Welcome to Earth.
The 1996 Roland Emmerich-helmed film Independence Day was one of the touchstone movies for Emily's generation, so her flabber was absolutely gasted to learn Tracie had never seen it until a few years ago. Just in time for the 4th of July, Emily walks Tracie through what made this movie such a monumental hit in the U.S. and abroad, despite its jingoistic American exceptionalism and skin-deep application of science fiction storytelling tropes.
Both in 1996 and again in 2025, Emily appreciated feeling seen as an American Jew via the characters of David and Julius Levinson (played by Jeff Goldblum in his absolute prime and Judd Hirsch, respectively) and she loved the way German-born Emmerich celebrates America's diversity as our greatest strength. That celebration of diversity includes Emmerich's behind-the-scenes fight to have Will Smith in the lead role when the executives balked at a Black leading man.
But this mashup of disaster and sci-fi movies also appeals to some ugly stereotypes Americans believe about the rest of the world while refusing to ask any deeper questions about how aliens or people would react to enormous, world-changing events.
Release…me… by listening in to this episode!
Mentioned in this episode:
Space Opera by Catherynne Valente
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is an American story about how Americans figure
it out and Americans share itwith the rest of the world and
Americans are the best.
And like that's particularlyugly with the fact that these
aliens are trying to destroy themajor cities around the world,
except when it comes to, youknow, the places where we don't
(00:21):
imagine there are major citiesto you know the places where we
don't imagine there are majorcities.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
You know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about, and so do we
.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:43):
about stupid shit.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Hi, I'm Emily Guy-Burken andyou're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1996 Roland Emmerich filmIndependence Day with my sister,
(01:05):
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So Trace shocked the hell outof me to learn that you had not
seen this movie until like lastyear or something.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I think it was a little longer ago than last year
, but not much.
But tell me what you know about.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Independence Day yeah , I think it was pre little
longer ago than last year, butnot much.
But tell me what you know aboutIndependence Day, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think it was pre-COVID or maybe during COVID,
but it's definitely in the pastlike five years that I saw it
for the first time.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So I remember Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum, both
looking very attractive.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I remember aliens and a virus.
I remember aliens and a virusand that's how we get them,
because Americans are toxic andI remember so the scene when
(02:05):
Brent Spiner is like the doctorand he gets like the scientist
and he gets like slammed againstthe wall and then through his
voice the alien goes release meMuppets from Space, spoofs that.
So that scene when I finallysaw it, was sort of like a
validation of Muppet movie,which was hilarious and
delightful to me, like I'mfinally watching this cultural
(02:30):
touchstone and I'm like, oh,look, the Muppets.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Whereas the Muppets were hoping you'd go oh look,
Independence Day, IndependenceDay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, I'm a little backward about a lot of things,
so anyway, sometimes you put thealien before the horse.
What can I say?
What can I say?
Muppets are my touchstone, sothat's what I remember.
But tell me M aside from thefact that here we are, right in
front of the 4th of July, whyare we?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
talking about this film.
So this film came out in 1996.
I was 17 years old.
This was back when I saw atleast one movie a week in
theater.
I was an avid consumer of popculture and films specifically.
Just, really quickly, the factthat it's 96, that actually
makes a lot of sense to me.
Now, why I haven't seen it?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Because that was the middle of my college career, so
we were at very different kindof like very specific moments in
terms of consumption of popculture.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Anyway, carry on.
So, yeah, if there was acultural touchstone from like,
let's say, 2011, I would havemissed it because I was in the
midst of early parenthood and sotelevision from my college
years I missed.
I still consumed quite a lot ofmovies it was.
Also there was a huge marketingcampaign.
(03:51):
So this was a movie that wasnot to be missed among my peer
group and I was very excited tosee it.
It also was Will Smith, was thehottest thing out there and I
was very excited to see him inthis because he was at the
(04:16):
height of his fame, the heightof his charm, the height of his
line delivery, because he's veryfunny in this movie.
Line delivery, because he'svery funny in this movie.
So I was really excited to seethis movie and I remember that
summer 1996, I went to theKenyon Young Writers Program,
which was over the 4th of Julyweekend, and I am trying to
(04:38):
remember if I had seen it beforeI went or if we were talking
about it, that I was going tosee it afterwards.
But there was definitelydiscussion among the other young
writers about this movie.
So this was it was important tothose of us who were, you know,
around that age.
It was important to you know,those of us who were in high
school at the time and it washuge.
(05:00):
It was everywhere.
It was a very expensive movieto make and it was the biggest
movie of 1996.
It was a blockbuster and madehuge amounts of money both in
the United States andinternationally, which is kind
of incredible considering howAmerica-centric this movie is.
(05:22):
So on re-watching the film lastnight and I've seen it many
times since the thing thatreally struck me and there's
several aspects of it Now therewere a couple things that
bothered me, not necessarilywhen I saw it at 17, but as I
re-watched it as I got older, inmy 20s, as I was studying
cultural imperialism and thingslike that was the way that it's
(05:46):
used American exceptionalism andthere's kind of a double-edged
sword.
So some of the Americanexceptionalism is good and I
found out there's some behindthe scenes stuff with American
exceptionalism in that thestudio didn't want Will Smith as
the lead because they didn'twant a black actor yeah, I've
(06:08):
lost who it was that theyoffered it to, who read the
script and was like this isgarbage and didn't want it.
It was like Ethan Hawke orsomeone like that, but I might
be misremembering, but theywanted a white actor, so it
wasn't just Americanexceptionalism as the country a
white actor.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So it wasn't just american exceptionalism like, as
the country was explicitly likewhite nationalist americans.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well, but that's the thing.
So, within, like rolandemmerich, who is actually was
born in germany, so he'sgerman-american, which I also I
find interesting.
But the american exceptionalismis that this group of disparate
people, which is part of whatAmerica fuck yeah, we do is like
you know, we are this disparategroup of people and we work
(06:51):
together and we make it work ispart of the American
exceptionalism story we tellourselves.
So like there is thisdouble-edged sword of American
exceptionalism and nationalism.
And there was some of thatbehind the scenes as well,
because Roland Emmerich foughtfor Will Smith.
Oh, I see, I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So it was like corporate meddling, yes,
corporate meddling, that didn'twant Smith.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, I see that's one thing that was important to me
about this film.
The other thing that I wasamused by as a 17-year-old and
I'm now realizing I felt seen,without realizing how special it
was was feeling seen as anAmerican Jew because Jeff
(07:33):
Goldblum's character is Jewishand his father, who's played by
Judd Hirsch, is everybody'sJewish dad or grandpa, father or
uncle.
I read something last nightfrom a Jewish commentator saying
that Judd Hirsch's character isa Jewish stereotype, or cringy
Jewish stereotype, and I wasasking my husband afterwards I
(07:53):
was like have you seen itrecently?
He's like, because he didn'twant to watch it with me.
He's like not recently.
I was like does he seem like aJewish stereotype to you?
And I was describing a coupleof things.
He's like no, everyone's gotthat uncle.
I was like no, everyone's gotthat uncle.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I was like isn't that the definition?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
of a stereotype, but I feel like a stereotype is when
it's turned up to 11, whereasthis is not turned up to 11.
It just is Okay.
So you're saying it's arelatable character, not a
caricature.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I feel like Judd Hirsch is just being Judd Hirsch
Character, not a caricature,and considering the last 18
months of being an American Jew,that felt really good last
night watching this movie.
(08:51):
I hear that I hear that.
And then the other thing that Ifelt that was really
interesting watching this lastnight was recognizing how much
this film owed like, how much ofthe DNA of this film was
disaster movies.
Like how much of this the dnaof this film was, uh, disaster
movies.
Disaster movies have neverreally been much of my favorites
, but I remember watchingtowering inferno and the
poseidon adventure with dadgrowing up.
(09:13):
Yeah, he like dug those rightlike I feel like he showed us
poseidon adventure on purpose.
Yeah, there's something verythose share a, a DNA with a type
of haunted house slash, murdermystery slash there's only one
left kind of story that I alsoenjoy.
I think there's somethingspecific about the disaster
(09:34):
films, though, that like kind ofit provides that like, oh yeah,
I could survive, because yourelate with the hero and then
it's like it gives a certainamount of comfort because these
disasters are terrifying andthere's very little one can do
to actually survive.
You know, it's a lot about luck.
But then we put ourselves inthe role of this hero who then
(09:54):
survives and we're like oh yeah,I'll be all right.
It's like a comfort.
There's also this sense of then.
There are people who areself-sacrificing to help
everyone else of then there arepeople who are self-sacrificing
to help everyone else.
And then there are the peoplewho die because of bad luck, but
others are compassionatetowards them and we see we can
put ourselves in these humanmoments and say like I wouldn't
(10:16):
be the weasel, I would be thecompassionate person who is like
searching for survivors andhelping who I can and the ones
who can't make it.
I would stiff upper lip and bethere for the children.
You know like there's somethingvery like comforting and like I
would be the good ones.
Not Right.
It allows us to sort of strokeour own ego without having
(10:37):
actually to go through thetrauma.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
There's something about that,and so it's.
I feel like this is the first.
I don't know I might be wrong,but this marriage of disaster
movie and science fiction isreally interesting.
It is interesting.
(10:58):
I do not think it's the first.
I mean, aren't the like giantmonster movies kind of bad?
Yeah, I suppose that's true.
Like the not King Kong, butlike Godzilla, I feel like, and
like other.
But do we actually get to knowand care about the characters
who die in those.
I haven't seen them in longenough, but and like I've never
seen the original, like theoriginal Godzillas, I know the
Matthew Broderick version yeah,but that's also.
Roland Emmerich and it cameafter, but it was based on
(11:22):
something earlier right, butthat's interesting that it's
also rolling emmerich.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Anyway, sorry we are like we haven't even started the
synopsis yet.
I keep distracting you.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I'm a bad influence today so let me kind of remind
you what's going on with this.
I had forgotten.
I thought this movie was atight 90 minutes.
That's how I remembered,remembered it.
No, no, it's nearly three hours.
Are you serious?
It's like two hours and 42minutes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Oh wow, that's probably why it took me so long
to watch it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So the synopsis.
This time I'm going to dosomething a little bit different
because the way this movie isset up we are introduced to a
bunch of different groups ofcharacters who end up converging
on Area 51 in Nevada, and soI'm going to introduce the
different characters and thenkind of talk about in broad
(12:14):
strokes what happens.
So the characters are WillSmith is basically our
protagonist.
We don't meet him until like 20or 30 minutes into the movie,
but his name is Captain StephenHiller.
He is a Marine and fighterpilot.
He's a squadron leader with theBlack Knight Squadron stationed
at El Toro in California.
He wants to be an astronaut.
(12:37):
He is in a relationship with awoman named Jasmine who has a
little boy named Dylan, who isnot Steve's son.
But he is very serious aboutJasmine.
He's bought an engagement ringfor her.
But his friend Jimmy, who isplayed by Harry Connick Jr oh,
(12:57):
another very handsome man, sobeautiful Steve gets a rejection
from NASA.
Jimmy says you're never goingto get to fly the shuttle if you
marry a stripper, becausethat's what Jasmine does for a
living.
Then we meet President Thomas JWhitmore, who's played by Bill
Pullman.
He is a former fighter pilotand a Gulf War veteran.
(13:19):
He is married to MarilynWhitmore, who's played by Mary
McDonnell.
So the president is in theWhite House.
The first lady is in LosAngeles for some sort of
conference.
When we meet them they're onthe phone talking about how
she's heading home after theconference.
At a luncheon they have a smallchild, patricia, played by Mae
(13:44):
Whitman.
So she's like about seven.
I mean very little girl.
So that's the first family.
Then, also in the White House,is Constance Spano, who is the
director of communications.
So she's got the CarolynLevitt's job.
Now Connie's ex-husband isDavid Levinson, played by Jeff
(14:08):
Goldblum.
Wait, who's Connie, connie,constance, the, oh, the
communications, yeah, okay,david Levinson, played by Jeff
Goldblum.
He's MIT educated and he's asatellite engineer and tech
expert, but he works for a cablecompany in New York City.
His father is Julius Levinson,played by Judd Hirsch.
(14:29):
So there are multiple people wemeet at David's workplace as
well.
There are several other peoplein the government that I kind of
skipped over.
There's General William Gray,who's the Commandant of the
United States Marine Corps.
He's played by Robert Lagia.
There is the Secretary ofDefense and former CIA Director,
(14:55):
albert Nimzicki, played byJames Rebhorn.
There is Major Mitchell, who isfrom the US Air Force.
He's a commanding officer atArea 51.
We meet him later on, but he'splayed by Adam Baldwin.
And we also meet in Californiaan alcoholic former fighter
pilot named Russell Case, playedby Randy Quaid, who I think is
(15:17):
just being himself.
He is a crop duster.
When we first meet him he'sdusting the wrong field.
He has three children namedMiguel, alicia and Troy, and I
think that's the characters.
So characters are based in NewYork City, washington DC and Los
(15:40):
Angeles.
So as the film begins there's ashadow over the moon, over where
the American flag is plantedfrom the moon, landing in 69.
There's a giant ship comingtowards Earth.
Things break off from it andenormous ships come over and
(16:01):
settle over major cities allover the world, including Los
Angeles, new York and DC.
They start scrambling cablesignals.
David Jeff Goldblum is lookingat like the signal that's
scrambling it and he's like, oh,if we just wait seven hours
it'll clear up.
Because he realizes the signalis like binary and it's a
(16:25):
countdown.
And then like finally looks atwhat the president is saying in
the intelligence briefings, he'slike, oh no, that's not a
countdown until it goes away,it's a countdown until
destruction.
So he tries to call his ex-wife,connie.
It turns out that they divorcedbecause he felt like she was
(16:46):
spending too much time on herpolitical career.
And she hangs up on him becauseshe refuses to listen to him,
because he's saying you have toget out of the White House.
And she's like, oh, this oldsaw he goes to get his father
because he doesn't drive.
You see Jeff Goldblum goeverywhere on a bike, so he goes
to get his father, who has acar, and they drive down to DC.
So this obviously takes foreverand they only have seven hours
(17:11):
and basically are able to.
At the he became president,they got into a fistfight
because he accused him of havingan affair with Connie.
So he's able to convince himthis is a countdown and they're
(17:36):
able to take Marine One, thehelicopter out and then get to
Air Force One.
So meanwhile New York is beingdestroyed.
We see several of David'sco-workers getting killed In Los
(17:57):
Angeles.
Steve Hiller, will Smith, hasbeen called to the Army base or
the Marine base.
Rather, he has told Jasmine hey, just in case, why don't you
and Dylan pack up a few thingsand come to the base?
You know, just to be safe, up afew things and come to the base
(18:17):
, you know, just to be safe, andshe has gone into her workplace
just to pick up her check.
She's talked into working, soshe's running behind and she
sees, you know, that people arelike gathering on rooftops.
So Jasmine and her son Dylanare stuck in traffic trying to
(18:43):
get out.
When the destruction comes.
They're in this like tunnel andlike balls of fire are coming.
They have their dog with themand there's this like locked
door for like some sort ofaccess panel.
She manages to kick the dooropen, gets in and like calls the
(19:07):
dog who comes running and jumpsin with the balls of fire
behind him.
It was like why would the firenot go in there?
It's not, there's oxygen.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Don't bother me with physics here, I also.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I love animals.
I do, and like I care whetheror not Boomer the dog lives, I
do.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But what about all the people?
That's not how movies work, Em.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
All those people are dying and you want me to carry
about the golden retriever?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
that is how movies work anyway.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So jasmine, dylan and boomer make it.
Meanwhile, hiller and the restof the black knight squadron are
sent to shoot at the giant shipover Los Angeles.
It does nothing because theyhave shields.
Little fighter pilots from thegiant ship come after them and
(20:03):
all of the squadron are takendown, except for Hiller, who
manages to shake all of themexcept for one.
He is able to eject and destroyboth his and the other ship and
pulls the alien out.
He has the welcome to Earthline before he punches it and
then, like, wraps it up in hisparachute and is dragging it
(20:25):
through the desert.
So meanwhile, jasmine has founda municipal truck, found the
keys in the visor, which is justhave them be in the ignition.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
That's how movies work.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, but it was abandoned.
It would make sense if it wasabandoned in the ignition.
But you know what?
Okay, roland, it's fine.
It's fine, roland, it's fine,I'll give you that.
Anyway.
So it's this huge municipaltruck and she's going around and
gathering whatever survivorsshe can find.
She finds the first lady whohas been very, very badly
(21:04):
injured.
Oh, wow.
So she is heading to El Torobase to try to get to Steve.
To try to get to Steve, steve,in the desert, comes across the
caravan of RVs which includesRandy Quaid's Russell Case
because that's where he and hiskids live among a whole bunch of
other people.
And he says I saw a base as Iwas flying over.
(21:28):
They're like it's not on themap.
He's like I know it's there andso they take him there.
While on Air Force One there's alarge argument between the
president and a bunch of otherpeople and Julius says, like
what about Area 51?
And the president's like Iassure you, there's no Area 51.
And Nismiki, who is the formerCIA head and the current
(21:50):
Secretary of Defense and thehuman antagonist, is like well,
and so they come to area 51where they meet brent spiners,
dr okun, who is just dr noonieand sing from star trek, the
next generation, totally.
(22:11):
So he shows them they have acrash-landed vehicle from the
50s, one of their little fighterpilot spaceships, and they have
three alien bodies on ice.
And they're like you have tohave clearance.
And he's got, you know, thiswhole caravan of RVs.
(22:34):
He's in the back of a pickuptruck.
He's like, oh, you wantclearance, I'll show you
clearance.
And he, like, opens up theparachute and shows him the
alien body.
And they're like, whoa, okay,let him in.
And so that leads to the scenethat you remember the release me
because they start trying tooperate on it and it's not dead
and causes all kinds of havocand has some sort of like
(22:57):
psychic yes.
Because, they determined.
It doesn't have any kind ofvocal cords, so the only way it
can possibly communicate istelepathically.
So it does something to BrentSpiner, dr Okun, and then it
beams its thoughts to thepresident and tells him
basically, basically, this iswhat we do.
(23:18):
We're locusts, y'all are introuble, yeah.
So they decide to try to nukethe next ship that is over
Houston, because that's the onlypossible way to just destroy it
.
That doesn't work.
And they've nuked Houston.
Just destroy it.
That doesn't work.
And they've nuked Houston.
David, who is very idealistic,is like freaking out because,
(23:42):
like you know what's the point,let's just destroy the planet
and they won't want it anymore.
His father finds him and saysyou know, we all lose our faith
sometimes.
You know, I haven't spoken toGod since your mother died.
And he says something thatgives David the idea like, oh,
what if we give them a computervirus and then we can bring down
the shields?
Steve learns that the El Torobase has been destroyed.
(24:02):
He steals a helicopter to golook for Jasmine, finds her,
brings everyone back.
The First Lady lives longenough to see the president and
her daughter and then dies.
Lives long enough to see thepresident and her daughter and
then dies and Goldblum says orDavid says, let's take the old
ship to the mothership, I cangive it a computer virus that'll
take down the shields and thenwe can use fighter pilots to
(24:26):
destroy the ships.
And then you know, victory, allgood stuff.
Nismith's Nismicky the weasel islike you know, this is terrible
.
You've made so many mistakes.
This is the CIA guy, the CIAslash Secretary of Defense, and
the president fires him and saysyeah, let's go ahead with this,
but we're gonna need morepilots.
(24:47):
So they like all right, we needas many pilots as possible and
they coordinate across the world.
They have to use Morse codepossible and they coordinate
across the world.
They have to use Morse code toreach out to everyone across the
world because the aliens areusing their satellites and
they're able to do that.
Steve and Jasmine get marriedbefore they go.
(25:08):
Connie tries to convince Davidthat he doesn't have to go
because she's like great, nowhe's ambitious.
And we see Russell sober up andsay okay, I'm gonna do this, be
a fighter pilot.
Steve and David are able to getto the mothership.
They upload the virus noproblem.
(25:30):
Like yeah, I have to try threetimes to get my.
Get a thumb drive in.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Right or to like connect to Instagram and
Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
But yeah, bluetooth is not able to connect ever on
the first try.
Also, like aliens, write incomputer languages that David
knows.
Oh, he's brilliant, he went toMIT.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
They use C++.
Obviously, David knows.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Well, he's brilliant, he went to MIT.
They use C++, obviously, butthey're stuck, they can't get
out.
So they have a nuclear missileand 30 seconds to get out.
So they're like, okay, we'llset that off.
And they know they're going todie.
So they set that off.
And then they're unstuck andthey're like, oh, maybe we can
get out.
And so they're able to justbarely make it out.
The fighter pilots are tryingto destroy the ships, but even
(26:18):
with the shields down they'renot making enough of a
difference until russell caseflies up into the ship as it is
opening to put out its likelaser beam, huge death star
weapon right, like from the memewith the yeah, which brings it
down, destroys it, and so we seerejoicing across the world,
(26:39):
including really offensive, likeafrican children wearing very
little and holding spearsrejoicing, and I mean it's just
awful.
I thought there were ships aboveall, like lots of major cities
around the world.
Yeah, but only one had,whatever the guy's name was, go
(27:00):
up into its belly.
No, they say.
Now we know what does it?
So share around the world.
Share around the world whatthey need to do.
So it's a repeatable disasterfor the.
It's a repeatable thing.
Yes, all right.
So then they go out to thedesert to.
They're like, okay, we need togo get hillar and david and they
find them.
They're looking fine walkingout of the desert, like that is.
(27:27):
I remember going to erica'shouse and we watched it, we
rewound and watched and rewoundand watched the two of them
walking in the desert in thoseflight suits.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I think like 10 minutes worth, and apparently we
are now mapping Emily's eroticmap.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Well, I was texting Tracy last night going like 1996
era, Jeff Goldblum is my sexualorientation.
Apparently we have reached theend of it.
The one thing I glossed overwas Bill Pullman, the president,
saying you know, today wecelebrate our independence.
You know, it is fitting that itis July 4th, American
independence, but it will be theworld's independence.
(28:03):
Oh, we are all Americans now.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
All right, all right.
Where are we going to startwith it?
I mean, are we going to startwith American exceptionalism,
since we just said that?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I want to start in the good place.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Rather than in We'll make it a sandwich, let's make
it a shit sandwich.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
We'll put the shit in the middle.
I don't want to put that.
Let's start with the.
Let's not lead with that.
Yeah, let's start with themarble rye that I really enjoy,
Okay, Okay, not lead with that.
Yeah, let's start with themarble rye that I really enjoy,
okay, okay.
So, feeling seen as american jewbecause I so enjoyed judd
hirsch as julius levinson, I soenjoyed the relationship between
david and julius.
(28:46):
So when we meet them, they'replaying chess in the park in New
York City and Julius is likeharanguing David in that like
very particular Jewish parent toson or child way, where he's
like you're still wearing yourwedding ring, what it's been
four years since the divorce,and David's like it's been three
(29:07):
.
It's like it's not healthy.
And David's like you're smoking.
That's what's not healthy, Likeit's just, it is so familiar
and so delightful.
And I'm like afterwards I'mlike is Roland Emmerich Jewish?
Because he wrote it along withthe producer Devlin, Dean Devlin
?
And no, Emmerich is not Jewish.
(29:29):
Dean Devlin has a Jewish fatherand a Filipino mother and
apparently he based the JuddHirsch's character on his uncle.
And so I was like, okay, allright, that's where this is
coming from.
All right, All right.
Like this is from life, clearly.
And then the thing that I alsoreally loved and I think this is
(29:51):
also partially coming fromHirsch and Goldblum themselves
Jeff Goldblum gets up becausethey're playing chess and
Goldblum wins.
Like completely surprisingHirsch and this is checkmate
Pops he gets up and he goes overand he puts his arms around his
father and he gives him a bigkiss on the cheek and he's all
(30:13):
right, I'll see you later, pops,I love you.
And that like the, just theaffection that is so natural and
unashamed unashamed yes, that'sexactly the word which we do
not see very often in popculture between two grown men,
(30:35):
even father and son, and in thebiggest film of 1996, the
cultural touchstone of the 90s.
And then the fact that whenDavid is freaking out, so we see
multiple times like so theother thing that David is giving
his father a hard time about ishe has coffee in a styrofoam
(30:57):
cup.
He's like do you know how longit takes for these to decompose?
And David is like looking atthe chessboard and his father
says I'm decomposing whileyou're deciding.
They're having that kind of backand forth, the banter, yeah and
so.
And he's constantly like youknow, there's a recycling bin
right here and blah, blah, blah,blah.
And meanwhile there's so muchproduct placement and it's like
(31:17):
a Fruitopia thing which I'm like.
Oh my God, do you rememberFruitopia?
I don't.
Was that a soda or something?
It was a juice drink.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
If you see it, you'll be like, yeah, I recognize it,
yeah, yeah, and then Coke canseverywhere and stuff like that
anyway.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So like you constantly see him like, and
when he says he's, he's going,when he's talking to connie and
she's like now, you're ambitious.
He says, well, I've always beentrying to save the planet.
So when he's freaking out afterthey, they nuke houston, and
he's just like his dad's, likewhat are you doing?
He's like I'm making a mess,I'm destroying everything.
Because you know, like if we,if we mess up the planet, maybe
(31:55):
they don't want it.
And his father says to him likewe all lose faith sometimes.
You know, I haven't spoken toGod since your mother died.
Yeah, you said that in yoursynopsis.
That really struck me, becausethe fact that his father
understands what David's faithis and recognizes that it is
(32:17):
just as real and just asmeaningful as his own faith in
God, in the Torah, that feelsvery Jewish too.
And then, as David is leavingto get on the spaceship, he
gives Julius his kippah andTorah.
(32:37):
Torah, yeah, like a book, aTanakh Like a book, yeah, like a
Tanakh, a Tanakh.
And it says, just in case.
And there's a point where Area51 is deep underground and they
get all Wait, sorry, juliusgives it to David, or David
gives it to Julius.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
No, david gives it to david.
No, david gives it to julius.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
He has okay, uh-huh, okay.
There's no explanation of howhe has it, why he has it.
I mean it doesn't make sense,but whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, area 51 is deepunderground.
They have gotten all the peoplein the rvs like down and so
julius has put the keep on andhe started praying and he brings
people around.
He's like come around, comearoundah on and he started
praying and he brings peoplearound.
(33:15):
He's like come around, comearound.
And he's just started prayingand like he's probably the only
Jew there.
I mean, really, what are theodds?
And Nizmiki the weasel, like,comes to sit down and Julius has
started praying and Nizmikisays but I'm not Jewish.
And Julius says nobody'sperfect.
Now another one feels so seen.
(33:39):
So like all of that it's justlovely to have in a major motion
picture, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That wasn't telling a Jewish story, that wasn't
telling a Jewish story.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You know, yeah, yeah, and that's part of the nice
part of American exceptionalism,because Hezbollah asked for
parts of this film to be cut orthe film to be banned or
boycotted, because there arepoints where they're reaching
out to people internationally,where you see camps with Israeli
(34:12):
flags and Palestinian flagswhere they're working together,
oh, wow.
And then they also were likeyou know, it's propaganda that a
Jewish scientist figures it out.
They said that and JeffGoldblum responded like clearly
you're not paying attention tothe film, because it's like
people working together figureit out.
Right, because it's like peopleworking together figure it out.
(34:35):
And that is part of what's theidealism, the positive side, the
positive side, the idealism ofAmerican exceptionalism Right,
the idea that our diversity isour strength.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes, which we seem to have forgotten lately.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, there's a scene that I remember really sticking
with me as a 17-year-old whenJasmine has found the First Lady
, she doesn't say anything toher about having recognized her
but she's, like you know, takingcare of her, being very kind to
her as best she can in thiswasteland, and she brings her
son over, like they're talking alittle bit.
(35:08):
And she brings her son over andsays Dylan, come meet the First
Lady.
And so Marilyn says I didn'trealize you'd recognized me.
And Jasmine says Dylan, comemeet the first lady.
And so Marilyn says I didn'trealize you'd recognized me.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And Jasmine says well , I didn't make a big deal of it
.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So Marilyn asks what do you do for a living?
She says I'm a dancer.
She's like, oh, ballet.
She says no, exotic.
And the first lady says oh, I'msorry.
And Jasmine says I'm not, Imake a good living.
Says I'm not, I make a goodliving, it's good money.
I have my own house and what Ido for my like I'll do anything
for my son and he's worth it.
And the first lady has thislike kind of look of like I
(35:56):
don't know.
It's this very interestingconversation between these two
women of very different socialclasses and that is another
aspect of like what I feel likeRoland Emmerich was trying to
say.
He was trying to make it clearthat NASA was wrong and Harry
Connick Jr's character wascorrect when saying, like you
know, you're not going to beable to fly the shuttle if
you're married to a stripper.
Like I think that is a correctassessment, that nasa would not
(36:17):
do that right.
But emmerich is judging nasafor that.
And emmerich is judging nasafor it and making it clear like
that jasmine has nothing to beashamed of and the first lady
was wrong.
And does she come to see that?
Yeah, so, and that's anotheraspect of it.
Part of American exceptionalismis like you can make your way in
(36:39):
whatever way works for you, andthat Jasmine is, in a lot of
ways, the like, compassionateheart of this film, because you
see her at every point doingwhatever she can to take care of
the people around her,including another one of the
dancers.
She has a conversation with adancer who wants to go greet the
aliens and she's like pleasedon't.
I'm really I got a bad feelingabout this.
(37:00):
Please get out of town.
And you know she's the one who,like she, finds this truck and
instead of using it just to getout, she's trying to find other
survivors, gathering survivors.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, so that's lovely.
That's lovely.
On the other hand, this is anAmerican story about how
Americans figure it out andAmericans share it with the rest
of the world.
And Americans are the best.
Right.
We turn everyone into Americans,yes, especially with the
Independence Day and the Fourthof July thing this day on the
(37:31):
4th of July thing and likethat's particularly ugly with
the fact that these aliens aretrying to destroy the major
cities around the world, exceptwhen it comes to, you know, the
places where we don't imagine.
There are major cities when weAmericans don't imagine.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
There's really thriving, beautiful major cities
.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, right, right and that's Ew.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I didn't see that as a 17-year-old Like.
I remember being like a littlebit with the images of like I
thought it was cities when yousee like the very stereotypical
tribe, the tribal yeah I'mputting quotes around that yeah
but I didn't have the ability toarticulate that yeah, but it's
(38:26):
also there are, just as were,even more brilliant analysts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all over the world, all over the
world, All over the world, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So you know, why is it all Americans Like?
Why are we not coordinatingwith other people throughout all
of this, Right, right?
And so that kind of brings me alittle bit to one thing that
actually Roger Ebert brought upin his review of it.
This is very skin deep sciencefiction, and part of that is
(38:57):
because it's a disaster movie,but it doesn't ask deep
questions.
It's a video game sciencefiction.
It's like oh, it's bad guys,let's get rid of them, but it
doesn't ask all right.
So if this is what they do,what's their original planet
like?
How do they live?
Why are they doing this their?
Why all those things?
Why did they send somethinghere in the 50s?
(39:18):
If they have telepathy, whatdoes their pacifists do, Are
they?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
And I think what you're saying here about this
and the skin-deep sciencefiction is that it didn't even
ask the what-if.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It just said we need, let's make it an alien and
didn't go any further.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
There wasn't, there's no, there are no what yeah yeah
, and even like it doesn't evenreally ask like the human, what
ifs.
Yeah, I mean it does a littlewith the people who are like I'm
gonna go greet the aliens yeah,I mean, there's a teensy bit of
that like how would peoplereact to this?
and like there's a teensy bit ofthat Like how would people
react to this?
And like there's a teensy bitof like.
I read this great book calledSpace Opera by Kat Valenti,
(40:17):
where, basically, to determineif a new species is discovered
and where the new species humansare, you have to compete in a
singing competition, because artis how you determine it,
Because art is how you determineit.
And so, since David Bowie,Prince, and like several others
are dead, there's the characterDavid Bowie, Prince, Freddie
Mercury are dead the characterhas to compete and one of the
things that it says is, like youknow, upon meeting new alien,
(40:40):
people generally fall into oneof two categories they want to
kill it or fuck it.
Okay, and I'm like, yeah, yeah,okay, yeah, that's about right.
Even that, like I was noticing,like after Jimmy dies, Harry
Connick Jr's character dies.
There's a moment where WillSmith goes no, Jimmy, and then
(41:01):
he's, like you know, fightingfor his life, but then he's like
dragging the alien through thedesert, quipping, and it's
hilarious, he's like you knowlike I'm not mad.
You know this is supposed to bemy weekend off and what the hell
is that smell and it'shilarious.
But at the same time he doesn'tknow what's happening with
Jasmine and the little boy hethinks of as his son.
(41:22):
His best friend is dead, as ishis entire squadron.
It's also kind of like WillSmith's schtick, exactly, but
that to me it's a movie, youknow, like that to me, takes me
out of the story and tells me,yeah, it breaks the illusion for
you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, I'm watching a movie.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I'm not seeing a story of how humans would handle
this.
Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that we are running outof time and I want to make sure
you get to the things that youwant to get to.
So do you want to come backaround to the marriage of
disaster movies and sciencefiction at all?
I think that combination ofdisaster movie and science
(41:59):
fiction is really an interestingI think it's an interesting
genre combination because itseems like a natural fit in a
lot of ways, but I think that ithas the problem of being skin
deep.
I think that's exactly right.
I was just thinking that it sortof necessitates the skin deep
(42:20):
because in order to get thetrappings of the disaster film,
we don't have time to spend.
We don't have, like the realestate, if you will, the airtime
, real estate to spend on thewhat-ifs that make science
fiction more than skin deep.
And that's why, when you get tothe oh, we'll give the, the
computer, a virus, like.
It has to be that easy, it hasto be that quick, because
(42:41):
otherwise you're gonna have,instead of a three-hour movie,
you're gonna have a seven-hourmovie.
Right, even with that it was athree-hour movie, exactly right.
Even with super easy likekilling the big bad was actually
not that hard once you figuredout how to do it yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
If there was one other thingthat you do, do we need to
circle back to?
Oh just the.
I do find it really interestingthat Roland Emmerich is German,
(43:05):
american and was born inGermany and this is such an
America fuck yeah.
Movie.
I mean that makes a certainamount of sense.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
It's like the zeal of the convert.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, and there's the zeal of the convert.
There's also he's German,american which I can remember
when I spent six months inFrance with a host mother who
was just barely old enough toremember World War II and she at
one point asked me what Ithought of Germans.
Where she was talking about herbest friend was British and
they fought like cats and dogsbut had this deep affection for
(43:38):
each other.
And she said that's how shefelt about the English is that
they bickered but they lovedeach other.
Where she was very, very politewith Germans but did not trust
them because of her experienceremembering World War II, and I
told her I felt bad, I felt verybad for Germans my age and
anyone who was born after WorldWar II, and she's like, really,
and I was like, well, you know,you live with this legacy that
(44:01):
you have no control over, you'reborn into and it's so horrific.
So I feel like Emmerich, whowas born after World War II.
It would be very appealing tothink of that American
exceptionalism where you canremake yourself.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
It would be a very appealing kind of sensation to
want to take on.
I can see that that makes sense.
Let me see if I can reflectback quickly some of the
highlights that we talked aboutin this movie.
There was a lot actually thatwe talked about here, so in no
particular order.
In fact I'll start with themost recent is sort of like you
named, a certain skin deepscience fiction in this film
(44:45):
that like kind of puts aliens inthe role of bad guys but
doesn't actually the deepwhat-if questions that make
science fiction reallyinteresting and that we agreed,
that we seem to have a consensusthat that actually is
necessitated by the fact thatthis is a science fiction
disaster mashup.
Science fiction disaster filmmashup.
It's not pure science fiction,it's science fiction as disaster
(45:08):
film and there just isn't roomin the story for the deeper kind
of what ifs and iterating ofscience fiction at its core.
That asks these interestingquestions, these deep, deep
questions.
(45:31):
The American exceptionalism inthis film, both what is good
about it insofar as, like ourdiversity is our strength, and
like a whole bunch of misfit,disparate people pulling
together for the greater goodand that sort of that mythos of
America that is remainsappealing, and certainly we
understand, how theGerman-American writer-director
would have latched onto thatpotentially, especially given
(45:52):
his German heritage that youjust talked about and sort of
the legacy of Nazism in hishistory, to try and like rebuild
oneself and remake oneself, notbased on even one's profession
but just one's like moralcharacter, as epitomized by
Jasmine, the exotic dancer whois the emotional heart of this
(46:14):
film.
But there's also an Americanexceptionalism which is just
kind of jingoism, which isdoesn't even see people in the
rest of the planet as people.
But there's no sense that thereare scientists in China or in
Turkey or in Bogota or in Lagoswho could have helped?
(46:34):
Or Mozambique.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah, there's no sense that there are brilliant
minds, brilliant humans aroundthe world.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
It's just missing and there's also just straight up
up like racist images of theselike stereotypical African
tribal people celebrating thedestruction of the aliens, which
is kind of icky because we havethis strong relationship in a
(47:15):
very thick Jewish accent betweenJulius and David that kind of
recognizes different ways ofbeing faithful.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
That sort of says to someone like you're not Jewish,
Well, nobody's perfect.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
You know that just is kind of delightful and like
feels like you're in on the joke.
I think is sort of what I heardthere and also within that Like
feels like you're in on the joke, I think is sort of what I
heard there and also within that, which is not necessarily
Jewish explicitly but isbeautiful the relationship
between father and son, thisunashamed affection, including
physical affection, which wenever get or almost never get
between two grown men who arepresumably straight in
(47:47):
mainstream media, especially notin the mid 90s and the fact
that this was in thisblockbuster like hugely
expensive and highly promotedfilm that everyone was talking
about in 1996 feels reallyspecial.
Let me see, I think that thoseare the main things that we
talked about.
(48:07):
I mean, I think on the Jewishquestion there was a little bit
of conversation about like isJudd Hirsch's character a
stereotype in a negative sense?
And we kind of made thedistinction between being a
character that reads as true,useful, not universal, versus
being a caricature whichexaggerates to humorous extent,
like different components Interms of this.
(48:30):
Let me just come back reallyquickly to the skin deep science
fiction.
That also led to a sense thatthe solution was like really
freaking easy because the aliensapparently code in linux or c++
or something else that thatjeff goldblum's character, david
, would know, you know, eventhough they don't like, have
mouths or vocal cords and andcommunicate via telepathy they
(48:54):
obviously code inthe language that Jeff Goldblum
can speak.
I mean, coding is universal, ofcourse.
Yeah, clearly I missed and thenwe really need to wrap up is
the fact that smith's shtick inthe desert was hilarious but
(49:15):
actually broke the illusion foryou because it did not feel
truthful, it did not feelplausible for a man who had just
been through what he'd beenthrough.
Yes, yeah, and there were othermoments like that, like the
fireballs in the in the tunnel,damn dog.
I mean like, yeah, I'm glad thedog lived, but right, but it
broke the illusion.
It made you remember you're ina movie.
(49:35):
Yes, very much so, anything Iforgot.
And then we need to say goodbye.
I still can't believe you.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
You didn't see it until you're in your 40s until a
few years ago and it was avalidation of a muppet movie for
me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah, yep.
So next time, what are youbringing me?
Pretty sure I'm bringing youweird science next time.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Ooh, I think that's not going to be a good one.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I'm really worried about how that's going to go.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I don't think that's going to hold up.
I haven't rewatched it yet, butlike I do not have high hopes
for this one.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
All right, we'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
You can support us at our Patreon.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive
review so others can find usand, of course, share the show
with your people.
Thanks for listening Our thememusic is Professor.
Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod fromincompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(50:46):
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And shouldn't you know?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
what's in your head.
This is an American story about how Americans figure
it out and Americans share itwith the rest of the world and
Americans are the best.
And like that's particularlyugly with the fact that these
aliens are trying to destroy themajor cities around the world,
except when it comes to, youknow, the places where we don't
(00:21):
imagine there are major citiesto you know the places where we
don't imagine there are majorcities.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture, what others mightdeem stupid shit?
You know matters.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about, and so do we
.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:43):
about stupid shit.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Hi, I'm Emily Guy-Burken andyou're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1996 Roland Emmerich filmIndependence Day with my sister,
(01:05):
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So Trace shocked the hell outof me to learn that you had not
seen this movie until like lastyear or something.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
I think it was a little longer ago than last year
, but not much.
But tell me what you know about.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Independence Day yeah , I think it was pre little
longer ago than last year, butnot much.
But tell me what you know aboutIndependence Day, yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I think it was pre-COVID or maybe during COVID,
but it's definitely in the pastlike five years that I saw it
for the first time.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So I remember Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum, both
looking very attractive.
Oh my God.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I remember aliens and a virus.
I remember aliens and a virusand that's how we get them,
because Americans are toxic andI remember so the scene when
(02:05):
Brent Spiner is like the doctorand he gets like the scientist
and he gets like slammed againstthe wall and then through his
voice the alien goes release meMuppets from Space, spoofs that.
So that scene when I finallysaw it, was sort of like a
validation of Muppet movie,which was hilarious and
delightful to me, like I'mfinally watching this cultural
(02:30):
touchstone and I'm like, oh,look, the Muppets.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Whereas the Muppets were hoping you'd go oh look,
Independence Day, IndependenceDay, yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Well, I'm a little backward about a lot of things,
so anyway, sometimes you put thealien before the horse.
What can I say?
What can I say?
Muppets are my touchstone, sothat's what I remember.
But tell me M aside from thefact that here we are, right in
front of the 4th of July, whyare we?
Speaker 1 (03:01):
talking about this film.
So this film came out in 1996.
I was 17 years old.
This was back when I saw atleast one movie a week in
theater.
I was an avid consumer of popculture and films specifically.
Just, really quickly, the factthat it's 96, that actually
makes a lot of sense to me.
Now, why I haven't seen it?
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Because that was the middle of my college career, so
we were at very different kindof like very specific moments in
terms of consumption of popculture.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Anyway, carry on.
So, yeah, if there was acultural touchstone from like,
let's say, 2011, I would havemissed it because I was in the
midst of early parenthood and sotelevision from my college
years I missed.
I still consumed quite a lot ofmovies it was.
Also there was a huge marketingcampaign.
(03:51):
So this was a movie that wasnot to be missed among my peer
group and I was very excited tosee it.
It also was Will Smith, was thehottest thing out there and I
was very excited to see him inthis because he was at the
(04:16):
height of his fame, the heightof his charm, the height of his
line delivery, because he's veryfunny in this movie.
Line delivery, because he'svery funny in this movie.
So I was really excited to seethis movie and I remember that
summer 1996, I went to theKenyon Young Writers Program,
which was over the 4th of Julyweekend, and I am trying to
(04:38):
remember if I had seen it beforeI went or if we were talking
about it, that I was going tosee it afterwards.
But there was definitelydiscussion among the other young
writers about this movie.
So this was it was important tothose of us who were, you know,
around that age.
It was important to you know,those of us who were in high
school at the time and it washuge.
(05:00):
It was everywhere.
It was a very expensive movieto make and it was the biggest
movie of 1996.
It was a blockbuster and madehuge amounts of money both in
the United States andinternationally, which is kind
of incredible considering howAmerica-centric this movie is.
(05:22):
So on re-watching the film lastnight and I've seen it many
times since the thing thatreally struck me and there's
several aspects of it Now therewere a couple things that
bothered me, not necessarilywhen I saw it at 17, but as I
re-watched it as I got older, inmy 20s, as I was studying
cultural imperialism and thingslike that was the way that it's
(05:46):
used American exceptionalism andthere's kind of a double-edged
sword.
So some of the Americanexceptionalism is good and I
found out there's some behindthe scenes stuff with American
exceptionalism in that thestudio didn't want Will Smith as
the lead because they didn'twant a black actor yeah, I've
(06:08):
lost who it was that theyoffered it to, who read the
script and was like this isgarbage and didn't want it.
It was like Ethan Hawke orsomeone like that, but I might
be misremembering, but theywanted a white actor, so it
wasn't just Americanexceptionalism as the country a
white actor.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
So it wasn't just american exceptionalism like, as
the country was explicitly likewhite nationalist americans.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Well, but that's the thing.
So, within, like rolandemmerich, who is actually was
born in germany, so he'sgerman-american, which I also I
find interesting.
But the american exceptionalismis that this group of disparate
people, which is part of whatAmerica fuck yeah, we do is like
you know, we are this disparategroup of people and we work
(06:51):
together and we make it work ispart of the American
exceptionalism story we tellourselves.
So like there is thisdouble-edged sword of American
exceptionalism and nationalism.
And there was some of thatbehind the scenes as well,
because Roland Emmerich foughtfor Will Smith.
Oh, I see, I see, I see.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
So it was like corporate meddling, yes,
corporate meddling, that didn'twant Smith.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yes, I see that's one thing that was important to me
about this film.
The other thing that I wasamused by as a 17-year-old and
I'm now realizing I felt seen,without realizing how special it
was was feeling seen as anAmerican Jew because Jeff
(07:33):
Goldblum's character is Jewishand his father, who's played by
Judd Hirsch, is everybody'sJewish dad or grandpa, father or
uncle.
I read something last nightfrom a Jewish commentator saying
that Judd Hirsch's character isa Jewish stereotype, or cringy
Jewish stereotype, and I wasasking my husband afterwards I
(07:53):
was like have you seen itrecently?
He's like, because he didn'twant to watch it with me.
He's like not recently.
I was like does he seem like aJewish stereotype to you?
And I was describing a coupleof things.
He's like no, everyone's gotthat uncle.
I was like no, everyone's gotthat uncle.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I was like isn't that the definition?
Speaker 1 (08:09):
of a stereotype, but I feel like a stereotype is when
it's turned up to 11, whereasthis is not turned up to 11.
It just is Okay.
So you're saying it's arelatable character, not a
caricature.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yes exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
I feel like Judd Hirsch is just being Judd Hirsch
Character, not a caricature,and considering the last 18
months of being an American Jew,that felt really good last
night watching this movie.
(08:51):
I hear that I hear that.
And then the other thing that Ifelt that was really
interesting watching this lastnight was recognizing how much
this film owed like, how much ofthe DNA of this film was
disaster movies.
Like how much of this the dnaof this film was, uh, disaster
movies.
Disaster movies have neverreally been much of my favorites
, but I remember watchingtowering inferno and the
poseidon adventure with dadgrowing up.
(09:13):
Yeah, he like dug those rightlike I feel like he showed us
poseidon adventure on purpose.
Yeah, there's something verythose share a, a DNA with a type
of haunted house slash, murdermystery slash there's only one
left kind of story that I alsoenjoy.
I think there's somethingspecific about the disaster
(09:34):
films, though, that like kind ofit provides that like, oh yeah,
I could survive, because yourelate with the hero and then
it's like it gives a certainamount of comfort because these
disasters are terrifying andthere's very little one can do
to actually survive.
You know, it's a lot about luck.
But then we put ourselves inthe role of this hero who then
(09:54):
survives and we're like oh yeah,I'll be all right.
It's like a comfort.
There's also this sense of then.
There are people who areself-sacrificing to help
everyone else of then there arepeople who are self-sacrificing
to help everyone else.
And then there are the peoplewho die because of bad luck, but
others are compassionatetowards them and we see we can
put ourselves in these humanmoments and say like I wouldn't
(10:16):
be the weasel, I would be thecompassionate person who is like
searching for survivors andhelping who I can and the ones
who can't make it.
I would stiff upper lip and bethere for the children.
You know like there's somethingvery like comforting and like I
would be the good ones.
Not Right.
It allows us to sort of strokeour own ego without having
(10:37):
actually to go through thetrauma.
Yes, exactly, exactly.
There's something about that,and so it's.
I feel like this is the first.
I don't know I might be wrong,but this marriage of disaster
movie and science fiction isreally interesting.
It is interesting.
(10:58):
I do not think it's the first.
I mean, aren't the like giantmonster movies kind of bad?
Yeah, I suppose that's true.
Like the not King Kong, butlike Godzilla, I feel like, and
like other.
But do we actually get to knowand care about the characters
who die in those.
I haven't seen them in longenough, but and like I've never
seen the original, like theoriginal Godzillas, I know the
Matthew Broderick version yeah,but that's also.
Roland Emmerich and it cameafter, but it was based on
(11:22):
something earlier right, butthat's interesting that it's
also rolling emmerich.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Anyway, sorry we are like we haven't even started the
synopsis yet.
I keep distracting you.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I'm a bad influence today so let me kind of remind
you what's going on with this.
I had forgotten.
I thought this movie was atight 90 minutes.
That's how I remembered,remembered it.
No, no, it's nearly three hours.
Are you serious?
It's like two hours and 42minutes.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Oh wow, that's probably why it took me so long
to watch it.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
So the synopsis.
This time I'm going to dosomething a little bit different
because the way this movie isset up we are introduced to a
bunch of different groups ofcharacters who end up converging
on Area 51 in Nevada, and soI'm going to introduce the
different characters and thenkind of talk about in broad
(12:14):
strokes what happens.
So the characters are WillSmith is basically our
protagonist.
We don't meet him until like 20or 30 minutes into the movie,
but his name is Captain StephenHiller.
He is a Marine and fighterpilot.
He's a squadron leader with theBlack Knight Squadron stationed
at El Toro in California.
He wants to be an astronaut.
(12:37):
He is in a relationship with awoman named Jasmine who has a
little boy named Dylan, who isnot Steve's son.
But he is very serious aboutJasmine.
He's bought an engagement ringfor her.
But his friend Jimmy, who isplayed by Harry Connick Jr oh,
(12:57):
another very handsome man, sobeautiful Steve gets a rejection
from NASA.
Jimmy says you're never goingto get to fly the shuttle if you
marry a stripper, becausethat's what Jasmine does for a
living.
Then we meet President Thomas JWhitmore, who's played by Bill
Pullman.
He is a former fighter pilotand a Gulf War veteran.
(13:19):
He is married to MarilynWhitmore, who's played by Mary
McDonnell.
So the president is in theWhite House.
The first lady is in LosAngeles for some sort of
conference.
When we meet them they're onthe phone talking about how
she's heading home after theconference.
At a luncheon they have a smallchild, patricia, played by Mae
(13:44):
Whitman.
So she's like about seven.
I mean very little girl.
So that's the first family.
Then, also in the White House,is Constance Spano, who is the
director of communications.
So she's got the CarolynLevitt's job.
Now Connie's ex-husband isDavid Levinson, played by Jeff
(14:08):
Goldblum.
Wait, who's Connie, connie,constance, the, oh, the
communications, yeah, okay,david Levinson, played by Jeff
Goldblum.
He's MIT educated and he's asatellite engineer and tech
expert, but he works for a cablecompany in New York City.
His father is Julius Levinson,played by Judd Hirsch.
(14:29):
So there are multiple people wemeet at David's workplace as
well.
There are several other peoplein the government that I kind of
skipped over.
There's General William Gray,who's the Commandant of the
United States Marine Corps.
He's played by Robert Lagia.
There is the Secretary ofDefense and former CIA Director,
(14:55):
albert Nimzicki, played byJames Rebhorn.
There is Major Mitchell, who isfrom the US Air Force.
He's a commanding officer atArea 51.
We meet him later on, but he'splayed by Adam Baldwin.
And we also meet in Californiaan alcoholic former fighter
pilot named Russell Case, playedby Randy Quaid, who I think is
(15:17):
just being himself.
He is a crop duster.
When we first meet him he'sdusting the wrong field.
He has three children namedMiguel, alicia and Troy, and I
think that's the characters.
So characters are based in NewYork City, washington DC and Los
(15:40):
Angeles.
So as the film begins there's ashadow over the moon, over where
the American flag is plantedfrom the moon, landing in 69.
There's a giant ship comingtowards Earth.
Things break off from it andenormous ships come over and
(16:01):
settle over major cities allover the world, including Los
Angeles, new York and DC.
They start scrambling cablesignals.
David Jeff Goldblum is lookingat like the signal that's
scrambling it and he's like, oh,if we just wait seven hours
it'll clear up.
Because he realizes the signalis like binary and it's a
(16:25):
countdown.
And then like finally looks atwhat the president is saying in
the intelligence briefings, he'slike, oh no, that's not a
countdown until it goes away,it's a countdown until
destruction.
So he tries to call his ex-wife,connie.
It turns out that they divorcedbecause he felt like she was
(16:46):
spending too much time on herpolitical career.
And she hangs up on him becauseshe refuses to listen to him,
because he's saying you have toget out of the White House.
And she's like, oh, this oldsaw he goes to get his father
because he doesn't drive.
You see Jeff Goldblum goeverywhere on a bike, so he goes
to get his father, who has acar, and they drive down to DC.
So this obviously takes foreverand they only have seven hours
(17:11):
and basically are able to.
At the he became president,they got into a fistfight
because he accused him of havingan affair with Connie.
So he's able to convince himthis is a countdown and they're
(17:36):
able to take Marine One, thehelicopter out and then get to
Air Force One.
So meanwhile New York is beingdestroyed.
We see several of David'sco-workers getting killed In Los
(17:57):
Angeles.
Steve Hiller, will Smith, hasbeen called to the Army base or
the Marine base.
Rather, he has told Jasmine hey, just in case, why don't you
and Dylan pack up a few thingsand come to the base?
You know, just to be safe, up afew things and come to the base
(18:17):
, you know, just to be safe, andshe has gone into her workplace
just to pick up her check.
She's talked into working, soshe's running behind and she
sees, you know, that people arelike gathering on rooftops.
So Jasmine and her son Dylanare stuck in traffic trying to
(18:43):
get out.
When the destruction comes.
They're in this like tunnel andlike balls of fire are coming.
They have their dog with themand there's this like locked
door for like some sort ofaccess panel.
She manages to kick the dooropen, gets in and like calls the
(19:07):
dog who comes running and jumpsin with the balls of fire
behind him.
It was like why would the firenot go in there?
It's not, there's oxygen.
Speaker 2 (19:20):
Don't bother me with physics here, I also.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
I love animals.
I do, and like I care whetheror not Boomer the dog lives, I
do.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
But what about all the people?
That's not how movies work, Em.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
All those people are dying and you want me to carry
about the golden retriever?
Speaker 2 (19:39):
that is how movies work anyway.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
So jasmine, dylan and boomer make it.
Meanwhile, hiller and the restof the black knight squadron are
sent to shoot at the giant shipover Los Angeles.
It does nothing because theyhave shields.
Little fighter pilots from thegiant ship come after them and
(20:03):
all of the squadron are takendown, except for Hiller, who
manages to shake all of themexcept for one.
He is able to eject and destroyboth his and the other ship and
pulls the alien out.
He has the welcome to Earthline before he punches it and
then, like, wraps it up in hisparachute and is dragging it
(20:25):
through the desert.
So meanwhile, jasmine has founda municipal truck, found the
keys in the visor, which is justhave them be in the ignition.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
That's how movies work.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Well, but it was abandoned.
It would make sense if it wasabandoned in the ignition.
But you know what?
Okay, roland, it's fine.
It's fine, roland, it's fine,I'll give you that.
Anyway.
So it's this huge municipaltruck and she's going around and
gathering whatever survivorsshe can find.
She finds the first lady whohas been very, very badly
(21:04):
injured.
Oh, wow.
So she is heading to El Torobase to try to get to Steve.
To try to get to Steve, steve,in the desert, comes across the
caravan of RVs which includesRandy Quaid's Russell Case
because that's where he and hiskids live among a whole bunch of
other people.
And he says I saw a base as Iwas flying over.
(21:28):
They're like it's not on themap.
He's like I know it's there andso they take him there.
While on Air Force One there's alarge argument between the
president and a bunch of otherpeople and Julius says, like
what about Area 51?
And the president's like Iassure you, there's no Area 51.
And Nismiki, who is the formerCIA head and the current
(21:50):
Secretary of Defense and thehuman antagonist, is like well,
and so they come to area 51where they meet brent spiners,
dr okun, who is just dr noonieand sing from star trek, the
next generation, totally.
(22:11):
So he shows them they have acrash-landed vehicle from the
50s, one of their little fighterpilot spaceships, and they have
three alien bodies on ice.
And they're like you have tohave clearance.
And he's got, you know, thiswhole caravan of RVs.
(22:34):
He's in the back of a pickuptruck.
He's like, oh, you wantclearance, I'll show you
clearance.
And he, like, opens up theparachute and shows him the
alien body.
And they're like, whoa, okay,let him in.
And so that leads to the scenethat you remember the release me
because they start trying tooperate on it and it's not dead
and causes all kinds of havocand has some sort of like
(22:57):
psychic yes.
Because, they determined.
It doesn't have any kind ofvocal cords, so the only way it
can possibly communicate istelepathically.
So it does something to BrentSpiner, dr Okun, and then it
beams its thoughts to thepresident and tells him
basically, basically, this iswhat we do.
(23:18):
We're locusts, y'all are introuble, yeah.
So they decide to try to nukethe next ship that is over
Houston, because that's the onlypossible way to just destroy it
.
That doesn't work.
And they've nuked Houston.
Just destroy it.
That doesn't work.
And they've nuked Houston.
David, who is very idealistic,is like freaking out because,
(23:42):
like you know what's the point,let's just destroy the planet
and they won't want it anymore.
His father finds him and saysyou know, we all lose our faith
sometimes.
You know, I haven't spoken toGod since your mother died.
And he says something thatgives David the idea like, oh,
what if we give them a computervirus and then we can bring down
the shields?
Steve learns that the El Torobase has been destroyed.
(24:02):
He steals a helicopter to golook for Jasmine, finds her,
brings everyone back.
The First Lady lives longenough to see the president and
her daughter and then dies.
Lives long enough to see thepresident and her daughter and
then dies and Goldblum says orDavid says, let's take the old
ship to the mothership, I cangive it a computer virus that'll
take down the shields and thenwe can use fighter pilots to
(24:26):
destroy the ships.
And then you know, victory, allgood stuff.
Nismith's Nismicky the weasel islike you know, this is terrible
.
You've made so many mistakes.
This is the CIA guy, the CIAslash Secretary of Defense, and
the president fires him and saysyeah, let's go ahead with this,
but we're gonna need morepilots.
(24:47):
So they like all right, we needas many pilots as possible and
they coordinate across the world.
They have to use Morse codepossible and they coordinate
across the world.
They have to use Morse code toreach out to everyone across the
world because the aliens areusing their satellites and
they're able to do that.
Steve and Jasmine get marriedbefore they go.
(25:08):
Connie tries to convince Davidthat he doesn't have to go
because she's like great, nowhe's ambitious.
And we see Russell sober up andsay okay, I'm gonna do this, be
a fighter pilot.
Steve and David are able to getto the mothership.
They upload the virus noproblem.
(25:30):
Like yeah, I have to try threetimes to get my.
Get a thumb drive in.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Right or to like connect to Instagram and
Facebook.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
But yeah, bluetooth is not able to connect ever on
the first try.
Also, like aliens, write incomputer languages that David
knows.
Oh, he's brilliant, he went toMIT.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
They use C++.
Obviously, David knows.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Well, he's brilliant, he went to MIT.
They use C++, obviously, butthey're stuck, they can't get
out.
So they have a nuclear missileand 30 seconds to get out.
So they're like, okay, we'llset that off.
And they know they're going todie.
So they set that off.
And then they're unstuck andthey're like, oh, maybe we can
get out.
And so they're able to justbarely make it out.
The fighter pilots are tryingto destroy the ships, but even
(26:18):
with the shields down they'renot making enough of a
difference until russell caseflies up into the ship as it is
opening to put out its likelaser beam, huge death star
weapon right, like from the memewith the yeah, which brings it
down, destroys it, and so we seerejoicing across the world,
(26:39):
including really offensive, likeafrican children wearing very
little and holding spearsrejoicing, and I mean it's just
awful.
I thought there were ships aboveall, like lots of major cities
around the world.
Yeah, but only one had,whatever the guy's name was, go
(27:00):
up into its belly.
No, they say.
Now we know what does it?
So share around the world.
Share around the world whatthey need to do.
So it's a repeatable disasterfor the.
It's a repeatable thing.
Yes, all right.
So then they go out to thedesert to.
They're like, okay, we need togo get hillar and david and they
find them.
They're looking fine walkingout of the desert, like that is.
(27:27):
I remember going to erica'shouse and we watched it, we
rewound and watched and rewoundand watched the two of them
walking in the desert in thoseflight suits.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
I think like 10 minutes worth, and apparently we
are now mapping Emily's eroticmap.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Well, I was texting Tracy last night going like 1996
era, Jeff Goldblum is my sexualorientation.
Apparently we have reached theend of it.
The one thing I glossed overwas Bill Pullman, the president,
saying you know, today wecelebrate our independence.
You know, it is fitting that itis July 4th, American
independence, but it will be theworld's independence.
(28:03):
Oh, we are all Americans now.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
All right, all right.
Where are we going to startwith it?
I mean, are we going to startwith American exceptionalism,
since we just said that?
Speaker 1 (28:18):
I want to start in the good place.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
Rather than in We'll make it a sandwich, let's make
it a shit sandwich.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
We'll put the shit in the middle.
I don't want to put that.
Let's start with the.
Let's not lead with that.
Yeah, let's start with themarble rye that I really enjoy,
Okay, Okay, not lead with that.
Yeah, let's start with themarble rye that I really enjoy,
okay, okay.
So, feeling seen as american jewbecause I so enjoyed judd
hirsch as julius levinson, I soenjoyed the relationship between
david and julius.
(28:46):
So when we meet them, they'replaying chess in the park in New
York City and Julius is likeharanguing David in that like
very particular Jewish parent toson or child way, where he's
like you're still wearing yourwedding ring, what it's been
four years since the divorce,and David's like it's been three
(29:07):
.
It's like it's not healthy.
And David's like you're smoking.
That's what's not healthy, Likeit's just, it is so familiar
and so delightful.
And I'm like afterwards I'mlike is Roland Emmerich Jewish?
Because he wrote it along withthe producer Devlin, Dean Devlin
?
And no, Emmerich is not Jewish.
(29:29):
Dean Devlin has a Jewish fatherand a Filipino mother and
apparently he based the JuddHirsch's character on his uncle.
And so I was like, okay, allright, that's where this is
coming from.
All right, All right.
Like this is from life, clearly.
And then the thing that I alsoreally loved and I think this is
(29:51):
also partially coming fromHirsch and Goldblum themselves
Jeff Goldblum gets up becausethey're playing chess and
Goldblum wins.
Like completely surprisingHirsch and this is checkmate
Pops he gets up and he goes overand he puts his arms around his
father and he gives him a bigkiss on the cheek and he's all
(30:13):
right, I'll see you later, pops,I love you.
And that like the, just theaffection that is so natural and
unashamed unashamed yes, that'sexactly the word which we do
not see very often in popculture between two grown men,
(30:35):
even father and son, and in thebiggest film of 1996, the
cultural touchstone of the 90s.
And then the fact that whenDavid is freaking out, so we see
multiple times like so theother thing that David is giving
his father a hard time about ishe has coffee in a styrofoam
(30:57):
cup.
He's like do you know how longit takes for these to decompose?
And David is like looking atthe chessboard and his father
says I'm decomposing whileyou're deciding.
They're having that kind of backand forth, the banter, yeah and
so.
And he's constantly like youknow, there's a recycling bin
right here and blah, blah, blah,blah.
And meanwhile there's so muchproduct placement and it's like
(31:17):
a Fruitopia thing which I'm like.
Oh my God, do you rememberFruitopia?
I don't.
Was that a soda or something?
It was a juice drink.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
If you see it, you'll be like, yeah, I recognize it,
yeah, yeah, and then Coke canseverywhere and stuff like that
anyway.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
So like you constantly see him like, and
when he says he's, he's going,when he's talking to connie and
she's like now, you're ambitious.
He says, well, I've always beentrying to save the planet.
So when he's freaking out afterthey, they nuke houston, and
he's just like his dad's, likewhat are you doing?
He's like I'm making a mess,I'm destroying everything.
Because you know, like if we,if we mess up the planet, maybe
(31:55):
they don't want it.
And his father says to him likewe all lose faith sometimes.
You know, I haven't spoken toGod since your mother died.
Yeah, you said that in yoursynopsis.
That really struck me, becausethe fact that his father
understands what David's faithis and recognizes that it is
(32:17):
just as real and just asmeaningful as his own faith in
God, in the Torah, that feelsvery Jewish too.
And then, as David is leavingto get on the spaceship, he
gives Julius his kippah andTorah.
(32:37):
Torah, yeah, like a book, aTanakh Like a book, yeah, like a
Tanakh, a Tanakh.
And it says, just in case.
And there's a point where Area51 is deep underground and they
get all Wait, sorry, juliusgives it to David, or David
gives it to Julius.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
No, david gives it to david.
No, david gives it to julius.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
He has okay, uh-huh, okay.
There's no explanation of howhe has it, why he has it.
I mean it doesn't make sense,but whatever, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, area 51 is deepunderground.
They have gotten all the peoplein the rvs like down and so
julius has put the keep on andhe started praying and he brings
people around.
He's like come around, comearoundah on and he started
praying and he brings peoplearound.
(33:15):
He's like come around, comearound.
And he's just started prayingand like he's probably the only
Jew there.
I mean, really, what are theodds?
And Nizmiki the weasel, like,comes to sit down and Julius has
started praying and Nizmikisays but I'm not Jewish.
And Julius says nobody'sperfect.
Now another one feels so seen.
(33:39):
So like all of that it's justlovely to have in a major motion
picture, you know.
Speaker 2 (33:48):
That wasn't telling a Jewish story, that wasn't
telling a Jewish story.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You know, yeah, yeah, and that's part of the nice
part of American exceptionalism,because Hezbollah asked for
parts of this film to be cut orthe film to be banned or
boycotted, because there arepoints where they're reaching
out to people internationally,where you see camps with Israeli
(34:12):
flags and Palestinian flagswhere they're working together,
oh, wow.
And then they also were likeyou know, it's propaganda that a
Jewish scientist figures it out.
They said that and JeffGoldblum responded like clearly
you're not paying attention tothe film, because it's like
people working together figureit out.
Right, because it's like peopleworking together figure it out.
(34:35):
And that is part of what's theidealism, the positive side, the
positive side, the idealism ofAmerican exceptionalism Right,
the idea that our diversity isour strength.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Yes, which we seem to have forgotten lately.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, there's a scene that I remember really sticking
with me as a 17-year-old whenJasmine has found the First Lady
, she doesn't say anything toher about having recognized her
but she's, like you know, takingcare of her, being very kind to
her as best she can in thiswasteland, and she brings her
son over, like they're talking alittle bit.
(35:08):
And she brings her son over andsays Dylan, come meet the First
Lady.
And so Marilyn says I didn'trealize you'd recognized me.
And Jasmine says Dylan, comemeet the first lady.
And so Marilyn says I didn'trealize you'd recognized me.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And Jasmine says well , I didn't make a big deal of it
.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
So Marilyn asks what do you do for a living?
She says I'm a dancer.
She's like, oh, ballet.
She says no, exotic.
And the first lady says oh, I'msorry.
And Jasmine says I'm not, Imake a good living.
Says I'm not, I make a goodliving, it's good money.
I have my own house and what Ido for my like I'll do anything
for my son and he's worth it.
And the first lady has thislike kind of look of like I
(35:56):
don't know.
It's this very interestingconversation between these two
women of very different socialclasses and that is another
aspect of like what I feel likeRoland Emmerich was trying to
say.
He was trying to make it clearthat NASA was wrong and Harry
Connick Jr's character wascorrect when saying, like you
know, you're not going to beable to fly the shuttle if
you're married to a stripper.
Like I think that is a correctassessment, that nasa would not
(36:17):
do that right.
But emmerich is judging nasafor that.
And emmerich is judging nasafor it and making it clear like
that jasmine has nothing to beashamed of and the first lady
was wrong.
And does she come to see that?
Yeah, so, and that's anotheraspect of it.
Part of American exceptionalismis like you can make your way in
(36:39):
whatever way works for you, andthat Jasmine is, in a lot of
ways, the like, compassionateheart of this film, because you
see her at every point doingwhatever she can to take care of
the people around her,including another one of the
dancers.
She has a conversation with adancer who wants to go greet the
aliens and she's like pleasedon't.
I'm really I got a bad feelingabout this.
(37:00):
Please get out of town.
And you know she's the one who,like she, finds this truck and
instead of using it just to getout, she's trying to find other
survivors, gathering survivors.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, so that's lovely.
That's lovely.
On the other hand, this is anAmerican story about how
Americans figure it out andAmericans share it with the rest
of the world.
And Americans are the best.
Right.
We turn everyone into Americans,yes, especially with the
Independence Day and the Fourthof July thing this day on the
(37:31):
4th of July thing and likethat's particularly ugly with
the fact that these aliens aretrying to destroy the major
cities around the world, exceptwhen it comes to, you know, the
places where we don't imagine.
There are major cities when weAmericans don't imagine.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
There's really thriving, beautiful major cities
.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Yeah, right, right and that's Ew.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
I didn't see that as a 17-year-old Like.
I remember being like a littlebit with the images of like I
thought it was cities when yousee like the very stereotypical
tribe, the tribal yeah I'mputting quotes around that yeah
but I didn't have the ability toarticulate that yeah, but it's
(38:26):
also there are, just as were,even more brilliant analysts.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, all over the world, all over the
world, All over the world, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
So you know, why is it all Americans Like?
Why are we not coordinatingwith other people throughout all
of this, Right, right?
And so that kind of brings me alittle bit to one thing that
actually Roger Ebert brought upin his review of it.
This is very skin deep sciencefiction, and part of that is
(38:57):
because it's a disaster movie,but it doesn't ask deep
questions.
It's a video game sciencefiction.
It's like oh, it's bad guys,let's get rid of them, but it
doesn't ask all right.
So if this is what they do,what's their original planet
like?
How do they live?
Why are they doing this their?
Why all those things?
Why did they send somethinghere in the 50s?
(39:18):
If they have telepathy, whatdoes their pacifists do, Are
they?
Speaker 2 (39:41):
no-transcript.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
And I think what you're saying here about this
and the skin-deep sciencefiction is that it didn't even
ask the what-if.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It just said we need, let's make it an alien and
didn't go any further.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
There wasn't, there's no, there are no what yeah yeah
, and even like it doesn't evenreally ask like the human, what
ifs.
Yeah, I mean it does a littlewith the people who are like I'm
gonna go greet the aliens yeah,I mean, there's a teensy bit of
that like how would peoplereact to this?
and like there's a teensy bit ofthat Like how would people
react to this?
And like there's a teensy bitof like.
I read this great book calledSpace Opera by Kat Valenti,
(40:17):
where, basically, to determineif a new species is discovered
and where the new species humansare, you have to compete in a
singing competition, because artis how you determine it,
Because art is how you determineit.
And so, since David Bowie,Prince, and like several others
are dead, there's the characterDavid Bowie, Prince, Freddie
Mercury are dead the characterhas to compete and one of the
things that it says is, like youknow, upon meeting new alien,
(40:40):
people generally fall into oneof two categories they want to
kill it or fuck it.
Okay, and I'm like, yeah, yeah,okay, yeah, that's about right.
Even that, like I was noticing,like after Jimmy dies, Harry
Connick Jr's character dies.
There's a moment where WillSmith goes no, Jimmy, and then
(41:01):
he's, like you know, fightingfor his life, but then he's like
dragging the alien through thedesert, quipping, and it's
hilarious, he's like you knowlike I'm not mad.
You know this is supposed to bemy weekend off and what the hell
is that smell and it'shilarious.
But at the same time he doesn'tknow what's happening with
Jasmine and the little boy hethinks of as his son.
(41:22):
His best friend is dead, as ishis entire squadron.
It's also kind of like WillSmith's schtick, exactly, but
that to me it's a movie, youknow, like that to me, takes me
out of the story and tells me,yeah, it breaks the illusion for
you.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
Yeah, I'm watching a movie.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
I'm not seeing a story of how humans would handle
this.
Yeah, I hear that.
I hear that we are running outof time and I want to make sure
you get to the things that youwant to get to.
So do you want to come backaround to the marriage of
disaster movies and sciencefiction at all?
I think that combination ofdisaster movie and science
(41:59):
fiction is really an interestingI think it's an interesting
genre combination because itseems like a natural fit in a
lot of ways, but I think that ithas the problem of being skin
deep.
I think that's exactly right.
I was just thinking that it sortof necessitates the skin deep
(42:20):
because in order to get thetrappings of the disaster film,
we don't have time to spend.
We don't have, like the realestate, if you will, the airtime
, real estate to spend on thewhat-ifs that make science
fiction more than skin deep.
And that's why, when you get tothe oh, we'll give the, the
computer, a virus, like.
It has to be that easy, it hasto be that quick, because
(42:41):
otherwise you're gonna have,instead of a three-hour movie,
you're gonna have a seven-hourmovie.
Right, even with that it was athree-hour movie, exactly right.
Even with super easy likekilling the big bad was actually
not that hard once you figuredout how to do it yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
If there was one other thingthat you do, do we need to
circle back to?
Oh just the.
I do find it really interestingthat Roland Emmerich is German,
(43:05):
american and was born inGermany and this is such an
America fuck yeah.
Movie.
I mean that makes a certainamount of sense.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
It's like the zeal of the convert.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Yeah, and there's the zeal of the convert.
There's also he's German,american which I can remember
when I spent six months inFrance with a host mother who
was just barely old enough toremember World War II and she at
one point asked me what Ithought of Germans.
Where she was talking about herbest friend was British and
they fought like cats and dogsbut had this deep affection for
(43:38):
each other.
And she said that's how shefelt about the English is that
they bickered but they lovedeach other.
Where she was very, very politewith Germans but did not trust
them because of her experienceremembering World War II, and I
told her I felt bad, I felt verybad for Germans my age and
anyone who was born after WorldWar II, and she's like, really,
and I was like, well, you know,you live with this legacy that
(44:01):
you have no control over, you'reborn into and it's so horrific.
So I feel like Emmerich, whowas born after World War II.
It would be very appealing tothink of that American
exceptionalism where you canremake yourself.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
It would be a very appealing kind of sensation to
want to take on.
I can see that that makes sense.
Let me see if I can reflectback quickly some of the
highlights that we talked aboutin this movie.
There was a lot actually thatwe talked about here, so in no
particular order.
In fact I'll start with themost recent is sort of like you
named, a certain skin deepscience fiction in this film
(44:45):
that like kind of puts aliens inthe role of bad guys but
doesn't actually the deepwhat-if questions that make
science fiction reallyinteresting and that we agreed,
that we seem to have a consensusthat that actually is
necessitated by the fact thatthis is a science fiction
disaster mashup.
Science fiction disaster filmmashup.
It's not pure science fiction,it's science fiction as disaster
(45:08):
film and there just isn't roomin the story for the deeper kind
of what ifs and iterating ofscience fiction at its core.
That asks these interestingquestions, these deep, deep
questions.
(45:31):
The American exceptionalism inthis film, both what is good
about it insofar as, like ourdiversity is our strength, and
like a whole bunch of misfit,disparate people pulling
together for the greater goodand that sort of that mythos of
America that is remainsappealing, and certainly we
understand, how theGerman-American writer-director
would have latched onto thatpotentially, especially given
(45:52):
his German heritage that youjust talked about and sort of
the legacy of Nazism in hishistory, to try and like rebuild
oneself and remake oneself, notbased on even one's profession
but just one's like moralcharacter, as epitomized by
Jasmine, the exotic dancer whois the emotional heart of this
(46:14):
film.
But there's also an Americanexceptionalism which is just
kind of jingoism, which isdoesn't even see people in the
rest of the planet as people.
But there's no sense that thereare scientists in China or in
Turkey or in Bogota or in Lagoswho could have helped?
(46:34):
Or Mozambique.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah, there's no sense that there are brilliant
minds, brilliant humans aroundthe world.
Speaker 1 (46:44):
It's just missing and there's also just straight up
up like racist images of theselike stereotypical African
tribal people celebrating thedestruction of the aliens, which
is kind of icky because we havethis strong relationship in a
(47:15):
very thick Jewish accent betweenJulius and David that kind of
recognizes different ways ofbeing faithful.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
That sort of says to someone like you're not Jewish,
Well, nobody's perfect.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
You know that just is kind of delightful and like
feels like you're in on the joke.
I think is sort of what I heardthere and also within that Like
feels like you're in on the joke, I think is sort of what I
heard there and also within that, which is not necessarily
Jewish explicitly but isbeautiful the relationship
between father and son, thisunashamed affection, including
physical affection, which wenever get or almost never get
between two grown men who arepresumably straight in
(47:47):
mainstream media, especially notin the mid 90s and the fact
that this was in thisblockbuster like hugely
expensive and highly promotedfilm that everyone was talking
about in 1996 feels reallyspecial.
Let me see, I think that thoseare the main things that we
talked about.
(48:07):
I mean, I think on the Jewishquestion there was a little bit
of conversation about like isJudd Hirsch's character a
stereotype in a negative sense?
And we kind of made thedistinction between being a
character that reads as true,useful, not universal, versus
being a caricature whichexaggerates to humorous extent,
like different components Interms of this.
(48:30):
Let me just come back reallyquickly to the skin deep science
fiction.
That also led to a sense thatthe solution was like really
freaking easy because the aliensapparently code in linux or c++
or something else that thatjeff goldblum's character, david
, would know, you know, eventhough they don't like, have
mouths or vocal cords and andcommunicate via telepathy they
(48:54):
obviously code inthe language that Jeff Goldblum
can speak.
I mean, coding is universal, ofcourse.
Yeah, clearly I missed and thenwe really need to wrap up is
the fact that smith's shtick inthe desert was hilarious but
(49:15):
actually broke the illusion foryou because it did not feel
truthful, it did not feelplausible for a man who had just
been through what he'd beenthrough.
Yes, yeah, and there were othermoments like that, like the
fireballs in the in the tunnel,damn dog.
I mean like, yeah, I'm glad thedog lived, but right, but it
broke the illusion.
It made you remember you're ina movie.
(49:35):
Yes, very much so, anything Iforgot.
And then we need to say goodbye.
I still can't believe you.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
You didn't see it until you're in your 40s until a
few years ago and it was avalidation of a muppet movie for
me, yeah.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
Yeah, yep.
So next time, what are youbringing me?
Pretty sure I'm bringing youweird science next time.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
Ooh, I think that's not going to be a good one.
Speaker 1 (49:58):
I'm really worried about how that's going to go.
Speaker 2 (50:00):
I don't think that's going to hold up.
I haven't rewatched it yet, butlike I do not have high hopes
for this one.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
All right, we'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
Speaker 2 (50:22):
You can support us at our Patreon.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
There's a link in the show notes, or leave a positive
review so others can find usand, of course, share the show
with your people.
Thanks for listening Our thememusic is Professor.
Umlaut by Kevin MacLeod fromincompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(50:46):
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
And shouldn't you know?
Speaker 1 (50:53):
what's in your head.
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