Hockety pockety wockety wack! Odds and ends and bric-a-brac!
In revisiting this classic Disney animation from 1963, Tracie found that the charm she remembered from her childhood wasn't nearly as charming this time around. While the comedy of Merlin, Archimedes the Owl, and Arthur (known as the Wart) was still humorous, the film feels more like a series of unconnected events rather than any kind of storytelling. The only named woman in the story is Madam Mim--although looking for feminism in any kids movies from the 1960s, animation or otherwise, may be a fool's errand--but at least she's a wonderfully subversive pop culture witch who is fun to watch. But the oddest thing about the film is Merlin's ineffectiveness as a teacher. His instruction does nothing to help Arthur pull the sword from the stone. In fact, the wizard is a terrible and irresponsible tutor.
Even with these uncomfortable realizations, there's much to admire. Even though The Sword in the Stone was made during Disney's low period, the animation is lovely and there are several parts that made Tracie laugh out loud. Just make sure that's really a squirrel before you fall head over heels in love with him!
To and fro, stop and go, listening to podcasts makes the world go round!
Mentioned in this episode:
https://disnerdmoviechallenge.com/blog/review-the-sword-in-the-stone-dmc-38
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
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We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Madame Mim is the only named female character.
She is fascinating, right Likeshe is unapologetically who she
is and in fact she's ugly.
And she says she's ugly and shenarrow waist, big hips, long
hair, like pretty face and she'slike but why would I do that?
(00:30):
She don't want it and that'skind of awesome.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:51):
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Culture is still culture, andshouldn't you know what's in
your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1963 Disney animated filmthe Sword in the Stone with my
(01:12):
sister, emily Guy-Burken, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
I know you saw this movie.
We watched it together a lotwhen we were kids.
I feel like it was one that wewatched with our cousin Chris.
But tell me, like what's inyour head, what comes up for you
when I mention the Sword in theStone?
So there's a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
There's Arthur Wart.
I remember identifying with himas being like overlooked people
, underestimating him because hewas just a kid and he didn't
fit in.
Because he was just a kid andhe didn't fit in.
I remember really liking that.
I remember loving the bad guy,madame Mim, like the dark magic.
(01:55):
I just thought she was funny,this very tiny detail.
When they first meet her I feellike, or at some point in their
encounter with her she'splaying solitaire and she's
cheating, and that justdelighted me.
I remember Wart in his lessonswith Merlin being turned into
various animals.
There's a point where he says,oh, I always wished I could fly,
(02:17):
and Merlin very quietly turnshim into a bird.
I remember him being turnedinto a squirrel and there's a
lady squirrel who, like, fallsin love with him and I.
That really always reallybothered me that part of the
story because, yeah, it'sbothersome For so many reasons.
Yeah we'll talk about it.
(02:39):
When Arthur pulls the swordfrom the stone, which I also as
a very literal child and theyactually they do something about
it in the story because it'slike this, pull the sword from
the stone and anvil because theway they've drawn it it's a
sword in a stone and an anvil.
So I'm like it's not in a stone, it's in a stone with an anvil.
(03:01):
I remember like the way that itis animated is very magical.
I also recall loving the factthat once Wart has pulled it,
then Kay, his cousin,half-brother, adopted brother,
who's like big muscly guy, islike oh, anyone can pull it once
(03:23):
it's been pulled and he can'tget it.
So that was so satisfying to meas a child.
I haven't seen the movie in.
It's got to be 35 years.
That chosen one trope I findtroubling as an adult watching
now because it removes agency.
As an adult watching nowbecause it removes agency from
(03:46):
the character, there's no freewill.
So as satisfying as I foundthat moment watching it as a kid
, I think revisiting it as anadult and it's, you know, that's
not the fault of like thisDisney movie.
It's baked into the Arthur myth.
But because it stops there, wedon't even get to see like okay,
you know, all right, he's thechosen one, he's a kid, what
(04:09):
does he do with it?
You know, we don't even get tosee the like, the Neo moment of
like.
Okay, now I'm going to use mychosen one to, like, fight back
against the evil, or anything.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout Sword in the Stone?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
today.
I swapped it in for a differentanimated movie that we had on
the list for now.
We recently talked aboutBeastmaster, so I was thinking
about fantasy.
Maybe that's why it sort ofresonated more than what we had
originally planned for right now.
It was one that, like I, wastotally charmed by when we were
kids.
It really really stuck with me,and so I wanted to kind of
(04:49):
revisit it.
Regular listeners will knowthat I'm a big fan of animation.
As a, when we were watchingthis the first time, like my
aspiration, like when peoplewould say what do you want to be
when you grow up, tracy, Iwould say I want to be an
animator for Disney, and so theDisney animation remains really
close to my heart, and this onewas one that really was pretty
(05:10):
formative, and so it seemed likeit was time.
So that's why, now A few things, just some postcards from the
destination, from the analysis Iwant to talk about.
We will talk about genderbriefly.
I want to talk about magic inthis movie and the way they talk
about it versus the way itactually shows up as an element
of the story and, to your point,about sort of the chosen, one
(05:34):
kind of trope, if we have saidon Deep Thoughts and I stand by
this that one of the hallmarksof a protagonist is that they
grow and change through thestory.
And if that's the case, thereis no protagonist to this movie,
so I want to talk about that.
And what does that mean to havethis chosen one who really
(05:54):
doesn't grow, even though thewhole movie is about his
education?
So that's kind of like aninteresting tension.
You remember, madame Mim?
She is the only named femalecharacter in the whole movie.
She's pretty fantastic actually, so I want to talk about her a
little bit.
Versus Merlin, who is aterrible tutor.
He's like a really rotten,rotten mentor.
(06:18):
His owl is a better teacherthan he is, so we'll talk about
that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, Al's do always have a graduation cap on, so
like you know that they'reeducated, they're just smart.
They're going to be goodteachers.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
One of the things that is interesting with Merlin
for the audience, thecontemporary audience, this is
1963.
And he has this he sort of seesthe future, which I don't think
I fully understood as a kid.
But he sees the futureincluding the 20th century, and
so he makes these references tothe 20th century, which actually
pretty funny.
There's actually a lot of humorin this movie.
There's like from Merlin butalso from Wart, actually like
(06:59):
these kind of snarky asides thatare quite funny.
And then briefly like since,since we talked about animation,
it's interesting that like agesago I don't remember which
episode we talked about Disney'sRobin Hood, which has a similar
sort of start.
It's 10 years later but it'slike more foundational in my
memory.
(07:19):
So that's kind of aninteresting thing to the way
that, as consumers, when thingsare all predate us, the order in
which we encounter them is notnecessarily the way that, as
consumers, when things are allpredate us, the order in which
we encounter them is notnecessarily the order that they
came.
And so to a certain extent,like re-watching this movie, I
was like, oh, it starts out justlike Robin Hood.
Actually it's the other wayaround.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I was.
When you said it was from 1963,I was like wait, it was.
It was my first reaction.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I was like I had no idea it was that old.
My first reaction I was like Ihad no idea it was that old,
yeah, yeah.
So let me give you a quicksynopsis.
This one, I'm not even going tosay it.
I'm going to say shenanigansand sue a lot in this synopsis
because it really is like aseries of vignettes, almost.
So it opens like Disney's RobinHood, with sort of an
(08:04):
illustration of a like anilluminated manuscript that we
open up, and so we learn thatEngland's king Uther Pendragon
has died, leaving no heir, andthere's fighting and there's
going to be a war.
But then a miracle happens andthis sword in a stone or like
appears in London and on thesword it says whosoever shall
(08:27):
pull this sword from this stonewill be the rightful king of
England, or something like that.
And everybody tries and nobodycan get it out and it just sort
of gets forgotten.
And there's England is justkind of kingless and the
narrator makes it clear that's abad thing.
England is just kind ofkingless and the narrator makes
it clear that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So you know because monarchy is the best method of
governance.
It's the best form ofgovernance, as we have proven
throughout time.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Over and, over and over again.
So that's the book.
And it's funny because I saythe Robin Hood thing.
I kept waiting for one of thelittle illuminated characters to
start talking to me, like therooster bard does in Robin Hood,
and that doesn't happen.
It actually is just like sortof still paintings which felt
(09:22):
kind of almost lazy.
It's like really obnoxious ofme as a viewer to say that, but
it really sort of felt like lazyanimation to have these like
still.
They're beautiful paintings butlike they aren't moving.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I knew you were going to start talking and singing
about Sir.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Kay and Wart wort.
So it starts being animated.
When we meet Merlin, he'spulling water from a well and he
keeps getting all tangled up inhis big long beard and
complaining about the medievalmess and how he misses modern
(10:00):
technology.
So from the get we meet him andwe see that he like has
knowledge of our time but issort of in this medieval time
and is just a little bitbumbling Like he's got this
beard that goes almost to hisknees and it keeps getting
tangled up and stuff.
So he goes back to this littlethatch roof cottage which is
(10:21):
like maximal, with like crapeverywhere and he's making tea
and like arranging the house.
And he starts talking to hisowl, archimedes, who is a
intelligent talking owl Just gowith it.
And he's expecting someone andthey're going to drop in for tea
(10:41):
and he tells us it's a youngboy.
And then he's like envisioningand we see, like in his like
thought cloud we see Kay who isthe adoptive brother.
He's a lunk of a man, like justa total meathead, and Merlin
says, oh no, that can't be him.
And then behind him comes thisscrawny little thing about 11.
(11:02):
That's who we're waiting forand Merlin doesn't know why.
Yet Kay the lunkhead is huntingwith an arrow, with a bow and
arrow.
He's hunting a deer and Wartaccidentally messes up his shot
and the arrow goes way up, highand down into the forest and
Kay's like gonna, he's chasingafter W Wart we don't know his
(11:25):
name yet and is like really madat him for messing up his shot.
And Wart says it's okay, I'mgonna go get the arrow.
And Kay says you can't go inthere, there are wolves in that
forest.
And Wart says I'm not scared,I'm gonna go get your arrow.
So Kay says whatever, you knowI don't remember exactly how he
says it, but basically, likeyour funeral is a sentiment.
(11:47):
So we watch Wart go into theforest and a scrawny wolf takes
interest in him immediately.
Wart is just wandering theforest and he sees the arrow.
It's stuck up in a tree.
He climbs up the tree to getthe arrow, a branch breaks and
he falls through the thatchedroof exactly onto the chair that
Merlin has left for him.
(12:08):
So now the two meet each other.
Merlin doesn't know why thisboy's important, but he knows he
is.
We learn his name.
My name's Arthur, but everybodycalls me the Wart.
Merlin says that's anunfortunate nickname.
So the three of them meet.
Archimedes and Merlin and Wartmeet and Wart is very polite,
not at all scared by the magic,like there's a little sugar dish
(12:31):
with a spoon and his little lidthat he uses as a hat, that
like moves around the table andlike puts sugar into the tea and
stops when the person says whenand like.
Wart is not freaked out by thisat all, which I think is
significant.
Wirt is not freaked out by thisat all, which I think is
significant.
He's not freaked out byArchimedes either.
He thinks he's a stuffed owlinitially and Archimedes gets
(12:52):
offended.
But even when he gets offendedit's not like oh my God, a
talking owl, it's just like, oh,I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
hurt your feelings, he justtakes it in stride.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
That's kind of the definition of Wirt.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
So he kind of is yeah .
So Merlin says I'm going toteach you.
And Wirt's like, okay, I meanwhat?
Merlin's like you know, I'mgoing to give you an education.
And you know we learn that Wirtis an orphan and like that's
not a thing that he can do.
He has to get back to thecastle because he has duties.
(13:30):
And Merlin's like, ok, I'llcome with you.
And then we see the first, likebig magic, where he has this
weird little incantation that hesort of sings with lots of
bippity, boppities and like allof the maximalist stuff that's
in this little cottage likeshrinks down, tiny, and goes
into a carpet bag.
And Wart is charmed by this,but again, not phased.
So then they set out andMerlin's like giving this speech
(13:52):
about like how important it isto have a direction, and it's
like and like do the things.
And then they're like stridingpurposefully through the forest
like up hills and over dales,meanwhile the scrawny wolf
chasing them, trying to eat thewart, like totally missing him.
The two humans are completelyoblivious to the wolf.
Finally, merlin like runs outof breath in his like monologue
(14:17):
about the importance ofdirection and says where is this
castle, by the way?
And Ward says, oh, it'sactually the other way.
So they turn around and stridethe other way and the poor wolf
is like, exhausted and thwarted,cut to the castle where Sir
Ector, who is the adoptivefather, is berating Kay who
(14:38):
couldn't care less, is likeeating meat off a bone with his
feet up.
And Ector's like how could youlet him go into the forest?
He's a scrawny little thing.
And Kay's like I'm not thewarts keeper.
And Ector's like why I am LikeI said I would take care of him.
And how could you?
I'm like he's going to, he'sgonna, he's gonna die.
And k's like what if he does?
You know?
(14:59):
Like it's really.
K is not a good guy, so andector's not, actually doesn't,
actually care, doesn't seem toactually care about the child's
well-being, just his, hisreputation status, I guess yeah,
that's kind of how I read it.
So Merlin and Wart march in.
Hector yells at Wart and giveshim demerits for having worried
(15:23):
him half to death.
And then Merlin introduceshimself.
He's in boarding school, yeah,and he's going to have
punishments for these demerits.
We hear that a lot.
He gets a lot of demerits inthis movie and Merlin and Hector
kind of face off and Hector'slike you're not welcome here
with your magic.
And Merlin like disappears.
(15:45):
And Hector's like oh, I madehim go away.
And then you hear Merlin'svoice is like did you?
I could still be here, youdon't even know.
So if I leave or if I don't,you never know if I'm really
gone.
And Hector's like okay, you canstay.
And he puts Merlin up in the Iwant to say the West Tower.
It doesn't really matter, it'sthis like dilapidated tower that
(16:07):
like half it's going to falldown any second.
Hector says it's a little bitdrafty in the winter, but in the
summer it's the best, best roomin the house.
So we see later we see Merlinin this tower room like sticking
umbrellas up through holes inthe roof.
So these anachronisms happenover and over again.
(16:27):
And then Sir Pelennor arrivesand we hear him arriving and
there's another like sort ofanachronistic joke where Merlin
says I can't wait for the LondonTimes because that won't be
published for over a thousandyears and he asks Archimedes to
fly down and listen.
So it turns out they're goingto have a tournament on New
Year's Day and the winner of thetournament will be crowned king
.
And so actors like okay, you'reup to be knighted at Christmas
(16:53):
time.
You should, you know, stick toyour training and then you could
be in this tournament and Wartwill be your squire, and Wart's
really excited about that.
So that's sort of like a framestory.
There's this tournament comingon New Year's Day Right now it's
still summertime.
So we see Wart helping with thenight training.
(17:15):
Kay is terrible at it and likethe static horse that he's like
jousting against, keeps knockinghim off his horse.
And Merlin comes and finds himand is like hey, you know, let's
, I want to give you a lesson.
And Wart's like I got stuff todo.
And Merlin convinces him to go.
So they go for a walk and theyend up at the moat and Merlin
(17:40):
turns him into a fish andthey're swimming in the moat and
I suppose it's meant to bephysics.
There's like a little song thatthey sing like to and fro, stop
and go, that's what makes theworld go round.
Oh, my goodness, I rememberthat.
It is a bit of a musical, butlike not a high production
musical.
It's like just these two kindof thin voices with this child
(18:03):
and this old man.
So they have a great timeswimming until this pike takes
interest in little wart and isgoing to eat him and Merlin's
like kind of stuck in a helmetfrom like a suit of armor and
he's like brain over brawn.
My boy like outthink him.
And so Wart does a little bitbut like just eventually like
(18:27):
he's tired and like the pikealmost gets him and he's like
jumping up out of the water andArchimedes actually saves him,
finally gets turned back into ahuman and I don't like I don't
know what the lesson was.
Anyway, he we see him sort ofthen explaining to Hector and
Kay what happened.
They do not believe him.
(18:48):
More demerits, and by the way,the demerits come with kitchen
duty.
So doing dishes is thepunishment that feels a little
bit important for some of thelessons that we were taking.
So he's stuck doing like Idon't know, like a kingdom's
worth of dishes, like the onlyhumans we see in this castle.
(19:08):
Besides, we see Wart, kay,hector, and then we meet a maid
later and Merlin, but there'sdishes like there's like a
hundred people eating Anyway.
So Ward's cleaning dishes.
He's like singing his little toand fro song and Merlin's like,
hey, let's have another lesson.
He's like, no, look at allthese dishes.
I got to do so, even thoughMerlin told us from the very
(19:30):
beginning, when he made all ofhis stuff small and to fit into
the carpet bag, he said magiccan't solve all your problems.
But now he's solving hisproblem with magic because he
enchants the dishes to dothemselves and they're like they
set up like an assembly lineand they're like washing
themselves.
And so the two, merlin and thewart, leave the kitchen.
(19:51):
Next time we see them they'resquirrels and they're like
jumping through the trees andWart is just like running and
leaping and like not thinkingfirst, and Merlin's like very
carefully, like jumping andstill missing, and you know
that's kind of cute.
And then, what you remember, afemale squirrel takes interest
in Wart and she will not take nofor an answer.
(20:13):
She has decided that he is hermate.
And we learn from Merlin thatsquirrels mate for life.
And Merlin thinks this is veryfunny, like very funny, until
another female squirrel takes aninterest in Merlin.
And there are some funny momentswhere, like, wart is saying to
(20:34):
the squirrel, like I'm not a boy, I'm a squirrel.
No, I mean, I'm not a squirrel,I'm a boy, a human boy.
And then later Merlin's likeI'm not a boy, so a really sort
of bizarre thing that Wolf fromthe beginning comes back and
almost eats Wart, squirrel Wart,but female squirrel, who has
the hots for wart, saves him,actually like biting on the
(20:56):
wolf's ankles and stuff, andmerlin finally turns himself
back into a human to dissuadethe female squirrel that's into
him and then turns wart backinto a human and the little
squirrel that saved his life islike heartbroken, like we see
tears, like, and she and she'slike has this little like
(21:16):
whimper, like like it's really,really sad, like it's actually
quite bothersome and the lessonfrom that was not physics but
about love, which is morepowerful than magic, merlin
tells us Meanwhile the maid whodoes not have a name like freaks
out because the dishes arewashing themselves.
(21:38):
Which, girlfriend?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
pause a second here do not look a gift self-washing
dish in the mouth like you seethat happening.
You turn around, you go back,you put your feet up yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So she freaks out, sir, actor and k come in and
they're like fighting the dishesand like losing badly, like
break their swords and get likeknocked into buckets and stuff.
So we're.
And merlin come back in andlike this is black magic of the
worst kind.
How dare you?
And Merlin's like washingdishes is black magic.
(22:22):
Anyway, wart gets more demerits.
The maid is like don't you darecome near my kitchen again,
which again, girlfriend, that'syour kitchen.
Like what are you doing?
And Merlin feels real bad aboutlike getting him in trouble and
in fact Wart loses thesquireship and Hector gives it
(22:46):
to Hobbs, another kid, becauseWart talks back to him.
He says Merlin's a good person,he's not bad and it's not bad
magic, it's awesome and whatever.
He talks back to Hector and, asa result, gets like I don't
know a hundred demerits orsomething and he loses the
squireship and he's very upsetand merlin feels really bad.
But whatever, now you have moretime for your studies.
(23:06):
Then they get turned into birdsand archimedes teaches him to
fly and a hawk shows up and likeat this point, like maybe look
around for predators before youturn the kid into an animal.
So, running from the hawk, heends up in Madam Mim's cottage.
(23:26):
So she says she's the greatestmagician, but she's a black
magician.
Archimedes flies in, realizesMadam Mim goes and gets Merlin.
Merlin comes back, they have awizard's duel where they make
some rules which Mim immediatelybreaks.
Ultimately Merlin wins thewizard's duel by becoming a germ
(23:52):
and making her sick.
So then we sort of fast forwardand the tournament is coming and
Hobbes, who had been given thesquireship, is sick.
So Wart gets it back.
He goes to Merlin.
He's like look, I'm a squire.
I'm a squire.
He's wearing this like tunicthat's way too big for him.
And Archimedes is like that'sgreat boy.
And Merlin is like why wouldyou do that?
And he's like kind of yells athim.
(24:14):
Merlin is like why would you dothat?
And he's like kind of yells athim.
And Wirt's like what do youwant from me?
I'm an orphan, I'm poor, thisis it, this is as good as it
gets for me.
And Merlin just gets reallyfrustrated and says blow me to
Bermuda and leaves.
So they go to London.
Archimedes sticks with.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Wirt.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And they go to London and it's the middle of the
tournament and Kay's up next andWart realizes he's forgotten
Kay's sword back at the inn.
He goes back to the inn to tryand get it but it's locked up
because everybody's at thetournament.
And Archimedes says oh wait,look, there's a sword over in
that churchyard.
And they go over there andArchimedes is like maybe you
should leave this alone.
(24:53):
And Wart's like no, I need asword for Kay.
So he like pulls his sword outof the anvil and like golden
light bathes down on him.
He takes it back to thetournament grounds.
Ector immediately recognizeswhat it is.
Wart says where he got it andnobody believes him.
So they go back to thechurchyard and they stick it
(25:13):
back in this thing and he goesto take it out again.
And that's when the thing youremember k is like anybody can
pull it.
Once it's been pulled, k can'tpull it.
Other people try, finally, likesome stranger with a beard's,
like I say let the boy try.
And other people like yeah,that's what I say.
So arthur pulls it again,bathed in gold light, it comes
out and so ector immediatelykneels, apologizes for treating
(25:35):
him bad, makes Kay kneel to hisking.
And then we cut to the throneroom and this scrawny little boy
is wearing like the ermine andthe crown and he is miserable.
And Archimedes is with him.
He's by himself, just him andthe owl.
And he's like what am I goingto do?
And Archimedes is like can yousneak out the side door?
And he tries, but when he opensthe door you hear the crowds
(25:58):
going long live King Arthur.
And he's like well, let's trythis other door.
Long live King Arthur.
So he's like stuck and he says,well, I wish Merlin were here.
And apparently, having said hisname, he's like Beetlejuice and
he shows back up wearing Bermudashorts and he says the 20th
century isn't as cool as Ithought.
And then he or as I rememberedsomething like that.
(26:19):
And then Merlin realizes he'sKing Arthur of the round and he
says something about a roundtable and Arthur's like round.
And he's like well, would youprefer square?
And Arthur's like no, round isfine.
Merlin says you are going to bethe stuff of legends.
They're going to write booksabout you and histories about
you and, who knows, they mayeven make a motion picture.
So it's like a reference to themovie we're watching, where it
(26:40):
says what's a motion picture andMerlin says it's kind of like
television, but withoutcommercials, which was very
funny when I was watching it,because I have Disney Plus
supported by commercials, so Ijust watched the movie with
commercials.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And that's the end of the movie.
Commercials.
And that's the end of the movie.
So shenanigans, many, so manyshenanigans so where were so
many shenanigans?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I'm going to start with gender because it's easy we
can get out of the way.
This does not pass the bechdeltest.
So reminder are the bechdeltest from allison bechdel are
there at least two?
Named female characters no wecan stop there.
Do they speak to each other na?
Do they speak to each otherabout something other than?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
a man or a boy?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
NA, so it does not pass back time, so that's
interesting.
And Madam Mim is the only namedfemale character.
She is fascinating, right, likeshe is unapologetically who she
is and in fact she's ugly.
And she says she's ugly andshe's short and she's like round
and she has like funny hair.
(27:36):
She says I can be beautiful andshe makes herself beautiful and
the way they draw her when shesays that is like big boobs,
narrow waist, big hips, longhair, like pretty face and she's
like but why would I do that?
She don't want it and that'skind of awesome.
You know she don't want it andthat's kind of awesome.
(27:56):
And she like she's just likeclever and like interesting.
And the thing you rememberabout her you know playing
solitaire, like I don't know.
There's something like reallyfun about her.
So if we only got one, I'm kindof glad it was, madame Mim.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Kind of like the, you talk about feminine archetype,
she is kind of the witch, I meanshe's the.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
She's a witch and a crone.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, she's like both Like the zero fucks to give
postmenopausal.
Like I am not dealing with thisman's bullshit, breaking the
rules, like it's kind of that.
Like oh, this white dude, it'skind of that like oh, this white
dude, sure, you can make rules,fine.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Do whatever, except she's the one who makes the
rules.
She's the one who makes therules All right, fair enough.
It's not him.
She makes them to break them.
Fair enough, yeah, yeah, so wegot that out of the way, like I
actually don't have anythingelse to say about gender in this
one.
Well, actually I do, I do thesquirrels, the squirrels.
(29:03):
So there are four femalecharacters total.
There's the maid, who is kindof hag-ish.
There's Madame Mim, who isabsolutely a hag.
There's Madame Mim, who isabsolutely a hag.
And then there are these twosquirrels who are very like
sensual, sexual, lovestruckcreatures who like really get
the raw end of the deal, andalso they're chasing these two
(29:25):
male squirrels who are clearlynot interested, which in one
sense, like it's a little bitrefreshing, because usually
these movies it's the other wayaround and the female squirrel,
or human, is like eventuallyjust worn down and falls in love
anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
But it's not okay when it happens in any direction
.
It's also a male fantasy.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, and I don't have the words for it, but
watching it this time, there wassomething disturbing about this
picture of femininity that wasso oblivious and just lovesick,
sex crazed like crazy that's allthere was to it.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, that's the sum total of the personality, and
there was something disturbingabout that, especially thinking
about, like you and me, aslittle kids watching well, and
the the fact that merlin'slesson is love is stronger than
magic, which I don't think isnecessarily like, and
considering the arthur legendand includes guinevere and
(30:27):
lancelot and that love triangle,and that is the only thing that
causes lancelot to not be likea perfect knight, and all of
that that is within the story ofthe original myth.
So I think that's actually aworthwhile lesson within a
(30:47):
children's movie, except thatit's at the expense.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It's at the expense of these two creatures female
creatures female life and italso was not actually the lesson
.
He called it love.
That's not what we saw on thescreen.
What we saw on the screen wasattraction.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
It's messy, it's messy and it's, and it was
playful.
That's really what it comes tois.
It's the fact that we are givena chance to feel pity for the
squirrel that fell for wart, butoverall, the entire thing is
played for slapstick for both ofthese squirrels.
(31:28):
And isn't it so funny how boycrazy girls are, rather than it
being like.
Love is a force more powerfulthan magic, which I think is is
a worthwhile thing to thinkabout, think about and tell
children about and say like becautious, recognize that this is
(31:48):
that love is a powerful forceand it can cause people to do
things that are irrational andcan really, really hurt people.
So be cautious.
Yeah, yeah, I remember alwaysfeeling terrible for that poor
squirrel who we watched her cryand she risked her life.
(32:09):
She risked her life to save.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Wart.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And the fact that Merlin says squirrel's mate for
life, which I don't know ifthat's true or not.
I don't either.
I didn't look it up, but Merlintells in the universe of this
animation, and so I'm sittingthere going like this poor
heartbroken squirrel is going to, for the rest of her life, be
lonely well made for lifedoesn't mean mate once.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I mean, the squirrel that she was in love with is
dead.
Yeah, because he's a boy.
Yeah, a human boy.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I think the widow can find another squirrel well,
that's not how it works for likeswans who make for life.
If they're, yeah, if their matedies, they're done yeah, poor
swans so that's just, I'm like,just a little romantic emily as
an eight-year-old justremembered, like I remember,
like through that being like,I'm feeling for the squirrel and
(33:05):
feeling for wart, knowing thatas a little menschley boy,
knowing he'd, he'd have a pangfor her he does, he says, like I
tried to tell you and knowingevery once in a while.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
He actually feels bad .
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Every once in a while , he'd be thinking about this
world, going like I'm sorry, youknow.
Yeah, as a king, going likemaybe I could leave some acorns
for her, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So let me talk about Merlin for a second.
So let me talk about Merlin fora second.
So, like as a kid, thereferences to the 20th century
were hilarious.
They were so funny.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I remember the Bermuda shorts charming me.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, I was really charmed by the references to the
20th century.
Or, like I can't wait for theLondon Times.
Or like you know, he talksabout helicopters and even the
mention of television andwhatever.
Like I was very, very charmedby that anachronism.
It's kind of like a dramaticirony which you love.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Which.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
I love.
But within the universe it'sactually kind of annoying and
irresponsible.
Like at one point he's teachingWart and he talks about how
we're going to discover that theworld is round, and Wart's like
you mean it's going to becomeround?
He's like no, no, it's roundright now.
And Archimedes is like if hegoes around saying that the
(34:22):
world is round now, people aregoing to think he's a lunatic,
he can't handle it.
Like stop, you can't give this11th century kid, 20th century
or whatever, I don't even knowif it's 11th century, but you
can't do this.
And so Archimedes takes over astutor.
Archimedes isn't a great tutoreither because, like work, can't
(34:46):
read.
And so Archimedes is teachinghim the alphabet and he's like
writing on a chalkboard and he'snot doing a great job.
He does some letters backwardsand Archimedes like smacks him
on the head and like says can'tyou get anything right?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Like he's not a great tutor either.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
But better than Merlin.
You know I didn't see that as akid, that sort of he's not a
great mentor.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
no-transcript it's more of a straight fantasy story
.
There's not the humor or thereferences.
Like I think, merlin can seethe future but he doesn't travel
, doesn't have time travel,because this disney and he
doesn't make humorous references, he just knows yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So what I was getting at in terms of storytelling and
he's a teacher is that what'smissing from this film?
Like we have these vignettes oflike he turns them into a bunch
of different animals, andwhat's missing is how those
experiences actually change andteach Wart.
There's no evidence of that.
Like I think it would have beenmuch more satisfied.
(36:20):
So we see him pull the swordfrom the stone.
He was just in the right placeat the right time and happened
to be the right kid.
There was no sense in which,like, what he learned from being
a fish helped him pull thesword from the stone.
Like I think that would havebeen a much more satisfying kind
of story arc if somehow thelessons were lessons that helped
(36:44):
him be the right kid.
But he was just as you say, hewas just ordained.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
There's no agency, there's no growth, there's no
like growing into the court,even if his lessons were what
led him to be reinstated as thesquire.
I'm thinking of what I wassaying about how Frank Darabont
improved on the ShawshankRedemption, where the money was
from the warden's corruptionright, yes, yes, exactly.
(37:13):
If somehow, like he had provenhimself on the tournament
grounds because of to and fro,yeah, or if Hobbes had gotten
sick because of what he learnedabout germs from Madame Mim's
downfall yeah, something,something, something Instead
it's just coincidence.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
It's just luck.
And so Wart starts this movieas like a mensch.
He ends the movie as a mensch.
There's not really anything,there's no growth for this kid,
and the whole movie is about hiseducation.
But we don't actually see howit changes him, how it makes him
(37:57):
better suited to be king, howit makes him better suited to be
what has he learned it justdoesn't, yeah, he just doesn't
change, and that's unsatisfying,sort of from a storytelling
perspective.
I'm saying it now because it'salso sort of proof that Merlin's
not a great teacher.
(38:18):
Because we don't actually seeany kind of growth in his pupil.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It feels like this is not a reciprocal relationship.
For Merlin, like teaching islike parenting, where it's not
about you know father seeingkids, it's about father and kids
seeing each other.
Teaching is not about liketeacher, like imparting
knowledge.
It's about the teacher andstudents interacting with each
other and exchanging.
(38:54):
It's about an exchange so thatboth are changed by the
experience.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
In some way Changed yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Where Merlin's?
No different at the end either.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
No, merlin hasn't changed either.
Agreed, agreed.
All right, two more things Iwant to talk about and then I'll
wrap up.
So one is, I actually want totalk about the humor in this
movie because it actually isquite funny.
It was funnier when I was a kid, just for the record, but it is
quite funny.
Like Merlin's little asides arepretty funny, his sort of
(39:26):
anachronistic asides, and Wartmakes some snide asides too,
(39:55):
no-transcript.
And like merlin's kind ofbuffoonery with, especially with
his beard, he's often trying toprove, like, the merits of the
of this future that he can see.
So he has this flying machinethat's like a little airplane,
like a model airplane, and helike winds up the propeller and
(40:16):
his beard gets all caught up init and then when he throws it
because his beard was caught upin the propeller, it just
plummets down into the moatbelow and so he was trying to
prove that humans will fly inthese machines and instead, like
this thing falls.
Archimedes thinks this is thefunniest thing.
It is pretty funny, it'samusing.
But Archimedes the owl loses itand laughs for a full I don't
(40:40):
know 30, 45 seconds with thislaughter.
He can't breathe, he's tearsaway from his eyes too and he
falls down on a window sill thathe sort of falls on.
He's laughing so hard he's likegasping for breath.
That was the only time Iactually laughed out loud
watching it now as an adultbesides the no commercials thing
(41:01):
, but like he just kept goingand it was infectious and I
don't know like whoever,whatever animator or director
was like no, keep it going.
No, keep going.
Like it was the right call.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So funny.
We were just talking about this.
Our dad would tell this storywhen he saw I think it was
Blazing Saddles in the theater.
There's the scene where all thecowboys around the campfire
eating beans and farting and forwhatever reason it struck dad.
It just tickled dad and helaughed so hard that he was like
almost crying and like ourdad's laugh is kind of like that
(41:38):
, or it was kind of like thatwhere it was so like just over
and over, so infectious, justkept going and apparently on his
way out the out of the theaterhe overheard some guy saying
like it wasn't that funny, butthat jackass just laughing so
hard got me.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So it happens, it happens, it happens, yeah.
So I wanted to mention that.
So, like, good on, whatevercreative made that call, it was
the right call, sometimes thosejust staying in those moments.
(42:17):
And then the last thing Iwanted to mention actually is
the animation style.
So, as I said, like I paycloser attention to animation
than some, and one of the thingsI noticed about this one is
that has a slightly sketchy kindof a style where you can sort
of see in as the cells go,you'll see like a straight line
or things.
It's just it's a little bitsketchy, which is intentional, I
believe, although it reads alittle bit as laziness, like
(42:41):
this sort of still photos.
From the beginning I don't thinkthat it was, because there's a
lot of work put into hand-drawnanimation.
But what I but I want to nameis that it does feel a little
incongruous with the subject,like another commentator on
Disney Films, which I'll linkthis blog in the show notes
because I think that I want togive them credit.
But another commentator onDisney Blogs noted that it's a
(43:03):
similar sort of style sketchystyle to 101 Dalmatians, and
this commentator and I agreesays that 101 Dalmatians sketchy
style like works better withthe content, because it's sort
of like a more whimsical and Imean, this film isn't whimsical,
but it's sort of moreimprovisational, like with a
jazz soundtrack and you know thetiming time there's it's like a
(43:25):
yeah, time frame, it just likesort of fit the actual, like
ethos and the vibe, if you will,of the story, in a way that I'm
not sure the sketchy style fitsthis high fantasy, medieval
setting like.
I want it to be more like anengraving and less like a sketch
(43:45):
or like an illuminatedmanuscript sort of, and so that
was just something that I amsure I did not notice as a kid.
But in rewatchwatch, as I'mwatching, I'm like, oh, it's
kind of what is.
Oh, and there's also, like theyreuse like a series, like a you
know, a scene, so like when Kayis being reprimanded for having
(44:07):
let Wart go into the forest.
He's like, as I said, he's gothis feet up and he's eating meat
off of a bone and we see thesame like 30 seconds of film
like three times in the filmwhich, again, as a kid I never
noticed.
Now I'm watching and it wasanother thing that made me think
like, oh, that's kind of lazy,which again, I don't like using
(44:27):
that word.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Like I think that and I'm immediately like no, it's
smart to reuse, yeah, but, andI'm immediately like no, it's
smart to reuse.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, but my first reaction to it was oh, they're
reusing.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
That's, you know, like a shortcut of some kind.
We saw that in Disney's RobinHood too, Like there were like
some like dancing scenes withthe little kids.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, in that era I think there was a lot of that it
was also like in that era inthe 60s and 70s it was a little
bit of a nadir.
The 60s and 70s it was a littlebit of a nadir.
Oh yeah, you know like they.
Just they were still trying toand you have the talent and they
didn't have the disney wasn'tdisney, like it didn't have the
kind of the brand power that ithas today, and they were still
(45:05):
like finding their footing.
So, anyway, that was justsomething that I wanted to note
on air.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Any final thoughts before I try and wrap up, when I
got to where I was reading LeMorte d'Arthur and actual King
Arthur myths, as well as Onceand Future King and stuff like
that, I realized that Sword inthe Stone did Sir Kay and Sir
Ector wrong, because they're notjerks in the original, it
(45:35):
doesn't matter, you need.
I mean like, when you reiterateold stories, things change and
this is not like Amadeus thatreally did Moliere wrong, who
was a real person.
I I remember being like, oh no,he really was his brother and
like cared about him, about SirKay.
But that was just one thingthat I know really surprised me
(45:57):
when I like ended up likereading the myths later on the
King Arthur myths, and I wasjust like, okay, I got to make
sure I recognize that thesestories change depending on
who's telling them.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
All right, let me see if I can remember what we
talked about.
So, regarding gender, does notpass Bechdel, not even the first
question, and Madame Mim is apretty awesome female character.
The squirrels the femalesquirrels get done dirty.
It's played for laughs but it'sactually kind of not funny.
Regarding gender, we're toldthe words that Merlin says is
(46:35):
that magic won't solve all yourproblems, but then he uses them
to solve problems and there'sreally not.
There's not much of anexamination of that.
Interestingly, wart iscompletely unfazed by magic,
whereas everyone else that wemeet which is not that many
people are very phased by it.
Like, even when they're doinglike this maid, whose chores are
being done by magic, is likefreaked by it.
Like, even when they're doinglike this maid, whose chores are
being done by magic, is likefreaked out by it.
(46:57):
So that's worth noting.
In terms of storytelling, Inoted that there's no
protagonist because no one growsand changes, which is kind of
unsatisfying as an adult.
Like it feels like there's anopportunity for what Wart learns
as a fish and as a squirrel andas a bird to make him a better
(47:20):
king or better suited to be theone to be the king or win the
squire ship back or something,but it doesn't actually seem to
have any effect on himwhatsoever.
To have any effect on himwhatsoever, and that to me, is
also additional proof thatMerlin's kind of a shitty
teacher, like it's his one, likeprime directive and he's not
(47:42):
very good at it.
Like both in terms of pedagogy,because he's teaching this
medieval child 20th centuryscience which is just misplaced
and he gets mad at him for beinga medieval child and also like
none of his lessons seem to makea difference, like within the
(48:04):
story.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's not just misplaced, it's also kind of
irresponsible.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, yeah, irresponsible.
So we also noted I noted sortof there's a couple of kinds of
humor.
We get sort of theanachronistic humor which was
very charming to sort of the20th century children.
We were to have that a littlebit of a dramatic irony with
Merlin, like making includingfrom Wart, which is actually
(48:34):
really fun, and then Archimedes,like laughing for like a full
30 seconds until he's gaspingfor breath, which I couldn't
help but laugh, while this owlis like laughing his face off.
(48:56):
Forget, oh, the animation style.
There were several moments thatmy initial reaction was like oh
, that's kind of lazy, which Iimmediately questioned because
there's nothing lazy abouthand-drawn animation.
And there were shortcuts thatsort of showed up for me and
like affected my viewing of themovie, at least as an adult.
I'm pretty sure I didn't seethem as a kid.
I also noted in the verybeginning the fact that in my
mind this is paired withDisney's Robin Hood, which is 10
(49:17):
years later, in 1973, but andhas some similarities to it and
in some ways, like I find RobinHood more charming, like in part
, I found myself like expectingthe illuminated manuscript to be
animated the way that therooster bard is in Robin Hood,
because they start in similarways, with a book opening up and
a narration reading it.
(49:38):
What am I forgetting?
Oh, you talked about in terms ofthe source material.
I think that the Once andFuture King the series actually
does have Merlin's lessons, makeArthur a better king, and that
you actually see that happen.
I think that's the case.
I haven't read it, but that'smy understanding.
And you noted that in thebroader mythos of the Arthurian
(50:00):
legend, like ecosystem, thatother versions of Sir Hector and
Kay are not nearly as uncaringas this Disney version, and
that's interesting to note.
Oh, you also pointed out thefact that the sort of love is a
powerful force.
Message is not a bad message,even in a kid's movie,
(50:24):
especially within, again, theecosystem of the Arthurian
legend, where there is like apowerful love triangle that
wreaks havoc, and also that'snot actually what we saw on
screen in the squirrel vignette.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
You told me this that I didn't know.
I have an acquaintance who wentto school for animation and she
told me something that youbacked up that one of her
assignments was to draw the samecharacter 300 times each week.
And when you learned that, thatwas when you're like, oh I
don't know if I want to go toanimation school, which I had no
idea.
I had no idea that about you.
She had gone to school, I think, in the mid-80s, and so for
(51:03):
further proof that there is nosuch thing as laziness in
hand-drawn animation, like anunderstanding of how much goes
into these and why we have suchappreciation for them here, on
Deep Thoughts into these and whywe have such appreciation for
them here on Deep Thoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah Well, I did have fun watching it, so next week I
actually I switched out.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I was originally going to be talking about Golden
Girls.
I will be talking about thatsoon, but next week, because of
the recent news about StephenColbert's show being canceled,
I'm doing V for Vendetta.
We generally don't try to betopical here because you know
the production schedule doesn'tallow it, but because of what's
going on in society right now, vfor Vendetta is on my mind, so
(51:45):
I wanted to do that next week.
So Look forward to hearing yourdeep thoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
I'll see you, then this show is a labor of love,
but that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
(52:11):
Thanks for listening.
Share the show with your people.
Madame Mim is the only named female character.
She is fascinating, right Likeshe is unapologetically who she
is and in fact she's ugly.
And she says she's ugly and shenarrow waist, big hips, long
hair, like pretty face and she'slike but why would I do that?
(00:30):
She don't want it and that'skind of awesome.
Have you ever had something youlove dismissed because it's
just pop culture, what othersmight deem stupid shit?
You know matters, you know it'sworth talking and thinking
about, and so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
(00:51):
about stupid shit.
I'm Tracy Guy-Decker and you'relistening to Deep Thoughts About
Stupid Shit, because popculture is still culture, and
shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
Culture is still culture, andshouldn't you know what's in
your head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1963 Disney animated filmthe Sword in the Stone with my
(01:12):
sister, emily Guy-Burken, andwith you.
Let's dive in.
I know you saw this movie.
We watched it together a lotwhen we were kids.
I feel like it was one that wewatched with our cousin Chris.
But tell me, like what's inyour head, what comes up for you
when I mention the Sword in theStone?
So there's a couple of things.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
There's Arthur Wart.
I remember identifying with himas being like overlooked people
, underestimating him because hewas just a kid and he didn't
fit in.
Because he was just a kid andhe didn't fit in.
I remember really liking that.
I remember loving the bad guy,madame Mim, like the dark magic.
(01:55):
I just thought she was funny,this very tiny detail.
When they first meet her I feellike, or at some point in their
encounter with her she'splaying solitaire and she's
cheating, and that justdelighted me.
I remember Wart in his lessonswith Merlin being turned into
various animals.
There's a point where he says,oh, I always wished I could fly,
(02:17):
and Merlin very quietly turnshim into a bird.
I remember him being turnedinto a squirrel and there's a
lady squirrel who, like, fallsin love with him and I.
That really always reallybothered me that part of the
story because, yeah, it'sbothersome For so many reasons.
Yeah we'll talk about it.
(02:39):
When Arthur pulls the swordfrom the stone, which I also as
a very literal child and theyactually they do something about
it in the story because it'slike this, pull the sword from
the stone and anvil because theway they've drawn it it's a
sword in a stone and an anvil.
So I'm like it's not in a stone, it's in a stone with an anvil.
(03:01):
I remember like the way that itis animated is very magical.
I also recall loving the factthat once Wart has pulled it,
then Kay, his cousin,half-brother, adopted brother,
who's like big muscly guy, islike oh, anyone can pull it once
(03:23):
it's been pulled and he can'tget it.
So that was so satisfying to meas a child.
I haven't seen the movie in.
It's got to be 35 years.
That chosen one trope I findtroubling as an adult watching
now because it removes agency.
As an adult watching nowbecause it removes agency from
(03:46):
the character, there's no freewill.
So as satisfying as I foundthat moment watching it as a kid
, I think revisiting it as anadult and it's, you know, that's
not the fault of like thisDisney movie.
It's baked into the Arthur myth.
But because it stops there, wedon't even get to see like okay,
you know, all right, he's thechosen one, he's a kid, what
(04:09):
does he do with it?
You know, we don't even get tosee the like, the Neo moment of
like.
Okay, now I'm going to use mychosen one to, like, fight back
against the evil, or anything.
So tell me, why are we talkingabout Sword in the Stone?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
today.
I swapped it in for a differentanimated movie that we had on
the list for now.
We recently talked aboutBeastmaster, so I was thinking
about fantasy.
Maybe that's why it sort ofresonated more than what we had
originally planned for right now.
It was one that, like I, wastotally charmed by when we were
kids.
It really really stuck with me,and so I wanted to kind of
(04:49):
revisit it.
Regular listeners will knowthat I'm a big fan of animation.
As a, when we were watchingthis the first time, like my
aspiration, like when peoplewould say what do you want to be
when you grow up, tracy, Iwould say I want to be an
animator for Disney, and so theDisney animation remains really
close to my heart, and this onewas one that really was pretty
(05:10):
formative, and so it seemed likeit was time.
So that's why, now A few things, just some postcards from the
destination, from the analysis Iwant to talk about.
We will talk about genderbriefly.
I want to talk about magic inthis movie and the way they talk
about it versus the way itactually shows up as an element
of the story and, to your point,about sort of the chosen, one
(05:34):
kind of trope, if we have saidon Deep Thoughts and I stand by
this that one of the hallmarksof a protagonist is that they
grow and change through thestory.
And if that's the case, thereis no protagonist to this movie,
so I want to talk about that.
And what does that mean to havethis chosen one who really
(05:54):
doesn't grow, even though thewhole movie is about his
education?
So that's kind of like aninteresting tension.
You remember, madame Mim?
She is the only named femalecharacter in the whole movie.
She's pretty fantastic actually, so I want to talk about her a
little bit.
Versus Merlin, who is aterrible tutor.
He's like a really rotten,rotten mentor.
(06:18):
His owl is a better teacherthan he is, so we'll talk about
that a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Well, Al's do always have a graduation cap on, so
like you know that they'reeducated, they're just smart.
They're going to be goodteachers.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
One of the things that is interesting with Merlin
for the audience, thecontemporary audience, this is
1963.
And he has this he sort of seesthe future, which I don't think
I fully understood as a kid.
But he sees the futureincluding the 20th century, and
so he makes these references tothe 20th century, which actually
pretty funny.
There's actually a lot of humorin this movie.
There's like from Merlin butalso from Wart, actually like
(06:59):
these kind of snarky asides thatare quite funny.
And then briefly like since,since we talked about animation,
it's interesting that like agesago I don't remember which
episode we talked about Disney'sRobin Hood, which has a similar
sort of start.
It's 10 years later but it'slike more foundational in my
memory.
(07:19):
So that's kind of aninteresting thing to the way
that, as consumers, when thingsare all predate us, the order in
which we encounter them is notnecessarily the way that, as
consumers, when things are allpredate us, the order in which
we encounter them is notnecessarily the order that they
came.
And so to a certain extent,like re-watching this movie, I
was like, oh, it starts out justlike Robin Hood.
Actually it's the other wayaround.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I was.
When you said it was from 1963,I was like wait, it was.
It was my first reaction.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I was like I had no idea it was that old.
My first reaction I was like Ihad no idea it was that old,
yeah, yeah.
So let me give you a quicksynopsis.
This one, I'm not even going tosay it.
I'm going to say shenanigansand sue a lot in this synopsis
because it really is like aseries of vignettes, almost.
So it opens like Disney's RobinHood, with sort of an
(08:04):
illustration of a like anilluminated manuscript that we
open up, and so we learn thatEngland's king Uther Pendragon
has died, leaving no heir, andthere's fighting and there's
going to be a war.
But then a miracle happens andthis sword in a stone or like
appears in London and on thesword it says whosoever shall
(08:27):
pull this sword from this stonewill be the rightful king of
England, or something like that.
And everybody tries and nobodycan get it out and it just sort
of gets forgotten.
And there's England is justkind of kingless and the
narrator makes it clear that's abad thing.
England is just kind ofkingless and the narrator makes
it clear that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So you know because monarchy is the best method of
governance.
It's the best form ofgovernance, as we have proven
throughout time.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Over and, over and over again.
So that's the book.
And it's funny because I saythe Robin Hood thing.
I kept waiting for one of thelittle illuminated characters to
start talking to me, like therooster bard does in Robin Hood,
and that doesn't happen.
It actually is just like sortof still paintings which felt
(09:22):
kind of almost lazy.
It's like really obnoxious ofme as a viewer to say that, but
it really sort of felt like lazyanimation to have these like
still.
They're beautiful paintings butlike they aren't moving.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I knew you were going to start talking and singing
about Sir.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Kay and Wart wort.
So it starts being animated.
When we meet Merlin, he'spulling water from a well and he
keeps getting all tangled up inhis big long beard and
complaining about the medievalmess and how he misses modern
(10:00):
technology.
So from the get we meet him andwe see that he like has
knowledge of our time but issort of in this medieval time
and is just a little bitbumbling Like he's got this
beard that goes almost to hisknees and it keeps getting
tangled up and stuff.
So he goes back to this littlethatch roof cottage which is
(10:21):
like maximal, with like crapeverywhere and he's making tea
and like arranging the house.
And he starts talking to hisowl, archimedes, who is a
intelligent talking owl Just gowith it.
And he's expecting someone andthey're going to drop in for tea
(10:41):
and he tells us it's a youngboy.
And then he's like envisioningand we see, like in his like
thought cloud we see Kay who isthe adoptive brother.
He's a lunk of a man, like justa total meathead, and Merlin
says, oh no, that can't be him.
And then behind him comes thisscrawny little thing about 11.
(11:02):
That's who we're waiting forand Merlin doesn't know why.
Yet Kay the lunkhead is huntingwith an arrow, with a bow and
arrow.
He's hunting a deer and Wartaccidentally messes up his shot
and the arrow goes way up, highand down into the forest and
Kay's like gonna, he's chasingafter W Wart we don't know his
(11:25):
name yet and is like really madat him for messing up his shot.
And Wart says it's okay, I'mgonna go get the arrow.
And Kay says you can't go inthere, there are wolves in that
forest.
And Wart says I'm not scared,I'm gonna go get your arrow.
So Kay says whatever, you knowI don't remember exactly how he
says it, but basically, likeyour funeral is a sentiment.
(11:47):
So we watch Wart go into theforest and a scrawny wolf takes
interest in him immediately.
Wart is just wandering theforest and he sees the arrow.
It's stuck up in a tree.
He climbs up the tree to getthe arrow, a branch breaks and
he falls through the thatchedroof exactly onto the chair that
Merlin has left for him.
(12:08):
So now the two meet each other.
Merlin doesn't know why thisboy's important, but he knows he
is.
We learn his name.
My name's Arthur, but everybodycalls me the Wart.
Merlin says that's anunfortunate nickname.
So the three of them meet.
Archimedes and Merlin and Wartmeet and Wart is very polite,
not at all scared by the magic,like there's a little sugar dish
(12:31):
with a spoon and his little lidthat he uses as a hat, that
like moves around the table andlike puts sugar into the tea and
stops when the person says whenand like.
Wart is not freaked out by thisat all, which I think is
significant.
Wirt is not freaked out by thisat all, which I think is
significant.
He's not freaked out byArchimedes either.
He thinks he's a stuffed owlinitially and Archimedes gets
(12:52):
offended.
But even when he gets offendedit's not like oh my God, a
talking owl, it's just like, oh,I'm sorry, I didn't mean to
hurt your feelings, he justtakes it in stride.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
That's kind of the definition of Wirt.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
So he kind of is yeah .
So Merlin says I'm going toteach you.
And Wirt's like, okay, I meanwhat?
Merlin's like you know, I'mgoing to give you an education.
And you know we learn that Wirtis an orphan and like that's
not a thing that he can do.
He has to get back to thecastle because he has duties.
(13:30):
And Merlin's like, ok, I'llcome with you.
And then we see the first, likebig magic, where he has this
weird little incantation that hesort of sings with lots of
bippity, boppities and like allof the maximalist stuff that's
in this little cottage likeshrinks down, tiny, and goes
into a carpet bag.
And Wart is charmed by this,but again, not phased.
So then they set out andMerlin's like giving this speech
(13:52):
about like how important it isto have a direction, and it's
like and like do the things.
And then they're like stridingpurposefully through the forest
like up hills and over dales,meanwhile the scrawny wolf
chasing them, trying to eat thewart, like totally missing him.
The two humans are completelyoblivious to the wolf.
Finally, merlin like runs outof breath in his like monologue
(14:17):
about the importance ofdirection and says where is this
castle, by the way?
And Ward says, oh, it'sactually the other way.
So they turn around and stridethe other way and the poor wolf
is like, exhausted and thwarted,cut to the castle where Sir
Ector, who is the adoptivefather, is berating Kay who
(14:38):
couldn't care less, is likeeating meat off a bone with his
feet up.
And Ector's like how could youlet him go into the forest?
He's a scrawny little thing.
And Kay's like I'm not thewarts keeper.
And Ector's like why I am LikeI said I would take care of him.
And how could you?
I'm like he's going to, he'sgonna, he's gonna die.
And k's like what if he does?
You know?
(14:59):
Like it's really.
K is not a good guy, so andector's not, actually doesn't,
actually care, doesn't seem toactually care about the child's
well-being, just his, hisreputation status, I guess yeah,
that's kind of how I read it.
So Merlin and Wart march in.
Hector yells at Wart and giveshim demerits for having worried
(15:23):
him half to death.
And then Merlin introduceshimself.
He's in boarding school, yeah,and he's going to have
punishments for these demerits.
We hear that a lot.
He gets a lot of demerits inthis movie and Merlin and Hector
kind of face off and Hector'slike you're not welcome here
with your magic.
And Merlin like disappears.
(15:45):
And Hector's like oh, I madehim go away.
And then you hear Merlin'svoice is like did you?
I could still be here, youdon't even know.
So if I leave or if I don't,you never know if I'm really
gone.
And Hector's like okay, you canstay.
And he puts Merlin up in the Iwant to say the West Tower.
It doesn't really matter, it'sthis like dilapidated tower that
(16:07):
like half it's going to falldown any second.
Hector says it's a little bitdrafty in the winter, but in the
summer it's the best, best roomin the house.
So we see later we see Merlinin this tower room like sticking
umbrellas up through holes inthe roof.
So these anachronisms happenover and over again.
(16:27):
And then Sir Pelennor arrivesand we hear him arriving and
there's another like sort ofanachronistic joke where Merlin
says I can't wait for the LondonTimes because that won't be
published for over a thousandyears and he asks Archimedes to
fly down and listen.
So it turns out they're goingto have a tournament on New
Year's Day and the winner of thetournament will be crowned king
.
And so actors like okay, you'reup to be knighted at Christmas
(16:53):
time.
You should, you know, stick toyour training and then you could
be in this tournament and Wartwill be your squire, and Wart's
really excited about that.
So that's sort of like a framestory.
There's this tournament comingon New Year's Day Right now it's
still summertime.
So we see Wart helping with thenight training.
(17:15):
Kay is terrible at it and likethe static horse that he's like
jousting against, keeps knockinghim off his horse.
And Merlin comes and finds himand is like hey, you know, let's
, I want to give you a lesson.
And Wart's like I got stuff todo.
And Merlin convinces him to go.
So they go for a walk and theyend up at the moat and Merlin
(17:40):
turns him into a fish andthey're swimming in the moat and
I suppose it's meant to bephysics.
There's like a little song thatthey sing like to and fro, stop
and go, that's what makes theworld go round.
Oh, my goodness, I rememberthat.
It is a bit of a musical, butlike not a high production
musical.
It's like just these two kindof thin voices with this child
(18:03):
and this old man.
So they have a great timeswimming until this pike takes
interest in little wart and isgoing to eat him and Merlin's
like kind of stuck in a helmetfrom like a suit of armor and
he's like brain over brawn.
My boy like outthink him.
And so Wart does a little bitbut like just eventually like
(18:27):
he's tired and like the pikealmost gets him and he's like
jumping up out of the water andArchimedes actually saves him,
finally gets turned back into ahuman and I don't like I don't
know what the lesson was.
Anyway, he we see him sort ofthen explaining to Hector and
Kay what happened.
They do not believe him.
(18:48):
More demerits, and by the way,the demerits come with kitchen
duty.
So doing dishes is thepunishment that feels a little
bit important for some of thelessons that we were taking.
So he's stuck doing like Idon't know, like a kingdom's
worth of dishes, like the onlyhumans we see in this castle.
(19:08):
Besides, we see Wart, kay,hector, and then we meet a maid
later and Merlin, but there'sdishes like there's like a
hundred people eating Anyway.
So Ward's cleaning dishes.
He's like singing his little toand fro song and Merlin's like,
hey, let's have another lesson.
He's like, no, look at allthese dishes.
I got to do so, even thoughMerlin told us from the very
(19:30):
beginning, when he made all ofhis stuff small and to fit into
the carpet bag, he said magiccan't solve all your problems.
But now he's solving hisproblem with magic because he
enchants the dishes to dothemselves and they're like they
set up like an assembly lineand they're like washing
themselves.
And so the two, merlin and thewart, leave the kitchen.
(19:51):
Next time we see them they'resquirrels and they're like
jumping through the trees andWart is just like running and
leaping and like not thinkingfirst, and Merlin's like very
carefully, like jumping andstill missing, and you know
that's kind of cute.
And then, what you remember, afemale squirrel takes interest
in Wart and she will not take nofor an answer.
(20:13):
She has decided that he is hermate.
And we learn from Merlin thatsquirrels mate for life.
And Merlin thinks this is veryfunny, like very funny, until
another female squirrel takes aninterest in Merlin.
And there are some funny momentswhere, like, wart is saying to
(20:34):
the squirrel, like I'm not a boy, I'm a squirrel.
No, I mean, I'm not a squirrel,I'm a boy, a human boy.
And then later Merlin's likeI'm not a boy, so a really sort
of bizarre thing that Wolf fromthe beginning comes back and
almost eats Wart, squirrel Wart,but female squirrel, who has
the hots for wart, saves him,actually like biting on the
(20:56):
wolf's ankles and stuff, andmerlin finally turns himself
back into a human to dissuadethe female squirrel that's into
him and then turns wart backinto a human and the little
squirrel that saved his life islike heartbroken, like we see
tears, like, and she and she'slike has this little like
(21:16):
whimper, like like it's really,really sad, like it's actually
quite bothersome and the lessonfrom that was not physics but
about love, which is morepowerful than magic, merlin
tells us Meanwhile the maid whodoes not have a name like freaks
out because the dishes arewashing themselves.
(21:38):
Which, girlfriend?
Speaker 2 (21:41):
pause a second here do not look a gift self-washing
dish in the mouth like you seethat happening.
You turn around, you go back,you put your feet up yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So she freaks out, sir, actor and k come in and
they're like fighting the dishesand like losing badly, like
break their swords and get likeknocked into buckets and stuff.
So we're.
And merlin come back in andlike this is black magic of the
worst kind.
How dare you?
And Merlin's like washingdishes is black magic.
(22:22):
Anyway, wart gets more demerits.
The maid is like don't you darecome near my kitchen again,
which again, girlfriend, that'syour kitchen.
Like what are you doing?
And Merlin feels real bad aboutlike getting him in trouble and
in fact Wart loses thesquireship and Hector gives it
(22:46):
to Hobbs, another kid, becauseWart talks back to him.
He says Merlin's a good person,he's not bad and it's not bad
magic, it's awesome and whatever.
He talks back to Hector and, asa result, gets like I don't
know a hundred demerits orsomething and he loses the
squireship and he's very upsetand merlin feels really bad.
But whatever, now you have moretime for your studies.
(23:06):
Then they get turned into birdsand archimedes teaches him to
fly and a hawk shows up and likeat this point, like maybe look
around for predators before youturn the kid into an animal.
So, running from the hawk, heends up in Madam Mim's cottage.
(23:26):
So she says she's the greatestmagician, but she's a black
magician.
Archimedes flies in, realizesMadam Mim goes and gets Merlin.
Merlin comes back, they have awizard's duel where they make
some rules which Mim immediatelybreaks.
Ultimately Merlin wins thewizard's duel by becoming a germ
(23:52):
and making her sick.
So then we sort of fast forwardand the tournament is coming and
Hobbes, who had been given thesquireship, is sick.
So Wart gets it back.
He goes to Merlin.
He's like look, I'm a squire.
I'm a squire.
He's wearing this like tunicthat's way too big for him.
And Archimedes is like that'sgreat boy.
And Merlin is like why wouldyou do that?
And he's like kind of yells athim.
(24:14):
Merlin is like why would you dothat?
And he's like kind of yells athim.
And Wirt's like what do youwant from me?
I'm an orphan, I'm poor, thisis it, this is as good as it
gets for me.
And Merlin just gets reallyfrustrated and says blow me to
Bermuda and leaves.
So they go to London.
Archimedes sticks with.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Wirt.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
And they go to London and it's the middle of the
tournament and Kay's up next andWart realizes he's forgotten
Kay's sword back at the inn.
He goes back to the inn to tryand get it but it's locked up
because everybody's at thetournament.
And Archimedes says oh wait,look, there's a sword over in
that churchyard.
And they go over there andArchimedes is like maybe you
should leave this alone.
(24:53):
And Wart's like no, I need asword for Kay.
So he like pulls his sword outof the anvil and like golden
light bathes down on him.
He takes it back to thetournament grounds.
Ector immediately recognizeswhat it is.
Wart says where he got it andnobody believes him.
So they go back to thechurchyard and they stick it
(25:13):
back in this thing and he goesto take it out again.
And that's when the thing youremember k is like anybody can
pull it.
Once it's been pulled, k can'tpull it.
Other people try, finally, likesome stranger with a beard's,
like I say let the boy try.
And other people like yeah,that's what I say.
So arthur pulls it again,bathed in gold light, it comes
out and so ector immediatelykneels, apologizes for treating
(25:35):
him bad, makes Kay kneel to hisking.
And then we cut to the throneroom and this scrawny little boy
is wearing like the ermine andthe crown and he is miserable.
And Archimedes is with him.
He's by himself, just him andthe owl.
And he's like what am I goingto do?
And Archimedes is like can yousneak out the side door?
And he tries, but when he opensthe door you hear the crowds
(25:58):
going long live King Arthur.
And he's like well, let's trythis other door.
Long live King Arthur.
So he's like stuck and he says,well, I wish Merlin were here.
And apparently, having said hisname, he's like Beetlejuice and
he shows back up wearing Bermudashorts and he says the 20th
century isn't as cool as Ithought.
And then he or as I rememberedsomething like that.
(26:19):
And then Merlin realizes he'sKing Arthur of the round and he
says something about a roundtable and Arthur's like round.
And he's like well, would youprefer square?
And Arthur's like no, round isfine.
Merlin says you are going to bethe stuff of legends.
They're going to write booksabout you and histories about
you and, who knows, they mayeven make a motion picture.
So it's like a reference to themovie we're watching, where it
(26:40):
says what's a motion picture andMerlin says it's kind of like
television, but withoutcommercials, which was very
funny when I was watching it,because I have Disney Plus
supported by commercials, so Ijust watched the movie with
commercials.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
And that's the end of the movie.
Commercials.
And that's the end of the movie.
So shenanigans, many, so manyshenanigans so where were so
many shenanigans?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
I'm going to start with gender because it's easy we
can get out of the way.
This does not pass the bechdeltest.
So reminder are the bechdeltest from allison bechdel are
there at least two?
Named female characters no wecan stop there.
Do they speak to each other na?
Do they speak to each otherabout something other than?
Speaker 2 (27:14):
a man or a boy?
Speaker 1 (27:15):
NA, so it does not pass back time, so that's
interesting.
And Madam Mim is the only namedfemale character.
She is fascinating, right, likeshe is unapologetically who she
is and in fact she's ugly.
And she says she's ugly andshe's short and she's like round
and she has like funny hair.
(27:36):
She says I can be beautiful andshe makes herself beautiful and
the way they draw her when shesays that is like big boobs,
narrow waist, big hips, longhair, like pretty face and she's
like but why would I do that?
She don't want it and that'skind of awesome.
You know she don't want it andthat's kind of awesome.
(27:56):
And she like she's just likeclever and like interesting.
And the thing you rememberabout her you know playing
solitaire, like I don't know.
There's something like reallyfun about her.
So if we only got one, I'm kindof glad it was, madame Mim.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Kind of like the, you talk about feminine archetype,
she is kind of the witch, I meanshe's the.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
She's a witch and a crone.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Yeah, she's like both Like the zero fucks to give
postmenopausal.
Like I am not dealing with thisman's bullshit, breaking the
rules, like it's kind of that.
Like oh, this white dude, it'skind of that like oh, this white
dude, sure, you can make rules,fine.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
Do whatever, except she's the one who makes the
rules.
She's the one who makes therules All right, fair enough.
It's not him.
She makes them to break them.
Fair enough, yeah, yeah, so wegot that out of the way, like I
actually don't have anythingelse to say about gender in this
one.
Well, actually I do, I do thesquirrels, the squirrels.
(29:03):
So there are four femalecharacters total.
There's the maid, who is kindof hag-ish.
There's Madame Mim, who isabsolutely a hag.
There's Madame Mim, who isabsolutely a hag.
And then there are these twosquirrels who are very like
sensual, sexual, lovestruckcreatures who like really get
the raw end of the deal, andalso they're chasing these two
(29:25):
male squirrels who are clearlynot interested, which in one
sense, like it's a little bitrefreshing, because usually
these movies it's the other wayaround and the female squirrel,
or human, is like eventuallyjust worn down and falls in love
anyway.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
But it's not okay when it happens in any direction
.
It's also a male fantasy.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, and I don't have the words for it, but
watching it this time, there wassomething disturbing about this
picture of femininity that wasso oblivious and just lovesick,
sex crazed like crazy that's allthere was to it.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, that's the sum total of the personality, and
there was something disturbingabout that, especially thinking
about, like you and me, aslittle kids watching well, and
the the fact that merlin'slesson is love is stronger than
magic, which I don't think isnecessarily like, and
considering the arthur legendand includes guinevere and
(30:27):
lancelot and that love triangle,and that is the only thing that
causes lancelot to not be likea perfect knight, and all of
that that is within the story ofthe original myth.
So I think that's actually aworthwhile lesson within a
(30:47):
children's movie, except thatit's at the expense.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
It's at the expense of these two creatures female
creatures female life and italso was not actually the lesson
.
He called it love.
That's not what we saw on thescreen.
What we saw on the screen wasattraction.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
It's messy, it's messy and it's, and it was
playful.
That's really what it comes tois.
It's the fact that we are givena chance to feel pity for the
squirrel that fell for wart, butoverall, the entire thing is
played for slapstick for both ofthese squirrels.
(31:28):
And isn't it so funny how boycrazy girls are, rather than it
being like.
Love is a force more powerfulthan magic, which I think is is
a worthwhile thing to thinkabout, think about and tell
children about and say like becautious, recognize that this is
(31:48):
that love is a powerful forceand it can cause people to do
things that are irrational andcan really, really hurt people.
So be cautious.
Yeah, yeah, I remember alwaysfeeling terrible for that poor
squirrel who we watched her cryand she risked her life.
(32:09):
She risked her life to save.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Wart.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
And the fact that Merlin says squirrel's mate for
life, which I don't know ifthat's true or not.
I don't either.
I didn't look it up, but Merlintells in the universe of this
animation, and so I'm sittingthere going like this poor
heartbroken squirrel is going to, for the rest of her life, be
lonely well made for lifedoesn't mean mate once.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
I mean, the squirrel that she was in love with is
dead.
Yeah, because he's a boy.
Yeah, a human boy.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
I think the widow can find another squirrel well,
that's not how it works for likeswans who make for life.
If they're, yeah, if their matedies, they're done yeah, poor
swans so that's just, I'm like,just a little romantic emily as
an eight-year-old justremembered, like I remember,
like through that being like,I'm feeling for the squirrel and
(33:05):
feeling for wart, knowing thatas a little menschley boy,
knowing he'd, he'd have a pangfor her he does, he says, like I
tried to tell you and knowingevery once in a while.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
He actually feels bad .
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Every once in a while , he'd be thinking about this
world, going like I'm sorry, youknow.
Yeah, as a king, going likemaybe I could leave some acorns
for her, yeah, so.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
So let me talk about Merlin for a second.
So let me talk about Merlin fora second.
So, like as a kid, thereferences to the 20th century
were hilarious.
They were so funny.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
I remember the Bermuda shorts charming me.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, I was really charmed by the references to the
20th century.
Or, like I can't wait for theLondon Times.
Or like you know, he talksabout helicopters and even the
mention of television andwhatever.
Like I was very, very charmedby that anachronism.
It's kind of like a dramaticirony which you love.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Which.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
I love.
But within the universe it'sactually kind of annoying and
irresponsible.
Like at one point he's teachingWart and he talks about how
we're going to discover that theworld is round, and Wart's like
you mean it's going to becomeround?
He's like no, no, it's roundright now.
And Archimedes is like if hegoes around saying that the
(34:22):
world is round now, people aregoing to think he's a lunatic,
he can't handle it.
Like stop, you can't give this11th century kid, 20th century
or whatever, I don't even knowif it's 11th century, but you
can't do this.
And so Archimedes takes over astutor.
Archimedes isn't a great tutoreither because, like work, can't
(34:46):
read.
And so Archimedes is teachinghim the alphabet and he's like
writing on a chalkboard and he'snot doing a great job.
He does some letters backwardsand Archimedes like smacks him
on the head and like says can'tyou get anything right?
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Like he's not a great tutor either.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
But better than Merlin.
You know I didn't see that as akid, that sort of he's not a
great mentor.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
no-transcript it's more of a straight fantasy story
.
There's not the humor or thereferences.
Like I think, merlin can seethe future but he doesn't travel
, doesn't have time travel,because this disney and he
doesn't make humorous references, he just knows yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
So what I was getting at in terms of storytelling and
he's a teacher is that what'smissing from this film?
Like we have these vignettes oflike he turns them into a bunch
of different animals, andwhat's missing is how those
experiences actually change andteach Wart.
There's no evidence of that.
Like I think it would have beenmuch more satisfied.
(36:20):
So we see him pull the swordfrom the stone.
He was just in the right placeat the right time and happened
to be the right kid.
There was no sense in which,like, what he learned from being
a fish helped him pull thesword from the stone.
Like I think that would havebeen a much more satisfying kind
of story arc if somehow thelessons were lessons that helped
(36:44):
him be the right kid.
But he was just as you say, hewas just ordained.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
There's no agency, there's no growth, there's no
like growing into the court,even if his lessons were what
led him to be reinstated as thesquire.
I'm thinking of what I wassaying about how Frank Darabont
improved on the ShawshankRedemption, where the money was
from the warden's corruptionright, yes, yes, exactly.
(37:13):
If somehow, like he had provenhimself on the tournament
grounds because of to and fro,yeah, or if Hobbes had gotten
sick because of what he learnedabout germs from Madame Mim's
downfall yeah, something,something, something Instead
it's just coincidence.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
It's just luck.
And so Wart starts this movieas like a mensch.
He ends the movie as a mensch.
There's not really anything,there's no growth for this kid,
and the whole movie is about hiseducation.
But we don't actually see howit changes him, how it makes him
(37:57):
better suited to be king, howit makes him better suited to be
what has he learned it justdoesn't, yeah, he just doesn't
change, and that's unsatisfying,sort of from a storytelling
perspective.
I'm saying it now because it'salso sort of proof that Merlin's
not a great teacher.
(38:18):
Because we don't actually seeany kind of growth in his pupil.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It feels like this is not a reciprocal relationship.
For Merlin, like teaching islike parenting, where it's not
about you know father seeingkids, it's about father and kids
seeing each other.
Teaching is not about liketeacher, like imparting
knowledge.
It's about the teacher andstudents interacting with each
other and exchanging.
(38:54):
It's about an exchange so thatboth are changed by the
experience.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
In some way Changed yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Where Merlin's?
No different at the end either.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
No, merlin hasn't changed either.
Agreed, agreed.
All right, two more things Iwant to talk about and then I'll
wrap up.
So one is, I actually want totalk about the humor in this
movie because it actually isquite funny.
It was funnier when I was a kid, just for the record, but it is
quite funny.
Like Merlin's little asides arepretty funny, his sort of
(39:26):
anachronistic asides, and Wartmakes some snide asides too,
(39:55):
no-transcript.
And like merlin's kind ofbuffoonery with, especially with
his beard, he's often trying toprove, like, the merits of the
of this future that he can see.
So he has this flying machinethat's like a little airplane,
like a model airplane, and helike winds up the propeller and
(40:16):
his beard gets all caught up init and then when he throws it
because his beard was caught upin the propeller, it just
plummets down into the moatbelow and so he was trying to
prove that humans will fly inthese machines and instead, like
this thing falls.
Archimedes thinks this is thefunniest thing.
It is pretty funny, it'samusing.
But Archimedes the owl loses itand laughs for a full I don't
(40:40):
know 30, 45 seconds with thislaughter.
He can't breathe, he's tearsaway from his eyes too and he
falls down on a window sill thathe sort of falls on.
He's laughing so hard he's likegasping for breath.
That was the only time Iactually laughed out loud
watching it now as an adultbesides the no commercials thing
(41:01):
, but like he just kept goingand it was infectious and I
don't know like whoever,whatever animator or director
was like no, keep it going.
No, keep going.
Like it was the right call.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So funny.
We were just talking about this.
Our dad would tell this storywhen he saw I think it was
Blazing Saddles in the theater.
There's the scene where all thecowboys around the campfire
eating beans and farting and forwhatever reason it struck dad.
It just tickled dad and helaughed so hard that he was like
almost crying and like ourdad's laugh is kind of like that
(41:38):
, or it was kind of like thatwhere it was so like just over
and over, so infectious, justkept going and apparently on his
way out the out of the theaterhe overheard some guy saying
like it wasn't that funny, butthat jackass just laughing so
hard got me.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
So it happens, it happens, it happens, yeah.
So I wanted to mention that.
So, like, good on, whatevercreative made that call, it was
the right call, sometimes thosejust staying in those moments.
(42:17):
And then the last thing Iwanted to mention actually is
the animation style.
So, as I said, like I paycloser attention to animation
than some, and one of the thingsI noticed about this one is
that has a slightly sketchy kindof a style where you can sort
of see in as the cells go,you'll see like a straight line
or things.
It's just it's a little bitsketchy, which is intentional, I
believe, although it reads alittle bit as laziness, like
(42:41):
this sort of still photos.
From the beginning I don't thinkthat it was, because there's a
lot of work put into hand-drawnanimation.
But what I but I want to nameis that it does feel a little
incongruous with the subject,like another commentator on
Disney Films, which I'll linkthis blog in the show notes
because I think that I want togive them credit.
But another commentator onDisney Blogs noted that it's a
(43:03):
similar sort of style sketchystyle to 101 Dalmatians, and
this commentator and I agreesays that 101 Dalmatians sketchy
style like works better withthe content, because it's sort
of like a more whimsical and Imean, this film isn't whimsical,
but it's sort of moreimprovisational, like with a
jazz soundtrack and you know thetiming time there's it's like a
(43:25):
yeah, time frame, it just likesort of fit the actual, like
ethos and the vibe, if you will,of the story, in a way that I'm
not sure the sketchy style fitsthis high fantasy, medieval
setting like.
I want it to be more like anengraving and less like a sketch
(43:45):
or like an illuminatedmanuscript sort of, and so that
was just something that I amsure I did not notice as a kid.
But in rewatchwatch, as I'mwatching, I'm like, oh, it's
kind of what is.
Oh, and there's also, like theyreuse like a series, like a you
know, a scene, so like when Kayis being reprimanded for having
(44:07):
let Wart go into the forest.
He's like, as I said, he's gothis feet up and he's eating meat
off of a bone and we see thesame like 30 seconds of film
like three times in the filmwhich, again, as a kid I never
noticed.
Now I'm watching and it wasanother thing that made me think
like, oh, that's kind of lazy,which again, I don't like using
(44:27):
that word.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
Like I think that and I'm immediately like no, it's
smart to reuse, yeah, but, andI'm immediately like no, it's
smart to reuse.
Speaker 1 (44:32):
Yeah, but my first reaction to it was oh, they're
reusing.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
That's, you know, like a shortcut of some kind.
We saw that in Disney's RobinHood too, Like there were like
some like dancing scenes withthe little kids.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Yeah, in that era I think there was a lot of that it
was also like in that era inthe 60s and 70s it was a little
bit of a nadir.
The 60s and 70s it was a littlebit of a nadir.
Oh yeah, you know like they.
Just they were still trying toand you have the talent and they
didn't have the disney wasn'tdisney, like it didn't have the
kind of the brand power that ithas today, and they were still
(45:05):
like finding their footing.
So, anyway, that was justsomething that I wanted to note
on air.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Any final thoughts before I try and wrap up, when I
got to where I was reading LeMorte d'Arthur and actual King
Arthur myths, as well as Onceand Future King and stuff like
that, I realized that Sword inthe Stone did Sir Kay and Sir
Ector wrong, because they're notjerks in the original, it
(45:35):
doesn't matter, you need.
I mean like, when you reiterateold stories, things change and
this is not like Amadeus thatreally did Moliere wrong, who
was a real person.
I I remember being like, oh no,he really was his brother and
like cared about him, about SirKay.
But that was just one thingthat I know really surprised me
(45:57):
when I like ended up likereading the myths later on the
King Arthur myths, and I wasjust like, okay, I got to make
sure I recognize that thesestories change depending on
who's telling them.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
All right, let me see if I can remember what we
talked about.
So, regarding gender, does notpass Bechdel, not even the first
question, and Madame Mim is apretty awesome female character.
The squirrels the femalesquirrels get done dirty.
It's played for laughs but it'sactually kind of not funny.
Regarding gender, we're toldthe words that Merlin says is
(46:35):
that magic won't solve all yourproblems, but then he uses them
to solve problems and there'sreally not.
There's not much of anexamination of that.
Interestingly, wart iscompletely unfazed by magic,
whereas everyone else that wemeet which is not that many
people are very phased by it.
Like, even when they're doinglike this maid, whose chores are
being done by magic, is likefreaked by it.
Like, even when they're doinglike this maid, whose chores are
being done by magic, is likefreaked out by it.
(46:57):
So that's worth noting.
In terms of storytelling, Inoted that there's no
protagonist because no one growsand changes, which is kind of
unsatisfying as an adult.
Like it feels like there's anopportunity for what Wart learns
as a fish and as a squirrel andas a bird to make him a better
(47:20):
king or better suited to be theone to be the king or win the
squire ship back or something,but it doesn't actually seem to
have any effect on himwhatsoever.
To have any effect on himwhatsoever, and that to me, is
also additional proof thatMerlin's kind of a shitty
teacher, like it's his one, likeprime directive and he's not
(47:42):
very good at it.
Like both in terms of pedagogy,because he's teaching this
medieval child 20th centuryscience which is just misplaced
and he gets mad at him for beinga medieval child and also like
none of his lessons seem to makea difference, like within the
(48:04):
story.
Speaker 2 (48:04):
It's not just misplaced, it's also kind of
irresponsible.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yeah, yeah, irresponsible.
So we also noted I noted sortof there's a couple of kinds of
humor.
We get sort of theanachronistic humor which was
very charming to sort of the20th century children.
We were to have that a littlebit of a dramatic irony with
Merlin, like making includingfrom Wart, which is actually
(48:34):
really fun, and then Archimedes,like laughing for like a full
30 seconds until he's gaspingfor breath, which I couldn't
help but laugh, while this owlis like laughing his face off.
(48:56):
Forget, oh, the animation style.
There were several moments thatmy initial reaction was like oh
, that's kind of lazy, which Iimmediately questioned because
there's nothing lazy abouthand-drawn animation.
And there were shortcuts thatsort of showed up for me and
like affected my viewing of themovie, at least as an adult.
I'm pretty sure I didn't seethem as a kid.
I also noted in the verybeginning the fact that in my
mind this is paired withDisney's Robin Hood, which is 10
(49:17):
years later, in 1973, but andhas some similarities to it and
in some ways, like I find RobinHood more charming, like in part
, I found myself like expectingthe illuminated manuscript to be
animated the way that therooster bard is in Robin Hood,
because they start in similarways, with a book opening up and
a narration reading it.
(49:38):
What am I forgetting?
Oh, you talked about in terms ofthe source material.
I think that the Once andFuture King the series actually
does have Merlin's lessons, makeArthur a better king, and that
you actually see that happen.
I think that's the case.
I haven't read it, but that'smy understanding.
And you noted that in thebroader mythos of the Arthurian
(50:00):
legend, like ecosystem, thatother versions of Sir Hector and
Kay are not nearly as uncaringas this Disney version, and
that's interesting to note.
Oh, you also pointed out thefact that the sort of love is a
powerful force.
Message is not a bad message,even in a kid's movie,
(50:24):
especially within, again, theecosystem of the Arthurian
legend, where there is like apowerful love triangle that
wreaks havoc, and also that'snot actually what we saw on
screen in the squirrel vignette.
Speaker 2 (50:39):
You told me this that I didn't know.
I have an acquaintance who wentto school for animation and she
told me something that youbacked up that one of her
assignments was to draw the samecharacter 300 times each week.
And when you learned that, thatwas when you're like, oh I
don't know if I want to go toanimation school, which I had no
idea.
I had no idea that about you.
She had gone to school, I think, in the mid-80s, and so for
(51:03):
further proof that there is nosuch thing as laziness in
hand-drawn animation, like anunderstanding of how much goes
into these and why we have suchappreciation for them here, on
Deep Thoughts into these and whywe have such appreciation for
them here on Deep Thoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah Well, I did have fun watching it, so next week I
actually I switched out.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
I was originally going to be talking about Golden
Girls.
I will be talking about thatsoon, but next week, because of
the recent news about StephenColbert's show being canceled,
I'm doing V for Vendetta.
We generally don't try to betopical here because you know
the production schedule doesn'tallow it, but because of what's
going on in society right now, vfor Vendetta is on my mind, so
(51:45):
I wanted to do that next week.
So Look forward to hearing yourdeep thoughts.
Speaker 1 (51:49):
I'll see you, then this show is a labor of love,
but that doesn't make it free toproduce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people.
(52:11):
Thanks for listening.
Share the show with your people.
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