What was sundered and undone shall be whole–the two made one.
On today's episode of Deep Thoughts About Stupid Sh*t, Emily returns to a beloved film from the Guy girls' childhood: Jim Henson's 1982 epic fantasy The Dark Crystal. Though the film's main character Jen the Gelfling follows the familiar beats of the hero's journey, baby Emily didn't understand the allegory of divine beings that are incomplete as Mystics and Skeksis without each other–and for good reason. Jim Henson drew inspiration from the book Seth Speaks by psychic medium Jane Roberts, which he claimed not to completely understand. But Henson's masterful attention to world building, his willingness to create a scary story for children, his exploration of spirituality through fiction, and his loving creation of ugly characters, all made for a meaningful--if imperfect--film.
Listen, Gelfling, there is much to be learned. So throw on your headphones and begin!
Mentioned in this episode
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
As a kid I really struggled with the idea that the
Skeksis and the Mystics weretwo halves of a whole, because
the Skeksis were so clearlyawful and the Mystics were so
clearly good.
And one of the things that Iread last night that really
stuck with me was that theMystics for a thousand years
have just been chilling in thisvalley by themselves, and it was
(00:23):
saying part of this duality ispassivity versus action, and so
the mystics are good but theydon't do anything with it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1982 Jim Henson film, theDark Crystal, with my sister,
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, trace, I know you've seenit.
(01:16):
This is part of our sharedchildhood, but tell me what's in
your head about the DarkCrystal.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, man, I loved it so much.
I think we must have watched itwith Chris, our cousin, like,
oh God, I loved it so much.
So what's in my head?
I actually, I feel like Iwatched it again within the past
must be 13 years like since mydaughter was born and I remember
being like, oh no, like Iremember thinking like you can't
(01:44):
go home again sometimes.
So so here's my recollection,though.
There were these little fairycreatures I remember a boy and a
girl, and then they had likewings, or one of them did anyway
, and there's some sort of anadventure and there are bad guys
.
They're called the skeksis, Ithink, and they're all like
hunchbacked and like like thatweird Frank Oz voice that he
(02:07):
does when he's like being a hag,you know, like a crone, and
they had magic and they had thisgiant crystal and there was a
small shard missing from it, andI don't remember any of the
journey of the adventure, but Iremember there was like an
impulse either to or not returnthe shard back into the giant
(02:28):
crystal, and then like aunification, because the Skeksis
and the whatever the fairycreatures are called they had a
different name like wereactually from the same creature.
That had been like likecosmically or magically, like
separated into two parts, likeseparated into two parts, and
the skeksi for some reasonwanted to destroy that part of
(02:49):
them.
That was like the magical,childlike attractive versions of
them.
You're a little bit off, butokay that's cool well, go ahead,
you'll correct me.
I mean, that's the thing.
This is what's in my head, thisis in my head and there is some
sort of like reunification andlike a big light shine.
I remember like being veryenamored with the relationship
between the two of the fairycreatures whose name I don't
(03:09):
remember, and there was aromance between them and I
remember sort of really beinglike enamored of that, whatever
that relationship was, whetherit was actually romance or I
projected romance, like that'swhat's in my memory and in
rewatching, I think the thingthat sticks in my head from like
as an adult seeing it, was likethere's no there there and the
(03:30):
thing that I had totally likeidealized and really like been
enamored with was just vacuous.
So that's what's in my head.
It's like complicated and likethis is you know Anyway.
So that's what's there.
But I would love to hear fromyou like why are we talking
about it today?
What are we going to talk abouttoday?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
and like, correct me on the plot so as for why we're
talking about it today, like you, I really loved this film as a
child.
It just holds a place in my mymemory as this like journey.
It is like the movie version ofthe book Cloudy with a Chance
(04:11):
of Meatballs.
I don't know if you have anykind of relationship with that
book.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Not really so.
My relationship with the bookmaybe we'll do this on another
episode actually came after themovie, because the movie made me
laugh so hard.
I was like, oh, I feel like weread this.
Anyway, carry on.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I actually haven't seen the movie because it is so
different from the book.
Oh my God, it's hilarious, I'msure it is.
It's just the thing that Iloved about the book was I liked
the story, but eachillustration was just full to
bursting with its own littlestories and so, on rewatching
(04:47):
this film, I remember feelingthe same kind of like sense of
wonder and discovery and likeI'm in on something, because I
notice all of the creatures, allof the different little details
that create this world of Thra.
I wanted to kind of revisitthat.
There was also it's been aboutsix years ago now but Netflix
(05:09):
did a prequel where they andthey did all Muppets, they
didn't do any CGI other thanlike the background stuff that
they couldn't do in 1982.
So my son got really into it,and so that's another reason is
because there's this connectionI have with my son being really
interested in this worldbuilding.
So what I want to talk aboutlike I do want to talk about
(05:33):
gender a bit and some of whatyou were talking about, you know
, remembering there being thisromance there's an aspect of
that as well, and specifically Iwant to talk about gender and
the hero's journey.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another thing is spiritualityis like deeply embedded through
this, and some of it is.
Jim Henson had these very likegrand ideas and in fact Jim
(05:56):
Henson took some ideas from thebook Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts
, who was both a science fictionwriter and a psychic medium.
Roberts, who was both a sciencefiction writer and a psychic
medium, and so Seth Speaks wasshe would go into these trances
and speak with aninterdimensional being.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I've heard of her.
Have you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, becauseEsther Hicks, who's like a
famous person who claims to bechanneling guides, talks about
Seth Speaks.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Cool, okay, sorry, carry on so.
And Henson in fact bought likea bunch of copies and gave it to
everyone who was making thisfilm and, like read this.
And he actually said, like Idon't entirely understand it,
and you will understand it ornot understand it in your own
way.
Some of the things that I foundpuzzling as a child I think are
part of that, and that'ssomething that I'm hoping you
(06:42):
can help me with is religion andlooking at like duality and
things like that.
I'm going to want to talk aboutlike there's a lot of like
these duality and like pushbackagainst the usual way of looking
at like binaries.
I want to talk about why Hensonwas so comfortable writing, or
not just comfortable, or notjust comfortable.
(07:07):
He wanted to write stories thatcould scare children, because
he felt that we need to scarethem a little bit.
Stories can't be too safe.
And I want to talk about thevisual beauty of this film,
because it is unbelievable.
Those are the kind of thingsthat I want to get into.
Let me give you a synopsis ofthe plot, though it's not said
(07:27):
during the story.
This is the land of Thra, andthere's a voiceover saying that
it's another world, another time, during the Age of Wonder and
it explains that a thousandyears ago the Great Crystal was
cracked and the land that hadbeen good and green became like
this horrible desert.
And there are two kind ofethereal beings, types of
(07:51):
ethereal beings, sort of thing.
The one set lives in this likecastle that is just this ugly
blades, basically, is what thecastle looks like.
And they're the Skeksis.
Now, skeksis is like moose inthat it is plural and singular,
but I'm probably going to referto an individual Skeksi as
without the S.
(08:12):
So there are 10 Skeksis leftand on this day the emperor is
dying.
The Skeksis are evil and crueland materialistic.
They are like rat vulturecreatures that wear these like
velvets and, like you know,royal garb Like draping robes.
(08:34):
I remember Draping robes, yes.
At the same time, we learn thatthere are 10 mystics that live
in a valley and the wisest ofthe mystics is dying.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh right, it's not the fairies and the Skeksis,
it's the Skeksis and the mystics.
Right, got it?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Sorry and so the wisest mystic calls his protege
to him, and that is a gelflingnamed Jen, and Jen is the last
of the gelflings, because all oftheir kind were killed by the
Skeksis.
So we see the Emperor die.
We see the wisest mystic die.
(09:13):
The mystic tells Jen that hemust find the shard and take it
to the castle and he's likewhere do I find the shard?
Go to Agra.
She is about a day's journeyaway and must do this before the
three sons meet.
We see the Skeksis without theemperor, there is a power vacuum
and the emperor and the wisestmystic both die at the same time
(09:38):
.
So there's this kind ofconnection between them, this
kind of connection between them.
The Chamberlain and the generalfight over who will be emperor
and they do trial by stone,where they each have a sword and
they are hitting a huge stoneand whoever knocks it knocks,
the top off wins.
The Chamberlain has this reallyinteresting way of they talk
(10:01):
about him whimpering he goes,and that when I learned the word
obsequious was what I thoughtof.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think that's what I meant when I said like Frank Oz
doing this sort of like cronevoice, yes, and actually that's
not Frank Oz's doing the voice.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, it's a different voice actor and
puppeteer, I think as well.
So the general wins and becausehe has won, the Chamberlain
becomes an outcast, which meanshis robes are ripped from him
and he is sent away.
Jen starts on his journey.
There's a lot of really weirdvoiceover where it's just his
(10:38):
thoughts.
That I think don't serve thefilm well.
I think it would be better ifwe just watched him.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I wonder if that was somebody telling Jim like we
don't understand what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I don't know, I don't know.
So Jen continually says andthinks things like I'm only a
gelfling and he doesn'tunderstand what he's doing or
what's going on.
He comes upon Agra, he's doingor what's going on.
He comes upon Agra, who was thecharacter I remembered best,
other than the Skeksis.
She is this like wizened, likeold creature.
(11:13):
She has enormous breasts, butshe also has ram's horns and
like kind of not quite a beard,and she only has one eye, which
when we first meet her Jen hasbeen like pulled up in a trap
that's up high, and so she'sholding her eye up to see him
and she is kind of Yoda-like innot really answering questions.
(11:35):
She takes him into her home andshe explains I was there when
the Great Crystal cracked In herhome.
Is this like observatory?
That's what they call it.
I can't think of what it'scalled, but it's like the
whirling like planets and stuffLike a planetarium.
Yeah, but it's like an orlogeor something like that.
(11:57):
There's a specific name for Forthe like kinetic sculpture,
that is the planet.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yes, yes, the like kinetic sculpture that is the
planet.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yes.
And so she says, like the greatconjunction is coming, when the
three suns meet, could be theend of the world, could be the
beginning, no idea.
And so he says, well, I needthe shard, you have the shard.
And she says where is it?
And she finds a box and shepours it out and there's like a
dozen of them, there's a dozenshards.
(12:24):
And he says how do I know whichone it is?
Which is it?
And she says I don't know.
So he has seen an image of theshard.
So he narrows it down to threethat look like the image.
And then we've seen him playinghis little flute and we see
that the mystics like kind ofchance, like that om kind of
(12:48):
thing from meditation,meditation, and so he pulls out
his flute and plays a note andit causes one of the shards to
glow and he knows that's thecorrect one.
Meanwhile the skeksis havelearned that there is still one
gelfling left and we learnedthat they killed them all
because there was a prophecythat it would be a gelfling that
healed the crystal and endedthe Skeksis.
So they send their army, whichare these kind of like giant
(13:10):
crab, spider creatures calledthe Garthim.
So they send them to find Jenand they arrive at Agra's home
and destroy it and Jen is ableto get away, but he is far away
and can see it burning and hethinks that Agra is dead.
So he's still not entirely surewhat it is he's supposed to do
(13:34):
with the shard.
He continues on his journey andhe is kind of tracked for a
little bit and he knows someoneis tracking him but he doesn't
know what's going on.
And then he runs into this tinylittle puff ball of a creature,
fizgig, that like barks at himI remember that it's like a
tribble with a dog face, yes,and a dog tail.
(13:57):
A person with a hood comes andis talking to Fizgig in another
language and he has fallen intosome water and like is stuck in
the mud and is talking to Fizgigin another language.
And he has fallen into somewater and is stuck in the mud
and is talking to Fizgig.
And then she pulls off her hoodand she's another Gelfling and
he's like I thought I was theonly one.
She's like I thought I was theonly one.
She gives him her hand to helphim out of the water and they
(14:18):
dream fast, which means they cansuddenly hear and see each
other's memories, and so welearn that Jen was rescued after
his family was killed by themystics and raised by them, and
Kira, which is this othergelfling's name.
She was saved from thedestruction of the gelfling
village because her mother puther in a tree and then was taken
(14:42):
away, and so the Garthim didn'tsee her there, and so she has
been raised by the Podlings,which is another creature that
lives in this area, and we'veseen Podlings that are like less
colorful, working as slaves forthe Skeksis.
So Kira brings Jen back to hervillage.
There's this lovely scene ofthe Podlings celebrating them
(15:05):
and dancing and eating andhaving a wonderful time, and
they talk a little bit aboutwhat's happening.
The Garthim come and destroy thevillage and Jen and Kira get
away.
Jen is injured and he's reallyupset because he feels like he's
responsible for the villagebeing destroyed.
(15:26):
He throws the shard away fromhim and Kira says the Garthim
have always come.
This was not your fault.
She heals his arm, they sleepand the next morning they
realize where they are.
They're at an old gelflingvillage and Kira says I don't
want to go here.
We don't go here anymore.
It's a bad place because of thethings that happened here.
(15:47):
But they still go and exploreand they find a mural that's
carved in stone, that shows thegreat crystal.
They showed it cracking.
Kira says, well, what is thatup there?
And he says it's writing.
She's like what's writing?
He says words that stay, mymaster taught me, and so he's
(16:07):
able to read it and read theprophecy, which tells him that
the shard must heal the darkcrystal at the moment of the
great conjunction.
While they're there, theChamberlain, who has been
following them, finds them andsays I'm trying to be your
friend.
We made a horrible mistakekilling the Gelflings.
We did it because we wereafraid of them, and if I take
(16:29):
you to the castle and show youthat we all just want peace,
everything will be okay.
And Jen is looking like hemight be listening to the
Chamberlain and Kira saying no,let's go away, let's get away.
And finally Jen says no, no,I'm not doing this.
So they run and Jen is kind ofdespairing, like well, we have
(16:52):
to get to the castle.
I don't know where it is, Idon't know how to get there, I
don't know how far away it is.
And Kira says oh well, I canhelp you.
And he says well, you don'thave to come with me.
She's like calls some animalsthat are these giant creatures
called land striders, and evenas a kid I could tell that it
was a person on stilts withstilts in their hands.
(17:13):
And so they ride.
It's just amazing characterdesign, like even knowing that
that's a human being in there.
I still remember finding itmagical.
So they ride the land stridersto the castle.
During all this time we havebeen seeing the mystics are
starting to make their way tothe castle as well.
(17:34):
They're walking very slowly.
They get close to the castleand they see the Gartham that
had attacked the village withlike a bag, like a cage full of
the podlings.
And Kira says we have to helpthem.
And she rides her land striderover and is attacking the
Gartham and Jen goes and triesto help her.
(17:56):
They manage to open the cage tolet the podlings out.
The Gartham are coming towardsthem and so Kira grabs Jen
they're right on the edge of acliff grabs Jen and jumps over
the edge and then wings pop outand so they float down.
When they get to the bottom,jen says and I remember loving
this as a little girl like Idon't have wings.
(18:18):
And she said of course not.
You're a boy, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Which is like a gender essentialism interesting
thing that I want to talk aboutas well yeah, it's funny because
when I was telling you what Iremembered, I was like they have
wings.
Nope, one of them has wings,and I like that was in my head
that it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, sorry, carry on they find a back way into the
castle.
Kira again is afraid, but shegoes with jen.
They had, by the way, he hadthrown the shard.
They did find it the next day,so they do have the shard when
they get into the castle.
The Chamberlain finds themthere and ends up grabbing Kira,
(18:57):
and one of the two of themstrikes him with the crystal,
which causes like, not only cutshim but also causes this like
sound that all of the Skeksisand all the mystics hear.
We have meanwhile seen that oneof the Skeksis, who's like a
scientist, put a new podlinginto a chair, like tied down in
(19:22):
front of the chamber where it'slike a long column where the
crystal is, and opens it upslightly with a reflector so
that the purple of the crystallike shines into the podling's
eyes and that drains his essence, which then the emperor drinks
to remain young.
It works, but the effects are.
(19:44):
I found myself going sadlytemporary.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, like Beaker, like Beaker, me, me, me, me, me,
me, me, me, me, me, me me.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So the effects are very temporary.
The emperor is angry and he'slike you're a liar.
And we hear the scientists saylike it worked better with
gelflings.
So, oi, yeah, lost basicallyhis will and that is why the
(20:13):
slave podlings in the castlelook so different from the ones
in the village.
So Kira is fighting to get awayfrom the Chamberlain.
The Chamberlain had been tryingto entice them and gets angry
and throws something at Jen thatcauses like a stone collapse.
So not sure if Jen is okay ornot, and Kira is being pulled
(20:35):
away.
Fizgig is trying to follow Kiraand Kira says no, stay with Jen
.
So the Chamberlain comes intothe main chamber with Kira and
everyone was like Gelfling,gelfling, they're so afraid Kira
.
And everyone was like Gelfling,gelfling, they're so afraid.
And Chamberlain says you know,this is my Gelfling, I found it,
(20:57):
I'm bringing it back.
And so the Emperor says allright, fine, you can have your
robes back and I want heressence.
So Chamberlain gets his robesback and Kira is brought to the
scientist's room, which isfilled with cages of animals and
Agra, because the Garthim hadbrought her back after they had
(21:18):
destroyed her home.
So Kira is terrified that she'sstrapped in the way the podling
had been and you can see herwill being, her essence being
sapped from her.
Somehow, jen and Kira areconnected.
He comes out of the rocks andhe goes.
Kira fight them and she hears,even though they can't actually
(21:38):
hear in terms of how far awaythey are.
Agra says call the animals.
They listen to you.
You have that gift.
And so she begins calling allthe animals that are in this
little dungeon area and theyforce themselves out of their
cages and they attack thescientist and they help her get,
they close the entrance andthey help her get out of the
(21:59):
restraints.
Something that I just want topoint out because it is so
amazing she has like lines underher eyes afterwards that she
didn't before, because some ofher essence has been like she
gets bags under her eyes.
Yes, she gets bags under hereyes afterwards that she didn't
before, because some of heressence has been like she gets
bags under her eyes.
Yes, she gets bags under hereyes.
So jen has gotten out and foundhis way to the crystal room and
(22:24):
there's a skylight over it thatshows where the suns are.
Kira finds her way to thecrystal room as well, as the
Skeksis are arriving, becausethey will become immortal and
rule forever if they can getthrough the Great Conjunction
without the crystal being healed.
Fizgig finds Kira and startsbarking, which attracts the
attention of the Skeksis, and soFizgig gets pushed into the
(22:47):
giant shaft down like lava orwhatever it is, and they grab
Kira.
So Jen jumps onto the crystaland he has the shard and he
loses it and ends up on thefloor and Kira grabs it.
They're saying give it to usand we'll let you go, we'll let
(23:10):
you free.
Jen's saying yes, don't hurther, don't hurt her, let her
free.
Kira says no, heal the crystal.
And throws the shard to Jen.
He's sitting on top of the darkcrystal just as she is stabbed
by a Skeksis and dies.
And Jen waits until the threesons are one and plunges the
shard into the crystal.
(23:31):
This is just as the mystics havearrived and strange things are
happening.
The Skeksis are kind of runningaround, light goes everywhere
and the mystics and the Skeksismerge together as the Ur-Skeks
and they explain to Jen, who isnow on the ground with Kira's
(23:51):
body.
You know, through our arrogancewe split ourselves and
fractured the crystal and now weare whole again.
This is now the crystal oftruth and try to remake the
world in its image.
Hold Kira to you, she is yoursagain and they've brought her
back to life.
(24:11):
Agra arrives, she has rescuedFizgig and then the Urskaks like
ascend in light and that's theend of the story.
That's a lot.
Yeah, that's a lot, and it's a90-minute movie.
So I want to talk about, like,the hero's journey in gender,
(24:32):
and specifically they actuallyuse the term Jen is the chosen
one and I was like they chosethe wrong one.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Kira's a badass and she has wings.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, kira's got wings.
She would have just flown up toput the thing in there.
I think they're gliding wings.
I think they're like wings that, like you, can fly down.
I don't think they fly up.
She thinks she needs gravity tohelp her.
Yeah.
But so Kira's a badass.
She can call the animals, sheknows Gelfling history, which
Jen does not.
She has the presence of mind atthe end to say no, heal the
(25:10):
crystal at the end, to say no,heal the crystal to Jen rather
than save me, because they'renot going to let me go free, and
so she's afraid.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And does it?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
anyway, that's the definition of bravery.
Yeah, so she's amazing andshe's a sidekick.
Only thing that jen brings tothe table is he can read I mean
that's a lot.
I'm not saying it's not, and solike now, one of the things that
I think is interesting is I, asa kid, I really struggled with
(25:46):
the idea that the skeksis andthe mystics were two halves of a
whole, because the skeksis wereso clearly awful and the
mystics were two halves of awhole, because the Skeksis were
so clearly awful and the mysticswere so clearly good.
And I understand that peopleare souls, are complete, like
they have the capacity for good,they have the capacity for evil
.
But I was just like I don't seehow the mystics are bad without
(26:10):
the Skeksis, like I can see whythe Skeksis are bad without the
mystics.
And one of the things that Iread last night that really
stuck with me was that themystics for a thousand years
have just been chilling in thisvalley by themselves, and it was
saying part of this duality ispassivity versus action, and so
(26:32):
the mystics are good but theydon't do anything with it,
whereas the Skeksis haveincredible agency.
They are consistently likejockeying for position and
making decisions and changingthings and manipulating, and so
that I was able to be like, oh,that's good, that is a good
(26:55):
thing that the Skeksis have thatthey're using for evil, and so,
with that in mind I wasthinking about.
Like Jen is a very passivecharacter in a lot of ways, like
he doesn't want to leave thevalley where he's lived, he
doesn't want to go on this quest.
Like this is not like, oh, Ifinally get to explore the world
(27:16):
.
It's just like I really wish Iwere back in my valley.
He's willing to listen to theChamberlain because that's
easier by the Podlings, who are,you know, they're not the same
(27:41):
as her Gelfling family, but theyare people who recognize, like,
the danger inherent in theworld they live in and they find
a way to live within it.
Like the fact that we see themjust celebrating and joyful is
really important and impressive,I think.
Important and impressive, Ithink, which leaves me in this
weird place with the Hero'sJourney, because Jen is in some
ways feels more like theVirgin's Promise, which I only
recently learned about, andrecently in the past couple
(28:03):
years.
So the Virgin's Promise isanother archetypal story, like
the Hero's Journey, that focusesmore on stories that are more
likely to have a femaleprotagonist, where there are
expectations placed on the maincharacter that she must break
out of to be true to herself.
(28:23):
And while there's a lot that's,you know, jen refuses the call,
has an older mentor who dies,you know, descends into the
underworld, all of those thingsthat fit the Campbell hero's
journey.
There's aspects of the Virgin'spromise in the like, the
passivity, and like not to saythat Virgin's promise is always
(28:43):
passive, but there is thestarting off with the
expectation of living for othersand so, and then the fact that
Jen's name is Jen in 1982.
And the look of Jen and Kira iskind of humanoid, very feminine
, looking Like.
I texted you last night while Iwas watching I was like Jen is
(29:25):
a Muppet twink.
She did.
She texted me that who is thedriving force once they meet and
is the one who knows things.
It's just frustrating becauseso often stories have a hapless
male protagonist and a badassfemale sidekick.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
So that's really interesting to me though, seeing
that duality and like kind ofthe idea that jen and kira are
complete at the end because theycomplement each other in the
ways that the skeksis and themystics complement yeah, I
definitely think there's meantto be a mirror there, right like
jen may be the chosen one, buthe couldn't do it without kira,
(30:08):
like they're actually the chosentwo, you know, and like the
sort of holding both of a binaryis the thesis of this film.
It sounds like, right like that, the two halves of the binary.
You must have both in order tobe complete and whole and
healthy, and whatever.
And jen and kira are two halvesof a binary.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yes, Just seems like Jen's half is like a little mid.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, you know, art reflects life, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, so I know, as a child I really struggled with
the idea that the Erskinex werewhole.
I'm like, what did the Skeksisbring to the table?
And that's actually one thing Iwanted to kind of talk to you
about, because you have thebackground in religion, like
that idea of duality.
Why do we need the ugliness,the capacity for cruelty, along
(31:05):
with the good and the passivityin action?
Really helped for me to seethat and like, honestly, in our
current political climate, Ifeel like I see that where we
have, you know, like we sent astrongly worded letter with 13
points to the people who arelike currently taking a chainsaw
(31:26):
to the government, right, right.
So like I definitely see likeokay, yeah, we need a little
more of that.
That's kind of action.
But what am I missing?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
here.
It's such a complicatedquestion and I actually want to
zoom out a little bit and ask aneven bigger question.
I think that we have been giventhis idea of binaries and
binary thinking, especially inthe West, binary thinking as,
like, the way to think right.
And it comes from religioussources.
(31:57):
We have from Torah and fromChristian scripture.
We have there's clean andunclean, there's holy and
there's profane, there's day andthere's night.
These two sides of binaries islike over and over again in
religious texts as well.
Male and female and body andsoul is a classic one that we
(32:20):
think about religiously.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So the Skeksis would be body and the Mystics would be
soul.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, I actually think that we are ill-served
when we think of binaries hurtbecause they are hurt by the
(32:57):
traditional male-female binary,but I think the point that they
are making is actually much,much bigger, like there's a
specific way in which thatbinary hurts our siblings, who
are gender non-conforming.
But I think there's an abstractway in which binaries, when
held rigidly, hurt us.
(33:18):
Period, right.
And it's not just like ketchupor mustard Well, actually I like
relish.
It's not just sort of thosesorts of preferences, it's also
like the rigidity in thinkingand the inability to sort of see
third paths or fourth paths ortenth paths through.
So that's like just like abroader commentary I want to
talk about In terms of, likewhat Henson was drawing on, the
(33:42):
cultural kind of lessons withinthe binary thinking.
The body and soul is a great oneto talk about, because I think
there are those, you know.
You think about the classicCartesian, I think.
Therefore, I am Nope, thatain't it.
Ai thinks, is it a person?
(34:02):
Mm-hmm.
And my thinking, I know, isdeeply influenced by my
embodiment, right.
So I'm just staying within theduality right now, like not even
like the materiality of thefact that if there weren't a
physical brain, there would beno thinking, because somebody
might argue with me that it'ssoul and not brain.
(34:23):
I'm not sure I agree with them.
But also, like I know the waysin which, like when I'm
exercising regularly, when I'meating well, my thinking is
clearer, is clearer, and theways in which, like, we feel and
think, when people talk aboutthinking with your gut, that's
not just a metaphor, right likethere's a, there's a thing that
(34:43):
happens in embodiment andthere's research that's been
talked about, about, sort oflike the secondary brain or
whatever that's you know, likeliterally in the gut and the gut
biome affects thinking.
Like all of these things, allof these ways in which the idea
of a duality that can be trulyseparated the way that the
Skeksis and the mystics did, isfalse.
(35:04):
And so I think, like withinthat received understanding of
duality, like Henson's messageis real and powerful.
And I think for you know, foryou, I mean there's theologians
have been talking about this theactual question you asked me
why do we need evil Like?
Why did God make evil in theworld?
What purpose does it serve?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Like we've been asking.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Humans have been asking ourselves that question,
or versions of that question,for thousands of years.
So I don't pretend to have theanswer, but some of the answers
that have been offered are likeyou can't recognize the light if
there is no darkness.
If you live in a world ofconstant day, you just take it
for granted, right, and youdon't recognize the ways in
(35:49):
which it's good.
So there is knowledge in thecontrast.
You can't have holiness withoutalso something that is mundane
and I'm saying mundane, notprofane Sort of that sense of
like contrast actually teachesus.
I think that's one of theanswers.
I think also, like some of theways that you notice with that
activity and passivity, like Ithink that that is real.
(36:11):
I think too, like you said youknow that is good that Skeksis
is used for evil.
I actually think all of it isneutral.
That can be used for good orfor evil, right.
Like even the sort of likechilling in the valley, like
meditating, is neutral and itcan be used to improve the world
(36:35):
and it can be used not right.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But I think the mystics did not stop the
genocide of the Galfords.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
They didn't right.
I mean, they saved the one whoended up with them.
But, they, you know they didn'tactually use it to, like,
improve the world in bigger ways.
And so I think that's also apiece that I wanted to like kind
of name, that I think there's alot of things that we tend to
like associate with negative orpositive, but actually the thing
(37:01):
itself, the tool itself, isneutral, like a brick is neutral
.
It can be used to build a house, it can also be used to be
thrown through a window, but thebrick itself is neutral, and I
think that's true of all, justas money is neutral, exactly
Exactly.
And I think that's true of all,just as money is neutral,
exactly Exactly.
And I think that's true of allsort of the characteristics that
(37:22):
we're naming and in some ways,like assigning them as good and
evil, is part of what makes theconfusion.
Activity and passivity are bothactually neutral.
It depends on when and howthey're used.
Soul and body are actuallyneutral.
It depends on when and howthey're used, whether they're
good or evil.
And so I think that that, likeI just wanted to point that out
(37:44):
that part of the consequence ofbinary thinking is that we line
all of the like binaries of onetogether on one side and all the
binaries of the other on theother side.
That's part of how we end upwith the problems of race in
america where you know, white,straight, christian aligns on
(38:04):
sort of good and desirable, andblack and queer and not
christian ends up on the otherside.
But all of like there's nomerit or demerit in either side
and this film doesn'tnecessarily help with that Right
, because we see that the Skekswere anything other than pure
(38:26):
good when I was a child and Ithink some of that is like the
world building is amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
The script is not great in this.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I think that's my reaction as an adult.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And some of it is also like as a child, I needed a
line drawn, I needed the thesisunderlined that the mystics are
not using their nature toimprove things and in a lot of
ways they are the same as theSkeksis, even though they are
(39:09):
not actively harming.
But at the same time, the factthat it bothered me from the
time I was, you know, four yearsold and saw it for the first
time that the Skeksis andMystics become one creature like
that has stuck with me and Ihave turned it over in my head
whether or not I got the thesisunderlined and as a very black
(39:31):
and white thinker as a child andalso thinking like Jim Henson
was the bee's knees Well, he was, yeah, man was a child.
And also thinking like JimHenson was the bee's knees Well,
he was, yeah, man was a geniusA genius.
So there's so much.
Even though this is a flawedfilm, it really gave me a lot of
meat to chew on for years, eventhough there was a lot that I
(39:54):
still didn't understand up totoday and still don't understand
.
So we're running a little shorton time, so I want to make sure
that I get to another like kindof binary where I feel like
Henson was pushing back isugliness and beauty.
Oh, so what I recall from thisfilm from being a child, I
(40:14):
recall Agra, because I thoughtshe was awesome.
I loved that she could hold upher eye oh, her eye, yeah.
And then I loved that she knewthings and had been around
forever and took no shit andlike I just really, really liked
her.
And then the Chamberlain, themmm and all of that.
But also there's one of theSkeksis wears three different
(40:38):
eyeglasses down its nose.
I didn't really remember Jenand Kira Not that I didn't
remember them, but it just kindof glosses over them, except for
the wings.
And I was thinking about thefact that Jen and Kira are
beautiful Like the puppetsetsare made to look human-like and
they're made to be like highcheekbones and like big eyes.
(41:00):
They're traditionally attractive, traditionally attractive and
they're kind of boring, whereasthe really ugly characters like
Agra is ugly are justfascinating.
And even the Podlings are likethey're little potato people,
you know.
They're not even like asattractive as like Kermit or
(41:22):
Miss Piggy.
And then all of the creaturesthat we see, they are all like
bell-led, like you know, thebeautiful ugliness, like they're
all ugly, like the landstriders are these amazing
things, but their faces looklike a giant moth's face.
(41:45):
It's creepy.
And so I was thinking about whyHenson decided to do this.
Because one thing I wasthinking about, like Fizgig is
more expressive than either Jenor Kira, and it's a much simpler
puppet.
There's a point where Kira says, no, you're not coming with me,
and Fizzgig opens his mouth andgoes, ah, and it is like you
know exactly what that characteris feeling, whereas I don't.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, there's not a lot of emotionality in those two
.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, and so I was thinking about that kind of
binary, that duality of beautyversus ugliness, and there is
some of that like the beautifulis good because the gelflings
are good, but we see thepodlings who are not beautiful
and they're also good.
All of these, the land striders, are good and Agra.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, I think that this is related to another thing
that you said, which is thathenson's not afraid to scare
children.
I think it's related insofar as, like, things that are safe and
pretty don't teach us very muchand they're not that
interesting and I think that'srelated.
It's all part of the sameaesthetic and understanding of
(42:52):
the world potentially you.
You know that, like there's areason that the things you
remember were the uglycharacters and the reason that
he put them in there, they'reall related.
He thinks that's where theinterest is, that that's where
the lessons are and that's likewhere like life is.
How does that land?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I think that makes sense and I don't want to talk
about the prequel much.
I watched one episode of it andI don't want to talk about the
prequel much I watched oneepisode of it and I couldn't
keep going because it's aboutthe Gelflings.
Oh God, it's about genocide,yeah, and so it ends well before
the genocide begins.
But I know that the story endswith the main character deciding
not to kill the Skeksis becausethat's not who he is, and so
(43:32):
what that basically does is itgets into these, like these it's
not so black and white, youknow.
Choosing not to kill seems likea good thing, but we know that
that will lead to the genocideof his people, and so, like,
would it have been better forhim to do that?
Or is there like, is there akind of moral cowardice?
(43:53):
It asks these really reallydeep questions that I just I
don't want for my puppets, likeif it were, like, since it's a
prequel I struggle with prequelswhere we know that there's
something awful that comes inlater, yeah, so I think that
that is really fascinating aswell that we get into that with
these, the beautiful creaturesare the passive ones you know,
(44:19):
so yeah, I think that that doesfit with Henson not being afraid
to scare children, and I thinkit's also like there is
something to the like it's muchmore visually interesting when
things are asymmetrical.
And just a real quick talk aboutAgra again, because we've been
talking about duality andbinaries I have since seen, and
(44:40):
because there have been likebooks written like comic books,
written in the Dark Crystalworld, because Henson had
created an entire universe andjust was never able to make
anything other than this film.
Agra like just grew up out oflike the earth and trees, like
she just kind of created herselfand she is non-binary, like
(45:02):
it's not just a choice that shehas ram's horns and a beard and
breasts, she is non-binary andcould be he or she or they,
mm-hmm, and so like there issomething really meaty in that
as well.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
And this, like agra, occupies a both end, especially
in this universe, with thestrong duality of the two.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yes, yeah, yes yeah there's a lot here I was.
I was actually thinking it waslike this is a 30 or 90 minute
movie and I could.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I could do like three episodes on it, yeah yeah, let
me see if I can reflect backquickly some of the highlights.
I think you talked a lot aboutthe hero's journey, the Joseph
Campbell hero's journey, andalso its foil, which is the
Virgin's Promise, whichlisteners will link in the show
notes to two articles aboutthose things if you're not
familiar with those twoarchetypes, but they're story
archetypes that we sort of useto think about that.
(45:52):
We talked about gender as abinary and sort of the like in
some ways typical kind ofmid-man hero and his amazing
kick-ass female sidekick.
That's in this movie, which agenerous read would be that the
whole movie's about the factthat we need to stop separating
things into binaries.
And it's not that Jen was thechosen one, it's that Jen and
(46:14):
Kira were the chosen two.
Maybe the chosen ones the ones.
Yeah, thank you.
You brought the question of sortof the like the duality of the
Skeksis and the Mystics and likewhy do the Mystics need the
Skeksis?
Like how are the Ur-Skeksactually better than the Mystics
?
And so that actually got into amuch, much larger question
(46:37):
about the inherited binariesthat come from religious texts
very much so, and some of theproblems with them.
But then also even within thatthinking, within that structure,
like what is it that we'regetting at?
One of the things that youpointed out is that, from
childhood to today, finally,what starts to make sense is
(46:59):
thinking about the duality ofpassivity and activity and the
importance of that.
I pointed out the fact thateach of these characteristics
are in and of themselves,neutral, like money.
My finance writing sister says,like it's not that money is
good or evil, it's how it isused, withheld, earned, etc.
(47:19):
That is good or bad, not themoney itself.
I use the metaphor of a brick,which can both build and destroy
.
You spoke at length about or notat length, but you you were
passionate, effusive about thebeauty of this film and the
cohesiveness of the world'sbuilding.
You compared it to everyillustration in the book Cloudy
(47:40):
with a Chance of Meatballs andhow delightful that is, and also
how you felt, sort of like aninsider, like you got it,
because you noticed a lot of thethings.
And that was true for bothCloudy with a Chance of
Meatballs and this film, whereevery single sort of still is
like rich and alive.
And then the last thing thatI'm going to say and then fill
(48:03):
in, what I missed is your focuson ugliness and beauty and the
fact that beauty is kind ofboring.
And you had brought in the factthat Henson is not afraid to
scare children and I suggestthat his ugliness is more
interesting is actually part ofthat of not being afraid to
scare because safe and beautifuland sort of calm and whatever
(48:28):
is boring and there's no lessonsthere and there's no like
aliveness there.
What did I miss?
I?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
don't think you missed anything, but I do want
to just highlight one thing.
So one of the screenwriterssaid that if he hadn't read Seth
Speaks, he would not have comeup with one of my favorite lines
, where Agra, when she meets Jen, she says where's your master,
meaning the wisest of themystics?
And he says, oh, he's dead.
And she goes hmm, he could beanywhere then, which is a
(48:54):
fantastic line, and he could nothave come up with it without
having read this very weird book.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Very weird, that's so cool, that's so cool, all right
, I love it.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So next week, what are you bringing me?
I?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
don't remember.
What am I bringing you?
Firefly, Really Next week, Okayyeah.
Oh well, next week I am prettyexcited to bring my deep
thoughts about Firefly andSerenity Talk to you then See
you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(49:30):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
(49:51):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Thank you to Resonate .
Resonate recordings for editingtoday's episode until next time
.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Remember.
Pop culture is still culture,and shouldn't you know what's in
your head?
As a kid I really struggled with the idea that the
Skeksis and the Mystics weretwo halves of a whole, because
the Skeksis were so clearlyawful and the Mystics were so
clearly good.
And one of the things that Iread last night that really
stuck with me was that theMystics for a thousand years
have just been chilling in thisvalley by themselves, and it was
(00:23):
saying part of this duality ispassivity versus action, and so
the mystics are good but theydon't do anything with it.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1982 Jim Henson film, theDark Crystal, with my sister,
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, trace, I know you've seenit.
(01:16):
This is part of our sharedchildhood, but tell me what's in
your head about the DarkCrystal.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, man, I loved it so much.
I think we must have watched itwith Chris, our cousin, like,
oh God, I loved it so much.
So what's in my head?
I actually, I feel like Iwatched it again within the past
must be 13 years like since mydaughter was born and I remember
being like, oh no, like Iremember thinking like you can't
(01:44):
go home again sometimes.
So so here's my recollection,though.
There were these little fairycreatures I remember a boy and a
girl, and then they had likewings, or one of them did anyway
, and there's some sort of anadventure and there are bad guys
.
They're called the skeksis, Ithink, and they're all like
hunchbacked and like like thatweird Frank Oz voice that he
(02:07):
does when he's like being a hag,you know, like a crone, and
they had magic and they had thisgiant crystal and there was a
small shard missing from it, andI don't remember any of the
journey of the adventure, but Iremember there was like an
impulse either to or not returnthe shard back into the giant
(02:28):
crystal, and then like aunification, because the Skeksis
and the whatever the fairycreatures are called they had a
different name like wereactually from the same creature.
That had been like likecosmically or magically, like
separated into two parts, likeseparated into two parts, and
the skeksi for some reasonwanted to destroy that part of
(02:49):
them.
That was like the magical,childlike attractive versions of
them.
You're a little bit off, butokay that's cool well, go ahead,
you'll correct me.
I mean, that's the thing.
This is what's in my head, thisis in my head and there is some
sort of like reunification andlike a big light shine.
I remember like being veryenamored with the relationship
between the two of the fairycreatures whose name I don't
(03:09):
remember, and there was aromance between them and I
remember sort of really beinglike enamored of that, whatever
that relationship was, whetherit was actually romance or I
projected romance, like that'swhat's in my memory and in
rewatching, I think the thingthat sticks in my head from like
as an adult seeing it, was likethere's no there there and the
(03:30):
thing that I had totally likeidealized and really like been
enamored with was just vacuous.
So that's what's in my head.
It's like complicated and likethis is you know Anyway.
So that's what's there.
But I would love to hear fromyou like why are we talking
about it today?
What are we going to talk abouttoday?
Speaker 1 (03:50):
and like, correct me on the plot so as for why we're
talking about it today, like you, I really loved this film as a
child.
It just holds a place in my mymemory as this like journey.
It is like the movie version ofthe book Cloudy with a Chance
(04:11):
of Meatballs.
I don't know if you have anykind of relationship with that
book.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Not really so.
My relationship with the bookmaybe we'll do this on another
episode actually came after themovie, because the movie made me
laugh so hard.
I was like, oh, I feel like weread this.
Anyway, carry on.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
I actually haven't seen the movie because it is so
different from the book.
Oh my God, it's hilarious, I'msure it is.
It's just the thing that Iloved about the book was I liked
the story, but eachillustration was just full to
bursting with its own littlestories and so, on rewatching
(04:47):
this film, I remember feelingthe same kind of like sense of
wonder and discovery and likeI'm in on something, because I
notice all of the creatures, allof the different little details
that create this world of Thra.
I wanted to kind of revisitthat.
There was also it's been aboutsix years ago now but Netflix
(05:09):
did a prequel where they andthey did all Muppets, they
didn't do any CGI other thanlike the background stuff that
they couldn't do in 1982.
So my son got really into it,and so that's another reason is
because there's this connectionI have with my son being really
interested in this worldbuilding.
So what I want to talk aboutlike I do want to talk about
(05:33):
gender a bit and some of whatyou were talking about, you know
, remembering there being thisromance there's an aspect of
that as well, and specifically Iwant to talk about gender and
the hero's journey.
So that's one aspect of it.
Another thing is spiritualityis like deeply embedded through
this, and some of it is.
Jim Henson had these very likegrand ideas and in fact Jim
(05:56):
Henson took some ideas from thebook Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts
, who was both a science fictionwriter and a psychic medium.
Roberts, who was both a sciencefiction writer and a psychic
medium, and so Seth Speaks wasshe would go into these trances
and speak with aninterdimensional being.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I've heard of her.
Have you?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, becauseEsther Hicks, who's like a
famous person who claims to bechanneling guides, talks about
Seth Speaks.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Cool, okay, sorry, carry on so.
And Henson in fact bought likea bunch of copies and gave it to
everyone who was making thisfilm and, like read this.
And he actually said, like Idon't entirely understand it,
and you will understand it ornot understand it in your own
way.
Some of the things that I foundpuzzling as a child I think are
part of that, and that'ssomething that I'm hoping you
(06:42):
can help me with is religion andlooking at like duality and
things like that.
I'm going to want to talk aboutlike there's a lot of like
these duality and like pushbackagainst the usual way of looking
at like binaries.
I want to talk about why Hensonwas so comfortable writing, or
not just comfortable, or notjust comfortable.
(07:07):
He wanted to write stories thatcould scare children, because
he felt that we need to scarethem a little bit.
Stories can't be too safe.
And I want to talk about thevisual beauty of this film,
because it is unbelievable.
Those are the kind of thingsthat I want to get into.
Let me give you a synopsis ofthe plot, though it's not said
(07:27):
during the story.
This is the land of Thra, andthere's a voiceover saying that
it's another world, another time, during the Age of Wonder and
it explains that a thousandyears ago the Great Crystal was
cracked and the land that hadbeen good and green became like
this horrible desert.
And there are two kind ofethereal beings, types of
(07:51):
ethereal beings, sort of thing.
The one set lives in this likecastle that is just this ugly
blades, basically, is what thecastle looks like.
And they're the Skeksis.
Now, skeksis is like moose inthat it is plural and singular,
but I'm probably going to referto an individual Skeksi as
without the S.
(08:12):
So there are 10 Skeksis leftand on this day the emperor is
dying.
The Skeksis are evil and crueland materialistic.
They are like rat vulturecreatures that wear these like
velvets and, like you know,royal garb Like draping robes.
(08:34):
I remember Draping robes, yes.
At the same time, we learn thatthere are 10 mystics that live
in a valley and the wisest ofthe mystics is dying.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Oh right, it's not the fairies and the Skeksis,
it's the Skeksis and the mystics.
Right, got it?
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Sorry and so the wisest mystic calls his protege
to him, and that is a gelflingnamed Jen, and Jen is the last
of the gelflings, because all oftheir kind were killed by the
Skeksis.
So we see the Emperor die.
We see the wisest mystic die.
(09:13):
The mystic tells Jen that hemust find the shard and take it
to the castle and he's likewhere do I find the shard?
Go to Agra.
She is about a day's journeyaway and must do this before the
three sons meet.
We see the Skeksis without theemperor, there is a power vacuum
and the emperor and the wisestmystic both die at the same time
(09:38):
.
So there's this kind ofconnection between them, this
kind of connection between them.
The Chamberlain and the generalfight over who will be emperor
and they do trial by stone,where they each have a sword and
they are hitting a huge stoneand whoever knocks it knocks,
the top off wins.
The Chamberlain has this reallyinteresting way of they talk
(10:01):
about him whimpering he goes,and that when I learned the word
obsequious was what I thoughtof.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
I think that's what I meant when I said like Frank Oz
doing this sort of like cronevoice, yes, and actually that's
not Frank Oz's doing the voice.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, it's a different voice actor and
puppeteer, I think as well.
So the general wins and becausehe has won, the Chamberlain
becomes an outcast, which meanshis robes are ripped from him
and he is sent away.
Jen starts on his journey.
There's a lot of really weirdvoiceover where it's just his
(10:38):
thoughts.
That I think don't serve thefilm well.
I think it would be better ifwe just watched him.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
I wonder if that was somebody telling Jim like we
don't understand what'shappening.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
I don't know, I don't know.
So Jen continually says andthinks things like I'm only a
gelfling and he doesn'tunderstand what he's doing or
what's going on.
He comes upon Agra, he's doingor what's going on.
He comes upon Agra, who was thecharacter I remembered best,
other than the Skeksis.
She is this like wizened, likeold creature.
(11:13):
She has enormous breasts, butshe also has ram's horns and
like kind of not quite a beard,and she only has one eye, which
when we first meet her Jen hasbeen like pulled up in a trap
that's up high, and so she'sholding her eye up to see him
and she is kind of Yoda-like innot really answering questions.
(11:35):
She takes him into her home andshe explains I was there when
the Great Crystal cracked In herhome.
Is this like observatory?
That's what they call it.
I can't think of what it'scalled, but it's like the
whirling like planets and stuffLike a planetarium.
Yeah, but it's like an orlogeor something like that.
(11:57):
There's a specific name for Forthe like kinetic sculpture,
that is the planet.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yes, yes, the like kinetic sculpture that is the
planet.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Yes.
And so she says, like the greatconjunction is coming, when the
three suns meet, could be theend of the world, could be the
beginning, no idea.
And so he says, well, I needthe shard, you have the shard.
And she says where is it?
And she finds a box and shepours it out and there's like a
dozen of them, there's a dozenshards.
(12:24):
And he says how do I know whichone it is?
Which is it?
And she says I don't know.
So he has seen an image of theshard.
So he narrows it down to threethat look like the image.
And then we've seen him playinghis little flute and we see
that the mystics like kind ofchance, like that om kind of
(12:48):
thing from meditation,meditation, and so he pulls out
his flute and plays a note andit causes one of the shards to
glow and he knows that's thecorrect one.
Meanwhile the skeksis havelearned that there is still one
gelfling left and we learnedthat they killed them all
because there was a prophecythat it would be a gelfling that
healed the crystal and endedthe Skeksis.
So they send their army, whichare these kind of like giant
(13:10):
crab, spider creatures calledthe Garthim.
So they send them to find Jenand they arrive at Agra's home
and destroy it and Jen is ableto get away, but he is far away
and can see it burning and hethinks that Agra is dead.
So he's still not entirely surewhat it is he's supposed to do
(13:34):
with the shard.
He continues on his journey andhe is kind of tracked for a
little bit and he knows someoneis tracking him but he doesn't
know what's going on.
And then he runs into this tinylittle puff ball of a creature,
fizgig, that like barks at himI remember that it's like a
tribble with a dog face, yes,and a dog tail.
(13:57):
A person with a hood comes andis talking to Fizgig in another
language and he has fallen intosome water and like is stuck in
the mud and is talking to Fizgigin another language.
And he has fallen into somewater and is stuck in the mud
and is talking to Fizgig.
And then she pulls off her hoodand she's another Gelfling and
he's like I thought I was theonly one.
She's like I thought I was theonly one.
She gives him her hand to helphim out of the water and they
(14:18):
dream fast, which means they cansuddenly hear and see each
other's memories, and so welearn that Jen was rescued after
his family was killed by themystics and raised by them, and
Kira, which is this othergelfling's name.
She was saved from thedestruction of the gelfling
village because her mother puther in a tree and then was taken
(14:42):
away, and so the Garthim didn'tsee her there, and so she has
been raised by the Podlings,which is another creature that
lives in this area, and we'veseen Podlings that are like less
colorful, working as slaves forthe Skeksis.
So Kira brings Jen back to hervillage.
There's this lovely scene ofthe Podlings celebrating them
(15:05):
and dancing and eating andhaving a wonderful time, and
they talk a little bit aboutwhat's happening.
The Garthim come and destroy thevillage and Jen and Kira get
away.
Jen is injured and he's reallyupset because he feels like he's
responsible for the villagebeing destroyed.
(15:26):
He throws the shard away fromhim and Kira says the Garthim
have always come.
This was not your fault.
She heals his arm, they sleepand the next morning they
realize where they are.
They're at an old gelflingvillage and Kira says I don't
want to go here.
We don't go here anymore.
It's a bad place because of thethings that happened here.
(15:47):
But they still go and exploreand they find a mural that's
carved in stone, that shows thegreat crystal.
They showed it cracking.
Kira says, well, what is thatup there?
And he says it's writing.
She's like what's writing?
He says words that stay, mymaster taught me, and so he's
(16:07):
able to read it and read theprophecy, which tells him that
the shard must heal the darkcrystal at the moment of the
great conjunction.
While they're there, theChamberlain, who has been
following them, finds them andsays I'm trying to be your
friend.
We made a horrible mistakekilling the Gelflings.
We did it because we wereafraid of them, and if I take
(16:29):
you to the castle and show youthat we all just want peace,
everything will be okay.
And Jen is looking like hemight be listening to the
Chamberlain and Kira saying no,let's go away, let's get away.
And finally Jen says no, no,I'm not doing this.
So they run and Jen is kind ofdespairing, like well, we have
(16:52):
to get to the castle.
I don't know where it is, Idon't know how to get there, I
don't know how far away it is.
And Kira says oh well, I canhelp you.
And he says well, you don'thave to come with me.
She's like calls some animalsthat are these giant creatures
called land striders, and evenas a kid I could tell that it
was a person on stilts withstilts in their hands.
(17:13):
And so they ride.
It's just amazing characterdesign, like even knowing that
that's a human being in there.
I still remember finding itmagical.
So they ride the land stridersto the castle.
During all this time we havebeen seeing the mystics are
starting to make their way tothe castle as well.
(17:34):
They're walking very slowly.
They get close to the castleand they see the Gartham that
had attacked the village withlike a bag, like a cage full of
the podlings.
And Kira says we have to helpthem.
And she rides her land striderover and is attacking the
Gartham and Jen goes and triesto help her.
(17:56):
They manage to open the cage tolet the podlings out.
The Gartham are coming towardsthem and so Kira grabs Jen
they're right on the edge of acliff grabs Jen and jumps over
the edge and then wings pop outand so they float down.
When they get to the bottom,jen says and I remember loving
this as a little girl like Idon't have wings.
(18:18):
And she said of course not.
You're a boy, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Which is like a gender essentialism interesting
thing that I want to talk aboutas well yeah, it's funny because
when I was telling you what Iremembered, I was like they have
wings.
Nope, one of them has wings,and I like that was in my head
that it wasn't.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, sorry, carry on they find a back way into the
castle.
Kira again is afraid, but shegoes with jen.
They had, by the way, he hadthrown the shard.
They did find it the next day,so they do have the shard when
they get into the castle.
The Chamberlain finds themthere and ends up grabbing Kira,
(18:57):
and one of the two of themstrikes him with the crystal,
which causes like, not only cutshim but also causes this like
sound that all of the Skeksisand all the mystics hear.
We have meanwhile seen that oneof the Skeksis, who's like a
scientist, put a new podlinginto a chair, like tied down in
(19:22):
front of the chamber where it'slike a long column where the
crystal is, and opens it upslightly with a reflector so
that the purple of the crystallike shines into the podling's
eyes and that drains his essence, which then the emperor drinks
to remain young.
It works, but the effects are.
(19:44):
I found myself going sadlytemporary.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, like Beaker, like Beaker, me, me, me, me, me,
me, me, me, me, me, me me.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
So the effects are very temporary.
The emperor is angry and he'slike you're a liar.
And we hear the scientists saylike it worked better with
gelflings.
So, oi, yeah, lost basicallyhis will and that is why the
(20:13):
slave podlings in the castlelook so different from the ones
in the village.
So Kira is fighting to get awayfrom the Chamberlain.
The Chamberlain had been tryingto entice them and gets angry
and throws something at Jen thatcauses like a stone collapse.
So not sure if Jen is okay ornot, and Kira is being pulled
(20:35):
away.
Fizgig is trying to follow Kiraand Kira says no, stay with Jen
.
So the Chamberlain comes intothe main chamber with Kira and
everyone was like Gelfling,gelfling, they're so afraid Kira
.
And everyone was like Gelfling,gelfling, they're so afraid.
And Chamberlain says you know,this is my Gelfling, I found it,
(20:57):
I'm bringing it back.
And so the Emperor says allright, fine, you can have your
robes back and I want heressence.
So Chamberlain gets his robesback and Kira is brought to the
scientist's room, which isfilled with cages of animals and
Agra, because the Garthim hadbrought her back after they had
(21:18):
destroyed her home.
So Kira is terrified that she'sstrapped in the way the podling
had been and you can see herwill being, her essence being
sapped from her.
Somehow, jen and Kira areconnected.
He comes out of the rocks andhe goes.
Kira fight them and she hears,even though they can't actually
(21:38):
hear in terms of how far awaythey are.
Agra says call the animals.
They listen to you.
You have that gift.
And so she begins calling allthe animals that are in this
little dungeon area and theyforce themselves out of their
cages and they attack thescientist and they help her get,
they close the entrance andthey help her get out of the
(21:59):
restraints.
Something that I just want topoint out because it is so
amazing she has like lines underher eyes afterwards that she
didn't before, because some ofher essence has been like she
gets bags under her eyes.
Yes, she gets bags under hereyes afterwards that she didn't
before, because some of heressence has been like she gets
bags under her eyes.
Yes, she gets bags under hereyes.
So jen has gotten out and foundhis way to the crystal room and
(22:24):
there's a skylight over it thatshows where the suns are.
Kira finds her way to thecrystal room as well, as the
Skeksis are arriving, becausethey will become immortal and
rule forever if they can getthrough the Great Conjunction
without the crystal being healed.
Fizgig finds Kira and startsbarking, which attracts the
attention of the Skeksis, and soFizgig gets pushed into the
(22:47):
giant shaft down like lava orwhatever it is, and they grab
Kira.
So Jen jumps onto the crystaland he has the shard and he
loses it and ends up on thefloor and Kira grabs it.
They're saying give it to usand we'll let you go, we'll let
(23:10):
you free.
Jen's saying yes, don't hurther, don't hurt her, let her
free.
Kira says no, heal the crystal.
And throws the shard to Jen.
He's sitting on top of the darkcrystal just as she is stabbed
by a Skeksis and dies.
And Jen waits until the threesons are one and plunges the
shard into the crystal.
(23:31):
This is just as the mystics havearrived and strange things are
happening.
The Skeksis are kind of runningaround, light goes everywhere
and the mystics and the Skeksismerge together as the Ur-Skeks
and they explain to Jen, who isnow on the ground with Kira's
(23:51):
body.
You know, through our arrogancewe split ourselves and
fractured the crystal and now weare whole again.
This is now the crystal oftruth and try to remake the
world in its image.
Hold Kira to you, she is yoursagain and they've brought her
back to life.
(24:11):
Agra arrives, she has rescuedFizgig and then the Urskaks like
ascend in light and that's theend of the story.
That's a lot.
Yeah, that's a lot, and it's a90-minute movie.
So I want to talk about, like,the hero's journey in gender,
(24:32):
and specifically they actuallyuse the term Jen is the chosen
one and I was like they chosethe wrong one.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Kira's a badass and she has wings.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Yeah, kira's got wings.
She would have just flown up toput the thing in there.
I think they're gliding wings.
I think they're like wings that, like you, can fly down.
I don't think they fly up.
She thinks she needs gravity tohelp her.
Yeah.
But so Kira's a badass.
She can call the animals, sheknows Gelfling history, which
Jen does not.
She has the presence of mind atthe end to say no, heal the
(25:10):
crystal at the end, to say no,heal the crystal to Jen rather
than save me, because they'renot going to let me go free, and
so she's afraid.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
And does it?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
anyway, that's the definition of bravery.
Yeah, so she's amazing andshe's a sidekick.
Only thing that jen brings tothe table is he can read I mean
that's a lot.
I'm not saying it's not, and solike now, one of the things that
I think is interesting is I, asa kid, I really struggled with
(25:46):
the idea that the skeksis andthe mystics were two halves of a
whole, because the skeksis wereso clearly awful and the
mystics were two halves of awhole, because the Skeksis were
so clearly awful and the mysticswere so clearly good.
And I understand that peopleare souls, are complete, like
they have the capacity for good,they have the capacity for evil
.
But I was just like I don't seehow the mystics are bad without
(26:10):
the Skeksis, like I can see whythe Skeksis are bad without the
mystics.
And one of the things that Iread last night that really
stuck with me was that themystics for a thousand years
have just been chilling in thisvalley by themselves, and it was
saying part of this duality ispassivity versus action, and so
(26:32):
the mystics are good but theydon't do anything with it,
whereas the Skeksis haveincredible agency.
They are consistently likejockeying for position and
making decisions and changingthings and manipulating, and so
that I was able to be like, oh,that's good, that is a good
(26:55):
thing that the Skeksis have thatthey're using for evil, and so,
with that in mind I wasthinking about.
Like Jen is a very passivecharacter in a lot of ways, like
he doesn't want to leave thevalley where he's lived, he
doesn't want to go on this quest.
Like this is not like, oh, Ifinally get to explore the world
(27:16):
.
It's just like I really wish Iwere back in my valley.
He's willing to listen to theChamberlain because that's
easier by the Podlings, who are,you know, they're not the same
(27:41):
as her Gelfling family, but theyare people who recognize, like,
the danger inherent in theworld they live in and they find
a way to live within it.
Like the fact that we see themjust celebrating and joyful is
really important and impressive,I think.
Important and impressive, Ithink, which leaves me in this
weird place with the Hero'sJourney, because Jen is in some
ways feels more like theVirgin's Promise, which I only
recently learned about, andrecently in the past couple
(28:03):
years.
So the Virgin's Promise isanother archetypal story, like
the Hero's Journey, that focusesmore on stories that are more
likely to have a femaleprotagonist, where there are
expectations placed on the maincharacter that she must break
out of to be true to herself.
(28:23):
And while there's a lot that's,you know, jen refuses the call,
has an older mentor who dies,you know, descends into the
underworld, all of those thingsthat fit the Campbell hero's
journey.
There's aspects of the Virgin'spromise in the like, the
passivity, and like not to saythat Virgin's promise is always
(28:43):
passive, but there is thestarting off with the
expectation of living for othersand so, and then the fact that
Jen's name is Jen in 1982.
And the look of Jen and Kira iskind of humanoid, very feminine
, looking Like.
I texted you last night while Iwas watching I was like Jen is
(29:25):
a Muppet twink.
She did.
She texted me that who is thedriving force once they meet and
is the one who knows things.
It's just frustrating becauseso often stories have a hapless
male protagonist and a badassfemale sidekick.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
So that's really interesting to me though, seeing
that duality and like kind ofthe idea that jen and kira are
complete at the end because theycomplement each other in the
ways that the skeksis and themystics complement yeah, I
definitely think there's meantto be a mirror there, right like
jen may be the chosen one, buthe couldn't do it without kira,
(30:08):
like they're actually the chosentwo, you know, and like the
sort of holding both of a binaryis the thesis of this film.
It sounds like, right like that, the two halves of the binary.
You must have both in order tobe complete and whole and
healthy, and whatever.
And jen and kira are two halvesof a binary.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
Yes, Just seems like Jen's half is like a little mid.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Well, you know, art reflects life, yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Yeah, so I know, as a child I really struggled with
the idea that the Erskinex werewhole.
I'm like, what did the Skeksisbring to the table?
And that's actually one thing Iwanted to kind of talk to you
about, because you have thebackground in religion, like
that idea of duality.
Why do we need the ugliness,the capacity for cruelty, along
(31:05):
with the good and the passivityin action?
Really helped for me to seethat and like, honestly, in our
current political climate, Ifeel like I see that where we
have, you know, like we sent astrongly worded letter with 13
points to the people who arelike currently taking a chainsaw
(31:26):
to the government, right, right.
So like I definitely see likeokay, yeah, we need a little
more of that.
That's kind of action.
But what am I missing?
Speaker 2 (31:37):
here.
It's such a complicatedquestion and I actually want to
zoom out a little bit and ask aneven bigger question.
I think that we have been giventhis idea of binaries and
binary thinking, especially inthe West, binary thinking as,
like, the way to think right.
And it comes from religioussources.
(31:57):
We have from Torah and fromChristian scripture.
We have there's clean andunclean, there's holy and
there's profane, there's day andthere's night.
These two sides of binaries islike over and over again in
religious texts as well.
Male and female and body andsoul is a classic one that we
(32:20):
think about religiously.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
So the Skeksis would be body and the Mystics would be
soul.
Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, I actually think that we are ill-served
when we think of binaries hurtbecause they are hurt by the
(32:57):
traditional male-female binary,but I think the point that they
are making is actually much,much bigger, like there's a
specific way in which thatbinary hurts our siblings, who
are gender non-conforming.
But I think there's an abstractway in which binaries, when
held rigidly, hurt us.
(33:18):
Period, right.
And it's not just like ketchupor mustard Well, actually I like
relish.
It's not just sort of thosesorts of preferences, it's also
like the rigidity in thinkingand the inability to sort of see
third paths or fourth paths ortenth paths through.
So that's like just like abroader commentary I want to
talk about In terms of, likewhat Henson was drawing on, the
(33:42):
cultural kind of lessons withinthe binary thinking.
The body and soul is a great oneto talk about, because I think
there are those, you know.
You think about the classicCartesian, I think.
Therefore, I am Nope, thatain't it.
Ai thinks, is it a person?
(34:02):
Mm-hmm.
And my thinking, I know, isdeeply influenced by my
embodiment, right.
So I'm just staying within theduality right now, like not even
like the materiality of thefact that if there weren't a
physical brain, there would beno thinking, because somebody
might argue with me that it'ssoul and not brain.
(34:23):
I'm not sure I agree with them.
But also, like I know the waysin which, like when I'm
exercising regularly, when I'meating well, my thinking is
clearer, is clearer, and theways in which, like, we feel and
think, when people talk aboutthinking with your gut, that's
not just a metaphor, right likethere's a, there's a thing that
(34:43):
happens in embodiment andthere's research that's been
talked about, about, sort oflike the secondary brain or
whatever that's you know, likeliterally in the gut and the gut
biome affects thinking.
Like all of these things, allof these ways in which the idea
of a duality that can be trulyseparated the way that the
Skeksis and the mystics did, isfalse.
(35:04):
And so I think, like withinthat received understanding of
duality, like Henson's messageis real and powerful.
And I think for you know, foryou, I mean there's theologians
have been talking about this theactual question you asked me
why do we need evil Like?
Why did God make evil in theworld?
What purpose does it serve?
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Like we've been asking.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Humans have been asking ourselves that question,
or versions of that question,for thousands of years.
So I don't pretend to have theanswer, but some of the answers
that have been offered are likeyou can't recognize the light if
there is no darkness.
If you live in a world ofconstant day, you just take it
for granted, right, and youdon't recognize the ways in
(35:49):
which it's good.
So there is knowledge in thecontrast.
You can't have holiness withoutalso something that is mundane
and I'm saying mundane, notprofane Sort of that sense of
like contrast actually teachesus.
I think that's one of theanswers.
I think also, like some of theways that you notice with that
activity and passivity, like Ithink that that is real.
(36:11):
I think too, like you said youknow that is good that Skeksis
is used for evil.
I actually think all of it isneutral.
That can be used for good orfor evil, right.
Like even the sort of likechilling in the valley, like
meditating, is neutral and itcan be used to improve the world
(36:35):
and it can be used not right.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
But I think the mystics did not stop the
genocide of the Galfords.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
They didn't right.
I mean, they saved the one whoended up with them.
But, they, you know they didn'tactually use it to, like,
improve the world in bigger ways.
And so I think that's also apiece that I wanted to like kind
of name, that I think there's alot of things that we tend to
like associate with negative orpositive, but actually the thing
(37:01):
itself, the tool itself, isneutral, like a brick is neutral
.
It can be used to build a house, it can also be used to be
thrown through a window, but thebrick itself is neutral, and I
think that's true of all, justas money is neutral, exactly
Exactly.
And I think that's true of all,just as money is neutral,
exactly Exactly.
And I think that's true of allsort of the characteristics that
(37:22):
we're naming and in some ways,like assigning them as good and
evil, is part of what makes theconfusion.
Activity and passivity are bothactually neutral.
It depends on when and howthey're used.
Soul and body are actuallyneutral.
It depends on when and howthey're used, whether they're
good or evil.
And so I think that that, likeI just wanted to point that out
(37:44):
that part of the consequence ofbinary thinking is that we line
all of the like binaries of onetogether on one side and all the
binaries of the other on theother side.
That's part of how we end upwith the problems of race in
america where you know, white,straight, christian aligns on
(38:04):
sort of good and desirable, andblack and queer and not
christian ends up on the otherside.
But all of like there's nomerit or demerit in either side
and this film doesn'tnecessarily help with that Right
, because we see that the Skekswere anything other than pure
(38:26):
good when I was a child and Ithink some of that is like the
world building is amazing.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
The script is not great in this.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
I think that's my reaction as an adult.
Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And some of it is also like as a child, I needed a
line drawn, I needed the thesisunderlined that the mystics are
not using their nature toimprove things and in a lot of
ways they are the same as theSkeksis, even though they are
(39:09):
not actively harming.
But at the same time, the factthat it bothered me from the
time I was, you know, four yearsold and saw it for the first
time that the Skeksis andMystics become one creature like
that has stuck with me and Ihave turned it over in my head
whether or not I got the thesisunderlined and as a very black
(39:31):
and white thinker as a child andalso thinking like Jim Henson
was the bee's knees Well, he was, yeah, man was a child.
And also thinking like JimHenson was the bee's knees Well,
he was, yeah, man was a geniusA genius.
So there's so much.
Even though this is a flawedfilm, it really gave me a lot of
meat to chew on for years, eventhough there was a lot that I
(39:54):
still didn't understand up totoday and still don't understand
.
So we're running a little shorton time, so I want to make sure
that I get to another like kindof binary where I feel like
Henson was pushing back isugliness and beauty.
Oh, so what I recall from thisfilm from being a child, I
(40:14):
recall Agra, because I thoughtshe was awesome.
I loved that she could hold upher eye oh, her eye, yeah.
And then I loved that she knewthings and had been around
forever and took no shit andlike I just really, really liked
her.
And then the Chamberlain, themmm and all of that.
But also there's one of theSkeksis wears three different
(40:38):
eyeglasses down its nose.
I didn't really remember Jenand Kira Not that I didn't
remember them, but it just kindof glosses over them, except for
the wings.
And I was thinking about thefact that Jen and Kira are
beautiful Like the puppetsetsare made to look human-like and
they're made to be like highcheekbones and like big eyes.
(41:00):
They're traditionally attractive, traditionally attractive and
they're kind of boring, whereasthe really ugly characters like
Agra is ugly are justfascinating.
And even the Podlings are likethey're little potato people,
you know.
They're not even like asattractive as like Kermit or
(41:22):
Miss Piggy.
And then all of the creaturesthat we see, they are all like
bell-led, like you know, thebeautiful ugliness, like they're
all ugly, like the landstriders are these amazing
things, but their faces looklike a giant moth's face.
(41:45):
It's creepy.
And so I was thinking about whyHenson decided to do this.
Because one thing I wasthinking about, like Fizgig is
more expressive than either Jenor Kira, and it's a much simpler
puppet.
There's a point where Kira says, no, you're not coming with me,
and Fizzgig opens his mouth andgoes, ah, and it is like you
know exactly what that characteris feeling, whereas I don't.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, there's not a lot of emotionality in those two
.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Yeah, and so I was thinking about that kind of
binary, that duality of beautyversus ugliness, and there is
some of that like the beautifulis good because the gelflings
are good, but we see thepodlings who are not beautiful
and they're also good.
All of these, the land striders, are good and Agra.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah, I think that this is related to another thing
that you said, which is thathenson's not afraid to scare
children.
I think it's related insofar as, like, things that are safe and
pretty don't teach us very muchand they're not that
interesting and I think that'srelated.
It's all part of the sameaesthetic and understanding of
(42:52):
the world potentially you.
You know that, like there's areason that the things you
remember were the uglycharacters and the reason that
he put them in there, they'reall related.
He thinks that's where theinterest is, that that's where
the lessons are and that's likewhere like life is.
How does that land?
Speaker 1 (43:10):
I think that makes sense and I don't want to talk
about the prequel much.
I watched one episode of it andI don't want to talk about the
prequel much I watched oneepisode of it and I couldn't
keep going because it's aboutthe Gelflings.
Oh God, it's about genocide,yeah, and so it ends well before
the genocide begins.
But I know that the story endswith the main character deciding
not to kill the Skeksis becausethat's not who he is, and so
(43:32):
what that basically does is itgets into these, like these it's
not so black and white, youknow.
Choosing not to kill seems likea good thing, but we know that
that will lead to the genocideof his people, and so, like,
would it have been better forhim to do that?
Or is there like, is there akind of moral cowardice?
(43:53):
It asks these really reallydeep questions that I just I
don't want for my puppets, likeif it were, like, since it's a
prequel I struggle with prequelswhere we know that there's
something awful that comes inlater, yeah, so I think that
that is really fascinating aswell that we get into that with
these, the beautiful creaturesare the passive ones you know,
(44:19):
so yeah, I think that that doesfit with Henson not being afraid
to scare children, and I thinkit's also like there is
something to the like it's muchmore visually interesting when
things are asymmetrical.
And just a real quick talk aboutAgra again, because we've been
talking about duality andbinaries I have since seen, and
(44:40):
because there have been likebooks written like comic books,
written in the Dark Crystalworld, because Henson had
created an entire universe andjust was never able to make
anything other than this film.
Agra like just grew up out oflike the earth and trees, like
she just kind of created herselfand she is non-binary, like
(45:02):
it's not just a choice that shehas ram's horns and a beard and
breasts, she is non-binary andcould be he or she or they,
mm-hmm, and so like there issomething really meaty in that
as well.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
And this, like agra, occupies a both end, especially
in this universe, with thestrong duality of the two.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
Yes, yeah, yes yeah there's a lot here I was.
I was actually thinking it waslike this is a 30 or 90 minute
movie and I could.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
I could do like three episodes on it, yeah yeah, let
me see if I can reflect backquickly some of the highlights.
I think you talked a lot aboutthe hero's journey, the Joseph
Campbell hero's journey, andalso its foil, which is the
Virgin's Promise, whichlisteners will link in the show
notes to two articles aboutthose things if you're not
familiar with those twoarchetypes, but they're story
archetypes that we sort of useto think about that.
(45:52):
We talked about gender as abinary and sort of the like in
some ways typical kind ofmid-man hero and his amazing
kick-ass female sidekick.
That's in this movie, which agenerous read would be that the
whole movie's about the factthat we need to stop separating
things into binaries.
And it's not that Jen was thechosen one, it's that Jen and
(46:14):
Kira were the chosen two.
Maybe the chosen ones the ones.
Yeah, thank you.
You brought the question of sortof the like the duality of the
Skeksis and the Mystics and likewhy do the Mystics need the
Skeksis?
Like how are the Ur-Skeksactually better than the Mystics
?
And so that actually got into amuch, much larger question
(46:37):
about the inherited binariesthat come from religious texts
very much so, and some of theproblems with them.
But then also even within thatthinking, within that structure,
like what is it that we'regetting at?
One of the things that youpointed out is that, from
childhood to today, finally,what starts to make sense is
(46:59):
thinking about the duality ofpassivity and activity and the
importance of that.
I pointed out the fact thateach of these characteristics
are in and of themselves,neutral, like money.
My finance writing sister says,like it's not that money is
good or evil, it's how it isused, withheld, earned, etc.
(47:19):
That is good or bad, not themoney itself.
I use the metaphor of a brick,which can both build and destroy
.
You spoke at length about or notat length, but you you were
passionate, effusive about thebeauty of this film and the
cohesiveness of the world'sbuilding.
You compared it to everyillustration in the book Cloudy
(47:40):
with a Chance of Meatballs andhow delightful that is, and also
how you felt, sort of like aninsider, like you got it,
because you noticed a lot of thethings.
And that was true for bothCloudy with a Chance of
Meatballs and this film, whereevery single sort of still is
like rich and alive.
And then the last thing thatI'm going to say and then fill
(48:03):
in, what I missed is your focuson ugliness and beauty and the
fact that beauty is kind ofboring.
And you had brought in the factthat Henson is not afraid to
scare children and I suggestthat his ugliness is more
interesting is actually part ofthat of not being afraid to
scare because safe and beautifuland sort of calm and whatever
(48:28):
is boring and there's no lessonsthere and there's no like
aliveness there.
What did I miss?
I?
Speaker 1 (48:34):
don't think you missed anything, but I do want
to just highlight one thing.
So one of the screenwriterssaid that if he hadn't read Seth
Speaks, he would not have comeup with one of my favorite lines
, where Agra, when she meets Jen, she says where's your master,
meaning the wisest of themystics?
And he says, oh, he's dead.
And she goes hmm, he could beanywhere then, which is a
(48:54):
fantastic line, and he could nothave come up with it without
having read this very weird book.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
Very weird, that's so cool, that's so cool, all right
, I love it.
Speaker 1 (49:05):
So next week, what are you bringing me?
I?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
don't remember.
What am I bringing you?
Firefly, Really Next week, Okayyeah.
Oh well, next week I am prettyexcited to bring my deep
thoughts about Firefly andSerenity Talk to you then See
you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
(49:30):
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
(49:51):
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (49:54):
Thank you to Resonate .
Resonate recordings for editingtoday's episode until next time
.
Speaker 2 (49:59):
Remember.
Pop culture is still culture,and shouldn't you know what's in
your head?
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