Rosemary's Baby with Ryan Cunningham: Deep Thoughts About Gaslighting, Monstrous Men, and Satanism in Pop Culture

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I just think it's an incredibly amazing movie that
talks about as like.
Horribly unfeminist as it is,it's also weirdly feminist
because it's like the horror isthe gaslighting.
Really, you know, and you seeit so clearly, and I find so

(00:20):
many things about this moviedelightful and I know that it is
directed by a monster.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit overthink,with us as we delve into our

(00:48):
deep thoughts about stupid shit.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'm veryhappy to welcome Ryan Cunningham
to share her deep thoughtsabout the film Rosemary's Baby
with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and me and you let's dive in.
So I'm really excited to haveRyan Cunningham here on the show

(01:16):
today.
She is a queer award-winningwriter-director and Emmy and
Peabody award-winning producerwho uses comedy to tackle the
stuff we're usually too politeor too scared to talk about.
Her credits span film LoneWolves, tv, including Broad City
and Expecting Amy, and theater,including Sugar Daddy and Wit's

(01:37):
End, with a focus on storiesthat center women, lgbtq plus
voices and neurodivergentperspectives.
A RISD alum and trustee, sheco-owns the NYC Post House
Running man and lives inBrooklyn with her gloriously
opinionated daughter.
She recently gave a TED Talk onneurodivergent comedy and
believes the punchline is oftenwhere the healing begins.

(01:57):
So, ryan, welcome.
I'm very, very excited to haveyou.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
So, since we're going to be talking about Rosemary's
Baby, I wanted to start byasking Tracy what she knows,
remembers, what relationship shehas with this film.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Yeah, thanks, em, and welcome Ryan.
I'm excited to have you.
I don't think I've seen thisfilm like, at least not all the
way through.
So the furniture that's in myhead about Rosemary's Baby is
the Antichrist, who is carried,born by a human woman, and evil

(02:36):
shenanigans.
That's about it.
That's about the furniture ofthe brain that I've got for
Rosemary's Baby.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
So, em, what about you?
Evil shenanigans, evilshenanigans.

Speaker 3 (02:43):
So I saw Rosemary's Baby for the first time in the
summer of 2009.
I remember because it was whenI was still teaching, but it was
summer.
I liked it so much that when myhusband came home I made him
watch it.
So I watched it twice in oneday, and he does not do horror.
So he's like why are you makingme watch this?
It's not like really horrorthough.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:06):
Yeah, and that was especially significant because
my first child was born in thesummer of 2010.
So because the film is reallyabout Rosemary's pregnancy, it
was very much in my head duringmy pregnancy with my first child
, so part of what really got mewas the gaslighting Not that the

(03:37):
term for that was necessarilyin the zeitgeist either in 2009
or in the 70s when the film wasmade of.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Rosemary 60s.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Thank you was made of Rosemary 60s, thank you, 60s,
yeah, of Rosemary.
But that was what was going onwith Guy, her husband's lying to
her about what was happeningbecause her obstetrician was in
on it, and all of that.
And there was an aspect of thatthat resonated with my
pregnancy because, for instance,there was a point in my

(04:05):
pregnancy where I got a urinarytract infection that the
symptoms were masked by thepregnancy until all of a sudden
it was like I was doubled overin pain.
And that was like a Tuesday andI had an appointment with my
doctor on Thursday and so Icalled and was like, can I
please go get Eurostat?
And they're like, yeah, wecan't advise that.
We can't advise that.

(04:25):
And I'm thinking like, oh, mygoodness, it's going to give the
baby flippers.
So I go in on Thursday and thedoctor prescribes basically the
prescription form of Eurostatand she's like, take this, it'll
turn your pee orange.
I'm like that's exactly what Iwas going to get.
Over the count.
You mean, I've been in pain fortwo days for no reason.

(04:47):
So that reminded me of the crapthat they gave to Rosemary about
lying to her about the painthat she was in.
Friends are saying like thisisn't normal, this isn't right,

(05:08):
really really stuck with me andalso seemed odd to me in a way,
because it was written by IraLevin, so written by a man and
then directed by Roman Polanski,who's not only a man but a
monster.
Anyway, that's like the majorthing that's in my head about
this film.
So, ryan, tell me, why is thisfilm important to you?
Why are we talking about ittoday?

Speaker 1 (05:29):
This is one of my favorite movies of all time and
it makes me feel like a reallybad feminist to say that, but
it's perfect.
I am really drawn to thedirection and the level of

(05:49):
detail in this movie and also Ithink this movie is incredibly
funny and I think that thegaslighting is so like
gobsmackingly awful that it'salmost entertaining to watch.
It's terrible, but I watchedthis for the first time when I

(06:12):
was in college and I was sick,and as soon as Ruth Gordon shows
up, as soon as Minnie Kastavitzshows up, she delights me.
I think it's one of the bestsupporting performances that has
ever existed.
She's like one of my favoriteactresses of all time.
I just was like why has no oneever talked about how funny this

(06:35):
movie is?
And I think in the early aughts, when I first moved to New York
, they were doing a screening ofit at the Film Forum and I was
so excited to get to see it inthe theater and it was
fascinating watching it, becauseI didn't realize quite how

(06:55):
campy it was and it didn'ttotally play that way when I was
watching it at home, but whenyou see it on the big screen and
you have a whole audience, theaudience was like roaring
laughing, and I will neverforget.
Isaac Mizrahi was sittingdirectly in front of me and just
laughing his ass off and I cannever think about this movie

(07:18):
without thinking about himlaughing.
He particularly Laura LouiseLaura Louise, I think, is one of
his favorites.
Oh, that's amazing.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
Yeah, so since Tracy, if she's seen it, it's only
bits and pieces and it's been 16years since I saw it.
Back to back, remind us of theplot, give us kind of a synopsis
.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yeah, I've seen it many times.
I saw it in a theater last yearI actually took my daughter to
see it, who's 13, because I waslike you should see my favorite
movie in a theater.
And then, kind of halfwaythrough, I was sitting there and
I was like, should I have donethis?
I don't know.
After the whole like devilrapes her scene, I just looked
over at her and I was like, areyou okay?

(08:03):
And she was like what justhappened?

Speaker 3 (08:13):
I want to show my kids the Big Lebowski eventually
, but that's one where I'm like,maybe when you're late high
school, for similar reasons.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah, you know, I just watched the Big Sleep
and I didn't realize what aparallel that is to the Big.
Lebowski.
Okay, so do you want me to walkyou through the movie?
So there is it kind of startswith this like shots of New York
City and Central Park andthere's this like neon pink very

(08:40):
girly script in the creditspink very girly script in the
credits and it kind ofeventually settles in on the
Dakota building, which is a verylegendary building in New York,
but in the movie it's playingthe Bramford and there is this
young couple with a real estateagent, rosemary, and Guy.
Guy is an actor which we hearrepeatedly throughout the movie.

(09:03):
He's been in Hamlet and theSandpiper and Luther and Nobody
Loves an Albatross and somecommercials.
It's like this thing thatRosemary sort of like repeatedly
refrains like a very excitedcheerleader and somehow, him
being an actor and her notworking, they can afford an
apartment in the Dakota, butit's, you know, the 1960s, so

(09:25):
slightly more believable.
The previous tenant had passedthe apartment that they're going
to look at.
She had been in a coma in ahospital.
She didn't die in the apartment, so all of her stuff is still
in the apartment and they go inand she's an herb gardener and
there's all these gardeningthings everywhere and Rosemary
sees a handwritten note on herdesk that says I can no longer

(09:46):
associate myself.
But the apartment is incredibleand Rosemary is just like
effusively in love with it andthe real estate agent said is
like looking around, he's likethat's odd and there was a
cabinet that had been moved inthe hallway and he's like I'm
pretty sure there's a closetbehind them and Guy helps him

(10:07):
move it and jokes like, oh, Isee now why she was in a coma.
And you know, the real estateagent's like, but she was 89
years old, like she couldn'thave moved it herself.
And Rosemary thinks it's weirdthat she covered up the closet
where, like, her vacuum and hertowels were.
And that night they have dinnerwith Hutch, their current
landlord, who's an older friend,and they mentioned the building

(10:29):
, the Bramford, and he's like,oh, that was the home to the
Trench Sisters and AdrianMarcado and he was a witch who
claimed to have conjured thedevil and he was attacked
outside and there had been ababy found in 1959 and wrapped
in newspaper in the basement andthey're just like, wow, that's

(10:52):
weird, but we still love theapartment so we'll be taking it.
They spend their first night inthe apartment.
They can hear this loud olderneighbor through the walls and
there's lots of shadows andRosemary goes and inspects the
closet that's been covered andnotes that there's shelves that
have been removed and they havelike a floor picnic on the first
night.

(11:12):
There's a lot of people likedoing things sitting on the
floor.
In this movie it's like arepeated motif.
And you know they're eatingdinner and she suggests that
they make love and then theyboth very awkwardly strip down
in just like a single shot wherethe two of them are just like
taking off their clothes in themost unsexy way possible and

(11:33):
then they sort of get togetherand it becomes a little bit more
sexy.
They make love in thisextremely creepy apartment and
Guy jokes that you know hethinks he hears the Trent
sisters.
And there's, you know then, amontage.
Rosemary's fixing up theapartment.
She rushes to see a commercialon the TV for Yamaha that Guy is
doing and she's doing laundryin the basement.

(11:55):
She sees this other woman doinglaundry and they get into
chatting.
She says that she's stayingwith the cast of Vets on the
seventh floor.
Terry mentions that theirapartment is next door and the
woman that used to live in theirapartment used to grow herbs
for Minnie, but now Minnie growsher own.
They hear a loud crash andTerry says she's just really

(12:18):
creeped out by the basement andmaybe they should coordinate and
go down together in the future.
And she shows off this goodluck charm that Mrs Castavette's
mini gave her and Rosemarychecks it out and she notes that
it has this like very funkysmell.
Terry says it has herbs and thenecklace.
I was watching this with mygirlfriend last night and she's

(12:41):
very, you know, sort of witchyand she was like that's a
witch's ball, like at the momentthat she held up the necklace.
It's also called a charm ball.
And Terry tells her that thecast of Vets have been amazing
to her.
They picked her up off thestreet she was a drug addict and
they took her in and at firstshe thought that they wanted her
for some weird sex thing butthey turned out to be real

(13:03):
grandparents.
And Rosemary says oh, it's niceto know that there's people
like that.
And later she and Guy are intheir bedroom and they hear
Minnie through the walls andthey start making love and all
of a sudden they hear this likereally creepy chanting coming
through the walls of a lot ofpeople.
And later they're coming homefrom being out and they notice

(13:26):
this crowd and police outsidethe building in a very creepy
scene because it takes placealmost in the exact same spot
where John Lennon was murdered,in the same building, like 10
years later.
They're sort of all walking upand Terry is dead on the
sidewalk, having jumped out ofthe seventh floor window and
there's blood everywhere.
Her necklace is still onsidewalk, having jumped out of
the seventh floor window andthere's blood everywhere.

(13:46):
Her necklace is still on butit's like kind of pulled away
from her head.
And the cast of vets comewalking up in this very
eccentric getup and they're toldthat Terry has jumped and
Minnie's like that's notpossible.
And Roman says she was prone todepression.
Minnie says I just don'tbelieve it.

(14:06):
And Rosemary introduces herselfand that's sort of it.
They move on with their livesand later on Rosemary and Guy
are sleeping.
Rosemary has a dream.
She sees the nuns that hauntedher childhood in Catholic school
and she hears Minnie's voicecoming out of the nuns that
haunted her childhood inCatholic school.
And she hears Minnie's voicecoming out of the nuns' voices.

(14:26):
There's a lot of repressedCatholic guilt in this.
The next day the doorbell ringsand in such an iconic shot we
see Minnie through the peepholeand Minnie comes in and is like
oh wow, you put the table thereand starts snooping around and
Rosemary tells her that they'replanning on having children but

(14:48):
she's not pregnant yet.
Minnie's going through thefurniture and asking how much
things cost and Rosemary tellsher that Guy's an actor and
Minnie insists that they gettogether for dinner.
She says I won't take no for ananswer and it's like and then?
And then she, you know, walksout the door and like picks up
Rosemary's mail and hands it andlike starts like looking
through it before handing it toher.

(15:11):
She's just one of thoseneighbors.
And Guy comes home later.
Rosemary hugs him and he patsher ass and he's upset.
He says that Donald Baumgartengot the part that he had wanted
in the play that would havegotten him noticed.
And Rosemary tells him that thecast of Vets have invited them

(15:33):
for dinner.
Guy's really reticent to go,says you know, oh, this old
couple like, if we do this,we'll never get rid of them.
They're right across the wall.
But he reluctantly agrees.
So they go into Minnie and RomanKastavet's apartment, which is
very old and baroque.

(15:54):
She keeps being like oh, you'rean actor, they're very
complimentary of his acting andshe says oh guy, I'll tell you,
I'll tell everyone, I knew youwhen.
And gives them a drink thatthey say is from Australia.
And Roman says you know, youname a place and I've been there
.
Go ahead, name a place anddinner goes well.
There's a reference to the factthat the Pope is going to be

(16:16):
visiting that Rosemary says andRoman disses the Pope and she
sort of reveals that she wasCatholic and it's just like this
very awkward moment.
And then Roman starts likereally sucking up to Guy about
his acting, says that he saw himin Luther and there was this
one thing that he moves and asksif he's up for any parts and

(16:39):
they sort of start thisconversation and Rosemary and
Minnie go do dishes together inthe kitchen while Guy and Roman
talk in the living room.
There's this amazing shot whereRosemary looks out from the
kitchen and we just see adoorway with no people but you
just see like cigarette smokedrifting from the sides of the

(17:02):
doorway and they leave cigarettesmoke drifting from the sides
of the doorway and they leavethere's.
There's so much about doorwaysin this and hallways and framing
in this movie that I actuallylike referenced a lot in my
movie lone wolves, but we'll goback to that later and guy seems
to have really liked them.
They leave, they're laughingabout it and they kind of laugh

(17:23):
about how bad the dinner was andthat all the dinner plates
didn't match.
But Guy says he's going to goback over the next night that
Roman's stories are reallyinteresting and Rosemary's like
you know why did they take alltheir pictures down?
Like they had hooks on thewalls and clean spaces, but
there were no pictures on thewall.
And the next day she's relaxingreading a book and Minnie rings

(17:48):
the bell and just kind of bargesin and introduces her friend,
laura Louise, who's this likevery eccentric older woman with
these very, very thick glasses,and Rosemary says she's not
feeling well, she has her period, and the both women just start
sitting there and likeimmediately like knitting or
embroidering or crocheting.
Minnie mentions that she has apresent for Rosemary and

(18:12):
Rosemary opens it and it's thesame necklace that Terry wore.
The diamond studded spherelocket has this like Celtic knot
weave pattern.
It's kind of like a circularlocket and she smells it and
Laura Louise is like oh, you'llget used to the smell, you know
it's tannis root.
And Minnie insists that sheputs it on.

(18:34):
Guy comes home, rosemary showsher present but then immediately
takes it off and Guy's likewhat, you're not going to wear
it?
Well, if you took it, you oughtto wear it.
And she just puts it away in adrawer.
The phone rings, guy answersand suddenly Donald Baumgarten
has gone blind and now Guy hasgotten the lead part in the play

(18:57):
.
That's going to make adifference and he's like well,
it's a hell of a way to get it.
And Guy says he wants to gotell Roman and Minnie and runs
off.
And Rosemary later is visitingHutch and she tells him the news
about Guy's part but she's verysad and upset because Guy's
very preoccupied.
He hasn't been paying attentionto her.

(19:18):
And Hutch mentions that heheard there was another suicide.
Rosemary's like oh, didn't Itell you?
And Rosemary comes home and Guyhas gotten her like a dozen
roses and he says he's been acreep and he apologized.
He's been really worried thatDonald Baumgarten is going to
regain his sight.
And he says let's have a baby.
The calendar and I figured outwhen we have to do it and it's

(19:52):
tonight.
And she's like overjoyed andit's very weird that he knows
that, especially in like 1965.
They make a fire in thefireplace and they have dinner
and it's supposed to be likethis, like sexy night at home
because they're going to make ababy and the cast of that's ring
the doorbell and guy goes andanswers it and she's like no,

(20:12):
don't let them in, don't letthem in.
He comes back in.
Many had just wanted to drop offthis chocolate mousse or her
famous chocolate mouse thatthat's what she calls it.
And she tries it and says, oh,it has this like chalky
undertaste.
And Guy's like downing his andhe's like what are you talking

(20:36):
about?
Just eat it, just eat it, it'sfine.
And he goes up to change therecord and she kind of scoops it
all into a napkin after takinglike a couple bites and shows
him that it's empty.
And then later, while she'scleaning the kitchen, she gets
really faint and dizzy.
Guy catches her and carries herinto bed, says oh, you've had

(21:00):
too much booze and you didn'teat enough.
And he puts her to bed and wehear this clock ticking and she
says you know, oh, we have tomake a baby, but we just need a
nap, I just need a nap.
And she's dreaming and suddenlyshe's on this like fancy yacht
and then she's like floating inthe water on a mattress and

(21:22):
they're back on the yacht andHutch becomes the captain of the
boat.
She wakes up and Guy is takingher clothes off and telling her
to go to sleep.
And now in the dream she'snaked on the boat and then she's
in a bikini and Hutch issuddenly down in the port and

(21:42):
they're saying he's not comingwith us because it's Catholics
only.
And then suddenly she's beinglifted up to the Sistine Chapel
ceiling and it's very unnervingand there's a lot of these like
shots, sort of scanning aroundthe Sistine Chapel ceiling and
she's walking.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
That whole dream sequence is so unnerving it's
easy to lose track.

Speaker 1 (22:03):
Unnerving.
It's so unnerving, okay.
So then, like Roman, they'reback on the boat and Roman is
warning that there's going to bea typhoon and she's walking
around below the boat naked andshe sees this room with a fire
and a mattress and she lays down.
And then, all of a sudden, allof the older people are there,

(22:24):
including Roman and Minnie, andthey're all naked and they're
chanting and Roman is paintingthese like red lines on her
chest and Guy is there and saidno, she's awake.
And Minnie says no, as long asshe ate the mouse, she's dead to
the world.
As long as she ate the mouse,she's dead to the world.
Terry is coming down the stairsin a white dress all of a sudden

(22:46):
and says you better have yourlegs tied down in case of
convulsions.
And then there's like men tyingdown her legs, like she's in a
mental hospital, and then shedreams that she's having sex
first with Guy, and then there'slike a devil hand and she looks
in his red eyes and she saysthis is no dream, this is really

(23:06):
happening.
And they cover her face.
And then the Pope comes andsays he heard she was mitten by
a mouse and Rosemary apologizesfor not being able to come see
him and he gives her his ring tokiss and it's the witch's ball
from her necklace.
So that's like this whole crazysequence.

(23:27):
And that was the point when mydaughter turned to me in the
theater and was like what justhappened?

Speaker 3 (23:35):
I think my husband did the same thing to me.

Speaker 2 (23:39):
I have definitely not seen this movie.
I would remember that it's sucha good movie.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Yeah, that sequence and the like, the this is no
dream, this is really happening.
And as long as she ate themouse like just yeah, live, rent
free in my head, Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (23:57):
Yeah, it's so vivid and real.
Oh, and also the eyes of thedevil are supposedly oh, I
should look up his name, Ishould awake and says you know,
it's after nine.
You got to get up and she has aterrible headache, she can't

(24:29):
remember anything.
And he says oh well, you knowyou passed out.
You can never have cocktailsand wine together anymore.
And she's naked and she has allthese like scratches all over
her and she's looking and she'slike's like what?
And before she can say anything, he's like oh, I know, I know,
don't say any, I I've alreadyfiled them down.

(24:51):
And he says you know, I didn'twant to miss baby night and his
nails were ragged and and it waskind of fun in a little
necrophiliac kind of way.
So basically he's telling herlike oh well, I raped you last
night because I didn't want tomiss baby night, you know.
And then they're like oh, it'sfine.

(25:12):
And uh, guy's a monster just,she's just, oh, absolutely, he's
like the king before you findout how much of a monster he is
he's an actor but he's like theking of gaslighting monster.
Rosemary is just like incrediblyconfused.
She says that she dreamt shewas being raped by someone
inhuman.

(25:32):
And he's like thanks a lot, youknow.
She's just really bothered andthat, like this all happened and
he was like well, I was loadedmyself, you know, and just
really tries to like totallybrush it off.
And you know, she returns thecups for the chocolate mouse to
Minnie.
Minnie, hilariously, is like oh, where are you going?

(25:53):
You go get me groceries.
She's like get me six eggs anda Sanka, which has nothing to do
with anything.
But I just found it reallyfunny.
Guy is back in the apartment,guy's practicing walking on
crutches for the role and she'slike you know, you haven't been
looking at me, like what's goingon?

(26:13):
You know you've been avoidingme and she's really bothered and
he says he's just, oh, you know, just preoccupied with the part
, don't worry about it.
And at breakfast, a couple ofdays later, she keeps looking at
the calendar and he is likenoticing and he says you were
supposed to get your period twodays ago.

(26:34):
You're two days late, which isjust so creepy that he knows
that.
And it's like not actuallymarked on the calendar and he
bets her a quarter that she'spregnant marked on the calendar.
And he bets her a quarter thatshe's pregnant and she goes to
see Dr Hill, who's played by avery young Charles Grodin and

(26:55):
with a very, really sleazymustache.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
It's like almost non-existent, but it's there,
Even for the 60s it's sleazy.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Even for the 60s.
It was like what is that?
Yeah, so she goes to see DrHill, who was like a
recommendation from a friend,her friend Elise, to get a blood
test.
And she gets a call when she'shome and she's told that she's
pregnant.
She's just so happy and it'sclear that like her whole life
has been sort of building up tothis moment, like this is like

(27:21):
the pinnacle of what she thoughtlife was going to be.
And you know, he says, you know, come see me next month and
let's get prenatal vitamins.
You know, the baby's June 28th.
We just need another blood testfor sugar, for blood sugar,
it's no big deal.
And he comes, guy, comes homeand she sort of greets him at
the door with her hand out witha quarter in it, and he's elated

(27:45):
and says let's make this a newbeginning.
She says let's make this a newbeginning with openness, that he
hasn't been open and his firstreaction is to say, oh, I want
to go tell the cast of us.
And she's like, okay, and theycome running in and he leaves,
they all come running back inand they're so excited and

(28:08):
they're just a lot and they sortof take over.
They insist that she goes toAbe Saperstein, who's one of the
finest OBs in the country.
Guy mentions he's even heard ofhim and Minnie goes into their
bedroom to use the phone to callAbe to make an appointment for
her the next morning.
And this is a moment that Ireally love because she's framed

(28:32):
.
There's this documentary calledVisions of Light about
cinematography.
It came out in like the late90s.
It's really fantastic and thecinematographer for this movie
is interviewed in it and I'm sosorry I need to look up his name
, but he talks about how, whenhe was framing that shot
specifically of when she goes inthe bedroom, that he set up the

(28:54):
shot so that she was likeperfectly framed within the
doorframe and Roman Plansky waslike oh, no, no, no, no, no, no
and like moved the shot so thatshe was partially covered.
We only see like about likehalf of her head and like her
shoulder and her back and notthe rest.
And the dp was like what areyou talking about?

(29:15):
And roman flansky was like,just trust me.
And then the dp talks aboutlater, when he went to the
premiere and he saw the film ina theater with an audience, that
at that moment, when she goesin the bedroom to make the phone
call, that every single personin the theater craned their head
to look around the doorframe tosee and listen in and the

(29:41):
cinematographer was just likemind blown at how genius that
was.
But there's so much of that inthis movie.
There's so much of like doorframes and like you see things
but you don't.
You see like partial images andyou're kind of like looking
around and searching.
You know you have that feelingfrom the film language just of

(30:04):
unease and like trying to figureit out as you're just watching
it anyway.
So she has an appointment thefollowing morning, uh, with abe
saperstein, and minnie can'twait to tell laura, louise,
rosemary's like, oh, please donot do that.
And at night rosemary's lyingin bed.
She's thinking of baby names.

(30:25):
She constantly is changing whather baby names are.
Throughout she's alwaysreferring to like little Andy or
Jenny or little Susan or little, you know, little Timmy.
She hears Minnie laughingthrough the door, through the
wall, and then she hears anambulance and it freaks her out
and she gets up and she decidesto put on the good luck charm
necklace that Minnie gave her.

(30:46):
And the next day she goes tosee Dr Saperstein, who's played
by Ralph Bellamy, who you justtalked about in your Pretty
Woman episode.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
And I was just.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
I just wrote an article about trading places, so
yeah, yeah, but Ralph Bellamywas also in His Girl Friday.
He's the fiancé.
That's like annoying, anyway.
So Dr Saperstein is taking heron as a patient tells her please
don't read books, don't listento your friends.

(31:19):
No two pregnancies are alike.
He tells her he doesn't wanther taking prenatal vitamins.
He wants her taking Minnie hasan herbarium and he's going to
prescribe these herbal drinksthat'll be really fresh, with
fresher than vitamins, that hewants Rosemary to drink every
day.
The next day Rosemary bringsher the drink.

(31:41):
She sort of I'm sorry.
Minnie brings Rosemary thedrink.
She sort of mentions that ithas like a raw egg and tannis
root in it.
Next day Rosemary comes home andreveals that she's gone to
Vidal Sassoon and she has thisreally chic haircut that's like
short and blonde and it's one ofmy favorite haircuts of all

(32:03):
time.
But absolutely everyone hatesit, including her husband.
When she first walked in he'slike what the hell did you do?
And then suddenly she says ohmy God, I have this pain.
And she goes back to DrSaperstein.
She tells him she was afraid itwas an ectopic pregnancy and he
berates her for reading books,says she's fine, she's fine,

(32:27):
it'll move on Like it'll be fine.
And later Rosemary and Guy areplaying Scrabble on the floor at
home.
The introduction of theScrabble game is very important
and she's in a lot of pain andshe just absolutely breaks down,
says she knows something iswrong.
She's looking really sickly.
She's like I feel awful andhe's like you look great.

(32:50):
It's the haircut that looksawful.
He says want to know the truth,that's the worst mistake you
ever made.
And she's like craving reallyrare meat, sometimes raw meat.
Hutch visits and he's reallyfreaked out by her appearance.
She's gotten really skinny,she's got black rings under her

(33:11):
eyes and she tells Hutch thatshe's pregnant and he asks her
who her OB is and she says DrSaperstein.
And he's like oh, he deliveredtwo of my daughter's babies.
So again it's like reassurance,everything's fine from people
that she knows.
But he's really concerned thatshe's lost too much weight.

(33:31):
But he says well, dr Sapersteinknows what he's talking about.
And the doorbell rings and Romanis there and he seems very,
very interested in who is insidethe apartment and Rosemary
invites him in.
She notices as he walks pasthim that his earlobes are

(33:54):
pierced, which is not so weirdnow, but I think you know in
1965 was very weird.
And they have a discussionabout the fresh herb drinks,
like in front of Hutch, andRosemary mentions the tannis
root and Hutch is very confusedand you could tell Roman is like
uncomfortable that Hutch ishearing about all this.

(34:16):
And Rosemary shows Hutch hernecklace and he is really
repulsed by the smell, says itdoesn't smell like a root but
more like a fungus.
Hutch is, oh, I have to look itup.
And Roman excuses himself.
And later they're sitting inthe kitchen, hutch and Rosemary,
and Rosemary mentions thatRoman has pierced ears and Hutch

(34:40):
says and piercing eyes.
And suddenly Guy comes likestorming into the apartment,
still in his stage makeup, andHutch says he's leaving.
Guy gets his coat and Hutch islike oh, I seem to have lost a
glove and he leaves.
And Rosemary's real upset, saysthat Hutch told her she looked

(35:03):
terrible and Guy just sort ofvery much dismisses it.
And later she's napping and thephone rings.
It's Hutch.
Guy brings her the phone andHutch asks her to meet him the
next day at the Time Lifebuilding.
He hasn't found his glove andas soon as she's off the phone
Guy's like what was that about?

(35:24):
What are you doing?
What's the plan?
And wants to know where they'remeeting and when.
And then suddenly he's like youknow what?
I'm craving ice cream.
And he runs out and she's justso sick in bed.
The next morning Rosemary stopsand sees Minnie and says she's
going out and she won't have herdrink that day and then she's
waiting on the street for Hutch,who's late.

(35:44):
She feels awful.
She sits down at one point andsays pain be gone, I will have
no more of thee.
And then she kind of laughs atherself and she calls Hutch's
apartment from a phone booth andshe's told that he's taken ill
and that he's in a deep coma inthe hospital.
And she is really distraughtand she catches her appearance

(36:06):
in the window reflection.
She's really horrified andMinnie just suddenly appears and
she insists on taking Rosemaryhome and Rosemary is just so, so
, so ill and they have a newyear's party for 1966 at the
castettes and she meets thislike this group of sort of older

(36:28):
eccentric weirdos basically,and at new year's roman toasts
and like to 1966, year one, androsemary is still in pain, she's
doubled over, she's craving rawmeat like she truly is having
the worst pregnancy ever and Ireally felt for her and related

(36:50):
to that part because I reallyhad a terrible pregnancy and she
decides that she's going tohave a party for their young
friends.
She says it's a very specialparty.
You have to be under 60 to getin.
And Guy is like is this a goodidea?
Have you checked with DrSaperstein?

(37:10):
Like why would she need tocheck with her OB to have a
party?
And Minnie comes in the day ofthe party and she sees to give
her the drink and she sees thesort of spread of food and
Minnie's like oh, I want to help.
And you know Rosemary kind ofpushes her off and Rosemary

(37:31):
refuses to drink Minnie's drink.
She ends up dumping it.
And at the party everyone islike congratulations, but like
you look like a piece of chalk,like make sure he feeds you
something.
What is happening?
And Guy is just very stressedout the whole party and is very

(38:10):
much keeping his eye on Rosemaryand what she's doing.
And every time she talks to afemale friend and he will
locking Guy out of the kitchenand sort of circling her and
being like what's happened?
They want her to go to anotherdoctor.
You know say pain is a warningthat something isn't right.
And she's like I won't have anabortion and they're like honey.
We're not talking about havingan abortion, like just chill out
Again, just Catholic guiltcoming like crazy yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
That scene was something that really stuck with
me the like locking themselvesin the kitchen and like this,
like group of women being likewhat is going on?

Speaker 1 (38:44):
What's?

Speaker 3 (38:45):
going on Like please rely on, like our you know
combined experience.
There was a point, like we'rejust saying get a second opinion
, that's all yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
So after the party she stands up to Guy and she
says that she's going to go seeDr Hill and that she's not
drinking Minnie's drink.
She hasn't drunk it in threedays and Guy gets really angry,
basically says like don't listento these bitches.
And that he doesn't want her togo to Dr Saperstein because or

(39:18):
he doesn't want her to go to DrHill because it's not fair to Dr
Saperstein, and she's like whatthe fuck?
And then all of a sudden shefreezes because the pain has
stopped and he is freaking out.
He starts interrogating herabout what was in the drink

(39:39):
she's been making for herself.
But she's just so happy shesays I feel it kicking, it's
alive, it's moving.
And then everything kind ofgoes great through the second
half of the pregnancy.
We see this montage.
She's like taking drinks forMinnie, she's setting up the
nursery, she's packing the bagfor the hospital and fast

(40:00):
forward.
And now she has kind of threeweeks left until she's due and
she gets a phone call that Hutchis dead and she takes a cab to
his funeral and ends up talkingto his daughters and his friend
Grace, and she gives Rosemary abook.
It says that he regainedconsciousness and thought it was

(40:21):
the next morning when he wasgoing to meet Rosemary and he
made the doctor promise to giveRosemary the book that was on
his desk.
Rosemary, and he made thedoctor promise to give Rosemary
the book that was on his desk.
And then, as she's like drivingaway, grace rolls down the
window from the car and yellsout oh, and I'm supposed to tell
you, apparently the name is ananagram.

(40:41):
And she goes home.
She puts on these like gigantic, fluffy blue slippers that just
felt so ridiculous.
Minnie rings the bell.
She gives Rosemary the drink,sees the book, she's very
inquisitive of it.
She's really inspecting thename on the package because it's
addressed, but she ends upleaving.
Rosemary opens the book.
It's called All of them Witches.

(41:02):
Hutch has underlined somethings.
He says in rituals they usethis fungus called devil's
pepper, which is spongy, with astrong odor, worn on charms, and
Adrian Marcato.
There's this black and whitepainting of him that really
resembles Roman slightly, butwith like a lot more hair and
younger.
And Marcato had been attackedby a mob outside of the Bramford

(41:26):
and she's like this isridiculous, there are no witches
, like not really.
And she sort of dismisses it.
But then she looks at the coverand thinks the name is an
anagram and she gets out herScrabble set game.
She puts out all of themwitches and mixes the letter up,
comes up with a, comes with thefall elf, shot lame witch, how

(41:50):
is hell fact me?
And she's like this is sostupid, like whatever, this is
dumb.
And she opens the book againand she sees that he's
underlined a caption that AdrianMarcato had a son named Stephen
.
And she puts Stephen Marcato inScrabble letters and rearranges
them into Roman castabette andGuy comes home and she is

(42:18):
freaked the fuck out and shetells Guy all about everything,
shows him the book and Guy justdismisses it and says well, no
wonder he changed his name.
He had a crazy dad, like thatCan you imagine.
And Rosemary is like they havecovenants, they use the blood of
babies in their rituals.
It's the most powerful.

(42:39):
And he takes the book away,puts it up on a high shelf.
He actually puts it above thislike pillar of the two Kinsey
books, the sexual behavior inthe human female and in the
human male, next to yes, I canthe story of Sammy Davis jr.
But like the books are tallerand they look like a pillar and
it's like they're using kind ofpsychological and sexual

(43:02):
manipulation and they're likesupporting this like main
witchcraft book.
You know, she goes to DrSaperstein.
She tells him about stevenmarcato and he's like I totally
understand, you don't have totake anything more from minnie.
And he says you know, maybethis will be good because
roman's actually dying.
He only has a couple monthsleft and he's been really

(43:23):
wanting to travel but theydidn't want to leave her because
she's about to have the baby.
So Saperstein will tell himthat they can leave and then
she'll feel better and it'll allbe fine.
And they sort of see them offand Rosemary is trying to find
the book.
Guy says he put it in thegarbage.
He didn't want her to worryherself and she's really upset

(43:45):
and out of it.
She kind of wanders into trafficand she's crossing the and out
of it.
She kind of wanders intotraffic and she's like crossing
the street.
She dumps her necklace in thesewer grate.
She goes to a used bookstore.
She gets another copy of thebook as well as a book on
witchcraft.
She reads about how a covencould blind, deafen, paralyze or
ultimately kill the chosenvictim.
In some cults it's believedthat a personal item of the

(44:08):
victim was necessary and thespell cannot be cast without a
possession of the victim.
And she goes home and she callsDonald Baumgarten who is voiced
uncredited, by Tony Curtis andI guess the phone call that
they're having.
He was actually on the phonecall and she didn't know it was
going to be Tony Curtis.

(44:28):
She just thought, oh, I'mtalking to Donald Baumgarten.
And she mentions a time thatGuy and Donald had met up and
that Guy has something ofDonald's and he's like, oh, you
mean my tie.
Donald says they traded tiesbut he gave it to him, so it's
fine.
Donald says they traded ties,but he gave it to him, so it's
fine.
And so she knows that they hada personal thing and she grabs

(44:54):
her hospital suitcase and sheleaves.
She goes to Dr Saperstein, she'swaiting, she insists that he
see her.
She's sweating.
It's like 94 degrees out, it'smiddle of June.
She's like looking at a coverof time magazine that says is
god dead?
The receptionist at thehospital, at the sorry, at the
doctor's office, is like, oh,you smell better today.

(45:15):
And she says, oh well, I waswearing tannis root on a
necklace but I threw it out.
And the receptionist says good,maybe the doctor will follow
your example.
And rosemary's like what?
Oh no, she asked to be excusedand she runs out.

(45:36):
She goes to this phone booth andit's this really cool shot.
That's like just one continuousshot while she's in this phone
booth for several minutes andshe's calling dr hill's office
and then she has to like fakeanother call to keep someone
else from coming into the phonebooth to use it.
And she keeps saying all ofthem, all of them together, all
of them witches.
And Dr Hill calls back.

(45:58):
She tells him what's going onand that she wants him to
deliver her baby.
She's like so desperate she hasto see him.
This very sort of creepy manappears behind her in the phone
booth with his back and it kindof looks like it could be Roman
Kastavet.
And she turns around and isjust like totally freaked out

(46:21):
and kind of runs out of thereand asks the cab driver to wait,
like while she's inside, andshe goes to see Dr Hill, tells
him everything, lays out all ofher evidence.
She's like I know this soundscrazy, but like I have the books
, I have the proof.
He asks to keep them.
He looks really interested.

(46:41):
She says you know, they have acoven and they want my baby.
And he's like, like itcertainly seems that way.
And she's relieved.
Until she tells him that herdoctor is Dr Saperstein and he's
like, oh, he's so respected.
But he says do you want to goto the hospital tonight?

(47:01):
Lie down and get some rest,I'll see what I can do.
And she's just like, sorelieved, says these are
unspeakable monsters.
And she has a dream that she'slike she has the baby and she's
surrounded by family.
And then dr hill opens the doorand saperstein and guy walk in
and say that they'll take her toa mental hospital if she

(47:23):
mentions witchcraft again.
And saperstein basically holdsher like a prisoner and like
leads her out to the car.
And the music does so much forthe tone of this movie, like
there'll just be a scene of likea person walking out to a car,
but the music's like, you know,like it's really it does a lot.

(47:44):
And then, coming in, she dropsa bunch of things from her bag
as a distraction to get awayfrom them and she jumps into the
elevator, runs out, gets insidethe apartment just as Guy is
coming out of the next elevator,and she's like go to hell, you
promised them to baby.
And she calls a friend from thebedroom.
While she's on the call we seea bunch of people over her

(48:09):
shoulder walking into, liketiptoeing into the apartment and
then suddenly Guy and like allof the coven come into the
bedroom and it's this reallyterrifying scene.
Dr Saperstein has a syringe andthey hold her down and she's
just like completely freakingout.
It's really horrifying.
And they inject her.
And then Dr Saperstein feelsher and says she's in labor and
she's just like completelyfreaking out.

(48:29):
It's really horrifying.
And they inject her.
And then Dr Saperstein feelsher and says she's in labor and
she's like somebody help me, youknow.
And then she's out and shewakes up and Guy tells her that
she had the baby.
It's a boy.
And she wakes up again.
She's just very out of it.
Laura Louise is reading next toher and Rosemary's like where's

(48:52):
my baby?
And then she goes and runs andgets Dr Abe Saperstein and he
comes in with Guy and they tellher that there were
complications but it won'tprevent her from having other
children.
But the baby died.
It was in the wrong positionand if they had been at a
hospital they could have donesomething about it, but she
wouldn't listen.
So basically like it's yourfault and says you know, they

(49:15):
can start again in a few months.
And she's like you're lying,you took the baby, you're
witches.
And they sedate her again.
And Guy comes back in and saysyou know.
When she wakes up and says, oh,you know, you have the
pre-partum crazies.
And he's laughing that shethought he and Dr Saperstein

(49:35):
were in the coven too.
And he says you know,everything's going to be amazing
from now on.
And she asks to see his leftshoulder to see if there's a
mark.
And he takes his shirt off,makes like a big joke out of it,
like he's like stripping forher.
There's nothing there.
She's watching TV later and shehears a baby's crying and the

(49:59):
lady from the coven who's thereis like what are you talking
about?
Like take your pill.
And Rosemary puts the bill inthe bed stand and Rosemary's
pumping.
Laura Louise takes the milk.
Rosemary's like well, what doyou do with it?
Laura Louise is like oh, wejust throw it away.
And Guy comes in and saysthere's new tenants above them

(50:20):
and they have a baby.
And she says oh, I heard itcrying.
And she goes to throw hermedicine spoon in the milk glass
and Laura Louise just likefreaks out.
It's like don't do that andRosemary's like why?
And she's like, oh, it's just alittle messy.
And the camera pans over and wesee Rosemary has put like a week
worth of pills in the bed standand she sneaks out, she opens

(50:45):
the closet that had been coveredand she takes out the shelves
and she walks forward and shefinds that the back of that
closet is the back of the closetin the castabette's apartment
and that she can see it throughthe keyhole.
Someone like there's like alight passing by the peephole on

(51:10):
her front door and realizesthat it's Guy coming in and she
runs in and she hides in thebaby nursery and at one point
she has to stop the cradle fromrocking, like with her knife.
She sort of like goes like thisshe sneaks into the cast of its
apartment with the knife.
She sees all of the art on thewall.
There's like a Goya paintingcalled the Witches and

(51:30):
everything's sort of very fieryand helly.
When she comes into the party,like no one seems to notice her.
But then Guy does and thensuddenly Laura Louise screams
and there's this Asian man there.
He asks her if she's the mother.
She sees this baby bassinet inthis black shroud with an upside

(51:51):
down cross.
She approaches it with a knifeand everyone is silent and
frozen watching her.
And she looks in the bassinetand she sees the baby and she's
like what have you done to itseyes?
And Roman says he has hisfather's eyes.
Satan is his father.
He begat a child with a mortalwoman.
His name is Adrian and he willoverthrow the mighty, wreak

(52:14):
vengeance.
Hail Satan, hail Adrian.
They're all chanting thissuddenly, all of these older
coven members around her, andMinnie is there.
She's in this crazy getup withthis blue eyeshadow.
She's like, in this crazy getupwith this like blue eyeshadow.
She's like he chose you out ofall the world.
He arranged things because hewanted you to be the mother of

(52:34):
his only living son.
She's like, just very matter offact, and Guy is just in the
background while she says that,looking incredibly guilty, and
she's like no, it can't be.
And they're like look at hisfeet, you know.
And we see these like devil,the devil eyes, the same devil
eyes that she saw while she wasbeing raped, superimposed.

(52:55):
For a moment.
We never actually see the baby.
She drops the knife and sitsdown and they're all like hail
satan.
The year is one.
God is done.
There's this tiny little momentwhere, like Minnie grabs the
knife out of the floor and justlike uses her finger to like fix
the floor where it had got in,and for some reason I love that
moment so much.

(53:16):
But it's like moments like that, it's like these little details
like that that I think are whatlike make this movie so
incredible.
And Roman is like help us out,like be a mother to your baby.
Minnie and Laura Louise are tooold, it's not right.
And Rosemary's like oh God, youknow.

(53:36):
And she's crying.
And Laura Louise is like oh,shut up with your oh gods, or
we'll kill you.
Milk or no milk.
And this very fancy man comes in, roman's like come view the
child Guy comes over and is likethey promised me that you
wouldn't be hurt and you haven'tbeen.
Not really, it's just the sameas if she had had a baby and she

(53:57):
lost it.
And he's like we're getting somuch richer.
And she just like hisses at himand spits in his face and the
baby starts crying and LauraLouise is rocking the cradle too
vigorously.
And Rosemary comes over andshe's like you're rocking him
too fast.
And Roman says let Rosemary rockhim and sit down, laura Louise.

(54:19):
And she protests and then sortof sticks her tongue out at
Rosemary as she walks away andRoman's like aren't you his
mother?
And she goes over to rock himand everyone sort of gathers
watching and smiling.
Like the Asian man at the partyis like taking pictures and
Rosemary is.
You can just see that she'slike she has that maternal

(54:42):
instincts, like she sees thebaby and she's just like sort of
falling in love with the baby.
And then we hear the like musicyou know if rosemary was
singing a lullaby and we pullout from the building and the
credits roll and that'srosemary's baby.

(55:05):
Um that's a ride it's likeincredibly, incredibly detailed,
but I think that there's somany details in this movie that
are so specific and every singlething is in there for a reason
and pays off, and I just thinkit's an incredibly amazing movie

(55:27):
that talks about as likehorribly unfeminist as it is,
it's also weirdly feministbecause it's like the horror is
the gaslighting, really, youknow, and you see it so clearly.
And I find so many things aboutthis movie delightful and I
know that it is directed by amonster and somewhat cursed and

(55:54):
really, really untrue to witches, like does not represent
witches and really kind ofkicked off the satanic panic in
the United States and everythingLike it has a terrible legacy,
yes, but I still like I watch itand I just think it's perfect.

Speaker 3 (56:12):
Let's talk a little bit about Roman Polanski and,
like Tracy and I both know, butjust very briefly, just for our
listeners, roman Polanski, hewas a Holocaust survivor.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
Oh, that's right, yes , and filmmaker in.
Czechoslovakia, I think, orpoland, and um came over.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
The reason he's a monster is he basically abducted
a.
She was 13, I believe I thinkshe was 14, 14, yeah, but a
child, yeah, and raped her.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Yeah, a year after this movie was made, he was
married.
Roman Plansky was married toSharon Tate.
She was eight months pregnantwith their child.
He was out of the country andshe was murdered by the Manson
family, the Manson family, yeah.
And that really fucked him up.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Like it does.
Yeah, Does not excuse in anyway?

Speaker 1 (57:10):
No, but I think he was in a very dark place and,
you know, within a couple, Ithink another year or two later,
he basically was like at aparty at Jack Nicholson's house
and had this like 14-year-oldmodel, like drugged her and
raped her, and he was convictedof statutory rape of like

(57:34):
several women and had to fleethe country I think in 1971, and
has lived in Europe as afugitive ever since since.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
So what I find really fascinating is, well, for one
thing, like I had forgotten thatPolanski was a Holocaust
survivor.
I assume that means he's Jewish.
Ira Levin is Jewish.
Who wrote Rosemary's Baby?

(58:16):
This is a very Catholic story,very Catholic story, yeah, very
Catholic story.
Yeah, experienced wheelhouse ofmen, these two men.
And then about the gaslightingthat women experience.
Now it's dialed up to 11because it's a horror, but the

(58:41):
gaslighting that womenexperience and the body horror
that was the thing that's partof why I so appreciated this
film is that I have known sinceI was a tiny, tiny child that I
wanted to be a mother Like therewas never a question in my mind
, and I was delighted to bepregnant, but I hated pregnancy
Like hated it.
I hated pregnancy so much Hatedit.

Speaker 1 (59:01):
And it was like it was truly the most miserable
experience of my life.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
Yeah, terrible.
When I was pregnant with mysecond, close to the end of it,
I said to my husband I was likeI cannot wait until I will never
be pregnant again.
And he's like, oh, wouldn't youwant a third?
And I was like no.
And he said well, what ifthey're all as awesome as our
first?
And I said that's adorable.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
No, so, but the body horror of pregnancy is what this

(59:51):
film captures so well.
It makes is the ways in which,like this is only underscoring
what you just said, emily, butthe ways in which the way that
we know that these people areevil is that they gaslight her
right, that they gaslight herRight and this is so.

(01:00:11):
This is not like we expect it tobe.
They use the blood of childrenin their rituals like some sort
of like blood libel, like Jewishblood libel, but what it
actually is is what happens towomen every day, over and over
and over again, in theirmarriages and in their doctor's
offices and like everywhere.
And so I think there'ssomething really, really
fascinating to me that what thismovie accuses Satanists of

(01:00:34):
doing, like the people that weremeant to imagine are the most
evil, is something that womenjust go through as the price of
being women.
And sorry, and then I'll letyou talk.
I got to get this out and youall pointed out the moment when
the other women sort of circleher to try and keep the
misinformation and thegaslighting out, and I think

(01:00:55):
there's something like, deeply,I do see the feminism in that,
in the actual antidote to theSatanism which is that which
would tell us we're nuts andlike punish us for speaking
truth is other women.

Speaker 3 (01:01:10):
To underscore what you're saying about how the true
evil is something that actuallyjust happens to women.
Rosemary's husband's name isGuy.
Yeah, yeah, that's intentional.

Speaker 1 (01:01:21):
This film does pass the Bechtel test.
No, clearly yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Yeah, and Rosemary, she has like incredible agency.
It's just that she is followinga script that she's been given.
Motherhood is the pinnacle ofher, of her existence, because
that's all she's been given tostrive for.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
Yeah, yeah.
And every time she tries toexpress her own agency, you know
, she goes to her own doctor,she decides to throw a party,
she cuts her hair, she does thethings that she wants to do
Everyone around her just likeshits on her and is like you
made a terrible decision.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
There's something, too, about that.
Ryan sort of really helped us tofocus on the cinematography of
this and the framing and likethe moment where the
cinematographer was surprised byPolanski's choice but the
effect of like the wholeaudience kind of craning their
neck to see around the doorframe, that also underscores the
half-truths and the sort offraming that is gaslighting

(01:02:27):
right, Like I think there'ssomething really beautiful about
the way one of the things thatwe sometimes talk about on Deep
Thoughts is the way that themedium can kind of help to
reinforce the message, and Ithink that you're pointing out
those about the doorways and theframing and even the moment
that you named where we'rewatching a conversation between
two people through a doorway butall we see is the smoke Right,

(01:02:49):
and I think there's there'ssomething about the actual
visuals that reinforce thesubtext and the text text of the
evil of this woman beingmanipulated the way that she is.
I think that's really lovely interms of like thinking about the
power of storytelling, not justas stories but as a film per se

(01:03:12):
even the the moment you pointedout where, where mini like
takes the knife out of the floorand then like fixes it.

Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
Fixes it with their finger, fixes it with their
finger.
That it like.
It also surprises me becauseit's it's director, because I'm
sure that was not in the IraLevin story, but that's a male
director recognizing the ways inwhich women pay attention to
the details of keeping a homenice, even in the midst of the

(01:03:41):
coven, welcoming their satanicoverworld.
Like you know, there's no excusefor not putting on a nice
spread, so like.
That's telling and I thinkthat's part of why, like,
polanski is a genius, he trulyis a genius.

(01:04:02):
That's what's so difficult.
That's similar like, becauseMia Farrow plays Rosemary and
she I don't know if they evergot married, but she and Woody
Allen had that, that longrelationship yeah, yeah, I mean,
there's just so much, so much,so much, so much.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
She was married to Frank Sinatra at the time.
He did not want her to leaveand go do this movie and he
served her with divorce papersduring the uh, filming like on
set, that's meta, yeah, and hewas like.
She was like 23, yeah, yeahgross.

Speaker 3 (01:04:42):
Of course, that's one of the things, that trying to
tease that out, and I wasthinking a little bit of Tracy
and I.
Both are big fans of Good Omensand so, with the recent
allegations against Neil Gaiman,and I'm thinking of that
because it is very clear, whileGood Omens was clearly mostly
inspired by the Omen, the Omenwouldn't have come about if it

(01:05:06):
weren't for Rosemary's Baby andso.
But there's there's so many artmakers, there's so many
geniuses, storytellers, creatingthis gorgeous, wonderful art
that expands the way we thinkabout storytelling.
They show, like the body horrorof drugging a woman and having

(01:05:32):
her raped by a monster he thenrecreated several years later
with an underage child yeah, Imean, I think the thing that I
like to tell myself about thismovie was that he made this
movie before that.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Well, and but like this movie happened before the
Manson murders, like it happenedbefore, you know, and maybe
that's like the excuse I like totell myself and Woody Allen,
and having to sort of reckonwith that over the last 25 years
has been very hard and veryeye-opening, and it's like what

(01:06:17):
do you do with the art ofmonstrous men, you know?

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
One of the things that I've been thinking about is
there was an essay and I'lllink to it in the show notes.
I wish I could remember whotalked about it, but it was a
writer talking about how men areallowed to be art monsters,
because even if a man is marriedwith children, his time to
create art is sacred, whereaswomen have to figure out how to

(01:06:43):
fit the art in.
And she used the term artmonster, and I think that that
is significant because, for onething, we do protect that time
Like oh, you are creative andtalented.
We need to protect that whichthen becomes.
We need to protect you, whichthen becomes you can do whatever
you want, and so that's how weget Woody Allen, that's how we

(01:07:06):
get Roman Polanski, that's howwe get Bill Cosby, that's how we
get Neil Gaiman, and so I thinkpart of it is that we have
these talented people withpenises and they are creating
this amazing art and because wehave empathy, you know, like oh,
he didn't really mean it thatway, we have this ability to let

(01:07:31):
them get away with stuff and wedon't give women the same
opportunity.
They are more likely to be shutdown the first time they put a
toe out of line.
So I definitely understandfeeling like a bad feminist for
being influenced by RowanPolanski, I think, in movie
quotes, and so every time in myhead I go.

Speaker 2 (01:07:53):
Equally creative and hilarious female comedians
didn't get to have specials thatwere aired in the 80s yeah,

(01:08:15):
yeah, we are running over timefor our regular episodes, sorry,
so, no, don't apologize, but Ido want to like.
I want to make sure if there'sany point that you wanted to
make, ryan, that you haven't yetmade.
Now is the time, and then I'mgoing to try and reflect back
some of the things that came outthrough your synopsis and

(01:08:36):
analysis.

Speaker 1 (01:08:37):
I think it's just that I think that this movie is
incredibly well-made and I thinkthat every single frame of it
is a conscious decision, and Iwas inspired so much by the
level of detail and also justkind of letting people do things

(01:09:01):
in the weird way that theywould do them.
I think is something that Ireally took from this, and I
took a lot of the movie I madetakes place in two hotel rooms
with an adjoining door.
The majority of the film takesplace in that, and so I did a
lot of studying of this movie tolook at how, on like one side

(01:09:22):
of a doorway, like how do youmake that interesting and
visually interesting and fun,and so I think if you watch my
film Lone Wolves, you would seea lot of the DNA of this film.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Cool, thank you.
Let me see if I can reflectback some of the things that I
heard here.
You started out, and we've comeback to a little bit, that the
fact that you love this filmmakes you feel like a bad
feminist.
I would push back on you onthat.
I think that, as someone whohas never seen it right, that
what I heard, actually there's alot to kind of lift up that is

(01:10:00):
feminist about this film theagency which rosemary is.
Given the fact that, as I namedalready, the fact that the true
evil is gaslighting right, it'slike the lived experience of
every single woman incontemporary America, certainly
in contemporary 1968 America,and that's the evil that's being

(01:10:23):
pointed to that Satan isresponsible for.
That feels like a feministthesis in my mind, especially
since, again, as I pointed outand we agreed, that the antidote
to that, the potential antidote, the place where she might have
escaped, was other womenliterally creating a circle
around her to protect her fromit.
The fact that the Satanists aresaying don't read books to a

(01:10:48):
woman, the fact that we putdon't bother your pretty head
with facts or the opinions ofother women, is something that
we, that this film puts in themouths of Satanists.
That is a feminist thing to do,and so I just want to push back
on you on on that.
I think it feels like you're abad feminist, because Roman

(01:11:09):
Polanski is such a problematichuman being, a monster, as my
sister called him, and that istrue, and also this film has
feminist things to say.
Both of those things can betrue.
It's also the case, as we named, kind of in passing, that,
though what I just said, what wehave been saying, is that the

(01:11:30):
actual hypothesis is that theevil is like removing her agency
.
It set off this sort of satanicpanic and the concerns about
something different than theeveryday, banal evil that every
single woman in America liveswith, and many men evil that

(01:11:50):
every single woman in Americalives with, and many men.

Speaker 3 (01:11:52):
Well, that's because we have never been able to make
a movie that shows a strongwoman, where we don't take the
wrong lesson from it.
Right, I watched Nightmare onElm Street, which was the
boogeyman for my childhood, andI never saw it, and so I never
realized how amazing NancyThompson was, because I was too
busy being scared of Freddie,because that's what everybody
remembered.

Speaker 1 (01:12:12):
Yeah same.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Something that we focused on, especially since
Ryan is a filmmaker herself, isthe ways in which the
cinematography and thedirectorial choices and which
every single frame you noted isa choice and the ways that those
actually like, support, bolster, like really help to tell the
story we're naming, which is notthe one that the general public

(01:12:36):
maybe took away, but iscertainly there, and we talked
about the sort of partial viewsand the framing and the through
doorways and the through likeand the ways in which the
metaphor holes and people'sexactly like like obscure vision
and partial vision and the, theways in which that is a
metaphor for what gaslighting isand what gaslighting does,

(01:12:57):
where we make someone believethat they're what they're seeing
is not what they're seeing byreframing it in some way, and
the ways that those things kindof help reinforce each other
through the medium of film.
This isn't a novel, right?
This is not a painting, it is afilm, and so it uses the tools
of filmmaking to do that.
And you pointed out thatspecific moment that surprised

(01:13:19):
the cinematographer because byputting it a little obscured,
polanski actually manipulatedthe entire audience to have a
specific reaction that he wantedthem to have.
So that's something that feltreally interesting and important
.
Now, some of the things that younamed in the very beginning,
when you were talking about whyyou care about this film, or
what's interesting about thisfilm, are the ways in which the

(01:13:40):
gaslighting is like so dialed upto 11 that it actually becomes
campy, becomes campy, and theways that and now this again
speaks to the medium when yousaw it on the big screen with a
whole audience, some of thosewere revealed differently than
when you watch it by yourself inyour living room.
I think that's something thatwe don't talk about very often
on deep thoughts, but, but it'ssomething to sort of really be

(01:14:01):
aware of as consumers of popculture is that the actual
modality of watching changes theexperience.
It's a different experiencewhen I see it on the big screen
with a whole theater full ofpeople, than when I watch it by
myself and like how that changes, do you?

Speaker 3 (01:14:18):
know, Tracy, I can watch really depressing movies
in the theater and I cannotwatch them at home for that very
reason.
That jibes Because it's anexperience when it's in the
theater, whereas I'm justinviting sadness into my house
watching it at home.

Speaker 1 (01:14:35):
Yeah, Like it's been very interesting for me to see
my film.
You work on a film for like ayear and a half at least before
anyone sees it, before you havethe opportunity to see it in the
theater, and I, you know, evenwhen you're editing, I always
try to.
Whenever I'm doing a watchdown,I always try to bring other
people in to watch it, becausejust having the experience of

(01:14:59):
being conscious of anotherperson watching it as well makes
me see things that I wouldn'tsee, you know, because you start
to just like you can't see thefilm anymore, and it's been such
an amazing experience seeing itin theaters with different
audiences while we're in ourfestival run right now.
We're talking to a distributorright now, so hopefully it'll be

(01:15:21):
out soon, but I don't thinkwe're going to get a theatrical
run because it just doesn't makemoney in any way anymore, which
is just so sad.

Speaker 3 (01:15:33):
So I've been kind of encouraging.
Unless you're a Marvel film,yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:15:36):
So I've just been kind of encouraging everyone.
I know like whenever it'splaying anywhere, I'm like just
go see it in the theater.
Please, just watch it with anaudience.
It's a comedy.

Speaker 2 (01:15:57):
It's meant to be seen with an audience Like it.
Just it enhances the experienceso much and the ways in which
our society, because of many,many things, including Emily
used the portmanteau.

Speaker 3 (01:16:12):
That was coined by Kate Mann in her book Down Girl.
Thank you Say it again Sympathy, yeah, it's sympathy for men.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Sympathy, sympathy Thank you, kate Mann and the
ways in which we sort of womenhave to carve out time and men
like we carve it out for them,and also I would name that as a
society.
We don't mind having lots ofmen who are good at doing a
thing, but women have to competefor sort of one spot and they
get sort of thrown off.

(01:16:40):
It becomes a rivalry, and wedon't do that to men, and so we
spent a little bit of timetalking about that, which I
wanted to just name again.

Speaker 3 (01:16:49):
Just one thing I wanted to mention.
Why Rosemary's Baby wasimportant to me was because of
how well it introduced me to theidea of pregnancy as body
horror, right, right, and was agateway for you to feminist
horror.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Yes, yes, Even though it was written and directed by
two men who are Jewish or Jewishdescent, and it's a very
Catholic themes, like someinteresting things.
And, oh, I also want to sayagain, not representative of
Wicca or witchcraft.

Speaker 1 (01:17:19):
No, not in any way.

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
In any way, like, not at all.
Like probably should use adifferent word.
Yeah, yeah.
So, ryan Cunningham, thank youso much for coming on.
Ryan is a filmmaker andproducer, and the name of your
film.
Again, it's called Lone Wolves,lone Wolves, lone Wolves, which
we will make sure that we linkto your TED Talk and to the

(01:17:41):
movie, so listeners who want tolearn more about you or Lone
Wolves can find it in our shownotes.
Thank you so much for coming onto the show.

Speaker 1 (01:17:48):
It was wonderful to have you.
Thank you so much for having me.
This was so fun and I love, Ilove this podcast.
I've been listening to it, Ireally enjoy it and as I said,
you know you very much.
Speak to the things that werevery important to me as a child.
Oh, that's so good to hear.
If you ever talk about BramStoker's Dracula, I really want
to be part of it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:10):
You're on, you're on, okay, but next time, next time,
next time.
I believe you're bringing mesome deep thoughts.

Speaker 3 (01:18:18):
I actually we have another guest.
We don't have guests that often.
We have back to back.
But now we have two in a row.
Yeah, my childhood friend, adamGwan, who is now an
off-Broadway composer of musicaltheater, will be bringing us
his deep thoughts.
I'm not sure what's on yet, butsomething that influenced him
as a baby composer.
Whatever it is, it's going tobe great.
Yeah, he was the one who Iembarrassed about Silence of the

(01:18:40):
Lambs way back in the day.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
All right, thanks, bye-bye.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and

(01:19:09):
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rosemary's Baby with Ryan Cunningham: Deep Thoughts About Gaslighting, Monstrous Men, and Satanism in Pop Culture