September 16, 2025 • 49 mins
Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
When I was a little kid and I got scared, the Rain Man would come and sing to me.
Join us this week as Tracie shares her deep thoughts about the 1988 film Rain Man, for which Dustin Hoffman won the Oscar for his nuanced portrayal of autistic savant Raymond Babbitt. This comedy/drama, written by Barry Morrow and directed by Barry Levinson, was singled-handedly responsible for introducing autism to American society, it also prompted Raymond's verbal tics to enter the pop culture lexicon as comedy shorthand and left much of our culture believing that autism is synonymous with math savantism.
While the film was careful to show Raymond's dignity and had at least one medical professional point out that his neurodivergence is a difference in psychology ("His brain doesn't work like other people's"), it also conflates "improvement" with Raymond acting more neurotypical--as if autism is something that needs to be cured. (In addition, Tom Cruise's Charlie Babbitt is a jerk who keeps yelling at Raymond which can't be good for his mental health.)
We agree that you are an excellent driver. Please listen along while you drive excellently.
Content warning: The film uses the R slur for disabled individuals, which we discuss in the episode.
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
Find the Guy girls on social media:
instagram.com/guygirlsmedia
fb.com/dtasspodcast
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And I think we are meant to really feel for Charlie
Like he's our hero, he is ourprotagonist, and also like he's
just a jerk.
Like even by the end he's justkind of a jerk, and that like
causes some I don't knowdissatisfaction in me.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
(00:42):
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't?
You know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 Barry Levinson filmRain man with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and with you.
Let's dive in, em.
I know you've seen this moviewe probably saw it together but
(01:03):
what's in your head about Rain?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Man.
So we actually we were textingback and forth as you were
watching it.
You were saying, actually Ikind of feel like maybe you
should have watched this one,and I was like I don't think I'd
have the stomach to.
Because what I remember aboutthis film is it was the first
time I had any introduction toautism.
Introduction to autism, as Irecall.
(01:29):
We saw it in the theatertogether with our dad.
I had to double check with you.
I couldn't remember if it wasin the film or if our dad talked
to us about it afterwards orboth.
Prior to this, the culturallexicon was idiot savant, which
is just horrifying to me.
That way of looking at things.
I kind of have thisunderstanding of like before and
after this film, like eventhough I was so young when it
(01:53):
came out.
But before this film, peopledidn't talk about autism.
And then, after this film, itwas something we all understood,
at least in terms of how DustinHoffman portrayed it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
We at least knew it existed.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Culturally.
What we knew was that it madepeople repeat things over and
over again.
As I mentioned before westarted recording, something
that became part of the lexiconwas the way that Dustin
Hoffman's character repeated theword definitely.
That became something thatpeople just did.
The other aspect of it was wehad this sense that, like if you
drop toothpicks, you'd be ableto know exactly how many there
(02:29):
were.
So those are the things thatstick in my mind about it.
Now, why I don't think I'd havethe stomach to revisit this is I
have a dear friend whose son ison the autism spectrum and
seeing a portrayal of what myfriend's son lives with that I'm
(02:53):
sure was well-meaning I'm sureit was a very well-meaning
portrayal in a lot of ways, Ithink would just really rub me
the wrong way, because DustinHoffman's a neurotypical actor
and there's a lot of things, alot of misconceptions and
beliefs about autism baked intothis film that are just not true
(03:20):
, about the lived experience ofpeople on the autism spectrum
that I know.
I personally would have troublewatching and not being
frustrated by so specificallythings in the film.
I remember Tom Cruise early onnot remembering that he had an
older brother saying that whenhe was scared when he was little
the Rain man would come to him,and it was later he found out
(03:42):
it was because his older brother, raymond, had been
institutionalized because of hisautism.
I remember them.
When Tom Cruise's characterrealizes that Raymond can like
do math so quickly in his head,he takes him to like either
Atlantic City or Las Vegas.
There's one scene of themcoming down an escalator in like
tuxes, and I remember there's apoint where I think it's Tom
(04:06):
Cruise's in bed is having sexwith a woman and Raymond comes
in and sits down on the bed, islike completely unaware of the
inappropriateness socially ofwhat he's doing.
He sits on the bed and watchesTV, and those are kind of the
like the snapshots of what Iremember.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I also have a friend who has a son who's on the
spectrum, and several months agoshe and I were talking and
talking about this project andshe asked if we would ever, you
know, do this film, becausethere's a lot of things that are
great and a lot of things thatare not great about this film,
and so she just wanted.
She asked me if we would do adeep thoughts treatment of Rain
man, and so I put it on the listand so here we are.
(04:48):
So that's why this is actuallyfor Rachel.
So let me give you a quicksnapshot of the destination and
then I'll do a synopsis.
So I think we were not alone.
I mean, we were kids, but wewere not alone.
Like for much of Americansociety, this movie was an
introduction to the concept ofautism and in 1988, I think it
(05:12):
was somewhat revolutionary thatRaymond is actually treated with
full human dignity.
And also, as you predicted,there are some sort of
fundamental assumptions bakedinto this film that are
problematic, the core of itbeing that the neurotypical way
is right and good and better,and that we need to do
(05:37):
everything we can to help theneurodivergent person behave as
close to neurotypical behavioras possible, and that that is
the goal and that is the goodthing, to have that happen.
So I think that's really thecore.
There will be differentiterations of that.
That is the core of sort of theproblem, I think, with this
(05:58):
film and we can get into some ofthe specific ways that
manifests in this film.
So let me give you a synopsis.
So we first meet CharlieBabbitt.
That's Tom Cruise's character.
He is a slick wheeler dealer inLos Angeles.
He has a small.
So you said Tom Cruise'scharacter, I think we got it
(06:21):
Well.
Sometimes we play it tight.
He runs a small car dealershipwhere he's importing.
He's currently importing fourLamborghinis from Italy and they
are Stuck in Customs and EPA,and so we learned through the
course.
He has two employees Susanna,who is both employee and
girlfriend.
She's played by the Italianactress Valeria Golino.
(06:43):
And then the other employee isLenny.
He's played by Ralph Seymour.
These three people are in thiswarehouse, all three are on the
phone.
It's like chaotic and we seethrough this scene that Charlie
Babbitt Tom Cruise's character.
He does not break under stress,he knows exactly what to say.
(07:07):
He is the consummate con artist.
He's coaching Lenny on what tosay to the customers who want to
go with another dealer becausethey don't have their cars yet
and they want their downpayments back, which Charlie
doesn't have to give them.
So that's how we meet them.
They decide to take a break.
Susanna wants to go to PalmSprings.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So they're driving to Palm Springs and in the car
they get a call One of thosebrick car phone car phones from
the factory and the fact that hehas one of those, I'm sure at
the time would have indicatedwhat a wheeler dealer he is too.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, exactly.
So he gets a call from Lenny.
Lenny's so sorry, charlie's dadhas died.
So they turn around.
They go to Cincinnati to thefuneral.
Now we see again, likeCharlie's watching from a
distance, his father's estranged, like they were not close and
he's just not affected.
His dad has left him theprize-winning rose bushes and
(08:13):
the antique car.
It's a 49 Buick Roadster, likea convertible, and the $3
million of the estate are beingleft to an anonymous benefactor
in trust.
And now we see Charlie get upset.
So through various connivingand charming, he manages to
(08:38):
discover who the anonymous, orat least where the anonymous
benefactor is and who thetrustee is.
So he goes to this place,walbrook, and we discover that
Walbrook is a home fordevelopmentally and physically
disabled adults.
So we see several residents whohave Down syndrome, we have
several residents who areotherwise developmentally
disabled, like watching TV orwhatever.
(08:59):
And we see Charlie sit downwith Dr Bruner, who is the head
of this place, and Dr Brunersays like I'm not getting any
benefit from this.
Walbrook is not getting anybenefit from this.
This is for this person, theanonymous benefactor.
And Charlie is like what isthis an ex-girlfriend of my
dad's?
(09:20):
Like what the hell, like that'smy money, I should have that
money.
He's really upset.
He doesn't get anywhere with DrBrunner.
He comes back outside andSusanna, the girlfriend and
employee, is sitting in thepassenger side seat of the
antique car and Dustin Hoffmanis sitting in the driver's seat
and he's saying like Susanna's,like this isn't your car, this
(09:41):
is my boyfriend's car.
And Hoffman's.
Raymond is like no, this is my.
I drive this car.
I drive it slow on the driveway, but only on Saturdays, never
on Wednesdays.
Today's a Wednesday, whatever.
Like that riffing that we knowfrom Dustin Hoffman.
Charlie comes out and is likewhat is happening?
Who is this guy?
Get out of the car.
But then Raymond says somethingabout the car that is accurate.
(10:01):
It used to have brown leatherseats.
These red ones aren't as good.
And Charlie's like wait, it diduse that brown leather seats.
And Raymond says what kind ofcar it is, which we have heard
Charlie say like all the fulldescription.
I don't remember, it doesn'tmatter.
Raymond says it all.
It says how many miles are onit and Charlie says whose car
(10:25):
was it?
Raymond says it was dad's car.
Who's your dad?
And he says the same name it'shis dad's name.
What was your mom's name, sayshis mom's name and she died and
it's like the exact date andlike Charlie's like what the
heck is happening.
So they go back inside and hesays to Dr Brunner, who is this
guy?
No-transcript with him to LA.
(11:11):
But like Raymond says yeah tolike everything, without fully
understanding the implications,travel montage ensues that takes
about I don't know two millionhours of movie time.
Raymond's going to fly them toLA.
I mean, excuse me, charlie'sgoing to fly them to LA.
(11:32):
Raymond has a freak out becauseit's not safe to fly.
So they drive in the Buick,they're on the highway and they
are going past a crash andRaymond like freaks out out,
gets out of the car and says,like highway travel is unsafe,
so now they have to go on likeroads, surface roads from
Cincinnati to LA.
(11:54):
Raymond has all kinds of quirksand things.
He needs things to be in acertain way to feel comfortable
and safe.
So like the bed has to be nearthe window, he he eats his food
with toothpicks.
He does all the things.
So in these two million hoursof road trip, effectively we
watch Charlie abuse Raymond, noton purpose, not with malice,
(12:16):
but he doesn't get it and hejust keeps yelling at him to
like stop being an idiot, don'tbe a retard.
She uses the r word oh my godand like, wow, he freaks out and
yells and then he does thething to accommodate, to watch
judge wapner at three like infact, at one point they knock on
(12:39):
a farmhouse door and end upwatching the people's court in
these people's living room withall these kids around.
Meanwhile the business stuff isgoing really poorly.
The cars are stuck in EPA, thecars are stuck in customs.
It's going really really poorlyand in fact now the cars have
been taken back somehow theylost the cars as well.
(13:01):
That's when we've seen him.
We've seen Raymond with thetoothpicks.
As you say, he counted theexact number of toothpicks that
fell on the floor.
And then, in the middle ofTexas, charlie's like at his
wit's end and he wants somethingto like fix I'm putting quotes
(13:21):
around that His brother.
So he takes him to a doctor andthe doctor's like this I mean
the doctor actually gives one ofthe best, by today's standards,
explanations.
His brain just worksdifferently than ours.
You know this.
It's not a thing you can fix,it's just he's just wired
differently.
But the doctor's the one whoactually points out the, is
(13:43):
curious about the savant natureand asks him to do a bunch of
like really complicatedarithmetic that he does very
quickly in his head.
The doctor confirms with acalculator, but then he says,
raymond, how much does the candybar cost?
And he says, oh, I don't knowabout a hundred dollars.
And he says, well, how muchdoes a brand new buick cost?
He said I don't know, maybe ahundred dollars.
So we see that he is a savantwith some math, but like,
(14:08):
actually like getting around,like living on his own, he
doesn't have.
He doesn't have those skillslike a light bulb goes off over
his head and he buys a deck ofcards and asks and like, throws
(14:29):
down like almost the whole deckin front of Raymond, face up and
then says what do I have leftin my hand?
And Raymond accurately namesall of the cards that are left
in his hand.
So they hightail it to LasVegas, which we saw them drive
through previously.
And, as you remember, charliebuys Raymond's.
It's a suit, not aux, but avery nice 1988 suit With the big
stripper pads.
I'm sure, yeah.
(14:50):
And Dustin Hoffman.
They're wearing kind ofmatching suits in this gray,
shiny gray material and DustinHoffman's is double-breasted and
Tom Cruise's is not.
And they sit down at ablackjack table and Raymond bets
two if it's a good, if the nextcard is good, and one if it's
bad, and they win tens ofthousands of dollars.
(15:11):
They come to the attention ofsecurity who are like watching
the video and they don't see acounter, they don't see like a
computer, they don't know how hecould possibly be doing this,
because no one could count cardsthat are six, like a six deck
set of cards they they're toldto like.
Eventually they're told toleave, like security says, get
out of the state and don't comeback, but we're not going to
(15:32):
take your winnings from you.
They make it to LA and Dr Bruner, charlie has requested like he
wants custody of his brother now, or that was the idea from the
beginning.
And so Dr Bruner has flown toLA and they're going to have a
meeting with a court appointedpsychiatrist who will make a
recommendation to the court,like the night before, and
(16:07):
offers him 250, meets charlie,thank you, and offers him 250,
000 to just let it go and letraymond go back to the
institution in cincinnati and aweek ago charlie might have
taken that deal.
But now he actually feelsconnected to his brother.
So he says forget it, I'm noteven mad about the money anymore
, I'm mad that you kept mybrother from me like I would
have liked to have known himmore than these past six days in
(16:29):
the actual meeting with thecourt-appointed psychiatrist.
It's actually kind of painful.
This is a thing that I thinkthe movie maker was trying to
like.
This is the there'sicism, Ithink, in the movie makers of
the institutional.
Because this psychiatrist saysokay, well, let's ask Raymond
what he wants.
(16:50):
Do you want to live with yourbrother, charlie, in LA?
And he says yeah.
And he says do you want to goback to Walbrook?
And he says yeah.
And then the psychiatrist likethat made his point.
But he like keeps doing it tothe point that Charlie says
enough already, doc, his point.
But he like keeps doing it tothe point that Charlie says
enough already, doc, you madeyour point, you don't need to
humiliate him.
(17:10):
And the doctors both leave andCharlie and Raymond have a
moment where Charlie says likeI'm probably not going to see
you as much anymore and I justwant you to know.
I'm really glad that you're mybrother and they have a moment.
They're sitting close andRaymond kind of leans in and
rests his forehead on Charlie'sforehead, which is the most sort
of physical touch that Raymond,raymond's very touch averse,
(17:32):
very touch averse.
The very final scene Charlieputs Raymond with Dr Brunner on
a train to go back to Cincinnati.
So in the middle there, the bitthat you named, that he
realizes that Rain man, hisimaginary friend who he mentions
in the beginning after the dadhas died, was in fact Raymond.
(17:55):
That was how he said Raymondwhen he was a child, because
Raymond was only two when he wasput away.
Charlie was only two whenRaymond was put away.
Raymond was a teenager.
No-transcript of the two ofthem from when Charlie was a
(18:34):
baby.
For these 20 years or 25 yearsI guess, there are moments like
it goes from Charlie being atotal dick to him, like not
treating Raymond as a human,calling him names and things, to
the end where, like he's likehappily accommodating the
(18:57):
specific needs because he caresabout him.
So that's the basic, like gistof the thing.
Susanna plays a small role, sheactually.
The scene you remember is thevery first night of the
kidnapping and Charlie andSusanna are having sex and
Raymond hears their like moaningand is curious and whatever.
(19:22):
He follows the noises and issort of mimicking them and ends
up in the bedroom the TV's on.
He sits down on the end of thebed and whatever.
He follows the noises and issort of mimicking them and ends
up in the bedroom the TV's on.
He sits down on the end of thebed and watches.
Charlie freaks out because ofhow inappropriate it is and like
yells at him.
Susanna says he doesn'tunderstand, he has no idea what
this means.
You need to go apologize to him.
And he goes to Raymond's roomand instead of apologizing.
He like yells at him some more.
Susanna leaves.
(19:43):
She's like you just use people,you're using him, you're using
me.
I can't take it.
She comes back in Las Vegas andso she is there for the
redemption, like Charlie'sredeemed moment.
She also has a moment withRaymond where he met like there
(20:08):
was a prostitute at the bar.
He was like Raymond wasfascinated by her necklace that
she was playing with and so shethought he was a potential John.
And she comes over and she'schatting with him and then she
realizes he's not all there andshe leaves.
But he says what time is ourdate?
And she says 10 o'clock.
So he thinks he has a date withthis woman.
And of course she doesn't showup when he goes to the bar to
(20:29):
meet her.
So Susanna like sort ofcomforts him and says were you
going to?
He and Charlie had learned todance for the date.
So Susanna dances with him inthe elevator and then gives him
a kiss and she says how was that?
And he says what?
Which she says again to thedoctor later in the interview.
(20:54):
So that's the gist.
There are other specific momentsbut we don't need to go into
them, so I'll just get it out ofthe way, because we almost
always do this.
This film does not pass theBechdel test because there are
not.
There's only one named femalecharacter in that Susanna,
that's it, that's all there is.
The dead mom has a name, but wenever see her on screen.
So I don't have anything elseto say about that, but I like
(21:15):
sort of noting it.
So, as a reminder, listeners,the Bechdel test are there at
least two named femalecharacters?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
This one doesn't even pass thefirst question.
So there's that.
I think I want to delve a littledeeper into the assumptions
(21:35):
about autism and neurodivergencein general that are sort of
baked into this film.
This film was written by a mannamed Barry Morrow, who
apparently got the idea from twothings.
One was he had a friend who was, I don't believe, on the
(21:57):
spectrum but was developmentally, intellectually, disabled.
This friend of his was slatedto go to be institutionalized,
and so Morrow actually kidnappedhim that's the word that he
used in the little research thatI did to prevent him from
needing to go back into theinstitution.
And then, apparently, thefilmmaker, the screenwriter met
(22:22):
a man called Kim Peek who was asavant, who it's unclear to me
whether he was also on thespectrum, but he was in fact a
savant.
So he had that eidetic memory,he had that super quick math
skills and when Morrow met MrPeake, that sort of mashed up
with his experience of trying tosave his friend from the
(22:45):
institution and the idea forRain man was born.
So it's not based on a truestory, though there were sort of
true vignettes that got mashedup together.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But it was written by someone who did not have any
direct experience of autism.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That is correct and in fact the original screenplay
didn't have the word in it andit's important to remember.
Today, in 2025, that seemsunimaginable because I think
everyone knows someone now.
But in the movie, even whenthey're in texas at the doctor's
(23:24):
office, the nurse who's likesort of the intake nurse is like
he's artistic and like even theword and charlie says I don't
know what that word means whendr bruner first says it and
that's when actually bruner sayswe used to call them idiot
savants.
So the movie does name what youremember, so like.
(23:45):
It's worth kind of rememberingthat in 1988 the, the cultural
understanding and comfort with,or at least familiarity, if not
comfort with, the spectrum wasnot there and Morrow didn't know
anyone personally.
(24:06):
Now he did.
He and Hoffman, and maybe evenLevinson and Cruise, did
research with people who were onthe spectrum.
So Dustin Hoffman spent a yearpreparing for the film.
He met Mr Peek.
He met multiple people who areon the spectrum to see how they
(24:27):
interact with others in theworld, to see their mannerisms,
so that he could deliver theperformance that he does.
But there was no oneneurodivergent on the writing
team, on the creative team.
All of the neurodivergent folkswho were involved.
If you can say that in themaking of this film were objects
(24:48):
of study, they weren't active.
Participants in the making ofthis film were objects of study.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
They weren't active participants in the creation.
I'm thinking it's kind of likehow the Pixar team went to
Australia to look at fish or howthe Disney animators went to
Hawaii Right Exactly, ratherthan interviewing and including
and having them be part of thewriter's team Right Exactly.
(25:12):
Something I mentioned before.
We started recording in 2005,.
When I was getting my master'sdegree in education, I had to
take a course on inclusion inthe classroom and one of the
things I learned in that coursewhich horrified me as late as I
think the 70s autism was thoughtto be caused by refrigerator
(25:35):
mothers that was the term thatwas in my textbook as in cold
mothers, as in mothers who werenot nurturing enough to their
children, caused their childrento be autistic.
Which boy, howdy?
Is that going to make it hardto get diagnosis, because you're
not going to want your child tobe diagnosed with that?
And then with my experiencewith my friend who has a child
(25:57):
on the spectrum she has ayounger child who is not on the
spectrum, but they have beenmuch more vigilant about testing
, testing, and so there's a lotof stuff that with this second
child, that would have been the80s and be like wow, what a
quirky kid which pings radarsnow, in part because of his
(26:19):
older brother, but also in partbecause we have a better
understanding of autism.
And so when you say there wasno neurodivergent in the
writer's room, there probablywas.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
That's fair.
That's a fair point.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
The other thing that I think I want to kind of like
dive in on a little bit with.
Like you mentioned before, westarted recording that Dustin
Hoffman won an Oscar for this.
I'm sure that, like he's anexcellent actor he really is and
he's very exacting the factthat he spent a year doing
research, this movie, I think,is well-meaning.
Hoffman brought dignity to thatcharacter, and even the Tom
(26:57):
Cruise slick-wheeler-dealerprick, who learns to recognize
that his brother, who's autistic, is actually human and loves
him and he loves his brother too, is all very well-meaning too,
is all very well-meaning.
And that immersion even thoughit's kind of like going to
(27:18):
Australia to look at the fish tolearn how to draw them I mean,
on the one hand I feel likethat's what the best you can get
in the 1980s from aneurotypical actor who takes his
craft very seriously and doeswant to bring humanity and
dignity to a character, on theother hand it's just like, oh
man, seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I mean I actually think they did as well as they
could have in 1988.
I genuinely believe that In the40 years since, the ways in
which it's done a disserviceright, I think there's many ways
.
I mean one of them is thesavant component of Raymond's
(28:02):
character is actually fairlyrare and to the extent that
Raymond has it is extremely rare.
And yet it was the firstintroduction that most of
America had to this condition.
And so there's like, as yousaid, there was this sense that
like we all neurotypicals, or atleast not autistic, holistic if
(28:27):
we're neurodivergent, thank youholistic people who you know
then expect that kind of savantbehavior and are disappointed,
like like dance, monkey dance.
You know, I think that is adisservice that was done to
folks on the spectrum by thismovie, something.
(28:48):
There's a line of films andanother pop culture or media
that we could draw of sort ofquestioning skepticism around
institutions right, like OneFlew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and
there are others where we sortof see institutions and we say
like that's not what he needs,he just needs some time with
(29:09):
family, and at one point Charlieeven says he's made more
progress with me in the pastweek than he did with you in 20
years, sort of the implicationthat the institution just was a
holding place and enabled like.
The undercurrent of this that Ithink is potentially dangerous
(29:29):
is Charlie's implication is thatby allowing Raymond to have his
rituals and the things the wayhe wanted them, that the
institution was enabling badbehavior.
That should have been correctedand that's the thing that feels
unhealthy Like.
Institutions can be bad andthey can do a disservice to
(29:50):
their participants.
100%, no question, maybe evenmost of the time.
But the reason that this film issuggesting that I take on
bridge at, because again what Isaid at the beginning, the
fundamental assumption is thatRaymond will be better I'm
(30:11):
putting quotes around that wordif he could learn to behave more
like a neurotypical, if hecould learn to make eye contact,
if he could learn to stoprepeating who's on first all the
time, if he could learn to likeaccept hugs when they're
offered.
And that's not better.
That just makes neurotypicalpeople more comfortable.
(30:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Well, and we even so, when I was teaching, there were
a few kids who would comethrough who, because of their
IEP, would have like specialdispensation to like maybe have
a cell phone because one oftheir, one of their stims was to
check the time or somethinglike that.
And I would have colleagues whowould be like you know well,
(30:55):
they should do what everyoneelse does and the thing is like
to have this be part of theiriep.
And if you're not familiar,that's a individual education
program.
I think plan, individualeducation plan for students with
special needs, specialeducation program, that sort of
thing, that sense that thischild needs to conform, because
(31:19):
that's what everybody does whenhaving like getting to the point
where they're, they are in highschool, because that's what I
was teaching and this is ontheir IEP.
This is a need.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Well, we wouldn't say that about a kid who had a
hearing deficiency if theyneeded an desk, but because of
how she got around she needed toleave early.
She was not like fightingthrough the halls with everyone
else.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No one had an issue with that.
Some of it has to do with whatappears to be invisible, and I
(32:05):
don't like autism.
This is another aspect of whatyou're talking about.
It's not a disability, it's adifferent way of brain wiring.
There is a place for that kindof brain wiring in our society,
as long as we are open to it.
Now there are some people onthe autism spectrum who, for
whatever reason, are going tostruggle in our society and will
(32:27):
need more structure, will notbe able to live independently,
will need to live in, will notbe able to live independently,
will need to live in aninstitution for whatever reason.
But again, that doesn't makethem disabled or wrong and it
just makes them brainwireddifferently.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
This film.
Actually, I think in some waysit portrayed Raymond as like the
audience has no question Idon't think that Raymond can't
live independently.
Like near the climax of thefilm he tries, he's like in
Charlie's home and he's liketrying to make himself a snack
and he turns on the toaster ovenand he can't get the door open
(33:04):
because he's doing it wrong,whatever, and he gets distracted
and he goes into something elseand then there's smoke and it
sets off the smoke detector andhe has a major freak out as a
result.
I mean, anybody would.
But then because of his autism,the way that he freaks out is
big and loud and self-harming.
It's a tense moment.
Charlie wakes up and has toturn off the toaster oven and
(33:28):
take down the smoke detector andthen try and calm Raymond who
is touch averse.
So the ways that he goes to tryand calm him are not calming.
I think the audience is leftwith the sense that Raymond
can't live on his own and alsothat he has value.
The value piece is like a pushme, pull me, because Charlie
(33:51):
doesn't start to really warm upto Raymond until they win enough
to get him out of the hole,like just enough, like he needs
$80,000 for the cars to returnthe down payments and $3,500 to
reclaim his pawned Rolex, andthey win $86,000.
(34:13):
And that's when he reallystarts to like seems to
genuinely warm up to him.
And so, yes, this film, dustinHoffman's portrayal, gives
Raymond human dignity and value.
And, yes, our hero so-calleddoesn't actually warm up and
(34:34):
doesn't actually start to seehis brother as something more
than either a meal ticket or aburden, until he helps him make
$86,000, which is the preciseamount that he needs.
So it's like if Raymond's hyperfixation had been like train
schedules right, or if he hadbeen one of the most of the
(34:57):
people on the spectrum who don'thave the savant piece of
raymond's diagnosis like andcounting card was just not a
thing.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this film is like it'scomplicated and now, taken in
context, like in some ways itdid amazing things for the
community of those on thespectrum and those who love them
(35:17):
, because a lot of money wentinto research after this, after
1988 I don't think that's acoincidence right, and like a
lot of Americans were introducedto this condition, introduced
to this condition by a belovedactor who gave the man dignity
(36:09):
no-transcript of what allowedthat grifter to get a toehold
right right, yeah, the fear, yes, agreed, agreed.
I'm running out of time but Ireally want to quickly sort of
also name, like on deep thoughts.
We define the protagonist asthe person who grows and changes
(36:29):
through the course of the storyand by that definition Charlie
is most definitely theprotagonist.
He definitely grows and changes.
He sees that he was a prick.
He names himself as a prick.
We hear the story of why hebecame estranged from his father
.
That amazing car he was neverallowed to touch it.
When he was 16, he brought homean almost straight A's report
(36:51):
card and he said hey, dad, can Ideck out the car?
And dad said no, so he took itanyway and dad called the cops
on a stolen car and he and hisfriends all got stopped and
pulled over and put in jail andhis dad left.
The other guys the other guyshe was with got bailed out in a
matter of hours and his dad lefthim there for two days and he
never came out.
So that's the story that hetells of, like why they were
(37:12):
estranged.
But then his dad has tried toreach out to him many times to
like at least talk, and he hasnot called him back.
So he says I was a prick, bythe end he definitely grows.
He grows to see Raymond as ahuman being.
He realizes that Raymond washis imaginary friend, rain man,
who used to come and sing to himwhen he was sad and scared, and
(37:35):
he feels a certain amount ofresponsibility for Raymond's
institutionalization becausethey put him away to protect
Charlie.
I think that's worth noting andI think we are meant to really
feel for Charlie.
He's our hero, he is ourprotagonist and also, like he's
(37:55):
just a jerk.
Like even by the end he's justkind of a jerk and that like
causes some I don't knowdissatisfaction in me.
There's also, like a number ofmoments of like I don't know
plot holes.
Plot holes like burner shouldhave called the cops and he says
(38:17):
he didn't.
Like charlie calls him and hesays he didn't, because raymond
has always been a voluntarypatient, but then they make the
point over the two million hoursof road trip that he's he
actually needs structure andcare, he needs people who know
how to care for him.
The las vegas casino guys likeknow that they were counting
(38:38):
cards and like let them keeptheir winnings.
Like there are several sort ofplot holes that were meant to
just kind of keep going with.
Were meant to just like embracecharlie, even though he's kind
of a dick.
We're meant to just likeembrace Charlie even though he's
kind of a dick.
We're meant to like cheer thatSusanna comes back, even though
she should never have come back.
She was right to leave in thefirst place.
There's a lot in this filmthat's like surface level.
(39:02):
It's just a feel good filmabout how proximity and love
overcome difference indisability, because that's the
way the film thinks about it.
But underneath of it there'sjust there's a lot churning.
There's a lot we can see aboutsociety at that moment in 1988
and what we valued and how wethought about people who are
(39:24):
different.
That, I think, is I.
Just I wanted to name all this.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I mean some of it like we started with.
You were saying like Tom Cruise, is this wheeler dealer slick?
And I'm like, so he's TomCruise and some of that is I'm
realizing.
Watching films and media fromthe 80s and 90s is like we're
just supposed to accept.
Like you're a good looking,charming guy, so I accept
whatever you do.
Yeah, and I mean charming guy.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
so I accept whatever you do.
Yeah, and I mean this film.
It's interesting becauseRaymond doesn't.
Charlie cannot charm Raymondinto accepting not putting the
bed by the window or eating witha fork.
He eats with toothpicks and itdoesn't matter how charming.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Charlie is.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah.
To the filmmaker's credit, thatgives us a way in to
understanding something that hadbeen so stigmatized for so long
yeah, yeah, and that is what,like by the end, in the
interview with thecourt-appointed psychologist or
psychiatrist, charlie's sayinglike I'm telling you the truth.
Do you not understand that I'mtelling you the truth?
(40:28):
Like it's a really big deal,because he doesn't usually, you
know, and we see that inthehouse, like he comes and he's
trying to like con her intoletting them watch the show, and
she's like get out, and thenRaymond starts to have you know,
to freak out, and so he's likelook, I lied to you before, I'm
sorry, this is my brother, andif he doesn't get to watch it
like and so there's that sort ofthe protagonist movement of him
(40:51):
like just being authentic,because Raymond can't take it
Like Raymond requires that Likethe $250,000 to give to Charlie.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I don't even understand how that's supposed
to be Like.
That just doesn't.
Is it 250 of the, the moneythat was left to?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
yes, that is the implication, cause the Brunner's
the trustee, so he gets, he hasdiscretion.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I got to use the funds, getting into that as well
, just like.
That's also worrisome in that,if he's got discretion of how to
use the funds, is he being afiduciary right there?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
You know, the implication of the movie is that
he just really wants Raymond tobe where he's safe and
comfortable, which is Walt Brook, and that paying court fees.
If Charlie really wants tofight, it could potentially you
know whatever.
I don't think there was any.
There didn't seem to be anyquestion, even in Charlie's mind
(41:57):
really, that a court would sidewith Charlie.
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So just that aspect of it as putting my money expert
hat on.
Fiduciary, by the way issomeone who has the
responsibility of making surethat the beneficiary's interests
are upheld ahead of anyoneelse's when it comes to special
needs trusts and things likethat.
Because the beneficiary is sovulnerable and may or may not be
(42:26):
able to make their ownfinancial decisions, trusteeship
is so important, and if youhave a single trustee which
Tracy and I have a doozy of astory about that that's a whole
podcast on its own.
But if you have a single trustee, that can be like really
worrisome.
You really need two people atleast and it's better to have a
(42:48):
corporate trustee, meaning likea bank or like a lawyer or
something, who has like zeropersonal interest in it to sign
off.
And that gets into a wholeother thing about the financial
vulnerabilities of someone whothinks that a candy bar and a
car both cost $100.
That just also, like mm, thatconcerns me too, in part just
(43:10):
because I don't think weculturally as a society spend
enough time thinking about whathappens financially when
caretakers are no longeravailable.
It's a big, worrisome problem.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, all right , so very last thing, and then
I'll wrap up, is that in someways it is mind-boggling that
Charlie didn't know he had abrother in many ways.
And also there's to a certainextent, like I kind of bought it
that in the 60s, because he wasput away in like 65, in the 60s
(43:51):
they would have sort ofshuffled away a neurodivergent
kid from this very well-to-dofamily.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's what happened with one of the Kennedy kids.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
So Rain man, 1988, barry Levinson directed.
We had Dustin Hoffman and TomCruise in the lead roles, and
this film in many ways, wasrevolutionary for 1988.
It was the first time that many, many, many Americans were
introduced to the concept ofautism, and Dustin Hoffman's
(44:26):
portrayal of Raymond affordedhuman dignity to the character,
which that's the bit that'srevolutionary that prior to this
film, the R word was the waythat we spoke about people with
neurodivergence, and they weredisposable.
They were what I just saidshuttled away, not to be seen
(44:48):
from or heard.
Not to be seen from or heard,and the ways in which it was not
revolutionary.
It continued to have thisfundamental assumption that
Raymond could get better I'mputting quotes around the word
(45:10):
better if he could only learn tobehave in a more neurotypical
manner, if he could only learnto stop repeating words over and
over, if he could only learn tomake eye contact, if he could
only give up his fixation aroundwhere the bed is or when he
watches if and when he watchesthe people's court, and whether
or not the maple syrup is on thetable before the pancakes court
(45:31):
, and whether or not the maplesyrup is on the table before the
pancakes and that even thepeople in this movie, even the
characters who care deeply aboutRaymond, see his autism as an
illness that unfortunatelycannot be fixed, and that is the
(45:54):
bit that feels very much statusquo.
It's also the case that sinceit was many Americans' first
introduction to the conditionthe fact that Raymond was also
an autistic savant, many of ussort of expected that savantism
to come along with thisparticular brand of
neurodivergence and did a sortof like do math, monkey, do math
in the direction of folks whoare on the spectrum, which is
(46:15):
very unfortunate.
I talked about Charlie as aprotagonist, because he does
change and grow and yet even hisgrown state he's kind of a jerk
.
He's not a guy that Susannashould be coming back to like
girl.
You can do better.
And we're meant to sort of partof him as protagonist, as our
(46:41):
hero is meant to kind ofunderscore this skepticism of
institutions as the right spotfor folks who are wired
differently, which I'm notsuggesting that institutions are
always the right place.
Institutions have done a lot ofharm to a lot of people, but
not for the reasons that thisfilm suggests.
(47:03):
This film suggests that, again,if he could just spend more time
with his family and learn toact like them, he would be
better, and that's the piecethat feels a little bit
dangerous.
Interestingly, I didn't namethis in the initial thing, but I
read that there was theoriginal ending was the Charlie
won custody and the brotherslive together, and that got
(47:26):
changed to what I think is morerealistic, but also like the
ending as we received it in thetheaters, where the train ride
back to Cincinnati undercuts alittle bit that skepticism,
because we saw that Charlie isill-equipped to actually care
for his brother and also therewas that skepticism.
(47:48):
So the two things are like intension with one another, which
I think is the case for society,especially in 1988.
What did I forget?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
we talked a little bit about, like the, how much
there was well-meaning behindcreating this, and like dustin
hoffman's year of research,which on the one hand is
commendable, on the other handis similar to animators.
No-transcript.
(48:25):
It's important that there waslike, because I really do feel
like there was a before andafter in terms of autism for
sure, and not just in society,like also, as I mentioned in
research funding.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Yeah, yeah, some.
Well, what are you gonna bring?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
next week.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on the truman show
all right see you then thisshow is a labor of love, but
that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourpatreon there's a link in the
(49:08):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
and, of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(49:29):
episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
And I think we are meant to really feel for Charlie
Like he's our hero, he is ourprotagonist, and also like he's
just a jerk.
Like even by the end he's justkind of a jerk, and that like
causes some I don't knowdissatisfaction in me.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:22):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
(00:42):
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't?
You know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 Barry Levinson filmRain man with my sister, emily
Guy-Burken, and with you.
Let's dive in, em.
I know you've seen this moviewe probably saw it together but
(01:03):
what's in your head about Rain?
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Man.
So we actually we were textingback and forth as you were
watching it.
You were saying, actually Ikind of feel like maybe you
should have watched this one,and I was like I don't think I'd
have the stomach to.
Because what I remember aboutthis film is it was the first
time I had any introduction toautism.
Introduction to autism, as Irecall.
(01:29):
We saw it in the theatertogether with our dad.
I had to double check with you.
I couldn't remember if it wasin the film or if our dad talked
to us about it afterwards orboth.
Prior to this, the culturallexicon was idiot savant, which
is just horrifying to me.
That way of looking at things.
I kind of have thisunderstanding of like before and
after this film, like eventhough I was so young when it
(01:53):
came out.
But before this film, peopledidn't talk about autism.
And then, after this film, itwas something we all understood,
at least in terms of how DustinHoffman portrayed it.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
We at least knew it existed.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Culturally.
What we knew was that it madepeople repeat things over and
over again.
As I mentioned before westarted recording, something
that became part of the lexiconwas the way that Dustin
Hoffman's character repeated theword definitely.
That became something thatpeople just did.
The other aspect of it was wehad this sense that, like if you
drop toothpicks, you'd be ableto know exactly how many there
(02:29):
were.
So those are the things thatstick in my mind about it.
Now, why I don't think I'd havethe stomach to revisit this is I
have a dear friend whose son ison the autism spectrum and
seeing a portrayal of what myfriend's son lives with that I'm
(02:53):
sure was well-meaning I'm sureit was a very well-meaning
portrayal in a lot of ways, Ithink would just really rub me
the wrong way, because DustinHoffman's a neurotypical actor
and there's a lot of things, alot of misconceptions and
beliefs about autism baked intothis film that are just not true
(03:20):
, about the lived experience ofpeople on the autism spectrum
that I know.
I personally would have troublewatching and not being
frustrated by so specificallythings in the film.
I remember Tom Cruise early onnot remembering that he had an
older brother saying that whenhe was scared when he was little
the Rain man would come to him,and it was later he found out
(03:42):
it was because his older brother, raymond, had been
institutionalized because of hisautism.
I remember them.
When Tom Cruise's characterrealizes that Raymond can like
do math so quickly in his head,he takes him to like either
Atlantic City or Las Vegas.
There's one scene of themcoming down an escalator in like
tuxes, and I remember there's apoint where I think it's Tom
(04:06):
Cruise's in bed is having sexwith a woman and Raymond comes
in and sits down on the bed, islike completely unaware of the
inappropriateness socially ofwhat he's doing.
He sits on the bed and watchesTV, and those are kind of the
like the snapshots of what Iremember.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout this today?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I also have a friend who has a son who's on the
spectrum, and several months agoshe and I were talking and
talking about this project andshe asked if we would ever, you
know, do this film, becausethere's a lot of things that are
great and a lot of things thatare not great about this film,
and so she just wanted.
She asked me if we would do adeep thoughts treatment of Rain
man, and so I put it on the listand so here we are.
(04:48):
So that's why this is actuallyfor Rachel.
So let me give you a quicksnapshot of the destination and
then I'll do a synopsis.
So I think we were not alone.
I mean, we were kids, but wewere not alone.
Like for much of Americansociety, this movie was an
introduction to the concept ofautism and in 1988, I think it
(05:12):
was somewhat revolutionary thatRaymond is actually treated with
full human dignity.
And also, as you predicted,there are some sort of
fundamental assumptions bakedinto this film that are
problematic, the core of itbeing that the neurotypical way
is right and good and better,and that we need to do
(05:37):
everything we can to help theneurodivergent person behave as
close to neurotypical behavioras possible, and that that is
the goal and that is the goodthing, to have that happen.
So I think that's really thecore.
There will be differentiterations of that.
That is the core of sort of theproblem, I think, with this
(05:58):
film and we can get into some ofthe specific ways that
manifests in this film.
So let me give you a synopsis.
So we first meet CharlieBabbitt.
That's Tom Cruise's character.
He is a slick wheeler dealer inLos Angeles.
He has a small.
So you said Tom Cruise'scharacter, I think we got it
(06:21):
Well.
Sometimes we play it tight.
He runs a small car dealershipwhere he's importing.
He's currently importing fourLamborghinis from Italy and they
are Stuck in Customs and EPA,and so we learned through the
course.
He has two employees Susanna,who is both employee and
girlfriend.
She's played by the Italianactress Valeria Golino.
(06:43):
And then the other employee isLenny.
He's played by Ralph Seymour.
These three people are in thiswarehouse, all three are on the
phone.
It's like chaotic and we seethrough this scene that Charlie
Babbitt Tom Cruise's character.
He does not break under stress,he knows exactly what to say.
(07:07):
He is the consummate con artist.
He's coaching Lenny on what tosay to the customers who want to
go with another dealer becausethey don't have their cars yet
and they want their downpayments back, which Charlie
doesn't have to give them.
So that's how we meet them.
They decide to take a break.
Susanna wants to go to PalmSprings.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
So they're driving to Palm Springs and in the car
they get a call One of thosebrick car phone car phones from
the factory and the fact that hehas one of those, I'm sure at
the time would have indicatedwhat a wheeler dealer he is too.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, exactly.
So he gets a call from Lenny.
Lenny's so sorry, charlie's dadhas died.
So they turn around.
They go to Cincinnati to thefuneral.
Now we see again, likeCharlie's watching from a
distance, his father's estranged, like they were not close and
he's just not affected.
His dad has left him theprize-winning rose bushes and
(08:13):
the antique car.
It's a 49 Buick Roadster, likea convertible, and the $3
million of the estate are beingleft to an anonymous benefactor
in trust.
And now we see Charlie get upset.
So through various connivingand charming, he manages to
(08:38):
discover who the anonymous, orat least where the anonymous
benefactor is and who thetrustee is.
So he goes to this place,walbrook, and we discover that
Walbrook is a home fordevelopmentally and physically
disabled adults.
So we see several residents whohave Down syndrome, we have
several residents who areotherwise developmentally
disabled, like watching TV orwhatever.
(08:59):
And we see Charlie sit downwith Dr Bruner, who is the head
of this place, and Dr Brunersays like I'm not getting any
benefit from this.
Walbrook is not getting anybenefit from this.
This is for this person, theanonymous benefactor.
And Charlie is like what isthis an ex-girlfriend of my
dad's?
(09:20):
Like what the hell, like that'smy money, I should have that
money.
He's really upset.
He doesn't get anywhere with DrBrunner.
He comes back outside andSusanna, the girlfriend and
employee, is sitting in thepassenger side seat of the
antique car and Dustin Hoffmanis sitting in the driver's seat
and he's saying like Susanna's,like this isn't your car, this
(09:41):
is my boyfriend's car.
And Hoffman's.
Raymond is like no, this is my.
I drive this car.
I drive it slow on the driveway, but only on Saturdays, never
on Wednesdays.
Today's a Wednesday, whatever.
Like that riffing that we knowfrom Dustin Hoffman.
Charlie comes out and is likewhat is happening?
Who is this guy?
Get out of the car.
But then Raymond says somethingabout the car that is accurate.
(10:01):
It used to have brown leatherseats.
These red ones aren't as good.
And Charlie's like wait, it diduse that brown leather seats.
And Raymond says what kind ofcar it is, which we have heard
Charlie say like all the fulldescription.
I don't remember, it doesn'tmatter.
Raymond says it all.
It says how many miles are onit and Charlie says whose car
(10:25):
was it?
Raymond says it was dad's car.
Who's your dad?
And he says the same name it'shis dad's name.
What was your mom's name, sayshis mom's name and she died and
it's like the exact date andlike Charlie's like what the
heck is happening.
So they go back inside and hesays to Dr Brunner, who is this
guy?
No-transcript with him to LA.
(11:11):
But like Raymond says yeah tolike everything, without fully
understanding the implications,travel montage ensues that takes
about I don't know two millionhours of movie time.
Raymond's going to fly them toLA.
I mean, excuse me, charlie'sgoing to fly them to LA.
(11:32):
Raymond has a freak out becauseit's not safe to fly.
So they drive in the Buick,they're on the highway and they
are going past a crash andRaymond like freaks out out,
gets out of the car and says,like highway travel is unsafe,
so now they have to go on likeroads, surface roads from
Cincinnati to LA.
(11:54):
Raymond has all kinds of quirksand things.
He needs things to be in acertain way to feel comfortable
and safe.
So like the bed has to be nearthe window, he he eats his food
with toothpicks.
He does all the things.
So in these two million hoursof road trip, effectively we
watch Charlie abuse Raymond, noton purpose, not with malice,
(12:16):
but he doesn't get it and hejust keeps yelling at him to
like stop being an idiot, don'tbe a retard.
She uses the r word oh my godand like, wow, he freaks out and
yells and then he does thething to accommodate, to watch
judge wapner at three like infact, at one point they knock on
(12:39):
a farmhouse door and end upwatching the people's court in
these people's living room withall these kids around.
Meanwhile the business stuff isgoing really poorly.
The cars are stuck in EPA, thecars are stuck in customs.
It's going really really poorlyand in fact now the cars have
been taken back somehow theylost the cars as well.
(13:01):
That's when we've seen him.
We've seen Raymond with thetoothpicks.
As you say, he counted theexact number of toothpicks that
fell on the floor.
And then, in the middle ofTexas, charlie's like at his
wit's end and he wants somethingto like fix I'm putting quotes
(13:21):
around that His brother.
So he takes him to a doctor andthe doctor's like this I mean
the doctor actually gives one ofthe best, by today's standards,
explanations.
His brain just worksdifferently than ours.
You know this.
It's not a thing you can fix,it's just he's just wired
differently.
But the doctor's the one whoactually points out the, is
(13:43):
curious about the savant natureand asks him to do a bunch of
like really complicatedarithmetic that he does very
quickly in his head.
The doctor confirms with acalculator, but then he says,
raymond, how much does the candybar cost?
And he says, oh, I don't knowabout a hundred dollars.
And he says, well, how muchdoes a brand new buick cost?
He said I don't know, maybe ahundred dollars.
So we see that he is a savantwith some math, but like,
(14:08):
actually like getting around,like living on his own, he
doesn't have.
He doesn't have those skillslike a light bulb goes off over
his head and he buys a deck ofcards and asks and like, throws
(14:29):
down like almost the whole deckin front of Raymond, face up and
then says what do I have leftin my hand?
And Raymond accurately namesall of the cards that are left
in his hand.
So they hightail it to LasVegas, which we saw them drive
through previously.
And, as you remember, charliebuys Raymond's.
It's a suit, not aux, but avery nice 1988 suit With the big
stripper pads.
I'm sure, yeah.
(14:50):
And Dustin Hoffman.
They're wearing kind ofmatching suits in this gray,
shiny gray material and DustinHoffman's is double-breasted and
Tom Cruise's is not.
And they sit down at ablackjack table and Raymond bets
two if it's a good, if the nextcard is good, and one if it's
bad, and they win tens ofthousands of dollars.
(15:11):
They come to the attention ofsecurity who are like watching
the video and they don't see acounter, they don't see like a
computer, they don't know how hecould possibly be doing this,
because no one could count cardsthat are six, like a six deck
set of cards they they're toldto like.
Eventually they're told toleave, like security says, get
out of the state and don't comeback, but we're not going to
(15:32):
take your winnings from you.
They make it to LA and Dr Bruner, charlie has requested like he
wants custody of his brother now, or that was the idea from the
beginning.
And so Dr Bruner has flown toLA and they're going to have a
meeting with a court appointedpsychiatrist who will make a
recommendation to the court,like the night before, and
(16:07):
offers him 250, meets charlie,thank you, and offers him 250,
000 to just let it go and letraymond go back to the
institution in cincinnati and aweek ago charlie might have
taken that deal.
But now he actually feelsconnected to his brother.
So he says forget it, I'm noteven mad about the money anymore
, I'm mad that you kept mybrother from me like I would
have liked to have known himmore than these past six days in
(16:29):
the actual meeting with thecourt-appointed psychiatrist.
It's actually kind of painful.
This is a thing that I thinkthe movie maker was trying to
like.
This is the there'sicism, Ithink, in the movie makers of
the institutional.
Because this psychiatrist saysokay, well, let's ask Raymond
what he wants.
(16:50):
Do you want to live with yourbrother, charlie, in LA?
And he says yeah.
And he says do you want to goback to Walbrook?
And he says yeah.
And then the psychiatrist likethat made his point.
But he like keeps doing it tothe point that Charlie says
enough already, doc, his point.
But he like keeps doing it tothe point that Charlie says
enough already, doc, you madeyour point, you don't need to
humiliate him.
(17:10):
And the doctors both leave andCharlie and Raymond have a
moment where Charlie says likeI'm probably not going to see
you as much anymore and I justwant you to know.
I'm really glad that you're mybrother and they have a moment.
They're sitting close andRaymond kind of leans in and
rests his forehead on Charlie'sforehead, which is the most sort
of physical touch that Raymond,raymond's very touch averse,
(17:32):
very touch averse.
The very final scene Charlieputs Raymond with Dr Brunner on
a train to go back to Cincinnati.
So in the middle there, the bitthat you named, that he
realizes that Rain man, hisimaginary friend who he mentions
in the beginning after the dadhas died, was in fact Raymond.
(17:55):
That was how he said Raymondwhen he was a child, because
Raymond was only two when he wasput away.
Charlie was only two whenRaymond was put away.
Raymond was a teenager.
No-transcript of the two ofthem from when Charlie was a
(18:34):
baby.
For these 20 years or 25 yearsI guess, there are moments like
it goes from Charlie being atotal dick to him, like not
treating Raymond as a human,calling him names and things, to
the end where, like he's likehappily accommodating the
(18:57):
specific needs because he caresabout him.
So that's the basic, like gistof the thing.
Susanna plays a small role, sheactually.
The scene you remember is thevery first night of the
kidnapping and Charlie andSusanna are having sex and
Raymond hears their like moaningand is curious and whatever.
(19:22):
He follows the noises and issort of mimicking them and ends
up in the bedroom the TV's on.
He sits down on the end of thebed and whatever.
He follows the noises and issort of mimicking them and ends
up in the bedroom the TV's on.
He sits down on the end of thebed and watches.
Charlie freaks out because ofhow inappropriate it is and like
yells at him.
Susanna says he doesn'tunderstand, he has no idea what
this means.
You need to go apologize to him.
And he goes to Raymond's roomand instead of apologizing.
He like yells at him some more.
Susanna leaves.
(19:43):
She's like you just use people,you're using him, you're using
me.
I can't take it.
She comes back in Las Vegas andso she is there for the
redemption, like Charlie'sredeemed moment.
She also has a moment withRaymond where he met like there
(20:08):
was a prostitute at the bar.
He was like Raymond wasfascinated by her necklace that
she was playing with and so shethought he was a potential John.
And she comes over and she'schatting with him and then she
realizes he's not all there andshe leaves.
But he says what time is ourdate?
And she says 10 o'clock.
So he thinks he has a date withthis woman.
And of course she doesn't showup when he goes to the bar to
(20:29):
meet her.
So Susanna like sort ofcomforts him and says were you
going to?
He and Charlie had learned todance for the date.
So Susanna dances with him inthe elevator and then gives him
a kiss and she says how was that?
And he says what?
Which she says again to thedoctor later in the interview.
(20:54):
So that's the gist.
There are other specific momentsbut we don't need to go into
them, so I'll just get it out ofthe way, because we almost
always do this.
This film does not pass theBechdel test because there are
not.
There's only one named femalecharacter in that Susanna,
that's it, that's all there is.
The dead mom has a name, but wenever see her on screen.
So I don't have anything elseto say about that, but I like
(21:15):
sort of noting it.
So, as a reminder, listeners,the Bechdel test are there at
least two named femalecharacters?
Do they talk to each other?
Do they talk to each otherabout something other than a man
or a boy?
This one doesn't even pass thefirst question.
So there's that.
I think I want to delve a littledeeper into the assumptions
(21:35):
about autism and neurodivergencein general that are sort of
baked into this film.
This film was written by a mannamed Barry Morrow, who
apparently got the idea from twothings.
One was he had a friend who was, I don't believe, on the
(21:57):
spectrum but was developmentally, intellectually, disabled.
This friend of his was slatedto go to be institutionalized,
and so Morrow actually kidnappedhim that's the word that he
used in the little research thatI did to prevent him from
needing to go back into theinstitution.
And then, apparently, thefilmmaker, the screenwriter met
(22:22):
a man called Kim Peek who was asavant, who it's unclear to me
whether he was also on thespectrum, but he was in fact a
savant.
So he had that eidetic memory,he had that super quick math
skills and when Morrow met MrPeake, that sort of mashed up
with his experience of trying tosave his friend from the
(22:45):
institution and the idea forRain man was born.
So it's not based on a truestory, though there were sort of
true vignettes that got mashedup together.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
But it was written by someone who did not have any
direct experience of autism.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
That is correct and in fact the original screenplay
didn't have the word in it andit's important to remember.
Today, in 2025, that seemsunimaginable because I think
everyone knows someone now.
But in the movie, even whenthey're in texas at the doctor's
(23:24):
office, the nurse who's likesort of the intake nurse is like
he's artistic and like even theword and charlie says I don't
know what that word means whendr bruner first says it and
that's when actually bruner sayswe used to call them idiot
savants.
So the movie does name what youremember, so like.
(23:45):
It's worth kind of rememberingthat in 1988 the, the cultural
understanding and comfort with,or at least familiarity, if not
comfort with, the spectrum wasnot there and Morrow didn't know
anyone personally.
(24:06):
Now he did.
He and Hoffman, and maybe evenLevinson and Cruise, did
research with people who were onthe spectrum.
So Dustin Hoffman spent a yearpreparing for the film.
He met Mr Peek.
He met multiple people who areon the spectrum to see how they
(24:27):
interact with others in theworld, to see their mannerisms,
so that he could deliver theperformance that he does.
But there was no oneneurodivergent on the writing
team, on the creative team.
All of the neurodivergent folkswho were involved.
If you can say that in themaking of this film were objects
(24:48):
of study, they weren't active.
Participants in the making ofthis film were objects of study.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
They weren't active participants in the creation.
I'm thinking it's kind of likehow the Pixar team went to
Australia to look at fish or howthe Disney animators went to
Hawaii Right Exactly, ratherthan interviewing and including
and having them be part of thewriter's team Right Exactly.
(25:12):
Something I mentioned before.
We started recording in 2005,.
When I was getting my master'sdegree in education, I had to
take a course on inclusion inthe classroom and one of the
things I learned in that coursewhich horrified me as late as I
think the 70s autism was thoughtto be caused by refrigerator
(25:35):
mothers that was the term thatwas in my textbook as in cold
mothers, as in mothers who werenot nurturing enough to their
children, caused their childrento be autistic.
Which boy, howdy?
Is that going to make it hardto get diagnosis, because you're
not going to want your child tobe diagnosed with that?
And then with my experiencewith my friend who has a child
(25:57):
on the spectrum she has ayounger child who is not on the
spectrum, but they have beenmuch more vigilant about testing
, testing, and so there's a lotof stuff that with this second
child, that would have been the80s and be like wow, what a
quirky kid which pings radarsnow, in part because of his
(26:19):
older brother, but also in partbecause we have a better
understanding of autism.
And so when you say there wasno neurodivergent in the
writer's room, there probablywas.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
That's fair.
That's a fair point.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
The other thing that I think I want to kind of like
dive in on a little bit with.
Like you mentioned before, westarted recording that Dustin
Hoffman won an Oscar for this.
I'm sure that, like he's anexcellent actor he really is and
he's very exacting the factthat he spent a year doing
research, this movie, I think,is well-meaning.
Hoffman brought dignity to thatcharacter, and even the Tom
(26:57):
Cruise slick-wheeler-dealerprick, who learns to recognize
that his brother, who's autistic, is actually human and loves
him and he loves his brother too, is all very well-meaning too,
is all very well-meaning.
And that immersion even thoughit's kind of like going to
(27:18):
Australia to look at the fish tolearn how to draw them I mean,
on the one hand I feel likethat's what the best you can get
in the 1980s from aneurotypical actor who takes his
craft very seriously and doeswant to bring humanity and
dignity to a character, on theother hand it's just like, oh
man, seriously.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
I mean I actually think they did as well as they
could have in 1988.
I genuinely believe that In the40 years since, the ways in
which it's done a disserviceright, I think there's many ways
.
I mean one of them is thesavant component of Raymond's
(28:02):
character is actually fairlyrare and to the extent that
Raymond has it is extremely rare.
And yet it was the firstintroduction that most of
America had to this condition.
And so there's like, as yousaid, there was this sense that
like we all neurotypicals, or atleast not autistic, holistic if
(28:27):
we're neurodivergent, thank youholistic people who you know
then expect that kind of savantbehavior and are disappointed,
like like dance, monkey dance.
You know, I think that is adisservice that was done to
folks on the spectrum by thismovie, something.
(28:48):
There's a line of films andanother pop culture or media
that we could draw of sort ofquestioning skepticism around
institutions right, like OneFlew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and
there are others where we sortof see institutions and we say
like that's not what he needs,he just needs some time with
(29:09):
family, and at one point Charlieeven says he's made more
progress with me in the pastweek than he did with you in 20
years, sort of the implicationthat the institution just was a
holding place and enabled like.
The undercurrent of this that Ithink is potentially dangerous
(29:29):
is Charlie's implication is thatby allowing Raymond to have his
rituals and the things the wayhe wanted them, that the
institution was enabling badbehavior.
That should have been correctedand that's the thing that feels
unhealthy Like.
Institutions can be bad andthey can do a disservice to
(29:50):
their participants.
100%, no question, maybe evenmost of the time.
But the reason that this film issuggesting that I take on
bridge at, because again what Isaid at the beginning, the
fundamental assumption is thatRaymond will be better I'm
(30:11):
putting quotes around that wordif he could learn to behave more
like a neurotypical, if hecould learn to make eye contact,
if he could learn to stoprepeating who's on first all the
time, if he could learn to likeaccept hugs when they're
offered.
And that's not better.
That just makes neurotypicalpeople more comfortable.
(30:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Well, and we even so, when I was teaching, there were
a few kids who would comethrough who, because of their
IEP, would have like specialdispensation to like maybe have
a cell phone because one oftheir, one of their stims was to
check the time or somethinglike that.
And I would have colleagues whowould be like you know well,
(30:55):
they should do what everyoneelse does and the thing is like
to have this be part of theiriep.
And if you're not familiar,that's a individual education
program.
I think plan, individualeducation plan for students with
special needs, specialeducation program, that sort of
thing, that sense that thischild needs to conform, because
(31:19):
that's what everybody does whenhaving like getting to the point
where they're, they are in highschool, because that's what I
was teaching and this is ontheir IEP.
This is a need.
Speaker 1 (31:31):
Well, we wouldn't say that about a kid who had a
hearing deficiency if theyneeded an desk, but because of
how she got around she needed toleave early.
She was not like fightingthrough the halls with everyone
else.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
No one had an issue with that.
Some of it has to do with whatappears to be invisible, and I
(32:05):
don't like autism.
This is another aspect of whatyou're talking about.
It's not a disability, it's adifferent way of brain wiring.
There is a place for that kindof brain wiring in our society,
as long as we are open to it.
Now there are some people onthe autism spectrum who, for
whatever reason, are going tostruggle in our society and will
(32:27):
need more structure, will notbe able to live independently,
will need to live in, will notbe able to live independently,
will need to live in aninstitution for whatever reason.
But again, that doesn't makethem disabled or wrong and it
just makes them brainwireddifferently.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
This film.
Actually, I think in some waysit portrayed Raymond as like the
audience has no question Idon't think that Raymond can't
live independently.
Like near the climax of thefilm he tries, he's like in
Charlie's home and he's liketrying to make himself a snack
and he turns on the toaster ovenand he can't get the door open
(33:04):
because he's doing it wrong,whatever, and he gets distracted
and he goes into something elseand then there's smoke and it
sets off the smoke detector andhe has a major freak out as a
result.
I mean, anybody would.
But then because of his autism,the way that he freaks out is
big and loud and self-harming.
It's a tense moment.
Charlie wakes up and has toturn off the toaster oven and
(33:28):
take down the smoke detector andthen try and calm Raymond who
is touch averse.
So the ways that he goes to tryand calm him are not calming.
I think the audience is leftwith the sense that Raymond
can't live on his own and alsothat he has value.
The value piece is like a pushme, pull me, because Charlie
(33:51):
doesn't start to really warm upto Raymond until they win enough
to get him out of the hole,like just enough, like he needs
$80,000 for the cars to returnthe down payments and $3,500 to
reclaim his pawned Rolex, andthey win $86,000.
(34:13):
And that's when he reallystarts to like seems to
genuinely warm up to him.
And so, yes, this film, dustinHoffman's portrayal, gives
Raymond human dignity and value.
And, yes, our hero so-calleddoesn't actually warm up and
(34:34):
doesn't actually start to seehis brother as something more
than either a meal ticket or aburden, until he helps him make
$86,000, which is the preciseamount that he needs.
So it's like if Raymond's hyperfixation had been like train
schedules right, or if he hadbeen one of the most of the
(34:57):
people on the spectrum who don'thave the savant piece of
raymond's diagnosis like andcounting card was just not a
thing.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this film is like it'scomplicated and now, taken in
context, like in some ways itdid amazing things for the
community of those on thespectrum and those who love them
(35:17):
, because a lot of money wentinto research after this, after
1988 I don't think that's acoincidence right, and like a
lot of Americans were introducedto this condition, introduced
to this condition by a belovedactor who gave the man dignity
(36:09):
no-transcript of what allowedthat grifter to get a toehold
right right, yeah, the fear, yes, agreed, agreed.
I'm running out of time but Ireally want to quickly sort of
also name, like on deep thoughts.
We define the protagonist asthe person who grows and changes
(36:29):
through the course of the storyand by that definition Charlie
is most definitely theprotagonist.
He definitely grows and changes.
He sees that he was a prick.
He names himself as a prick.
We hear the story of why hebecame estranged from his father
.
That amazing car he was neverallowed to touch it.
When he was 16, he brought homean almost straight A's report
(36:51):
card and he said hey, dad, can Ideck out the car?
And dad said no, so he took itanyway and dad called the cops
on a stolen car and he and hisfriends all got stopped and
pulled over and put in jail andhis dad left.
The other guys the other guyshe was with got bailed out in a
matter of hours and his dad lefthim there for two days and he
never came out.
So that's the story that hetells of, like why they were
(37:12):
estranged.
But then his dad has tried toreach out to him many times to
like at least talk, and he hasnot called him back.
So he says I was a prick, bythe end he definitely grows.
He grows to see Raymond as ahuman being.
He realizes that Raymond washis imaginary friend, rain man,
who used to come and sing to himwhen he was sad and scared, and
(37:35):
he feels a certain amount ofresponsibility for Raymond's
institutionalization becausethey put him away to protect
Charlie.
I think that's worth noting andI think we are meant to really
feel for Charlie.
He's our hero, he is ourprotagonist and also, like he's
(37:55):
just a jerk.
Like even by the end he's justkind of a jerk and that like
causes some I don't knowdissatisfaction in me.
There's also, like a number ofmoments of like I don't know
plot holes.
Plot holes like burner shouldhave called the cops and he says
(38:17):
he didn't.
Like charlie calls him and hesays he didn't, because raymond
has always been a voluntarypatient, but then they make the
point over the two million hoursof road trip that he's he
actually needs structure andcare, he needs people who know
how to care for him.
The las vegas casino guys likeknow that they were counting
(38:38):
cards and like let them keeptheir winnings.
Like there are several sort ofplot holes that were meant to
just kind of keep going with.
Were meant to just like embracecharlie, even though he's kind
of a dick.
We're meant to just likeembrace Charlie even though he's
kind of a dick.
We're meant to like cheer thatSusanna comes back, even though
she should never have come back.
She was right to leave in thefirst place.
There's a lot in this filmthat's like surface level.
(39:02):
It's just a feel good filmabout how proximity and love
overcome difference indisability, because that's the
way the film thinks about it.
But underneath of it there'sjust there's a lot churning.
There's a lot we can see aboutsociety at that moment in 1988
and what we valued and how wethought about people who are
(39:24):
different.
That, I think, is I.
Just I wanted to name all this.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
I mean some of it like we started with.
You were saying like Tom Cruise, is this wheeler dealer slick?
And I'm like, so he's TomCruise and some of that is I'm
realizing.
Watching films and media fromthe 80s and 90s is like we're
just supposed to accept.
Like you're a good looking,charming guy, so I accept
whatever you do.
Yeah, and I mean charming guy.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
so I accept whatever you do.
Yeah, and I mean this film.
It's interesting becauseRaymond doesn't.
Charlie cannot charm Raymondinto accepting not putting the
bed by the window or eating witha fork.
He eats with toothpicks and itdoesn't matter how charming.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
Charlie is.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah.
To the filmmaker's credit, thatgives us a way in to
understanding something that hadbeen so stigmatized for so long
yeah, yeah, and that is what,like by the end, in the
interview with thecourt-appointed psychologist or
psychiatrist, charlie's sayinglike I'm telling you the truth.
Do you not understand that I'mtelling you the truth?
(40:28):
Like it's a really big deal,because he doesn't usually, you
know, and we see that inthehouse, like he comes and he's
trying to like con her intoletting them watch the show, and
she's like get out, and thenRaymond starts to have you know,
to freak out, and so he's likelook, I lied to you before, I'm
sorry, this is my brother, andif he doesn't get to watch it
like and so there's that sort ofthe protagonist movement of him
(40:51):
like just being authentic,because Raymond can't take it
Like Raymond requires that Likethe $250,000 to give to Charlie.
Speaker 2 (41:04):
I don't even understand how that's supposed
to be Like.
That just doesn't.
Is it 250 of the, the moneythat was left to?
Oh?
Speaker 1 (41:14):
yes, that is the implication, cause the Brunner's
the trustee, so he gets, he hasdiscretion.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
I got to use the funds, getting into that as well
, just like.
That's also worrisome in that,if he's got discretion of how to
use the funds, is he being afiduciary right there?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
You know, the implication of the movie is that
he just really wants Raymond tobe where he's safe and
comfortable, which is Walt Brook, and that paying court fees.
If Charlie really wants tofight, it could potentially you
know whatever.
I don't think there was any.
There didn't seem to be anyquestion, even in Charlie's mind
(41:57):
really, that a court would sidewith Charlie.
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
So just that aspect of it as putting my money expert
hat on.
Fiduciary, by the way issomeone who has the
responsibility of making surethat the beneficiary's interests
are upheld ahead of anyoneelse's when it comes to special
needs trusts and things likethat.
Because the beneficiary is sovulnerable and may or may not be
(42:26):
able to make their ownfinancial decisions, trusteeship
is so important, and if youhave a single trustee which
Tracy and I have a doozy of astory about that that's a whole
podcast on its own.
But if you have a single trustee, that can be like really
worrisome.
You really need two people atleast and it's better to have a
(42:48):
corporate trustee, meaning likea bank or like a lawyer or
something, who has like zeropersonal interest in it to sign
off.
And that gets into a wholeother thing about the financial
vulnerabilities of someone whothinks that a candy bar and a
car both cost $100.
That just also, like mm, thatconcerns me too, in part just
(43:10):
because I don't think weculturally as a society spend
enough time thinking about whathappens financially when
caretakers are no longeravailable.
It's a big, worrisome problem.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, yeah, all right , so very last thing, and then
I'll wrap up, is that in someways it is mind-boggling that
Charlie didn't know he had abrother in many ways.
And also there's to a certainextent, like I kind of bought it
that in the 60s, because he wasput away in like 65, in the 60s
(43:51):
they would have sort ofshuffled away a neurodivergent
kid from this very well-to-dofamily.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
That's what happened with one of the Kennedy kids.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
So Rain man, 1988, barry Levinson directed.
We had Dustin Hoffman and TomCruise in the lead roles, and
this film in many ways, wasrevolutionary for 1988.
It was the first time that many, many, many Americans were
introduced to the concept ofautism, and Dustin Hoffman's
(44:26):
portrayal of Raymond affordedhuman dignity to the character,
which that's the bit that'srevolutionary that prior to this
film, the R word was the waythat we spoke about people with
neurodivergence, and they weredisposable.
They were what I just saidshuttled away, not to be seen
(44:48):
from or heard.
Not to be seen from or heard,and the ways in which it was not
revolutionary.
It continued to have thisfundamental assumption that
Raymond could get better I'mputting quotes around the word
(45:10):
better if he could only learn tobehave in a more neurotypical
manner, if he could only learnto stop repeating words over and
over, if he could only learn tomake eye contact, if he could
only give up his fixation aroundwhere the bed is or when he
watches if and when he watchesthe people's court, and whether
or not the maple syrup is on thetable before the pancakes court
(45:31):
, and whether or not the maplesyrup is on the table before the
pancakes and that even thepeople in this movie, even the
characters who care deeply aboutRaymond, see his autism as an
illness that unfortunatelycannot be fixed, and that is the
(45:54):
bit that feels very much statusquo.
It's also the case that sinceit was many Americans' first
introduction to the conditionthe fact that Raymond was also
an autistic savant, many of ussort of expected that savantism
to come along with thisparticular brand of
neurodivergence and did a sortof like do math, monkey, do math
in the direction of folks whoare on the spectrum, which is
(46:15):
very unfortunate.
I talked about Charlie as aprotagonist, because he does
change and grow and yet even hisgrown state he's kind of a jerk
.
He's not a guy that Susannashould be coming back to like
girl.
You can do better.
And we're meant to sort of partof him as protagonist, as our
(46:41):
hero is meant to kind ofunderscore this skepticism of
institutions as the right spotfor folks who are wired
differently, which I'm notsuggesting that institutions are
always the right place.
Institutions have done a lot ofharm to a lot of people, but
not for the reasons that thisfilm suggests.
(47:03):
This film suggests that, again,if he could just spend more time
with his family and learn toact like them, he would be
better, and that's the piecethat feels a little bit
dangerous.
Interestingly, I didn't namethis in the initial thing, but I
read that there was theoriginal ending was the Charlie
won custody and the brotherslive together, and that got
(47:26):
changed to what I think is morerealistic, but also like the
ending as we received it in thetheaters, where the train ride
back to Cincinnati undercuts alittle bit that skepticism,
because we saw that Charlie isill-equipped to actually care
for his brother and also therewas that skepticism.
(47:48):
So the two things are like intension with one another, which
I think is the case for society,especially in 1988.
What did I forget?
Speaker 2 (47:57):
we talked a little bit about, like the, how much
there was well-meaning behindcreating this, and like dustin
hoffman's year of research,which on the one hand is
commendable, on the other handis similar to animators.
No-transcript.
(48:25):
It's important that there waslike, because I really do feel
like there was a before andafter in terms of autism for
sure, and not just in society,like also, as I mentioned in
research funding.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
Yeah, yeah, some.
Well, what are you gonna bring?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
next week.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
I'm bringing you my deep thoughts on the truman show
all right see you then thisshow is a labor of love, but
that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourpatreon there's a link in the
(49:08):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
and, of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(49:29):
episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.