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We're releasing this episode (109) four days early in honor of Halloween!
There are certain RULES that one must abide by in order to successfully survive a horror movie.
In December 1996, teenaged Emily learned to love horror movies when she saw Wes Craven's Scream in the theater. Twice.
Unlike most pop culture specifically created for her demographic, Scream offered feminism, cultural commentary, badass women as protagonists and antagonists, a banger of a murder mystery, and plenty of comedy--all while simultaneously analyzing film tropes, leaning into them, and subverting them all at once. It's no wonder it lit Emily up so much she convinced her scaredy-cat big sister to go see the film, too.
But there's a reason Emily hadn't watched this film for nearly 25 years even though it had once been one of her favorites. The murder of peer while she was in college brought home to her the fact that pop culture makes violent death into entertainment. And despite the superb storytelling, rewatching Scream as a 46-year-old mother of teenagers only highlighted the tragedy behind the perfectly-constructed fiction.
But even with her misgivings about the film's violence, Emily is still grateful to director Wes Craven, screenwriter Kevin Williamson, and actor Neve Campbell for giving her Sidney Prescott as a pop culture role model for setting sexual boundaries. Sidney has complete bodily autonomy and agency, and neither the film nor any of the non-homicidal characters shame her for her sexual decisions--even when she trusts the wrong man. This was a message that millions of teenagers took in with the quips and scares without realizing it. Nice work, Scream team.
Listen in--but don't tell anyone that you'll be right back!
Content warning: Discussion of murder, serial killers, sexual violence, Harvey Weinstein, and other types of violence.
Mentioned in this episode
We're having a party, please come! A Zoom happy hour, Tue, 11/18, 7:30 ET / 6:30 CT. (THERE WILL BE PRESENTS!) So get ready to pour your favorite beverage, overthink some Thanksgiving-themed pop culture, laugh, and feel a little bit smarter.
It’s free, but please register at guygirlsmedia.com/happyhour, so we can share the zoom info with you! (Also, who doesn’t like knowing who’s coming to their party?)
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
She has bodily autonomy.
Sometimes that means feelingpressured or making a mistake or
like even enthusiastically doingthis.
Maybe that is what she wanted,and she finally feels like,
okay, I need to stop worryingabout being my mom and just be
the sexual being I want to be.
It's not clear, but it doesn'tmatter in terms of who she is as
(00:22):
a person, and that's phenomenal.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1996 Wes Craven film Screamwith my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:06):
So, Trace, I know that you'veseen this movie only because you
mentioned it last week, and I Idon't think I realized that
you'd seen it because of me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Yeah, you told me it was worth my screwing my courage
to the sticking place.
And so I did.
I mean, in 1996, I was I was incollege, so I obviously didn't
watch it with you, but yeah,I've seen it, but probably not
since then.
So what's in my head about it isI don't remember who the killer
(01:36):
or killers were.
I remember ghost face, like themask.
And I remember sort of beingcharmed by, like, we sometimes
will say, like, if people knewwhat genre of movie they were
in, they would make differentchoices.
And in Scream, they do know whatgenre of movie they're in and
sort of talk about it.
And there's I remember beingreally charmed by that.
I remember really liking themain character, the final, the
(01:59):
protagonist, final girl, Sydney,I guess.
I remember really, really likingher.
That's all I got, really.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
What's what's at stake?
So we'll well, we're talkingabout it because of Halloween.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So that's why today.
Right.
What's at stake is this is themovie that made me love horror.
We did an episode onPoltergeist, which is what made
me terrified of horror as asmall child.
This film came out in Decemberof '96.
I was 17.
And it was when I was so I was asenior in high school.
(02:35):
So I was the demographic for thefilm.
And it was when I was seeingpretty much one, maybe two
movies every weekend.
Like I I went to the movies.
I remember I went to see it withfriends.
Over winter break, I was talkingto a friend of mine and saying,
(02:55):
like, I really got to go see itagain.
And so I went to see it in thetheater twice within like a week
and a half.
And from there, I ended upbecoming kind of a horror
aficionado, which I I don'tthink I would have described
myself that way, but that's thatis what happened.
Now, I there are certain thingsI don't do in horror.
(03:18):
Like in the early 2000s, withlike Saw and things like that,
things went super gore heavy.
And this is a very gory movie.
I'm not gonna lie, this is verygory.
But when things went super goreheavy and was like
pornographically gory, I don'tdo that.
But these kinds of films wherethere's a bit of a mystery to
(03:39):
it, there are true scares to it,and there is humor to it.
And all of those I think of asclassic horror, Wes Craven style
horror, became one of myfavorite genres.
This is one of his movies.
This was Wes Craven's likereturn to the genre.
And it is, it's a phenomenalmovie.
(04:01):
So it's an important film to me.
Re-watching it, I realized Ihave not seen it in nearly 25
years.
And it was for a little whileone of my favorite movies.
And there's a very specificreason why I haven't re-watched
it, and it is something thatmade it very difficult to
re-watch.
When I was a senior in college,sometime around 2000, 2001, a
(04:25):
young woman from my school,which is very small,
disappeared.
She was missing for severalmonths.
It was known that she wasdepressed, and it was thought
that she had gone somewhere totake her own life.
On the day that we discoveredthat she had, in fact, been
murdered, I had not been feelingwell and had decided to take a
break from studying and wasgoing to watch a movie.
(04:47):
I ended up watching, I think,X-Files or something instead,
but I had Scream on VHS, this ishow long ago it was, and had
almost watched Scream.
And I was horrified that the daythat I found out a peer had been
murdered, I was consideringwatching a film where murder is
(05:09):
entertainment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
And just to be super, super clear, you thought
about watching Scream before youknew.
Before I knew Peer.
Yes.
So And so it was after the factthat you were sort of horrified
by murder as entertainment.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
You know, I'm not feeling well in my dorm, put on
a movie.
I had been thinking about it,but I was like, nah, I feel
like, you know, drooling overDavid DeCoveney instead.
And then we get thenotification, which I think was
via email where like they sentsomething out and, you know,
like here's counseling and allof that.
And I crying and feeling sick tomy stomach.
(05:43):
I haven't touched the moviesince.
And watching it now, now that Iam no longer the demographic of
the people of the people inperil.
I am the parents of the peoplein peril.
It's a very, very differentexperience.
Although it is just asphenomenal a movie.
(06:05):
It is a very odd experiencewatching this.
I have to say, I am so gratefulto this movie still, even as I
feel many kinds of ways aboutMurderous Entertainment.
And the movie even talks aboutthat in some ways.
But I am so grateful for givingme Sydney Prescott as a role
(06:29):
model.
I didn't get Nancy Thompsonbecause I was so afraid of
Freddie Krueger, but I gotSydney Prescott at a point when
I think it was important for meto have her.
And I really am hopeful that istrue of lots of other young
women like me.
That's what's at stake here.
Let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the destination,
like we say.
(06:50):
So this is actually a veryfeminist movie in a lot of ways.
So I'm gonna want to talk aboutthat.
It's very funny and like witty,and I don't mean that in like
the like bon mo.
I mean like witty in the waythat it is constructed, smart.
And so like it names horrortropes and deconstructs itself,
(07:13):
and it's just tight.
It's really, really well done.
And what's impressive about itis how it's well done in
multiple levels.
There is something veryprescient in it about angry
young men and kind of incelculture.
There is also something in itthat I think is prescient about
(07:37):
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan, who is a major
character, plays a majorcharacter in this.
Harvey and Bob Weinstein wereproducers of this film.
Bob was the lead producer, so,but Harvey Weinstein was
involved.
So all those are things that Ithink I'm gonna want to talk
about.
And then this movie also is partof the reason why I am a big
(07:58):
believer that comedy and horrorare two sides of the same coin.
So, so those are all things thatI'm gonna want to talk about.
Since it has been 30 years sinceyou saw the movie, I'm gonna
give you a reminder of whathappens.
I'm kind of gonna, I'm not gonnago blow by blow.
(08:20):
We get the setup of who thekiller is and what what's going
on with an introduction with themurder of Casey Becker, played
by Drew Barrymore.
Now, one of the things that wasvery fascinating about this, and
actually I think Barrymore waspart of the decision in doing
this, she was originally tappedto play Sidney Prescott, like
(08:40):
the main character.
And she was like, wouldn't it bemore interesting if I'm killed
off in the first 10 minutes?
So kind of like Marian Crane inPsycho.
Sorry, I kept thinking NormanBates, Bates Hotel, I couldn't
come over the name of the movie.
And they leaned into that wherewith the because she was a known
(09:02):
actress and they leaned into itwith all the advertising, we
thought she was going to be inthe film.
And so she with the fact thatshe dies in the first 10 minutes
is shocking and very, very smartfilmmaking.
So we see how the killeroperates.
He calls, he uses a voicechanger modulator.
(09:24):
Although I just found out todaythat's actually a guy.
That's an actual guy who hasthat voice, which is like, damn.
Holy crap.
So calls starts kind offlirtatious and acting like he's
calling with the wrong number,then starts being sadistic and
(09:47):
scaring her, ends up killing herboyfriend who he has like tied
up and kills her just before herparents get home.
We then meet Sydney Prescott,played by Nev Campbell.
Sydney Prescott's mother wasreportedly raped and murdered
about a year before.
Her mother, Maureen.
(10:08):
Her father is Neil.
Cotton Weary was put away forthat crime, is the name of the
man who was put away for thatcrime.
He claims that it was aconsensual sexual relationship.
And Sydney was the primarywitness.
She saw Cottonweary leaving witha bloodstained jacket, which we
(10:29):
later learn she saw someoneleaving with the jacket.
We claims that he left it behindand that someone else was
wearing it.
And there are rumors all aroundtown, this is a small town of
Woodsboro, uh California, thatMaureen had affairs left, right,
and center.
(10:50):
When we meet Sydney, her dad istelling her is it's late at
night.
Her dad is saying, like, hey,I'm going to be out of town
until Sunday.
There's cash on the kitchentable.
My flight leaves in the morning.
I'll be at the Hilton by theairport, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
And just then her boyfriendBilly Loomis, played by Skeet
(11:11):
Ulrich, climbs in the window.
I don't think it's a coincidencethat he looks a little bit like
Johnny Depp.
He's got a very similar kind oflook to Johnny Depp, who would
climb into Nancy Thompson'swindow in Friday the 13th.
Oh, the other one.
The Freddy Kruger movies.
(11:33):
Well, the first one.
They have a conversation wherehe talks about how they've been
together for two years.
For the first year, things arepretty hot and heavy, but since
her mother died, it's been kindof more PG or edited for
television.
So it's made clear that Sydneyhas some reasonable hangups.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
I mean, yeah, I think the girl's got a right to
them.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
So the other thing we learn is that the way that
her room is set up, if hercloset door is open, her her
door won't open.
The door in her bedroom won'topen.
But you know what?
I'm not doing this beat by beat,so it doesn't matter.
Next day at school, she findsout about Casey and her
boyfriend Steve's murder.
The police interview everyone.
We meet Sydney's best friendTatum Riley, who is played by
(12:23):
Rose McGowan.
We also meet Tatum's olderbrother, Dewey Riley, who is
deputy, he's played by DavidArquette, as kind of like
lovably incompetent.
He's deputy Dewey.
And we also, in addition to thefriend group, includes Tatum's
boyfriend Stu, played by MatthewLillard, and then their friend
(12:44):
Randy, who works at the and he'splayed by Jamie Kennedy.
Their friend Randy, JamieKennedy, who is movie obsessed,
he works at the video store.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
For younger listeners, you used to have to
go to a store to get movies torent a movie.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
You couldn't just pick it out on your on your
phone or your TV.
Yeah.
We meet all of them.
And we also meet the principal,Himbri, who is played by the
Fonz.
Hosh, what is that guy's name?
Wink Winkler.
Henry Winkler, thank you.
Played by Henry Winkler.
So we kind of see and hearpeople around talking about how
(13:25):
messed up Sydney is and how hermom was like a slut all around
town.
Like we hear people talkingabout her mother that way.
People use that word.
We also end up meeting GailWeathers, who is the reporter
for Top News, played by CourtneyCox.
She is kind of a bit of anopportunist of a journalist who
(13:48):
has written a book about themurder of Sydney's mother.
But she believes that CottonWherry is innocent and is
working to try to get him off ofdeath row, which she is doing
partially to save his life, butalso because it'll sell so many
books.
SPEAKER_03 (14:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
So Sydney is going to spend the night at Tatum's
house after, you know, learningabout the murders since her
dad's out of town, but she is athome, she doesn't drive, and so
she's taking the bus home andshe's waiting for Tatum to come
pick her up after practice.
And the ghost face killer comesand tries to attack her there at
(14:29):
her house.
Billy shows up as she's likefreaking out and a cell phone
falls out of his pocket.
Now, this is 96 when not everyteenager had a cell phone.
It was actually relativelyunusual for a teenager to have a
cell phone.
And so she freaks out and thinksthat he he is gonna face it.
Well, we don't have that nameyet, but yeah.
(14:49):
Okay.
So he is arrested.
She at the police station, theyare unable to reach her father.
And again, this is before, youknow, everyone had a cell phone.
Everybody has a call.
So he is he has not checked inat the hotel where you're
supposed to be.
And so when she gets to Tatum'shouse, there's a phone call for
(15:10):
her.
When she answers, it's thekiller calling again with the
voice.
So since Billy is in jail, itcan't be him.
The next day at school, she isattacked again by someone in the
bathroom.
And so Tatum says to her, like,you go where I go, I go where
you go.
And because of that attack, theyclose the school and they put
(15:32):
everyone on curfew.
And so after the school isclosed, the principal is killed,
and they all go to Stu's house.
He has a party.
His parents are not home becausehe throws a party with a killer
on the loose?
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
What the hell?
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
The their thinking is safety in numbers.
And then also Stu's parentsaren't home.
So So he wants people aroundhim.
Yeah, but also he he they'rethey're uh like they have beer
and and stuff, and they're like,these are 17, 18-year-olds.
Like they shouldn't be doingthis, but okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
So Tatum tells Stu, do not let Billy come over
because Sydney will be there andshe's still feeling really
uneasy around him.
He had spoken to her at schooland said, he said something
like, you know, like, Iunderstand that you're upset,
you have trauma about your mom,but like, you know, my mom
abandoned us and I got over it.
And she's like, this is not thesame thing at all.
(16:37):
Yeah.
So what a fucker.
Jesus.
So Gail Weather shows up at theparty, Deputy Dewey.
That's the Courtney Cox.
Courtney Cox character.
Deputy Dewey is there as well.
He's there to keep an eye on hissister and on Sydney.
He goes in and like takes a lookaround.
(16:59):
He lets the kids keep drinking,which is uh now he's supposed to
be 25, and these kids are like17 or 18.
So I don't know.
Anyway, Gail drops a camera inthe in the living room so she
can keep an eye on what's goingon in the uh the house.
And then she goes back out toher uh TV van where her uh
(17:21):
cameraman is, and the killingsbegin first.
And this is also when Randy goesthrough the rules, like don't
have sex because only virginslive to the end, don't drink or
do drugs, because it's the samething as the virgin rule, like
it's about moral purity andnever say I'll be right back.
(17:42):
And so Stu asks Tatum to go tothe garage to get him some more
beers.
She goes out there, she iscornered by someone wearing the
costume, she assumes it's Randyand is like just kind of like
knock it off.
And then he uh approaches with aknife.
(18:03):
She tries to get out of thegarage through a cat door, and
the killer like just puts hasthe door go up and that kills
her.
Oh, the a garage door, a catdoor in the garage.
Then many of the kids leave whenit actually is curfew because
it's 9 p.m.
But several, there there's stilllike about a you know, half a
(18:23):
dozen there.
When they get a phone call thatthe principal has been found
dead, hanging from thegoalposts.
And so everyone leaves exceptfor Randy.
And you know, they don't no oneknows that Tatum is dead.
At around that time, Billy comesin and Sydney, Stu suggests,
(18:45):
Billy, Sidney, why don't you goup to my parents' room so you
can talk?
And and Billy's like, real, realsubtle.
And Sidney's like, no, it'sokay, let's talk.
So while they're up there, theyhave a conversation.
She's like, I'm really sorrythat I accused you.
And he's like, No, I'm sorry, Ishouldn't have said that about
your mom and my mom, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(19:05):
She said, like, you can't choosethe movie you're in or choose
the genre of movie you're in.
I wish it could be a Meg Ryanmovie or maybe a good porno.
And then like her suggestionbeing like, Okay, I'm ready.
So they're having sex upstairs.
Randy is by himself downstairs.
We don't know where Stu is.
(19:26):
We see the killer comes in onSidney and Billy after they're
getting dressed again.
And she's asking him, like, youknow, who did you call when you
got the one call after gettingarrested?
Like, because that would be areally smart way to like throw
me off the scent if you were thekiller.
And he's like, Well, what do Ihave to do to prove that I'm not
the killer?
And then the guy comes, theghost face killer comes in and
(19:48):
stabs Billy.
She runs away.
She manages to get away by goingthrough the attic, basically
falling down, like onto the ontoa boat that's parked on the
driveway.
Driveway, thank you.
Sees Tatum, runs to the newsvan.
Meanwhile, Dewey and GailWeathers are like trying to
(20:09):
investigate a car that's beenfound, abandoned, and they
realize it's Neil Prescott'scar, Sydney's dad's.
The killer comes and killsKenny, the cameraman.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Oh, you hadn't seen the cameraman.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
And there's Sydney is like trying to get away.
The deputy is stabbed in theback on the porch.
Gail gets into the van anddiscovers that her cameraman is
on the roof, and then sheswerves to avoid Sydney and ends
up driving off the road and isknocked unconscious, might be,
(20:47):
or possibly dead.
Randy, who has been like knockedout by Gail because she's
freaked out, finds Sydney andshe doesn't trust him.
She doesn't she doesn't know whoto trust.
Stu shows up and so she knocks,she's like, fuck you both, and
locks them both outside and goesinside to call 911.
And Billy comes downstairs andshe's like, Oh my god, I thought
(21:08):
you were dead.
She now has, I think, thedeputy's gun.
I don't remember how she got it,but and he's like, Give me the
gun, it's okay, it's okay.
And he unlocks a door and letslets Randy.
Stu and Randy.
I think it's just Randy in andshoots him.
And that's when you discoverthat Billy is the killer.
And then he lets Stu in the backdoor, and it turns out that they
(21:29):
have been working together,which is why the killer has an
alibi because there's two ofthem.
Find out the Sidney's like, whyare you doing this?
And he's like, Well, you know,why do you need a motive?
But then turns out it's becauseher mother had slept with his
father, which is what led to hismother leaving.
(21:51):
And so Stu and Billy have a planthat they're going to stab each
other, so it looks like they'rethe only survivors, and they
have her father there, and theyhave cloned his phone so that he
will be the one who is blamedfor it.
Like he'll kill, and thenthey're going to have him shot
in the head and make it looklike a suicide, and so they'll
(22:12):
be the only survivors.
But Gail has had woken up, shetook the gun, and there's
tussles, things happen.
Ultimately, Sidney is able tosubdue, with the help of Randy
and Gail, subdue both of thekillers.
At the end, we have those threeare still standing, and actually
(22:35):
we see Dewey being loaded onto astretcher at the end, and Gail
is giving the story at the end,still all bloodied and
everything, without her originalcameraman.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Randy got shot just in the shoulder.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Okay.
Yeah.
Nobody's a good shot here.
Okay.
Except for Sydney, because atthe end they're looking over
Billy, who nearly like he'sgotten up several times, and
they're the three of them arestanding over Billy, and Randy
says, This in a movie, this iswhere the killer would come up
for one final scare, and likehis eyes open, and Sydney shoots
him in the forehead, and she'slike, Not in my movie.
(23:10):
Wow.
Okay.
So I was trying to do blow byblow.
It's hard.
Where do you want to start?
Let me start with like what thismovie is known for.
That's the way it names hertropes and the way that it
subverts them by naming themwhile at the same time using
them and what it does so wellwith that.
(23:32):
Like Kevin Williamson is justbrilliant, this author.
He's a screenwriter.
Yeah.
He wrote the script and WesCraven turned it down several
times.
He wanted Wes Craven to direct,and he turned it down several
times, and then finally, like,was like, no, this is really
good.
I'm gonna do this.
And there was, there'sdefinitely some collaboration
within there.
(23:53):
But it's a like it's a reallymasterful mystery, which is part
of what I love about it becauseI like mysteries.
Like the first time I saw it, Ihad absolutely no idea who'd
done it.
Whereas, like, and you know, Iwas 17, so who knows if I saw it
for the first time now, if I'dhave I'm such an avid consumer
(24:14):
of mysteries, it's hard tosurprise me.
But even at 17, you were alreadyin the I was already an avid
consumer of mysteries.
And they do a lot of things tolike, they give you red
herrings.
So for instance, when Sydney isattacked in the bathroom at
school, she's in the bathroomalone and she's like looking
under the stalls because she'sbecause they're going sit in a
(24:36):
way that she's like, Am Iactually hearing that or not?
And then a feet come down fromthe bath from the toilet, and
they're wearing like these likereally like not Doc Martin's,
but like work boots, and thenwith jeans, and then the robe
from the costume like kind ofcomes down.
And then in the next scene, yousee the chief of police smoking
(25:01):
a cigarette, and Dewey's like, Ithought you quit.
He's like, I did, but he'soverwhelmed.
And then when he he stubs outthe cigarette, you see he's
wearing the same kind of workboots.
So, like those kinds of likelittle misdirections, and I have
no idea if that was written intothe script, if that was Wes
Craven or what, but justbrilliant.
Those are so good because theykeep you off balance at every
(25:25):
moment in terms of the mysteryaspect of it.
Cause like prior to that, like,oh no, I don't what the sheriff
be doing with that?
But then, like, right, whywouldn't it be?
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
You know?
Yeah.
And why did they show us theboots if not?
Right.
So even the way that you namedit, like Sydney says, like, who
did you call with your like andthen they so she's right.
But then immediately it'scountered by the killer stabbing
Billy.
So yeah, yeah.
I hear that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So like it's just a it's a this is a gorgeously
written story.
And some of it is like KevinWilliamson.
The majority of is KevinWilliamson.
And then you have Wes Cravenbringing his just incredible
direction to it.
And then you have things likeDrew Barrymore being like, kill
(26:18):
me off in the first 10 minutes.
That it all keeps you offbalance.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Which is kind of meta, like doing that with the
actor.
Because you think, especially ifthey advertise that Barrymore
was in it, then you think thatcharacter's gonna have plot
armor.
So to subvert that immediately,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
And so that is why I fell in love with horror,
because it was like I didn'treally do horror.
This introduced me to all of thehorror tropes.
The fact that I didn't knowthem, subverted them while also
leaning into them.
Even like the the like in amovie, he'd wake up one last
(26:58):
time and he does, but hedoesn't.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Uh-huh.
It's also the case that like theway you're naming being kept off
balance, it was challengingintellectuals in the best way.
In a way that one doesn't, ifone doesn't know horror genre,
one doesn't expect, right?
I kind of expect to just bescared.
Yes.
And that's it.
But so to have the scareactually be paired with this
(27:25):
sort of intellectual challengeis titillating for smarty pants
like us.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
Yeah.
And the fact that so one of myfavorite moments, the first time
Sydney is called, she's at homealone.
She'd been asleep.
She wakes up, like she fellasleep after school, and she
wakes up.
Tatum has called saying, like,hey, because Tatum was gonna
supposed to pick her up at 7:15.
And she's like, Hey, practiceran long.
I'm on my way.
And then she hangs up, and thenthe phone immediately rings
(27:54):
after and she thinks it's Tatumcalling right back.
And she's like, just get here,don't worry about it.
The killer is talking to her anddoing the like kind of
flirtatious kind of thing.
He starts by saying, like, I'mon your front porch right now.
And so she's like, All right,I'm calling your bluff, because
she like looks out and there'snobody out there.
And so she goes out.
That's one of the things that'struly frightening about the
(28:16):
first 10 minutes with DrewBarrymore.
When he's flirtatious, he'ssaying, like, I what's your
name?
And she, you know, you stillhaven't told me your name.
And he she's like, Why do youwant to know my name?
And he's like, Well, I just wantto know who I'm looking at,
which freaks her out.
And then he later on calls herblondie because she's blonde and
and so like, oh my god, he cansee me.
So she goes out onto Sydney whenshe she's calling the bluff, she
(28:39):
goes onto the porch, she's like,You can see me right now.
I'm like, All right, what am Idoing?
And she sticks her finger up hernose.
What am I doing?
Tell me what I'm doing.
And part of the reason why Ilove that moment so much is it's
just a it feels like like it'sright after she says, I don't
like horror movies because it'sa big breasted bubblehead who's
(29:05):
going up the stairs when sheshould be going out the front
door.
You know, what's the point?
She is like pushing back againstthese tropes, and that is such a
funny way to do it.
Like, you know, like, oh, youthink you say you can see me?
Tell me what I'm doing rightnow, and I'll believe you.
And so and she does somethinglike this, you know, yeah,
(29:27):
absurd and and yeah and like notladylike and gross and not sexy,
and not like because it would beeasy to be like, you know,
middle finger, because thatwould be an easy one to guess.
Right.
So like it it's spitting in theface of the expectations of like
(29:52):
the low expectations of teenagegirls.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Yes, and also the person who started.
Trying to menace her, literallyin this case.
Like at the just the surfacelevel, it's spitting in the face
of the person trying to menaceher.
And at the meta level, it'sabout, yes, I see that.
That's really nice.
Yes.
So I talk to me like while we'rehere with spitting in the face
of people who would diminishteenage girls.
(30:19):
You named in your postcard, younamed that this is a very
feminist movie.
Explain to me what you mean bythat.
So Sydney's a badass.
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Sydney has very specific boundaries with her
boyfriend.
So when he comes to see her atthe beginning, and he's like,
you know, we were hot and heavy,and then your mom died, and now
we're like edited for TV.
And she's like, Did you comeover for something specific?
And he's like, No, no, no, Iwould never, I would never
wouldn't dream of violating yourunderwear rule.
(30:50):
So like, she's got a rule.
And he says all the rightthings.
And this gives a I I feel likethis gives a very reasonable
look at what it looks like forquote unquote nice guys to push
the boundaries.
(31:11):
In our very first episode, Italked about how in Twilight, if
that's a chastity parable, itdoesn't actually tell girls how
to handle when they're beingpressured.
Whereas this, I feel like itdoes.
Because she it's also it likeit's tough and it's realistic.
(31:32):
But she has this rule.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
He claims to be respecting it, and yet he keeps
pushing and keeps acting likeit's like it he says, I won't
violate your underwear rulewhile he's sticking his hands
down underwear.
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
Well, not quite, but he's not literally, but he's
he's he's pushing theboundaries.
He's tap dancing on her on herboundary line.
And she stops him.
She says, No, stop, get out.
And we know her father is in thenext room and he had heard her,
like, when she was surprisedwhen he came in the window, he'd
(32:12):
heard her like go.
And so we know that she has atthis moment, she has a way out
of this.
Right.
So she can call her back.
She can call her back up.
But as he's leaving, she says,like, look, I understand that
you're frustrated, and how abouta like a PG 13 relationship?
And so she flashes him.
(32:34):
And so it's uncle, like as a46-year-old woman watching this,
it's harder to see if that islike, does she actually want
that or is that want to?
As a 17-year-old watching it, Isaw that as like I kind of want
to push my own boundaries alittle bit too.
She does end up sleeping withBilly.
(32:56):
She has this lovely conversationwith Tatum.
Rose McGowan's Tatum is myfavorite character.
And I hate that she dies in thismovie, and always have, because
she very gently says, Is itpossible that you were wrong
about your mom?
There have been these rumorsabout her having affairs.
(33:18):
And Sydney says, like, do youbelieve them?
And the way Tatum says is like,well, you you hear that Richard
Gere gerbil rumor so many times,and you start to wonder.
And it's very gentle, and thenTate and Sidney is like a little
bit upset, and Tatum's like, I'msorry I mentioned it.
And they're clearly friends.
(33:40):
And Sidney says, like, well, ifthat's the case, then there's a
killer still at loose, and I waswrong, and blah, blah, blah.
And Tatum's like, that's that isnot on you.
That's not on you to worryabout.
And they are later grow groceryshopping for the for the party.
Sorry, did so did Billy killSydney's mom?
Billy killed Sydney's mom.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yuck.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Sorry.
Okay.
They're grocery shopping for theparty.
And Sidney says, Well, like, Ifeel like Billy does have a
point, you know, because of mypost-traumatic stress, like I'm
like sexually anorexic.
Tatum says, You are too good forBilly and his penis.
Yeah.
Like, that is nothing to do withanything.
And so she ends up telling,Sydney ends up telling Billy,
(34:23):
like, I'm afraid I'm gonna turnout just like my mom.
And that's part of the reasonwhy I'm like nervous about
having sex.
So it is unclear to me, watchingthis as an adult, if Sydney's
decision to sleep with Billy isreally what Sydney wants.
(34:46):
It's unclear.
And I'm not gonna say it doesn'tmatter, but because it does.
But what I absolutely adoreabout this film is that Stu and
Billy try to shame her for it.
Because when they are menacingher and telling her, like, you
know, they're doing the villainplan thing and all of that, you
(35:08):
know, this is what happened,this is what to expect, blah,
blah, blah.
She says, fuck you.
And Billy says, No, we alreadyplayed that game.
And Stu says, Yeah, you gave itup.
That means you have to die.
And that doesn't phase her atall.
And it is clear that from themovie, like the movie makes it
(35:34):
clear, she may have made amistake in trusting Billy with
that intimacy.
But that does not in any waydetract from who she is as a
badass, as a good person, asworthy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
It's interesting that that is that we have Randy
sort of say the rules, and oneof the rules is not to have sex,
right?
So but all of the rules end upgetting broken in this movie.
So it's interesting that weactually like get it explicitly.
Yes.
And then the bad guys try toreiterate the rules, but they're
(36:14):
not writing the rules in thismovie.
Sydney's writing the rules inthis movie.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, she even says it, not inmy movie.
Right.
Like, so there's like thisinteresting sort of meta
commentary that's sort ofsaying, like, yeah, this is a
horror movie, but Sydney'swriting the rules.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
So, and I just want to reiterate how grateful I am
to Kevin Williamson and WesCraven for giving me that
framework with Sydney.
Like, there is no shamewhatsoever for having made that
mistake.
It does not detract from her inany way, shape, or form.
This is not like the one falsenote that I had, because I so
(36:56):
enjoyed Nightmare on Elm Street,but the one false note was the
fact that Tina seemed to be likedeserve to die because she had
sex, which I think West Cravengrew from.
You know, this is 12 yearslater.
And this is making it clear.
No, absolutely not.
This is she has bodily autonomy.
Sometimes that means feelingpressured or making a mistake or
(37:18):
like even enthusiastically doingthis.
Maybe, maybe that is what shewanted, and she finally feels
like, okay, I need to stopworrying about being my mom and
just be the sexual being I wantto be.
It's not clear.
But it doesn't matter in termsof who she is as a person, and
that's phenomenal.
(37:38):
That is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
So I think I just named, you know, that this movie
that through Randy, we hear likethe name, like we name the rules
of horror movies and then webreak them.
So I you before we hit record,you were telling me about sort
of this movie and like RogerEbert's take on the
deconstruction.
Can you like do that for ourlisteners a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
So so the movie, the way that Roger Ebert describes
it, and I'll I'll include hisreview, his contemporaneous
review in the show notes, ishe's like, very rarely in movies
do you have characters who go tothe movies.
You know, sometimes you'll havecharacters who go to the movies,
but these characters knowmovies.
And so like they name the tropesand they deconstruct them, and
(38:21):
not in an academic way, but in ahow to survive this way.
And he described it as like thismovie deconstructs itself in the
it like a self-heating can ofsoup.
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
I don't remember that as a phenomenon, but you
assure me that that was a thingin the 90s.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
And that is like that is part of what's going on
there.
This film is self-aware andwinking at the audience in some
ways, but also not.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
It's aware of what it is, but it doesn't actually
ever break the fourth wall.
No, it never breaks the fourthwall.
Which I think that's that's sortof what's interesting.
Because I I love fourth wallbreaking.
I love it.
I it delights me.
This is a different sort ofself-awareness without actually
ever breaking the fourth wall.
So we are in on something andcan delight in the way that
(39:18):
Randy like knows what genrethey're in, but then have Sydney
completely subvert it.
Like there's something like it'sakin to that, but actually, but
a different, it's a differentrealm of sort of delight at that
subversion that's not fourthwall breaking, but is sort of
(39:39):
awareness of what genre we'rein, you know, or awareness of
the like even the way that thatfinal moment in the movies, he'd
wake up for one final scare andhe does, but then she kills him
immediately and says out loud,not in my movie.
I wish I want a word for thatself-awareness, that like meta
(39:59):
commentary, because it's notfourth wall breaking, but it's
like adjacent.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
Well, and what I find really interesting is that
I feel like the movie, if youare willing to be self-aware as
an audience member, is alsoasking you to think about what
you're doing.
Yeah.
Which is why I haven't seen itin 25 years.
(40:23):
So since Gail Weathers is judgedby the movie for profiting off
of murder, that kind of for theintrospective viewer is going to
get you thinking, like, well,what am I doing?
I'm watching it forentertainment.
(40:45):
Right.
Not even profit.
I'm not I'm not e it's not evenprofit, and it's not even like
journalism.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Right.
It's just for fun.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
It's just for fun.
There is something that I thinkis really interesting because
this came out in '96.
It was right in the midst of thelike violent video games,
violent movies causes kids to beviolent.
Right.
Even though it was beforeColumbine and the first the
beginning of mass shootings inschools, which is when, you
(41:13):
know, like that was like when wewere really hammered home, like,
oh, it's Marilyn Manson, it'sviolent video games.
But there were we were alreadysaying it was violent, violent
movies.
Sydney, when she's confrontingStu and Billy, says she's what
says to them, because they'rethey keep referencing movies,
she says to them, You've watchedtoo many movies.
And Billy says, movies don'tmake people killers.
(41:39):
Movies make killers morecreative.
There's like also that kind ofpushback against that idea that
like it's the film industry,it's the entertainment that is
causing the violence.
So that's also interestingbecause it's like, okay, well,
this is in some ways a safeoutlet for uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
Whatever that is.
Whatever that is.
Yeah.
There are two things that comeup for me in terms of that, what
you just said.
One is we've talked aboutbefore, and you named comedy and
horror as being two sides of thesame coin.
The other actually is themeta-meta commentary about
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan.
(42:25):
Yeah.
So I want to make sure we couldcover both.
Let's do comedy and horror firstand then go.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
So apparently, this film, they had to fight the MPAA
to get an R rating.
They apparently cut instead oflike instead of like NC17s.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Apparently, like they they cut quite a bit of
gore already and they keptcoming back.
Bob Weinstein finally got theMPAA to agree to it when they
had wanted to like cut even moregore, when he told them, look at
this as a comedy instead of ahorror.
And then they said, okay, ourrating is fine.
(43:06):
Huh.
Which, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Weird.
What do you think that's about?
Like, unpack that for me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
Now, I think some of that has to do with the fact
that there is a sense thathorror needs to be moralistic in
some way.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
And comedy does not.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Comedy does not.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
If you have that kind of gore, there has to be a
And the moral of the story is ahorror, if it's gonna have that
much gore, has to like there hasto be equal darkness and light
for horror for the NPAA, maybe.
I think that's so if it's gonnabe gory, there has to be some
sort of moralistic lesson.
Yeah.
Whereas comedy can just becomecomedy can just be, yeah.
(43:49):
It doesn't need to be a socialcommentary.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
I think that is what happened.
I think I mean I buy it.
I'll buy it.
I'll buy it.
Now, the thing is, like I havelong said I think comedy and
horror are two sides of the samecoin.
Now, the essence of horror istragedy.
The essence of comedy istragedy.
Like that they will talk aboutcomedy is tragedy plus time.
As much even as a 17-year-old,as much as I delighted in this
(44:14):
film, it's also tragic.
You know, a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
There's a high body count.
There's a huge body count andthe psychological trauma of
Sydney, who not only lost hermother, but then it ended up
being her boyfriend who did it,who then tried to like that is
that's just trauma on top oftrauma.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yes, exactly.
Now, part of the reason why Isay, like, so that's part of why
I say they're two sides of thesame coin, is because they they
are both a way of dealing withtrauma.
They're a way of dealing withtragedy.
The other reason is becausethere is a kind of like laughter
and like that kind of screamscare response, scare response
(44:57):
are both they feel similar inthe physiological similarity.
SPEAKER_00 (45:03):
I agree.
I agree.
There's also a way like like wetalk about comedy as being sort
of subverting expectations.
And that scare is also asubvert, like, even if you're
expecting it, that like a jumpscare or whatever is a
subversion of expectations.
It's a it's an interruption.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
And so, you know, the best horror is funny because
you can't help but be funnybecause there is They're
adjacent in the body.
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
Yeah.
In the body and and and in thesort of platonic ideal.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
This film leaned into it.
It leaned into the humor.
And some of that has to do withthe screenwriting, some of it
has to do with the actors.
So Matthew Lillard in particularis he That's Randy?
Uh no, he's uh Stu.
His delivery is like this kindof manic.
Even watching it this time,where I had a very hard time
watching it.
There is a line that made melaugh so hard, even though it is
(46:00):
awful.
So after Sydney has confrontedthem, she calls using her
father's phone and the the voicemodulator.
It's Stu on the phone who andhe's bleeding and not doing
well.
And she she says to him, like,So we know, we know Billy's
doing this because he's a mama'sboy.
What's your reason when youdon't have a motive?
(46:23):
He goes, peer pressure.
I'm just too sensitive.
And like it's so funny, even inthis like horrific moment.
Yeah.
And like I like, I'd forgottenabout that, and I laughed.
And like I remember reallyliking his performance as a kid.
(46:44):
You know, yeah.
Even though it's the kind oflike charming blowhard.
SPEAKER_03 (46:49):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Yeah.
He's that kind of like manic,charming blowhard.
And that actually, like, I dowant to get a little bit into
this film, it is a little bitprescient about like Inseldom,
because that's not exactlywhat's going on with Billy and
Stu.
But we find out at one pointthat Stu had dated Casey, Drew
Barrymore's character, and thatshe dumped him for her
(47:14):
boyfriend.
And so there's a motive therefor that first killing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
For that very first murder.
There's also, even if it's notsort of about in involuntary
celibacy, there is sort of ajust deep control of women's
sexuality.
Not just Sidney's, but hermother's.
Yes.
And entitlement.
I mean, even like naming therating, like, why are you
(47:39):
entitled to an X-rated film withyour girlfriend?
That's not a thing that you justget.
Yeah.
You know, there are two peoplehere and like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:48):
Yeah.
I found Billy like I wish again,I wish I could watch this for
the first time as an adult, justto see.
Like, I found him greasy andawful.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
Yeah, just your description is reprehensible.
I haven't seen nothing endearingabout him whatsoever.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
I cannot remember.
If you found him charming.
If I yeah.
I just can't remember.
I can't remember how I saw himthe first time I saw it.
And then and since then, everytime I've seen it, I know he's
the killer.
So like I just I don't know.
Right.
So it's very hard to say.
I do want to, like, we mentionedlike just the meta commentary of
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan.
(48:28):
Like it's known that he rapedher.
Oh god, yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:31):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
And then ruined her career.
Because she didn't.
Because she would, she wouldn'tshut up about it.
Yeah.
Quote unquote.
Right.
Um, which is what he wanted herto do.
And I see that there's somethingthere's some a weird parallel, I
feel like, in what happens toher character, in that it is
(48:52):
made relatively clear that sheshe and Stu are sexually active.
It's not explicit.
We don't know for sure.
But the way that she talks toSydney, the way that she
dresses, the way that she acts,the way that she and Stu act
together, it seems reasonablyclear.
She is also outspoken, strong.
(49:14):
She takes no shit from anyone.
And she's killed trying toescape.
And she's killed trying toescape.
She is alone in the garagebecause Stu says to her, Hey,
can you get me more beer fromthe garage?
And she actually says, like,what am I, the beer wench?
And instead of like, and that'sone of the things that that I
actually this time I was like,instead of being like, no, get
(49:38):
it yourself, which is what todayRose McGowan would say, what
today me would say, 17-year-oldTatum Riley and 20-something
Rose McGowan wanting to getalong and be like, okay, yeah,
okay.
Like, what am I the beer wench,but all right, you know, because
(49:59):
she is a badass, but she wantsto have a career.
And so that puts her in a placeto be vulnerable and then
punished for being outspoken fortaking shit from no one.
And that's horrifying.
SPEAKER_03 (50:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:17):
And I don't know, like, I don't know where to put
that.
Like, is this commentary onthat?
Like, obviously, I I'm certainKevin Williamson had no idea of
that.
And like, mm-mm.
SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
Like No, it's not, it's just one of the ways that
life that art imitates life andlife imitates art, I think.
Rather than being like anintentional commentary.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:37):
Yeah.
I have always been saddened bythe fact that this like badass
character who I love, who drivesa Volkswagen Beetle, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (50:51):
And do you want to tell the listeners why that's
important to me?
Listeners Emily saved up andbought herself a Volkswagen
Beetle when she was uh 16 16?
So 17.
This was 16.
Yeah.
She saved up and bought it withher own money.
It was a very big deal.
It was a very bigaccomplishment.
SPEAKER_01 (51:06):
At the time that I went to see this, I would have
driven my yellow Volkswagen 1972Volkswagen Super Beetle to the
theater to see this movie.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
So we are at time.
There's so much here, so I'm notsurprised.
But I wanna like, is thereanything that we didn't name
that you want to make sure thatyou say before I try to see if I
can reflect back some highlightsat you.
SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
I wish the film franchise hadn't continued as
long as it did.
I haven't seen Past Scream Threeor Four again because of that
experience in around 2000, 2001.
I have no idea where it's gone.
Like it I know they continued tohave metacommentary.
I remember when I saw whateverthe one I saw was, I think it
(51:50):
was four.
I was thinking, like, actuallyit would be fitting and kind of
interesting if Sydney were nowghostface, even though I don't
want that for her as acharacter, but just like if
you're gonna continue with thetrope subverting and the
metacommentary, that would beinteresting.
But like it's like what happenswith long-running sitcoms.
(52:10):
You end up pushing thecharacters to the point where
they're caricatures.
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
Yeah, yeah.
You move that window of what'sacceptable.
It just keeps moving until it'stotally absurd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
Listeners, if if you have continued to watch this
franchise.
Scream franchise, y you might beable to tell me if it's Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:30):
Let us know, please.
Yeah.
Find us on socials.
We're on Instagram and Facebook.
We'll put links, make sure thelinks are in the show notes to
our socials.
All right.
So just in time for Halloween,we are talking about this
original Scream movie, which mysister has complicated feelings
about because it is the filmthat made her fall in love with
(52:52):
horror.
But also then she was horrifiedseveral years later when a peer
was murdered in college and sherealized that she was being
entertained by murder.
There's a lot, like it's kind ofright, rife, ripe, whatever.
Complicated.
So this movie, like one of thethings that's really cool about
(53:14):
this movie is the way in whichit winks at the audience, not
through fourth wall breaking,but through something that is
adjacent, whereby the characterskind of know what genre movie
they're in.
They say out loud what the rulesof the genre are, and then they
break those rules.
And there's something reallydelightful about that.
There's also like a constantlike misdirection and sort of
(53:37):
subversion of expectationsbeyond the scare that keeps the
intellectual viewer on theirtoes and is like a good kind of
challenge, which for SmartyPantslike us is titillating in the
best way.
So that included like killingoff the like big name actor
character in the first 10minutes with Drew Barrymore.
(53:59):
It also included likemisdirection with the sheriff's
boots and other things.
So that even though, even as anavid consumer of mysteries,
Emily didn't know who done itthe first time that she watched
it.
And I heard several times yousort of saying, like, now I
wonder if I watched it for thefirst time now about various
things, not just the mystery,but also sort of the way that
(54:22):
you kind of perceive some of thecharacters.
Notably, this very feministcharacter of Sydney.
She's a badass, she's tough, shelike subverts expectations, like
in the moment where she's like,I'm calling your bluff and
sticks her finger up her noserather than giving the middle
finger, which would have beenkind of expected.
(54:43):
It's like it's she's sounexpected in like really like
spitting in your face kind ofways, not only of the person
who's menacing her, but of thesociety that would shit on
teenage girls.
And that's really like abeautiful thing.
You expressed actual gratitudeto Kel Kevin Williamson, the
screenwriter, and to Wes Craven,the director.
(55:05):
And I would expect, like, alsothe Nev Nev Campbell, the
actress, who embodied thischaracter for this character of
Sydney, her framework for sex,her relationship with sex,
right?
She has boundaries, which shedefends.
Ultimately, she does have sex.
It's a mistake.
(55:26):
The man did not deserve hertrust, but she is not punished
for it.
At least not with her life.
The movie does not sort of makea moral judgment of Sydney for
having had sex.
And there's something thatyou're grateful about that.
SPEAKER_01 (55:44):
I also just want to say, like, like Nancy Thompson,
she is vulnerable, but thatdoesn't take away from her
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (55:53):
Right.
Right.
Nancy Thompson being the lastgirl standing from the Freddie,
the original Freddie Kruegermovie, which is called Nightmare
on Elm Street, and I alwaysforget.
So some of the ways that it liketalks about the tropes and then
subverts them, Roger Ebert said,like, this is deconstruction,
but not in an intellectual way.
It's like in a very practicalway, like the self-heating soup
(56:14):
can, which who knew that was athing in the 90s, I guess Roger
Ebert did.
I still don't really get themetaphor, but that's okay.
I'm gonna leave it.
So we talked a lot about, orsome about comedy and horror,
and we talked about it in theabstract and the ways in which
comedy and horror occupy similarspaces, both physiologically in
(56:35):
the human body, but also like inthe intellectual or
psychological space, emotionalspace of comedy is tragedy plus
time.
Horror is tragedy immediate.
And so the ways in which thosetwo things travel together, I
find it really fascinating thatthe producers were able to get
(56:57):
the rating that they want whenthey invited the ratings board
to look at it as comedy ratherthan a horror.
Like tragedy in the immediate,apparently, our society believes
needs to have some sort oflesson, but comedy does not,
which I also find really, reallyfascinating.
I think we could probably do awhole show about that.
We spent a little bit of timetalking about the way that life
(57:21):
imitates art with Rose McGowan'scharacter, who is a total
badass.
She's outspoken, she takes noguff.
And she has sex with the wrongdude.
And Rose McGowan, the actress,who had non-consensual sex with
the wrong dude, and both thecharacter and the actress were
(57:43):
attacked trying to escape.
So there's something reallypoignant and just heartbreaking
about that, and that you sawthat heartbreak as a 17-year-old
without knowing the story of theactress and the producer who
preyed upon her.
I think that's everything thatwe talked about.
(58:06):
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_01 (58:08):
I think just the tidiness of the film in terms of
like tidy writing, like which Ialways delights me.
Always appeals to you.
Yeah.
But one of the things, and Ididn't mention this earlier, but
one of the things the reason whythey ended up killing off the
principal was because theyrealized that there was like uh
30 minutes of the movie wherenobody died.
(58:28):
It wasn't originally supposedto, but they realized, like, oh,
they killed him off.
And then that gave an excuse forthe remainder of the party to
leave because they went to go.
And so at like that kind ofthing just delights me with that
kind of like behind the scenesinto storytelling because it
gets to human nature becauseit's horrifying that the kids
(58:49):
are like, oh, let's go see himbefore they cut him down.
But at the same time, yeah, itsounds about right.
And it also makes the finalconfrontation like it makes it
make sense rather than justlike, all right, well, better
get going, which is the onlyother reason why like six kids
(59:10):
would be leaving.
Right.
So that's just it's phenomenal.
It's amazing.
And I just I love hearing thosestories about how a story comes
to be cool.
SPEAKER_00 (59:22):
All right.
Next week, Em, I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
the Steve Martin film The Jerk.
Ah.
I was born a poor black child.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And we are going to talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (59:36):
Okay.
Yes.
All right.
Well, I'll see you then.
SPEAKER_00 (59:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the show.
With your people.
(01:00:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
She has bodily autonomy.
Sometimes that means feelingpressured or making a mistake or
like even enthusiastically doingthis.
Maybe that is what she wanted,and she finally feels like,
okay, I need to stop worryingabout being my mom and just be
the sexual being I want to be.
It's not clear, but it doesn'tmatter in terms of who she is as
(00:22):
a person, and that's phenomenal.
SPEAKER_00 (00:25):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1996 Wes Craven film Screamwith my sister, Tracy Guy
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
(01:06):
So, Trace, I know that you'veseen this movie only because you
mentioned it last week, and I Idon't think I realized that
you'd seen it because of me.
SPEAKER_00 (01:15):
Yeah, you told me it was worth my screwing my courage
to the sticking place.
And so I did.
I mean, in 1996, I was I was incollege, so I obviously didn't
watch it with you, but yeah,I've seen it, but probably not
since then.
So what's in my head about it isI don't remember who the killer
(01:36):
or killers were.
I remember ghost face, like themask.
And I remember sort of beingcharmed by, like, we sometimes
will say, like, if people knewwhat genre of movie they were
in, they would make differentchoices.
And in Scream, they do know whatgenre of movie they're in and
sort of talk about it.
And there's I remember beingreally charmed by that.
I remember really liking themain character, the final, the
(01:59):
protagonist, final girl, Sydney,I guess.
I remember really, really likingher.
That's all I got, really.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout it today?
What's what's at stake?
So we'll well, we're talkingabout it because of Halloween.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So that's why today.
Right.
What's at stake is this is themovie that made me love horror.
We did an episode onPoltergeist, which is what made
me terrified of horror as asmall child.
This film came out in Decemberof '96.
I was 17.
And it was when I was so I was asenior in high school.
(02:35):
So I was the demographic for thefilm.
And it was when I was seeingpretty much one, maybe two
movies every weekend.
Like I I went to the movies.
I remember I went to see it withfriends.
Over winter break, I was talkingto a friend of mine and saying,
(02:55):
like, I really got to go see itagain.
And so I went to see it in thetheater twice within like a week
and a half.
And from there, I ended upbecoming kind of a horror
aficionado, which I I don'tthink I would have described
myself that way, but that's thatis what happened.
Now, I there are certain thingsI don't do in horror.
(03:18):
Like in the early 2000s, withlike Saw and things like that,
things went super gore heavy.
And this is a very gory movie.
I'm not gonna lie, this is verygory.
But when things went super goreheavy and was like
pornographically gory, I don'tdo that.
But these kinds of films wherethere's a bit of a mystery to
(03:39):
it, there are true scares to it,and there is humor to it.
And all of those I think of asclassic horror, Wes Craven style
horror, became one of myfavorite genres.
This is one of his movies.
This was Wes Craven's likereturn to the genre.
And it is, it's a phenomenalmovie.
(04:01):
So it's an important film to me.
Re-watching it, I realized Ihave not seen it in nearly 25
years.
And it was for a little whileone of my favorite movies.
And there's a very specificreason why I haven't re-watched
it, and it is something thatmade it very difficult to
re-watch.
When I was a senior in college,sometime around 2000, 2001, a
(04:25):
young woman from my school,which is very small,
disappeared.
She was missing for severalmonths.
It was known that she wasdepressed, and it was thought
that she had gone somewhere totake her own life.
On the day that we discoveredthat she had, in fact, been
murdered, I had not been feelingwell and had decided to take a
break from studying and wasgoing to watch a movie.
(04:47):
I ended up watching, I think,X-Files or something instead,
but I had Scream on VHS, this ishow long ago it was, and had
almost watched Scream.
And I was horrified that the daythat I found out a peer had been
murdered, I was consideringwatching a film where murder is
(05:09):
entertainment.
SPEAKER_00 (05:11):
And just to be super, super clear, you thought
about watching Scream before youknew.
Before I knew Peer.
Yes.
So And so it was after the factthat you were sort of horrified
by murder as entertainment.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (05:22):
You know, I'm not feeling well in my dorm, put on
a movie.
I had been thinking about it,but I was like, nah, I feel
like, you know, drooling overDavid DeCoveney instead.
And then we get thenotification, which I think was
via email where like they sentsomething out and, you know,
like here's counseling and allof that.
And I crying and feeling sick tomy stomach.
(05:43):
I haven't touched the moviesince.
And watching it now, now that Iam no longer the demographic of
the people of the people inperil.
I am the parents of the peoplein peril.
It's a very, very differentexperience.
Although it is just asphenomenal a movie.
(06:05):
It is a very odd experiencewatching this.
I have to say, I am so gratefulto this movie still, even as I
feel many kinds of ways aboutMurderous Entertainment.
And the movie even talks aboutthat in some ways.
But I am so grateful for givingme Sydney Prescott as a role
(06:29):
model.
I didn't get Nancy Thompsonbecause I was so afraid of
Freddie Krueger, but I gotSydney Prescott at a point when
I think it was important for meto have her.
And I really am hopeful that istrue of lots of other young
women like me.
That's what's at stake here.
Let me give you a couple ofpostcards from the destination,
like we say.
(06:50):
So this is actually a veryfeminist movie in a lot of ways.
So I'm gonna want to talk aboutthat.
It's very funny and like witty,and I don't mean that in like
the like bon mo.
I mean like witty in the waythat it is constructed, smart.
And so like it names horrortropes and deconstructs itself,
(07:13):
and it's just tight.
It's really, really well done.
And what's impressive about itis how it's well done in
multiple levels.
There is something veryprescient in it about angry
young men and kind of incelculture.
There is also something in itthat I think is prescient about
(07:37):
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan, who is a major
character, plays a majorcharacter in this.
Harvey and Bob Weinstein wereproducers of this film.
Bob was the lead producer, so,but Harvey Weinstein was
involved.
So all those are things that Ithink I'm gonna want to talk
about.
And then this movie also is partof the reason why I am a big
(07:58):
believer that comedy and horrorare two sides of the same coin.
So, so those are all things thatI'm gonna want to talk about.
Since it has been 30 years sinceyou saw the movie, I'm gonna
give you a reminder of whathappens.
I'm kind of gonna, I'm not gonnago blow by blow.
(08:20):
We get the setup of who thekiller is and what what's going
on with an introduction with themurder of Casey Becker, played
by Drew Barrymore.
Now, one of the things that wasvery fascinating about this, and
actually I think Barrymore waspart of the decision in doing
this, she was originally tappedto play Sidney Prescott, like
(08:40):
the main character.
And she was like, wouldn't it bemore interesting if I'm killed
off in the first 10 minutes?
So kind of like Marian Crane inPsycho.
Sorry, I kept thinking NormanBates, Bates Hotel, I couldn't
come over the name of the movie.
And they leaned into that wherewith the because she was a known
(09:02):
actress and they leaned into itwith all the advertising, we
thought she was going to be inthe film.
And so she with the fact thatshe dies in the first 10 minutes
is shocking and very, very smartfilmmaking.
So we see how the killeroperates.
He calls, he uses a voicechanger modulator.
(09:24):
Although I just found out todaythat's actually a guy.
That's an actual guy who hasthat voice, which is like, damn.
Holy crap.
So calls starts kind offlirtatious and acting like he's
calling with the wrong number,then starts being sadistic and
(09:47):
scaring her, ends up killing herboyfriend who he has like tied
up and kills her just before herparents get home.
We then meet Sydney Prescott,played by Nev Campbell.
Sydney Prescott's mother wasreportedly raped and murdered
about a year before.
Her mother, Maureen.
(10:08):
Her father is Neil.
Cotton Weary was put away forthat crime, is the name of the
man who was put away for thatcrime.
He claims that it was aconsensual sexual relationship.
And Sydney was the primarywitness.
She saw Cottonweary leaving witha bloodstained jacket, which we
(10:29):
later learn she saw someoneleaving with the jacket.
We claims that he left it behindand that someone else was
wearing it.
And there are rumors all aroundtown, this is a small town of
Woodsboro, uh California, thatMaureen had affairs left, right,
and center.
(10:50):
When we meet Sydney, her dad istelling her is it's late at
night.
Her dad is saying, like, hey,I'm going to be out of town
until Sunday.
There's cash on the kitchentable.
My flight leaves in the morning.
I'll be at the Hilton by theairport, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah.
And just then her boyfriendBilly Loomis, played by Skeet
(11:11):
Ulrich, climbs in the window.
I don't think it's a coincidencethat he looks a little bit like
Johnny Depp.
He's got a very similar kind oflook to Johnny Depp, who would
climb into Nancy Thompson'swindow in Friday the 13th.
Oh, the other one.
The Freddy Kruger movies.
(11:33):
Well, the first one.
They have a conversation wherehe talks about how they've been
together for two years.
For the first year, things arepretty hot and heavy, but since
her mother died, it's been kindof more PG or edited for
television.
So it's made clear that Sydneyhas some reasonable hangups.
SPEAKER_00 (11:56):
I mean, yeah, I think the girl's got a right to
them.
SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
So the other thing we learn is that the way that
her room is set up, if hercloset door is open, her her
door won't open.
The door in her bedroom won'topen.
But you know what?
I'm not doing this beat by beat,so it doesn't matter.
Next day at school, she findsout about Casey and her
boyfriend Steve's murder.
The police interview everyone.
We meet Sydney's best friendTatum Riley, who is played by
(12:23):
Rose McGowan.
We also meet Tatum's olderbrother, Dewey Riley, who is
deputy, he's played by DavidArquette, as kind of like
lovably incompetent.
He's deputy Dewey.
And we also, in addition to thefriend group, includes Tatum's
boyfriend Stu, played by MatthewLillard, and then their friend
(12:44):
Randy, who works at the and he'splayed by Jamie Kennedy.
Their friend Randy, JamieKennedy, who is movie obsessed,
he works at the video store.
SPEAKER_00 (12:54):
For younger listeners, you used to have to
go to a store to get movies torent a movie.
SPEAKER_01 (13:02):
You couldn't just pick it out on your on your
phone or your TV.
Yeah.
We meet all of them.
And we also meet the principal,Himbri, who is played by the
Fonz.
Hosh, what is that guy's name?
Wink Winkler.
Henry Winkler, thank you.
Played by Henry Winkler.
So we kind of see and hearpeople around talking about how
(13:25):
messed up Sydney is and how hermom was like a slut all around
town.
Like we hear people talkingabout her mother that way.
People use that word.
We also end up meeting GailWeathers, who is the reporter
for Top News, played by CourtneyCox.
She is kind of a bit of anopportunist of a journalist who
(13:48):
has written a book about themurder of Sydney's mother.
But she believes that CottonWherry is innocent and is
working to try to get him off ofdeath row, which she is doing
partially to save his life, butalso because it'll sell so many
books.
SPEAKER_03 (14:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (14:07):
So Sydney is going to spend the night at Tatum's
house after, you know, learningabout the murders since her
dad's out of town, but she is athome, she doesn't drive, and so
she's taking the bus home andshe's waiting for Tatum to come
pick her up after practice.
And the ghost face killer comesand tries to attack her there at
(14:29):
her house.
Billy shows up as she's likefreaking out and a cell phone
falls out of his pocket.
Now, this is 96 when not everyteenager had a cell phone.
It was actually relativelyunusual for a teenager to have a
cell phone.
And so she freaks out and thinksthat he he is gonna face it.
Well, we don't have that nameyet, but yeah.
(14:49):
Okay.
So he is arrested.
She at the police station, theyare unable to reach her father.
And again, this is before, youknow, everyone had a cell phone.
Everybody has a call.
So he is he has not checked inat the hotel where you're
supposed to be.
And so when she gets to Tatum'shouse, there's a phone call for
(15:10):
her.
When she answers, it's thekiller calling again with the
voice.
So since Billy is in jail, itcan't be him.
The next day at school, she isattacked again by someone in the
bathroom.
And so Tatum says to her, like,you go where I go, I go where
you go.
And because of that attack, theyclose the school and they put
(15:32):
everyone on curfew.
And so after the school isclosed, the principal is killed,
and they all go to Stu's house.
He has a party.
His parents are not home becausehe throws a party with a killer
on the loose?
SPEAKER_02 (15:49):
What the hell?
SPEAKER_01 (15:50):
The their thinking is safety in numbers.
And then also Stu's parentsaren't home.
So So he wants people aroundhim.
Yeah, but also he he they'rethey're uh like they have beer
and and stuff, and they're like,these are 17, 18-year-olds.
Like they shouldn't be doingthis, but okay.
SPEAKER_00 (16:11):
Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01 (16:12):
So Tatum tells Stu, do not let Billy come over
because Sydney will be there andshe's still feeling really
uneasy around him.
He had spoken to her at schooland said, he said something
like, you know, like, Iunderstand that you're upset,
you have trauma about your mom,but like, you know, my mom
abandoned us and I got over it.
And she's like, this is not thesame thing at all.
(16:37):
Yeah.
So what a fucker.
Jesus.
So Gail Weather shows up at theparty, Deputy Dewey.
That's the Courtney Cox.
Courtney Cox character.
Deputy Dewey is there as well.
He's there to keep an eye on hissister and on Sydney.
He goes in and like takes a lookaround.
(16:59):
He lets the kids keep drinking,which is uh now he's supposed to
be 25, and these kids are like17 or 18.
So I don't know.
Anyway, Gail drops a camera inthe in the living room so she
can keep an eye on what's goingon in the uh the house.
And then she goes back out toher uh TV van where her uh
(17:21):
cameraman is, and the killingsbegin first.
And this is also when Randy goesthrough the rules, like don't
have sex because only virginslive to the end, don't drink or
do drugs, because it's the samething as the virgin rule, like
it's about moral purity andnever say I'll be right back.
(17:42):
And so Stu asks Tatum to go tothe garage to get him some more
beers.
She goes out there, she iscornered by someone wearing the
costume, she assumes it's Randyand is like just kind of like
knock it off.
And then he uh approaches with aknife.
(18:03):
She tries to get out of thegarage through a cat door, and
the killer like just puts hasthe door go up and that kills
her.
Oh, the a garage door, a catdoor in the garage.
Then many of the kids leave whenit actually is curfew because
it's 9 p.m.
But several, there there's stilllike about a you know, half a
(18:23):
dozen there.
When they get a phone call thatthe principal has been found
dead, hanging from thegoalposts.
And so everyone leaves exceptfor Randy.
And you know, they don't no oneknows that Tatum is dead.
At around that time, Billy comesin and Sydney, Stu suggests,
(18:45):
Billy, Sidney, why don't you goup to my parents' room so you
can talk?
And and Billy's like, real, realsubtle.
And Sidney's like, no, it'sokay, let's talk.
So while they're up there, theyhave a conversation.
She's like, I'm really sorrythat I accused you.
And he's like, No, I'm sorry, Ishouldn't have said that about
your mom and my mom, blah, blah,blah, blah.
(19:05):
She said, like, you can't choosethe movie you're in or choose
the genre of movie you're in.
I wish it could be a Meg Ryanmovie or maybe a good porno.
And then like her suggestionbeing like, Okay, I'm ready.
So they're having sex upstairs.
Randy is by himself downstairs.
We don't know where Stu is.
(19:26):
We see the killer comes in onSidney and Billy after they're
getting dressed again.
And she's asking him, like, youknow, who did you call when you
got the one call after gettingarrested?
Like, because that would be areally smart way to like throw
me off the scent if you were thekiller.
And he's like, Well, what do Ihave to do to prove that I'm not
the killer?
And then the guy comes, theghost face killer comes in and
(19:48):
stabs Billy.
She runs away.
She manages to get away by goingthrough the attic, basically
falling down, like onto the ontoa boat that's parked on the
driveway.
Driveway, thank you.
Sees Tatum, runs to the newsvan.
Meanwhile, Dewey and GailWeathers are like trying to
(20:09):
investigate a car that's beenfound, abandoned, and they
realize it's Neil Prescott'scar, Sydney's dad's.
The killer comes and killsKenny, the cameraman.
SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
Oh, you hadn't seen the cameraman.
SPEAKER_01 (20:24):
And there's Sydney is like trying to get away.
The deputy is stabbed in theback on the porch.
Gail gets into the van anddiscovers that her cameraman is
on the roof, and then sheswerves to avoid Sydney and ends
up driving off the road and isknocked unconscious, might be,
(20:47):
or possibly dead.
Randy, who has been like knockedout by Gail because she's
freaked out, finds Sydney andshe doesn't trust him.
She doesn't she doesn't know whoto trust.
Stu shows up and so she knocks,she's like, fuck you both, and
locks them both outside and goesinside to call 911.
And Billy comes downstairs andshe's like, Oh my god, I thought
(21:08):
you were dead.
She now has, I think, thedeputy's gun.
I don't remember how she got it,but and he's like, Give me the
gun, it's okay, it's okay.
And he unlocks a door and letslets Randy.
Stu and Randy.
I think it's just Randy in andshoots him.
And that's when you discoverthat Billy is the killer.
And then he lets Stu in the backdoor, and it turns out that they
(21:29):
have been working together,which is why the killer has an
alibi because there's two ofthem.
Find out the Sidney's like, whyare you doing this?
And he's like, Well, you know,why do you need a motive?
But then turns out it's becauseher mother had slept with his
father, which is what led to hismother leaving.
(21:51):
And so Stu and Billy have a planthat they're going to stab each
other, so it looks like they'rethe only survivors, and they
have her father there, and theyhave cloned his phone so that he
will be the one who is blamedfor it.
Like he'll kill, and thenthey're going to have him shot
in the head and make it looklike a suicide, and so they'll
(22:12):
be the only survivors.
But Gail has had woken up, shetook the gun, and there's
tussles, things happen.
Ultimately, Sidney is able tosubdue, with the help of Randy
and Gail, subdue both of thekillers.
At the end, we have those threeare still standing, and actually
(22:35):
we see Dewey being loaded onto astretcher at the end, and Gail
is giving the story at the end,still all bloodied and
everything, without her originalcameraman.
SPEAKER_00 (22:45):
Randy got shot just in the shoulder.
SPEAKER_01 (22:48):
Okay.
Yeah.
Nobody's a good shot here.
Okay.
Except for Sydney, because atthe end they're looking over
Billy, who nearly like he'sgotten up several times, and
they're the three of them arestanding over Billy, and Randy
says, This in a movie, this iswhere the killer would come up
for one final scare, and likehis eyes open, and Sydney shoots
him in the forehead, and she'slike, Not in my movie.
(23:10):
Wow.
Okay.
So I was trying to do blow byblow.
It's hard.
Where do you want to start?
Let me start with like what thismovie is known for.
That's the way it names hertropes and the way that it
subverts them by naming themwhile at the same time using
them and what it does so wellwith that.
(23:32):
Like Kevin Williamson is justbrilliant, this author.
He's a screenwriter.
Yeah.
He wrote the script and WesCraven turned it down several
times.
He wanted Wes Craven to direct,and he turned it down several
times, and then finally, like,was like, no, this is really
good.
I'm gonna do this.
And there was, there'sdefinitely some collaboration
within there.
(23:53):
But it's a like it's a reallymasterful mystery, which is part
of what I love about it becauseI like mysteries.
Like the first time I saw it, Ihad absolutely no idea who'd
done it.
Whereas, like, and you know, Iwas 17, so who knows if I saw it
for the first time now, if I'dhave I'm such an avid consumer
(24:14):
of mysteries, it's hard tosurprise me.
But even at 17, you were alreadyin the I was already an avid
consumer of mysteries.
And they do a lot of things tolike, they give you red
herrings.
So for instance, when Sydney isattacked in the bathroom at
school, she's in the bathroomalone and she's like looking
under the stalls because she'sbecause they're going sit in a
(24:36):
way that she's like, Am Iactually hearing that or not?
And then a feet come down fromthe bath from the toilet, and
they're wearing like these likereally like not Doc Martin's,
but like work boots, and thenwith jeans, and then the robe
from the costume like kind ofcomes down.
And then in the next scene, yousee the chief of police smoking
(25:01):
a cigarette, and Dewey's like, Ithought you quit.
He's like, I did, but he'soverwhelmed.
And then when he he stubs outthe cigarette, you see he's
wearing the same kind of workboots.
So, like those kinds of likelittle misdirections, and I have
no idea if that was written intothe script, if that was Wes
Craven or what, but justbrilliant.
Those are so good because theykeep you off balance at every
(25:25):
moment in terms of the mysteryaspect of it.
Cause like prior to that, like,oh no, I don't what the sheriff
be doing with that?
But then, like, right, whywouldn't it be?
SPEAKER_00 (25:38):
You know?
Yeah.
And why did they show us theboots if not?
Right.
So even the way that you namedit, like Sydney says, like, who
did you call with your like andthen they so she's right.
But then immediately it'scountered by the killer stabbing
Billy.
So yeah, yeah.
I hear that.
SPEAKER_01 (25:58):
So like it's just a it's a this is a gorgeously
written story.
And some of it is like KevinWilliamson.
The majority of is KevinWilliamson.
And then you have Wes Cravenbringing his just incredible
direction to it.
And then you have things likeDrew Barrymore being like, kill
(26:18):
me off in the first 10 minutes.
That it all keeps you offbalance.
SPEAKER_00 (26:23):
Which is kind of meta, like doing that with the
actor.
Because you think, especially ifthey advertise that Barrymore
was in it, then you think thatcharacter's gonna have plot
armor.
So to subvert that immediately,yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
And so that is why I fell in love with horror,
because it was like I didn'treally do horror.
This introduced me to all of thehorror tropes.
The fact that I didn't knowthem, subverted them while also
leaning into them.
Even like the the like in amovie, he'd wake up one last
(26:58):
time and he does, but hedoesn't.
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (27:01):
Uh-huh.
It's also the case that like theway you're naming being kept off
balance, it was challengingintellectuals in the best way.
In a way that one doesn't, ifone doesn't know horror genre,
one doesn't expect, right?
I kind of expect to just bescared.
Yes.
And that's it.
But so to have the scareactually be paired with this
(27:25):
sort of intellectual challengeis titillating for smarty pants
like us.
SPEAKER_01 (27:32):
Yeah.
And the fact that so one of myfavorite moments, the first time
Sydney is called, she's at homealone.
She'd been asleep.
She wakes up, like she fellasleep after school, and she
wakes up.
Tatum has called saying, like,hey, because Tatum was gonna
supposed to pick her up at 7:15.
And she's like, Hey, practiceran long.
I'm on my way.
And then she hangs up, and thenthe phone immediately rings
(27:54):
after and she thinks it's Tatumcalling right back.
And she's like, just get here,don't worry about it.
The killer is talking to her anddoing the like kind of
flirtatious kind of thing.
He starts by saying, like, I'mon your front porch right now.
And so she's like, All right,I'm calling your bluff, because
she like looks out and there'snobody out there.
And so she goes out.
That's one of the things that'struly frightening about the
(28:16):
first 10 minutes with DrewBarrymore.
When he's flirtatious, he'ssaying, like, I what's your
name?
And she, you know, you stillhaven't told me your name.
And he she's like, Why do youwant to know my name?
And he's like, Well, I just wantto know who I'm looking at,
which freaks her out.
And then he later on calls herblondie because she's blonde and
and so like, oh my god, he cansee me.
So she goes out onto Sydney whenshe she's calling the bluff, she
(28:39):
goes onto the porch, she's like,You can see me right now.
I'm like, All right, what am Idoing?
And she sticks her finger up hernose.
What am I doing?
Tell me what I'm doing.
And part of the reason why Ilove that moment so much is it's
just a it feels like like it'sright after she says, I don't
like horror movies because it'sa big breasted bubblehead who's
(29:05):
going up the stairs when sheshould be going out the front
door.
You know, what's the point?
She is like pushing back againstthese tropes, and that is such a
funny way to do it.
Like, you know, like, oh, youthink you say you can see me?
Tell me what I'm doing rightnow, and I'll believe you.
And so and she does somethinglike this, you know, yeah,
(29:27):
absurd and and yeah and like notladylike and gross and not sexy,
and not like because it would beeasy to be like, you know,
middle finger, because thatwould be an easy one to guess.
Right.
So like it it's spitting in theface of the expectations of like
(29:52):
the low expectations of teenagegirls.
SPEAKER_00 (29:57):
Yes, and also the person who started.
Trying to menace her, literallyin this case.
Like at the just the surfacelevel, it's spitting in the face
of the person trying to menaceher.
And at the meta level, it'sabout, yes, I see that.
That's really nice.
Yes.
So I talk to me like while we'rehere with spitting in the face
of people who would diminishteenage girls.
(30:19):
You named in your postcard, younamed that this is a very
feminist movie.
Explain to me what you mean bythat.
So Sydney's a badass.
SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Sydney has very specific boundaries with her
boyfriend.
So when he comes to see her atthe beginning, and he's like,
you know, we were hot and heavy,and then your mom died, and now
we're like edited for TV.
And she's like, Did you comeover for something specific?
And he's like, No, no, no, Iwould never, I would never
wouldn't dream of violating yourunderwear rule.
(30:50):
So like, she's got a rule.
And he says all the rightthings.
And this gives a I I feel likethis gives a very reasonable
look at what it looks like forquote unquote nice guys to push
the boundaries.
(31:11):
In our very first episode, Italked about how in Twilight, if
that's a chastity parable, itdoesn't actually tell girls how
to handle when they're beingpressured.
Whereas this, I feel like itdoes.
Because she it's also it likeit's tough and it's realistic.
(31:32):
But she has this rule.
SPEAKER_00 (31:34):
He claims to be respecting it, and yet he keeps
pushing and keeps acting likeit's like it he says, I won't
violate your underwear rulewhile he's sticking his hands
down underwear.
SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
Well, not quite, but he's not literally, but he's
he's he's pushing theboundaries.
He's tap dancing on her on herboundary line.
And she stops him.
She says, No, stop, get out.
And we know her father is in thenext room and he had heard her,
like, when she was surprisedwhen he came in the window, he'd
(32:12):
heard her like go.
And so we know that she has atthis moment, she has a way out
of this.
Right.
So she can call her back.
She can call her back up.
But as he's leaving, she says,like, look, I understand that
you're frustrated, and how abouta like a PG 13 relationship?
And so she flashes him.
(32:34):
And so it's uncle, like as a46-year-old woman watching this,
it's harder to see if that islike, does she actually want
that or is that want to?
As a 17-year-old watching it, Isaw that as like I kind of want
to push my own boundaries alittle bit too.
She does end up sleeping withBilly.
(32:56):
She has this lovely conversationwith Tatum.
Rose McGowan's Tatum is myfavorite character.
And I hate that she dies in thismovie, and always have, because
she very gently says, Is itpossible that you were wrong
about your mom?
There have been these rumorsabout her having affairs.
(33:18):
And Sydney says, like, do youbelieve them?
And the way Tatum says is like,well, you you hear that Richard
Gere gerbil rumor so many times,and you start to wonder.
And it's very gentle, and thenTate and Sidney is like a little
bit upset, and Tatum's like, I'msorry I mentioned it.
And they're clearly friends.
(33:40):
And Sidney says, like, well, ifthat's the case, then there's a
killer still at loose, and I waswrong, and blah, blah, blah.
And Tatum's like, that's that isnot on you.
That's not on you to worryabout.
And they are later grow groceryshopping for the for the party.
Sorry, did so did Billy killSydney's mom?
Billy killed Sydney's mom.
SPEAKER_00 (34:00):
Yuck.
SPEAKER_01 (34:01):
Sorry.
Okay.
They're grocery shopping for theparty.
And Sidney says, Well, like, Ifeel like Billy does have a
point, you know, because of mypost-traumatic stress, like I'm
like sexually anorexic.
Tatum says, You are too good forBilly and his penis.
Yeah.
Like, that is nothing to do withanything.
And so she ends up telling,Sydney ends up telling Billy,
(34:23):
like, I'm afraid I'm gonna turnout just like my mom.
And that's part of the reasonwhy I'm like nervous about
having sex.
So it is unclear to me, watchingthis as an adult, if Sydney's
decision to sleep with Billy isreally what Sydney wants.
(34:46):
It's unclear.
And I'm not gonna say it doesn'tmatter, but because it does.
But what I absolutely adoreabout this film is that Stu and
Billy try to shame her for it.
Because when they are menacingher and telling her, like, you
know, they're doing the villainplan thing and all of that, you
(35:08):
know, this is what happened,this is what to expect, blah,
blah, blah.
She says, fuck you.
And Billy says, No, we alreadyplayed that game.
And Stu says, Yeah, you gave itup.
That means you have to die.
And that doesn't phase her atall.
And it is clear that from themovie, like the movie makes it
(35:34):
clear, she may have made amistake in trusting Billy with
that intimacy.
But that does not in any waydetract from who she is as a
badass, as a good person, asworthy.
SPEAKER_00 (35:51):
It's interesting that that is that we have Randy
sort of say the rules, and oneof the rules is not to have sex,
right?
So but all of the rules end upgetting broken in this movie.
So it's interesting that weactually like get it explicitly.
Yes.
And then the bad guys try toreiterate the rules, but they're
(36:14):
not writing the rules in thismovie.
Sydney's writing the rules inthis movie.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, she even says it, not inmy movie.
Right.
Like, so there's like thisinteresting sort of meta
commentary that's sort ofsaying, like, yeah, this is a
horror movie, but Sydney'swriting the rules.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (36:33):
So, and I just want to reiterate how grateful I am
to Kevin Williamson and WesCraven for giving me that
framework with Sydney.
Like, there is no shamewhatsoever for having made that
mistake.
It does not detract from her inany way, shape, or form.
This is not like the one falsenote that I had, because I so
(36:56):
enjoyed Nightmare on Elm Street,but the one false note was the
fact that Tina seemed to be likedeserve to die because she had
sex, which I think West Cravengrew from.
You know, this is 12 yearslater.
And this is making it clear.
No, absolutely not.
This is she has bodily autonomy.
Sometimes that means feelingpressured or making a mistake or
(37:18):
like even enthusiastically doingthis.
Maybe, maybe that is what shewanted, and she finally feels
like, okay, I need to stopworrying about being my mom and
just be the sexual being I wantto be.
It's not clear.
But it doesn't matter in termsof who she is as a person, and
that's phenomenal.
(37:38):
That is phenomenal.
SPEAKER_00 (37:40):
So I think I just named, you know, that this movie
that through Randy, we hear likethe name, like we name the rules
of horror movies and then webreak them.
So I you before we hit record,you were telling me about sort
of this movie and like RogerEbert's take on the
deconstruction.
Can you like do that for ourlisteners a little bit?
SPEAKER_01 (38:00):
So so the movie, the way that Roger Ebert describes
it, and I'll I'll include hisreview, his contemporaneous
review in the show notes, ishe's like, very rarely in movies
do you have characters who go tothe movies.
You know, sometimes you'll havecharacters who go to the movies,
but these characters knowmovies.
And so like they name the tropesand they deconstruct them, and
(38:21):
not in an academic way, but in ahow to survive this way.
And he described it as like thismovie deconstructs itself in the
it like a self-heating can ofsoup.
SPEAKER_00 (38:34):
I don't remember that as a phenomenon, but you
assure me that that was a thingin the 90s.
SPEAKER_01 (38:41):
And that is like that is part of what's going on
there.
This film is self-aware andwinking at the audience in some
ways, but also not.
SPEAKER_00 (38:53):
It's aware of what it is, but it doesn't actually
ever break the fourth wall.
No, it never breaks the fourthwall.
Which I think that's that's sortof what's interesting.
Because I I love fourth wallbreaking.
I love it.
I it delights me.
This is a different sort ofself-awareness without actually
ever breaking the fourth wall.
So we are in on something andcan delight in the way that
(39:18):
Randy like knows what genrethey're in, but then have Sydney
completely subvert it.
Like there's something like it'sakin to that, but actually, but
a different, it's a differentrealm of sort of delight at that
subversion that's not fourthwall breaking, but is sort of
(39:39):
awareness of what genre we'rein, you know, or awareness of
the like even the way that thatfinal moment in the movies, he'd
wake up for one final scare andhe does, but then she kills him
immediately and says out loud,not in my movie.
I wish I want a word for thatself-awareness, that like meta
(39:59):
commentary, because it's notfourth wall breaking, but it's
like adjacent.
SPEAKER_01 (40:03):
Well, and what I find really interesting is that
I feel like the movie, if youare willing to be self-aware as
an audience member, is alsoasking you to think about what
you're doing.
Yeah.
Which is why I haven't seen itin 25 years.
(40:23):
So since Gail Weathers is judgedby the movie for profiting off
of murder, that kind of for theintrospective viewer is going to
get you thinking, like, well,what am I doing?
I'm watching it forentertainment.
(40:45):
Right.
Not even profit.
I'm not I'm not e it's not evenprofit, and it's not even like
journalism.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
Right.
It's just for fun.
SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
It's just for fun.
There is something that I thinkis really interesting because
this came out in '96.
It was right in the midst of thelike violent video games,
violent movies causes kids to beviolent.
Right.
Even though it was beforeColumbine and the first the
beginning of mass shootings inschools, which is when, you
(41:13):
know, like that was like when wewere really hammered home, like,
oh, it's Marilyn Manson, it'sviolent video games.
But there were we were alreadysaying it was violent, violent
movies.
Sydney, when she's confrontingStu and Billy, says she's what
says to them, because they'rethey keep referencing movies,
she says to them, You've watchedtoo many movies.
And Billy says, movies don'tmake people killers.
(41:39):
Movies make killers morecreative.
There's like also that kind ofpushback against that idea that
like it's the film industry,it's the entertainment that is
causing the violence.
So that's also interestingbecause it's like, okay, well,
this is in some ways a safeoutlet for uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (42:03):
Whatever that is.
Whatever that is.
Yeah.
There are two things that comeup for me in terms of that, what
you just said.
One is we've talked aboutbefore, and you named comedy and
horror as being two sides of thesame coin.
The other actually is themeta-meta commentary about
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan.
(42:25):
Yeah.
So I want to make sure we couldcover both.
Let's do comedy and horror firstand then go.
SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
So apparently, this film, they had to fight the MPAA
to get an R rating.
They apparently cut instead oflike instead of like NC17s.
SPEAKER_00 (42:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:45):
Apparently, like they they cut quite a bit of
gore already and they keptcoming back.
Bob Weinstein finally got theMPAA to agree to it when they
had wanted to like cut even moregore, when he told them, look at
this as a comedy instead of ahorror.
And then they said, okay, ourrating is fine.
(43:06):
Huh.
Which, whoa.
SPEAKER_00 (43:10):
Weird.
What do you think that's about?
Like, unpack that for me.
SPEAKER_01 (43:15):
Now, I think some of that has to do with the fact
that there is a sense thathorror needs to be moralistic in
some way.
SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
And comedy does not.
SPEAKER_01 (43:26):
Comedy does not.
SPEAKER_00 (43:28):
If you have that kind of gore, there has to be a
And the moral of the story is ahorror, if it's gonna have that
much gore, has to like there hasto be equal darkness and light
for horror for the NPAA, maybe.
I think that's so if it's gonnabe gory, there has to be some
sort of moralistic lesson.
Yeah.
Whereas comedy can just becomecomedy can just be, yeah.
(43:49):
It doesn't need to be a socialcommentary.
SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
I think that is what happened.
I think I mean I buy it.
I'll buy it.
I'll buy it.
Now, the thing is, like I havelong said I think comedy and
horror are two sides of the samecoin.
Now, the essence of horror istragedy.
The essence of comedy istragedy.
Like that they will talk aboutcomedy is tragedy plus time.
As much even as a 17-year-old,as much as I delighted in this
(44:14):
film, it's also tragic.
You know, a lot.
SPEAKER_00 (44:19):
There's a high body count.
There's a huge body count andthe psychological trauma of
Sydney, who not only lost hermother, but then it ended up
being her boyfriend who did it,who then tried to like that is
that's just trauma on top oftrauma.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (44:34):
Yes, exactly.
Now, part of the reason why Isay, like, so that's part of why
I say they're two sides of thesame coin, is because they they
are both a way of dealing withtrauma.
They're a way of dealing withtragedy.
The other reason is becausethere is a kind of like laughter
and like that kind of screamscare response, scare response
(44:57):
are both they feel similar inthe physiological similarity.
SPEAKER_00 (45:03):
I agree.
I agree.
There's also a way like like wetalk about comedy as being sort
of subverting expectations.
And that scare is also asubvert, like, even if you're
expecting it, that like a jumpscare or whatever is a
subversion of expectations.
It's a it's an interruption.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
And so, you know, the best horror is funny because
you can't help but be funnybecause there is They're
adjacent in the body.
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
Yeah.
In the body and and and in thesort of platonic ideal.
Yes.
SPEAKER_01 (45:36):
This film leaned into it.
It leaned into the humor.
And some of that has to do withthe screenwriting, some of it
has to do with the actors.
So Matthew Lillard in particularis he That's Randy?
Uh no, he's uh Stu.
His delivery is like this kindof manic.
Even watching it this time,where I had a very hard time
watching it.
There is a line that made melaugh so hard, even though it is
(46:00):
awful.
So after Sydney has confrontedthem, she calls using her
father's phone and the the voicemodulator.
It's Stu on the phone who andhe's bleeding and not doing
well.
And she she says to him, like,So we know, we know Billy's
doing this because he's a mama'sboy.
What's your reason when youdon't have a motive?
(46:23):
He goes, peer pressure.
I'm just too sensitive.
And like it's so funny, even inthis like horrific moment.
Yeah.
And like I like, I'd forgottenabout that, and I laughed.
And like I remember reallyliking his performance as a kid.
(46:44):
You know, yeah.
Even though it's the kind oflike charming blowhard.
SPEAKER_03 (46:49):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01 (46:50):
Yeah.
He's that kind of like manic,charming blowhard.
And that actually, like, I dowant to get a little bit into
this film, it is a little bitprescient about like Inseldom,
because that's not exactlywhat's going on with Billy and
Stu.
But we find out at one pointthat Stu had dated Casey, Drew
Barrymore's character, and thatshe dumped him for her
(47:14):
boyfriend.
And so there's a motive therefor that first killing.
SPEAKER_00 (47:19):
For that very first murder.
There's also, even if it's notsort of about in involuntary
celibacy, there is sort of ajust deep control of women's
sexuality.
Not just Sidney's, but hermother's.
Yes.
And entitlement.
I mean, even like naming therating, like, why are you
(47:39):
entitled to an X-rated film withyour girlfriend?
That's not a thing that you justget.
Yeah.
You know, there are two peoplehere and like, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (47:48):
Yeah.
I found Billy like I wish again,I wish I could watch this for
the first time as an adult, justto see.
Like, I found him greasy andawful.
SPEAKER_00 (48:03):
Yeah, just your description is reprehensible.
I haven't seen nothing endearingabout him whatsoever.
SPEAKER_01 (48:08):
I cannot remember.
If you found him charming.
If I yeah.
I just can't remember.
I can't remember how I saw himthe first time I saw it.
And then and since then, everytime I've seen it, I know he's
the killer.
So like I just I don't know.
Right.
So it's very hard to say.
I do want to, like, we mentionedlike just the meta commentary of
Harvey Weinstein and RoseMcGowan.
(48:28):
Like it's known that he rapedher.
Oh god, yes.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:31):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01 (48:31):
And then ruined her career.
Because she didn't.
Because she would, she wouldn'tshut up about it.
Yeah.
Quote unquote.
Right.
Um, which is what he wanted herto do.
And I see that there's somethingthere's some a weird parallel, I
feel like, in what happens toher character, in that it is
(48:52):
made relatively clear that sheshe and Stu are sexually active.
It's not explicit.
We don't know for sure.
But the way that she talks toSydney, the way that she
dresses, the way that she acts,the way that she and Stu act
together, it seems reasonablyclear.
She is also outspoken, strong.
(49:14):
She takes no shit from anyone.
And she's killed trying toescape.
And she's killed trying toescape.
She is alone in the garagebecause Stu says to her, Hey,
can you get me more beer fromthe garage?
And she actually says, like,what am I, the beer wench?
And instead of like, and that'sone of the things that that I
actually this time I was like,instead of being like, no, get
(49:38):
it yourself, which is what todayRose McGowan would say, what
today me would say, 17-year-oldTatum Riley and 20-something
Rose McGowan wanting to getalong and be like, okay, yeah,
okay.
Like, what am I the beer wench,but all right, you know, because
(49:59):
she is a badass, but she wantsto have a career.
And so that puts her in a placeto be vulnerable and then
punished for being outspoken fortaking shit from no one.
And that's horrifying.
SPEAKER_03 (50:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:17):
And I don't know, like, I don't know where to put
that.
Like, is this commentary onthat?
Like, obviously, I I'm certainKevin Williamson had no idea of
that.
And like, mm-mm.
SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
Like No, it's not, it's just one of the ways that
life that art imitates life andlife imitates art, I think.
Rather than being like anintentional commentary.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (50:37):
Yeah.
I have always been saddened bythe fact that this like badass
character who I love, who drivesa Volkswagen Beetle, by the way.
SPEAKER_00 (50:51):
And do you want to tell the listeners why that's
important to me?
Listeners Emily saved up andbought herself a Volkswagen
Beetle when she was uh 16 16?
So 17.
This was 16.
Yeah.
She saved up and bought it withher own money.
It was a very big deal.
It was a very bigaccomplishment.
SPEAKER_01 (51:06):
At the time that I went to see this, I would have
driven my yellow Volkswagen 1972Volkswagen Super Beetle to the
theater to see this movie.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (51:14):
So we are at time.
There's so much here, so I'm notsurprised.
But I wanna like, is thereanything that we didn't name
that you want to make sure thatyou say before I try to see if I
can reflect back some highlightsat you.
SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
I wish the film franchise hadn't continued as
long as it did.
I haven't seen Past Scream Threeor Four again because of that
experience in around 2000, 2001.
I have no idea where it's gone.
Like it I know they continued tohave metacommentary.
I remember when I saw whateverthe one I saw was, I think it
(51:50):
was four.
I was thinking, like, actuallyit would be fitting and kind of
interesting if Sydney were nowghostface, even though I don't
want that for her as acharacter, but just like if
you're gonna continue with thetrope subverting and the
metacommentary, that would beinteresting.
But like it's like what happenswith long-running sitcoms.
(52:10):
You end up pushing thecharacters to the point where
they're caricatures.
SPEAKER_00 (52:15):
Yeah, yeah.
You move that window of what'sacceptable.
It just keeps moving until it'stotally absurd.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (52:23):
Listeners, if if you have continued to watch this
franchise.
Scream franchise, y you might beable to tell me if it's Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (52:30):
Let us know, please.
Yeah.
Find us on socials.
We're on Instagram and Facebook.
We'll put links, make sure thelinks are in the show notes to
our socials.
All right.
So just in time for Halloween,we are talking about this
original Scream movie, which mysister has complicated feelings
about because it is the filmthat made her fall in love with
(52:52):
horror.
But also then she was horrifiedseveral years later when a peer
was murdered in college and sherealized that she was being
entertained by murder.
There's a lot, like it's kind ofright, rife, ripe, whatever.
Complicated.
So this movie, like one of thethings that's really cool about
(53:14):
this movie is the way in whichit winks at the audience, not
through fourth wall breaking,but through something that is
adjacent, whereby the characterskind of know what genre movie
they're in.
They say out loud what the rulesof the genre are, and then they
break those rules.
And there's something reallydelightful about that.
There's also like a constantlike misdirection and sort of
(53:37):
subversion of expectationsbeyond the scare that keeps the
intellectual viewer on theirtoes and is like a good kind of
challenge, which for SmartyPantslike us is titillating in the
best way.
So that included like killingoff the like big name actor
character in the first 10minutes with Drew Barrymore.
(53:59):
It also included likemisdirection with the sheriff's
boots and other things.
So that even though, even as anavid consumer of mysteries,
Emily didn't know who done itthe first time that she watched
it.
And I heard several times yousort of saying, like, now I
wonder if I watched it for thefirst time now about various
things, not just the mystery,but also sort of the way that
(54:22):
you kind of perceive some of thecharacters.
Notably, this very feministcharacter of Sydney.
She's a badass, she's tough, shelike subverts expectations, like
in the moment where she's like,I'm calling your bluff and
sticks her finger up her noserather than giving the middle
finger, which would have beenkind of expected.
(54:43):
It's like it's she's sounexpected in like really like
spitting in your face kind ofways, not only of the person
who's menacing her, but of thesociety that would shit on
teenage girls.
And that's really like abeautiful thing.
You expressed actual gratitudeto Kel Kevin Williamson, the
screenwriter, and to Wes Craven,the director.
(55:05):
And I would expect, like, alsothe Nev Nev Campbell, the
actress, who embodied thischaracter for this character of
Sydney, her framework for sex,her relationship with sex,
right?
She has boundaries, which shedefends.
Ultimately, she does have sex.
It's a mistake.
(55:26):
The man did not deserve hertrust, but she is not punished
for it.
At least not with her life.
The movie does not sort of makea moral judgment of Sydney for
having had sex.
And there's something thatyou're grateful about that.
SPEAKER_01 (55:44):
I also just want to say, like, like Nancy Thompson,
she is vulnerable, but thatdoesn't take away from her
strength.
SPEAKER_00 (55:53):
Right.
Right.
Nancy Thompson being the lastgirl standing from the Freddie,
the original Freddie Kruegermovie, which is called Nightmare
on Elm Street, and I alwaysforget.
So some of the ways that it liketalks about the tropes and then
subverts them, Roger Ebert said,like, this is deconstruction,
but not in an intellectual way.
It's like in a very practicalway, like the self-heating soup
(56:14):
can, which who knew that was athing in the 90s, I guess Roger
Ebert did.
I still don't really get themetaphor, but that's okay.
I'm gonna leave it.
So we talked a lot about, orsome about comedy and horror,
and we talked about it in theabstract and the ways in which
comedy and horror occupy similarspaces, both physiologically in
(56:35):
the human body, but also like inthe intellectual or
psychological space, emotionalspace of comedy is tragedy plus
time.
Horror is tragedy immediate.
And so the ways in which thosetwo things travel together, I
find it really fascinating thatthe producers were able to get
(56:57):
the rating that they want whenthey invited the ratings board
to look at it as comedy ratherthan a horror.
Like tragedy in the immediate,apparently, our society believes
needs to have some sort oflesson, but comedy does not,
which I also find really, reallyfascinating.
I think we could probably do awhole show about that.
We spent a little bit of timetalking about the way that life
(57:21):
imitates art with Rose McGowan'scharacter, who is a total
badass.
She's outspoken, she takes noguff.
And she has sex with the wrongdude.
And Rose McGowan, the actress,who had non-consensual sex with
the wrong dude, and both thecharacter and the actress were
(57:43):
attacked trying to escape.
So there's something reallypoignant and just heartbreaking
about that, and that you sawthat heartbreak as a 17-year-old
without knowing the story of theactress and the producer who
preyed upon her.
I think that's everything thatwe talked about.
(58:06):
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_01 (58:08):
I think just the tidiness of the film in terms of
like tidy writing, like which Ialways delights me.
Always appeals to you.
Yeah.
But one of the things, and Ididn't mention this earlier, but
one of the things the reason whythey ended up killing off the
principal was because theyrealized that there was like uh
30 minutes of the movie wherenobody died.
(58:28):
It wasn't originally supposedto, but they realized, like, oh,
they killed him off.
And then that gave an excuse forthe remainder of the party to
leave because they went to go.
And so at like that kind ofthing just delights me with that
kind of like behind the scenesinto storytelling because it
gets to human nature becauseit's horrifying that the kids
(58:49):
are like, oh, let's go see himbefore they cut him down.
But at the same time, yeah, itsounds about right.
And it also makes the finalconfrontation like it makes it
make sense rather than justlike, all right, well, better
get going, which is the onlyother reason why like six kids
(59:10):
would be leaving.
Right.
So that's just it's phenomenal.
It's amazing.
And I just I love hearing thosestories about how a story comes
to be cool.
SPEAKER_00 (59:22):
All right.
Next week, Em, I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
the Steve Martin film The Jerk.
Ah.
I was born a poor black child.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And we are going to talk aboutthat.
SPEAKER_01 (59:36):
Okay.
Yes.
All right.
Well, I'll see you then.
SPEAKER_00 (59:40):
This show is a labor of love, but that doesn't make
it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the show.
With your people.
(01:00:03):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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