he's like, I don't want togo to my reunion.
And she says, I went to my highschool reunion.
And this is this is one of thethings that has stuck with me
(09:51):
for what is it now, 28 years.
She's like, it was great.
It was as if everyone hadswelled.
So he takes the file for themark and he goes to Dr.
(10:11):
Oatman, his therapist, who'splayed by Alan Arkin.
Dr.
Oatman says, I'm not actuallyyour therapist.
Because as soon as he found outthat Martin was a professional
killer, he's like, I can't beyour therapist anymore.
He was coming for severalsessions and finally told him
what he did.
And he's like, I can't be yourtherapist.
You know, I can't conceal whatit is you do for a living.
(10:33):
I, you know, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah.
And Martin makes a joke.
He's like, Oh, no, no, it'sokay.
You know, like I trust you andblah, blah, blah.
And anyway, I know where youlive.
unknown (10:42):
And Dr.
SPEAKER_01 (10:43):
Oatman's like, see, see, that's exactly what I'm
talking about.
And Martin's like, I'm justjoking.
So that's where we find out thathe is still thinking about
Debbie Newberry, the girl heleft behind at prom night.
And he asks him, like, pleasegive me advice.
Should I go to this high schoolreunion?
And Dr.
Oatman tells him, Yes, go spendthe weekend, get back in touch
(11:06):
with who you were 10 years ago.
Don't kill anybody for aweekend.
And Martin says, okay, I'll giveit a shot.
And Dr.
Oatman's like, no, no shooting.
No, do not give it a shot.
So we see him arrive in GrossPoints.
We see him kind of charmed beingback in his old hometown, which
clearly he has not been to sincehe was 18 years old.
(11:28):
We hear Debbie, she is now DJfor Radio Free Gross Point.
And she is the reason why thissoundtrack is so good.
She is playing an all 80s lineupfor the Points High School
reunion.
And so we see him drive by theradio station, which maybe in
small towns, smallish towns,they have this, but it has a
(11:49):
window where you can see herlike look out.
So, like K-Bear Chris in themorning.
Yeah.
That's exactly what I wasthinking of.
Yeah.
So Martin stops by the highschool and he runs into his old,
I think, English teacher, andthey have this adorable
interaction where you get asense of just how freakishly
intelligent he is and charming.
(12:13):
I mean, we've already seen howcharming he is, but just um
amazing.
She says, Oh, so where are youheading after this?
And he's also like kind ofcharmed to see the high school.
And he's like, Oh, I'm goinghome.
And she acts, she reacts alittle strangely.
He goes back to where his oldhouse was, and the house has
been torn down and it's now amini mart.
Oh.
(12:33):
And so he goes in and he likefreaks out at the guy behind the
counter.
He's like, How long have youbeen here?
And the guy's like, we're gonnadouble shift.
I don't wait.
It's very, very funny.
And so he gets on the phone toMarcella and he's find my
mother.
And so his mother's in a nursinghome.
(12:54):
She clearly has some kind ofdementia or something like that,
and clearly has not been wellfor a while.
And she said, I talked to yourfather.
He's like, Well, I think thatmust have been pretty difficult.
And he then goes to visits agravestone.
And his father passed away threeyears after he left.
He starts running into people heknows.
(13:14):
He runs into his old friendPaul, a childhood friend, who is
delighted to see him and who isnow in real estate and takes him
along on a house showing.
And it begins where he tells thetruth about what he's doing.
Paul's like, Oh, I'm in realestate now.
(13:35):
What are you doing?
He's like, professional killer.
And uh people were like, ah,wow, uh, does that let you
travel much?
Or, you know, like people justdon't believe him.
So it reminds me of in Luciferwhere Lucia will be like, Yeah,
I'm the devil.
And people are like, uh-huh.
So meanwhile, we see that Grocerwas the one who had originally
been contracted to take the markthat is now Martin's job.
(14:01):
The freebie that Martin's doing.
SPEAKER_00 (14:03):
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (14:03):
And Grosser is pissed off about it.
So he contacts, I think the CIA,but he contacts someone in
government.
He contacts some spooks.
Lardner and oh, I can't rememberthe other guy's name.
Anyway, they're played by HankAzaria and Todd Freeman.
Oh, and says to have them killMartin.
(14:28):
So they go to Gross Point, allthree of them, so that when the
government agents see Martintake out the mark, because the
mark is the hits on him becausehe is a whistleblower for
something.
So he's um under governmentprotection.
Yeah.
But it's not a big enough dealthat the government has him in
(14:51):
witness protection, but they dowant to take out the hitman.
So we see them following Martinaround.
Martin shows up at the radiostation, and Debbie is like
overwhelmed to see him.
At first, she's like, Uh, shakemy hand.
(15:11):
And then she's like, It's been10 years, where have you been?
And then they kiss, and likeit's really clear that they like
really loved each other.
And then like he freaks out andleaves, and then he turns around
and comes right back.
And so on the air, she likedresses him down and says, What
(15:35):
should I do, Gross Point?
How should I handle this personwho left me high and dry in a
$700 dress in 1986?
Which I meant to look up howmuch that is.
Actually, hold on a second.
I will do just that.
That is a$2074 dress in$2025.
(15:57):
That's a lot of money for a lotof money for a prom dress.
So left her high and dry on promnight with not a word,
disappeared, no one knew wherehe went, no word, nothing.
And now he just waltz back in.
So she's doing this all on theair.
She's doing this all on the air.
(16:17):
She's taking calls.
What should she do?
And so she's lived in GrossPoint her entire life.
People call in, and so oneperson says, okay, he should
grovel, you know, make him wearthe dress.
He doesn't sound remorseful atall.
And he keeps like trying tocover the microphone.
He's also very uncomfortablewith his back to the door and
(16:39):
like switches seats with her andstuff like that, and saying,
like, can we go someplaceprivate to talk?
And the government agents callin and start asking very pointed
questions, like, why is he here?
He still has not looked at thedossier.
He ends up leaving and she'svery off kilter.
(16:59):
He then clocks that there isanother assassin in town who
appears to be following him.
Besides Grocer?
Besides Grosser.
He calls Dev uh he calls, excuseme, Marcella and asks her, like,
can you tell me about all thesepeople?
Because he clocks the governmentagents, and then ends up meeting
with Grocer, like, at a diner tojust be like, okay, what's going
(17:21):
on?
Finds out from Grosser that theadditional hitman is a, I think
his name is Felix.
He was hired because a hit thatwent that it went fine, except
there was a dog that gotinvolved by accident that was
(17:43):
not Martin's fault.
There was something people wereplaying with dynamite, and the
dog was a retriever and itretrieved the dynamite.
And the dog belonged to amillionaire.
And so the dog died.
And the millionaire blamedMartin.
And so now Martin has a hit outon him because of the dog's
death.
Dog's death.
Yes.
And Martin at that point, he'slike, I would never hurt an
(18:05):
animal, which feels kind ofridiculous considering the
number of people he's killed.
Yeah.
Martin convinces Debbie to go toa bar with him and they actually
talk.
He says, Will you go to thereunion with me?
I'll pick you up at seven.
And she's like, that reallyseems like no.
(18:26):
Fool me wants to shame on you.
Yeah.
And she never gives him ananswer.
When he speaks to Marcellaagain, she's like, I'm worrying
about your safety.
You need to get out of townbecause of this other hitman.
And then the two spooks, they'rethere just until you've done the
job, which they just theyweren't fast enough to catch you
(18:47):
doing it, right?
You've already done it, right?
He's like, nope, I'll do ittomorrow.
And she's like, What are youdoing?
What are you doing?
Because he still hasn't lookedat the dossier.
So he goes over to Debbie'shouse, that her childhood house,
and like it's clearly an oldthing.
He knocks on the door in aparticular way, which clearly
(19:07):
was something from high school.
And so she lets him in, and theyhave this adorable interaction
that is again something frombefore.
And she says, Okay, you can pickme up at seven, and now you have
to leave.
So the next day he is late topick her up.
(19:27):
He is calling Dr.
Oatman because he's kind offreaking out.
And Dr.
Oatman is telling him, justbreathe, just remember who you
are, just breathe.
And he leaves his gun at thehotel.
He picks her up.
It's he said he was gonna bethere at seven, and he picks her
up at like 7:30, or maybe evenlater.
And he goes in to talk to herfather.
(19:50):
And her father is like kind of,you know, I'm glad you left my
daughter.
And she doesn't still live athome.
She says something about howthere was a fire at her
apartment, so it's temporary, soshe doesn't actually live there
usually.
I'm glad you left my daughter,this, that, and the other.
But then again, he's so quickwitted and so funny that like he
(20:11):
charms dad and they have alovely conversation.
Dad says, Why don't you sit downand have a drink with me?
And he says, No, we're alreadyrunning late for the reunion.
They go to the reunion, theydance, they meet with Ken.
Who gives Martin a pen and says,make sure you look at the cap.
And that becomes importantlater.
Martin meets with someone namedTracy, who he's very excited to
(20:34):
see, who has a baby, and he sitsand she gives him the baby, and
like he ends up like lookinginto the baby's eyes and like
being like overwhelmed, like, ohmy God, wow.
He and Debbie go up into thenurse's office and are kissing,
and she's like, something's notright, something's missing.
And he's like, Wait, well, whatis it?
And she slaps him.
She's like, ah, that's it.
(20:54):
Welcome home.
And so they, it's implied theyhave sex in the nurse's office.
Then as they're leaving, shesays, I'm gonna go say goodbye
to some people.
He's like, Okay, I'm gonna swingby my locker.
Then there's a guy who's beenreally aggressive towards him,
named Bob Desposito or somethinglike that, who comes and is very
drunk and wants to fight withMartin.
And Martin says, What is this?
(21:15):
Well, there is no we.
There's there, whateveraggression you think there is
between us, there is none.
So what is it you really want?
And Bob tries to read him apoem, and Martin de-escalates
it, and Debbie is charmed bythis.
Meanwhile, the other hitman hascome in, poses a as someone who
didn't show up at the reunion,and comes and attacks Martin at
(21:37):
his old locker.
Martin is able to get the dropon him, kicks away his gun, and
kills him with the pen that Kengave him.
It's an amazing scene.
Yeah, it's an amazing scene.
But Debbie comes as finds him asjust after that happens and sees
him covered in blood in front ofthat man, the dead man, and then
freaks out and runs away, whichis when Paul is like, Hey,
(22:00):
where's our boy?
And she's like sobbing andrunning away.
And Paul comes and is likeshocked, but ends up helping
Martin cover up the body andthen put throw it in the furnace
in the bottom of the.
So, whoa, friendship.
Debbie comes to his hotel roomand was like, okay, explain.
(22:22):
And he's like, No, I was seriouswhen I told you I'm a
professional killer.
He tells her a little bit moreabout it, about what it is he
does.
He's like, you know, governmentsdo it all the time, you know,
and rationalizes it.
And she's like, You don't get tobe with me.
Don't you understand this?
And so he's like, Okay, it'sdone.
So next morning he opens up thedossier finally and sees who the
(22:46):
target is, and it's her father.
And he's like, Oh my god, dumbfucking luck.
And he realizes that Grosser isgonna try to kill her father if
he doesn't.
And so he goes, just as Grocer'strying to kill her father and
rescues him, because theirfather's out for a jog.
And so he grabs him, pulls himinto the car, and says, I was
(23:08):
supposed to kill you, but I'mnot.
And it's either because I'm inlove with your daughter or
because I have a newfoundrespect for life.
And meanwhile, Grocer is in avan behind him with a bunch of
his like union assassins going,like, that punk either is in
love with that guy's daughter.
He has a newfound respect forlife.
So he brings him and Debbie intothe house, and he's like, Look,
(23:31):
on night of promo sitting inthat random tuxedo, and I knew
one thing for sure that I wantedto kill someone and I I loved
you, and I couldn't do both ofthose things.
And so I left and I joined thearmy.
And like I was tested, and I hadthis certain found I had a
certain moral flexibility.
And they recruited me into theCIA and I worked for the
government for a while, and thenI went solo.
(23:51):
So he has them like locked intothe bathroom.
He kills everyone except forGrocer.
He and Grocer are talking backand forth.
Grocer keeps saying, join myunion.
The two government agents comein, like guns blazing.
He and Grocer kill the twoagents.
And then he and Grocer are likeonly two left.
He manages to kill Grosser.
(24:12):
He comes back up to where thebathroom is and he's like, You
don't have to answer right now,but I love you and I want you to
marry me, but you don't have toanswer right now.
And the father goes, For whatit's worth, you have my
blessing.
And so the final scene is Debbieand Martin leaving in her
(24:32):
convertible, saying, and she hasleft a pre-recorded thing for on
the radio saying, sometimes youjust gotta get out of town.
And that's the end of the film.
SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
Huh.
It's a pretty high body count.
SPEAKER_01 (24:45):
It really is.
It really is.
It's a delightful movie.
It's tough.
It's a tough movie in some ways.
Yeah, where do you want tostart?
Let me start with flexiblemorality and toxic masculinity
because there's I feel likethey're connected.
(25:05):
Okay.
Because so Martin has thisflexible morality.
Like when Debbie confronts himat the hotel, he says to her,
like, if I show up at yourdoorstep and he says this more
than once, it's because you'vedone something awful.
I'm not killing nice people.
(25:25):
Except that her father, when webecause he says, like, you've
been a naughty boy or somethinglike that, you know, if I've
been sent to kill you.
And then her father says, it'sas they're coming in, he's like,
it's leaking sunroofs.
You know, that's all we getabout what it is that he's a
whistleblower about.
So Martin's flexible moralitystarted as, you know, he it was
(25:47):
seen as an asset by the Americangovernment.
And the thing is, his flexiblemorality, he did recognize, and
what makes it somewhatforgivable that at least that he
abandoned Debbie was that herecognized that he couldn't be
(26:08):
with her because of what it ishe knew he wanted to do.
And that, okay, I think that hisleave his abandoning her was
forgivable.
Okay, like, okay, I get it.
And the fact that he but what'sinteresting to me is that he
does not carry any kind of weirdtoxic masculinity because he has
(26:30):
this flexible morality.
I don't know.
So the scene with the BobDesposito, I'm getting his name
wrong, but it's something likethat.
So Bob is like that guy whopeaked in high school type guy.
He has a BMW dealership and he'sgot like the porn mustache, and
he's like the first time we seehim, he's really mean to Martin
(26:54):
for no particular reason and islike a little like overly not
flirty, but just like weird toDebbie.
SPEAKER_00 (27:02):
So he's just a it's like who has the bigger dick
kind of a contest with this guy.
SPEAKER_01 (27:06):
Yes, yes.
And then when he runs intoMartin, and Debbie isn't
Debbie's there, but in thebackground, like Bob can't see
her because he's very drunk.
And he's like, Oh, you want togo?
And he starts taking off hisjacket to like fight with
Martin.
And Martin disarms him so easilyand says, What do you think is
happening here?
There is no we, there's noaggression between us, and so
(27:29):
easily disarms him.
And he's like, What is it youreally want?
And Bob pulls out a poem, apoem, and it's terrible.
SPEAKER_00 (27:38):
It's like, Oh, Bob has written this poem.
SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
That Bob has written.
This is like, when I feel sad,or like when I am sad, when I am
blue, and Martin is like, Thisis fantastic, this is really
outstanding.
He starts to keep going.
He's like, I wouldn't sell thedealership, but I think it's
great.
So why don't you skip to thelast line?
(28:01):
And Bob's like, oh, okay, for awhile.
That's the last line.
And so, like, it what it's soamazing to me because like
Martin doesn't have any issuewith I feel like going to a
therapist in the 90s was notsomething that manly men would
(28:23):
have felt comfortable doing.
He's uncomfortable with the factthat Debbie is talking about
their stuff on the radio, butnot because he doesn't want to
talk about his feelings, justbecause he doesn't want
everybody to know it.
And then he like disarms Bob soeasily.
(28:44):
But then there's that moralflexibility, and I'm like, is
that why he doesn't show thesetoxic masculine traits?
It's so weird.
SPEAKER_00 (28:53):
I don't even know.
I mean, I don't know.
I'm kind of not impressed.
Like, he doesn't have to proveit because he knows.
Like, Bob's like, I could killyou, but he's worried that he
can't, right?
He knows he could.
SPEAKER_01 (29:04):
So I killed the president of Paraguay with a
fork.
SPEAKER_00 (29:07):
He doesn't need to like get in the pissing contest.
Yeah.
Because he already knows how bighis piss is, or whatever.
That metaphor dissolved.
Um, but so to speak, it's justnot necessary.
You know, like when you'resecure in your masculinity,
(29:28):
there's no need for the toxicityof it, I guess.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which I in some ways is directlyrelated to the flexible morality
because the violence is a partof the toxic masculinity or the
threat of violence.
So he doesn't need to threatenviolence because he's living it
all the time.
I have to say though, I'm notlike when you're talking about
what is forgivable, I haven'tseen this film, but I'm not
(29:52):
convinced that the abandonmentis forgivable.
He couldn't have said, like, I'mfreaking the fuck out.
I'm really sorry.
Like he just didn't show.
He just ghosted her.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
That's not understandable, evenwith the I know I couldn't be
with you and go to the fuckingprom and then leave the next
day.
Well, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
I'm not saying when she finds out why, after having
not known any reason why, Ithink that that is like because
it wasn't about her, it wasabout what he was going through
and then his with his mom.
Clearly, whatever is going onwith her like has been going on
(30:33):
for a long time.
Has been going on for a longtime.
Also, having just learned thathe's been killing people for 10
years, and then like, yeah, Irealized that's what I wanted to
do.
So I had to get the hell outright away.
That could be like, okay, yeah,yeah, you wanted me to not have
to deal with any of that.
unknown (30:53):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (30:54):
I guess so.
I don't know if she doesn't justforgive it.
She then like that's where Ihave like, I don't know.
And even as an 18-year-old, Iwas like, I don't know if this
earns the happy ending it gets.
Yeah.
Because I think him leaving herat 18, because also remember,
you're an idiot at 18.
Yeah, totally.
(31:14):
Like him leaving her at 18, Ithink is forgivable.
Because your brain's not donecooking.
SPEAKER_00 (31:20):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (31:21):
He didn't have anyone to talk to about it.
He didn't have the perspective,he didn't have the
understanding.
Like, I think that isforgivable.
I don't think him spending 10years killing countless numbers
of people and with the evidencejust then that some of them
probably didn't deserve it, likeher father.
Yeah.
That I don't know.
(31:42):
But not to be fair, but one ofthe things, like, there are
several rationalizations thatMartin gives her.
He talks about what governmentsdo, what soldiers do, what riot
cops do, how if he didn't do it,someone else would.
How all of theserationalizations.
Now, none of those change thefact that he does it.
(32:03):
And that isn't okay.
Yeah.
But it does bring up some reallyinteresting questions like what
do like when is it okay?
Because he started off as asoldier and he was trained by
(32:23):
our government because theyrecognized in him a certain
flexible morality.
And we see a conversationbetween the government agents
because they get bored.
They're waiting around for himto kill Debbie's dad.
His name's Bart.
They're waiting around for himto kill Bart so they can kill
(32:44):
Martin.
Because they don't actually carewhether or not Bart lives.
And one of them says, I wish hewould just kill Bart so we could
kill him.
And he's like, Well, we can'twish that, because then we'd be
the bad guys.
And then he's like, Well, weshould just kill him.
It's like, well, no, then we'dbe the bad guys.
Okay, so we gotta wait for thebad guy to kill the good guy so
(33:04):
that we can be the good guys bykilling the bad guy.
So, like the movie acknowledgeshow fucked up all of this is.
Yeah.
Cause it is, it's allridiculous.
SPEAKER_00 (33:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (33:16):
And the moment when Martin holds his classmate's
baby, and he says to her, like,because she he's like, How are
you?
What's going on?
She's like, Well, I'm marriednow.
And he's like, Yeah, and clearlyhave kids.
And she says, Yeah, the firstyear is mostly just trying to
keep him alive.
He's like, I guess they're notvery um, how does he put it?
(33:38):
They're vulnerable to theelements at this age, or
something like that.
And she's like, Oh, I'm gonnaget his bottle.
Here we hold him.
And he's like, No, no, no, Idon't know.
And she's just like, No, no, no.
And so you see him hold the babyand they get an utterably
adorable baby.
And babies are adorable, butthis baby is just gorgeous.
And they got a moment where thebaby's eyes like kind of light
(34:00):
up, and this baby has like longeyelashes, and they get the baby
like to smile.
And then John Cusack, who alsohas very long eyelashes and very
expressive eyes, like his eyeskind of light up, and you see
this like awe and wonder in hiseyes, and you see the moment
where he's like, Oh shit.
(34:20):
Oh shit, what have I been doing?
And so from that, like the bodycount from that moment on is
only people who are trying tokill him.
So I don't like it's really likeI don't know, I don't know if
(34:43):
his happy ending is earned.
SPEAKER_00 (34:45):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:45):
I don't know how I feel about Debbie saying, let's
get out of town, we'll see whathappens.
SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:51):
Because that's all that she gets.
That's all he gets is we'll goout of town, we'll see what
happens.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
And Bart going, for what it's worth, yeah, my
blessing.
The history between them and thereal, like early connection that
you see, that's part of what wasuh not tough to watch, but it
was it brought some stuff up forme because I saw this with my
(35:16):
high school boyfriend, and wehad some of those same, like
when he knocks on the door andit's a special knock and clearly
something from their high schooldays.
Yeah.
And there were things like thatthat I had with my high school
boyfriend.
And there's uh she he says, Youhaven't given me an answer, and
she's like, I'll give you ananswer if you give me an
airplane.
And so what it is is where helies on the bed and and she like
he holds her up on his feet,puts her up on his feet, and so
(35:39):
like things like that that werejust like their intimacies is
like that history and continuityof intimacy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:48):
But there wasn't continuity because there's 10
years of gap.
Yes.
Like, I want to push you to stayon this, but go into for the
postcards of the destination.
You talked about nostalgia andcan you go home again?
And like, why do we do reunions,which I think are related.
And like, I feel like thismovie, at least about this
romantic love, is saying you cango home again.
(36:08):
But what's Debbie been doing for10 years?
She hasn't dated in 10 years.
Like she actually was marriedand divorced.
unknown (36:14):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (36:15):
But let's go there.
Cause like, you know, I smellbullshit, to be frank, in this,
like, these are things we usedto do 10 years ago when we were
kids, and let's do them again.
And oh, all the feelings arecoming back.
I smell bullshit.
So can we talk about that alittle bit about like nostalgia
and can you go home again?
Because it sounds like thismovie also sort of said like you
can't with the minimum where hishome used to be.
(36:37):
Can you unpack that a little bitfrom what's in this movie?
SPEAKER_01 (36:39):
Yeah, I mean, like, you literally can't go home
again.
And he actually he calls Dr.
Oatman and he says that.
And he cannot talk to hismother.
At first, she recognizes him andthey have a conversation, but
then like later in theconversation, she's like, Oh my
goodness, you're a handsomedevil.
What's your name?
So there's that aspect of it.
(37:00):
And then the why do we doreunions?
I wanted to talk about that.
I have never been to a highschool reunion, and I never will
go to a high school reunion.
Now, part of it is becauseFacebook means I don't have to.
The people I want to stay intouch with, I'm in touch with.
I just don't have any interestin being in a room with the
(37:20):
people I don't want to stay intouch with.
In part because I really don'twant to see that particular
boyfriend again.
Honestly.
And I don't want to feel the waythat I felt in high school.
SPEAKER_00 (37:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:34):
And I don't have nostalgia for most of my
experience.
Right.
The nostalgia I have is forthings like the culture and the
music and the movies.
The movies, yeah.
But there are things that Ithink you can reclaim like the
(37:55):
connections, like the realconnections that you had with
people.
So, for example, I was on a booktour in 2022, and I'm gonna tear
up for my book Stacked withJoseph Sehai, uh, who was on the
show a few episodes ago.
And I didn't realize how much itmeant to me in until we went on
tour.
(38:16):
Went to a few cities where someof my high school friends were
who showed up who I hadn't seensince basically graduation.
And that meant so much to methat someone who I haven't seen
in 25 or 30 years came to see mebecause of something, a career
(38:36):
milestone.
And that feels like a connectionI can go home to.
Like that someone who caredabout me when I was 17 cares
about me in my 40s.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
Yeah.
And that's beautiful, and that'swhat reunions are supposed to
give us.
Yes.
Coming back to this moviethough, the way that you have
traced it out for me, like I'mwondering if all of the angst
around like losing mom, she'sstill alive, but she's not mom,
(39:10):
and losing dad, and losingwhatever he was and had in Gross
Point has been wrapped up inDebbie.
Like the fact that that yourfriends showed up for you at
that moment is so beautiful andis making you tear up now.
You're not running off withthem.
unknown (39:26):
True.
SPEAKER_00 (39:26):
You know, you're not trying to build a life with
them.
You're just like, it's like amoment of, I don't think that is
a going home again.
It's sort of a like a reminderthat home still exists in a
different form.
And it doesn't, you're nottrying to be who you were then
with them.
And running off with them.
(39:49):
I just, it feelsdisproportionate.
And I think, and I have thebenefit of not being charmed by
QSAC's delivery, because itsounds like it is exceedingly
charming.
Oh, he is so charming.
And I'm sure when I watch it,I'll be like, oh yeah, I would
run off with him too.
But in just the narrative, likethinking about the psychology
(40:11):
and like what is happening andlike what sort of makes sense
kind of psychologically withoutthe like layer of the charm.
Like running off with Debbie.
Feels like a compensation for Iliterally can't go home again.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
And it's I was doing some reading, and the filmmakers
actually had multiple differentendings, multiple potential
endings, because they weren'tsure how to end it.
And they wanted there was amovie called Miami Blues that
had a similar feel to it, whereit was a similar kind of dark
(40:49):
comedy.
Start Alec Baldwin and JenniferJason Lee, where Alec Baldwin
was kind of like a narrativewealth, not killer exactly, but
he killed a lot of people and hedies at the end.
And they didn't want that.
They didn't want it to be likehe dies at the end.
But it was a similar kind ofdark comedy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:05):
Yep.
SPEAKER_01 (41:05):
And so specifically because of Miami Blues, they
didn't want a John Cusack todie.
But it's also like you don't getto be with her.
unknown (41:15):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (41:15):
That's why he left in the first place.
SPEAKER_00 (41:17):
Yeah.
Because he's all the he's allthe more now.
Because well, before he just wasgonna go join the army.
SPEAKER_01 (41:22):
He does say he realized at some point he saw
something and he realized likethere's something more to this.
And you know, he's lost histaste for what he does, and
there's more to this, and hewants to explore the world more.
And like he is changing and hewants to change with her.
And it has never like when I saythat the continuity is for him,
(41:43):
like for him, it's never beenanyone but her.
She has moved on, even thoughshe's stayed in in place.
SPEAKER_00 (41:51):
All the more so, though, because like you and I
both know 10 years of piningabout someone, the person for
whom you're pining just has thesame face as the real human
being.
They're not the same person.
There's the Debbie of hisimagination who has either, you
know, stood stayed static orpotentially been embellished by
his imagination on a pedestal.
(42:13):
Yeah.
In ways that the actual fleshand blood Debbie did not.
Like that's I still callbullshit on continuity.
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
Yes.
Yeah.
You know, this is before uhbecause they were class of 86.
So this is before he could havekept an eye on her.
SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
Yeah.
All right.
Before we wrap up, but you hadmentioned that you wanted to
talk a little bit about likeworker solidarity in this.
So I wanted to ask you aboutthat.
Like, is this about the union?
SPEAKER_01 (42:43):
Yes.
So when Grocer and Martin areshooting at each other, when the
government agents throw open thedoors and start shooting at
them.
And so Martin and Grocer for thefirst time are on the same page,
turn and are shooting at thegovernment agents.
And once they are both dead,Grocer says, Workers of the
(43:03):
world, unite.
And he's consistently using kindof like union language about
what it is they're doing.
And in fact, it's actually not abad idea considering what they
do and how many snafuos thereare.
SPEAKER_00 (43:19):
Do you think the movie makers meant to sort of
lampoon collective bargaining bydoing that?
By putting it in the mouth ofthis reprehensible assassin?
I honestly am not sure.
SPEAKER_01 (43:33):
Because, like, what happens consistently is unfair.
I don't know.
I really don't know how we'resupposed to feel about it.
Because on the now, the writerof this, so the screenplay was
written by an unknown and thenwas like script doctored by
(43:57):
several people, including StevePink, who I don't know, but he
ended up having a small part,and then and John Cusack and one
or two other people.
The unknown said it in GrossPoint.
He's from the Detroit area, buthe said it in Gross Point
instead of his own hometown,which is Blue Collar, because he
thought that it would be a likea better setting than his
(44:19):
blue-collar hometown.
And so I don't I honestly don'tknow.
The thing that I think is reallyinteresting is that I like I
feel like Grocer's idea makessense.
Like that the way that thingswent down in that first Budapest
(44:41):
is a mess.
Although someone's happy.
Like someone Yeah.
Contract killing, I don't know.
Okay.
So and then the considering thefact that the government agents
are also treated as not exactlyreprehensible, but they're kind
(45:03):
of ridiculous.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:04):
But it's that whole like we would be bad guys that
they don't, yeah, they don'ttheir morality is just as
flexible.
SPEAKER_01 (45:09):
Yeah, exactly.
And you know, they're basicallyformer colleagues of Martin's.
Right, right.
So it's a weird, it's a weirdthing.
And then the worker solidarity,so there is a point where the
the other hitman ends upconfronting Martin in the mini
(45:30):
mart.
Like he goes back there anothertime, confronts Martin in the
mini mart.
The guy who works behind thecounter is playing a video game
with headphones on, so he has noidea what's going on, even
though shooting behind him.
And the hitman sets a bomb.
And so Martin is running out andrealizes that the clerk has no
idea, and he runs back in andgets him and pulls him out.
(45:53):
And so that's a moment of likeworker solidarity as well.
So, like Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (45:59):
I don't know.
We are out of time, so maybe wecan investigate this a little
bit more in the shit we forgotto say for our patrons.
But let me see if I can reflectback quickly to you some of the
top things that I heard.
I mean, we talked a lot aboutflexible morality, and actually
you tied that to sort of thelack of toxicity in Martin's
masculinity, which I think isright, because a lot of that
(46:22):
toxic masculinity is aboutviolence and threats of violence
and who who would win inviolence.
And since Martin knows he wouldwin, he doesn't need to lean on
sort of toxic masculinity, whichstill doesn't paint a good
picture of masculinity.
Let's be clear.
We also talked about sort ofnostalgia and like whether or
(46:43):
not you can go home again.
And there's this movie sort ofsays you literally can't, but
then also kind of pulls itspunches by suggesting that this
romantic relationship could justpick right up where it left off,
even though there's 10 yearsintervening, which you said
there was continuity becausehe's been pining for her all
(47:03):
this time.
I smell bullshit.
It doesn't sound I don't buy it.
I don't buy it.
He's been pining for a woman wholooks a lot like her, who is
completely imaginary.
We also talked a bit about whatis forgivable.
And I think part of where weimplied, I'm not sure we
actually said this outright, waslike part of the reason the
abandonment becomes forgivableis because it wasn't actually
(47:25):
about her.
It wasn't about rejecting her.
It was about him like having abunch of shit going on and being
an unformed 18-year-old versusbeing a contract killer, which
somehow does become forgivable.
I don't know.
I'm very confused by that pieceof this storyline.
We also talked about why we doreunions, and I think, and you
(47:46):
told a story that made you tearup, which is why we do reunions,
because there were we had realconnections and life has taken
us apart.
Sometimes we can be reminded ofthose connections, and that
feels really real.
At the same time, social mediabeing what it is today, there's
less of a need because we seevirtual versions of the high
(48:07):
school folks we want to see allthe time.
Many of us do.
Lastly, we talked a bit aboutsolidarity.
We have Dan Aykroyd Grocer sortof talking about unions all the
time and workers of the worldunite, which is I asked the
question like, it are the moviemakers sort of lampooning the
idea of collective bargainingand worker solidarity by putting
(48:28):
it in the mouth of this contractkiller.
We don't know.
We don't know.
Like there, it feels like apush-me-pull-me a little bit,
you know, with the saving of theclerk, but also, you know,
there's backstabbing andbetrayal across colleagues.
We are out of time, and I haveno idea what I'm doing next
time.
Do you remember?
SPEAKER_01 (48:50):
Don't.
SPEAKER_00 (48:51):
I'm gonna bring deep thoughts about something next
time, friends.
Stay tuned for more.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
(49:13):
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(49:38):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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