September 9, 2025 • 49 mins
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"It's like we say in St. Olaf—Christmas without fruitcake is like St. Sigmund's Day without the headless boy."
On this week's episode, Tracie and Emily prove that you can go home again to beloved pop culture from the 1980s, as long as you're talking about The Golden Girls. The episodic adventures of Dorothy, Blanche, Rose, and Sophia weren't written with the Guy sisters in mind (they were in elementary school when the show debuted in 1985), but they loved the snappy comedy, the relationships between the four women, and the comforting knowledge that every problem would find a solution within 22 minutes, plus commercials.
Emily also found comfort in Betty White's portrayal of the constantly underestimated Rose Nylund, whose sweet-but-dim persona allowed her to make some of the most biting commentary of any of the characters since no one expected it. As someone who was also consistently treated as "sweet" because of how she looked, White's example taught Emily how to use being underestimated to her advantage.
While much of the more risque comedy sailed right over their oblivious heads as children, Emily and Tracie learned a number of feminist and socially progressive lessons along with the delicious snark and silly St. Olaf stories since show runner Susan Harris intentionally set out to make a subversive show and the four lead actors were all committed to gay rights, anti-racism, and feminism in addition to being gifted comedians.
While not everything in The Golden Girls has aged as well as the four main characters, it is one of the rare 1980s pop culture phenomena that is both of its time and very much ahead of its time.
Thank you for being a listener. Throw on the headphones and listen again!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1074829590
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
And it also gave a kind of rounded view of aging
and a rounded view of thedifficulties of marriage, of
friendship, of finance, offinding your way in life after a
point where the happily everafter is supposed to be done.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1980s-era sitcom GoldenGirls with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in.
(01:05):
So, tracy, I know you've seenthe show we watched it together
in the 80s and early 90s buttell me what's in your head
about the Golden Girls?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I love that show so much.
The first thing that comes tomind is the soundtrack or the
theme song Thank you for being afriend.
That's a great theme song, yeah, but I really I actually have
seen many episodes fairlyrecently as well, so it's not
that's a great theme song, sortof this alternative idea of what
it looks like after 50.
(01:34):
Like they're not living innuclear families, none of them
are living with men, even thoughthey're all straight and
they're living together and sortof having that core friendship
(01:55):
group be the kind of anchor forhome life as like an alternative
that now I'm like damn, thatreally appeals and I don't know
if I understood in the 80s whatan alternative that is that most
(02:16):
people don't get.
So that's the thing that comesup the most for me right now,
although Dorothy, blanche,sophia and Rose are very real
for me.
So I don't want to spend toolong on this because I really
want to get into your analysis.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout the Golden Girls today?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So I'm going to remind you of something that I
am certain you don't remember.
I think I was about 10 and youwere about 13.
And I said to you which goldengirl is your favorite?
And you said to me Sophia ofcourse I know you don't remember
this and I know why you saidthat, because she has the most
(02:55):
biting responses Because in myhead it was.
I was like it's Rose.
Rose was my favorite.
I would not have been able toarticulate why Rose was my
favorite and it took me years tobe able to figure it out.
And part of it is has to dowith the fact that Betty White
kind of took on I think she wastypecast but took on the Rose
(03:18):
persona after that, where sheand part of it has to do with
she was this adorable older lady.
Where she and part of it has todo with she was this adorable
older lady.
She was remarkably pretty Ifyou look at pictures of her.
I mean, she was remarkablypretty as an older woman, but if
you look at pictures of her asa young woman, she was a
knockout and she had blonde hairas an older woman.
But you know you also have thisexpectation of pretty older
(03:40):
women of not having a thought intheir head, and so people would
assume.
And then Rose Nyland, you know,was kind of the ditzy like tell
these stories that made nosense from St Olaf, and so
people assumed she was dumb.
And then she would come outwith these incisive, like just
like scalpel sharp remarks andyou couldn't tell if she was
(04:05):
saying them without knowing howhow much she was cutting you
down or if she knew exactly whatshe was doing.
And that was what I liked, evenas a 10 year old yeah, it's
this.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
you're reminding me of that, like right now in my
life, like I'm realizing, like Iam always the snarky bitch in
the room, so it makes sense thatSophia was my favorite.
I mean, sometimes I'm mad atmyself for the snarky bitch in
the room, so it makes sense thatSophia was my favorite.
I mean, sometimes I'm mad atmyself, I cannot hold it in.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I am the snarky bitch in the room and the thing is
from the jump people have lookedat me and they see like, oh,
sweet little Emily, we need toprotect sweet little Emily One
of my kids' favorite stories,which I shouldn't have told them
this.
But when my eldest was threeand my youngest was a babe in
arms, we were with friends whodid not have children.
(04:53):
The eldest was sleeping in hisstroller and the youngest could
not understand English.
And one of my friends said shitand went like, oh my goodness,
oh no, to me, not to my husband,to me, because of saying that
in front of the baby and again,this is like because of the
Betty White influence I said, oh, you don't have to worry about
(05:15):
that.
This one's first word'sprobably gonna be clown fucker,
because that is just likesubverting the expectation of
the sweet-faced.
So that is part of why I wantto talk about this, not
necessarily now, but that issomething that I have been
thinking about, and then we'vebeen talking about some heavier
(05:36):
stuff, so I wanted to get intoit.
That's why now, but Betty Whiteteaching me that it didn't
matter that I'm underestimated,because that's something that
has bothered the crap out of memy entire life.
Always has always bothered methat people look at me and go,
oh sweet little Emily, oh, wecan't say anything in front of
her, she's going to clutch herpearls has always bothered me
(05:58):
and part of what I have takenfrom Golden Girls is how Rose
Nyland, as played by Betty White, just doesn't let it affect her
.
It's just, you know, believeabout me what you want, yeah,
yeah.
So that's why there's a bunchof other stuff that is, I think,
really important about thisshow and I'm very glad I watched
(06:20):
as a tiny child, even though somuch of it went over my head.
Right, I watched as a tinychild, even though so much of it
went over my head.
This show was so subversive.
It was normalized for me as asix-year-old because it came out
as of 1985.
It was 1985 to 1992 that it wasnormal for there to be a show
about these older women over theage of 50.
(06:40):
So these three women in their50s.
And then Sophia was in her 80sbecause she's Dorothy's mother
and that seemed normal to me.
But it was incrediblysubversive.
It was very intentionallyprogressive.
Susan Harris, the showrunner,had been working on the show
Maud, that Dorothy was, excuseme, that Bea Arthur had been on
(07:02):
and she had been the one towrite the episode or was behind
the episode about Maud'sabortion, and so she had worked
on All in the Family, which hadalso been a very progressive
show.
So she was intentional in beingprogressive and these four
amazing talented actors were onthe vanguard for a lot of gay
(07:23):
rights.
So that was an intentionalthing and was something that I
was imbibing as a child and I'mvery glad that I was doing so,
even though there are somethings that look very dated now,
although there's a lot that Iwonder if they'd be allowed to
put on TV now, that if it wouldseem too progressive or too woke
(07:45):
.
Yeah, totally.
And it also gave a kind ofrounded view of aging and a
rounded view of the difficultiesof marriage, of friendship, of
finance, of finding your way inlife after a point where the
(08:07):
happily ever after is supposedto be done.
So there's a lot in therethat's just absolutely lovely
and using a lot of the sitcomtropes that you expect like
you've got the man-hungry or thevery sex-hungry character in
Blanche, because every sitcom inthe 80s has one character who's
always on dates.
But you use that trope and yousubvert it in a lot of ways,
(08:31):
even though you lean into it ina lot of ways.
You've got the dumb characterthat you subvert in a lot of
ways.
And then you also have somereally lovely mother-daughter
character interactions betweenDorothy and Sophia every episode
.
But then you see thecharacters' own children and
their mothers come as guestsevery few episodes.
(08:53):
So it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So remind me and our listeners it's seven years worth
of shows, so you're not goingto give me everything, but like,
paint a picture of these fourwomen and the basic, like
universe, and maybe I imaginethere's like an episode or two
you're going to want to go intogreater depth for, but remind us
of what's happening in GoldenGirls.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So it apparently started off as a joke.
So someone was asked it was anolder woman comedian was asked
to talk about Miami Vice and shejoked that she misheard it as
Miami Nice and she was like, oh,finally, retirees, return
furniture.
And someone was like, oh, thatwould make a good show.
(09:37):
So it started off as a joke andI think it's NBC, I'm not so
certain.
But they're like, actually, youknow what?
Let's green light this?
Susan Harris, as I said, is theshowrunner, as I understand it,
and so the story behind it iswe have Blanche Devereaux,
(09:57):
played by Rue McClanahan.
She is a widow and it is set inMiami.
She owns the house.
Now, rue McClanahan was fromOklahoma, which surprised the
heck out of me when I learnedthat, because her southern
accent sounds so realistic to me, although it's one of those.
Where does it sound realistic?
Or was I six when I first heard?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
it.
Yeah, I think that's hard todiscern.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And so she had played , I believe, on Maud.
She had played a character whowas like the Rosen Island
character.
She had played a kind of sweetbut not that bright character
and they did not want herplaying the same type, whereas
Betty White on and I'm blankingon it, another prominent show in
(10:43):
the 70s had played a man-hungrycharacter like Blanche.
So they intentionally switchedthose actors, those two actors
sort of traded, yes, interesting, because they again they didn't
want them stuck playing to type.
So Blanche owns the house.
I cannot recall how they firstmeet each other because they are
(11:03):
not friends initially.
But Rose Nyland is also a widow.
She's from St Olaf, minnesota,and for financial reasons she
and Dorothy Zbornak, who isdivorced from Stan Zbornak who
cheated on her, all need a placeto live because they can't
afford to live by themselves.
(11:25):
So it starts off with they'regoing to be living together.
They don't really know eachother that well.
Dorothy's mother, sophia, wasliving in the Shady Pines
nursing home because she had astroke which made her lose her
filter, which is the reason forher snarkiness, which made her
(11:45):
lose her filter, which is thereason for her snarkiness, and
that is something.
And Sophia Petrillo is her name, so she's played by Estelle
Getty, who was younger.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
She was like a year or two younger than Bea Arthur
Bea Arthur, yeah, who played herdaughter.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So and again, probably because I was six when
I saw it for the first time, Ifeel like her age makeup is
impressive for a sitcom.
Yeah, seriously.
So it wasn't the originalintent, but Sophia comes to live
with them because she hatedShady Pines and she can't live
on her own.
Also, they can't afford itbecause of that recent stroke
(12:19):
that she had.
That's the kind of dark reasonbehind why she always has the
quips that she does.
So Sophia is originally fromSicily, so when she tells
stories she'll start with apicture at Sicily, 19-whatever.
And Dorothy is a retired teacher.
Rose grew up in St Olaf,minnesota, and so she tells
(12:41):
ridiculous stories about St Olaf.
And Blanche tells stories aboutI think she's supposed to be
from Atlanta but she's Southern,and so she tells stories about
her father, big Daddy.
And then Dorothy is the one whois like, has this very dry,
sarcastic wit who, like makesfun of her friends when they say
(13:01):
something like oh, are youupset about this?
And she'll be like, no, she'smad that they keep changing the
taste of Coke, or something likethat.
So the show is also remarkablytopical in a lot of ways.
So there was an episode that Iso they keep changing the taste
of Coke.
For example, there was anepisode I watched a few years
ago where someone's trying tomake an appointment for them on
(13:25):
Thursday evening and everyone'slike nope.
And he's like, oh yeah, I getit the Cosby show, which means
something different now than itdid then.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, but I mean at the time like, yeah, you had to
be home on Thursday night to seethe Cosby show.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It was appointment TV .
And then there was an episode Ijust watched this week where
the four of them are coming backfrom a Madonna concert, which I
think is kind of cool in thatthey just accepted that this is
like they're of the moment.
They're not worried aboutlooking dated because this is
when it's happening.
(13:58):
So those are the fourcharacters and that's the setup.
So with these four they arekind of archetypes in some ways.
I mean, they're not archetypes,they're more like sitcom tropes
.
In regular sitcoms you get thesex-hungry character, so that's
Blanche.
You get the sweet but dim andthat's Rose.
You get the super sarcastic andthat's Dorothy.
(14:21):
Then Sophia's kind of like thewithout-filter sarcastic, I'm
not sure.
Like she seems a little bitdifferent, like I'm thinking
friends.
You get those Like Chandler's,the super sarcastic.
You don't have someone who'sthe like the Sophia type in that
.
But what's wonderful is thefour of them really love each
other, even though they reallyannoy each other a lot yeah,
(14:47):
yeah.
So I want to talk about.
Well, first I want to talkabout how subversive it was to
have a show about four womenover 50.
, and this is a subversion thatI don't think I realized Well, I
know I didn't realize as a kid.
Like it just was, like, this isjust a show that I like to
watch because it was funny, eventhough a lot of the humor went
(15:08):
way over my head.
When I first rewatched the showas an adult I was like I cannot
believe my parents let me watchthis, because there were a lot
of sex jokes that were likedirty.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
There's a lot of sex in the show.
Yeah, I recently rewatched mostof the first season and there's
all I mean.
It's not like open door sex,but we are meant to understand
that these women are having sex,yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And very much enjoying their sex lives.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And I am very glad that our parents let us watch it
because it's not shameful.
Watch it because it's notshameful and it's not like they.
They tease blanche for how Idon't know how to say it like
for how, how much she enjoys sexwith a variety of men.
I'll put it that way because Idon't want to say promiscuous,
(16:01):
because there's a negativeconnotation to that, but it's
just she likes men, she likessex.
Yeah, sleeps around and all ofthat is a positive thing for her
.
And I remember it making me kindof vaguely uncomfortable as a
kid because I knew that's whatit was about, but I didn't
really understand a lot of thespecifics.
(16:23):
I didn't understand, but theidea that, like, she could do
that and her friends could makefun of her for it but not
anything to be ashamed of, Ithink was pretty great.
And, in fact, during the heightof COVID in 2020, one of my
favorite memes because therewere a lot of memes that went
(16:44):
around was someone wrote like ashort script of what the four
women would say about quarantineand the only line I remember
was Sophia would have said well,they consider Blanche's bedroom
an essential service.
So they need to keep that open.
(17:07):
So I need to keep that open.
So, like again, like that's,there's an element of slut
shaming to that, but it is theteasing and ultimately it is not
like the show does not shameblanche for it and like there's
two specific plot lines that Iwant to bring up that make that
(17:31):
abundantly clear.
There's one where Blanche takesa class and the professor won't
give her an A and so she triesharder and she tries harder and
she turns in I don't remember ifit's a test or a paper or
something like that and shestill doesn't get an A and he
(17:51):
basically makes it clear that ifshe sleeps with him he will
give her an A.
And this is like the showintentionally gave that
storyline to Blanche, becauseshe sleeps with men all the time
.
But she says I have my prideand my dignity and I worked hard
(18:12):
for this.
I did my work and I know that Ideserve an A for the work that
I did and I make my choices andyou can kiss my A and she leaves
.
So the show is making it clearshe is not someone who is
(18:33):
indiscriminate in what choicesshe makes in the bedroom, right,
and she's not using sex to getthings she just likes sex and so
like.
this is not something she willbe shamed for or discriminated
against for.
This is just who she is andfuck that guy.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Or actually don't.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
As the case may be.
The hell with that guy, right.
So that's one like it's anamazing, like you go get them
Blanche moment, you go get themBlanche moment.
The other really amazingstoryline is there is an episode
(19:17):
where Rose has an AIDS scareand again the show was
intentional in giving the AIDSscare to Rose and it's because
she had a blood transfusion whenshe had a gallbladder surgery
and so she's freaking out.
And she has a conversation withBlanche where Blanche says you
(19:37):
know, take it easy.
And she's like no, I'm done.
Like everyone keeps saying tome, take it easy, I don't want
to take it easy.
And she's like I'm a goodperson, this shouldn't happen to
me.
And Blanche says this is not abad person disease, this is not
punishment from God.
And Rose says yes, but like Ihaven't slept around like you.
(19:59):
And Blanche says to her likethat is not how this goes and
like they have a bit of it, likeit's tension.
And Rose says like it's just,I'm a goody two-shoes, I did the
right things and then I got, Ihad surgery.
And it's this very poignant,vulnerable, raw, angry and funny
(20:25):
conversation where Blanchemakes it clear you don't have
the right to judge me.
This is a disease that hasnothing to do with morality.
It's just health and illness.
It happens, and this is what itis, and like it doesn't reflect
(20:48):
in any way on your moralcharacter, which having that
episode come out in the 80s-yeah huge, and part of the
reason why blanche and rose talkabout it is because blanche got
tested at one point and it cameback negative and so she hadn't
(21:08):
told anyone.
And she told Rose when Rose ishaving this.
And so Rose asks her like howdid you handle it while you're
waiting for the results of yourtest?
And Blanche says to her well, Ididn't tell anyone and I was
just an enormous bitch toeveryone.
And Rose says, oh well, nowonder nobody knew, which is
(21:33):
again why Betty White?
So like.
That's what I mean about howlike the show doesn't shame
Blanche.
The show, like gives Blanchethe dignity of being like.
I like sex.
So what?
Even though Sophia willactually use the word slut
(21:53):
sometimes, which I think if itwere made today, 40 years later,
there would still be teasing,but that word would not be part
of it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, it is interesting to in my mind to
note that Blanche is a widow andthe implication is that she was
, in fact, faithful to herhusband during his lifetime.
So I think that is an importantlike sort of backstory in terms
of respectability even thoughshe's very much sleeps around
(22:24):
now, very much sleeps around nowbut I think that that piece of
it is like a respectabilityband-aid kind of thing for this
character by putting thatbackstory.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, and that's one of the things, so an interesting
.
So before we started recording,I was talking about how it even
it does talk about like it hassome representation of
disability as well.
So at one point Blanche isasked on a date by a man in a
wheelchair and she struggleswith it.
She struggles with it becauseshe's like I don't know how this
(22:57):
would work, how would we godancing, you know things like
that and she comes to theconclusion he's a man like any
other man, and I like men.
And so she accepts the date andthen finds out he's married and
she's horrified because shedoesn't cheat and doesn't help
others cheat, and she sayssomething along the lines of who
(23:17):
knew you could be a jerk in awheelchair?
Or something like that.
So, which I find it'sinteresting disability
representation.
There's a similar episode andthis one I remember from
childhood where a little personasks Rose out do you remember
this one?
Yes, and she goes through asimilar sort of thing and they
(23:38):
end up going out, they have agood time, and then he tells her
he can't date her and she'slike, no, it's fine.
And she's like we can make thiswork and blah, blah, blah, blah
, blah, and he's like, no, it'sfine.
And she's like we can make thiswork and blah, blah, blah, blah
blah.
And he's like, no, it's becauseyou're not Jewish.
And I remember that stuck withme because we're Jewish and I
just remember thinking like thatpoor guy, his dating pool has
(24:01):
got to be pretty small.
And excuse the pun, it's not anintended pun the best kind some
of this, I feel like, is whatyou get in tv prior to the
streaming age, because everyindividual show is
(24:22):
self-contained.
Now there were some longerstory arcs.
So at the end of the series,dorothy falls in love with a new
man played by Leslie Nielsen,whose character name I can't
remember, and so she marries himand moves I can't remember
where.
So there is like a story tohave a ongoing story arc like
(25:04):
today.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Right right, things are less, slightly less episodic
.
Yes, like episodes are slightlyless episodic now and more like
chapters in a longer story, inan overarching story.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, and so you get fewer like sitcom tropes and
like there's good and bad tothat.
I think that you get storiesthat are more like characters,
that are more fully fleshed,because, as much as I love the
golden girls there, there is asense of like you know you're
watching four actors on asoundstage.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
There's definitely something a little formulaic
about the dialogue but at thesame time, like there's comfort.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
It's a comfort food type of show, like I can put it
on in the background and justkind of look up to make sure I
don't miss the physical comedy.
Yeah, it's a type of story thatI think is really beneficial at
(26:13):
a certain point in your life inlearning storytelling.
I also had the thoughts when mykids were younger, when we
started our weekly family movienight because my kids can watch
whatever they want on Netflixand they watch exclusively stuff
(26:34):
made for kids a lot of likecontent that is not like
inappropriate for kids, but likereferences, sexuality.
They had no idea what was goingon.
So, for instance, we watchedAdam's Family's Values and my
kids were like I think 11 and 8,or maybe 10 and 7.
And it's not like a sex scene,but you know, clearly Fester and
(26:56):
Debbie have sex and like thekids are like what just happened
?
And I was thinking about whythey don't know.
When I would have, even as aseven-year-old, I would have
known, and it's because I wasconsuming sitcoms that were
(27:16):
written for adults as asix-year-old, whereas they can
consume stuff that isspecifically geared to them.
Now, whether that's a good thingor a bad thing I don't know
Like.
On the one hand, I think thatit means that the stuff I didn't
understand went over my headand it was fine, but I knew
(27:37):
there was something there that Iwas going to understand later,
whereas my kids were like Itruly don't understand what's
happening.
And then it feels like there'sa more of a gatekeeping between,
like adult I don't want to sayadult entertainment, but
entertainment not meant for kidsand that feels like a shame,
(28:01):
because there's a lot of reallygreat stuff that is not bad for
kids.
In fact, this, I think, wasvery good for me and good for
you to watch, even though itwasn't meant for us.
I think it benefited us assmall children to watch this and
I think that's one of thedownsides of having whatever we
(28:27):
want to watch at the click of abutton these days.
It's an interesting take.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So, before we hit record, you mentioned and you
have said about how this wasintentionally progressive, but
you, like, listed a bunch ofthings.
So you said intentionallyprogressive around AIDS, around
gay marriage, around disabilityand around racism.
Now I heard you talk about AIDSand disability, but can you
tell me about this showvis-a-vis gay marriage and
(28:55):
racism?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So I'll talk about the racism one and I haven't
gotten to the episode.
So some of this is based on somereading I've done and my hazy
memories, because obviously Ihaven't watched all seven
seasons.
So for the racism and I knowit's repeated elsewhere as well,
but the specific episode that'smentioned I believe it was in
(29:18):
Pop Culture Happy Hour on NPR isDorothy's son, who is white,
wants to marry a black woman andDorothy is very uncomfortable
with it.
(29:42):
And what I think is fascinatingand what the NPR team talked
about in this is that she ofcourse, comes to accept this and
is okay with it.
But the show makes it clearthat her discomfort is a sign of
racism.
But it doesn't mean thatDorothy is a bad person and that
racism doesn't equal bad, thatgood people can hold racist
(30:06):
ideas and discomfort.
Good people can hold racistideas and discomfort because the
idea that racism equals bad andif you're a good person you're
not racist is this kind ofbinary that we need to get rid
of, because all of us arecapable of carrying prejudices
carrying and that we need toexamine those racist beliefs and
(30:31):
work to root them out and sitwith that discomfort and work on
anti-racism and the fact that ashow is doing this in the 1980s
all taught to think aboutracism that racism is bad.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I'm a good person, therefore I can't be racist,
which the effect of that is thatwe just don't examine and won't
own it.
This is white people obviouslywon't own their racism because
they don't want to admit or evenface the possibility that they
are bad people.
So to have a mainstream show,sort of say, like even good
people have absorbed racistmessages in the 1980s, yeah,
(31:12):
that's a big deal now I mean tobe fair.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
There was an episode I saw I was, I think, after
betty white passed away.
I watched like I went back andwatched several episodes.
There's an episode wheredorothy, blanche and rose end up
being put in jail by accidentand the show used visual
shortcuts to show that the womenthey were in prison with were
(31:39):
scary, one of them being it wasa black woman, and watching that
I was just like, ooh, thatdidn't age well and scary to
Dorothy, who is the mostself-assured and like doesn't
take shit from anyone.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, no nonsense yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So and that's like I remember seeing that and going
like I would never.
I mean, of course I didn'tnotice that as a child.
Of course that's something thatwas an easy shortcut in a
22-minute sitcom in 1987 orwhenever and it got me thinking
like, well, what would you donow to show that someone's scary
(32:22):
like and like?
I didn't have an answer forthat because you know we're
using tropes and things likethat.
Anything that I could think ofis still like reducing a person
to something that is notreasonable or fair, clearly.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I don't know.
I mean like face tattoos andbloody knuckles from the fight
she was just in, maybe Anyway.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So now, as for gay marriage, I believe it's a
friend of Dorothy's who is alesbian whose longtime partner
has just passed away, and soit's showing that she's grieving
as a new widow, and so there'ssome funny commentary on that as
(33:08):
well, where Blanche is gettingconfused.
It's like oh, wasn't DannyThomas.
They're like no, that'sLebanbanese.
And then the friend is likeinterested in rose?
And then blanche is kind ofoffended that she's interested
in rose and not her.
So so there's the.
The show is making it clearthat lesbians are people.
(33:33):
Lesbians are people too.
Gay men are people too.
How progressive but it washonestly, I know I mean it
doesn't sound like much, butconsidering the fact that he's
gay, she likes girls wasconsidered a reasonable
(33:56):
punchline in 1980s sitcoms.
It is.
It was progressive and the factthat the characters had to
confront their own prejudicesabout this.
It wasn't just like, oh okay,lynch is coming.
It wasn't just like, oh okay,lent is coming.
(34:16):
It wasn't just a situationwhere everyone was okay.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
It gave the audience a way in it gave a model for
like having hard conversations,which I never thought about
Golden Girls as doing that.
But you're reminding me, andI'm thinking about the ones that
I've watched recently, likeones where, like Blanche,
(34:43):
actually sort of feeling alittle guilty, like she's being
unfaithful to her dead husband'smemory by the way that she
lives, or like I watched onewhere Dorothy's like kid is
getting married and so she hasto be in the same space with
Stan, her ex, and howuncomfortable she is and how
uncomfortable that is for her.
(35:04):
Who's this no-nonsense,always-on-top-of-stuff character
?
Want to oversell it?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
but I'm just right now in real time processing like
these characters gave us modelsfor like looking at hard stuff
in ourselves and like workingthrough it with friends, which,
like we could all use a littlebit more of I think, yeah, yeah,
there's a a fantastic earlyepisode where Rose has been
(35:37):
dating a man who she reallylikes and he wants to take her
on like a cruise overnight andshe's concerned about it because
she has never been with anyonebut her husband.
Right, I saw that one recently.
The conversation she has withher friends where they're really
encouraging her, like no, likethis is not in any way like a
(36:00):
betrayal of Charlie, which washer husband's name, and please
do whatever you're comfortablewith, but like it's OK.
And then also seeing the lovelyresponse of her beau, who is so
gentle with her.
Yeah, yeah, because he caresabout her not just sex, although
he's also very funny when he'slike, yeah, it was very hard for
(36:20):
me too, and she's like so shesays something like so, you
didn't do it.
He's like, oh no, I did, I justfelt bad about it.
So like there's a.
It gets into these reallyinteresting conversations and
very different ways of lookingat the world, because Blanche
clearly didn't have a problemand part of it is like Blanche
(36:44):
is clear that she wasn't avirgin when she married her
husband, whereas Rose was.
And like they don't shame Rosefor having lived the way that
she did, right, and they don'tshame her for being cautious and
uncomfortable and worried, theyjust encourage her.
Something that and I know I'veseen the final episode, but I
(37:04):
was reading the transcript that,as Dorothy is leaving after
she's married Leslie Nielsen,which is not his character's
name and they're all crying, andshe says something that really
struck me, which is I neverthought that I would have this.
(37:25):
Friends like you and times likethis, and when life feels cold,
I will think back on our timetogether, on our time together,
and I have this tendency to feellike I've reached the end of
certain part of my life and like, for instance, I went to a
(37:46):
friend's wedding gosh in like2004 or 5, and I was just like I
feel like I've come to the endof friend's weddings, which is
ridiculous.
I feel like I've come to theend of friends' weddings, which
is ridiculous.
But it was just like I don'tknow who else is what other
friends I know who are gettingmarried and like.
(38:07):
But some of it has to do withthe fact like, and I
consistently feel like I'velearned all I'm going to learn,
and I know that comes from thefact that, like between the ages
of I don't know, like five and12, you're learning new things
all the time and then it slowsdown so it feels like, okay,
I've come to the end of it.
And so when I learn somethingnew and realize that's become
part of the furniture of my mindas an adult, it like takes me
by, like serious surprise.
I'm like, oh, wow.
So that really struck me, thatDorothy is saying like I didn't
(38:33):
know that there was this newchapter ahead of me and now it's
behind me.
But it is so important andthat's something that I think
that's why this show is sobeloved and why it has persisted
for so long, why people love itso much, why, like we were just
at Fan Expo in Chicago and likewe see Golden Girls merchandise
(38:57):
there.
Not a huge amount, but still 40years after it initially aired,
four years after the finalactress passed away, there's
still Golden Girls merchavailable and new stuff.
And it's because we all havethat sense of like okay, I've
made my nuclear family, I havedone all of this, I've retired
(39:20):
from my job.
What else is there?
And yet there is still more.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, the Golden Girls proved that retirement is
not just waiting to die, andthere's so much learning and
growing, which is amazing andfun and love yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think we need to startwrapping up.
We're like our time is a littleoff.
So I want to make sure that youare there, any additional
(39:46):
points that we haven't made yet.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
The fact that there is like open and frank
discussions of aging.
Another important moment Sophiamakes friends with a man who
has Alzheimer's.
She doesn't know that.
She finds out later fromDorothy and the way that her
response is like you know,people think that if you get to
my age you should just be happyyou're alive.
(40:09):
But it's.
That's not the case.
Like you know, you have to havesomething to get up for in the
morning.
Even if you do, life can stillspit in your face and so, like
that unflinching look at howhard it can be.
I just kind of want to showthat.
I just want to mention that,because that's so impressive
(40:30):
that they do that, because sooften with sitcoms you only want
to focus on the good stuff,unless it's a very special
episode.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Right, Right.
I do think it's worth notingtoo, though, like watching this
show, I'm 49.
And like I think Blanche issupposed to be like 54, or maybe
Rue McClanahan was 54 when itcame out, and I'm like that is
not old people.
Like when I was a kid, thoseladies were ancient, and now I'm
(41:01):
like they're not that old.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Well, there's a point where Blanche takes a pregnancy
test and they do talk aboutmenopause and perimenopause.
So I am curious about, like Imean, our parents were in their
30s when it was when, if theythought it seemed old, yeah, and
what women in their 40s and 50sthought about it.
(41:24):
Apparently, like there's a 52year old woman who was in an
audience of where I think it wasRue McClanahan and Betty White
were on a talk show, who wasjust like thank you for helping
me recognize how gorgeous I amas a 52-year-old woman.
You know stuff like that.
So like maybe they're not thatold because we had the Golden
Girls.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
Yeah, maybe they helped us,yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So just one other thing I want to mention that I
haven't had a chance to is themothers and daughters.
We have a lot of really greatmothers and daughters,
specifically Dorothy and Sophiayou did mention that actually
Just that their relationship islovely.
They drive each other nuts butthey really love each other.
(42:10):
And then we also see how thesewomen are navigating their
relationships as mothers toadult children and as adult
daughters to elderly mothers,and we don't get to see that
often we really don't.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
There's very little pop culture or any kind of
cultural like mother anddaughter, like a good mother is
a dead mother, as the way wewere taught.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know, like all of the fairy tales, if the
mother's still alive, she's all,so yeah yeah so, but it's just,
it's from the 80s is worthrevisiting this, so is it really
really?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
is.
I found it to be as well.
All right, let me see if I canreflect back what we talked
about.
So I'm actually going to startwith the personal that you have
really strong affinity for andaffection for, betty White's
Rose Nyland, in part because shesort of taught you that being
underestimated isn't actually areflection on you, it's all
(43:14):
about the other person, not youand also that you can sometimes
use it to your not you, and alsothat you can sometimes use it
to your advantage when you comeout with that biting insight
that the other person is notexpecting because they are
underestimating you.
We also talked about the ways inwhich this show was deeply
subversive and in some waysintentionally so, like if the
subversion is about sort ofbeing intentionally progressive.
(43:36):
It was subversive to have ashow about four aging women, and
that was a subversive thing todo in the 80s.
I think it would be asubversive thing to do today.
Aids and the very clear messagethat this is a disease and
there is no morality attached toit.
It is just a disease like anyother, and sort of pushing back
(44:07):
on the idea that good peopledon't get AIDS.
It also talked about gaymarriage and reminded us that
lesbians are people too, becauseapparently we need to be
reminded of that.
They're not not, in fact,robots.
Also, you, you noted that therewas some intentional work
around racism, reminding us thatthe good bad binary does not
(44:28):
help us, not in those terms,obviously, but also some
examples where the show runnerswere guilty of that of racism,
so that's worth noting.
Let me think we also spent agood amount of time talking
about blanche and her sexualityand the ways in which, though
there was some sort of datedlanguage and slut shaming,
(44:51):
especially from snarky sophiathe show in general does not
judge blanche for the fact thatshe enjoys sex, and enjoys it
with multiple men, and, in fact,with the episode that you named
, where a professor sort oftries to get her to have sex
with him in exchange forsomething, the show shows us
(45:14):
that she has sex because shelikes sex, not sort of
transactionally, and that'simportant to her, and so that's
worth noting.
I also noted, though, that itdid give us sort of a
respectability backdrop for herto make it okay I'm putting
quotes around that that she isso sexually active with multiple
men now, by making us see thatshe was in fact, faithful to her
(45:40):
husband when he was alive, I dothink it might be asking a bit
much to have an 80s show Fromthe 80s, I agree, I agree.
I'm not mad at them for it, butI do think it's worth noting
that the way that we were ableto stomach this fairly
progressive idea in part wasthrough giving the character a
respectable background.
You named, fairly close to theend of our conversation, the
(46:03):
fact that this show gave us sortof a clear-eyed view of aging
that was vulnerable and open andhonest and also humorous, but
not just humorous in allsunshine and roses.
We talked about the fact thatthis gave us as children like
models for an alternative way togrow older, that the idea that
(46:25):
retirement is not just waitingto die, the idea that female
friendships among women can be acore home for us, which is very
subversive, and also sort ofgave us some models for like
doing hard work internally andalso sort of with our friends
(46:48):
and like having those hardconversations.
What did I forget?
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Oh, I think just there was a representation of,
like disability representation,which we wouldn't have expected
and watched now means that Ifeel like my kids are losing out
on the ability to kind of enjoystuff that's not necessarily
(47:21):
made for them but they couldhave something that would help
them, that would be beneficialto them.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Yeah, that insight of yours made me sort of think
that, like, our kids are notbeing trained as to how to
consume media that was not madeexplicitly for them, yeah, yeah
exactly that's where I landed,on that insight of yours, which
I think is an interesting onethat we should come back to.
Yeah, cool, well, this is great.
(47:48):
I loved this show so, so much,and even like I recently started
rewatching it, actually likeafter the inauguration, when I
needed to totally escape.
I escaped into the Golden Girlsand it was exactly what I
needed.
So thanks for bringing itaround.
So next time I'm going to bringyou my deep thoughts about Rain
man, so we'll see how thatholds up.
(48:09):
Well, I'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(48:31):
produce.
See you then and, of course,share the show with your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
(48:55):
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
And it also gave a kind of rounded view of aging
and a rounded view of thedifficulties of marriage, of
friendship, of finance, offinding your way in life after a
point where the happily everafter is supposed to be done.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
On today's episode, I will besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1980s-era sitcom GoldenGirls with my sister, tracy
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in.
(01:05):
So, tracy, I know you've seenthe show we watched it together
in the 80s and early 90s buttell me what's in your head
about the Golden Girls?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I love that show so much.
The first thing that comes tomind is the soundtrack or the
theme song Thank you for being afriend.
That's a great theme song, yeah, but I really I actually have
seen many episodes fairlyrecently as well, so it's not
that's a great theme song, sortof this alternative idea of what
it looks like after 50.
(01:34):
Like they're not living innuclear families, none of them
are living with men, even thoughthey're all straight and
they're living together and sortof having that core friendship
(01:55):
group be the kind of anchor forhome life as like an alternative
that now I'm like damn, thatreally appeals and I don't know
if I understood in the 80s whatan alternative that is that most
(02:16):
people don't get.
So that's the thing that comesup the most for me right now,
although Dorothy, blanche,sophia and Rose are very real
for me.
So I don't want to spend toolong on this because I really
want to get into your analysis.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout the Golden Girls today?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
So I'm going to remind you of something that I
am certain you don't remember.
I think I was about 10 and youwere about 13.
And I said to you which goldengirl is your favorite?
And you said to me Sophia ofcourse I know you don't remember
this and I know why you saidthat, because she has the most
(02:55):
biting responses Because in myhead it was.
I was like it's Rose.
Rose was my favorite.
I would not have been able toarticulate why Rose was my
favorite and it took me years tobe able to figure it out.
And part of it is has to dowith the fact that Betty White
kind of took on I think she wastypecast but took on the Rose
(03:18):
persona after that, where sheand part of it has to do with
she was this adorable older lady.
Where she and part of it has todo with she was this adorable
older lady.
She was remarkably pretty Ifyou look at pictures of her.
I mean, she was remarkablypretty as an older woman, but if
you look at pictures of her asa young woman, she was a
knockout and she had blonde hairas an older woman.
But you know you also have thisexpectation of pretty older
(03:40):
women of not having a thought intheir head, and so people would
assume.
And then Rose Nyland, you know,was kind of the ditzy like tell
these stories that made nosense from St Olaf, and so
people assumed she was dumb.
And then she would come outwith these incisive, like just
like scalpel sharp remarks andyou couldn't tell if she was
(04:05):
saying them without knowing howhow much she was cutting you
down or if she knew exactly whatshe was doing.
And that was what I liked, evenas a 10 year old yeah, it's
this.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
you're reminding me of that, like right now in my
life, like I'm realizing, like Iam always the snarky bitch in
the room, so it makes sense thatSophia was my favorite.
I mean, sometimes I'm mad atmyself for the snarky bitch in
the room, so it makes sense thatSophia was my favorite.
I mean, sometimes I'm mad atmyself, I cannot hold it in.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
I am the snarky bitch in the room and the thing is
from the jump people have lookedat me and they see like, oh,
sweet little Emily, we need toprotect sweet little Emily One
of my kids' favorite stories,which I shouldn't have told them
this.
But when my eldest was threeand my youngest was a babe in
arms, we were with friends whodid not have children.
(04:53):
The eldest was sleeping in hisstroller and the youngest could
not understand English.
And one of my friends said shitand went like, oh my goodness,
oh no, to me, not to my husband,to me, because of saying that
in front of the baby and again,this is like because of the
Betty White influence I said, oh, you don't have to worry about
(05:15):
that.
This one's first word'sprobably gonna be clown fucker,
because that is just likesubverting the expectation of
the sweet-faced.
So that is part of why I wantto talk about this, not
necessarily now, but that issomething that I have been
thinking about, and then we'vebeen talking about some heavier
(05:36):
stuff, so I wanted to get intoit.
That's why now, but Betty Whiteteaching me that it didn't
matter that I'm underestimated,because that's something that
has bothered the crap out of memy entire life.
Always has always bothered methat people look at me and go,
oh sweet little Emily, oh, wecan't say anything in front of
her, she's going to clutch herpearls has always bothered me
(05:58):
and part of what I have takenfrom Golden Girls is how Rose
Nyland, as played by Betty White, just doesn't let it affect her
.
It's just, you know, believeabout me what you want, yeah,
yeah.
So that's why there's a bunchof other stuff that is, I think,
really important about thisshow and I'm very glad I watched
(06:20):
as a tiny child, even though somuch of it went over my head.
Right, I watched as a tinychild, even though so much of it
went over my head.
This show was so subversive.
It was normalized for me as asix-year-old because it came out
as of 1985.
It was 1985 to 1992 that it wasnormal for there to be a show
about these older women over theage of 50.
(06:40):
So these three women in their50s.
And then Sophia was in her 80sbecause she's Dorothy's mother
and that seemed normal to me.
But it was incrediblysubversive.
It was very intentionallyprogressive.
Susan Harris, the showrunner,had been working on the show
Maud, that Dorothy was, excuseme, that Bea Arthur had been on
(07:02):
and she had been the one towrite the episode or was behind
the episode about Maud'sabortion, and so she had worked
on All in the Family, which hadalso been a very progressive
show.
So she was intentional in beingprogressive and these four
amazing talented actors were onthe vanguard for a lot of gay
(07:23):
rights.
So that was an intentionalthing and was something that I
was imbibing as a child and I'mvery glad that I was doing so,
even though there are somethings that look very dated now,
although there's a lot that Iwonder if they'd be allowed to
put on TV now, that if it wouldseem too progressive or too woke
(07:45):
.
Yeah, totally.
And it also gave a kind ofrounded view of aging and a
rounded view of the difficultiesof marriage, of friendship, of
finance, of finding your way inlife after a point where the
(08:07):
happily ever after is supposedto be done.
So there's a lot in therethat's just absolutely lovely
and using a lot of the sitcomtropes that you expect like
you've got the man-hungry or thevery sex-hungry character in
Blanche, because every sitcom inthe 80s has one character who's
always on dates.
But you use that trope and yousubvert it in a lot of ways,
(08:31):
even though you lean into it ina lot of ways.
You've got the dumb characterthat you subvert in a lot of
ways.
And then you also have somereally lovely mother-daughter
character interactions betweenDorothy and Sophia every episode
.
But then you see thecharacters' own children and
their mothers come as guestsevery few episodes.
(08:53):
So it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
So remind me and our listeners it's seven years worth
of shows, so you're not goingto give me everything, but like,
paint a picture of these fourwomen and the basic, like
universe, and maybe I imaginethere's like an episode or two
you're going to want to go intogreater depth for, but remind us
of what's happening in GoldenGirls.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
So it apparently started off as a joke.
So someone was asked it was anolder woman comedian was asked
to talk about Miami Vice and shejoked that she misheard it as
Miami Nice and she was like, oh,finally, retirees, return
furniture.
And someone was like, oh, thatwould make a good show.
(09:37):
So it started off as a joke andI think it's NBC, I'm not so
certain.
But they're like, actually, youknow what?
Let's green light this?
Susan Harris, as I said, is theshowrunner, as I understand it,
and so the story behind it iswe have Blanche Devereaux,
(09:57):
played by Rue McClanahan.
She is a widow and it is set inMiami.
She owns the house.
Now, rue McClanahan was fromOklahoma, which surprised the
heck out of me when I learnedthat, because her southern
accent sounds so realistic to me, although it's one of those.
Where does it sound realistic?
Or was I six when I first heard?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
it.
Yeah, I think that's hard todiscern.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
And so she had played , I believe, on Maud.
She had played a character whowas like the Rosen Island
character.
She had played a kind of sweetbut not that bright character
and they did not want herplaying the same type, whereas
Betty White on and I'm blankingon it, another prominent show in
(10:43):
the 70s had played a man-hungrycharacter like Blanche.
So they intentionally switchedthose actors, those two actors
sort of traded, yes, interesting, because they again they didn't
want them stuck playing to type.
So Blanche owns the house.
I cannot recall how they firstmeet each other because they are
(11:03):
not friends initially.
But Rose Nyland is also a widow.
She's from St Olaf, minnesota,and for financial reasons she
and Dorothy Zbornak, who isdivorced from Stan Zbornak who
cheated on her, all need a placeto live because they can't
afford to live by themselves.
(11:25):
So it starts off with they'regoing to be living together.
They don't really know eachother that well.
Dorothy's mother, sophia, wasliving in the Shady Pines
nursing home because she had astroke which made her lose her
filter, which is the reason forher snarkiness, which made her
(11:45):
lose her filter, which is thereason for her snarkiness, and
that is something.
And Sophia Petrillo is her name, so she's played by Estelle
Getty, who was younger.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
She was like a year or two younger than Bea Arthur
Bea Arthur, yeah, who played herdaughter.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
So and again, probably because I was six when
I saw it for the first time, Ifeel like her age makeup is
impressive for a sitcom.
Yeah, seriously.
So it wasn't the originalintent, but Sophia comes to live
with them because she hatedShady Pines and she can't live
on her own.
Also, they can't afford itbecause of that recent stroke
(12:19):
that she had.
That's the kind of dark reasonbehind why she always has the
quips that she does.
So Sophia is originally fromSicily, so when she tells
stories she'll start with apicture at Sicily, 19-whatever.
And Dorothy is a retired teacher.
Rose grew up in St Olaf,minnesota, and so she tells
(12:41):
ridiculous stories about St Olaf.
And Blanche tells stories aboutI think she's supposed to be
from Atlanta but she's Southern,and so she tells stories about
her father, big Daddy.
And then Dorothy is the one whois like, has this very dry,
sarcastic wit who, like makesfun of her friends when they say
(13:01):
something like oh, are youupset about this?
And she'll be like, no, she'smad that they keep changing the
taste of Coke, or something likethat.
So the show is also remarkablytopical in a lot of ways.
So there was an episode that Iso they keep changing the taste
of Coke.
For example, there was anepisode I watched a few years
ago where someone's trying tomake an appointment for them on
(13:25):
Thursday evening and everyone'slike nope.
And he's like, oh yeah, I getit the Cosby show, which means
something different now than itdid then.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yeah, but I mean at the time like, yeah, you had to
be home on Thursday night to seethe Cosby show.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
It was appointment TV .
And then there was an episode Ijust watched this week where
the four of them are coming backfrom a Madonna concert, which I
think is kind of cool in thatthey just accepted that this is
like they're of the moment.
They're not worried aboutlooking dated because this is
when it's happening.
(13:58):
So those are the fourcharacters and that's the setup.
So with these four they arekind of archetypes in some ways.
I mean, they're not archetypes,they're more like sitcom tropes
.
In regular sitcoms you get thesex-hungry character, so that's
Blanche.
You get the sweet but dim andthat's Rose.
You get the super sarcastic andthat's Dorothy.
(14:21):
Then Sophia's kind of like thewithout-filter sarcastic, I'm
not sure.
Like she seems a little bitdifferent, like I'm thinking
friends.
You get those Like Chandler's,the super sarcastic.
You don't have someone who'sthe like the Sophia type in that
.
But what's wonderful is thefour of them really love each
other, even though they reallyannoy each other a lot yeah,
(14:47):
yeah.
So I want to talk about.
Well, first I want to talkabout how subversive it was to
have a show about four womenover 50.
, and this is a subversion thatI don't think I realized Well, I
know I didn't realize as a kid.
Like it just was, like, this isjust a show that I like to
watch because it was funny, eventhough a lot of the humor went
(15:08):
way over my head.
When I first rewatched the showas an adult I was like I cannot
believe my parents let me watchthis, because there were a lot
of sex jokes that were likedirty.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
There's a lot of sex in the show.
Yeah, I recently rewatched mostof the first season and there's
all I mean.
It's not like open door sex,but we are meant to understand
that these women are having sex,yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
And very much enjoying their sex lives.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
And I am very glad that our parents let us watch it
because it's not shameful.
Watch it because it's notshameful and it's not like they.
They tease blanche for how Idon't know how to say it like
for how, how much she enjoys sexwith a variety of men.
I'll put it that way because Idon't want to say promiscuous,
(16:01):
because there's a negativeconnotation to that, but it's
just she likes men, she likessex.
Yeah, sleeps around and all ofthat is a positive thing for her
.
And I remember it making me kindof vaguely uncomfortable as a
kid because I knew that's whatit was about, but I didn't
really understand a lot of thespecifics.
(16:23):
I didn't understand, but theidea that, like, she could do
that and her friends could makefun of her for it but not
anything to be ashamed of, Ithink was pretty great.
And, in fact, during the heightof COVID in 2020, one of my
favorite memes because therewere a lot of memes that went
(16:44):
around was someone wrote like ashort script of what the four
women would say about quarantineand the only line I remember
was Sophia would have said well,they consider Blanche's bedroom
an essential service.
So they need to keep that open.
(17:07):
So I need to keep that open.
So, like again, like that's,there's an element of slut
shaming to that, but it is theteasing and ultimately it is not
like the show does not shameblanche for it and like there's
two specific plot lines that Iwant to bring up that make that
(17:31):
abundantly clear.
There's one where Blanche takesa class and the professor won't
give her an A and so she triesharder and she tries harder and
she turns in I don't remember ifit's a test or a paper or
something like that and shestill doesn't get an A and he
(17:51):
basically makes it clear that ifshe sleeps with him he will
give her an A.
And this is like the showintentionally gave that
storyline to Blanche, becauseshe sleeps with men all the time
.
But she says I have my prideand my dignity and I worked hard
(18:12):
for this.
I did my work and I know that Ideserve an A for the work that
I did and I make my choices andyou can kiss my A and she leaves
.
So the show is making it clearshe is not someone who is
(18:33):
indiscriminate in what choicesshe makes in the bedroom, right,
and she's not using sex to getthings she just likes sex and so
like.
this is not something she willbe shamed for or discriminated
against for.
This is just who she is andfuck that guy.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Or actually don't.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
As the case may be.
The hell with that guy, right.
So that's one like it's anamazing, like you go get them
Blanche moment, you go get themBlanche moment.
The other really amazingstoryline is there is an episode
(19:17):
where Rose has an AIDS scareand again the show was
intentional in giving the AIDSscare to Rose and it's because
she had a blood transfusion whenshe had a gallbladder surgery
and so she's freaking out.
And she has a conversation withBlanche where Blanche says you
(19:37):
know, take it easy.
And she's like no, I'm done.
Like everyone keeps saying tome, take it easy, I don't want
to take it easy.
And she's like I'm a goodperson, this shouldn't happen to
me.
And Blanche says this is not abad person disease, this is not
punishment from God.
And Rose says yes, but like Ihaven't slept around like you.
(19:59):
And Blanche says to her likethat is not how this goes and
like they have a bit of it, likeit's tension.
And Rose says like it's just,I'm a goody two-shoes, I did the
right things and then I got, Ihad surgery.
And it's this very poignant,vulnerable, raw, angry and funny
(20:25):
conversation where Blanchemakes it clear you don't have
the right to judge me.
This is a disease that hasnothing to do with morality.
It's just health and illness.
It happens, and this is what itis, and like it doesn't reflect
(20:48):
in any way on your moralcharacter, which having that
episode come out in the 80s-yeah huge, and part of the
reason why blanche and rose talkabout it is because blanche got
tested at one point and it cameback negative and so she hadn't
(21:08):
told anyone.
And she told Rose when Rose ishaving this.
And so Rose asks her like howdid you handle it while you're
waiting for the results of yourtest?
And Blanche says to her well, Ididn't tell anyone and I was
just an enormous bitch toeveryone.
And Rose says, oh well, nowonder nobody knew, which is
(21:33):
again why Betty White?
So like.
That's what I mean about howlike the show doesn't shame
Blanche.
The show, like gives Blanchethe dignity of being like.
I like sex.
So what?
Even though Sophia willactually use the word slut
(21:53):
sometimes, which I think if itwere made today, 40 years later,
there would still be teasing,but that word would not be part
of it.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, it is interesting to in my mind to
note that Blanche is a widow andthe implication is that she was
, in fact, faithful to herhusband during his lifetime.
So I think that is an importantlike sort of backstory in terms
of respectability even thoughshe's very much sleeps around
(22:24):
now, very much sleeps around nowbut I think that that piece of
it is like a respectabilityband-aid kind of thing for this
character by putting thatbackstory.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, and that's one of the things, so an interesting
.
So before we started recording,I was talking about how it even
it does talk about like it hassome representation of
disability as well.
So at one point Blanche isasked on a date by a man in a
wheelchair and she struggleswith it.
She struggles with it becauseshe's like I don't know how this
(22:57):
would work, how would we godancing, you know things like
that and she comes to theconclusion he's a man like any
other man, and I like men.
And so she accepts the date andthen finds out he's married and
she's horrified because shedoesn't cheat and doesn't help
others cheat, and she sayssomething along the lines of who
(23:17):
knew you could be a jerk in awheelchair?
Or something like that.
So, which I find it'sinteresting disability
representation.
There's a similar episode andthis one I remember from
childhood where a little personasks Rose out do you remember
this one?
Yes, and she goes through asimilar sort of thing and they
(23:38):
end up going out, they have agood time, and then he tells her
he can't date her and she'slike, no, it's fine.
And she's like we can make thiswork and blah, blah, blah, blah
, blah, and he's like, no, it'sfine.
And she's like we can make thiswork and blah, blah, blah, blah
blah.
And he's like, no, it's becauseyou're not Jewish.
And I remember that stuck withme because we're Jewish and I
just remember thinking like thatpoor guy, his dating pool has
(24:01):
got to be pretty small.
And excuse the pun, it's not anintended pun the best kind some
of this, I feel like, is whatyou get in tv prior to the
streaming age, because everyindividual show is
(24:22):
self-contained.
Now there were some longerstory arcs.
So at the end of the series,dorothy falls in love with a new
man played by Leslie Nielsen,whose character name I can't
remember, and so she marries himand moves I can't remember
where.
So there is like a story tohave a ongoing story arc like
(25:04):
today.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Right right, things are less, slightly less episodic
.
Yes, like episodes are slightlyless episodic now and more like
chapters in a longer story, inan overarching story.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, and so you get fewer like sitcom tropes and
like there's good and bad tothat.
I think that you get storiesthat are more like characters,
that are more fully fleshed,because, as much as I love the
golden girls there, there is asense of like you know you're
watching four actors on asoundstage.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
There's definitely something a little formulaic
about the dialogue but at thesame time, like there's comfort.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
It's a comfort food type of show, like I can put it
on in the background and justkind of look up to make sure I
don't miss the physical comedy.
Yeah, it's a type of story thatI think is really beneficial at
(26:13):
a certain point in your life inlearning storytelling.
I also had the thoughts when mykids were younger, when we
started our weekly family movienight because my kids can watch
whatever they want on Netflixand they watch exclusively stuff
(26:34):
made for kids a lot of likecontent that is not like
inappropriate for kids, but likereferences, sexuality.
They had no idea what was goingon.
So, for instance, we watchedAdam's Family's Values and my
kids were like I think 11 and 8,or maybe 10 and 7.
And it's not like a sex scene,but you know, clearly Fester and
(26:56):
Debbie have sex and like thekids are like what just happened
?
And I was thinking about whythey don't know.
When I would have, even as aseven-year-old, I would have
known, and it's because I wasconsuming sitcoms that were
(27:16):
written for adults as asix-year-old, whereas they can
consume stuff that isspecifically geared to them.
Now, whether that's a good thingor a bad thing I don't know
Like.
On the one hand, I think thatit means that the stuff I didn't
understand went over my headand it was fine, but I knew
(27:37):
there was something there that Iwas going to understand later,
whereas my kids were like Itruly don't understand what's
happening.
And then it feels like there'sa more of a gatekeeping between,
like adult I don't want to sayadult entertainment, but
entertainment not meant for kidsand that feels like a shame,
(28:01):
because there's a lot of reallygreat stuff that is not bad for
kids.
In fact, this, I think, wasvery good for me and good for
you to watch, even though itwasn't meant for us.
I think it benefited us assmall children to watch this and
I think that's one of thedownsides of having whatever we
(28:27):
want to watch at the click of abutton these days.
It's an interesting take.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So, before we hit record, you mentioned and you
have said about how this wasintentionally progressive, but
you, like, listed a bunch ofthings.
So you said intentionallyprogressive around AIDS, around
gay marriage, around disabilityand around racism.
Now I heard you talk about AIDSand disability, but can you
tell me about this showvis-a-vis gay marriage and
(28:55):
racism?
Speaker 1 (28:56):
So I'll talk about the racism one and I haven't
gotten to the episode.
So some of this is based on somereading I've done and my hazy
memories, because obviously Ihaven't watched all seven
seasons.
So for the racism and I knowit's repeated elsewhere as well,
but the specific episode that'smentioned I believe it was in
(29:18):
Pop Culture Happy Hour on NPR isDorothy's son, who is white,
wants to marry a black woman andDorothy is very uncomfortable
with it.
(29:42):
And what I think is fascinatingand what the NPR team talked
about in this is that she ofcourse, comes to accept this and
is okay with it.
But the show makes it clearthat her discomfort is a sign of
racism.
But it doesn't mean thatDorothy is a bad person and that
racism doesn't equal bad, thatgood people can hold racist
(30:06):
ideas and discomfort.
Good people can hold racistideas and discomfort because the
idea that racism equals bad andif you're a good person you're
not racist is this kind ofbinary that we need to get rid
of, because all of us arecapable of carrying prejudices
carrying and that we need toexamine those racist beliefs and
(30:31):
work to root them out and sitwith that discomfort and work on
anti-racism and the fact that ashow is doing this in the 1980s
all taught to think aboutracism that racism is bad.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I'm a good person, therefore I can't be racist,
which the effect of that is thatwe just don't examine and won't
own it.
This is white people obviouslywon't own their racism because
they don't want to admit or evenface the possibility that they
are bad people.
So to have a mainstream show,sort of say, like even good
people have absorbed racistmessages in the 1980s, yeah,
(31:12):
that's a big deal now I mean tobe fair.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
There was an episode I saw I was, I think, after
betty white passed away.
I watched like I went back andwatched several episodes.
There's an episode wheredorothy, blanche and rose end up
being put in jail by accidentand the show used visual
shortcuts to show that the womenthey were in prison with were
(31:39):
scary, one of them being it wasa black woman, and watching that
I was just like, ooh, thatdidn't age well and scary to
Dorothy, who is the mostself-assured and like doesn't
take shit from anyone.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Yeah, no nonsense yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
So and that's like I remember seeing that and going
like I would never.
I mean, of course I didn'tnotice that as a child.
Of course that's something thatwas an easy shortcut in a
22-minute sitcom in 1987 orwhenever and it got me thinking
like, well, what would you donow to show that someone's scary
(32:22):
like and like?
I didn't have an answer forthat because you know we're
using tropes and things likethat.
Anything that I could think ofis still like reducing a person
to something that is notreasonable or fair, clearly.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
I don't know.
I mean like face tattoos andbloody knuckles from the fight
she was just in, maybe Anyway.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
So now, as for gay marriage, I believe it's a
friend of Dorothy's who is alesbian whose longtime partner
has just passed away, and soit's showing that she's grieving
as a new widow, and so there'ssome funny commentary on that as
(33:08):
well, where Blanche is gettingconfused.
It's like oh, wasn't DannyThomas.
They're like no, that'sLebanbanese.
And then the friend is likeinterested in rose?
And then blanche is kind ofoffended that she's interested
in rose and not her.
So so there's the.
The show is making it clearthat lesbians are people.
(33:33):
Lesbians are people too.
Gay men are people too.
How progressive but it washonestly, I know I mean it
doesn't sound like much, butconsidering the fact that he's
gay, she likes girls wasconsidered a reasonable
(33:56):
punchline in 1980s sitcoms.
It is.
It was progressive and the factthat the characters had to
confront their own prejudicesabout this.
It wasn't just like, oh okay,lynch is coming.
It wasn't just like, oh okay,lent is coming.
(34:16):
It wasn't just a situationwhere everyone was okay.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
It gave the audience a way in it gave a model for
like having hard conversations,which I never thought about
Golden Girls as doing that.
But you're reminding me, andI'm thinking about the ones that
I've watched recently, likeones where, like Blanche,
(34:43):
actually sort of feeling alittle guilty, like she's being
unfaithful to her dead husband'smemory by the way that she
lives, or like I watched onewhere Dorothy's like kid is
getting married and so she hasto be in the same space with
Stan, her ex, and howuncomfortable she is and how
uncomfortable that is for her.
(35:04):
Who's this no-nonsense,always-on-top-of-stuff character
?
Want to oversell it?
Speaker 1 (35:13):
but I'm just right now in real time processing like
these characters gave us modelsfor like looking at hard stuff
in ourselves and like workingthrough it with friends, which,
like we could all use a littlebit more of I think, yeah, yeah,
there's a a fantastic earlyepisode where Rose has been
(35:37):
dating a man who she reallylikes and he wants to take her
on like a cruise overnight andshe's concerned about it because
she has never been with anyonebut her husband.
Right, I saw that one recently.
The conversation she has withher friends where they're really
encouraging her, like no, likethis is not in any way like a
(36:00):
betrayal of Charlie, which washer husband's name, and please
do whatever you're comfortablewith, but like it's OK.
And then also seeing the lovelyresponse of her beau, who is so
gentle with her.
Yeah, yeah, because he caresabout her not just sex, although
he's also very funny when he'slike, yeah, it was very hard for
(36:20):
me too, and she's like so shesays something like so, you
didn't do it.
He's like, oh no, I did, I justfelt bad about it.
So like there's a.
It gets into these reallyinteresting conversations and
very different ways of lookingat the world, because Blanche
clearly didn't have a problemand part of it is like Blanche
(36:44):
is clear that she wasn't avirgin when she married her
husband, whereas Rose was.
And like they don't shame Rosefor having lived the way that
she did, right, and they don'tshame her for being cautious and
uncomfortable and worried, theyjust encourage her.
Something that and I know I'veseen the final episode, but I
(37:04):
was reading the transcript that,as Dorothy is leaving after
she's married Leslie Nielsen,which is not his character's
name and they're all crying, andshe says something that really
struck me, which is I neverthought that I would have this.
(37:25):
Friends like you and times likethis, and when life feels cold,
I will think back on our timetogether, on our time together,
and I have this tendency to feellike I've reached the end of
certain part of my life and like, for instance, I went to a
(37:46):
friend's wedding gosh in like2004 or 5, and I was just like I
feel like I've come to the endof friend's weddings, which is
ridiculous.
I feel like I've come to theend of friends' weddings, which
is ridiculous.
But it was just like I don'tknow who else is what other
friends I know who are gettingmarried and like.
(38:07):
But some of it has to do withthe fact like, and I
consistently feel like I'velearned all I'm going to learn,
and I know that comes from thefact that, like between the ages
of I don't know, like five and12, you're learning new things
all the time and then it slowsdown so it feels like, okay,
I've come to the end of it.
And so when I learn somethingnew and realize that's become
part of the furniture of my mindas an adult, it like takes me
by, like serious surprise.
I'm like, oh, wow.
So that really struck me, thatDorothy is saying like I didn't
(38:33):
know that there was this newchapter ahead of me and now it's
behind me.
But it is so important andthat's something that I think
that's why this show is sobeloved and why it has persisted
for so long, why people love itso much, why, like we were just
at Fan Expo in Chicago and likewe see Golden Girls merchandise
(38:57):
there.
Not a huge amount, but still 40years after it initially aired,
four years after the finalactress passed away, there's
still Golden Girls merchavailable and new stuff.
And it's because we all havethat sense of like okay, I've
made my nuclear family, I havedone all of this, I've retired
(39:20):
from my job.
What else is there?
And yet there is still more.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, the Golden Girls proved that retirement is
not just waiting to die, andthere's so much learning and
growing, which is amazing andfun and love yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think we need to startwrapping up.
We're like our time is a littleoff.
So I want to make sure that youare there, any additional
(39:46):
points that we haven't made yet.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
The fact that there is like open and frank
discussions of aging.
Another important moment Sophiamakes friends with a man who
has Alzheimer's.
She doesn't know that.
She finds out later fromDorothy and the way that her
response is like you know,people think that if you get to
my age you should just be happyyou're alive.
(40:09):
But it's.
That's not the case.
Like you know, you have to havesomething to get up for in the
morning.
Even if you do, life can stillspit in your face and so, like
that unflinching look at howhard it can be.
I just kind of want to showthat.
I just want to mention that,because that's so impressive
(40:30):
that they do that, because sooften with sitcoms you only want
to focus on the good stuff,unless it's a very special
episode.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Right, Right.
I do think it's worth notingtoo, though, like watching this
show, I'm 49.
And like I think Blanche issupposed to be like 54, or maybe
Rue McClanahan was 54 when itcame out, and I'm like that is
not old people.
Like when I was a kid, thoseladies were ancient, and now I'm
(41:01):
like they're not that old.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Well, there's a point where Blanche takes a pregnancy
test and they do talk aboutmenopause and perimenopause.
So I am curious about, like Imean, our parents were in their
30s when it was when, if theythought it seemed old, yeah, and
what women in their 40s and 50sthought about it.
(41:24):
Apparently, like there's a 52year old woman who was in an
audience of where I think it wasRue McClanahan and Betty White
were on a talk show, who wasjust like thank you for helping
me recognize how gorgeous I amas a 52-year-old woman.
You know stuff like that.
So like maybe they're not thatold because we had the Golden
Girls.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, that's a really good point.
That's a really good point.
Yeah, maybe they helped us,yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
So just one other thing I want to mention that I
haven't had a chance to is themothers and daughters.
We have a lot of really greatmothers and daughters,
specifically Dorothy and Sophiayou did mention that actually
Just that their relationship islovely.
They drive each other nuts butthey really love each other.
(42:10):
And then we also see how thesewomen are navigating their
relationships as mothers toadult children and as adult
daughters to elderly mothers,and we don't get to see that
often we really don't.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
There's very little pop culture or any kind of
cultural like mother anddaughter, like a good mother is
a dead mother, as the way wewere taught.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
You know, like all of the fairy tales, if the
mother's still alive, she's all,so yeah yeah so, but it's just,
it's from the 80s is worthrevisiting this, so is it really
really?
Speaker 2 (42:50):
is.
I found it to be as well.
All right, let me see if I canreflect back what we talked
about.
So I'm actually going to startwith the personal that you have
really strong affinity for andaffection for, betty White's
Rose Nyland, in part because shesort of taught you that being
underestimated isn't actually areflection on you, it's all
(43:14):
about the other person, not youand also that you can sometimes
use it to your not you, and alsothat you can sometimes use it
to your advantage when you comeout with that biting insight
that the other person is notexpecting because they are
underestimating you.
We also talked about the ways inwhich this show was deeply
subversive and in some waysintentionally so, like if the
subversion is about sort ofbeing intentionally progressive.
(43:36):
It was subversive to have ashow about four aging women, and
that was a subversive thing todo in the 80s.
I think it would be asubversive thing to do today.
Aids and the very clear messagethat this is a disease and
there is no morality attached toit.
It is just a disease like anyother, and sort of pushing back
(44:07):
on the idea that good peopledon't get AIDS.
It also talked about gaymarriage and reminded us that
lesbians are people too, becauseapparently we need to be
reminded of that.
They're not not, in fact,robots.
Also, you, you noted that therewas some intentional work
around racism, reminding us thatthe good bad binary does not
(44:28):
help us, not in those terms,obviously, but also some
examples where the show runnerswere guilty of that of racism,
so that's worth noting.
Let me think we also spent agood amount of time talking
about blanche and her sexualityand the ways in which, though
there was some sort of datedlanguage and slut shaming,
(44:51):
especially from snarky sophiathe show in general does not
judge blanche for the fact thatshe enjoys sex, and enjoys it
with multiple men, and, in fact,with the episode that you named
, where a professor sort oftries to get her to have sex
with him in exchange forsomething, the show shows us
(45:14):
that she has sex because shelikes sex, not sort of
transactionally, and that'simportant to her, and so that's
worth noting.
I also noted, though, that itdid give us sort of a
respectability backdrop for herto make it okay I'm putting
quotes around that that she isso sexually active with multiple
men now, by making us see thatshe was in fact, faithful to her
(45:40):
husband when he was alive, I dothink it might be asking a bit
much to have an 80s show Fromthe 80s, I agree, I agree.
I'm not mad at them for it, butI do think it's worth noting
that the way that we were ableto stomach this fairly
progressive idea in part wasthrough giving the character a
respectable background.
You named, fairly close to theend of our conversation, the
(46:03):
fact that this show gave us sortof a clear-eyed view of aging
that was vulnerable and open andhonest and also humorous, but
not just humorous in allsunshine and roses.
We talked about the fact thatthis gave us as children like
models for an alternative way togrow older, that the idea that
(46:25):
retirement is not just waitingto die, the idea that female
friendships among women can be acore home for us, which is very
subversive, and also sort ofgave us some models for like
doing hard work internally andalso sort of with our friends
(46:48):
and like having those hardconversations.
What did I forget?
Speaker 1 (46:51):
Oh, I think just there was a representation of,
like disability representation,which we wouldn't have expected
and watched now means that Ifeel like my kids are losing out
on the ability to kind of enjoystuff that's not necessarily
(47:21):
made for them but they couldhave something that would help
them, that would be beneficialto them.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Yeah, that insight of yours made me sort of think
that, like, our kids are notbeing trained as to how to
consume media that was not madeexplicitly for them, yeah, yeah
exactly that's where I landed,on that insight of yours, which
I think is an interesting onethat we should come back to.
Yeah, cool, well, this is great.
(47:48):
I loved this show so, so much,and even like I recently started
rewatching it, actually likeafter the inauguration, when I
needed to totally escape.
I escaped into the Golden Girlsand it was exactly what I
needed.
So thanks for bringing itaround.
So next time I'm going to bringyou my deep thoughts about Rain
man, so we'll see how thatholds up.
(48:09):
Well, I'll see you then.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
(48:31):
produce.
See you then and, of course,share the show with your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
(48:55):
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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