May 13, 2025 • 60 mins
Mickey's a mouse, Donald's a duck, Pluto's a dog. What's Goofy?
Emily and Tracie always assumed their father loved the 1986 Rob Reiner film Stand By Me because the music and pop culture references were a delightful reminder of his childhood. Reiner’s period masterpiece features incredible performances from its child actors–a rarity in movies about childhood–and offers a sometimes-idyllic portrayal of the freedom enjoyed by kids in the 1950s.
But as Emily discovered this week, Stand By Me is not nostalgic for the toxic masculinity, mental health struggles, abuse, and neglect that were normal for a mid-century boyhood. This coming-of-age story is clear-eyed about what was harmful in the late 1950s while celebrating the joy and unintentional comedy of adolescent friendships.
If you have also wondered what the hell Goofy is, throw on your headphones and take a listen.
CW: Discussions of parental abuse and neglect, fatphobia, violence against children
Mentioned in this episode:
Everything There and Around Us
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rob Reiner did this thing to before they started
shooting.
He had the four boys at a hotelfor two weeks where they just
hung out and they played actingexercises so that they could
bond.
They became actual friends.
There are points in there wherethey really are like playing
off of each other becausethey've become friends.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
(01:01):
the 1986 film Stand by Me withmy sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's dive in.
Know you've seen this film itwas on regular rotation at our
dad's house, so but just tell mewhat's in your head about Stand
by Me.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I haven't seen it in a long time but yeah, it's
definitely definitely seen itmany times.
So what I remember is the dadloved it and like I had, I think
, from him explicitly a sensethat, like watching this movie
helped me understand hischildhood.
In terms of the actual likeplot of the movie, I remember a
(01:35):
group of adolescent boys youngadolescent boys go on like a
long walk to see a dead body.
I remember that there's a framestory with a writer at the
beginning and the end who'sremembering.
He's like in contemporary time,in the 80s, remembering his
childhood, I guess in the 50s or60s, and in my head it's a
(01:57):
Stephen King book.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
That's correct.
That was one thing I rememberdad being like I can't believe
one of my favorite movies youknow came from because dad was
not into horror.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Not a horror fan, yeah, yeah, and like.
I remember feeling sort of sad,but I don't actually remember
what happens on the long walk tosee the dead body.
Train tracks feature, I think.
And then I I have very clearmemory of the sort of frame
(02:29):
story author standing up fromhis typewriter and like walking
away from it, like, and like thelast words being like something
like I.
I never had friends like that.
Again, jesus does anybody.
I don't know why that stands onmy head, but it really does and
that's it.
That's what I got, that's whatI.
But why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, there's a couple of reasons.
Some of it is just it kind ofcame up.
So we have plenty of moviesthat we watched with our dad
that we are revisiting.
A lot of this project is aboutour dad.
That's part of it.
Talking about it today, in partbecause this was a film I knew
(03:09):
intimately.
I knew it very, very well andin fact I remembered it pretty
well from childhood.
But this was the first time Ihad seen it, I think since
becoming an adult.
I think I had seen it incollege, so like basically an
adult, but still I reallyresonated with the kids.
This is the first time I'veseen it as an adult with
(03:29):
children, and my children areabout the age of the boys in
this film and this is asituation where the movie hasn't
changed.
But I have and it was a very,very different experience
watching this film and it was alot sadder than I remembered it,
in part because there werethings that I understood I
(03:53):
understand now that werecompletely outside of my ability
, my framework to understand asa small child, to understand as
a small child.
So I really wanted to kind ofexplore that and we're recording
this on April, 25th April's aweird month because we lost our
dad on April 5th 2013, and hisbirthday is April 20th.
(04:16):
So April is a month I spendthinking about our dad.
So that's also part of it.
Was watching this movie is kindof a tribute to our dad is part
of it.
And then realizing, like afterI watched it, I was like I
really should have watched thiswith my boys, and I think I'm
going to watch it again in thenext couple of days to show it
to them.
So that's where I'm coming fromwith this.
(05:08):
Since it's been so long and forour listeners, I'll kind of get
into years old.
In the summer of 1959, thefirst time I saw a dead human
being.
It was a long time ago, butonly if you're measuring it by
years.
And so we are introduced togordon, also known as gordy la
chance, played by will wheaton,who was 12 years old almost 13
(05:37):
when the film was was made.
He has three best friends.
The closest is chris chambers,who was played by river phoenix.
Then there's teddy duchamp, whowas played by Corey Feldman,
and Vern Tessio, played by JerryO'Connell.
So it starts off.
We meet these four boys.
It's right towards the end ofsummer and Vern comes to.
They've got a tree house wherethey hang out and he comes in
(05:58):
all excited.
He had been under his porchbecause he had buried a mason
jar of pennies under there atthe beginning of the school year
and he'd drawn a map forhimself so he could find it
again.
But then his mother cleaned hisroom and threw out the map.
So all year he's been diggingunder this porch.
And, by the way, this takesplace in a fictional town called
(06:18):
Castle Rock, oregon.
As with many Stephen Kingadaptations, king set it in
Maine and then the film puts itin Oregon, so they can still
talk about Portland.
That's funny.
I don't know why that's soweird.
And he overheard his bigbrother, billy, talking to his
(06:44):
friend Charlie about Ray Brower,the boy from a nearby town
who'd gone missing three daysbefore.
He was a 12-year-old, and soGordy and his friends had paid
close attention to it because itwas a kid their age.
So the older brother and hisfriend Charlie had stolen a car
and gone joyriding and comeacross the body and they were
(07:06):
talking about where they hadfound it.
And Vern overheard all of this.
They didn't want to report thebody because they were afraid
they'd get in trouble for havingstolen the car.
So Billy and Charlie are justthey're keeping it to themselves
.
So Vern comes to his friends.
He says hey, there's a body,let's go find it and we'll be
heroes, we'll get in the news.
(07:26):
And so they all agree They'lltell their parents they're
sleeping at each other's housesand they're going to walk the 20
to 30 miles to get to wherethis boy's body is and bring it
back so they can get on the news.
Body is and bring it back sothey can get on the news.
All of the boys are excitedabout it, except for Gordy.
(07:52):
He says, yes, I'll go, but youcan tell by his affect he's not
feeling great about it.
They each go to their homes toget the stuff they'll need to go
to camp out.
And that's when we learn thatGordy describes himself as being
the invisible boy that summerbecause his older brother, denny
, had died in April in a carcrash.
And it's clear he's trying toget his parents' attention to
(08:13):
ask where his canteen is, andhis mother just isn't paying any
attention.
His father says it's in Denny'sroom.
So he goes in to get it and hisfather basically confronts him
in Denny's room like, closes thedoor, making it clear that this
room is now a shrine to theirolder son, who is clearly the
golden boy.
And Gordy's father says whycan't you have friends like
(08:35):
Denny's?
And he describes Gordy'sfriends as a thief and two
phoebes, which is just so gross.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I don't know what that means.
What does that mean?
I?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
think he means that they are feeble-minded, or?
Oh, so Teddy and Vern are notscholars?
Okay.
And then there's also it mighthave something to do with
feeble-bodied, because Teddy hasa screwed up ear and he wears
very thick glasses.
The screwed up ear is becausehis father is very abusive and
(09:09):
had held his ear to a stove.
Vern is the fat kid, eventhough watching it now, he just
looks like a normal kid to me.
I mean he is.
The thing that I noticed whilewatching it is because when I
was watching it as a kid, I wasyounger than 12.
And so they just look like kidsto me.
(09:30):
Will Wheaton's Gordy remindedme of my younger son, who's 11
right now, who is just skinny asa rail.
Children come in all shapes andsizes, but compared to Gordy,
vern is chunky, but he grew upto be Jerry O'Connell, right,
right, it's just, it's a way ofbeing a kid, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So Gordy's dad is comparing not just Gordy to
Denny, but Gordy's friends toDenny's friends.
Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
We see some flashbacks where Gordy remembers
Denny, who was played by JohnCusack, who was like 18 or 19
years old and playing thatcharacter.
It's clear that Denny was agreat big brother and saw Gordy
and was the only person in thehouse who did, because Gordy
writes stories and Dennyencourages him and wants him to
(10:23):
do that.
Nobody else cares because Dennyis the football player and he
has the pretty girlfriend andhe's like all conference or, you
know, all state, whatever it is, so he's the golden child and
Denny's or, excuse me, gordy isthe afterthought.
They meet up in the town ofCastle Rock.
Gordy meets Chris.
First Gordy is wearing theYankees hat that his brother
(10:46):
gave him and Chris says hey,check it out.
And he shows that he stole hisfather's pistol and he also
stole some ammunition.
And so they are behind a dinerand like, of course they're very
excited about it.
And Gordy's like it's notloaded right.
And Chris is like no, of coursenot.
And so Gordy pulls the triggerand it was loaded and shoots a
(11:08):
trash can and they run off.
Gordy's really angry at Chrisand Chris says I swear, I pinky
swear, I didn't know it wasloaded.
They run into one of the olderboys, that Billy and Charlie,
vern's older brother and hisfriend, hang with.
Ace, played by KieferSutherland as a real sociopath,
(11:30):
he steals Ace and then alsoEyeball, who is Chris's older
brother.
So, eyeball Chambers, theysteal the Yankees cap.
Gordy's like give it back, thatwas my brother's, give it back.
And they don't care.
Like the whole town knows thatDenny has died and they don't
care that they've taken thisfrom this grieving boy.
And so Chris like startsinsulting Ace but they're
(11:53):
clearly so much bigger thanthese you know 12-year-old boys
until Ace like gets him down onthe concrete and holds a
cigarette to his face and saysapologize.
And so he does and Gordy haslost the hat.
They meet up with Vern and Teddy.
Vern is kind of the comicrelief.
He's brought a comb with him sothey can comb their hair, so
(12:16):
they can look good when they'reon TV, when they're heroes and
they are talking about whatroute they're going to go.
They have to go through thejunkyard and Milo, who runs the
junkyard, runs off kids who gothrough there.
But they need to go throughthere because there's a water
pump there.
So they go to the junkyard,they flip coins to see who's
(12:50):
going to have to go buy the foodat a like.
There's a local little storewhere they can get some food and
Gordy is the one who loses thecoin flip.
And so while he's there, yousee the storekeeper shopkeeper
talking to Gordy, about Denny.
He's like shame about yourbrother.
You know, do you play football?
(13:11):
He was really good.
Well, if you don't playfootball, what do you do?
And Denny says I don't know, orexcuse me.
Gordy says I don't know.
When he gets back the boys areno longer where they had been
and he's like what's going on?
They had always heard that Milo, who runs the junkyard, has
this like really ferocious dognamed Chopper, that he had not
(13:34):
only taught Chopper to sickpeople but specifically to sick
balls.
Once Gordy realizes what'sgoing on, the other boys are
climbing the fence and so hehears Milo shout chopper sick.
And he says I know he saidchopper sick him, but I heard
chopper sick balls.
And so he like runs hellbentfor leather, just manages to
(13:56):
make it over the fence and thenhe turns around and it's not a
dog you want having chasing you,but it's not the like ferocious
hellhound that he was expecting.
And he says that was my firstexperience of myth of reality
not living up to the myth.
So they end up because all fourof the boys are surprised at
how small the dog is.
(14:17):
They're taunting himspecifically Teddy, who is?
They call him the craziestperson they knew.
Who is?
They call him the craziestperson they knew?
So he really pushes theenvelope all the time.
So Milo comes over and startstaunting Teddy, saying that his
dad is a loony.
Teddy has said my dad stormedthe beach in Normandy and the
(14:38):
guy starts saying he's in theloony bin.
He's loony.
So it's clear that his fatherhas some pretty severe PTSD, to
the point where and then Teddytakes it so hard that he's like
I'm going to tear your head offand like is trying to get over
to fight this guy who's a fullgrown man.
And Chris manages to pull himaway and Teddy is like sobbing,
(15:02):
like he just he ranked on my oldman.
He ranked on my old man.
And the voiceover says I had ahard time understanding why
Teddy was so attached to hisfather, who beat the shit out of
him and like abused him alwaysand like I couldn't give a crap
about my father, who hadn'traised a hand to me since I was
three years old, and that wasbecause I was eating bleach to
(15:24):
hand to me since I was threeyears old and that was because I
was eating bleach.
So they get Teddy calmed downand they keep going and they
start talking a little bit aboutwhat they expect to find.
When they find Ray Brower'sbody and they start it was still
very childlike understanding ofit they're like, oh man, what
if his body looks like this orthat or the other?
And again, all the boys exceptGordy are the ones who are kind
of thinking about this andthey're thinking about like the
(15:47):
kind of horror aspect of it.
Only Gordy really seems tounderstand the gravity of it was
hit by a train.
And they get to a point wherethere's a trestle bridge and
they're like maybe we should godown to.
(16:07):
You know there's a bridge overthe river like this way, but
it's five miles down.
That way it's gonna be a lotfaster to just go across the
trestle bridge.
Well, when's the next traincoming?
I'm sure it'll be fine.
Well, what do we do if it comes?
Just jump, you jump into theriver.
(16:28):
It's 100 feet, it's fine.
So Chris and Teddy are ahead.
Gordy is stuck behind Vern whois like scared and kind of going
on all fours when a trainstarts coming, and so Chris and
Teddy make it to the other sideand Vern is like terrified and
like kind of like clinging to it, and Gordy's like we're gonna
die, and so they run and theyjust manage to escape.
They jump off the side of thebridge just as it gets to where
(16:48):
it's on land again, and so it'sterrifying.
It's a terrifying moment Oncethey get to a place where they
camp, they make dinner, theytalk about all the things that
were the serious things that youworry about before you've
discovered girls, and so there'sthis very funny scene where
they're talking about you know,if Mickey's a mouse and Donald's
(17:16):
a duck and Pluto is a dog, whatis goofy?
You know, it's just this lovelyscene.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Do they talk about the fact that, like Mickey, only
wears pants?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
but Donald only wears a shirt.
No, they didn't get to that.
And there's also Vern says if Icould only eat one food for the
rest of my life, easy Pez,cherry Pez.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's so disgusting.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
So they go to bed, they go to sleep and they are
woken up by howls in the nightthat are probably coyotes.
But Teddy starts teasing Vernlike oh no, it's Ray's ghost.
Ray's ghost is coming to getyou.
And so they decide to keepwatch overnight.
And so Teddy takes the firstwatch.
They hold the pistol.
Teddy is obsessed with themilitary because of his father
(18:02):
and so he's like talking tohimself like Corporal Teddy
Duchamp, and they're like wouldyou shut up?
We're trying to sleep.
Then we see Vern with thepistol.
He has the next watch and likeevery cricket cheap, he goes.
It's like pointing a gun inevery direction and it's just
like it's a really good thing.
None of these kids shot theirfoot off.
(18:22):
Chris has the third shift andwhile he is keeping watch, Gordy
is having a nightmare and wesee it where it's at Denny's
funeral, and it's clearly thisis a dream, it's not a flashback
.
But it's also not entirelyclear if this is like, if this
is his guilt or his belief.
But his father turns to him andsaid it should have been you,
(18:45):
gordy, yeah.
And so Gordy wakes up and hegoes to talk to Chris and says I
didn't cry at Denny's funeraland Chris is just really lovely.
They end up talking more.
The reason why Gordy's fathercalled Chris a thief is because
(19:09):
he got suspension for stealingthe milk money at school and
everyone knows that the Chambersfamily is bad.
It's a bad family and sothere's no way Chris is going to
escape it.
Everyone knows it, even Chris.
And so they're talking aboutthat.
And Chris says nobody evenasked me, they just gave me a
three-day vacation.
And Gordy says did you take themoney?
(19:31):
And he says yeah, I did.
You knew I did, teddy knew Idid, I bet even Vern knew I did.
And then they're quiet for alittle bit and he says but maybe
I felt bad about it and maybe Itook it to Old Lady Simon's to
return it, and then maybe themoney didn't get back to where
it belonged.
But old lady Simons came in thenext week in a new skirt.
Gordy's like oh yeah, it wasbrown with like polka dots, oy,
(20:00):
no-transcript.
And so the next morning, sinceGordy has the last watch, he's
the only one up and he's sittingon the train tracks reading one
of his magazines when a deercomes by and he has this kind of
moment that he communes withthe deer and the voiceover says
like I thought about telling theguys about it, but I ended up
(20:21):
not saying anything.
I've never spoken or writtenabout that deer until this
moment.
Not saying anything.
I've never spoken or writtenabout that deer until this
moment.
They are continuing along.
Meanwhile we keep seeing Ace andCharlie and Billy.
Charlie and Billy managed tokeep the secret for a full 36
hours, which is a personalrecord for them.
But then they finally end uptelling Ace and the other people
(20:41):
in that gang and Ace is like,oh, we're going to get that body
, we're going to be heroes.
And so they have two cars andthey're going to go get Ray
Brower's body.
And we see more instances ofAce being like just really cruel
and awful.
So the boys have to cross afield.
(21:04):
They could follow the traintracks to get to where Ray
Brower is, but it's going to be,they're going to save like an
hour if they cross a field.
They come upon like the swampand Chris like pokes at it.
It's just like, ok, it's nottoo deep, we can, we can go.
So they take one step and it'slike only up to their ankles,
and take the next step and it'sup to their their their necks
(21:25):
yeah, and so they start horsingaround and like Vern is like oh,
does this make you happy toTeddy?
and Teddy's like no, but thisdoes, and he starts like pushing
him down in the water andthey're horsing around.
Meanwhile, gordy is just kindof like trying to get across the
the water and his voiceoversays it was almost an obsession.
(21:45):
At this point, I needed, Ineeded to see that body.
Once they get across the waterand his voiceover says it was
almost an obsession.
At this point, I needed, Ineeded to see that body.
Once they get to the other sideand they're still horsing
around they realize that thelake is full of leeches.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Oh, I remember the leeches.
That was my first introductionto the like idea of them.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, mine too.
And so they like strip off andthey're pulling leeches off of
themselves and each other andthey're all just in their
underwear.
When Gordy like gets a strangelook on his face and like he
pulls his underwear away fromhis body and looks down, he's
like oh Chris, oh shit Chris.
And he pulls out a leech that'scovered in blood and like
(22:21):
throws it aside and then faintsjust falls over faints.
A little bit later he's stilllike he's, he's back to himself,
but he is not talking and likejust kind of staring off into
space.
They're all dressed again.
Chris says I think we shouldtake gordy home and like teddy
and verner are arguing with himuntil like they're almost coming
(22:44):
to blows, until Gordy like goes, stop it.
And then shouts stop it, notgoing back, keep going.
So they continue on.
They get to the road that theyknow is is near where where Ray
Brower is, and they continuealong the, the train tracks
until they find him and they see, basically just from his knees
(23:10):
down and there's like a KEDsneaker hanging from a tree and
you see, it really hit the otherthree boys.
What it is that they'rewitnessing, what it is that
they're witnessing.
They come over and Chris gets abranch and kind of lifts
because Ray is underneath likesome leaves and stuff like that
(23:31):
and lifts the branch up so theycan see his face and the
voiceover says the kid was dead,the kid was not sick, the kid
was not sleeping, he was dead.
And like it's, this real,visceral understanding of what
it is that has happened to thiskid is no longer an adventure.
(23:53):
This is real.
So Chris says let's find somelong branches so that we can
make a stretcher for him.
And Gordy sits down on a stumpand is like, sits down on a
stump and is like off again.
Chris sends Vern and Teddy togo find the branches and he sits
(24:13):
down.
Gordy says why did you have todie?
And he starts like really justsobbing, like I'm no good and my
dad hates me.
And Chris keeps saying hedoesn't hate you, he just
doesn't know you.
Which is heartbreaking initself.
(24:37):
And it's this very amazingtender moment between these two
boys where Chris is doing thebest he can to comfort his
friend for something that justthere is no friend, for
something that just there is nocomfort.
And then Ace shows up withseveral other, the teen boys.
He says we're taking the body.
Chris stands up to him and saysno, you're not Fair's fair.
(25:08):
We walked here, you drove, weearned this.
And Ace pulls out a knife.
Vern had left at the moment.
Ace showed up.
When he pulls out a knife,teddy, who is like fearless, is
like nope, too much for me.
And Chris is like then, fine,if you're going to have to kill
me, kill me.
So he's getting closer whenGordy shoots the gun in the air
(25:28):
to get everyone's attention.
So it becomes a standoffbetween Ace and Gordy.
And Ace says what are you goingto shoot all of us?
He's like no, just you.
And he's like you don't havethe balls.
He's like why don't you suck myfat one?
You dime store hood.
And he said no, one's takingthe body, you're leaving, we're
(25:52):
going to call it in when we gethome.
And because he has a gun andAce has brought a knife to a
gunfight, they stand down andthe boys use one of their
bedrolls to cover Ray and thenhead back home.
They say they made an anonymouscall when they got back to town
(26:16):
and then they each went home.
The voiceover tells us whathappens to each of them.
Vern got married right out ofhigh school, had four kids and
is now a forklift operator.
Teddy couldn't get into thearmy.
He tried several times butbetween his ear and his eyes he
was 4F.
He's been in jail several timesand is now doing odd jobs
around Castle Rock.
(26:37):
He and Chris did end up goinginto the college prep classes,
because that's something theytalked about before how Chris is
smart enough to go on thecollege prep classes.
But no one believes he can doit because he's a Chambers and
became a lawyer and life tookthem in separate directions and
he hadn't spoken to him in over10 years and he had just learned
that Chris was at a fast foodrestaurant when an argument
(27:02):
broke out between the two men inline ahead of him and always
the peacemaker.
He tried to intervene and hewas stabbed in the throat and
died almost instantly and so welearned.
That's why he is telling thisstory.
So we end with him at his very80s computer, green font on
(27:23):
black, and his son and a friendcome in and said Dad, we're
ready to go.
And he's like what's that?
His son's like Dad, we've beenready for an hour.
He's like oh, just give me afew minutes.
And the friend says he saidthat a half hour ago and the son
says, yeah, he gets like thiswhen he's writing.
So that's when he types in theline that you remember I've
(27:45):
never had friends in my lifeagain like I did when I was 12.
Jesus does anyone.
And then you see him go out andmeet the boys, have them get
into the car and they go towherever they're.
They have towels and clearlythey're going swimming and
there's something very hopefulabout that.
Ending Not short.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, concision is not exactly our forte.
Not good at concise.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So I want to talk about cycles of abuse as part of
this and toxic masculinity aspart of this, and like toxic
masculinity because what we seeover and over again, like the
reason why gordy doesn't feelseen, it isn't seen by his
parents, is because he does notmeet the 1959 ideal of what a
(28:39):
boy is supposed to be, right,he's.
He's shy and quiet andsensitive, and he's indoorsy.
He's indoorsy, yeah, andsensitive.
He's indoorsy.
He's indoorsy, yeah, and he's awriter and so he makes up
stories.
He's not an athlete, so he'snot an athlete.
The way that Ace treats thepeople in his gang, so when he
(29:00):
sees the children, he calls themgirls and ladies.
Consistently.
They use the word pussy todenigrate each other.
That is constantly what theyare saying to each other, and
this is something that Istruggled with as I was watching
yesterday, because the toxicmasculinity that we see is not
(29:22):
necessarily something I want toexpose my kids to, and I was
thinking about, like you know,how was this something that dad
was okay with exposing us to,but at the same time, it's not
saying that it's a good thing,like there are aspects of the
toxic cultural norms within both1959, as written by Stephen
(29:45):
King, and then the screenwritersfor this film and then the 1986
, where it didn't question someof them.
But the story is about thatmoment in time and it feels
important to see the toxic soupthat Gordy and Chris and Teddy
(30:08):
and Vern were swimming in.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's also the case that the worst perpetrator of it
is the villain right, and soit's not like our hero is, even
if he does sort of kind of playwith it, because that's what the
soup he's swimming in thevitriol is from the villain.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yes, yeah, very much so.
And then also from Gordy'sparents, who also are sort of
villainous, because we see aflashback of a dinner table of
the four members of the familyat dinner, where Denny is trying
to get his parents to hearabout Gordy's story that he
wrote and they don't care.
(30:52):
Like the mom goes, oh, gordy,that's lovely.
And like the dad is just likesee, you're splitting his
attention, he's got to focus onthe game.
And so poor Gordy only had thisone person in the house who saw
him and believed in him, andnow that guy's dead.
And now he's dead and he feelssurvivor's guilt Right that it
(31:16):
should have been him, because,like, the family would have been
okay without him, whereas thefamily is broken without Denny,
without Denny, yeah, is brokenwithout Denny, without Denny,
yeah.
And so that's one of the thingsto think about, like toxic
masculinity.
I think it's really importantthat the writer you know Gordy
as an adult has a son and it'sboys, because what we see at the
(31:41):
end is he is distracted, buthe's not ignoring his son and
his friend, right, and he hasmade sure to end that cycle by
when, you know, when he gets toa stopping point, and even
though he is overcome with grieffor the loss of his friend
(32:05):
Chris, and the way that hisfather was overcome with grief
for the loss of his son.
He knows his son needs him andhe takes him to go swimming and
to make good memories, and sothat's something I feel like I
did not get as a kid.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
And I feel like dad did, you know, like dad
recognized.
You know it's only a moment,but you see, gordy has grown up
to be a good father.
Gordy has grown up to recognizethat you center the children in
your life, even when you'redealing with personal heartbreak
because he is.
He is heartbroken that hisfriend Chris is gone, even
(32:46):
though and he says we hadn'tseen each other for 10 years,
but I know I will miss himforever.
And that is phenomenal.
And that also speaks to thereason why Chris is such an
amazing character is that it'sclear that he is also trying to
break the cycle of abuse in hisown life.
(33:08):
He's trying to break free fromwhat is expected of him.
You know, yeah, he took themoney, so he tried to do the
right thing when he realized,like I don't, I don't feel good
about this, and he was betrayedby an adult, right right, which
makes then sense too that hebecame a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yes, yes, One presumes a, you know a defense.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yes, and at every point he is trying to stop his
friends from making the choicesthat are going to hurt them.
So there's a point where, teddy, there's a train coming not on
the trestle bridge, it's beforethat and Teddy's like I'm going
to try to dodge the train andthey're like shouting at him get
off the tracks, get off thetracks.
Until finally Chris goes up andbodily carries him off the
(33:55):
tracks and Teddy's pissed at him, like I could have dodged it.
I could have dodged it.
And Chris actually is just likeyou know what you'll dodge one
on the way back.
I just didn't, you know, got tostay focused, and so he is
amazingly emotionallyintelligent.
Similarly, like he says to, atone point he is talking to Gordy
(34:18):
about like soon they're goingto be going to high school and
Gordy's going to be going tocollege classes.
Vern and Teddy are going to betaking shop and Chris assumes he
is too Gordy's like to be goingto the college classes.
Vern and Teddy are going to betaking shop and Chris assumes he
is too Gordy's like no, I wantto stay with you guys, I want to
be with my friends.
And Chris is like no, don't dothat.
That's ridiculous.
You could be a real writersomeday and Gordy goes fuck
writing, it's a waste of time.
(34:38):
Chris tells him like sometimesI wish I were your father.
And so he does take that kindof role with the other boys
where he is trying to give themthe guidance that they're not
getting at home and like protectthem from their own inner
demons.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Exactly yes.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Even though he has Outer demons, outer demons,
demons, outer demons.
That kind of speaks to hisemotional maturity and and
intelligence, that he is able tobe so giving and so comforting
to his friends, even while he'sdealing with these horrible
(35:19):
things and, additionally, his,his ability to recognize that
Gordy is right, that this is notan adventure, they're not there
to be heroes.
It's really that understandingof mortality is something that I
(35:40):
think Chris gets, that Teddyand Vern don't necessarily Gordy
kind of did from the beginning.
He's never been superenthusiastic about it Because of
Denny's death.
Yeah.
So it's really, it's poignant,it's beautiful, like how this
friend is able to provide forthese kids what they are not
(36:04):
getting, provide for these kidswhat they are not getting.
The thing that struck me lastnight because, again, as a kid I
was watching it and they wereolder than me because this came
out when I was seven and I knowI saw it around then and many,
many, many times after that andso like they were big kids and
then even when I saw it likelate teenager, early
(36:26):
20-something, I still felt likea kid.
Seeing it this time and seeinghow badly these kids are
betrayed by the adults in theirlives, with the exception of
Vern, vern seems to be the onlykid who basically he's fine
Teddy has been horrificallyabused.
(36:47):
Chris, we know nothing abouthis parents except that everyone
knows that it's a bad familyright.
And then gordy, it's kind ofmalignant neglect, it's not
benign neglect even yeah yeah,yeah, and through an
unimaginable grief which theparents went through.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
An unimaginable grief too, but they're adults,
they're parents Right, they'rethe grownups in the relationship
.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
So the fact that that is what really got me watching
it this time, especially as Imentioned, like Will Wheaton is
skinny little slip of a thing,as is my younger son, and so
like I really felt this likeparental sense of like the kid
(37:34):
needs a hug.
Yeah, take care of him, yeah,yeah, I hear that, I hear that
and then that's also the otherthing that I think really
resonated with dad is that dadhad two lifelong friends and dad
had not super easy childhood,yeah, and with the same kind of
toxic masculinity andexpectations For heaven's sake.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
His nickname was Butch.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Only in the 50s could you call a kid Butch Guy, not
ironically.
Only in the 50s could you calla kid butch guy, not ironically.
So that is the other aspect ofit is like.
I know that that resonated withdad the idea that you can get
the emotional support you needfrom friends that you're not
getting at home.
That to me this time around wasI kind of remember this being a
(38:30):
nostalgia film for dad and likeit is.
I mean in the same way thatlike Stranger Things is
nostalgic for, you know, for the80s, but I feel like Stranger
Things is a little moreintentional in it, whereas this
is a period piece, right, andthe thing is it's not something
you really want to go back tolike and it feels clear that
(38:51):
this is not something you wantto go back to, which I didn't
get as a kid, right right.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
it's an interesting point about nostalgia, because
we think about nostalgia as sortof a idealizing of the past,
and I don't think that's whatthis does Right, like Stranger
Things.
I don't know if it idealizes,but it certainly celebrates some
of the culture, like the musicand fashion and stuff a little
(39:17):
bit.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
And I will say the music is amazing In this film.
In this film.
It has an amazing soundtrack.
The music is amazing, and Ithink that's what I focused on
and then also the idea that,like four boys, could go off on
an adventure which was moresomething you could do in the
1980s, but you wouldn't havebeen able to do it overnight.
So like I know that there was alittle bit of a nostalgia for
(39:40):
that kind of like innocent time,of freedom.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Freedom, and theordy character certainly has
nostalgia for the friendshipsthat he had.
Yes, I mean, that's like thewhole point.
Yes, that's the line that Iremember.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yes, Jesus, does anyone yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
But that's more about like adolescence than about 59.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, and it really 1959 seems awful.
And it really 1959 seems awful.
I mean, like that a grown adultcould taunt a 12-year-old boy
about his father and considerthat perfectly okay, well, a
(40:21):
12-year-old boy who we knew wasbeing abused by that man and
Milo even says something abouthis ear.
He's like your father did thatto you and it's just like that
that would be considered.
Ok, yeah, that a teacher andI'm not saying that that
wouldn't happen now, but that ateacher could say like well, no
one will believe Chris, becausehe's a bad.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
So I'll buy myself a new skirt Buy myself a new skirt
with this free money.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Like I, I that aspect of it is like 1959 sounds awful
.
Let's keep the music there's,there's.
Uh, like it'd be nice if wecould have a little bit more
more freedom for for kids, sothey can, you know, have coming
of age moments that aren'thelicopter parented yeah,
(41:06):
although at the same time yousaid it's a.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
it's a good thing they didn't shoot themselves in
the foot.
It's a good thing they didn'tshoot one another Exactly.
I mean that's like the numberone cause of death in kids that
age today Exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
So, like, yeah, that's yeah, so it.
It made it clear how much and Idon't know if this is true of
all kids who were like childrenin the 50s, but it was common
enough that it resonated with somany people.
It is clearly an aspect ofStephen King's childhood and
(41:39):
he's, you know, four or fiveyears older than our parents.
Like I think he was born in 46.
I think, like summer from 1959,he was 12, going on 13.
Right, and our parents werenine.
Yeah, it is common enough, butthis idea that you were raising
yourself and that there was,like, the sphere that your
(42:00):
parents lived in was differentfrom the sphere that you lived
in, which is different from thesphere that the like older
teenagers lived in, and ne'erthe twain shall meet unless the
like older teenagers lived in,and near the twain shall meet
unless, like, the olderteenagers are trying to kill the
12 year olds.
Yeah, that sounds awful.
Like I wish that there weremore freedoms for small children
now than there often are, butlike the fact that these kids
(42:26):
were figuring all of this reallydeep shit out without a single
guide is horrifying.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, it's almost.
I want to call it clear-eyednostalgia.
It needs a different word,something about really taking a
hard look at the past, trying toremember what's good, but also
clear-eyed about what was notgood and conveying that, which
you know we don't always do withthese sort of.
You know, there's severalmovies that we've even talked
(42:59):
about, like Dirty Dancing, whichwas a bonus episode we talked
about.
That's like a Gen X touchstone,the movie that was telling a
boomer story.
This feels like another one,like that, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
And I think that's part of what, like what I'm
talking about, with realizinghow much toxic masculinity is
within this, but it it's notcelebrated.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Right, right, it's just.
Christmas story is another one.
Yes, it's a similar sort oflike Gen X Touchstone telling a
boomer story.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yes, and that one also has some, you know, toxic
masculinity and and andinteresting stuff yeah yeah,
it's more of a comedy than adrama, but still yeah and that's
.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I think that that's.
That's something that we'll see.
Each generation and like itchanges as as the media changes,
the media landscape changes.
But there's a reason why, likeStranger Things is telling a Gen
X story.
Mm, hmm, yep, totally.
(44:03):
And while there is humorthroughout this story, it is a
meditation on mortality Right,and there are multiple times
where the boys could have diedduring this story.
Understanding mortality andrecognizing that you have to
(44:25):
live while paying respect andfinding a balance between those
because Gordy's parents were notliving Right and the boys when
they first set out, at least thethree other than Gordy were not
paying respect, they didn'thave respect, it was just an
adventure, so like recognizing,like, oh my God, we could have
(44:46):
what could have happened to us,what could have happened to Ray
could have happened to us veryeasily.
Could have what could havehappened to us, what could
happen to Ray.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Could it happen to us ?
Very easily?
What happened to Ray could havehappened to us.
Yeah, very easily.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, allowing for mourning and allowing for grief
and allowing for recognition ofhow awful it is that Ray Brower
died Like that.
He wasn't asleep, he wasn'tsick, he was dead.
It's something that reallystuck with me in the image of
the body's face.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Oh, they show the kid's face.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
They show the kid's face.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
I didn't remember that I.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I remember the feet anyway, they said the, the train
had knocked him right out ofhis kids and like the, where it
just hits you.
This is, I mean I've said, real.
It's a, it's a fictional story,but like death is real, but
death is real, death is real andthis kid is really gone and
(45:49):
that's awful.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Before I wrap up, before we hit record, one of the
things that you listed that youwanted to maybe touch on was
child actors, and that'ssomething we haven't talked
about yet.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
One of the reasons why this movie works as well as
it does is because the four leadactors are amazing, and all
four of them have gone on, withthe exception of River Phoenix.
Phoenix, whose life wastragically cut short.
Because he died, have gone on todo pretty big things.
So Will Wheaton obviously wenton to Star Trek the Next
Generation and because of thisfilm was probably the highest
(46:20):
profile name attached to theNext Generation at the time.
Corey Feldman had a long career.
He's no longer acting but he'sstill in entertainment.
Jerry O'Connell is still acting.
He's married to Rebecca Romijn,who plays Mystique, and there's
a retrospective and I'llinclude a link in the show notes
(46:42):
talking about how Rob Reinerchose these child actors and one
of the things that Will Wheatonsays is that basically they're
playing themselves.
Because he was a very shy andintroverted boy who was very
sensitive, corey Feldmanexperienced unimaginable abuse
(47:02):
from his parents.
Jerry O'Connell was a goofballand really enjoyed getting
played.
The comic relief River Phoenixwas this phenomenal actor and he
did have that kind of emotionalIQ.
But he was such a good actorthat they, because they were
having trouble casting Teddy,they considered giving him that
part until they found CoreyFeldman.
(47:29):
Reiner did this thing to beforethey started shooting.
He had the four boys at a hotelfor two weeks where they just
hung out and they played actingexercises there's like this
famous book of acting exercisesso that they could bond and they
, they became actual friendsthere.
There are points in there wherethey they really are like
playing off of each otherbecause they've become friends.
And in this retrospectiveReiner talks about at one point
(47:51):
Vern has no lines and he's notdoing anything and was not doing
anything in the scene and RobReiner said to him what are you
doing?
He's like I don't have any lines.
He's like you're still in thescene.
What would you be doing if thisyou know were really happening?
And so like that was reallyinteresting, like because you do
have to teach children thecraft.
Like you know it's a12-year-old, they don't know.
This gets to like.
(48:11):
Another reason why this moviereminds me so much of Dad is Dad
had strong opinions about childactors.
It was horrific to him the waysthat child actors were and
still are probably abused by thesystem.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, yeah, exploited , and I his sense was that they
just had their childhood stolenfrom them.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yes, and so it's clear to me that Rob Reiner
didn't do that.
Like Rob Reiner was not, youknow, like what they did to Judy
Garland.
This was not a thing where it'slike dance, monkey dance, and I
don't know that Rob Reiner,like I'm sure he didn't know
that Corey Feldman was beingabused.
I'm sure he didn't know that.
But there is something likereally tragic to me about the
(48:56):
fact that Corey Feldman was ableto play that character so well
because he himself was feelingso much anger and despair over
the kind of exploitation andabuse that his parents were
putting him through.
And like I don't have an answerto that, I don't have an answer
to how do we look at that when,like that was a smart way to
(49:36):
cast the.
So one thing Will Wheaton hassaid this was not the first
thing he was ever in, but it waslike the first big thing he was
in and it's the best thing he'sever been in.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
In your opinion.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
He said that, oh, okay.
He said that, okay, okay, andthat it's tough for him because
he feels like he's been in asophomore slump ever since he
peaked at 12.
Yeah, and which I like thatwould be tough, that would
really be tough.
Like you know, you peakedbefore you even knew what you
were doing.
(50:11):
Yeah, and one thing he saidthat really stuck with me in
this article when River Phoenixdied, he was really angry
because Phoenix was the one whowas supposed to go on and become
the Tom Hanks.
Tom Hanks, he was the one whowas supposed to go on and do
these amazing things, like thiswas the best thing that Wil
(50:33):
Wheaton ever did, and that'sokay, because River Phoenix was
on to do amazing things.
And that broke my heart alittle bit too.
Sort of meta with the movie, yes, and that's something that
people talk about is the factthat River Phoenix died seven
years later and there is thissense that he and Chris Chambers
are very much the same personin some ways, and I know dad
(51:02):
would have opinions about this,this.
Yeah, so there is one otherthing that I want to talk about
real quick and that is fatphobia, because the film does a
I think, does a very good job ofmaking it clear.
1959 sucked.
But the thing that isunexamined is the fat phobia,
(51:24):
and it's just a given that it'sokay to make fun of people for
being fat and to judge peoplefor being fat.
Do you remember the story thatGordy tells in the middle about
Davy Hogan, who everybody calledLardass?
No, so he has written thisstory and he tells it to the
boys over the campfire about aboy named Davy Hogan, who's
(51:45):
their age but he's like 180pounds.
But it's not his fault, it'shis glands and everyone has
called him lard ass his entirelife.
And so he plans his revenge.
And it's a pie eating contest.
And so he enters the pie eatingcontest and he's there against
the mayor, the principal, thehigh school, the DJ, and they
(52:06):
got the actual, because theyhave music through the Portland
station playing often and youhear the DJ.
And they got the same actordoing the DJ and used the name.
So it's like Gordy isinhabiting this story with real
people in Castle Rock and on hisway in to join the pie eating
(52:29):
contest, one of the contestants,who's a grown man, trips him
and the whole crowd is just likehey, lord S, you have a nice
trip.
So once the pie eating conteststarts, he is winning.
And then Gordy says but hewasn't in it to win, he was in
it for revenge.
And before it it started hedrank an entire bottle of castor
oil and ate a raw egg so thathe would vomit.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
And so he does all over another contestant and it
causes like a barforama oh yeah,I vaguely, and they're all
throwing up on each other, allthrowing up on each other.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Remember that and it's a.
It's very gross.
It's 12-year-old boy kind ofstory.
It fits, as someone said, it'san 86-minute movie.
They spend five minutes in thisstory within a story.
Within a story.
Gordy sees people like he seesyou know how people treat lard
(53:33):
ass.
He finds a way to get therevenge and so clearly this Davy
Hogan is a stand in for himself, for feeling like he's, instead
of being made fun of, he'sunseen by the town.
But the assumptions built intothat story and the assumptions
built into the rest of whathappens in 1959 are not very
(53:54):
sensitive, are very fatphobic,which I didn't, you know, I
didn't see as a kid.
To remake this movie today,which I don't think we should do
because it's a masterpiece wewould change, because that is an
aspect of our culture that wenow recognize as harmful and it
(54:15):
would be like the way that theboys call each other the F word
or pussy, as like.
It might still be in there, butit would be clear that this is
not something to aspire to.
The clear that this is, this isan ugly part of our past right
right?
Speaker 2 (54:32):
yeah, well, shall I see if I can reflect back some
highlights at you?
Yeah, let's.
So this film, I think, is itgoes into the category of gen x
touchstone media that looks backat a boomer story.
We have several of those alongthe way and this one in
(54:52):
particular, like for us.
It is like it's nostalgic forus, for the guy, girls, because
our dad loved it so much.
It was nostalgic for himbecause it sort of captured the
feeling of being an adolescentin the late 50s and early 60s.
But there's something about itthat we named that's not an
(55:14):
idealistic nostalgia, so it's anostalgia that I want to call
clear-eyed.
It's a looking back thatappreciates the bits that were
good and in this case that waslike sort of the greater freedom
and autonomy that theseadolescents were able to afford
and also the deep friendships.
(55:34):
I mean that is the sort ofthesis, underlined thesis of
this movie is the friendshipsbetween these boys, but with a
sort of clear view of, like thetoxic masculinity the betrayal
is the word that you used ofadults, of their adolescent
children, their own offspring,their students, their neighbors,
(55:57):
and the ways in which they didnot protect these kids, spent
some time sort of leading up toand kind of talking about the
ways in which this film gives usmodels of breaking cycles of
abuse, both with Gordy and hisson that we see in the sort of
(56:18):
present the 1986 story framestory, but also with Chris, who
was trying to break himself outof the cycle of abuse as a
12-year-old in 59 and eventrying to sort of protect his
friends from their own demonsand from their parents' sort of
psychological influence andabuse which is really remarkable
(56:38):
.
I think it's remarkable even forwhen adults are able to do that
for one another, so that a12-year-old who was suffering
from his own sort of form ofkind of ongoing abuse, whether
from parents or from the townwho knew he was a bad kid, to be
able to try and intervenebecause Gordy's dad doesn't know
him, doesn't hate him butdoesn't know him.
(56:59):
That there's something reallyremarkable about that and I'm
even wondering if it's realisticthat we would think an
individual could do that.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I think so.
I think there are people whohave that kind of EQ, like a
native emotional intelligence.
The fact that he has alsosuffered from this abuse makes
him like kind of crystallizesthat, like sensitive to it.
Yes, yeah, I don't think it'scommon, but there is a reason
why, like Teddy and Vern slipaway from the friendship earlier
(57:31):
.
And it's because Gordy andChris have that kind of
sensitivity that Chris turnsoutward and Gordy turns inward
as a writer right, right.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
We also talked a bit about child actors and some of
the uncanny resonance betweenRiver Phoenix and his character
in this film, and also theunfortunate and sort of
heartbreaking truth behind CoreyFeldman's believable portrayal
(58:06):
of this abused boy, behind CoreyFeldman's believable portrayal
of this abused boy.
And then we ended with yourmeditations on fat phobia and
the ways in which this film inmany ways is clear-eyed about
the things that were toxic andunhealthy about culture in 59
and the ways in which it totallywasn't about fat phobia and
just absolutely missed it.
(58:27):
So I think that that's where welanded.
Let me just think.
I think that that captures thehighlights of what we talked
about.
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1 (58:37):
We talked a little bit about, like the living, even
when grieving, yes, and therespect for mortality.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Thank you, I think that's important.
Ultimately, this film really isa meditation on mortality and
what it means to live andcontinue to have relationships
while being open to grief andnot being shut down by grief.
Guilt and the ways in whichgordy's parents like exacerbated
the survivor's guilt by makingit clear he was not as good as
his old, his dead older brother.
That's a big piece of then.
What informs the relationshipbetween adult gordy and his kids
(59:19):
, now that he's reflecting onchris's death.
So, yeah, thank you forbringing that back up.
Cool, it's a masterpiece, ifyou haven't seen it recently.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
You should re-watch it.
It's, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
It's an amazing movie so next week I'm going to bring
you my thoughts about a filmthat probably I won't describe
as a masterpiece, when we aregoing to be talking about splash
, where, um daryl hannah is amermaid mm-hmm, it's where where
the name Madison came from.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Cool, all right.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
See you then.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
Talk to you, then this show is a labor of love,
but that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(01:00:14):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Rob Reiner did this thing to before they started
shooting.
He had the four boys at a hotelfor two weeks where they just
hung out and they played actingexercises so that they could
bond.
They became actual friends.
There are points in there wherethey really are like playing
off of each other becausethey've become friends.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture?
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
(01:01):
the 1986 film Stand by Me withmy sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and
with you, let's dive in.
Know you've seen this film itwas on regular rotation at our
dad's house, so but just tell mewhat's in your head about Stand
by Me.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, I haven't seen it in a long time but yeah, it's
definitely definitely seen itmany times.
So what I remember is the dadloved it and like I had, I think
, from him explicitly a sensethat, like watching this movie
helped me understand hischildhood.
In terms of the actual likeplot of the movie, I remember a
(01:35):
group of adolescent boys youngadolescent boys go on like a
long walk to see a dead body.
I remember that there's a framestory with a writer at the
beginning and the end who'sremembering.
He's like in contemporary time,in the 80s, remembering his
childhood, I guess in the 50s or60s, and in my head it's a
(01:57):
Stephen King book.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
That's correct.
That was one thing I rememberdad being like I can't believe
one of my favorite movies youknow came from because dad was
not into horror.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Not a horror fan, yeah, yeah, and like.
I remember feeling sort of sad,but I don't actually remember
what happens on the long walk tosee the dead body.
Train tracks feature, I think.
And then I I have very clearmemory of the sort of frame
(02:29):
story author standing up fromhis typewriter and like walking
away from it, like, and like thelast words being like something
like I.
I never had friends like that.
Again, jesus does anybody.
I don't know why that stands onmy head, but it really does and
that's it.
That's what I got, that's whatI.
But why are we talking about ittoday?
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, there's a couple of reasons.
Some of it is just it kind ofcame up.
So we have plenty of moviesthat we watched with our dad
that we are revisiting.
A lot of this project is aboutour dad.
That's part of it.
Talking about it today, in partbecause this was a film I knew
(03:09):
intimately.
I knew it very, very well andin fact I remembered it pretty
well from childhood.
But this was the first time Ihad seen it, I think since
becoming an adult.
I think I had seen it incollege, so like basically an
adult, but still I reallyresonated with the kids.
This is the first time I'veseen it as an adult with
(03:29):
children, and my children areabout the age of the boys in
this film and this is asituation where the movie hasn't
changed.
But I have and it was a very,very different experience
watching this film and it was alot sadder than I remembered it,
in part because there werethings that I understood I
(03:53):
understand now that werecompletely outside of my ability
, my framework to understand asa small child, to understand as
a small child.
So I really wanted to kind ofexplore that and we're recording
this on April, 25th April's aweird month because we lost our
dad on April 5th 2013, and hisbirthday is April 20th.
(04:16):
So April is a month I spendthinking about our dad.
So that's also part of it.
Was watching this movie is kindof a tribute to our dad is part
of it.
And then realizing, like afterI watched it, I was like I
really should have watched thiswith my boys, and I think I'm
going to watch it again in thenext couple of days to show it
to them.
So that's where I'm coming fromwith this.
(05:08):
Since it's been so long and forour listeners, I'll kind of get
into years old.
In the summer of 1959, thefirst time I saw a dead human
being.
It was a long time ago, butonly if you're measuring it by
years.
And so we are introduced togordon, also known as gordy la
chance, played by will wheaton,who was 12 years old almost 13
(05:37):
when the film was was made.
He has three best friends.
The closest is chris chambers,who was played by river phoenix.
Then there's teddy duchamp, whowas played by Corey Feldman,
and Vern Tessio, played by JerryO'Connell.
So it starts off.
We meet these four boys.
It's right towards the end ofsummer and Vern comes to.
They've got a tree house wherethey hang out and he comes in
(05:58):
all excited.
He had been under his porchbecause he had buried a mason
jar of pennies under there atthe beginning of the school year
and he'd drawn a map forhimself so he could find it
again.
But then his mother cleaned hisroom and threw out the map.
So all year he's been diggingunder this porch.
And, by the way, this takesplace in a fictional town called
(06:18):
Castle Rock, oregon.
As with many Stephen Kingadaptations, king set it in
Maine and then the film puts itin Oregon, so they can still
talk about Portland.
That's funny.
I don't know why that's soweird.
And he overheard his bigbrother, billy, talking to his
(06:44):
friend Charlie about Ray Brower,the boy from a nearby town
who'd gone missing three daysbefore.
He was a 12-year-old, and soGordy and his friends had paid
close attention to it because itwas a kid their age.
So the older brother and hisfriend Charlie had stolen a car
and gone joyriding and comeacross the body and they were
(07:06):
talking about where they hadfound it.
And Vern overheard all of this.
They didn't want to report thebody because they were afraid
they'd get in trouble for havingstolen the car.
So Billy and Charlie are justthey're keeping it to themselves
.
So Vern comes to his friends.
He says hey, there's a body,let's go find it and we'll be
heroes, we'll get in the news.
(07:26):
And so they all agree They'lltell their parents they're
sleeping at each other's housesand they're going to walk the 20
to 30 miles to get to wherethis boy's body is and bring it
back so they can get on the news.
Body is and bring it back sothey can get on the news.
All of the boys are excitedabout it, except for Gordy.
(07:52):
He says, yes, I'll go, but youcan tell by his affect he's not
feeling great about it.
They each go to their homes toget the stuff they'll need to go
to camp out.
And that's when we learn thatGordy describes himself as being
the invisible boy that summerbecause his older brother, denny
, had died in April in a carcrash.
And it's clear he's trying toget his parents' attention to
(08:13):
ask where his canteen is, andhis mother just isn't paying any
attention.
His father says it's in Denny'sroom.
So he goes in to get it and hisfather basically confronts him
in Denny's room like, closes thedoor, making it clear that this
room is now a shrine to theirolder son, who is clearly the
golden boy.
And Gordy's father says whycan't you have friends like
(08:35):
Denny's?
And he describes Gordy'sfriends as a thief and two
phoebes, which is just so gross.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I don't know what that means.
What does that mean?
I?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
think he means that they are feeble-minded, or?
Oh, so Teddy and Vern are notscholars?
Okay.
And then there's also it mighthave something to do with
feeble-bodied, because Teddy hasa screwed up ear and he wears
very thick glasses.
The screwed up ear is becausehis father is very abusive and
(09:09):
had held his ear to a stove.
Vern is the fat kid, eventhough watching it now, he just
looks like a normal kid to me.
I mean he is.
The thing that I noticed whilewatching it is because when I
was watching it as a kid, I wasyounger than 12.
And so they just look like kidsto me.
(09:30):
Will Wheaton's Gordy remindedme of my younger son, who's 11
right now, who is just skinny asa rail.
Children come in all shapes andsizes, but compared to Gordy,
vern is chunky, but he grew upto be Jerry O'Connell, right,
right, it's just, it's a way ofbeing a kid, okay.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
So Gordy's dad is comparing not just Gordy to
Denny, but Gordy's friends toDenny's friends.
Yes, yes, okay.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
We see some flashbacks where Gordy remembers
Denny, who was played by JohnCusack, who was like 18 or 19
years old and playing thatcharacter.
It's clear that Denny was agreat big brother and saw Gordy
and was the only person in thehouse who did, because Gordy
writes stories and Dennyencourages him and wants him to
(10:23):
do that.
Nobody else cares because Dennyis the football player and he
has the pretty girlfriend andhe's like all conference or, you
know, all state, whatever it is, so he's the golden child and
Denny's or, excuse me, gordy isthe afterthought.
They meet up in the town ofCastle Rock.
Gordy meets Chris.
First Gordy is wearing theYankees hat that his brother
(10:46):
gave him and Chris says hey,check it out.
And he shows that he stole hisfather's pistol and he also
stole some ammunition.
And so they are behind a dinerand like, of course they're very
excited about it.
And Gordy's like it's notloaded right.
And Chris is like no, of coursenot.
And so Gordy pulls the triggerand it was loaded and shoots a
(11:08):
trash can and they run off.
Gordy's really angry at Chrisand Chris says I swear, I pinky
swear, I didn't know it wasloaded.
They run into one of the olderboys, that Billy and Charlie,
vern's older brother and hisfriend, hang with.
Ace, played by KieferSutherland as a real sociopath,
(11:30):
he steals Ace and then alsoEyeball, who is Chris's older
brother.
So, eyeball Chambers, theysteal the Yankees cap.
Gordy's like give it back, thatwas my brother's, give it back.
And they don't care.
Like the whole town knows thatDenny has died and they don't
care that they've taken thisfrom this grieving boy.
And so Chris like startsinsulting Ace but they're
(11:53):
clearly so much bigger thanthese you know 12-year-old boys
until Ace like gets him down onthe concrete and holds a
cigarette to his face and saysapologize.
And so he does and Gordy haslost the hat.
They meet up with Vern and Teddy.
Vern is kind of the comicrelief.
He's brought a comb with him sothey can comb their hair, so
(12:16):
they can look good when they'reon TV, when they're heroes and
they are talking about whatroute they're going to go.
They have to go through thejunkyard and Milo, who runs the
junkyard, runs off kids who gothrough there.
But they need to go throughthere because there's a water
pump there.
So they go to the junkyard,they flip coins to see who's
(12:50):
going to have to go buy the foodat a like.
There's a local little storewhere they can get some food and
Gordy is the one who loses thecoin flip.
And so while he's there, yousee the storekeeper shopkeeper
talking to Gordy, about Denny.
He's like shame about yourbrother.
You know, do you play football?
(13:11):
He was really good.
Well, if you don't playfootball, what do you do?
And Denny says I don't know, orexcuse me.
Gordy says I don't know.
When he gets back the boys areno longer where they had been
and he's like what's going on?
They had always heard that Milo, who runs the junkyard, has
this like really ferocious dognamed Chopper, that he had not
(13:34):
only taught Chopper to sickpeople but specifically to sick
balls.
Once Gordy realizes what'sgoing on, the other boys are
climbing the fence and so hehears Milo shout chopper sick.
And he says I know he saidchopper sick him, but I heard
chopper sick balls.
And so he like runs hellbentfor leather, just manages to
(13:56):
make it over the fence and thenhe turns around and it's not a
dog you want having chasing you,but it's not the like ferocious
hellhound that he was expecting.
And he says that was my firstexperience of myth of reality
not living up to the myth.
So they end up because all fourof the boys are surprised at
how small the dog is.
(14:17):
They're taunting himspecifically Teddy, who is?
They call him the craziestperson they knew.
Who is?
They call him the craziestperson they knew?
So he really pushes theenvelope all the time.
So Milo comes over and startstaunting Teddy, saying that his
dad is a loony.
Teddy has said my dad stormedthe beach in Normandy and the
(14:38):
guy starts saying he's in theloony bin.
He's loony.
So it's clear that his fatherhas some pretty severe PTSD, to
the point where and then Teddytakes it so hard that he's like
I'm going to tear your head offand like is trying to get over
to fight this guy who's a fullgrown man.
And Chris manages to pull himaway and Teddy is like sobbing,
(15:02):
like he just he ranked on my oldman.
He ranked on my old man.
And the voiceover says I had ahard time understanding why
Teddy was so attached to hisfather, who beat the shit out of
him and like abused him alwaysand like I couldn't give a crap
about my father, who hadn'traised a hand to me since I was
three years old, and that wasbecause I was eating bleach to
(15:24):
hand to me since I was threeyears old and that was because I
was eating bleach.
So they get Teddy calmed downand they keep going and they
start talking a little bit aboutwhat they expect to find.
When they find Ray Brower'sbody and they start it was still
very childlike understanding ofit they're like, oh man, what
if his body looks like this orthat or the other?
And again, all the boys exceptGordy are the ones who are kind
of thinking about this andthey're thinking about like the
(15:47):
kind of horror aspect of it.
Only Gordy really seems tounderstand the gravity of it was
hit by a train.
And they get to a point wherethere's a trestle bridge and
they're like maybe we should godown to.
(16:07):
You know there's a bridge overthe river like this way, but
it's five miles down.
That way it's gonna be a lotfaster to just go across the
trestle bridge.
Well, when's the next traincoming?
I'm sure it'll be fine.
Well, what do we do if it comes?
Just jump, you jump into theriver.
(16:28):
It's 100 feet, it's fine.
So Chris and Teddy are ahead.
Gordy is stuck behind Vern whois like scared and kind of going
on all fours when a trainstarts coming, and so Chris and
Teddy make it to the other sideand Vern is like terrified and
like kind of like clinging to it, and Gordy's like we're gonna
die, and so they run and theyjust manage to escape.
They jump off the side of thebridge just as it gets to where
(16:48):
it's on land again, and so it'sterrifying.
It's a terrifying moment Oncethey get to a place where they
camp, they make dinner, theytalk about all the things that
were the serious things that youworry about before you've
discovered girls, and so there'sthis very funny scene where
they're talking about you know,if Mickey's a mouse and Donald's
(17:16):
a duck and Pluto is a dog, whatis goofy?
You know, it's just this lovelyscene.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Do they talk about the fact that, like Mickey, only
wears pants?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
but Donald only wears a shirt.
No, they didn't get to that.
And there's also Vern says if Icould only eat one food for the
rest of my life, easy Pez,cherry Pez.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
That's so disgusting.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
So they go to bed, they go to sleep and they are
woken up by howls in the nightthat are probably coyotes.
But Teddy starts teasing Vernlike oh no, it's Ray's ghost.
Ray's ghost is coming to getyou.
And so they decide to keepwatch overnight.
And so Teddy takes the firstwatch.
They hold the pistol.
Teddy is obsessed with themilitary because of his father
(18:02):
and so he's like talking tohimself like Corporal Teddy
Duchamp, and they're like wouldyou shut up?
We're trying to sleep.
Then we see Vern with thepistol.
He has the next watch and likeevery cricket cheap, he goes.
It's like pointing a gun inevery direction and it's just
like it's a really good thing.
None of these kids shot theirfoot off.
(18:22):
Chris has the third shift andwhile he is keeping watch, Gordy
is having a nightmare and wesee it where it's at Denny's
funeral, and it's clearly thisis a dream, it's not a flashback
.
But it's also not entirelyclear if this is like, if this
is his guilt or his belief.
But his father turns to him andsaid it should have been you,
(18:45):
gordy, yeah.
And so Gordy wakes up and hegoes to talk to Chris and says I
didn't cry at Denny's funeraland Chris is just really lovely.
They end up talking more.
The reason why Gordy's fathercalled Chris a thief is because
(19:09):
he got suspension for stealingthe milk money at school and
everyone knows that the Chambersfamily is bad.
It's a bad family and sothere's no way Chris is going to
escape it.
Everyone knows it, even Chris.
And so they're talking aboutthat.
And Chris says nobody evenasked me, they just gave me a
three-day vacation.
And Gordy says did you take themoney?
(19:31):
And he says yeah, I did.
You knew I did, teddy knew Idid, I bet even Vern knew I did.
And then they're quiet for alittle bit and he says but maybe
I felt bad about it and maybe Itook it to Old Lady Simon's to
return it, and then maybe themoney didn't get back to where
it belonged.
But old lady Simons came in thenext week in a new skirt.
Gordy's like oh yeah, it wasbrown with like polka dots, oy,
(20:00):
no-transcript.
And so the next morning, sinceGordy has the last watch, he's
the only one up and he's sittingon the train tracks reading one
of his magazines when a deercomes by and he has this kind of
moment that he communes withthe deer and the voiceover says
like I thought about telling theguys about it, but I ended up
(20:21):
not saying anything.
I've never spoken or writtenabout that deer until this
moment.
Not saying anything.
I've never spoken or writtenabout that deer until this
moment.
They are continuing along.
Meanwhile we keep seeing Ace andCharlie and Billy.
Charlie and Billy managed tokeep the secret for a full 36
hours, which is a personalrecord for them.
But then they finally end uptelling Ace and the other people
(20:41):
in that gang and Ace is like,oh, we're going to get that body
, we're going to be heroes.
And so they have two cars andthey're going to go get Ray
Brower's body.
And we see more instances ofAce being like just really cruel
and awful.
So the boys have to cross afield.
(21:04):
They could follow the traintracks to get to where Ray
Brower is, but it's going to be,they're going to save like an
hour if they cross a field.
They come upon like the swampand Chris like pokes at it.
It's just like, ok, it's nottoo deep, we can, we can go.
So they take one step and it'slike only up to their ankles,
and take the next step and it'sup to their their their necks
(21:25):
yeah, and so they start horsingaround and like Vern is like oh,
does this make you happy toTeddy?
and Teddy's like no, but thisdoes, and he starts like pushing
him down in the water andthey're horsing around.
Meanwhile, gordy is just kindof like trying to get across the
the water and his voiceoversays it was almost an obsession.
(21:45):
At this point, I needed, Ineeded to see that body.
Once they get across the waterand his voiceover says it was
almost an obsession.
At this point, I needed, Ineeded to see that body.
Once they get to the other sideand they're still horsing
around they realize that thelake is full of leeches.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Oh, I remember the leeches.
That was my first introductionto the like idea of them.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, yeah, mine too.
And so they like strip off andthey're pulling leeches off of
themselves and each other andthey're all just in their
underwear.
When Gordy like gets a strangelook on his face and like he
pulls his underwear away fromhis body and looks down, he's
like oh Chris, oh shit Chris.
And he pulls out a leech that'scovered in blood and like
(22:21):
throws it aside and then faintsjust falls over faints.
A little bit later he's stilllike he's, he's back to himself,
but he is not talking and likejust kind of staring off into
space.
They're all dressed again.
Chris says I think we shouldtake gordy home and like teddy
and verner are arguing with himuntil like they're almost coming
(22:44):
to blows, until Gordy like goes, stop it.
And then shouts stop it, notgoing back, keep going.
So they continue on.
They get to the road that theyknow is is near where where Ray
Brower is, and they continuealong the, the train tracks
until they find him and they see, basically just from his knees
(23:10):
down and there's like a KEDsneaker hanging from a tree and
you see, it really hit the otherthree boys.
What it is that they'rewitnessing, what it is that
they're witnessing.
They come over and Chris gets abranch and kind of lifts
because Ray is underneath likesome leaves and stuff like that
(23:31):
and lifts the branch up so theycan see his face and the
voiceover says the kid was dead,the kid was not sick, the kid
was not sleeping, he was dead.
And like it's, this real,visceral understanding of what
it is that has happened to thiskid is no longer an adventure.
(23:53):
This is real.
So Chris says let's find somelong branches so that we can
make a stretcher for him.
And Gordy sits down on a stumpand is like, sits down on a
stump and is like off again.
Chris sends Vern and Teddy togo find the branches and he sits
(24:13):
down.
Gordy says why did you have todie?
And he starts like really justsobbing, like I'm no good and my
dad hates me.
And Chris keeps saying hedoesn't hate you, he just
doesn't know you.
Which is heartbreaking initself.
(24:37):
And it's this very amazingtender moment between these two
boys where Chris is doing thebest he can to comfort his
friend for something that justthere is no friend, for
something that just there is nocomfort.
And then Ace shows up withseveral other, the teen boys.
He says we're taking the body.
Chris stands up to him and saysno, you're not Fair's fair.
(25:08):
We walked here, you drove, weearned this.
And Ace pulls out a knife.
Vern had left at the moment.
Ace showed up.
When he pulls out a knife,teddy, who is like fearless, is
like nope, too much for me.
And Chris is like then, fine,if you're going to have to kill
me, kill me.
So he's getting closer whenGordy shoots the gun in the air
(25:28):
to get everyone's attention.
So it becomes a standoffbetween Ace and Gordy.
And Ace says what are you goingto shoot all of us?
He's like no, just you.
And he's like you don't havethe balls.
He's like why don't you suck myfat one?
You dime store hood.
And he said no, one's takingthe body, you're leaving, we're
(25:52):
going to call it in when we gethome.
And because he has a gun andAce has brought a knife to a
gunfight, they stand down andthe boys use one of their
bedrolls to cover Ray and thenhead back home.
They say they made an anonymouscall when they got back to town
(26:16):
and then they each went home.
The voiceover tells us whathappens to each of them.
Vern got married right out ofhigh school, had four kids and
is now a forklift operator.
Teddy couldn't get into thearmy.
He tried several times butbetween his ear and his eyes he
was 4F.
He's been in jail several timesand is now doing odd jobs
around Castle Rock.
(26:37):
He and Chris did end up goinginto the college prep classes,
because that's something theytalked about before how Chris is
smart enough to go on thecollege prep classes.
But no one believes he can doit because he's a Chambers and
became a lawyer and life tookthem in separate directions and
he hadn't spoken to him in over10 years and he had just learned
that Chris was at a fast foodrestaurant when an argument
(27:02):
broke out between the two men inline ahead of him and always
the peacemaker.
He tried to intervene and hewas stabbed in the throat and
died almost instantly and so welearned.
That's why he is telling thisstory.
So we end with him at his very80s computer, green font on
(27:23):
black, and his son and a friendcome in and said Dad, we're
ready to go.
And he's like what's that?
His son's like Dad, we've beenready for an hour.
He's like oh, just give me afew minutes.
And the friend says he saidthat a half hour ago and the son
says, yeah, he gets like thiswhen he's writing.
So that's when he types in theline that you remember I've
(27:45):
never had friends in my lifeagain like I did when I was 12.
Jesus does anyone.
And then you see him go out andmeet the boys, have them get
into the car and they go towherever they're.
They have towels and clearlythey're going swimming and
there's something very hopefulabout that.
Ending Not short.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Yeah, concision is not exactly our forte.
Not good at concise.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
So I want to talk about cycles of abuse as part of
this and toxic masculinity aspart of this, and like toxic
masculinity because what we seeover and over again, like the
reason why gordy doesn't feelseen, it isn't seen by his
parents, is because he does notmeet the 1959 ideal of what a
(28:39):
boy is supposed to be, right,he's.
He's shy and quiet andsensitive, and he's indoorsy.
He's indoorsy, yeah, andsensitive.
He's indoorsy.
He's indoorsy, yeah, and he's awriter and so he makes up
stories.
He's not an athlete, so he'snot an athlete.
The way that Ace treats thepeople in his gang, so when he
(29:00):
sees the children, he calls themgirls and ladies.
Consistently.
They use the word pussy todenigrate each other.
That is constantly what theyare saying to each other, and
this is something that Istruggled with as I was watching
yesterday, because the toxicmasculinity that we see is not
(29:22):
necessarily something I want toexpose my kids to, and I was
thinking about, like you know,how was this something that dad
was okay with exposing us to,but at the same time, it's not
saying that it's a good thing,like there are aspects of the
toxic cultural norms within both1959, as written by Stephen
(29:45):
King, and then the screenwritersfor this film and then the 1986
, where it didn't question someof them.
But the story is about thatmoment in time and it feels
important to see the toxic soupthat Gordy and Chris and Teddy
(30:08):
and Vern were swimming in.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
It's also the case that the worst perpetrator of it
is the villain right, and soit's not like our hero is, even
if he does sort of kind of playwith it, because that's what the
soup he's swimming in thevitriol is from the villain.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Yes, yeah, very much so.
And then also from Gordy'sparents, who also are sort of
villainous, because we see aflashback of a dinner table of
the four members of the familyat dinner, where Denny is trying
to get his parents to hearabout Gordy's story that he
wrote and they don't care.
(30:52):
Like the mom goes, oh, gordy,that's lovely.
And like the dad is just likesee, you're splitting his
attention, he's got to focus onthe game.
And so poor Gordy only had thisone person in the house who saw
him and believed in him, andnow that guy's dead.
And now he's dead and he feelssurvivor's guilt Right that it
(31:16):
should have been him, because,like, the family would have been
okay without him, whereas thefamily is broken without Denny,
without Denny, yeah, is brokenwithout Denny, without Denny,
yeah.
And so that's one of the thingsto think about, like toxic
masculinity.
I think it's really importantthat the writer you know Gordy
as an adult has a son and it'sboys, because what we see at the
(31:41):
end is he is distracted, buthe's not ignoring his son and
his friend, right, and he hasmade sure to end that cycle by
when, you know, when he gets toa stopping point, and even
though he is overcome with grieffor the loss of his friend
(32:05):
Chris, and the way that hisfather was overcome with grief
for the loss of his son.
He knows his son needs him andhe takes him to go swimming and
to make good memories, and sothat's something I feel like I
did not get as a kid.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
And I feel like dad did, you know, like dad
recognized.
You know it's only a moment,but you see, gordy has grown up
to be a good father.
Gordy has grown up to recognizethat you center the children in
your life, even when you'redealing with personal heartbreak
because he is.
He is heartbroken that hisfriend Chris is gone, even
(32:46):
though and he says we hadn'tseen each other for 10 years,
but I know I will miss himforever.
And that is phenomenal.
And that also speaks to thereason why Chris is such an
amazing character is that it'sclear that he is also trying to
break the cycle of abuse in hisown life.
(33:08):
He's trying to break free fromwhat is expected of him.
You know, yeah, he took themoney, so he tried to do the
right thing when he realized,like I don't, I don't feel good
about this, and he was betrayedby an adult, right right, which
makes then sense too that hebecame a lawyer.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Yes, yes, One presumes a, you know a defense.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yes, and at every point he is trying to stop his
friends from making the choicesthat are going to hurt them.
So there's a point where, teddy, there's a train coming not on
the trestle bridge, it's beforethat and Teddy's like I'm going
to try to dodge the train andthey're like shouting at him get
off the tracks, get off thetracks.
Until finally Chris goes up andbodily carries him off the
(33:55):
tracks and Teddy's pissed at him, like I could have dodged it.
I could have dodged it.
And Chris actually is just likeyou know what you'll dodge one
on the way back.
I just didn't, you know, got tostay focused, and so he is
amazingly emotionallyintelligent.
Similarly, like he says to, atone point he is talking to Gordy
(34:18):
about like soon they're goingto be going to high school and
Gordy's going to be going tocollege classes.
Vern and Teddy are going to betaking shop and Chris assumes he
is too Gordy's like to be goingto the college classes.
Vern and Teddy are going to betaking shop and Chris assumes he
is too Gordy's like no, I wantto stay with you guys, I want to
be with my friends.
And Chris is like no, don't dothat.
That's ridiculous.
You could be a real writersomeday and Gordy goes fuck
writing, it's a waste of time.
(34:38):
Chris tells him like sometimesI wish I were your father.
And so he does take that kindof role with the other boys
where he is trying to give themthe guidance that they're not
getting at home and like protectthem from their own inner
demons.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Exactly yes.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Even though he has Outer demons, outer demons,
demons, outer demons.
That kind of speaks to hisemotional maturity and and
intelligence, that he is able tobe so giving and so comforting
to his friends, even while he'sdealing with these horrible
(35:19):
things and, additionally, his,his ability to recognize that
Gordy is right, that this is notan adventure, they're not there
to be heroes.
It's really that understandingof mortality is something that I
(35:40):
think Chris gets, that Teddyand Vern don't necessarily Gordy
kind of did from the beginning.
He's never been superenthusiastic about it Because of
Denny's death.
Yeah.
So it's really, it's poignant,it's beautiful, like how this
friend is able to provide forthese kids what they are not
(36:04):
getting, provide for these kidswhat they are not getting.
The thing that struck me lastnight because, again, as a kid I
was watching it and they wereolder than me because this came
out when I was seven and I knowI saw it around then and many,
many, many times after that andso like they were big kids and
then even when I saw it likelate teenager, early
(36:26):
20-something, I still felt likea kid.
Seeing it this time and seeinghow badly these kids are
betrayed by the adults in theirlives, with the exception of
Vern, vern seems to be the onlykid who basically he's fine
Teddy has been horrificallyabused.
(36:47):
Chris, we know nothing abouthis parents except that everyone
knows that it's a bad familyright.
And then gordy, it's kind ofmalignant neglect, it's not
benign neglect even yeah yeah,yeah, and through an
unimaginable grief which theparents went through.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
An unimaginable grief too, but they're adults,
they're parents Right, they'rethe grownups in the relationship
.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
So the fact that that is what really got me watching
it this time, especially as Imentioned, like Will Wheaton is
skinny little slip of a thing,as is my younger son, and so
like I really felt this likeparental sense of like the kid
(37:34):
needs a hug.
Yeah, take care of him, yeah,yeah, I hear that, I hear that
and then that's also the otherthing that I think really
resonated with dad is that dadhad two lifelong friends and dad
had not super easy childhood,yeah, and with the same kind of
toxic masculinity andexpectations For heaven's sake.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
His nickname was Butch.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
Only in the 50s could you call a kid Butch Guy, not
ironically.
Only in the 50s could you calla kid butch guy, not ironically.
So that is the other aspect ofit is like.
I know that that resonated withdad the idea that you can get
the emotional support you needfrom friends that you're not
getting at home.
That to me this time around wasI kind of remember this being a
(38:30):
nostalgia film for dad and likeit is.
I mean in the same way thatlike Stranger Things is
nostalgic for, you know, for the80s, but I feel like Stranger
Things is a little moreintentional in it, whereas this
is a period piece, right, andthe thing is it's not something
you really want to go back tolike and it feels clear that
(38:51):
this is not something you wantto go back to, which I didn't
get as a kid, right right.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
it's an interesting point about nostalgia, because
we think about nostalgia as sortof a idealizing of the past,
and I don't think that's whatthis does Right, like Stranger
Things.
I don't know if it idealizes,but it certainly celebrates some
of the culture, like the musicand fashion and stuff a little
(39:17):
bit.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
And I will say the music is amazing In this film.
In this film.
It has an amazing soundtrack.
The music is amazing, and Ithink that's what I focused on
and then also the idea that,like four boys, could go off on
an adventure which was moresomething you could do in the
1980s, but you wouldn't havebeen able to do it overnight.
So like I know that there was alittle bit of a nostalgia for
(39:40):
that kind of like innocent time,of freedom.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
Freedom, and theordy character certainly has
nostalgia for the friendshipsthat he had.
Yes, I mean, that's like thewhole point.
Yes, that's the line that Iremember.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
Yes, Jesus, does anyone yeah?
Speaker 2 (39:54):
But that's more about like adolescence than about 59.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, and it really 1959 seems awful.
And it really 1959 seems awful.
I mean, like that a grown adultcould taunt a 12-year-old boy
about his father and considerthat perfectly okay, well, a
(40:21):
12-year-old boy who we knew wasbeing abused by that man and
Milo even says something abouthis ear.
He's like your father did thatto you and it's just like that
that would be considered.
Ok, yeah, that a teacher andI'm not saying that that
wouldn't happen now, but that ateacher could say like well, no
one will believe Chris, becausehe's a bad.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
So I'll buy myself a new skirt Buy myself a new skirt
with this free money.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Like I, I that aspect of it is like 1959 sounds awful
.
Let's keep the music there's,there's.
Uh, like it'd be nice if wecould have a little bit more
more freedom for for kids, sothey can, you know, have coming
of age moments that aren'thelicopter parented yeah,
(41:06):
although at the same time yousaid it's a.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
it's a good thing they didn't shoot themselves in
the foot.
It's a good thing they didn'tshoot one another Exactly.
I mean that's like the numberone cause of death in kids that
age today Exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
So, like, yeah, that's yeah, so it.
It made it clear how much and Idon't know if this is true of
all kids who were like childrenin the 50s, but it was common
enough that it resonated with somany people.
It is clearly an aspect ofStephen King's childhood and
(41:39):
he's, you know, four or fiveyears older than our parents.
Like I think he was born in 46.
I think, like summer from 1959,he was 12, going on 13.
Right, and our parents werenine.
Yeah, it is common enough, butthis idea that you were raising
yourself and that there was,like, the sphere that your
(42:00):
parents lived in was differentfrom the sphere that you lived
in, which is different from thesphere that the like older
teenagers lived in, and ne'erthe twain shall meet unless the
like older teenagers lived in,and near the twain shall meet
unless, like, the olderteenagers are trying to kill the
12 year olds.
Yeah, that sounds awful.
Like I wish that there weremore freedoms for small children
now than there often are, butlike the fact that these kids
(42:26):
were figuring all of this reallydeep shit out without a single
guide is horrifying.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, it's almost.
I want to call it clear-eyednostalgia.
It needs a different word,something about really taking a
hard look at the past, trying toremember what's good, but also
clear-eyed about what was notgood and conveying that, which
you know we don't always do withthese sort of.
You know, there's severalmovies that we've even talked
(42:59):
about, like Dirty Dancing, whichwas a bonus episode we talked
about.
That's like a Gen X touchstone,the movie that was telling a
boomer story.
This feels like another one,like that, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:09):
And I think that's part of what, like what I'm
talking about, with realizinghow much toxic masculinity is
within this, but it it's notcelebrated.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
Right, right, it's just.
Christmas story is another one.
Yes, it's a similar sort oflike Gen X Touchstone telling a
boomer story.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yes, and that one also has some, you know, toxic
masculinity and and andinteresting stuff yeah yeah,
it's more of a comedy than adrama, but still yeah and that's
.
Speaker 1 (43:36):
I think that that's.
That's something that we'll see.
Each generation and like itchanges as as the media changes,
the media landscape changes.
But there's a reason why, likeStranger Things is telling a Gen
X story.
Mm, hmm, yep, totally.
(44:03):
And while there is humorthroughout this story, it is a
meditation on mortality Right,and there are multiple times
where the boys could have diedduring this story.
Understanding mortality andrecognizing that you have to
(44:25):
live while paying respect andfinding a balance between those
because Gordy's parents were notliving Right and the boys when
they first set out, at least thethree other than Gordy were not
paying respect, they didn'thave respect, it was just an
adventure, so like recognizing,like, oh my God, we could have
(44:46):
what could have happened to us,what could have happened to Ray
could have happened to us veryeasily.
Could have what could havehappened to us, what could
happen to Ray.
Speaker 2 (44:50):
Could it happen to us ?
Very easily?
What happened to Ray could havehappened to us.
Yeah, very easily.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, allowing for mourning and allowing for grief
and allowing for recognition ofhow awful it is that Ray Brower
died Like that.
He wasn't asleep, he wasn'tsick, he was dead.
It's something that reallystuck with me in the image of
the body's face.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Oh, they show the kid's face.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
They show the kid's face.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
I didn't remember that I.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I remember the feet anyway, they said the, the train
had knocked him right out ofhis kids and like the, where it
just hits you.
This is, I mean I've said, real.
It's a, it's a fictional story,but like death is real, but
death is real, death is real andthis kid is really gone and
(45:49):
that's awful.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
Before I wrap up, before we hit record, one of the
things that you listed that youwanted to maybe touch on was
child actors, and that'ssomething we haven't talked
about yet.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
One of the reasons why this movie works as well as
it does is because the four leadactors are amazing, and all
four of them have gone on, withthe exception of River Phoenix.
Phoenix, whose life wastragically cut short.
Because he died, have gone on todo pretty big things.
So Will Wheaton obviously wenton to Star Trek the Next
Generation and because of thisfilm was probably the highest
(46:20):
profile name attached to theNext Generation at the time.
Corey Feldman had a long career.
He's no longer acting but he'sstill in entertainment.
Jerry O'Connell is still acting.
He's married to Rebecca Romijn,who plays Mystique, and there's
a retrospective and I'llinclude a link in the show notes
(46:42):
talking about how Rob Reinerchose these child actors and one
of the things that Will Wheatonsays is that basically they're
playing themselves.
Because he was a very shy andintroverted boy who was very
sensitive, corey Feldmanexperienced unimaginable abuse
(47:02):
from his parents.
Jerry O'Connell was a goofballand really enjoyed getting
played.
The comic relief River Phoenixwas this phenomenal actor and he
did have that kind of emotionalIQ.
But he was such a good actorthat they, because they were
having trouble casting Teddy,they considered giving him that
part until they found CoreyFeldman.
(47:29):
Reiner did this thing to beforethey started shooting.
He had the four boys at a hotelfor two weeks where they just
hung out and they played actingexercises there's like this
famous book of acting exercisesso that they could bond and they
, they became actual friendsthere.
There are points in there wherethey they really are like
playing off of each otherbecause they've become friends.
And in this retrospectiveReiner talks about at one point
(47:51):
Vern has no lines and he's notdoing anything and was not doing
anything in the scene and RobReiner said to him what are you
doing?
He's like I don't have any lines.
He's like you're still in thescene.
What would you be doing if thisyou know were really happening?
And so like that was reallyinteresting, like because you do
have to teach children thecraft.
Like you know it's a12-year-old, they don't know.
This gets to like.
(48:11):
Another reason why this moviereminds me so much of Dad is Dad
had strong opinions about childactors.
It was horrific to him the waysthat child actors were and
still are probably abused by thesystem.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Yeah, yeah, exploited , and I his sense was that they
just had their childhood stolenfrom them.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
Yes, and so it's clear to me that Rob Reiner
didn't do that.
Like Rob Reiner was not, youknow, like what they did to Judy
Garland.
This was not a thing where it'slike dance, monkey dance, and I
don't know that Rob Reiner,like I'm sure he didn't know
that Corey Feldman was beingabused.
I'm sure he didn't know that.
But there is something likereally tragic to me about the
(48:56):
fact that Corey Feldman was ableto play that character so well
because he himself was feelingso much anger and despair over
the kind of exploitation andabuse that his parents were
putting him through.
And like I don't have an answerto that, I don't have an answer
to how do we look at that when,like that was a smart way to
(49:36):
cast the.
So one thing Will Wheaton hassaid this was not the first
thing he was ever in, but it waslike the first big thing he was
in and it's the best thing he'sever been in.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
In your opinion.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
He said that, oh, okay.
He said that, okay, okay, andthat it's tough for him because
he feels like he's been in asophomore slump ever since he
peaked at 12.
Yeah, and which I like thatwould be tough, that would
really be tough.
Like you know, you peakedbefore you even knew what you
were doing.
(50:11):
Yeah, and one thing he saidthat really stuck with me in
this article when River Phoenixdied, he was really angry
because Phoenix was the one whowas supposed to go on and become
the Tom Hanks.
Tom Hanks, he was the one whowas supposed to go on and do
these amazing things, like thiswas the best thing that Wil
(50:33):
Wheaton ever did, and that'sokay, because River Phoenix was
on to do amazing things.
And that broke my heart alittle bit too.
Sort of meta with the movie, yes, and that's something that
people talk about is the factthat River Phoenix died seven
years later and there is thissense that he and Chris Chambers
are very much the same personin some ways, and I know dad
(51:02):
would have opinions about this,this.
Yeah, so there is one otherthing that I want to talk about
real quick and that is fatphobia, because the film does a
I think, does a very good job ofmaking it clear.
1959 sucked.
But the thing that isunexamined is the fat phobia,
(51:24):
and it's just a given that it'sokay to make fun of people for
being fat and to judge peoplefor being fat.
Do you remember the story thatGordy tells in the middle about
Davy Hogan, who everybody calledLardass?
No, so he has written thisstory and he tells it to the
boys over the campfire about aboy named Davy Hogan, who's
(51:45):
their age but he's like 180pounds.
But it's not his fault, it'shis glands and everyone has
called him lard ass his entirelife.
And so he plans his revenge.
And it's a pie eating contest.
And so he enters the pie eatingcontest and he's there against
the mayor, the principal, thehigh school, the DJ, and they
(52:06):
got the actual, because theyhave music through the Portland
station playing often and youhear the DJ.
And they got the same actordoing the DJ and used the name.
So it's like Gordy isinhabiting this story with real
people in Castle Rock and on hisway in to join the pie eating
(52:29):
contest, one of the contestants,who's a grown man, trips him
and the whole crowd is just likehey, lord S, you have a nice
trip.
So once the pie eating conteststarts, he is winning.
And then Gordy says but hewasn't in it to win, he was in
it for revenge.
And before it it started hedrank an entire bottle of castor
oil and ate a raw egg so thathe would vomit.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
And so he does all over another contestant and it
causes like a barforama oh yeah,I vaguely, and they're all
throwing up on each other, allthrowing up on each other.
Speaker 1 (53:01):
Remember that and it's a.
It's very gross.
It's 12-year-old boy kind ofstory.
It fits, as someone said, it'san 86-minute movie.
They spend five minutes in thisstory within a story.
Within a story.
Gordy sees people like he seesyou know how people treat lard
(53:33):
ass.
He finds a way to get therevenge and so clearly this Davy
Hogan is a stand in for himself, for feeling like he's, instead
of being made fun of, he'sunseen by the town.
But the assumptions built intothat story and the assumptions
built into the rest of whathappens in 1959 are not very
(53:54):
sensitive, are very fatphobic,which I didn't, you know, I
didn't see as a kid.
To remake this movie today,which I don't think we should do
because it's a masterpiece wewould change, because that is an
aspect of our culture that wenow recognize as harmful and it
(54:15):
would be like the way that theboys call each other the F word
or pussy, as like.
It might still be in there, butit would be clear that this is
not something to aspire to.
The clear that this is, this isan ugly part of our past right
right?
Speaker 2 (54:32):
yeah, well, shall I see if I can reflect back some
highlights at you?
Yeah, let's.
So this film, I think, is itgoes into the category of gen x
touchstone media that looks backat a boomer story.
We have several of those alongthe way and this one in
(54:52):
particular, like for us.
It is like it's nostalgic forus, for the guy, girls, because
our dad loved it so much.
It was nostalgic for himbecause it sort of captured the
feeling of being an adolescentin the late 50s and early 60s.
But there's something about itthat we named that's not an
(55:14):
idealistic nostalgia, so it's anostalgia that I want to call
clear-eyed.
It's a looking back thatappreciates the bits that were
good and in this case that waslike sort of the greater freedom
and autonomy that theseadolescents were able to afford
and also the deep friendships.
(55:34):
I mean that is the sort ofthesis, underlined thesis of
this movie is the friendshipsbetween these boys, but with a
sort of clear view of, like thetoxic masculinity the betrayal
is the word that you used ofadults, of their adolescent
children, their own offspring,their students, their neighbors,
(55:57):
and the ways in which they didnot protect these kids, spent
some time sort of leading up toand kind of talking about the
ways in which this film gives usmodels of breaking cycles of
abuse, both with Gordy and hisson that we see in the sort of
(56:18):
present the 1986 story framestory, but also with Chris, who
was trying to break himself outof the cycle of abuse as a
12-year-old in 59 and eventrying to sort of protect his
friends from their own demonsand from their parents' sort of
psychological influence andabuse which is really remarkable
(56:38):
.
I think it's remarkable even forwhen adults are able to do that
for one another, so that a12-year-old who was suffering
from his own sort of form ofkind of ongoing abuse, whether
from parents or from the townwho knew he was a bad kid, to be
able to try and intervenebecause Gordy's dad doesn't know
him, doesn't hate him butdoesn't know him.
(56:59):
That there's something reallyremarkable about that and I'm
even wondering if it's realisticthat we would think an
individual could do that.
Speaker 1 (57:08):
I think so.
I think there are people whohave that kind of EQ, like a
native emotional intelligence.
The fact that he has alsosuffered from this abuse makes
him like kind of crystallizesthat, like sensitive to it.
Yes, yeah, I don't think it'scommon, but there is a reason
why, like Teddy and Vern slipaway from the friendship earlier
(57:31):
.
And it's because Gordy andChris have that kind of
sensitivity that Chris turnsoutward and Gordy turns inward
as a writer right, right.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
We also talked a bit about child actors and some of
the uncanny resonance betweenRiver Phoenix and his character
in this film, and also theunfortunate and sort of
heartbreaking truth behind CoreyFeldman's believable portrayal
(58:06):
of this abused boy, behind CoreyFeldman's believable portrayal
of this abused boy.
And then we ended with yourmeditations on fat phobia and
the ways in which this film inmany ways is clear-eyed about
the things that were toxic andunhealthy about culture in 59
and the ways in which it totallywasn't about fat phobia and
just absolutely missed it.
(58:27):
So I think that that's where welanded.
Let me just think.
I think that that captures thehighlights of what we talked
about.
Did I miss anything?
Speaker 1 (58:37):
We talked a little bit about, like the living, even
when grieving, yes, and therespect for mortality.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Thank you, I think that's important.
Ultimately, this film really isa meditation on mortality and
what it means to live andcontinue to have relationships
while being open to grief andnot being shut down by grief.
Guilt and the ways in whichgordy's parents like exacerbated
the survivor's guilt by makingit clear he was not as good as
his old, his dead older brother.
That's a big piece of then.
What informs the relationshipbetween adult gordy and his kids
(59:19):
, now that he's reflecting onchris's death.
So, yeah, thank you forbringing that back up.
Cool, it's a masterpiece, ifyou haven't seen it recently.
Speaker 1 (59:27):
You should re-watch it.
It's, it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
It's an amazing movie so next week I'm going to bring
you my thoughts about a filmthat probably I won't describe
as a masterpiece, when we aregoing to be talking about splash
, where, um daryl hannah is amermaid mm-hmm, it's where where
the name Madison came from.
Speaker 1 (59:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
Cool, all right.
Speaker 1 (59:50):
See you then.
Speaker 2 (59:51):
Talk to you, then this show is a labor of love,
but that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(01:00:14):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
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