Does anybody here know how many times I had to watch Funny Lady?
The 1997 film In & Out, directed by Frank Oz (yes, the one who voices Miss Piggy) and starring Kevin Kline, Joan Cusack, and Tom Selleck, has mostly been forgotten–but this feel-good comedy had a lasting impact on Emily. When she saw it in the theater as an undiagnosed neurodivergent 18-year-old, she was confused as all hell when Kline’s character comes out at his wedding (to a woman) about three-quarters of the way into the movie, despite his protestations of heterosexuality up until that point.
Baby Emily understood something that may have been unclear to the intended audience: that the stereotypical characteristics of “masculinity” have approximately jack-all to do with sexual orientation. Although Oz created a lovely story about acceptance (and one that was likely an important stepping stone for straight Americans to embrace LGBTQ rights), the reliance on stereotypes for humor makes the movie a cringey, if well-meaning, time capsule.
Throw on your headphones and take a listen–and don’t compliment the fabulous window treatment.
Mentioned in this episode:
“In & Out” Is a Great Gay Movie and Deserves as Much Love as “The Birdcage”
Classic Film Review: “In & Out” turns 25, old enough to be a “classic”
Tango Men, Choreography by Ezequiel Sanucci
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
And Howard says to him do I look like a homosexual
to you?
And Bob Newhart says I don'tknow.
Stand up and walk for me.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oy, yi, yi, what a horrible, like ugh.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:32):
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 Kevin Kline film In andOut with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in.
So, tracy, I have no idea ifyou've seen this film, if you
(01:01):
remember this film or anything.
It's kind of one of those likeforgettable 90s films, but it
made a big impression on me.
So tell me what you know aboutthis film, if anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I don't know if I've seen it or not.
What is in my head about it isKevin Kline, which you already
said is gay and closeted, andsomeone outs him, someone else
outs him and then, or maybe he'seven closeted to himself
somehow.
Yeah, that's it.
That's all I got Kevin Klinecloseted, outed by someone else.
(01:33):
That's all I got.
But you just named it asforgettable but making an
impression on you.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we a few weeks ago we talked about Chasing Amy,
which also came out, I believe,in 1997.
And this film was the secondone of that year and I couldn't
remember which one I saw first.
I saw both of them in thetheater where someone makes a
(02:01):
statement about their sexualityand I went wait what?
That's not what I thought washappening.
In Chasing Amy, alyssa, playedby Joey Lauren Adams, makes it
very clear that she is gay, sheis a lesbian, she's not
interested in men, and then shekisses Ben Affleck.
And in this film, kevin Klinespends probably the first three
(02:23):
quarters of the film tellingeveryone I'm not gay.
I don't know why he said thatuntil at his wedding to a woman,
instead of saying I do, he saysI'm gay.
And I remember being in thetheater going like what movie am
(02:43):
I watching?
For me, revisiting this film wasa little bit about going back
into undiagnosed neurodivergenceas a teenager, because I think
that both of these films give mea really clear-eyed view of
things that in retrospect areobvious about my understanding
of subtext understanding ofsubtext.
(03:11):
But it's also a veryinteresting time capsule of
greater acceptance and awarenessof homosexuality in American
media.
But at the same time it'sreally relying on some very ugly
stereotypes.
So there's a very sweet heartunderneath of this film.
But it's also like I waswatching it and my son came in.
(03:31):
I was like I really don't wantyou watching this film.
Not that like there's anything.
He was saying like, oh, is itnot appropriate?
I was like no, I need to talkto you about pretty much every
single thing that happens inthis film and I don't have the
time for it right now.
So it's not that it'sinappropriate, it's that it's
really outdated.
All of those are part of it.
And then I did not know thestory behind why this film came
(03:54):
to be, nor did I realize that itwas directed by Frank Oz, Miss
Piggy.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Wait what.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Miss Piggy directed this film.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Weird.
I know, is Oz gay.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
No, paul Rudnick, who wrote the screenplay, is Okay.
You know basically what I wantto bring to discussing this very
weird film that does not havestaying power but that I think
was in a lot of ways veryinfluential because of the type
(04:33):
of gay story it told.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And Klein was already like a well-known, yes, he was
already A-list, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It's full of A-list stars.
So Joan Cusack is in it, debbieReynolds, wilford Brimley, matt
Dillon, and then there were alot of young actors who went on
to have pretty long glowingcareers, who were in their early
20s or even late teens, becauseKlein's character plays a
schoolteacher, so it's hisstudents Bob Newhart's in it as
(05:01):
well.
Oh yeah, it's quite a list.
Oh, and Tom Selleck, oh yes.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Is he the love interest?
He's not, not the love interest.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, I'll kind of give you a little like the
background of the film and thenthe plot of the film before we
kind of jump into the analysis.
Okay, so this I was completelyunaware of until yesterday.
Background the reason why thisfilm was written was because
when Tom Hanks won the Oscar forPhiladelphia, he thanked two
(05:41):
people from his past, a teacherand a fellow student that he
went to, I think, high schoolwith, who were gay, and he named
the teacher and he said two ofthe finest gay Americans I have
ever known, or something alongthose lines, and said like this
is for them, this Oscar is forthem.
And I will have to look it up.
(06:01):
I don't know if it was Frank Ozwho saw that, but someone was
like wouldn't it be interestingif someone did that?
And it wasn't the person.
They said you know, like thisgay person who influenced me
wasn't out of the closet.
So that's where the idea of thestory came from.
And they wanted to make it kindof a farce.
(06:21):
So that's the background.
Wanted to make it kind of afarce, so that's the background.
So the story is set in afictional small town called
Greenleaf, indiana.
I think that it's importantthat it's set in Indiana.
That's not something Iremembered but that was like an
important aspect of it,considering this is 1997.
1997 was the year that EllenDeGeneres had her character come
(06:44):
out as gay on her sitcom andthen her sitcom was canceled.
So it was very controversial atthe time.
Just talking about the factthat gay people exist was
controversial.
We meet Kevin Kline's HowardBrackett.
He is a high school Englishteacher.
He is engaged to anotherEnglish teacher, miss Emily
Montgomery, who is played byJoan Cusack.
(07:06):
They are getting married at theend of the week.
We meet him talking to hiscurrent class of seniors because
one of his former students hasgone on to become an actor and
is up for the Best Oscar ActorAward for his part in a film
called Protect and Serve about agay soldier in Vietnam.
(07:27):
So we learn that Howard andEmily have been engaged for
three years.
We see everyone gathering inthe town to watch Cameron Drake
is the former student played byMatt Dillon to see if he wins
the Oscar.
He does.
We see a clip of the film whichis ridiculous but also like
horrifying, because he is thecharacter is expelled from the
(07:49):
military dishonorably, gets adishonorable discharge because
he is gay, but their evidence ishe has a signed VHS copy of
Beaches, signed by Bette Midler.
There's more than that, butlike there's a love letter and
then there's something else, andthen like there's the signed
copy of Beaches and like in thecourt, martial trial, he's
(08:10):
whatever you call it.
He says you give that back.
He's like stoic abouteverything else.
She says like I need to acceptthis on behalf of all of the gay
Americans who are not able toserve.
But I also really want to makesure that I talk about someone
who's very influential in mylife.
(08:31):
He taught me Shakespeare, mrHoward Brackett, my high school
English teacher, and he's gay.
And then there's silence allacross Greenleaf, indiana.
So Howard's parents come overto his house.
Howard is there with hisfiancee saying like I don't know
why he said that.
His parents come over and theysay look, you're our son.
(08:51):
We would love you, no matterwho you are, what you are, if
you're gay, straight, if yourobbed a bank, if you killed
someone.
We will always love you.
Except you have to get married.
Because mom needs music,flowers, place cards.
It's like an addiction.
I need the wedding.
We then learn that Emilydoesn't live with Howard because
Howard's parents give her aride home, and then the next day
(09:16):
, the slathering hordes of themedia descend, including Peter
Molloy, who is played by TomSelleck without a mustache.
Wait what?
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That comes off.
No, yeah, okay, rearrange yourmental furniture right now.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Howard is getting hounded by everyone.
His principal asks him toplease talk to the media,
because they're talking toeveryone at the school and the
principal, played by Bob Newhart, is getting some complaints
from parents at the allegationthat Howard is gay.
Media departs, except for PeterMolloy, as played by
(10:18):
mustache-less Tom Selleck,because he is under pressure
from his network and so he wantsto get kind of a deeper story,
more than just like like seteverything up and he's like all
right, what kind of you knowtriple X have you brought me?
And like we have the uncutedition of Funny Girl, because
he really likes Barbra Streisand.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And that's supposed to be code for those of us
watching that he is in fact gay.
I think so, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What the movie does right and is kind of great.
All of these very likeMidwestern guys are saying like
you had that little filmfestival for us, like last year,
and we knew that you lovedBarbara and you know what.
It was actually really fun.
There's a lot of really goodmovies.
Howard is like no, that's notwhat I want, it's my bachelor
(11:01):
party.
And one guy says, oh well, youknow what Gansel kind of sucked.
And Howard's like, oh, how dareyou.
And like the guy says BarbaraStreisand was too old for that
role and they get into a brawl.
No-transcript.
(11:54):
Emily is a little younger thanHoward, actually quite a bit
younger than Howard, and she hadbeen much heavier and she lost
75 pounds.
She had talked earlier aboutdoing Richard Simmons videos.
So when he gets to herapartment she's working out to a
Richard Simmons video and he'slike kind of taking her into bed
.
She's delighted.
But then he looks over and shehad just muted Richard Simmons
(12:18):
so he can see it.
He freaks out, he's like got toturn that off, got to turn that
off.
And so they don't end upconsummating the relationship
and he runs off again and againEmily reassures him like I love
you, I'm not worried about this.
We're getting married.
You know, like this is yourHoward, I'm Emily, we're good,
still freaking out.
He's riding his bike and he goesthrough an intersection and is
(12:39):
nearly run over by Peter Molloy,tom Selleck, who, like, gets
out and is trying to calm himdown.
Molloy tells him like I cameout it was actually, it was
tough, but it was the best thingI ever did.
He says the one line that likeI, that I think held up over the
past 30 years, which is like hesays you know, I told my mom,
(13:02):
my dad, my dog, my boss.
I said Mom, dad, sparky, I'mgay.
Mom cried for about 10 seconds.
My dad said but you're so tall.
And then Peter Molloy kissesHoward.
This is one of the again one ofthe reasons why I'm like a
little uncomfortable with thisfilm.
He kisses him, he says you knowwhat you need, and then he
(13:24):
grabs him and kisses him.
Now, to the film's credit, itis a 12 second full on kiss.
It is played for laughs, but itis also made clear that Howard
is enjoying it, which is grossbecause it's nonconsensual,
right, you know, it's like.
If only that it had been.
(13:45):
Like I'm gonna kiss you.
Tell me if you don't want me tolike if they've done that
anyway, still freaking out.
Howard goes home and he has likethis brown paper package under
his bed.
He takes it out and it's a um,reclaiming your masculinity,
like audio cassette tape thing.
(14:05):
And so he starts playing it andit's like a man talking, saying
, like you know, are you wearingsomething appropriately
masculine?
He's wearing like a plaidbutton down shirt.
Well, untuck it only half of itand like, oh, you hate this,
don't you?
And then it goes through, likeyou know, say things like yo,
and hot damn, what fabulouswindow treatments.
(14:26):
See, that was a trick.
You shouldn't have said it.
So this scene is actually very,very funny and would have held
up if it had not been like soclearly you're gay because of
this.
I took it when I was watchingit as little baby Emily, emily,
as like yeah, there's not anyone way to be a man.
(14:47):
That scene one of the things itsays is like one thing a man
never does is dance.
There is no rhythm, there's nograce, there is no pleasure, and
it starts playing I willsurvive.
And he has this like amazing,like joyful dance around the
room and is again it's just likehow is that about
(15:08):
heterosexuality or homosexuality, or masculinity or femininity?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
like that's a banger like fred astaire and, oh,
mikhail baryshnikov.
I mean like gene, what's?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
his name Gene.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Kelly, yeah Him, yeah , yeah, like what?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I just recently learned that tango was
originally created as a dancebetween two men, because it was
a situation where there weren'tenough female partners.
Huh, I'll include a link in theshow notes.
There is this hot video of twomen doing the tango.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
As in H-A-W-T, hot, hot Anyway.
So real men don't dance, butKevin Kline Howard Kevin Kline's
Howard dances to I Will Survive.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes, his students are freaking out a little bit.
Not freaking out, they'recluelessly talking about it and
like they're saying like I thinkI figured out why he thinks
you're gay, you're a decenthuman being, you're very clean
and neat and tidy Gay.
And it's like and his principalbasically tells him if you
(16:17):
don't get married, you're goingto get fired because parents are
worried.
The principal says to him like,do you enjoy teaching?
And he says no, I don't enjoyteaching, I love it.
This is my life.
And he says well, you need toget married.
Basically he's like is that athreat?
No, it's a warning.
We're friends.
Friends warn each other.
It also had a line.
(16:41):
Bob Newhart, as the principal,had a line that I thought was
hilarious in 1997 and cringedwatching it last night, where
Howard says to him do I looklike a homosexual to you?
And Bob Newhart says I don'tknow.
Stand up and walk for me.
(17:02):
Oy yoy, what a horrible like,like I, I had forgotten about
that line, but seeing it I waslike oh yeah, I remember that
being funny I mean honestly,there's no.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Just the question itself is cringeworthy yes, yes,
in 97, it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
In 97, it wasn't.
And the context of where Howardis that he's being asked that
like.
So the principal is saying tohim like parents are calling
because they're concerned thatyou're a home and Howard goes a
homeroom teacher, he's like andhe finally gets the word out
(17:39):
homosexual and like.
It's forgivable the way that,with the way that everyone is
treating Howard, I did not feeluncomfortable with Howard
responding in that way.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Not that I think that's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But just because he is being pushed into this corner
, yeah, sure, okay.
So Howard's parents invitePeter Malloy to the wedding.
Why they run into them rightafter the kiss?
Oh, so they think they'refriendly.
They think they're friendly.
He's like, oh, any friend ofHoward's, I hope you'll come to
the wedding.
And so at the wedding, emilycomes down the aisle.
(18:12):
They take way too long.
Does anyone know of anyimpediment?
Because it's a movie.
And then starts with do you takethis man to be your husband?
To Emily, she says I do man tobe your husband.
To Emily, she says I do.
Turns to Howard and he says I'mgay.
And then, like, turns aroundand comes out to the entire
congregation at the church.
Emily runs off, he runs afterher and he and this part I
(18:36):
remember is very well is likeI'm a horrible person.
You must hate me.
I insist that you hate me.
I can't believe I've done thisto you.
Something that a commentatorthat I was reading talked about
is the fact that she is notangry at him for being gay.
She's angry at him for histiming.
Because she says to him don'tyou think there could have been
(18:58):
any point in time when you couldhave said this, yeah sure,
prior to now.
And then there is another veryfunny moment.
That again is like, yeah sure.
Does anyone here know how manytimes I have had to watch Funny
Girl?
And then she drops the onlyF-bomb in the movie.
(19:32):
She goes fuck Barbra Streisandand then runs off and drives
away in the just married carwith like the dress hanging out.
So like the physical comedy ishilarious, uh-huh.
(19:59):
He's like I'm trying here, butare you going to have an
operation?
Are you going to be going intoshowbiz?
And Howard's like no, dad, no.
And his dad's like look, I'mjust a farmer, I don't know any
of this.
I really am trying.
I'm really trying, howard.
And then Howard tells hisfather that he was fired.
Right after the not wedding hegot a phone call and his father
(20:23):
says well, graduation's onMonday, I really hope you'll be
there.
He's like I don't work thereanymore.
He's like you taught those kidsall year, you should be at
graduation.
We see Emily show up at a bar,still full bridal regalia.
Peter Malloy is there.
It's not clear, but it soundslike he's been fired as well.
They start talking.
He's very kind to her.
She is like really in and outof good place.
(20:46):
She's like I love you, you'renice, will you sleep with me?
And he's like I'm gay.
And she's like ah, is everyonegay?
The other line that she's likeit's been three years of sunsets
and friendship and loving,loving support.
I am ready.
This is a medical condition.
At this point she runs out andis like is there any
(21:16):
heterosexual men?
This is a red heterosexual, redalert.
And is like in the middle ofthe road and Cameron Drake
almost runs her over and he getsout.
We had learned that she had beena student teacher the year that
he was a senior and that shehad helped him.
She'd done tutoring afterschool for him to help him with
(21:36):
Romeo and Juliet and they quotedit back and forth to each other
.
And Howard is like, oh goodness.
And she's like no, no, it wasfine, I was a student teacher,
he was a student.
I've actually looked it up.
Joan Cusack is two years olderthan Matt Dillon.
She would have been like a20-year-old student teacher with
an 18-year-old high schoolstudent.
And so he, for a second, hedoesn't recognize her.
(21:57):
And then he's like, oh, missMontgomery, and he goes what
happened?
And she goes everythinghappened because of you.
And she's like no, no, no, Idon't mean that, but your body
is so different.
She's like well, I've lost 75pounds.
And he's like well, why wouldyou do that?
You were so beautiful?
He's like I mean you still are.
I mean you're very beautiful,but it's clear that he had a
(22:24):
crush on her even when she wasmuch bigger.
We see Howard's mom talking toseveral of the other old ladies
and they're like you know, whyis this a bad thing?
Let's stop keeping secrets?
And they all start sharingsecrets and laughing.
And then we, at the graduation,which also has the announcement
of Teacher of the Year, adifferent teacher is announced
as Teacher of the Year.
Cameron Drake comes in and sayswasn't Mr Brackett up for that?
(22:45):
And everyone's freaking outbecause he's a movie star.
And he's like well, he's nolonger employed here and so
which is the first, the kids?
Anyone has heard of that.
And so there's some back andforth about how, like members of
the community are uncomfortablewith this that he might
influence.
And Cameron Drake is likeasking the principal questions
in order to like get him toadmit like, yeah, we're afraid
(23:07):
the gay is going to rub off onthe kids.
One student, and it is unclearif it was written that he was
actually gay or if this is justan I Am Spartacus moment.
But he's like well, I've beenhis student all year.
It must have rubbed off on mebecause I'm gay.
And so then the other threestudents who we've seen as like
the closest to Howard alsoannounced that they're gay.
(23:27):
The principal's like well, butit's about members of the
community.
So Howard's brother stands up,says I'm a member of the
community and I don't care.
He's like yes, but you're not aparent.
And so Howard's parents standup and say, like we're parents
and we don't care.
And so then everyone startssaying you know what?
But I'm gay too, and I'm gay.
And so there's this huge I amSpartacus moment, and the
teacher who won Teacher of theYear says yes, but I'm still
(23:48):
Teacher of the Year.
And so Cameron Drake jumps upand says well, he may not get
that award, but I think there'sanother one that he deserves.
And he gives the Oscar that hewon to Howard.
And the film ends with Howard'sparents renewing their vows so
that Howard's mom can have thebeauty and the music and the
(24:09):
place cards and stuff.
And it's this huge dance partywhere everyone is dancing to
Macho man party, where everyoneis dancing to Macho man.
So when I'm talking aboutthings that haven't aged well, I
like starting with what getsright.
So the thing that this filmgets right is the idea of
(24:32):
acceptance.
Everyone in this small townloves Howard.
They all really think he's thegreatest guy ever, and the fact
that he's gay doesn't changethat.
The only person for whom thatchanges things is the principal,
and it's clear he's just aweasel.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So is it?
Is the impression, then, thathe's actually lying when he says
the community doesn't want thegay to rub off on the kids.
It's unclear.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, it's unclear to me and you know this is a.
It's a very sitcom.
Everything's wrapped up in apretty bow For the kind of
Indiana watchers viewers whowere like Wilford Brimley's
(25:21):
character going are you going tohave an operation now?
Who were like I don't know whatany of this means, but also
made it clear that the dad wastrying his best.
He had no idea what the hell hewas talking about.
It doesn't affect how father orson feel about each other.
(25:42):
Yeah, yeah, there wasgentleness to it.
Yes, yeah, it's a gentleridicule, and that I think they
did really well.
The other thing this wassomething that really stuck in
my head.
So it's two boys and two girlswho are like the core students,
who are like big fans ofHoward's in his class, and so
(26:02):
one of the boys is kind of ablowhard, is they're in the
locker room, howard is the trackcoach.
I think they're in the lockerroom, they're talking about it.
They're talking about like theblowhard is saying like there's
two times where it's okay to begay One is in prison, where it's
a substitute, and the other isin space and like he's just it's
ridiculous and he's like well,it's, that's the thing.
(26:22):
Like you know, it's the humanbody.
Human body has in holes and outholes and so you know, gay men,
they put things in the outholes.
And so another kid asks somouth's an in-hole.
It's like, yeah, yeah, you eat,but like when you vomit it
comes out the in-hole and that'swrong.
And that's why, and like thatfelt familiar when I was 18 to
(26:43):
the kind of bullshit that I hearfrom my guy friends.
Yeah, and like I remember and Ithought it was in the movie,
but I kind of appreciate thatthey let the audience do this
itself.
The kid asking like so mouth'san in-hole.
The kid's obviously going likenot everything gay men do is
(27:04):
wrong, right.
So like for a movie that isvery like over the top and
underlining the thesis, yeah,they let the audience be like
this kid's full of shit.
So I thought that was somethingthey did very nicely.
Seeing Howard's comfort withhimself after he comes out is
(27:29):
really well done.
Now, kevin Kline he's aphenomenally talented actor and
hilarious.
He's a very incredible comedian.
So I felt like the way that heshowed like this kind of like
comfort in himself once he'scome out was really well done.
But I got to get to the thingthat little baby Emily was
(27:55):
confused by and adult Emilywatching it last night was also
like, frustrated by.
I could tell, even as an 18 yearold, that the movie wanted me
to make assumptions aboutHoward's sexuality based on
stereotypes.
But for me, I'm watching thisand a third party outs Howard.
That's just wrong.
Outs him to the world, and forme it was just like Mm-hmm Outs
(28:16):
him to the world, and for me itwas just like he hasn't seen
this kid in I don't know 15years.
Cameron Drake is shown to be notthe brightest bulb, mm-hmm, so
like it never occurred to methat he was right about
something that Howard himselfdidn't know or you know.
Like that just seems like sucha betrayal of boundaries.
(28:40):
Not like it would be a betrayalof boundaries if Howard were
gay and closeted and hadactually had a conversation with
Cameron about it.
He's outing him to the entireworld.
That's not okay.
But the fact that Howard iscloseted to the point where he's
getting married to a woman andsomeone else makes this
(29:03):
assumption about him and feelslike they have the right, I
cannot, like.
I have trouble seeing Cameronas a sympathetic character
because of that, even thoughthey very much want him to be a
sympathetic character.
That's part of it, I thought,like the entire movie, until he
(29:25):
says I'm gay.
I thought it was a little bitmore about how masculinity
doesn't have to be any one thing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Right, right, and actually it just reifies the
idea that the fact that he's nothypermasculine, therefore he
must be gay.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, and I've been thinking about it.
One of the things that PeterMalloy says is like because
Howard says I love Emily, Idon't want to hurt her, and
Peter says, well, think abouthow much you'll hurt her if you
go through with this wedding.
Says, well, think about howmuch you'll hurt her if you go
through with this wedding.
So that again Peter assumes heknows who Howard is.
But he does make a good pointthat if you do know this about
(30:06):
yourself, don't do this to her.
But we don't have anyindication that Howard does know
this about himself.
We don't have any indicationwhatsoever.
And the assumption that otherpeople know howard better than
he knows himself.
I find that offensive yes, now,on the other hand, he is not
sexually interested in emily.
You know three years engagedyeah, you know, and this is not
(30:32):
someone who's just veryconservative and like, because,
because that would be like a sixmonth engagement, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
One of the things like this movie and Chasing Amy
helped me crystallize somethingthat I really like about myself,
which I think is actually afeature of my neurodivergence,
which is that I can mind my ownbusiness like a motherfucker.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
If it's not my business, I don't get involved,
I don't think about it, I don'tquestion it.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It's not my business yep, I'm the same way.
I am the same way.
I think maybe we were raisedthat way.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I think that they're just, there are
boundaries and that and theirboundaries, and it's not like,
but you can tell me, I never saythat I know like that kind of
prurient like curiosity, like ifI understand, it's not my lane,
it's not my lane.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And I've always really liked that about myself
because I know like I don't, I'mnot going to meddle in other
people's business and I'm notgoing to like gossip about other
people.
I like that about myself.
This film has got me thinkingthere are limits to the benefits
of minding my own business likea motherfucker.
Because if you see a trainwreck coming, like Peter does
(31:40):
with the marriage between Emilyand Howard, like should you
maybe try to stop the trainwreck?
I don't know.
But the other aspect of it isthat I take people at their word
and lessen until I've beengiven reason not to Sure.
So like if someone has shownthemselves to be untrustworthy,
I don't take them at their word,right.
(32:02):
But Howard, running aroundsaying like I'm not gay, like
it's not that I have a problemwith gay, I just that's not who
I am.
Okay, I trust you know betterthan I do, right.
You know you know better than Ido, right, and that's something
I don't know how to like squarethat circle because it's none
(32:23):
of my business.
I trust people know themselvesbetter than I do In this film.
Other people may know more thanhe does.
Is that something that actuallyhappens or is that just the
sitcom-y nature of this film?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I mean I think that Like there's multiple,
there's like multiple thingsgoing on here, like on the one
hand and I'm the same way I takepeople at their word until I
have reason not to, and thatmakes me very bad at politics,
like any kind of like officepolitics or any kind of group
politics I'm very bad at becauseI take people at their word and
(32:59):
like I don't get subtext, whichdoesn't always serve me than
that, because the conceit of thefilm is that Howard is being
honest.
It's like an extra layer and Ithink what I find offensive
about the idea that other peopleknow him better than he knows
(33:20):
himself is that it's not his momor his dad or Emily who are his
most intimate confidants andpeople who like his inner circle
it's not them who are saying it, it's actually strangers or
like two or three circles out.
And based on these stereotypeswhich, as you say, like I mean,
(33:40):
because, like based on thosestereotypes, like I have short
hair and I prefer to weartrousers and I drive a stick
shift, I'm actually not alesbian, I'm genuinely not.
I don't want to sleep withwomen, but I do have short hair
and drive a stick shift andprefer pants over skirts, liking
(34:00):
Barbra Streisand and dancing toI Will Survive doesn't make
Howard gay.
Wanting to sleep with men makesHoward gay.
I think that's the piece thatfeels offensive in this film.
Not even that someone mightknow something about me that I'm
too close to see and that you,as my sister and friend, might
(34:20):
see it.
That's not offensive.
It's through these ridiculousstereotypes that really are
about masculinity, not actuallyabout homosexuality.
I think that's what feelsoffensive and dated and off in
what you've described.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, and to the movie's credit, final scene is
everyone dancing to Macho man,including Bob Newhart, Like it
takes him a little while to getinto it and like he's the most
uptight.
He's not the most macho of themen in the town, but he's the
most uptight.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And the casting too right.
Like Tom Selleck as the otherkind of out gay man in the film.
Like Selleck is notlimp-wristed, shrinking violet.
That I think the sort ofnon-masculine, like he's not an
effeminate man.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Selick is not.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And so that kind of pushes back against this idea
that things that are coded asnot masculine, that Howard likes
, are what makes him gay and yetlike it's a push me, pull me
thing.
I think that also, if we lookat how people are treated in the
(35:36):
movie, the fact that the actorthe former student like really
doesn't have any consequences,in fact gets to come save the
day from the mess that hehimself made.
He himself made like the movieitself does not provide
consequences for him, and yousay that you as a viewer have a
hard time viewing himsympathetically, but obviously
(35:57):
the movie does, and so I thinkthat also pushes back against
the idea that, like someone, arelative, stranger, could know
something about me that I don'tknow because of these markers
that are not actually related tothe identity.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
If they had given any , for why Cameron?
knew that Howard was gay becausethey never let us know how he
knew, other than other people'sassumptions about how he knew it
(36:40):
.
Just there is something to likethe kind of social pressure,
yeah, making it clear that heneeds to be straight to continue
teaching, and the fact that heis teaching and living in the
same small town that he hasspent his entire life in.
I think they got that kind ofright.
(37:01):
But what's interesting?
So I read several commentatorslast night.
One was saying that they preferthis movie to the Birdcage,
which came out, I believe, thesame year, and for a couple of
reasons.
One is that the end of the filmdoes not have like there's a
(37:21):
suggestion that Peter and Howardare together, but it's not
clear.
And it's clear that he is happyand content in himself, without
necessarily having to be pairedup because his support system
is around him, who loves him,like his students, his family,
his neighbors, his you know allof that.
I appreciated that.
And it's this small town inIndiana.
(37:41):
So this like kind ofconservative town has rallied
around this man, whereas the endof the birdcage there is a
clear demarcation between thesenator's side of the aisle at
the wedding and the birdcageside of the aisle.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Also just in the birdcage in general, like it's
the opposite, like it's theclosest, like the son is the one
kind of forcing the dad backinto the closet.
Yes, where in and out, whatyou've just described like there
are definitely forces that aretrying to keep howard in the
closet, but they're not hisfamily, his family is.
I mean they want the wedding,but only because they want the
(38:18):
pageantry right, not becausethey need him to be straight in
some way or to impress people insome way, like the birdcage.
Armand's son, val, is thevillain in my mind in that movie
and it sounds like like thevillain is actually the boss
saying if you're gay, you'refired, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah,
which is more.
It's not okay, mm-hmm, but itdoesn't break my heart in the
(38:43):
way that Armand's son saying itbreaks my heart.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The other thing that this commentator had to say was
the kiss was a big deal in thebirdcage.
You don't see much, if any,physical affection between yeah,
they sit close, that's that'sabout it.
They sit close, and some ofthat's because they're an old
married couple.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
You know they've been together for 20 years or
however long yeah, I do thinkthat robin williams and nathan
lane sold their connection inthat movie, but it was decidedly
non-sexual in terms of what wesaw on screen, as opposed to
like a full-on 12 second likereal kiss between tom sattelik
and kevin klein I hear that, butit was a non-consensual kiss,
(39:27):
yeah, which?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
and I'd like to believe that in 1997 we would
not have accepted a male leadsaying to a female lead, you
know what you need, and thengrabbing her and kissing her.
Oh no, we would have acceptedthat.
I think we would still acceptthat as a people I think we
(39:50):
really would if we wanted themtogether Like if we're shipping
them, absolutely yeah,absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I think we would still accept that.
If we're shipping them, yeah.
If we know that she doesn't, ifwe know that she doesn't want
it or that she's not interestedor that he's yucky, or for
something like that we won't,but or for something like then
we won't.
But if we like them together,like as a group, as groupthink,
like them together, we wouldabsolutely.
We'd be like yay, clap, clap,clap, in part because we've been
(40:18):
trained to that's how ithappens, it's not cool to ask
permission.
I mean to me that's really likethe challenge that I want to
place to Hollywood.
Like Hollywood, help us see howsexy it can be.
I mean to me that's really likethe challenge that I want to
place to Hollywood.
Like Hollywood, help us see howsexy it can be.
I mean, consent is sexy.
Please help us see how sexyconsent can be.
I know, I know, give us models.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
We don't have models, not really.
The sexiness of consent is WillFerrell in Stranger Than
Fiction.
He goes to Maggie Gyllenhaaland he says, and he's not
supposed to, because he'sauditing her, he's an IRS
auditor.
He goes to her and says I wantyou, and she's like okay.
And she's like and I'm like,well, I just I needed you to
(41:05):
know that.
And then just leaves it for herto decide what to do from there
.
And then just leaves it for herto decide what to do from there
.
Nice, so anyway, like that is,oh, that's.
I really wish that weren't howit went down, because the kiss
itself played for laughs, butalso kind of hot.
It's well done and it doesn'tshy away from like it's played
(41:28):
for the laughs in the way thatany kiss would be played for
laughs.
That like it surprises Howardhow much he likes it.
The other aspect of it andagain, this is 1997, so I know
that this is not something thatthe world was even talking about
.
I don't think I knew the term,but it's entirely possible that
Howard is asexual and it's notthat he's gay, and so you know
(41:50):
there's this kind of like gay,straight, you know, binary.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
And again to the film's credit, they do make it
clear that he is bad for Emily.
Yeah, you know they do caredeeply about each other, but at
one point he's like I have this,you know, beautiful, wonderful
fiance and she's so sweet andfunny and lovely and thin, and
like it's made like minorlyclear that she lost the weight
(42:19):
for him.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
And then we have the actor say you were beautiful
before.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
And at the end, when everyone's dancing, she has a
bag of cheese curls and Cameronis feeding them to her.
When everyone's dancing, shehas a bag of cheese curls, and,
and, and cameron is feeding themto her.
So it's, and she says somethingabout like my entire
self-esteem is tied up in thefact that you wanted me she says
that to howard.
She says that to howard.
So, like you know as much as Idon't, I find cameron
sympathetic, like I am glad atthe end that there is someone
(42:48):
with whom she had a connectionlike inappropriate, but still,
like you know, it's 15 yearsbefore.
And at one point, like theydance, like when he runs into
her there's a song startsplaying in the bar behind them
and he starts to take her todance.
She's like I can't, You're mystudent.
And he's like not anymore.
I appreciate that there is thatand that she has someone who
(43:10):
has even bigger cachet thanHoward Brackett Right, who
appreciates her for her.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Right, but you, yeah.
Well, we are running short ontime.
Are there any points that youwanted to make that you haven't
made?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Film passes the Bechdel test very well.
So Emily talks to many people,howard's mother talks to many
people.
There's the scene where all thewomen are sharing secrets.
There's one other thing.
So the secrets the first one islike the Rice Krispie treats
that I made for the wedding.
They're not mine, they're adead woman's recipe.
I stole the recipe fromso-and-so when she died.
(43:45):
And then someone else I don'tremember, like they didn't like
some famous show or movie.
And then one other woman oh and, by the way, the woman who
played the librarian at thebeginning of Ghostbusters is one
of the women in this scene andI was sitting there going like
how do I know her?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Her face is so familiar.
My uncle thought he was SaintJerome.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
But one woman says my husband has three testicles.
It's disgusting and that's whatgets everyone laughing and I
remember thinking that was funnywhen I was 18.
But seeing it now, I was justlike that's not your secret to
share.
That's the sort of thing where,like, I can definitely
understand a woman needing toshare that with their
(44:26):
girlfriends, but the way thatthey laugh about it and all of
that is just like, oh, that'sthe same problem that Cameron
did, Like he's sharing somethingto people that's not his secret
to share.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, presumably.
The husband knows he has threetesticles, though.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yes, yeah, he knows.
But now he has to like if hesees his wife's friends, he's
going to be like why are theytittering?
Oh God, they know.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Let me see if I can reflect back some of the
highlights and maybe put mystank on it a little bit.
So this film I think the thingsthat are really rising to the
surface from the analysis for meis really like a critique of
late 90s, although I think itlike.
It definitely has tendrils thatare still active today.
(45:14):
But specifically from this timecapsule from the late 90s, this
kind of conflation of genderexpression, specifically
masculinity and sexuality, as ifthe only way to be sort of a
real man and I'm putting quotesaround that is to have kind of
hyper-masculine characteristicsand interests and likes and to
(45:41):
also be heterosexual.
That constellation is necessaryand if any one of those things
is not true, then all of themare not true, right?
So the audio cassette thatHoward listens to that's trying
to help him reclaim hismasculinity, that you can't say,
(46:01):
the window treatments arefabulous.
You're not a real man if yousay that and therefore you are
also gay.
Therefore you are also gay.
It's like one domino and thewhole thing just falls down and
(46:24):
that kind of strict binary isfalse and hurtful.
It harms us, it harms peopleand it's very dangerous.
And I think it's very much bakedinto this, the movie in some
ways is trying to push backagainst it, but then doesn't,
because Howard is in fact gayand other people, namely the
former student, now actor know.
And so there's like this push me, pull me, which we see so often
with late 90s movies, wherelike, on the one hand, it's
(46:48):
about acceptance and god blessthese indiana townies and
howard's family who really rallyaround him.
Like it doesn't matter, we lovehim, we know who he is, it
doesn't matter if he's gay ornot.
And on the other hand, likethere's like a cosmological
reality that it's tapping intoabout what it means to be a man.
(47:11):
We also had like a little bitof a conversation about consent
and I think you were starting tosuggest that if it were a
heterosexual couple today, wewould push back against the lack
of consent in the kiss thathappens between the Tom Selleck
character and the Kevin Klinecharacter, and I think you were
starting to say that perhaps weaccept it because it was two men
(47:32):
and it was like the kind of thenovelty of it.
I disagree.
I actually think we still havea major problem with consent if
we are also meant to be kind ofexcitedly anticipating the
romance between two people.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Shipping.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Shipping.
If we are shipping twocharacters, then we somehow
don't care about consent like asa culture, which is a problem.
The guy-girls name that as amajor problem in the culture.
What it means to be gay in thisculture, or I should even I
(48:13):
should say queer and like expandthat, like not just gay as in
homosexual, but queer as in notkind of cis, straight and
allosexual meaning, not asexual.
It does pass bechdel, which iscool.
Joan cusack is very funny withher physical comedy.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
She was nominated for an Oscar for this film.
Oh wow, that's cool, which thethings that I was reading about
it was saying like that justkind of shows you how slim the
Pickens were.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
In 97,.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
yeah, not that she didn't do a fantastic job.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
but Well, those are the big things that I heard.
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
What this means to me .
Right right about my inabilityto read subtext and how that was
an early indicator that I wasneurodivergent, right.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
The other thing that I missed was, like when we put
this movie in conversation withother movies, right, so chasing
amy for you around, subtext, andaround taking people at their
word, especially about somethingabout their identity, which
both of these films suggest wecan't do, and also in
conversation with the birdcage,which there are things about the
birdcage that are reallybeautiful, that we see like real
(49:25):
love.
The most healthy romanticrelationship in the birdcage is
between the Nathan Lane andRobin Williams characters, but
also the person asking them togo back in the closet is their
son, and that's really messed up, as opposed to this film where
the person asking him to stay inthe closet is his boss, which
isn't okay, but at least it'snot like an intimate, it's not a
(49:48):
betrayal.
It's not a betrayal, right,yeah, it's not like a, you know,
an intimate.
It's not a betrayal.
It's not a betrayal, right,yeah.
The other thing that we talkedabout, I think a little bit is
sort of about minding our ownbusiness and sort of taking
people at their word, the prosand cons in that, the assets and
liabilities of doing that,trying to navigate, like how
much of it is your business ifyou see someone about to make a
(50:10):
huge mistake?
Speaker 1 (50:11):
that's going to hurt other people, right?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Which I still don't have an answer for.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Right, well, and also sort of like the politicking
gets very, very difficult.
And also like we talked a bitabout the idea that someone
could know something about methat I don't know about me and
who can know that?
Like that someone from adistance could know that.
And the suggestion again thiscomes back to the cosmological,
like essentialist, theessentialist argument that this
(50:37):
film seems to be making abouthomosexuality and masculinity
together.
That feels offensive.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I will say to be fair , cameron Drake is not malicious
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
No, sure, sure, sure.
I don't think anybody'smalicious, no, and the movie
makers aren't either.
I just have a fundamentaldisagreement with them about the
essentialist nature of it, thatthey are suggesting that
necessarily the masculinitynecessarily goes with the
homosexuality, which they alsocounter with the casting of Tom
Selleck, but still seem to bekind of reifying with the action
(51:10):
of the film.
So, yeah, cool, I don't think Ineed to rewatch this one, but
still seemed to be kind ofreifying with the action of the
film.
So, yeah, cool, I don't think Ineed to rewatch this one, if I
even ever saw it.
But next week, actually, myfamily is going to visit Hawaii
to celebrate a big life cycleevent that we had, and so for
next week I am going to rewatchLilo and Stitch, which is the
film that introduced me toHawaiian culture.
(51:32):
So I want to take a closer lookat that and see, like, what it
got right and what it didn't,and we'll see how that goes.
So I'm kind of excited aboutthat.
I know people younger than meMoana like introduced them to
sort of Pacific Islander, butfor me it was Lilo and Stitch.
It was Lilo and Stitch Lookingforward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(51:55):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
(52:19):
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
And Howard says to him do I look like a homosexual
to you?
And Bob Newhart says I don'tknow.
Stand up and walk for me.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Oy, yi, yi, what a horrible, like ugh.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:32):
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 Kevin Kline film In andOut with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in.
So, tracy, I have no idea ifyou've seen this film, if you
(01:01):
remember this film or anything.
It's kind of one of those likeforgettable 90s films, but it
made a big impression on me.
So tell me what you know aboutthis film, if anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I don't know if I've seen it or not.
What is in my head about it isKevin Kline, which you already
said is gay and closeted, andsomeone outs him, someone else
outs him and then, or maybe he'seven closeted to himself
somehow.
Yeah, that's it.
That's all I got Kevin Klinecloseted, outed by someone else.
(01:33):
That's all I got.
But you just named it asforgettable but making an
impression on you.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
So we a few weeks ago we talked about Chasing Amy,
which also came out, I believe,in 1997.
And this film was the secondone of that year and I couldn't
remember which one I saw first.
I saw both of them in thetheater where someone makes a
(02:01):
statement about their sexualityand I went wait what?
That's not what I thought washappening.
In Chasing Amy, alyssa, playedby Joey Lauren Adams, makes it
very clear that she is gay, sheis a lesbian, she's not
interested in men, and then shekisses Ben Affleck.
And in this film, kevin Klinespends probably the first three
(02:23):
quarters of the film tellingeveryone I'm not gay.
I don't know why he said thatuntil at his wedding to a woman,
instead of saying I do, he saysI'm gay.
And I remember being in thetheater going like what movie am
(02:43):
I watching?
For me, revisiting this film wasa little bit about going back
into undiagnosed neurodivergenceas a teenager, because I think
that both of these films give mea really clear-eyed view of
things that in retrospect areobvious about my understanding
of subtext understanding ofsubtext.
(03:11):
But it's also a veryinteresting time capsule of
greater acceptance and awarenessof homosexuality in American
media.
But at the same time it'sreally relying on some very ugly
stereotypes.
So there's a very sweet heartunderneath of this film.
But it's also like I waswatching it and my son came in.
(03:31):
I was like I really don't wantyou watching this film.
Not that like there's anything.
He was saying like, oh, is itnot appropriate?
I was like no, I need to talkto you about pretty much every
single thing that happens inthis film and I don't have the
time for it right now.
So it's not that it'sinappropriate, it's that it's
really outdated.
All of those are part of it.
And then I did not know thestory behind why this film came
(03:54):
to be, nor did I realize that itwas directed by Frank Oz, Miss
Piggy.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Wait what.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Miss Piggy directed this film.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Weird.
I know, is Oz gay.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
No, paul Rudnick, who wrote the screenplay, is Okay.
You know basically what I wantto bring to discussing this very
weird film that does not havestaying power but that I think
was in a lot of ways veryinfluential because of the type
(04:33):
of gay story it told.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
And Klein was already like a well-known, yes, he was
already A-list, yeah, yes.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
It's full of A-list stars.
So Joan Cusack is in it, debbieReynolds, wilford Brimley, matt
Dillon, and then there were alot of young actors who went on
to have pretty long glowingcareers, who were in their early
20s or even late teens, becauseKlein's character plays a
schoolteacher, so it's hisstudents Bob Newhart's in it as
(05:01):
well.
Oh yeah, it's quite a list.
Oh, and Tom Selleck, oh yes.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Is he the love interest?
He's not, not the love interest.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Okay, I'll kind of give you a little like the
background of the film and thenthe plot of the film before we
kind of jump into the analysis.
Okay, so this I was completelyunaware of until yesterday.
Background the reason why thisfilm was written was because
when Tom Hanks won the Oscar forPhiladelphia, he thanked two
(05:41):
people from his past, a teacherand a fellow student that he
went to, I think, high schoolwith, who were gay, and he named
the teacher and he said two ofthe finest gay Americans I have
ever known, or something alongthose lines, and said like this
is for them, this Oscar is forthem.
And I will have to look it up.
(06:01):
I don't know if it was Frank Ozwho saw that, but someone was
like wouldn't it be interestingif someone did that?
And it wasn't the person.
They said you know, like thisgay person who influenced me
wasn't out of the closet.
So that's where the idea of thestory came from.
And they wanted to make it kindof a farce.
(06:21):
So that's the background.
Wanted to make it kind of afarce, so that's the background.
So the story is set in afictional small town called
Greenleaf, indiana.
I think that it's importantthat it's set in Indiana.
That's not something Iremembered but that was like an
important aspect of it,considering this is 1997.
1997 was the year that EllenDeGeneres had her character come
(06:44):
out as gay on her sitcom andthen her sitcom was canceled.
So it was very controversial atthe time.
Just talking about the factthat gay people exist was
controversial.
We meet Kevin Kline's HowardBrackett.
He is a high school Englishteacher.
He is engaged to anotherEnglish teacher, miss Emily
Montgomery, who is played byJoan Cusack.
(07:06):
They are getting married at theend of the week.
We meet him talking to hiscurrent class of seniors because
one of his former students hasgone on to become an actor and
is up for the Best Oscar ActorAward for his part in a film
called Protect and Serve about agay soldier in Vietnam.
(07:27):
So we learn that Howard andEmily have been engaged for
three years.
We see everyone gathering inthe town to watch Cameron Drake
is the former student played byMatt Dillon to see if he wins
the Oscar.
He does.
We see a clip of the film whichis ridiculous but also like
horrifying, because he is thecharacter is expelled from the
(07:49):
military dishonorably, gets adishonorable discharge because
he is gay, but their evidence ishe has a signed VHS copy of
Beaches, signed by Bette Midler.
There's more than that, butlike there's a love letter and
then there's something else, andthen like there's the signed
copy of Beaches and like in thecourt, martial trial, he's
(08:10):
whatever you call it.
He says you give that back.
He's like stoic abouteverything else.
She says like I need to acceptthis on behalf of all of the gay
Americans who are not able toserve.
But I also really want to makesure that I talk about someone
who's very influential in mylife.
(08:31):
He taught me Shakespeare, mrHoward Brackett, my high school
English teacher, and he's gay.
And then there's silence allacross Greenleaf, indiana.
So Howard's parents come overto his house.
Howard is there with hisfiancee saying like I don't know
why he said that.
His parents come over and theysay look, you're our son.
(08:51):
We would love you, no matterwho you are, what you are, if
you're gay, straight, if yourobbed a bank, if you killed
someone.
We will always love you.
Except you have to get married.
Because mom needs music,flowers, place cards.
It's like an addiction.
I need the wedding.
We then learn that Emilydoesn't live with Howard because
Howard's parents give her aride home, and then the next day
(09:16):
, the slathering hordes of themedia descend, including Peter
Molloy, who is played by TomSelleck without a mustache.
Wait what?
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That comes off.
No, yeah, okay, rearrange yourmental furniture right now.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Howard is getting hounded by everyone.
His principal asks him toplease talk to the media,
because they're talking toeveryone at the school and the
principal, played by Bob Newhart, is getting some complaints
from parents at the allegationthat Howard is gay.
Media departs, except for PeterMolloy, as played by
(10:18):
mustache-less Tom Selleck,because he is under pressure
from his network and so he wantsto get kind of a deeper story,
more than just like like seteverything up and he's like all
right, what kind of you knowtriple X have you brought me?
And like we have the uncutedition of Funny Girl, because
he really likes Barbra Streisand.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
And that's supposed to be code for those of us
watching that he is in fact gay.
I think so, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What the movie does right and is kind of great.
All of these very likeMidwestern guys are saying like
you had that little filmfestival for us, like last year,
and we knew that you lovedBarbara and you know what.
It was actually really fun.
There's a lot of really goodmovies.
Howard is like no, that's notwhat I want, it's my bachelor
(11:01):
party.
And one guy says, oh well, youknow what Gansel kind of sucked.
And Howard's like, oh, how dareyou.
And like the guy says BarbaraStreisand was too old for that
role and they get into a brawl.
No-transcript.
(11:54):
Emily is a little younger thanHoward, actually quite a bit
younger than Howard, and she hadbeen much heavier and she lost
75 pounds.
She had talked earlier aboutdoing Richard Simmons videos.
So when he gets to herapartment she's working out to a
Richard Simmons video and he'slike kind of taking her into bed
.
She's delighted.
But then he looks over and shehad just muted Richard Simmons
(12:18):
so he can see it.
He freaks out, he's like got toturn that off, got to turn that
off.
And so they don't end upconsummating the relationship
and he runs off again and againEmily reassures him like I love
you, I'm not worried about this.
We're getting married.
You know, like this is yourHoward, I'm Emily, we're good,
still freaking out.
He's riding his bike and he goesthrough an intersection and is
(12:39):
nearly run over by Peter Molloy,tom Selleck, who, like, gets
out and is trying to calm himdown.
Molloy tells him like I cameout it was actually, it was
tough, but it was the best thingI ever did.
He says the one line that likeI, that I think held up over the
past 30 years, which is like hesays you know, I told my mom,
(13:02):
my dad, my dog, my boss.
I said Mom, dad, sparky, I'mgay.
Mom cried for about 10 seconds.
My dad said but you're so tall.
And then Peter Molloy kissesHoward.
This is one of the again one ofthe reasons why I'm like a
little uncomfortable with thisfilm.
He kisses him, he says you knowwhat you need, and then he
(13:24):
grabs him and kisses him.
Now, to the film's credit, itis a 12 second full on kiss.
It is played for laughs, but itis also made clear that Howard
is enjoying it, which is grossbecause it's nonconsensual,
right, you know, it's like.
If only that it had been.
(13:45):
Like I'm gonna kiss you.
Tell me if you don't want me tolike if they've done that
anyway, still freaking out.
Howard goes home and he has likethis brown paper package under
his bed.
He takes it out and it's a um,reclaiming your masculinity,
like audio cassette tape thing.
(14:05):
And so he starts playing it andit's like a man talking, saying
, like you know, are you wearingsomething appropriately
masculine?
He's wearing like a plaidbutton down shirt.
Well, untuck it only half of itand like, oh, you hate this,
don't you?
And then it goes through, likeyou know, say things like yo,
and hot damn, what fabulouswindow treatments.
(14:26):
See, that was a trick.
You shouldn't have said it.
So this scene is actually very,very funny and would have held
up if it had not been like soclearly you're gay because of
this.
I took it when I was watchingit as little baby Emily, emily,
as like yeah, there's not anyone way to be a man.
(14:47):
That scene one of the things itsays is like one thing a man
never does is dance.
There is no rhythm, there's nograce, there is no pleasure, and
it starts playing I willsurvive.
And he has this like amazing,like joyful dance around the
room and is again it's just likehow is that about
(15:08):
heterosexuality or homosexuality, or masculinity or femininity?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
like that's a banger like fred astaire and, oh,
mikhail baryshnikov.
I mean like gene, what's?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
his name Gene.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Kelly, yeah Him, yeah , yeah, like what?
Speaker 1 (15:25):
I just recently learned that tango was
originally created as a dancebetween two men, because it was
a situation where there weren'tenough female partners.
Huh, I'll include a link in theshow notes.
There is this hot video of twomen doing the tango.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
As in H-A-W-T, hot, hot Anyway.
So real men don't dance, butKevin Kline Howard Kevin Kline's
Howard dances to I Will Survive.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Yes, his students are freaking out a little bit.
Not freaking out, they'recluelessly talking about it and
like they're saying like I thinkI figured out why he thinks
you're gay, you're a decenthuman being, you're very clean
and neat and tidy Gay.
And it's like and his principalbasically tells him if you
(16:17):
don't get married, you're goingto get fired because parents are
worried.
The principal says to him like,do you enjoy teaching?
And he says no, I don't enjoyteaching, I love it.
This is my life.
And he says well, you need toget married.
Basically he's like is that athreat?
No, it's a warning.
We're friends.
Friends warn each other.
It also had a line.
(16:41):
Bob Newhart, as the principal,had a line that I thought was
hilarious in 1997 and cringedwatching it last night, where
Howard says to him do I looklike a homosexual to you?
And Bob Newhart says I don'tknow.
Stand up and walk for me.
(17:02):
Oy yoy, what a horrible like,like I, I had forgotten about
that line, but seeing it I waslike oh yeah, I remember that
being funny I mean honestly,there's no.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Just the question itself is cringeworthy yes, yes,
in 97, it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
In 97, it wasn't.
And the context of where Howardis that he's being asked that
like.
So the principal is saying tohim like parents are calling
because they're concerned thatyou're a home and Howard goes a
homeroom teacher, he's like andhe finally gets the word out
(17:39):
homosexual and like.
It's forgivable the way that,with the way that everyone is
treating Howard, I did not feeluncomfortable with Howard
responding in that way.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Not that I think that's okay.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
But just because he is being pushed into this corner
, yeah, sure, okay.
So Howard's parents invitePeter Malloy to the wedding.
Why they run into them rightafter the kiss?
Oh, so they think they'refriendly.
They think they're friendly.
He's like, oh, any friend ofHoward's, I hope you'll come to
the wedding.
And so at the wedding, emilycomes down the aisle.
(18:12):
They take way too long.
Does anyone know of anyimpediment?
Because it's a movie.
And then starts with do you takethis man to be your husband?
To Emily, she says I do man tobe your husband.
To Emily, she says I do.
Turns to Howard and he says I'mgay.
And then, like, turns aroundand comes out to the entire
congregation at the church.
Emily runs off, he runs afterher and he and this part I
(18:36):
remember is very well is likeI'm a horrible person.
You must hate me.
I insist that you hate me.
I can't believe I've done thisto you.
Something that a commentatorthat I was reading talked about
is the fact that she is notangry at him for being gay.
She's angry at him for histiming.
Because she says to him don'tyou think there could have been
(18:58):
any point in time when you couldhave said this, yeah sure,
prior to now.
And then there is another veryfunny moment.
That again is like, yeah sure.
Does anyone here know how manytimes I have had to watch Funny
Girl?
And then she drops the onlyF-bomb in the movie.
(19:32):
She goes fuck Barbra Streisandand then runs off and drives
away in the just married carwith like the dress hanging out.
So like the physical comedy ishilarious, uh-huh.
(19:59):
He's like I'm trying here, butare you going to have an
operation?
Are you going to be going intoshowbiz?
And Howard's like no, dad, no.
And his dad's like look, I'mjust a farmer, I don't know any
of this.
I really am trying.
I'm really trying, howard.
And then Howard tells hisfather that he was fired.
Right after the not wedding hegot a phone call and his father
(20:23):
says well, graduation's onMonday, I really hope you'll be
there.
He's like I don't work thereanymore.
He's like you taught those kidsall year, you should be at
graduation.
We see Emily show up at a bar,still full bridal regalia.
Peter Malloy is there.
It's not clear, but it soundslike he's been fired as well.
They start talking.
He's very kind to her.
She is like really in and outof good place.
(20:46):
She's like I love you, you'renice, will you sleep with me?
And he's like I'm gay.
And she's like ah, is everyonegay?
The other line that she's likeit's been three years of sunsets
and friendship and loving,loving support.
I am ready.
This is a medical condition.
At this point she runs out andis like is there any
(21:16):
heterosexual men?
This is a red heterosexual, redalert.
And is like in the middle ofthe road and Cameron Drake
almost runs her over and he getsout.
We had learned that she had beena student teacher the year that
he was a senior and that shehad helped him.
She'd done tutoring afterschool for him to help him with
(21:36):
Romeo and Juliet and they quotedit back and forth to each other
.
And Howard is like, oh goodness.
And she's like no, no, it wasfine, I was a student teacher,
he was a student.
I've actually looked it up.
Joan Cusack is two years olderthan Matt Dillon.
She would have been like a20-year-old student teacher with
an 18-year-old high schoolstudent.
And so he, for a second, hedoesn't recognize her.
(21:57):
And then he's like, oh, missMontgomery, and he goes what
happened?
And she goes everythinghappened because of you.
And she's like no, no, no, Idon't mean that, but your body
is so different.
She's like well, I've lost 75pounds.
And he's like well, why wouldyou do that?
You were so beautiful?
He's like I mean you still are.
I mean you're very beautiful,but it's clear that he had a
(22:24):
crush on her even when she wasmuch bigger.
We see Howard's mom talking toseveral of the other old ladies
and they're like you know, whyis this a bad thing?
Let's stop keeping secrets?
And they all start sharingsecrets and laughing.
And then we, at the graduation,which also has the announcement
of Teacher of the Year, adifferent teacher is announced
as Teacher of the Year.
Cameron Drake comes in and sayswasn't Mr Brackett up for that?
(22:45):
And everyone's freaking outbecause he's a movie star.
And he's like well, he's nolonger employed here and so
which is the first, the kids?
Anyone has heard of that.
And so there's some back andforth about how, like members of
the community are uncomfortablewith this that he might
influence.
And Cameron Drake is likeasking the principal questions
in order to like get him toadmit like, yeah, we're afraid
(23:07):
the gay is going to rub off onthe kids.
One student, and it is unclearif it was written that he was
actually gay or if this is justan I Am Spartacus moment.
But he's like well, I've beenhis student all year.
It must have rubbed off on mebecause I'm gay.
And so then the other threestudents who we've seen as like
the closest to Howard alsoannounced that they're gay.
(23:27):
The principal's like well, butit's about members of the
community.
So Howard's brother stands up,says I'm a member of the
community and I don't care.
He's like yes, but you're not aparent.
And so Howard's parents standup and say, like we're parents
and we don't care.
And so then everyone startssaying you know what?
But I'm gay too, and I'm gay.
And so there's this huge I amSpartacus moment, and the
teacher who won Teacher of theYear says yes, but I'm still
(23:48):
Teacher of the Year.
And so Cameron Drake jumps upand says well, he may not get
that award, but I think there'sanother one that he deserves.
And he gives the Oscar that hewon to Howard.
And the film ends with Howard'sparents renewing their vows so
that Howard's mom can have thebeauty and the music and the
(24:09):
place cards and stuff.
And it's this huge dance partywhere everyone is dancing to
Macho man party, where everyoneis dancing to Macho man.
So when I'm talking aboutthings that haven't aged well, I
like starting with what getsright.
So the thing that this filmgets right is the idea of
(24:32):
acceptance.
Everyone in this small townloves Howard.
They all really think he's thegreatest guy ever, and the fact
that he's gay doesn't changethat.
The only person for whom thatchanges things is the principal,
and it's clear he's just aweasel.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So is it?
Is the impression, then, thathe's actually lying when he says
the community doesn't want thegay to rub off on the kids.
It's unclear.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, it's unclear to me and you know this is a.
It's a very sitcom.
Everything's wrapped up in apretty bow For the kind of
Indiana watchers viewers whowere like Wilford Brimley's
(25:21):
character going are you going tohave an operation now?
Who were like I don't know whatany of this means, but also
made it clear that the dad wastrying his best.
He had no idea what the hell hewas talking about.
It doesn't affect how father orson feel about each other.
(25:42):
Yeah, yeah, there wasgentleness to it.
Yes, yeah, it's a gentleridicule, and that I think they
did really well.
The other thing this wassomething that really stuck in
my head.
So it's two boys and two girlswho are like the core students,
who are like big fans ofHoward's in his class, and so
(26:02):
one of the boys is kind of ablowhard, is they're in the
locker room, howard is the trackcoach.
I think they're in the lockerroom, they're talking about it.
They're talking about like theblowhard is saying like there's
two times where it's okay to begay One is in prison, where it's
a substitute, and the other isin space and like he's just it's
ridiculous and he's like well,it's, that's the thing.
(26:22):
Like you know, it's the humanbody.
Human body has in holes and outholes and so you know, gay men,
they put things in the outholes.
And so another kid asks somouth's an in-hole.
It's like, yeah, yeah, you eat,but like when you vomit it
comes out the in-hole and that'swrong.
And that's why, and like thatfelt familiar when I was 18 to
(26:43):
the kind of bullshit that I hearfrom my guy friends.
Yeah, and like I remember and Ithought it was in the movie,
but I kind of appreciate thatthey let the audience do this
itself.
The kid asking like so mouth'san in-hole.
The kid's obviously going likenot everything gay men do is
(27:04):
wrong, right.
So like for a movie that isvery like over the top and
underlining the thesis, yeah,they let the audience be like
this kid's full of shit.
So I thought that was somethingthey did very nicely.
Seeing Howard's comfort withhimself after he comes out is
(27:29):
really well done.
Now, kevin Kline he's aphenomenally talented actor and
hilarious.
He's a very incredible comedian.
So I felt like the way that heshowed like this kind of like
comfort in himself once he'scome out was really well done.
But I got to get to the thingthat little baby Emily was
(27:55):
confused by and adult Emilywatching it last night was also
like, frustrated by.
I could tell, even as an 18 yearold, that the movie wanted me
to make assumptions aboutHoward's sexuality based on
stereotypes.
But for me, I'm watching thisand a third party outs Howard.
That's just wrong.
Outs him to the world, and forme it was just like Mm-hmm Outs
(28:16):
him to the world, and for me itwas just like he hasn't seen
this kid in I don't know 15years.
Cameron Drake is shown to be notthe brightest bulb, mm-hmm, so
like it never occurred to methat he was right about
something that Howard himselfdidn't know or you know.
Like that just seems like sucha betrayal of boundaries.
(28:40):
Not like it would be a betrayalof boundaries if Howard were
gay and closeted and hadactually had a conversation with
Cameron about it.
He's outing him to the entireworld.
That's not okay.
But the fact that Howard iscloseted to the point where he's
getting married to a woman andsomeone else makes this
(29:03):
assumption about him and feelslike they have the right, I
cannot, like.
I have trouble seeing Cameronas a sympathetic character
because of that, even thoughthey very much want him to be a
sympathetic character.
That's part of it, I thought,like the entire movie, until he
(29:25):
says I'm gay.
I thought it was a little bitmore about how masculinity
doesn't have to be any one thing.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Right, right, and actually it just reifies the
idea that the fact that he's nothypermasculine, therefore he
must be gay.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yes, and I've been thinking about it.
One of the things that PeterMalloy says is like because
Howard says I love Emily, Idon't want to hurt her, and
Peter says, well, think abouthow much you'll hurt her if you
go through with this wedding.
Says, well, think about howmuch you'll hurt her if you go
through with this wedding.
So that again Peter assumes heknows who Howard is.
But he does make a good pointthat if you do know this about
(30:06):
yourself, don't do this to her.
But we don't have anyindication that Howard does know
this about himself.
We don't have any indicationwhatsoever.
And the assumption that otherpeople know howard better than
he knows himself.
I find that offensive yes, now,on the other hand, he is not
sexually interested in emily.
You know three years engagedyeah, you know, and this is not
(30:32):
someone who's just veryconservative and like, because,
because that would be like a sixmonth engagement, you know.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
One of the things like this movie and Chasing Amy
helped me crystallize somethingthat I really like about myself,
which I think is actually afeature of my neurodivergence,
which is that I can mind my ownbusiness like a motherfucker.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
If it's not my business, I don't get involved,
I don't think about it, I don'tquestion it.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
It's not my business yep, I'm the same way.
I am the same way.
I think maybe we were raisedthat way.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
I think that's.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I think that they're just, there are
boundaries and that and theirboundaries, and it's not like,
but you can tell me, I never saythat I know like that kind of
prurient like curiosity, like ifI understand, it's not my lane,
it's not my lane.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
And I've always really liked that about myself
because I know like I don't, I'mnot going to meddle in other
people's business and I'm notgoing to like gossip about other
people.
I like that about myself.
This film has got me thinkingthere are limits to the benefits
of minding my own business likea motherfucker.
Because if you see a trainwreck coming, like Peter does
(31:40):
with the marriage between Emilyand Howard, like should you
maybe try to stop the trainwreck?
I don't know.
But the other aspect of it isthat I take people at their word
and lessen until I've beengiven reason not to Sure.
So like if someone has shownthemselves to be untrustworthy,
I don't take them at their word,right.
(32:02):
But Howard, running aroundsaying like I'm not gay, like
it's not that I have a problemwith gay, I just that's not who
I am.
Okay, I trust you know betterthan I do, right.
You know you know better than Ido, right, and that's something
I don't know how to like squarethat circle because it's none
(32:23):
of my business.
I trust people know themselvesbetter than I do In this film.
Other people may know more thanhe does.
Is that something that actuallyhappens or is that just the
sitcom-y nature of this film?
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Yeah, I mean I think that Like there's multiple,
there's like multiple thingsgoing on here, like on the one
hand and I'm the same way I takepeople at their word until I
have reason not to, and thatmakes me very bad at politics,
like any kind of like officepolitics or any kind of group
politics I'm very bad at becauseI take people at their word and
(32:59):
like I don't get subtext, whichdoesn't always serve me than
that, because the conceit of thefilm is that Howard is being
honest.
It's like an extra layer and Ithink what I find offensive
about the idea that other peopleknow him better than he knows
(33:20):
himself is that it's not his momor his dad or Emily who are his
most intimate confidants andpeople who like his inner circle
it's not them who are saying it, it's actually strangers or
like two or three circles out.
And based on these stereotypeswhich, as you say, like I mean,
(33:40):
because, like based on thosestereotypes, like I have short
hair and I prefer to weartrousers and I drive a stick
shift, I'm actually not alesbian, I'm genuinely not.
I don't want to sleep withwomen, but I do have short hair
and drive a stick shift andprefer pants over skirts, liking
(34:00):
Barbra Streisand and dancing toI Will Survive doesn't make
Howard gay.
Wanting to sleep with men makesHoward gay.
I think that's the piece thatfeels offensive in this film.
Not even that someone mightknow something about me that I'm
too close to see and that you,as my sister and friend, might
(34:20):
see it.
That's not offensive.
It's through these ridiculousstereotypes that really are
about masculinity, not actuallyabout homosexuality.
I think that's what feelsoffensive and dated and off in
what you've described.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, and to the movie's credit, final scene is
everyone dancing to Macho man,including Bob Newhart, Like it
takes him a little while to getinto it and like he's the most
uptight.
He's not the most macho of themen in the town, but he's the
most uptight.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And the casting too right.
Like Tom Selleck as the otherkind of out gay man in the film.
Like Selleck is notlimp-wristed, shrinking violet.
That I think the sort ofnon-masculine, like he's not an
effeminate man.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Selick is not.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
And so that kind of pushes back against this idea
that things that are coded asnot masculine, that Howard likes
, are what makes him gay and yetlike it's a push me, pull me
thing.
I think that also, if we lookat how people are treated in the
(35:36):
movie, the fact that the actorthe former student like really
doesn't have any consequences,in fact gets to come save the
day from the mess that hehimself made.
He himself made like the movieitself does not provide
consequences for him, and yousay that you as a viewer have a
hard time viewing himsympathetically, but obviously
(35:57):
the movie does, and so I thinkthat also pushes back against
the idea that, like someone, arelative, stranger, could know
something about me that I don'tknow because of these markers
that are not actually related tothe identity.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
If they had given any , for why Cameron?
knew that Howard was gay becausethey never let us know how he
knew, other than other people'sassumptions about how he knew it
(36:40):
.
Just there is something to likethe kind of social pressure,
yeah, making it clear that heneeds to be straight to continue
teaching, and the fact that heis teaching and living in the
same small town that he hasspent his entire life in.
I think they got that kind ofright.
(37:01):
But what's interesting?
So I read several commentatorslast night.
One was saying that they preferthis movie to the Birdcage,
which came out, I believe, thesame year, and for a couple of
reasons.
One is that the end of the filmdoes not have like there's a
(37:21):
suggestion that Peter and Howardare together, but it's not
clear.
And it's clear that he is happyand content in himself, without
necessarily having to be pairedup because his support system
is around him, who loves him,like his students, his family,
his neighbors, his you know allof that.
I appreciated that.
And it's this small town inIndiana.
(37:41):
So this like kind ofconservative town has rallied
around this man, whereas the endof the birdcage there is a
clear demarcation between thesenator's side of the aisle at
the wedding and the birdcageside of the aisle.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Also just in the birdcage in general, like it's
the opposite, like it's theclosest, like the son is the one
kind of forcing the dad backinto the closet.
Yes, where in and out, whatyou've just described like there
are definitely forces that aretrying to keep howard in the
closet, but they're not hisfamily, his family is.
I mean they want the wedding,but only because they want the
(38:18):
pageantry right, not becausethey need him to be straight in
some way or to impress people insome way, like the birdcage.
Armand's son, val, is thevillain in my mind in that movie
and it sounds like like thevillain is actually the boss
saying if you're gay, you'refired, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah,
which is more.
It's not okay, mm-hmm, but itdoesn't break my heart in the
(38:43):
way that Armand's son saying itbreaks my heart.
Yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (38:50):
The other thing that this commentator had to say was
the kiss was a big deal in thebirdcage.
You don't see much, if any,physical affection between yeah,
they sit close, that's that'sabout it.
They sit close, and some ofthat's because they're an old
married couple.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
You know they've been together for 20 years or
however long yeah, I do thinkthat robin williams and nathan
lane sold their connection inthat movie, but it was decidedly
non-sexual in terms of what wesaw on screen, as opposed to
like a full-on 12 second likereal kiss between tom sattelik
and kevin klein I hear that, butit was a non-consensual kiss,
(39:27):
yeah, which?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
and I'd like to believe that in 1997 we would
not have accepted a male leadsaying to a female lead, you
know what you need, and thengrabbing her and kissing her.
Oh no, we would have acceptedthat.
I think we would still acceptthat as a people I think we
(39:50):
really would if we wanted themtogether Like if we're shipping
them, absolutely yeah,absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
I think we would still accept that.
If we're shipping them, yeah.
If we know that she doesn't, ifwe know that she doesn't want
it or that she's not interestedor that he's yucky, or for
something like that we won't,but or for something like then
we won't.
But if we like them together,like as a group, as groupthink,
like them together, we wouldabsolutely.
We'd be like yay, clap, clap,clap, in part because we've been
(40:18):
trained to that's how ithappens, it's not cool to ask
permission.
I mean to me that's really likethe challenge that I want to
place to Hollywood.
Like Hollywood, help us see howsexy it can be.
I mean to me that's really likethe challenge that I want to
place to Hollywood.
Like Hollywood, help us see howsexy it can be.
I mean, consent is sexy.
Please help us see how sexyconsent can be.
I know, I know, give us models.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
We don't have models, not really.
The sexiness of consent is WillFerrell in Stranger Than
Fiction.
He goes to Maggie Gyllenhaaland he says, and he's not
supposed to, because he'sauditing her, he's an IRS
auditor.
He goes to her and says I wantyou, and she's like okay.
And she's like and I'm like,well, I just I needed you to
(41:05):
know that.
And then just leaves it for herto decide what to do from there
.
And then just leaves it for herto decide what to do from there
.
Nice, so anyway, like that is,oh, that's.
I really wish that weren't howit went down, because the kiss
itself played for laughs, butalso kind of hot.
It's well done and it doesn'tshy away from like it's played
(41:28):
for the laughs in the way thatany kiss would be played for
laughs.
That like it surprises Howardhow much he likes it.
The other aspect of it andagain, this is 1997, so I know
that this is not something thatthe world was even talking about
.
I don't think I knew the term,but it's entirely possible that
Howard is asexual and it's notthat he's gay, and so you know
(41:50):
there's this kind of like gay,straight, you know, binary.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
And again to the film's credit, they do make it
clear that he is bad for Emily.
Yeah, you know they do caredeeply about each other, but at
one point he's like I have this,you know, beautiful, wonderful
fiance and she's so sweet andfunny and lovely and thin, and
like it's made like minorlyclear that she lost the weight
(42:19):
for him.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
And then we have the actor say you were beautiful
before.
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
And at the end, when everyone's dancing, she has a
bag of cheese curls and Cameronis feeding them to her.
When everyone's dancing, shehas a bag of cheese curls, and,
and, and cameron is feeding themto her.
So it's, and she says somethingabout like my entire
self-esteem is tied up in thefact that you wanted me she says
that to howard.
She says that to howard.
So, like you know as much as Idon't, I find cameron
sympathetic, like I am glad atthe end that there is someone
(42:48):
with whom she had a connectionlike inappropriate, but still,
like you know, it's 15 yearsbefore.
And at one point, like theydance, like when he runs into
her there's a song startsplaying in the bar behind them
and he starts to take her todance.
She's like I can't, You're mystudent.
And he's like not anymore.
I appreciate that there is thatand that she has someone who
(43:10):
has even bigger cachet thanHoward Brackett Right, who
appreciates her for her.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Right, but you, yeah.
Well, we are running short ontime.
Are there any points that youwanted to make that you haven't
made?
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Film passes the Bechdel test very well.
So Emily talks to many people,howard's mother talks to many
people.
There's the scene where all thewomen are sharing secrets.
There's one other thing.
So the secrets the first one islike the Rice Krispie treats
that I made for the wedding.
They're not mine, they're adead woman's recipe.
I stole the recipe fromso-and-so when she died.
(43:45):
And then someone else I don'tremember, like they didn't like
some famous show or movie.
And then one other woman oh and, by the way, the woman who
played the librarian at thebeginning of Ghostbusters is one
of the women in this scene andI was sitting there going like
how do I know her?
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Her face is so familiar.
My uncle thought he was SaintJerome.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
But one woman says my husband has three testicles.
It's disgusting and that's whatgets everyone laughing and I
remember thinking that was funnywhen I was 18.
But seeing it now, I was justlike that's not your secret to
share.
That's the sort of thing where,like, I can definitely
understand a woman needing toshare that with their
(44:26):
girlfriends, but the way thatthey laugh about it and all of
that is just like, oh, that'sthe same problem that Cameron
did, Like he's sharing somethingto people that's not his secret
to share.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Yeah, presumably.
The husband knows he has threetesticles, though.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Yes, yeah, he knows.
But now he has to like if hesees his wife's friends, he's
going to be like why are theytittering?
Oh God, they know.
Speaker 2 (44:54):
Let me see if I can reflect back some of the
highlights and maybe put mystank on it a little bit.
So this film I think the thingsthat are really rising to the
surface from the analysis for meis really like a critique of
late 90s, although I think itlike.
It definitely has tendrils thatare still active today.
(45:14):
But specifically from this timecapsule from the late 90s, this
kind of conflation of genderexpression, specifically
masculinity and sexuality, as ifthe only way to be sort of a
real man and I'm putting quotesaround that is to have kind of
hyper-masculine characteristicsand interests and likes and to
(45:41):
also be heterosexual.
That constellation is necessaryand if any one of those things
is not true, then all of themare not true, right?
So the audio cassette thatHoward listens to that's trying
to help him reclaim hismasculinity, that you can't say,
(46:01):
the window treatments arefabulous.
You're not a real man if yousay that and therefore you are
also gay.
Therefore you are also gay.
It's like one domino and thewhole thing just falls down and
(46:24):
that kind of strict binary isfalse and hurtful.
It harms us, it harms peopleand it's very dangerous.
And I think it's very much bakedinto this, the movie in some
ways is trying to push backagainst it, but then doesn't,
because Howard is in fact gayand other people, namely the
former student, now actor know.
And so there's like this push me, pull me, which we see so often
with late 90s movies, wherelike, on the one hand, it's
(46:48):
about acceptance and god blessthese indiana townies and
howard's family who really rallyaround him.
Like it doesn't matter, we lovehim, we know who he is, it
doesn't matter if he's gay ornot.
And on the other hand, likethere's like a cosmological
reality that it's tapping intoabout what it means to be a man.
(47:11):
We also had like a little bitof a conversation about consent
and I think you were starting tosuggest that if it were a
heterosexual couple today, wewould push back against the lack
of consent in the kiss thathappens between the Tom Selleck
character and the Kevin Klinecharacter, and I think you were
starting to say that perhaps weaccept it because it was two men
(47:32):
and it was like the kind of thenovelty of it.
I disagree.
I actually think we still havea major problem with consent if
we are also meant to be kind ofexcitedly anticipating the
romance between two people.
Speaker 1 (47:46):
Shipping.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Shipping.
If we are shipping twocharacters, then we somehow
don't care about consent like asa culture, which is a problem.
The guy-girls name that as amajor problem in the culture.
What it means to be gay in thisculture, or I should even I
(48:13):
should say queer and like expandthat, like not just gay as in
homosexual, but queer as in notkind of cis, straight and
allosexual meaning, not asexual.
It does pass bechdel, which iscool.
Joan cusack is very funny withher physical comedy.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
She was nominated for an Oscar for this film.
Oh wow, that's cool, which thethings that I was reading about
it was saying like that justkind of shows you how slim the
Pickens were.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
In 97,.
Speaker 1 (48:42):
yeah, not that she didn't do a fantastic job.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
but Well, those are the big things that I heard.
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1 (48:52):
What this means to me .
Right right about my inabilityto read subtext and how that was
an early indicator that I wasneurodivergent, right.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
The other thing that I missed was, like when we put
this movie in conversation withother movies, right, so chasing
amy for you around, subtext, andaround taking people at their
word, especially about somethingabout their identity, which
both of these films suggest wecan't do, and also in
conversation with the birdcage,which there are things about the
birdcage that are reallybeautiful, that we see like real
(49:25):
love.
The most healthy romanticrelationship in the birdcage is
between the Nathan Lane andRobin Williams characters, but
also the person asking them togo back in the closet is their
son, and that's really messed up, as opposed to this film where
the person asking him to stay inthe closet is his boss, which
isn't okay, but at least it'snot like an intimate, it's not a
(49:48):
betrayal.
It's not a betrayal, right,yeah, it's not like a, you know,
an intimate.
It's not a betrayal.
It's not a betrayal, right,yeah.
The other thing that we talkedabout, I think a little bit is
sort of about minding our ownbusiness and sort of taking
people at their word, the prosand cons in that, the assets and
liabilities of doing that,trying to navigate, like how
much of it is your business ifyou see someone about to make a
(50:10):
huge mistake?
Speaker 1 (50:11):
that's going to hurt other people, right?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
Which I still don't have an answer for.
Speaker 2 (50:15):
Right, well, and also sort of like the politicking
gets very, very difficult.
And also like we talked a bitabout the idea that someone
could know something about methat I don't know about me and
who can know that?
Like that someone from adistance could know that.
And the suggestion again thiscomes back to the cosmological,
like essentialist, theessentialist argument that this
(50:37):
film seems to be making abouthomosexuality and masculinity
together.
That feels offensive.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
I will say to be fair , cameron Drake is not malicious
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
No, sure, sure, sure.
I don't think anybody'smalicious, no, and the movie
makers aren't either.
I just have a fundamentaldisagreement with them about the
essentialist nature of it, thatthey are suggesting that
necessarily the masculinitynecessarily goes with the
homosexuality, which they alsocounter with the casting of Tom
Selleck, but still seem to bekind of reifying with the action
(51:10):
of the film.
So, yeah, cool, I don't think Ineed to rewatch this one, but
still seemed to be kind ofreifying with the action of the
film.
So, yeah, cool, I don't think Ineed to rewatch this one, if I
even ever saw it.
But next week, actually, myfamily is going to visit Hawaii
to celebrate a big life cycleevent that we had, and so for
next week I am going to rewatchLilo and Stitch, which is the
film that introduced me toHawaiian culture.
(51:32):
So I want to take a closer lookat that and see, like, what it
got right and what it didn't,and we'll see how that goes.
So I'm kind of excited aboutthat.
I know people younger than meMoana like introduced them to
sort of Pacific Islander, butfor me it was Lilo and Stitch.
It was Lilo and Stitch Lookingforward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(51:55):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
(52:19):
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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