The Last Unicorn: Deep Thoughts About Traumatizing Animation from the 1980s

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1982 animated
film the Last Unicorn with mysister, emily Guy-Burken, and
with you, let's dive in.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's

(00:25):
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come over, think with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Okay, um, so we talked offline,so I know that this is not one
of yours, this is not one thatyou are aware of being part of

(00:47):
the furniture of your mind.
And what's there?
What's in your mind, ifanything, about the Last Unicorn
?
What you got?

Speaker 2 (00:55):
So I've heard people talking about the Last Unicorn.
I have no memory of seeing itever.
I have no memory of seeing itever.
I consider it like, if youthink of like the 80s kids
starter pack being likeNeverending Story and Princess
Bride and Ghostbusters, likethat's the starter pack.
I feel like the Last Unicorn ispart of the expansion pack that

(01:16):
I just didn't get.
So, um, but based on what youwere telling me, I think it is
very possible that I did see itand just wipe memory wiped it
because I am into unicorns in away that is a little disturbing

(01:38):
to my spouse.
I have like kind of looked intoboth the book that the film is
based on, in the film just interms of like I've looked it up.
I've looked at screenshots of,like you know, the the imagery,
because it looks like it'sbeautiful animation yeah, it is
it definitely is and I know thatit is.

(01:59):
You know, for those who did getthe 80s kid expansion pack, I
know that it's a similar kind ofheartbreak to uh, um, artax
dying in the never-ending story.
Um, maybe not quite that thatkind of uh like huge tragedy,
but it was definitely like let'sgive children a movie that will
scar them.
Yeah, for sure, that is true,that is true.

(02:21):
Um, so I know that is somethingabout the film.
And then I happen to know thatand it's it's from sometime in
the last 10 years when I lookedit up that there's a magician
named Schmendrick and I thoughtthat was amusing.
Yeah, and that is about theextent of my knowledge, cool.

(02:42):
So tell me, tell me about whyare we talking about this today
and what's your experience withthe film?

Speaker 1 (02:50):
Yeah, so when we make , when we made our list which
continues to expand, by the way,listeners so just so you know,
in case you have suggestions butwhen we made our list, like one
of the things I was thinkingabout was really trying to
remember and investigate some ofthe films that are so deep that

(03:10):
I maybe, as I say, don'tacknowledge or don't recognize
that they're part of thefurniture of my mind, which
doesn't mean they're not there.
So that was part of like why itgot put on the list and I think
I was just looking for I mean,we haven't been picking them in
any order, in any kind of actualstrategic order, just like what
we feel like.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
No strategery from us ?

Speaker 1 (03:29):
Yeah, no strategery in terms of the order.
So, yeah, I was just, I think Ijust was ready to like, dig
into this one.
So my recollection of it beforereally watching it for us was
really, as I mentioned in theteaser for our last episode,
like I, we watched it, I'm sureyou did, but you would have been
quite young, uh, at dad's house, so like maybe you were five,

(03:55):
you know.
Um, so I mean, it came out whenyou were three and we did not
see it in the theater.
We watched it like I want tosay blockbuster rental vhs, like
at dad's house, so maybe youwere five and I was eight,
somewhere in that range.
You know, maybe we were six andnine, but it was somewhere in
that range and I don't think wewatched.
It was.
I'm certain we did not watch itover and over again.

(04:16):
It was not one of those,because it was not one of those,
like I mean, maybe if we wereolder kids, but it was.
This film is like, as onecommentator contemporary
commentator that I read said,like at that point in the 80s,
like the whatever the board isthat puts the ratings on it,
it's almost like they weren'tactually watching animated films

(04:39):
.
They were just like oh, it'sdrawn, gee, because this one
it's.
It has some very adult themes.
So so, anyway, what Idiscovered, and it's really
interesting to me put it as likea Gen X expansion pack, I think
, for a lot of Gen Xers who areolder than us, we're young Gen X

(04:59):
, both of us.
You younger, obviously, butwe're like like you're actually
maybe I think some would callyou Xennial born in 79.
And I'm certainly like a youngGen Xer in 76.
So I think Gen Xers who are alittle older than we are like
folks who were born in 70, forinstance, or 72, who would have

(05:22):
been like 10 or 12 when thiscame out.
I have a feeling it was part oftheir starter pack, right, and
it was one of the ones that waslike like a stuff of nightmares
in some ways, but like subtle,not nightmares that, like, like
Freddy Krueger, was a stuff ofmy nightmares, even though I

(05:42):
never actually saw one of thefilms, not like that, but in a
deeper philosophical kind of away.
Anyway.
So we'll get into it.
But I want to talk about I wantto talk about in this film,
sort of unicorns actually as acultural phenomenon, and how

(06:02):
this film does and doesn't fitinto that, what we've seen of it
in the like since then.
I want to talk about gender abit.
I want to talk about mortalityactually believe it or not and
love and sexuality and magic andthat's a lot of things.
So you'll have to help me keepcoming back to my list because

(06:25):
that's a lot of things and someof them will get smushed
together.
Sexuality and love obviouslykind of go together.
Okay, so those are some of thethemes that I want to talk about
, as you say, based on the bookby the same name by Peter S
Beagle, and it had an all-starcast.

(06:48):
Mia Farrow played the unicorn,jeff Bridges was the love
interest, christopher Lee wasthe villain of sorts, alan Arkin
was Schmendrick, angelaLansbury was Mommy Fortuna, also
a form of a villain.
We had Robert Klein as abutterfly.
Um, and then there were folkswhose names I don't recognize

(07:10):
but I think were known at thetime.
So, um, keenan winn, paulfreeze, tammy grimes, renee
aubergeon oh, you know who thatis.
Aubergine, noir Aubergine.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Noir, he played Odo on you'd know On.
Deep.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Space Nine yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Deep Space Nine, yeah , yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Yeah, so there was this all-star voice cast.
It was the directors were, andthis was before all-star voice
cast was a thing.
Yeah, and to be fair, I don'tknow that all of these stars
were stars yet I think, likelansbury and pharaoh certainly
were, was bridges in 82.

(07:56):
I don't know.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
I think klein was, though so, and that would have
been relatively early in hiscareer I think so too.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
I think so, I think so.
So it was directed by julesbeth, jules base and arthur
rankin jr and it was animated byan animation studio which would
go on to become studio ghiblithat's not what it was called at
the time but some of the sameanimators.
So it was sort of that Japaneseanimation style, but then this

(08:33):
Western storytelling and Westernstorytellers.
So I'll give a synopsis of theplot and then there's a lot to
unpack and I don't think we'regoing to be able to get to all
of it, but's I'll see what I cando.
So we open the.
The title sequence is gorgeousthat tries to incorporate sort
of medieval like tapestry typeimage, imagery of unicorns, with

(08:55):
the animation of the of thefilm, which is really gorgeous
and um.
And then so we open these twohunters and they're like we're
not going to catch anything.
And the older hunter it's likean older guy and a younger guy,
they're both on on horses andthe older guy is like, yeah,
we're not going to catchanything here, cause this is the
home of the last unicorn andshe protects this, this space.

(09:18):
So it's always spring here,it's always beautiful, and the
animal will never see theanimals and they here.
It's always beautiful and theanimal will never see the
animals.
And they say she's the last one, none of the other ones around.
They ride off with this sort ofdirect address from the older
hunter to the unicorn you stayput, you stay where you are,
where it's safe, and you protectyour friends and whatever they

(09:39):
go off.
And then we see the unicorn forthe first time, voiced by mia
farrow, and she's like what arethey talking about?
Unicorns are immortal.
We don't fade, we can be killed, but we certainly don't just
vanish.
How could I possibly be thelast one?
And she's like a little upsetby what she's heard.
Enter Robert Klein as thisbutterfly who I don't know how

(10:03):
to articulate this scene.
It is so bizarre's talk.
He talks to her um, and hekeeps changing his hat and he
talks in these different sort ofvoices and he's speaking in
snippets of poetry and I thinkadvertisements, like I recognize
a line of shakespeare and Ithink I recognize a line of like

(10:23):
, just like tv show commercial.
All mixed up together itdoesn't mean anything.
And the unicorn's getting moreand more frustrated.
She's asking the butterfly haveyou seen others like me?
She's trying to get from thebutterfly because presumably he
has come from another place andshe's never left her forest,

(10:44):
whether or not he's seen otherpeople.
And she keeps saying say myname, but her name is Unicorn,
and I think that's significant.
We'll come back to it.
Finally, after this veryfrustrating kind of riddle-y
kind of a thing, the butterflyshares that indeed all the other
unicorns have been chased bythe red bull and they are gone.

(11:06):
And so our unicorn, mia Farrow,decides that she must go try
and find them and figure outwhat has happened.
So she says goodbye to all ofher animal friends and there's
this sort of tableau with themall kind of lined up like in
twos and threes, and I'm justleft thinking like like, are

(11:29):
they gonna die now?
Or like, are hunters gonna getthem?
Like, are they gonna be safewhile she's away?
But whatever, we don't addressthat, that's just me Anyway.
So she leaves and almostimmediately she's sleeping by
the side of the road and she'scome upon by these two men who
don't recognize her.
They don't see the horn, allthey see is a white horse.

(11:49):
They say she's a mare.
She gets very insulted thatthey would say that and she sort
of says something like I guessmen see what they want to see.
So that was sort of ourintroduction, that not all
humans can see her.
She falls asleep, she escapesfrom these guys, or she escapes
from it's one guy.

(12:11):
She escapes from him.
He tries to catch her with abelt or something he can't see
the horn and so she uses it tostop him.
She runs away.
She's sleeping by the side ofthe road and she has come upon
by mommy Fortuna, voiced byAngela Lansbury and Schmendrick,
who travels with mommy Fortuna.
And then they have there's likea minion.
Fortuna has a minion who's justlike the muscle.
So Fortuna can see the horn.

(12:34):
She sees the unicorn for whatshe is.
She asks Schmendrick if he cansee her.
He can, but he tells her thathe cannot and the minion can't.
She captures the unicorn to putthe unicorn into her traveling
show.
So she has like a travelingside show.

(12:54):
It's like Mommy Fortuna'sWonders or something like that.
So she's got these like circus,train, car kind of thing, like
that's what it looks like to mewith like bars but on like cages
on wheels, and Mommy Fortunaputs an illusion, an illusory
horn which is just straight andslightly curved in front of the

(13:19):
braided like the twisted horn.
That is what we and what weexpect from a unicorn like the
twisted horn.
That is what we expect from aunicorn.
So we can see the unicorn hastwo horns because the humans
can't see her actual horn.
So Fortuna puts this illusionon her so that the humans who
pay money to come in to see thesideshow see a unicorn.

(13:39):
So unicorn's talking toSchmendrick and looks around and
realizes all of these animalsare illusions.
So there's a manticore which isactually just an old toothless
lion and there's another that Ican't remember what the illusion
is.
But the actual animal is justan old chimpanzee with a broken

(14:02):
foot and like a tired old snake.
Who's who is a loose isglamored to look like a dragon
of sorts.
But the Harpy the Harpy's real.
She looks like a giant vulturewith three breasts.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Oh my God, I remember that god, I remember that.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
So schmendrick agrees to help the unicorn escape.
He's not a very good magician,so when he tries to help why
he's called schmendrick?
I mean it's his name, but yeah,yeah, so when he tries to like
open the cage, he shrinks it andshe's like stop.
Anyway.
He says you deserve afirst-rate magician, but you'll

(14:52):
have to settle for a second ratepick, lock, lock, pick, lock,
pick.
A second rate lock, pick,something along those lines.
He's stolen the keys from theminion, opens the lock on the
door, lets the unicorn out.
She then with her horn kind ofdissolves the locks on all of
the other cages not the harpyyet and and schmendrick says
don't, she'll kill you.

(15:13):
But the unicorn's like no, Ihave to.
We, we are two sides of thesame coin.
Right, like where I am beautyand light and life, she is death
and decay and darkness.
But we are two sides of thesame coin.
I have to release her.
And the harpy actually speaksto her and calls her sister.
She releases the harpy, theharpy goes for her, but she kind

(15:34):
of like fights back.
So the harpy, um, instead goesafter mommy fortuna and the
minion and kills them both.
Schmendrick is like run, yougotta run and the unicorn's like
no, you never run from animmortal being, because it only
makes them chase you, orsomething along those lines so
they calmly walk away from theharpy.

(15:56):
Who's tearing mommy fortunaapart?
Though the old witch, like, isalmost proud, like she talks
about like, because at one pointthe unicorn says the harpy will
kill you.
She says it to the witch andthe witch is like, yeah, but I
will have held her and she'llalways remember me, just as you
will.
You will always remember me asthe human who held you.

(16:18):
So there's like a legacy almostin this, even though Fortuna
knows clearly that it will leadto her death and it does.
And she sort of embraces thatand almost seems proud as she's
being attacked.
Okay, so Schmendrick and theunicorn are leaving the site of

(16:40):
the release of the creatures andthe death of mommy Fortuna and
and her minion, and Schmendrickis like, really upset, he's like
beside himself because the youknow Fortuna is dead and it just
he's just grossed out andfreaked out and the unicorn's
not.

(17:00):
She's completely nonplussed.
She's like she chose her fate,she knew what was going to
happen.
I don't have any regret.
And then Schmendrick says Iwant to come with you to help
you find the other unicorns.
And she's like I wish you'dchosen something else as your
payment for freeing me and like,ouch, but okay.

(17:46):
So now they're travelingtogether on the road.
They know they need horses,like see him and just pull him
right out of the tree and carryhim with them into their camp.
This is um, a guy called.
This is keenan win is the actor.
He's captain cully, who is arobin hood type, but not robin
hood, but it's this band ofoutlaws they're eating like

(18:09):
crappy stew.
In fact, somebody complainsthat there's not.
They can't keep this new person, this new schmendrick, than the
magician who they've capturedbecause they can't afford to
feed him.
And um, captain cully's like no, he's great and you know,
whatever, he's gonna stay.
And then schmendrick does magic,and this is significant in my

(18:32):
mind.
At other moments when he doesmagic that fails, he says these
like foreign sounding words,like latin or something.
In this moment he says magic,do what you will, magic, do what
you.
And there's all this wind andwhatever.
And then these sort ofapparitions of Robin Hood and
his merry men kind of walkthrough the camp like straight

(18:53):
through the fire and the CaptainCully's merry men and women are
like oh, it's Robin Hood, it'sRobin Hood, take us with you.
And they follow this ghostlyapparition and Cully gets really
pissed and actually sort ofcaptures Schmendrick for this

(19:14):
magic and lashes him to a tree,facing the tree, arms around it,
and is like I'll sell you inthe morning or something along
those lines.
I don't remember exactly whatthe threat is, but whatever it
is he's going to do, he's goingto do it in the morning, most
likely kill you in the morning,exactly.
So, like Cully and like one guywho didn't run off after the

(19:38):
apparition, they lash him tothis tree.
So Schmendrick says a spellagain with like some kind of you
know-english sounding words andthe tree comes alive and is
this giant sort of thinkmarjorie, the trash heap from
the fraggles like sort ofvaguely new york jewish sounding

(20:02):
, with gigantic bosom, becauseit's like the tree had like kind
of like a mound in the front.
So his face is shoved betweenthese two bosoms that are like
the size of those thosestability balls that you use at

(20:23):
the gym.
Okay, and she's in love with himand she says there's no love
like a tree's love or somethinglike that.
And he says, oh no, I'm engagedto a Douglas fir and it is so

(20:45):
flipping weird, like I'mwatching this thing going.
What is happening right now.
He's remember he's like tied tothis thing, this woman with his
arms tied around her, with hisface in between her two

(21:07):
ginormous breasts.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
Are they gravity-defying bosoms?

Speaker 1 (21:13):
I think they are, because they're that big blow
and with her magic like turnsthe tree back into a tree and
really, like the just touchesthe ropes with her horn and they
, they drop away, and so nowthey're off on their way again,

(21:34):
except they run as they'rewalking, the two of them, the
unicorn and schmendrick.
They're walking, they run, they, they come across molly grew,
who was the cook back at captaincully's camp, and she was.
She was the one who was likeslit his wizard, like get rid of
this dude right.
And captain cully said splendidwoman, that's just her way.

(21:55):
And so she and she's like whereare you going?
Like no, and then she catchessight of the unicorn and she can
see the unicorn and she's howdare you, how dare you come to
me now when I'm like this?
She's been dreaming aboutmeeting a unicorn since she was
a little girl.
And how dare the unicorn cometo her now when she's like this,
putting a pin in that?

Speaker 2 (22:19):
Like this meeting.
Like aged Old Okay.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
But she's, I mean, she's, mean, she's drawn like.
I mean, how can you tell froman animated character?
But we saw mummy fortuna, whowas clearly a crone.
She's not drawn like that okay,it's more like, like, based on
how she fits with othercharacters, maybe 40, okay, okay
, like, her hair is still all,like, is not gray, and we do see

(22:47):
gray-haired characters.
So, anyway, now the three ofthem have decided to go on,
because she also knows the storyof the red bull.
So the three of them are goingto go on and find the unicorns.
So they travel for a littlewhile.
They end up near the castle ofking hagrid, hagggard, haggard,
king Haggard, and the red bullcomes out and it's going to get

(23:09):
her.
And so Schmendrick says heneeds to save her.
So he, he does another likemagic, do as you will, kind of a
spell, and it transforms herinto a human and the point was
to make her not a unicorn,because the bull is after
unicorn.

(23:29):
So she's not a unicorn, thebull will leave her alone.
That works.
But the immediate response fromboth Molly and the unicorn
herself is what have you done?
Like you, idiot.
This is terrible.
The unicorn herself is like Ican feel this body dying around
me.
This is not who I am.

(23:49):
This is not right.
And the they want him to changeher back and he's like I.
I mean, I, I can't like.
I didn't exactly like the magicdid what it did.
I didn't intend to turn herinto a human.
The magic chose the form.
So they keep going.
The unicorn is now this liveyoung woman like, still kind of

(24:13):
all white.
Um, she's put schmendrick'sovercoat on because she was
naked, uh, when she transforms.
So they approach the keep, theymeet two sentries who, like,
bring them in.
They lie about who they are.
Now the unicorn is going by thename Lady Althea Althea, sorry,

(24:36):
lady Amalthea, amalthea, andSchmendrick came up with that
name and claims that she is hisniece.
Schmendrick came up with thatname and claims that she is his
niece.
The king agrees to takeSchmendrick on as his sort of
court magician and thereforejester.
He's replacing a magician whoactually was a very good

(25:00):
magician, who Schmendrick knew,I guess, from his training.
The king was one of the twosentries.
It's only him and his adoptiveson, prince Lear L-I-R, who are
the only ones in the castle,because he doesn't use these
words.
But King Haggard is aptly named.
He's depressed, nothing bringshim joy, and so he agrees to let
these three stay, for thepossibility that maybe they will

(25:22):
be able to bring joy to him.
So, and they're like livingthere.
Prince Lear, voiced by JeffBridges, is immediately
completely smitten with Amalfiabecause she's hot, I guess.
I mean, she barely speaks.
So we see him like slay adragon and like bring its head

(25:43):
back as like a prize for her.
And she's just like.
And so we see him like,complaining to Molly, like don't
know what to do.
I've done all the heroic thingsand she, just she won't even
look at me.
And molly's like yeah, maybetry something else, like you
ever heard of poetry.
So he tries to write her a poem.

(26:04):
They do seem to fall in love,though I have to take the
filmmaker's word for it.
But meanwhile amalthea isforgetting who she is.
She is, she's losing touch withher unicorn nature, and that I
don't need to take their wordfor it.
Like they show, they do show methat she's having dreams about

(26:27):
what we've seen earlier andwakes up and thinks they're just
dreams, to the point that kinghaggard um confronts her on this
like balcony and it's like Iknow who you are, I know what
you are.
I knew instantly.
But she's so dissociated fromthat she is like I don't know
what you're talking about.
I'm not an immortal creature,I'm a human like, and she means

(26:48):
it.
And so schmendrick and mollyknow they need to hurry up and
find this bowl so that they canturn her back, because she can't
.
If she doesn't turn back soon,she's gonna be stuck like this
and she will die.
So you know molly's working inthe kitchen in this castle
that's, uh, abandoned.

(27:09):
She's cooking for everyone.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Of course she is, and uh, well, to be fair, that is
her job yeah, I guess I meanbecause of course it is yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:22):
so she meets this cat who wears an eye patch and has
one peg leg and talks like apirate.
Of course he does, because whywouldn't he?
Yeah and um, he tells her howto find the red bull because

(27:43):
it's become urgent, becauseamalthea is forgetting who she
is, and at one point she startsto cry and schmendrick's like no
, don't cry, because if you cancry, then you've lost what it is
that makes you a unicorn orsomething along those lines.
Anyway, we are to understandthat it has become urgent, that
she needs to stop being human,if she's ever going to stop

(28:05):
being human.
So enter cat plot device Clotdevice Deus ex machina.
Yeah, exactly, cat ex machina.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
Cat ex machina, I guess.
Deus ex cat.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Yeah, anyway, machina , anyway, anyway, Enter talking
cat with an eyepatch who talksin riddles.
She's like why can't you justtell me, why you got to tell me
in riddles?
and he's like yeah, because I'ma cat that fits actually as a
lifelong cat owner so they haveto go in the dungeon and there's

(28:45):
like a riddle that turns out tomean a clock is the entrance
into the bread bowls realm,because it does seem to be so
like a pocket dimension orsomething, I don't know anyway.
So they go into the, um, likedepths, the bowels of the castle
, uh, and they meet a skeletonwho they trick into telling them

(29:07):
more about the answer to theriddle by giving him an empty
bottle that they tell him iswine, because he misses wine.
So he's like on like an emptybottle.
It is weird, it is really weird.
Then they go through somehow,through the clock, kind of like

(29:30):
platform nine and three quarters.
They just sort of walk throughit and end up on the other side
of this weird kind of foggygreenish realm where the Red
Bull is meant to live.
Meanwhile Haggard knows they'redoing this.
He comes and destroys the clock.
So they're stuck.
Then they see the Red Bull.
Oh, by the way, prince Leararis there.

(29:52):
I don't know how I got there,but he's there.
So, um, they see the bull, theytell lear what's going on.
Amalfi is like I don't want togo back, I want to stay with you
.
Lear's like have to.
And there's this whole back andforth where Lear says more than

(30:13):
once I love whom I love, I lovewhom I love, he's going to love
her even though she's a unicorn.
Schmendrick is like no, you gotto go back.
He turns her back into aunicorn because the bull is no
longer fooled and they figureshe has a better chance if she's
a unicorn.
So she gets turned back into aunicorn and initially she's just

(30:37):
um, very hesitant and reticentand he's like the bull is kind
of like pushing her toward thesea which, oh, I totally forgot.
Haggard has had the bull forceall of the unicorns into the sea
.
They don't die, they don'tdrown, but they're like stuck
there.
And then when the waves come in, you can sort of see their

(30:59):
little like, like what's thefront of a horse's snout?
Is it a snout?
Whatever?
You can see the front of their,their faces and their horns
sticking up out of the whitesurf.
That's what I remember fromchildhood, that it being kind of
terrifying.
So they're all trapped in thesea and the bull starts to get

(31:23):
our unicorn into the sea as well.
And then Lear stands betweenthe bull and the unicorn and he
kills him, bull kills him, andthen she's like, oh hell, no.
And she actually fights backand like gets the jump on the
bull and forces him into the sea, freeing all of her siblings

(31:43):
who come out in this like giant.
You see it like like they drawit from above so they're like.
They're just like streaming inlike a stampede and the stampede
like kind of shakes the castlefrom its foundations and it
falls uh like sending haggard ona fall to his death from the
ramparts, but he's kind of likelaughing along the way so kind

(32:07):
of like mommy fortuna's.
Kind of so.
Then the unicorn comes Lear islying there face down on the
sand, he's dead.
So she touches her horn to himand like revives him.
And then they like have amoment where, like I gotta go

(32:29):
Love you Bye, I gotta go Loveyou Bye.
And it closes with her uslearning, I think in her voice
although it's been a couple ofdays since I saw it so I may be
wrong about this but I think inthe unicorn's voice hearing that
she is unlike any other unicorn, because she can now feel

(32:51):
regret, and she does, and theyso the unicorns all go, like
they just leave.
And then we see Schmendrick andMolly are going to continue to
travel together and it's likethere's this one like two second
, like two frames of theanimation where they're kind of
close and you're like wait, werethey supposed to be a love

(33:12):
match?
And then they go off.
I don't know if that was meantto be, but they certainly are
going to stay together ascompanions and who knows what
Lear's going to do.
And then that's the end.
And interestingly, earlier inthe film Schmendrick had said

(33:34):
there's no such thing as a happyending, because things don't
end.
So he doesn't say that now, butwe had heard that earlier and
now we sort of get that.
They show us that with thisending to this film.
So that's the not very concisesynopsis of what happens in the

(33:57):
film.
So I'm going to start with I'mactually going to start with
sort of expectations and I thinkbecause I think that's how you
and I encountered this when wewere children there was an
expectation that this animatedmovie about unicorns was going

(34:18):
to be sweet and light.
There was an expectation.
Our dad rented this movie,thinking he was getting my
Little Pony, and he actually gotlike Memento Mori, like
Remember your Death?
Yeah, yeah, my Little Pony.
And he actually got likememento mori, like remember your
death?
Yeah, yeah.
And which is part of why itlike stayed in my brain was
because of the subversion ofexpectations and from what I can

(34:43):
gather, I had a hard timefinding contemporaneous reviews.
But from what I can gather,that actually is the biggest
critique of this thing that madepeople dissatisfied with it at
the time.
It is now kind of like a cultclassic and like there's a
there's a whole group like a bigswath of Gen X who adore this
film and I think people who arestudents and fans of Japanese

(35:07):
animation also hold this one inhigh regard.
I mean, there are pieces of itthat are gentle and there are
pieces like the three-breastedharpy tearing mommy Fortuna to
pieces that are not at allgentle.
So I want to start therebecause I think, especially
remembering its context in 1982,in some ways the context makes

(35:35):
it less surprising because wedidn't have, I mean, we had my
Little Ponies in the early 80slike as the toy right but the
kind of the mechanism that isthe unicorn industry, that it's
meant to be, like rainbows andpeace and light and appeal to
eight-year-old girls, I'm notsure that it was fully.

(35:57):
It wasn't the size that it isnow in 1982.
So in some ways it was less ofa expectation subversion, but in
many ways it was more.
I read one commentator whopointed out that actually prior
to this, like when Peter Beaglewrote this in the late 60s,
unicorns when they showed up,like in the medieval literature

(36:19):
or whatever, they were oftendescribed as male and so even
the fact that she is female wasa bit of a subversion when
Beagle wrote the novel.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
So one of the things that I appreciate about the kind
of resurgence of unicorns inthe past 15 years I think it's
been is the subversion of theunicorn imagery in the unicorn
industrial complex.
An industrial complex, so Ihave a ridiculous t-shirt for

(36:52):
and I can't remember the name ofthe beer, but it's a.
It's a.
It's a cat holding a veryspecific firearm, like some,
some kind of Eagle, something Idon't even know.
I only know that because I wason a road trip and I was wearing
the t-shirt and at a gasstation and a guy's like hey, do
you know what kind of gun thatis'm like?
I really don't.
I'm here, it's.
It's a cat riding a unicornthrough space with a gun.

(37:12):
I'm here for the cat, dude, I'mhere for the cat and the
unicorn.
I have this um mug of a uh skullriding unicorn with a uh, with
a lightning bolt and a rainbowbehind it, and that actually it
kind of goes along with the umwe were talking about with the
adams family.
My, my style is kind ofwhimsical, with an edge uh-huh,

(37:35):
um, and so pushing back againstthis idea of like sweetness and
light impurities and like that'seven become part of our lexicon
, as we'll talk about.
You know, like it's allrainbows and unicorns out there.
Maybe you know that kind ofthing, yeah, um, and I'm curious
as to, like, when that kind ofbecame what it is, when, like,

(38:02):
we started, and I I suspect thatthis film has something to do
with the rise of, like, ironicunicorns, because the Gen X
folks who are watching it as 12year olds, you know, become the
designers who are makingskeletons riding unicorns and
death riding a unicorn andthings like that.

(38:25):
but it's this really interestinglike cultural phenomenon,
because it's you know, you'vegot the pure white.
It's like a metaphor forvirginity and purity, which is
like this really nasty tropethat we keep putting on women
over and over and over again andgirls and girls like unicorns.

(38:46):
You know, if a boy likesunicorns, that's going to be
considered weird, right, and sowe have all of that.
And so we've got Peter Beaglekind of subverting that somewhat
with this story where the lastunicorn is female instead of
what is prior that consideredgenerally a male, which kind of

(39:10):
makes sense.
Unicorn Phallic yeah, phallicmuch.
But at the same time there isstill a sense of.
You know, we were talking alittle bit offline about how the
unicorn Amalthea is very strongbut she has to be pushed by
schmendrick and leer to save hersiblings, we'll get there.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
We'll get there at the end, after she's been human.
She needs that.
Yeah, yeah, um, I think there'ssomething, though I want to
stay with this thing like therewas.
There's this part of theunicorn lore, as you name is
that, like, only virginal womenand girls can see them, right,

(39:54):
and it's interesting to me thatBeagle who wrote the screenplay,
by the way sort of went with apiece of the lore, which is that
not all humans can see that sheis a unicorn.
But that wasn't the marker.
She is a unicorn but thatwasn't the marker.
It wasn't female virginity thatallowed.
That allows humans to see herfor what she is.

(40:16):
Right, and I'm I'm thinkingright now like what is it that
allows them to see her?
And I think part of it seems tobe their desire to do so.
I mean even the way she saysmen see what they want to see,
right, and when Molly sees herand sees instantly what she is,

(40:47):
how dare you show up now whenI've been wanting to see you for
so long?
Right, and Mommy Fortuna wantsto see, and Schmendrick wants to
be able to see you for so long,right, and mommy fortuna wants
to see and schmendrick wants tobe able to see, and haggard,
haggard I want to make himhaggard haggard wants to be able
to see, and those are thehumans who can see her for what
she is.
So there's, there's, it's aninteresting twist there that

(41:08):
Beagle has given us, and I don'twant to push on something that
isn't there, but I find there'ssomething interesting there, in
desire from the trope that wasabout.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
Sexual purity.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yes, which implies either denied desire or lack of
desire oh, oh, that'sinteresting, yeah so that I
don't know what to do with that,and I didn't.
I didn't come into theconversation with it, it just
came up while you were talking,but that's something that I
think is is really, reallyinteresting, and and because she

(41:50):
does spend time in this otherform, which haggard sees through
.
There's also, I think,something in there about really
being seen and and and like thedesires to be seen, like I read
one commentator who, like,adores this film.

(42:11):
I didn't get the details oftheir biography.
They named themselves to bequeer and having been a queer
kid and now a healthcareproduction practitioner who
works with LGBTQ kids, and howthis movie sort of gave them
model for being seen, and so onethinks about sort of trans and
queer kids in general.

(42:32):
Yeah, well, looking to be seenas they are who they truly are
inside of this body.
That doesn't match who theyknow they themselves to be, like
.
I feel like there's some reallyinteresting allegories that I I
imagine Peter Beagle did onpurpose.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Yeah, well, I'm also just thinking the fact that
Amalthea, like, is immediatelyhorrified that she has been made
human, but then startsforgetting who she truly is.
Yeah, like the sense of beingin the closet and Kind of
stealing one's truth yeah evenfrom oneself yeah, and to to the

(43:14):
point where, like you know,okay, because it's what's
expected you get comfortablethere yeah um, yeah, one could
get comfortable there.
I don't want to, I don't put itthat way.
But uh, you know, and and howthe the pain of that, and even
the pain of no choice, iswithout consequences.

(43:34):
And so living your true selfdoes mean having to leave some
things behind, like Prince Lear.
Yep, and that is ultimatelywhat must be done, because not
living your truth is not living.
It must be done because notliving your truth is not living.
But you know the, therecognition that there are
things that are are going tohave to change.

(43:55):
Yeah, yeah is really interesting.
Yeah, I, I am.
I do want to think, because yousaid the the novel was written
in the late 60s.

Speaker 1 (44:01):
I believe it's 1968.

Speaker 2 (44:03):
Let me confirm that is that the summer of Love?

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yes, but that's when it was published, okay.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
I'm just thinking, you know, say what you will
about boomers In the 60s.
They were pushing back True.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yes, originally published in 1968.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Yes, yeah, so they were pushing back against the
idea that you know, sex is badand so it's interesting because
you can draw a line there fromlike okay, this dude is writing
about something that's you know,presumably well known in
unicorn lore.
Like only little girls, onlyonly virgins, can catch a

(44:46):
unicorn and put turning that onits head, making it the unicorn
female instead of male, and soyou get from that to a queer gen
x, or watching it as a childand seeing themselves in it, to
becoming like a health carepractitioner who helps kids find
their truths and live theirlive their lives authentically.

(45:10):
Like.
It's just this very interestingthing, because each generation
builds on the mores of the onebefore in a way that we hope
progresses the world in a placewhere everyone feels loved and
accepted.
Yeah, but yeah, I find thatreally, really interesting.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, so but yeah, I find that really
really interesting.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I'm gonna circle us back tosomething that you said about,
about femininity, about strongwomen.
So it's interesting that thethe three named female
characters that we get right.
So we've got molly and mommyfortuna and the unicorn herself,
amalthea, and they are in factin terms of age, they fall into

(45:54):
the archetypes.
Molly's the mother, we.
She doesn't literally have kids, but she falls into that sort
of age range archetype and she'staking, she's certainly taking
care of people both at the campand in the castle, with the
cooking and cleaning and things.
Mommy Fortune is absolutely acrone depicted that way and that

(46:16):
is sort of how she, and she'salso a witch, but she is a crone
.
And then Amalthea is the maiden.
You were sort of pointing tothe fact that.
So at the very end, after she'sbeen turned back into a unicorn
, which she resisted, she didn'twant to be a unicorn again, she
wanted to stay human.
It was lear and and andschmendrick who kind of pushed

(46:39):
that on her and then, once sheis a unicorn, she needs to be
nudged into actually kind offighting back against the bull.
She was just kind of gonnaaccept her fate.
When she sees lear injured,killed, that's when she actually
fights back.
So it's it's based on whathappens to him, not what's
happening to her, nor what hashappened to her unicorn siblings

(47:02):
.
So you know, as you said, likeshe's strong and does what needs
to be done, but she needs thismale push in order for that to
happen.
Mommy Fortuna does not.
Everything she does is her ownthing and we judge her for it.
And also, like what she saysisn't wrong about how she will

(47:26):
be remembered Now.
Is that the legacy that we want?
Like I don't think we're meantto like treat her as a role
model by any means, but neitheris what she says false if that
makes sense.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
That reminds me of um .
There's a quote and I wish Icould remember who said it.
Sounds like something may westwould say but if, if, if can't
be a role model, you might aswell be a cautionary tale.
And it's funnier the way I'veread it, like an absolute
fucking disaster of a cautionarytale, something like that.
And there is something to thatwhere it's just like you know

(48:04):
what.
Yeah, I'd kind of rather likeI'm down with horrible, brutal
death, knowing that I have madea mark.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
I mean, it's a shitty mark that she makes.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
But yeah, oh, yeah, yeah but.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
I can see, especially since, actually, now that we're
talking about this, both of thetwo truly magical creatures
that she captured were female.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
The harpy and the unicorn were both female.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
What you're telling me about mommy fortuna reminds
me of esther finch from dead boy, totally, totally, totally.
As I was watching dead boydetectives I was like, all right
, so she's awful, but I love heroh my god and when I enter into
my super villain phase, I haveblueprint now because I want to
be like she's amazing, exceptnot at all.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
I feel like I am entering my witchy era and like
that's the witch I want to be,except minus the murder stuff.
Yeah, yeah.
But I'm now that I'm thinkingmommy fortuna, who is absolutely
the crone.
Her name is mommy.
Yeah, she is not the motherarchetype, which actually I
think it's clear to me.

(49:10):
Beagle chose the names veryintentionally, so I think maybe
some of that subversion is onpurpose.
Right, molly is the is themother figure in the archetype,
not particularly Molly grew.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Yeah and grew.
I mean like gruesome, I meanI'm thinking like that.

Speaker 1 (49:32):
Yeah, I mean mean everybody is.
There is no um sort ofnurturing maternal mother here,
but there's, I don't know,there's something really there's
something ripe there that Idon't think I have captured.

Speaker 2 (49:45):
Yeah, well, there's also the sense that, like the
irony of her name being mommyfortuna, because she is so she
is the opposite of motherly, andthat is the worst thing we can
think about a woman is a motherwho is not motherly it's
interesting too that it's mommylike I kept wanting to make it

(50:07):
mama in my memory, but it's not.

Speaker 1 (50:08):
It's mommy, which is very yeah.
Yes, it's interesting too thatit's mommy Like I kept wanting
to make it mama in my memory,but it's not.
It's mommy, which is very yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yes, it's, and that's .
That's the kind of mother thatwe are most judgmental towards
for not being motherly enough.
You know, a mommy to a, to asmall child, cause that's when
you're mommy.
Yep, yep, it's, it's, it'sfascinating, and I'm very, I'm,

(50:34):
I'm very curious about beagle'sbackground, like where this is
coming from.
Um, is he working through hisown shit or is this?

Speaker 1 (50:42):
yeah, yeah, yeah, well, so especially interesting,
like let's let's talk aboutsort of the fundamental themes,
like the.
If you know, if we're going tounderline the thesis here, it's
certainly, as I said, like dadthought that he was getting us
my Little Pony, he was actuallygiving us, you know, remember
your Death.
It really is about theessential nature of mortality to

(51:07):
morality of mortality tomorality the unicorn isn't
precisely amoral.
She certainly has a moral codeof her own in insofar as when
she releases the harpy, it'slike it's a, it's a, it's a, it
feels.
It feels an amoral obligationwhen she releases the harpy.
But she says to schmendrick Iam incapable of feeling regret,

(51:30):
that's just not a thing I do,and she doesn't want to.
Why would she?
And so, at the very end, whenwe realized that she is a
unicorn among unicorns if wetake the word to mean something
that is very rare, in that,because she spent time as a
human, because she, she facedmorality, she felt that body
dying around her.
Remember, now she was able tofeel regret.

(51:53):
So there's this implicationthat mortality is required and
that regret or some sort of, youknow, moral compass that would
lead to regret is impossiblewithout it.
And we are left feeling that,though it is hard, though it is

(52:17):
painful, unicorn slash, amalfiis richer for having it.
We are certainly left with thatimplication.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
Yeah, you know that gets into.
That's bringing two things upfor me.
One is this phenomenal bookseries by Neil Shusterman called
Scythe.
It's set in a kind of dystopianfuture after death has been
solved.
So basically, if you die, theysay that you get dead-ish.

(52:53):
As long as you get to a medicalfacility within a couple of
hours, you can be revived.
So the only way to really dieis if you are killed and then
not brought to medical facilitywithin a few hours.
And and so there are like themafia would would like take
someone out to the desert tokill them and then leave them

(53:15):
there, so they'd stay dead.
Um, and so once this hashappened, these medical
breakthroughs, they have asociety has created what they
call sides, which are people whocull individuals on a random
basis, who are not to be revivedto make sure that there is no
overpopulation.
And, um, Neil Shusterman isJewish and I found this to be a

(53:38):
very Jewish book, even thoughit's not overtly Jewish.
Um, because it talks about whatis art, what is morality, what
is meaning when they're in asociety without death, and is
what the sides are doing.

(54:00):
Is that beneficial, Is that agood thing?
There's also questions of power, because some sides take their
responsibility as this veryimportant moral responsibility
and some take it as an excuse toexert power.
An excuse to exert power.

(54:24):
So I'm thinking about thatbecause there there's a point
where the main character, um,goes with.
She becomes an apprenticeScythe.
She goes with her mentor to anart, to a museum, and they talk
about how art was better beforedeath was solved.
Like, there there's they justyou can't create art anymore
when people don't die.
And I, I, I really loved thatpoint of view because, like,

(54:48):
there is this sense of like,what we're expressing through
art is something that disappearsif we have all the time in the
world.
Um, and then the other thingit's bringing up is our first
episode.
We talked about Twilight and Ithink I mentioned in that
episode that to me it was reallyclear that part of Twilight is

(55:11):
Stephanie Meyer working throughher extraordinarily acute fear
of death.
Because for me, the idea ofbecoming a vampire and staying
the same forever, especially,sounds like hell, not even 20
years old yes, and I remembertalking to a um colleague of

(55:32):
mine because I was teaching atthe time.
I was talking to a colleague inthe english department break
room saying like I don't getwhere she's coming from, because
death is a gift.
And they're like what?
And I'm like, well, you know,you become like haggard if you,
if, if you never experienceddeath, there is, there is no
meaning to anything becausethere is no end to it.

(55:55):
And like, for one thing, likedeath is a gift because if we
didn't die then we couldn't havenew things be born, which is
like part of the problem.
Inside you get people who arelike mother of 11, because not
only can you live forever, youcan stay young forever,
basically, and so you can keephaving babies and so, like you

(56:16):
know, you get thatoverpopulation problem.
But you also get the, the ideaof like there is no sense of I
can appreciate a two-year-old asan 80-year-old in a much
different way than I appreciatea two-year-old as a 13-year-old.
You know, like recognizing likethat that the different places
in life they're not there ifthere's no death.

(56:36):
So I think that it's reallyinteresting that this film.
So I think that it's reallyinteresting that this film is
saying, basically, there is nosense of regret or morality.
Morality is not quite, butthere's no sense of regret if
you're immortal.
But that doesn't makeimmortality better, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:03):
No, in fact.
I mean, the movie certainlyimplies that it makes it worse.
Yeah, that makes it worse thatthat her life is somehow
incomplete yeah, well, and it's.

Speaker 2 (57:09):
It's the same way, um .
So we recently had to put ourdog down and I ran into a friend
of mine, um, earlier today andI was talking to her a little
bit about it and I was tellingher there's a comedian I think
it was Louis CK, but it wasbefore we knew where.
He said like you bring a puppyhome to your family, and it's
like here let's have our heartsbroken in 10 years because

(57:33):
that's what it is to own a pet,and you know as tough as it's
been after having put Tevo down,like that's how you know it's
meaningful.
You know, if, if we got a dogthat lived forever, you know
that that wouldn't mean as muchas being able to see him through

(57:54):
his entire lifespan.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
I have no idea how long we've been talking because
we've had some technicaldifficulties and so this is like
our third recording.
So actually synthesizing isgoing to be really hard.
But there is one thing that Iwant to, um, I'm going to bring
us around to, uh, I want to, Iwant to talk about magic
actually, and sort of Beagle'sunderstanding of magic in this
film and like what he's givingus, because I think there's
something to me it's verysignificant then, when schmidt,

(58:23):
that when schmendrick says whenhe says a spell it doesn't go
the way he wants it to, when hesays, magic, do what you will,
amazing things happen.
It's magic do what you will.
That brings forth the robinhood apparitions, which are
amazing and delight andmesmerize Captain Cawley's crew.

(58:46):
It's magic do what you will.
That transforms the unicorninto Amalthea.
And I think there's somethingresonant alive in that truth,
with the sort of theme that wewere talking about a little
while ago, about being seen forwho one truly is, even being

(59:10):
seen at all, like that, the wellbeing seen for who one truly is
, whether it's seeing throughthe human costume that the
unicorn is wearing or being ableto see that she is in fact a
unicorn and not just a beautifulwhite mare, and so there's
something.
There's something in this filmin multiple ways about

(59:36):
authenticity authenticity and Ithink that there's there's these
resin, I'm I'm feeling like, uh, like constellations where
they're sort of like brightlines between different distinct
stars, right.
So there's a distinct starabout magic as a real force that

(01:00:01):
is separate from humanity,which can be channeled but has
its own kind of flow, and whenSchmendrick tries to control the
flow he messes it up, but whenhe lets the flow kind of happen,
sort of through him, amazingthings happen.
There's also this thing aroundthe immortal creature and sort

(01:00:24):
of being seen authentically.
So again, authenticity here,right, and there's something
about desire in that regret anddeath and the and the inner and

(01:00:46):
the relationship with death andwhat that relationship with
death allows to be possible.
And I don't know precisely whatthe constellation is that's
been drawn with these brightlines, but I feel like they're
there and it's kind of likepulsing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
So where I often go and it's because of my own
complicated relationship withcreativity, but the, the magic,
do what thou wilt, compared totrying to channel it in a
specific way, feels like thecreative process.
You know where, if you aretrying to create something very

(01:01:29):
specific as a writer, painter,artist, musician, whatever,
because that's the right way todo things, it's going to be
awful, whereas if you just letthe muse take you where it's
going to take you, even ifyou're not supposed to write
that way, even if it's notsupposed to be like that, that's

(01:01:50):
when you get wonderful, amazingthings that you never would
have expected.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
I think there's also something, though, if that's the
way we're going to go, I likethat very much.
There is also something in kindof being able to recognize it
when you see it, with the desireto see the unicorn, so that
when, like, molly didn't get tosee the unicorn because she
wanted to see it, but when theunicorn was in front of her she

(01:02:15):
was able to see it because shewanted to see it.
Right, so she didn't make ithappen, but like the practice of
thinking about it allowed it tobe recognized once it was there
, which I, it does, feel relatedto me, to what you're saying
about creativity?

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
yeah, um, absolutely, again, like I, I'm gonna be
looking up peter s beagle andfind out like what else he's
written, and because this is theonly thing I've ever known his
name in connection with.
I'm just curious if this is,you know, if these are things
that he wrestled with, or if hestumbled upon these themes that

(01:02:52):
just resonate with people.
Yeah, because they do.

Speaker 1 (01:02:56):
I'm thinking about your point about death as a gift
and like essential, andremembering the relationship
that was named explicitlybetween the harpy and the
unicorn.
Oh yeah, the harpy as an agentof death and darkness and decay,
specifically and the unicornand of life and sister yeah,
yeah, yeah, like the, the harpynames herself as sister and the

(01:03:21):
unicorn acknowledges it.
We are two sides of the samecoin.
I am your sister, like theyboth see their relationship,
which you know, I also, is very.
It's explicit there in thatmetaphor that you were just
giving about the importance ofdeath and then it runs through.
The unicorn is not creative.

(01:03:43):
She everything stays exactly asit is.
That is her role.
She keeps things status quo inthat forest cool, that is cool.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
I can certainly understand why this film would
be kind of traumatizing for alittle five-year-old Emily and
eight-year-old Tracy to watch,but it's like Neverending Story.
There is this meaty stuff thereand I know that there's good
stuff, good children'sentertainment, out there that

(01:04:20):
they're making these days, butyou know that that kind of meaty
stuff I I feel like is oftenmissing from a lot of pop
culture for kids.
Yeah, yeah but this wasn'texactly for kids.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
Yeah Well, I have no idea how long we've been talking
, but I'm I actually do thinkit's, think it feels like it's
been a while Probably.
So I'm going to suggest thatmaybe I'm going to try, but I'm
going to need your help becausethis is our third take that I'm
going to stitch together andpost because I love you all
listeners, I love you so much soLast Unicorn, 1982 film based

(01:05:03):
on a 1968 novel.
This film in some ways was verysubversive and looking backward
it doesn't seem subversivebecause now, like at every truck
stop, we have like t-shirtswith death riding unicorns
holding very specific rifles.
But in 1982, there were thingsabout this that were deeply

(01:05:28):
subversive, one being, accordingto one commentator that I read,
the fact that the unicorn wasfemale, the fact that we have a
love story but that love is nota reason to give up one's dreams
, feels extremely, totally likeBaby, feels very subversive in

(01:05:51):
1982 to me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
And we're talking about Baby from Dirty Dancing.
Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
I think it was also.
I mean, part of the things thatpeople don't like about this
movie.
They actually say out loudthere's no such thing as a happy
ending, because things neverend.
This is not a happy ending.
It's satisfying, it issatisfying, but it is not a
happy ending.
And so when our dad rented thisanimated film for his eight and

(01:06:19):
five year old, thinking it waslike gonna be a distraction for
them for 90 minutes, and thenthey'd come away like yay, that
ain't what happened, becausethat's not what happens in this
film.
So that also feels subversive.
I mean, and we didn't even talkabout the fact that they use
this medium, this animatedmedium, to tell this kind of

(01:06:39):
story.
Right, to use the, a mediumthat is completely associated
with children by the 80s.
Um, that it was kind of a lowpoint for disney, like it wasn't
, like it was like a cheap wayto tell stories to kids, and so
the stories were mostly cheapand this was not a cheap story

(01:07:04):
and it's not cheap animation.
I don't and I don't mean theactual cost value of whatever
they paid the japanese animators, but I mean the care that was
taken with the craft.
There are some reallyinteresting and alive tensions
going on in this film throughallegory and metaphor, thinking

(01:07:26):
about authenticity, thinkingabout the role that death and
the potential for loss play increativity, thinking about what
it means to allow a creativeprocess to work through someone
rather than trying to bend it toone's will.
There's interesting stuff goingon in here about authenticity

(01:07:49):
of a person being seen, which wesee why it becomes beloved for
members of queer community who,like the commentator that I read
I'll link to it was apsychology today story.
A queer health carepractitioner today who in 1982
was a queer kid, seeingthemselves in this movie being

(01:08:11):
seen for who they truly were youknow I I want to just add
something to that, please.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
I was recently at a creative writing conference very
small for sci-fi and fantasywriters and we ended up having a
really interesting discussionabout representation in fiction
and it was a lot of people whowere members of marginalized
communities were talking abouthow, the importance of being

(01:08:42):
seen, and there was one personwho very well meaning but, um,
as far as I could tell, whitecishet dude was saying like you
know, that's great being seen,but you know, like not
everyone's going to be seen, notblah, blah, blah.
And um, I ended up talking tohim a little bit saying like

(01:09:03):
it's not so much as the seen ornot seen, it's seen as something
you're not, so that when youare seen as what you are, that
is like, oh, thank goodness, youknow, like you got it right,
and it's not so much theinvisible than visible.
It's more about, like you know,forced into a mask and being

(01:09:28):
seen without it and if you'reused to always being stuck in a
mask, having someone say, no, no, I see what you actually are, I
see who you actually are, I seewho you actually are, and it
just feels amazing.
And people who are not membersof marginalized communities
don't have that experience asmuch, and in fact they kind of

(01:09:50):
lose their minds when it doeshappen.
Yeah, that's true, people fromnon-marginalized communities can
really get their feelings hurt.
Yeah, they feel misrepresentedmisrepresented, mistreated, yeah
, yeah, misjudged yeah,absolutely yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Other things that I think beagle was doing, like
especially with the names, sortof playing with our expectations
again with the names, right.
So schmendrick uh, yiddish wordthat means like a stupid guy,
like a, like a, like a dumbassright, and he is, except when
he's not right like he's.
He's a terrible magician inwhom the magic really flows.
We've got mommy fortuna, who isvery much a crone.

(01:10:33):
We've got you know um, theunicorn, whose name is unicorn
until she becomes human.
One presumes all of theunicorn's name unicorn.
So there's like there's reallyinteresting things going on
there, like having talked aboutsort of the authentic essence of

(01:10:54):
a person or a being and thentheir names.
There's some interesting thingsgoing on that that beagle has
has done for us in playing withthis and in terms of a feminist
critique of this movie orfeminist analysis of of this
movie, like in some ways we get,we get the archetypes, we get
the expected.

(01:11:15):
We have a mother, maiden and acrone, and yet they're not.
Each one of them is notprecisely that.
We have this core.
I mean the titular character,who is female, which is against
expectations and is extremelystrong, extremely powerful,

(01:11:37):
immortal and also needs a nudgefrom two separate male
characters in order to do I'mputting quotes around the right
thing, um, and not even theright thing, the thing that she
set out to do.
She left her forest to find andsave her kin and yet, at the
actual moment of reckoning, sheneeds shmendrick and lear to

(01:12:03):
sort of give her a nudge to makeit happen.
Finally, I guess well, finally,probably not finally another
thing, and then we can see ifit's finally is um, I didn't.
I don't know if I said thisprecisely, but I want to come
back to King Haggard and hisdepression and the ways in which

(01:12:26):
the fact that nothing bringshim joy, like it, pushes him
into hurting others.
And in my read of this and Iwouldn't be surprised if
somebody disagreed with me and Iwould not die on this hill, but
in my read of hischaracterization we hold him
with balance, there is somesympathy for him and there's

(01:12:48):
also like dude, not okay, likeright, like both, like I I I
came away with both so that hisdeath did not it had no pathos
to it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:02):
I wasn't sorry he was dead and at the same time, I
did have some sympathy for himin this like just crushing
depression and nihilism that hewas laboring under so this is
entirely based on what you'vetold me today, because I have

(01:13:23):
really no memory of this movie,but it feels like Mommy Fortuna
and King Haggard and they arethe only two like villains
really.
I mean, the Red Bull is, butthe Red Bull is being what the
Red Bull is.
Right, yeah, agreed, yes,absolutely Agreed yes.
Absolutely so.
They seem like two sides of thesame coin, where Mommy Fortuna

(01:13:45):
is grasping for something liketo be remembered, Whereas
Haggard is just trying torecapture or just is depressed
and cannot like it's.
He's not proactive exactly wellnot exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:14:07):
It's interesting that you say that, because they do
also both capture unicorns.
Um, she does it so that theunicorn will remember she was
the one who captured him andthereby she will live forever.
He captures them because seeingthem and knowing that they are
his is the closest thing he hasto joy.

(01:14:28):
Yes, so there is.
There is certainly.
It's like two different takeson power.

Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Yes, yeah and what's interesting, and I feel like
that's kind of gender takes onpower and maybe I'm wrong on
that, but I feel like I cansympathize with Mommy Fortuna's
aim, like like that's not reallywhat I want, but when I think

(01:14:59):
about being forgotten, that iswhat makes me upset.
It's like the idea of notleaving any kind of mark on the
world and, you know, beingforgotten.
And so, even if it's forsomething awful, the idea of
like okay, I made my mark, I'mokay with dying because I will
be remembered, even if it's forsomething awful, I will be
remembered, even if it's forsomething awful.
Whereas the idea of havingsomething, corralling something,

(01:15:24):
owning something, is not in anyway tempting to me.
There's nothing about that thatsounds good.

Speaker 1 (01:15:33):
Yeah, I think part of it is the relationship, like
the relationship to the otherright like fortuna, she
recognizes it's an, it's aninappropriate and unbalanced
relationship.
But it is in the memory of therelationship that that, that the
relationship itself.
The power over is not the endgoal.
The power over is the means toyeah a remembered relationship

(01:15:57):
and for haggard the power overis it?
It's the goal.

Speaker 2 (01:16:04):
The power over.
Yeah, wow, and that feels verygendered as well.
I completely agree.

Speaker 1 (01:16:12):
I don't know that it is bioessentially gendered.
It's certainly gendered in theway that our culture has kind of
, yes, culturally genderedCompletely agree.
I completely agree.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
And some of that also has to do with the fact that
you know we remember men.
Maybe well-behaved women rarelymake history, maybe maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:16:26):
Yeah, this is not my most effective synthesis.
I apologize, folks, and we'vebeen talking now for I know it's
been a long minute, so I'mactually going to like wrap us
up.
Anyway, it's, it's weird.
It is worth a rewatch if any ofthe, if any of what we've said
has been like well, that's weird.
I want to see that.
Please watch it.
It's.
It's actually really reallyfascinating.
It's streaming on Amazon prime,like on prime video, for if you

(01:16:50):
already have prime video, youdon't need to pay more for it.
So it is out there.
You can probably also find iton YouTube, maybe because it is
as old as it is.
So I definitely, I definitelyrecommend checking it out and
and I know I miss stuff becausethis is so deep, so please share
your deep thoughts about mydeep thoughts, if you're a
slightly older Gen X than we are, or someone who has looked at

(01:17:13):
this more recently like what didwe miss?
What did we get wrong?
What else is out there?
What did we say that you hadn'tthought of?
We would really?

Speaker 2 (01:17:20):
love to hear it.
Why did you love the movie orwhy did you remember it from
childhood?

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Yeah, please let us know so you can reach us.
You actually can send us a textmessage from wherever you're
listening.
If you're listening on one ofthe podcasting platforms, you
can email us at guygirlsmedia,at gmailcom, or you can find us
on Facebook at facebookcom.
Slash D-T-A-S-S podcast.
D-t-a-s-s podcast.

(01:17:46):
Okay, next time, em, it's yourturn to bring some deep thoughts
.
So what are we going to betalking about?

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
So we're going to go from unicorns to dinosaurs.
So I'm bringing you my deepthoughts about Jurassic Park.

Speaker 1 (01:17:59):
Ooh, all right, can't wait, it's going to be fun.
Ooh, all right, can't wait,it's going to be fun.
See you next time.
See you then.
Do you like stickers?
Sure, we all do.
If you head over toguygirlsmediacom slash, sign up
and share your address with us,we'll send you a sticker.
It really is that easy.
But don't wait, there's alimited quantity.

(01:18:20):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
Incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Until next time, remember, popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?

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