"To die would be a grand adventure!"
Emily is delighted to welcome her dear childhood friend--and lifelong Peter Pan enthusiast--Jenn Book Haselswerdt to the podcast this week to discuss Steven Spielberg's 1991 film Hook. Although this fantasy film suffers from a lack of editing as well as some lazy 90s pop culture stereotypes regarding fatphobia and distracted dads, Jenn explains how magical it felt to see this love letter to Peter Pan in the theater as a child.
While the storytelling gives Peter a number of strange opportunities for romance (which is partially a vestige of J.M. Barrie's personal antipathy to romance and his period-typical view of women as jealous), Jenn finds some delightful feminism in the film, especially in the form of Peter's daughter Maggie. The 7-year-old girl never backs down, even in the face of Dustin Hoffman's campy turn as the evil Captain Hook.
Jenn and the Guy sisters also talk about the deeper meaning the Neverland myth, considering the fact that Peter Pan was based on Barrie's deceased brother who never had a chance to grow up. Together, they wonder why pop culture has embraced the concept of a boy who never grows up and what it means to be a child who is never and adult, as in the original story, and an adult who was never a child, as Robin Williams' Peter Banning is at the beginning of this film.
Your adventures aren't over! To listen...to listen to this episode would be an awfully big adventure!
You can find Jenn on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sunbonnet_sue_is_tired/
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
There's a scene where Captain Hook has Maggie and
Jack in pirate school.
Their topic for the day is whyparents hate their children.
They talk about the reason yourparents read you bedtime
stories is that they want you togo to sleep so they can be by
themselves.
They were free before you.
And Maggie says, no, mommyreads us stories because she
(00:22):
loves us.
Like, yes, it's true that yourparents were free before they
had you, but they love you andthey read you stories and they
don't just want to get rid ofyou for the day.
But also this statement ismommy reads us stories because
she loves us.
And then Jack is confrontedwith well, dad doesn't.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
And then Jack is confrontedwith well, dad doesn't, as we
delve into our deep thoughtsabout stupid shit.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
This week, I'm delighted towelcome my dear childhood friend
, jen Book-Hasselsworth, toshare her deep thoughts about
the movie Hook with my sister,tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:26):
So I am welcoming JenBook-Hasselsworth, who is an
arts integration specialist inColumbia, missouri, where she
lives with her family, whichincludes two cats, ponyo and
Sasuki.
She has a BA in theater fromAmerican University and an MA in
theater history and criticismfrom the Catholic University of
America.
Her master's thesis was on thefeminine imperative in Peter Pan
(01:49):
and she got to hold originaldocuments by JM Barrie and the
1902 production with whitegloves as part of her research.
In addition to teaching throughthe arts, jen is also a
dramaturg, playwright andcrafter.
Her visual artwork, much ofwhich explores topics of
narrative and Jewish culture,has been on display at Columbia
Art League, access Arts and theGeorge Caleb Bingham Gallery.
(02:12):
Jen, I am so excited to haveyou on the show.
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So excited to be here .
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I reached out to you.
I can remember Millstone Roadrepresent, being at your house
and watching Peter Pan playingPeter Pan.
I remember that was such aformative story for you, and so
I remember reaching out to youand saying like I think that
having you on the show to talkabout Hook specifically because
(02:41):
that was a movie that came outwhen we were adolescents and how
it kind of fits into your lovefor Peter Pan would be like a
great fit for the show.
And so you know you were likeyes, please.
So thought I'd start off withasking Tracy, because I'm pretty
sure you've seen the film whatdo you remember about Hook?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I have seen this film and hi, jen, it's good to see
you, I've seen it, but it's beena very long time.
So what I remember is thatPeter Pan, as Robin Williams, is
all grown up and sort offorgets who he is, and then I
feel like somebody getskidnapped maybe his kid possibly
and he has to go back toNeverland and remember.
He has to remember his magic,and so it's all about like being
(03:29):
an adult and all about likeremembering wonder.
That's what's in my head aboutHook is that it's about
remembering wonder through thevehicle of the Peter Pan story
and Robin Williams is.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
That is grown-up Peter Pan.
That's what's in my head aboutHook.
But, em, why don't you sharewhat you've got if anyone was
going to play that character?
As an adult, I remember themoment when he kind of embraced
his Peter Pan personality.
There's the Lost Boys werehaving a food fight with
(04:15):
invisible food and all of asudden his imagination kicked in
and he could see the.
It was basically a coloredwhipped cream that they were
throwing at each other and Iremember being charmed by that.
So like I have a pretty good,good memory of it.
I remember that Phil Collins hasa has a cameo in this movie for
(04:36):
some reason, as a policeinspector for Scotland Yard, and
that Peter Pan ended up stayingin the real world because he
fell in love with WendyDarling's granddaughter and not
knowing how I felt about thatand not knowing how I felt about
Tinkerbell, who was played byJulia Roberts, being jealous
(04:59):
which I think is in the originallike she's jealous of Wendy
Darling in the original, likeshe's jealous of Wendy Darling.
So there's this like kind ofpush me, pull you, aspect of
like sex appeal and love andromance in this which you'd kind
of have to have if you have agrown up Peter Pan which is not
(05:19):
there when you have a perpetualboy.
I also remember Bob Hoskinsplayed Smee.
Since Roger Rabbit I haveadored Bob Hoskins and the
chemistry he had with I thinkit's Dustin Hoffman plays Hook,
is that right?
Their chemistry as boss andservant kind of thing.
But Smee is definitely thebrains of the operation.
(05:43):
Also, I found charming that'sbasically what I have, but it's
probably been 20 years since thelast time I've seen it.
Jen, tell me why.
Now I know.
I basically know why Peter Panis so important to you.
But why is this adaptation ofPeter Pan important?
Why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And the rest of us don't know.
So you can share the Peter Panthing.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Sorry and the rest of us don't know.
So you can share the Peter Panthing too.
Yeah, that too Sorry, I sharewith the entire class.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, for the whole class who can't see me, I do
have Peter and Tink permanentlyon my quarter sleeve.
They are a very, very importantpart of my history, but I've
been trying to work backwardsfrom why Peter Pan is so
important to me and I don'tremember how it started.
My mom pinpointed, the exactsame time that I did the same
(06:34):
point that I remembered, whichwas I was obsessed with the 1953
Mary Martin musical.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I remember that very well.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Which I would watch and video all the time, but I
don't remember why I wasobsessed with it.
And you know, hook came outafter I was standing on top of
the jungle gym with my hands onmy hips, pretending to be Peter
and making Emily I think youwere always Wendy, right, and
(07:08):
Rebecca was John and my brotherwas Michael that sounds about
right and I was always Peter,mm-hmm.
And then my grandfather passedaway in 1990, and we had tickets
to go see Kathy Rigby in PeterPan, and so my mom's best friend
, my brother and me to go seeKathy Rigby in Peter Pan, and so
my mom's best friend, mybrother and me to go see Kathy
(07:28):
Rigby in Peter Pan, while myfamily was sitting, shiva and
she flew over our heads and itwas like the most magical moment
.
And then, not too long afterthat, december 91, hook came out
and I think it was my firstadaptation of anything that I
(07:50):
loved, that I could pinpoint andbe like.
I understand the differencesbetween this and the thing that
I love, and also itssimilarities and where it's
coming from in the heart of thematter, and so I think that must
be it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I'll buy it.
I mean it totally.
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, and then Finding Neverland came out many,
many, many, many, many yearslater.
That's why I decided to writemy thesis on Peter Pan.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So, jen, I want you to give us a quick synopsis of
the film for those of us whohaven't seen it in 20 years, and
if there are any highlights ofbuckets that you're going to
talk about that you want to giveus a preview of then, now's the
time for that as well.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Awesome, great.
We open on Peter Banning, whois who Peter Pan became.
Robin Williams, his wife Maura,who is played by Caroline,
something, something, she's themom in the Princess Diaries and
their son, whose name is Jack,who's played by the wonderful
(08:56):
Charlie Corsmo, who did likefour movies ever, and they are
all wonderful and amazing.
And then he stopped acting tobe a person.
Spielberg is the director.
He signifies to us what Jack islike because he's holding a
baseball glove and a baseballwhile at his sister's play and
the play that his sister Maggie,who only ever did Hook, that's
(09:20):
it, she didn't do anything elseshe is in Peter Pan and she's
playing Wendy, and Peter isbeing played by a girl, as Peter
is traditionally played by agirl on stage, and they're doing
the dialogue from the play andit is a musical, but it's not.
The musical.
Hook was originally supposed tobe a musical and you can
(09:43):
totally tell where the songswere supposed to be, but only
one song remained, which is wild, because this movie could have
used a whole lot more editing,but they cut all the songs out.
So Peter is a little bitdistracted.
Robin Williams, because he is areal estate lawyer and he needs
(10:04):
to be lawyering.
He is your classic 90s absentdad and so he's at this play.
He gives some exposition abouthaving to go to London for a
gala for Granny Wendy that'sbeing given a wing at the
(10:26):
hospital is being named afterher.
The next part he's doing aSorkin walk with his colleagues.
They're all wearing suits andthey're very busy 1990s
executive type people.
He's getting debriefed onsomething I don't know what
they're talking about.
He gets into an elevator becausehe's got to go to the airport
(10:49):
and there is a scene or a partof the scene that signifies how
important and businessy they allare.
Because he and anothercolleague reach for their cell
phone holsters and anotherfemale employee does like a
Morricone kind of do-do-do-do-doand they draw their cell phones
at the same time.
And they're these giant youknow 1990s bricks.
(11:10):
He gets on the elevator and hiscolleagues all make fun of him
for being afraid to fly.
He is afraid to get on anairplane and fly, to get on an
airplane and fly.
During this time he is alsosending an underling to video
Jack's baseball game that hecan't make because he's at the
(11:31):
office and having to stay latefor this meeting.
So he's been present forMaggie's play but he is absent
for this giant, really importantbaseball game that Jack has and
Jack gets distracted and hestrikes out and he loses the
game for his team.
So this is the kind of dynamicthat he has set up with his
(11:52):
family.
So they're on a Pan Am flightto London and then we see Pan.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Am was still around in 1991?
I didn't even realize was stillaround in 1991?
I didn't even realize 1991.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I know what a great visual gag too.
So Jack has drawn the wholefamily like evacuating from an
airplane crash and they all haveparachutes, except for Peter,
because Peter's a terrible dadand he's going to die in a fiery
plane wreck.
He's tossing the ball on aplane.
We're in a pre-9-11 world.
Peter promises Jack that he'llgo to six games next season.
(12:27):
He says my word is my bond andJack says it's a junk bond.
Peter says stop acting like achild and grow up.
And Jack is like I am a child.
And Charlie Corsmo is just socharming in this role.
They talk about Granny Wendy.
Is she the real Wendy?
Well, she's sort of the realWendy, but when they get to her
(12:48):
house, tootles, who is one ofthe original Lost Boys, is there
and he's her kind of butler.
He's lost his marbles, so he'sa kind of flighty kind of guy.
And then the Wendy lady comesdown the stairs and she says
hello boy.
And he says hello Wendy lady.
(13:09):
And Jen Book Hasselsworth criesevery time, because that is
also how they greet each otherin the play and the book.
And it's Maggie Smith.
So she is actually in agemakeup, which is why in my head,
maggie Smith has always beenold.
She's in very subtle age makeup.
(13:31):
It's wonderful it's been 10years between visits.
She insists that the kids donot grow up, while in her house
we learn things about PeterBanning.
Besides that he's afraid offlying.
He always has to have thewindow shut so that nothing can
get in.
When Jack is talking about himbeing a real estate lawyer, he
(13:53):
uses pirate metaphor and imagery.
Wendy is absolutely taken abackthat Peter has become a pirate.
They talk about Peter and Moiraas they're getting ready for
this gala, talk about missingtheir children's childhood and
Moira throws his cell phone outthe window where it is promptly
mouthed by their dog and buriedin a hole.
(14:18):
As Peter is giving a keynotespeech at Wendy's benefit, at
the hospital where Wendy foundhomes for Peter and lots of
other orphans, captain Hookcomes and kidnaps the children
and takes them to Neverland.
We don't know that that'swhat's happening in that scene.
We know that that's what hashappened after they get home and
(14:39):
they see, you know, scratchesfrom a hook going up the wall.
Hook left a note for Petertelling him to come to Neverland
to save his children.
Tootles does a cryptic rhymeabout Hook being back, which
100% would have been a song andWendy tells Peter that he is
(15:00):
Peter Pan and reveals it to himfor the first time.
He refuses to believe it.
He gets drunk and drinks somesipping whiskey or some other
dark liquor and hallucinates.
He thinks that a ball of lighthas come to find him and she is
(15:20):
Tinkerbell the fairy.
She's real.
After he passes out from beingsuper drunk, she wraps him up
and flies him to Neverland,second star to right and
straight on till morning.
The visual is absolutely lovelyof Neverland.
This is 35 minutes into themovie, one thing that I do.
(15:42):
Yeah.
I love that it's a real.
This movie is over two hourslong.
I still love this movie.
There is a lot that could havebeen cut out like a lot, but one
thing that I found reallycharming, as Emily was talking
about cameos in the movie asthey fly over Neverland or over
(16:03):
London they're kind of drippingpixie dust and we all know that
happy thoughts and pixie dustare what make people fly.
And so there's a couple that'skissing on Tower Bridge and they
start to levitate, and thatcouple you can't see their faces
but it's George Lucas andCarrie Fisher are the kissing
couple.
I love that, which is, yeah,it's really, really lovely.
(16:26):
So we finally get to Neverland.
Peter wakes up in like pirateland.
They try to steal his shoes.
It's a whole like fish out ofwater scenario.
There's a whole lot of yada,yada, yada.
And then we find Smee, who'splayed by Bob Hoskins, who I at
the time did not know wasactually British because I knew
(16:48):
him with the Eddie Valiantaccent from who Framed Roger
Rabbit, and they do a bigprocession where they have
Hook's hook on a velvet pillowto present it to the captain.
Smee does a good morningNeverland announcement as he
(17:09):
hypes up and does a comedianintroduction to Captain Hook.
Captain Hook is Dustin Hoffmanin his campy, campy best.
It's amazing.
He notes that someone does notbelong.
He notes that someone does notbelong and you know, you think
it's Peter, but it turns out tobe another cameo, which is Glenn
(17:29):
Close in pirate attire.
They put him in the boo box,which is a treasure chest into
which they drop scorpions whilethey say boo.
The other two cameos in thisscene as pirates are David
Crosby and Jimmy Buffett, whichis really very appropriate.
There's a lot of yada, yada,yada as we introduce.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Another opportunity for a song there 100%.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yes.
They display Peter's kids in anet that's risen above the mast
of the ship.
He reveals himself because he'slike give me back my kids.
He can't fly and they can'tbelieve that he's an adult and
can't fly.
He can't fly and they can'tbelieve that he's an adult and
can't fly.
There's some great puns in thispart where he tries to like
(18:18):
climb up the mast and he's likesomebody give me a hand.
And Hook's like I already did,he can't reach his kids.
Tink talks them into notkilling Peter and the kids Give
us two days More.
Yada, yada, yada.
He gets knocked overboard,kissed by some mermaids who give
him breath power, I don't knowunderwater, and then he wakes up
(18:40):
in the Lost Boys treehousewhere we meet Rufio, who is the
new leader of the Lost Boys,played by the wonderful Dante
Bosco, who more modern audiencesmight know as the voice of Zuko
in the Avatar and Korra series.
(19:01):
They do what I noted as a tourof ridiculousness.
As he runs through the LostBoys land and finds that it has
been completely 90s-ed up withskateboard half pipes and
one-on-one basketball with coolflips.
There is a very weirdcould-have-been-really-edited
(19:23):
scene where Captain Hook isabout to unalive himself and
he's like don't stop me, Smee,don't stop me.
And Smee is like, oh good, notagain.
And then he's like stop me,smee, stop me, I'm actually
going to do it this time, stopme.
And Smee stops him.
Comes up with the plan thatCaptain Hook should get Peter's
(19:43):
kids to love him instead ofPeter, and that's what would
really kill him if Peter's kidslove him.
We have a training montage ofPeter losing weight to fight
with Hook.
There's a lot of body shaminghere, even though one of the
(20:05):
really prominent Lost Boys is abigger kid and of course his
name is Thud Butt.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And he's got two days to train, right?
I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He's got two days to train and they're all like lose
that weight, you're real fat andit's like I don't think that
that like teach him how to holda sword maybe is what he needs.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Not helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Also could have been a song.
They sit down to dinner.
Everybody say grace and theyall go grace while Peter's like,
oh, thank you Lord.
Then the kids do amazing spacework while they eat invisible
foods.
Peter is real hungry, he can'tdo it.
He and Rufio insult each otherback and forth and through
(20:50):
becoming Robin Williams, he alsobecomes the pan and is able to
use his imagination by you know,freestyle, you, rude, bag, food
, dude or something like that.
The kids say you're doing it,you're using your imagination,
you're playing with us, peter.
And all of a sudden Peter cansee the food in front of him.
(21:12):
It's a feast.
They have a big food fight,like Emily said, with the
food-colored whipped cream.
It's really, really lovely.
But he still can't fly yetbecause he hasn't found his
happy thought.
Maggie, peter's daughter, stillhates Captain Hook because she
wants her mommy.
But Jack learns to become apirate and starts forgetting
(21:34):
about home.
So we see him smashing thewatch that Peter gave him.
At the beginning of the moviewe see him dressing up as
Captain Hook wearing the Regencywig, and Hook says you know
your dad couldn't save you wig.
(21:57):
And Hook says you know your dadcouldn't save you and Jack says
he wouldn't save us.
He could have tried, but hedidn't.
So Jack chooses to become apirate and Hook supports him
playing baseball.
They make two baseball teams,both called the Pirates.
They have a whole baseball gameand they cheer for Jack and
they're there for him in a waythat Peter wouldn't be there for
(22:20):
him because he was an absent90s dad.
They have a big baseball scenewhere the Lost Boys are, you
know three kids in trench coatspiled on top of each other,
three kids in trench coats piledon top of each other, disguised
as pirates.
They cheer for Jack.
The pirates are saying run homeJack, run home Jack.
(22:40):
And Jack is like wait, what'sthis home you're talking about
that I should run to?
And they're like wait, we'vegot it backwards.
Home run Jack, home run Jack.
And Jack's like, oh okay, I gotto hit a home run Jack.
Home run Jack.
And Jack's like, oh okay, I gotto hit a home run More.
Yada, yada, yada-ing.
(23:02):
Peter finds his old tree housewhere he lived with Wendy.
He starts to remember oh,because he got knocked on the
head by Jack's home run ball.
He sees his own childhoodreflection in the mirror or in
the lake.
His shadow starts doing funnythings and he finds that his
happy thought is his children,which is really, really awesome.
They find you are the pan hetalks through the entire preface
(23:25):
and beginning of the Peter Panstory that we know.
And then Tink's feelings are sobig, they're too big for her
body and she becomes full-sizeJulia Roberts for the first time
and only time in the wholemovie, because her feelings are
so big they couldn't becontained in her little body.
And she professes her love toPeter and kisses him and he says
(23:49):
Moira, I gotta get back home toMoira, I gotta save my kids and
get back home to them.
And I got to save my kids andget back home to them.
And her heart is broken.
But she understands.
They all suit up to battle thepirates.
They go and battle the pirates,they win.
Thudbutt helps them win bybecoming a ball and rolling down
(24:11):
the stairs.
His weight is the perfect thingBody neutrality, his body works
to help them seize the day.
It's not Newsies, this one'sactually not a musical.
Hook asks how did you evermanage to fit into those
smashing tights again, peter?
Peter and Hook do the same backand forth that they do in the
(24:31):
original Insolent youth.
Prepare to meet thy doom, darkand sinister man have at thee.
It is unclear to me whetherCaptain Hook knows that he's
quoting something that he said30 years before.
They win the battle, but notuntil after Hook runs Rufio
(24:52):
through with a sword and he isno longer no longer alive.
Until after Hook runs Rufiothrough with a sword and he is
no longer alive.
Hook does some bad form tricksto Peter, but ultimately Peter
winds up asking him or makinghim yield.
Hook does wind up disappearingin a very weird way, which is
(25:13):
that potentially the crocodilewho originally ate his hand and
he had taxidermied and stuffedin the middle of Neverland,
might have come to life andeaten him.
It's very unclear and weird.
But he's not there anymore andso he has Tink, sprinkle the
kids with the pixie dust andthey fly home.
(25:35):
Peter names Thudbutt the newleader of the Lost Boys.
Now that he's going home andRufio's not around anymore, he
says I want you to take care ofeveryone who's smaller than you.
The smallest one says then whodo I look after?
And Peter says never bugs,little ones.
They fly home.
Moira wakes up and her kids arethere and Smee is a street
(26:00):
sweeper.
So it's unclear about whetherto him.
You know whether it's all beena dream, but the kids remember
it as well.
Now they need to leave thewindow open always, instead of
having it closed.
He kisses Moira, which issomething that he'd not done
previously in the movie.
(26:22):
Apparently, neverland ismarriage counseling.
He had dug up his phone fromwhere Nana had buried it, but
now he throws it out the windowagain.
Where Nana had buried it.
But now he throws it out thewindow again.
And Thudbutt had given PeterTootles marbles which he had
left behind in Neverland.
So he gives Tootles back hismarbles which he didn't lose
(26:44):
after all, and they were hishappy thought and he goes flying
away through London.
And it ends with another famousline from Peter Pan Someone
says so, peter, your adventuresare over.
And he says no to live.
To live will be an awfully bigadventure.
End of movie.
That was more of a synopsis,but see, it could have been
(27:07):
edited.
So much, there's so much inthis movie.
It hard to be concise, it reallyis I didn't even like there's
so much, I didn't go over sowhere would you like to start in
the analysis?
so I think, just because I'vebeen thinking about what does it
(27:32):
mean to be an adult versus whatdoes it mean to be a child?
And so Peter had been.
He's forgotten everything upuntil Wendy, until he moved to
moved, he picked up two guys ina truck, moved to London from
(27:54):
Neverland, but he doesn'tremember anything prior to being
12 or 13 years old when hefirst sees Moira in the house
where he left Wendy and Wendy isnow an older woman and she
finds him a home.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore that, so he doesn't
remember Neverland.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore that, so he doesn't
(28:14):
remember Neverland.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore Neverland, so he doesn't
remember being a child.
And his whole thing with hischildren is grow up, stop being
a child and he doesn't know howhe can incorporate these
childish things or childlikethings into being an adult.
(28:39):
And even when he remembers thathe's Peter Pan, he is purely
child for a moment, until heremembers Moira, until he
remembers that he's a father andthen he's able to put those two
parts of himself back togetherand I think the idea of being
(29:00):
there, like just rememberingwhat it was like to be a child,
leads to that 90s absent dadtrope of being an adult is the
only important thing, and hedoesn't have anything.
Like you know, I need to putfood on the table or I need to
(29:21):
like.
This is what I need to do withthe money.
It's just.
Dad is a grownup and he can'trelate to us.
Being an adult is the mostimportant thing you can be.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, just to build on that.
I feel like that's reallyinteresting, just in part just
because of why JM Barrie wrotethis, because he had a brother
who died and so who never grewup and so like would forever be
young, would forever be PeterPan, and so Peter Banning is the
(29:55):
opposite, is forever an adult.
You know, had never, like neverexperienced childhood.
I'm thinking about before my daddied.
There was a point where he saidhe had forgotten what it was
like to be a child, like he hadgotten to an age where he'd
forgotten what it was like to bea child, and I wish I could
remember when he said that to me, whether it was before or after
I'd had kids, because heabsolutely adored being a
(30:18):
grandfather.
But I also, like he reallyliked babies, like I'm not sure
how he would feel about, likeyou know, elementary school kids
and like once they've got amind of their own Right.
But that's really interestingand that's something that we've
(30:38):
talked about a little bit beforein previous episodes, like in
Big, where as adults, we forgetwhat it's like to stay connected
to that childlike wonder thatis such an important part of
humanity that we lose in the.
Being an adult is the mostimportant thing.
Like that we think, like I gotto do the spreadsheets, but then
(30:58):
we also, you know, if yourefuse to accept any
responsibility, then you like,you know the overcompensating
and then, but then there's thelike, the overlap, where, like
with peter, here he's, he islike taking, he's saying like a
responsibility so important andthen he's missing the
responsibility of being a fatherby completely missing his son's
(31:20):
baseball games, which is somuch more important than
whatever he's doing with thesereal estate mergers or whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Absolutely and I think about like I'm really
fortunate in my work that I doLike my work is playing and my
school, where I work, isinspired by Montessori and
Reggio Emilia work and MariaMontessori famously said play is
the work of children and so Iget to sit on the floor and I
(31:48):
get to make things with pom-pomsand things like that as an arts
integration specialist and Ithink part of what separates
being a normal adult because I'mnot a normal adult I think part
of what separates being anormal adult from being a child
is the curiosity about the worldand that's what leads to play.
(32:13):
So in my research for my thesis,part of my thesis is that
Neverland is a game of piratesand Indians and that everyone,
all the children, are repeatingwhat they've heard.
And Indians is JM Barrie'slanguage, and so everyone is
repeating what they've heardtheir parents say about these
(32:35):
different kinds of people.
And it actually isn't until Ijust said that just now that I
didn't realize that the Indiansare not in this movie at all.
Had not noticed that till rightthis very moment.
But yeah, it's that wonder,it's that play, it's that if
anything in the world could beon this table, what would I have
(32:56):
it be, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I was also thinking about Big, so I was glad that
you mentioned it because it alsohas been coming up for me and
thinking about Wonder, but alsoactually SpongeBob, like when we
talked about SpongeBob and likewhen you were talking about
Imagination 10 and when youfinally saw it and I thought
about that meme you know, likeimagination with the rainbow.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I gotta tell you real quick that one of my that's one
of the things that I do withthe kiddos is we talk about the
tools that we have in ourtoolbox as artists and I say you
make your fists, you cross themat the wrists, you pop out your
sparkle fingers and you make arainbow above your head like
SpongeBob, and that is.
I gotta say that at thebeginning of every school year.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
That's fantastic, that's alsowell so.
I've I've had a recent likephilosophical conversation with
my 14 year old.
He's a writer too and like, ohmy God, this, this kid is, is
like a copy of me in so manyways.
And I'd recently told him, likeyou know, before you have kids,
one of the things they tell youis that the hardest thing of
parenting is your kids make thesame mistakes you did and you
can't, like you see it comingand you can't stop them from
(34:03):
making those mistakes.
And before I had kids, I waslike what?
I don't know what mistakes mykids will make.
And then I had him and I toldhim that, because he is getting
himself twisted in knots aboutlike I'm not productive enough
with my writing, I'm not doingenough with my writing, what if
I never get published?
What if this then that happens,which is exactly the same crap
that I put myself through andlike 30, 40 years of like
(34:25):
overthinking my writing and likesqueezing all the joy out of it
.
And I've told him that and I'mlike, please don't do this to
yourself.
But it's the same sort of thingwhere it's the adult pressure on
the childlike wonder, adultpressure on the childlike wonder
.
Like, because it's the joy andthe just, the imagination and
(34:47):
interest that is innately in mefrom being a small child making
up stories.
But then there's the adultpressure of like, but I got to
do something with this that likesqueezes all of the air out of
it, and so, you know, I ended uphaving writer's block for six
years and so, like, that's kindof what this story is.
(35:07):
There's a bit of a meditationon that, which is why it's, I
think, a really interestingadaptation of this beloved story
.
Because, like, what if PeterPan grew up?
There's a really interestingquestion there Like, what would
happen to this like incrediblyfree character if he had to go
through the pressures ofadulthood?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Hook has Maggie and Jack in pirate school and their
topic for the day is why parentshate their children and they
talk about the reason yourparents read you bedtime stories
is that they want you to go tosleep so they can be by
themselves.
And they were free before you,free before you, and now they
(36:08):
can't be that anymore.
And Maggie says no, mommy readsus stories because she loves us
.
And Hook gives her an F and shefreaks out because she's seven
years old and she's never gottenan F.
She's like an F, and I see thatvery much coming from Peter.
But that's such an amazingstatement of no, even like yes,
it's true that your parents werefree before they had you, but
(36:30):
they love you and they read youstories and they don't just want
to get rid of you for the day,you know, and I think that's
such a great statement.
But also this statement ismommy reads us stories because
she loves us.
And then Jack is confrontedwith Well, Dad doesn't.
This movie, I'm relativelycertain, does not pass the
(36:54):
Bechdel test, but it does havestrong-named female characters
who have backstories and whohave personalities of their own
and are not necessarily justthere to serve the story, and
Maggie is a character that I'mreally glad my daughter can see
(37:16):
specifically.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Jen, I want to take us to a slightly different place
.
I want to ask you about this.
Emily named that.
Barry wrote this because of hisdeceased brother, who can never
grow up, and I'm feeling atension that I'd love to hear
you talk about a little bit more.
Like Neverland is a game ofpirates and Indians and so it's
just happening all the time.
It's basically imagination, butalso maybe Neverland is death
(37:40):
because Barry's brother is there.
Also, maybe Neverland is deathbecause Barry's brother is there
, but also Neverland is wherethis distracted dad who's
forgotten what actually matters,where he goes to find his
wonder Like all three feel likethey're true in Hook and maybe
in the Peter Pan original, andI'd love to hear you like kind
of unpack that a little bit andalso like how those things
(38:03):
interact with one another, likehow all three of those things
are true and maybe others that Ihaven't thought of.
Like what is neverland?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
that is such a great question and I love it so much.
So one thing that's I'm not ahundred percent sure.
And stop, I'm not not 100% sure.
When Tinkerbell is taking Peterin Hook back to Neverland, he
says I see a bright light andI'm moving towards the light.
(38:33):
And that's really the onlyinkling that we get in this
particular narrative, thatNeverland might be death.
I mean, of course he's talkingabout he's drunk, he's talking
about the light of Tinkerbellherself.
But I was also thinking whilewatching the movie this Go Round
.
You know how, like wheneverpeople are haunted or whenever
(38:55):
people think they see ghosts,they think they see little
Victorian children.
And that's what Peter Pan isright, little Victorian children
and Edwardian.
But in Hook you've also got thekids from the 90s, the 1990s,
well, I guess the 80s.
And I had been thinkingrecently anyway, because my
(39:17):
house was built in 1999, that ifthere was a ghost in my house,
that ghost would be from the2000s.
And you don't ever see ghostsfrom the 2000s, you don't ever
see ghosts from the 90s.
There's no like ghostswandering around in flannels and
a Nirvana shirt, right?
So we do have, except in thevery first season of American
(39:37):
Horror Story spoilers, and so wedo have.
If Neverland is death, thesekids who have come after Peter
left, who he didn't know.
There are still some of theoriginal Lost Boys, there are
the twins, they're still there,tootles left, but there are lots
of kids that Peter didn't know,like Rufio, and those are the
(40:01):
ghosts of the 90s.
Those are the children whofound Neverland in the 80s and
90s and that's why Neverland isdifferent than it was.
Since Peter was there.
Neverland.
There's a thought that thereason a lot of people have very
(40:22):
few people have written abouthook, lots of people have
written about peter pan, and sothere's a school of thought that
the reason that kiddos do growup in neverland but peter either
kicks them out and they becomepirates and that's where pirates
come from or p Peter kills themonce they start getting older.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, that's dark yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Wow, peter's not in the classic story, right?
If we look at it from an adultperspective, captain Hook has
gotten lost.
He's a cavalier, king CharlesII cavalier.
That's why he looks like hedoes with the big wig and the
(41:09):
big coat Also drag queen.
But they wouldn't let me writeabout that for my thesis, so
we're going to put that aside.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Damn shame, because I would read that.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
He's a panto dame in the Victorian panto tradition.
Anyway, I'll write that someday.
So he and his crew get lostsomehow in Neverland, or maybe
they died and were taken toNeverland somehow.
Here's this bratty 11-year-oldkid who's like okay, you're my
(41:41):
enemy.
Now when we play pirates, Ihave to fight the pirates
because that's my game.
They become mortal enemies.
The kid chops off his hand,throws it into the ocean or the
lagoon where it's eaten by acrocodile who then has a taste
for human flesh and comes afterHook for the rest of his life,
and so Hook is fighting for hislife because this 11-year-old
(42:04):
can't leave him alone.
So I mean, that's Peter Panfrom an adult perspective, right
, and so Peter's not a great guy.
A very important part of hisnarrative in the original story
is that Peter forgets, and sothat's completely in character
for him and Hook.
When Peter comes to visit Wendydecades in the future, tink has
(42:31):
died because fairies don't havelong lives.
Wendy asks about her and Petersays who's Tink?
He forgets, and he comes to seeWendy less and less and less
frequently, and that is what wesee in Hook, but he forgets, and
so I'm not sure whether that'sthe dead forget about the living
(42:57):
or kids have short memories,but there's something there.
I don't know if that answersyour question.
I don't know if there is ananswer to that question, yeah
that's fair.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I wonder too if the forgetting is almost necessary
to avoid growing up.
Yeah, right, yeah, I feel likepart of the thesis of this and
Big and SpongeBob is that beingan adult is not actually about
the responsibility, the sort ofthe negative piece of adulthood
is just sort of the cumulativeeffect of like forgetting what
(43:30):
matters.
But in order to, perhaps inorder to stay perpetually
childlike, one has to forgetthings especially difficult,
things like Tinkerbell's death.
To forget things especiallydifficult, things like
Tinkerbell's death, right, likeremembering your best friend's
death, is going to take awaysome of your childlike wonder.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
It's going to adultify you in some way.
And from there, something thatI think is really interesting is
it's not a coincidence thatMichael Jackson called his home
Neverland Ranch, and he reallyidentified with Peter Pan as
well.
And I recently heard anotherwriter say that writers tend to
continually write about whereverthey got stuck in childhood.
(44:14):
And apparently Stephen King sawa friend get in a horrible
accident when he was very, verysmall and that's why he writes
horror.
And you know, clearly, michaelJackson was horribly abused as a
child, which is why he gotstuck in this, whatever this
childlike place he was, becauseNeverland does not seem like
(44:36):
something that you would want toaspire to and Peter Pan does
not seem like something youwould want to aspire to, because
that is not growth.
Childlike wonder is somethingthat you want to include into
your growth but not have at theexpense of remembering Tink,
(45:01):
remembering your best friend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so solike I just I think that it's
really fascinating that it'slike the people who watch Fight
Club without recognizing, like,what it's about, like watch it
on, like without unironically,like I want to start a Fight
Club, it's like no, no, no, youdidn't get the movie, and not
(45:21):
that I, like I have a lot ofsympathy for, like the horrible
abuse that Jackson went through,and yearning for a place where
you can feel you can have thechildhood you never had, but not
recognizing that that is notsomething to want to live in you
know Nice place to visit.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Something that's reallyinteresting too about that is
that one of the things aboutbeing a child is that you don't
form adult relationships orrelationships in the way that
adults do.
And Tinkerbell in the originalis very much in love with Peter.
Her body's too small to holdmore than one emotion at a time.
(46:02):
That's in there in the original.
And Wendy also loves Peterbecause she is a girl on the
precipice of becoming a woman,and so she understands what
adult relationships are.
And the first time they meet shewants to give him a kiss and he
holds his hand out because hethinks she's going to give him
something, and so she gives hima thimble.
(46:22):
The acorn that he gives her inreturn winds up saving her life
when Tink tries to have the LostBoys murder her, because you
know, rivals and girls can't befriends with each other in
popular culture.
But you know, wendy loves Peter, tink loves Peter.
Peter doesn't form adultrelationships, and there is a
(46:45):
thought that JM Berry did nothave inappropriate relationships
with the boys to whom hededicated Peter Pan, and he also
did not have an inappropriaterelationship with their mother,
who was married.
Berry was married, but there isa real serious thought that he
might have been asexual andcould not or did not form, and
(47:08):
maybe aromantic as well, did notor could not form those
relationships with people in theway that a Victorian and
Edwardian society would haveexpected one.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I feel like there's two things that you said in
advance that I want to just likelift up.
And if you have any additionalcomment, because I want to make
sure that our listeners hearthis One is I'll just name it
because you started to say itbut there's something really
fascinating about the idea thatthe play somehow exists in the
world of Hook, and so we have,like, when you said, it's
(47:44):
unclear whether or not Hookrealizes he's saying something
that he said 30 years ago orwhatever I think the cosmology
of that world that's created bythat literature that is also the
literature is really reallyinteresting to me.
So I just wanted to lift thatup a little bit more explicitly.
And then the other thing thatyou said that we haven't
actually touched on is the waysin which this film, this
adaptation, is a love letter toPeter Pan, and so if you wanted
(48:07):
to say a few words about thatbefore we wrap up, I wanted to
give you the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah, I think it's really Spielberg and the
screenwriters just obviouslyknow the source material so so
well, and I think that the LostBoys Treehouse in particular is
exactly how I would havepictured it, and it's so full of
childlike wonder.
At one point, when they'resaying goodnight to each other,
(48:34):
one of them blows a raspberry toblow out his nightlight, which
is just so lovely.
I think that having so manyquotes in there from Peter Pan
and even referencing the GreatOrmond Street Hospital, which is
where all of the royalties fromPeter Pan go in perpetuity, as
(48:56):
willed by JM Barrie, and iswhere Wendy is getting honored
in this movie Knowing that Wendyname-checking JM Barry but
saying that she and her brotherswould tell these stories to
each other and Mr Barry wrotethem down even nods to the
history of the story itselfrather than just quoting it.
(49:20):
And I love to, because I am aperson who, in my criticism and
I do have a degree in theater,history and criticism, but I
recognize that criticism doesn'thave to be negative as you do
when you, with this podcast, puta critical eye on things, but
that doesn't mean being negativeor nasty about them.
I don't find it pleasurable totalk in a negative way about
(49:44):
these things, and watching Hookas an adaptation, as well as a
sequel, in such a loving way issuch an absolute pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
They don't cast a negative 90sGen X eye on the original
(50:06):
property.
It's very earnest.
Could have been edited a lotmore, but incredibly earnest and
loving.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And it's such a pleasure to watch.
Thank you, okay, let me see ifI can reflect back what I heard.
So that was a beautiful placeto land, so we spent a lot of
time talking about.
I think the biggest bucket iswhat does it mean to be an adult
and what does it mean to be achild, and I think there's a lot
there to think about.
There's priorities and wonderand imagination and play, and
you brought in Maria Montessoriin thinking about that in terms
(50:47):
of, you know, play being thework of being a child and sort
of the focus on work and focuson being an adult being the most
important thing was thehypothesis that is being
countered by this movie,hypothesis that is being
countered by this movie and thatintersects in interesting ways
(51:08):
by the mechanism of Neverland.
I think.
I think there's somethingreally interesting there that,
when we take the broaderproperty not just Hook, but the
broader property of the PeterPan kind of mythos that has been
created in the wake of the playand all of the various
adaptations, that has beencreated in the wake of the play
and all of the variousadaptations, where Neverland is
the place where our Peter, asRobin Williams, goes to remind
(51:29):
himself of wonder, but it isalso maybe death, and it is also
a place where, if you don'tforget the things that matter,
you have to leave or maybe dieor maybe become a pirate, so
like it's not unqualified, it isnot uncomplicated, and I think
that's really interesting andreally important and probably
(51:51):
why all of these years thisproperty continues to be so
animating for you.
Also, you talked about this assort of the when we meet him,
peter banning, as thequintessential distracted 90s
dad who we all had a good timeshitting on then I mean, there's
so many examples of thatcharacter, so I think that's
sort of interesting as like atime capsule from the 90s.
(52:14):
That's sort of interesting.
And then just very quicklyprobably doesn't pass bechdel
but does give some really strongand fully fleshed out and
interesting female characterswith voices, including young
Maggie, who I think it's reallypoignant and sweet that you
named.
You're glad that your daughter,who I just had the opportunity
(52:34):
to meet virtually and is threeand a half, and you're glad that
she has Maggie as a potentialrole model.
So that's pretty great.
And then I relifted up, whichyou sort of said in passing, the
fact that there's thisinteresting cosmology of this
literature that exists in theworld of itself but also
references it but also is anadaptation of it, like all of
(52:57):
those self-referential pointswhich make it ultimately a love
letter to the original Barry,which is really really lovely,
and I think also like allows youwhere you just landed, that we
can have a critical eye and sortof see all of these things and
all of this furniture of themind that this has continued to
impart about childhood andadulthood and about rivalries
(53:20):
between women, which you justsaid in passing, but I think
it's worth like renaming.
And about like what does itmean to have adult relationships
?
Like when we're talking aboutromance and sex and the fact
that in the original sourcematerial, wendy wants to give
him a kiss and so he puts outhis hand, and like what does
that have to say about adulthood?
Like there's so much in there.
This is really really deep.
(53:40):
I feel like we could have gone.
We're going over time, but wecould have gone a lot, lot
longer.
What did I miss from ourconversation?
In my attempt to share thehighlights, I think I did it.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
There could have been a lot more music.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Oh yes, actually, that actually is an important
highlight.
I think from this is what Ilearned from Jen.
This movie could have been alot shorter and it could have
had music from Jen.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
This movie could have been a lot shorter and it could
have had music.
The only song is sung by Maggieoh yes, I remember that.
That's the one song and itreverberates all through
Neverland.
You can hear it from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Yeah Well, Jen, it was wonderful to see you again.
It's been a pleasure.
I used to babysit for Jen andher brother when we were kids.
So this is like old home weekfor reals.
This is so awesome.
Thank you so much.
It was really, really great tohave you on the show.
(54:34):
Is there a?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
way to get in touch with you.
If folks want to socials, I amon Instagram at sunbonnet
underscore sue, underscore isunderscore tired.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Sunbonnet Sue is tired.
We will link to it in the shownotes.
Thank you so much, and nextweek it is my turn.
I will be bringing my deepthoughts about the Disney
animated film, the Sword in theStone Very, very cool.
Until then, all right.
Until then, this show is alabor of love, but that doesn't
(55:07):
make it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us and, of
course, share the show with orleave a positive review so
others can find us and, ofcourse, share the show with your
people.
Thanks for listening.
(55:27):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
There's a scene where Captain Hook has Maggie and
Jack in pirate school.
Their topic for the day is whyparents hate their children.
They talk about the reason yourparents read you bedtime
stories is that they want you togo to sleep so they can be by
themselves.
They were free before you.
And Maggie says, no, mommyreads us stories because she
(00:22):
loves us.
Like, yes, it's true that yourparents were free before they
had you, but they love you andthey read you stories and they
don't just want to get rid ofyou for the day.
But also this statement ismommy reads us stories because
she loves us.
And then Jack is confrontedwith well, dad doesn't.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
And then Jack is confrontedwith well, dad doesn't, as we
delve into our deep thoughtsabout stupid shit.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
This week, I'm delighted towelcome my dear childhood friend
, jen Book-Hasselsworth, toshare her deep thoughts about
the movie Hook with my sister,tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:26):
So I am welcoming JenBook-Hasselsworth, who is an
arts integration specialist inColumbia, missouri, where she
lives with her family, whichincludes two cats, ponyo and
Sasuki.
She has a BA in theater fromAmerican University and an MA in
theater history and criticismfrom the Catholic University of
America.
Her master's thesis was on thefeminine imperative in Peter Pan
(01:49):
and she got to hold originaldocuments by JM Barrie and the
1902 production with whitegloves as part of her research.
In addition to teaching throughthe arts, jen is also a
dramaturg, playwright andcrafter.
Her visual artwork, much ofwhich explores topics of
narrative and Jewish culture,has been on display at Columbia
Art League, access Arts and theGeorge Caleb Bingham Gallery.
(02:12):
Jen, I am so excited to haveyou on the show.
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
So excited to be here .
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
I reached out to you.
I can remember Millstone Roadrepresent, being at your house
and watching Peter Pan playingPeter Pan.
I remember that was such aformative story for you, and so
I remember reaching out to youand saying like I think that
having you on the show to talkabout Hook specifically because
(02:41):
that was a movie that came outwhen we were adolescents and how
it kind of fits into your lovefor Peter Pan would be like a
great fit for the show.
And so you know you were likeyes, please.
So thought I'd start off withasking Tracy, because I'm pretty
sure you've seen the film whatdo you remember about Hook?
Speaker 2 (03:08):
I have seen this film and hi, jen, it's good to see
you, I've seen it, but it's beena very long time.
So what I remember is thatPeter Pan, as Robin Williams, is
all grown up and sort offorgets who he is, and then I
feel like somebody getskidnapped maybe his kid possibly
and he has to go back toNeverland and remember.
He has to remember his magic,and so it's all about like being
(03:29):
an adult and all about likeremembering wonder.
That's what's in my head aboutHook is that it's about
remembering wonder through thevehicle of the Peter Pan story
and Robin Williams is.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
That is grown-up Peter Pan.
That's what's in my head aboutHook.
But, em, why don't you sharewhat you've got if anyone was
going to play that character?
As an adult, I remember themoment when he kind of embraced
his Peter Pan personality.
There's the Lost Boys werehaving a food fight with
(04:15):
invisible food and all of asudden his imagination kicked in
and he could see the.
It was basically a coloredwhipped cream that they were
throwing at each other and Iremember being charmed by that.
So like I have a pretty good,good memory of it.
I remember that Phil Collins hasa has a cameo in this movie for
(04:36):
some reason, as a policeinspector for Scotland Yard, and
that Peter Pan ended up stayingin the real world because he
fell in love with WendyDarling's granddaughter and not
knowing how I felt about thatand not knowing how I felt about
Tinkerbell, who was played byJulia Roberts, being jealous
(04:59):
which I think is in the originallike she's jealous of Wendy
Darling in the original, likeshe's jealous of Wendy Darling.
So there's this like kind ofpush me, pull you, aspect of
like sex appeal and love andromance in this which you'd kind
of have to have if you have agrown up Peter Pan which is not
(05:19):
there when you have a perpetualboy.
I also remember Bob Hoskinsplayed Smee.
Since Roger Rabbit I haveadored Bob Hoskins and the
chemistry he had with I thinkit's Dustin Hoffman plays Hook,
is that right?
Their chemistry as boss andservant kind of thing.
But Smee is definitely thebrains of the operation.
(05:43):
Also, I found charming that'sbasically what I have, but it's
probably been 20 years since thelast time I've seen it.
Jen, tell me why.
Now I know.
I basically know why Peter Panis so important to you.
But why is this adaptation ofPeter Pan important?
Why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
And the rest of us don't know.
So you can share the Peter Panthing.
Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Sorry and the rest of us don't know.
So you can share the Peter Panthing too.
Yeah, that too Sorry, I sharewith the entire class.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, for the whole class who can't see me, I do
have Peter and Tink permanentlyon my quarter sleeve.
They are a very, very importantpart of my history, but I've
been trying to work backwardsfrom why Peter Pan is so
important to me and I don'tremember how it started.
My mom pinpointed, the exactsame time that I did the same
(06:34):
point that I remembered, whichwas I was obsessed with the 1953
Mary Martin musical.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I remember that very well.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Which I would watch and video all the time, but I
don't remember why I wasobsessed with it.
And you know, hook came outafter I was standing on top of
the jungle gym with my hands onmy hips, pretending to be Peter
and making Emily I think youwere always Wendy, right, and
(07:08):
Rebecca was John and my brotherwas Michael that sounds about
right and I was always Peter,mm-hmm.
And then my grandfather passedaway in 1990, and we had tickets
to go see Kathy Rigby in PeterPan, and so my mom's best friend
, my brother and me to go seeKathy Rigby in Peter Pan, and so
my mom's best friend, mybrother and me to go see Kathy
(07:28):
Rigby in Peter Pan, while myfamily was sitting, shiva and
she flew over our heads and itwas like the most magical moment
.
And then, not too long afterthat, december 91, hook came out
and I think it was my firstadaptation of anything that I
(07:50):
loved, that I could pinpoint andbe like.
I understand the differencesbetween this and the thing that
I love, and also itssimilarities and where it's
coming from in the heart of thematter, and so I think that must
be it.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I'll buy it.
I mean it totally.
Yeah, makes sense.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, and then Finding Neverland came out many,
many, many, many, many yearslater.
That's why I decided to writemy thesis on Peter Pan.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
So, jen, I want you to give us a quick synopsis of
the film for those of us whohaven't seen it in 20 years, and
if there are any highlights ofbuckets that you're going to
talk about that you want to giveus a preview of then, now's the
time for that as well.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Awesome, great.
We open on Peter Banning, whois who Peter Pan became.
Robin Williams, his wife Maura,who is played by Caroline,
something, something, she's themom in the Princess Diaries and
their son, whose name is Jack,who's played by the wonderful
(08:56):
Charlie Corsmo, who did likefour movies ever, and they are
all wonderful and amazing.
And then he stopped acting tobe a person.
Spielberg is the director.
He signifies to us what Jack islike because he's holding a
baseball glove and a baseballwhile at his sister's play and
the play that his sister Maggie,who only ever did Hook, that's
(09:20):
it, she didn't do anything elseshe is in Peter Pan and she's
playing Wendy, and Peter isbeing played by a girl, as Peter
is traditionally played by agirl on stage, and they're doing
the dialogue from the play andit is a musical, but it's not.
The musical.
Hook was originally supposed tobe a musical and you can
(09:43):
totally tell where the songswere supposed to be, but only
one song remained, which is wild, because this movie could have
used a whole lot more editing,but they cut all the songs out.
So Peter is a little bitdistracted.
Robin Williams, because he is areal estate lawyer and he needs
(10:04):
to be lawyering.
He is your classic 90s absentdad and so he's at this play.
He gives some exposition abouthaving to go to London for a
gala for Granny Wendy that'sbeing given a wing at the
(10:26):
hospital is being named afterher.
The next part he's doing aSorkin walk with his colleagues.
They're all wearing suits andthey're very busy 1990s
executive type people.
He's getting debriefed onsomething I don't know what
they're talking about.
He gets into an elevator becausehe's got to go to the airport
(10:49):
and there is a scene or a partof the scene that signifies how
important and businessy they allare.
Because he and anothercolleague reach for their cell
phone holsters and anotherfemale employee does like a
Morricone kind of do-do-do-do-doand they draw their cell phones
at the same time.
And they're these giant youknow 1990s bricks.
(11:10):
He gets on the elevator and hiscolleagues all make fun of him
for being afraid to fly.
He is afraid to get on anairplane and fly, to get on an
airplane and fly.
During this time he is alsosending an underling to video
Jack's baseball game that hecan't make because he's at the
(11:31):
office and having to stay latefor this meeting.
So he's been present forMaggie's play but he is absent
for this giant, really importantbaseball game that Jack has and
Jack gets distracted and hestrikes out and he loses the
game for his team.
So this is the kind of dynamicthat he has set up with his
(11:52):
family.
So they're on a Pan Am flightto London and then we see Pan.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Am was still around in 1991?
I didn't even realize was stillaround in 1991?
I didn't even realize 1991.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
I know what a great visual gag too.
So Jack has drawn the wholefamily like evacuating from an
airplane crash and they all haveparachutes, except for Peter,
because Peter's a terrible dadand he's going to die in a fiery
plane wreck.
He's tossing the ball on aplane.
We're in a pre-9-11 world.
Peter promises Jack that he'llgo to six games next season.
(12:27):
He says my word is my bond andJack says it's a junk bond.
Peter says stop acting like achild and grow up.
And Jack is like I am a child.
And Charlie Corsmo is just socharming in this role.
They talk about Granny Wendy.
Is she the real Wendy?
Well, she's sort of the realWendy, but when they get to her
(12:48):
house, tootles, who is one ofthe original Lost Boys, is there
and he's her kind of butler.
He's lost his marbles, so he'sa kind of flighty kind of guy.
And then the Wendy lady comesdown the stairs and she says
hello boy.
And he says hello Wendy lady.
(13:09):
And Jen Book Hasselsworth criesevery time, because that is
also how they greet each otherin the play and the book.
And it's Maggie Smith.
So she is actually in agemakeup, which is why in my head,
maggie Smith has always beenold.
She's in very subtle age makeup.
(13:31):
It's wonderful it's been 10years between visits.
She insists that the kids donot grow up, while in her house
we learn things about PeterBanning.
Besides that he's afraid offlying.
He always has to have thewindow shut so that nothing can
get in.
When Jack is talking about himbeing a real estate lawyer, he
(13:53):
uses pirate metaphor and imagery.
Wendy is absolutely taken abackthat Peter has become a pirate.
They talk about Peter and Moiraas they're getting ready for
this gala, talk about missingtheir children's childhood and
Moira throws his cell phone outthe window where it is promptly
mouthed by their dog and buriedin a hole.
(14:18):
As Peter is giving a keynotespeech at Wendy's benefit, at
the hospital where Wendy foundhomes for Peter and lots of
other orphans, captain Hookcomes and kidnaps the children
and takes them to Neverland.
We don't know that that'swhat's happening in that scene.
We know that that's what hashappened after they get home and
(14:39):
they see, you know, scratchesfrom a hook going up the wall.
Hook left a note for Petertelling him to come to Neverland
to save his children.
Tootles does a cryptic rhymeabout Hook being back, which
100% would have been a song andWendy tells Peter that he is
(15:00):
Peter Pan and reveals it to himfor the first time.
He refuses to believe it.
He gets drunk and drinks somesipping whiskey or some other
dark liquor and hallucinates.
He thinks that a ball of lighthas come to find him and she is
(15:20):
Tinkerbell the fairy.
She's real.
After he passes out from beingsuper drunk, she wraps him up
and flies him to Neverland,second star to right and
straight on till morning.
The visual is absolutely lovelyof Neverland.
This is 35 minutes into themovie, one thing that I do.
(15:42):
Yeah.
I love that it's a real.
This movie is over two hourslong.
I still love this movie.
There is a lot that could havebeen cut out like a lot, but one
thing that I found reallycharming, as Emily was talking
about cameos in the movie asthey fly over Neverland or over
(16:03):
London they're kind of drippingpixie dust and we all know that
happy thoughts and pixie dustare what make people fly.
And so there's a couple that'skissing on Tower Bridge and they
start to levitate, and thatcouple you can't see their faces
but it's George Lucas andCarrie Fisher are the kissing
couple.
I love that, which is, yeah,it's really, really lovely.
(16:26):
So we finally get to Neverland.
Peter wakes up in like pirateland.
They try to steal his shoes.
It's a whole like fish out ofwater scenario.
There's a whole lot of yada,yada, yada.
And then we find Smee, who'splayed by Bob Hoskins, who I at
the time did not know wasactually British because I knew
(16:48):
him with the Eddie Valiantaccent from who Framed Roger
Rabbit, and they do a bigprocession where they have
Hook's hook on a velvet pillowto present it to the captain.
Smee does a good morningNeverland announcement as he
(17:09):
hypes up and does a comedianintroduction to Captain Hook.
Captain Hook is Dustin Hoffmanin his campy, campy best.
It's amazing.
He notes that someone does notbelong.
He notes that someone does notbelong and you know, you think
it's Peter, but it turns out tobe another cameo, which is Glenn
(17:29):
Close in pirate attire.
They put him in the boo box,which is a treasure chest into
which they drop scorpions whilethey say boo.
The other two cameos in thisscene as pirates are David
Crosby and Jimmy Buffett, whichis really very appropriate.
There's a lot of yada, yada,yada as we introduce.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Another opportunity for a song there 100%.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Yes.
They display Peter's kids in anet that's risen above the mast
of the ship.
He reveals himself because he'slike give me back my kids.
He can't fly and they can'tbelieve that he's an adult and
can't fly.
He can't fly and they can'tbelieve that he's an adult and
can't fly.
There's some great puns in thispart where he tries to like
(18:18):
climb up the mast and he's likesomebody give me a hand.
And Hook's like I already did,he can't reach his kids.
Tink talks them into notkilling Peter and the kids Give
us two days More.
Yada, yada, yada.
He gets knocked overboard,kissed by some mermaids who give
him breath power, I don't knowunderwater, and then he wakes up
(18:40):
in the Lost Boys treehousewhere we meet Rufio, who is the
new leader of the Lost Boys,played by the wonderful Dante
Bosco, who more modern audiencesmight know as the voice of Zuko
in the Avatar and Korra series.
(19:01):
They do what I noted as a tourof ridiculousness.
As he runs through the LostBoys land and finds that it has
been completely 90s-ed up withskateboard half pipes and
one-on-one basketball with coolflips.
There is a very weirdcould-have-been-really-edited
(19:23):
scene where Captain Hook isabout to unalive himself and
he's like don't stop me, Smee,don't stop me.
And Smee is like, oh good, notagain.
And then he's like stop me,smee, stop me, I'm actually
going to do it this time, stopme.
And Smee stops him.
Comes up with the plan thatCaptain Hook should get Peter's
(19:43):
kids to love him instead ofPeter, and that's what would
really kill him if Peter's kidslove him.
We have a training montage ofPeter losing weight to fight
with Hook.
There's a lot of body shaminghere, even though one of the
(20:05):
really prominent Lost Boys is abigger kid and of course his
name is Thud Butt.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
And he's got two days to train, right?
I mean it's.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
He's got two days to train and they're all like lose
that weight, you're real fat andit's like I don't think that
that like teach him how to holda sword maybe is what he needs.
Speaker 3 (20:26):
Not helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Also could have been a song.
They sit down to dinner.
Everybody say grace and theyall go grace while Peter's like,
oh, thank you Lord.
Then the kids do amazing spacework while they eat invisible
foods.
Peter is real hungry, he can'tdo it.
He and Rufio insult each otherback and forth and through
(20:50):
becoming Robin Williams, he alsobecomes the pan and is able to
use his imagination by you know,freestyle, you, rude, bag, food
, dude or something like that.
The kids say you're doing it,you're using your imagination,
you're playing with us, peter.
And all of a sudden Peter cansee the food in front of him.
(21:12):
It's a feast.
They have a big food fight,like Emily said, with the
food-colored whipped cream.
It's really, really lovely.
But he still can't fly yetbecause he hasn't found his
happy thought.
Maggie, peter's daughter, stillhates Captain Hook because she
wants her mommy.
But Jack learns to become apirate and starts forgetting
(21:34):
about home.
So we see him smashing thewatch that Peter gave him.
At the beginning of the moviewe see him dressing up as
Captain Hook wearing the Regencywig, and Hook says you know
your dad couldn't save you wig.
(21:57):
And Hook says you know your dadcouldn't save you and Jack says
he wouldn't save us.
He could have tried, but hedidn't.
So Jack chooses to become apirate and Hook supports him
playing baseball.
They make two baseball teams,both called the Pirates.
They have a whole baseball gameand they cheer for Jack and
they're there for him in a waythat Peter wouldn't be there for
(22:20):
him because he was an absent90s dad.
They have a big baseball scenewhere the Lost Boys are, you
know three kids in trench coatspiled on top of each other,
three kids in trench coats piledon top of each other, disguised
as pirates.
They cheer for Jack.
The pirates are saying run homeJack, run home Jack.
(22:40):
And Jack is like wait, what'sthis home you're talking about
that I should run to?
And they're like wait, we'vegot it backwards.
Home run Jack, home run Jack.
And Jack's like, oh okay, I gotto hit a home run Jack.
Home run Jack.
And Jack's like, oh okay, I gotto hit a home run More.
Yada, yada, yada-ing.
(23:02):
Peter finds his old tree housewhere he lived with Wendy.
He starts to remember oh,because he got knocked on the
head by Jack's home run ball.
He sees his own childhoodreflection in the mirror or in
the lake.
His shadow starts doing funnythings and he finds that his
happy thought is his children,which is really, really awesome.
They find you are the pan hetalks through the entire preface
(23:25):
and beginning of the Peter Panstory that we know.
And then Tink's feelings are sobig, they're too big for her
body and she becomes full-sizeJulia Roberts for the first time
and only time in the wholemovie, because her feelings are
so big they couldn't becontained in her little body.
And she professes her love toPeter and kisses him and he says
(23:49):
Moira, I gotta get back home toMoira, I gotta save my kids and
get back home to them.
And I got to save my kids andget back home to them.
And her heart is broken.
But she understands.
They all suit up to battle thepirates.
They go and battle the pirates,they win.
Thudbutt helps them win bybecoming a ball and rolling down
(24:11):
the stairs.
His weight is the perfect thingBody neutrality, his body works
to help them seize the day.
It's not Newsies, this one'sactually not a musical.
Hook asks how did you evermanage to fit into those
smashing tights again, peter?
Peter and Hook do the same backand forth that they do in the
(24:31):
original Insolent youth.
Prepare to meet thy doom, darkand sinister man have at thee.
It is unclear to me whetherCaptain Hook knows that he's
quoting something that he said30 years before.
They win the battle, but notuntil after Hook runs Rufio
(24:52):
through with a sword and he isno longer no longer alive.
Until after Hook runs Rufiothrough with a sword and he is
no longer alive.
Hook does some bad form tricksto Peter, but ultimately Peter
winds up asking him or makinghim yield.
Hook does wind up disappearingin a very weird way, which is
(25:13):
that potentially the crocodilewho originally ate his hand and
he had taxidermied and stuffedin the middle of Neverland,
might have come to life andeaten him.
It's very unclear and weird.
But he's not there anymore andso he has Tink, sprinkle the
kids with the pixie dust andthey fly home.
(25:35):
Peter names Thudbutt the newleader of the Lost Boys.
Now that he's going home andRufio's not around anymore, he
says I want you to take care ofeveryone who's smaller than you.
The smallest one says then whodo I look after?
And Peter says never bugs,little ones.
They fly home.
Moira wakes up and her kids arethere and Smee is a street
(26:00):
sweeper.
So it's unclear about whetherto him.
You know whether it's all beena dream, but the kids remember
it as well.
Now they need to leave thewindow open always, instead of
having it closed.
He kisses Moira, which issomething that he'd not done
previously in the movie.
(26:22):
Apparently, neverland ismarriage counseling.
He had dug up his phone fromwhere Nana had buried it, but
now he throws it out the windowagain.
Where Nana had buried it.
But now he throws it out thewindow again.
And Thudbutt had given PeterTootles marbles which he had
left behind in Neverland.
So he gives Tootles back hismarbles which he didn't lose
(26:44):
after all, and they were hishappy thought and he goes flying
away through London.
And it ends with another famousline from Peter Pan Someone
says so, peter, your adventuresare over.
And he says no to live.
To live will be an awfully bigadventure.
End of movie.
That was more of a synopsis,but see, it could have been
(27:07):
edited.
So much, there's so much inthis movie.
It hard to be concise, it reallyis I didn't even like there's
so much, I didn't go over sowhere would you like to start in
the analysis?
so I think, just because I'vebeen thinking about what does it
(27:32):
mean to be an adult versus whatdoes it mean to be a child?
And so Peter had been.
He's forgotten everything upuntil Wendy, until he moved to
moved, he picked up two guys ina truck, moved to London from
(27:54):
Neverland, but he doesn'tremember anything prior to being
12 or 13 years old when hefirst sees Moira in the house
where he left Wendy and Wendy isnow an older woman and she
finds him a home.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore that, so he doesn't
remember Neverland.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore that, so he doesn't
(28:14):
remember Neverland.
He doesn't remember anythingbefore Neverland, so he doesn't
remember being a child.
And his whole thing with hischildren is grow up, stop being
a child and he doesn't know howhe can incorporate these
childish things or childlikethings into being an adult.
(28:39):
And even when he remembers thathe's Peter Pan, he is purely
child for a moment, until heremembers Moira, until he
remembers that he's a father andthen he's able to put those two
parts of himself back togetherand I think the idea of being
(29:00):
there, like just rememberingwhat it was like to be a child,
leads to that 90s absent dadtrope of being an adult is the
only important thing, and hedoesn't have anything.
Like you know, I need to putfood on the table or I need to
(29:21):
like.
This is what I need to do withthe money.
It's just.
Dad is a grownup and he can'trelate to us.
Being an adult is the mostimportant thing you can be.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Yeah, just to build on that.
I feel like that's reallyinteresting, just in part just
because of why JM Barrie wrotethis, because he had a brother
who died and so who never grewup and so like would forever be
young, would forever be PeterPan, and so Peter Banning is the
(29:55):
opposite, is forever an adult.
You know, had never, like neverexperienced childhood.
I'm thinking about before my daddied.
There was a point where he saidhe had forgotten what it was
like to be a child, like he hadgotten to an age where he'd
forgotten what it was like to bea child, and I wish I could
remember when he said that to me, whether it was before or after
I'd had kids, because heabsolutely adored being a
(30:18):
grandfather.
But I also, like he reallyliked babies, like I'm not sure
how he would feel about, likeyou know, elementary school kids
and like once they've got amind of their own Right.
But that's really interestingand that's something that we've
(30:38):
talked about a little bit beforein previous episodes, like in
Big, where as adults, we forgetwhat it's like to stay connected
to that childlike wonder thatis such an important part of
humanity that we lose in the.
Being an adult is the mostimportant thing.
Like that we think, like I gotto do the spreadsheets, but then
(30:58):
we also, you know, if yourefuse to accept any
responsibility, then you like,you know the overcompensating
and then, but then there's thelike, the overlap, where, like
with peter, here he's, he islike taking, he's saying like a
responsibility so important andthen he's missing the
responsibility of being a fatherby completely missing his son's
(31:20):
baseball games, which is somuch more important than
whatever he's doing with thesereal estate mergers or whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Absolutely and I think about like I'm really
fortunate in my work that I doLike my work is playing and my
school, where I work, isinspired by Montessori and
Reggio Emilia work and MariaMontessori famously said play is
the work of children and so Iget to sit on the floor and I
(31:48):
get to make things with pom-pomsand things like that as an arts
integration specialist and Ithink part of what separates
being a normal adult because I'mnot a normal adult I think part
of what separates being anormal adult from being a child
is the curiosity about the worldand that's what leads to play.
(32:13):
So in my research for my thesis,part of my thesis is that
Neverland is a game of piratesand Indians and that everyone,
all the children, are repeatingwhat they've heard.
And Indians is JM Barrie'slanguage, and so everyone is
repeating what they've heardtheir parents say about these
(32:35):
different kinds of people.
And it actually isn't until Ijust said that just now that I
didn't realize that the Indiansare not in this movie at all.
Had not noticed that till rightthis very moment.
But yeah, it's that wonder,it's that play, it's that if
anything in the world could beon this table, what would I have
(32:56):
it be, you know.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I was also thinking about Big, so I was glad that
you mentioned it because it alsohas been coming up for me and
thinking about Wonder, but alsoactually SpongeBob, like when we
talked about SpongeBob and likewhen you were talking about
Imagination 10 and when youfinally saw it and I thought
about that meme you know, likeimagination with the rainbow.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
I gotta tell you real quick that one of my that's one
of the things that I do withthe kiddos is we talk about the
tools that we have in ourtoolbox as artists and I say you
make your fists, you cross themat the wrists, you pop out your
sparkle fingers and you make arainbow above your head like
SpongeBob, and that is.
I gotta say that at thebeginning of every school year.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
That's fantastic.
That's fantastic.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, that's fantastic.
That's fantastic, that's alsowell so.
I've I've had a recent likephilosophical conversation with
my 14 year old.
He's a writer too and like, ohmy God, this, this kid is, is
like a copy of me in so manyways.
And I'd recently told him, likeyou know, before you have kids,
one of the things they tell youis that the hardest thing of
parenting is your kids make thesame mistakes you did and you
can't, like you see it comingand you can't stop them from
(34:03):
making those mistakes.
And before I had kids, I waslike what?
I don't know what mistakes mykids will make.
And then I had him and I toldhim that, because he is getting
himself twisted in knots aboutlike I'm not productive enough
with my writing, I'm not doingenough with my writing, what if
I never get published?
What if this then that happens,which is exactly the same crap
that I put myself through andlike 30, 40 years of like
(34:25):
overthinking my writing and likesqueezing all the joy out of it
.
And I've told him that and I'mlike, please don't do this to
yourself.
But it's the same sort of thingwhere it's the adult pressure on
the childlike wonder, adultpressure on the childlike wonder
.
Like, because it's the joy andthe just, the imagination and
(34:47):
interest that is innately in mefrom being a small child making
up stories.
But then there's the adultpressure of like, but I got to
do something with this that likesqueezes all of the air out of
it, and so, you know, I ended uphaving writer's block for six
years and so, like, that's kindof what this story is.
(35:07):
There's a bit of a meditationon that, which is why it's, I
think, a really interestingadaptation of this beloved story
.
Because, like, what if PeterPan grew up?
There's a really interestingquestion there Like, what would
happen to this like incrediblyfree character if he had to go
through the pressures ofadulthood?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Hook has Maggie and Jack in pirate school and their
topic for the day is why parentshate their children and they
talk about the reason yourparents read you bedtime stories
is that they want you to go tosleep so they can be by
themselves.
And they were free before you,free before you, and now they
(36:08):
can't be that anymore.
And Maggie says no, mommy readsus stories because she loves us
.
And Hook gives her an F and shefreaks out because she's seven
years old and she's never gottenan F.
She's like an F, and I see thatvery much coming from Peter.
But that's such an amazingstatement of no, even like yes,
it's true that your parents werefree before they had you, but
(36:30):
they love you and they read youstories and they don't just want
to get rid of you for the day,you know, and I think that's
such a great statement.
But also this statement ismommy reads us stories because
she loves us.
And then Jack is confrontedwith Well, Dad doesn't.
This movie, I'm relativelycertain, does not pass the
(36:54):
Bechdel test, but it does havestrong-named female characters
who have backstories and whohave personalities of their own
and are not necessarily justthere to serve the story, and
Maggie is a character that I'mreally glad my daughter can see
(37:16):
specifically.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Jen, I want to take us to a slightly different place
.
I want to ask you about this.
Emily named that.
Barry wrote this because of hisdeceased brother, who can never
grow up, and I'm feeling atension that I'd love to hear
you talk about a little bit more.
Like Neverland is a game ofpirates and Indians and so it's
just happening all the time.
It's basically imagination, butalso maybe Neverland is death
(37:40):
because Barry's brother is there.
Also, maybe Neverland is deathbecause Barry's brother is there
, but also Neverland is wherethis distracted dad who's
forgotten what actually matters,where he goes to find his
wonder Like all three feel likethey're true in Hook and maybe
in the Peter Pan original, andI'd love to hear you like kind
of unpack that a little bit andalso like how those things
(38:03):
interact with one another, likehow all three of those things
are true and maybe others that Ihaven't thought of.
Like what is neverland?
Speaker 1 (38:11):
that is such a great question and I love it so much.
So one thing that's I'm not ahundred percent sure.
And stop, I'm not not 100% sure.
When Tinkerbell is taking Peterin Hook back to Neverland, he
says I see a bright light andI'm moving towards the light.
(38:33):
And that's really the onlyinkling that we get in this
particular narrative, thatNeverland might be death.
I mean, of course he's talkingabout he's drunk, he's talking
about the light of Tinkerbellherself.
But I was also thinking whilewatching the movie this Go Round
.
You know how, like wheneverpeople are haunted or whenever
(38:55):
people think they see ghosts,they think they see little
Victorian children.
And that's what Peter Pan isright, little Victorian children
and Edwardian.
But in Hook you've also got thekids from the 90s, the 1990s,
well, I guess the 80s.
And I had been thinkingrecently anyway, because my
(39:17):
house was built in 1999, that ifthere was a ghost in my house,
that ghost would be from the2000s.
And you don't ever see ghostsfrom the 2000s, you don't ever
see ghosts from the 90s.
There's no like ghostswandering around in flannels and
a Nirvana shirt, right?
So we do have, except in thevery first season of American
(39:37):
Horror Story spoilers, and so wedo have.
If Neverland is death, thesekids who have come after Peter
left, who he didn't know.
There are still some of theoriginal Lost Boys, there are
the twins, they're still there,tootles left, but there are lots
of kids that Peter didn't know,like Rufio, and those are the
(40:01):
ghosts of the 90s.
Those are the children whofound Neverland in the 80s and
90s and that's why Neverland isdifferent than it was.
Since Peter was there.
Neverland.
There's a thought that thereason a lot of people have very
(40:22):
few people have written abouthook, lots of people have
written about peter pan, and sothere's a school of thought that
the reason that kiddos do growup in neverland but peter either
kicks them out and they becomepirates and that's where pirates
come from or p Peter kills themonce they start getting older.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Well, that's dark yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Wow, peter's not in the classic story, right?
If we look at it from an adultperspective, captain Hook has
gotten lost.
He's a cavalier, king CharlesII cavalier.
That's why he looks like hedoes with the big wig and the
(41:09):
big coat Also drag queen.
But they wouldn't let me writeabout that for my thesis, so
we're going to put that aside.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Damn shame, because I would read that.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
He's a panto dame in the Victorian panto tradition.
Anyway, I'll write that someday.
So he and his crew get lostsomehow in Neverland, or maybe
they died and were taken toNeverland somehow.
Here's this bratty 11-year-oldkid who's like okay, you're my
(41:41):
enemy.
Now when we play pirates, Ihave to fight the pirates
because that's my game.
They become mortal enemies.
The kid chops off his hand,throws it into the ocean or the
lagoon where it's eaten by acrocodile who then has a taste
for human flesh and comes afterHook for the rest of his life,
and so Hook is fighting for hislife because this 11-year-old
(42:04):
can't leave him alone.
So I mean, that's Peter Panfrom an adult perspective, right
, and so Peter's not a great guy.
A very important part of hisnarrative in the original story
is that Peter forgets, and sothat's completely in character
for him and Hook.
When Peter comes to visit Wendydecades in the future, tink has
(42:31):
died because fairies don't havelong lives.
Wendy asks about her and Petersays who's Tink?
He forgets, and he comes to seeWendy less and less and less
frequently, and that is what wesee in Hook, but he forgets, and
so I'm not sure whether that'sthe dead forget about the living
(42:57):
or kids have short memories,but there's something there.
I don't know if that answersyour question.
I don't know if there is ananswer to that question, yeah
that's fair.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
I wonder too if the forgetting is almost necessary
to avoid growing up.
Yeah, right, yeah, I feel likepart of the thesis of this and
Big and SpongeBob is that beingan adult is not actually about
the responsibility, the sort ofthe negative piece of adulthood
is just sort of the cumulativeeffect of like forgetting what
(43:30):
matters.
But in order to, perhaps inorder to stay perpetually
childlike, one has to forgetthings especially difficult,
things like Tinkerbell's death.
To forget things especiallydifficult, things like
Tinkerbell's death, right, likeremembering your best friend's
death, is going to take awaysome of your childlike wonder.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
It's going to adultify you in some way.
And from there, something thatI think is really interesting is
it's not a coincidence thatMichael Jackson called his home
Neverland Ranch, and he reallyidentified with Peter Pan as
well.
And I recently heard anotherwriter say that writers tend to
continually write about whereverthey got stuck in childhood.
(44:14):
And apparently Stephen King sawa friend get in a horrible
accident when he was very, verysmall and that's why he writes
horror.
And you know, clearly, michaelJackson was horribly abused as a
child, which is why he gotstuck in this, whatever this
childlike place he was, becauseNeverland does not seem like
(44:36):
something that you would want toaspire to and Peter Pan does
not seem like something youwould want to aspire to, because
that is not growth.
Childlike wonder is somethingthat you want to include into
your growth but not have at theexpense of remembering Tink,
(45:01):
remembering your best friend.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and so solike I just I think that it's
really fascinating that it'slike the people who watch Fight
Club without recognizing, like,what it's about, like watch it
on, like without unironically,like I want to start a Fight
Club, it's like no, no, no, youdidn't get the movie, and not
(45:21):
that I, like I have a lot ofsympathy for, like the horrible
abuse that Jackson went through,and yearning for a place where
you can feel you can have thechildhood you never had, but not
recognizing that that is notsomething to want to live in you
know Nice place to visit.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah, yeah.
Something that's reallyinteresting too about that is
that one of the things aboutbeing a child is that you don't
form adult relationships orrelationships in the way that
adults do.
And Tinkerbell in the originalis very much in love with Peter.
Her body's too small to holdmore than one emotion at a time.
(46:02):
That's in there in the original.
And Wendy also loves Peterbecause she is a girl on the
precipice of becoming a woman,and so she understands what
adult relationships are.
And the first time they meet shewants to give him a kiss and he
holds his hand out because hethinks she's going to give him
something, and so she gives hima thimble.
(46:22):
The acorn that he gives her inreturn winds up saving her life
when Tink tries to have the LostBoys murder her, because you
know, rivals and girls can't befriends with each other in
popular culture.
But you know, wendy loves Peter, tink loves Peter.
Peter doesn't form adultrelationships, and there is a
(46:45):
thought that JM Berry did nothave inappropriate relationships
with the boys to whom hededicated Peter Pan, and he also
did not have an inappropriaterelationship with their mother,
who was married.
Berry was married, but there isa real serious thought that he
might have been asexual andcould not or did not form, and
(47:08):
maybe aromantic as well, did notor could not form those
relationships with people in theway that a Victorian and
Edwardian society would haveexpected one.
Speaker 2 (47:21):
I feel like there's two things that you said in
advance that I want to just likelift up.
And if you have any additionalcomment, because I want to make
sure that our listeners hearthis One is I'll just name it
because you started to say itbut there's something really
fascinating about the idea thatthe play somehow exists in the
world of Hook, and so we have,like, when you said, it's
(47:44):
unclear whether or not Hookrealizes he's saying something
that he said 30 years ago orwhatever I think the cosmology
of that world that's created bythat literature that is also the
literature is really reallyinteresting to me.
So I just wanted to lift thatup a little bit more explicitly.
And then the other thing thatyou said that we haven't
actually touched on is the waysin which this film, this
adaptation, is a love letter toPeter Pan, and so if you wanted
(48:07):
to say a few words about thatbefore we wrap up, I wanted to
give you the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
Yeah, I think it's really Spielberg and the
screenwriters just obviouslyknow the source material so so
well, and I think that the LostBoys Treehouse in particular is
exactly how I would havepictured it, and it's so full of
childlike wonder.
At one point, when they'resaying goodnight to each other,
(48:34):
one of them blows a raspberry toblow out his nightlight, which
is just so lovely.
I think that having so manyquotes in there from Peter Pan
and even referencing the GreatOrmond Street Hospital, which is
where all of the royalties fromPeter Pan go in perpetuity, as
(48:56):
willed by JM Barrie, and iswhere Wendy is getting honored
in this movie Knowing that Wendyname-checking JM Barry but
saying that she and her brotherswould tell these stories to
each other and Mr Barry wrotethem down even nods to the
history of the story itselfrather than just quoting it.
(49:20):
And I love to, because I am aperson who, in my criticism and
I do have a degree in theater,history and criticism, but I
recognize that criticism doesn'thave to be negative as you do
when you, with this podcast, puta critical eye on things, but
that doesn't mean being negativeor nasty about them.
I don't find it pleasurable totalk in a negative way about
(49:44):
these things, and watching Hookas an adaptation, as well as a
sequel, in such a loving way issuch an absolute pleasure.
Absolute pleasure.
They don't cast a negative 90sGen X eye on the original
(50:06):
property.
It's very earnest.
Could have been edited a lotmore, but incredibly earnest and
loving.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
And it's such a pleasure to watch.
Thank you, okay, let me see ifI can reflect back what I heard.
So that was a beautiful placeto land, so we spent a lot of
time talking about.
I think the biggest bucket iswhat does it mean to be an adult
and what does it mean to be achild, and I think there's a lot
there to think about.
There's priorities and wonderand imagination and play, and
you brought in Maria Montessoriin thinking about that in terms
(50:47):
of, you know, play being thework of being a child and sort
of the focus on work and focuson being an adult being the most
important thing was thehypothesis that is being
countered by this movie,hypothesis that is being
countered by this movie and thatintersects in interesting ways
(51:08):
by the mechanism of Neverland.
I think.
I think there's somethingreally interesting there that,
when we take the broaderproperty not just Hook, but the
broader property of the PeterPan kind of mythos that has been
created in the wake of the playand all of the various
adaptations, that has beencreated in the wake of the play
and all of the variousadaptations, where Neverland is
the place where our Peter, asRobin Williams, goes to remind
(51:29):
himself of wonder, but it isalso maybe death, and it is also
a place where, if you don'tforget the things that matter,
you have to leave or maybe dieor maybe become a pirate, so
like it's not unqualified, it isnot uncomplicated, and I think
that's really interesting andreally important and probably
(51:51):
why all of these years thisproperty continues to be so
animating for you.
Also, you talked about this assort of the when we meet him,
peter banning, as thequintessential distracted 90s
dad who we all had a good timeshitting on then I mean, there's
so many examples of thatcharacter, so I think that's
sort of interesting as like atime capsule from the 90s.
(52:14):
That's sort of interesting.
And then just very quicklyprobably doesn't pass bechdel
but does give some really strongand fully fleshed out and
interesting female characterswith voices, including young
Maggie, who I think it's reallypoignant and sweet that you
named.
You're glad that your daughter,who I just had the opportunity
(52:34):
to meet virtually and is threeand a half, and you're glad that
she has Maggie as a potentialrole model.
So that's pretty great.
And then I relifted up, whichyou sort of said in passing, the
fact that there's thisinteresting cosmology of this
literature that exists in theworld of itself but also
references it but also is anadaptation of it, like all of
(52:57):
those self-referential pointswhich make it ultimately a love
letter to the original Barry,which is really really lovely,
and I think also like allows youwhere you just landed, that we
can have a critical eye and sortof see all of these things and
all of this furniture of themind that this has continued to
impart about childhood andadulthood and about rivalries
(53:20):
between women, which you justsaid in passing, but I think
it's worth like renaming.
And about like what does itmean to have adult relationships
?
Like when we're talking aboutromance and sex and the fact
that in the original sourcematerial, wendy wants to give
him a kiss and so he puts outhis hand, and like what does
that have to say about adulthood?
Like there's so much in there.
This is really really deep.
(53:40):
I feel like we could have gone.
We're going over time, but wecould have gone a lot, lot
longer.
What did I miss from ourconversation?
In my attempt to share thehighlights, I think I did it.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
There could have been a lot more music.
Speaker 2 (53:52):
Oh yes, actually, that actually is an important
highlight.
I think from this is what Ilearned from Jen.
This movie could have been alot shorter and it could have
had music from Jen.
Speaker 1 (54:01):
This movie could have been a lot shorter and it could
have had music.
The only song is sung by Maggieoh yes, I remember that.
That's the one song and itreverberates all through
Neverland.
You can hear it from everywhere.
Speaker 2 (54:13):
Yeah Well, Jen, it was wonderful to see you again.
It's been a pleasure.
I used to babysit for Jen andher brother when we were kids.
So this is like old home weekfor reals.
This is so awesome.
Thank you so much.
It was really, really great tohave you on the show.
(54:34):
Is there a?
Speaker 1 (54:35):
way to get in touch with you.
If folks want to socials, I amon Instagram at sunbonnet
underscore sue, underscore isunderscore tired.
Speaker 2 (54:45):
Sunbonnet Sue is tired.
We will link to it in the shownotes.
Thank you so much, and nextweek it is my turn.
I will be bringing my deepthoughts about the Disney
animated film, the Sword in theStone Very, very cool.
Until then, all right.
Until then, this show is alabor of love, but that doesn't
(55:07):
make it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us and, of
course, share the show with orleave a positive review so
others can find us and, ofcourse, share the show with your
people.
Thanks for listening.
(55:27):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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