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If you look for it, I've got a sneaky feeling you'll find that love actually is all around.
This week, Emily brings her deep thoughts about the first of two Christmas movies the Guy Girls will be covering for the 2025 holiday season: Richard Curtis's 2003 romcom Love, Actually.
While both sisters thoroughly enjoyed the 10 interlocking stories of romance, parental love, heartbreak, dubious comedy, and even dubiouser feminism when the film debuted, Curtis's storytelling style hasn't exactly aged well. Not only does Love, Actually lean into the ubiquitous early 2000s culture of fat shaming despite Curtis trying write pointed cultural commentary about how ridiculous that was through the story of Martine McCutcheon's character Natalie, but the women in the movie are consistently treated as objects and prizes to be won, rather than fully formed people. But as Tracie argues, if Curtis believes in True Love, which can happen At First Sight (with the capitalization of those romantic ideals implied), then of course he paints himself into the corner of love based on physical attraction, which means young, slender, beautiful women--and it something we see repeatedly in his movies.
There are still plenty of laughs and poignant moments in this film, so no shade on anyone who puts this in their rotation of Christmas movies to revisit each year. But it definitely works as a time capsule for where we were in 2003.
If Christmas is all around you, put in your earbuds to get it out of your head for once!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://www.jezebel.com/i-rewatched-love-actually-and-am-here-to-ruin-it-for-al-1485136388
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
So I have to tell you, my husband, who had not
seen this movie, wandered inwhile I was watching this, and
he's just like, What is this?
And then, like, the music'splaying.
He's like, This music isannoying.
And then he's like, What thehell?
Colin Firth is in this.
Why the hell is Alan Rickman inthis?
Like, Emma Thompson should beashamed of herself.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 Richard Curtis film,Love Actually, with my sister,
Tracy Guy Decker.
And with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:54):
Alright, Trace.
So I found out that my spousehas not seen this movie because
he walked in while I waswatching it and was horrified.
But I know you've seen thismovie.
So tell me what's in your headabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I have seen this movie, and um I remember a
lot of it.
And I've seen it multiple times.
And in 2003, you said, is thatwhen it was released?
I loved it.
I really loved it.
I loved there's several lovestories that kind of intersect
and don't.
And I particularly enjoyed theone between Hugh Grant as the
(02:27):
prime minister and sort ofeveryday girl whose name I don't
remember.
Martine McCutcheon is theactress.
Thank you.
I remember even at the time,like they make a big deal about
how chubby this girl is.
And I remember even at the time,like she's not.
And even if she were, like, whatthe fuck is wrong with you
(02:49):
people?
The way they were talking abouther.
Like, it really bothered me evenat the time.
Things that didn't bother me atthe time that now looking back,
like even in my memory, Ihaven't seen it recently, like
really creep me out.
Like the guy with the cards,like for his best friend's wife.
Um, ugh.
And um, looking back on it,there's a an adultery love
(03:12):
storyline.
And I remember sort of feelinglike we were supposed to, I
don't know, understand whySeverus Snape, is that the
actor?
Colin Rickman would why Rickmanwould do what he did, even
though like Emma Thompson islike the coolest ever.
So anyway, obviously I have alot in my head that like mostly
(03:36):
what I'm bringing to you interms of the furniture of my
mind is like a littleembarrassed as to just how much
I enjoyed it.
Because looking back on it, evenwithout re-watching it, just
what's in my head, I'm like, oh,oh, oh, and I'm like cringing
like the whole way.
So yeah.
But tell me, um, why are wetalking about it today?
(03:56):
What's at stake for you aboutlove actually?
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
So I had a similar kind of reaction to it where I
liked it the first time Iwatched it.
And I liked it even after that.
Like, you know, I've I'vewatched it multiple times.
And I have friends who are like,I know it's problematic, but I
still really like it.
There's that kind of like, Ifeel like there's a Christmas
(04:21):
gets a pass.
Um, I feel that way aboutChristmas music.
There's a lot of bad Christmasmusic out there that people are
like, but it's Christmas.
Which is why one of my scorchinghottest takes is that uh
Christmas music can be played orshould be played from midnight
on December 24th to midnight onDecember 26th, inclusive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Oh, I'm with you.
unknown (04:42):
With you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Which I said that last year I was taking an art
class at uh the MilwaukeeInstitute of Art and Design, and
it was early November, and therewas a 17-year-old kid who was
taking the class, and she'slike, Oh, we should play
Christmas music, and I saidthat, and she turned to me,
she's like, It's okay to bewrong.
I was like, I could be yourmother child.
(05:04):
No, and that's because there'senough good Christmas music to
last that long.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And even the bad stuff you only have to hear
once.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
But anyway, so I think there's some of that.
I think some of it is like thenostalgia of when we we consumed
it uncritically.
Some of it is the like the eyecandy.
I think some of it is RichardCurtis what he does, he does
well.
(05:33):
And so the first time you seeit, you you enjoy it.
And then like I think some of itI like didn't even realize until
I read Lindy West's absolutelydelightful takedown, which I
will link to in the show notes.
Where she, if you're notfamiliar with Lindy West, she is
a just an amazing essayist.
(05:54):
She wrote a book called Shrill,which is hilarious, where she
re-watches it.
And as she's watching, she'swriting like, this is not how
this works.
This is not how anything worksabout everything.
And her delightful takedownhelped me see how screwed up so
(06:15):
many things were, even though Ihad already begun to be like,
yeah, this is not okay.
This is not okay.
That's not okay.
Like, yes, Colin Firth isgorgeous, but that's not okay.
So I have a feeling this mightbe a controversial episode
because people love this movie,or people hate this movie, or
(06:35):
people love to hate this movie,or hate to love this movie.
But we're talking about it nowbecause it's tis the season.
We went back and forth over whowas gonna cover this episode,
and I think I won.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Well, we decided to do a two-barreled Christmas this
time, so I'm gonna do Gremlinsnext time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
So because as you said, it is intertwined stories.
I'm not gonna go straightthrough because it's impossible.
I'm going to basically explainthe timeline.
We start six weeks to Christmas,and then we go week by week up
until Christmas.
(07:16):
And then I'm going to introducethe various characters.
And there's about 10 storiesthat kind of intertwine.
I might skip a few.
I'll just go the the majorcharacters.
Yeah, like the guys who go toAmerica.
Like, I don't think we need totalk about it.
Well, except that I do want totalk about.
Okay.
All right, carry on.
I felt that was so fucked up thefirst time I saw it.
(07:38):
So we meet Billy Mack, who is anaging rock star who is no longer
relevant, and his manager, Joe.
Billy Mack is recording aChristmas version of the Trog's
song Love is All Around, exceptit's Christmas is all around,
and he's doing it intentionallyas a like crass money grab.
(08:00):
Why he's recording it six weeksbefore Christmas, no idea.
Like you don't do the Christmassong six weeks before Christmas,
you'd do it.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Procrastinators unite.
And he has um intentionally donethis because he wants to have a
number one hit to get back ontop because he is now
irrelevant.
And so we see him like pepperedthrough.
And while he is not related toanyone else in the story, we do
see other people watching him ontalk shows and listening to him
(08:32):
on the radio and stuff likethat.
And his goal the entire time ishe wants to celebrate Christmas,
like having gotten the numberone Christmas song with Elton
John, because Elton John isknown for having lavish parties
so that he's back on top as amajor rock star instead of
having like the lonely, likesingle guy party with his
(08:52):
manager Joe, who he's constantlycalling fat.
And he does end up getting thenumber one single, but he leaves
Elton John's party and goes toJoe's apartment because he
realizes that Christmas is whenyou're supposed to be with the
people you love, and he realizesthat over the years that Joe is
(09:13):
the love of his fucking lifebecause they have been friends
all these years and spent allthis time together.
And then he says, let's getdrunk and watch porn.
And honestly, classy.
Classy, uh, his speech to Joe iskind of my favorite part of the
movie.
So Billy Mack is played by BillNye.
(09:35):
We meet um Juliet, Peter, andMark.
Juliet is played by KiraKnightley, she was like 17 at
the time.
Peter is played by, I do notknow how to pronounce his name,
Chuotel Ijoophor.
I'm sure that's wrong.
I know that's wrong.
And then Mark is played by, ohgod, what is that guy's name?
(09:56):
He went on to be on the zombieshow.
Anyway, so Juliet and Peter aregetting married.
Mark is secretly in love withJuliet and he has distanced
himself from her, like pretendshe doesn't like her because, as
a self-preservation tactic, heis Peter's best friend.
People think that Mark is inlove with Peter because of the
(10:17):
way that he acts, but no, it'she's in love with Juliet.
She accidentally finds outbecause the photographer screwed
up at the wedding.
And she knew that Mark wastaking video.
So she shows up at his apartmentto be like, hey, can I see the
video?
He had been dodging her.
(10:37):
So she finds the video and it'sall close-ups of her, not creepy
at all.
And so she realizes, like, oh,it's not that he doesn't like
me, it's that he's in love withme.
And so he like runs away.
Later on on Christmas Eve, heshows up at the house and does
that thing that you rememberwith the cue cards almost.
(10:59):
Cue cards, yeah.
Saying that basically to me,you're perfect, and I'll my
wasted heart will love you untilyou look like this and like has
a mummy.
It's creepy.
And then he goes away and sherewards him by kissing him on
the lips and then goes back tohis best friend, her husband,
her husband.
(11:19):
Her husband.
Then we uh there's Jamie andAurelia.
Jamie is played by Colin Firth.
Aurelia is Portuguese, and Ihave lost the name of the
actress.
Jamie attends Peter and Juliet'swedding without his girlfriend
because she's sick.
He comes back in between theceremony and the reception to
find that she is cheating on himwith his brother.
(11:42):
So he leaves and goes to thesouth of France where he has a
house, and the uh woman whomaintains his house has brought
him a woman, Aurelia, who isPortuguese and speaks no
English, and neither of themreally speak French.
So he falls in love with Aureliabecause she's pretty.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
Also, she likes tries to save his manuscript.
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah, which he's typing out in the open air.
And it blows into the water andblows into the water and she
takes off her clothes to go getit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Right, right, right.
So she gets naked to save hismanuscript.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
I mean, who could blame him?
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Well, and she's got a tattoo like right above her uh
her tailbone.
So, you know, that's classy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
Classy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Well, you know, also whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (12:32):
I mean, it's classy that he's turned on by that.
I mean, like, whatever.
She can have a tattoo wherevershe wants.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Then there's Harry, who is played by Alan Rickman,
Karen, played by Emma Thompson,who is his wife, and Mia, who I
don't know who she's played by,who is the secretary or the
administrative assistant ofHarry.
Harry is the boss at company.
It is unclear what the companydoes because they don't do
(12:59):
anything remotely professional.
It doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
It's not the point.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
So uh yeah, when we first see them at work, Mia is
coming in and said, Sarah'sready for you.
Sarah is played by Laura Linney,and Sarah comes in for a meeting
with Harry, and Harry's like, sowhen are you gonna jump the
bones of Carl?
The other guy works here.
Like, that's I mean, he doesn'tsay that directly, but he says,
so when are you gonna tell himthat you want to get married and
have all the sex and babies?
(13:26):
Like, at work.
Now, I don't know employment lawin the UK.
I don't, but I suspect shit likethat is frowned upon.
Yes.
Anyway, Mia is young and verysexy and has made it clear that
she really, really wants to getin Harry's pants.
(13:50):
And like, you know, Alan Rickmanwas Alan Rickman, but WTF.
So Karen is um a stay-at-homeparent and is awesome, but she's
also appropriately aged forHarry.
Although Harry is older thanKaren, and Harry is older than
(14:11):
Mia.
So Mia basically manipulatesHarry into buying her, not even
manipulates, she basically justtells him, like, I want
something pretty for Christmas.
And you can have anything youwant if you do that for me.
And so he buys her a necklace.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
From Mr.
Bean.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
From Mr.
Bean, yes.
And uh Karen finds it.
He comes home late.
She's like, Where were you?
He's like, Can't a man have anysecrets?
And she checks in his jacket andfinds the necklace and thinks
it's a Christmas gift for her.
And then when she actually opensher Christmas gift from him and
it's a Joni Mitchell CD, becausethey had had a conversation
about Joni Mitchell, about howmuch she loves Joni Mitchell,
(14:50):
she realizes that he gave it tosomeone else.
She says to him later, like,What would you do in my
situation when your husband hasgiven a necklace to someone
else?
Do you wait around to find outif it was just a necklace or
necklace in sex or necklace andlove, knowing forever that your
life is a little bit worse?
And he says, Oh, I've been sucha fool.
(15:10):
And she's like, Yes, but you'vemade a fool of me too.
You've made a fool of my lifeand all of my choices.
Karen's older brother, whichdoesn't make any sense because
Emma Thompson is older than HughGrant, who plays her older
brother.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
I mean, actors and characters are not always the
same age.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yes.
But so Karen's older brother,David, who is the prime
minister, the new primeminister, which also this is not
how things work, becauseelections in England are in May.
SPEAKER_01 (15:45):
Well, maybe it was a snap election.
Like maybe it was one of thoseno confidence votes and the
other guy lost.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
Possibly.
Anyway, so Karen's brother, newrecently elected prime minister,
is David.
He is single and he has juststarted, he's just arrived at 10
Downing Street.
He's introduced to his newstaff, and Natalie, who is the
catering manager, is played byMartine McCutcheon, who is a
soap opera star in the UK.
(16:12):
And so she is just adorable andlike immediately charms him by
saying, like, oh no, I thought Iwas gonna say like some shit.
And then she's like, oh no, I'vejust said shit on my first day,
because it's also her first day.
So he is immediately smitten.
The president of the UnitedStates, played by Billy Bob
(16:34):
Thornton, comes and he is uhlike a combination of Bill
Clinton and George W.
Bush.
David catches the presidenttrying to kiss her and then
immediately goes to a pressconference where David like
basically cuts the America offat the knees, which is not how
(16:56):
international diplomacy works.
I mean I mean which was not howinternational diplomacy worked
in 2003.
He then also has Nina Sosania,who is um in Good Omens and you
know Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
She plays Nina.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Yeah.
And also one of the sisters ofthe Chattering Order.
Yes.
Has her, who is his chief ofstaff, move her because now he's
uncomfortable with her, becauseit's her fault that the
president of the United Stateswas trying to kiss her.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And then she also has mentionedthat she dumped her ex-boyfriend
(17:39):
because he told her she wasgetting fat and he offered to
have his Secret Service orwhatever they call it in England
kill him.
Train killers phone call away.
Cute.
It's adorable.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
That's adorable courtship right there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Like it would be one of those if he didn't actually
have those on call.
That would be possible.
Flirtation.
I don't know.
I don't know.
On Christmas Eve, he is lookingthrough the Christmas cards he
received.
He got one from her where sheapologizes.
She apologizes.
For being the object ofaffection of a rival head of
(18:16):
state?
Yes, saying that she is his.
Oh, how sweet.
And so he goes off to find her.
She had said that she lived inthe dodgy end of Wandsworth or
wherever it was.
And she just said which street.
So he's on the street knockingall doors.
On every single door, likesinging Carols.
Because, you know, it's notpossible that they keep, you
(18:38):
know, employment records.
Employment records.
He's got train killers that hecould call, like one phone call,
but he can't Google.
But he can't get Natalie'saddress.
Yes, knock on doors.
(18:59):
She's on her way to her her uhkid brother's nativity play.
And so he ends up going withthem.
And he doesn't want to be seenthere because then, you know,
sleazy politician at a kid'snativity play.
She's like, no, no, no.
Well, this is my old school.
I know where we can hide.
They hide backstage, notrealizing the curtain's gonna
come up at the end of it, andthey're kissing at that point.
(19:22):
And so, whoo! Hi there.
That would be an internationalincident.
Well, I mean, she is British.
It's the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
It would still be an incident.
It was the same play as theother storyline, too, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
Yeah.
You're getting to that?
It was the same play that Karenand Harry's kids were were at,
right?
So there's Daniel and Sam.
So Daniel played by Liam Neesonand his stepson Sam.
At the beginning, Daniel's wife,Joanna, has just died.
Daniel and Karen, so it's EmmaThompson's character, are very
(19:59):
close friends.
So Daniel is, of course, likegrieving.
And he's also, Sam is 11 yearsold, and he's just not sure how
to be a parent to Sam.
He's trying really hard, butJoanna was the one who handled
the emotional stuff.
And Sam is withdrawn and in hisroom all the time.
(20:22):
And so he finally was like,okay, I gotta find out what's
going on.
Like, is it just mom or is theresomething else going on?
Is he being bullied?
Is it drugs?
What's going on?
And Sam finally confides in himand he says, I'm in love.
And Daniel's like, Oh, thankGod.
I thought it was somethingworse.
And Sam's like, worse?
There's something worse thanthis all consuming feeling.
(20:45):
Oh, puppy.
Yeah.
And so this is actually in someways the best of the storylines,
but not.
Daniel really does a lovely jobof parenting this kid and trying
to help him understand and likenavigate this love.
(21:08):
The kid that he's in love with,her name is also Joanna, same as
his mother.
And so they are like watchingromantic movies and talking
about love and all of that.
The problem is Daniel is nottelling Sam to just go talk to
her.
So Sam comes up with this ideaof like, oh, like women love
(21:29):
musicians and she's singing atthis uh concert.
And you know, if I learn to playan instrument and play it
perfectly, she'll pay attentionto me.
Which is just like, what?
So he learns the drums and playswhile Joanna sings All I Want
for Christmas is you.
And so, and then Joanna ismoving back to America that same
(21:52):
night.
Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve,right after she finishes singing
the song.
And so that's what happens.
And so they follow her to theairport and he misses her, and
the flight is being called.
And so Sam like runs through theairport, like and is like being
chased by security, so he can gogo see her.
(22:13):
He catches her right as she'sabout to get on the plane, and
she's like, Sam, and she's like,and he says, You know who I am?
He's just like, Yeah, I'vealways known who you are.
And it's like, if you had talkedto her.
And Daniel, why the hell didn'tyou tell him to talk to her?
So there's that.
(22:33):
There's Sarah, played by LauraLinney, who is in love with
Carl, played by, I don't know,someone gorgeous, um, who is she
is an employee at Harry's firm,where who knows what they do at
Harry's firm other than getinvolved in each other's lives.
She has been in love with Carlfor the three years that she's
worked there, has never saidanything to him.
(22:55):
Harry is getting way tooinvolved and telling Sarah you
should tell Carl that you wantto marry him and have babies.
Sarah keeps getting phone callsat all hours, where she keeps
saying, like, hey, babe, no, no,I'm not busy.
I can talk.
Sarah finally dances with Carlat the office party, and Carl
(23:15):
drives her home.
They are kissing, and things aremoving along nicely.
And she gets a call and shestops in the middle of things
and talks, and you hear more,and the person on the other end
sounds a little off.
Get off the phone, she explainsthat the person on the other end
is her immensely ill brother,Michael.
(23:37):
She and her brother came toEngland with their parents.
Their parents died, and she isthe only person left to take
care of Michael.
And so she feels obligated toanswer his phone calls, and he
truly is not connected withreality.
And so he calls right back.
And Carl asks, Will he be betterif you answer?
(24:01):
And she says, No.
And he says, Then why don't younot answer?
And she's like, I have to.
And then he gets up and puts hisclothes on and leaves.
Nice.
Which is like, what?
What?
She dodged a bullet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then there's Colin who decidesthat because he's British,
American girls will love hisaccent.
(24:22):
And that's why he's striking outin America.
He goes to Milwaukee.
No, he's striking out inBritain.
Thank you.
He's striking out in Britain.
He goes to Milwaukee, whereimmediately he goes to the
nearest bar.
He immediately meets threeunbelievably hot women who
instantly fall for his accent.
They invite him home wherethey're joined by their fourth
roommate, who's the hot one.
(24:43):
And um I have I have things tosay.
And then there's John and Judy.
John played by Martin Freeman.
Uh, they're professionalstand-ins for films.
The film they're standing in foris some sort of porn.
Porn?
I don't know, because they aretalking to each other.
They're they're like very basicchatting about like traffic and
(25:08):
what they're doing for theholidays and things like that.
While super sexual things arehappening around us.
Yes.
And so and they're very like shyabout each other.
And in they are the most healthyrelationship of the film.
And then there's an epilogue ofa month later showing everyone
arriving at an airport becauseit begins and ends in an
(25:31):
airport.
So I have to tell you, myhusband, who had not seen this
movie, wandered in while I waswatching this.
And he's just like, what isthis?
And then like the music'splaying.
He's like, this music isannoying.
And then he's like, what thehell?
Colin Firth is in this.
Why the hell is Alan Rickman inthis?
Like Emma Thompson should beashamed of herself.
(25:56):
Oh.
So let me start with the goodpart.
There are some things that Ithink are kind of lovely about
this, and that I think whatRichard Curtis was trying to do,
and that I think he did well,which is show that there are
lots of different types of love.
And like the voice over thebeginning, Hugh Grant's David is
(26:17):
saying is like love actually isall around us.
And so while the focus is onromantic love, there are
examples of many different typesof love.
So there is like the lovebetween parent and child with
Daniel and Sam.
And then the fact that it's astepparent is, I think,
(26:40):
especially poignant.
Poignant.
Yeah.
And even though I am like sofrustrated that Daniel is not
saying, like, you should talk toher.
How about I have a party and youhave all your friends over and
you can invite her so that youhave an opportunity to talk to
(27:01):
her, which would be a much morehealthy way of dealing with
this, his unrequited crush.
I'm really frustrated by that.
2003 Daniel is working with thescripts that men had, right,
even as recently as 20 yearsago.
Right.
(27:21):
So, like, he's like, whenthere's a night where Sam can't
sleep.
And so he's like, all right, youknow what?
We need Kate and we need Leo.
And so they're watching Titanic.
And they're talking about thelove story in Titanic.
So he's giving him what he'sgot.
And he's telling him the storyof his love story with Sam's
(27:44):
mother.
And like, you see, there's theconnection between them.
And like sometimes it's ickybecause he's saying, like, well,
Joanna was the one for me.
There's not going to be anyoneelse.
But, you know, if there is,you're going to have to move out
right away because we're goingto want to shag in every single
room in this house, includingyours, which is so gross.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
It's why would you say that to an 11-year-old?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
It's so gross.
And like, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,ew.
But it's also like Daniel'sdoing the best that he can.
Because we've also seen Karensay to him, like, you need to
stop crying.
Don't be a sissy.
No one's going to want to shagyou if you cry all the time.
So like there's this likeundercurrent of like that's the
(28:32):
humor that they're swimming in.
I judge Richard Curtis for usingthat humor, but I'm not judging
Daniel for it, because that'swhat that's what he knows.
Okay.
So like there's that.
Then there's um Sarah, LauraLinney's love for her brother,
(28:53):
who can't reciprocate in a wayshe has to give and doesn't
receive exactly.
Although after Carl leaves, shegets up and goes to Michael's
facility, and she gives him agift, and they're they're having
a conversation.
And he at one point tries,Michael tries to hit her, and
(29:15):
one of the nurses comes andstops him, and she says, Please
don't do that, my darling.
They have a conversation, yousee them hugging.
And so he gives back as best hecan.
But that love is so important aswell.
So you do see the love.
And even like Karen and Daniel,the friendship between them,
(29:37):
it's icky, like that humor.
And like it's one of those, likeI could call you like the
greatest compliment you evergave me was to call me a
subversive bitch.
Right.
But but someone else can't callme that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
Well, and also like the relationship between Karen
and Daniel is not icky.
The masculinity and theunderstanding of what is
acceptable masculinity thatinforms that friendship that
Karen's character reinforceswith that joke is icky.
Yeah.
(30:18):
Like I feel like that's animportant nuance.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
Yeah.
Definitely.
And then the love between BillyMack and Joe is like the fact
that he says, You're the love ofmy fucking life.
When he realizes that the personhe most wants to spend time with
is this person he's beeninsulting the entire time.
(30:42):
That really like I find thatmoving.
I find that really moving when Iwatch it.
And he makes a like a commentabout how like there were young
women there who are willing todo anything.
And he's like consistently beencrass and icky about women as
objects.
(31:03):
And women are objects all up,down, and throughout this film.
Yeah.
And this doesn't change the factthat he thinks of women as
objects, but he recognizes thatwhat's important to him is this
person that he has created alife with, even though it is not
(31:23):
a traditional life in any way,shape, or form.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Honestly, in some ways, it actually reifies the
women as objects because herealized that he doesn't need
objects.
He needs a human being.
And Joe is a human being, andthese women are not.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So that gets me to the Juliet,Peter, and Mark.
And watching it this time,because I do love romance novels
(31:58):
and I read a lot of them, and Ilove me a good pining storyline.
I like mutual pining.
Yeah.
As I was watching it this time,I was thinking, like, up until
she shows up at his apartment, Ikind of feel like, okay, has he
done anything wrong?
(32:19):
Like, it's not his fault that hefell for someone who's not
available.
It's not his fault he fell forhis best friend's fiance's and
wife.
It happens, you know, like youcan't help who you're attracted
to, who you feel for.
And what he has done is tried todistance himself from her, both
(32:39):
as self-preservation and also tokind of preserve his friendship
with Peter.
The video he took at the weddingis kind of creepy.
Like, why did he take that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Yes.
And I think that the implicationthat I think we are meant to
interpret is that he didn't evenmean to.
Like he was taking video.
But because he was so in lovewith her, like he kept being
drawn to her.
And that that it wasn't likethat's my recollection of that,
is that it was almost like inthe way that she is discovering,
(33:13):
oh, you're in love with me.
Like he kind of like the videois Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
So it's not a creeper thing, it's just the
process of discovery.
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
Yeah.
That's I think that's the waywe're meant to interpret it.
Not that he's like taking thisvideo so he can watch it later
or whatever and do whatever itis that he does with it.
But rather, like he was taking avideo of his best friend's
wedding.
And because he's in love withthe bride, like she ends up
being the focus of everything.
That's what I think we're meantto interpret.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
So at that point, like all of that, and he's like,
he's anguished afterwards.
So like all of that I can feelfor him.
Like he's really in an untenablesituation.
But to then go to her and say,like, my heart belongs to you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
And even like the way with the cards, like tell
him that it's Carolers, right?
Like, so he's forcing her tohave a secret from her husband.
SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
And he also like it's again, it's all about looks
because he says, Next year, I'msure I will be dating these
girls.
And he has like taken picturesof like models.
But in the meantime, just knowthat and just because it's
Christmas, and at Christmas youtell the truth, you know, my
(34:33):
wasted heart will love you untiland then he has a picture of a
mummy because it's about looks.
Because that is that why heloves her?
Because she's gorgeous?
Because she's Kira freakingnightly.
What?
And so, and at that point itgoes from like, this is
understandable, like this is anunfortunate situation that he's
(34:54):
in.
That man, that sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
To like, boy, you're betraying your best friend, and
putting the woman that you claimto love in a very uncomfortable
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
Yeah.
Which she then rewards him bykissing him.
Mm-hmm.
Ew.
Ew.
Yeah.
So it's gross.
It's really gross.
And then that gets to like thelook-ism aspect of it.
So there's so much love at firstsight because David sees Natalie
(35:25):
and immediately, like, now sheis charming in addition to being
gorgeous.
Like their first interaction isadorable because she's hilarious
and charming.
But it's all of a minute and ahalf.
And he gets into his office andgoes, Well, that's inconvenient.
(35:46):
And like, okay, you're smitten.
And okay, that's inconvenient,but like it's what?
And then same thing with Jamieand Aurelia.
Like he sees her body, and allof a sudden, like, oh, I want to
like he ends up marrying herafter an acquaintance of three
(36:10):
weeks, during which time theyhave had not a single
conversation because they don'tspeak each other's languages.
Because that's a good idea.
That ain't love.
Yeah.
That's lust.
That is not love.
And he had just broken up withthe girlfriend he lived with.
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Because she cheated on him.
With his brother.
Yeah, that's gross.
Like, no therapist worth theirsalt would be okay with that.
So, like, what?
It's just all of this undergirdsRichard Curtis's idea that love
is about looks.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
It's interesting.
I think Richard Curtis seems tothink that there is like it's
almost like when we did thePrincess Bride episode and you
talked about how literal youwere and how that you thought
there was like an actual thingthat was like true love, capital
T, capital L.
Richard Curtis believes in thattoo.
I think he genuinely believesthat.
And like you can feel it when ithappens, and it happens really
(37:11):
quickly.
And if you believe in that, thenit has to be based on looks.
Because what else could itpossibly be based on if it
happens in a moment and you knowit's capital T, capital L.
It's like by taking on thatidea, which is said in the mouth
of the widower, Daniel, like shewas my one.
(37:35):
Like you back yourself, youpaint yourself into a corner
where looks are the only thing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
Well, except that then you get John and Judy, who
because they can talk to eachother while doing extremely
awkward things, because they'restand-ins for like right, porn
star porn.
And Curtis included them becauseit's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Are we meant to think, though, that that's like
a love that built over time, orthat they also had that feeling
and just were too shy to act onit?
I don't know.
I honestly don't know.
It's interesting too, though,because I think Curtis, at the
same time as that he's paintedhimself into this corner, he
recognizes that it's bullshit,at least to some degree, because
(38:18):
he included the storyline withAlan Rickman and Emma Thompson's
character and the secretary,right?
Which we are definitely meant tosee that Rickman fucked up when
he followed lust and looks.
Yeah.
Like we are meant to judge himfor that.
Because Emma Thompson's amazingand age appropriate.
(38:40):
Like, like I definitely thinkthat we are we are meant to
think he fucked up.
We're we're meant to understandwhy he did.
Like, because of course, when ayoung, pretty girl's throwing
herself at you, you act on it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Oh, that's but you shouldn't.
That's another thing that Ibecause I looked up the ages of
the actors.
So Hugh Grant is 16 years olderthan Martine McCutcheon.
Colin Firth is 16 years olderthan the woman playing Aurelia.
I think Kira Knightley was 17and so was much younger than
both the man playing her husbandand the man playing Mark.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
What about Rickman and the secretary, the admin?
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
I think that's was like uh more than 20 years.
More than 20 years, yeah.
So that is also in there, too,is like the youth and beauty
aspect of it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
And it it's yeah, it's really there's a degree to
which we it sort of seems likeCurtis wants to push back on it
while reifying it.
The same with like the fatshaming with David's love
interest.
Like he's pushing back on itbecause she's beautiful and
obviously he cares about her.
(39:50):
It doesn't matter that she's gotthick thighs or whatever it is
that Nina says about it.
But like it's one of those likecake eat it too moments, you
know, where he gets to includethis fat shaming and then claim
that he's like pushing back onit because she gets the man in
the end, but like, what theactual fuck?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:10):
Well, and that's not the only fat shaming.
SPEAKER_01 (40:13):
Right, because Joe is like, I know Bill Nai.
Bill?
Billy Mack, played by Bill Nike.
Billy Mack like repeatedly callsJoe fat and slovenly and yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
Aurelia's sister is fat and she talks about it in
Portuguese.
And then when Jamie comes backto ask for Aurelia's hand in
marriage, he goes to her houseand he meets the sister, and the
dad is like, sure, and bringsthe sister out.
(40:45):
And he's like, No, your otherdaughter.
Because why would anyone want tomarry a fat girl?
And then there's a point, likethey all go together to find
Aurelia because she's a waitressat a w restaurant, so she's at
work.
At one point, like the sister'slike, You're gonna let Aurelia
do this.
She doesn't even know this man.
And the dad goes, like, shut up,Miss Dunkin' Donuts 2003.
(41:06):
Nice.
Yeah.
And like the thing is, thesister isn't even that big.
Like, she's what fat activistswould call small fat.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
Right.
And the girl, the woman whoplays the I can't remember her
name, but the David's Love andLove Interest isn't even small
fat.
No, she's she's straight-sized.
She's just, yeah.
She's just not not extra small.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's problematic.
unknown (41:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
Well, it tells me, because people I've seen memes
lately talking about like howfucked up the early 2000s were
about body image and body shame.
Which like I lived through it,and so of course I knew, but I
wasn't a teenager.
That's not to say I wasn'taffected by it, but it I'm
(41:59):
thankfully I wasn't 14.
And yeah, it was it was a mess.
So there were also some likeasides that were some kind of
gross.
There was one point where BillyMack is on a radio interview
where he's just talkinghonestly.
He's just like, Yeah, the song'scrap.
I'm just doing it to make money.
(42:19):
And they're like, Oh wow, you'rebeing honest.
He's like, Yeah, I'll answer anyquestion, honestly.
He's like, Okay, best shag youever had is Britney Spears.
Now, in 2003, Bill Nye was inhis 50s.
Britney Spears was just over 20.
Yeah.
I mean, she's younger than me.
And uh then he goes, Oh, I'mkidding.
(42:40):
She was rubbish.
Gross.
And like, especially now thatwe're like in retrospect
thinking about how we as asociety treated Britney Spears,
it's like, it's really awful.
So, like, ew.
It's just there's a lot inthere.
And that I'm reminded of that interms of like the fat shaming
(43:02):
because of the way that wetreated Brittany Spears and her
body and any woman who was whohad the audacity to actually be
a human being with a body andnot just a plastic, yeah, you
know, mannequin.
Yeah.
I do want to talk about likewhat Christmas means, because
this is like a Christmas movie.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
It's a self-consciously a Christmas
movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we have the in love best mansay at Christmas We Tell the
Truth.
Which what?
We have I know I'm Jewish, but Ididn't know that was like part
of the holiday.
(43:43):
Who said that?
I actually think it's kind ofthe opposite.
Like, oh yeah, this fruit cake'sdelicious.
Yeah.
Right.
I'm like, don't we?
SPEAKER_00 (43:50):
Oh yeah, I love, I love this sweater.
Don't we?
Well, and don't we don't we lieto children about like a fat
beard man coming down thechimney?
An actual fat man.
Flying, flying deer.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (44:05):
It's not it's not a truth-the truth-telling holiday.
Not a truth-telling holiday.
Yeah, what?
That's something that I findreally interesting.
And because we're Jewish, wegrew up with Christmas because
our dad wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (44:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
Right.
I'm a sucker for Christmas.
I don't celebrate it anymorebecause it didn't work with my
life.
Like, I love Christmas, but I amJewish and I just, it just
didn't work.
But I am a sucker for like allthe the sappy Hallmark Christmas
stuff.
And so, like, you know, themeaning of Christmas, the spirit
(44:44):
of Christmas.
So, like, I remember just beinglike, the first time I saw this,
being like, and at Christmas youtell the truth.
And I'm like, Yeah.
And I'm like, but since then,I'm like, that's not a thing.
It's not a thing.
It's not a thing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
I do think that Billy Mac's realization that
Christmas is about being withthe people that you care about.
Yes.
That does seem to be in linewith the spirit of Christmas, as
I understand it.
Yes.
And like Sarah's story wherewith her brother.
SPEAKER_00 (45:16):
Yeah, with her brother, where Carl's saying,
like, will it make him better ifyou answer the phone?
And she says, No.
And he says, Well, maybe don'tanswer it and you know, keep
doing fun, sexy stuff with me.
And she's like, I can't do that.
That's the meaning of Christmas.
Because for her, being there forher brother is far more
(45:36):
important than like extremelyhot Carl head of design.
Especially since, like, what thefuck is wrong with you, Carl?
You know, like your dick canwait.
Seriously.
(45:57):
And that to me is becausethere's a lot of consumerism in
this movie, too.
Well, because Billy Mack isabout he wants to sell this this
Christmas song, and he's likeclear that this is like
bullshit.
And Harry buys that expensivenecklace.
It's like 275 pounds, which Idon't know the direct exchange
(46:22):
rate, but that's expensive.
So there's like a consumerismaspect to this film.
But what is it that likeChristmas really means?
And like I feel like that's justanother the at Christmas you
tell the truth, that'sself-serving.
That's not real.
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
That's not totally self-serving.
It's actually underscores yourpoint that that he didn't do
anything egregiously wrong untilthat moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I don't want to spendtoo long here because we're
really running short on time,but the consumerism piece of it,
I think there is a degree towhich the meaning of Christmas
(47:03):
that Curtis is trying to giveus, I put that in quotes, is
trying to skewer that to adegree, right?
Because we see how crass BillyMack is.
He's straight up about it.
And even like the way, like whenHarry buys the necklace, the
Rowan Atkinson is the clerk andlike has this ridiculous ritual
for wrapping it, which ishilarious in my memory.
(47:23):
And I think that is also meantto skewer sort of the status and
consumerism of the purchase,right?
Because and it's funny becauseHarry's like, just give it to
me, just give it to me.
Like, because it's slowing himdown because he's buying it for
his would-be mistress.
But I think there is a degree towhich the movie is trying to
sort of skewer that consumerismand like gimme, gimme, gimme of
(47:47):
that can come sometimes comewith the holiday.
I don't know how effectively itskewers it, but just noting, I
was just thinking about thatwhen you talked about consumers.
Yeah.
And the and the and thenecklace.
Anyway, any final points youwant to make before I try and
wrap us up?
Milwaukee is not like that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:07):
Those girls don't sound like they're from
Milwaukee, and we're not thateasily impressed.
We're not that dumb.
Okay.
And that is not what theMilwaukee airport looks like.
They didn't even have arecombobulation area.
Okay.
Well, in 2003 they probablydidn't.
(48:28):
We weren't taking our shoes offyet.
Yes, we were, because the shoething was in 2001.
The shoe bomber.
Or 2002, rather, 2002.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (48:38):
Anyway.
So I have thoughts aboutMilwaukee.
Where Emily lives.
So Love Actually, a movie wehate to love.
So on the good side, this movieactually does portray multiple
types of love, not just romanticlove.
End of list.
(48:59):
That's what Emily said to mebefore we started.
That's the end of the list ofthe things it does well.
I don't think that actually is,but some of the things that are
like there, we also see amongthat list like this poignant
relationship between astepfather, widower, and his
stepson, which is he's doing thebest he can.
And also, like, why didn't youtell her to tell him to just
(49:20):
talk to the girl?
So, so that type of love isreally beautiful, dated now.
The relationship between theplatonic relationship between
that character, Liam NesumDaniel, and Emma Thompson's
Karen.
Karen also is beautiful.
Like this platonic relationshipwhere they really seem to care
(49:41):
about each other, which isinformed by, I name this, like
an understanding of masculinityand what is attractive in a man
that is like expressedsupposedly humorously by Karen
in ways that just don't do nothold up.
We see a lot of women as objectsin this movie, like not just
(50:04):
from Billy Mac, like just ingeneral.
Women are prizes and objects andsort of possessions to be
coveted.
We also see quite a bit of fatshaming that, like I think
Curtis was trying, maybebelieved at the time in 2003
that he was pushing back onthat, but in fact, like really
reified it in so many ways.
(50:27):
Not just with the person of theNatalie, of Natalie, the prime
minister, Hugh Grant's loveinterest, but also through Joe,
so a man who was fat, and alsothrough Aurelia, the Portuguese
woman's sister, who, oh my God,why would anybody want to marry
her?
So there's a lot of fat shamingthat's unfortunate in this
(50:48):
movie.
We got into a little bit of someinteresting questions about like
what actually is love and thisidea of like one person being
your everything that you canknow immediately with a capital
T, capital L true love, like inThe Princess Bride, which if you
believe that and that it happenssuper quickly, you kind of
default to it being about theway someone looks, because what
(51:08):
else could it possibly be basedon?
Which then Curtis paintedhimself into a corner that way
with that kind of understanding.
You push back on me on that alittle bit with the Martin
Freeman character, the twoStannins, which I still think
maybe is is in that samecategory, just those are two
very shy people.
So they needed this othermechanism in order to act on
(51:29):
this looks-based love at firstsight, which in some ways gets
pushed back against because weare meant to think that Alan
Rickman made a mistake, but inother ways, just over and over
and over again reified.
This movie has you askingquestions about like what does
Christmas really mean?
Like, what does this movie thinkChristmas really means?
We have the best friendcharacter with the cue cards
(51:52):
that has been like spoofed many,many times in culture since
then, who says that Christmas isabout telling the truth, which
no it really isn't.
No, that's not what Christmas isabout, at least not the way we
celebrate here in the US.
I think that was everything thatwe talked about.
We had a brief, like little talkabout like in that same vein of
(52:14):
what Christmas means, that itdoesn't mean consumerism.
And that's why Mr.
Bean is the guy representing theconsumerism.
But also, like maybe it kind ofdoes, because there's like a lot
about like money and gifts andstuff.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (52:29):
So uh we talked a little bit about masculinity,
yes, and talked about how it's aproduct of its time, just just
in terms of masculinity and thefat shaming and even a sense of
what courtship looks like, yeah,yeah, very much so.
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
And also like the prime minister of England could
have found the woman's address.
Oh, yeah, just he just couldhave.
Yeah, he just could have.
Yeah.
So anyway, it was funnier tohave Hugh Grant like singing
good king whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:00):
Also, Milwaukee.
SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Milwaukee.
Milwaukee is not the way it'sportrayed in this movie, folks.
So just remember that.
All right, well, we're gonnastay on this Christmas theme
next week when I bring you mydeep thoughts about gremlins.
Sounds good.
All right, talk then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(53:23):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(53:43):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
So I have to tell you, my husband, who had not
seen this movie, wandered inwhile I was watching this, and
he's just like, What is this?
And then, like, the music'splaying.
He's like, This music isannoying.
And then he's like, What thehell?
Colin Firth is in this.
Why the hell is Alan Rickman inthis?
Like, Emma Thompson should beashamed of herself.
SPEAKER_01 (01:08):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_00 (01:34):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
Because pop culture is stillculture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 2003 Richard Curtis film,Love Actually, with my sister,
Tracy Guy Decker.
And with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:54):
Alright, Trace.
So I found out that my spousehas not seen this movie because
he walked in while I waswatching it and was horrified.
But I know you've seen thismovie.
So tell me what's in your headabout it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:06):
Yeah, I have seen this movie, and um I remember a
lot of it.
And I've seen it multiple times.
And in 2003, you said, is thatwhen it was released?
I loved it.
I really loved it.
I loved there's several lovestories that kind of intersect
and don't.
And I particularly enjoyed theone between Hugh Grant as the
(02:27):
prime minister and sort ofeveryday girl whose name I don't
remember.
Martine McCutcheon is theactress.
Thank you.
I remember even at the time,like they make a big deal about
how chubby this girl is.
And I remember even at the time,like she's not.
And even if she were, like, whatthe fuck is wrong with you
(02:49):
people?
The way they were talking abouther.
Like, it really bothered me evenat the time.
Things that didn't bother me atthe time that now looking back,
like even in my memory, Ihaven't seen it recently, like
really creep me out.
Like the guy with the cards,like for his best friend's wife.
Um, ugh.
And um, looking back on it,there's a an adultery love
(03:12):
storyline.
And I remember sort of feelinglike we were supposed to, I
don't know, understand whySeverus Snape, is that the
actor?
Colin Rickman would why Rickmanwould do what he did, even
though like Emma Thompson islike the coolest ever.
So anyway, obviously I have alot in my head that like mostly
(03:36):
what I'm bringing to you interms of the furniture of my
mind is like a littleembarrassed as to just how much
I enjoyed it.
Because looking back on it, evenwithout re-watching it, just
what's in my head, I'm like, oh,oh, oh, and I'm like cringing
like the whole way.
So yeah.
But tell me, um, why are wetalking about it today?
(03:56):
What's at stake for you aboutlove actually?
SPEAKER_00 (03:59):
So I had a similar kind of reaction to it where I
liked it the first time Iwatched it.
And I liked it even after that.
Like, you know, I've I'vewatched it multiple times.
And I have friends who are like,I know it's problematic, but I
still really like it.
There's that kind of like, Ifeel like there's a Christmas
(04:21):
gets a pass.
Um, I feel that way aboutChristmas music.
There's a lot of bad Christmasmusic out there that people are
like, but it's Christmas.
Which is why one of my scorchinghottest takes is that uh
Christmas music can be played orshould be played from midnight
on December 24th to midnight onDecember 26th, inclusive.
SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
Oh, I'm with you.
unknown (04:42):
With you.
SPEAKER_00 (04:43):
Which I said that last year I was taking an art
class at uh the MilwaukeeInstitute of Art and Design, and
it was early November, and therewas a 17-year-old kid who was
taking the class, and she'slike, Oh, we should play
Christmas music, and I saidthat, and she turned to me,
she's like, It's okay to bewrong.
I was like, I could be yourmother child.
(05:04):
No, and that's because there'senough good Christmas music to
last that long.
SPEAKER_01 (05:09):
And even the bad stuff you only have to hear
once.
SPEAKER_00 (05:12):
But anyway, so I think there's some of that.
I think some of it is like thenostalgia of when we we consumed
it uncritically.
Some of it is the like the eyecandy.
I think some of it is RichardCurtis what he does, he does
well.
(05:33):
And so the first time you seeit, you you enjoy it.
And then like I think some of itI like didn't even realize until
I read Lindy West's absolutelydelightful takedown, which I
will link to in the show notes.
Where she, if you're notfamiliar with Lindy West, she is
a just an amazing essayist.
(05:54):
She wrote a book called Shrill,which is hilarious, where she
re-watches it.
And as she's watching, she'swriting like, this is not how
this works.
This is not how anything worksabout everything.
And her delightful takedownhelped me see how screwed up so
(06:15):
many things were, even though Ihad already begun to be like,
yeah, this is not okay.
This is not okay.
That's not okay.
Like, yes, Colin Firth isgorgeous, but that's not okay.
So I have a feeling this mightbe a controversial episode
because people love this movie,or people hate this movie, or
(06:35):
people love to hate this movie,or hate to love this movie.
But we're talking about it nowbecause it's tis the season.
We went back and forth over whowas gonna cover this episode,
and I think I won.
SPEAKER_01 (06:48):
Well, we decided to do a two-barreled Christmas this
time, so I'm gonna do Gremlinsnext time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (06:55):
So because as you said, it is intertwined stories.
I'm not gonna go straightthrough because it's impossible.
I'm going to basically explainthe timeline.
We start six weeks to Christmas,and then we go week by week up
until Christmas.
(07:16):
And then I'm going to introducethe various characters.
And there's about 10 storiesthat kind of intertwine.
I might skip a few.
I'll just go the the majorcharacters.
Yeah, like the guys who go toAmerica.
Like, I don't think we need totalk about it.
Well, except that I do want totalk about.
Okay.
All right, carry on.
I felt that was so fucked up thefirst time I saw it.
(07:38):
So we meet Billy Mack, who is anaging rock star who is no longer
relevant, and his manager, Joe.
Billy Mack is recording aChristmas version of the Trog's
song Love is All Around, exceptit's Christmas is all around,
and he's doing it intentionallyas a like crass money grab.
(08:00):
Why he's recording it six weeksbefore Christmas, no idea.
Like you don't do the Christmassong six weeks before Christmas,
you'd do it.
SPEAKER_01 (08:08):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:09):
Procrastinators unite.
And he has um intentionally donethis because he wants to have a
number one hit to get back ontop because he is now
irrelevant.
And so we see him like pepperedthrough.
And while he is not related toanyone else in the story, we do
see other people watching him ontalk shows and listening to him
(08:32):
on the radio and stuff likethat.
And his goal the entire time ishe wants to celebrate Christmas,
like having gotten the numberone Christmas song with Elton
John, because Elton John isknown for having lavish parties
so that he's back on top as amajor rock star instead of
having like the lonely, likesingle guy party with his
(08:52):
manager Joe, who he's constantlycalling fat.
And he does end up getting thenumber one single, but he leaves
Elton John's party and goes toJoe's apartment because he
realizes that Christmas is whenyou're supposed to be with the
people you love, and he realizesthat over the years that Joe is
(09:13):
the love of his fucking lifebecause they have been friends
all these years and spent allthis time together.
And then he says, let's getdrunk and watch porn.
And honestly, classy.
Classy, uh, his speech to Joe iskind of my favorite part of the
movie.
So Billy Mack is played by BillNye.
(09:35):
We meet um Juliet, Peter, andMark.
Juliet is played by KiraKnightley, she was like 17 at
the time.
Peter is played by, I do notknow how to pronounce his name,
Chuotel Ijoophor.
I'm sure that's wrong.
I know that's wrong.
And then Mark is played by, ohgod, what is that guy's name?
(09:56):
He went on to be on the zombieshow.
Anyway, so Juliet and Peter aregetting married.
Mark is secretly in love withJuliet and he has distanced
himself from her, like pretendshe doesn't like her because, as
a self-preservation tactic, heis Peter's best friend.
People think that Mark is inlove with Peter because of the
(10:17):
way that he acts, but no, it'she's in love with Juliet.
She accidentally finds outbecause the photographer screwed
up at the wedding.
And she knew that Mark wastaking video.
So she shows up at his apartmentto be like, hey, can I see the
video?
He had been dodging her.
(10:37):
So she finds the video and it'sall close-ups of her, not creepy
at all.
And so she realizes, like, oh,it's not that he doesn't like
me, it's that he's in love withme.
And so he like runs away.
Later on on Christmas Eve, heshows up at the house and does
that thing that you rememberwith the cue cards almost.
(10:59):
Cue cards, yeah.
Saying that basically to me,you're perfect, and I'll my
wasted heart will love you untilyou look like this and like has
a mummy.
It's creepy.
And then he goes away and sherewards him by kissing him on
the lips and then goes back tohis best friend, her husband,
her husband.
(11:19):
Her husband.
Then we uh there's Jamie andAurelia.
Jamie is played by Colin Firth.
Aurelia is Portuguese, and Ihave lost the name of the
actress.
Jamie attends Peter and Juliet'swedding without his girlfriend
because she's sick.
He comes back in between theceremony and the reception to
find that she is cheating on himwith his brother.
(11:42):
So he leaves and goes to thesouth of France where he has a
house, and the uh woman whomaintains his house has brought
him a woman, Aurelia, who isPortuguese and speaks no
English, and neither of themreally speak French.
So he falls in love with Aureliabecause she's pretty.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
Also, she likes tries to save his manuscript.
SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah, which he's typing out in the open air.
And it blows into the water andblows into the water and she
takes off her clothes to go getit.
SPEAKER_01 (12:12):
Right, right, right.
So she gets naked to save hismanuscript.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (12:16):
I mean, who could blame him?
SPEAKER_00 (12:17):
Well, and she's got a tattoo like right above her uh
her tailbone.
So, you know, that's classy.
SPEAKER_01 (12:27):
Classy.
SPEAKER_00 (12:28):
Well, you know, also whatever.
SPEAKER_01 (12:32):
I mean, it's classy that he's turned on by that.
I mean, like, whatever.
She can have a tattoo wherevershe wants.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (12:39):
Then there's Harry, who is played by Alan Rickman,
Karen, played by Emma Thompson,who is his wife, and Mia, who I
don't know who she's played by,who is the secretary or the
administrative assistant ofHarry.
Harry is the boss at company.
It is unclear what the companydoes because they don't do
(12:59):
anything remotely professional.
It doesn't matter.
SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
It's not the point.
SPEAKER_00 (13:06):
So uh yeah, when we first see them at work, Mia is
coming in and said, Sarah'sready for you.
Sarah is played by Laura Linney,and Sarah comes in for a meeting
with Harry, and Harry's like, sowhen are you gonna jump the
bones of Carl?
The other guy works here.
Like, that's I mean, he doesn'tsay that directly, but he says,
so when are you gonna tell himthat you want to get married and
have all the sex and babies?
(13:26):
Like, at work.
Now, I don't know employment lawin the UK.
I don't, but I suspect shit likethat is frowned upon.
Yes.
Anyway, Mia is young and verysexy and has made it clear that
she really, really wants to getin Harry's pants.
(13:50):
And like, you know, Alan Rickmanwas Alan Rickman, but WTF.
So Karen is um a stay-at-homeparent and is awesome, but she's
also appropriately aged forHarry.
Although Harry is older thanKaren, and Harry is older than
(14:11):
Mia.
So Mia basically manipulatesHarry into buying her, not even
manipulates, she basically justtells him, like, I want
something pretty for Christmas.
And you can have anything youwant if you do that for me.
And so he buys her a necklace.
SPEAKER_01 (14:28):
From Mr.
Bean.
SPEAKER_00 (14:29):
From Mr.
Bean, yes.
And uh Karen finds it.
He comes home late.
She's like, Where were you?
He's like, Can't a man have anysecrets?
And she checks in his jacket andfinds the necklace and thinks
it's a Christmas gift for her.
And then when she actually opensher Christmas gift from him and
it's a Joni Mitchell CD, becausethey had had a conversation
about Joni Mitchell, about howmuch she loves Joni Mitchell,
(14:50):
she realizes that he gave it tosomeone else.
She says to him later, like,What would you do in my
situation when your husband hasgiven a necklace to someone
else?
Do you wait around to find outif it was just a necklace or
necklace in sex or necklace andlove, knowing forever that your
life is a little bit worse?
And he says, Oh, I've been sucha fool.
(15:10):
And she's like, Yes, but you'vemade a fool of me too.
You've made a fool of my lifeand all of my choices.
Karen's older brother, whichdoesn't make any sense because
Emma Thompson is older than HughGrant, who plays her older
brother.
SPEAKER_01 (15:26):
I mean, actors and characters are not always the
same age.
SPEAKER_00 (15:30):
Yes.
But so Karen's older brother,David, who is the prime
minister, the new primeminister, which also this is not
how things work, becauseelections in England are in May.
SPEAKER_01 (15:45):
Well, maybe it was a snap election.
Like maybe it was one of thoseno confidence votes and the
other guy lost.
SPEAKER_00 (15:50):
Possibly.
Anyway, so Karen's brother, newrecently elected prime minister,
is David.
He is single and he has juststarted, he's just arrived at 10
Downing Street.
He's introduced to his newstaff, and Natalie, who is the
catering manager, is played byMartine McCutcheon, who is a
soap opera star in the UK.
(16:12):
And so she is just adorable andlike immediately charms him by
saying, like, oh no, I thought Iwas gonna say like some shit.
And then she's like, oh no, I'vejust said shit on my first day,
because it's also her first day.
So he is immediately smitten.
The president of the UnitedStates, played by Billy Bob
(16:34):
Thornton, comes and he is uhlike a combination of Bill
Clinton and George W.
Bush.
David catches the presidenttrying to kiss her and then
immediately goes to a pressconference where David like
basically cuts the America offat the knees, which is not how
(16:56):
international diplomacy works.
I mean I mean which was not howinternational diplomacy worked
in 2003.
He then also has Nina Sosania,who is um in Good Omens and you
know Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (17:15):
She plays Nina.
SPEAKER_00 (17:16):
Yeah.
And also one of the sisters ofthe Chattering Order.
Yes.
Has her, who is his chief ofstaff, move her because now he's
uncomfortable with her, becauseit's her fault that the
president of the United Stateswas trying to kiss her.
Yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
And then she also has mentionedthat she dumped her ex-boyfriend
(17:39):
because he told her she wasgetting fat and he offered to
have his Secret Service orwhatever they call it in England
kill him.
Train killers phone call away.
Cute.
It's adorable.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
That's adorable courtship right there.
SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
Like it would be one of those if he didn't actually
have those on call.
That would be possible.
Flirtation.
I don't know.
I don't know.
On Christmas Eve, he is lookingthrough the Christmas cards he
received.
He got one from her where sheapologizes.
She apologizes.
For being the object ofaffection of a rival head of
(18:16):
state?
Yes, saying that she is his.
Oh, how sweet.
And so he goes off to find her.
She had said that she lived inthe dodgy end of Wandsworth or
wherever it was.
And she just said which street.
So he's on the street knockingall doors.
On every single door, likesinging Carols.
Because, you know, it's notpossible that they keep, you
(18:38):
know, employment records.
Employment records.
He's got train killers that hecould call, like one phone call,
but he can't Google.
But he can't get Natalie'saddress.
Yes, knock on doors.
(18:59):
She's on her way to her her uhkid brother's nativity play.
And so he ends up going withthem.
And he doesn't want to be seenthere because then, you know,
sleazy politician at a kid'snativity play.
She's like, no, no, no.
Well, this is my old school.
I know where we can hide.
They hide backstage, notrealizing the curtain's gonna
come up at the end of it, andthey're kissing at that point.
(19:22):
And so, whoo! Hi there.
That would be an internationalincident.
Well, I mean, she is British.
It's the same.
SPEAKER_01 (19:29):
It would still be an incident.
It was the same play as theother storyline, too, right?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (19:36):
Yeah.
You're getting to that?
It was the same play that Karenand Harry's kids were were at,
right?
So there's Daniel and Sam.
So Daniel played by Liam Neesonand his stepson Sam.
At the beginning, Daniel's wife,Joanna, has just died.
Daniel and Karen, so it's EmmaThompson's character, are very
(19:59):
close friends.
So Daniel is, of course, likegrieving.
And he's also, Sam is 11 yearsold, and he's just not sure how
to be a parent to Sam.
He's trying really hard, butJoanna was the one who handled
the emotional stuff.
And Sam is withdrawn and in hisroom all the time.
(20:22):
And so he finally was like,okay, I gotta find out what's
going on.
Like, is it just mom or is theresomething else going on?
Is he being bullied?
Is it drugs?
What's going on?
And Sam finally confides in himand he says, I'm in love.
And Daniel's like, Oh, thankGod.
I thought it was somethingworse.
And Sam's like, worse?
There's something worse thanthis all consuming feeling.
(20:45):
Oh, puppy.
Yeah.
And so this is actually in someways the best of the storylines,
but not.
Daniel really does a lovely jobof parenting this kid and trying
to help him understand and likenavigate this love.
(21:08):
The kid that he's in love with,her name is also Joanna, same as
his mother.
And so they are like watchingromantic movies and talking
about love and all of that.
The problem is Daniel is nottelling Sam to just go talk to
her.
So Sam comes up with this ideaof like, oh, like women love
(21:29):
musicians and she's singing atthis uh concert.
And you know, if I learn to playan instrument and play it
perfectly, she'll pay attentionto me.
Which is just like, what?
So he learns the drums and playswhile Joanna sings All I Want
for Christmas is you.
And so, and then Joanna ismoving back to America that same
(21:52):
night.
Christmas Eve, Christmas Eve,right after she finishes singing
the song.
And so that's what happens.
And so they follow her to theairport and he misses her, and
the flight is being called.
And so Sam like runs through theairport, like and is like being
chased by security, so he can gogo see her.
(22:13):
He catches her right as she'sabout to get on the plane, and
she's like, Sam, and she's like,and he says, You know who I am?
He's just like, Yeah, I'vealways known who you are.
And it's like, if you had talkedto her.
And Daniel, why the hell didn'tyou tell him to talk to her?
So there's that.
(22:33):
There's Sarah, played by LauraLinney, who is in love with
Carl, played by, I don't know,someone gorgeous, um, who is she
is an employee at Harry's firm,where who knows what they do at
Harry's firm other than getinvolved in each other's lives.
She has been in love with Carlfor the three years that she's
worked there, has never saidanything to him.
(22:55):
Harry is getting way tooinvolved and telling Sarah you
should tell Carl that you wantto marry him and have babies.
Sarah keeps getting phone callsat all hours, where she keeps
saying, like, hey, babe, no, no,I'm not busy.
I can talk.
Sarah finally dances with Carlat the office party, and Carl
(23:15):
drives her home.
They are kissing, and things aremoving along nicely.
And she gets a call and shestops in the middle of things
and talks, and you hear more,and the person on the other end
sounds a little off.
Get off the phone, she explainsthat the person on the other end
is her immensely ill brother,Michael.
(23:37):
She and her brother came toEngland with their parents.
Their parents died, and she isthe only person left to take
care of Michael.
And so she feels obligated toanswer his phone calls, and he
truly is not connected withreality.
And so he calls right back.
And Carl asks, Will he be betterif you answer?
(24:01):
And she says, No.
And he says, Then why don't younot answer?
And she's like, I have to.
And then he gets up and puts hisclothes on and leaves.
Nice.
Which is like, what?
What?
She dodged a bullet.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Then there's Colin who decidesthat because he's British,
American girls will love hisaccent.
(24:22):
And that's why he's striking outin America.
He goes to Milwaukee.
No, he's striking out inBritain.
Thank you.
He's striking out in Britain.
He goes to Milwaukee, whereimmediately he goes to the
nearest bar.
He immediately meets threeunbelievably hot women who
instantly fall for his accent.
They invite him home wherethey're joined by their fourth
roommate, who's the hot one.
(24:43):
And um I have I have things tosay.
And then there's John and Judy.
John played by Martin Freeman.
Uh, they're professionalstand-ins for films.
The film they're standing in foris some sort of porn.
Porn?
I don't know, because they aretalking to each other.
They're they're like very basicchatting about like traffic and
(25:08):
what they're doing for theholidays and things like that.
While super sexual things arehappening around us.
Yes.
And so and they're very like shyabout each other.
And in they are the most healthyrelationship of the film.
And then there's an epilogue ofa month later showing everyone
arriving at an airport becauseit begins and ends in an
(25:31):
airport.
So I have to tell you, myhusband, who had not seen this
movie, wandered in while I waswatching this.
And he's just like, what isthis?
And then like the music'splaying.
He's like, this music isannoying.
And then he's like, what thehell?
Colin Firth is in this.
Why the hell is Alan Rickman inthis?
Like Emma Thompson should beashamed of herself.
(25:56):
Oh.
So let me start with the goodpart.
There are some things that Ithink are kind of lovely about
this, and that I think whatRichard Curtis was trying to do,
and that I think he did well,which is show that there are
lots of different types of love.
And like the voice over thebeginning, Hugh Grant's David is
(26:17):
saying is like love actually isall around us.
And so while the focus is onromantic love, there are
examples of many different typesof love.
So there is like the lovebetween parent and child with
Daniel and Sam.
And then the fact that it's astepparent is, I think,
(26:40):
especially poignant.
Poignant.
Yeah.
And even though I am like sofrustrated that Daniel is not
saying, like, you should talk toher.
How about I have a party and youhave all your friends over and
you can invite her so that youhave an opportunity to talk to
(27:01):
her, which would be a much morehealthy way of dealing with
this, his unrequited crush.
I'm really frustrated by that.
2003 Daniel is working with thescripts that men had, right,
even as recently as 20 yearsago.
Right.
(27:21):
So, like, he's like, whenthere's a night where Sam can't
sleep.
And so he's like, all right, youknow what?
We need Kate and we need Leo.
And so they're watching Titanic.
And they're talking about thelove story in Titanic.
So he's giving him what he'sgot.
And he's telling him the storyof his love story with Sam's
(27:44):
mother.
And like, you see, there's theconnection between them.
And like sometimes it's ickybecause he's saying, like, well,
Joanna was the one for me.
There's not going to be anyoneelse.
But, you know, if there is,you're going to have to move out
right away because we're goingto want to shag in every single
room in this house, includingyours, which is so gross.
SPEAKER_01 (28:05):
It's why would you say that to an 11-year-old?
SPEAKER_00 (28:07):
It's so gross.
And like, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,ew.
But it's also like Daniel'sdoing the best that he can.
Because we've also seen Karensay to him, like, you need to
stop crying.
Don't be a sissy.
No one's going to want to shagyou if you cry all the time.
So like there's this likeundercurrent of like that's the
(28:32):
humor that they're swimming in.
I judge Richard Curtis for usingthat humor, but I'm not judging
Daniel for it, because that'swhat that's what he knows.
Okay.
So like there's that.
Then there's um Sarah, LauraLinney's love for her brother,
(28:53):
who can't reciprocate in a wayshe has to give and doesn't
receive exactly.
Although after Carl leaves, shegets up and goes to Michael's
facility, and she gives him agift, and they're they're having
a conversation.
And he at one point tries,Michael tries to hit her, and
(29:15):
one of the nurses comes andstops him, and she says, Please
don't do that, my darling.
They have a conversation, yousee them hugging.
And so he gives back as best hecan.
But that love is so important aswell.
So you do see the love.
And even like Karen and Daniel,the friendship between them,
(29:37):
it's icky, like that humor.
And like it's one of those, likeI could call you like the
greatest compliment you evergave me was to call me a
subversive bitch.
Right.
But but someone else can't callme that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
Well, and also like the relationship between Karen
and Daniel is not icky.
The masculinity and theunderstanding of what is
acceptable masculinity thatinforms that friendship that
Karen's character reinforceswith that joke is icky.
Yeah.
(30:18):
Like I feel like that's animportant nuance.
SPEAKER_00 (30:20):
Yeah.
Definitely.
And then the love between BillyMack and Joe is like the fact
that he says, You're the love ofmy fucking life.
When he realizes that the personhe most wants to spend time with
is this person he's beeninsulting the entire time.
(30:42):
That really like I find thatmoving.
I find that really moving when Iwatch it.
And he makes a like a commentabout how like there were young
women there who are willing todo anything.
And he's like consistently beencrass and icky about women as
objects.
(31:03):
And women are objects all up,down, and throughout this film.
Yeah.
And this doesn't change the factthat he thinks of women as
objects, but he recognizes thatwhat's important to him is this
person that he has created alife with, even though it is not
(31:23):
a traditional life in any way,shape, or form.
SPEAKER_01 (31:26):
Honestly, in some ways, it actually reifies the
women as objects because herealized that he doesn't need
objects.
He needs a human being.
And Joe is a human being, andthese women are not.
SPEAKER_00 (31:36):
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
So that gets me to the Juliet,Peter, and Mark.
And watching it this time,because I do love romance novels
(31:58):
and I read a lot of them, and Ilove me a good pining storyline.
I like mutual pining.
Yeah.
As I was watching it this time,I was thinking, like, up until
she shows up at his apartment, Ikind of feel like, okay, has he
done anything wrong?
(32:19):
Like, it's not his fault that hefell for someone who's not
available.
It's not his fault he fell forhis best friend's fiance's and
wife.
It happens, you know, like youcan't help who you're attracted
to, who you feel for.
And what he has done is tried todistance himself from her, both
(32:39):
as self-preservation and also tokind of preserve his friendship
with Peter.
The video he took at the weddingis kind of creepy.
Like, why did he take that?
SPEAKER_01 (32:52):
Yes.
And I think that the implicationthat I think we are meant to
interpret is that he didn't evenmean to.
Like he was taking video.
But because he was so in lovewith her, like he kept being
drawn to her.
And that that it wasn't likethat's my recollection of that,
is that it was almost like inthe way that she is discovering,
(33:13):
oh, you're in love with me.
Like he kind of like the videois Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (33:18):
So it's not a creeper thing, it's just the
process of discovery.
SPEAKER_01 (33:22):
Yeah.
That's I think that's the waywe're meant to interpret it.
Not that he's like taking thisvideo so he can watch it later
or whatever and do whatever itis that he does with it.
But rather, like he was taking avideo of his best friend's
wedding.
And because he's in love withthe bride, like she ends up
being the focus of everything.
That's what I think we're meantto interpret.
SPEAKER_00 (33:41):
So at that point, like all of that, and he's like,
he's anguished afterwards.
So like all of that I can feelfor him.
Like he's really in an untenablesituation.
But to then go to her and say,like, my heart belongs to you.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
And even like the way with the cards, like tell
him that it's Carolers, right?
Like, so he's forcing her tohave a secret from her husband.
SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
And he also like it's again, it's all about looks
because he says, Next year, I'msure I will be dating these
girls.
And he has like taken picturesof like models.
But in the meantime, just knowthat and just because it's
Christmas, and at Christmas youtell the truth, you know, my
(34:33):
wasted heart will love you untiland then he has a picture of a
mummy because it's about looks.
Because that is that why heloves her?
Because she's gorgeous?
Because she's Kira freakingnightly.
What?
And so, and at that point itgoes from like, this is
understandable, like this is anunfortunate situation that he's
(34:54):
in.
That man, that sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (34:57):
To like, boy, you're betraying your best friend, and
putting the woman that you claimto love in a very uncomfortable
situation.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
Yeah.
Which she then rewards him bykissing him.
Mm-hmm.
Ew.
Ew.
Yeah.
So it's gross.
It's really gross.
And then that gets to like thelook-ism aspect of it.
So there's so much love at firstsight because David sees Natalie
(35:25):
and immediately, like, now sheis charming in addition to being
gorgeous.
Like their first interaction isadorable because she's hilarious
and charming.
But it's all of a minute and ahalf.
And he gets into his office andgoes, Well, that's inconvenient.
(35:46):
And like, okay, you're smitten.
And okay, that's inconvenient,but like it's what?
And then same thing with Jamieand Aurelia.
Like he sees her body, and allof a sudden, like, oh, I want to
like he ends up marrying herafter an acquaintance of three
(36:10):
weeks, during which time theyhave had not a single
conversation because they don'tspeak each other's languages.
Because that's a good idea.
That ain't love.
Yeah.
That's lust.
That is not love.
And he had just broken up withthe girlfriend he lived with.
SPEAKER_01 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:26):
Because she cheated on him.
With his brother.
Yeah, that's gross.
Like, no therapist worth theirsalt would be okay with that.
So, like, what?
It's just all of this undergirdsRichard Curtis's idea that love
is about looks.
SPEAKER_01 (36:48):
It's interesting.
I think Richard Curtis seems tothink that there is like it's
almost like when we did thePrincess Bride episode and you
talked about how literal youwere and how that you thought
there was like an actual thingthat was like true love, capital
T, capital L.
Richard Curtis believes in thattoo.
I think he genuinely believesthat.
And like you can feel it when ithappens, and it happens really
(37:11):
quickly.
And if you believe in that, thenit has to be based on looks.
Because what else could itpossibly be based on if it
happens in a moment and you knowit's capital T, capital L.
It's like by taking on thatidea, which is said in the mouth
of the widower, Daniel, like shewas my one.
(37:35):
Like you back yourself, youpaint yourself into a corner
where looks are the only thing.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
Well, except that then you get John and Judy, who
because they can talk to eachother while doing extremely
awkward things, because they'restand-ins for like right, porn
star porn.
And Curtis included them becauseit's funny.
SPEAKER_01 (37:58):
Are we meant to think, though, that that's like
a love that built over time, orthat they also had that feeling
and just were too shy to act onit?
I don't know.
I honestly don't know.
It's interesting too, though,because I think Curtis, at the
same time as that he's paintedhimself into this corner, he
recognizes that it's bullshit,at least to some degree, because
(38:18):
he included the storyline withAlan Rickman and Emma Thompson's
character and the secretary,right?
Which we are definitely meant tosee that Rickman fucked up when
he followed lust and looks.
Yeah.
Like we are meant to judge himfor that.
Because Emma Thompson's amazingand age appropriate.
(38:40):
Like, like I definitely thinkthat we are we are meant to
think he fucked up.
We're we're meant to understandwhy he did.
Like, because of course, when ayoung, pretty girl's throwing
herself at you, you act on it.
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Oh, that's but you shouldn't.
That's another thing that Ibecause I looked up the ages of
the actors.
So Hugh Grant is 16 years olderthan Martine McCutcheon.
Colin Firth is 16 years olderthan the woman playing Aurelia.
I think Kira Knightley was 17and so was much younger than
both the man playing her husbandand the man playing Mark.
SPEAKER_01 (39:13):
What about Rickman and the secretary, the admin?
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (39:18):
I think that's was like uh more than 20 years.
More than 20 years, yeah.
So that is also in there, too,is like the youth and beauty
aspect of it as well.
SPEAKER_01 (39:29):
And it it's yeah, it's really there's a degree to
which we it sort of seems likeCurtis wants to push back on it
while reifying it.
The same with like the fatshaming with David's love
interest.
Like he's pushing back on itbecause she's beautiful and
obviously he cares about her.
(39:50):
It doesn't matter that she's gotthick thighs or whatever it is
that Nina says about it.
But like it's one of those likecake eat it too moments, you
know, where he gets to includethis fat shaming and then claim
that he's like pushing back onit because she gets the man in
the end, but like, what theactual fuck?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:10):
Well, and that's not the only fat shaming.
SPEAKER_01 (40:13):
Right, because Joe is like, I know Bill Nai.
Bill?
Billy Mack, played by Bill Nike.
Billy Mack like repeatedly callsJoe fat and slovenly and yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:24):
Aurelia's sister is fat and she talks about it in
Portuguese.
And then when Jamie comes backto ask for Aurelia's hand in
marriage, he goes to her houseand he meets the sister, and the
dad is like, sure, and bringsthe sister out.
(40:45):
And he's like, No, your otherdaughter.
Because why would anyone want tomarry a fat girl?
And then there's a point, likethey all go together to find
Aurelia because she's a waitressat a w restaurant, so she's at
work.
At one point, like the sister'slike, You're gonna let Aurelia
do this.
She doesn't even know this man.
And the dad goes, like, shut up,Miss Dunkin' Donuts 2003.
(41:06):
Nice.
Yeah.
And like the thing is, thesister isn't even that big.
Like, she's what fat activistswould call small fat.
SPEAKER_01 (41:16):
Right.
And the girl, the woman whoplays the I can't remember her
name, but the David's Love andLove Interest isn't even small
fat.
No, she's she's straight-sized.
She's just, yeah.
She's just not not extra small.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's problematic.
unknown (41:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (41:37):
Well, it tells me, because people I've seen memes
lately talking about like howfucked up the early 2000s were
about body image and body shame.
Which like I lived through it,and so of course I knew, but I
wasn't a teenager.
That's not to say I wasn'taffected by it, but it I'm
(41:59):
thankfully I wasn't 14.
And yeah, it was it was a mess.
So there were also some likeasides that were some kind of
gross.
There was one point where BillyMack is on a radio interview
where he's just talkinghonestly.
He's just like, Yeah, the song'scrap.
I'm just doing it to make money.
(42:19):
And they're like, Oh wow, you'rebeing honest.
He's like, Yeah, I'll answer anyquestion, honestly.
He's like, Okay, best shag youever had is Britney Spears.
Now, in 2003, Bill Nye was inhis 50s.
Britney Spears was just over 20.
Yeah.
I mean, she's younger than me.
And uh then he goes, Oh, I'mkidding.
(42:40):
She was rubbish.
Gross.
And like, especially now thatwe're like in retrospect
thinking about how we as asociety treated Britney Spears,
it's like, it's really awful.
So, like, ew.
It's just there's a lot inthere.
And that I'm reminded of that interms of like the fat shaming
(43:02):
because of the way that wetreated Brittany Spears and her
body and any woman who was whohad the audacity to actually be
a human being with a body andnot just a plastic, yeah, you
know, mannequin.
Yeah.
I do want to talk about likewhat Christmas means, because
this is like a Christmas movie.
SPEAKER_01 (43:21):
It's a self-consciously a Christmas
movie.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And we have the in love best mansay at Christmas We Tell the
Truth.
Which what?
We have I know I'm Jewish, but Ididn't know that was like part
of the holiday.
(43:43):
Who said that?
I actually think it's kind ofthe opposite.
Like, oh yeah, this fruit cake'sdelicious.
Yeah.
Right.
I'm like, don't we?
SPEAKER_00 (43:50):
Oh yeah, I love, I love this sweater.
Don't we?
Well, and don't we don't we lieto children about like a fat
beard man coming down thechimney?
An actual fat man.
Flying, flying deer.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (44:05):
It's not it's not a truth-the truth-telling holiday.
Not a truth-telling holiday.
Yeah, what?
That's something that I findreally interesting.
And because we're Jewish, wegrew up with Christmas because
our dad wasn't.
SPEAKER_01 (44:21):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (44:22):
Right.
I'm a sucker for Christmas.
I don't celebrate it anymorebecause it didn't work with my
life.
Like, I love Christmas, but I amJewish and I just, it just
didn't work.
But I am a sucker for like allthe the sappy Hallmark Christmas
stuff.
And so, like, you know, themeaning of Christmas, the spirit
(44:44):
of Christmas.
So, like, I remember just beinglike, the first time I saw this,
being like, and at Christmas youtell the truth.
And I'm like, Yeah.
And I'm like, but since then,I'm like, that's not a thing.
It's not a thing.
It's not a thing.
SPEAKER_01 (44:59):
I do think that Billy Mac's realization that
Christmas is about being withthe people that you care about.
Yes.
That does seem to be in linewith the spirit of Christmas, as
I understand it.
Yes.
And like Sarah's story wherewith her brother.
SPEAKER_00 (45:16):
Yeah, with her brother, where Carl's saying,
like, will it make him better ifyou answer the phone?
And she says, No.
And he says, Well, maybe don'tanswer it and you know, keep
doing fun, sexy stuff with me.
And she's like, I can't do that.
That's the meaning of Christmas.
Because for her, being there forher brother is far more
(45:36):
important than like extremelyhot Carl head of design.
Especially since, like, what thefuck is wrong with you, Carl?
You know, like your dick canwait.
Seriously.
(45:57):
And that to me is becausethere's a lot of consumerism in
this movie, too.
Well, because Billy Mack isabout he wants to sell this this
Christmas song, and he's likeclear that this is like
bullshit.
And Harry buys that expensivenecklace.
It's like 275 pounds, which Idon't know the direct exchange
(46:22):
rate, but that's expensive.
So there's like a consumerismaspect to this film.
But what is it that likeChristmas really means?
And like I feel like that's justanother the at Christmas you
tell the truth, that'sself-serving.
That's not real.
SPEAKER_01 (46:40):
That's not totally self-serving.
It's actually underscores yourpoint that that he didn't do
anything egregiously wrong untilthat moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, I don't want to spendtoo long here because we're
really running short on time,but the consumerism piece of it,
I think there is a degree towhich the meaning of Christmas
(47:03):
that Curtis is trying to giveus, I put that in quotes, is
trying to skewer that to adegree, right?
Because we see how crass BillyMack is.
He's straight up about it.
And even like the way, like whenHarry buys the necklace, the
Rowan Atkinson is the clerk andlike has this ridiculous ritual
for wrapping it, which ishilarious in my memory.
(47:23):
And I think that is also meantto skewer sort of the status and
consumerism of the purchase,right?
Because and it's funny becauseHarry's like, just give it to
me, just give it to me.
Like, because it's slowing himdown because he's buying it for
his would-be mistress.
But I think there is a degree towhich the movie is trying to
sort of skewer that consumerismand like gimme, gimme, gimme of
(47:47):
that can come sometimes comewith the holiday.
I don't know how effectively itskewers it, but just noting, I
was just thinking about thatwhen you talked about consumers.
Yeah.
And the and the and thenecklace.
Anyway, any final points youwant to make before I try and
wrap us up?
Milwaukee is not like that.
SPEAKER_00 (48:07):
Those girls don't sound like they're from
Milwaukee, and we're not thateasily impressed.
We're not that dumb.
Okay.
And that is not what theMilwaukee airport looks like.
They didn't even have arecombobulation area.
Okay.
Well, in 2003 they probablydidn't.
(48:28):
We weren't taking our shoes offyet.
Yes, we were, because the shoething was in 2001.
The shoe bomber.
Or 2002, rather, 2002.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
All right.
SPEAKER_01 (48:38):
Anyway.
So I have thoughts aboutMilwaukee.
Where Emily lives.
So Love Actually, a movie wehate to love.
So on the good side, this movieactually does portray multiple
types of love, not just romanticlove.
End of list.
(48:59):
That's what Emily said to mebefore we started.
That's the end of the list ofthe things it does well.
I don't think that actually is,but some of the things that are
like there, we also see amongthat list like this poignant
relationship between astepfather, widower, and his
stepson, which is he's doing thebest he can.
And also, like, why didn't youtell her to tell him to just
(49:20):
talk to the girl?
So, so that type of love isreally beautiful, dated now.
The relationship between theplatonic relationship between
that character, Liam NesumDaniel, and Emma Thompson's
Karen.
Karen also is beautiful.
Like this platonic relationshipwhere they really seem to care
(49:41):
about each other, which isinformed by, I name this, like
an understanding of masculinityand what is attractive in a man
that is like expressedsupposedly humorously by Karen
in ways that just don't do nothold up.
We see a lot of women as objectsin this movie, like not just
(50:04):
from Billy Mac, like just ingeneral.
Women are prizes and objects andsort of possessions to be
coveted.
We also see quite a bit of fatshaming that, like I think
Curtis was trying, maybebelieved at the time in 2003
that he was pushing back onthat, but in fact, like really
reified it in so many ways.
(50:27):
Not just with the person of theNatalie, of Natalie, the prime
minister, Hugh Grant's loveinterest, but also through Joe,
so a man who was fat, and alsothrough Aurelia, the Portuguese
woman's sister, who, oh my God,why would anybody want to marry
her?
So there's a lot of fat shamingthat's unfortunate in this
(50:48):
movie.
We got into a little bit of someinteresting questions about like
what actually is love and thisidea of like one person being
your everything that you canknow immediately with a capital
T, capital L true love, like inThe Princess Bride, which if you
believe that and that it happenssuper quickly, you kind of
default to it being about theway someone looks, because what
(51:08):
else could it possibly be basedon?
Which then Curtis paintedhimself into a corner that way
with that kind of understanding.
You push back on me on that alittle bit with the Martin
Freeman character, the twoStannins, which I still think
maybe is is in that samecategory, just those are two
very shy people.
So they needed this othermechanism in order to act on
(51:29):
this looks-based love at firstsight, which in some ways gets
pushed back against because weare meant to think that Alan
Rickman made a mistake, but inother ways, just over and over
and over again reified.
This movie has you askingquestions about like what does
Christmas really mean?
Like, what does this movie thinkChristmas really means?
We have the best friendcharacter with the cue cards
(51:52):
that has been like spoofed many,many times in culture since
then, who says that Christmas isabout telling the truth, which
no it really isn't.
No, that's not what Christmas isabout, at least not the way we
celebrate here in the US.
I think that was everything thatwe talked about.
We had a brief, like little talkabout like in that same vein of
(52:14):
what Christmas means, that itdoesn't mean consumerism.
And that's why Mr.
Bean is the guy representing theconsumerism.
But also, like maybe it kind ofdoes, because there's like a lot
about like money and gifts andstuff.
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (52:29):
So uh we talked a little bit about masculinity,
yes, and talked about how it's aproduct of its time, just just
in terms of masculinity and thefat shaming and even a sense of
what courtship looks like, yeah,yeah, very much so.
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
And also like the prime minister of England could
have found the woman's address.
Oh, yeah, just he just couldhave.
Yeah, he just could have.
Yeah.
So anyway, it was funnier tohave Hugh Grant like singing
good king whatever.
Yeah, yeah.
But yeah, anyway.
SPEAKER_00 (53:00):
Also, Milwaukee.
SPEAKER_01 (53:02):
Milwaukee.
Milwaukee is not the way it'sportrayed in this movie, folks.
So just remember that.
All right, well, we're gonnastay on this Christmas theme
next week when I bring you mydeep thoughts about gremlins.
Sounds good.
All right, talk then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(53:23):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes, or leave a positive
review so others can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
(53:43):
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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