Two things I love to do: fight and kiss boys!
This week, Emily revisits another of the silly Pygmalion movies from the Guy girls' childhood: Michael Gottlieb's 1987 film Mannequin, starring Kim Cattrall, Meshach Taylor, and Andrew McCarthy. While the story of an underemployed Philadelphia artist who falls in love with a department store mannequin is as insubstantial as dandelion fluff, the film slipped some delightfully subversive and progressive gay representation into the movie with the character of Hollywood Montrose, played to flamboyant-but-fleshed-out perfection by Meshach Taylor. Not only is this one of the few movies of the era to allow a gay character to have a romantic and sexual life (off-screen, unfortunately), but Gottlieb's script allows Hollywood to be a hero, friend, and integral part of the plot of the film. Additionally, the scene where Hollywood holds off the police-coded bad guys using a firehose is both hilarious and historically powerful, making it even more impactful by being included in an unserious romcom.
Be careful! If you stand very still while you listen, someone might think you're a mannequin.
Mentioned in this episode:
Hollywood Montrose: Mannequin's Gay Hero
https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/mannequin-1987
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And that's one of the things like why I love Kim
Cattrall is you get theimpression that she is
uncompromising.
All of her characters feel likethey got moxie.
They're uncompromising, likeeven in these silly little like
romantic comedies, in thisridiculous Egyptian beginning.
She's like I want all thesewonderful things and you feel
(00:22):
like you know what?
I got a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I want all these wonderful things and you feel
like you know what.
I got a lot of them.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1987 film Mannequin with mysister, tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's dive in.
So, tracy, I know you've seenthis movie, but tell me what's
(01:06):
in your head about Mannequin?
With my sister, tracyGuy-Decker, and with you, let's
dive in.
So, tracy, I know you've seenthis movie, but tell me what's
in your head about Mannequin.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I mean, I know I've seen this movie, but maybe not
since 87.
It's been like a really longtime.
My recollection is that a goodlooking dude I don't remember
the actor, but I remember likingthe way that he looked was a
window dresser or something,somehow worked with mannequins
and fell in love with one inparticular, and then she becomes
real.
So, as we noted at the end oflast episode a Pygmalion story I
(01:35):
have vague memory of a Blackgay best friend, and that's
really it.
That's what I got for this film, like that's all there is in
terms of Furniture of the Mind.
I mean, it was on the list andso, and I was like, oh yeah,
kind of sort Okay, but I knew itwasn't one I was going to lean
on.
So tell me, though, why are wetalking about it?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So we are recording this on June 22nd, so still in
the midst of Pride Month, andoriginally, actually, according
to our schedule, we were goingto record Overboard and I was
like I can't do it, I cannot doit.
That movie is very problematiceven in my memory and so I.
Actually it's because of the gayblack best friend played by
(02:19):
Meshach Taylor, who I alsoremember fondly from Designing
Women, anthony Bouvier.
We should put that on the list.
I remember just adoringHollywood Montrose, the
character that he played.
He had the most amazing outfits.
(02:39):
His glasses were these funky80s-tastic glasses.
His clothes were amazing.
He was hilarious, he wasflamboyant, but he was not the
joke, he was a real person and Ijust remember always loving
(03:01):
when he was on screen and he wasa great friend to.
It was Andrew McCarthy'sJonathan, and so, because it's
Pride Month, I was thinkingabout like I loved that
character.
Does he hold up?
Because Meshach Taylor wasn'tqueer as far as I know, you know
he was married to a woman.
He sadly passed away about 10years ago.
(03:24):
Know, you know he was marriedto a woman.
He sadly passed away about 10years ago, and so I was like so
was this a good representation?
Do I remember it well?
Or is this just my childhoodmemory of a flamboyant character
?
Or is this, you know, like 80s,rosy, rosy, rose colored
glasses?
And, honestly, I didn't havehigh hopes for it, because this
is a ridiculous premise.
(03:44):
And, honestly, I didn't havehigh hopes for it, because this
is a ridiculous premise.
It's ridiculous.
Critics hated it and I watchedit last night and, oh my God,
this movie is surprisingly great.
It is surprisingly wonderful.
It reminded me like I love KimCattrall, like I really do
Everything she has been in.
She is not an actor that I goto for, like gravitas exactly,
(04:11):
but everything she's in is justa delight.
She's got moxie, yeah, and likeI'm reminded of.
I think I've talked beforeabout how the reboot of Sex and
the City is dead to me Becauseshe's not in it.
It's not because she's not init, it's because of how they
wrote her out of it, because hercharacter was ride or die for
(04:36):
her friends and the way theywrote her out of it was that she
got her feelings hurt and wouldnot speak to them again, just
wrote them off.
Yeah, and so, and it's like youknow what there are many ways
that you can write a characteroff where she's still ride or
die for her friends and like I'msorry, no, don't do Kim
Cattrall like that, don't doSamantha Jones like that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
No, all right.
All right, let's talk about.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Mannequin.
Let's talk about Mannequin.
So part of what's fantasticabout this movie is, yes,
Hollywood is a lot ofstereotypes and very flamboyant,
but in service of a fullyformed character who is allowed
to have romantic and sexualrelationships.
Not on screen, 1987 was notquite prepared for that, but
(05:30):
still he talks openly about hisrelationship and other people
are encouraging him about themand talk to him about his
relationship and what he can doto encourage his relationship
with his on-a-gun, off-a-gunboyfriend is Albert.
He is heroic and loyal to hisfriends and in a lot of ways he
is the hero with agency in thisfilm and he is the only
(05:52):
character brought back for theexecrable sequel.
It's terrible.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They made a second Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But if you fast forward to the parts with
Hollywood, that's worth watching.
So that is quite amazing.
And then, as I said, it's aPygmalion story.
But it fixes the problems withPygmalion stories because Kim
Cattrall's character, emmy, isnotxy-yesterday creation who
(06:27):
comes alive because her creatorfalls in love with her.
Her creator does fall in lovewith her, but she is actually a
4,000-year-old muse who has comealive in artistic creations
over and over and over againover these 4,000 years when she
has felt something for an artistwho has fallen in love with his
(06:48):
creation because she is lookingfor her true love.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's really interesting.
So she's not, I think,Pygmalion, I think Born Sexy
Yesterday, unless it's likeEliza Doolittle, I suppose.
But it's really interestingthat instead of that, she is a
muse.
That's really cool, Although Iwill say I think there's this
sort of like if we think aboutLeeloo from Fifth Element.
(07:13):
She was also an ancient being,yes, and still born sexy
yesterday, yes, and even WonderWoman we talked about.
Wonder Woman had that sort oflike.
There is a sense of ancientwisdom that comes along with
Born Sexy Yesterday, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And I think in some ways, emmy, well, we'll get to
it, we'll talk about that, we'lltalk about that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Sure, so why don't you remind me of what happened,
since I have so little actualplot in my head?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So the film starts in ancient Egypt.
It says I can't remember.
It's like Elfu, egypt,thousands of years ago.
Oh, so she's not a Greek notfrom Greek mythology.
No, she is.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Egyptian Kim.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Cattrall is Egyptian.
Blonde haired, blue eyed, kimCattrall is Egyptian.
It is surprisingly fantastic.
That doesn't mean it's withoutproblems.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm with you.
So it kind of sets the scenefor how ridiculous it's going to
(08:24):
be.
Because it says, like thesubtitle says, el arranged to
marry because Emmy has turneddown all of her suitors and this
is the last one who'sinterested in marrying her and
he is a camel dung salesman.
Because she's turned down thejeweler, she's turned down the I
can't remember what they allare and so Emmy is praying to
(08:45):
the gods, saying please get meout of this.
And so there's a strike oflightning and Emmy disappears.
Then we go into an animationwith music that shows an
animation of Emmy going throughhistory and appearing to artists
and coming alive from their art.
Now I will admit, even lastnight I have trouble paying
(09:08):
attention to this animationbecause it's like, just for
whatever reason, like you changeformat and I'm like, oh, is
this the same story?
But it's basically showing thatshe has done this multiple
times throughout the intervening4,000 years.
Then we see it's Philadelphia,current day, which is 1987.
(09:29):
And we meet Jonathan Switcher,played by Andrew McCarthy.
He is working in a mannequinfactory, or I don't know exactly
how it works, and he isspeaking to a mannequin.
He says you know, you get morebeautiful every single day he
has created the head and torsoof a mannequin and he's like all
right, let's get you some limbs.
(09:49):
And he starts finding legs andarms for it.
The boss comes over and askshow it's going.
He's like oh, I think I'vereally got it now.
You know, it's only taken melike six days.
And I finally like, look, she'sperfect.
And he's like I think if I keepgoing at this rate, I can do
like three or four in a month.
He's like you're supposed to dothree or four in a week.
(10:10):
You're fired.
And then you see a montage ofhim getting fired from a bunch
of other jobs.
He then picks up his girlfriendRoxy from the Illustra giant
department store on his HarleyDavidson motorcycle.
She is horribly embarrassedthat he's picking her up in
something with outdoors and allof her co-workers are like
(10:32):
making fun of her that she'sbeing picked up on a motorcycle
I mean, it's a harley, it's nota.
I know, you know little puttputter I mean okay, okay, all
right, but it's not.
It's not like a, anyway, it's alittle Harley, but still, okay.
Okay, all right, carry on.
They're not wearing helmets,which I have a problem with, but
(10:54):
anyway.
So they end up arguing.
She says I'm not coming homewith you.
You really need to figurethings out Like you have no
ambition, things out Like youhave no ambition.
We learned that Jonathan isactually a sculptor and he is
like chronically underemployedbecause there's not much call
for sculptors these days and itstarts raining.
(11:15):
So he's he and his motorcyclewon't start.
And so he's walking it down thestreet past a different
department store and he sees hismannequin in the window and he,
like, walks over to it and he'slike, oh, I know every artist
falls in love with theircreation, but you were the first
thing that really made him feellike an artist in a long, long
(11:35):
time.
And then he goes back to hismotorcycle and he's able to turn
it on and ride home and he'slike, wow, okay.
So the next morning he goesback to the window and he runs
into Estelle Getty's ClaireTimken, who is the owner of
Prince and Company.
It was her grandfather and herfather's store, so you know it's
(11:58):
been there for 100 years.
They're putting up a new signthat says 100 years years.
They're putting up a new signthat says 100 years and they're
chatting when the new sign fallsand Jonathan pushes her out of
the way and like, grabs the signand is like swinging from it
and saves her life.
And so she says, oh, mygoodness, young man, I owe you
(12:19):
my life, what can I do for you?
He's like well, I need a job.
And she's like what can you do?
And he's like I'll do anything.
So she brings him in,introduces him to the store
manager who we see, before theyget there, is on the phone with
BJ Wirt, who is the manager ofIllustra, and so is clearly in
cahoots with Illustra, who wantsto do a hostile takeover of
(12:40):
Prince and Company.
And so the manager of Illustrais played by James Spader in
like unctuous, greasy perfection.
I mean he is just having a ballchewing the scenery.
And so Claire says give thisyoung man a job.
And so he just makes him aclerk where he's putting
(13:01):
packages away.
Richards is the name of JamesSpader's character, so he uses
the job where he's puttingpackages away to.
Richards is the name of JamesSpader's character.
So he uses the job where he'sputting packages away to try to
find his mannequin and hestumbles into the window dresser
, hollywood Montrose, played byMeshach Taylor.
And because he's been lookingfor the mannequin, he's
(13:26):
accidentally walked into acouple of changing rooms, which
is not okay.
And Hollywood is like, oh, I'mso glad you're here.
Really, he's like, yeah, Inever thought they would hire
anyone stranger than me.
And so Hollywood ends up havingJonathan help him with window
dressing, and they are using hismannequin.
So, emmy, and so they get thewindow dressed.
(13:47):
Hollywood starts tellingJonathan about his troubles.
He and Albert have just brokenup and so, again, this is very
subversive in 1987.
Jonathan puts his arm aroundHollywood and says, like you
need to go home and get somerest.
You need to.
Because Hollywood's saying,like he said, my thighs are too
fat.
Does he think it's true?
And Jonathan's like I don'tknow anything about men's thighs
(14:09):
, but you know like you need toget some rest, you need to.
You know, like, take good careof yourself and is being a good
friend.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
When in 1987, it would have been perfectly normal
for a movie to be like ewnormal for a movie to be like ew
man, I don't know, or worse, orworse, you know, just like ew,
I don't want to talk about thatman.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
And so, once Hollywood leaves, he had put a
scarf around the mannequin'sneck and it has fallen.
And so Jonathan leans over andpicks it up and says oh so you
don't like your new scarf?
And Emmy comes alive and says,not, especially no.
And he, like, freaks out, notenough.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I have a vague memory of that he like, kind of like
backs up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah.
So she like wanders around thestores just talking to him,
tells him a little bit about youknow what's what's going on?
She says you remind me of myboyfriend Chris.
I told him the world was roundand then I never saw him again.
And together they end upcreating this like amazing
(15:14):
window dressing that brings ahuge number of people to the
store the next morning, which isanother aspect of the movie
that just like, seriously,window dressing is going to make
a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I feel like movies in general kind of gave us the
impression that that was like athing that people care a great
deal about.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So at some point that night he runs into and I am not
going to remember the characteror the actor's name so he runs
into the oh Felix, the overnightsecurity guard, who is a bigot
he's played by GW Bailey, whowas also the bad guy in the
Police Academy movies.
And so he runs into him.
He's like, oh, I'm helpingHollywood.
(15:55):
And he's like, oh, so the Maryhas an assistant.
So where do you all come from?
And so Jonathan says Ohio,no-transcript.
(16:58):
Jonathan, in trouble for thisamazing people, because people
are talking and it's Richard's,but Richard's also like talking
about both sides of his mouth,saying like I'll protect you.
To, uh, to Jonathan, Hollywood,who has met Jonathan the night
before but was Jonathan, waskind to him, shows up and says I
will go in and fight for you.
(17:20):
And, uh, he starts like, uh,he's like I didn't want to do
this.
But he starts like unbuttoninghis suit and Jonathan's like no,
I didn't want to do this.
But he starts like unbuttoninghis suit and Jonathan's like no,
I don't think it's that kind ofthing.
And he takes off his suit andunderneath it's a completely
conservative suit.
He's like that's hilarious.
And he's like please do nottell anyone.
You saw me like this.
I have an image to maintain.
(17:40):
So Claire Stelgetti says youknow this is ridiculous.
We're going to hold off on thediscussion about selling for
another six weeks.
We're going to see what happens.
People come to look at thesewindows, they stay to buy and
I'm promoting Jonathan tomanager of window dressing
basically Merchandising orwhatever.
So he's like I'm not sure I cando it because like I had help.
(18:04):
And she's like believe inyourself, it's fine.
So he starts working overnight.
Now Roxy, the girlfriend is toldto try to poach him.
So she takes him to lunch andhe tells her like what if I told
you I'd help?
She's like oh, that's fine,Bring him along.
And he says what if I told youit's a beautiful woman?
And she says that's okay, I'mnot jealous, even though they've
(18:28):
basically broken up at thispoint.
And he says no, I found a placewhere people care about me.
They like me for who I am.
I'm not leaving.
If there's anything that I am,it's loyal and so, no, I'm not
doing this.
So Roxy and Armand, who is oneof her co-workers who is
constantly sexually harassingher, sneak into the building at
(18:49):
night to try to get pictures ofwhoever this woman is so they
can try to poach her to getJonathan to come.
And Richards has told Felix tokeep an eye on Jonathan and find
out what's going on.
Keep an eye on Jonathan andfind out what's going on.
So every night Jonathan andEmmy are like just having fun in
(19:09):
the store and also designingthese windows and Felix catches
Jonathan and Emmy like havingfun but then she turns.
She is only human when jonathanis around.
If another person sees her, sheturns right back into a
mannequin.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
She's like the the weeping angels from yes yes,
doctor, yes, felix catches him.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
In what?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
dancing with a mannequin.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, actually rolling around in a sexual
position with a man.
Oh, that.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And so Armand and Roxy are at the top of an
escalator and like takingpictures of this the funniest
line in the whole movie becauseone of the things Armand will
say something gross and Roxywill like hit him.
And so he has the camera andhe's taking pictures and he's
saying something really gross.
And so she hits him and hefalls down the escalator and you
(20:02):
hear a crash and she looks downand she goes oh my camera.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Right on sister.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And then Felix starts hitting Jonathan Like it's
really weird Physically hittinghim.
Emmy waits until Felix's backis turned and she helps and then
they're able to like knock himout.
So Claire fires Felix andRichard the next morning because
(20:33):
Felix is like knocked out untilthe next morning.
And they find him in themorning like asleep, like
knocked out in the middle andsales keep going down at the
Lustra.
Things are going very poorlyand they end up making Jonathan
the vice president of Prince andCompany.
Everyone is just okay with himcarrying this mannequin around
(20:53):
everywhere.
Yeah, for sure.
They're like you know what?
He seems like a nice guy.
It's not the way I'd do it, butit's working, so carry on.
(21:14):
He's seen the pictures ofJonathan with the mannequin that
Armand and Roxy got.
He says, okay, go steal thatdummy.
So you know we've got something.
So he sends them to gobasically kidnap it.
That is the same night whereJonathan says you have been
(21:36):
stuck in the store too long, Iwant to take you out.
So he takes her out on amotorcycle, even though she's
like aren't you going to feelweird when people see me?
I'm going to turn back into themannequin.
He's like I don't care, youdeserve to have some time.
And so they go out and when noone is looking, she's Emmy.
And when people are looking,it's the mannequin.
And they go past Roxy and Armandin Armand's car and she's like
(22:01):
there's something wrong with you.
And he's like Roxy, you haven'tmet her, emmy, this is Roxy,
roxy, emmy.
And he's like I really don'tcare what you think.
And I think that's at the pointwhere Armand says like you know
what would make you feel better?
Sex with someone you loathe.
And I would like to performthat and like be that for you.
It's so gross.
But the next scene is they're inArmand's really gross apartment
(22:23):
and he's like holding up ablanket and she's like angry,
putting her shoes on.
He's like this has neverhappened before, it never
happens.
So he couldn't perform.
So she said yes, and then hewas.
Well, she says she says drivefast before I change my mind.
And they get there and he can'tand I'm like I'm very glad for
Roxy that that's what happened,but it's gross, it's gross.
(22:48):
So they take this ride.
They come back to the store.
During the ride they're beingchased by Felix and Richards who
saw them leave.
They're like they're kidnappingthe dummy before we got a
chance to kidnap the dummy, orhe's kidnapping the dummy.
They're chased by them and thenthey go back to the store.
In the middle of the store withsome camping equipment, they
(23:10):
make love, which I'm like findsomeplace a little more private.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
But okay, does Jonathan know he's being chased?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, yeah, they elude , pursuit Felix and Richard's
car gets stuck, like becausehe's in a motorcycle he can go
down these like really narrowalleys, so like it like gets air
, and then gets stuck five feetoff the ground.
So I think he has reason tobelieve they're safe.
So get back to the store, makelove in the middle of the store.
(23:44):
He falls asleep and she's like,oh, I need to get to the window
.
And so she goes to the windowthat they've designed and
becomes the mannequin.
Richards and Felix arrive.
They're supposed to just takeEmmy, and Felix is like, oh, I
know exactly which one it is.
And then he's like they alllook the same, so they take all
the female dummies.
So Jonathan wakes up the nextmorning to everyone staring at
(24:05):
him looking at him, yeah.
And like when he wakes up, theyapplaud Is he dressed?
Nope, and then Hollywood showsup and says, yeah, there's,
you've missed the news.
All of the women mannequins aregone, including your favorites.
He's like, oh my God.
And Hollywood is like I knowyou're sad, but you helped me
(24:26):
when Albert and I were broken upand I can tell you what you can
do.
He's like, no, no, no, I knowwhere she is.
And this is again.
Hollywood thinks that he has aweird thing for this mannequin.
He's in love with this specificmannequin, yeah.
And so Hollywood takes him inhis car and like drives him to
Illustra.
So he goes and confronts Roxy,who's in the boardroom with BJ,
(24:50):
who's like how, about $55,000 ayear?
And like he like grabs BJ andlike holds him up against the
wall, like, like reallythreatening when is she?
Where is she?
He's like all right, 60,000.
And this is when Roxy is likeyou know what, you're never
going to see her again.
And like runs off because she'sjealous, but not like it's like
ew, it's a wooden mannequin.
(25:14):
And like I'm a real person.
And like ew, ew.
So like that's what I told youbefore we started recording,
like it's a very human responsethat she has.
It's a human like.
That is so natural.
It's yeah, it's plausible.
It's a plausible reaction thatshe would have.
So she goes down.
They were all in, like thebasement of the, the building
(25:37):
where there is this like gianttrash shredder thing.
So she grabs all of themannequins they stole and starts
putting them on this conveyorbelt to go into the trash
shredder.
And so they have called thepolice, all of security, and
Jonathan goes through this race.
Hollywood had kind of gottenseparated from him and so it's
very difficult for Jonathan toget away from the security.
(25:59):
But finally he's in thebasement and Hollywood appears,
and so it's very difficult forJonathan to get away from the
security.
But finally he's in thebasement and Hollywood appears
and again he thinks he's helpinghis friend get a mannequin.
And he appears.
There's like about a half dozenpolice officers or security
guards.
Hollywood has a giant fire hose, industrial fire hose that he
has turned on the police andhe's like there's two things I
(26:23):
like, and that's kissing men andfighting.
He's keeping these lawenforcement officers at bay with
a fire hose and I want to spendsome time on that.
And so Jonathan races to getthere at the last minute because
of course Emmy's the lastmannequin to get there.
(26:44):
At the last minute he's able tograb her, but there are people
watching, she's still wooden andhe can't quite get her because
there's a conveyor belt and allof that.
And then she turns human and isable to hold his hand, but it's
still like she's heavy, hecan't grab her.
And then there is like ajanitor there who sees her and
is able to hold his hand, butit's still like she's heavy, he
can't grab her.
And then there is like ajanitor there who sees her and
is able to stop the machine andhe's able to pull her up and she
(27:08):
goes.
Oh my God, that man can see meand I'm real, I'm alive.
The entire cast of the movieshows up at that point, at that
point and Claire is able to say,like once we fired the
overnight security guard, I putin surveillance cameras, which
were new in 1987.
And so I saw you two steal allthe mannequins, richards and
(27:35):
Felix.
So we've got the police aregoing to arrest you and I know I
can't prove it yet, but I knowthat you're behind it, bj.
So, and like Jonathan's like,did the surveillance cameras see
everything?
Did they see me and Emmy andshe's like they only saw what I
needed to see, and the finalscene is Emmy and Jonathan
getting married in the window,with Hollywood as best man and
(27:56):
Claire as a bridal attendant ora maid of honor.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So why did Emmy?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
become real Because the gods granted her the wish,
because she she wanted to shewanted, yeah, basically.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Huh, okay, all right.
Where do you want to start withthe analysis here?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Let me talk about that moment with the hose.
Yeah, you want to start there.
That's the moment I rememberedand I don't like because I just
thought it was fun when I was akid.
You didn't see the historicalrelevance with the 60s yeah, so
just recognizing and, like Isuspect, that Meshach Taylor
(28:39):
completely got the oh, he knewhe knew.
And I'm thinking like, had Iseen this in my 20s, I would
have gotten the historicalsignificance of it in terms of
the Civil Rights Movement andBlack Liberation.
But I'm wondering if, in termsof Stonewall and the historical
(29:00):
significance of it for the pridemovement, the fact that it is a
flamboyantly gay black manholding back these law
enforcement officers- Now theymay be store security officers,
(29:21):
but they are wearing blue andwith badges and stuff like that
they are coded as cops with afire hose.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, it's so yeah, it's so subversive, powerful
imagery for this like littletrivial, fluffy movie about a
mannequin that comes to life,which?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
honestly makes it even more powerful, because it
is a movie that more people aregoing to see, because they don't
expect it in there.
Like this is a movie thatlittle kids and, like you know,
people just go to watch and eatpopcorn.
This is not a movie that peopleare going to say like black
(30:00):
power, right and they get it andso like good on you, michael
gottlieb, who is the the writerand director of this film.
Good on you.
That is amazing and it stuckwith me.
That is like like other thanHollywood's clothing and affect.
(30:21):
That was the scene that Iremember being like oh, I loved
that part and like part of thatis because I always, I always
like the like give them theirown back kind of kind of thing
about the underdog in movies.
But watching it last night andjust realizing like oh my god,
(30:42):
that moment is so significant inthis insignificant little like
cotton candy fluff of a of amovie I mean, that is the
project of deep thoughts.
yeah, and so I want to talkabout like why I loved Hollywood
(31:04):
as a character so much.
I'm not going to say like.
I know that this was not thefirst gay character I
encountered and I'm sure it'sprobably not the first like
fully realized gay character Iencountered.
But I can't recall a gaycharacter who had such a heroic
(31:26):
part and who throughout istreated with dignity and respect
.
There is one joke at hisexpense there is a point where,
after Jonathan is offered thevice president position, he
(31:49):
takes Emmy into the ladies' roomso they can have some privacy
to tell her about the job.
And then they're, a bunch ofthe staff are like listening in,
and like he's talking to thedummy again.
And so they're all listening in.
And then Hollywood comes by andhe's like oh no, no, I know you
(32:09):
are not eavesdropping withoutme.
And they're like is that mybeloved Jonathan in there?
They're like yes, and he's likewell, I need to go in.
And so they're like you can'tgo in there.
He's like oh, yes, I can.
And so he goes in and of courseEmmy turns into a mannequin.
And then Hollywood asksJonathan, please help me make a
(32:32):
window.
Like that was my job.
And like you're outpacing meand I need to know what it is.
You do, I need your help.
And Jonathan feels like he can'tdo it without Emmy and so he's
like I don't know, I don't knowif I can, and like Hollywood
starts crying.
He's like you know, I thought,like I thought we were friends,
and then, like Jonathan's likeokay, and so Hollywood starts
(32:55):
sobbing in that very flamboyant,over-the-top kind of way and a
man comes out of the men's roomand says who's that crying?
And one of the women says tohim it's either our new VP, a
dummy, or the fairy, and it's sogross.
But it's also so much moregentle than it could have been.
(33:17):
But it's gross, but that is inthe movie.
That is the only thing that isat his expense and it is a
throwaway character.
So I feel like in a lot of ways, this does.
This was like a push forwardwhen we needed it and like we
(33:41):
kind of needed it to be in thisintellectual candy movie Mm-hmm,
because we're not taking themovie seriously, so we can.
So it slipped in.
So it slipped in.
Yeah, it's a spoonful of sugarand Meshach Taylor does a
fantastic job.
He gives like, even with theflamboyance he gives like he has
(34:04):
fun with this character.
But this character is a realperson and the writing allows.
He's not asexual, he's not thisover-the-top flamboyant
character who has never had sex,who doesn't have relationships,
who you know and who is notsacrificed at the end or
anything like that.
Now we never see Albert oranything along those lines, but
(34:28):
I don't think that 1987 couldhave handled that, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That was like when I was texting you last night.
I was like this movie issurprisingly great.
That's part of what it was, andthe other thing that I want to
point out is so there'sHollywood and then there is
Jonathan's character, first ofall pushing back against Felix
like the homophobia that wasperfectly normal in 1987,
(34:57):
calling it out you're a bigotedjerk.
And then putting his arm aroundHollywood when Hollywood is
upset about his recent breakup.
So I saw a film analysis lastnight and I'll link to it in the
show notes that reminded mebecause I had forgotten the
timeline that this was at aboutthe same time when Princess
(35:17):
Diana made headlines for goingto a hospital that was treating
HIV and AIDS patients.
She made headlines because sheshook their hands and made a
statement saying you're notputting yourself in danger by
shaking the hands or huggingpeople who have HIV or AIDS.
Because people were at thattime, were even afraid to be in
(35:41):
the same room with someone whowas gay.
And so when Hollywood talksabout being upset and is upset
about having broken up withAlbert, jonathan immediately
puts his arm around him.
So that was also so huge andsubversive Mm-hmm At that time
(36:10):
At that time, and just EstelleGetty's role in this was also
this I didn't realize.
In that same video, estelleGetty was an ally, lgbtq ally
her entire life.
She had an important boundaryin what roles she would take.
She would not take any rolesthat used homophobia as the butt
of a joke.
She did not allow any jokes tomake being queer the punchline.
(36:33):
So like right there, the factthat she was in this movie
showed that this was a moviethat recognized that there are
many ways to love and that'stotally okay.
So I also want to talk aboutlike the romance is actually
pretty great too, even thoughit's a Pygmalion story.
So Kim Cattrall's Emmy the moviejust barely passes the Bechdel
(36:57):
test because Emmy and her motheroh wait, does her mother have a
name?
Hmm, it might not pass theBechdel test.
They talk about the fact thatEmmy wants to do more than just
be married to some dude and shewants to invent things and see
the world and fly and all ofthese things.
(37:17):
And her mother says, yeah, Iknow, but that's not the way it
works for women.
And then Emmy basically becomesa muse where she inhabits the
artwork created by differentmale artists and comes alive and
she tells Jonathan like Ireally liked the way that your
(37:38):
hands felt when you werecreating me as a mannequin,
which seems so silly.
But she has made it clear sheis looking for true love and at
one point Jonathan says why meLike, maybe there's some other
guy 5,000 years from now who'sgoing to be better than me.
(37:58):
I'm just some dude.
And she's like well, I like theway that you look at the world
and the jobs he keeps gettingfired from.
He's getting fired because heis taking his time trying to
make things perfect.
So he gets fired from makingpizzas because he's trying to
(38:33):
distribute the peppers andonions and make things that are
worthy.
And she recognizes that in himthat it's not just like getting
by.
He really wants to do somethingthat is important and he
recognizes that that is trueeven in something mundane like
pizza or like Prince andCompany's window display, which
(38:57):
is kind of lovely.
And then, because she has hadthese life experiences all
throughout these 4,000 yearsthey're brief, but she is not
someone who appears with noexperience.
She has had sexual partnersbefore.
(39:18):
She has had love, but not likeyou know, the deep love that
she's looking for.
But she's had love before.
You know she's had previousboyfriends and so when she falls
in love with Jonathan, we knowit's not because he's the first
guy she's met, which I really,really appreciate.
And that's one of the thingslike why I love Kim Cattrall is
(39:39):
you get the impression that sheis uncompromising.
All of her characters feel likethey got moxie.
They're uncompromising, likeeven in these silly little like
romantic comedies, like in thisridiculous Egyptian beginning.
She's like I want all thesewonderful things and you feel
(40:00):
like you know what.
I got a lot of them and I fellin love with this ridiculous
window dresser because I gotthese cool things and he has
this quality that I've beenlooking for, even though he's
some random sculptor inPhiladelphia.
You don't get the sense thatshe's settling for some less
(40:20):
than guy.
He's not mid.
Even though he's just somerandom guy in Philadelphia.
You know there really is asense that he is worthy and
somehow there's somethingspecial about him.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
He's not just a dude.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
He's not just a dude with a pretty face.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Which in a different movie.
Sure, that's what it would beDefinitely.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I mean most of the Born Sexy Yesterday.
Pygmalion type stories.
That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yes, and so that that is what I like.
I really appreciate it.
I feel like there is there is asense of equality between them.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Can we talk about the ways in which she is and is not
born sexy yesterday, sure.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
She isn't, because she has agency over when she
appears and that is notsomething that you see in the
born sexy yesterday.
So, like Leeloo from FifthElement did not get to choose.
Right when she came back,whereas emmy has made it clear
that like, oh, I like this one,I'm coming back for this one, um
(41:23):
, and so that agency reallymakes a big difference, like I'm
gonna show up now because Ilike this guy and so, so that
that is.
That is very counter to pornsexy yesterday.
Because that level of agency,the wisdom, like when he's like
I don't think I can do thiswithout you, and she's like, yes
, you can, I help you, but youhave that creativity within you.
(41:45):
That is like the manic pixiedream girl Wise beyond her years
.
Yeah, that's part of the trope,I can sex you into being the man
you can be.
That's part of the trope I cansex you into being the man you
can be.
So that's part of it, and thelike helping you break free of
(42:05):
your own mental prison, kind ofbullshit.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But it's also hard to say, because the fact that
Jonathanathan embraces, like youknow what.
I'm just gonna be the weird guywho carries a mannequin around
is why he's worthy of her, youknow?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
yeah, I see why you say it's not quite aligned but
it's definitely adjacent, it's,it's, it rhymes, it rhymes.
There's a scene where sheaccidentally stumbles onto a
huge stereo and music startsplaying.
She's like, oh, where are themusicians?
So she hasn't come back for twoor three hundred years,
apparently, and so there'smoments like that where it's
(42:53):
like Like squarely in the BornSexy Yesterday with that wonder
and she sees like thisdepartment store they sell the
weirdest shit.
So she sees like a hang gliderand like one of the things.
One of her dreams has alwaysbeen to fly, and it's this huge,
gorgeous, like old fashioned,like from the early 20th century
(43:13):
department stores and in factthey said it in Philadelphia,
because they specificallyscouted to find a department
store that looked like this andso she flies from like the
seventh or eighth floor all theway down, and that also feels
like born sexy yesterday sort ofmoments.
When it comes to that, though,that sort of story also needs to
(43:35):
not needs to be told.
But that kind of like wonder,that kind of like I can do
wonderful things, I'm not madabout telling that story you
know, no sure.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I mean I think wonder is great and like it's
interesting to think about thegender, like the difference
between like this and like big,where the born sex yesterday
character is actually a man, youknow, which was actually really
gross because he was 13 orwhatever he was.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
but I definitely think that adults need to be
reminded that like wonder andjoy are allowed and like it's
complicated yeah yeah, yeah itis, and the fact that what makes
her fully alive is love,because had the mannequin been
destroyed, she would have justbecome a muse again.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Some, some number of years later, she wouldn't be
gone.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
She would be gone to jonathan, right, but it's a love
story.
And she does does say, like, ofall the things she wants, she
also wants.
It's not that she doesn't wantmarriage, it's not that she
doesn't want that part of life,she just wants it on her own
terms.
And she has said to Jonathanlike you are special, you are
(44:48):
different from the other menthat I've been with.
So you know it's a both ends.
Like this is part of, like it's.
It fits within this particulargenre.
It's a romantic comedy and it'stelling this specific type of
story.
And whose story is it?
Like that's?
That's the other question.
Like is this?
Is this emmy's story?
Is this jonathan's story?
(45:08):
Is this hollywood story?
And, honestly, I'm not entirelysure.
You know, my little romanticheart loved that the ending
happened the way that it did,because it, you know, allowed
them to be together and you knowhe was worthy of this amazing
(45:30):
woman, who was so incredible.
She was able to become a musesimply by asking for it.
But is that really what wasbest for her?
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know, I don'tknow well, we're running short
(45:53):
on time.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Do you have have any other key insights you want to
share before I wrap us?
Speaker 1 (45:56):
up.
One last thing is the janitorwho stopped the machine.
He then starts kissingmannequins and he finds Roxy,
who had been covered in detritusby the machine and knocked out,
and he kisses her and he's like, oh, it's a miracle it works.
And she's like get off of me.
And like it's Roxy is donewrong by this movie.
(46:20):
Yeah, sounds like it, and then,like you know, he starts, she
runs away and is fired and likepoor Roxy, but then at the end
like he dives into the detritusand starts trying to kiss other
mannequins and it's really like.
I know it's done for comediceffect, but it's gross, yeah,
it's gross.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
It's like the no, no, no that's gross, yeah, yeah,
anyway, all right.
So let me see if I can reflectback to you what we talked about
.
So this film maybe passesbecksell if emmy's mom has a
name, but, but just barely.
So we'll start there.
I think the thing that you lovedthe most about it was this
(47:00):
character of Hollywood played byMeshack Taylor, who was
flamboyant and stereotypical asa gay character from 1987.
It was a fully formed characterwho was not the butt of the joke
, except for one very specificexception and the person who
(47:25):
said it.
It was sort of an offhandedinsult from a minor character
who wasn't really more of anextra, allowed to have a sexual
relationship with someone offscreen and like be this fully
formed character and friend andbe comforted by a straight male
friend, physically comfortedwith his arm around him in the
era when princess diana had to,like issue statements that said
(47:47):
it's safe to shake hands withand hug hiv and aids patients
and and gay people in general,and how subversive that was.
And then add to the subversionin the specific scene that Baby
Emily remembered, whereHollywood used a fire hose to
keep law enforcement at bay,which is significant both that
(48:09):
this was a Black character doingthat, with sort of echoes like
the inversion of those imagesfrom the civil rights movement
from Birmingham, but also thathe was a gay character.
So then we're also thinkingabout Stonewall and the ways in
which that marginalizedcommunity, or the doubly
marginalized community- of blackgay folks like Marsha P Johnson
(48:30):
, who were brutalized by lawenforcement, so and how
subversive that was.
And you noted that thissubversion and this like
inversion that we see withHollywood with the fire hose on
the cops, is in this like kindof throwaway, like cotton candy
movie that like everybody wentto because it was just fluff.
(48:53):
And that's kind of the point.
And, honestly, that's kind ofthe point of this whole project
of deep thoughts about stupidshit, because that shit is in
there whether we're payingattention or not.
In this case it's somethingthat we actually you and I are
glad to see.
So often it's stuff that we'renot glad to see.
You've spent some time thinkingabout Emmy as the well, I guess
(49:16):
Jonathan is Pygmalion, but Emmyas the sort of creation in the
Pygmalion myth, whether or notshe chose to come to life now
with this creator, she hadagency, it sounds like to even
(49:44):
to remain human, like it was thegods granted her a wish, rather
than like the strength ofJonathan's love or something
like that.
So it was really about her andshe was the center of that
transformation, as opposed toJonathan, and that feels really
about her and she was the centerof that transformation as
opposed to Jonathan, and thatfeels really good.
There are ways, though, inwhich she fits the born sexy
yesterday with some of thewonder, which is not a bad thing
(50:05):
, but it just does sort of fitwith the manic pixie dream.
But the fact that we know shehas had previous boyfriends,
that we know she has hadprevious sexual partners, is
very different from thetraditional kind of born sexy
yesterday idea.
Let me see you also.
You named Estelle Getty as amarker that this movie was not
(50:25):
one that would make homophobialike a joke.
I think it's really interestingthat you sort of name like here
it's this genre, and so we havethis romance.
That was right at the end, likeis this actually what's best for
this 4,000-year-old entity?
I don't know.
Like 20th century marriage,heterosexual marriage I'm not so
sure that's happy ending.
Sorry, maybe I'm protectinghere, but I think that's an
(50:47):
interesting question.
And the other question I thinkthat you asked that I find
really, really interesting iswho is the protagonist?
Whose story is this?
I think that's a reallyfascinating question.
Is it Emmy's story?
Is it Jonathan's story?
Is it Hollywood's story?
I think that's a really, reallyinteresting question.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Well, one thing that I one of the things that I said
is that, like this film issurprisingly great, that doesn't
mean it's without problems.
It uses sexual harassment as ajoke.
Roxy is really done wrong bythis movie, like she's shown to
be materialistic and things likethat, but she doesn't deserve
what happens to her, and theidea that Kim Cattrall is
(51:23):
Egyptian is not okay, right, youalso named the fact, regarding
Roxy, that that scene, which isin some ways ridiculous that
this person is jealous of amannequin also is plausible the
way they set it up in thecontext, yeah, which I think
speaks to the power of thewriting
yes, yeah, yeah.
(51:44):
In this ridiculous movie, like,there's a reason why it's a
cult classic, like, uh, eventhough, like roger ebert gave it
a half a star, he hated it, wow.
But it is a cult classic inpart because of Hollywood there
are people who love this becauseof Hollywood.
But then also there issomething very cohesive about
this storytelling.
And then I just want to give myprops to Kim Cattrall.
(52:07):
I really, really think that shegot Moxie and there's just
something about like she feelslike and I know this is somewhat
behind-the-scenes stuff andmeta but she is unapologetic and
non-compromising and I feellike she takes characters who
are unapologetic andnon-compromising in a lot of
ways, even in fluffy littlemovies like this.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Well, I'm glad to be remindedof this film.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
it's, it's if you want to, if you want to just
like have an afternoon with somepopcorn, and just it's, it's
worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
It's worthwhile, it's a delight so next week, next
week, I am scheduled to bringyou my deep thoughts about mrs
doubtfire oh, very interesting,See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(53:04):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
(53:25):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
And that's one of the things like why I love Kim
Cattrall is you get theimpression that she is
uncompromising.
All of her characters feel likethey got moxie.
They're uncompromising, likeeven in these silly little like
romantic comedies, in thisridiculous Egyptian beginning.
She's like I want all thesewonderful things and you feel
(00:22):
like you know what?
I got a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I want all these wonderful things and you feel
like you know what.
I got a lot of them.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1987 film Mannequin with mysister, tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's dive in.
So, tracy, I know you've seenthis movie, but tell me what's
(01:06):
in your head about Mannequin?
With my sister, tracyGuy-Decker, and with you, let's
dive in.
So, tracy, I know you've seenthis movie, but tell me what's
in your head about Mannequin.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I mean, I know I've seen this movie, but maybe not
since 87.
It's been like a really longtime.
My recollection is that a goodlooking dude I don't remember
the actor, but I remember likingthe way that he looked was a
window dresser or something,somehow worked with mannequins
and fell in love with one inparticular, and then she becomes
real.
So, as we noted at the end oflast episode a Pygmalion story I
(01:35):
have vague memory of a Blackgay best friend, and that's
really it.
That's what I got for this film, like that's all there is in
terms of Furniture of the Mind.
I mean, it was on the list andso, and I was like, oh yeah,
kind of sort Okay, but I knew itwasn't one I was going to lean
on.
So tell me, though, why are wetalking about it?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
So we are recording this on June 22nd, so still in
the midst of Pride Month, andoriginally, actually, according
to our schedule, we were goingto record Overboard and I was
like I can't do it, I cannot doit.
That movie is very problematiceven in my memory and so I.
Actually it's because of the gayblack best friend played by
(02:19):
Meshach Taylor, who I alsoremember fondly from Designing
Women, anthony Bouvier.
We should put that on the list.
I remember just adoringHollywood Montrose, the
character that he played.
He had the most amazing outfits.
(02:39):
His glasses were these funky80s-tastic glasses.
His clothes were amazing.
He was hilarious, he wasflamboyant, but he was not the
joke, he was a real person and Ijust remember always loving
(03:01):
when he was on screen and he wasa great friend to.
It was Andrew McCarthy'sJonathan, and so, because it's
Pride Month, I was thinkingabout like I loved that
character.
Does he hold up?
Because Meshach Taylor wasn'tqueer as far as I know, you know
he was married to a woman.
He sadly passed away about 10years ago.
(03:24):
Know, you know he was marriedto a woman.
He sadly passed away about 10years ago, and so I was like so
was this a good representation?
Do I remember it well?
Or is this just my childhoodmemory of a flamboyant character
?
Or is this, you know, like 80s,rosy, rosy, rose colored
glasses?
And, honestly, I didn't havehigh hopes for it, because this
is a ridiculous premise.
(03:44):
And, honestly, I didn't havehigh hopes for it, because this
is a ridiculous premise.
It's ridiculous.
Critics hated it and I watchedit last night and, oh my God,
this movie is surprisingly great.
It is surprisingly wonderful.
It reminded me like I love KimCattrall, like I really do
Everything she has been in.
She is not an actor that I goto for, like gravitas exactly,
(04:11):
but everything she's in is justa delight.
She's got moxie, yeah, and likeI'm reminded of.
I think I've talked beforeabout how the reboot of Sex and
the City is dead to me Becauseshe's not in it.
It's not because she's not init, it's because of how they
wrote her out of it, because hercharacter was ride or die for
(04:36):
her friends and the way theywrote her out of it was that she
got her feelings hurt and wouldnot speak to them again, just
wrote them off.
Yeah, and so, and it's like youknow what there are many ways
that you can write a characteroff where she's still ride or
die for her friends and like I'msorry, no, don't do Kim
Cattrall like that, don't doSamantha Jones like that.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
No, all right.
All right, let's talk about.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Mannequin.
Let's talk about Mannequin.
So part of what's fantasticabout this movie is, yes,
Hollywood is a lot ofstereotypes and very flamboyant,
but in service of a fullyformed character who is allowed
to have romantic and sexualrelationships.
Not on screen, 1987 was notquite prepared for that, but
(05:30):
still he talks openly about hisrelationship and other people
are encouraging him about themand talk to him about his
relationship and what he can doto encourage his relationship
with his on-a-gun, off-a-gunboyfriend is Albert.
He is heroic and loyal to hisfriends and in a lot of ways he
is the hero with agency in thisfilm and he is the only
(05:52):
character brought back for theexecrable sequel.
It's terrible.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
They made a second Okay.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But if you fast forward to the parts with
Hollywood, that's worth watching.
So that is quite amazing.
And then, as I said, it's aPygmalion story.
But it fixes the problems withPygmalion stories because Kim
Cattrall's character, emmy, isnotxy-yesterday creation who
(06:27):
comes alive because her creatorfalls in love with her.
Her creator does fall in lovewith her, but she is actually a
4,000-year-old muse who has comealive in artistic creations
over and over and over againover these 4,000 years when she
has felt something for an artistwho has fallen in love with his
(06:48):
creation because she is lookingfor her true love.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's really interesting.
So she's not, I think,Pygmalion, I think Born Sexy
Yesterday, unless it's likeEliza Doolittle, I suppose.
But it's really interestingthat instead of that, she is a
muse.
That's really cool, Although Iwill say I think there's this
sort of like if we think aboutLeeloo from Fifth Element.
(07:13):
She was also an ancient being,yes, and still born sexy
yesterday, yes, and even WonderWoman we talked about.
Wonder Woman had that sort oflike.
There is a sense of ancientwisdom that comes along with
Born Sexy Yesterday, yes.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And I think in some ways, emmy, well, we'll get to
it, we'll talk about that, we'lltalk about that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Sure, so why don't you remind me of what happened,
since I have so little actualplot in my head?
Speaker 1 (07:42):
So the film starts in ancient Egypt.
It says I can't remember.
It's like Elfu, egypt,thousands of years ago.
Oh, so she's not a Greek notfrom Greek mythology.
No, she is.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Egyptian Kim.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
Cattrall is Egyptian.
Blonde haired, blue eyed, kimCattrall is Egyptian.
It is surprisingly fantastic.
That doesn't mean it's withoutproblems.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I'm with you.
So it kind of sets the scenefor how ridiculous it's going to
(08:24):
be.
Because it says, like thesubtitle says, el arranged to
marry because Emmy has turneddown all of her suitors and this
is the last one who'sinterested in marrying her and
he is a camel dung salesman.
Because she's turned down thejeweler, she's turned down the I
can't remember what they allare and so Emmy is praying to
(08:45):
the gods, saying please get meout of this.
And so there's a strike oflightning and Emmy disappears.
Then we go into an animationwith music that shows an
animation of Emmy going throughhistory and appearing to artists
and coming alive from their art.
Now I will admit, even lastnight I have trouble paying
(09:08):
attention to this animationbecause it's like, just for
whatever reason, like you changeformat and I'm like, oh, is
this the same story?
But it's basically showing thatshe has done this multiple
times throughout the intervening4,000 years.
Then we see it's Philadelphia,current day, which is 1987.
(09:29):
And we meet Jonathan Switcher,played by Andrew McCarthy.
He is working in a mannequinfactory, or I don't know exactly
how it works, and he isspeaking to a mannequin.
He says you know, you get morebeautiful every single day he
has created the head and torsoof a mannequin and he's like all
right, let's get you some limbs.
(09:49):
And he starts finding legs andarms for it.
The boss comes over and askshow it's going.
He's like oh, I think I'vereally got it now.
You know, it's only taken melike six days.
And I finally like, look, she'sperfect.
And he's like I think if I keepgoing at this rate, I can do
like three or four in a month.
He's like you're supposed to dothree or four in a week.
(10:10):
You're fired.
And then you see a montage ofhim getting fired from a bunch
of other jobs.
He then picks up his girlfriendRoxy from the Illustra giant
department store on his HarleyDavidson motorcycle.
She is horribly embarrassedthat he's picking her up in
something with outdoors and allof her co-workers are like
(10:32):
making fun of her that she'sbeing picked up on a motorcycle
I mean, it's a harley, it's nota.
I know, you know little puttputter I mean okay, okay, all
right, but it's not.
It's not like a, anyway, it's alittle Harley, but still, okay.
Okay, all right, carry on.
They're not wearing helmets,which I have a problem with, but
(10:54):
anyway.
So they end up arguing.
She says I'm not coming homewith you.
You really need to figurethings out Like you have no
ambition, things out Like youhave no ambition.
We learned that Jonathan isactually a sculptor and he is
like chronically underemployedbecause there's not much call
for sculptors these days and itstarts raining.
(11:15):
So he's he and his motorcyclewon't start.
And so he's walking it down thestreet past a different
department store and he sees hismannequin in the window and he,
like, walks over to it and he'slike, oh, I know every artist
falls in love with theircreation, but you were the first
thing that really made him feellike an artist in a long, long
(11:35):
time.
And then he goes back to hismotorcycle and he's able to turn
it on and ride home and he'slike, wow, okay.
So the next morning he goesback to the window and he runs
into Estelle Getty's ClaireTimken, who is the owner of
Prince and Company.
It was her grandfather and herfather's store, so you know it's
(11:58):
been there for 100 years.
They're putting up a new signthat says 100 years years.
They're putting up a new signthat says 100 years and they're
chatting when the new sign fallsand Jonathan pushes her out of
the way and like, grabs the signand is like swinging from it
and saves her life.
And so she says, oh, mygoodness, young man, I owe you
(12:19):
my life, what can I do for you?
He's like well, I need a job.
And she's like what can you do?
And he's like I'll do anything.
So she brings him in,introduces him to the store
manager who we see, before theyget there, is on the phone with
BJ Wirt, who is the manager ofIllustra, and so is clearly in
cahoots with Illustra, who wantsto do a hostile takeover of
(12:40):
Prince and Company.
And so the manager of Illustrais played by James Spader in
like unctuous, greasy perfection.
I mean he is just having a ballchewing the scenery.
And so Claire says give thisyoung man a job.
And so he just makes him aclerk where he's putting
(13:01):
packages away.
Richards is the name of JamesSpader's character, so he uses
the job where he's puttingpackages away to.
Richards is the name of JamesSpader's character.
So he uses the job where he'sputting packages away to try to
find his mannequin and hestumbles into the window dresser
, hollywood Montrose, played byMeshach Taylor.
And because he's been lookingfor the mannequin, he's
(13:26):
accidentally walked into acouple of changing rooms, which
is not okay.
And Hollywood is like, oh, I'mso glad you're here.
Really, he's like, yeah, Inever thought they would hire
anyone stranger than me.
And so Hollywood ends up havingJonathan help him with window
dressing, and they are using hismannequin.
So, emmy, and so they get thewindow dressed.
(13:47):
Hollywood starts tellingJonathan about his troubles.
He and Albert have just brokenup and so, again, this is very
subversive in 1987.
Jonathan puts his arm aroundHollywood and says, like you
need to go home and get somerest.
You need to.
Because Hollywood's saying,like he said, my thighs are too
fat.
Does he think it's true?
And Jonathan's like I don'tknow anything about men's thighs
(14:09):
, but you know like you need toget some rest, you need to.
You know, like, take good careof yourself and is being a good
friend.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
When in 1987, it would have been perfectly normal
for a movie to be like ewnormal for a movie to be like ew
man, I don't know, or worse, orworse, you know, just like ew,
I don't want to talk about thatman.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
And so, once Hollywood leaves, he had put a
scarf around the mannequin'sneck and it has fallen.
And so Jonathan leans over andpicks it up and says oh so you
don't like your new scarf?
And Emmy comes alive and says,not, especially no.
And he, like, freaks out, notenough.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
I have a vague memory of that he like, kind of like
backs up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah.
So she like wanders around thestores just talking to him,
tells him a little bit about youknow what's what's going on?
She says you remind me of myboyfriend Chris.
I told him the world was roundand then I never saw him again.
And together they end upcreating this like amazing
(15:14):
window dressing that brings ahuge number of people to the
store the next morning, which isanother aspect of the movie
that just like, seriously,window dressing is going to make
a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I feel like movies in general kind of gave us the
impression that that was like athing that people care a great
deal about.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
So at some point that night he runs into and I am not
going to remember the characteror the actor's name so he runs
into the oh Felix, the overnightsecurity guard, who is a bigot
he's played by GW Bailey, whowas also the bad guy in the
Police Academy movies.
And so he runs into him.
He's like, oh, I'm helpingHollywood.
(15:55):
And he's like, oh, so the Maryhas an assistant.
So where do you all come from?
And so Jonathan says Ohio,no-transcript.
(16:58):
Jonathan, in trouble for thisamazing people, because people
are talking and it's Richard's,but Richard's also like talking
about both sides of his mouth,saying like I'll protect you.
To, uh, to Jonathan, Hollywood,who has met Jonathan the night
before but was Jonathan, waskind to him, shows up and says I
will go in and fight for you.
(17:20):
And, uh, he starts like, uh,he's like I didn't want to do
this.
But he starts like unbuttoninghis suit and Jonathan's like no,
I didn't want to do this.
But he starts like unbuttoninghis suit and Jonathan's like no,
I don't think it's that kind ofthing.
And he takes off his suit andunderneath it's a completely
conservative suit.
He's like that's hilarious.
And he's like please do nottell anyone.
You saw me like this.
I have an image to maintain.
(17:40):
So Claire Stelgetti says youknow this is ridiculous.
We're going to hold off on thediscussion about selling for
another six weeks.
We're going to see what happens.
People come to look at thesewindows, they stay to buy and
I'm promoting Jonathan tomanager of window dressing
basically Merchandising orwhatever.
So he's like I'm not sure I cando it because like I had help.
(18:04):
And she's like believe inyourself, it's fine.
So he starts working overnight.
Now Roxy, the girlfriend is toldto try to poach him.
So she takes him to lunch andhe tells her like what if I told
you I'd help?
She's like oh, that's fine,Bring him along.
And he says what if I told youit's a beautiful woman?
And she says that's okay, I'mnot jealous, even though they've
(18:28):
basically broken up at thispoint.
And he says no, I found a placewhere people care about me.
They like me for who I am.
I'm not leaving.
If there's anything that I am,it's loyal and so, no, I'm not
doing this.
So Roxy and Armand, who is oneof her co-workers who is
constantly sexually harassingher, sneak into the building at
(18:49):
night to try to get pictures ofwhoever this woman is so they
can try to poach her to getJonathan to come.
And Richards has told Felix tokeep an eye on Jonathan and find
out what's going on.
Keep an eye on Jonathan andfind out what's going on.
So every night Jonathan andEmmy are like just having fun in
(19:09):
the store and also designingthese windows and Felix catches
Jonathan and Emmy like havingfun but then she turns.
She is only human when jonathanis around.
If another person sees her, sheturns right back into a
mannequin.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
She's like the the weeping angels from yes yes,
doctor, yes, felix catches him.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
In what?
Speaker 2 (19:33):
dancing with a mannequin.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, actually rolling around in a sexual
position with a man.
Oh, that.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And so Armand and Roxy are at the top of an
escalator and like takingpictures of this the funniest
line in the whole movie becauseone of the things Armand will
say something gross and Roxywill like hit him.
And so he has the camera andhe's taking pictures and he's
saying something really gross.
And so she hits him and hefalls down the escalator and you
(20:02):
hear a crash and she looks downand she goes oh my camera.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Right on sister.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And then Felix starts hitting Jonathan Like it's
really weird Physically hittinghim.
Emmy waits until Felix's backis turned and she helps and then
they're able to like knock himout.
So Claire fires Felix andRichard the next morning because
(20:33):
Felix is like knocked out untilthe next morning.
And they find him in themorning like asleep, like
knocked out in the middle andsales keep going down at the
Lustra.
Things are going very poorlyand they end up making Jonathan
the vice president of Prince andCompany.
Everyone is just okay with himcarrying this mannequin around
(20:53):
everywhere.
Yeah, for sure.
They're like you know what?
He seems like a nice guy.
It's not the way I'd do it, butit's working, so carry on.
(21:14):
He's seen the pictures ofJonathan with the mannequin that
Armand and Roxy got.
He says, okay, go steal thatdummy.
So you know we've got something.
So he sends them to gobasically kidnap it.
That is the same night whereJonathan says you have been
(21:36):
stuck in the store too long, Iwant to take you out.
So he takes her out on amotorcycle, even though she's
like aren't you going to feelweird when people see me?
I'm going to turn back into themannequin.
He's like I don't care, youdeserve to have some time.
And so they go out and when noone is looking, she's Emmy.
And when people are looking,it's the mannequin.
And they go past Roxy and Armandin Armand's car and she's like
(22:01):
there's something wrong with you.
And he's like Roxy, you haven'tmet her, emmy, this is Roxy,
roxy, emmy.
And he's like I really don'tcare what you think.
And I think that's at the pointwhere Armand says like you know
what would make you feel better?
Sex with someone you loathe.
And I would like to performthat and like be that for you.
It's so gross.
But the next scene is they're inArmand's really gross apartment
(22:23):
and he's like holding up ablanket and she's like angry,
putting her shoes on.
He's like this has neverhappened before, it never
happens.
So he couldn't perform.
So she said yes, and then hewas.
Well, she says she says drivefast before I change my mind.
And they get there and he can'tand I'm like I'm very glad for
Roxy that that's what happened,but it's gross, it's gross.
(22:48):
So they take this ride.
They come back to the store.
During the ride they're beingchased by Felix and Richards who
saw them leave.
They're like they're kidnappingthe dummy before we got a
chance to kidnap the dummy, orhe's kidnapping the dummy.
They're chased by them and thenthey go back to the store.
In the middle of the store withsome camping equipment, they
(23:10):
make love, which I'm like findsomeplace a little more private.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
But okay, does Jonathan know he's being chased?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yes, yeah, they elude , pursuit Felix and Richard's
car gets stuck, like becausehe's in a motorcycle he can go
down these like really narrowalleys, so like it like gets air
, and then gets stuck five feetoff the ground.
So I think he has reason tobelieve they're safe.
So get back to the store, makelove in the middle of the store.
(23:44):
He falls asleep and she's like,oh, I need to get to the window
.
And so she goes to the windowthat they've designed and
becomes the mannequin.
Richards and Felix arrive.
They're supposed to just takeEmmy, and Felix is like, oh, I
know exactly which one it is.
And then he's like they alllook the same, so they take all
the female dummies.
So Jonathan wakes up the nextmorning to everyone staring at
(24:05):
him looking at him, yeah.
And like when he wakes up, theyapplaud Is he dressed?
Nope, and then Hollywood showsup and says, yeah, there's,
you've missed the news.
All of the women mannequins aregone, including your favorites.
He's like, oh my God.
And Hollywood is like I knowyou're sad, but you helped me
(24:26):
when Albert and I were broken upand I can tell you what you can
do.
He's like, no, no, no, I knowwhere she is.
And this is again.
Hollywood thinks that he has aweird thing for this mannequin.
He's in love with this specificmannequin, yeah.
And so Hollywood takes him inhis car and like drives him to
Illustra.
So he goes and confronts Roxy,who's in the boardroom with BJ,
(24:50):
who's like how, about $55,000 ayear?
And like he like grabs BJ andlike holds him up against the
wall, like, like reallythreatening when is she?
Where is she?
He's like all right, 60,000.
And this is when Roxy is likeyou know what, you're never
going to see her again.
And like runs off because she'sjealous, but not like it's like
ew, it's a wooden mannequin.
(25:14):
And like I'm a real person.
And like ew, ew.
So like that's what I told youbefore we started recording,
like it's a very human responsethat she has.
It's a human like.
That is so natural.
It's yeah, it's plausible.
It's a plausible reaction thatshe would have.
So she goes down.
They were all in, like thebasement of the, the building
(25:37):
where there is this like gianttrash shredder thing.
So she grabs all of themannequins they stole and starts
putting them on this conveyorbelt to go into the trash
shredder.
And so they have called thepolice, all of security, and
Jonathan goes through this race.
Hollywood had kind of gottenseparated from him and so it's
very difficult for Jonathan toget away from the security.
(25:59):
But finally he's in thebasement and Hollywood appears,
and so it's very difficult forJonathan to get away from the
security.
But finally he's in thebasement and Hollywood appears
and again he thinks he's helpinghis friend get a mannequin.
And he appears.
There's like about a half dozenpolice officers or security
guards.
Hollywood has a giant fire hose, industrial fire hose that he
has turned on the police andhe's like there's two things I
(26:23):
like, and that's kissing men andfighting.
He's keeping these lawenforcement officers at bay with
a fire hose and I want to spendsome time on that.
And so Jonathan races to getthere at the last minute because
of course Emmy's the lastmannequin to get there.
(26:44):
At the last minute he's able tograb her, but there are people
watching, she's still wooden andhe can't quite get her because
there's a conveyor belt and allof that.
And then she turns human and isable to hold his hand, but it's
still like she's heavy, hecan't grab her.
And then there is like ajanitor there who sees her and
is able to hold his hand, butit's still like she's heavy, he
can't grab her.
And then there is like ajanitor there who sees her and
is able to stop the machine andhe's able to pull her up and she
(27:08):
goes.
Oh my God, that man can see meand I'm real, I'm alive.
The entire cast of the movieshows up at that point, at that
point and Claire is able to say,like once we fired the
overnight security guard, I putin surveillance cameras, which
were new in 1987.
And so I saw you two steal allthe mannequins, richards and
(27:35):
Felix.
So we've got the police aregoing to arrest you and I know I
can't prove it yet, but I knowthat you're behind it, bj.
So, and like Jonathan's like,did the surveillance cameras see
everything?
Did they see me and Emmy andshe's like they only saw what I
needed to see, and the finalscene is Emmy and Jonathan
getting married in the window,with Hollywood as best man and
(27:56):
Claire as a bridal attendant ora maid of honor.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So why did Emmy?
Speaker 1 (28:02):
become real Because the gods granted her the wish,
because she she wanted to shewanted, yeah, basically.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Huh, okay, all right.
Where do you want to start withthe analysis here?
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Let me talk about that moment with the hose.
Yeah, you want to start there.
That's the moment I rememberedand I don't like because I just
thought it was fun when I was akid.
You didn't see the historicalrelevance with the 60s yeah, so
just recognizing and, like Isuspect, that Meshach Taylor
(28:39):
completely got the oh, he knewhe knew.
And I'm thinking like, had Iseen this in my 20s, I would
have gotten the historicalsignificance of it in terms of
the Civil Rights Movement andBlack Liberation.
But I'm wondering if, in termsof Stonewall and the historical
(29:00):
significance of it for the pridemovement, the fact that it is a
flamboyantly gay black manholding back these law
enforcement officers- Now theymay be store security officers,
(29:21):
but they are wearing blue andwith badges and stuff like that
they are coded as cops with afire hose.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Yeah, it's so yeah, it's so subversive, powerful
imagery for this like littletrivial, fluffy movie about a
mannequin that comes to life,which?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
honestly makes it even more powerful, because it
is a movie that more people aregoing to see, because they don't
expect it in there.
Like this is a movie thatlittle kids and, like you know,
people just go to watch and eatpopcorn.
This is not a movie that peopleare going to say like black
(30:00):
power, right and they get it andso like good on you, michael
gottlieb, who is the the writerand director of this film.
Good on you.
That is amazing and it stuckwith me.
That is like like other thanHollywood's clothing and affect.
(30:21):
That was the scene that Iremember being like oh, I loved
that part and like part of thatis because I always, I always
like the like give them theirown back kind of kind of thing
about the underdog in movies.
But watching it last night andjust realizing like oh my god,
(30:42):
that moment is so significant inthis insignificant little like
cotton candy fluff of a of amovie I mean, that is the
project of deep thoughts.
yeah, and so I want to talkabout like why I loved Hollywood
(31:04):
as a character so much.
I'm not going to say like.
I know that this was not thefirst gay character I
encountered and I'm sure it'sprobably not the first like
fully realized gay character Iencountered.
But I can't recall a gaycharacter who had such a heroic
(31:26):
part and who throughout istreated with dignity and respect
.
There is one joke at hisexpense there is a point where,
after Jonathan is offered thevice president position, he
(31:49):
takes Emmy into the ladies' roomso they can have some privacy
to tell her about the job.
And then they're, a bunch ofthe staff are like listening in,
and like he's talking to thedummy again.
And so they're all listening in.
And then Hollywood comes by andhe's like oh no, no, I know you
(32:09):
are not eavesdropping withoutme.
And they're like is that mybeloved Jonathan in there?
They're like yes, and he's likewell, I need to go in.
And so they're like you can'tgo in there.
He's like oh, yes, I can.
And so he goes in and of courseEmmy turns into a mannequin.
And then Hollywood asksJonathan, please help me make a
(32:32):
window.
Like that was my job.
And like you're outpacing meand I need to know what it is.
You do, I need your help.
And Jonathan feels like he can'tdo it without Emmy and so he's
like I don't know, I don't knowif I can, and like Hollywood
starts crying.
He's like you know, I thought,like I thought we were friends,
and then, like Jonathan's likeokay, and so Hollywood starts
(32:55):
sobbing in that very flamboyant,over-the-top kind of way and a
man comes out of the men's roomand says who's that crying?
And one of the women says tohim it's either our new VP, a
dummy, or the fairy, and it's sogross.
But it's also so much moregentle than it could have been.
(33:17):
But it's gross, but that is inthe movie.
That is the only thing that isat his expense and it is a
throwaway character.
So I feel like in a lot of ways, this does.
This was like a push forwardwhen we needed it and like we
(33:41):
kind of needed it to be in thisintellectual candy movie Mm-hmm,
because we're not taking themovie seriously, so we can.
So it slipped in.
So it slipped in.
Yeah, it's a spoonful of sugarand Meshach Taylor does a
fantastic job.
He gives like, even with theflamboyance he gives like he has
(34:04):
fun with this character.
But this character is a realperson and the writing allows.
He's not asexual, he's not thisover-the-top flamboyant
character who has never had sex,who doesn't have relationships,
who you know and who is notsacrificed at the end or
anything like that.
Now we never see Albert oranything along those lines, but
(34:28):
I don't think that 1987 couldhave handled that, to be honest.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
That was like when I was texting you last night.
I was like this movie issurprisingly great.
That's part of what it was, andthe other thing that I want to
point out is so there'sHollywood and then there is
Jonathan's character, first ofall pushing back against Felix
like the homophobia that wasperfectly normal in 1987,
(34:57):
calling it out you're a bigotedjerk.
And then putting his arm aroundHollywood when Hollywood is
upset about his recent breakup.
So I saw a film analysis lastnight and I'll link to it in the
show notes that reminded mebecause I had forgotten the
timeline that this was at aboutthe same time when Princess
(35:17):
Diana made headlines for goingto a hospital that was treating
HIV and AIDS patients.
She made headlines because sheshook their hands and made a
statement saying you're notputting yourself in danger by
shaking the hands or huggingpeople who have HIV or AIDS.
Because people were at thattime, were even afraid to be in
(35:41):
the same room with someone whowas gay.
And so when Hollywood talksabout being upset and is upset
about having broken up withAlbert, jonathan immediately
puts his arm around him.
So that was also so huge andsubversive Mm-hmm At that time
(36:10):
At that time, and just EstelleGetty's role in this was also
this I didn't realize.
In that same video, estelleGetty was an ally, lgbtq ally
her entire life.
She had an important boundaryin what roles she would take.
She would not take any rolesthat used homophobia as the butt
of a joke.
She did not allow any jokes tomake being queer the punchline.
(36:33):
So like right there, the factthat she was in this movie
showed that this was a moviethat recognized that there are
many ways to love and that'stotally okay.
So I also want to talk aboutlike the romance is actually
pretty great too, even thoughit's a Pygmalion story.
So Kim Cattrall's Emmy the moviejust barely passes the Bechdel
(36:57):
test because Emmy and her motheroh wait, does her mother have a
name?
Hmm, it might not pass theBechdel test.
They talk about the fact thatEmmy wants to do more than just
be married to some dude and shewants to invent things and see
the world and fly and all ofthese things.
(37:17):
And her mother says, yeah, Iknow, but that's not the way it
works for women.
And then Emmy basically becomesa muse where she inhabits the
artwork created by differentmale artists and comes alive and
she tells Jonathan like Ireally liked the way that your
(37:38):
hands felt when you werecreating me as a mannequin,
which seems so silly.
But she has made it clear sheis looking for true love and at
one point Jonathan says why meLike, maybe there's some other
guy 5,000 years from now who'sgoing to be better than me.
(37:58):
I'm just some dude.
And she's like well, I like theway that you look at the world
and the jobs he keeps gettingfired from.
He's getting fired because heis taking his time trying to
make things perfect.
So he gets fired from makingpizzas because he's trying to
(38:33):
distribute the peppers andonions and make things that are
worthy.
And she recognizes that in himthat it's not just like getting
by.
He really wants to do somethingthat is important and he
recognizes that that is trueeven in something mundane like
pizza or like Prince andCompany's window display, which
(38:57):
is kind of lovely.
And then, because she has hadthese life experiences all
throughout these 4,000 yearsthey're brief, but she is not
someone who appears with noexperience.
She has had sexual partnersbefore.
(39:18):
She has had love, but not likeyou know, the deep love that
she's looking for.
But she's had love before.
You know she's had previousboyfriends and so when she falls
in love with Jonathan, we knowit's not because he's the first
guy she's met, which I really,really appreciate.
And that's one of the thingslike why I love Kim Cattrall is
(39:39):
you get the impression that sheis uncompromising.
All of her characters feel likethey got moxie.
They're uncompromising, likeeven in these silly little like
romantic comedies, like in thisridiculous Egyptian beginning.
She's like I want all thesewonderful things and you feel
(40:00):
like you know what.
I got a lot of them and I fellin love with this ridiculous
window dresser because I gotthese cool things and he has
this quality that I've beenlooking for, even though he's
some random sculptor inPhiladelphia.
You don't get the sense thatshe's settling for some less
(40:20):
than guy.
He's not mid.
Even though he's just somerandom guy in Philadelphia.
You know there really is asense that he is worthy and
somehow there's somethingspecial about him.
Speaker 2 (40:33):
He's not just a dude.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
He's not just a dude with a pretty face.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Right, right.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Which in a different movie.
Sure, that's what it would beDefinitely.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
I mean most of the Born Sexy Yesterday.
Pygmalion type stories.
That's what it is.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yes, and so that that is what I like.
I really appreciate it.
I feel like there is there is asense of equality between them.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Can we talk about the ways in which she is and is not
born sexy yesterday, sure.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
She isn't, because she has agency over when she
appears and that is notsomething that you see in the
born sexy yesterday.
So, like Leeloo from FifthElement did not get to choose.
Right when she came back,whereas emmy has made it clear
that like, oh, I like this one,I'm coming back for this one, um
(41:23):
, and so that agency reallymakes a big difference, like I'm
gonna show up now because Ilike this guy and so, so that
that is.
That is very counter to pornsexy yesterday.
Because that level of agency,the wisdom, like when he's like
I don't think I can do thiswithout you, and she's like, yes
, you can, I help you, but youhave that creativity within you.
(41:45):
That is like the manic pixiedream girl Wise beyond her years
.
Yeah, that's part of the trope,I can sex you into being the man
you can be.
That's part of the trope I cansex you into being the man you
can be.
So that's part of it, and thelike helping you break free of
(42:05):
your own mental prison, kind ofbullshit.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
But it's also hard to say, because the fact that
Jonathanathan embraces, like youknow what.
I'm just gonna be the weird guywho carries a mannequin around
is why he's worthy of her, youknow?
Speaker 1 (42:30):
yeah, I see why you say it's not quite aligned but
it's definitely adjacent, it's,it's, it rhymes, it rhymes.
There's a scene where sheaccidentally stumbles onto a
huge stereo and music startsplaying.
She's like, oh, where are themusicians?
So she hasn't come back for twoor three hundred years,
apparently, and so there'smoments like that where it's
(42:53):
like Like squarely in the BornSexy Yesterday with that wonder
and she sees like thisdepartment store they sell the
weirdest shit.
So she sees like a hang gliderand like one of the things.
One of her dreams has alwaysbeen to fly, and it's this huge,
gorgeous, like old fashioned,like from the early 20th century
(43:13):
department stores and in factthey said it in Philadelphia,
because they specificallyscouted to find a department
store that looked like this andso she flies from like the
seventh or eighth floor all theway down, and that also feels
like born sexy yesterday sort ofmoments.
When it comes to that, though,that sort of story also needs to
(43:35):
not needs to be told.
But that kind of like wonder,that kind of like I can do
wonderful things, I'm not madabout telling that story you
know, no sure.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I mean I think wonder is great and like it's
interesting to think about thegender, like the difference
between like this and like big,where the born sex yesterday
character is actually a man, youknow, which was actually really
gross because he was 13 orwhatever he was.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
but I definitely think that adults need to be
reminded that like wonder andjoy are allowed and like it's
complicated yeah yeah, yeah itis, and the fact that what makes
her fully alive is love,because had the mannequin been
destroyed, she would have justbecome a muse again.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Some, some number of years later, she wouldn't be
gone.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
She would be gone to jonathan, right, but it's a love
story.
And she does does say, like, ofall the things she wants, she
also wants.
It's not that she doesn't wantmarriage, it's not that she
doesn't want that part of life,she just wants it on her own
terms.
And she has said to Jonathanlike you are special, you are
(44:48):
different from the other menthat I've been with.
So you know it's a both ends.
Like this is part of, like it's.
It fits within this particulargenre.
It's a romantic comedy and it'stelling this specific type of
story.
And whose story is it?
Like that's?
That's the other question.
Like is this?
Is this emmy's story?
Is this jonathan's story?
(45:08):
Is this hollywood story?
And, honestly, I'm not entirelysure.
You know, my little romanticheart loved that the ending
happened the way that it did,because it, you know, allowed
them to be together and you knowhe was worthy of this amazing
(45:30):
woman, who was so incredible.
She was able to become a musesimply by asking for it.
But is that really what wasbest for her?
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know, I don'tknow well, we're running short
(45:53):
on time.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Do you have have any other key insights you want to
share before I wrap us?
Speaker 1 (45:56):
up.
One last thing is the janitorwho stopped the machine.
He then starts kissingmannequins and he finds Roxy,
who had been covered in detritusby the machine and knocked out,
and he kisses her and he's like, oh, it's a miracle it works.
And she's like get off of me.
And like it's Roxy is donewrong by this movie.
(46:20):
Yeah, sounds like it, and then,like you know, he starts, she
runs away and is fired and likepoor Roxy, but then at the end
like he dives into the detritusand starts trying to kiss other
mannequins and it's really like.
I know it's done for comediceffect, but it's gross, yeah,
it's gross.
Speaker 2 (46:39):
It's like the no, no, no that's gross, yeah, yeah,
anyway, all right.
So let me see if I can reflectback to you what we talked about
.
So this film maybe passesbecksell if emmy's mom has a
name, but, but just barely.
So we'll start there.
I think the thing that you lovedthe most about it was this
(47:00):
character of Hollywood played byMeshack Taylor, who was
flamboyant and stereotypical asa gay character from 1987.
It was a fully formed characterwho was not the butt of the joke
, except for one very specificexception and the person who
(47:25):
said it.
It was sort of an offhandedinsult from a minor character
who wasn't really more of anextra, allowed to have a sexual
relationship with someone offscreen and like be this fully
formed character and friend andbe comforted by a straight male
friend, physically comfortedwith his arm around him in the
era when princess diana had to,like issue statements that said
(47:47):
it's safe to shake hands withand hug hiv and aids patients
and and gay people in general,and how subversive that was.
And then add to the subversionin the specific scene that Baby
Emily remembered, whereHollywood used a fire hose to
keep law enforcement at bay,which is significant both that
(48:09):
this was a Black character doingthat, with sort of echoes like
the inversion of those imagesfrom the civil rights movement
from Birmingham, but also thathe was a gay character.
So then we're also thinkingabout Stonewall and the ways in
which that marginalizedcommunity, or the doubly
marginalized community- of blackgay folks like Marsha P Johnson
(48:30):
, who were brutalized by lawenforcement, so and how
subversive that was.
And you noted that thissubversion and this like
inversion that we see withHollywood with the fire hose on
the cops, is in this like kindof throwaway, like cotton candy
movie that like everybody wentto because it was just fluff.
(48:53):
And that's kind of the point.
And, honestly, that's kind ofthe point of this whole project
of deep thoughts about stupidshit, because that shit is in
there whether we're payingattention or not.
In this case it's somethingthat we actually you and I are
glad to see.
So often it's stuff that we'renot glad to see.
You've spent some time thinkingabout Emmy as the well, I guess
(49:16):
Jonathan is Pygmalion, but Emmyas the sort of creation in the
Pygmalion myth, whether or notshe chose to come to life now
with this creator, she hadagency, it sounds like to even
(49:44):
to remain human, like it was thegods granted her a wish, rather
than like the strength ofJonathan's love or something
like that.
So it was really about her andshe was the center of that
transformation, as opposed toJonathan, and that feels really
about her and she was the centerof that transformation as
opposed to Jonathan, and thatfeels really good.
There are ways, though, inwhich she fits the born sexy
yesterday with some of thewonder, which is not a bad thing
(50:05):
, but it just does sort of fitwith the manic pixie dream.
But the fact that we know shehas had previous boyfriends,
that we know she has hadprevious sexual partners, is
very different from thetraditional kind of born sexy
yesterday idea.
Let me see you also.
You named Estelle Getty as amarker that this movie was not
(50:25):
one that would make homophobialike a joke.
I think it's really interestingthat you sort of name like here
it's this genre, and so we havethis romance.
That was right at the end, likeis this actually what's best for
this 4,000-year-old entity?
I don't know.
Like 20th century marriage,heterosexual marriage I'm not so
sure that's happy ending.
Sorry, maybe I'm protectinghere, but I think that's an
(50:47):
interesting question.
And the other question I thinkthat you asked that I find
really, really interesting iswho is the protagonist?
Whose story is this?
I think that's a reallyfascinating question.
Is it Emmy's story?
Is it Jonathan's story?
Is it Hollywood's story?
I think that's a really, reallyinteresting question.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Well, one thing that I one of the things that I said
is that, like this film issurprisingly great, that doesn't
mean it's without problems.
It uses sexual harassment as ajoke.
Roxy is really done wrong bythis movie, like she's shown to
be materialistic and things likethat, but she doesn't deserve
what happens to her, and theidea that Kim Cattrall is
(51:23):
Egyptian is not okay, right, youalso named the fact, regarding
Roxy, that that scene, which isin some ways ridiculous that
this person is jealous of amannequin also is plausible the
way they set it up in thecontext, yeah, which I think
speaks to the power of thewriting
yes, yeah, yeah.
(51:44):
In this ridiculous movie, like,there's a reason why it's a
cult classic, like, uh, eventhough, like roger ebert gave it
a half a star, he hated it, wow.
But it is a cult classic inpart because of Hollywood there
are people who love this becauseof Hollywood.
But then also there issomething very cohesive about
this storytelling.
And then I just want to give myprops to Kim Cattrall.
(52:07):
I really, really think that shegot Moxie and there's just
something about like she feelslike and I know this is somewhat
behind-the-scenes stuff andmeta but she is unapologetic and
non-compromising and I feellike she takes characters who
are unapologetic andnon-compromising in a lot of
ways, even in fluffy littlemovies like this.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yeah, yeah, cool.
Well, I'm glad to be remindedof this film.
So thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
it's, it's if you want to, if you want to just
like have an afternoon with somepopcorn, and just it's, it's
worthwhile.
Speaker 2 (52:43):
It's worthwhile, it's a delight so next week, next
week, I am scheduled to bringyou my deep thoughts about mrs
doubtfire oh, very interesting,See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(53:04):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
(53:25):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (53:32):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
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