Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
Let your heart guide you. It whispers, so listen closely.
This week, Tracie brings her deep thoughts about the 1988 Don Bluth animated film The Land Before Time. Although both Guy girls were a little too old to appreciate this staple of Millennial nostalgia when it originally came out, Tracie loved the hand-drawn animation, the way Bluth's storytelling offered a kid-friendly meditation on grief, and the pop culture trope of found family when she watched the film repeatedly while regularly babysitting dino-obsessed kiddos. There's still a lot to love in this gorgeous animation, even if you discount the technical skill of the artists. The story offers kids a framework for understanding loss and death and the long-term mental health challenges that can remain after experiencing grief. Considering how often children's movies don't allow their protagonists to feel sad for more than a scene, this is truly remarkable.
But as much as the animation doesn't talk down to its audience in regards to Littlefoot's grief over his mother, it also underestimates kids' ability to understand what's happening on the screen and their ability to handle anything other than a MegaHappy ending.
(Also: those dinosaurs lived millions of years apart. Tracie and Emily feel kind of hypocritical that they don't care.)
Throw on your headphones and join us for a scientifically inaccurate but artistically beautiful prehistoric adventure!
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
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We are the sister podcasters Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our extended family as the Guy Girls.
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love 80s and 90s movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, analyzing film tropes with a side of feminism, and examining the pop culture of our Gen X childhood for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, religious allegory, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
Because the reality is that you don't move on.
You don't get over you it.
You just get on with your lifeeventually.
You do eventually get out of thefootprint and start walking
toward the Great Valley, butlike you're still thinking about
the deceased with you.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
(01:08):
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(01:29):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 animated film from DonBluth, Land Before Time, with my
sister, Emily Guy Birkin, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, I don't think this was oneof ours because we were kind of
too old for it when it came out.
I watched it many times when Iwas babysitting in grad school,
(01:52):
which was my primary job, asidefrom being a student, while I
was in graduate school.
But what's in your head aboutLand Before Time?
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
So I do remember it.
I remember the main character'sname was Littlefoot.
I remember liking that as aname.
That's right.
And I remember there was a leafthat his mother had given him
and that he carried it around.
And I remember there was a pointat which, because he was a an
herbivore, where it was like,eat the leaf! Because he was
(02:21):
hungry.
And I remember the animationbeing beautiful.
And that's all I got.
That's about it.
Recently, someone said to me,and I wish I could remember the
context where the conversationwas, because I was talking about
how I look at a lot of film andmedia that I consumed and
(02:45):
recognizing like how it wasneurodivergent-friendly without
realizing it.
And someone said, Oh, yeah, Ifeel that way about The Land
Before Time now that you mentionit, because there's a character
who might be coded as aneurodivergent.
And I thought that was a reallyinteresting comment, but my
memory of this film was sospotty that I had no clue as to
(03:09):
who that character would be.
So that I found reallyinteresting.
But that's it.
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about thisfilm today?
SPEAKER_03 (03:20):
So, listeners, we have a list of like a hundred
plus pieces of media that arelike on the possible list.
And like every six to eightweeks, we sit down and we figure
out what we're gonna do for thenext set of episodes.
And for whatever reason, thisone jumped out right now.
I don't actually have a goodreason for why I'm doing it
right now.
In fact, as I was prepping, Iwas like, I should have done the
(03:41):
American Tale if I was gonna doDon Blut.
I should have done American Talefirst, which I'll come back to
American Tale.
But so I don't know why rightnow, except that for whatever
reason it jumped out at me whenwe were looking at the list of
and thinking about what to do.
As I mentioned, I saw this moviea lot as a young adult, 25-ish,
when I was babysitting for somekids.
(04:03):
I was like a regular babysitterin graduate school for kids who
are now grown-ass adults, whichfreaks me out a little bit.
But this was one, this was oneof their favorites.
And so we watched it a lot.
And I just had this in mymemory, like hand-drawn
animation, like in a moment inour culture when animation was
kind of at a low point, likestarting to come back in the
late 80s and early 90s, butreally not what it is today for
(04:26):
sure.
And just remember I justremember really enjoying it and
feeling like it was a morenuanced and interesting movie.
And so that's why I put it onthe list.
I'm not sure it lived up to mymemory in rewatch.
But let me give you a couple ofpostcards from The Destination.
It's a very short film, it'sonly 66 minutes of running time.
Really?
So it almost felt like a TVshow.
(04:46):
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's only 66 minutes.
But some of the things that Ithink are interesting that I
want to bring forward are thismovie, especially for a
children's movie, does a verynuanced job of portraying grief.
And I think it gives some reallyuseful lessons to the children
watching about grief and aboutthe person who is lost and how
(05:07):
they're still with you in somesense through your memory and
through your love, which I thinkis really nice.
There's some well-meaning workto try and like combat
discrimination that doesn'tquite live up to, I think, what
the movie makers were hopingfor.
There's also, I have that sortof nuanced picture of grief.
(05:27):
And I want to contrast that withthe lesson of a very happily
ever after at the end of thismovie, which feels totally
disingenuous about a movie aboutdinosaurs.
Just like that fundamentally.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
There is something a little odd.
Yeah.
I feel that way sometimesreading historical like the
happily ever after.
I'm like, but they're all deadnow.
Set in 1850.
They're all dead now.
SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I want to talk a little bitabout storytelling because this
is a found family narrative.
And so we get tropes, like eachof the members of the found
family of this found tribe kindof has a trope.
And maybe we can get to youracquaintance who or friend who
said this was there was maybe aneurodivergent coded one.
(06:19):
And it does and doesn't hold upwith these five dinosaurs.
And so I want to talk about theways that it does and doesn't.
And also the storytelling of it.
There are ways in which it feltlike the movie makers kind of
underestimated their viewers.
So that's some postcards fromthe destination.
Let me catch you up on the plotof this thing, which for once I
(06:42):
think maybe I can be shorterthan the actual runtime of the
movie.
SPEAKER_02 (06:45):
It might be equivalent this time.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
Maybe.
I'll do my best.
I sort of think somebody waslike, hey, let's make Bambi, but
with dinosaurs.
And that was like the pitchmeeting.
Cause so we meet Littlefoot, asyou remember, who is the
dinosaur that's not aBronosaurus because that doesn't
exist in the world.
Actually, he's an apartosaurus.
(07:09):
Now exist again.
Okay, I can't keep up.
So anyway, in the movie, theycall themselves and everyone
else calls them long necks.
So fine, he's a long neck.
And the narrator lets us knowthat like the only people, the
only long necks left in theirtribe is this newly hatched
Littlefoot and his mom and hisgrandma and grandpa.
(07:32):
So how mom had him remains aquestion.
But I don't know how long longnecks just ate their eggs.
So maybe dad died.
I don't know.
unknown (07:42):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (07:43):
Anyway, Littlefoot hatches and he's all the hopes
and dreams of his tiny littletribe.
And we learn that they aretrying to make their way to the
Great Valley because the weatheris changing and shit is
changing, and like all of theirthe food that they eat is dying.
In voiceover, we learn thatthere are two kinds of
(08:06):
dinosaurs.
There are plant eaters and thereare meat eaters.
So Littlefoot, obviously a planteater, and we meet several other
plant eaters.
Here's where the sort ofwell-meaning thing about
discrimination happens.
Littlefoot, while they're likethey're walking and they walk as
far as they possibly can everysingle day.
And at some point, theyLittlefoot ends up kind of
(08:26):
playing with a baby Triceratopscalled Sarah.
C E R A.
For all the time I watched this,I thought it was S-A-R-A-H.
So, but it's not.
It's C-E-R-A because she's aTriceratops.
And they start playing andthey're having fun, but then the
daddy Triceratops like standsbetween like his giant foot
(08:47):
between the two baby dinosaursand says, three horns don't play
with long necks.
Okay, fine.
So terrible things happen.
It's like a big earthquake andlike the lane, like huge new
mountains and chasms and stuff.
And Littlefoot is separated fromhis grandparents.
(09:08):
Oh, and meanwhile, I totallyskipped.
There was a Sharptooth, a T-Rex,who heard Sarah and Littlefoot
playing.
They started playing againdespite the injunction from the
daddy's Ryceratops.
And the T-Rex tries to eat them.
Mama Longneck intervenes andsaves them, but she ends up
(09:30):
getting bitten several times.
And then after she's beenbitten, this huge earthquake
with like chasms opening up, shetakes a big fall.
Littlefoot is separated from hisgrandparents.
Sarah is separated from herparents.
Littlefoot goes, finds his mom.
She's like laying down.
He's you gotta get up.
You gotta get up.
She says, I don't know if I can.
She gets up, she falls again.
She dies.
(09:54):
Her last words to him are,remember how to get to the Great
Valley.
And they're like specificlandmarks.
You have to go past the rockthat looks like a long neck, go
past the mountains that breathefire, and you'll find the Great
Valley.
Great Valley is a mythic placewhere there's all the food you
can eat, and there's water, andthere's everything.
It's just Valhalla.
(10:16):
And that's where they werewalking towards.
She's never been there.
Mama has never been there.
She's told us that, but shebelieves that it's there.
Because sometimes you can, somethings you can see with your
heart, some things you see withyour eyes, and some things you
see with your heart.
And she sees that the GreatValley is in fact there with her
heart.
So those are the last words toLittlefoot.
This baby is devastated.
(10:38):
And this is where I say, like, Ithink the grief is really well
done.
Like he curls up in herfootprint and is like too upset
to do anything.
Eventually, what gets him goingagain is he remembers her
instruction.
And so he keeps going.
He gets up and starts walking.
Along the way, he collects alittle band of baby dinosaurs
(11:01):
who have all been separated.
Before mom died, while they werewalking, they said there were
going to be plenty of green foodto eat in the Great Valley.
And as they're walking, they seea tree and there's one leaf left
on it.
And she says, Oh, it's a treestar.
That's what she calls the leaf,because it's got five points or
whatever.
It's like an oak as opposed toan almond-shaped one.
(11:22):
And she says, There's so many ofthese in the Great Valley that
we'll be able to feast on them.
But she pulls it down and givesit to him.
So he's been carrying it thewhole way.
And he had sort of lost it withthe death and the everything,
but kind of that's part of alsothe like mom is still with him.
Like he hears her voice, andthen he is reunited with the
(11:44):
tree star, which ends up gettingrolled and he's carrying it.
Anyway, so along the way, on theway to the Great Valley, trying
to find the way, he's supposedto follow the great circle,
which is the sun, past the rockand the mountains and the
whatever.
So he picks up a little band ofother dinosaurs.
There's first he meets Ducky,who is a little amphibious
(12:06):
dinosaur, who she's the one,they're the one.
I actually don't know whatgender they're supposed to be.
They're the one who the kids Ibabysat for love the most
because they respond, theyrespond to things.
They always say, like, yep, yep,yep.
I remember that.
And it's like super cute.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's Ducky who's very likecheerful.
(12:27):
And then we see sadness inmoments where no one's paying
attention from Ducky.
But they say they're the oneswho they say, yep, yep, yep.
And nope, nope, nope.
And they're it's just they'rejust really adorable.
Then they meet Petrie, who is apterodon who's terrified of
flying, and has a very oddverbal affect as well.
Like he Petrie falls out of atree and he's like, I fly.
(12:51):
And they're like, No, you fell.
You falled.
And he has this weird, sort oflike almost accented English.
Eventually, Ducky finds an eggthat's snoring and helps it
hatch.
And that this is Spike.
He's a stegosaurus.
Ducky names him because he's aspike tail.
That's the kind of a dinosaur heis.
(13:12):
They name him Spike.
And he does not speak like atall.
And it's possible he's the onethat your friend thinks is
neurodivergent coded.
Maybe.
Like, I think in 1988, he wasjust what we would have called
slow back then.
He almost reads, like, you knowhow Goofy's a dog and Pluto's a
(13:35):
dog, but like Goofy's a humandog and Pluto's a dog dog.
Okay.
It's kind of like that, wherethe under dinosaurs are like
people dinosaurs.
Okay.
Spike's a dinosaur dinosaur.
Like he's more like an animal.
That's the way it sort of reads.
And then Sarah.
So those are the dinosaurs, andthey're making their way, and
there's fights between them, andthey have conflict, and they're
(13:56):
trying to find food, and theylike fall down hills.
And along the way, there aremoments of what I want to call
like magic or like mystical,like I would almost call them
like divine encounters thatLittlefoot has that are not with
God, but with his dead mom,where she leads him in one way
or another.
(14:17):
But we see sort of like lightshining down from above, and
like the music is oh, and itlike we know that something
magical is happening.
It's always the mom.
It happens several timesthroughout.
It's like Inigo Montoya, GuideMy Sword Father.
Yeah.
Yes.
Kind of, kind of like that.
Except rather than Littlefootsaying, Mom, help, there's a
(14:38):
more of a proactiveness from thespirit.
Okay.
Meanwhile, the Sharptooth, whothey thought had died, actually
didn't, and is like chasingthem.
They do manage to kill him, andthey think the Petri died while
they were killing theSharptooth, but he didn't.
He survived.
And like they all love eachother and they help each other,
and it's beautiful.
(14:59):
And at the last minute, they'reabout all like Littlefoot's kind
of ready to give up.
And then he sees like a cloudthat's sort of shaped like a
long neck, and it's like mom orwhatever.
And he like follows it.
It turns into like wispy smoke,and he follows it like around
through some caverns and aroundthe bend, and there's the Great
Valley.
And in the Great Valley are theother dinosaurs, like, in
(15:20):
addition to his own grandma andgrandpa, Littlefoot's grandma
and grandpa, are the otherdinosaurs' families, like all of
them, like siblings and parents,and all of them are there
waiting in this amazing GreatValley, and they live happily
ever after.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Until the meteor.
SPEAKER_03 (15:36):
I guess.
Like the thing is, like at thebeginning of the movie, you sort
of think the meteor has alreadyhappened because shit's real bad
and there's no food.
And they're like in this greatmigration to try and find new
food.
So, anyway, I mean that's whathappened.
There's a lot more.
There are actual like episodesthat I could relay, but like I
don't feel like I need to.
(15:56):
Sure.
I mean, so anyway, that's theplot.
Look, it's only 16 minutes worthof recording, and I managed to
get through a 66-minute movie.
I'm proud of myself.
Don't admit it to myaccomplishment.
It's okay, it's all you.
It's not Don Blues, it's allyou.
Uh-uh.
I'm just so good at summarizing.
(16:19):
Anyway, okay, so let me startwith the grief piece because
that is the thing that I thinkis the core strength of this
movie as storytelling.
I think that we oftenunderestimate children.
Like part of me wants to likehave a whole conversation about
what is children's media, whatis appropriate for children's
(16:43):
media.
I think offline, I don't know ifwe've talked about it on the
show.
You and I have talked about theways in which like we consumed
media that was made for adultsthat sort of taught us how to
consume stories in ways that ourkids didn't.
And now we're needing to likehelp them figure out.
I don't think we've talked aboutthat on the show, but this
(17:05):
movie, I think, is from an erawhere, in some ways, we actually
expected more of our kids.
And we like recognize that likethey live through shitty stuff
too.
And so as a guide for how todeal with, maybe not how to deal
with that's the wrong phrase,but as a as a model for like how
(17:26):
grief shows up, as a normalizingvehicle for how grief shows up.
I think this movie is reallybeautiful in many ways.
The way that the that Littlefootlike is like curls up in her
footprint as a way to try andstay near her.
It's just really lovely.
There's also a moment where heexpresses a great deal of anger
(17:46):
at her, like right after she'sdied.
He's like, it's her fault.
She should have known better.
It was a sharp tooth.
And like a little dinosaur who'scalled Ruder, like an adult, it
was like, oh, honey, it's nother fault.
Once he realizes what hashappened, like it's just the
circle of life.
It's how it happens.
And it's, he doesn't say itsucks, but he says it's hard,
but it's not her fault.
(18:07):
As mom was dying, she said, I'llalways be with you, even if you
can't see me.
And that bears out.
And so I think that in thatsense, as like a model thinking
about the deceased, this feelsreally like powerful and useful
for children.
Like the kids, those kids Ibabysat who are now grown-ass
adults.
(18:27):
Like, I'm actually glad thatthey have that in their the
furniture of their minds fordealing with grief.
That like Littlefoot's mother isshe never leaves.
She dies in the first fewminutes of the movie, but she
never leaves.
She never leaves him.
And she continues to be there tocomfort and guide as memory,
(18:50):
spirit, like however you wantto, whatever metaphor you want
to use for that, she's there.
And I think that feels likesomething I'm grateful for that
the kids who were consuming thisnow have in the furniture of
their minds.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
Well, I'm just thinking about how grown-ups so
often want to shield childrenfrom hard things.
And so we've mentioned ourfather passed away in 2013.
My eldest was two when our daddied.
And then two years later, welost, we had three pets, and we
lost two of them within twomonths of each other.
(19:24):
We had our greyhound Obi and ourcat Charlie.
Obi, we had to put down inAugust, and Charlie we had to
put down in, I think, November.
And so at that point, my eldestwas four then five.
And because he remembered hisgrandfather and then the two
pets, for the the year thatfollowed, he kept saying, Well,
(19:46):
if everyone dies and I'm theonly one left.
Because he was thinking aboutthe our remaining pet, our cat,
the dude, who's like, you know,our two pets died, and the dude
was who was left.
And that is something thathappens in children's lives.
They experience loss at a timewhen they don't have the
(20:08):
experience or the emotionalbandwidth to, or, or just the
language to articulate what itis they're worried about.
Because for him, it was the ideaof being the only one left, was
what scared him.
And so, like this film, I think,could have been very helpful to
him because for him, it was likethe he really was focused on
(20:31):
there was only one left.
And that's where Littlefoot is.
But he's not the only one left.
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
Right.
Not only does he have his momthrough the mechanism of memory
and spirit, like he also makes alot of friends who become his
found family.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think it's also the case thatI think in children's media, in
terms of that shielding, there'slike, I mean, dead parents are
all over children's media.
But usually it's sort of like wethen distract, it's like one
(21:03):
moment of sad, and then we moveon.
That's another thing that I feellike this movie got right.
Because the reality is that youdon't move on.
You don't get over you it, youjust get on with your life
eventually.
You do eventually get out of thefootprint and start walking
toward the Great Valley, butlike you're still thinking about
(21:24):
the deceased.
You carry it with you.
Yeah.
You know, like the grief,exactly.
And I think a lot of media forchildren that does include death
doesn't recognize that.
And so that felt, I don't know.
I'm really like pleased and gladto be able to like share that
with you.
The other thing that I think themovie makers were trying to do
intentionally, because that thatfeels intentional to me.
(21:45):
That way of addressing grieffeels really intentional to me.
The other thing that I thinkthey did intentionally that I
don't think they did assuccessfully is this attempt to
kind of like counterdiscrimination.
Like we have these grown-upssaying we keep to our own kind,
and then the kids make friendsanyway.
And then in the Great Valley, welearn at the very end that like
(22:06):
they all worked together andthey were a community and their
kids, kids, and for generationsto come, they were no, they
continue to not have thoserules.
Right.
The thing that feels off is thatrace is made up, but dinosaur
species difference is not.
(22:27):
And so that feels like a littleoff.
And also, even within theuniverse of this film, there's
still two types of dinosaursplant eaters and meat eaters.
There's the good kind ofdinosaurs who we can be friends
with, they're the plant eaters,but then there's the bad kind
who we have to try and kill.
So, like, even within theuniverse of the movie, okay,
(22:53):
let's put aside the fact thatrace is made up and the
different species are real.
Like, you still didn't quite getthere because you made this the
dinosaurs into like theterrifying sharp tooth.
Who knows if he even has aconsciousness?
He never speaks, he only growlsand snarls and like bites
people.
And then we have the planteaters who, aside from Spike,
(23:16):
are completelyanthropomorphized.
And it's B.
Are all of the voice actorswhite?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I didn't look into that.
I mean, just from the way thatthey sound, maybe I don't know.
There's no one whose voice islike coded as like American
(23:39):
black.
But each of them has these likeI flies.
Yeah, so Petrie has the I flies.
Sounds like English with anaccent.
Ducky has the yep, yep, yep, andnope, nope, nope, and whatever.
(23:59):
Littlefoot is just a kid,probably a white kid.
Sarah is tough and proud andlike always right.
She's kind of a jerk, actually.
But I don't know.
I didn't do that research.
But anyway, I I appreciate theeffort, I guess, is what I'm
(24:21):
gonna say.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
It's the well-meaning white person
attempt.
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's and for 1988, I guess it
was an important step in theright direction, but it did not
hold up as successfully as thework around grief.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
I was teaching.
I taught to kill a mockingbirdevery year, and this was part of
the curriculum.
It was a story that we hadpassed out beforehand that it
was about like the prejudiceagainst the green-haired people,
and you know, how I don't wantmy kids learning next to the
green-haired kids, and like howit just passes on.
(25:01):
And I taught it every yearbecause it was part of the
curriculum, but it was the samekind of well-meaning white
people wrote it, and it was thesame kind of like this doesn't
actually say or do or meananything.
So it reminds me of that kind ofthing, and I bet it was written
about the same time, even thoughI was teaching in 2006 through
(25:26):
10.
SPEAKER_03 (25:26):
Yeah, probably.
Yeah, yeah.
So okay, so let me move on tothe I don't this is a thing that
I don't know if it matters ornot.
But if you Google Land BeforeTime movie analysis, which is
part of how I do my research,here's a behind the scenes
folks.
That's how I that's how I do it.
(25:47):
I just Google.
But if you do that, Google, whatyou'll get, in addition to a lot
of people who just love themovie, is dinosaur nerds who
have a bone to pick with thismovie.
Because because like dinosaurnerd kids grow up to be dinosaur
nerd adults.
(26:08):
I think they just know how toread the room a little bit
better, and that's why we don'thear about it quite so much.
But apparently the species thatinteract lived like millions of
years apart, like totallydifferent eras.
Like one person said, we arecloser to T-Rex than T-Rex is to
the little foot apatasaurusspecies.
So does that matter?
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
You know, that's so I don't know.
Since you mentioned that beforewe hit record, I've been
thinking about that.
Because we are it's an animatedfilm with talking dinosaurs.
So no, it doesn't matter.
Fuck that.
On the other hand, when we'relike, and like the thing is like
(26:51):
dinosaurs are a thing that wecare deeply about, that we know
very little about on the whole,honestly.
Like we're in our lifetime, ourunderstanding of dinosaurs has
changed greatly.
And something that blew my mindwhen I first learned it was that
dinosaurs had not beendiscovered as of the founding of
(27:14):
America.
So like George Washington didnot know that dinosaurs existed,
which like weird.
Which is so cool to me.
So there's a part of me, becauselike I think I take scientific
discovery seriously in someways, and like, well, we should
be making sure that kids are,but on the other hand, this is
(27:35):
how we introduce them todinosaurs.
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Yeah, I am torn as you are, because like on the one
hand, I'm like, who cares?
Yeah, it's a movie.
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
It's not scientific about bears.
I wouldn't care.
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
On the other hand, like when I think about some of
the like very early movies, likeat like early movies that had
like cavemen and dinosaursinteracting.
I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, so what's different, Trace?
I don't know.
I mean, maybe it's because theearly movies, the black and
(28:09):
white films, like involvedhumans, but I don't know.
For some reason, like thatreally offends me.
And like the dinosaurs who arefrom totally different eras, I'm
like, eh, whatever.
They're talking.
Who cares?
I don't know.
Like, I I see the hypocrisy andthe inconsistency in that.
SPEAKER_02 (28:25):
Well, and it's so I mean, it's a meditation on grief
that's different from dinosaursand cavemen just duking it out.
SPEAKER_03 (28:35):
True.
That's true.
That's true.
Now, some of the dinosaur nerds,some of the good things they
have to say is that the ways inwhich dinosaurs were social
creatures, like that they movedin herds, is sort of accurate
and it's nice for us torecognize, though they were not
attentive mothers, probably inthe way that the movie depicts.
(28:57):
And the dinosaur nerds alsoappreciate that the movie really
conveys like how dangerous itwas just to hatch.
And that was like a thing thatlike a lot of that's why they
laid so many, because it was sodangerous in early childhood.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So scientific veracity matters,doesn't matter.
(29:18):
I think that we're like kind ofsort of, but maybe not.
Okay.
So moving on.
I want to talk about thestorytelling and sort of
underestimating kids.
Like we've talked about ittangentially regarding grief.
There is a voiceover, like anarrator who comes at the
beginning and lets us knowwhat's happening and tells us
(29:40):
the thing about the twodifferent kinds of dinosaurs and
whatever.
And then at the end, they makeit to the Great Valley and we
hear sort of the epilogue fromthe narrator.
And I'm cool with that.
That makes sense.
It's part of the medium, andlike I dig it.
It's like there's a conventionthat that's a thing that we do.
The narrator, though, makes anappearance, or not, because I
(30:01):
don't see them, so likemetaphorical appearance in the
middle of the movie multipletimes, including one moment
where like Littlefoot and Sarahkind of argue a lot.
They are like butt butt heads asto like who's the leader of this
little band, and they disagreeabout which way to go.
Sarah wants to go to the easyway.
(30:23):
Littlefoot is pretty sure thishard way is the right way.
And they split up, and thenLittlefoot was right.
And so we see a scene of Sarahkind of curled up by herself and
like looking real sad.
And the narrator, the voiceover,comes over and says, Sarah was
(30:43):
still too proud to admit thatshe had been wrong.
And I'm watching.
And I'm going, like, the fuck?
Why did you just need to tell methat?
I can see it.
And also, what's the very firstthing that any creative writing
teacher tells you?
Show, don't tell.
Like, you were showing me.
You didn't need to tell me.
And I know this movie was madefor kids, but kids are not
stupid.
(31:04):
They're just kids.
And so that was a piece that Iwas like, what you doing here,
Don?
You know, like this was a StevenSpielberg, George Lucas produced
film.
Like with those storytellers inthe room, who thought it was a
good idea to record thatvoiceover?
And I don't know.
I didn't do the research.
(31:25):
Maybe in early tests, peoplewere like, what's wrong with
Sarah?
And they felt that they neededto.
I don't know.
Did her dog just die?
I didn't do the research.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
Did she get a bad grade on her math?
SPEAKER_03 (31:37):
But as a viewer, but as a viewer in 2025, I'm
watching it going, yeah, duh.
It's like, you didn't need tosay that.
So that was like a little piecethat like I think is it's just a
small piece about this onemovie.
But I think it also sort ofspeaks to just in general, like
(31:58):
what we expect of our audienceas storytellers, and sort of,
especially if that audience ischildren.
So it was just like a littlemoment that made me think about
that.
And on that same score, on thatsame score, these little guys
have plot armor.
And I think that's appropriatefor children, right?
There's a scene when they aredefeating the T-Rex where Petrie
(32:19):
kind of goes over the edge ofthe cliff, and the dinosaurs are
pretty sure he's dead, like hisfriends.
And then they're like they'regoing off and they're like all
crying because they thinkPetri's dead.
And Petrie climbs up onto thecliff that they think he has
perished from, and he goes,You're leaving without Petrie.
And like everybody's superexcited and whatever.
So great.
I'm glad Petri had plot armor.
(32:40):
This was for children.
I think if it was made foradults, Petrie probably should
have died, but it wasn't.
But the thing that bothers me isthis happily ever after that we
get, this happy ending that weget.
And like I made a joke, likeit's disingenuous that it's
about dinosaurs, and but that'skind of a joke, right?
(33:00):
What really does bother methough, they made clear how
arduous this journey was, likehow far and how hard, and
there's not enough food.
And yet, when these little guys,who are all children, like
finally make it, a hundredpercent of their families who we
didn't actually see die onscreen are there.
(33:23):
And this is one of those thingsthat feels like it's
underestimating children andfeels like it's like protecting
them in ways that actually arecausing harm.
I immediately thought of thisepisode of Sophia the First that
I watch with my daughter whenshe was appropriately aged for
Sophia the First.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Where a little background of what that I've
seen an episode or two of it,but I don't know it that well.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
It's a Disney TV show about a girl whose mom
marries the king, and so shebecomes the stepdaughter to the
king.
So she goes from being like justa village girl to being a
princess overnight.
And so it's like a it's apreschooler TV show that
Disney's making right now, ornot right now.
(34:07):
My daughter's 13, so in the past20 years they were making it.
They may still be making it.
I actually don't know.
Sophia lives in a kingdom wheremagic is real.
I mean, it's a Disney property.
So there's one episode of Sophiathe First where Sophia meets
this flying horse who's likekind of a couch potato, but also
(34:29):
wants to enter in thiscompetition.
It's like a race, it's like achariot race with flying horses,
and Sophia wants to enter ittoo.
And so they like train togetherand they do the race and they
win.
I'm sorry, no.
Like, that's not the lesson Iwanted my four-year-old to get,
right?
Like, I wanted, I'm glad theytrained and had fun.
(34:52):
And but like I actually wantedthem to lose, maybe even come in
dead last and still think itwill have been worth it because
they made friends with oneanother, the horse talks, and
because they had fun training,and because now they have this
new skill, and next year they'lldo better.
But like they won.
And that's kind of what thisGreat Valley with all of their
family being there felt like.
(35:13):
It felt like not just likeunrealistic in the story, but
also giving unrealisticexpectations to the kids.
Like, I think it's fine to belike stay the course, follow
your mother's dead spirit, andgood things will happen.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
But not unicorns and rainbows and sparkles and
everything.
Wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (35:36):
Yeah.
Perfect.
Right.
Like, I maybe some of theirfamilies were there.
Maybe like even 60% of them.
But the fact that it's like thisperfect place, like the rest of
the earth is like fire andbrimstone.
But this one valley, thismythical valley that actually
exists, is all lush and greenand beautiful.
(35:58):
And do the sharp tooths not knowwhere it is?
So there's part of it's like therealism of the movie that like I
cannot suspend my disbeliefenough.
But part of it is actually alsothe pedagogical component of it.
What are we teaching these fiveand sick year olds to expect
from life?
And I don't want to killpeople's dreams.
(36:18):
That's not what I'm suggesting.
But like there, it does feellike there's an opportunity to
sort of also be grateful forwhat we do have.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Well, it the way you're describing this, it kind
of reminds me of my antipathytowards the last book in the
Chronicles of Narnia, which isanalogous kind of to the
rapture, I guess.
I I don't know.
I don't really because I don'tknow the Christian scripture.
But in the last battle, whathappens is all of the Pevency
(36:47):
kids and other humans we've seengo to Narnia, which is coded for
heaven, end up in Narnia for thelast battle.
But it's real heaven now, exceptfor Susan, because she and it's
because they were in a traincrash, because they were all on
their way to because there wasthis horrible battle going on in
Narnia.
And so they're all on their wayto try to help in Narnia, except
(37:11):
for Susan, because she stoppedbelieving in Narnia because
she's interested in nylons andboys and lipstick.
So, like, oh how dare she careabout things that people care
about.
And because of that, and thennot only all the people who've
gone to Narnia, but thePevency's parents too, Pevency
kids' parents too.
So Susan loses in one fell swoopher entire family and her her uh
(37:37):
her uh like family friends,because who all die in this
train crash and they all go toheaven, and then in heaven, it's
Narnia but better, and furtherup and further in, and it's like
the grass is greener and the skyis bluer and everything is
better, and it's a descriptionof heaven that in a way feels
too good.
(37:58):
And also it reminds me of at thebeginning of the show The Good
Place, like, what about all thepeople who didn't make it?
Don't worry about it, don'tthink about them.
And that it's that same sort ofthing where it's like, if it's
so good, why isn't Susan here?
If it's so good, why isn'tLittlefoot's mother here?
If it's so if everything's soperfect, why how do we keep the
(38:22):
sharp teeth out?
There's a right, we have to joyis not sustainable like that.
There's just there's somethingin there, like it's not a lesson
we want to teach our kids thatyeah, it becomes an either-or.
SPEAKER_03 (38:37):
I think that's you just said it, because in this
movie, the Great Valley becomesan either-or, it's an all or
nothing, and that's just not howyeah, life works.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
And I want to adopt Susan and have her become like a
social media influencer formakeup.
Like I have this, yeah, I havelike fan fiction, yeah, for her.
SPEAKER_03 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So two more points that I wantto make briefly, I think
briefly.
One is about animation.
So I named that this was amoment when like the field
itself, like from the highs ofSnow White, when they first
came, when Walt first envisioneda feature-length film, and it
(39:17):
was a masterpiece, like amillion masterpieces in each
cell, to sort of much like sortof lazier style by the 80s.
This film was an attempt toreturn to beautiful hand-drawn
animation.
And the backdrops are absolutelygorgeous.
And the dinosaurs are adorable,and it's really fun to watch
(39:39):
them the way that they move.
There's one moment whereLittlefoot is riding on his
mother's back and he says, Haveyou ever been to the Great
Valley?
And she turns around to look athim.
It takes a really long time forthat big head to come around all
the way to where he is, which isdelightful.
So I think in many ways, likethey accomplished that.
I think that's why it's soshort, because it was like true,
(40:01):
it was hand-drawn animation.
At the same time, as it started,and I don't know if there's
something in the liketranslation from film to video
to now digital that losesintegrity, but it's like fuzzy
as I'm watching it streaming, atleast in the beginning, in ways
that like I found distracting.
(40:23):
And I suspect it is because ofthat translation from film to
video to digital streaming, butthere's something distracting
about it in the way that wereceive it now, which is
unfortunate.
And it's interesting too,watching it with 21st century
eyes and what we've come toexpect from our animation.
(40:44):
There is a crispness that we getwith Toy Story and the Pixar
films that's just not there fromhand-drawn, which is part of
hand-drawn's well, it's part ofits charm.
But because we've become soacculturated and accustomed to
watching that digital, borndigital animation, there's
(41:07):
something like it, there's alittle bit of cognitive
dissonance and disappointment,which is unfortunate that I
found in myself.
Like from the moment it started,I was like, oh, it's kind of
fuzzy.
SPEAKER_02 (41:17):
I kind of I and I may be misremembering, but I
kind of remember there beinglike water droplets.
SPEAKER_03 (41:23):
Yeah, that's the yes.
The initial credits are over,like an underwater with like
bubbles.
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
Like water droplets on the leaf or something.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
There's one moment when he remembers his mom where
the water droplets come from thefive points and gather into a
little head.
And I remember that being justabsolutely lovely.
Yeah.
Oh, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
So, and the skill to make the water look like water.
Yeah.
Like water.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:51):
And move and all those things.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then the last thing I wantedto name before I wrap us up, or
you add any additional things,is the sort of the notion of
found family.
Like I think this is a thingthat we see over and over again.
It's a trope.
It's a lot of people.
But it's one I think I feel likeour dad really liked.
(42:11):
Definitely.
And I think the reason that wekeep making these movies is
because it's really appealing tous, especially Americans,
especially like sort of postwhatever bowling alone, like
that phenomenon that that guynamed, where as advertising and
housing pushed us into theselike much smaller family units
(42:35):
of just the nuclear family, thatoften families of origin aren't
super like fun or comfortable,right?
And so I think there's a reasonthat we, as a culture, are so
drawn to these found familystories.
Something I found interestingabout this found family, like we
have these tropes of the twowould-be leaders at Loggerheads
(42:58):
and like the super anxiousPetrie and the possibly
neurodivergent Spike, who isalmost like a mascot for them.
And then the cheerful, butactually also very sad and
lonely Ducky.
There are like tropes here thatwhere we can recognize ourselves
in one of them.
And we see them sort of likethere's a moment where again,
(43:21):
Sarah's super stubborn andthinks she can do everything on
her own.
And so they do find some leavesthat are like hard to get.
And so the other four are likeclimbing on top of each other to
try and get to the top becausePetrie won't fly, remember?
And she says, I don't need theyget a whole bunch of leaves
down.
And they say, Sarah, come eat.
And she's like, I don't needyour help, I don't need
anything.
She starts like hitting her headagainst the base of a tree to
(43:42):
try and get to shake leavesdown.
She does it like two times andnothing happens.
And on the third time, as shegoes to hit the tree, Littlefoot
like drops some leaves aroundher.
She doesn't see him do it.
She thinks they're because shebrought down.
Yeah.
And she eats them.
She says, See, I don't need you.
And like he kind of shakes hishead.
But that, like seeing those kindof interactions and like people
(44:05):
taking care of each other.
And then Sarah comes aroundeventually and like it's because
they save her life.
And like, really?
That's what it took, Sarah.
That's why I say she's kind of ajerk.
Like, they save her life fromthe Sharptooth.
But by the end, like sheactually, when they find the
Great Valley, she says,Littlefoot, you did it.
(44:26):
Whereas previously, at everystep of the way, I did that.
Right.
So we see sort of her embracethe found family and like that
sort of coming around.
Like, again, like we love thatas a culture.
And I don't know.
Like, I wonder if that is one ofthose sorts of narrative
(44:52):
patterns, like Beauty and theBeast, that is maybe doing us
this a disservice where we'reputting up with like bad
behavior from our friendsbecause we think that eventually
they're gonna like come aroundand be the friend we want them
to be.
Like, I wonder if all of thesefound family, which I totally
get why we want them, but ifthey like again, like create
(45:15):
furniture of the mind that makesfor unhealthy dynamics in the
real world.
SPEAKER_02 (45:21):
See, it's interesting because I feel like
part of the reason why we likethe found family trope is, and I
feel like part of the reason ourfather liked it is because it
felt like he needed found familybecause his family of origin
didn't necessarily provide himthe support he needed.
SPEAKER_03 (45:38):
Totally.
That's what I agree.
I completely agree.
SPEAKER_02 (45:41):
So there's this like healthy and powerful
underpinning of okay, you'regonna find your family because
your family of origin doesn'tnecessarily have your back.
And then I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
Yeah.
I think what I'm saying is thatthese like movies with the trope
with the loggerheads, yeah,reluctant member, the reluctant
member, I'm saying that thatmaybe makes it so that we don't
actually recognize them when wethink that someone is a part of
that found family who's gonnagive us support when they are
not.
That's what I'm suggesting.
(46:16):
I completely agree with you.
I think many people want andneed found family because
families of origin don't getthem or don't support them or
don't whatever it don't existanymore.
There are so many reasons, evenjust aren't enough.
Maybe they're wonderful, butthey're just not yeah, yeah.
So, like I completely agree theneed.
(46:38):
It's these versions of it whereit's the enemies to friends that
makes me think actually, like,maybe that person isn't actually
going to be your friend and youshould not try to pursue them.
Yeah, it's that's what I'mgetting dynamic.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:55):
Yes.
That that we see it in romanticpairings, but we also see it in
these found family friendpairings.
That I I'm just not sure.
I'm just not sure that thatactually is doing us a service,
especially the people who needfound family because they're
family of origin outside of itthough.
SPEAKER_02 (47:13):
For the people who are watching and see themselves
in Sarah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:16):
Yes.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_02 (47:19):
I'm sure there are plenty of kids who are just
like, I don't need anyone, andI'm too proud to say I'm wrong,
who need an example of what it'syeah, what it looks like to come
around.
SPEAKER_03 (47:29):
Yeah, that that's fair.
And like in kids.
Yeah, I'll buy that.
I wish she had come around forsomething lesser than having her
life saved, but fair.
Fair.
I'll buy that.
I'll buy that.
All right.
Let me see if I can.
I'm actually really delightedthat I had this much to talk
about because I finishedwatching the movie.
I was like, oh crap, there's notthat much here.
(47:52):
So let me see if I can rememberwhat I said and what you teased
out for me.
So I started this at what Ithink is the movie's like core
offering and the thing that itdoes the best.
And that is it's the way that itaddresses grief.
The realistic way that it showsthat grief is not a thing that
(48:14):
you just leave behind with thedeceased, but that you carry it
with you.
And the sort of gift ofreminding kids that the lost
one, the deceased, is still withyou in your heart, in your
memory, and maybe in somesupernatural way, which it
doesn't matter what you actuallybelieve.
(48:35):
I think the idea that they canhave an active presence in your
life even after they are nolonger living, is a beautiful
one that I'm glad that kidshave.
And also the normalizing of thefact that grief sticks around,
that you don't just get over it.
That feels also really importantfor the children who watched
this in the late 80s and beyond.
(48:58):
The thing that the movie makerstried to do that I don't think
holds up as well is theirattempt to kind of push back
against discrimination, whichthey meant well.
It's not terrible, but it alsolike the difference between
racism and sort of the specieswho kept to their own kind is
that race is totally made up.
(49:19):
Racism is very real.
The species, different speciesof dinosaur are actually
different species who lived wholike that's the other thing that
lived more than a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
They didn't even live in the same time.
So that's correct.
And three horns do not fly withlong necks because they don't
live at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
Because they don't exist at the same time.
That is an accurate statementfrom Sarah's dad.
It's not discrimination, it'sit's not discrimination, it's
scientific veracity.
That's right.
So the other thing though, evenwithin the universe of this
movie, is that there's still anus and them with the herbivores
(50:03):
and the carnivores, which I meanfair prey, don't I don't expect
prey to be friends withpredators, but then maybe that's
not the vehicle to talk aboutdiscrimination.
unknown (50:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
So on the scientific veracity of it, I think we both
had sort of a like complicatedreaction to it.
Like on the one hand, they'retalking dinosaurs, duh, it's not
scientifically accurate.
On the other hand, why do weneed to have these different
species?
And also, this is like the kidswho grew up with this and love
(50:36):
dinosaurs as a result are gonnabe super disappointed when they
learn there's no way Sarah andLittlefoot could have been
friends, right?
And I still, I'm gonna say itagain, and I still see how
hypocritical and inconsistent itis.
I hate those old movies likefrom the early 20th century with
the like pitted cavemen againstdinosaurs.
We didn't ex humans did notexist at the same time as
(50:58):
dinosaurs.
No.
Your point that trying to tell astory about found family and
grief is very different than whowould win in a cage match.
So maybe that is ultimately whyI feel differently about the
two.
I don't know.
I'm gonna have to think on that.
We also talked about like whenwe're talking about what we're
teaching kids, there's somethingabout the sort of too perfect
(51:19):
happy ending that feels not justlike unrealistic, like it's not
just about suspending disbelief.
It's also about theeither-orness of it that feels
like a disservice to kids.
And you brought, we brought insome other pieces of media to
kind of compare and contrast.
(51:40):
I brought in Sophia the First,which is another kids' movie.
You brought in the Chronicles ofNarnia and the final example
where poor Susan is the only onewho doesn't die in a horrible
train wreck and get to go toheaven.
But it's okay.
It's not okay.
But her last laugh is that shegets to be a rich and famous
influencer, cosmetics influencerin the fanfiction that Emily
(52:02):
Guyberkin will one day write.
We ended our conversation uhtalking a lot about found family
and the reason that people,especially today, are so drawn
to such stories.
And we talked about how thedanger in sort of the what did
you call it, pursuer distance orpursuer dynamic that maybe is
(52:24):
giving people not so greatmodels for being friends with
folks who they maybe should justleave alone.
On the other hand, you pointedout some of them are the
stubborn kids like Sarah whoneed to see a model for coming
around.
I still wish it were forsomething lesser than having her
life saved.
And then finally, in terms ofthinking about not
(52:46):
underestimating kids, I balkedat the narrator making a
metaphorical appearance in themiddle of the movie to say
things that like I was watching.
Like I did not need a moreexplanation.
I got it.
Yeah, I got this.
Duh.
So that's what I have from the66-minute movie.
(53:07):
Thank you for going on thislittle trip with me.
We will come back to an Americantale, I promise.
What are you gonna bring me nextweek?
SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
I am going to bring you a movie I love to hate.
Love actually, just in time forChristmas.
Oh, yes, for Christmas.
Alrighty.
SPEAKER_03 (53:23):
I look forward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(53:43):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(54:05):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Because the reality is that you don't move on.
You don't get over you it.
You just get on with your lifeeventually.
You do eventually get out of thefootprint and start walking
toward the Great Valley, butlike you're still thinking about
the deceased with you.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's just
pop culture?
(01:08):
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy Decker, and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit because pop cultureis still culture, and shouldn't
(01:29):
you know what's in your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1988 animated film from DonBluth, Land Before Time, with my
sister, Emily Guy Birkin, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
Okay, I don't think this was oneof ours because we were kind of
too old for it when it came out.
I watched it many times when Iwas babysitting in grad school,
(01:52):
which was my primary job, asidefrom being a student, while I
was in graduate school.
But what's in your head aboutLand Before Time?
SPEAKER_02 (01:59):
So I do remember it.
I remember the main character'sname was Littlefoot.
I remember liking that as aname.
That's right.
And I remember there was a leafthat his mother had given him
and that he carried it around.
And I remember there was a pointat which, because he was a an
herbivore, where it was like,eat the leaf! Because he was
(02:21):
hungry.
And I remember the animationbeing beautiful.
And that's all I got.
That's about it.
Recently, someone said to me,and I wish I could remember the
context where the conversationwas, because I was talking about
how I look at a lot of film andmedia that I consumed and
(02:45):
recognizing like how it wasneurodivergent-friendly without
realizing it.
And someone said, Oh, yeah, Ifeel that way about The Land
Before Time now that you mentionit, because there's a character
who might be coded as aneurodivergent.
And I thought that was a reallyinteresting comment, but my
memory of this film was sospotty that I had no clue as to
(03:09):
who that character would be.
So that I found reallyinteresting.
But that's it.
That's all I got.
So why are we talking about thisfilm today?
SPEAKER_03 (03:20):
So, listeners, we have a list of like a hundred
plus pieces of media that arelike on the possible list.
And like every six to eightweeks, we sit down and we figure
out what we're gonna do for thenext set of episodes.
And for whatever reason, thisone jumped out right now.
I don't actually have a goodreason for why I'm doing it
right now.
In fact, as I was prepping, Iwas like, I should have done the
(03:41):
American Tale if I was gonna doDon Blut.
I should have done American Talefirst, which I'll come back to
American Tale.
But so I don't know why rightnow, except that for whatever
reason it jumped out at me whenwe were looking at the list of
and thinking about what to do.
As I mentioned, I saw this moviea lot as a young adult, 25-ish,
when I was babysitting for somekids.
(04:03):
I was like a regular babysitterin graduate school for kids who
are now grown-ass adults, whichfreaks me out a little bit.
But this was one, this was oneof their favorites.
And so we watched it a lot.
And I just had this in mymemory, like hand-drawn
animation, like in a moment inour culture when animation was
kind of at a low point, likestarting to come back in the
late 80s and early 90s, butreally not what it is today for
(04:26):
sure.
And just remember I justremember really enjoying it and
feeling like it was a morenuanced and interesting movie.
And so that's why I put it onthe list.
I'm not sure it lived up to mymemory in rewatch.
But let me give you a couple ofpostcards from The Destination.
It's a very short film, it'sonly 66 minutes of running time.
Really?
So it almost felt like a TVshow.
(04:46):
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's only 66 minutes.
But some of the things that Ithink are interesting that I
want to bring forward are thismovie, especially for a
children's movie, does a verynuanced job of portraying grief.
And I think it gives some reallyuseful lessons to the children
watching about grief and aboutthe person who is lost and how
(05:07):
they're still with you in somesense through your memory and
through your love, which I thinkis really nice.
There's some well-meaning workto try and like combat
discrimination that doesn'tquite live up to, I think, what
the movie makers were hopingfor.
There's also, I have that sortof nuanced picture of grief.
(05:27):
And I want to contrast that withthe lesson of a very happily
ever after at the end of thismovie, which feels totally
disingenuous about a movie aboutdinosaurs.
Just like that fundamentally.
SPEAKER_02 (05:39):
There is something a little odd.
Yeah.
I feel that way sometimesreading historical like the
happily ever after.
I'm like, but they're all deadnow.
Set in 1850.
They're all dead now.
SPEAKER_03 (05:56):
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I want to talk a little bitabout storytelling because this
is a found family narrative.
And so we get tropes, like eachof the members of the found
family of this found tribe kindof has a trope.
And maybe we can get to youracquaintance who or friend who
said this was there was maybe aneurodivergent coded one.
(06:19):
And it does and doesn't hold upwith these five dinosaurs.
And so I want to talk about theways that it does and doesn't.
And also the storytelling of it.
There are ways in which it feltlike the movie makers kind of
underestimated their viewers.
So that's some postcards fromthe destination.
Let me catch you up on the plotof this thing, which for once I
(06:42):
think maybe I can be shorterthan the actual runtime of the
movie.
SPEAKER_02 (06:45):
It might be equivalent this time.
SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
Maybe.
I'll do my best.
I sort of think somebody waslike, hey, let's make Bambi, but
with dinosaurs.
And that was like the pitchmeeting.
Cause so we meet Littlefoot, asyou remember, who is the
dinosaur that's not aBronosaurus because that doesn't
exist in the world.
Actually, he's an apartosaurus.
(07:09):
Now exist again.
Okay, I can't keep up.
So anyway, in the movie, theycall themselves and everyone
else calls them long necks.
So fine, he's a long neck.
And the narrator lets us knowthat like the only people, the
only long necks left in theirtribe is this newly hatched
Littlefoot and his mom and hisgrandma and grandpa.
(07:32):
So how mom had him remains aquestion.
But I don't know how long longnecks just ate their eggs.
So maybe dad died.
I don't know.
unknown (07:42):
I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (07:43):
Anyway, Littlefoot hatches and he's all the hopes
and dreams of his tiny littletribe.
And we learn that they aretrying to make their way to the
Great Valley because the weatheris changing and shit is
changing, and like all of theirthe food that they eat is dying.
In voiceover, we learn thatthere are two kinds of
(08:06):
dinosaurs.
There are plant eaters and thereare meat eaters.
So Littlefoot, obviously a planteater, and we meet several other
plant eaters.
Here's where the sort ofwell-meaning thing about
discrimination happens.
Littlefoot, while they're likethey're walking and they walk as
far as they possibly can everysingle day.
And at some point, theyLittlefoot ends up kind of
(08:26):
playing with a baby Triceratopscalled Sarah.
C E R A.
For all the time I watched this,I thought it was S-A-R-A-H.
So, but it's not.
It's C-E-R-A because she's aTriceratops.
And they start playing andthey're having fun, but then the
daddy Triceratops like standsbetween like his giant foot
(08:47):
between the two baby dinosaursand says, three horns don't play
with long necks.
Okay, fine.
So terrible things happen.
It's like a big earthquake andlike the lane, like huge new
mountains and chasms and stuff.
And Littlefoot is separated fromhis grandparents.
(09:08):
Oh, and meanwhile, I totallyskipped.
There was a Sharptooth, a T-Rex,who heard Sarah and Littlefoot
playing.
They started playing againdespite the injunction from the
daddy's Ryceratops.
And the T-Rex tries to eat them.
Mama Longneck intervenes andsaves them, but she ends up
(09:30):
getting bitten several times.
And then after she's beenbitten, this huge earthquake
with like chasms opening up, shetakes a big fall.
Littlefoot is separated from hisgrandparents.
Sarah is separated from herparents.
Littlefoot goes, finds his mom.
She's like laying down.
He's you gotta get up.
You gotta get up.
She says, I don't know if I can.
She gets up, she falls again.
She dies.
(09:54):
Her last words to him are,remember how to get to the Great
Valley.
And they're like specificlandmarks.
You have to go past the rockthat looks like a long neck, go
past the mountains that breathefire, and you'll find the Great
Valley.
Great Valley is a mythic placewhere there's all the food you
can eat, and there's water, andthere's everything.
It's just Valhalla.
(10:16):
And that's where they werewalking towards.
She's never been there.
Mama has never been there.
She's told us that, but shebelieves that it's there.
Because sometimes you can, somethings you can see with your
heart, some things you see withyour eyes, and some things you
see with your heart.
And she sees that the GreatValley is in fact there with her
heart.
So those are the last words toLittlefoot.
This baby is devastated.
(10:38):
And this is where I say, like, Ithink the grief is really well
done.
Like he curls up in herfootprint and is like too upset
to do anything.
Eventually, what gets him goingagain is he remembers her
instruction.
And so he keeps going.
He gets up and starts walking.
Along the way, he collects alittle band of baby dinosaurs
(11:01):
who have all been separated.
Before mom died, while they werewalking, they said there were
going to be plenty of green foodto eat in the Great Valley.
And as they're walking, they seea tree and there's one leaf left
on it.
And she says, Oh, it's a treestar.
That's what she calls the leaf,because it's got five points or
whatever.
It's like an oak as opposed toan almond-shaped one.
(11:22):
And she says, There's so many ofthese in the Great Valley that
we'll be able to feast on them.
But she pulls it down and givesit to him.
So he's been carrying it thewhole way.
And he had sort of lost it withthe death and the everything,
but kind of that's part of alsothe like mom is still with him.
Like he hears her voice, andthen he is reunited with the
(11:44):
tree star, which ends up gettingrolled and he's carrying it.
Anyway, so along the way, on theway to the Great Valley, trying
to find the way, he's supposedto follow the great circle,
which is the sun, past the rockand the mountains and the
whatever.
So he picks up a little band ofother dinosaurs.
There's first he meets Ducky,who is a little amphibious
(12:06):
dinosaur, who she's the one,they're the one.
I actually don't know whatgender they're supposed to be.
They're the one who the kids Ibabysat for love the most
because they respond, theyrespond to things.
They always say, like, yep, yep,yep.
I remember that.
And it's like super cute.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's Ducky who's very likecheerful.
(12:27):
And then we see sadness inmoments where no one's paying
attention from Ducky.
But they say they're the oneswho they say, yep, yep, yep.
And nope, nope, nope.
And they're it's just they'rejust really adorable.
Then they meet Petrie, who is apterodon who's terrified of
flying, and has a very oddverbal affect as well.
Like he Petrie falls out of atree and he's like, I fly.
(12:51):
And they're like, No, you fell.
You falled.
And he has this weird, sort oflike almost accented English.
Eventually, Ducky finds an eggthat's snoring and helps it
hatch.
And that this is Spike.
He's a stegosaurus.
Ducky names him because he's aspike tail.
That's the kind of a dinosaur heis.
(13:12):
They name him Spike.
And he does not speak like atall.
And it's possible he's the onethat your friend thinks is
neurodivergent coded.
Maybe.
Like, I think in 1988, he wasjust what we would have called
slow back then.
He almost reads, like, you knowhow Goofy's a dog and Pluto's a
(13:35):
dog, but like Goofy's a humandog and Pluto's a dog dog.
Okay.
It's kind of like that, wherethe under dinosaurs are like
people dinosaurs.
Okay.
Spike's a dinosaur dinosaur.
Like he's more like an animal.
That's the way it sort of reads.
And then Sarah.
So those are the dinosaurs, andthey're making their way, and
there's fights between them, andthey have conflict, and they're
(13:56):
trying to find food, and theylike fall down hills.
And along the way, there aremoments of what I want to call
like magic or like mystical,like I would almost call them
like divine encounters thatLittlefoot has that are not with
God, but with his dead mom,where she leads him in one way
or another.
(14:17):
But we see sort of like lightshining down from above, and
like the music is oh, and itlike we know that something
magical is happening.
It's always the mom.
It happens several timesthroughout.
It's like Inigo Montoya, GuideMy Sword Father.
Yeah.
Yes.
Kind of, kind of like that.
Except rather than Littlefootsaying, Mom, help, there's a
(14:38):
more of a proactiveness from thespirit.
Okay.
Meanwhile, the Sharptooth, whothey thought had died, actually
didn't, and is like chasingthem.
They do manage to kill him, andthey think the Petri died while
they were killing theSharptooth, but he didn't.
He survived.
And like they all love eachother and they help each other,
and it's beautiful.
(14:59):
And at the last minute, they'reabout all like Littlefoot's kind
of ready to give up.
And then he sees like a cloudthat's sort of shaped like a
long neck, and it's like mom orwhatever.
And he like follows it.
It turns into like wispy smoke,and he follows it like around
through some caverns and aroundthe bend, and there's the Great
Valley.
And in the Great Valley are theother dinosaurs, like, in
(15:20):
addition to his own grandma andgrandpa, Littlefoot's grandma
and grandpa, are the otherdinosaurs' families, like all of
them, like siblings and parents,and all of them are there
waiting in this amazing GreatValley, and they live happily
ever after.
SPEAKER_02 (15:34):
Until the meteor.
SPEAKER_03 (15:36):
I guess.
Like the thing is, like at thebeginning of the movie, you sort
of think the meteor has alreadyhappened because shit's real bad
and there's no food.
And they're like in this greatmigration to try and find new
food.
So, anyway, I mean that's whathappened.
There's a lot more.
There are actual like episodesthat I could relay, but like I
don't feel like I need to.
(15:56):
Sure.
I mean, so anyway, that's theplot.
Look, it's only 16 minutes worthof recording, and I managed to
get through a 66-minute movie.
I'm proud of myself.
Don't admit it to myaccomplishment.
It's okay, it's all you.
It's not Don Blues, it's allyou.
Uh-uh.
I'm just so good at summarizing.
(16:19):
Anyway, okay, so let me startwith the grief piece because
that is the thing that I thinkis the core strength of this
movie as storytelling.
I think that we oftenunderestimate children.
Like part of me wants to likehave a whole conversation about
what is children's media, whatis appropriate for children's
(16:43):
media.
I think offline, I don't know ifwe've talked about it on the
show.
You and I have talked about theways in which like we consumed
media that was made for adultsthat sort of taught us how to
consume stories in ways that ourkids didn't.
And now we're needing to likehelp them figure out.
I don't think we've talked aboutthat on the show, but this
(17:05):
movie, I think, is from an erawhere, in some ways, we actually
expected more of our kids.
And we like recognize that likethey live through shitty stuff
too.
And so as a guide for how todeal with, maybe not how to deal
with that's the wrong phrase,but as a as a model for like how
(17:26):
grief shows up, as a normalizingvehicle for how grief shows up.
I think this movie is reallybeautiful in many ways.
The way that the that Littlefootlike is like curls up in her
footprint as a way to try andstay near her.
It's just really lovely.
There's also a moment where heexpresses a great deal of anger
(17:46):
at her, like right after she'sdied.
He's like, it's her fault.
She should have known better.
It was a sharp tooth.
And like a little dinosaur who'scalled Ruder, like an adult, it
was like, oh, honey, it's nother fault.
Once he realizes what hashappened, like it's just the
circle of life.
It's how it happens.
And it's, he doesn't say itsucks, but he says it's hard,
but it's not her fault.
(18:07):
As mom was dying, she said, I'llalways be with you, even if you
can't see me.
And that bears out.
And so I think that in thatsense, as like a model thinking
about the deceased, this feelsreally like powerful and useful
for children.
Like the kids, those kids Ibabysat who are now grown-ass
adults.
(18:27):
Like, I'm actually glad thatthey have that in their the
furniture of their minds fordealing with grief.
That like Littlefoot's mother isshe never leaves.
She dies in the first fewminutes of the movie, but she
never leaves.
She never leaves him.
And she continues to be there tocomfort and guide as memory,
(18:50):
spirit, like however you wantto, whatever metaphor you want
to use for that, she's there.
And I think that feels likesomething I'm grateful for that
the kids who were consuming thisnow have in the furniture of
their minds.
SPEAKER_02 (19:03):
Well, I'm just thinking about how grown-ups so
often want to shield childrenfrom hard things.
And so we've mentioned ourfather passed away in 2013.
My eldest was two when our daddied.
And then two years later, welost, we had three pets, and we
lost two of them within twomonths of each other.
(19:24):
We had our greyhound Obi and ourcat Charlie.
Obi, we had to put down inAugust, and Charlie we had to
put down in, I think, November.
And so at that point, my eldestwas four then five.
And because he remembered hisgrandfather and then the two
pets, for the the year thatfollowed, he kept saying, Well,
(19:46):
if everyone dies and I'm theonly one left.
Because he was thinking aboutthe our remaining pet, our cat,
the dude, who's like, you know,our two pets died, and the dude
was who was left.
And that is something thathappens in children's lives.
They experience loss at a timewhen they don't have the
(20:08):
experience or the emotionalbandwidth to, or, or just the
language to articulate what itis they're worried about.
Because for him, it was the ideaof being the only one left, was
what scared him.
And so, like this film, I think,could have been very helpful to
him because for him, it was likethe he really was focused on
(20:31):
there was only one left.
And that's where Littlefoot is.
But he's not the only one left.
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
Right.
Not only does he have his momthrough the mechanism of memory
and spirit, like he also makes alot of friends who become his
found family.
Yes, absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think it's also the case thatI think in children's media, in
terms of that shielding, there'slike, I mean, dead parents are
all over children's media.
But usually it's sort of like wethen distract, it's like one
(21:03):
moment of sad, and then we moveon.
That's another thing that I feellike this movie got right.
Because the reality is that youdon't move on.
You don't get over you it, youjust get on with your life
eventually.
You do eventually get out of thefootprint and start walking
toward the Great Valley, butlike you're still thinking about
(21:24):
the deceased.
You carry it with you.
Yeah.
You know, like the grief,exactly.
And I think a lot of media forchildren that does include death
doesn't recognize that.
And so that felt, I don't know.
I'm really like pleased and gladto be able to like share that
with you.
The other thing that I think themovie makers were trying to do
intentionally, because that thatfeels intentional to me.
(21:45):
That way of addressing grieffeels really intentional to me.
The other thing that I thinkthey did intentionally that I
don't think they did assuccessfully is this attempt to
kind of like counterdiscrimination.
Like we have these grown-upssaying we keep to our own kind,
and then the kids make friendsanyway.
And then in the Great Valley, welearn at the very end that like
(22:06):
they all worked together andthey were a community and their
kids, kids, and for generationsto come, they were no, they
continue to not have thoserules.
Right.
The thing that feels off is thatrace is made up, but dinosaur
species difference is not.
(22:27):
And so that feels like a littleoff.
And also, even within theuniverse of this film, there's
still two types of dinosaursplant eaters and meat eaters.
There's the good kind ofdinosaurs who we can be friends
with, they're the plant eaters,but then there's the bad kind
who we have to try and kill.
So, like, even within theuniverse of the movie, okay,
(22:53):
let's put aside the fact thatrace is made up and the
different species are real.
Like, you still didn't quite getthere because you made this the
dinosaurs into like theterrifying sharp tooth.
Who knows if he even has aconsciousness?
He never speaks, he only growlsand snarls and like bites
people.
And then we have the planteaters who, aside from Spike,
(23:16):
are completelyanthropomorphized.
And it's B.
Are all of the voice actorswhite?
I don't know.
I don't know.
I didn't look into that.
I mean, just from the way thatthey sound, maybe I don't know.
There's no one whose voice islike coded as like American
(23:39):
black.
But each of them has these likeI flies.
Yeah, so Petrie has the I flies.
Sounds like English with anaccent.
Ducky has the yep, yep, yep, andnope, nope, nope, and whatever.
(23:59):
Littlefoot is just a kid,probably a white kid.
Sarah is tough and proud andlike always right.
She's kind of a jerk, actually.
But I don't know.
I didn't do that research.
But anyway, I I appreciate theeffort, I guess, is what I'm
(24:21):
gonna say.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
It's the well-meaning white person
attempt.
SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's and for 1988, I guess it
was an important step in theright direction, but it did not
hold up as successfully as thework around grief.
SPEAKER_02 (24:40):
I was teaching.
I taught to kill a mockingbirdevery year, and this was part of
the curriculum.
It was a story that we hadpassed out beforehand that it
was about like the prejudiceagainst the green-haired people,
and you know, how I don't wantmy kids learning next to the
green-haired kids, and like howit just passes on.
(25:01):
And I taught it every yearbecause it was part of the
curriculum, but it was the samekind of well-meaning white
people wrote it, and it was thesame kind of like this doesn't
actually say or do or meananything.
So it reminds me of that kind ofthing, and I bet it was written
about the same time, even thoughI was teaching in 2006 through
(25:26):
10.
SPEAKER_03 (25:26):
Yeah, probably.
Yeah, yeah.
So okay, so let me move on tothe I don't this is a thing that
I don't know if it matters ornot.
But if you Google Land BeforeTime movie analysis, which is
part of how I do my research,here's a behind the scenes
folks.
That's how I that's how I do it.
(25:47):
I just Google.
But if you do that, Google, whatyou'll get, in addition to a lot
of people who just love themovie, is dinosaur nerds who
have a bone to pick with thismovie.
Because because like dinosaurnerd kids grow up to be dinosaur
nerd adults.
(26:08):
I think they just know how toread the room a little bit
better, and that's why we don'thear about it quite so much.
But apparently the species thatinteract lived like millions of
years apart, like totallydifferent eras.
Like one person said, we arecloser to T-Rex than T-Rex is to
the little foot apatasaurusspecies.
So does that matter?
SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
You know, that's so I don't know.
Since you mentioned that beforewe hit record, I've been
thinking about that.
Because we are it's an animatedfilm with talking dinosaurs.
So no, it doesn't matter.
Fuck that.
On the other hand, when we'relike, and like the thing is like
(26:51):
dinosaurs are a thing that wecare deeply about, that we know
very little about on the whole,honestly.
Like we're in our lifetime, ourunderstanding of dinosaurs has
changed greatly.
And something that blew my mindwhen I first learned it was that
dinosaurs had not beendiscovered as of the founding of
(27:14):
America.
So like George Washington didnot know that dinosaurs existed,
which like weird.
Which is so cool to me.
So there's a part of me, becauselike I think I take scientific
discovery seriously in someways, and like, well, we should
be making sure that kids are,but on the other hand, this is
(27:35):
how we introduce them todinosaurs.
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Yeah, I am torn as you are, because like on the one
hand, I'm like, who cares?
Yeah, it's a movie.
SPEAKER_02 (27:43):
It's not scientific about bears.
I wouldn't care.
SPEAKER_03 (27:47):
On the other hand, like when I think about some of
the like very early movies, likeat like early movies that had
like cavemen and dinosaursinteracting.
I'm like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, so what's different, Trace?
I don't know.
I mean, maybe it's because theearly movies, the black and
(28:09):
white films, like involvedhumans, but I don't know.
For some reason, like thatreally offends me.
And like the dinosaurs who arefrom totally different eras, I'm
like, eh, whatever.
They're talking.
Who cares?
I don't know.
Like, I I see the hypocrisy andthe inconsistency in that.
SPEAKER_02 (28:25):
Well, and it's so I mean, it's a meditation on grief
that's different from dinosaursand cavemen just duking it out.
SPEAKER_03 (28:35):
True.
That's true.
That's true.
Now, some of the dinosaur nerds,some of the good things they
have to say is that the ways inwhich dinosaurs were social
creatures, like that they movedin herds, is sort of accurate
and it's nice for us torecognize, though they were not
attentive mothers, probably inthe way that the movie depicts.
(28:57):
And the dinosaur nerds alsoappreciate that the movie really
conveys like how dangerous itwas just to hatch.
And that was like a thing thatlike a lot of that's why they
laid so many, because it was sodangerous in early childhood.
Exactly.
Exactly.
So scientific veracity matters,doesn't matter.
(29:18):
I think that we're like kind ofsort of, but maybe not.
Okay.
So moving on.
I want to talk about thestorytelling and sort of
underestimating kids.
Like we've talked about ittangentially regarding grief.
There is a voiceover, like anarrator who comes at the
beginning and lets us knowwhat's happening and tells us
(29:40):
the thing about the twodifferent kinds of dinosaurs and
whatever.
And then at the end, they makeit to the Great Valley and we
hear sort of the epilogue fromthe narrator.
And I'm cool with that.
That makes sense.
It's part of the medium, andlike I dig it.
It's like there's a conventionthat that's a thing that we do.
The narrator, though, makes anappearance, or not, because I
(30:01):
don't see them, so likemetaphorical appearance in the
middle of the movie multipletimes, including one moment
where like Littlefoot and Sarahkind of argue a lot.
They are like butt butt heads asto like who's the leader of this
little band, and they disagreeabout which way to go.
Sarah wants to go to the easyway.
(30:23):
Littlefoot is pretty sure thishard way is the right way.
And they split up, and thenLittlefoot was right.
And so we see a scene of Sarahkind of curled up by herself and
like looking real sad.
And the narrator, the voiceover,comes over and says, Sarah was
(30:43):
still too proud to admit thatshe had been wrong.
And I'm watching.
And I'm going, like, the fuck?
Why did you just need to tell methat?
I can see it.
And also, what's the very firstthing that any creative writing
teacher tells you?
Show, don't tell.
Like, you were showing me.
You didn't need to tell me.
And I know this movie was madefor kids, but kids are not
stupid.
(31:04):
They're just kids.
And so that was a piece that Iwas like, what you doing here,
Don?
You know, like this was a StevenSpielberg, George Lucas produced
film.
Like with those storytellers inthe room, who thought it was a
good idea to record thatvoiceover?
And I don't know.
I didn't do the research.
(31:25):
Maybe in early tests, peoplewere like, what's wrong with
Sarah?
And they felt that they neededto.
I don't know.
Did her dog just die?
I didn't do the research.
SPEAKER_02 (31:35):
Did she get a bad grade on her math?
SPEAKER_03 (31:37):
But as a viewer, but as a viewer in 2025, I'm
watching it going, yeah, duh.
It's like, you didn't need tosay that.
So that was like a little piecethat like I think is it's just a
small piece about this onemovie.
But I think it also sort ofspeaks to just in general, like
(31:58):
what we expect of our audienceas storytellers, and sort of,
especially if that audience ischildren.
So it was just like a littlemoment that made me think about
that.
And on that same score, on thatsame score, these little guys
have plot armor.
And I think that's appropriatefor children, right?
There's a scene when they aredefeating the T-Rex where Petrie
(32:19):
kind of goes over the edge ofthe cliff, and the dinosaurs are
pretty sure he's dead, like hisfriends.
And then they're like they'regoing off and they're like all
crying because they thinkPetri's dead.
And Petrie climbs up onto thecliff that they think he has
perished from, and he goes,You're leaving without Petrie.
And like everybody's superexcited and whatever.
So great.
I'm glad Petri had plot armor.
(32:40):
This was for children.
I think if it was made foradults, Petrie probably should
have died, but it wasn't.
But the thing that bothers me isthis happily ever after that we
get, this happy ending that weget.
And like I made a joke, likeit's disingenuous that it's
about dinosaurs, and but that'skind of a joke, right?
(33:00):
What really does bother methough, they made clear how
arduous this journey was, likehow far and how hard, and
there's not enough food.
And yet, when these little guys,who are all children, like
finally make it, a hundredpercent of their families who we
didn't actually see die onscreen are there.
(33:23):
And this is one of those thingsthat feels like it's
underestimating children andfeels like it's like protecting
them in ways that actually arecausing harm.
I immediately thought of thisepisode of Sophia the First that
I watch with my daughter whenshe was appropriately aged for
Sophia the First.
SPEAKER_02 (33:40):
Where a little background of what that I've
seen an episode or two of it,but I don't know it that well.
SPEAKER_03 (33:45):
It's a Disney TV show about a girl whose mom
marries the king, and so shebecomes the stepdaughter to the
king.
So she goes from being like justa village girl to being a
princess overnight.
And so it's like a it's apreschooler TV show that
Disney's making right now, ornot right now.
(34:07):
My daughter's 13, so in the past20 years they were making it.
They may still be making it.
I actually don't know.
Sophia lives in a kingdom wheremagic is real.
I mean, it's a Disney property.
So there's one episode of Sophiathe First where Sophia meets
this flying horse who's likekind of a couch potato, but also
(34:29):
wants to enter in thiscompetition.
It's like a race, it's like achariot race with flying horses,
and Sophia wants to enter ittoo.
And so they like train togetherand they do the race and they
win.
I'm sorry, no.
Like, that's not the lesson Iwanted my four-year-old to get,
right?
Like, I wanted, I'm glad theytrained and had fun.
(34:52):
And but like I actually wantedthem to lose, maybe even come in
dead last and still think itwill have been worth it because
they made friends with oneanother, the horse talks, and
because they had fun training,and because now they have this
new skill, and next year they'lldo better.
But like they won.
And that's kind of what thisGreat Valley with all of their
family being there felt like.
(35:13):
It felt like not just likeunrealistic in the story, but
also giving unrealisticexpectations to the kids.
Like, I think it's fine to belike stay the course, follow
your mother's dead spirit, andgood things will happen.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
But not unicorns and rainbows and sparkles and
everything.
Wonderful.
SPEAKER_03 (35:36):
Yeah.
Perfect.
Right.
Like, I maybe some of theirfamilies were there.
Maybe like even 60% of them.
But the fact that it's like thisperfect place, like the rest of
the earth is like fire andbrimstone.
But this one valley, thismythical valley that actually
exists, is all lush and greenand beautiful.
(35:58):
And do the sharp tooths not knowwhere it is?
So there's part of it's like therealism of the movie that like I
cannot suspend my disbeliefenough.
But part of it is actually alsothe pedagogical component of it.
What are we teaching these fiveand sick year olds to expect
from life?
And I don't want to killpeople's dreams.
(36:18):
That's not what I'm suggesting.
But like there, it does feellike there's an opportunity to
sort of also be grateful forwhat we do have.
SPEAKER_02 (36:26):
Well, it the way you're describing this, it kind
of reminds me of my antipathytowards the last book in the
Chronicles of Narnia, which isanalogous kind of to the
rapture, I guess.
I I don't know.
I don't really because I don'tknow the Christian scripture.
But in the last battle, whathappens is all of the Pevency
(36:47):
kids and other humans we've seengo to Narnia, which is coded for
heaven, end up in Narnia for thelast battle.
But it's real heaven now, exceptfor Susan, because she and it's
because they were in a traincrash, because they were all on
their way to because there wasthis horrible battle going on in
Narnia.
And so they're all on their wayto try to help in Narnia, except
(37:11):
for Susan, because she stoppedbelieving in Narnia because
she's interested in nylons andboys and lipstick.
So, like, oh how dare she careabout things that people care
about.
And because of that, and thennot only all the people who've
gone to Narnia, but thePevency's parents too, Pevency
kids' parents too.
So Susan loses in one fell swoopher entire family and her her uh
(37:37):
her uh like family friends,because who all die in this
train crash and they all go toheaven, and then in heaven, it's
Narnia but better, and furtherup and further in, and it's like
the grass is greener and the skyis bluer and everything is
better, and it's a descriptionof heaven that in a way feels
too good.
(37:58):
And also it reminds me of at thebeginning of the show The Good
Place, like, what about all thepeople who didn't make it?
Don't worry about it, don'tthink about them.
And that it's that same sort ofthing where it's like, if it's
so good, why isn't Susan here?
If it's so good, why isn'tLittlefoot's mother here?
If it's so if everything's soperfect, why how do we keep the
(38:22):
sharp teeth out?
There's a right, we have to joyis not sustainable like that.
There's just there's somethingin there, like it's not a lesson
we want to teach our kids thatyeah, it becomes an either-or.
SPEAKER_03 (38:37):
I think that's you just said it, because in this
movie, the Great Valley becomesan either-or, it's an all or
nothing, and that's just not howyeah, life works.
SPEAKER_02 (38:47):
And I want to adopt Susan and have her become like a
social media influencer formakeup.
Like I have this, yeah, I havelike fan fiction, yeah, for her.
SPEAKER_03 (38:57):
Yeah, yeah.
So two more points that I wantto make briefly, I think
briefly.
One is about animation.
So I named that this was amoment when like the field
itself, like from the highs ofSnow White, when they first
came, when Walt first envisioneda feature-length film, and it
(39:17):
was a masterpiece, like amillion masterpieces in each
cell, to sort of much like sortof lazier style by the 80s.
This film was an attempt toreturn to beautiful hand-drawn
animation.
And the backdrops are absolutelygorgeous.
And the dinosaurs are adorable,and it's really fun to watch
(39:39):
them the way that they move.
There's one moment whereLittlefoot is riding on his
mother's back and he says, Haveyou ever been to the Great
Valley?
And she turns around to look athim.
It takes a really long time forthat big head to come around all
the way to where he is, which isdelightful.
So I think in many ways, likethey accomplished that.
I think that's why it's soshort, because it was like true,
(40:01):
it was hand-drawn animation.
At the same time, as it started,and I don't know if there's
something in the liketranslation from film to video
to now digital that losesintegrity, but it's like fuzzy
as I'm watching it streaming, atleast in the beginning, in ways
that like I found distracting.
(40:23):
And I suspect it is because ofthat translation from film to
video to digital streaming, butthere's something distracting
about it in the way that wereceive it now, which is
unfortunate.
And it's interesting too,watching it with 21st century
eyes and what we've come toexpect from our animation.
(40:44):
There is a crispness that we getwith Toy Story and the Pixar
films that's just not there fromhand-drawn, which is part of
hand-drawn's well, it's part ofits charm.
But because we've become soacculturated and accustomed to
watching that digital, borndigital animation, there's
(41:07):
something like it, there's alittle bit of cognitive
dissonance and disappointment,which is unfortunate that I
found in myself.
Like from the moment it started,I was like, oh, it's kind of
fuzzy.
SPEAKER_02 (41:17):
I kind of I and I may be misremembering, but I
kind of remember there beinglike water droplets.
SPEAKER_03 (41:23):
Yeah, that's the yes.
The initial credits are over,like an underwater with like
bubbles.
SPEAKER_02 (41:31):
Like water droplets on the leaf or something.
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
There's one moment when he remembers his mom where
the water droplets come from thefive points and gather into a
little head.
And I remember that being justabsolutely lovely.
Yeah.
Oh, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
So, and the skill to make the water look like water.
Yeah.
Like water.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:51):
And move and all those things.
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And then the last thing I wantedto name before I wrap us up, or
you add any additional things,is the sort of the notion of
found family.
Like I think this is a thingthat we see over and over again.
It's a trope.
It's a lot of people.
But it's one I think I feel likeour dad really liked.
(42:11):
Definitely.
And I think the reason that wekeep making these movies is
because it's really appealing tous, especially Americans,
especially like sort of postwhatever bowling alone, like
that phenomenon that that guynamed, where as advertising and
housing pushed us into theselike much smaller family units
(42:35):
of just the nuclear family, thatoften families of origin aren't
super like fun or comfortable,right?
And so I think there's a reasonthat we, as a culture, are so
drawn to these found familystories.
Something I found interestingabout this found family, like we
have these tropes of the twowould-be leaders at Loggerheads
(42:58):
and like the super anxiousPetrie and the possibly
neurodivergent Spike, who isalmost like a mascot for them.
And then the cheerful, butactually also very sad and
lonely Ducky.
There are like tropes here thatwhere we can recognize ourselves
in one of them.
And we see them sort of likethere's a moment where again,
(43:21):
Sarah's super stubborn andthinks she can do everything on
her own.
And so they do find some leavesthat are like hard to get.
And so the other four are likeclimbing on top of each other to
try and get to the top becausePetrie won't fly, remember?
And she says, I don't need theyget a whole bunch of leaves
down.
And they say, Sarah, come eat.
And she's like, I don't needyour help, I don't need
anything.
She starts like hitting her headagainst the base of a tree to
(43:42):
try and get to shake leavesdown.
She does it like two times andnothing happens.
And on the third time, as shegoes to hit the tree, Littlefoot
like drops some leaves aroundher.
She doesn't see him do it.
She thinks they're because shebrought down.
Yeah.
And she eats them.
She says, See, I don't need you.
And like he kind of shakes hishead.
But that, like seeing those kindof interactions and like people
(44:05):
taking care of each other.
And then Sarah comes aroundeventually and like it's because
they save her life.
And like, really?
That's what it took, Sarah.
That's why I say she's kind of ajerk.
Like, they save her life fromthe Sharptooth.
But by the end, like sheactually, when they find the
Great Valley, she says,Littlefoot, you did it.
(44:26):
Whereas previously, at everystep of the way, I did that.
Right.
So we see sort of her embracethe found family and like that
sort of coming around.
Like, again, like we love thatas a culture.
And I don't know.
Like, I wonder if that is one ofthose sorts of narrative
(44:52):
patterns, like Beauty and theBeast, that is maybe doing us
this a disservice where we'reputting up with like bad
behavior from our friendsbecause we think that eventually
they're gonna like come aroundand be the friend we want them
to be.
Like, I wonder if all of thesefound family, which I totally
get why we want them, but ifthey like again, like create
(45:15):
furniture of the mind that makesfor unhealthy dynamics in the
real world.
SPEAKER_02 (45:21):
See, it's interesting because I feel like
part of the reason why we likethe found family trope is, and I
feel like part of the reason ourfather liked it is because it
felt like he needed found familybecause his family of origin
didn't necessarily provide himthe support he needed.
SPEAKER_03 (45:38):
Totally.
That's what I agree.
I completely agree.
SPEAKER_02 (45:41):
So there's this like healthy and powerful
underpinning of okay, you'regonna find your family because
your family of origin doesn'tnecessarily have your back.
And then I don't know.
SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
Yeah.
I think what I'm saying is thatthese like movies with the trope
with the loggerheads, yeah,reluctant member, the reluctant
member, I'm saying that thatmaybe makes it so that we don't
actually recognize them when wethink that someone is a part of
that found family who's gonnagive us support when they are
not.
That's what I'm suggesting.
(46:16):
I completely agree with you.
I think many people want andneed found family because
families of origin don't getthem or don't support them or
don't whatever it don't existanymore.
There are so many reasons, evenjust aren't enough.
Maybe they're wonderful, butthey're just not yeah, yeah.
So, like I completely agree theneed.
(46:38):
It's these versions of it whereit's the enemies to friends that
makes me think actually, like,maybe that person isn't actually
going to be your friend and youshould not try to pursue them.
Yeah, it's that's what I'mgetting dynamic.
SPEAKER_02 (46:54):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (46:55):
Yes.
That that we see it in romanticpairings, but we also see it in
these found family friendpairings.
That I I'm just not sure.
I'm just not sure that thatactually is doing us a service,
especially the people who needfound family because they're
family of origin outside of itthough.
SPEAKER_02 (47:13):
For the people who are watching and see themselves
in Sarah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:16):
Yes.
That's fair.
SPEAKER_02 (47:19):
I'm sure there are plenty of kids who are just
like, I don't need anyone, andI'm too proud to say I'm wrong,
who need an example of what it'syeah, what it looks like to come
around.
SPEAKER_03 (47:29):
Yeah, that that's fair.
And like in kids.
Yeah, I'll buy that.
I wish she had come around forsomething lesser than having her
life saved, but fair.
Fair.
I'll buy that.
I'll buy that.
All right.
Let me see if I can.
I'm actually really delightedthat I had this much to talk
about because I finishedwatching the movie.
I was like, oh crap, there's notthat much here.
(47:52):
So let me see if I can rememberwhat I said and what you teased
out for me.
So I started this at what Ithink is the movie's like core
offering and the thing that itdoes the best.
And that is it's the way that itaddresses grief.
The realistic way that it showsthat grief is not a thing that
(48:14):
you just leave behind with thedeceased, but that you carry it
with you.
And the sort of gift ofreminding kids that the lost
one, the deceased, is still withyou in your heart, in your
memory, and maybe in somesupernatural way, which it
doesn't matter what you actuallybelieve.
(48:35):
I think the idea that they canhave an active presence in your
life even after they are nolonger living, is a beautiful
one that I'm glad that kidshave.
And also the normalizing of thefact that grief sticks around,
that you don't just get over it.
That feels also really importantfor the children who watched
this in the late 80s and beyond.
(48:58):
The thing that the movie makerstried to do that I don't think
holds up as well is theirattempt to kind of push back
against discrimination, whichthey meant well.
It's not terrible, but it alsolike the difference between
racism and sort of the specieswho kept to their own kind is
that race is totally made up.
(49:19):
Racism is very real.
The species, different speciesof dinosaur are actually
different species who lived wholike that's the other thing that
lived more than a lot of people.
SPEAKER_02 (49:30):
They didn't even live in the same time.
So that's correct.
And three horns do not fly withlong necks because they don't
live at the same time.
SPEAKER_03 (49:42):
Because they don't exist at the same time.
That is an accurate statementfrom Sarah's dad.
It's not discrimination, it'sit's not discrimination, it's
scientific veracity.
That's right.
So the other thing though, evenwithin the universe of this
movie, is that there's still anus and them with the herbivores
(50:03):
and the carnivores, which I meanfair prey, don't I don't expect
prey to be friends withpredators, but then maybe that's
not the vehicle to talk aboutdiscrimination.
unknown (50:12):
Okay.
SPEAKER_03 (50:13):
So on the scientific veracity of it, I think we both
had sort of a like complicatedreaction to it.
Like on the one hand, they'retalking dinosaurs, duh, it's not
scientifically accurate.
On the other hand, why do weneed to have these different
species?
And also, this is like the kidswho grew up with this and love
(50:36):
dinosaurs as a result are gonnabe super disappointed when they
learn there's no way Sarah andLittlefoot could have been
friends, right?
And I still, I'm gonna say itagain, and I still see how
hypocritical and inconsistent itis.
I hate those old movies likefrom the early 20th century with
the like pitted cavemen againstdinosaurs.
We didn't ex humans did notexist at the same time as
(50:58):
dinosaurs.
No.
Your point that trying to tell astory about found family and
grief is very different than whowould win in a cage match.
So maybe that is ultimately whyI feel differently about the
two.
I don't know.
I'm gonna have to think on that.
We also talked about like whenwe're talking about what we're
teaching kids, there's somethingabout the sort of too perfect
(51:19):
happy ending that feels not justlike unrealistic, like it's not
just about suspending disbelief.
It's also about theeither-orness of it that feels
like a disservice to kids.
And you brought, we brought insome other pieces of media to
kind of compare and contrast.
(51:40):
I brought in Sophia the First,which is another kids' movie.
You brought in the Chronicles ofNarnia and the final example
where poor Susan is the only onewho doesn't die in a horrible
train wreck and get to go toheaven.
But it's okay.
It's not okay.
But her last laugh is that shegets to be a rich and famous
influencer, cosmetics influencerin the fanfiction that Emily
(52:02):
Guyberkin will one day write.
We ended our conversation uhtalking a lot about found family
and the reason that people,especially today, are so drawn
to such stories.
And we talked about how thedanger in sort of the what did
you call it, pursuer distance orpursuer dynamic that maybe is
(52:24):
giving people not so greatmodels for being friends with
folks who they maybe should justleave alone.
On the other hand, you pointedout some of them are the
stubborn kids like Sarah whoneed to see a model for coming
around.
I still wish it were forsomething lesser than having her
life saved.
And then finally, in terms ofthinking about not
(52:46):
underestimating kids, I balkedat the narrator making a
metaphorical appearance in themiddle of the movie to say
things that like I was watching.
Like I did not need a moreexplanation.
I got it.
Yeah, I got this.
Duh.
So that's what I have from the66-minute movie.
(53:07):
Thank you for going on thislittle trip with me.
We will come back to an Americantale, I promise.
What are you gonna bring me nextweek?
SPEAKER_02 (53:14):
I am going to bring you a movie I love to hate.
Love actually, just in time forChristmas.
Oh, yes, for Christmas.
Alrighty.
SPEAKER_03 (53:23):
I look forward to it.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
(53:43):
And of course, share the showwith your people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
(54:05):
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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