Draw me like one of your French girls...
This week, Emily finally introduces Tracie to the pop culture juggernaut Titanic, which the elder Guy sister somehow completely missed. Even in 1997, Emily appreciated how the spectacle, costumes, special effects, and even the storytelling serve writer and director James Cameron's purpose, because the rich girl/poor boy romance allows us to see the entire ship.
But Cameron's purpose doesn't seem to amount to anything more than "this is a thing that happened." Like Cameron's occasional pop culture examination of social class, feminism, and mental health within the 3+ hour runtime, the film shows us things that happened with no moral, thesis, or commentary. Which is why Emily appreciates a fan theory that Jack is actually a trans man. This puts a different spin on the relationship, turning Jack from a Manic Pixie Dream Boy who is practically perfect to a kindred spirit who understands being trapped by society.
No matter your opinion about Jack's ability to fit on that door, throw on your headphones and take a listen!
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The third-class passengers have to go through a
health check where they'rechecking for lice for them,
whereas the first-classpassengers don't.
We see how tiny the rooms arein steerage, whereas Rose and
Cal's staterooms are enormous.
It's just huge, huge classdifferences.
This is post-production, emily.
(00:22):
I'm here with a little meaculpa.
This is post-production, emily.
I'm here with a little meaculpa.
Throughout the episode you'reabout to listen to, I keep
saying the Titanic sank in 1915.
It sank in 1912.
For some reason, I got my datesmixed up, I think, because it
sank on April 15th.
(00:42):
I got it stuck in my head thatit was 1915.
Please excuse the error.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Other than that, I think you're in for a great
episode.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about, and so do we
, so come overthink with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 blockbuster filmTitanic with my sister, tracy
(01:32):
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in, literally.
So, tracy, I know you haven'tseen this film, but you can't
have missed it in the zeitgeist.
Tell me what you know about it.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, I don't need to see it.
That's why I never have.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's also a million years long, like a million.
Like I started watching itthree months ago.
I'm still not done watching it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Right.
So what I know about this film,james Cameron it was like very
important to him that this besort of historically accurate.
So he studied all of like thephotographs and even I went to
this museum exhibit that I thinkwas at national geographic like
seven or eight years ago, thatlike had like some of the
science of the like finding thewreck and like what they found
(02:19):
at the bottom of the sea andplus the movie, plus like the
recreations of some of the stuffthat had been on the ship.
So I know that there was a lotof like attention to historical
accuracy for this film.
I know about Rose and Jack andthey like connected across a
class divide and she was likeengaged or something to some
(02:41):
blowhard, to some blowhard, andhe was an artist and like below
her station, class-wise, and atsome point she says draw me like
one of your French girls, andafter they're all in the water,
like she's on a door floatingand he's like somehow like
(03:03):
holding on to the door and likesacrifices himself to let go.
And I know there's a hugedebate in the culture as to
whether or not there was in factroom on the door for Jack.
And yeah, I guess that's it.
That's what I know.
That's what I know.
So why are we talking aboutthis historically accurate, very
(03:23):
, very long movie from the late90s?
that everyone in the world hasseen besides me.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So this movie came out.
We recently talked aboutanother blockbuster from 97 that
you didn't see.
In my defense 1997, I was inEngland for half the year as my
senior semester abroad and thenI was graduating from college,
so seeing movies was not exactlymy like top, but anyway carry
on, and that's actually I bringthat up because you were not in
(03:55):
a point in your life wheregetting to the movie theater was
a priority, so that's why Ibring that up.
Whereas I was in the midst ofmy like, movies were my thing.
I went to them weekly.
Sometimes I'd see more than onemovie a week.
That was what I did in highschool, so this was one actually
(04:16):
.
When it came out, I remembersaying like I'm not sure I want
to see that.
It looks really depressing.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I mean, you already know what happens, right, I know
how it ends.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
But you know, everyone went to see it.
I heard that it was an amazingspectacle, just for the costumes
like the costuming I wanted tosee.
Say what you will about JamesCameron.
Say what you will about JamesCameron.
He does spectacle right.
I mean, he did an amazing jobwith this movie.
The man commits to a bit.
(04:52):
He really does.
He doesn't do it half-assed, heputs his whole ass out there.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh my God, I just broke my sister, she's muted so
you can't hear her.
Oh man.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So now the reason I've been thinking about it is
because I was on social media, Ithink Threads it's been a few
weeks ago where someone wassaying, like you know, there are
films that people look at astrans allegories, like the
Little Mermaid and a coupleothers, and there's a recent one
that I wasn't familiar with.
But what are some films thatpeople are unfamiliar like that
you wouldn't think of as transallegories?
And I had read this theoryyears ago.
I'm very as someone who likesto cite my sources.
I'm sad that I don't rememberwhere I saw this, but I had read
this theory years ago that Jackis a trans man and that
(05:46):
explains a bunch of differentthings about the story.
The specific thing that because, as a 18 year old watching this
, the Jack and Rose have sex ina car in steerage and you don't
see anything but the windows arefogged up in the backseat of
the car and then someone's handis like on the window and like
leaves a smear and the placementof the hand and the way that
(06:10):
they are positioned feels weirdfor traditional heterosexual PIV
sex.
So I had always been like, asan 18 year old, been like
exactly what are they doing inthere?
And so that was one of thereasons given for, like, an
explanation of Jack being atrans man.
(06:30):
And then there were severalothers and I latched onto that
theory.
I thought that was really cooland that also helped because
Jack is kind of a manic pixiedream boy for Rose, like he is
perfect in every way and itexplains things in a way that
makes the romance feel betterfor me.
(06:52):
So I mentioned that.
On Threads, I had aconversation with the person on
Threads who was like, wow, thatis fascinating, that is really
interesting and that got methinking about this movie again
and wanting to rewatch it withthat in mind, because I hadn't
rewatched it when I'd read thattheory.
So that's why I'm talking aboutit today and then rewatching it
was really interesting becauseit's been at least 20 years
(07:13):
since the last time on thattheory.
But I want to talk about some ofthe weirdness about this movie
in that like when I watched it,even as an 18-year-old, I
(07:34):
remember leaving the theatergoing like what's the point of
this story?
Why did I watch this story?
It's not even like because itis a disaster movie, like what
we talked about withIndependence Day, but it doesn't
even give like the kind ofcomfort of a disaster movie,
because it's not exactly thesame kind of thing, because we
know who's at fault.
In this disaster movie we knowexactly who's at fault and we
(07:57):
see like who's noble and who iscowardly and whose hubris has
been brought to bear and likeit's moving.
There are times when I, evenlast night, was brought to tears
, but at the end of it it justseems like and then that
happened and I remember feelingthat way in the theater at age
(08:17):
18.
And with the supposed characterarc of Rose, if Jack is a
cisgender man, I don't reallyunderstand other than the
spectacle of seeing this.
And I'm not saying that wedon't need that, because it is
important to have thishistorical understanding of this
(08:39):
enormous tragedy but why we'renot really humanizing this
tragedy exactly the way thatJames Cameron wants to Like
there's no moral of the story,sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, there's not really any there there, like
there's no thesis to underline,yeah yeah, it doesn't feel like
there is, so there's that to it.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
There's also the fact that at the time, there was a
lot of talk about how KateWinslet was so chunky to be the
lead.
Yeah, I remember that at thetime.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, she's not a big woman.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, I know when I was watching there was kind of
the background informationtrivia.
They were talking about thedress she was wearing was a size
four and they intentionally hadthe coat she was wearing was a
size 8 so that it looked biggeron her, so she'd look more
vulnerable.
I'm like, yeah, size 4.
So big.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Size 4.
I know.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Part of the reason why it felt like there's no
point is like there's this kindof discussion, there's this kind
of like class distinctions,where they show it over and over
again where there are theseclass distinctions and how Rose
is in this gilded cage becauseshe is, you know, in the first
class and she's being forcedinto this marriage that she
doesn't want, to the point whereshe's suicidal and she does not
(09:59):
have the kind of freedoms andvivacity that the women in the
third class clearly have.
And the third class passengersare treated like animals and
treated like crap.
But again, there's not reallyany point to it.
It's just pointed out in thesame way that there's this kind
of like underlying feministmessage.
(10:20):
That's just kind of like, andso that's a thing.
All of those I think are just.
It's very interesting, that Ithink is worth looking at.
And then I have an opinionabout the Jack and Rose and the
door Excellent, excellent, andI'd like to get to that too.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Excellent.
Well, before we get there, canyou like give me a little more
meat?
I mean not all five millionhours, but like what I mean?
Like, basically, myunderstanding of the plot is
like boat people, icebergdisaster, like that's like the
plot that I've got so fill me ina little bit more.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
When I was in college I had a friend who summarized
the film as something about adiamond Pretty lady gets naked,
Camera angle sucks Iceberg Shipsinks.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
That's about it All right then.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
It's a three plus hour movie.
There is a frame story whereBill Paxton it doesn't matter
what his name is is a modern day, as in 1997, explorer,
underwater archaeologist who isexcavating the Titanic,
specifically looking for a jewelthat no one knows about.
(11:42):
He only knows about it becauseof insurance records, called the
Heart of the Ocean, that hadbelonged to Louis XIV, I think
had been purchased by a mannamed Cal Hockley and had been
asked the insurance had paid outfor it.
After the sinking of theTitanic he finds in a stateroom
(12:03):
a safe.
They bring it up, they open it,assuming that the jewel be in
there, and it's like worthmillions of dollars.
They do not find the jewel butthey do find a portfolio of
drawings, including a drawing ofa nude woman wearing the jewel,
which is put on the news and anextremely old woman sees it on
(12:23):
the news and she and hergranddaughter contact Bill
Paxton saying that is me in thatpicture, and she comes to the
ship where Paxton and his creware based and tells the story of
how she came to be in thatpicture.
So that's Rose.
That is Rose, okay.
(12:45):
So now Paxton's crew doesn'tbelieve that is Rose, because
Rose DeWitt Bukater, who hadbeen a passenger on the ship,
was not listed as among thepassengers who got off.
Who you know among the survivors?
This woman arrived in New York,rose Dawson, and there's a
(13:05):
record of her, rose Dawson, whomarried someone else and had
this career.
She was an actress.
And so because she was anactress, and although she's the
right age she's nearly 101,they're worried that she's
faking.
Cameron did a very intelligentthing in order to kind of give
(13:27):
the audience an expectation ofwhat will happen.
The crew has a simulation ofwhat happened the night of April
14th to the 15th 1912, of whenthe ship hit the iceberg, and
shows like a kind of arecreation of how the ship sank.
And they do it in a veryinsensitive way to someone who'd
survived it, like they do thatto Rose, who, I'm like this, is
(13:50):
an extremely old woman who thisis the most traumatic event of
her life.
What the hell is wrong with you?
But OK, she then begins tellingher story, and the majority of
the film is Rose as Kate Winslet.
She tells the story they calledit the ship of dreams, but for
me and she says it was a slaveship because she was being
(14:11):
forced to marry Cal Hockley,played by Billy Zane, who, even
then.
So Billy Zane is so my type.
I don't know if he was wearingeyeliner, but he looked like he
was.
He has the dark hair and theand he's a horrible, abusive,
(14:32):
controlling asshole and I wasjust like, if you just stopped
talking and didn't move, I wouldjust like to look at you.
But anyway, he's clearly gotall kinds of money and we see
them bored.
We then also see Jack Dawson,played by Leonardo DiCaprio, and
(14:54):
his friend Fabrizio playingpoker, and they win tickets onto
the Titanic from the peoplethey're playing poker with five
minutes before the ship leavesand they just managed to get on
before the ship leaves.
We end up seeing like and again, I think Cameron did a really
(15:16):
intelligent thing in how hehandled this.
Now, this cross class lovestory allowed him to do what he
wanted, which was show off theship.
So we see Jack and Fabrizio geton.
We see that the third-classpassengers have to go through a
(15:36):
health check, where they'rechecking for lice for them,
whereas the first-classpassengers don't, passengers
don't.
We see how tiny the rooms arein steerage whereas, like Rose
and Cal's, state rooms areenormous.
It's just huge, huge classdifferences.
We see that the first classpassengers are bringing dogs on
(15:57):
board and they are bringing themdown to third-class decks to
have them shit on third-classdecks.
So Jack sees Rose at one pointand it's love at first sight.
He sees her and can't keep hiseyes off of her.
We also see that he draws.
(16:20):
We also see Rose and Cal atdinner and he is already
ordering dinner for her.
Speaking over her, she lights acigarette and her mother says
to her now Rose, you know Idon't like that.
And Cal takes a cigarette outof her mouth and says she knows,
and stubs it out.
And the unsinkable Molly Brownis there and says, after he
(16:42):
orders the dinner for her, shesays you're going to chew it for
her too, cal.
And so we get a little bit ofthe 90s feisty, because she's at
the same table with Mr Andrews,who built the ship, and Mr
Ismay, who was the idea manbehind it.
So Mr Andrews designed it andbuilt it and Mr Ismay was the
one who wanted it.
I wanted it to be big becauseof safety and I called it
(17:03):
Titanic.
And so we get some like 90sfeminism, like so have you heard
what Mr Freud has to say aboutmen's?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
obsession with size.
Does Molly Brown say that?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
No, Rose says that.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Molly Brown laughs, oh good.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And Mr Ismay says who is this Freud?
Is he a passenger?
He has no idea.
Oh, so he's an idiot too.
Yeah, well, and it's also anignoramus anyway yeah.
So the next night and we hearolder roses voiceover saying
like I, I saw my life ahead ofme and it was nothing.
(17:43):
Like I would go where I wastold I was going to be parties
and cotillions and like I woulddisappear.
And so we see her, like runningacross the ship, running to the
back of the ship where she getsover the railing, and Jack is
on the deck and sees her andthen goes to talk to her saying,
saying you're not really goingto do it, and basically talks
(18:06):
her down.
But as she's trying to get backover the railing again and he
says to her if you jump, I jump,I'm invested now.
And he takes off his shoes andhis coat and she's like that's
ridiculous, you can't do that.
And he's just like well, I'mnot the ridiculous one, you're
the one who's threatening tojump.
This is just, I have to do this.
(18:29):
And he tells her, like he grewup in Wisconsin, when he went
ice fishing, he fell in the lakeand it's so cold, it's like a
thousand knives in your body andbasically talks her down.
But as she's climbing back overthe railing, she slips and he
grabs her.
But she screams and so peoplecome running and he gets her
back over again.
But the assumption because it'sthis upper class woman and this
third class steerage man, theyare planning to arrest him.
(18:54):
Rose lies and says I slippedwhen it was an accident.
I slipped.
I was looking over to look atthe propellers and Jack rescued
me.
And so she manipulates Cal intoinviting Jack to dinner the
next night.
And Cal's valet, lovejoy, isthe only one who notices that
(19:17):
Jack's jacket and shoes wereundone.
So this was a lie.
But Rose doesn't want anyone toknow that she was suicidal.
So the next two days we see Roseand Jack talking to each other
more.
So Rose sees Jack's art.
(19:38):
We have already establishedthat she has an eye for art.
She's collected some Picassoand Monet and other artwork and
she recognizes Jack's talent.
Jack asks if she loves Cal andshe refuses to answer.
They have a conversation abouthow his parents have passed away
(19:59):
.
He is kind of rootless but goesall over the world and that she
should learn to do things likea man, like spit, like a man,
and ride a horse like a man, notside saddle things like that.
And they should.
They could go to some placetogether and ride the roller
coaster until they both puke.
They run into molly brown whoasks jack, do you have any idea
(20:21):
what you're doing?
And he says not really no.
And she's like what are yougonna wear?
Says not really no.
And she's like what are yougoing to wear to dinner?
And he's like this.
And she's like no.
So she gives him her son'stuxedo so that he can show up
for dinner appropriately dressed.
And although he does, okay,rose's mother continues to put
him down, asks like how are therooms in third class?
(20:45):
And he says oh, they're great.
Hardly any rats.
And makes people laugh.
And she's like well, do youreally want to live this
rootless lifestyle, like he hasany other choice because he has
no money?
And he says well, you know, twodays ago I was sleeping under a
bridge and here I am drinkingchampagne with all of you fine
people.
I love this, you know, makeevery day, make every moment
count.
(21:05):
He takes Rose to a party in thethird class steerage.
They dance.
Cal finds out because Lovejoyhas followed them, and he yells
at her, slaps her and tells herthat you know she will not act
like this, that she is his wifein deed if not in legality,
(21:31):
meaning that they've slepttogether already and that she
can never see him again.
So she's taking a tour of theship with Mr Andrews, who's the
one who built the boat, and sheremarks on the fact that there
are enough lifeboats for all thepassengers.
She did the math in her head.
Mr Andrews says yes, I wantedthere's enough room for all the
lifeboats, but I was told thatit made the deck cluttered.
(21:53):
But don't worry, look, I won'tbother you again.
I just I'm worried about you.
You're in a trap.
They've got you trapped Like.
You need to get out of this.
We have learned that from Rose'smother, that they are penniless
.
Their father, rose's father,died, leaving them indebted, and
(22:14):
the only thing they have istheir name.
And so this marriage musthappen or else they lose all of
their money.
And her mother cannot imagineliving without the luxury that
they're used to.
And Rose says no, I have tokeep doing what I've been
expected to do.
Later on she comes back, shefinds Jack again and says I've
(22:34):
changed my mind.
And so they have an adventureall over the ship.
So you get to see everything,like the engine room with these
giant pistons and all of that.
She takes him back to her room,she puts on the diamond
necklace and poses naked andsays draw me like one of your
French girls.
They run away into steerage andhave sex in the car and they
(22:56):
are on deck when the ship runsinto the iceberg.
And they are on deck when theship runs into the iceberg.
She had left a note for Calsaying like with the image of
her and the diamond in the safe,saying now you can keep both of
us in your safe, meaning thediamond and the picture of her
(23:16):
when they hit the iceberg.
She's like this is bad, we needto go tell mother and Cal.
And so she goes back and that'swhen Lovejoy puts the diamond
in Jack's pocket.
They use that to arrest him.
So over the next several hoursthe ship goes through the
(23:37):
process of sinking and we see anumber of like disaster movie
cliches and while jack ishandcuffed in a room in third
class at first, so rose gets toone of the life boats with her
mother and molly brown, hermother is saying I do hope they
(23:58):
won't let any third classpassengers on the lifeboat and
Rose says to her shut up, that'syucky, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Mother's awful.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, she says shut up, people will die.
You heard what Mr Andrews saidon the tour there's only enough
for half the people on this boat.
People will die.
She turns around and she saysgoodbye, mother, and turns
around and leaves and Cal sayswhere are you going?
(24:39):
Are you going to be his whore?
Get off of this boat, get offthis ship.
And she says I'm going to findhim, whether I have your help or
not.
It will take longer withoutyour help.
And so he tells her where tofind him.
She has to find a like stakes.
She has to find an axe to breakhis handcuffs.
There are several back and forthwith Cal.
(25:01):
You know Cal tries to buy hisway onto a boat because it's
only women and children.
We see Mr Ismay, because Calhas lost track of Rose again and
then Lovejoy has found her withJack, and so Mr Ismay takes
Cal's spot on the boat that hebought and see, like the
(25:23):
judgment, because it's MrIsmay's fault ultimately that
all of this is happening.
We see the musicians playing onthe deck.
We see a mother, like puttingher kids to bed in third class,
telling them a story, and ahusband and wife like holding
each other on a bed as the watercomes up and Jack and Rose are
(25:45):
being chased by Cal.
Rose ends up getting on a boat.
Cal and Jack both encourage herto get on the boat and they lie
to her, saying Jack will get ona boat with Cal Halfway down
because they have to, like, pullit down on ropes.
Halfway down she jumps backonto the Titanic and says I'm
not leaving without you, jack.
You jump, I jump From when theyfirst met and so there are no
(26:08):
boats left, although Cal grabs aloose child and claims that's
all she has in the world and isable to get on a lifeboat that
way.
Get on a lifeboat that way.
So Jack and Rose end up on thestern of the boat because that's
the last part that goes intothe water and he helps her.
(26:28):
He knows like, okay, it's goingto try to suck us in when it
goes down, take a deep breathand then push up as soon as and
hold onto my hand.
They do all that.
Then they find the door, so shegets on the door.
He tries to get on.
My opinion on the door is it'snot that it's not big enough for
both, it's that it's notbuoyant enough for both, because
(26:49):
when he tries to get on it, italmost turns over.
There are a bunch of people.
They're screaming, they'reshouting and there are all of
these lifeboats, molly Brown'slifeboat.
She's saying like come on,let's go back, let's go back and
help them.
And they refuse.
And the captain of thatlifeboat not captain, but the
(27:10):
White Star Line employee sayswe're not going back, they would
swarm us and if you don't keepyour mouth shut then there'll be
one less person on this boatand last person on this boat.
So only one boat comes back tolook for survivors.
And old Rose says there were1,500 people who went into the
water.
Only one boat came back andonly six people, including
myself, came out of the water.
(27:32):
So Jack and Rose talk.
She says she loves him.
He says don't say that You'renot saying goodbye.
Promise me you'll hold on.
Promise me you're going to live, to be an old woman, you're
going to die in a warm bed,you're going to do all the
wonderful things we've talkedabout.
And when the boat comes back,she sees it.
She tries to wake Jack up, buthe has died.
(27:52):
And she manages to get theboat's attention.
She gets into the boat.
We later see another ship hascome and rescued them.
Cal comes looking for her onthe third class deck where all
the third class passengers were.
She was hiding and he did notsee her.
She saw him.
She says that's the last timeshe saw Cal.
(28:12):
At one point he had put hiscoat around her and that's where
the Heart of the Sea diamondwas in his coat and he had
forgotten when he put it aroundher.
And she found it when she gotonto land.
So we see that we never seeanyone tell Bill Paxton that.
So we're back in the moderntimes.
(28:34):
We see Bill Paxton talking toRose's granddaughter saying like
you know, I've been focused onthis for four years but I never
really understood, I neverreally got it.
And he has a cigar.
I was saving this for when Ifound the heart of the sea.
And then he throws it into theocean.
And it ends with old Rose inher night gown on the ship,
(28:56):
barefoot, going to the end ofthis ship with the heart of the
sea in her hands and throwing itout into the ocean.
And then she goes back to hercabin where she's got all of her
photographs of her life andsees that she flew a plane, she
became pilot and riding a horse,like not side saddle, like a
leg on each side, with a rollercoaster in the background, and
(29:18):
then she's dreaming of being onthe on on the titanic again with
jack, and then that's the endof the film why'd she throw the?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I know I mean it could have been really helpful
for her granddaughter and shitit could have been really
helpful for rose in 1915 yeah, Imean it's just a rock.
Like did other people valuehighly Like get that bread.
Get the money, rose.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
She's kept it for 84 fucking years.
Okay, get that money, rose.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Okay, I mean, she could have even like struck a
deal with Bill Paxton and hecould have said that he like
found it and they could havelike split the money, sorry, he
like found it and they couldhave like split the money, sorry
, like okay, what did you wantto say about?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
this movie so I'm not even sure.
I think I know what jamescameron thinks he was doing with
her throwing the heart of thesea in the ocean I think.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And what's that?
Because I don't think I get it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I think she was letting go.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I think Of what?
Because didn't the heart of thesea represent cow, not jack?
I don't know, I mean Weird.
Okay, not jack, I don't know, Imean weird okay, I told you
like that I was.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
as I was watching it last night my feeling was, like
what is the point of this movie?
That's part of now like Ididn't have that exact response
30 years ago as a teenagerwatching this.
But I did go like what the fuckis that lady doing with the?
Like okay, why did you hold onto it for 84 years?
(31:12):
to throw it in the ocean now,only to throw it in the sea,
yeah, yeah, now, if Rose hadthrown it in the sea in 1915, I
would have totally understood,totally.
That would have made perfectsense to me.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Because it represented, like all of this
terrible stuff.
I mean it wasn't the iceberg,but it certainly caused
suffering for the man that shethought she loved.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, so like I totally would have understood
that, but for her to hold on toit for 84 years, yeah weird as a
symbolic gesture.
it means nothing, it does notmean anything, so that's what I
mean like, and then the factthat jack died also feels like
(31:58):
now that's a symbolic gesture.
That is actually not.
It doesn't mean nothing in thatif the ship hadn't sunk, like
if the titanic had, becauseshe'd said, when we dock, like
before they hit the iceberg, sowhen we dock, I'm going to go
with you, jack, that was nevergoing to happen.
(32:19):
Yeah, that was never going tohappen.
Yeah, that was never going tohappen because Cal was wealthy
Would have pursued her, andpowerful, yeah, and she could
not have remade herself.
She couldn't have escaped.
She could not have escaped, andlike the thing is, if Jack had
survived, like if he could havegotten up on the door if the
(32:40):
door had been buoyant enough,because it was big enough, yes,
but it wasn't point enough, Idon't know.
Like this was a three-day loveaffair, right, that doesn't mean
that they were compatible.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And like I don't know what they actually have in
common with each other, you knowthat is not the making of
lasting love, of a lifelongcommitment to each other.
That doesn't mean it's not real.
That doesn't mean it's not likelife changing and we've made
friends there and never seenthem again.
Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
(33:25):
That also is kind of like partof why I feel like what's the
point of this is likecircumstances changed Rose.
She didn't change MmInteresting, and she even says
Jack saved me.
In every way a person can saveanother person, and that feels
kind of gross when I do feellike James Cameron was trying to
(33:48):
be feminist question mark Right.
There's this one scene whereRose is dressing for dinner and
her maid, trudy, who's very kindto her, is lacing her corset
and you can see Rose likeflinching.
Rose's mother comes in and saysTrudy, get some tea.
And Rose's mother takes overwith the corset and is like
(34:10):
pulling even harder.
And so it's just like not subtle.
Rose's mother is saying, likeyou have to behave yourself, cal
is our last chance.
We have no money.
And Rose says you remind me ofthat daily and you care more
about the money than you doabout me.
And Rose's mother says, likethe one thing that makes her in
(34:34):
any way sympathetic, which iswe're women, our choices are
never easy, women, our choicesare never easy.
And so, like you do get thesense that cameron was really
was trying, but all of this justhappens to rose now, like you
(34:55):
get the 90s feisty, not likeother girls.
Like she gives love, joy thefinger at one point which I
cannot imagine in 1915.
In 1915?
Yeah, yeah, well-bred youngwoman.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Mm-mm.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
Not that I like the termwell-bred, but you know what I
mean.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Even the fact that she contemplated suicide rather
than, you know, go through withthe marriage, I think, kind of
(35:42):
gives you that sort offeistiness and, as part of
Cameron, I think, trying to sortof show us how horrible it was
for her, how trapped she was inthis gilded cage, sad side
saddle like.
If jack is a trans man thenhe's speaking from experience of
having learned to do thosethings right.
Yeah and there's a certainthere's a level of like, like,
almost mentorship from someonewho's been through it that a cis
man saying those things doesnot convey.
(36:05):
Like a cis man doing it, itfeels like saviorism.
A trans man doing it feels likesolidarity.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels a lot better Now.
Part of where this comes fromis the fact that Leonardo
DiCaprio, in 1997, was at his sopretty, so pretty yeah.
So pretty.
1997 was so pretty.
Yeah, so pretty.
I mean he was and likecompletely clean, shaven, like,
(36:30):
whereas billy zane like had afive o'clock shadow right after
he shaved.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
So like the comparison, even though billy
zane is very, very pretty likeyeah, yeah, those eyes, oh yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
But there's a kind of boyishness and they keep
calling him a boy, even thoughDiCaprio, I think, was 25, 24,
25.
So I mean, he was a grown manat the time, fully adult man,
but he was very, very pretty,very slight and so like had they
cast a different actor.
This would not have been thistheory, wouldn't?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
wouldn't fly so well, or at least not as convincingly
, like not as neatly, yeah, yeahand then it also kind of fits
with some of the backstory thathe gives.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
He has been on his own since he was 15.
And it kind of, you know, wedon't get any backstory other
than the fact that he was bornin Wisconsin.
There's like some shitty, notshitty, it's fine.
There's some fan theories thathe's a time traveler because he
mentions a lake in Wisconsinthat didn't exist in 1915,
saying he grew up on that lake,and so people are like, oh, he's
(37:42):
a time traveler, because hementions a lake in Wisconsin
that didn't exist in 1915,saying he grew up on that lake,
and so people are like, oh, he'sa time traveler.
That's just bad, it's just factchecking on Cameron's part.
Yeah, it's just bad factchecking.
When she is looking at hissketches there's one woman that
he has sketched multiple timeshe's like, I think.
She says I think you had a loveaffair with her and he says no,
no, just with her hands.
She was a one-legged prostituteand so he has been hanging out
(38:08):
with people who are on themargins of society.
So it would make sense that a15-year-old first of all like
thinking if an orphaned 15 yearold girl began dressing in male
clothing to get by and thenfully transitioned to get by and
(38:31):
to avoid being sexuallyharassed or trafficked.
If she could pass yeah, yeah,and then fully embracing it, and
then that also.
There are some things likethere's a point where when he is
dressed up in the tuxedo and hesees Rose, he kisses her hand
and he says I saw that inNickelodeon once and I've always
(38:51):
wanted to do it.
That is a gender affirmingbehavior and a lot of the kind
of survival things that he does,where the Manic, pixie, dream
Boy stuff, where it's like makeevery moment count fits with the
(39:13):
idea of be who you are.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Well, and also it fits with the someone who's
lived with the constant threatof danger.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yes, which a trans man in 19 in the early 20th
century would have, and it fitswith him recognizing how trapped
Rose is.
Because one of the things shesays when she, when she talks to
him the day after her suicideattempt, she says I know what
you're thinking, poor littlerich girl Like.
And he says I'm not thinkingthat at all.
I think you are really unhappyand it's because he recognizes
(39:50):
you feel trapped and that kindof insight, without resentment,
would make sense for someone whohas lived it, even though she
has the trappings of privilege.
So I find that a much easierand better interpretation of
(40:15):
this film than looking at itjust forgive the pun straight.
Because otherwise, like Jack,just is too good to be true.
Like why is he so devoted toRose and why is he so unbothered
(40:42):
by the fact that her life, inso many ways, has been so much
easier than his?
And why is he so willing, likejust because you know she's this
ethereal beauty, to do all ofthese things to try to save her,
when he's known her for a fewdays?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, whereas if he recognizes a kindred spirit
because he too felt trapped leois playing a cisgender man.
The fact that we have such astrong contrast between cal, who
(41:21):
exploits a child in order toget on a lifeboat, versus jack,
who sacrifices himselfeffectively for rose, like I
think cameron is trying to showus the nobility in even the sort
of face value read of Jackwhich speaks to potentially like
what maybe he thought he wasdoing with the class stuff.
(41:42):
right, there's like a heart ofnobility and goodness and moral
virtue among this, literallyshat upon people.
On the third, you know in thesteerage that is completely
missing from those in the firstclass.
Many of those, well, sure, butlike the specific instances that
(42:02):
you told me in your, you know,in the synopsis that you gave me
, like there were, there wasmultiple examples, from Ismay to
Rose's mom to Cal, of peoplewho, like, were just absolute
cowards and hiding behind theirmoney and privilege versus.
Jack, yeah, that feels like aheavy handed kind of a message
(42:28):
around money and class.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
That's kind of what I mean, like when I say what's
the point Because like it'sheavy handed and then she throws
diamond in the water for noreason.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, I mean, just because we're in late stage,
capitalism doesn't mean we don'tplay by the rules while we're
advocating to change them.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
You know you're holding millions of dollars in
your hands If she'd done it whenshe was, you know, if she'd
done it in 1915, that would havebeen different In 1915.
Like, and that would have beenmeaningful.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, because she was throwing away the trappings of
the old life.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yes, the traptor.
The trappings of the traptor.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Was there?
No one Couldn't.
Catherine Bigelow Like weren'tthey still married then?
That, weren't they stillmarried then?
That's Cameron's wife, orex-wife, now also a director,
and she won an Academy Award wasthe first woman to win an
Academy Award for Hurt LockerLike couldn't she have been like
James?
No, no.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I mean, I'm sure that there was some sort of like
romanticism of having the oldlady do it.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You know, I know Seeing the like images of all
the things she's done in herlife, that she has been like
Jack has had an effect on herlife and that is lovely.
There's something very, verylovely about that.
But why did she throw thediamond in the water 84 years
later?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
So we're running short on time.
I just want to name, like I'mlooking at what we talked about
in advance and like the onething that I just want to come
back to briefly, and thenanything that we missed is like
the in the frame story.
One of the things that is sortof interesting is like Paxson's
like I've been chasing thisthing for four years and I
didn't really understand it andlike it was a tragedy, and
before we hit record you werelike duh, and before we hit
(44:27):
record you were like duh.
I do think there's something tothis, because I think again like
part of the point was likethese were real people who
really died and it was a realtragedy which, like we didn't
need to sit through a fivemillion year movie in order to
like be reminded that it was areal tragedy where real people
died, and like real lives wereruined.
But maybe we did.
Maybe cameron needed that.
I don't like.
That little piece of tension ofyour door is what I wanted to
(44:48):
like.
Yeah, maybe unpack a little bitbefore we run out of time.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I think that's related to my dissatisfaction
with the old lady thrown thediamond, because bill paxton's
character is looking for thediamond and they actually even
have, like when he's on the newswith the image, like the
drawing of Rose, like they'reasking him, like don't people
think that it's likeunreasonable of you to be
(45:12):
looking for treasure when youknow this is like museum?
Speaker 2 (45:16):
A water grave for 2?
Speaker 1 (45:17):
yeah, water people or whatever and he says like well,
we have people who are doingthis, this and this, and there
is this sense like even as he'slooking for, like the first
scene is him like narratingsomething and one of his crew is
just like, oh, you're so fullof shit.
And then, like it's clear, he'sfocused on finding the jewel,
(45:38):
and so it's this, like it's theIndiana Jones, like I'm finding
the gold that belongs in amuseum and like not really
taking in the scope of like whatthis really means, right, and I
think, like I think that'sworth saying, I think that's
worth saying, I think that'sworth talking about.
And I feel like Cameron wastrying to say the heart of the
(46:01):
ocean doesn't matter, and that'swhy she throws it in the water
at the end.
But none of that is how humanbeings operate, and that's why
I'm so annoyed by it, becauselike no one would hold on to
that fucking thing for 84 yearsand then throw it away and then
(46:21):
throw it away.
Yeah, if you're gonna hold on toit, you hold on to it yeah, and
pass it on, or then yourgranddaughter gets money for it
or whatever.
Yeah, or you throw it awayright away because you're so
angry about what has justhappened to you, yeah, and so
like I know that this was likethis was supposed to be.
Like bill paxton understandingsomething, and like maybe bill
(46:45):
paxton is a stand-in for jamescameron.
Like, yeah, understandingsomething, yeah, but it's just
like it doesn't fit thecharacter, it doesn't't fit
human behavior.
And so like duh, this enormoushuman tragedy.
And like good on James Cameronfor making me cry.
(47:05):
It was the violinist and thequartet.
He said it's been a privilegeplaying with you tonight to the
quartet and I teared up becausethat is what it is to be human
to play while the titanic sinksand that is amazing and I will
be grateful forever to jamescameron for giving me that.
(47:27):
But I don't.
I feel like he got in his ownway there.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, he got part of the way there and then he got in
his own way.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
He needed it to mean something to him, and this is a
matter of not killing yourdarlings, because gross throwing
the heart of the way there.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, he got part of the way there.
He got in his own way.
He needed it to mean somethingto him and this is a matter of
not killing your darlings.
Yes, because, rose, throwingthe heart of the sea into the
ocean is a darling that heshould have killed.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, yeah, unless he had 17-year-old Rose do it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Right, right, all right.
Well, we are really running outof time, so let me see if I can
reflect back to your thoughtson the Titanic.
So I'll start with yes, thedoor was big enough, but it
wasn't buoyant enough.
Okay, yes.
So this movie in some wayslacks a point because we don't
(48:09):
have sort of the moral of thestory, we don't have the bigger
meaning, we don't have the waysin which, like, rose's character
changed, right, like her lifewas changed by the experience,
but like there was no likegrowth that we're seeing.
So that is, I don't know,problematic.
This movie is frustrating, yeah.
As for the storytelling piece,this movie is much more
(48:32):
satisfying if we imagine thatthe gorgeous, very pretty, very
like boyish I'm putting quotesaround that Leonardo DiCaprio
playing Jack is in fact a transman and not a cisgender man, and
somehow that like reallytransforms the whole romance and
makes it less about Jack beinga savior and more about Jack
(48:54):
being a mentor who has beenthrough it before, right, so
someone who says, hey, I've beenwhere you are and here's how
you can get through it, and thenthat romance, sort of it, feels
more co-equal to me in the waythat you described it, the thing
that I said earlier was that itwas less about saviorism and
more about solidarity.
That is really a veryinteresting interpretation, and
(49:16):
I think that also helps tounderscore the feminism question
mark that maybe Cameron waslike trying for but didn't quite
make.
And we see that he was tryingfor it by really getting us as
an audience to deeply sympathizeand empathize with poor Rose
who is trapped in this life.
That is not just unsatisfyingbut causing suffering and
(49:38):
forcing her, like taking awayher agency and taking away her
choices.
Over and over and over again.
We have her being sort offeisty and telling the boat
designer that he has a smallpenis and having Molly Brown
laugh at that and having MollyBrown ask her fiance if he's
going to chew for her too, andthat sort of thing.
There's also this like regardingthat, that sort of feminist
(50:01):
piece or there was less like acall to action or even a
judgment and more like a here'sthe thing, here's the thing that
happens.
And there was a similar sort ofhere's the thing, here's the
thing that happens around classand classism in the boat, in the
way that the story unfolds andwhat we get to see about it,
that it wasn't even necessarilyjudgment.
And then there is a judgment,but like what do we do with it?
(50:24):
Because we see, though, thereare some people who are moral
human beings among the firstclass passengers many of them
many of them, we see, are justcompletely morally bankrupt,
self-serving and not afraid orembarrassed or ashamed to like
rose's mother, to like commitother people to death because
(50:45):
they're not of the same class.
Cameron, like showed ussomething and then didn't quite
turn it all the way around.
He also kind of got in his ownway, where he was committed to
this historic accuracy.
That was gorgeous and beautiful, made you cry with the
musicians on the deck in hishopeless situation, but then
(51:07):
also like he needed to throw theheart of the sea or whatever,
the diamond into the ocean.
And so he had ancient Rose doit, even though it was
completely out of character.
It's completely out of syncwith human behavior for someone
who held on to this thing forover 80 years.
And so we end up with thisdarling that maybe should have
been killed somewhere inrevisions and leaves you saying
(51:29):
like, where were his editors?
Where was his wife Saying don'tdo that?
So what did I forget?
Where was his?
Speaker 1 (51:37):
wife saying don't do that.
So what did I forget?
Just the spectacle of this film.
Like Cameron, he committed hiswhole ass.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Whole ass.
He whole assed it.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
It's an amazing feat, Although, oddly enough, like as
high tech as special effectsare it has aged.
There are some things that, aswe all do, I like it a lot
better, if I assume that Jack isa trans man, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Well, I still don't really want to watch it, but I'm
really glad to know more aboutit.
So thank you for this.
Next week.
I am going to bring you my deepthoughts about a very obscure
movie that we loved as children,called the Beastmaster.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
That was the movie.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
That was why you wanted ferrets.
That is exactly why I wantedferrets was because of that
movie, so I'm looking forward torewatching it.
I haven't seen it in probably40 years, so next week I will
share my thoughts with you aboutit.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
(52:39):
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people can find us and, of
(53:00):
course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
The third-class passengers have to go through a
health check where they'rechecking for lice for them,
whereas the first-classpassengers don't.
We see how tiny the rooms arein steerage, whereas Rose and
Cal's staterooms are enormous.
It's just huge, huge classdifferences.
This is post-production, emily.
(00:22):
I'm here with a little meaculpa.
This is post-production, emily.
I'm here with a little meaculpa.
Throughout the episode you'reabout to listen to, I keep
saying the Titanic sank in 1915.
It sank in 1912.
For some reason, I got my datesmixed up, I think, because it
sank on April 15th.
(00:42):
I got it stuck in my head thatit was 1915.
Please excuse the error.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Other than that, I think you're in for a great
episode.
You know what's worth talkingand thinking about, and so do we
, so come overthink with us aswe delve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
I'm Emily Guy-Burken and you're listening to Deep
Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head head?
On today's episode, I'll besharing my deep thoughts about
the 1997 blockbuster filmTitanic with my sister, tracy
(01:32):
Guy-Decker, and with you, let'sdive in, literally.
So, tracy, I know you haven'tseen this film, but you can't
have missed it in the zeitgeist.
Tell me what you know about it.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Yeah, I don't need to see it.
That's why I never have.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's also a million years long, like a million.
Like I started watching itthree months ago.
I'm still not done watching it.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
Right.
So what I know about this film,james Cameron it was like very
important to him that this besort of historically accurate.
So he studied all of like thephotographs and even I went to
this museum exhibit that I thinkwas at national geographic like
seven or eight years ago, thatlike had like some of the
science of the like finding thewreck and like what they found
(02:19):
at the bottom of the sea andplus the movie, plus like the
recreations of some of the stuffthat had been on the ship.
So I know that there was a lotof like attention to historical
accuracy for this film.
I know about Rose and Jack andthey like connected across a
class divide and she was likeengaged or something to some
(02:41):
blowhard, to some blowhard, andhe was an artist and like below
her station, class-wise, and atsome point she says draw me like
one of your French girls, andafter they're all in the water,
like she's on a door floatingand he's like somehow like
(03:03):
holding on to the door and likesacrifices himself to let go.
And I know there's a hugedebate in the culture as to
whether or not there was in factroom on the door for Jack.
And yeah, I guess that's it.
That's what I know.
That's what I know.
So why are we talking aboutthis historically accurate, very
(03:23):
, very long movie from the late90s?
that everyone in the world hasseen besides me.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So this movie came out.
We recently talked aboutanother blockbuster from 97 that
you didn't see.
In my defense 1997, I was inEngland for half the year as my
senior semester abroad and thenI was graduating from college,
so seeing movies was not exactlymy like top, but anyway carry
on, and that's actually I bringthat up because you were not in
(03:55):
a point in your life wheregetting to the movie theater was
a priority, so that's why Ibring that up.
Whereas I was in the midst ofmy like, movies were my thing.
I went to them weekly.
Sometimes I'd see more than onemovie a week.
That was what I did in highschool, so this was one actually
(04:16):
.
When it came out, I remembersaying like I'm not sure I want
to see that.
It looks really depressing.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
I mean, you already know what happens, right, I know
how it ends.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
But you know, everyone went to see it.
I heard that it was an amazingspectacle, just for the costumes
like the costuming I wanted tosee.
Say what you will about JamesCameron.
Say what you will about JamesCameron.
He does spectacle right.
I mean, he did an amazing jobwith this movie.
The man commits to a bit.
(04:52):
He really does.
He doesn't do it half-assed, heputs his whole ass out there.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Oh my God, I just broke my sister, she's muted so
you can't hear her.
Oh man.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
So now the reason I've been thinking about it is
because I was on social media, Ithink Threads it's been a few
weeks ago where someone wassaying, like you know, there are
films that people look at astrans allegories, like the
Little Mermaid and a coupleothers, and there's a recent one
that I wasn't familiar with.
But what are some films thatpeople are unfamiliar like that
you wouldn't think of as transallegories?
And I had read this theoryyears ago.
I'm very as someone who likesto cite my sources.
I'm sad that I don't rememberwhere I saw this, but I had read
this theory years ago that Jackis a trans man and that
(05:46):
explains a bunch of differentthings about the story.
The specific thing that because, as a 18 year old watching this
, the Jack and Rose have sex ina car in steerage and you don't
see anything but the windows arefogged up in the backseat of
the car and then someone's handis like on the window and like
leaves a smear and the placementof the hand and the way that
(06:10):
they are positioned feels weirdfor traditional heterosexual PIV
sex.
So I had always been like, asan 18 year old, been like
exactly what are they doing inthere?
And so that was one of thereasons given for, like, an
explanation of Jack being atrans man.
(06:30):
And then there were severalothers and I latched onto that
theory.
I thought that was really cooland that also helped because
Jack is kind of a manic pixiedream boy for Rose, like he is
perfect in every way and itexplains things in a way that
makes the romance feel betterfor me.
(06:52):
So I mentioned that.
On Threads, I had aconversation with the person on
Threads who was like, wow, thatis fascinating, that is really
interesting and that got methinking about this movie again
and wanting to rewatch it withthat in mind, because I hadn't
rewatched it when I'd read thattheory.
So that's why I'm talking aboutit today and then rewatching it
was really interesting becauseit's been at least 20 years
(07:13):
since the last time on thattheory.
But I want to talk about some ofthe weirdness about this movie
in that like when I watched it,even as an 18-year-old, I
(07:34):
remember leaving the theatergoing like what's the point of
this story?
Why did I watch this story?
It's not even like because itis a disaster movie, like what
we talked about withIndependence Day, but it doesn't
even give like the kind ofcomfort of a disaster movie,
because it's not exactly thesame kind of thing, because we
know who's at fault.
In this disaster movie we knowexactly who's at fault and we
(07:57):
see like who's noble and who iscowardly and whose hubris has
been brought to bear and likeit's moving.
There are times when I, evenlast night, was brought to tears
, but at the end of it it justseems like and then that
happened and I remember feelingthat way in the theater at age
(08:17):
18.
And with the supposed characterarc of Rose, if Jack is a
cisgender man, I don't reallyunderstand other than the
spectacle of seeing this.
And I'm not saying that wedon't need that, because it is
important to have thishistorical understanding of this
(08:39):
enormous tragedy but why we'renot really humanizing this
tragedy exactly the way thatJames Cameron wants to Like
there's no moral of the story,sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Yeah, there's not really any there there, like
there's no thesis to underline,yeah yeah, it doesn't feel like
there is, so there's that to it.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
There's also the fact that at the time, there was a
lot of talk about how KateWinslet was so chunky to be the
lead.
Yeah, I remember that at thetime.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Yeah, she's not a big woman.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Yeah, I know when I was watching there was kind of
the background informationtrivia.
They were talking about thedress she was wearing was a size
four and they intentionally hadthe coat she was wearing was a
size 8 so that it looked biggeron her, so she'd look more
vulnerable.
I'm like, yeah, size 4.
So big.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Size 4.
I know.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Part of the reason why it felt like there's no
point is like there's this kindof discussion, there's this kind
of like class distinctions,where they show it over and over
again where there are theseclass distinctions and how Rose
is in this gilded cage becauseshe is, you know, in the first
class and she's being forcedinto this marriage that she
doesn't want, to the point whereshe's suicidal and she does not
(09:59):
have the kind of freedoms andvivacity that the women in the
third class clearly have.
And the third class passengersare treated like animals and
treated like crap.
But again, there's not reallyany point to it.
It's just pointed out in thesame way that there's this kind
of like underlying feministmessage.
(10:20):
That's just kind of like, andso that's a thing.
All of those I think are just.
It's very interesting, that Ithink is worth looking at.
And then I have an opinionabout the Jack and Rose and the
door Excellent, excellent, andI'd like to get to that too.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Excellent.
Well, before we get there, canyou like give me a little more
meat?
I mean not all five millionhours, but like what I mean?
Like, basically, myunderstanding of the plot is
like boat people, icebergdisaster, like that's like the
plot that I've got so fill me ina little bit more.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
When I was in college I had a friend who summarized
the film as something about adiamond Pretty lady gets naked,
Camera angle sucks Iceberg Shipsinks.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
That's about it All right then.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
It's a three plus hour movie.
There is a frame story whereBill Paxton it doesn't matter
what his name is is a modern day, as in 1997, explorer,
underwater archaeologist who isexcavating the Titanic,
specifically looking for a jewelthat no one knows about.
(11:42):
He only knows about it becauseof insurance records, called the
Heart of the Ocean, that hadbelonged to Louis XIV, I think
had been purchased by a mannamed Cal Hockley and had been
asked the insurance had paid outfor it.
After the sinking of theTitanic he finds in a stateroom
(12:03):
a safe.
They bring it up, they open it,assuming that the jewel be in
there, and it's like worthmillions of dollars.
They do not find the jewel butthey do find a portfolio of
drawings, including a drawing ofa nude woman wearing the jewel,
which is put on the news and anextremely old woman sees it on
(12:23):
the news and she and hergranddaughter contact Bill
Paxton saying that is me in thatpicture, and she comes to the
ship where Paxton and his creware based and tells the story of
how she came to be in thatpicture.
So that's Rose.
That is Rose, okay.
(12:45):
So now Paxton's crew doesn'tbelieve that is Rose, because
Rose DeWitt Bukater, who hadbeen a passenger on the ship,
was not listed as among thepassengers who got off.
Who you know among the survivors?
This woman arrived in New York,rose Dawson, and there's a
(13:05):
record of her, rose Dawson, whomarried someone else and had
this career.
She was an actress.
And so because she was anactress, and although she's the
right age she's nearly 101,they're worried that she's
faking.
Cameron did a very intelligentthing in order to kind of give
(13:27):
the audience an expectation ofwhat will happen.
The crew has a simulation ofwhat happened the night of April
14th to the 15th 1912, of whenthe ship hit the iceberg, and
shows like a kind of arecreation of how the ship sank.
And they do it in a veryinsensitive way to someone who'd
survived it, like they do thatto Rose, who, I'm like this, is
(13:50):
an extremely old woman who thisis the most traumatic event of
her life.
What the hell is wrong with you?
But OK, she then begins tellingher story, and the majority of
the film is Rose as Kate Winslet.
She tells the story they calledit the ship of dreams, but for
me and she says it was a slaveship because she was being
(14:11):
forced to marry Cal Hockley,played by Billy Zane, who, even
then.
So Billy Zane is so my type.
I don't know if he was wearingeyeliner, but he looked like he
was.
He has the dark hair and theand he's a horrible, abusive,
(14:32):
controlling asshole and I wasjust like, if you just stopped
talking and didn't move, I wouldjust like to look at you.
But anyway, he's clearly gotall kinds of money and we see
them bored.
We then also see Jack Dawson,played by Leonardo DiCaprio, and
(14:54):
his friend Fabrizio playingpoker, and they win tickets onto
the Titanic from the peoplethey're playing poker with five
minutes before the ship leavesand they just managed to get on
before the ship leaves.
We end up seeing like and again, I think Cameron did a really
(15:16):
intelligent thing in how hehandled this.
Now, this cross class lovestory allowed him to do what he
wanted, which was show off theship.
So we see Jack and Fabrizio geton.
We see that the third-classpassengers have to go through a
(15:36):
health check, where they'rechecking for lice for them,
whereas the first-classpassengers don't, passengers
don't.
We see how tiny the rooms arein steerage whereas, like Rose
and Cal's, state rooms areenormous.
It's just huge, huge classdifferences.
We see that the first classpassengers are bringing dogs on
(15:57):
board and they are bringing themdown to third-class decks to
have them shit on third-classdecks.
So Jack sees Rose at one pointand it's love at first sight.
He sees her and can't keep hiseyes off of her.
We also see that he draws.
(16:20):
We also see Rose and Cal atdinner and he is already
ordering dinner for her.
Speaking over her, she lights acigarette and her mother says
to her now Rose, you know Idon't like that.
And Cal takes a cigarette outof her mouth and says she knows,
and stubs it out.
And the unsinkable Molly Brownis there and says, after he
(16:42):
orders the dinner for her, shesays you're going to chew it for
her too, cal.
And so we get a little bit ofthe 90s feisty, because she's at
the same table with Mr Andrews,who built the ship, and Mr
Ismay, who was the idea manbehind it.
So Mr Andrews designed it andbuilt it and Mr Ismay was the
one who wanted it.
I wanted it to be big becauseof safety and I called it
(17:03):
Titanic.
And so we get some like 90sfeminism, like so have you heard
what Mr Freud has to say aboutmen's?
Speaker 2 (17:13):
obsession with size.
Does Molly Brown say that?
Speaker 1 (17:15):
No, Rose says that.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Molly Brown laughs, oh good.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
And Mr Ismay says who is this Freud?
Is he a passenger?
He has no idea.
Oh, so he's an idiot too.
Yeah, well, and it's also anignoramus anyway yeah.
So the next night and we hearolder roses voiceover saying
like I, I saw my life ahead ofme and it was nothing.
(17:43):
Like I would go where I wastold I was going to be parties
and cotillions and like I woulddisappear.
And so we see her, like runningacross the ship, running to the
back of the ship where she getsover the railing, and Jack is
on the deck and sees her andthen goes to talk to her saying,
saying you're not really goingto do it, and basically talks
(18:06):
her down.
But as she's trying to get backover the railing again and he
says to her if you jump, I jump,I'm invested now.
And he takes off his shoes andhis coat and she's like that's
ridiculous, you can't do that.
And he's just like well, I'mnot the ridiculous one, you're
the one who's threatening tojump.
This is just, I have to do this.
(18:29):
And he tells her, like he grewup in Wisconsin, when he went
ice fishing, he fell in the lakeand it's so cold, it's like a
thousand knives in your body andbasically talks her down.
But as she's climbing back overthe railing, she slips and he
grabs her.
But she screams and so peoplecome running and he gets her
back over again.
But the assumption because it'sthis upper class woman and this
third class steerage man, theyare planning to arrest him.
(18:54):
Rose lies and says I slippedwhen it was an accident.
I slipped.
I was looking over to look atthe propellers and Jack rescued
me.
And so she manipulates Cal intoinviting Jack to dinner the
next night.
And Cal's valet, lovejoy, isthe only one who notices that
(19:17):
Jack's jacket and shoes wereundone.
So this was a lie.
But Rose doesn't want anyone toknow that she was suicidal.
So the next two days we see Roseand Jack talking to each other
more.
So Rose sees Jack's art.
(19:38):
We have already establishedthat she has an eye for art.
She's collected some Picassoand Monet and other artwork and
she recognizes Jack's talent.
Jack asks if she loves Cal andshe refuses to answer.
They have a conversation abouthow his parents have passed away
(19:59):
.
He is kind of rootless but goesall over the world and that she
should learn to do things likea man, like spit, like a man,
and ride a horse like a man, notside saddle things like that.
And they should.
They could go to some placetogether and ride the roller
coaster until they both puke.
They run into molly brown whoasks jack, do you have any idea
(20:21):
what you're doing?
And he says not really no.
And she's like what are yougonna wear?
Says not really no.
And she's like what are yougoing to wear to dinner?
And he's like this.
And she's like no.
So she gives him her son'stuxedo so that he can show up
for dinner appropriately dressed.
And although he does, okay,rose's mother continues to put
him down, asks like how are therooms in third class?
(20:45):
And he says oh, they're great.
Hardly any rats.
And makes people laugh.
And she's like well, do youreally want to live this
rootless lifestyle, like he hasany other choice because he has
no money?
And he says well, you know, twodays ago I was sleeping under a
bridge and here I am drinkingchampagne with all of you fine
people.
I love this, you know, makeevery day, make every moment
count.
(21:05):
He takes Rose to a party in thethird class steerage.
They dance.
Cal finds out because Lovejoyhas followed them, and he yells
at her, slaps her and tells herthat you know she will not act
like this, that she is his wifein deed if not in legality,
(21:31):
meaning that they've slepttogether already and that she
can never see him again.
So she's taking a tour of theship with Mr Andrews, who's the
one who built the boat, and sheremarks on the fact that there
are enough lifeboats for all thepassengers.
She did the math in her head.
Mr Andrews says yes, I wantedthere's enough room for all the
lifeboats, but I was told thatit made the deck cluttered.
(21:53):
But don't worry, look, I won'tbother you again.
I just I'm worried about you.
You're in a trap.
They've got you trapped Like.
You need to get out of this.
We have learned that from Rose'smother, that they are penniless
.
Their father, rose's father,died, leaving them indebted, and
(22:14):
the only thing they have istheir name.
And so this marriage musthappen or else they lose all of
their money.
And her mother cannot imagineliving without the luxury that
they're used to.
And Rose says no, I have tokeep doing what I've been
expected to do.
Later on she comes back, shefinds Jack again and says I've
(22:34):
changed my mind.
And so they have an adventureall over the ship.
So you get to see everything,like the engine room with these
giant pistons and all of that.
She takes him back to her room,she puts on the diamond
necklace and poses naked andsays draw me like one of your
French girls.
They run away into steerage andhave sex in the car and they
(22:56):
are on deck when the ship runsinto the iceberg.
And they are on deck when theship runs into the iceberg.
She had left a note for Calsaying like with the image of
her and the diamond in the safe,saying now you can keep both of
us in your safe, meaning thediamond and the picture of her
(23:16):
when they hit the iceberg.
She's like this is bad, we needto go tell mother and Cal.
And so she goes back and that'swhen Lovejoy puts the diamond
in Jack's pocket.
They use that to arrest him.
So over the next several hoursthe ship goes through the
(23:37):
process of sinking and we see anumber of like disaster movie
cliches and while jack ishandcuffed in a room in third
class at first, so rose gets toone of the life boats with her
mother and molly brown, hermother is saying I do hope they
(23:58):
won't let any third classpassengers on the lifeboat and
Rose says to her shut up, that'syucky, oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Mother's awful.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Yeah, she says shut up, people will die.
You heard what Mr Andrews saidon the tour there's only enough
for half the people on this boat.
People will die.
She turns around and she saysgoodbye, mother, and turns
around and leaves and Cal sayswhere are you going?
(24:39):
Are you going to be his whore?
Get off of this boat, get offthis ship.
And she says I'm going to findhim, whether I have your help or
not.
It will take longer withoutyour help.
And so he tells her where tofind him.
She has to find a like stakes.
She has to find an axe to breakhis handcuffs.
There are several back and forthwith Cal.
(25:01):
You know Cal tries to buy hisway onto a boat because it's
only women and children.
We see Mr Ismay, because Calhas lost track of Rose again and
then Lovejoy has found her withJack, and so Mr Ismay takes
Cal's spot on the boat that hebought and see, like the
(25:23):
judgment, because it's MrIsmay's fault ultimately that
all of this is happening.
We see the musicians playing onthe deck.
We see a mother, like puttingher kids to bed in third class,
telling them a story, and ahusband and wife like holding
each other on a bed as the watercomes up and Jack and Rose are
(25:45):
being chased by Cal.
Rose ends up getting on a boat.
Cal and Jack both encourage herto get on the boat and they lie
to her, saying Jack will get ona boat with Cal Halfway down
because they have to, like, pullit down on ropes.
Halfway down she jumps backonto the Titanic and says I'm
not leaving without you, jack.
You jump, I jump From when theyfirst met and so there are no
(26:08):
boats left, although Cal grabs aloose child and claims that's
all she has in the world and isable to get on a lifeboat that
way.
Get on a lifeboat that way.
So Jack and Rose end up on thestern of the boat because that's
the last part that goes intothe water and he helps her.
(26:28):
He knows like, okay, it's goingto try to suck us in when it
goes down, take a deep breathand then push up as soon as and
hold onto my hand.
They do all that.
Then they find the door, so shegets on the door.
He tries to get on.
My opinion on the door is it'snot that it's not big enough for
both, it's that it's notbuoyant enough for both, because
(26:49):
when he tries to get on it, italmost turns over.
There are a bunch of people.
They're screaming, they'reshouting and there are all of
these lifeboats, molly Brown'slifeboat.
She's saying like come on,let's go back, let's go back and
help them.
And they refuse.
And the captain of thatlifeboat not captain, but the
(27:10):
White Star Line employee sayswe're not going back, they would
swarm us and if you don't keepyour mouth shut then there'll be
one less person on this boatand last person on this boat.
So only one boat comes back tolook for survivors.
And old Rose says there were1,500 people who went into the
water.
Only one boat came back andonly six people, including
myself, came out of the water.
(27:32):
So Jack and Rose talk.
She says she loves him.
He says don't say that You'renot saying goodbye.
Promise me you'll hold on.
Promise me you're going to live, to be an old woman, you're
going to die in a warm bed,you're going to do all the
wonderful things we've talkedabout.
And when the boat comes back,she sees it.
She tries to wake Jack up, buthe has died.
(27:52):
And she manages to get theboat's attention.
She gets into the boat.
We later see another ship hascome and rescued them.
Cal comes looking for her onthe third class deck where all
the third class passengers were.
She was hiding and he did notsee her.
She saw him.
She says that's the last timeshe saw Cal.
(28:12):
At one point he had put hiscoat around her and that's where
the Heart of the Sea diamondwas in his coat and he had
forgotten when he put it aroundher.
And she found it when she gotonto land.
So we see that we never seeanyone tell Bill Paxton that.
So we're back in the moderntimes.
(28:34):
We see Bill Paxton talking toRose's granddaughter saying like
you know, I've been focused onthis for four years but I never
really understood, I neverreally got it.
And he has a cigar.
I was saving this for when Ifound the heart of the sea.
And then he throws it into theocean.
And it ends with old Rose inher night gown on the ship,
(28:56):
barefoot, going to the end ofthis ship with the heart of the
sea in her hands and throwing itout into the ocean.
And then she goes back to hercabin where she's got all of her
photographs of her life andsees that she flew a plane, she
became pilot and riding a horse,like not side saddle, like a
leg on each side, with a rollercoaster in the background, and
(29:18):
then she's dreaming of being onthe on on the titanic again with
jack, and then that's the endof the film why'd she throw the?
Speaker 2 (29:28):
I know I mean it could have been really helpful
for her granddaughter and shitit could have been really
helpful for rose in 1915 yeah, Imean it's just a rock.
Like did other people valuehighly Like get that bread.
Get the money, rose.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
She's kept it for 84 fucking years.
Okay, get that money, rose.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Okay, I mean, she could have even like struck a
deal with Bill Paxton and hecould have said that he like
found it and they could havelike split the money, sorry, he
like found it and they couldhave like split the money, sorry
, like okay, what did you wantto say about?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
this movie so I'm not even sure.
I think I know what jamescameron thinks he was doing with
her throwing the heart of thesea in the ocean I think.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And what's that?
Because I don't think I get it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I think she was letting go.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
I think Of what?
Because didn't the heart of thesea represent cow, not jack?
I don't know, I mean Weird.
Okay, not jack, I don't know, Imean weird okay, I told you
like that I was.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
as I was watching it last night my feeling was, like
what is the point of this movie?
That's part of now like Ididn't have that exact response
30 years ago as a teenagerwatching this.
But I did go like what the fuckis that lady doing with the?
Like okay, why did you hold onto it for 84 years?
(31:12):
to throw it in the ocean now,only to throw it in the sea,
yeah, yeah, now, if Rose hadthrown it in the sea in 1915, I
would have totally understood,totally.
That would have made perfectsense to me.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Because it represented, like all of this
terrible stuff.
I mean it wasn't the iceberg,but it certainly caused
suffering for the man that shethought she loved.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, so like I totally would have understood
that, but for her to hold on toit for 84 years, yeah weird as a
symbolic gesture.
it means nothing, it does notmean anything, so that's what I
mean like, and then the factthat jack died also feels like
(31:58):
now that's a symbolic gesture.
That is actually not.
It doesn't mean nothing in thatif the ship hadn't sunk, like
if the titanic had, becauseshe'd said, when we dock, like
before they hit the iceberg, sowhen we dock, I'm going to go
with you, jack, that was nevergoing to happen.
(32:19):
Yeah, that was never going tohappen.
Yeah, that was never going tohappen because Cal was wealthy
Would have pursued her, andpowerful, yeah, and she could
not have remade herself.
She couldn't have escaped.
She could not have escaped, andlike the thing is, if Jack had
survived, like if he could havegotten up on the door if the
(32:40):
door had been buoyant enough,because it was big enough, yes,
but it wasn't point enough, Idon't know.
Like this was a three-day loveaffair, right, that doesn't mean
that they were compatible.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
And like I don't know what they actually have in
common with each other, you knowthat is not the making of
lasting love, of a lifelongcommitment to each other.
That doesn't mean it's not real.
That doesn't mean it's not likelife changing and we've made
friends there and never seenthem again.
Yeah, yeah, mm-hmm.
(33:25):
That also is kind of like partof why I feel like what's the
point of this is likecircumstances changed Rose.
She didn't change MmInteresting, and she even says
Jack saved me.
In every way a person can saveanother person, and that feels
kind of gross when I do feellike James Cameron was trying to
(33:48):
be feminist question mark Right.
There's this one scene whereRose is dressing for dinner and
her maid, trudy, who's very kindto her, is lacing her corset
and you can see Rose likeflinching.
Rose's mother comes in and saysTrudy, get some tea.
And Rose's mother takes overwith the corset and is like
(34:10):
pulling even harder.
And so it's just like not subtle.
Rose's mother is saying, likeyou have to behave yourself, cal
is our last chance.
We have no money.
And Rose says you remind me ofthat daily and you care more
about the money than you doabout me.
And Rose's mother says, likethe one thing that makes her in
(34:34):
any way sympathetic, which iswe're women, our choices are
never easy, women, our choicesare never easy.
And so, like you do get thesense that cameron was really
was trying, but all of this justhappens to rose now, like you
(34:55):
get the 90s feisty, not likeother girls.
Like she gives love, joy thefinger at one point which I
cannot imagine in 1915.
In 1915?
Yeah, yeah, well-bred youngwoman.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Mm-mm.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
Mm-mm, mm-mm.
Not that I like the termwell-bred, but you know what I
mean.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Even the fact that she contemplated suicide rather
than, you know, go through withthe marriage, I think, kind of
(35:42):
gives you that sort offeistiness and, as part of
Cameron, I think, trying to sortof show us how horrible it was
for her, how trapped she was inthis gilded cage, sad side
saddle like.
If jack is a trans man thenhe's speaking from experience of
having learned to do thosethings right.
Yeah and there's a certainthere's a level of like, like,
almost mentorship from someonewho's been through it that a cis
man saying those things doesnot convey.
(36:05):
Like a cis man doing it, itfeels like saviorism.
A trans man doing it feels likesolidarity.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels a lot better Now.
Part of where this comes fromis the fact that Leonardo
DiCaprio, in 1997, was at his sopretty, so pretty yeah.
So pretty.
1997 was so pretty.
Yeah, so pretty.
I mean he was and likecompletely clean, shaven, like,
(36:30):
whereas billy zane like had afive o'clock shadow right after
he shaved.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
So like the comparison, even though billy
zane is very, very pretty likeyeah, yeah, those eyes, oh yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
But there's a kind of boyishness and they keep
calling him a boy, even thoughDiCaprio, I think, was 25, 24,
25.
So I mean, he was a grown manat the time, fully adult man,
but he was very, very pretty,very slight and so like had they
cast a different actor.
This would not have been thistheory, wouldn't?
Speaker 2 (37:07):
wouldn't fly so well, or at least not as convincingly
, like not as neatly, yeah, yeahand then it also kind of fits
with some of the backstory thathe gives.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
He has been on his own since he was 15.
And it kind of, you know, wedon't get any backstory other
than the fact that he was bornin Wisconsin.
There's like some shitty, notshitty, it's fine.
There's some fan theories thathe's a time traveler because he
mentions a lake in Wisconsinthat didn't exist in 1915,
saying he grew up on that lake,and so people are like, oh, he's
(37:42):
a time traveler, because hementions a lake in Wisconsin
that didn't exist in 1915,saying he grew up on that lake,
and so people are like, oh, he'sa time traveler.
That's just bad, it's just factchecking on Cameron's part.
Yeah, it's just bad factchecking.
When she is looking at hissketches there's one woman that
he has sketched multiple timeshe's like, I think.
She says I think you had a loveaffair with her and he says no,
no, just with her hands.
She was a one-legged prostituteand so he has been hanging out
(38:08):
with people who are on themargins of society.
So it would make sense that a15-year-old first of all like
thinking if an orphaned 15 yearold girl began dressing in male
clothing to get by and thenfully transitioned to get by and
(38:31):
to avoid being sexuallyharassed or trafficked.
If she could pass yeah, yeah,and then fully embracing it, and
then that also.
There are some things likethere's a point where when he is
dressed up in the tuxedo and hesees Rose, he kisses her hand
and he says I saw that inNickelodeon once and I've always
(38:51):
wanted to do it.
That is a gender affirmingbehavior and a lot of the kind
of survival things that he does,where the Manic, pixie, dream
Boy stuff, where it's like makeevery moment count fits with the
(39:13):
idea of be who you are.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Well, and also it fits with the someone who's
lived with the constant threatof danger.
Speaker 1 (39:26):
Yes, which a trans man in 19 in the early 20th
century would have, and it fitswith him recognizing how trapped
Rose is.
Because one of the things shesays when she, when she talks to
him the day after her suicideattempt, she says I know what
you're thinking, poor littlerich girl Like.
And he says I'm not thinkingthat at all.
I think you are really unhappyand it's because he recognizes
(39:50):
you feel trapped and that kindof insight, without resentment,
would make sense for someone whohas lived it, even though she
has the trappings of privilege.
So I find that a much easierand better interpretation of
(40:15):
this film than looking at itjust forgive the pun straight.
Because otherwise, like Jack,just is too good to be true.
Like why is he so devoted toRose and why is he so unbothered
(40:42):
by the fact that her life, inso many ways, has been so much
easier than his?
And why is he so willing, likejust because you know she's this
ethereal beauty, to do all ofthese things to try to save her,
when he's known her for a fewdays?
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, whereas if he recognizes a kindred spirit
because he too felt trapped leois playing a cisgender man.
The fact that we have such astrong contrast between cal, who
(41:21):
exploits a child in order toget on a lifeboat, versus jack,
who sacrifices himselfeffectively for rose, like I
think cameron is trying to showus the nobility in even the sort
of face value read of Jackwhich speaks to potentially like
what maybe he thought he wasdoing with the class stuff.
(41:42):
right, there's like a heart ofnobility and goodness and moral
virtue among this, literallyshat upon people.
On the third, you know in thesteerage that is completely
missing from those in the firstclass.
Many of those, well, sure, butlike the specific instances that
(42:02):
you told me in your, you know,in the synopsis that you gave me
, like there were, there wasmultiple examples, from Ismay to
Rose's mom to Cal, of peoplewho, like, were just absolute
cowards and hiding behind theirmoney and privilege versus.
Jack, yeah, that feels like aheavy handed kind of a message
(42:28):
around money and class.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
That's kind of what I mean, like when I say what's
the point Because like it'sheavy handed and then she throws
diamond in the water for noreason.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
Yeah, I mean, just because we're in late stage,
capitalism doesn't mean we don'tplay by the rules while we're
advocating to change them.
Speaker 1 (42:48):
You know you're holding millions of dollars in
your hands If she'd done it whenshe was, you know, if she'd
done it in 1915, that would havebeen different In 1915.
Like, and that would have beenmeaningful.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
Yeah, because she was throwing away the trappings of
the old life.
Speaker 1 (43:04):
Yes, the traptor.
The trappings of the traptor.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Was there?
No one Couldn't.
Catherine Bigelow Like weren'tthey still married then?
That, weren't they stillmarried then?
That's Cameron's wife, orex-wife, now also a director,
and she won an Academy Award wasthe first woman to win an
Academy Award for Hurt LockerLike couldn't she have been like
James?
No, no.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I mean, I'm sure that there was some sort of like
romanticism of having the oldlady do it.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
You know, I know Seeing the like images of all
the things she's done in herlife, that she has been like
Jack has had an effect on herlife and that is lovely.
There's something very, verylovely about that.
But why did she throw thediamond in the water 84 years
later?
Speaker 2 (43:57):
So we're running short on time.
I just want to name, like I'mlooking at what we talked about
in advance and like the onething that I just want to come
back to briefly, and thenanything that we missed is like
the in the frame story.
One of the things that is sortof interesting is like Paxson's
like I've been chasing thisthing for four years and I
didn't really understand it andlike it was a tragedy, and
before we hit record you werelike duh, and before we hit
(44:27):
record you were like duh.
I do think there's something tothis, because I think again like
part of the point was likethese were real people who
really died and it was a realtragedy which, like we didn't
need to sit through a fivemillion year movie in order to
like be reminded that it was areal tragedy where real people
died, and like real lives wereruined.
But maybe we did.
Maybe cameron needed that.
I don't like.
That little piece of tension ofyour door is what I wanted to
(44:48):
like.
Yeah, maybe unpack a little bitbefore we run out of time.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I think that's related to my dissatisfaction
with the old lady thrown thediamond, because bill paxton's
character is looking for thediamond and they actually even
have, like when he's on the newswith the image, like the
drawing of Rose, like they'reasking him, like don't people
think that it's likeunreasonable of you to be
(45:12):
looking for treasure when youknow this is like museum?
Speaker 2 (45:16):
A water grave for 2?
Speaker 1 (45:17):
yeah, water people or whatever and he says like well,
we have people who are doingthis, this and this, and there
is this sense like even as he'slooking for, like the first
scene is him like narratingsomething and one of his crew is
just like, oh, you're so fullof shit.
And then, like it's clear, he'sfocused on finding the jewel,
(45:38):
and so it's this, like it's theIndiana Jones, like I'm finding
the gold that belongs in amuseum and like not really
taking in the scope of like whatthis really means, right, and I
think, like I think that'sworth saying, I think that's
worth saying, I think that'sworth talking about.
And I feel like Cameron wastrying to say the heart of the
(46:01):
ocean doesn't matter, and that'swhy she throws it in the water
at the end.
But none of that is how humanbeings operate, and that's why
I'm so annoyed by it, becauselike no one would hold on to
that fucking thing for 84 yearsand then throw it away and then
(46:21):
throw it away.
Yeah, if you're gonna hold on toit, you hold on to it yeah, and
pass it on, or then yourgranddaughter gets money for it
or whatever.
Yeah, or you throw it awayright away because you're so
angry about what has justhappened to you, yeah, and so
like I know that this was likethis was supposed to be.
Like bill paxton understandingsomething, and like maybe bill
(46:45):
paxton is a stand-in for jamescameron.
Like, yeah, understandingsomething, yeah, but it's just
like it doesn't fit thecharacter, it doesn't't fit
human behavior.
And so like duh, this enormoushuman tragedy.
And like good on James Cameronfor making me cry.
(47:05):
It was the violinist and thequartet.
He said it's been a privilegeplaying with you tonight to the
quartet and I teared up becausethat is what it is to be human
to play while the titanic sinksand that is amazing and I will
be grateful forever to jamescameron for giving me that.
(47:27):
But I don't.
I feel like he got in his ownway there.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Yeah, he got part of the way there and then he got in
his own way.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
He needed it to mean something to him, and this is a
matter of not killing yourdarlings, because gross throwing
the heart of the way there.
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, he got part of the way there.
He got in his own way.
He needed it to mean somethingto him and this is a matter of
not killing your darlings.
Yes, because, rose, throwingthe heart of the sea into the
ocean is a darling that heshould have killed.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Yeah, yeah, unless he had 17-year-old Rose do it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Right, right, all right.
Well, we are really running outof time, so let me see if I can
reflect back to your thoughtson the Titanic.
So I'll start with yes, thedoor was big enough, but it
wasn't buoyant enough.
Okay, yes.
So this movie in some wayslacks a point because we don't
(48:09):
have sort of the moral of thestory, we don't have the bigger
meaning, we don't have the waysin which, like, rose's character
changed, right, like her lifewas changed by the experience,
but like there was no likegrowth that we're seeing.
So that is, I don't know,problematic.
This movie is frustrating, yeah.
As for the storytelling piece,this movie is much more
(48:32):
satisfying if we imagine thatthe gorgeous, very pretty, very
like boyish I'm putting quotesaround that Leonardo DiCaprio
playing Jack is in fact a transman and not a cisgender man, and
somehow that like reallytransforms the whole romance and
makes it less about Jack beinga savior and more about Jack
(48:54):
being a mentor who has beenthrough it before, right, so
someone who says, hey, I've beenwhere you are and here's how
you can get through it, and thenthat romance, sort of it, feels
more co-equal to me in the waythat you described it, the thing
that I said earlier was that itwas less about saviorism and
more about solidarity.
That is really a veryinteresting interpretation, and
(49:16):
I think that also helps tounderscore the feminism question
mark that maybe Cameron waslike trying for but didn't quite
make.
And we see that he was tryingfor it by really getting us as
an audience to deeply sympathizeand empathize with poor Rose
who is trapped in this life.
That is not just unsatisfyingbut causing suffering and
(49:38):
forcing her, like taking awayher agency and taking away her
choices.
Over and over and over again.
We have her being sort offeisty and telling the boat
designer that he has a smallpenis and having Molly Brown
laugh at that and having MollyBrown ask her fiance if he's
going to chew for her too, andthat sort of thing.
There's also this like regardingthat, that sort of feminist
(50:01):
piece or there was less like acall to action or even a
judgment and more like a here'sthe thing, here's the thing that
happens.
And there was a similar sort ofhere's the thing, here's the
thing that happens around classand classism in the boat, in the
way that the story unfolds andwhat we get to see about it,
that it wasn't even necessarilyjudgment.
And then there is a judgment,but like what do we do with it?
(50:24):
Because we see, though, thereare some people who are moral
human beings among the firstclass passengers many of them
many of them, we see, are justcompletely morally bankrupt,
self-serving and not afraid orembarrassed or ashamed to like
rose's mother, to like commitother people to death because
(50:45):
they're not of the same class.
Cameron, like showed ussomething and then didn't quite
turn it all the way around.
He also kind of got in his ownway, where he was committed to
this historic accuracy.
That was gorgeous and beautiful, made you cry with the
musicians on the deck in hishopeless situation, but then
(51:07):
also like he needed to throw theheart of the sea or whatever,
the diamond into the ocean.
And so he had ancient Rose doit, even though it was
completely out of character.
It's completely out of syncwith human behavior for someone
who held on to this thing forover 80 years.
And so we end up with thisdarling that maybe should have
been killed somewhere inrevisions and leaves you saying
(51:29):
like, where were his editors?
Where was his wife Saying don'tdo that?
So what did I forget?
Where was his?
Speaker 1 (51:37):
wife saying don't do that.
So what did I forget?
Just the spectacle of this film.
Like Cameron, he committed hiswhole ass.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
Whole ass.
He whole assed it.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
It's an amazing feat, Although, oddly enough, like as
high tech as special effectsare it has aged.
There are some things that, aswe all do, I like it a lot
better, if I assume that Jack isa trans man, yeah, cool.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
Well, I still don't really want to watch it, but I'm
really glad to know more aboutit.
So thank you for this.
Next week.
I am going to bring you my deepthoughts about a very obscure
movie that we loved as children,called the Beastmaster.
Speaker 1 (52:18):
That was the movie.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
That was why you wanted ferrets.
That is exactly why I wantedferrets was because of that
movie, so I'm looking forward torewatching it.
I haven't seen it in probably40 years, so next week I will
share my thoughts with you aboutit.
See you then.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
(52:39):
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon there's a link in the
show notes or leave a positivereview so others can find us and
, of course, share the show withyour people can find us and, of
(53:00):
course, share the show withyour people.
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin MacLeod from
incompetechcom.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Speaker 1 (53:07):
Thank you to Resonate Recordings for editing today's
episode.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
Until next time, remember pop culture is still
culture, and shouldn't you knowwhat's in your head?
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.