Though it's now consistently named #1 on IMDB's top 250 list of classic movies, Frank Darabont's 1994 film The Shawshank Redemption started out as a commercial flop with no pop culture cache. It's understandable why Shawshank struggled to find its audience: there's no romance or women, the storytelling is slow with anything resembling action occurring in the final 30 minutes, and nearly the entire film takes place within the walls of a prison. But just as the story takes its time to explore the psychology of Andy Dufresne, the innocent banker who refuses to let the brutality of prison break his spirit, the film itself took its time to find that audiences appreciated its message of hope, resilience, and redemption.
In this episode, Emily never once utters the phrase "shenanigans ensue" about this gorgeous film. She and Tracie unpack the cognitive dissonance of this film topping Americans' list of favorites even while our country's prison system continues to institutionalize men like Red, Brooks, and Andy and discuss the Christian allegories within the film that they may have missed, as nice Jewish girls. The sisters also discuss the rarity of watching male friendship on screen and how Andy's view of money resonated with Emily even before she became a financial writer.
I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy listening on your headphones or get busy listening on your bluetooth speaker.
Content warning: Discussion of sexual assault and physical and emotional abuse
Mentioned in this episode:
Why ‘The Shawshank Redemption’ is the best movie about investing ever made
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We are able to say like oh, that person deserves it
.
Like so easily if we can liketrace it back to like whatever
they did to begin with and thatis, like so perfectly
encapsulated with the Americanprison system.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1994 Frank
Darabont film, the ShawshankRedemption, with my sister,
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you,let's dive in.
(01:01):
So, tracy, I'm pretty sureyou've seen this film.
I have.
Tell me what's in your headabout it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Like I have like a whole bunch of like Polaroids in
my head from this film, so likeI don't know that I actually
have a plot, but like I havePolaroid like vignettes, like I
know the guy was accused ofkilling his wife and he didn't
do it and he ends up in jail andhe's really good with money and
like cooks, the books for thewarden, which gets him special
treatment, including like hisrapist gets beaten till he's
(01:31):
paralyzed.
But also the guy who actuallydid kill his wife gets shot and
they make it look like he'strying to escape so the warden
can keep him and he gets outwith his rock cutting thing
that's inside the Bible and he'sfriends with what's his name,
Morgan Freeman.
(01:51):
And this sounds like a feverdream the way you're describing
it.
Totally, that's how it is in myhead.
And the warden discovers he'sescaped when he throws one of
the little figurines he's carvedout of stone through a poster
of Raquel Welsh that's coveringthe hole, oh, and he gets out
(02:12):
through a shit tunnel.
So that's what I remember aboutShawshank Redemption.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
What's special about ShawshankRedemption?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So this is a film that's really beloved.
If it's not number one, it'sconsistently in the top five on
IMDb, which is likeuser-generated, like most
favorite movies of all time mostfavorite movies of all time.
It's a little film that could.
It was a critical darling whenit came out, but it did not make
(02:49):
back how much the studio putinto it.
It made $16 million at the boxoffice when it came out in 1994,
which I don't remember how muchthey spent on it, but it was
not a huge amount of money.
I mean talking millions.
It's a lot to us but not forstudios.
It was something like theyspent $25 million and they made
$16.
So it was a flop and there werea couple of reasons for that
(03:11):
One.
They didn't know how to marketit.
It is a very slow-moving movie.
There are pretty much no womenin it.
The story takes place over 20years.
There are no car chases.
There are, like it's acharacter study.
Basically.
The title is, admittedly,baffling and hard to say.
I remember it came on TV when Iwas in France, while I was
(03:34):
living with a host mother, and Iwas so excited I was like, oh,
the Shawshank Redemption.
And she was like thesh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh.
And she spoke English very well, but she was like, and I was
trying to explain it to her andshe was just like baffled.
So there's that Also, likemovies with the word redemption
(03:55):
in it, just they don't soundlike a great Saturday night.
So there's a number of reasonswhy it just didn't.
And then movies set in prisonwere not box office gold.
And then movies set in prisonwere not box office gold, but it
made its money and its legacythrough word of mouth and VHS
tapes and also through the sensethat people discovered it, and
(04:19):
so that is how it became thisenormous phenomenon.
I am not certain, but I thinkthat the way that I saw it for
the first time was my highschool boyfriend introduced me
to it.
I think that's how I saw it forthe first time, and I didn't
see it from the beginning.
I think I went over to hishouse it was on.
He was like, oh, haven't youseen this?
And we watched it.
(04:40):
Now, why I'm bringing it todayis because I write for Fast
Company.
I have a fantastic editor and Ilike to occasionally write
about pop culture, financialstuff, and so I was thinking
about how the main character inthis, andy Dufresne, was a
banker before he was falselyaccused and convicted of the
(05:03):
murder of his wife and her lover, and he's quite good with money
and how actually the film boththe story of the film and the
meta-story of how the filmbecame this phenomenon are an
excellent allegory for investing, and so I wrote an article
about how Shawshank is thisincredible story of how to be a
(05:24):
good investor.
So that's why I was thinkingabout it right now.
But I also was thinking in thisparticular time where we are
right now in the world, becauseone of the things that Andy says
to Red that's Morgan Freeman'scharacter hope is a good thing,
maybe the best thing, and goodthings never die, and it is
(05:49):
something that I need right nowin this time in the world.
So I was really interested inrevisiting this film that I have
loved since the first time Isaw it, and you know it was just
.
It's a lovely, lovely film thatI actually this is another
example of.
So the film is based on aStephen King novella called Rita
(06:12):
Hayworth and the ShawshankRedemption.
That is a very nice novella.
Frank Darabont improved on it.
It is one of three stories thatFrank Darabont has adapted to
film from Stephen King, and Iknow that Darabont has improved
at least one other.
The other one that I know thathe improved was the Mist, which
(06:33):
he improved it by making itbleak instead of hopeful,
although the original StephenKing in this was also hopeful.
But we'll get to theimprovement.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Wait, he made it bleak instead of the mist.
Oh, oh, oh.
But you're saying that theShawshank was hopeful in the
King.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, yeah, shawshank was already hopeful, but he
improved the plot greatly.
All right, I'll get to that.
I'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Why don't you remind me of the plot?
That's not just my fever dreammemory.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Why don't you remind me of the plot?
That's not just my favoritedream memory of a district
attorney basically describingthe night of a horrible crime.
We learn that Dufresne's wifehad said that she's glad that he
knows she's really unhappy withthe sneaking around, that she
is leaving him for the golf prowhose name is Mr Quentin and she
packed a bag and left to gostay with Mr Quentin, and that
Andy Dufresne had gone toseveral bars and gotten drunk
(07:49):
and then he had taken a gun andgone to Mr Quentin's house.
In the courtroom scene the DAasked well, what had you planned
to do?
And he said I don't really know, maybe just scare them.
And we see that he got out ofthe car, he dropped his bottle
of whiskey that he'd beendrinking.
And we see that he got out ofthe car, he dropped his bottle
of whiskey that he'd beendrinking and then a couple of
bullets dropped as well.
(08:09):
And then we see him beingsentenced.
Andy at one point says like Ithrew the gun into the river.
And the DA says they tried tofind the gun in the river and
couldn't.
Don't you find that convenient?
And he is sentenced to two lifesentences.
And the judge says you're acold character and it chills me
to the bone to see you At thatpoint.
(08:31):
We never see things from Andy'spoint of view again.
We then go to within the wallsof the Shawshank prison this is
all taking place in Maine and wesee a parole board interviewing
Ellis Boyd Redding, played byMorgan Freeman, and Andy
Dufresne is played by TimRobbins.
He is in front of the paroleboard.
(08:52):
He has served 20 years of alife sentence and they ask if he
has been rehabilitated and hegoes oh, yes, sir, yes, sir, of
course, and tries to tell themwhat they want to hear.
And we see that they stamprejected on his form.
And in the prison yardafterwards he is talking to some
of the other guys and they'relike yeah, them's the breaks.
(09:13):
I'm scheduled to be rejectednext week.
Hey, I got rejected last week.
And they see the bus coming into bring the new inmates and
they are betting with each otherover who is going to cry first
that night.
And Red bets on Andy andthrough the voiceover Red talks
about like it's probably not agreat thing to be betting on who
(09:37):
cries the first night, but it'ssomething to do.
And he bets on Andy because helooked like a stiff breeze would
have blown him over and hedidn't think much of him when he
first saw him.
Andy does not cry the firstnight.
Another man does.
He's an overweight man and oneof Red's friends, haywood, bets
on him.
He cries to the point where itbrings Captain Hadley who is the
(10:03):
captain of the guards.
It brings Captain Hadley, whois the captain of the guards,
who is a cruel, sadistic man whobeats him, beats the fat man,
and leaves him in the center ofthe cells.
The next morning the rest ofthe inmates pay up to Haywood
who is in a great mood becausehe's won the bet, and so he asks
(10:24):
another inmate who is workingthe infirmary, like how's my
horse, you know?
Because that inmate says dead.
They left him overnight by thetime the doctor came in.
Because the doctor had alreadyleft by the time he came in this
morning.
There was nothing anybody coulddo.
And Haywood feels guilty and islashing out.
And Andy asks what was his name?
(10:45):
You know and nobody knows andHeywood like lashes out at him.
We meet a few other inmates,including Brooks who is a very
old man.
Andy at the meal finds like agrub in his food and like pulls
it out, grub in his food andlike, pulls it out, and Brooks
says to him are you going to eatthat?
(11:06):
And Andy says I wasn't planningon it and he's like do you mind
?
Brooks takes it and goes ah,nice and juicy.
And Andy's like what are youdoing?
Brooks opens up his.
He's wearing a sweater andinside of it there's like a baby
bird and he feeds it to thebaby bird and brooks says he
(11:27):
fell out of his nest over by theplate factory.
I'm gonna hold on to him andtake care of him until he can.
He's able to fly on his own andhe's named him jake and he's a
crow.
So there is kindness within thewalls of shawshank.
We meet the warden.
His name is Warden Norton andNorton is a hypocrite we learned
(11:47):
very early on.
He says put your faith in theLord.
Your ass belongs to me.
You will not take the Lord'sname in vain in here.
But it's clear that he looksthe other way when it comes to
the captain beating up theinmates, when it comes to the
inmates abusing each other, thatsort of thing.
(12:07):
The first two years are veryrough on Andy.
He comes to the attention of agroup known as the Sisters, led
by Boggs.
Red warns him about them.
He says they've taken aninterest in you.
And Andy says would it help ifI tell them I'm not a homosexual
?
And Red says neither are they.
You'd have to be human first,which I think is a very
(12:29):
interesting line for 1994.
And he says bull queer, theytake by force.
They don't know anything otherthan that, andy being cornered
by these men and Red saying over, like in voiceover.
I wish I could say Andy foughtthe good fight and fought them
(12:49):
off.
But life in Shawshank was nofairy tale.
And it talks about how, everyonce in a while, andy would show
up with fresh bruises and hewould never say who did it.
But we all knew and nothingwould happen to Boggs and his
gang.
It continued that way until1949.
(13:13):
In the spring of 1949, the roofof the license plate factory
needed to be retard and theyneeded about a dozen volunteers
to do that.
Now, red is the kind of guy whocan get things for you.
So he's got this kind of likeunderground smuggling that he
can do.
So he's got connections, and soit just so happened that he and
a few of the guys he knew gotthe job to do the tarring.
(13:35):
So it only cost them a packetof smokes each to do that.
And Red got his 20%, his usual20%.
They're tarring the roof.
When they hear Captain Hadleycomplaining that his brother
died and left him $35,000, whichI looked up and it's I think it
was like $450,000.
(13:57):
So it's in 2025 money, so it'sa significant chunk of change
he's complaining because he'sgoing to have to pay so much in
taxes and this, that and theother.
And Andy, because he was abanker on the outside, his ears
have perked up.
So he wanders over to thecaptain and his friends is like
(14:24):
I think he's about to have anaccident and almost has him over
the edge of the roof when hesays because if you trust your
wife, there's no reason youcan't keep every single penny of
that money would have figuredout, you would have known.
You know.
But like it'll cost you if youto pay a lawyer to do the
(14:50):
paperwork.
But I would do it for almostfree.
Do the paperwork, you just needto get the papers.
The only thing I'd ask is threebeers a piece for each of my
coworkers.
And so he ends up getting thebeers and from there, because
the prison was guards and wardenand all know that he is very
good with money.
They start relying on him to dofinancial stuff.
(15:12):
Now I forgot to mention priorto this he first met Red because
he had asked him, like withinthe first month or so of being
there, to acquire him a rockhammer, which is it's like a, he
said like a small pickaxe thatyou use for carving rocks,
because he was a rock hound onthe outside and he wants to
continue that hobby on theinside as much as he can.
(15:34):
It would be contraband but hecan hide it.
It's something that Red can getfor him.
So from that he had beenworking in the laundry.
So the warden has him startworking in the library.
He doesn't say why.
He just says I'm going to haveyou be Brooks's assistant.
(15:54):
Library is in the basement andit's like all moldy Reader's
Digest, condensed books andLouis L'Amour and stuff, and so
he's like why would you need anassistant?
And then Hadley brings anotherguard down and says that's the
one and leaves and the guardsays I wanted to set up a trust
for my kid's education and soit's clear that they want
(16:16):
someone to give sound financialadvice.
So he's a pet and because theycan do that for basically free.
They allow Andy to have his ownpet project, which is he wants
to improve the library, and sohe starts.
He asks the warden for moneyfor the library.
The warden says no.
So he says, well, what if Iwrite directly to the state
(16:38):
senate and the warden saysthey're going to say no?
He's like, well, what if Iwrite them every week?
They can't ignore me forever.
And the warden says, well, yesthey can but write to them.
If it makes you happy I'll evenmail the letters for you.
And so Andy starts sending thema letter every week.
During that time we see Brooksends up getting paroled.
(16:59):
He has been there for 50 years.
He is now in his 70s.
He is upset when he getsparoled and he actually takes a
knife to Haywood to try to beallowed to stay.
And Brad explains to like the,because Andy doesn't understand
it.
He explains he's beeninstitutionalized inside here.
He's an important man, he's aneducated man.
(17:19):
Out there he's nothing.
He's been institutionalizedLike these walls.
At first you hate them and thenyou get used to them and then
they become like a kind ofsafety.
You rely on them.
So we see Brooks at this point.
It is now 1955.
He has been on the inside forhis entire life.
(17:39):
He's in a halfway house.
He gets a job bagging groceries.
He's got arthritis so his handshurt all the time.
He had seen an automobile oncewhen he was a kid and now
they're everywhere.
And so he sends a letter to theinmates saying he had to let
Jake the crow, who's all grownup, go because he can't take
care of him anymore.
You see him feeding birds,hoping that Jake maybe might
(18:00):
show up and say hi.
But he doesn't.
And so he says I decided Idon't want to stay anymore and I
doubt anyone will kick up afuss for an old crook like me.
And so in the like lonely oldroom in his halfway house he
packs his bag, he carves brookswas here in the like railing at
the top of his room and then hehangs himself and it's just
(18:23):
heartbreaking.
We see red have his 30-yearparole hearing where he says the
same thing oh yes, yes, I'vebeen rehabilitated and he's
again rejected attacks the lead,sister Boggs, so that he never
walks again and is transferredto a minimum security hospital.
(18:51):
And no one ever touches Andyagain.
Around the same time that Brooksdies, warden Norton starts an
initiative called the Inside Outprogram where he has his
inmates doing work for all kindsof programs like building
highways, fixing infrastructure,building buildings and things
(19:15):
like that.
But it's all a grift, they'rebasically slave labor.
So because he can undercut anybid, he receives kickbacks from
companies so that they can getthe bids.
We see one person saying likeI'm going to go under if I don't
get this contract and so givinghim a bribe.
And so Andy is the one doingall of this, getting all of this
(19:40):
dirty money and then launderingit.
Andy's explaining to Red thathe has created a false persona
named Randall Stevens, who isthe one behind all of that, so
that he can launder the money,so it will never come back to
either Norton or Andy, so thatthere's no real person to blame.
And Andy says because he knowsthe system, he knows the cracks
(20:02):
in the system.
So Randall Stevens has a birthcertificate, a social security
card, a driver's license and allof that, and he's got the bank
accounts in a dozen differentbanks all over Portland and so
he's the one that you can blameand so he's the one handling all
that.
And Andy says you know, I wasan honest man on the outside.
(20:23):
I had to come to prison tobecome a crook.
And Red says do you want to bedoing this?
He says, well, because I dothis, I'm allowed to take care
of the library because it workshim sending these letters.
He sends one a week and aftersix years they sent him a box of
remaindered books from thelibrary and $200.
So he starts sending two a weekuntil they realize he's not
(20:47):
going away.
And they send $500 a year andthey have the best prison
library in New England that theymake the Brooks Hatland
Memorial Library.
After Dear Brooks, tommyWilliams comes in for a two-year
(21:10):
stint for breaking and enteringAndy, takes him under his wing
because he'd never gotten hishigh school diploma to help him
get his GED.
And at that point Andy haslearned not to talk about what
brought him there becauseeveryone claims they're innocent
.
And so he says what everybodysays I'm innocent, lawyer fucked
me.
And so it's after Tommy hastaken the GED and is certain
he's failed it and is reallyangry and feels like he's let
(21:32):
Andy down, that he's talking toRed and says what brought him
here, why is he here?
And Tommy has been in prisonsall throughout New England Like
he's just kind of ane'er-do-well fuck up.
And Red tells him what happenedand Tommy goes white and he
says he had a cellmate whobragged about having killed a
(21:57):
man and the tasty bitch he wassleeping with and that some
banker got fingered for it andwent to prison for it.
So Andy goes to the warden totell him like we can reopen my
case.
The warden at first says likeoh, it's clear, this young man
looks up to you and you know I'msorry, you're taken in by it.
(22:18):
And Andy is like are youkidding?
No, there's going to be records.
There's enough that we canreopen my case.
And then the warden continuesto kind of kindly put it down
until Andy calls him obtuse andthen says you can be assured, I
will never say anything aboutwhat goes on in here.
(22:39):
And then the warden puts him insolitary for a full month While
he is in solitary.
And while he is in solitary thewarden asks to speak to Tommy
alone outside and says like Ineed to be sure that I'm making
the right decision here.
Are you telling the truth aboutwhat you heard from?
That cellmate Would up andgives a signal and the captain
(22:59):
shoots Tommy.
And so the warden then comesdown to where Andy is in
solitary and says it's a shame,he only had a year to go, young
(23:20):
man like that.
And Andy says it all stops, I'mnot helping you anymore.
He's like, oh, nothing stops,you're going to be gone from
that one bunk.
Hilton.
I'm going to cast you down withthe sodomites.
You're going to think you'vebeen fucked by a train.
You're going to continue.
Yeah, it's ugly, it's all goingto continue and everything
continues.
And that library you built.
We're going to have a bookbonfire.
(23:41):
We're going to see it all theway in Portland, all the books
being burned.
And then he says give himanother month to think about it.
So he has two full months insolitary.
When he gets out, he and Redtalk.
Andy says I killed my wife.
I didn't pull the trigger, butshe always said I was a hard man
to know God.
I loved her, but I didn't knowhow to show her and so I pushed
(24:03):
her away and that's why she died.
And Red said that you didn'tkill her, like you were a bad
husband maybe, but that didn'tmean you killed her.
And so Andy says to Red whenyou get out of here, I want you
to go to this hayfield in Buxton.
There's a tree there andthere's a rock wall.
You're going to find a rockthat has no business being in a
(24:25):
main hayfield Underneath of that.
There's something there that Ileft for you.
And then he tells him aboutthis town in Mexico called
Zuantaneo.
It's right on the Pacific Ocean.
The Mexicans say that thePacific has no memory.
That's where I want to spendthe rest of my life.
Red's concerned because he'slike I've never seen Andy like
this.
And Haywood says like, ohgoodness, like he asked for a
(24:49):
length of rope today and they'reworried that he's going to be
like Brooks.
We see him doing the work forthe warden, like he always did,
you know, like three depositstonight putting things in the
safe, like he always did.
And so we see Red saying likeI've spent some long nights in
stir that was the longest one Iever spent because I didn't know
what was going on with Andy.
The next morning they do, youknow, the check for everyone,
(25:14):
and Andy doesn't come out of hiscell.
And so guard comes in and goesholy mother of God, and we still
don't know what's going on.
And then we find out he'smissing, he's not in his cell,
so at least he's not dead.
And the warden is like he hadasked Andy to shine his shoes.
And he goes to put them on thenext morning and it's Andy's
(25:36):
shoes.
And we find out that Andy hadtunneled through his wall over
19 years with that rock hammerand had covered it up with the
poster of Rita Hayworth, whichthen became Marilyn Monroe,
which finally had become RaquelWelch, and learn that over time
Andy had put together all ofthese different things so he had
(25:59):
stolen the suit from the warden.
He had stolen the ledger withall of the information and had
switched it with the Bible,because the warden gave everyone
a Bible at the beginning andthe Bible is where he had been
hiding his rock hammer.
Salvation did lie within, yes,and we have that wonderful scene
(26:20):
of when he gets out, when hehas crawled through the sewage
pipe, and gets out and is in therain and is with his face up to
the rain, and then the nextmorning he stops at every single
bank where Randall Stevens hadan account and withdraws the
money from the account becausehe has the Social Security card,
(26:43):
randall Stevens' SocialSecurity number, and the license
and the signature is a perfectmatch, right.
So he left town with $370,000of the warden's ill-gotten gains
, which in 1966, which is in2025, it was about $3.7 million.
(27:04):
And then at the first bank, wesee the banker say is there
anything else we can do for you?
And he says could you put thisin your outgoing mail for me?
And it is the ledger.
And he mails it to the Portlandnewspaper.
And so we see the DA arrestingthe Captain Hadley, the captain
(27:26):
of the guard, and then coming toarrest the warden.
The warden wasn't going to goquietly.
He has a gun, he has it aimedat the door and as they're
knocking on the door they saidcome on, warden, make it easy on
yourself.
And he like looks, and then hepoints it at his chin and kills
himself.
And Red's voiceover says I'dlike to think the last thing
(27:47):
that went through the warden'smind before the bullet was how
did Andy get him?
Best him?
So we then see Red go throughthe next year, because it's one
year later, is his 40th year inprison, and his parole board.
This one is different, becausethey ask him have you been
rehabilitated?
(28:07):
He's like I don't know whatthat word means.
And they start well, it meanshe's like I know what you think
it means, but it's a bullshitword.
And he basically says like it'swhat you like, it's a reason
for you to wear a suit and tieand have a job.
And he's like well, are yousorry for what you've done?
And he's like I look back onthat kid who did that terrible
(28:29):
crime and I wish I could talk tohim.
I wish I could tell him likewhat's what, but I can't.
That boy is gone and all that'sleft is this old man.
So you know, just stamp yourstamp, because I don't have time
for this shit.
And they release him.
So we see him going through.
He basically gets the same lifethat Brooks did and we see that
(28:52):
it suits him as badly as it didBrooks.
And the only thing that keepshim from going down the same
path Brooks did is the promisehe made to Andy.
So he goes to that field and hefinds what Andy buried and it's
a tin box and in it is anenvelope full of cash and a
(29:13):
letter that says you've comethis far.
Are you willing to come alittle farther?
Do you remember this name ofthe town?
I need a man to help me,because Andy had said he wants
to get a worthless old boat andfix it up and he wants to start
a hotel.
And so Red says I'm going tobreak the law for the second
time in my life, paroleviolation this time and he says
(29:37):
and I doubt anyone's going tokick up a fuss for an old crook
like me, just like Brooke saidand we see him buying a bus
ticket and he's like I'm soexcited I can hardly sit.
Still, I can't wait to see myfriend again.
And the last moment we see isthem on the beach.
Andy is fixing up an old boatand Red approaches him, and
(29:59):
apparently this was the firstscene they filmed which worked
out well because they didn'tknow each other that well.
And so there's that hesitancyof friends who haven't seen each
other in a while, but they'reglad to see each other, and then
we see them embrace and that'sthe end of the film.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Wow, you did not say, shenanigans ensue.
There are no shenanigans thatensue.
So where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
All right, I'm going to start with dehumanization,
because I've been thinking abouthow part of what goes on with
this film is part of the storyof the American prison system
and that's part of like humannature, but we see it over and
over again in this film.
(30:44):
So, by deciding that someonewho has committed a crime is no
longer human, we are okay withwhatever happens inside the
prison system.
Okay, well, the ones who areactually innocent are like.
(31:06):
They deserve our pity and ourcompassion, you know, and like.
What's remarkable about thisfilm is that we get the.
We are given the opportunity tofeel compassion for everyone
and even though we seesympathetic characters
dehumanizing others.
So, like Heywood at the verybeginning, like the fat man who
(31:29):
cries and dies, heywood callshim fat ass and is indirectly
responsible for his death.
But we like Heywood.
Heywood's a good guy.
Heywood did something horrificbecause he's there for 20 years
at least, because he's beenthere before.
He's been there a long time.
(31:49):
He's a lifer, but he's a friendand he did something awful and
was dehumanizing.
He was not the one whosuggested that they do this, but
he was real all in on.
Like, all right, we're going tosee which of these fish cry
because that's what they callthem the new fish.
So like it's just this veryinteresting examination of how
(32:12):
complex humans are, and I feellike Andy is one of the few
characters who doesn't like,because his first question is
does anybody know his name?
And you know, I was thinkingabout the fact that Hadley beats
up Boggs once.
It's clear that Andy is usefuland it's not a kindness, this is
(32:34):
not to protect Andy because helikes him, it's because Andy's
useful and we don't want to hurtthat brain, right?
(33:10):
You?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
know it's interesting too, though, like so you're
pointing to the fact that Andyis like one of the few
characters who maybe doesn'thave that both and.
But it's interesting becauseI'm not sure at least based on
the way you just described theplot, I'm not sure that it in a
first viewing that he could beguilty of killing his wife and
her lover.
So it's true that in retrospecthe's sort of like a stand-up
guy all the way around, exceptfor the money laundering, but we
don't know that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And he did for complex characters.
He did get drunk and take a gunto, I mean, that's to the guy's
house where his wife was Right.
And last night, as I waswatching it, I had this thought
that like where's his grief overhis wife?
And then I was thinking likewell, she said he's a hard man
to know and like throughout heplays everything close to his
(33:44):
vest.
So like just because we don'tsee his grief for his wife
doesn't mean he's not feeling it.
So I was thinking about thatdehumanization, in part because
right near our house there is anew billboard up that says
imagine going to a musicfestival and never coming home
(34:06):
and it's in reference to theOctober 7th attacks in 2023 in
Israel, and because I see somany signs that are
pro-Palestinian in a way that isworrisome that it is worrisome
because it is like erasing,dehumanizing Israelis.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, it's dehumanizing Israelis and
erasing the agency of.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Palestinians, so it ends up dehumanizing israeli,
dehumanizing israeli and erasingthe agency of palestinians that
, so it ends up dehumanizingpalestinians as well.
Exactly, I was thinking aboutthat as I drove past it this
morning and about how, like, how, we are able to say like, oh,
that person deserves it, like soeasily if we can like trace it
back to like whatever they didto begin with and that is like
(34:49):
so perfectly encapsulated withthe American prison system.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And then, especially when it comes to like prison
rape is a joke so commonly inAmerican culture, yeah, I was
just thinking that that Red saysyou have to be human first to
be homosexual, which is aninteresting like in your in this
, this specific thread thatyou're pulling on about
dehumanization.
(35:16):
Wow, I'm not sure where to gowith that.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, it's a, it's a moment that I'm glad was in a
1994 movie, in a moment that wastaking place in 1947.
Yeah, because it could soeasily have just been homophobic
.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Right, but instead it actually divorced homosexuality
from the sadism.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yes, yeah, it was making it clear like they're not
doing this because they're gay.
Yeah, this is not about sexualpleasure.
This is about deviance in termsof, like, sadism in terms of
power, yeah, yeah, and they areno different from Ward and
Norton and Hadley, Right?
(36:02):
So that, like I, just I find itreally fascinating, Right, so
so that, that, like I, just Ifind it really fascinating, and
what is like really lighting upfor me is like the fact that
this is such a beloved movie forAmericans when we have such a
problem with our prison system.
Like, yeah, Talk about both.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I mean.
In some ways it makes sense,though, because it allows us to
feel like we're doing the rightthing, because, like, oh, but I
love Shasha.
Yeah Right, I feel the same wayabout To Kill a Mockingbird.
You know like people can loveTo Kill a Mockingbird without
doing anything at all to fix thebias in the so-called justice
system.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And that actually, that brings me a little bit to I
hadn't seen it and it's because, like, we're nice Jewish girls
but people see Andy as a Christfigure, which once it was
pointed out to me I was like, ohyeah, of course they do.
And even the way he stands inthe rain I'm like, oh yeah, yeah
, like death and resurrection.
Okay, okay, I gotcha.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, because they think he's dead.
They think he's dead when themorning, but the cave is empty.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Uh-huh, yeah.
And even like there's a removalof the rock.
There's even like there was asuggestion that the moment with
the beers is like the LastSupper, which I was like I'm not
following you here, but okay,because he didn't partake, I
don't know, I don't like it.
Okay, he has disciples and likehe is without sin, unlike the
(37:35):
rest of his disciples, unlikethe rest of us.
There is the moment where heplays the opera, which everyone
stops and listens, and itactually we see men in the
infirmary rise from their beds.
So he like actually even healsthe sick.
So like I think that's allright on, I definitely see that,
although Darabont makes itclear that he did not mean it
(37:56):
that way, and I think TimRobbins is atheist and is just
like yeah, nah.
So I think that goes to howAmericans can love this film and
not necessarily hate it, seethe irony and the hypocrisy of
(38:17):
it being an indictment of ourprison, an indictment of our
prison system, and still lovethis movie and not do anything
about it.
Yeah.
And then there's also the factthat we never learn any
backstory of the horrible crimesthat any of these characters
committed, with the exception ofTommy, who he's a petty, petty
crook like was there forbreaking and entering.
(38:39):
It's all like small time crime,so breaking and entering.
He stole a car, like it's abunch of little things that he's
done, like a little bit of timefor every time.
And so the film is set up in away where we can see the
humanness of these men, withoutknowing the monstrousness that
they are also capable of, whileshowing us the monstrousness
that they are also capable of,while showing us the
(39:00):
monstrousness, the mundanemonstrosity, of the warden and
the guards Right, which that'spart of what makes it an
effective film.
But at the same time, everysingle man and woman who is
serving time is also human, nomatter what they have done Right
(39:23):
, and they are just as capableof salvation and redemption as
Red and Haywood and Brooks.
So it's a both end.
It's a both end.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
So I want to talk about money.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, let's talk about money.
I mean, it's you, it's me.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
So one of the things that, like this movie, always
appealed to me, in part becausemoney's a tool for Andy and I
actually I suspect that StephenKing, just based on a couple of
the things that I've read abouthim I've read of his that he
doesn't necessarily look atmoney the way that I do, but
just the way that he was raisedand a couple other things I
think he looks at money as atool, sort of the way that I do,
because I really appreciatedthat for Andy, money wasn't just
(40:11):
his job as a banker, like that,it wasn't just what he did on
the outside While he waslistening to the guard
complaining about thisinheritance, like the rest of
Haywood and Red were like, yeah,poor Hadley, it's got to be
rough, it's got to be rough it'sgot to be rough.
You know, $35,000 falling inyour lap.
(40:33):
Andy didn't just hear that andgo meh, meh, meh, meh and go,
which is a natural reaction.
He is like already two, threesteps ahead, going like I know
what is going on with that, Iknow how to help him, I know how
helping him could help me and Iknow I can take a calculated
(40:55):
risk right now by approachinghim, because approaching him is
risky.
I mean he could have, if he hadnot timed it right, killed him.
He could have ended.
Who think about money that way,think about money that way,
(41:22):
people who tend to have thatnature Also.
The other thing I appreciateabout Andy as a character is
that he thinks about letter aweek to the state Senate.
He recognizes that hispunishment is time, but that
(41:44):
also means that he has a benefit, a currency.
Yeah, he has a currency thatthe people on the outside don't
Right.
He has a currency to trade inthat they just don't have yeah
because he has the time to writea letter every week and be a
nuisance, Whereas they got kidsto pick up from daycare.
They have bills to pay, theyhave shit to do that he's going
(42:07):
to be a pain in their ass.
He has the time.
He has the time to be a pain intheir ass and, like other
inmates, are not able to seetime as a currency that way,
Like other inmates are not ableto see time as currency that way
.
Now you do hear about like it'svery common to hear about
inmates becoming like, reallybuff because they use the time
currency to exercise and stufflike that.
(42:27):
Right, that's a lot more common.
But using time currency to geta different kind of goal less
common.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And to agitate for the outside.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, I feel like we also hear about a lot of inmates
who read a lot and and actuallydo, yeah, or they'll educate
themselves and stuff like that.
But agitating for the outside,using that time currency to
affect others outside you'llhear about inmates who become
like experts in their own caseand that sort of thing.
Yeah, but he's agitating forthe outside to improve other
people's lives, not his own.
(43:01):
On the inside, yeah, on theinside, yeah, I just find that
fascinating, and I feel likethat goes hand in hand with that
understanding of money as atool.
There's a couple other things Iwant to talk about.
I know we're running low ontime, but the other thing that I
think think is lovely aboutthis movie is it shows male
friendship in a way that is veryunusual, because these are two
male friends who are notengaging in a car chase, trying
(43:24):
to defuse a bomb, fighting overa woman like trying to save a
MacGuffin.
They are just spending timetogether and talking Like they
play checkers.
Andy offers to teach Red chess.
They're talking philosophy,they're telling jokes.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's an intellectual and emotional intimacy.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes, and you don't ever see that it's beautiful.
And like you saw me tearing upwhen I was saying, when they
meet at the end, like Red talksabout after Andy is gone before
his parole, how much he misseshis friend and how excited he is
to see his friend when he's onhis way to Zoetaneo, and
(44:06):
recognizing like Hollywood neverrecognizes the importance of
that kind of intimacy, like inHollywood we get to see romantic
intimacy and we get to seeparent to child intimacy.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
That's pretty much it For the most part.
Yeah, well, it's sort of slowstorytelling.
Yes, like to really convey it.
Well, it's slow and that's notthe way that Americans have been
taught to expect theirentertainment.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yes, and that is part of like.
This movie breaks a lot ofrules.
It's a two-hour and 20-minutemovie.
It's a long movie.
It's a long movie.
It takes place over 19 years.
Actually, it takes place over20 years, come to think of it,
1947 to 1967.
And it doesn't have like atraditional narrative arc.
(44:55):
It's kind of a series ofvignettes.
The action really is in thelike last, I don't know third of
the film.
It's a character study.
It's hard to say is.
I tend to think that storieswith a narrator, even if the
narrator is like focusing on onecharacter and that character is
(45:16):
supposedly the main character,I think that it's about the
narrator is like focusing on onecharacter and that character is
supposedly the main character.
I think that it's about thenarrator.
I tend to think that becauseRed is the one who has a real
arc, like he's the one we seechange from that first parole
board hearing to the end.
He goes from being very cynicalto accepting Andy's view of
hope and Andy doesn't actuallychange much.
(45:39):
No, now he does accept somesort of responsibility for his
role in his wife's death.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Right, even that we're, I think we're meant to
question.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
But he is quietly working to just maintain the
hopeful, forward-looking, stillwarm self that he is Right and
this is not the life he chose.
But he will work to be who heis in the circumstances that he
(46:18):
finds himself in.
That, I think, is reallyfascinating.
Another aspect that I think islovely is that this is very much
a pushback against toxicmasculinity, because Andy is
very he's just like a kind ofwarm, positive masculine
character.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, and the men who exhibit toxic masculinity.
All are villains.
Yes, right, the captain and thewarden and some of the other
inmates?
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Absolutely Well, and even I mean even Boggs, I mean
like he is quote unquote queer,he's queer, but the way he takes
by force is certainly toxicmasculinity.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, so before we hit record, you told me a couple
of things you want to talkabout.
We are already over time, butone of the things that you said
that I would love to hear youactually get into is the ways in
which this film may be that itwas maybe an unintentional
tribute to the power of cinema.
So tell me more about what youmeant by that.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
So there are a couple of times where it's clear that
film gives the inmates anopportunity to kind of escape.
So when Andy asks Red for theposter of Rita Hayworth, the
prison is screening a film of Ithink it's Some Like it Hot, but
no, that's not it.
They're screening of RitaHayworth.
The prison is screening a filmof.
I think it's Some Like it Hot,but no, that's not it.
They're screening a RitaHayworth film.
(47:42):
It's the one with Gilda, Ithink it's Gilda is the name of
it, anyway.
And so Andy comes to find Redand he's like hey, red.
And he's like hold on a second.
I just want to see this part.
I love this when she does theshit with the hair, where she
does the flip with the hairthat's so famous.
And apparently there was adifferent movie they were
planning on doing.
And that's part of the point isthat it doesn't really matter
(48:03):
what movie it was, because for amoment these men could escape
where they were and just seethat film.
And Red says that and Andy saysoh yeah, I know, I've seen it
three times this month.
So he asks Red, can you get meher?
And Andy says oh yeah, I know,I've seen it three times this
month.
So he asks Red, can you get meher?
And Red says yeah, but it'lltake me a couple of weeks.
(48:24):
And Andy goes a couple of weeks.
He's like yeah, I don't haveher stuff down the front of my
pants and at the time it's notclear what they're talking about
, but it's the poster.
As Andy leaves, boggs attackshim and then goes into the room
where the film is, like the filmcanisters are, and the guy
who's the inmate, who's manningit, says like I got to change
(48:45):
the film.
And Boggs and his friends arelike beat it, get out of here.
So Andy grabs one of the filmreels and like hits them with it
.
Reels and like hits them withit.
And so the analysis I wasreading was saying like not only
(49:08):
is the actual like film thatthey're watching an escape, but
Andy is using the physical filmto protect himself.
So there's that aspect of it.
So it's like a tribute.
That's an interesting metaphor.
Yeah, it's an interestingmetaphor.
And then the fact that you knowit's like a camera lens and so,
(49:42):
again, there's this kind of like, it's this tribute to the power
of cinema to provide an escape,a sense of story and hope, and
so I just I found, found thatreally fascinating, and that's
with Frank Darabont's oeuvre, hethat seems like something that
(50:02):
he has revisited, notnecessarily intentionally, and
all filmmakers are film lovers,you know like so it's, of course
.
And in the same way that, like,writers write about writers and
bookstores and libraries andstuff, and there are all these
TV shows about TV shows, yeah,exactly.
But once that was pointed outto me I was just like, oh yeah,
I see that, I can see that.
(50:23):
And even the moment with themusic all over where all of the
inmates are listening, that'snot film, but it's the tribute
to the power of art to upliftand provide freedom in any
circumstance, it's just lovely,it's just lovely, cool, all
(50:45):
right, is there anything elsethat you wanted to make sure
that you said before?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I see if I can reflect back to you your
analysis here.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Just this is.
This reiterates what I'vetalked about a couple of other
times, where it's if you makesomething that you believe in
and you make it the best thatyou can, it will find its
audience.
Randall Stevens was completelymade up by Andy Dufresne.
(51:18):
There was no grift from thewarden.
There were several differentwardens and so the money was all
Dufresne's and so had nothingto do with the prison, and so
just a lot less satisfying ifAndy's getting one over on the
(51:39):
people who abused him for 20years.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, okay, so let me see if I can reflect back to
you some of the things that youtalked about.
So I'm going to actually startwith the fact that, like we're
over time on this, because thisis like a long story, and part
of the reason it's a long storyis because it's a story about
intellectual and emotionalintimacy, which is not something
that happened.
You don't say shenanigans ensuewhen you're talking about
intellectual and emotionalintimacy and therefore it's
(52:02):
actually not a story that we getvery often in Hollywood.
It is not the way thatAmericans have been taught to
expect their entertainment, andso there's something really
refreshing and beautiful aboutthis, that kind of intimacy in
general.
You pointed out the fact thatthe only intimacy we really get
out of Hollywood is romanticintimacy or parent-child
intimacy, and so this intimacybetween two friends, which is
(52:24):
not at all romantic or sexual,is unusual and really lovely and
had you tearing up when youwere thinking about it, and also
requires a lot of screen timein order to actually believe it.
So, because intimacy is builtthrough trust and time, so it's
also the case that you have someresonance with this film.
(52:47):
You just wrote that you I don'tknow if just you wrote an
article about sort of this filmas like a power of investing,
and you notice that maybeStephen King thinks about money
in somewhat similar ways thatyou do, insofar as money is a
tool and so there's lessemotionality around it.
I think is what you're gettingat with that.
Certainly, andy doesn't haveemotionality around money.
(53:10):
It is a tool, it is a mechanismthrough which he can get other
things, and telling other peoplehow to do it activates their
emotions, which makes him useful.
And you noted that he alsotreats time as a currency when
he's on the inside in similarways, in ways that other folks
give up because they getemotional about the continued
(53:33):
effort over the time, whereas hejust keeps on going and it pays
off.
So we spent actuallyconsiderable amount of time
talking about dehumanization andthe ways in which this film
sort of really holds a both andwhere we see sympathetic
characters dehumanize oneanother, but we still are meant
(53:53):
to sympathize with them.
There's also this deep irony andhypocrisy in this beloved film,
which is in many ways could beseen as an indictment of the
American prison system, butwhich has led to seemingly
unchanged attitudes among thispopulation who loves it, about
(54:15):
the prison system, and themethod of the storytelling sort
of somehow contributes to that,insofar as, like the authority
in the prison system are allvillains and total hypocrites
and we see their monstrosity.
We don't see the actual crimesof most of our inmates, but we
(54:36):
know that they're there.
And you pointed out the fact.
There's a sort of a Christianallegory, potentially with Andy
as a Christ figure.
He has no sin, unlike the restof us, although I pointed out
the fact that the both and isthere, at least on first viewing
with Andy, because we don'tknow for certain that he didn't
kill his wife and her loveruntil two thirdsthirds of the
(54:58):
way through the movie orwhatever.
So there's a very interestingkind of both and around all of
the characters, all of thesympathetic characters at least,
and even maybe some of thevillains.
And regarding dehumanization,there's also that interesting
moment where Red MorganFreeman's character says of the
(55:21):
refreshing, because I think itwould have been easy to go down
the route of demonizing thehomosexuality, which does not
(55:46):
happen, which I think is reallyimportant and positive, and I'm
glad that it's there in 1994,set in 1949.
That feels like really good andimportant, let's see.
You also talked about the waysin which this film what we
talked at the end about the waysin which it is a tribute to the
(56:08):
power of art in general andcinema in particular there are
specific moments where we seethe inmates actually sort of
escape metaphorically throughfilm.
There's also sort of metaphorswhere Andy uses the actual
physical film reel canister toprotect himself and like the way
that shots are framed to makeit sort of look like various
(56:30):
cinematic moments.
That feels a bit like a tribute.
A bit like a tribute.
I think you also named the factthat like this film sort of
breaks some storytelling rules,in part through what I already
said about there are noshenanigans and as a result,
like it was hard to market thename maybe as confusing, and so
it was technically a flop at thebox office.
(56:53):
But you pointed out thatbecause the filmmaker sort of
believed in what he was doingand really like produced a solid
product and a good story thathad real roots, that eventually
it did find its audience and nowis, among fan assessments, one
of the most beloved Americanfilms.
So it did in fact find itsaudience.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
It's also been named by the Library of Congress as a
piece of art that is culturallysignificant, culturally,
historically significant.
So, yeah, cool, cool.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
So what did I miss?
Speaker 1 (57:25):
in my Just that it rejects toxic masculinity and it
, you know, is a clear indicatorof like if you write and create
something beautiful, you willfind your audience.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
So, yeah, you write and create something beautiful,
you will find your audience.
So, yeah, yeah, I think thelast thing I'll say is that you
pointed out the fact that thisfilm, that the filmmaker
actually improved upon theoriginal source material by sort
of tightening the storytellingso that the payoff for andy is
also a comeuppance for hisabusers.
That connection connection wasmissing in the original King
novella and I think that thatdoes like tighten it in a way
(58:01):
that makes it very satisfying.
Oh, it's so much better.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
I was so disappointed because I saw the movie first,
then read the novella and I wasso disappointed yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Yeah, well, this was a very big departure from our
last, but it was fun.
Thank you for sharing your deepthoughts on this, and so next
week, I think, we have a guestcoming, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
next week my dear childhood friend Jen
Book-Hasselsworth is bringingher deep thoughts on Hook in
particular and her lifelong loveof Peter Pan in general.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
Cool.
I'm excited to have RobinWilliams on the show again.
Always, all right.
See you then.
Until then, this show is alabor of love, but that doesn't
make it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(58:55):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
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Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(59:16):
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
We are able to say like oh, that person deserves it
.
Like so easily if we can liketrace it back to like whatever
they did to begin with and thatis, like so perfectly
encapsulated with the Americanprison system.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just pop culture,what others might deem stupid
shit?
You know matters, you knowwhat's worth talking and
thinking about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit.
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts
About Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Today, I'll be sharing my deepthoughts about the 1994 Frank
Darabont film, the ShawshankRedemption, with my sister,
tracy Guy-Decker, and with you,let's dive in.
(01:01):
So, tracy, I'm pretty sureyou've seen this film.
I have.
Tell me what's in your headabout it.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Like I have like a whole bunch of like Polaroids in
my head from this film, so likeI don't know that I actually
have a plot, but like I havePolaroid like vignettes, like I
know the guy was accused ofkilling his wife and he didn't
do it and he ends up in jail andhe's really good with money and
like cooks, the books for thewarden, which gets him special
treatment, including like hisrapist gets beaten till he's
(01:31):
paralyzed.
But also the guy who actuallydid kill his wife gets shot and
they make it look like he'strying to escape so the warden
can keep him and he gets outwith his rock cutting thing
that's inside the Bible and he'sfriends with what's his name,
Morgan Freeman.
(01:51):
And this sounds like a feverdream the way you're describing
it.
Totally, that's how it is in myhead.
And the warden discovers he'sescaped when he throws one of
the little figurines he's carvedout of stone through a poster
of Raquel Welsh that's coveringthe hole, oh, and he gets out
(02:12):
through a shit tunnel.
So that's what I remember aboutShawshank Redemption.
So why are we talking about ittoday?
What's special about ShawshankRedemption?
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So this is a film that's really beloved.
If it's not number one, it'sconsistently in the top five on
IMDb, which is likeuser-generated, like most
favorite movies of all time mostfavorite movies of all time.
It's a little film that could.
It was a critical darling whenit came out, but it did not make
(02:49):
back how much the studio putinto it.
It made $16 million at the boxoffice when it came out in 1994,
which I don't remember how muchthey spent on it, but it was
not a huge amount of money.
I mean talking millions.
It's a lot to us but not forstudios.
It was something like theyspent $25 million and they made
$16.
So it was a flop and there werea couple of reasons for that
(03:11):
One.
They didn't know how to marketit.
It is a very slow-moving movie.
There are pretty much no womenin it.
The story takes place over 20years.
There are no car chases.
There are, like it's acharacter study.
Basically.
The title is, admittedly,baffling and hard to say.
I remember it came on TV when Iwas in France, while I was
(03:34):
living with a host mother, and Iwas so excited I was like, oh,
the Shawshank Redemption.
And she was like thesh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh-sh.
And she spoke English very well, but she was like, and I was
trying to explain it to her andshe was just like baffled.
So there's that Also, likemovies with the word redemption
(03:55):
in it, just they don't soundlike a great Saturday night.
So there's a number of reasonswhy it just didn't.
And then movies set in prisonwere not box office gold.
And then movies set in prisonwere not box office gold, but it
made its money and its legacythrough word of mouth and VHS
tapes and also through the sensethat people discovered it, and
(04:19):
so that is how it became thisenormous phenomenon.
I am not certain, but I thinkthat the way that I saw it for
the first time was my highschool boyfriend introduced me
to it.
I think that's how I saw it forthe first time, and I didn't
see it from the beginning.
I think I went over to hishouse it was on.
He was like, oh, haven't youseen this?
And we watched it.
(04:40):
Now, why I'm bringing it todayis because I write for Fast
Company.
I have a fantastic editor and Ilike to occasionally write
about pop culture, financialstuff, and so I was thinking
about how the main character inthis, andy Dufresne, was a
banker before he was falselyaccused and convicted of the
(05:03):
murder of his wife and her lover, and he's quite good with money
and how actually the film boththe story of the film and the
meta-story of how the filmbecame this phenomenon are an
excellent allegory for investing, and so I wrote an article
about how Shawshank is thisincredible story of how to be a
(05:24):
good investor.
So that's why I was thinkingabout it right now.
But I also was thinking in thisparticular time where we are
right now in the world, becauseone of the things that Andy says
to Red that's Morgan Freeman'scharacter hope is a good thing,
maybe the best thing, and goodthings never die, and it is
(05:49):
something that I need right nowin this time in the world.
So I was really interested inrevisiting this film that I have
loved since the first time Isaw it, and you know it was just
.
It's a lovely, lovely film thatI actually this is another
example of.
So the film is based on aStephen King novella called Rita
(06:12):
Hayworth and the ShawshankRedemption.
That is a very nice novella.
Frank Darabont improved on it.
It is one of three stories thatFrank Darabont has adapted to
film from Stephen King, and Iknow that Darabont has improved
at least one other.
The other one that I know thathe improved was the Mist, which
(06:33):
he improved it by making itbleak instead of hopeful,
although the original StephenKing in this was also hopeful.
But we'll get to theimprovement.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Wait, he made it bleak instead of the mist.
Oh, oh, oh.
But you're saying that theShawshank was hopeful in the
King.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Yeah, yeah, shawshank was already hopeful, but he
improved the plot greatly.
All right, I'll get to that.
I'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Why don't you remind me of the plot?
That's not just my fever dreammemory.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Why don't you remind me of the plot?
That's not just my favoritedream memory of a district
attorney basically describingthe night of a horrible crime.
We learn that Dufresne's wifehad said that she's glad that he
knows she's really unhappy withthe sneaking around, that she
is leaving him for the golf prowhose name is Mr Quentin and she
packed a bag and left to gostay with Mr Quentin, and that
Andy Dufresne had gone toseveral bars and gotten drunk
(07:49):
and then he had taken a gun andgone to Mr Quentin's house.
In the courtroom scene the DAasked well, what had you planned
to do?
And he said I don't really know, maybe just scare them.
And we see that he got out ofthe car, he dropped his bottle
of whiskey that he'd beendrinking.
And we see that he got out ofthe car, he dropped his bottle
of whiskey that he'd beendrinking and then a couple of
bullets dropped as well.
(08:09):
And then we see him beingsentenced.
Andy at one point says like Ithrew the gun into the river.
And the DA says they tried tofind the gun in the river and
couldn't.
Don't you find that convenient?
And he is sentenced to two lifesentences.
And the judge says you're acold character and it chills me
to the bone to see you At thatpoint.
(08:31):
We never see things from Andy'spoint of view again.
We then go to within the wallsof the Shawshank prison this is
all taking place in Maine and wesee a parole board interviewing
Ellis Boyd Redding, played byMorgan Freeman, and Andy
Dufresne is played by TimRobbins.
He is in front of the paroleboard.
(08:52):
He has served 20 years of alife sentence and they ask if he
has been rehabilitated and hegoes oh, yes, sir, yes, sir, of
course, and tries to tell themwhat they want to hear.
And we see that they stamprejected on his form.
And in the prison yardafterwards he is talking to some
of the other guys and they'relike yeah, them's the breaks.
(09:13):
I'm scheduled to be rejectednext week.
Hey, I got rejected last week.
And they see the bus coming into bring the new inmates and
they are betting with each otherover who is going to cry first
that night.
And Red bets on Andy andthrough the voiceover Red talks
about like it's probably not agreat thing to be betting on who
(09:37):
cries the first night, but it'ssomething to do.
And he bets on Andy because helooked like a stiff breeze would
have blown him over and hedidn't think much of him when he
first saw him.
Andy does not cry the firstnight.
Another man does.
He's an overweight man and oneof Red's friends, haywood, bets
on him.
He cries to the point where itbrings Captain Hadley who is the
(10:03):
captain of the guards.
It brings Captain Hadley, whois the captain of the guards,
who is a cruel, sadistic man whobeats him, beats the fat man,
and leaves him in the center ofthe cells.
The next morning the rest ofthe inmates pay up to Haywood
who is in a great mood becausehe's won the bet, and so he asks
(10:24):
another inmate who is workingthe infirmary, like how's my
horse, you know?
Because that inmate says dead.
They left him overnight by thetime the doctor came in.
Because the doctor had alreadyleft by the time he came in this
morning.
There was nothing anybody coulddo.
And Haywood feels guilty and islashing out.
And Andy asks what was his name?
(10:45):
You know and nobody knows andHeywood like lashes out at him.
We meet a few other inmates,including Brooks who is a very
old man.
Andy at the meal finds like agrub in his food and like pulls
it out, grub in his food andlike, pulls it out, and Brooks
says to him are you going to eatthat?
(11:06):
And Andy says I wasn't planningon it and he's like do you mind
?
Brooks takes it and goes ah,nice and juicy.
And Andy's like what are youdoing?
Brooks opens up his.
He's wearing a sweater andinside of it there's like a baby
bird and he feeds it to thebaby bird and brooks says he
(11:27):
fell out of his nest over by theplate factory.
I'm gonna hold on to him andtake care of him until he can.
He's able to fly on his own andhe's named him jake and he's a
crow.
So there is kindness within thewalls of shawshank.
We meet the warden.
His name is Warden Norton andNorton is a hypocrite we learned
(11:47):
very early on.
He says put your faith in theLord.
Your ass belongs to me.
You will not take the Lord'sname in vain in here.
But it's clear that he looksthe other way when it comes to
the captain beating up theinmates, when it comes to the
inmates abusing each other, thatsort of thing.
(12:07):
The first two years are veryrough on Andy.
He comes to the attention of agroup known as the Sisters, led
by Boggs.
Red warns him about them.
He says they've taken aninterest in you.
And Andy says would it help ifI tell them I'm not a homosexual
?
And Red says neither are they.
You'd have to be human first,which I think is a very
(12:29):
interesting line for 1994.
And he says bull queer, theytake by force.
They don't know anything otherthan that, andy being cornered
by these men and Red saying over, like in voiceover.
I wish I could say Andy foughtthe good fight and fought them
(12:49):
off.
But life in Shawshank was nofairy tale.
And it talks about how, everyonce in a while, andy would show
up with fresh bruises and hewould never say who did it.
But we all knew and nothingwould happen to Boggs and his
gang.
It continued that way until1949.
(13:13):
In the spring of 1949, the roofof the license plate factory
needed to be retard and theyneeded about a dozen volunteers
to do that.
Now, red is the kind of guy whocan get things for you.
So he's got this kind of likeunderground smuggling that he
can do.
So he's got connections, and soit just so happened that he and
a few of the guys he knew gotthe job to do the tarring.
(13:35):
So it only cost them a packetof smokes each to do that.
And Red got his 20%, his usual20%.
They're tarring the roof.
When they hear Captain Hadleycomplaining that his brother
died and left him $35,000, whichI looked up and it's I think it
was like $450,000.
(13:57):
So it's in 2025 money, so it'sa significant chunk of change
he's complaining because he'sgoing to have to pay so much in
taxes and this, that and theother.
And Andy, because he was abanker on the outside, his ears
have perked up.
So he wanders over to thecaptain and his friends is like
(14:24):
I think he's about to have anaccident and almost has him over
the edge of the roof when hesays because if you trust your
wife, there's no reason youcan't keep every single penny of
that money would have figuredout, you would have known.
You know.
But like it'll cost you if youto pay a lawyer to do the
(14:50):
paperwork.
But I would do it for almostfree.
Do the paperwork, you just needto get the papers.
The only thing I'd ask is threebeers a piece for each of my
coworkers.
And so he ends up getting thebeers and from there, because
the prison was guards and wardenand all know that he is very
good with money.
They start relying on him to dofinancial stuff.
(15:12):
Now I forgot to mention priorto this he first met Red because
he had asked him, like withinthe first month or so of being
there, to acquire him a rockhammer, which is it's like a, he
said like a small pickaxe thatyou use for carving rocks,
because he was a rock hound onthe outside and he wants to
continue that hobby on theinside as much as he can.
(15:34):
It would be contraband but hecan hide it.
It's something that Red can getfor him.
So from that he had beenworking in the laundry.
So the warden has him startworking in the library.
He doesn't say why.
He just says I'm going to haveyou be Brooks's assistant.
(15:54):
Library is in the basement andit's like all moldy Reader's
Digest, condensed books andLouis L'Amour and stuff, and so
he's like why would you need anassistant?
And then Hadley brings anotherguard down and says that's the
one and leaves and the guardsays I wanted to set up a trust
for my kid's education and soit's clear that they want
(16:16):
someone to give sound financialadvice.
So he's a pet and because theycan do that for basically free.
They allow Andy to have his ownpet project, which is he wants
to improve the library, and sohe starts.
He asks the warden for moneyfor the library.
The warden says no.
So he says, well, what if Iwrite directly to the state
(16:38):
senate and the warden saysthey're going to say no?
He's like, well, what if Iwrite them every week?
They can't ignore me forever.
And the warden says, well, yesthey can but write to them.
If it makes you happy I'll evenmail the letters for you.
And so Andy starts sending thema letter every week.
During that time we see Brooksends up getting paroled.
(16:59):
He has been there for 50 years.
He is now in his 70s.
He is upset when he getsparoled and he actually takes a
knife to Haywood to try to beallowed to stay.
And Brad explains to like the,because Andy doesn't understand
it.
He explains he's beeninstitutionalized inside here.
He's an important man, he's aneducated man.
(17:19):
Out there he's nothing.
He's been institutionalizedLike these walls.
At first you hate them and thenyou get used to them and then
they become like a kind ofsafety.
You rely on them.
So we see Brooks at this point.
It is now 1955.
He has been on the inside forhis entire life.
(17:39):
He's in a halfway house.
He gets a job bagging groceries.
He's got arthritis so his handshurt all the time.
He had seen an automobile oncewhen he was a kid and now
they're everywhere.
And so he sends a letter to theinmates saying he had to let
Jake the crow, who's all grownup, go because he can't take
care of him anymore.
You see him feeding birds,hoping that Jake maybe might
(18:00):
show up and say hi.
But he doesn't.
And so he says I decided Idon't want to stay anymore and I
doubt anyone will kick up afuss for an old crook like me.
And so in the like lonely oldroom in his halfway house he
packs his bag, he carves brookswas here in the like railing at
the top of his room and then hehangs himself and it's just
(18:23):
heartbreaking.
We see red have his 30-yearparole hearing where he says the
same thing oh yes, yes, I'vebeen rehabilitated and he's
again rejected attacks the lead,sister Boggs, so that he never
walks again and is transferredto a minimum security hospital.
(18:51):
And no one ever touches Andyagain.
Around the same time that Brooksdies, warden Norton starts an
initiative called the Inside Outprogram where he has his
inmates doing work for all kindsof programs like building
highways, fixing infrastructure,building buildings and things
(19:15):
like that.
But it's all a grift, they'rebasically slave labor.
So because he can undercut anybid, he receives kickbacks from
companies so that they can getthe bids.
We see one person saying likeI'm going to go under if I don't
get this contract and so givinghim a bribe.
And so Andy is the one doingall of this, getting all of this
(19:40):
dirty money and then launderingit.
Andy's explaining to Red thathe has created a false persona
named Randall Stevens, who isthe one behind all of that, so
that he can launder the money,so it will never come back to
either Norton or Andy, so thatthere's no real person to blame.
And Andy says because he knowsthe system, he knows the cracks
(20:02):
in the system.
So Randall Stevens has a birthcertificate, a social security
card, a driver's license and allof that, and he's got the bank
accounts in a dozen differentbanks all over Portland and so
he's the one that you can blameand so he's the one handling all
that.
And Andy says you know, I wasan honest man on the outside.
(20:23):
I had to come to prison tobecome a crook.
And Red says do you want to bedoing this?
He says, well, because I dothis, I'm allowed to take care
of the library because it workshim sending these letters.
He sends one a week and aftersix years they sent him a box of
remaindered books from thelibrary and $200.
So he starts sending two a weekuntil they realize he's not
(20:47):
going away.
And they send $500 a year andthey have the best prison
library in New England that theymake the Brooks Hatland
Memorial Library.
After Dear Brooks, tommyWilliams comes in for a two-year
(21:10):
stint for breaking and enteringAndy, takes him under his wing
because he'd never gotten hishigh school diploma to help him
get his GED.
And at that point Andy haslearned not to talk about what
brought him there becauseeveryone claims they're innocent
.
And so he says what everybodysays I'm innocent, lawyer fucked
me.
And so it's after Tommy hastaken the GED and is certain
he's failed it and is reallyangry and feels like he's let
(21:32):
Andy down, that he's talking toRed and says what brought him
here, why is he here?
And Tommy has been in prisonsall throughout New England Like
he's just kind of ane'er-do-well fuck up.
And Red tells him what happenedand Tommy goes white and he
says he had a cellmate whobragged about having killed a
(21:57):
man and the tasty bitch he wassleeping with and that some
banker got fingered for it andwent to prison for it.
So Andy goes to the warden totell him like we can reopen my
case.
The warden at first says likeoh, it's clear, this young man
looks up to you and you know I'msorry, you're taken in by it.
(22:18):
And Andy is like are youkidding?
No, there's going to be records.
There's enough that we canreopen my case.
And then the warden continuesto kind of kindly put it down
until Andy calls him obtuse andthen says you can be assured, I
will never say anything aboutwhat goes on in here.
(22:39):
And then the warden puts him insolitary for a full month While
he is in solitary.
And while he is in solitary thewarden asks to speak to Tommy
alone outside and says like Ineed to be sure that I'm making
the right decision here.
Are you telling the truth aboutwhat you heard from?
That cellmate Would up andgives a signal and the captain
(22:59):
shoots Tommy.
And so the warden then comesdown to where Andy is in
solitary and says it's a shame,he only had a year to go, young
(23:20):
man like that.
And Andy says it all stops, I'mnot helping you anymore.
He's like, oh, nothing stops,you're going to be gone from
that one bunk.
Hilton.
I'm going to cast you down withthe sodomites.
You're going to think you'vebeen fucked by a train.
You're going to continue.
Yeah, it's ugly, it's all goingto continue and everything
continues.
And that library you built.
We're going to have a bookbonfire.
(23:41):
We're going to see it all theway in Portland, all the books
being burned.
And then he says give himanother month to think about it.
So he has two full months insolitary.
When he gets out, he and Redtalk.
Andy says I killed my wife.
I didn't pull the trigger, butshe always said I was a hard man
to know God.
I loved her, but I didn't knowhow to show her and so I pushed
(24:03):
her away and that's why she died.
And Red said that you didn'tkill her, like you were a bad
husband maybe, but that didn'tmean you killed her.
And so Andy says to Red whenyou get out of here, I want you
to go to this hayfield in Buxton.
There's a tree there andthere's a rock wall.
You're going to find a rockthat has no business being in a
(24:25):
main hayfield Underneath of that.
There's something there that Ileft for you.
And then he tells him aboutthis town in Mexico called
Zuantaneo.
It's right on the Pacific Ocean.
The Mexicans say that thePacific has no memory.
That's where I want to spendthe rest of my life.
Red's concerned because he'slike I've never seen Andy like
this.
And Haywood says like, ohgoodness, like he asked for a
(24:49):
length of rope today and they'reworried that he's going to be
like Brooks.
We see him doing the work forthe warden, like he always did,
you know, like three depositstonight putting things in the
safe, like he always did.
And so we see Red saying likeI've spent some long nights in
stir that was the longest one Iever spent because I didn't know
what was going on with Andy.
The next morning they do, youknow, the check for everyone,
(25:14):
and Andy doesn't come out of hiscell.
And so guard comes in and goesholy mother of God, and we still
don't know what's going on.
And then we find out he'smissing, he's not in his cell,
so at least he's not dead.
And the warden is like he hadasked Andy to shine his shoes.
And he goes to put them on thenext morning and it's Andy's
(25:36):
shoes.
And we find out that Andy hadtunneled through his wall over
19 years with that rock hammerand had covered it up with the
poster of Rita Hayworth, whichthen became Marilyn Monroe,
which finally had become RaquelWelch, and learn that over time
Andy had put together all ofthese different things so he had
(25:59):
stolen the suit from the warden.
He had stolen the ledger withall of the information and had
switched it with the Bible,because the warden gave everyone
a Bible at the beginning andthe Bible is where he had been
hiding his rock hammer.
Salvation did lie within, yes,and we have that wonderful scene
(26:20):
of when he gets out, when hehas crawled through the sewage
pipe, and gets out and is in therain and is with his face up to
the rain, and then the nextmorning he stops at every single
bank where Randall Stevens hadan account and withdraws the
money from the account becausehe has the Social Security card,
(26:43):
randall Stevens' SocialSecurity number, and the license
and the signature is a perfectmatch, right.
So he left town with $370,000of the warden's ill-gotten gains
, which in 1966, which is in2025, it was about $3.7 million.
(27:04):
And then at the first bank, wesee the banker say is there
anything else we can do for you?
And he says could you put thisin your outgoing mail for me?
And it is the ledger.
And he mails it to the Portlandnewspaper.
And so we see the DA arrestingthe Captain Hadley, the captain
(27:26):
of the guard, and then coming toarrest the warden.
The warden wasn't going to goquietly.
He has a gun, he has it aimedat the door and as they're
knocking on the door they saidcome on, warden, make it easy on
yourself.
And he like looks, and then hepoints it at his chin and kills
himself.
And Red's voiceover says I'dlike to think the last thing
(27:47):
that went through the warden'smind before the bullet was how
did Andy get him?
Best him?
So we then see Red go throughthe next year, because it's one
year later, is his 40th year inprison, and his parole board.
This one is different, becausethey ask him have you been
rehabilitated?
(28:07):
He's like I don't know whatthat word means.
And they start well, it meanshe's like I know what you think
it means, but it's a bullshitword.
And he basically says like it'swhat you like, it's a reason
for you to wear a suit and tieand have a job.
And he's like well, are yousorry for what you've done?
And he's like I look back onthat kid who did that terrible
(28:29):
crime and I wish I could talk tohim.
I wish I could tell him likewhat's what, but I can't.
That boy is gone and all that'sleft is this old man.
So you know, just stamp yourstamp, because I don't have time
for this shit.
And they release him.
So we see him going through.
He basically gets the same lifethat Brooks did and we see that
(28:52):
it suits him as badly as it didBrooks.
And the only thing that keepshim from going down the same
path Brooks did is the promisehe made to Andy.
So he goes to that field and hefinds what Andy buried and it's
a tin box and in it is anenvelope full of cash and a
(29:13):
letter that says you've comethis far.
Are you willing to come alittle farther?
Do you remember this name ofthe town?
I need a man to help me,because Andy had said he wants
to get a worthless old boat andfix it up and he wants to start
a hotel.
And so Red says I'm going tobreak the law for the second
time in my life, paroleviolation this time and he says
(29:37):
and I doubt anyone's going tokick up a fuss for an old crook
like me, just like Brooke saidand we see him buying a bus
ticket and he's like I'm soexcited I can hardly sit.
Still, I can't wait to see myfriend again.
And the last moment we see isthem on the beach.
Andy is fixing up an old boatand Red approaches him, and
(29:59):
apparently this was the firstscene they filmed which worked
out well because they didn'tknow each other that well.
And so there's that hesitancyof friends who haven't seen each
other in a while, but they'reglad to see each other, and then
we see them embrace and that'sthe end of the film.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Wow, you did not say, shenanigans ensue.
There are no shenanigans thatensue.
So where do you want to start?
Speaker 1 (30:24):
All right, I'm going to start with dehumanization,
because I've been thinking abouthow part of what goes on with
this film is part of the storyof the American prison system
and that's part of like humannature, but we see it over and
over again in this film.
(30:44):
So, by deciding that someonewho has committed a crime is no
longer human, we are okay withwhatever happens inside the
prison system.
Okay, well, the ones who areactually innocent are like.
(31:06):
They deserve our pity and ourcompassion, you know, and like.
What's remarkable about thisfilm is that we get the.
We are given the opportunity tofeel compassion for everyone
and even though we seesympathetic characters
dehumanizing others.
So, like Heywood at the verybeginning, like the fat man who
(31:29):
cries and dies, heywood callshim fat ass and is indirectly
responsible for his death.
But we like Heywood.
Heywood's a good guy.
Heywood did something horrificbecause he's there for 20 years
at least, because he's beenthere before.
He's been there a long time.
(31:49):
He's a lifer, but he's a friendand he did something awful and
was dehumanizing.
He was not the one whosuggested that they do this, but
he was real all in on.
Like, all right, we're going tosee which of these fish cry
because that's what they callthem the new fish.
So like it's just this veryinteresting examination of how
(32:12):
complex humans are, and I feellike Andy is one of the few
characters who doesn't like,because his first question is
does anybody know his name?
And you know, I was thinkingabout the fact that Hadley beats
up Boggs once.
It's clear that Andy is usefuland it's not a kindness, this is
(32:34):
not to protect Andy because helikes him, it's because Andy's
useful and we don't want to hurtthat brain, right?
(33:10):
You?
Speaker 2 (33:10):
know it's interesting too, though, like so you're
pointing to the fact that Andyis like one of the few
characters who maybe doesn'thave that both and.
But it's interesting becauseI'm not sure at least based on
the way you just described theplot, I'm not sure that it in a
first viewing that he could beguilty of killing his wife and
her lover.
So it's true that in retrospecthe's sort of like a stand-up
guy all the way around, exceptfor the money laundering, but we
don't know that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
And he did for complex characters.
He did get drunk and take a gunto, I mean, that's to the guy's
house where his wife was Right.
And last night, as I waswatching it, I had this thought
that like where's his grief overhis wife?
And then I was thinking likewell, she said he's a hard man
to know and like throughout heplays everything close to his
(33:44):
vest.
So like just because we don'tsee his grief for his wife
doesn't mean he's not feeling it.
So I was thinking about thatdehumanization, in part because
right near our house there is anew billboard up that says
imagine going to a musicfestival and never coming home
(34:06):
and it's in reference to theOctober 7th attacks in 2023 in
Israel, and because I see somany signs that are
pro-Palestinian in a way that isworrisome that it is worrisome
because it is like erasing,dehumanizing Israelis.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, it's dehumanizing Israelis and
erasing the agency of.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Palestinians, so it ends up dehumanizing israeli,
dehumanizing israeli and erasingthe agency of palestinians that
, so it ends up dehumanizingpalestinians as well.
Exactly, I was thinking aboutthat as I drove past it this
morning and about how, like, how, we are able to say like, oh,
that person deserves it, like soeasily if we can like trace it
back to like whatever they didto begin with and that is like
(34:49):
so perfectly encapsulated withthe American prison system.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
And then, especially when it comes to like prison
rape is a joke so commonly inAmerican culture, yeah, I was
just thinking that that Red saysyou have to be human first to
be homosexual, which is aninteresting like in your in this
, this specific thread thatyou're pulling on about
dehumanization.
(35:16):
Wow, I'm not sure where to gowith that.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Well, it's a, it's a moment that I'm glad was in a
1994 movie, in a moment that wastaking place in 1947.
Yeah, because it could soeasily have just been homophobic
.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Right, but instead it actually divorced homosexuality
from the sadism.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yes, yeah, it was making it clear like they're not
doing this because they're gay.
Yeah, this is not about sexualpleasure.
This is about deviance in termsof, like, sadism in terms of
power, yeah, yeah, and they areno different from Ward and
Norton and Hadley, Right?
(36:02):
So that, like I, just I find itreally fascinating, Right, so
so that, that, like I, just Ifind it really fascinating, and
what is like really lighting upfor me is like the fact that
this is such a beloved movie forAmericans when we have such a
problem with our prison system.
Like, yeah, Talk about both.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
And I mean.
In some ways it makes sense,though, because it allows us to
feel like we're doing the rightthing, because, like, oh, but I
love Shasha.
Yeah Right, I feel the same wayabout To Kill a Mockingbird.
You know like people can loveTo Kill a Mockingbird without
doing anything at all to fix thebias in the so-called justice
system.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
And that actually, that brings me a little bit to I
hadn't seen it and it's because, like, we're nice Jewish girls
but people see Andy as a Christfigure, which once it was
pointed out to me I was like, ohyeah, of course they do.
And even the way he stands inthe rain I'm like, oh yeah, yeah
, like death and resurrection.
Okay, okay, I gotcha.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, because they think he's dead.
They think he's dead when themorning, but the cave is empty.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Uh-huh, yeah.
And even like there's a removalof the rock.
There's even like there was asuggestion that the moment with
the beers is like the LastSupper, which I was like I'm not
following you here, but okay,because he didn't partake, I
don't know, I don't like it.
Okay, he has disciples and likehe is without sin, unlike the
(37:35):
rest of his disciples, unlikethe rest of us.
There is the moment where heplays the opera, which everyone
stops and listens, and itactually we see men in the
infirmary rise from their beds.
So he like actually even healsthe sick.
So like I think that's allright on, I definitely see that,
although Darabont makes itclear that he did not mean it
(37:56):
that way, and I think TimRobbins is atheist and is just
like yeah, nah.
So I think that goes to howAmericans can love this film and
not necessarily hate it, seethe irony and the hypocrisy of
(38:17):
it being an indictment of ourprison, an indictment of our
prison system, and still lovethis movie and not do anything
about it.
Yeah.
And then there's also the factthat we never learn any
backstory of the horrible crimesthat any of these characters
committed, with the exception ofTommy, who he's a petty, petty
crook like was there forbreaking and entering.
(38:39):
It's all like small time crime,so breaking and entering.
He stole a car, like it's abunch of little things that he's
done, like a little bit of timefor every time.
And so the film is set up in away where we can see the
humanness of these men, withoutknowing the monstrousness that
they are also capable of, whileshowing us the monstrousness
that they are also capable of,while showing us the
(39:00):
monstrousness, the mundanemonstrosity, of the warden and
the guards Right, which that'spart of what makes it an
effective film.
But at the same time, everysingle man and woman who is
serving time is also human, nomatter what they have done Right
(39:23):
, and they are just as capableof salvation and redemption as
Red and Haywood and Brooks.
So it's a both end.
It's a both end.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
So I want to talk about money.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, let's talk about money.
I mean, it's you, it's me.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
So one of the things that, like this movie, always
appealed to me, in part becausemoney's a tool for Andy and I
actually I suspect that StephenKing, just based on a couple of
the things that I've read abouthim I've read of his that he
doesn't necessarily look atmoney the way that I do, but
just the way that he was raisedand a couple other things I
think he looks at money as atool, sort of the way that I do,
because I really appreciatedthat for Andy, money wasn't just
(40:11):
his job as a banker, like that,it wasn't just what he did on
the outside While he waslistening to the guard
complaining about thisinheritance, like the rest of
Haywood and Red were like, yeah,poor Hadley, it's got to be
rough, it's got to be rough it'sgot to be rough.
You know, $35,000 falling inyour lap.
(40:33):
Andy didn't just hear that andgo meh, meh, meh, meh and go,
which is a natural reaction.
He is like already two, threesteps ahead, going like I know
what is going on with that, Iknow how to help him, I know how
helping him could help me and Iknow I can take a calculated
(40:55):
risk right now by approachinghim, because approaching him is
risky.
I mean he could have, if he hadnot timed it right, killed him.
He could have ended.
Who think about money that way,think about money that way,
(41:22):
people who tend to have thatnature Also.
The other thing I appreciateabout Andy as a character is
that he thinks about letter aweek to the state Senate.
He recognizes that hispunishment is time, but that
(41:44):
also means that he has a benefit, a currency.
Yeah, he has a currency thatthe people on the outside don't
Right.
He has a currency to trade inthat they just don't have yeah
because he has the time to writea letter every week and be a
nuisance, Whereas they got kidsto pick up from daycare.
They have bills to pay, theyhave shit to do that he's going
(42:07):
to be a pain in their ass.
He has the time.
He has the time to be a pain intheir ass and, like other
inmates, are not able to seetime as a currency that way,
Like other inmates are not ableto see time as currency that way
.
Now you do hear about like it'svery common to hear about
inmates becoming like, reallybuff because they use the time
currency to exercise and stufflike that.
(42:27):
Right, that's a lot more common.
But using time currency to geta different kind of goal less
common.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
And to agitate for the outside.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yes, I feel like we also hear about a lot of inmates
who read a lot and and actuallydo, yeah, or they'll educate
themselves and stuff like that.
But agitating for the outside,using that time currency to
affect others outside you'llhear about inmates who become
like experts in their own caseand that sort of thing.
Yeah, but he's agitating forthe outside to improve other
people's lives, not his own.
(43:01):
On the inside, yeah, on theinside, yeah, I just find that
fascinating, and I feel likethat goes hand in hand with that
understanding of money as atool.
There's a couple other things Iwant to talk about.
I know we're running low ontime, but the other thing that I
think think is lovely aboutthis movie is it shows male
friendship in a way that is veryunusual, because these are two
male friends who are notengaging in a car chase, trying
(43:24):
to defuse a bomb, fighting overa woman like trying to save a
MacGuffin.
They are just spending timetogether and talking Like they
play checkers.
Andy offers to teach Red chess.
They're talking philosophy,they're telling jokes.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's an intellectual and emotional intimacy.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Yes, and you don't ever see that it's beautiful.
And like you saw me tearing upwhen I was saying, when they
meet at the end, like Red talksabout after Andy is gone before
his parole, how much he misseshis friend and how excited he is
to see his friend when he's onhis way to Zoetaneo, and
(44:06):
recognizing like Hollywood neverrecognizes the importance of
that kind of intimacy, like inHollywood we get to see romantic
intimacy and we get to seeparent to child intimacy.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
That's pretty much it For the most part.
Yeah, well, it's sort of slowstorytelling.
Yes, like to really convey it.
Well, it's slow and that's notthe way that Americans have been
taught to expect theirentertainment.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Yes, and that is part of like.
This movie breaks a lot ofrules.
It's a two-hour and 20-minutemovie.
It's a long movie.
It's a long movie.
It takes place over 19 years.
Actually, it takes place over20 years, come to think of it,
1947 to 1967.
And it doesn't have like atraditional narrative arc.
(44:55):
It's kind of a series ofvignettes.
The action really is in thelike last, I don't know third of
the film.
It's a character study.
It's hard to say is.
I tend to think that storieswith a narrator, even if the
narrator is like focusing on onecharacter and that character is
(45:16):
supposedly the main character,I think that it's about the
narrator is like focusing on onecharacter and that character is
supposedly the main character.
I think that it's about thenarrator.
I tend to think that becauseRed is the one who has a real
arc, like he's the one we seechange from that first parole
board hearing to the end.
He goes from being very cynicalto accepting Andy's view of
hope and Andy doesn't actuallychange much.
(45:39):
No, now he does accept somesort of responsibility for his
role in his wife's death.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Right, even that we're, I think we're meant to
question.
Speaker 1 (45:53):
But he is quietly working to just maintain the
hopeful, forward-looking, stillwarm self that he is Right and
this is not the life he chose.
But he will work to be who heis in the circumstances that he
(46:18):
finds himself in.
That, I think, is reallyfascinating.
Another aspect that I think islovely is that this is very much
a pushback against toxicmasculinity, because Andy is
very he's just like a kind ofwarm, positive masculine
character.
Speaker 2 (46:38):
Well, and the men who exhibit toxic masculinity.
All are villains.
Yes, right, the captain and thewarden and some of the other
inmates?
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
Absolutely Well, and even I mean even Boggs, I mean
like he is quote unquote queer,he's queer, but the way he takes
by force is certainly toxicmasculinity.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, so before we hit record, you told me a couple
of things you want to talkabout.
We are already over time, butone of the things that you said
that I would love to hear youactually get into is the ways in
which this film may be that itwas maybe an unintentional
tribute to the power of cinema.
So tell me more about what youmeant by that.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
So there are a couple of times where it's clear that
film gives the inmates anopportunity to kind of escape.
So when Andy asks Red for theposter of Rita Hayworth, the
prison is screening a film of Ithink it's Some Like it Hot, but
no, that's not it.
They're screening of RitaHayworth.
The prison is screening a filmof.
I think it's Some Like it Hot,but no, that's not it.
They're screening a RitaHayworth film.
(47:42):
It's the one with Gilda, Ithink it's Gilda is the name of
it, anyway.
And so Andy comes to find Redand he's like hey, red.
And he's like hold on a second.
I just want to see this part.
I love this when she does theshit with the hair, where she
does the flip with the hairthat's so famous.
And apparently there was adifferent movie they were
planning on doing.
And that's part of the point isthat it doesn't really matter
(48:03):
what movie it was, because for amoment these men could escape
where they were and just seethat film.
And Red says that and Andy saysoh yeah, I know, I've seen it
three times this month.
So he asks Red, can you get meher?
And Andy says oh yeah, I know,I've seen it three times this
month.
So he asks Red, can you get meher?
And Red says yeah, but it'lltake me a couple of weeks.
(48:24):
And Andy goes a couple of weeks.
He's like yeah, I don't haveher stuff down the front of my
pants and at the time it's notclear what they're talking about
, but it's the poster.
As Andy leaves, boggs attackshim and then goes into the room
where the film is, like the filmcanisters are, and the guy
who's the inmate, who's manningit, says like I got to change
(48:45):
the film.
And Boggs and his friends arelike beat it, get out of here.
So Andy grabs one of the filmreels and like hits them with it
.
Reels and like hits them withit.
And so the analysis I wasreading was saying like not only
(49:08):
is the actual like film thatthey're watching an escape, but
Andy is using the physical filmto protect himself.
So there's that aspect of it.
So it's like a tribute.
That's an interesting metaphor.
Yeah, it's an interestingmetaphor.
And then the fact that you knowit's like a camera lens and so,
(49:42):
again, there's this kind of like, it's this tribute to the power
of cinema to provide an escape,a sense of story and hope, and
so I just I found, found thatreally fascinating, and that's
with Frank Darabont's oeuvre, hethat seems like something that
(50:02):
he has revisited, notnecessarily intentionally, and
all filmmakers are film lovers,you know like so it's, of course
.
And in the same way that, like,writers write about writers and
bookstores and libraries andstuff, and there are all these
TV shows about TV shows, yeah,exactly.
But once that was pointed outto me I was just like, oh yeah,
I see that, I can see that.
(50:23):
And even the moment with themusic all over where all of the
inmates are listening, that'snot film, but it's the tribute
to the power of art to upliftand provide freedom in any
circumstance, it's just lovely,it's just lovely, cool, all
(50:45):
right, is there anything elsethat you wanted to make sure
that you said before?
Speaker 2 (50:49):
I see if I can reflect back to you your
analysis here.
Speaker 1 (50:53):
Just this is.
This reiterates what I'vetalked about a couple of other
times, where it's if you makesomething that you believe in
and you make it the best thatyou can, it will find its
audience.
Randall Stevens was completelymade up by Andy Dufresne.
(51:18):
There was no grift from thewarden.
There were several differentwardens and so the money was all
Dufresne's and so had nothingto do with the prison, and so
just a lot less satisfying ifAndy's getting one over on the
(51:39):
people who abused him for 20years.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, okay, so let me see if I can reflect back to
you some of the things that youtalked about.
So I'm going to actually startwith the fact that, like we're
over time on this, because thisis like a long story, and part
of the reason it's a long storyis because it's a story about
intellectual and emotionalintimacy, which is not something
that happened.
You don't say shenanigans ensuewhen you're talking about
intellectual and emotionalintimacy and therefore it's
(52:02):
actually not a story that we getvery often in Hollywood.
It is not the way thatAmericans have been taught to
expect their entertainment, andso there's something really
refreshing and beautiful aboutthis, that kind of intimacy in
general.
You pointed out the fact thatthe only intimacy we really get
out of Hollywood is romanticintimacy or parent-child
intimacy, and so this intimacybetween two friends, which is
(52:24):
not at all romantic or sexual,is unusual and really lovely and
had you tearing up when youwere thinking about it, and also
requires a lot of screen timein order to actually believe it.
So, because intimacy is builtthrough trust and time, so it's
also the case that you have someresonance with this film.
(52:47):
You just wrote that you I don'tknow if just you wrote an
article about sort of this filmas like a power of investing,
and you notice that maybeStephen King thinks about money
in somewhat similar ways thatyou do, insofar as money is a
tool and so there's lessemotionality around it.
I think is what you're gettingat with that.
Certainly, andy doesn't haveemotionality around money.
(53:10):
It is a tool, it is a mechanismthrough which he can get other
things, and telling other peoplehow to do it activates their
emotions, which makes him useful.
And you noted that he alsotreats time as a currency when
he's on the inside in similarways, in ways that other folks
give up because they getemotional about the continued
(53:33):
effort over the time, whereas hejust keeps on going and it pays
off.
So we spent actuallyconsiderable amount of time
talking about dehumanization andthe ways in which this film
sort of really holds a both andwhere we see sympathetic
characters dehumanize oneanother, but we still are meant
(53:53):
to sympathize with them.
There's also this deep irony andhypocrisy in this beloved film,
which is in many ways could beseen as an indictment of the
American prison system, butwhich has led to seemingly
unchanged attitudes among thispopulation who loves it, about
(54:15):
the prison system, and themethod of the storytelling sort
of somehow contributes to that,insofar as, like the authority
in the prison system are allvillains and total hypocrites
and we see their monstrosity.
We don't see the actual crimesof most of our inmates, but we
(54:36):
know that they're there.
And you pointed out the fact.
There's a sort of a Christianallegory, potentially with Andy
as a Christ figure.
He has no sin, unlike the restof us, although I pointed out
the fact that the both and isthere, at least on first viewing
with Andy, because we don'tknow for certain that he didn't
kill his wife and her loveruntil two thirdsthirds of the
(54:58):
way through the movie orwhatever.
So there's a very interestingkind of both and around all of
the characters, all of thesympathetic characters at least,
and even maybe some of thevillains.
And regarding dehumanization,there's also that interesting
moment where Red MorganFreeman's character says of the
(55:21):
refreshing, because I think itwould have been easy to go down
the route of demonizing thehomosexuality, which does not
(55:46):
happen, which I think is reallyimportant and positive, and I'm
glad that it's there in 1994,set in 1949.
That feels like really good andimportant, let's see.
You also talked about the waysin which this film what we
talked at the end about the waysin which it is a tribute to the
(56:08):
power of art in general andcinema in particular there are
specific moments where we seethe inmates actually sort of
escape metaphorically throughfilm.
There's also sort of metaphorswhere Andy uses the actual
physical film reel canister toprotect himself and like the way
that shots are framed to makeit sort of look like various
(56:30):
cinematic moments.
That feels a bit like a tribute.
A bit like a tribute.
I think you also named the factthat like this film sort of
breaks some storytelling rules,in part through what I already
said about there are noshenanigans and as a result,
like it was hard to market thename maybe as confusing, and so
it was technically a flop at thebox office.
(56:53):
But you pointed out thatbecause the filmmaker sort of
believed in what he was doingand really like produced a solid
product and a good story thathad real roots, that eventually
it did find its audience and nowis, among fan assessments, one
of the most beloved Americanfilms.
So it did in fact find itsaudience.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
It's also been named by the Library of Congress as a
piece of art that is culturallysignificant, culturally,
historically significant.
So, yeah, cool, cool.
Speaker 2 (57:24):
So what did I miss?
Speaker 1 (57:25):
in my Just that it rejects toxic masculinity and it
, you know, is a clear indicatorof like if you write and create
something beautiful, you willfind your audience.
Speaker 2 (57:41):
So, yeah, you write and create something beautiful,
you will find your audience.
So, yeah, yeah, I think thelast thing I'll say is that you
pointed out the fact that thisfilm, that the filmmaker
actually improved upon theoriginal source material by sort
of tightening the storytellingso that the payoff for andy is
also a comeuppance for hisabusers.
That connection connection wasmissing in the original King
novella and I think that thatdoes like tighten it in a way
(58:01):
that makes it very satisfying.
Oh, it's so much better.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
I was so disappointed because I saw the movie first,
then read the novella and I wasso disappointed yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:10):
Yeah, well, this was a very big departure from our
last, but it was fun.
Thank you for sharing your deepthoughts on this, and so next
week, I think, we have a guestcoming, yeah.
Speaker 1 (58:20):
next week my dear childhood friend Jen
Book-Hasselsworth is bringingher deep thoughts on Hook in
particular and her lifelong loveof Peter Pan in general.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
Cool.
I'm excited to have RobinWilliams on the show again.
Always, all right.
See you then.
Until then, this show is alabor of love, but that doesn't
make it free to produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
(58:55):
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to ResonateRecordings for editing today's
(59:16):
episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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