Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
Okay, Joan Wilder, write us out of this one.
On this week's episode, Tracie revisits the 1984 film Romancing the Stone. Both Guy girls loved this film in their childhood, enjoying both the romance and comedy of seeing Kathleen Turner's Joan Wilder go from hapless writer to confident and capable badass. Baby Emily, as a budding writer, especially loved how the storytelling made it clear working as a novelist translated to practical life skills.
While the film is just as fun and easy to enjoy as it was 40 years ago, the feminism written into the fiction is only for white women. Joan Wilder is a dynamic, proactive, and delightful character, but Colombia is nothing more than a stereotypical backdrop for her story. Every character in Colombia--other than the white love interest played by Michael Douglas and the bumbling white villain played by Danny DeVito--are either menacing, drug dealers, or background villagers. And Joan doesn't actually need her love interest to save herself and her sister by the end.
Still, there's a lot to love in this film, as long as you remember that Colombia is a real place full of real people, and not just the flattened set piece full of cardboard cutouts used in this film.
Throw on your headphones, keep an eye out for Devil's Fork, and listen in!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://www.splicetoday.com/moving-pictures/the-romance-of-imperialism
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
there's all of these plot holes that you just don't
care about, like I watched itand I was like I noted it but
like without even thinking aboutit, I just hit the believe
button and those plot holes arelike so forgivable for whatever
reason.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:44):
just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture.
(01:07):
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
Thoughts about stupid shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1984 romantic comedyRomancing the Stone with my
sister, emily Guy-Burken, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
So, em, I know you've seen this.
I think we probably saw ittogether, possibly multiple
times but tell me what's in yourhead about Romancing the Stone.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I remember loving it.
I have wanted to be a writerfrom tiny childhood, so one of
the things that I rememberreally loving about this was the
fact that Joan Wilder, theKathleen Turner character, is a
novelist, and the fact that sheis a novelist is important to
her character and being able toget out of sticky situations
(01:51):
multiple times, and so that wassomething that I really, really
liked.
Specifically, there's a pointwhere the Michael Douglas
character, whose name I will notever remember actually says to
her all right, joan Wilder, howare you going to write us out of
this one when they're beingheld at gunpoint and it's the
menacing Colombian drug lord orsomething?
He's like Joan Wilder, the JoanWilder, I love you.
(02:15):
I love all your books, I havethem all and he has all of her
Bodice Ripper books and treatsthem with such kindness because
he loves the books that shewrites, which.
That scene lives rent free inmy head, because it's like that
is the writer's dream, notspecifically that moment, but
(02:37):
the fact that you know you neverknow how what you put down on
the page is going to affectsomeone else.
You never know how your storiesare going to reach other people
.
So I really, really loved thataspect of it.
I loved the romance because Iwas a little romantic at heart
as a child and the mix of likekind of romantic comedy and then
(03:02):
action adventure is my jam andthen like the fact that it's
romance, romance, comedy, actionadventure with a treasure map,
like totally my jam.
So those are the things that Iremember.
There were a couple of things.
There's one scene that Iremember making me a little
uncomfortable as a kid, which iswhere there's some sort of
(03:23):
mudslide and Michael Douglasends up sliding down into where
his face ends up in her crotch.
I remember that making me alittle uncomfortable.
I remember Danny DeVito beingkind of a charming bumbling
(03:49):
villain in after, and so MichaelDouglas makes sure she's safe
first she and her sister, whoshe's there to get and then goes
after the crocodile and youthink he might be dead, and then
at the very end he comes backand he's got crocodile skin
boots.
Those are the things in my head.
(04:09):
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
I think we have a specificreason, different from usual.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, you remember a lot.
Yeah, so we have a listener,amy, who we met at Fan Expo
Chicago, who reached out to usand asked if we would do this
movie, and actually it was onethat I loved as well, that we
both really liked, and so it wasan easy yes.
So this one's for you, Amy, soyeah, so that's why now.
(04:41):
But I also loved this film.
I definitely had a big crush onMichael Douglas' character when
I was, you know, in 84, 85, 86,when we were watching it on
repeat, like damn yeah, yeah,big crush on him, damn yeah.
So there was definitely someformative, like sense of romance
from this film.
But that's why now.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the Destination
(05:01):
before I try to do a synopsis.
So, actually, amy mentionedthat the representation of
Colombia was important to her asa young person and like.
So that actually was somethingthat made me pay closer
attention based on her commentand the representation of that
country and the region, like inthis film made for North
Americans, white Americanspredominantly, and I also.
(05:36):
I want to talk about the romance, since I did have such a crush
on Michael Douglas's character,which his name was Jack T Colton
, by the way, and he tells us atone point that the T stands for
trustworthy.
He doesn't.
I want to talk a bit about theromance that we're given in
these two people.
Like I read one commentator whosaid that she didn't think that
they had any chemistry.
I completely disagree.
Like I would have believed thatMichael Douglas and Kathleen
(05:58):
Turner had an affair from thisfilm.
Like there was so muchchemistry from what I saw.
Like I really believe thechemistry so I think that was
part of it.
(06:29):
But, there's also, like you know, like he's not trustworthy and
there's some stuff that, likeyou never know until the very
end I'm still not sure, you knowlike she says to at be
trustworthy, but she is havingfun, yeah, yeah, I wanted to
talk about that.
I want to talk about sort ofyou know, race and imperialism
and feminism and storytelling.
Like we talk about theprotagonist, like who is the
protagonist, and so we'll talkabout that a little bit.
The reason that you glommedonto it as a kid, like this is a
writer wrote this about awriter, sort of what is the meta
(06:49):
commentary there from thescreenwriter?
So I want to talk about all ofthose things.
So that's where we'll get to,but let me start by trying to
give a synopsis.
I'll do my best.
It is an action-packedadventure, so I'm not going to
get all the details.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And they're not going to be in order, but I'll do my
best.
It's like a 90 minute film,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
it's a pretty tidy, it's like an hour, and 40, 45
minutes, I think, okay runningtime still, so a little longer,
but pretty tidy.
Tidy film for action-packed.
It is action-packed though.
So the movie starts actuallywith a story within a story.
It's kathleen turner voiceoverof the end of a like American
Western historical fiction where, from the point of view of the
heroine, she defeats Grogan,who's the man who killed her
(07:38):
father, raped and murdered hersister, like, killed her dog and
stole her Bible, like it'sridiculous, like.
And then we see her, her loveinterest, jesse, who we only see
in silhouette with like a haton or whatever, and they like
reunite.
And then we cut to KathleenTurner and she's like in this,
(08:00):
like plaid nightgown at hertypewriter, she's crying and
she's like we see her typing thelast few words of what we just
saw, the voiceover, and then theend, and through actually very
tidy cinematography, to use yourword, we learn that Joan Wilder
is not great at adulting.
(08:21):
So she's crying because she'sjust made herself cry by writing
the ending of this novel.
And there are no tissues in thebox and there's no toilet paper
on the roll and there's nopaper towels, and she gets and
there's like post-its up allover, like all over her house,
and she looks in the mirror,like just outside the kitchen,
after she realizes there are nopaper towels and there's like a
(08:41):
post-it that says buy tissues.
So she blows her nose on thatpost-it.
So um, at some point we shouldtalk about the correlation
between writers and people withadhd, but not right now so we
meet her cat romeo, and like wesee her drink out of, she has
(09:04):
like a cabinet full of thosemini alcohol bottles Like they
sell in, like they come in likehotel mini bars, and we see her
drink a bottle of alcohol.
And anyway, the next day she'srunning late.
She has to take the manuscriptto her publisher.
The lady neighbor a neighborwho is called by her fault like
(09:26):
Mrs Something or other, and Ican't remember what it is right
now Hands her an envelope like abig manila envelope that has
all you see, is this floweryhandwriting that says Eduardo as
like the return address.
So she's at this bar with herpublisher and best friend,
gloria, and Gloria's trying tosay, well, what about that one?
What about that one About allthese men at this like bar
(09:48):
restaurant?
And she's just not interestedin any of them because she's
holding out for Jesse, thisfictional character that that
populates her novels Columbia.
(10:10):
Elaine's husband is dead andthey don't know why and they
didn't find the rest of him.
That's what we hear and wedon't know what happened to him.
And Joan says she's going to befine.
She always is, which is like aweird thing to say about, like
immediately, but anyway.
So we get back to her apartmentafter this bar thing and it has
been rifled through and we didactually we saw a very menacing
(10:32):
looking, mustachioed man, kindof watch her leave and then go
into the apartment and I thinkhe, he, he kills somebody who's
like what are you doing?
That's miss wilder's apartment.
So he's rifled through herwhole apartment and as she's
like looking around and kind offreaking out a little bit, the
cat's's okay, by the way.
The phone rings and it's Elaineand we see her.
(10:55):
She has Danny DeVito and thisother dude, this tall, bald dude
, who the character's name isIra and I do not remember the
actor's name.
Danny DeVito's character's nameis Ralph.
So they have Elaine.
Elaine's on the phone and shesays did Eduardo send you
anything?
And she says yep, yep here.
This is not I'm paraphrasing.
She has the envelope.
Elaine says you have to bringit to Columbia and initially
(11:19):
it's like I can't, and thenElaine says they're going to
hurt me, they're going to cut me.
We see the guys show Elaine aknife.
So Joan goes to Columbia tosave her sister.
Gloria tries to talk her out ofit, but she has to go save her
sister, so she's ticked.
Is joan, kind of agoraphobic orI don't know that I would use
that word, but she's very much ashrinking violet, she's very
(11:42):
much a home body.
So we see her on the street innew york city like with like
people like you know who sellstuff on the street, like trying
to sell her things like stupidstuff, umbrellas type thing,
like a stuffed monkey Okay, likereally useless stuff and like
she's very intimidated by thesepeople who like buskers on the
(12:03):
street or that's not the rightword, but you know what I mean
like these street vendors,merchants, and we see her sort
of like clutching her, she'sholding the manuscript in a box
and sort of making herselfsmaller as she moves through
these people who are trying tosell her stuff.
And it's clear from the housethat like she's there a lot and
(12:23):
what she said about all the menin the bar, like she just
doesn't want to go out.
So I did not get the impressionthat she is agoraphobic, as in
a phobia of outdoors, but I didget the impression that she's
very much a homebody and ashrinking violet and just not
comfortable as opposed to anactual phobia.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, so we skip the plane ride.
She's in Columbia.
She gets to Columbia and it'svery, very like I don't know
where the airport is in Colombia.
I didn't look that up but likein this movie, it's just like
this bare field with buses.
You know, she has to get toCartagena in order to turn over
the map.
The envelope was a map that shehas to turn over.
(13:03):
That's the ransom for hersister.
And she doesn't know where togo and nobody speaks English.
And she asks somebody it's thesame mustachio and she doesn't
know where to go and nobodyspeaks English.
And she asks somebody it's thesame mustachioed man who killed
a neighbor of hers and rifledthrough her house.
He says, oh, this is the busand we watch them change the
signs so we know he's lying toher.
This is the bus to Cartagena.
She says, oh, thank you so much.
So she gets on the bus and it'sgoing to like literally the
(13:26):
middle of nowhere.
Eventually she realizes thiscan't be right and tries to talk
to the bus driver who, whiletrying to talk to this woman who
has no Spanish, like he, hitsthis Jeep that's in the middle
of the road.
All the other passengers, likegrumbling in Spanish, get off
and they like pick up their likeparrots and cockatiels and
cages on this truck that's beenhit and they're like picking
(13:48):
them up and taking them away andthey're walking with all their
luggage.
The same mustachioed guy saysto her you don't need to walk,
another bus will be along.
And then he pulls a gun on herand enter from a high hill like
a stranger in a hat who fromsilhouette, looks a lot like
Jesse, the romantic lead fromthe western that we saw at the
(14:11):
very beginning does michaeldouglas play jesse in the?
I don't know you only see him insilhouette.
Yeah, yeah, it's possible, Idon't know.
And he sort of fights off themustachioed man and like scares
him off.
Turns out it was his truck,they were his birds, that was.
That's how he makes a living,is that?
He exports these exotic birds?
And she convinces him to takeher to Cartagena for $375 in
(14:36):
American traveler's checks andso they start walking.
It's raining like crazy andlike all of these adventures
ensue the mudslide that youremember that ends up with him
with his face in her crotch andthen at a certain point, like he
tosses her suitcase she's likedragging this big, like 1980s
(14:57):
suitcase and he like tosses itoff a cliff and she has her
shoes off for some reason andthey're high heels.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
That was before we put wheels on suitcases, wasn't
it?
Yeah, we got to the moon beforewe put wheels on suitcases,
wasn't it?
Yeah, we got to the moon beforewe put wheels on suitcases.
Yeah, something weird aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
So there's a great line she has these high heels
and he takes a machete and likejust hacks the heels off of them
and she says those were Italian.
And he goes now they'repractical.
It's a really great line.
And there's this like constantkind of back and forth.
They don't like each other,right, she doesn't trust him,
(15:36):
she doesn't have a choice and hekeeps saying things like would
you wake up today and think I'mgoing to ruin a man's life?
They do not like each otherAlready, though we start to see
actually like starting to bemore active.
So at a certain point, likehe's tired from like hacking
with the machete and he likeputs it into a tree and just is
(15:57):
like taking a rest.
And she's like aren't we gonnakeep moving?
And he says be my guest.
So she does, she takes themachete and she starts hacking
and they end up they find thisdowned plane which was drug
runners, which so it's full ofmarijuana in these like cubes.
They start a marijuana bonfireand he's surprised that she
knows what it is.
She says I went to college, sothey're sitting around this fire
(16:18):
and they're talking and hekills a ginormous snake so big.
That's like really scary.
And that's when he says hismiddle name is trustworthy.
So shenanigans ensue.
Okay, they end up in this townthat you remember, where they're
told like there's only one carin the whole town.
The bell maker has it.
(16:40):
And they go over to that houseand they knock on the door and
exactly exactly the way youremember it verbatim, like the
guy at the door is holding a gunon them, and then the gang of
the villagers all have gunstrained on them and he says,
write us out of this one, joanWilder.
And the guy inside the house,the Joan Wilder.
And it turns out he reads hernovels to the whole village,
(17:01):
like instead of a telenovela,every Saturday.
And they're all like hi, likethey're so delighted.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I mean, that is the dream.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So the sadistic mustachioed guy shows up and we
learn his name from Ralph andIra Danny DeVito.
And the other guy.
He has a military likecredentials, but he's like just
running.
He's just kind of rogue likerunning his own thing.
So he and his people show upand the guy Juan I think is his
(17:37):
name who reads her books to thevillagers, helps them escape in
this like delightfully manicsort of like dangerous kind of
way and he gets them out of thevillage and away from the bad
guys, at least for now.
They end up seeing this treethat's like shaped like a
(17:58):
trident, which is on the map.
It's called the devil's fork inspanish on the map and they
both recognize it, though theydon't say it to one another.
They end up in a town and Jackbuys them new clothes and they
go dancing and on the dancefloor it's this beautiful scene
where they're dancing, he'steaching her to dance and then
(18:21):
they start kissing and theneverybody around them is moving
in like double time and they'restanding there like making out.
Danny DeVito, meanwhile, isthere in this like farcical.
He's on the phone with Irasaying he lost her and like how
is supposed to find her?
She's got this partner.
And now the other bad guy, zolo, is here.
And then he's like looks up andthey're walking toward him and
(18:44):
he's like she's here, she's here, so he's trying to get her bag
the whole time, like sneakingunder tables and getting beat up
by Colombian women whose tablehe's under Like it's just
ridiculous.
So they end up in bed together.
We cut to them like sort of Iguess it's supposed to be
post-coitus, but they're bothnaked, like lying on top of one,
(19:05):
like he's laying on top of her,and they're talking and she
says, I guess maybe I should.
He had been trying to convinceher to go get the treasure,
whatever it is, and they'd havemore leverage, not just the map
but actually the treasure.
And she's like, yeah, maybethat's a good idea.
And then we see him sort ofpull the map out from under the
mattress and stick it back inher bag.
So they follow the map.
(19:28):
They actually like steal a car,which happens to be Danny
Vito's car, that he happens tobe sleeping in the back of, and
they find the place where thething is buried and they're like
digging through this, likemuddy water, just inside a cave,
and that's I'm pretty surethat's when she says you're the
most fun I've ever had.
And they find it.
And she says it're the most funI've ever had.
(19:49):
And they find it.
And she says it's a pricelessstatue.
And they turn it over and it'sthis weird, like Easter bunny
statue, like from the 60s.
And here's another moment whereher being a writer actually
advances the plot.
She says oh, in my first bookthe real treasure was inside the
statue.
So they break the Easter bunnyand this heart-shaped, faceted
(20:11):
green gem falls out.
And then Danny DeVito shows upand takes it from them.
And then Zolo's people show upand there's a chase and the car
ends up in a river and she'slike still searing.
He's like what are you doing?
And they go down the falls,they both jump out and they end
(20:31):
up on opposite sides of thisgiant river.
They yell across to one another.
She says like she doesn't trusthim.
She's like you're never, I'mnever gonna see you again and I
need that to save my sister.
And he says you still have themap.
They don't know.
We have the stone.
So he says he's gonna meet herat the hotel where she's
supposed to do the handoff.
So she goes and we see her talkto Ira and they make the plan
(20:54):
for where the handoff willhappen for the map.
And she calls the front deskhas Jack T Colton checked in?
And the guy on the other linesays not in the past two minutes
, meet the kidnappers.
(21:18):
She hands over the map and Irais delighted.
He's so excited.
And then Jack shows up and hesays I missed you at the hotel.
We all did.
And then he gets pushed intothe full view and Zolo's people
are behind him with guns andstuff.
Zolo burns the map.
He says this is useless.
They already have the gem.
Where is it?
She says I don't have it.
And then they say well, jackmust.
And so somebody like puts arifle butt into his crotch.
(21:39):
But it makes a funny sound andhe does this weird little hip
jiggle and the stone falls downhis pant leg and lands on his
boot.
Oh yeah, I remember that, yeah.
And he says you can choke on it.
He like kicks it up into theair.
Zolo reaches out and catches itand says thank you.
And then he gets Captain Hookedand the crocodile bites his hand
(22:01):
off with the stone in it andthen a whole bunch of fighting
ensue and Joan is a badass,she's a total badass.
So she like stabs the bad guy,she hits his you know amputated
stump with a like a wooden board, and then she pushes him into
this like lamp and so he's onfire and his hand shuts off.
(22:27):
And then like he ends upfalling down into this pit of
crocodiles.
So he's gone down into this pitof crocodiles.
So he's gone, so in the interim, like she'd been calling for
Jack to come help.
He actually like scales a wall.
He had chased after thecrocodile that first bit off his
hand and he's like scales thiswall to come save her.
By the time he gets up thereshe's already taken care of
(22:48):
everything.
So Elaine has fainted at thispoint.
So he says so, elaine hasfainted at this point.
So he says I'll come find you,or something like that.
And he like dives off this hugerampart like into
crocodile-infested water.
And so we like skip a wholebunch of shit, we just fast
forward.
And she is now she's inGloria's office and she just
(23:10):
looks much calmer and morepracticed.
And Gloria is crying and shesays, oh, my god, that ending.
When he like jumps off theramparts and then meets her at
the airport, oh, and it's yourbest book yet, and then she's
walking back on the New Yorkstreet.
Now we see all those samemerchants, like trying, and
she's like, no thanks, no thanks.
(23:31):
She's like not bothered by them.
Now and there's this giantsailboat which had had been a
running thing.
This was his dream.
Jack's dream was to get asailboat.
He was trying to make enoughmoney that he could get a
sailboat.
This giant sailboat is like,parked on whatever you carry a
sailboat with on the street inthe middle of New York City.
She looks up and it's him andhe's wearing, as you remember,
(23:53):
crocodile skin boots and sheputs down her grocery bag, pulls
out the flowers and climbs upand then they sail.
I'm putting quotes around thatoff into the sunset on a New
York City street, and that's theend of the movie, some through
lines that I want to name, thatI that feel important for some
of the things before Before youdo that, I just want to say do
you know the two best days of aboat owner's life Day they buy
(24:16):
the boat and the day they sellthe boat?
I mean I don't know, but anyway,please go ahead.
So the boat thing was importantthroughout and initially he was
saying he was going to be byhimself.
And then when they were nakedin the bed, he like shows her
the picture.
He's like maybe we could gotogether.
So that was a thing, that was athing, that was a through line.
(24:40):
There's also felt important as Iwas watching in the very first
scene that story within thestory, with Grogan.
Grogan says you can die fast,like I don't remember what the
simile was, or you can die slow,like molasses in January, and
she's like it's May, and he goesI don't care if it's the 4th of
July, anyway, but that you candie fast or you can die slow.
And then the heroine in thatshow, like in that book that she
was writing, pulled a knifefrom her garter belt and tossed
(25:03):
it at the guy and that's how hedied.
When she's facing Zolo afterhis hand has been bitten off, he
says to her do you want to diefast or die slow?
Different similesiles, but fastor slow.
And she, like you see herwheels turning because she like
has a knife and she throws it athim, but he catches it on a
(25:25):
piece of wood he's carrying, andnow he's got a knife.
So there's like thisinteresting moment where we see
this like mirroring and it endsvery different.
It ends differently thatspecific scene, though.
Joan still ends up killing thebad guy.
So I just wanted to make surethat I named that piece because
I felt like that was reallyinteresting writing.
(25:47):
So I will start with the Bechdeltest, because I think that's
it's fairly straightforward.
So the Bechdel test from AlisonBechdel, who does want to be
known for this, but it's souseful are there at least two
named female characters?
Do they talk to one another,and do they talk to one another
about something other than a boyor a man?
This does pass, because Joantalks to Gloria about the book.
(26:07):
She also talks about men, butshe does talk about the book and
she talks about Elaine too.
Yeah, and she talks about hercat with Gloria and going to
Columbia, yeah, so they talkabout various things.
She also talks to Elaine aboutvarious things, not just a man,
yeah, yeah, so it does passBechdel, but that's it, and I
(26:29):
think it's worth noting and thiscan maybe segue me into some of
the other things that I want totalk about.
There are no women.
We see very few women inColombia at all.
We see the woman who beats upDanny DeVito because he's under
her table in a restaurant.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
So meaning we see very few Colombian women.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We see very few women at all.
Oh, okay, like we see Joan,that's pretty much it.
But while she's in columbia,yeah, there are very few
colombian women.
There are a few like extras,like on the bus, or the woman
who beats up dan duvido, orthere's like an abuela, like a
grandma who's sitting, likeshe's in the town where the drug
(27:08):
dealer reads her books.
We like, as part of theevidence of Zolo's sadism, I
think there's an old ladysitting there using two dried
corn to get the kernels off thecorn into a basket and he comes
and asks her if she's seen anygringos, if she's seen any
Americans, and she's just like,well, I don't know, and he drags
(27:30):
her away.
So actual speaking parts fromwomen is minimal.
It's those two are the onlyones.
There are some extras on thebus or like in the dance scene,
but like we see very fewColombian women at all or women
at all, beyond the sort of whitewomen at the beginning and the
end, the other white women and Ithink that's worth noting, like
(27:54):
I'm going to use that like sortof Bechdel to the lack of women
in the scenes in Columbia, tothe kind of Joan Wilder is very
much a protagonist based on ourdeep thoughts definition, she is
the character who changes themost.
Not only is it from her pointof view, we also see her grow
and change.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Now, we talked about this before we hit record, but
the screenwriter was a woman.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, she was, and I feel like I should have her name
, but it's Diane Thomas.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Because I feel like that does that explains a lot of
like why.
Like it centers a white woman,it centers a white woman writer.
It is, in a lot of ways, likeit centers a white woman, it
centers a white woman writer.
It is, in a lot of ways, like awish fulfillment for a white
woman writer.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Right and so, with that context that you've just
named, armed with that context,looking at the fact that so this
shrinking violet, who writesthese very successful romance
novels but has no romance in herlife and actually is sort of
disdainful of the possibility,we see she just turns down
without even thinking the menthat Gloria is trying to
(29:04):
encourage her to pursue.
She goes to Colombia and fallsin love with a white man.
There's something reallyproblematic, problematic about
that.
In some ways this does feellike a feminist movie.
Like, over and over again, wesee joan is is in fact capable,
right, she takes the machetefrom jack.
(29:24):
At one point there's this likerickety old rope bridge that
he's like I'm not going on thatand while he's like doing
something else, she does and shegets herself across the ravine
and he ends up sort of swingingon a vine, which is how she gets
the rest of the way, because hehears her sort of yell as she
does.
But like, over and over andover again, we see Joan actually
(29:48):
is very capable.
And so there's a certain degreeof like, there is a pushing
back against patriarchy, but thefact that it's done in this way
in Colombia, where it's thislike the vision of Colombia,
even in Cartagena, which wedon't see very much of, is.
The only word that comes tomind is backwater, like that's
(30:11):
the way we were meant to see it.
It's this like savage.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I'm putting quotes around that jungle and that
starts to look imperialist to meof as wild and as far away and
as dangerous as possible to bethe place that would like be a
(30:39):
trial by fire for herprotagonist.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Pretty much all of the people that we meet while
she's there are in some likethey're drug runners or they're
drug dealers, like every singleone, or they menace her in some
other way, you know, and thenthey end up liking her because
of the writer thing.
But it's just.
I don't even fully know how toarticulate the sort of.
(31:04):
I guess, because it is so notfully thought out.
It's exactly what you justnamed.
It's just a backdrop andtherefore it's inaccurate and
insensitive portrayal.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And that's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Well, and it's frustrating because I have no
doubt that Diane Thomas feltwhat I'm thinking of is what I
was talking about in the GoldenGirls episode we recently did,
where it was so meaningful forme to see Betty White's example
of like overcoming peopleunderestimating her.
You know like and so you knowjust.
(31:40):
And this is a similar sort ofthing where Joan Wilder is like
showing herself to be capablebecause people underestimate her
, because she writes romancenovels and she also is a
homebody and doesn't like tolike, she doesn't like the
conflict, she doesn't likedealing with these things, and
so she also underestimatesherself.
No-transcript, it made me feelgreat as a kid.
(32:32):
On the other hand, it'signoring how that is
underestimating and likeoverlooking and completely just
flattening, flattening, yeah,flattening an entire country of
people where, like, the entirecountry of columbia is reduced
(32:55):
to stereotypes of drug runnerslike drug runners or like.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
know the villagers who just like gather up the
birds and keep walking yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, so that, and the only way in which it's like
pushing back against stereotypesis like they like my writing
Right, which is still a charmingmoment, but it's that, yes,
it's the wish fulfillment.
It's like the pushback isn'teven.
It's not surprising.
It's not pushing back in a way,that is, it's still flattening
(33:30):
them.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, I mean it is worth.
It's interesting that eventhough he's meant to have been
there for I think he says liketwo and a half years or
something he's still surprisedwhen the Colombian folks respond
in English to his brokenSpanish Jack is.
We see that happen like severaltimes and he's like, oh, you
speak English, great.
And he's speaking to them inthis like I don't know if
(33:53):
broken's the right word, butlike poorly accented.
I mean, he seems to speak andunderstand Spanish, but he
speaks it like poorly accented,like a very thick American
accent, and then is surprisedwhen people reply to him in
English, which is like aninteresting I hesitate to call
myself fluent, but I was asfluent as I'm capable of being
(34:15):
and it was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But I have an American accent and as soon as
people heard the American accent, they would speak in English,
even if my French was betterthan their English.
Right like just immediatelythere was something.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It was, honestly, it was like a charming.
It was a charming detail, butlet's talk about the romance
though.
Let's talk about the romancefor a moment, because this movie
, for me, was definitelyformative in terms of like, what
romance looks like.
And Joan describes herself Well, gloria calls her a hopeless
romantic.
And she corrects Gloria, atleast at the end, and says no,
(34:57):
I'm hopeful, I'm a hopefulromantic, I'm a hopeful romantic
.
And as I'm watching it now, asan adult, thinking about, like,
looking for this specifically,you know, it's one of those sort
of enemies to lovers, enemiesto friends to lovers, kind of a
trope which I love.
I love those, but in thiscontext it also was a little bit
of like the beauty and thebeast.
(35:18):
Not that Michael Douglas isn'tattractive, he's very attractive
but he's a jerk, you know, likehe's a ne'er-do-well and we
never know if he's going toabandon her at any moment.
In fact, he threatens to Likeit's not worth the money anymore
.
We see that he's going to tryto take the map from her.
She knows it.
She says why haven't you takenthe map from me yet?
(35:45):
And I think that, like the coreassumption there, the one that
is so dangerous, that has gottenme into trouble with so many
boyfriends is the idea that,like, yeah, he's kind of a bad
guy, he's not ideal, but it'sjust because nobody's loved him
hard enough.
You know, like if Joan loveshim hard enough, like he will be
a good guy.
He will transform into a goodguy and I feel like this movie
(36:07):
contributed to that idea that,like you don't understand him,
like I understand him, yeah,like that we can fix him.
I think this movie contributesto that idea.
You know that, like, the loveof a good woman can fix him, and
I'm kind of mad at it for thatyou know, that's something that
(36:29):
I've seen.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
like you know, when I see people talking about the
enemies to lovers trope theytalk about, they don't like it
for that reason, because thereis something about that.
The delicious bickering wherethere's that undercurrent of
sexual tension in the bickeringis just, oh, it's delicious.
But you do end up so oftengetting that undercurrent of
(36:51):
misogyny, in part because andI'll include a link to this I
saw there's a sub-stacker that Ilike Zahn Valines, who talks
about how misogyny is present inpretty much all heterosexual
relationships, which is one ofthe reasons why I right now
almost exclusively read MMromance, because if I'm going to
(37:11):
read an enemies-to-lovers trope, it's much less likely there's
going to be abuse in the centerof it.
And so you still get thatdelicious bickering and
bantering in there, but they'recoming at it on an equal playing
field, whereas, like, there'sstill a possibility, like, but
I'm less likely to get anemotional jump scare of someone
(37:32):
being an abusive asshole.
Yeah, but the assumption builtin is that, and within, like the
romance community and actuallythis is more like soap operas
we'll talk about how, like, awoman will have a glittery
hoo-ha is what turns a bad mangood, but that's, that's the
(37:55):
sort of thing where it's justlike, yeah, you know, she's the
love of a good woman.
The glittery hoo-ha, the like,it's just that is what's gonna
make it so that he will beactually trustworthy, that he
will actually climb the wall andsave her rather than go after
the jewel, and it's like shedoesn't actually need him.
She does, I mean at thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
She does the beginning at the end, she does
not need him but that's afteryou know.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
He has threatened to leave her multiple times and she
doesn't know if she's she cantrust him and it's, and he
throws her possessions away,yeah, like and like yeah, I, I,
you know the, the line that Imentioned.
Like when she says you're themost fun I've ever had, that's
appreciated that.
She's like okay, I'm having agood time here.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean when he kills the snake, when
they're in the plane, she'stalking to him and she's like
you, okay, I'm having a goodtime here, yeah, yeah, I mean,
when he kills the snake, whenthey're in the plane, she's
talking to him and she's likeyou're not even looking at me,
like it is so rude, like I'mtalking to you and you're not
even looking at me.
It's because he's looking atthis giant snake that he then
kills.
But even that sort of setup,like it's funny and it's played
sort of for laughs, but it'sthat same sort of like oh, she's
(39:00):
nagging and he's saving herlife, you know, like the
punchline is a little bit ofmisogyny again, you know.
Yeah, so I feel like I'm alittle bit annoyed when I look
at it and I'm particularlyannoyed because I still really
love this movie.
I watched it two nights ago andI enjoyed every minute of it.
It was really delightful and Ienjoyed every minute of it.
(39:23):
It was really delightful and Istill was rooting for them, even
as I'm looking at it and goingthis ain't cool, oh, but look, I
wish it didn't still hold thatkind of power, but it definitely
did.
Let me very quickly talk aboutDanny DeVito's character here,
because I think and sort ofstorytelling in general.
So this film, like Danny DeVitois this bumbling villain.
(39:47):
He's kind of like, like inSplash, eugene Levy's character.
He's constantly like he'sgetting hurt as he's trying to
get them and get the map and Ithink that helps keep it a
comedy, because the sadistic,mustachioed guy who is like a
colonel or whatever they callhim different things Zolo, like
(40:09):
he's actually really terrifying.
We see him kill people.
We see him, you know, doesn'tcare about anything.
Like when he menaces thisabuela that's just living her
life because she hasn't seenthem.
He's a bad guy and that couldmake it like actually like
raises the stakes, like he'sreally going to hurt people.
Danny DeVito can't, you know,and he's constantly arguing with
(40:33):
his cousin Ira on the phone andIra's just weird and really
into crocodiles for some reason,and like Danny DeVito ends up
getting like abandoned by Ira atthe very end, like so I feel
like, in terms of the actualstorytelling, there's a way in
which his character kind ofrelieves the tension of the
(40:53):
drama, part of this film ofcomic relief and the like really
charming chemistry between thetwo leads.
There's all of these plot holesthat you just don't care about.
Like I watched it and I was likeI, I, I noted it, but like
(41:15):
without even thinking about it.
I just hit the believe button.
So the map appears to be from amuch older era, like it appears
to be like the the way it'swritten and the way it's drawn.
It looks like it's I don't know19th century at the most recent
, you know.
And then there's this like1960s bunny statue that the
(41:36):
thing is in and like the devil'sfork tree would definitely have
rotted if it had been actuallydrawn 150 years ago.
We have no idea who originallyhad this stone and hid it, how
the brother-in-law found outabout it and ended up with the
map, how Zolo and Ira and Ralphknew that the brother-in-law had
(41:58):
them.
We have no idea and it's neveranswered.
It doesn't matter.
And that piece of it also feelslike I didn't care.
As I was watching it I didn'tcare at all and part of me
wonders if that's also like ameta commentary on romance
novels, right, that set up thesethings with these high stakes
but like just waves away thedetails which I'm not mad at,
(42:22):
like I think we've talked about.
Like your spouse, who's anengineer and like needs some of
those details to like line up.
Like I wonder if he would watchthis and be like what's with
the jewel?
Who, why, what, huh, whereas Ijust was like go with it, just
go with it, which is also, Ithink, maybe part of the meta
commentary.
Like she's a romance novelistand this is a romance novel, and
(42:43):
like maybe we're watching themovie of the book that she
ultimately wrote.
Like maybe this didn't evenhappen or maybe it happened, but
this is the fictionalizedversion of what happened to Joan
Wilder.
Like maybe the drug dealerwasn't.
Like oh, I read your like inreal life, real life in the
movie, I read your books to theguys every Saturday.
Like maybe it was just like, oh, I've heard of you, I don't
(43:06):
know, I don't know, but likethat doesn't.
Like that's kind of that's partof the charm and those plot
holes are like so forgivable forwhatever reason, and I don't
know if that's the genre or ifit's the chemistry of the two
leads that carried it, but I,just I, like I wanted to name
that.
I wanted to name both the DannyDeVito character as sort of
like lowering the stakes, andalso the fact that these big
(43:31):
holes in the plot, that justdidn't bother me and another
viewer maybe was, but it wonlike a screenwriting award for
Diane Thomas in the Oscars thatyear.
So, and it was, it did well inthe box office like well enough
to make the sequel.
That did not get Diane Thomasor Robert Zemeckis back who was
the director.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, it didn't get Diane.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Thomas back because, no, she died after it was
released.
She died after the second onewas released.
Oh, what Did she?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I think it was like two years later, okay, okay, I
think it was like two yearslater, okay, okay.
So, listener, she tragicallydied in a car accident in a
vehicle.
That was actually, apparently,a gift to her from Michael
Douglas as like a congratulatory, which is, like I don't know,
some kind of sick karma, alanisMorissette-level irony.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Anyway, those were the things I wanted to talk
about, about romancing, the sameyou mentioned before.
We started recording about hownot airbrushed they looked.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh, yes, thank you.
Yeah, there is a scene wherethey're in bed together.
It seems to be post-coitus, butthey're both naked.
You don't see any naughty bits,but he's kind of laying on top
of her and they're both justthem.
Like they're not airbrushed,they're not like there's no,
like cleaning it up in post,like it's just them and they're
(44:47):
beautiful people.
They were beautiful people in1984, but they're real and I
found that very refreshing.
We don't see that anymore.
Like, if people are naked onscreen, they're like not
actually human, you know,they're plastic in some way or
another.
Michael Douglas and KathleenTurner in that love scene, in
that scene where they're bothnude or semi-nude, they're real
(45:07):
and that was really refreshing.
Yeah, thank you for remindingme of that.
In the middle, not so much, andeven more so.
Like, though most of the movietakes place in Colombia, we
don't meet any Colombian womenand the only Colombian men we
(45:34):
meet are bad guys in some way.
And now the bad guys turn outto be the good guys in terms of,
like the drug runners and Ithink his name is Juan who saves
them in this truck and thisabsolute manic escape
shenanigans.
But when we first meet them,they're bad guys, and so the
whole picture of Columbia isjust a backdrop.
It is completely flattened, ajungle, a savage place where
(46:07):
scary things happen.
That then Joan can have thisromance with a white dude on top
of.
So in that sense the romance islike smacks of imperialism.
On the other side of that, orsort of part and parcel with
that is, there's a degree offeminism in making Joan truly a
protagonist who, by our deepthoughts definition, is a
protagonist because she is thecharacter who changes and grows
(46:29):
as a result of the action.
What we see is that she isactually capable, from the very
beginning, of so much more thaneven she realizes, and that's
what this adventure proves toher.
And so that by the end, thoughshe calls for him to save her,
she doesn't need Jack to saveher, she saves herself.
She kills that dude eight waystill Sunday, like with a knife
(46:52):
and with fire and withcrocodiles and with a big wooden
board that she smacks on thehand, the stump of his hand,
like she's a badass.
She's a badass, which wesuggested as a little bit of
like self-insert for DianeThomas, right, it's a writer who
wrote about a writer who was abadass and like the way you put
(47:12):
it I love.
It was like, look, ma, I can dostuff.
And like the fact that herbeing a writer served her well
in multiple occasions was like,look, ma, writing is a good
thing and it could save me,which I love.
Let me see what else.
The romance itself I am annoyedthat it is another sort of
(47:34):
Beauty and the Beast, or likeBender and Claire from the
Breakfast Club, where there'sthis sense, like it starts out,
it's an enemies to lovers trope.
And so there's this sense, likeit starts out, it's an enemies
to lovers trope.
And so there's this underlyingassumption that, like the love
of a good woman or a glitteryhoo-ha can like transform a kind
of shitty dude into someone youwould want to be with and I'm
(47:58):
mad at that and I'm mad atmyself for continuing to enjoy
it as much as I do.
And you pointed out the factthat inherent in every
heterosexual relationship ormost of them, many of them, a
great number of them comes withmisogyny and like, leads to like
what looks like abusive,abusive dynamics.
(48:27):
And you named the, you'reexclusively reading MM romance
if it's going to be enemies tolovers in particular, which I'm
with you there.
I am with you, and then the lastthing you reminded me that I
had shared before we hit recordwas the fact that we have this
moment of like actual flesh thatis not plastified or
(48:50):
photoshopped or like fixed inpost in this sexy scene, which
is really refreshing and,honestly, pretty sexy.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
What did I forget Danny DeVito as a bumbling
villain?
What?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
did I forget Danny DeVito as a bumbling villain?
Right?
And Danny DeVito as a bumblingvillain is part of what keeps
this as a comedy, a romanticcomedy.
He lowers the stakes for us.
I think it's significant thatthat happens in terms of sort of
storytelling.
Also, the fact that he's awhite guy who is the bumbling,
you know, so we have all theselike scary Colombian bad guys,
but it lowers the stakes a bitwith this guy, which makes it
(49:26):
easier for us to sort of.
You know, so we have all theselike scary Colombian bad guys,
but it lowers the stakes a bitwith this guy, which makes it
easier for us to sort of keepgoing.
Oh, and then also, I thinkmaybe he contributes to this,
like he just hit the I believebutton, you know, without even
thinking about it, for thesehuge plot holes and DeVito's
part of it, like how does heknow about this gig?
Like how does he know aboutthis gig?
How does he know about this map?
(49:46):
There's just no answers and toa certain extent, for whatever
reason, thomas wrote a scriptthat it didn't matter, and these
two actors, and there's a lotmore than just the script.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
I will say this does give for creatives.
This is a masterclass in how tohave stakes that are high
enough that you care, but youcan lower them so that you're
focused on the humor and theromance.
So that, like it is a romanticcomedy, thriller or action, it's
(50:17):
a romantic comedy, it's actionadventure, action adventure,
romantic comedy.
Yeah, thriller is the wrongword.
That's a difficult needle tothread, yeah, and some of it has
to like there's there's a bunchthat goes into it.
But diane thomas wrote anexcellent script and then they
did a really good job with theactors, like who they cast, and
then zemeckis did a good jobwith directing.
I mean, like it's a really goodindication of like how much
(50:39):
goes into these things to makethis a fun thing to watch.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
But still it is.
It is what a reviewer mightcall a fun romp.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
Speaking of fun romp, we've got a guest coming next
time, oh, is Aaron coming nextepisode?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Next episode Amazing Y'all.
Aaron Reynolds from F-ing Birdsis coming on Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit.
I know it's so exciting, Allright.
Well, I look forward to seeinghim and you To see what he has
to say All right, see you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(51:18):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
(51:42):
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
there's all of these plot holes that you just don't
care about, like I watched itand I was like I noted it but
like without even thinking aboutit, I just hit the believe
button and those plot holes arelike so forgivable for whatever
reason.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
(00:44):
just pop culture?
What others might deem stupidshit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture.
(01:07):
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
Thoughts about stupid shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what'sin your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1984 romantic comedyRomancing the Stone with my
sister, emily Guy-Burken, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
So, em, I know you've seen this.
I think we probably saw ittogether, possibly multiple
times but tell me what's in yourhead about Romancing the Stone.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I remember loving it.
I have wanted to be a writerfrom tiny childhood, so one of
the things that I rememberreally loving about this was the
fact that Joan Wilder, theKathleen Turner character, is a
novelist, and the fact that sheis a novelist is important to
her character and being able toget out of sticky situations
(01:51):
multiple times, and so that wassomething that I really, really
liked.
Specifically, there's a pointwhere the Michael Douglas
character, whose name I will notever remember actually says to
her all right, joan Wilder, howare you going to write us out of
this one when they're beingheld at gunpoint and it's the
menacing Colombian drug lord orsomething?
He's like Joan Wilder, the JoanWilder, I love you.
(02:15):
I love all your books, I havethem all and he has all of her
Bodice Ripper books and treatsthem with such kindness because
he loves the books that shewrites, which.
That scene lives rent free inmy head, because it's like that
is the writer's dream, notspecifically that moment, but
(02:37):
the fact that you know you neverknow how what you put down on
the page is going to affectsomeone else.
You never know how your storiesare going to reach other people
.
So I really, really loved thataspect of it.
I loved the romance because Iwas a little romantic at heart
as a child and the mix of likekind of romantic comedy and then
(03:02):
action adventure is my jam andthen like the fact that it's
romance, romance, comedy, actionadventure with a treasure map,
like totally my jam.
So those are the things that Iremember.
There were a couple of things.
There's one scene that Iremember making me a little
uncomfortable as a kid, which iswhere there's some sort of
(03:23):
mudslide and Michael Douglasends up sliding down into where
his face ends up in her crotch.
I remember that making me alittle uncomfortable.
I remember Danny DeVito beingkind of a charming bumbling
(03:49):
villain in after, and so MichaelDouglas makes sure she's safe
first she and her sister, whoshe's there to get and then goes
after the crocodile and youthink he might be dead, and then
at the very end he comes backand he's got crocodile skin
boots.
Those are the things in my head.
(04:09):
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
I think we have a specificreason, different from usual.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, you remember a lot.
Yeah, so we have a listener,amy, who we met at Fan Expo
Chicago, who reached out to usand asked if we would do this
movie, and actually it was onethat I loved as well, that we
both really liked, and so it wasan easy yes.
So this one's for you, Amy, soyeah, so that's why now.
(04:41):
But I also loved this film.
I definitely had a big crush onMichael Douglas' character when
I was, you know, in 84, 85, 86,when we were watching it on
repeat, like damn yeah, yeah,big crush on him, damn yeah.
So there was definitely someformative, like sense of romance
from this film.
But that's why now.
So let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the Destination
(05:01):
before I try to do a synopsis.
So, actually, amy mentionedthat the representation of
Colombia was important to her asa young person and like.
So that actually was somethingthat made me pay closer
attention based on her commentand the representation of that
country and the region, like inthis film made for North
Americans, white Americanspredominantly, and I also.
(05:36):
I want to talk about the romance, since I did have such a crush
on Michael Douglas's character,which his name was Jack T Colton
, by the way, and he tells us atone point that the T stands for
trustworthy.
He doesn't.
I want to talk a bit about theromance that we're given in
these two people.
Like I read one commentator whosaid that she didn't think that
they had any chemistry.
I completely disagree.
Like I would have believed thatMichael Douglas and Kathleen
(05:58):
Turner had an affair from thisfilm.
Like there was so muchchemistry from what I saw.
Like I really believe thechemistry so I think that was
part of it.
(06:29):
But, there's also, like you know, like he's not trustworthy and
there's some stuff that, likeyou never know until the very
end I'm still not sure, you knowlike she says to at be
trustworthy, but she is havingfun, yeah, yeah, I wanted to
talk about that.
I want to talk about sort ofyou know, race and imperialism
and feminism and storytelling.
Like we talk about theprotagonist, like who is the
protagonist, and so we'll talkabout that a little bit.
The reason that you glommedonto it as a kid, like this is a
writer wrote this about awriter, sort of what is the meta
(06:49):
commentary there from thescreenwriter?
So I want to talk about all ofthose things.
So that's where we'll get to,but let me start by trying to
give a synopsis.
I'll do my best.
It is an action-packedadventure, so I'm not going to
get all the details.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
And they're not going to be in order, but I'll do my
best.
It's like a 90 minute film,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
it's a pretty tidy, it's like an hour, and 40, 45
minutes, I think, okay runningtime still, so a little longer,
but pretty tidy.
Tidy film for action-packed.
It is action-packed though.
So the movie starts actuallywith a story within a story.
It's kathleen turner voiceoverof the end of a like American
Western historical fiction where, from the point of view of the
heroine, she defeats Grogan,who's the man who killed her
(07:38):
father, raped and murdered hersister, like, killed her dog and
stole her Bible, like it'sridiculous, like.
And then we see her, her loveinterest, jesse, who we only see
in silhouette with like a haton or whatever, and they like
reunite.
And then we cut to KathleenTurner and she's like in this,
(08:00):
like plaid nightgown at hertypewriter, she's crying and
she's like we see her typing thelast few words of what we just
saw, the voiceover, and then theend, and through actually very
tidy cinematography, to use yourword, we learn that Joan Wilder
is not great at adulting.
(08:21):
So she's crying because she'sjust made herself cry by writing
the ending of this novel.
And there are no tissues in thebox and there's no toilet paper
on the roll and there's nopaper towels, and she gets and
there's like post-its up allover, like all over her house,
and she looks in the mirror,like just outside the kitchen,
after she realizes there are nopaper towels and there's like a
(08:41):
post-it that says buy tissues.
So she blows her nose on thatpost-it.
So um, at some point we shouldtalk about the correlation
between writers and people withadhd, but not right now so we
meet her cat romeo, and like wesee her drink out of, she has
(09:04):
like a cabinet full of thosemini alcohol bottles Like they
sell in, like they come in likehotel mini bars, and we see her
drink a bottle of alcohol.
And anyway, the next day she'srunning late.
She has to take the manuscriptto her publisher.
The lady neighbor a neighborwho is called by her fault like
(09:26):
Mrs Something or other, and Ican't remember what it is right
now Hands her an envelope like abig manila envelope that has
all you see, is this floweryhandwriting that says Eduardo as
like the return address.
So she's at this bar with herpublisher and best friend,
gloria, and Gloria's trying tosay, well, what about that one?
What about that one About allthese men at this like bar
(09:48):
restaurant?
And she's just not interestedin any of them because she's
holding out for Jesse, thisfictional character that that
populates her novels Columbia.
(10:10):
Elaine's husband is dead andthey don't know why and they
didn't find the rest of him.
That's what we hear and wedon't know what happened to him.
And Joan says she's going to befine.
She always is, which is like aweird thing to say about, like
immediately, but anyway.
So we get back to her apartmentafter this bar thing and it has
been rifled through and we didactually we saw a very menacing
(10:32):
looking, mustachioed man, kindof watch her leave and then go
into the apartment and I thinkhe, he, he kills somebody who's
like what are you doing?
That's miss wilder's apartment.
So he's rifled through herwhole apartment and as she's
like looking around and kind offreaking out a little bit, the
cat's's okay, by the way.
The phone rings and it's Elaineand we see her.
(10:55):
She has Danny DeVito and thisother dude, this tall, bald dude
, who the character's name isIra and I do not remember the
actor's name.
Danny DeVito's character's nameis Ralph.
So they have Elaine.
Elaine's on the phone and shesays did Eduardo send you
anything?
And she says yep, yep here.
This is not I'm paraphrasing.
She has the envelope.
Elaine says you have to bringit to Columbia and initially
(11:19):
it's like I can't, and thenElaine says they're going to
hurt me, they're going to cut me.
We see the guys show Elaine aknife.
So Joan goes to Columbia tosave her sister.
Gloria tries to talk her out ofit, but she has to go save her
sister, so she's ticked.
Is joan, kind of agoraphobic orI don't know that I would use
that word, but she's very much ashrinking violet, she's very
(11:42):
much a home body.
So we see her on the street innew york city like with like
people like you know who sellstuff on the street, like trying
to sell her things like stupidstuff, umbrellas type thing,
like a stuffed monkey Okay, likereally useless stuff and like
she's very intimidated by thesepeople who like buskers on the
(12:03):
street or that's not the rightword, but you know what I mean
like these street vendors,merchants, and we see her sort
of like clutching her, she'sholding the manuscript in a box
and sort of making herselfsmaller as she moves through
these people who are trying tosell her stuff.
And it's clear from the housethat like she's there a lot and
(12:23):
what she said about all the menin the bar, like she just
doesn't want to go out.
So I did not get the impressionthat she is agoraphobic, as in
a phobia of outdoors, but I didget the impression that she's
very much a homebody and ashrinking violet and just not
comfortable as opposed to anactual phobia.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Gotcha.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Okay, so we skip the plane ride.
She's in Columbia.
She gets to Columbia and it'svery, very like I don't know
where the airport is in Colombia.
I didn't look that up but likein this movie, it's just like
this bare field with buses.
You know, she has to get toCartagena in order to turn over
the map.
The envelope was a map that shehas to turn over.
(13:03):
That's the ransom for hersister.
And she doesn't know where togo and nobody speaks English.
And she asks somebody it's thesame mustachio and she doesn't
know where to go and nobodyspeaks English.
And she asks somebody it's thesame mustachioed man who killed
a neighbor of hers and rifledthrough her house.
He says, oh, this is the busand we watch them change the
signs so we know he's lying toher.
This is the bus to Cartagena.
She says, oh, thank you so much.
So she gets on the bus and it'sgoing to like literally the
(13:26):
middle of nowhere.
Eventually she realizes thiscan't be right and tries to talk
to the bus driver who, whiletrying to talk to this woman who
has no Spanish, like he, hitsthis Jeep that's in the middle
of the road.
All the other passengers, likegrumbling in Spanish, get off
and they like pick up their likeparrots and cockatiels and
cages on this truck that's beenhit and they're like picking
(13:48):
them up and taking them away andthey're walking with all their
luggage.
The same mustachioed guy saysto her you don't need to walk,
another bus will be along.
And then he pulls a gun on herand enter from a high hill like
a stranger in a hat who fromsilhouette, looks a lot like
Jesse, the romantic lead fromthe western that we saw at the
(14:11):
very beginning does michaeldouglas play jesse in the?
I don't know you only see him insilhouette.
Yeah, yeah, it's possible, Idon't know.
And he sort of fights off themustachioed man and like scares
him off.
Turns out it was his truck,they were his birds, that was.
That's how he makes a living,is that?
He exports these exotic birds?
And she convinces him to takeher to Cartagena for $375 in
(14:36):
American traveler's checks andso they start walking.
It's raining like crazy andlike all of these adventures
ensue the mudslide that youremember that ends up with him
with his face in her crotch andthen at a certain point, like he
tosses her suitcase she's likedragging this big, like 1980s
(14:57):
suitcase and he like tosses itoff a cliff and she has her
shoes off for some reason andthey're high heels.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
That was before we put wheels on suitcases, wasn't
it?
Yeah, we got to the moon beforewe put wheels on suitcases,
wasn't it?
Yeah, we got to the moon beforewe put wheels on suitcases.
Yeah, something weird aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
So there's a great line she has these high heels
and he takes a machete and likejust hacks the heels off of them
and she says those were Italian.
And he goes now they'repractical.
It's a really great line.
And there's this like constantkind of back and forth.
They don't like each other,right, she doesn't trust him,
(15:36):
she doesn't have a choice and hekeeps saying things like would
you wake up today and think I'mgoing to ruin a man's life?
They do not like each otherAlready, though we start to see
actually like starting to bemore active.
So at a certain point, likehe's tired from like hacking
with the machete and he likeputs it into a tree and just is
(15:57):
like taking a rest.
And she's like aren't we gonnakeep moving?
And he says be my guest.
So she does, she takes themachete and she starts hacking
and they end up they find thisdowned plane which was drug
runners, which so it's full ofmarijuana in these like cubes.
They start a marijuana bonfireand he's surprised that she
knows what it is.
She says I went to college, sothey're sitting around this fire
(16:18):
and they're talking and hekills a ginormous snake so big.
That's like really scary.
And that's when he says hismiddle name is trustworthy.
So shenanigans ensue.
Okay, they end up in this townthat you remember, where they're
told like there's only one carin the whole town.
The bell maker has it.
(16:40):
And they go over to that houseand they knock on the door and
exactly exactly the way youremember it verbatim, like the
guy at the door is holding a gunon them, and then the gang of
the villagers all have gunstrained on them and he says,
write us out of this one, joanWilder.
And the guy inside the house,the Joan Wilder.
And it turns out he reads hernovels to the whole village,
(17:01):
like instead of a telenovela,every Saturday.
And they're all like hi, likethey're so delighted.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
I mean, that is the dream.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
So the sadistic mustachioed guy shows up and we
learn his name from Ralph andIra Danny DeVito.
And the other guy.
He has a military likecredentials, but he's like just
running.
He's just kind of rogue likerunning his own thing.
So he and his people show upand the guy Juan I think is his
(17:37):
name who reads her books to thevillagers, helps them escape in
this like delightfully manicsort of like dangerous kind of
way and he gets them out of thevillage and away from the bad
guys, at least for now.
They end up seeing this treethat's like shaped like a
(17:58):
trident, which is on the map.
It's called the devil's fork inspanish on the map and they
both recognize it, though theydon't say it to one another.
They end up in a town and Jackbuys them new clothes and they
go dancing and on the dancefloor it's this beautiful scene
where they're dancing, he'steaching her to dance and then
(18:21):
they start kissing and theneverybody around them is moving
in like double time and they'restanding there like making out.
Danny DeVito, meanwhile, isthere in this like farcical.
He's on the phone with Irasaying he lost her and like how
is supposed to find her?
She's got this partner.
And now the other bad guy, zolo, is here.
And then he's like looks up andthey're walking toward him and
(18:44):
he's like she's here, she's here, so he's trying to get her bag
the whole time, like sneakingunder tables and getting beat up
by Colombian women whose tablehe's under Like it's just
ridiculous.
So they end up in bed together.
We cut to them like sort of Iguess it's supposed to be
post-coitus, but they're bothnaked, like lying on top of one,
(19:05):
like he's laying on top of her,and they're talking and she
says, I guess maybe I should.
He had been trying to convinceher to go get the treasure,
whatever it is, and they'd havemore leverage, not just the map
but actually the treasure.
And she's like, yeah, maybethat's a good idea.
And then we see him sort ofpull the map out from under the
mattress and stick it back inher bag.
So they follow the map.
(19:28):
They actually like steal a car,which happens to be Danny
Vito's car, that he happens tobe sleeping in the back of, and
they find the place where thething is buried and they're like
digging through this, likemuddy water, just inside a cave,
and that's I'm pretty surethat's when she says you're the
most fun I've ever had.
And they find it.
And she says it're the most funI've ever had.
(19:49):
And they find it.
And she says it's a pricelessstatue.
And they turn it over and it'sthis weird, like Easter bunny
statue, like from the 60s.
And here's another moment whereher being a writer actually
advances the plot.
She says oh, in my first bookthe real treasure was inside the
statue.
So they break the Easter bunnyand this heart-shaped, faceted
(20:11):
green gem falls out.
And then Danny DeVito shows upand takes it from them.
And then Zolo's people show upand there's a chase and the car
ends up in a river and she'slike still searing.
He's like what are you doing?
And they go down the falls,they both jump out and they end
(20:31):
up on opposite sides of thisgiant river.
They yell across to one another.
She says like she doesn't trusthim.
She's like you're never, I'mnever gonna see you again and I
need that to save my sister.
And he says you still have themap.
They don't know.
We have the stone.
So he says he's gonna meet herat the hotel where she's
supposed to do the handoff.
So she goes and we see her talkto Ira and they make the plan
(20:54):
for where the handoff willhappen for the map.
And she calls the front deskhas Jack T Colton checked in?
And the guy on the other linesays not in the past two minutes
, meet the kidnappers.
(21:18):
She hands over the map and Irais delighted.
He's so excited.
And then Jack shows up and hesays I missed you at the hotel.
We all did.
And then he gets pushed intothe full view and Zolo's people
are behind him with guns andstuff.
Zolo burns the map.
He says this is useless.
They already have the gem.
Where is it?
She says I don't have it.
And then they say well, jackmust.
And so somebody like puts arifle butt into his crotch.
(21:39):
But it makes a funny sound andhe does this weird little hip
jiggle and the stone falls downhis pant leg and lands on his
boot.
Oh yeah, I remember that, yeah.
And he says you can choke on it.
He like kicks it up into theair.
Zolo reaches out and catches itand says thank you.
And then he gets Captain Hookedand the crocodile bites his hand
(22:01):
off with the stone in it andthen a whole bunch of fighting
ensue and Joan is a badass,she's a total badass.
So she like stabs the bad guy,she hits his you know amputated
stump with a like a wooden board, and then she pushes him into
this like lamp and so he's onfire and his hand shuts off.
(22:27):
And then like he ends upfalling down into this pit of
crocodiles.
So he's gone down into this pitof crocodiles.
So he's gone, so in the interim, like she'd been calling for
Jack to come help.
He actually like scales a wall.
He had chased after thecrocodile that first bit off his
hand and he's like scales thiswall to come save her.
By the time he gets up thereshe's already taken care of
(22:48):
everything.
So Elaine has fainted at thispoint.
So he says so, elaine hasfainted at this point.
So he says I'll come find you,or something like that.
And he like dives off this hugerampart like into
crocodile-infested water.
And so we like skip a wholebunch of shit, we just fast
forward.
And she is now she's inGloria's office and she just
(23:10):
looks much calmer and morepracticed.
And Gloria is crying and shesays, oh, my god, that ending.
When he like jumps off theramparts and then meets her at
the airport, oh, and it's yourbest book yet, and then she's
walking back on the New Yorkstreet.
Now we see all those samemerchants, like trying, and
she's like, no thanks, no thanks.
(23:31):
She's like not bothered by them.
Now and there's this giantsailboat which had had been a
running thing.
This was his dream.
Jack's dream was to get asailboat.
He was trying to make enoughmoney that he could get a
sailboat.
This giant sailboat is like,parked on whatever you carry a
sailboat with on the street inthe middle of New York City.
She looks up and it's him andhe's wearing, as you remember,
(23:53):
crocodile skin boots and sheputs down her grocery bag, pulls
out the flowers and climbs upand then they sail.
I'm putting quotes around thatoff into the sunset on a New
York City street, and that's theend of the movie, some through
lines that I want to name, thatI that feel important for some
of the things before Before youdo that, I just want to say do
you know the two best days of aboat owner's life Day they buy
(24:16):
the boat and the day they sellthe boat?
I mean I don't know, but anyway,please go ahead.
So the boat thing was importantthroughout and initially he was
saying he was going to be byhimself.
And then when they were nakedin the bed, he like shows her
the picture.
He's like maybe we could gotogether.
So that was a thing, that was athing, that was a through line.
(24:40):
There's also felt important as Iwas watching in the very first
scene that story within thestory, with Grogan.
Grogan says you can die fast,like I don't remember what the
simile was, or you can die slow,like molasses in January, and
she's like it's May, and he goesI don't care if it's the 4th of
July, anyway, but that you candie fast or you can die slow.
And then the heroine in thatshow, like in that book that she
was writing, pulled a knifefrom her garter belt and tossed
(25:03):
it at the guy and that's how hedied.
When she's facing Zolo afterhis hand has been bitten off, he
says to her do you want to diefast or die slow?
Different similesiles, but fastor slow.
And she, like you see herwheels turning because she like
has a knife and she throws it athim, but he catches it on a
(25:25):
piece of wood he's carrying, andnow he's got a knife.
So there's like thisinteresting moment where we see
this like mirroring and it endsvery different.
It ends differently thatspecific scene, though.
Joan still ends up killing thebad guy.
So I just wanted to make surethat I named that piece because
I felt like that was reallyinteresting writing.
(25:47):
So I will start with the Bechdeltest, because I think that's
it's fairly straightforward.
So the Bechdel test from AlisonBechdel, who does want to be
known for this, but it's souseful are there at least two
named female characters?
Do they talk to one another,and do they talk to one another
about something other than a boyor a man?
This does pass, because Joantalks to Gloria about the book.
(26:07):
She also talks about men, butshe does talk about the book and
she talks about Elaine too.
Yeah, and she talks about hercat with Gloria and going to
Columbia, yeah, so they talkabout various things.
She also talks to Elaine aboutvarious things, not just a man,
yeah, yeah, so it does passBechdel, but that's it, and I
(26:29):
think it's worth noting and thiscan maybe segue me into some of
the other things that I want totalk about.
There are no women.
We see very few women inColombia at all.
We see the woman who beats upDanny DeVito because he's under
her table in a restaurant.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
So meaning we see very few Colombian women.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
We see very few women at all.
Oh, okay, like we see Joan,that's pretty much it.
But while she's in columbia,yeah, there are very few
colombian women.
There are a few like extras,like on the bus, or the woman
who beats up dan duvido, orthere's like an abuela, like a
grandma who's sitting, likeshe's in the town where the drug
(27:08):
dealer reads her books.
We like, as part of theevidence of Zolo's sadism, I
think there's an old ladysitting there using two dried
corn to get the kernels off thecorn into a basket and he comes
and asks her if she's seen anygringos, if she's seen any
Americans, and she's just like,well, I don't know, and he drags
(27:30):
her away.
So actual speaking parts fromwomen is minimal.
It's those two are the onlyones.
There are some extras on thebus or like in the dance scene,
but like we see very fewColombian women at all or women
at all, beyond the sort of whitewomen at the beginning and the
end, the other white women and Ithink that's worth noting, like
(27:54):
I'm going to use that like sortof Bechdel to the lack of women
in the scenes in Columbia, tothe kind of Joan Wilder is very
much a protagonist based on ourdeep thoughts definition, she is
the character who changes themost.
Not only is it from her pointof view, we also see her grow
and change.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Now, we talked about this before we hit record, but
the screenwriter was a woman.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Yes, she was, and I feel like I should have her name
, but it's Diane Thomas.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
Because I feel like that does that explains a lot of
like why.
Like it centers a white woman,it centers a white woman writer.
It is, in a lot of ways, likeit centers a white woman, it
centers a white woman writer.
It is, in a lot of ways, like awish fulfillment for a white
woman writer.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Right and so, with that context that you've just
named, armed with that context,looking at the fact that so this
shrinking violet, who writesthese very successful romance
novels but has no romance in herlife and actually is sort of
disdainful of the possibility,we see she just turns down
without even thinking the menthat Gloria is trying to
(29:04):
encourage her to pursue.
She goes to Colombia and fallsin love with a white man.
There's something reallyproblematic, problematic about
that.
In some ways this does feellike a feminist movie.
Like, over and over again, wesee joan is is in fact capable,
right, she takes the machetefrom jack.
(29:24):
At one point there's this likerickety old rope bridge that
he's like I'm not going on thatand while he's like doing
something else, she does and shegets herself across the ravine
and he ends up sort of swingingon a vine, which is how she gets
the rest of the way, because hehears her sort of yell as she
does.
But like, over and over andover again, we see Joan actually
(29:48):
is very capable.
And so there's a certain degreeof like, there is a pushing
back against patriarchy, but thefact that it's done in this way
in Colombia, where it's thislike the vision of Colombia,
even in Cartagena, which wedon't see very much of, is.
The only word that comes tomind is backwater, like that's
(30:11):
the way we were meant to see it.
It's this like savage.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
I'm putting quotes around that jungle and that
starts to look imperialist to meof as wild and as far away and
as dangerous as possible to bethe place that would like be a
(30:39):
trial by fire for herprotagonist.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Pretty much all of the people that we meet while
she's there are in some likethey're drug runners or they're
drug dealers, like every singleone, or they menace her in some
other way, you know, and thenthey end up liking her because
of the writer thing.
But it's just.
I don't even fully know how toarticulate the sort of.
(31:04):
I guess, because it is so notfully thought out.
It's exactly what you justnamed.
It's just a backdrop andtherefore it's inaccurate and
insensitive portrayal.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And that's really what it is.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Well, and it's frustrating because I have no
doubt that Diane Thomas feltwhat I'm thinking of is what I
was talking about in the GoldenGirls episode we recently did,
where it was so meaningful forme to see Betty White's example
of like overcoming peopleunderestimating her.
You know like and so you knowjust.
(31:40):
And this is a similar sort ofthing where Joan Wilder is like
showing herself to be capablebecause people underestimate her
, because she writes romancenovels and she also is a
homebody and doesn't like tolike, she doesn't like the
conflict, she doesn't likedealing with these things, and
so she also underestimatesherself.
No-transcript, it made me feelgreat as a kid.
(32:32):
On the other hand, it'signoring how that is
underestimating and likeoverlooking and completely just
flattening, flattening, yeah,flattening an entire country of
people where, like, the entirecountry of columbia is reduced
(32:55):
to stereotypes of drug runnerslike drug runners or like.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
know the villagers who just like gather up the
birds and keep walking yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, so that, and the only way in which it's like
pushing back against stereotypesis like they like my writing
Right, which is still a charmingmoment, but it's that, yes,
it's the wish fulfillment.
It's like the pushback isn'teven.
It's not surprising.
It's not pushing back in a way,that is, it's still flattening
(33:30):
them.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah, I mean it is worth.
It's interesting that eventhough he's meant to have been
there for I think he says liketwo and a half years or
something he's still surprisedwhen the Colombian folks respond
in English to his brokenSpanish Jack is.
We see that happen like severaltimes and he's like, oh, you
speak English, great.
And he's speaking to them inthis like I don't know if
(33:53):
broken's the right word, butlike poorly accented.
I mean, he seems to speak andunderstand Spanish, but he
speaks it like poorly accented,like a very thick American
accent, and then is surprisedwhen people reply to him in
English, which is like aninteresting I hesitate to call
myself fluent, but I was asfluent as I'm capable of being
(34:15):
and it was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
But I have an American accent and as soon as
people heard the American accent, they would speak in English,
even if my French was betterthan their English.
Right like just immediatelythere was something.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
It was, honestly, it was like a charming.
It was a charming detail, butlet's talk about the romance
though.
Let's talk about the romancefor a moment, because this movie
, for me, was definitelyformative in terms of like, what
romance looks like.
And Joan describes herself Well, gloria calls her a hopeless
romantic.
And she corrects Gloria, atleast at the end, and says no,
(34:57):
I'm hopeful, I'm a hopefulromantic, I'm a hopeful romantic
.
And as I'm watching it now, asan adult, thinking about, like,
looking for this specifically,you know, it's one of those sort
of enemies to lovers, enemiesto friends to lovers, kind of a
trope which I love.
I love those, but in thiscontext it also was a little bit
of like the beauty and thebeast.
(35:18):
Not that Michael Douglas isn'tattractive, he's very attractive
but he's a jerk, you know, likehe's a ne'er-do-well and we
never know if he's going toabandon her at any moment.
In fact, he threatens to Likeit's not worth the money anymore
.
We see that he's going to tryto take the map from her.
She knows it.
She says why haven't you takenthe map from me yet?
(35:45):
And I think that, like the coreassumption there, the one that
is so dangerous, that has gottenme into trouble with so many
boyfriends is the idea that,like, yeah, he's kind of a bad
guy, he's not ideal, but it'sjust because nobody's loved him
hard enough.
You know, like if Joan loveshim hard enough, like he will be
a good guy.
He will transform into a goodguy and I feel like this movie
(36:07):
contributed to that idea that,like you don't understand him,
like I understand him, yeah,like that we can fix him.
I think this movie contributesto that idea.
You know that, like, the loveof a good woman can fix him, and
I'm kind of mad at it for thatyou know, that's something that
(36:29):
I've seen.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
like you know, when I see people talking about the
enemies to lovers trope theytalk about, they don't like it
for that reason, because thereis something about that.
The delicious bickering wherethere's that undercurrent of
sexual tension in the bickeringis just, oh, it's delicious.
But you do end up so oftengetting that undercurrent of
(36:51):
misogyny, in part because andI'll include a link to this I
saw there's a sub-stacker that Ilike Zahn Valines, who talks
about how misogyny is present inpretty much all heterosexual
relationships, which is one ofthe reasons why I right now
almost exclusively read MMromance, because if I'm going to
(37:11):
read an enemies-to-lovers trope, it's much less likely there's
going to be abuse in the centerof it.
And so you still get thatdelicious bickering and
bantering in there, but they'recoming at it on an equal playing
field, whereas, like, there'sstill a possibility, like, but
I'm less likely to get anemotional jump scare of someone
(37:32):
being an abusive asshole.
Yeah, but the assumption builtin is that, and within, like the
romance community and actuallythis is more like soap operas
we'll talk about how, like, awoman will have a glittery
hoo-ha is what turns a bad mangood, but that's, that's the
(37:55):
sort of thing where it's justlike, yeah, you know, she's the
love of a good woman.
The glittery hoo-ha, the like,it's just that is what's gonna
make it so that he will beactually trustworthy, that he
will actually climb the wall andsave her rather than go after
the jewel, and it's like shedoesn't actually need him.
She does, I mean at thebeginning.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
She does the beginning at the end, she does
not need him but that's afteryou know.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
He has threatened to leave her multiple times and she
doesn't know if she's she cantrust him and it's, and he
throws her possessions away,yeah, like and like yeah, I, I,
you know the, the line that Imentioned.
Like when she says you're themost fun I've ever had, that's
appreciated that.
She's like okay, I'm having agood time here.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah, yeah, I mean when he kills the snake, when
they're in the plane, she'stalking to him and she's like
you, okay, I'm having a goodtime here, yeah, yeah, I mean,
when he kills the snake, whenthey're in the plane, she's
talking to him and she's likeyou're not even looking at me,
like it is so rude, like I'mtalking to you and you're not
even looking at me.
It's because he's looking atthis giant snake that he then
kills.
But even that sort of setup,like it's funny and it's played
sort of for laughs, but it'sthat same sort of like oh, she's
(39:00):
nagging and he's saving herlife, you know, like the
punchline is a little bit ofmisogyny again, you know.
Yeah, so I feel like I'm alittle bit annoyed when I look
at it and I'm particularlyannoyed because I still really
love this movie.
I watched it two nights ago andI enjoyed every minute of it.
It was really delightful and Ienjoyed every minute of it.
(39:23):
It was really delightful and Istill was rooting for them, even
as I'm looking at it and goingthis ain't cool, oh, but look, I
wish it didn't still hold thatkind of power, but it definitely
did.
Let me very quickly talk aboutDanny DeVito's character here,
because I think and sort ofstorytelling in general.
So this film, like Danny DeVitois this bumbling villain.
(39:47):
He's kind of like, like inSplash, eugene Levy's character.
He's constantly like he'sgetting hurt as he's trying to
get them and get the map and Ithink that helps keep it a
comedy, because the sadistic,mustachioed guy who is like a
colonel or whatever they callhim different things Zolo, like
(40:09):
he's actually really terrifying.
We see him kill people.
We see him, you know, doesn'tcare about anything.
Like when he menaces thisabuela that's just living her
life because she hasn't seenthem.
He's a bad guy and that couldmake it like actually like
raises the stakes, like he'sreally going to hurt people.
Danny DeVito can't, you know,and he's constantly arguing with
(40:33):
his cousin Ira on the phone andIra's just weird and really
into crocodiles for some reason,and like Danny DeVito ends up
getting like abandoned by Ira atthe very end, like so I feel
like, in terms of the actualstorytelling, there's a way in
which his character kind ofrelieves the tension of the
(40:53):
drama, part of this film ofcomic relief and the like really
charming chemistry between thetwo leads.
There's all of these plot holesthat you just don't care about.
Like I watched it and I was likeI, I, I noted it, but like
(41:15):
without even thinking about it.
I just hit the believe button.
So the map appears to be from amuch older era, like it appears
to be like the the way it'swritten and the way it's drawn.
It looks like it's I don't know19th century at the most recent
, you know.
And then there's this like1960s bunny statue that the
(41:36):
thing is in and like the devil'sfork tree would definitely have
rotted if it had been actuallydrawn 150 years ago.
We have no idea who originallyhad this stone and hid it, how
the brother-in-law found outabout it and ended up with the
map, how Zolo and Ira and Ralphknew that the brother-in-law had
(41:58):
them.
We have no idea and it's neveranswered.
It doesn't matter.
And that piece of it also feelslike I didn't care.
As I was watching it I didn'tcare at all and part of me
wonders if that's also like ameta commentary on romance
novels, right, that set up thesethings with these high stakes
but like just waves away thedetails which I'm not mad at,
(42:22):
like I think we've talked about.
Like your spouse, who's anengineer and like needs some of
those details to like line up.
Like I wonder if he would watchthis and be like what's with
the jewel?
Who, why, what, huh, whereas Ijust was like go with it, just
go with it, which is also, Ithink, maybe part of the meta
commentary.
Like she's a romance novelistand this is a romance novel, and
(42:43):
like maybe we're watching themovie of the book that she
ultimately wrote.
Like maybe this didn't evenhappen or maybe it happened, but
this is the fictionalizedversion of what happened to Joan
Wilder.
Like maybe the drug dealerwasn't.
Like oh, I read your like inreal life, real life in the
movie, I read your books to theguys every Saturday.
Like maybe it was just like, oh, I've heard of you, I don't
(43:06):
know, I don't know, but likethat doesn't.
Like that's kind of that's partof the charm and those plot
holes are like so forgivable forwhatever reason, and I don't
know if that's the genre or ifit's the chemistry of the two
leads that carried it, but I,just I, like I wanted to name
that.
I wanted to name both the DannyDeVito character as sort of
like lowering the stakes, andalso the fact that these big
(43:31):
holes in the plot, that justdidn't bother me and another
viewer maybe was, but it wonlike a screenwriting award for
Diane Thomas in the Oscars thatyear.
So, and it was, it did well inthe box office like well enough
to make the sequel.
That did not get Diane Thomasor Robert Zemeckis back who was
the director.
Speaker 2 (43:50):
Well, it didn't get Diane.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
Thomas back because, no, she died after it was
released.
She died after the second onewas released.
Oh, what Did she?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I think it was like two years later, okay, okay, I
think it was like two yearslater, okay, okay.
So, listener, she tragicallydied in a car accident in a
vehicle.
That was actually, apparently,a gift to her from Michael
Douglas as like a congratulatory, which is, like I don't know,
some kind of sick karma, alanisMorissette-level irony.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Anyway, those were the things I wanted to talk
about, about romancing, the sameyou mentioned before.
We started recording about hownot airbrushed they looked.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Oh, yes, thank you.
Yeah, there is a scene wherethey're in bed together.
It seems to be post-coitus, butthey're both naked.
You don't see any naughty bits,but he's kind of laying on top
of her and they're both justthem.
Like they're not airbrushed,they're not like there's no,
like cleaning it up in post,like it's just them and they're
(44:47):
beautiful people.
They were beautiful people in1984, but they're real and I
found that very refreshing.
We don't see that anymore.
Like, if people are naked onscreen, they're like not
actually human, you know,they're plastic in some way or
another.
Michael Douglas and KathleenTurner in that love scene, in
that scene where they're bothnude or semi-nude, they're real
(45:07):
and that was really refreshing.
Yeah, thank you for remindingme of that.
In the middle, not so much, andeven more so.
Like, though most of the movietakes place in Colombia, we
don't meet any Colombian womenand the only Colombian men we
(45:34):
meet are bad guys in some way.
And now the bad guys turn outto be the good guys in terms of,
like the drug runners and Ithink his name is Juan who saves
them in this truck and thisabsolute manic escape
shenanigans.
But when we first meet them,they're bad guys, and so the
whole picture of Columbia isjust a backdrop.
It is completely flattened, ajungle, a savage place where
(46:07):
scary things happen.
That then Joan can have thisromance with a white dude on top
of.
So in that sense the romance islike smacks of imperialism.
On the other side of that, orsort of part and parcel with
that is, there's a degree offeminism in making Joan truly a
protagonist who, by our deepthoughts definition, is a
protagonist because she is thecharacter who changes and grows
(46:29):
as a result of the action.
What we see is that she isactually capable, from the very
beginning, of so much more thaneven she realizes, and that's
what this adventure proves toher.
And so that by the end, thoughshe calls for him to save her,
she doesn't need Jack to saveher, she saves herself.
She kills that dude eight waystill Sunday, like with a knife
(46:52):
and with fire and withcrocodiles and with a big wooden
board that she smacks on thehand, the stump of his hand,
like she's a badass.
She's a badass, which wesuggested as a little bit of
like self-insert for DianeThomas, right, it's a writer who
wrote about a writer who was abadass and like the way you put
(47:12):
it I love.
It was like, look, ma, I can dostuff.
And like the fact that herbeing a writer served her well
in multiple occasions was like,look, ma, writing is a good
thing and it could save me,which I love.
Let me see what else.
The romance itself I am annoyedthat it is another sort of
(47:34):
Beauty and the Beast, or likeBender and Claire from the
Breakfast Club, where there'sthis sense, like it starts out,
it's an enemies to lovers trope.
And so there's this sense, likeit starts out, it's an enemies
to lovers trope.
And so there's this underlyingassumption that, like the love
of a good woman or a glitteryhoo-ha can like transform a kind
of shitty dude into someone youwould want to be with and I'm
(47:58):
mad at that and I'm mad atmyself for continuing to enjoy
it as much as I do.
And you pointed out the factthat inherent in every
heterosexual relationship ormost of them, many of them, a
great number of them comes withmisogyny and like, leads to like
what looks like abusive,abusive dynamics.
(48:27):
And you named the, you'reexclusively reading MM romance
if it's going to be enemies tolovers in particular, which I'm
with you there.
I am with you, and then the lastthing you reminded me that I
had shared before we hit recordwas the fact that we have this
moment of like actual flesh thatis not plastified or
(48:50):
photoshopped or like fixed inpost in this sexy scene, which
is really refreshing and,honestly, pretty sexy.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
What did I forget Danny DeVito as a bumbling
villain?
What?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
did I forget Danny DeVito as a bumbling villain?
Right?
And Danny DeVito as a bumblingvillain is part of what keeps
this as a comedy, a romanticcomedy.
He lowers the stakes for us.
I think it's significant thatthat happens in terms of sort of
storytelling.
Also, the fact that he's awhite guy who is the bumbling,
you know, so we have all theselike scary Colombian bad guys,
but it lowers the stakes a bitwith this guy, which makes it
(49:26):
easier for us to sort of.
You know, so we have all theselike scary Colombian bad guys,
but it lowers the stakes a bitwith this guy, which makes it
easier for us to sort of keepgoing.
Oh, and then also, I thinkmaybe he contributes to this,
like he just hit the I believebutton, you know, without even
thinking about it, for thesehuge plot holes and DeVito's
part of it, like how does heknow about this gig?
Like how does he know aboutthis gig?
How does he know about this map?
(49:46):
There's just no answers and toa certain extent, for whatever
reason, thomas wrote a scriptthat it didn't matter, and these
two actors, and there's a lotmore than just the script.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
I will say this does give for creatives.
This is a masterclass in how tohave stakes that are high
enough that you care, but youcan lower them so that you're
focused on the humor and theromance.
So that, like it is a romanticcomedy, thriller or action, it's
(50:17):
a romantic comedy, it's actionadventure, action adventure,
romantic comedy.
Yeah, thriller is the wrongword.
That's a difficult needle tothread, yeah, and some of it has
to like there's there's a bunchthat goes into it.
But diane thomas wrote anexcellent script and then they
did a really good job with theactors, like who they cast, and
then zemeckis did a good jobwith directing.
I mean, like it's a really goodindication of like how much
(50:39):
goes into these things to makethis a fun thing to watch.
Speaker 1 (50:44):
But still it is.
It is what a reviewer mightcall a fun romp.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
Speaking of fun romp, we've got a guest coming next
time, oh, is Aaron coming nextepisode?
Speaker 1 (50:57):
Next episode Amazing Y'all.
Aaron Reynolds from F-ing Birdsis coming on Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit.
I know it's so exciting, Allright.
Well, I look forward to seeinghim and you To see what he has
to say All right, see you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(51:18):
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
(51:42):
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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