Send us a message! Include how to reach you if you want a response.
The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed, for lack of a better word, is good.
On today's episode, the Guy sisters welcome Emily's friend and co-author Joe Saul-Sehy, co-host of the wildly popular Stacking Benjamins podcast, to talk about the 1987 Oliver Stone film Wall Street. Even though it has had an enormous impact on the culture of finance (and Emily has written in the realm of finance for 15 years), neither of the Guy girls had seen the film, which Joe first watched in the theater as a teenager.
While Oliver Stone's storytelling offers pointed social commentary about the lack of morality and ethics on Wall Street, his masterful directing of Charlie Sheen, Michael Douglas, and Daryl Hannah also makes the culture of insider trading seem not only understandable but even glamorous to the audience. Sheen's Bud Fox follows the hero's journey as he learns that the high-flying life of immoral wealth he thinks he wants is nothing more than a fantasy--and it's not worth selling his soul to be accepted into Gordon Gekko's culture of greed.
Slick back your hair, grab those red suspenders, and take a listen!
Find Joe at stackingbenjamins.com
Check out the book Joe and Emily wrote! Stacked: Your Super-Serious Guide to Modern Money Management
This episode was edited by Resonate Recordings.
Our theme music is "Professor Umlaut" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Learn more about Tracie and Emily (including our other projects), join the Guy Girls' family, secure exclusive access to bonus episodes, video versions, and early access to Deep Thoughts by visiting us on Patreon or find us on ko-fi: https://ko-fi.com/guygirls
We are Tracie Guy-Decker and Emily Guy Birken, known to our family as the Guy Girls.
We have super-serious day jobs. For the bona fides, visit our individual websites: tracieguydecker.com and emilyguybirken.com. For our work together, visit guygirlsmedia.com
We're hella smart and completely unashamed of our overthinking prowess. We love movies and tv, science fiction, comedy, and murder mysteries, good storytelling with lots of dramatic irony, and analyzing pop culture for gender dynamics, psychology, sociology, and whatever else we find.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
I remember during the 80s and 90s and early 2000s,
(00:04):
every year or two you'd have aWall Streeter that's a big deal
going away.
It's been a long time sincethat's happened.
Which I find disturbing becauseas I watch the film, I'm fairly
certain this stuff is stillgoing on.
Oh sure.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'mdelighted to welcome my dear
friend Joe Saul Sehai to discusshis deep thoughts about the
Oliver Stone movie Wall Streetwith my sister, Tracy Guy
(00:58):
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So I am so excited to have myfriend Joe here.
Joe is my co-author on my mostrecent book, Stacked, Your Super
Serious Guide to Modern MoneyManagement, where Joe was kind
enough to let my humor off theleash because I usually have to
(01:19):
uh they usually edit it out if Iever make a joke.
And he's like, no, no, no, leaninto it, Em, which was awesome.
And the entire process ofwriting was about my goal was to
make Joe laugh.
So if you're not familiar withJoe, he is the co-host of
Stacking Benjamins, which is oneof the most listened to podcasts
(01:40):
in the personal finance sphere.
Seriously, if you haven'tlistened to Stacking Benjamins,
you really ought to.
Kip Ligner's Personal Financehas called the show the best
personal finance podcast, andFast Company has described it as
striking a great balance betweenfun and functional.
And Joe lives in Texarkana withhis spouse Cheryl and Kat named
(02:00):
Cooper.
And he records shows in hismom's basement because that's
where podcasters do their work.
So, Joe, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
I was disappointed that neither of you are in your
mom's basement.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
I mean, come on.
Yeah, unfortunately, that's justnot where we we record from.
We'll have to do better.
SPEAKER_03 (02:23):
Although when mom hears this episode, she's gonna
say, Yeah, why aren't you in mybasement?
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
That is a good point.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Yeah.
You should come on over.
And you know what's funny,Emily?
Thank you for the kind words.
And back at you.
I don't know if you know this,Tracy, but when I was writing my
half of the book, I had anaudience of one.
There was one person I waswriting for, and it was Emily.
SPEAKER_03 (02:47):
Well, as someone who's red stacked, I have to
say, whatever you did, itworked.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Thanks.
Just entertaining ourselves,like we're going to do for the
next hour.
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
So I guess we should start with what is in each of
the guy girls' heads about thismovie Wall Street, which for me,
I don't know that if I I've everseen it.
So whatever's in my head is justsort of the osmosis that it's
about like rich and ruthlesspeople.
That's about all I've got.
Rich and ruthless, and likepower suits with big shoulders.
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
Have have you, Emily?
You've read it or read it.
You've you watched it.
I have.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
Yeah, what's in your head?
I've actually never seen it.
This is one of those where likeyou haven't seen it either.
I know, I know.
So this is so I'm explaining itto both of you.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
I saw it again yesterday for maybe the 110th
time.
It's a number.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
You are a financial expert, so you know numbers.
That's right.
So it's another one.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
No, this is one of you don't even have to look it
up.
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
This is one of those films where I have Gordon Gecko
in my head.
He's a a financial figure that Ireference even though I've never
actually seen the movie.
Even though you've never seenit, it's like greed in a word is
good, is in my head.
And like the idea of MichaelDouglas with the slick back hair
and the red suspenders likemeans something.
(04:10):
And I make reference to it in mywriting sometimes, even though
I've never actually seen themovie.
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
So that's really interesting.
So it's just because it's acultural touchstone that I don't
know.
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
It has become, I mean, any movie that's become
that ubiquitous in society, evenfor people that haven't seen it,
it really, and it's funny howwell this movie held up when I
watched it again yesterday forthis episode.
It held up really, really well.
And in some ways, because it'sso disappointing that we haven't
changed.
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, before we get there, tellus, Joe, what's at stake for
you?
Why is this the one that when weinvited you to come on the
podcast?
You were like, I'm gonna talkabout Wall Street.
Why is this the one?
What's it what's in it for you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Well, this is the this is you know the stupid shit
in my head because of the factthat I wanted to go back myself
and see if this film, whichreally for some weird reason, I
mean, at the end of this movie,and uh I don't think I need to
say spoiler alert, because amovie that's this old, if you
haven't seen it, I think it's onyou.
Yeah, it's on us.
But at the end of the film, uheverybody goes to jail.
(05:14):
Like they all go to jail.
And yet I watch this film andI'm like, I want to get into
finance.
I think I look good in orange.
I think it'll be great.
SPEAKER_03 (05:27):
So there's definitely something at stake
here.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
I was so fascinated, and it's funny watching it no
longer like I did the first timein my I was maybe 17 when I saw
this movie the first time, andit hit this raw, masculine piece
of me, right?
There's this masculinity moviethat Oliver Stone has in a lot
of his films, and even yesterdayat 57, like beating my chest.
(05:54):
And but I wondered if that wouldcontinue.
And I also wondered this idea ofgreed is good, which you
referenced earlier, Tracy, whichcomes from this very famous true
speech that a guy named IvanBosky made that they that Oliver
Stone decided to attribute toGordon Gecko instead, because
he's very much this insidertrading guy that Ivan Bosky was
in real life, if how far away weare from that now.
(06:17):
And also the cultural and thegender roles.
I also wanted to know becauseWall Street in the 1980s, such a
sexist culture.
I mean, part of the chestbeating was women is objects.
And I wanted to go back and seeif in this movie if they
depicted that, because at thetime it was just so much of what
(06:39):
you expected.
Like I didn't know if OliverStone was really calling it out
on purpose or not.
So that's what was at stake forme.
SPEAKER_03 (06:47):
Great, cool.
Well, I haven't seen it.
Catch me up.
What happens in this movie?
SPEAKER_01 (06:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
What's the plot?
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Well, the movie begins.
I love the way the movie begins.
Charlie Sheen, who plays thepart of Bud Fox, who's this
young guy just starting off onWall Street.
He is on a very crowded street.
Like the scene opens and itshows all the crowds of New
York.
And then he goes into one ofthese big, huge office buildings
(07:14):
that looks exactly like theoffice building next to it,
looks exactly like the one nextto that.
And he's herded onto anelevator.
In fact, you can see in thatfirst scene people shoving, and
they make a big deal abouteverybody shoving into the
elevator and people gettingupset that they're being shoved
into the elevator.
They've crammed as many peopleas possible.
Then they open up the doors intothis office that at the front
(07:35):
looks really professional.
But once you get past thesecretary's desk, which Charlie
Sheen takes a second, Bud Foxtakes a second to flirt with the
secretary who flirts back.
And then they go around thecorner and this room is packed
with traders, just tons and tonsof people.
And you really get this feelingof Oliver Stone looking at us
(07:55):
like we're ants climbing overeach other, right?
And this idea that in these bigbuildings they're full of tons
and tons of people who are justpushing and shoving to try to
get to the top.
And Bud Fox is another one ofthese ants.
And very early on, you see thathe wants to do what he calls Bag
the Elephant, which is he wantsto work with this guy, Gordon
(08:18):
Gecko.
So every day he places a call toGordon Gecko's office, and every
day Gordon Gecko's assistanttells him, Stop calling us.
We're not interested.
Please, no, no, no, no, no, no,no.
And so that's the beginning,this idea that we are all so it
starts off with this ladderclimbing trying to get ahead of
(08:39):
other people, feeling thatsadly, I feel is a lot of people
today.
It's a ton of people today.
SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
Okay.
Keep going.
What happens?
What happens?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
All right.
So so in the film, then hefinally, he on the second day,
he sees on his little computerthat it's Gordon Gecko's
birthday.
So he gets Gordon Gecko'sfavorite cigars, and he takes
the cigars to Gordon Gecko'soffice and he presents it with
the cigars.
Gordon Gecko actually finallysees him.
(09:13):
There's a very iconic, memorablescene where once Bud Fox finds
out that Gordon Gecko's going tosee him, the secretary comes to
get him and says, You have fiveminutes.
And Bud looks in the mirror,adjusts his tie, and he says,
Life comes down to a fewmoments.
This is one of them.
And it's an incredibly,incredibly memorable line that
(09:34):
you know what?
Life does come down to a fewmoments.
You can think about the fewlittle things.
He goes into Gordon Gecko'soffice, and Gordon, as Bud Fox
says later, when he gets back tothe office, his guy sitting next
to him in the office says, Well,did he see you?
And he goes, He didn't just seeme, he saw right through me.
Because it's very dismissive.
(09:54):
The bad news is that halfwaythrough that meeting, Bud Fox
realizes that to get GordonGecko's attention, he's going to
have to sell his soul.
And now we're starting to set upthis idea of good versus evil.
And the fact that he takes acouple good stock picks to
Gordon, and Gordon goes, Yeah,no, I don't think so.
(10:16):
First one he calls a dog.
Second one he says it's a dog,but it has different fleas.
Nope.
And then Charlie Sheen in anearlier scene has been with his
dad, which is funny.
His dad works in maintenance atthis airline called Blue Star
Airlines.
And his dad is played by noneother than his real dad, Martin
(10:37):
Sheen.
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
Martin Sheen's in it as Charlie Sheen's dad.
That's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Yeah.
And so earlier he'd beenborrowing money from his dad in
just a very quick scene to showCharlie struggling to make ends
meet.
It also has shown Charlie on thephone, cold calling people, and
really just this nightmare of alife that he's living.
But his dad said something tohim that was insider trading
that this airline was going tohave a major event with the FAA
(11:01):
that was going to make anannouncement the next day and
nobody knew it.
And so you get this great viewOliver Stone shows Charlie
Sheen's face and the fact thathe knows he's lost Gordon
Gecko's attention.
He's got one more shot and hedoesn't want to miss it.
And he said, I think you shouldlook at Blue Star Airlines.
And Gordon Gecko goes, Oh,airlines, forget it.
(11:24):
Nothing.
He goes, Well, what you don'tknow is the FAA is about to rule
tomorrow and it's going to be inBlue Star Airlines' favor.
And Gordon Gecko says, How doyou know this?
And he goes, I have a, I justdo.
I just know it.
And you can see the look on hisface that he's disgusted with
himself.
But he's doing it because hewants to climb the ladder,
(11:45):
because he thinks Gordon Geckois this person that can take him
out of that cramped elevator andchange his life.
And so he walks out of theoffice.
Gordon says he'll consider it.
The guy next to him says, Yeah,did he see you?
He saw right through me.
Three minutes later in themovie, there's a phone call,
Buddy pickup line two.
(12:06):
Buddy at his desk with all theother people around picks up the
phone and says, Yeah, this isBud Fox.
And then it hands to MichaelDouglas, who is Gordon Gecko,
and he goes, Okay, Bud Fox,let's go buy some Blue Star
Airlines and put some money inthese other dog with flea stocks
you told me, but let's see howyou do.
And then he hangs up the phoneand Charlie Sheen stands up and
(12:27):
goes, Woo! I bagged theelephant.
Super great moment.
From that moment on in themovie, Bud Fox's life begins to
change.
After Blue Star Airlines goesthrough the roof the next day on
this FAA news, the other stocksthat he recommended that Gordon
put a little bit of money in,lost money.
Gordon has him come to playracquetball with him.
(12:50):
And it's Gordon Gecko's way oftelling Bud Fox that he's fired.
That, you know what, unlessyou've got another person you
know at the airline, unless yourdad works for some other
company, I think is what hesays.
I don't think we can do businessanymore.
And Charlie Sheen, Bud Fox,says, please give me another
chance, just one more chance.
And Gordon Gecko says, followme.
Let me show you my charts.
(13:11):
And it's all insider trading.
And he tells Bud Fox, if youwant to work with me, you got to
get me information.
This is not about working hard.
In fact, they pull up at a stopsign and there is a homeless
person next to a guy in a suit.
And Gordon Gecko says to BudFox, You think the difference
between these people is luck?
(13:33):
You think it's hard work?
It isn't either one of thosethings.
That person has informationabout the world that that person
doesn't have.
Now, patently not true.
100% not true.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Watching the movie evenyesterday, I buy into it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Because Gordon Gecko and Michael Douglas plays this
guy so well, is so charismaticand has made so much money and
is such a mentor figure to BudFox, which you completely buy
into this mentor-menteerelationship.
And the fact that he's now solda soul to Gordon Gecko, he's
listening to every word and is aguy watching it.
I'm watching every word.
(14:11):
So Gordon says, So that's what Ineed from you is information.
You let me know if you want apiece of that.
So he lets Bud Fox out of hislimousine.
Then there's a knock immediatelyon the window.
Gordon Gecko rolls down thewindow, and Charlie Sheen,
another iconic scene, says,Okay, Gordon, I'm in.
Which means I am now going to bea criminal for you.
(14:34):
And then his life throughout themovie gets better.
It just gets better and betterand better and better and
better.
Which brings up, I think,another topic, which is how much
is enough?
There's this whole subtext ofenough.
Gordon Gecko makes fun ofwealthy people because they're
not wealthy enough.
(14:54):
He actually talks in one sceneabout how I'm not talking about
writing first class rich.
That's everybody.
That's nothing.
I'm talking about command theroom rich.
I'm talking about hundreds ofmillions of dollars rich.
That's who you want to be, BudFox.
And I can make you that guy.
And again, the most masculinelizard brain piece of me, even
(15:20):
at 57, a guy that no longerbelieves any of this stuff, just
watched the movie yesterday.
Let's go own everything.
I want to own it all.
SPEAKER_03 (15:32):
And it's funny.
Joe just beat his chest forthose of you who can't see him.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
I found myself horrified by my reaction.
Yeah.
Which I think is why there wereso many.
The movie won an Academy Award.
It was up for a ton of AcademyAwards.
And I think it was OliverStone's ability to bring this
out in us.
And part of what I foundfascinating about the movie was
to find my reaction to thescenes, these visceral reactions
(15:58):
I was having, which wasphenomenal.
It was outstanding.
Partway through the film, asthey're going on this lovely
insider trading jaunt together,Gordon and Bud holding hands,
becoming best friends.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Tripping through the daisies of insider trading.
Right.
unknown (16:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
And Daryl Hanna is dating another guy.
Gordon Gecko sees the fact thatBud really likes Daryl Hannah's
character and sets them up,makes sure that Daryl Hanna is
able to begin dating Bud Foxinstead.
And her name is Darien in thepiece.
(16:55):
You find out later on in thefilm that Darion, who's an
interior designer, at this pointshe's head over heels for Bud
Fox.
In fact, she tells Gordon Gecko,I think I'm really falling for
Bud.
And Gordon says, You don't wantto do that yet.
He hasn't been around the basesyet, and you've been around them
several times.
You know what this life is like,and he doesn't know what this
(17:17):
life is like yet.
So I'd pump the brakes.
But he also says that to herwhile he's holding her hand.
And he just said to her, afterthis art exhibition they go to
together, and they bid on somepieces, millions of dollars on
pieces for Gordon, and she'sadvising him.
He said, Why don't we go, whydon't we go to a hotel and do
what we used to do?
(17:38):
And she's like, Yeah, those daysare over.
And he said, You haven't toldBud about us, have you?
And Darien says, No, and I don'twant him to ever find out about
us.
You get this feeling throughoutthe film that Gordon Gecko has
(17:59):
leased a woman to Bud Fox.
And the woman is okay with it,which is creepy, because of the
fact that Gordon Gecko has givenher so much money and so much
stuff.
And Bud initially kind of knowsit, but he doesn't want it that
(18:19):
to be the case.
He wants them to be falling inlove.
Until a scene later on with hisdad, he tries to get Gordon
Gecko to help him save Blue StarAirlines later.
So he brings his dad to thismeeting.
He brings the head of thesedifferent unions at Blue Star
Airlines into this meeting sothat Gordon can save the
airline.
And Gordon comes up with thisgreat plan that everybody likes
(18:40):
except Martin Sheen.
And Martin Sheen immediately hasthis line where he said
something like, I don't go tobed with a whore at night and I
don't wake up with one the nextday.
And it's funny because he's notreferring to Darien.
He's referring to Gordon Gecko,who he sees every day, who he
thinks is a whore.
But during that time, also BudFox goes, wait a minute.
(19:04):
You see the light also come on,going, I'm also in this
relationship where I don't thinkthis woman is as attached to me
as she is attached to the factthat I'm gonna make a ton of
money.
I'm a hetchman to Gordon's andI'm close to Gordon.
It's a way for her to stay closeto Gordon.
And she she loves this idea ofwho he is, which is incredibly
(19:24):
creepy.
It is, it's incredibly creepy.
In fact, it's funny.
I was a little creeped out byit.
I remember when I was 18.
But the fact that, come on, it'sDaryl Hannah.
I mean, I heard Emily last timetalk about Keanu Reeves.
I mean, come on.
In your last episode, doingthat, I can do it today about
Daryl Hannah, right?
I mean, 17-year-old Joe waslike, oh, Bud Fox, Daryl Hannah.
(19:50):
Wow.
Says this gloss over part, butit's it was the idea that we're
all for sale.
And Bud Fox during the movie,realizing three quarters of the
way through the movie, that notonly is he for sale, Daryl
Hannah's been for sale.
All these people who are linedup to serve Gordon Gecko, who
(20:12):
doesn't want to save Blue StarAirlines, he tells Bud Fox he's
gonna save Blue Star Airlines.
Bud let out the fact thatthere's an overfunded pension
and he can get his hand on$57million very easily.
Gordon's just going after thepension, and Bud Fox finds out
very accidentally that GordonGecko is going to break up the
airline.
(20:33):
He's just gonna destroy it.
And then at the end of themovie, it's this quest.
The movie then is a quest at theend for Charlie Sheen, for Bud
Fox, to try to redeem himselfand to try to go back to this
what's right and wrong, to kindof right all the wrongs in his
life and save the airline andsave his dad's company and save
(20:56):
these jobs.
In fact, that's anotherundercurrent of this movie.
Lives and jobs, often throughoutthe movie, in lots of ways,
people that are making moneyjust to sustain themselves, and
these people who are destroyingit with no thought whatsoever
about the lives that are beingdestroyed.
In fact, early in the game, BudFox is in on it.
Gordon Gecko is breaking up acompany or is going after
(21:18):
another trader who's trying tosave a company.
Gordon Gecko knows he's tryingto save a company.
So Gordon uses it as a way tomake a ton of money.
He breaks up the fact that thisinherently good thing that
stocks and money can provide fortons of people, it can provide
for an entire community.
Gordon goes in and breaks it upbecause it's an easy way for him
(21:43):
to make just more money in hispocket, which becomes another
iconic line in the movie.
How many yachts can you waterskibehind?
Bud Fox, near the end of themovie, says to Gordon Gecko, How
many yachts can you waterskibehind?
What's enough?
What is enough?
So I think there's this idea ofbeware what you ask for, right?
He wants to stop ladder climbingand Gordon Gecko's his way out
(22:06):
of it.
It turns out Gordon Gecko's nothis way out of it, he's climbing
a different ladder now.
Right.
And he's climbing a much moremalicious ladder.
And I thought about this as Ifinished the movie, I'm like,
was Bud Fox better off havinggone through this journey than
he was when he's crowded in theelevator at the beginning?
SPEAKER_03 (22:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
And the sad news is I think he was.
I think he actually was betteroff that he did this insider
training stuff.
And maybe, and Martin Sheen saysthis to him during one of the
last scenes, maybe it's actuallygood that he's going to jail.
Maybe there's some good in it.
Maybe it is the universe helpinghim course correct, even though
(22:52):
when he ends up getting GordonGecko good and gets Gordon Gecko
caught by the he helps the fedsget Gordon Gecko.
So he's already had someredemption, but going to jail
and serving time might have beena good thing.
I agree with Martin Sheen.
One more thing that I founddisturbing about this movie now,
and this is not me 57 versus me17.
(23:16):
I think the last time thathappened that somebody got taken
out on Wall Street in handcuffsthat made big news was during
the financial crisis.
And there was only one person,and it was a person who felt if
you go look this up, I don'tremember the guy's name.
I should have done it fortoday's prep work, but I do know
(23:37):
there was one guy, and it wasbecause he felt guilty that he
had bilked so many people whenall the banks, you know, all of
this underhanded stuff was goingon.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
So like the Lehman brothers and all of that stuff
that went down.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah.
All the bankers trying to savethemselves, right?
Only one person went to jailduring that.
Was the one with the conscience.
Yeah.
And I don't remember, Emily,anybody since then.
Like I don't remember the Iremember during the 80s and 90s
and early 2000s, every year ortwo you'd have a Wall Streeter
that's a big deal going away.
(24:13):
It's been a long time sincethat's happened.
Which I find disturbing becauseas I watch the film, I'm fairly
certain this stuff is stillgoing on.
Oh, sure.
I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Yeah.
Well, that we had the too big tofail thing, which I remember
being so infuriating.
Gosh, now that's been like morethan 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_03 (24:33):
Yeah.
With the mortgages and stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:36):
I'm going to bring it back to the movie because
something that as you're tellingthe story of the actual plot of
the film, Emily and I have beentalking offline a lot about the
hero's journey and sort of theheroine's journey or the
virgin's promise.
And I'm realizing, like asyou're talking about this, that
there's a degree to which Budgoes through the hero's journey,
right?
The ordinary world in thispacked elevator and then this
(24:59):
extraordinary world with GordonGecko.
And then he has to return to theordinary world.
That's how the hero's journeyworks, but he returns changed.
And so I think there's somethingreally interesting in your
question like, is he better off?
If we look at it in thatnarrative frame, he's better off
because he grew.
And that's the point of thehero's journey.
(25:19):
That's what makes Bud theprotagonist.
He grows and changes as a resultof the action of the story.
So I think that's a reallyinteresting like layer to lay on
top of this.
Cause you're looking at theethics, right?
The morality.
Like I hear you regrettingalmost that this guy's better
off for having been a criminaland like hurting people.
(25:41):
And yet, narratively, we needhim to grow and change in some
way as a result of the action.
Otherwise, why are we watchingthis?
Right?
Like, there's no story there ifthere's no growth, or there's
not a story that Westerners findinteresting if there's no
growth.
So I think there's somethinglike really interesting about
(26:02):
that.
I also am very interested withthat layer about the dad, Martin
and Sheen's role.
Because like, Emily, help me outhere.
Like the hero's journey fromJoseph Campbell, there we move
from the ordinary to theextraordinary, and there's
mentors.
That's one of the components ofthe hero's journey.
So obviously Gordon is one ofthem.
(26:23):
But dad is one too.
And he's actually the moralmentor.
And when he is in jeopardy,that's when Bud actually wakes
up from the moral ambiguity ofthis extraordinary world that
Gordon has taken into.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Absolutely.
Well, I what's interesting, I'mgonna layer on top of that.
So one of the things that I findfascinating in the financial
world is talking about moneyscripts, which both of you have
heard me talk ad infinitum aboutthis.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Yeah, but our listeners haven't.
Catch us up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
So that's Dr.
Bradley Klantz and his researchpartner Sonia Britt.
Dr.
Sonia Britt came up with this.
These are unconscious beliefsthat we have about money that we
created in childhood and thennever really challenged because
we don't talk about money.
It's a taboo subject in ourculture.
So the example I give of likeother kind of thing that we come
(27:19):
up with in childhood becausechildren are great observers but
not great interpreters, is ourmom, when she was a very little
girl, thought that doctors wentto jail if they got sick.
And of course, she was disabusedof that notion because we talk
about doctors.
But if talking about doctorswere taboo, she might still hold
on to that belief.
Whereas money, because it'staboo, we don't talk about the
(27:41):
beliefs that we come up withabout money.
And so these money scripts arelike reinforced over our
lifetimes.
And so we talked a little bitabout money scripts in our
Avalon episode, but Klantz andBritt came up with four basic
types of money scripts.
There's money avoidance, moneyworship, money status, and money
vigilance.
(28:01):
So, anyway, within those moneyscripts, they are like the way
that we interpret how moneyworks and we take it as like a
given.
This is just how money is.
And it's the reason why theknockdown, drag up fight you
have with your significantother, your partner, is most
likely to be about money becauseyou're going like, well, this is
(28:22):
just how money is.
And they're going, like, you'remaking me crazy because that's
not how money is, it's how thisis, and you're coming at it from
different directions.
So what this is telling me isthat Bud Fox would have been
incapable of getting howethically wrong what Gordon
Gecko was doing without actuallyexperiencing it.
(28:46):
Because until he had gonethrough the experience of seeing
what this actually cost someonehe cared about, it had to be
someone.
It had to be someone he caredabout.
Because he did see he did seethe cost.
But it had to be someone hecared about because for him,
presumably he had either moneystatus or money worship or both.
(29:10):
Because those are both the thoseare commonly definitely both.
People commonly have themtogether.
And so for that, what if youhave those those two money
scripts?
The idea more money is better,and I need to have that money to
show people that my life isgood, that I am good, and damn
the consequences, it's worth itto sell my soul to get there.
(29:34):
And until I actually see thedevastation that this causes,
and I really recognize thatokay, the people who are losing
their jobs and losing theirpensions, it's fine, they'll be
okay.
That's a lie I'm telling myself.
And so putting that with JosephCampbell's hero's journey is
(29:56):
necessary for someone with thosemoney scripts.
To be able to get to that pointwhere they like, oh my gosh, I
have done a terrible thing.
And it sounds like Bud Fox wouldnot have ever gotten there.
He would have continued toidolize Gordon.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Emily, they articulate exactly what you're
saying several times during themovie.
Bud Fox says it, Darien says itwhen he is, he's getting ready
to break up with her and herealizes this relationship is
toxic.
It's not at all what I want.
And she repeats something thatBud Fox had said earlier and now
was rejecting, which was ifGordon Gecko didn't break these
(30:35):
companies up, somebody elsewould have.
So Gordon's not bad.
This was inevitable.
This was, and it is, Emily, 100%this lie that you tell yourself
that no, it it's okay.
This isn't that bad.
These people would have been outof work anyway.
Because look at this company,Gordon Gecko said himself, this
company was breakable.
I think he said.
He said, Why are you breakingBlue Star Airlines?
(30:57):
Gordon says, because it'sbreakable, because I can.
And if I don't do it, somebodyelse is going to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah, that reminds me of it's not a great film, but
my kids recently, for our weeklymovie night, they had us watch
the Lorax, the recent one.
And it's a musical, and there'sa song that's actually quite
good where I can't remember the,but the one who creates the
thneeds, that guy, sings, Howbad can I be when he's
destroying all the truffulatrees?
(31:24):
And it's like that, whereinstead of asking, like, is this
the right thing to do?
Am I doing something wrong?
You ask, How bad can I be?
Is it really so bad?
And that is like when you'reputting it that way, you're
asking the wrong question.
SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
On a scale of one to 10, it's only an eighth of
three.
Yeah, exactly.
unknown (31:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
I I think there's something really interesting in
this movie itself and in yourresponse to it, Joe, even now at
57, when you've gotten past allthe things, like the fact that
like watching it, and you namedthat this is Oliver Stone's gift
to make you not just sympathizewith these guys, but like really
like want to be them.
(32:05):
I want to unpack this a littlebit because it's it seems clear
to me that we've got good andevil, we've got white collar and
blue collar.
And I'm putting those in thesame column, right?
Or sorry, the opposite column.
The white collar or the evil,the blue collar or the good,
right?
We've got Martin Sheen, he's thegood mentor.
We've got Michael Douglas, he'sthe bad mentor, white collar,
blue collar.
And there's money scripts bakedinto that that Oliver Stone
(32:27):
clearly has about like wheremerit and honor and morality lie
vis-a-vis money.
And it's not with Gordon Geckoand the extraordinary word that
Bud Fox eventually rejects.
And yet, here you are, and youknow a lot about money and how
money works and how wealthworks.
(32:49):
And here you are, like beatingyour chest as you're watching
this movie.
Like, what is he tapping into?
I mean, you named masculinity.
Can we dig into that a littlebit?
Like, this is a masculinity.
It's not like I'm the biggestand the strongest and I can beat
you up, but it's in thatdirection with money.
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
I think you feel viscerally the dopamine hit of
having, of acquiring.
When he moves from this, theymake a big deal that he's in
this little Upper East Sideapartment, and then he moves
into one of the swankiest partsof town, and he is in this
beautiful high-rise.
Of course, Darien, because she'san interior designer.
(33:30):
She outfits it with all this artthat he thinks is absolutely
horrible, but still is this chicplace.
I looked at the art, I look atthis place.
I don't know that I'd want tolive there, but he's on the
phone talking about futures inthe Asian markets while he's
mixing a drink and the lightsare low, and you can see
(33:52):
Manhattan down below while he'son the phone and this beautiful
bar.
And and I immediately thought, Iwant that.
SPEAKER_04 (34:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Like, wow, can I have?
Please just give me this veryhuman thing.
It frustrates me every time I gointo a mall and you see how
many, which isn't that often.
And it's funny that the lessoften I go into the mall, the
more it strikes me.
Why are so many peopleentertained by walking around
this place where every singlething in here, at some point, no
(34:23):
matter how good we are to it, nomatter how much we take care of
it, it's all going to end up ina landfill at some point.
And when you think of a mall asa future landfill, it grosses
you out.
It's horrible.
And yet, inside of me, last timeI was at a mall, I had the same
feeling.
I'm like, oh, maybe I want that.
Ooh, I want that.
I want that.
I want that.
And so I think there's thatpiece of all of us that says, as
(34:47):
I'm watching this movie, alsothis aspirational piece, I think
that's the Hero Horatio Algerman pulling himself up by the
bootstraps, right?
And finding a way to do betterthan his dad did, right?
His dad clearly blue collargonna be okay, but he tells his
dad, he's like, I don't want tolive in Queens.
(35:08):
Who wants to live in Queens?
Yeah.
And then by the end of themovie, he's like, I would love
to live in Queens.
I would absolutely love to havethis family that my dad has.
I would love to have the peoplearound me that care about me
that my dad has.
And this big, huge house with aspouse.
By the way, Gordon Gecko'sspouse, this is an interesting
(35:29):
side note also about genderroles.
Sean Young plays this part, andshe was kind of a big deal back
in the 80s, and she's athrowaway actress in this
playing Gordon Gecko spouse.
Because in Gordon Gecko's world,again, women for sale, she is
just a accessory in his game,and Oliver Stone is doing that
(35:53):
with her as an actor.
He's taking her and giving herthis throwaway, this wonderful
actor, and is just dumping herinto these scenes where she's
just the person going to getdrinks for everybody,
introducing people at the partybecause of the role that she
plays.
So I don't know, this idea thatI have to own it, the disgusting
idea of I have to own otherpeople is um the I am reminded
(36:19):
of we just we recently recorded,it hasn't been released yet when
we're recording this.
SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
It will be by the time this goes live.
We recently recorded an episodeabout the jerk where Steve
Martin's character wants to besomebody.
And like there's a place whereyou can arrive when you get the
drink with the umbrella in itwhen you are somebody.
And I'm that's I'm hearingechoes of that, but not funny in
what you're talking about rightnow, right?
You could be talking aboutfutures on the Asian market on
(36:44):
the phone with the low lightsand the drink you just made
yourself with Manhattan in thebackground and the beautiful
girlfriend or wife, like thenyou'll be somebody.
And it's all about sort of yeah,the accessories rather than what
he realizes at the end about therelationships and the real
meaning and the real life.
There's a juxtaposition there,but Oliver Stone showing us that
(37:07):
like taps into the thing we haveall imbibed that, like to be
somebody, you gotta have thesethings, and you gotta be a dude
with a good-looking girl on yourarm.
SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
Right.
Just one more point on that nearthe end of the movie, and I
didn't remember this from thebajillion times I'd seen this
film before.
Bud Fox is looking out thewindow from this gorgeous
apartment over Manhattan, andhe's just staring off into this
place that you think that wewould all want.
And he says out loud, Who am I?
(37:43):
Which is just a huge, huge linenow for me.
Because he's unrecognizable evento himself, because he's gotten
all these things that he thoughtthat he wanted.
And in the course of gettingeverything he wanted, he's taken
the piece that is most core tohis being and he's lost it.
It's gone.
It's 100% gone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
Yeah.
That actually piggybacks reallywell into what I was going to
get into, which is so somethingI end up talking about a lot to
people is in 15 years of writingabout money, I have become
radicalized in ways that I wouldnever have expected.
One of them being is, and I saythis a lot, is that money
doesn't actually exist.
It's this shared delusion.
(38:24):
We have all collectively decidedthat these little green pieces
of paper and these small discsof metal are worth money or
worth something.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
And bits and bites.
And what bits and bites.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Which is so weird if you think about it.
And then because it doesn'texist, so like we could all of
us survive off the grid, or ifthe meter comes without money.
We can't survive without food,without clothes, without
shelter, without water, but wecan survive without money.
And so because of that, we putour own interpretation on money,
(39:00):
our own meaning on money, ourown neuroses, our own like
psychological definition,morality, ethics, all of that.
And so when it comes to GordonGecko and Bud Fox, and so
they're putting Gordon isputting meaning on money where
he's like making fun of wealthypeople for not being wealthy
enough, because for him, it's ascore.
(39:22):
Like he's saying you are notplaying the game well enough.
You don't have a high enoughscore in that game because
that's what it means to him whenit's like it doesn't have
anything to do with actuallybeing able to live a good life
or get the resources he needs orbe generous to others or any of
(39:46):
the other things that money canbe used for.
Or even like luxury and waterskiing behind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you can only waterskibehind one at a time.
So, and then that fits into budasking himself, who am I?
Because like he thought hewanted money and all the things
that it can buy him.
(40:07):
But once he has that, herealizes he doesn't know who he
is anymore because he's lost thething that made him who he is.
And that's because money doesn'tactually exist.
He's chasing after a phantom,he's chasing after this shared
delusion by giving up the thingsthat are real, like his own
ethical code, his father, hisrelationships.
(40:27):
His father.
SPEAKER_04 (40:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:28):
And those are real things.
And he's given them up for ashared delusion for someone who
is completely amoral and doesn'tcare about him.
Doesn't care about him at alland will completely betray him
at the first opportunity if hecan get a higher score in the
money game.
There's money.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
And tried to.
I mean, he tried to break up,use his connection with Bud Fox
to destroy the company.
Yeah, destroy the airline andhis dad is hired at him.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (40:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
I mean, his own dad's gonna lose his job, and
Gordon Gecko doesn't care if BudFox's dad loses his job.
Right.
It's like I don't care.
I think he even says at onepoint to Bud, he said, Well,
your dad's close enough toretirement.
Who cares?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
Yeah, but wasn't he stealing his pension too?
SPEAKER_01 (41:11):
Right, right.
Good point.
Yeah.
And that's what struck me thistime.
And this is looking back on myown personal money journey.
I think about some of the thingsin life that I've personally
asked for, that I've wanted outof life.
And I think this is a lessonthis movie really goes into
(41:34):
that.
I don't know if it went over myhead.
I saw it before, but I reallyfelt it this time, which is this
idea of beware what you ask for.
Because Bud Fox tied GordonGecko to the answer to all of
his problems, he ended up with awhole different set of problems.
Stephen Covey in Seven Habits ofHighly Affected People says,
(41:55):
when you pick up a stick, youpick up the other side.
I think you have to ask yourselfwhat the other side really is.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
Because once he saw the other side, once he got on
the other side, and how often dowe do that in life?
And how often, Emily, to yourpoint, do we do that with money?
We think in our money scriptthat the other side is going to
be so much better.
It's going to be so, oh, if Ijust do this thing, if I have
this thing, if I live in thegreat apartment, if I have the
phenomenal girlfriend, if I havethe whatever, my life is going
(42:22):
to be great.
He gets all this stuff and hislife sucks.
It's just it's no good.
And then of course, then itreally sucks when the feds show
up.
SPEAKER_03 (42:30):
Right.
That's uh right.
This question of like oh, that'ssomething that this question of
like enough.
SPEAKER_02 (42:38):
Okay, you go, then me.
SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
This question of enoughness that Bud asks Gordon,
I think is really interestingwhen we sort of talk about like
wanting to be somebody and whatwe want.
Because money is a delusion,there will be never be enough if
that is in fact what we'reseeking, because there's always
more.
SPEAKER_04 (43:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:01):
So I think that's and that's here in this film,
clearly, explicitly, heunderlined the thesis.
Like Stone underlined thethesis.
We didn't need to guess.
And yet, a lot of people wentinto trading because of this
movie.
So I think there's like aninteresting circle there.
You go, Emily.
SPEAKER_02 (43:21):
So that brings up something I tell my kids all the
time, which is life is not abuffet.
So if there's something that youwant, you think that you're just
going to, well, for one thing,you'll if you are jealous of
something someone has, you'reimagining that you just take
that thing and you put it onyour plate, and that's not how
it works.
No, it's more like, do youreally want their life?
(43:44):
Because that's what it would belike.
But also, if you imagine there'ssomething that you want, you
have to imagine the entirething.
It's not a buffet where you justput it on your plate.
That it comes with a bunch ofother stuff that you may not
even know about.
And so it's not a matter oflike, oh yeah, you're just gonna
(44:05):
put the potato salad on yourplate.
It comes with like you gottapeel the potatoes and you gotta
do a lot more than just imagineyou get the finished product and
the feds are gonna be after you,or whatever it is, because life
is not a buffet.
And so whatever it is that youthink is missing from your life,
(44:25):
you have to know that there is alot more to it than whatever it
is that's missing, whatever itis that you imagine is missing.
And that is something like Ifeel like often people miss the
point of movies in the same waythat people saw Fight Club and
they didn't they started FightClubs.
(44:46):
And I was just like, did wewatch the same movie?
SPEAKER_03 (44:54):
Or it's also like though, it's also like what you
talk about, Emily, what you talkabout horror films, where we end
up Freddie Krueger iseverywhere, and we all know his
name and his likeness and hisquippy quips, but we don't know
Nancy Thompson's name, eventhough she is actually the hero.
She's the one that beats him andhe's the bad guy.
(45:15):
I feel like this is one of thosewhere Gordon Gecko becomes sort
of the guy whose name is in ourheads and whose phrases are in
our heads, even though he is infact a villain in this movie.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Yeah, there is a piece of him all the way
through, though.
And this is the miracle, Ithink, of Oliver Stone.
His ability to make you want tobe the villain, to make you want
to be that guy, to take therisks that he's taken, to climb
the mountains that he's taken,to be the person who's the
disruptor instead of the personon the other end who's being
disrupted, right?
I think there's a piece in allof us that fears that whatever
(45:50):
life we're living is going tohave someone come in from the
outside and disrupt it.
Well, I want to Gordon Gecko,he's the prime mover.
I want to be the prime mover.
I don't want you to be the primemover.
I found that fascinating.
SPEAKER_03 (46:01):
Yeah, that is fascinating.
I mean, even in the as I justsaid, like this movie that is
really a meditation on the moralmess of trading that convinced a
whole generation of people to gointo it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
Well, heck, even just the moral mess of money,
even today.
I mean, even and I think thatthat moral mess because we
because it's so human.
The movie is so human in itsapproach, that's why it holds
up.
You you mentioned at thebeginning, Tracy, about stakes.
There's a piece of this filmthat I did not mention because
there's so many sub, like anygood textured film, there's all
(46:38):
these little subplots going on.
But one subplot in the film,there's a wonderful actor who
passed away a few years agonamed Hal Holbrook, who's in
this movie.
And Hal Holbrook plays the guywho is a pretty good trader, not
a phenomenal trader, but he'scrafted this nice life for
himself.
Bud Fox sees him at thebeginning of the film, like just
(47:02):
just stuck in the middle ground,not really going far enough, but
not really going all the way.
He believes Hal Holbrook couldbe this bigger thing.
And Hal Holbrook consistently inthe movie puts his arm around
Bud Fox.
And if you know who Hal Holbrookis, this totally's gonna sound
like him.
There's no shortcuts, Bud.
You can't get there the quickway.
(47:24):
Whatever's happening now, it'snot gonna continue, Bud.
I don't know what's going onhere because Bud Fox all of a
sudden's making tons of money.
Hal Holbrook puts his arm on andgoes, I don't know what's going
on here, but I gotta tell youit's not gonna last.
I gotta tell you, this isn't it.
And at the end of the film, whenBud Fox walks into his office
and everybody's just staring athim because they know what Bud
(47:44):
doesn't know, that the feds arein his office.
He says, Did somebody die?
And his buddy that he used tosit next to on the trading floor
before he had his own officesaid, Yeah, somebody died and
just looks at him.
And then Hal Holbrook puts hisarm around him and said, Bud,
when man stares into the abyss,that's when he finds out who he
(48:04):
really is.
And Bud Fox looks at him becausehe still has no idea what the
hell's going on and is like,good talk, Al.
Like, thank you, thank you somuch.
Okay, weirdo, whatever.
And then he gets it 10 minuteslater.
But they're contrasting this oldguy on one hand with a guy who
really I think Hal Holbrook isenough in the movie.
He has enough.
(48:25):
He does take this straightnarrow path with another old guy
who at the beginning of the filmis struggling and two-thirds of
the way through the film isgetting fired because he's not a
productive trader.
And you see this guy that spenthis whole life doing something
and he hasn't made enough money.
(48:45):
He even tells the sales managerwho's firing him, he goes, Well,
after the divorces, I justcan't.
And you can see this guy neverbuilt anything, he never built
for himself a life.
So you can see the stakes inthis old guy who isn't making it
forcing Bud to think I can't bethe guy who's not making it.
(49:06):
And also then when he gets ataste of Gordon Gecko, I don't
want to be Hel Hobrook becauseGordon Gecko is living this
life.
Uh Hel Hobrook has to come inand still pedal stocks every
day.
I don't want to be that guy.
I want to be this supersuperman.
And I found this juxtapositionto be really uh important
because I think sometimes, likeBud, we get these signals in our
(49:30):
life that we think we got to dosomething.
And maybe we do need to move,but we take the wrong action
because of the fact that we seesomebody failing in front of us.
There were 50 things that BudFox could have done with the
information of this guy'sfailing and I don't want to be
this guy.
I don't want to be 70 years oldand being fired because you
can't keep up.
SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm actually gonna look back andtry and wrap us up.
I'm gonna reflect back to youwhat I heard, Joe.
So you guys should nuance me,correct me, make sure if I
forgot anything.
I think the number one thing Iheard from the lesson from this
movie was really about bewarewhat you ask for, be careful
(50:11):
what you wish for, because youjust might get it.
And sort of we said it in acouple different ways.
Life is not a buffet, there'sthe other end of the stick.
We used a couple of differentmetaphors for the fact that like
it's a whole package.
And so if you get Gordon Gecko'slife, you get the criminal uh
charges as well.
So that was sort of the biggestthing.
But we also spent some timetalking about the kind of very
(50:32):
human sense, which maybe isinfluenced by my scripts and
also by our culture, and alsojust sort of like the dopamine
hit of possessing, of beingsomebody.
I'm putting quotes around that,of having.
And I equated that with sort ofbeing the biggest and the
strongest, but it's also justsort of about like, yeah, being
the guy who is the disruptor, isthe way that you just named it.
(50:54):
Like the person who is in somesort of control, or it seems as
though they are, and so we chasewhat they have.
That picture is very specific.
Picture, and it's a dude, andhe's white, and he's got lots of
stuff, and he's got a prettygirl.
And in fact, girls in thisworld, women, are just
(51:15):
accessories.
They're the same as the drinkand the apartment and the yacht.
They're not actually humanbeings, they're just
accessories.
You also brought to us, we sortof spent some time teasing out
the morality of money and thehierarchy of money, white collar
versus blue collar, like sort ofworthy money that we actually
(51:38):
earn by blue-collar workers orby Hal Holbrook, who doesn't
take shortcuts versus like notworthy money, evil money that we
get by hurting people throughbreaking stuff up because we
can.
The lies we tell ourselves inorder to continue to do that.
We brought in the narrativestructure that Oliver Stone
used, that this is maybe ahero's journey from the ordinary
(52:01):
world to the extraordinary,growth and change back to the
ordinary and to jail.
Emily brought in the fact thatthis also was dependent upon
sort of money scripts.
That was the growth and changethat Bud needed to make.
He needed to be able to confronthis own money scripts, which we
don't ever talk about.
And there was also in the sortof blue-collar worthy money, no
(52:23):
shortcuts, worthy money, andwhite-collar shortcuts, not
worthy money.
There's also sort of ameditation about real lives and
real jobs and real people versusmoney that's just about more,
and when is it enough?
And how many yachts can youwaterski behind?
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
No, I don't think I don't think you forgot anything.
SPEAKER_03 (52:45):
I think you got it.
I'm sure I forgot something.
No, no, you know what I didforget is the fact that Stone, I
think you pointed this out, Joe,that part of Stone's Oliver
Stone's sort of genius is likemaking us not just sympathize
with the villain, but actuallysort of want to be him.
And like that sort of momentthat even now, even though you
are so much more evolved thanyou were when you were 17,
(53:08):
you're still watching this movieand beating your chest, like,
yeah, I want that too.
I want that too.
And there's a certain degree ofjust really psychological
genius, I think, is what I heardfrom the way that Oliver Stone
portrays that story and thatvillain in such a way that we
don't just sympathize with him,we want to be him.
That's why I've heard.
SPEAKER_01 (53:26):
Which is scary.
SPEAKER_03 (53:27):
It is really scary, honestly.
It really is.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
Which is why I think this film was so deserving of
all the accolades that itreceived.
And also why, as we mentioned atthe top of the show, that it's
such a cultural touchstone, evenfor people that haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_03 (53:44):
Like us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:46):
You know what's wild?
All of this, we talked aboutthis film for an hour.
An hour.
Uh huh.
James Spader's in this movie,and we didn't even like there's
all these other people in themovie that we didn't even
mention to.
Like that's how good it is.
They're just, oh, it's crazy.
Yeah, good stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (54:02):
Well, our guest today has been Joe Solsi High,
who is a co-host of StackingBenjamin's podcast, which is the
number one podcast in finance.
And y'all should go listen.
Thank you so much for coming on,Joe.
Emily, next week I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
home for the holidays with HollyHunter just in time for
Thanksgiving.
Awesome.
(54:22):
Can't wait.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:47):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
I remember during the 80s and 90s and early 2000s,
(00:04):
every year or two you'd have aWall Streeter that's a big deal
going away.
It's been a long time sincethat's happened.
Which I find disturbing becauseas I watch the film, I'm fairly
certain this stuff is stillgoing on.
Oh sure.
SPEAKER_03 (00:18):
Have you ever had something you love dismissed
because it's just up culture?
What others might deem stupidshit, you know matters.
You know it's worth talking andthinking about.
And so do we.
So come overthink with us as wedelve into our deep thoughts
about stupid shit.
SPEAKER_02 (00:38):
I'm Emily Guy Birkin, and you're listening to
Deep Thoughts About Stupid Shit,because pop culture is still
culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
On today's episode, I'mdelighted to welcome my dear
friend Joe Saul Sehai to discusshis deep thoughts about the
Oliver Stone movie Wall Streetwith my sister, Tracy Guy
(00:58):
Decker, and with you.
Let's dive in.
So I am so excited to have myfriend Joe here.
Joe is my co-author on my mostrecent book, Stacked, Your Super
Serious Guide to Modern MoneyManagement, where Joe was kind
enough to let my humor off theleash because I usually have to
(01:19):
uh they usually edit it out if Iever make a joke.
And he's like, no, no, no, leaninto it, Em, which was awesome.
And the entire process ofwriting was about my goal was to
make Joe laugh.
So if you're not familiar withJoe, he is the co-host of
Stacking Benjamins, which is oneof the most listened to podcasts
(01:40):
in the personal finance sphere.
Seriously, if you haven'tlistened to Stacking Benjamins,
you really ought to.
Kip Ligner's Personal Financehas called the show the best
personal finance podcast, andFast Company has described it as
striking a great balance betweenfun and functional.
And Joe lives in Texarkana withhis spouse Cheryl and Kat named
(02:00):
Cooper.
And he records shows in hismom's basement because that's
where podcasters do their work.
So, Joe, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
SPEAKER_01 (02:11):
I was disappointed that neither of you are in your
mom's basement.
SPEAKER_02 (02:14):
I mean, come on.
Yeah, unfortunately, that's justnot where we we record from.
We'll have to do better.
SPEAKER_03 (02:23):
Although when mom hears this episode, she's gonna
say, Yeah, why aren't you in mybasement?
SPEAKER_02 (02:29):
That is a good point.
SPEAKER_01 (02:30):
Yeah.
You should come on over.
And you know what's funny,Emily?
Thank you for the kind words.
And back at you.
I don't know if you know this,Tracy, but when I was writing my
half of the book, I had anaudience of one.
There was one person I waswriting for, and it was Emily.
SPEAKER_03 (02:47):
Well, as someone who's red stacked, I have to
say, whatever you did, itworked.
So thank you.
SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
Thanks.
Just entertaining ourselves,like we're going to do for the
next hour.
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
Let's do it.
SPEAKER_03 (03:01):
So I guess we should start with what is in each of
the guy girls' heads about thismovie Wall Street, which for me,
I don't know that if I I've everseen it.
So whatever's in my head is justsort of the osmosis that it's
about like rich and ruthlesspeople.
That's about all I've got.
Rich and ruthless, and likepower suits with big shoulders.
SPEAKER_01 (03:20):
Have have you, Emily?
You've read it or read it.
You've you watched it.
I have.
SPEAKER_02 (03:25):
Yeah, what's in your head?
I've actually never seen it.
This is one of those where likeyou haven't seen it either.
I know, I know.
So this is so I'm explaining itto both of you.
SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
I saw it again yesterday for maybe the 110th
time.
It's a number.
SPEAKER_02 (03:40):
You are a financial expert, so you know numbers.
That's right.
So it's another one.
SPEAKER_01 (03:45):
No, this is one of you don't even have to look it
up.
SPEAKER_02 (03:47):
This is one of those films where I have Gordon Gecko
in my head.
He's a a financial figure that Ireference even though I've never
actually seen the movie.
Even though you've never seenit, it's like greed in a word is
good, is in my head.
And like the idea of MichaelDouglas with the slick back hair
and the red suspenders likemeans something.
(04:10):
And I make reference to it in mywriting sometimes, even though
I've never actually seen themovie.
SPEAKER_03 (04:17):
So that's really interesting.
So it's just because it's acultural touchstone that I don't
know.
SPEAKER_01 (04:21):
It has become, I mean, any movie that's become
that ubiquitous in society, evenfor people that haven't seen it,
it really, and it's funny howwell this movie held up when I
watched it again yesterday forthis episode.
It held up really, really well.
And in some ways, because it'sso disappointing that we haven't
changed.
SPEAKER_03 (04:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, before we get there, tellus, Joe, what's at stake for
you?
Why is this the one that when weinvited you to come on the
podcast?
You were like, I'm gonna talkabout Wall Street.
Why is this the one?
What's it what's in it for you?
SPEAKER_01 (04:52):
Well, this is the this is you know the stupid shit
in my head because of the factthat I wanted to go back myself
and see if this film, whichreally for some weird reason, I
mean, at the end of this movie,and uh I don't think I need to
say spoiler alert, because amovie that's this old, if you
haven't seen it, I think it's onyou.
Yeah, it's on us.
But at the end of the film, uheverybody goes to jail.
(05:14):
Like they all go to jail.
And yet I watch this film andI'm like, I want to get into
finance.
I think I look good in orange.
I think it'll be great.
SPEAKER_03 (05:27):
So there's definitely something at stake
here.
SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
I was so fascinated, and it's funny watching it no
longer like I did the first timein my I was maybe 17 when I saw
this movie the first time, andit hit this raw, masculine piece
of me, right?
There's this masculinity moviethat Oliver Stone has in a lot
of his films, and even yesterdayat 57, like beating my chest.
(05:54):
And but I wondered if that wouldcontinue.
And I also wondered this idea ofgreed is good, which you
referenced earlier, Tracy, whichcomes from this very famous true
speech that a guy named IvanBosky made that they that Oliver
Stone decided to attribute toGordon Gecko instead, because
he's very much this insidertrading guy that Ivan Bosky was
in real life, if how far away weare from that now.
(06:17):
And also the cultural and thegender roles.
I also wanted to know becauseWall Street in the 1980s, such a
sexist culture.
I mean, part of the chestbeating was women is objects.
And I wanted to go back and seeif in this movie if they
depicted that, because at thetime it was just so much of what
(06:39):
you expected.
Like I didn't know if OliverStone was really calling it out
on purpose or not.
So that's what was at stake forme.
SPEAKER_03 (06:47):
Great, cool.
Well, I haven't seen it.
Catch me up.
What happens in this movie?
SPEAKER_01 (06:52):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (06:52):
What's the plot?
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
Well, the movie begins.
I love the way the movie begins.
Charlie Sheen, who plays thepart of Bud Fox, who's this
young guy just starting off onWall Street.
He is on a very crowded street.
Like the scene opens and itshows all the crowds of New
York.
And then he goes into one ofthese big, huge office buildings
(07:14):
that looks exactly like theoffice building next to it,
looks exactly like the one nextto that.
And he's herded onto anelevator.
In fact, you can see in thatfirst scene people shoving, and
they make a big deal abouteverybody shoving into the
elevator and people gettingupset that they're being shoved
into the elevator.
They've crammed as many peopleas possible.
Then they open up the doors intothis office that at the front
(07:35):
looks really professional.
But once you get past thesecretary's desk, which Charlie
Sheen takes a second, Bud Foxtakes a second to flirt with the
secretary who flirts back.
And then they go around thecorner and this room is packed
with traders, just tons and tonsof people.
And you really get this feelingof Oliver Stone looking at us
(07:55):
like we're ants climbing overeach other, right?
And this idea that in these bigbuildings they're full of tons
and tons of people who are justpushing and shoving to try to
get to the top.
And Bud Fox is another one ofthese ants.
And very early on, you see thathe wants to do what he calls Bag
the Elephant, which is he wantsto work with this guy, Gordon
(08:18):
Gecko.
So every day he places a call toGordon Gecko's office, and every
day Gordon Gecko's assistanttells him, Stop calling us.
We're not interested.
Please, no, no, no, no, no, no,no.
And so that's the beginning,this idea that we are all so it
starts off with this ladderclimbing trying to get ahead of
(08:39):
other people, feeling thatsadly, I feel is a lot of people
today.
It's a ton of people today.
SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
Okay.
Keep going.
What happens?
What happens?
SPEAKER_01 (08:52):
All right.
So so in the film, then hefinally, he on the second day,
he sees on his little computerthat it's Gordon Gecko's
birthday.
So he gets Gordon Gecko'sfavorite cigars, and he takes
the cigars to Gordon Gecko'soffice and he presents it with
the cigars.
Gordon Gecko actually finallysees him.
(09:13):
There's a very iconic, memorablescene where once Bud Fox finds
out that Gordon Gecko's going tosee him, the secretary comes to
get him and says, You have fiveminutes.
And Bud looks in the mirror,adjusts his tie, and he says,
Life comes down to a fewmoments.
This is one of them.
And it's an incredibly,incredibly memorable line that
(09:34):
you know what?
Life does come down to a fewmoments.
You can think about the fewlittle things.
He goes into Gordon Gecko'soffice, and Gordon, as Bud Fox
says later, when he gets back tothe office, his guy sitting next
to him in the office says, Well,did he see you?
And he goes, He didn't just seeme, he saw right through me.
Because it's very dismissive.
(09:54):
The bad news is that halfwaythrough that meeting, Bud Fox
realizes that to get GordonGecko's attention, he's going to
have to sell his soul.
And now we're starting to set upthis idea of good versus evil.
And the fact that he takes acouple good stock picks to
Gordon, and Gordon goes, Yeah,no, I don't think so.
(10:16):
First one he calls a dog.
Second one he says it's a dog,but it has different fleas.
Nope.
And then Charlie Sheen in anearlier scene has been with his
dad, which is funny.
His dad works in maintenance atthis airline called Blue Star
Airlines.
And his dad is played by noneother than his real dad, Martin
(10:37):
Sheen.
SPEAKER_03 (10:37):
Martin Sheen's in it as Charlie Sheen's dad.
That's cool.
SPEAKER_01 (10:40):
Yeah.
And so earlier he'd beenborrowing money from his dad in
just a very quick scene to showCharlie struggling to make ends
meet.
It also has shown Charlie on thephone, cold calling people, and
really just this nightmare of alife that he's living.
But his dad said something tohim that was insider trading
that this airline was going tohave a major event with the FAA
(11:01):
that was going to make anannouncement the next day and
nobody knew it.
And so you get this great viewOliver Stone shows Charlie
Sheen's face and the fact thathe knows he's lost Gordon
Gecko's attention.
He's got one more shot and hedoesn't want to miss it.
And he said, I think you shouldlook at Blue Star Airlines.
And Gordon Gecko goes, Oh,airlines, forget it.
(11:24):
Nothing.
He goes, Well, what you don'tknow is the FAA is about to rule
tomorrow and it's going to be inBlue Star Airlines' favor.
And Gordon Gecko says, How doyou know this?
And he goes, I have a, I justdo.
I just know it.
And you can see the look on hisface that he's disgusted with
himself.
But he's doing it because hewants to climb the ladder,
(11:45):
because he thinks Gordon Geckois this person that can take him
out of that cramped elevator andchange his life.
And so he walks out of theoffice.
Gordon says he'll consider it.
The guy next to him says, Yeah,did he see you?
He saw right through me.
Three minutes later in themovie, there's a phone call,
Buddy pickup line two.
(12:06):
Buddy at his desk with all theother people around picks up the
phone and says, Yeah, this isBud Fox.
And then it hands to MichaelDouglas, who is Gordon Gecko,
and he goes, Okay, Bud Fox,let's go buy some Blue Star
Airlines and put some money inthese other dog with flea stocks
you told me, but let's see howyou do.
And then he hangs up the phoneand Charlie Sheen stands up and
(12:27):
goes, Woo! I bagged theelephant.
Super great moment.
From that moment on in themovie, Bud Fox's life begins to
change.
After Blue Star Airlines goesthrough the roof the next day on
this FAA news, the other stocksthat he recommended that Gordon
put a little bit of money in,lost money.
Gordon has him come to playracquetball with him.
(12:50):
And it's Gordon Gecko's way oftelling Bud Fox that he's fired.
That, you know what, unlessyou've got another person you
know at the airline, unless yourdad works for some other
company, I think is what hesays.
I don't think we can do businessanymore.
And Charlie Sheen, Bud Fox,says, please give me another
chance, just one more chance.
And Gordon Gecko says, followme.
Let me show you my charts.
(13:11):
And it's all insider trading.
And he tells Bud Fox, if youwant to work with me, you got to
get me information.
This is not about working hard.
In fact, they pull up at a stopsign and there is a homeless
person next to a guy in a suit.
And Gordon Gecko says to BudFox, You think the difference
between these people is luck?
(13:33):
You think it's hard work?
It isn't either one of thosethings.
That person has informationabout the world that that person
doesn't have.
Now, patently not true.
100% not true.
Yeah.
Right, right.
Watching the movie evenyesterday, I buy into it.
SPEAKER_03 (13:50):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (13:50):
Because Gordon Gecko and Michael Douglas plays this
guy so well, is so charismaticand has made so much money and
is such a mentor figure to BudFox, which you completely buy
into this mentor-menteerelationship.
And the fact that he's now solda soul to Gordon Gecko, he's
listening to every word and is aguy watching it.
I'm watching every word.
(14:11):
So Gordon says, So that's what Ineed from you is information.
You let me know if you want apiece of that.
So he lets Bud Fox out of hislimousine.
Then there's a knock immediatelyon the window.
Gordon Gecko rolls down thewindow, and Charlie Sheen,
another iconic scene, says,Okay, Gordon, I'm in.
Which means I am now going to bea criminal for you.
(14:34):
And then his life throughout themovie gets better.
It just gets better and betterand better and better and
better.
Which brings up, I think,another topic, which is how much
is enough?
There's this whole subtext ofenough.
Gordon Gecko makes fun ofwealthy people because they're
not wealthy enough.
(14:54):
He actually talks in one sceneabout how I'm not talking about
writing first class rich.
That's everybody.
That's nothing.
I'm talking about command theroom rich.
I'm talking about hundreds ofmillions of dollars rich.
That's who you want to be, BudFox.
And I can make you that guy.
And again, the most masculinelizard brain piece of me, even
(15:20):
at 57, a guy that no longerbelieves any of this stuff, just
watched the movie yesterday.
Let's go own everything.
I want to own it all.
SPEAKER_03 (15:32):
And it's funny.
Joe just beat his chest forthose of you who can't see him.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
I found myself horrified by my reaction.
Yeah.
Which I think is why there wereso many.
The movie won an Academy Award.
It was up for a ton of AcademyAwards.
And I think it was OliverStone's ability to bring this
out in us.
And part of what I foundfascinating about the movie was
to find my reaction to thescenes, these visceral reactions
(15:58):
I was having, which wasphenomenal.
It was outstanding.
Partway through the film, asthey're going on this lovely
insider trading jaunt together,Gordon and Bud holding hands,
becoming best friends.
SPEAKER_02 (16:14):
Tripping through the daisies of insider trading.
Right.
unknown (16:18):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
And Daryl Hanna is dating another guy.
Gordon Gecko sees the fact thatBud really likes Daryl Hannah's
character and sets them up,makes sure that Daryl Hanna is
able to begin dating Bud Foxinstead.
And her name is Darien in thepiece.
(16:55):
You find out later on in thefilm that Darion, who's an
interior designer, at this pointshe's head over heels for Bud
Fox.
In fact, she tells Gordon Gecko,I think I'm really falling for
Bud.
And Gordon says, You don't wantto do that yet.
He hasn't been around the basesyet, and you've been around them
several times.
You know what this life is like,and he doesn't know what this
(17:17):
life is like yet.
So I'd pump the brakes.
But he also says that to herwhile he's holding her hand.
And he just said to her, afterthis art exhibition they go to
together, and they bid on somepieces, millions of dollars on
pieces for Gordon, and she'sadvising him.
He said, Why don't we go, whydon't we go to a hotel and do
what we used to do?
(17:38):
And she's like, Yeah, those daysare over.
And he said, You haven't toldBud about us, have you?
And Darien says, No, and I don'twant him to ever find out about
us.
You get this feeling throughoutthe film that Gordon Gecko has
(17:59):
leased a woman to Bud Fox.
And the woman is okay with it,which is creepy, because of the
fact that Gordon Gecko has givenher so much money and so much
stuff.
And Bud initially kind of knowsit, but he doesn't want it that
(18:19):
to be the case.
He wants them to be falling inlove.
Until a scene later on with hisdad, he tries to get Gordon
Gecko to help him save Blue StarAirlines later.
So he brings his dad to thismeeting.
He brings the head of thesedifferent unions at Blue Star
Airlines into this meeting sothat Gordon can save the
airline.
And Gordon comes up with thisgreat plan that everybody likes
(18:40):
except Martin Sheen.
And Martin Sheen immediately hasthis line where he said
something like, I don't go tobed with a whore at night and I
don't wake up with one the nextday.
And it's funny because he's notreferring to Darien.
He's referring to Gordon Gecko,who he sees every day, who he
thinks is a whore.
But during that time, also BudFox goes, wait a minute.
(19:04):
You see the light also come on,going, I'm also in this
relationship where I don't thinkthis woman is as attached to me
as she is attached to the factthat I'm gonna make a ton of
money.
I'm a hetchman to Gordon's andI'm close to Gordon.
It's a way for her to stay closeto Gordon.
And she she loves this idea ofwho he is, which is incredibly
(19:24):
creepy.
It is, it's incredibly creepy.
In fact, it's funny.
I was a little creeped out byit.
I remember when I was 18.
But the fact that, come on, it'sDaryl Hannah.
I mean, I heard Emily last timetalk about Keanu Reeves.
I mean, come on.
In your last episode, doingthat, I can do it today about
Daryl Hannah, right?
I mean, 17-year-old Joe waslike, oh, Bud Fox, Daryl Hannah.
(19:50):
Wow.
Says this gloss over part, butit's it was the idea that we're
all for sale.
And Bud Fox during the movie,realizing three quarters of the
way through the movie, that notonly is he for sale, Daryl
Hannah's been for sale.
All these people who are linedup to serve Gordon Gecko, who
(20:12):
doesn't want to save Blue StarAirlines, he tells Bud Fox he's
gonna save Blue Star Airlines.
Bud let out the fact thatthere's an overfunded pension
and he can get his hand on$57million very easily.
Gordon's just going after thepension, and Bud Fox finds out
very accidentally that GordonGecko is going to break up the
airline.
(20:33):
He's just gonna destroy it.
And then at the end of themovie, it's this quest.
The movie then is a quest at theend for Charlie Sheen, for Bud
Fox, to try to redeem himselfand to try to go back to this
what's right and wrong, to kindof right all the wrongs in his
life and save the airline andsave his dad's company and save
(20:56):
these jobs.
In fact, that's anotherundercurrent of this movie.
Lives and jobs, often throughoutthe movie, in lots of ways,
people that are making moneyjust to sustain themselves, and
these people who are destroyingit with no thought whatsoever
about the lives that are beingdestroyed.
In fact, early in the game, BudFox is in on it.
Gordon Gecko is breaking up acompany or is going after
(21:18):
another trader who's trying tosave a company.
Gordon Gecko knows he's tryingto save a company.
So Gordon uses it as a way tomake a ton of money.
He breaks up the fact that thisinherently good thing that
stocks and money can provide fortons of people, it can provide
for an entire community.
Gordon goes in and breaks it upbecause it's an easy way for him
(21:43):
to make just more money in hispocket, which becomes another
iconic line in the movie.
How many yachts can you waterskibehind?
Bud Fox, near the end of themovie, says to Gordon Gecko, How
many yachts can you waterskibehind?
What's enough?
What is enough?
So I think there's this idea ofbeware what you ask for, right?
He wants to stop ladder climbingand Gordon Gecko's his way out
(22:06):
of it.
It turns out Gordon Gecko's nothis way out of it, he's climbing
a different ladder now.
Right.
And he's climbing a much moremalicious ladder.
And I thought about this as Ifinished the movie, I'm like,
was Bud Fox better off havinggone through this journey than
he was when he's crowded in theelevator at the beginning?
SPEAKER_03 (22:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (22:28):
And the sad news is I think he was.
I think he actually was betteroff that he did this insider
training stuff.
And maybe, and Martin Sheen saysthis to him during one of the
last scenes, maybe it's actuallygood that he's going to jail.
Maybe there's some good in it.
Maybe it is the universe helpinghim course correct, even though
(22:52):
when he ends up getting GordonGecko good and gets Gordon Gecko
caught by the he helps the fedsget Gordon Gecko.
So he's already had someredemption, but going to jail
and serving time might have beena good thing.
I agree with Martin Sheen.
One more thing that I founddisturbing about this movie now,
and this is not me 57 versus me17.
(23:16):
I think the last time thathappened that somebody got taken
out on Wall Street in handcuffsthat made big news was during
the financial crisis.
And there was only one person,and it was a person who felt if
you go look this up, I don'tremember the guy's name.
I should have done it fortoday's prep work, but I do know
(23:37):
there was one guy, and it wasbecause he felt guilty that he
had bilked so many people whenall the banks, you know, all of
this underhanded stuff was goingon.
SPEAKER_02 (23:48):
So like the Lehman brothers and all of that stuff
that went down.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (23:51):
Yeah.
All the bankers trying to savethemselves, right?
Only one person went to jailduring that.
Was the one with the conscience.
Yeah.
And I don't remember, Emily,anybody since then.
Like I don't remember the Iremember during the 80s and 90s
and early 2000s, every year ortwo you'd have a Wall Streeter
that's a big deal going away.
(24:13):
It's been a long time sincethat's happened.
Which I find disturbing becauseas I watch the film, I'm fairly
certain this stuff is stillgoing on.
Oh, sure.
I'm sure.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Yeah.
Well, that we had the too big tofail thing, which I remember
being so infuriating.
Gosh, now that's been like morethan 15 years ago.
SPEAKER_03 (24:33):
Yeah.
With the mortgages and stuff.
SPEAKER_04 (24:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (24:36):
I'm going to bring it back to the movie because
something that as you're tellingthe story of the actual plot of
the film, Emily and I have beentalking offline a lot about the
hero's journey and sort of theheroine's journey or the
virgin's promise.
And I'm realizing, like asyou're talking about this, that
there's a degree to which Budgoes through the hero's journey,
right?
The ordinary world in thispacked elevator and then this
(24:59):
extraordinary world with GordonGecko.
And then he has to return to theordinary world.
That's how the hero's journeyworks, but he returns changed.
And so I think there's somethingreally interesting in your
question like, is he better off?
If we look at it in thatnarrative frame, he's better off
because he grew.
And that's the point of thehero's journey.
(25:19):
That's what makes Bud theprotagonist.
He grows and changes as a resultof the action of the story.
So I think that's a reallyinteresting like layer to lay on
top of this.
Cause you're looking at theethics, right?
The morality.
Like I hear you regrettingalmost that this guy's better
off for having been a criminaland like hurting people.
(25:41):
And yet, narratively, we needhim to grow and change in some
way as a result of the action.
Otherwise, why are we watchingthis?
Right?
Like, there's no story there ifthere's no growth, or there's
not a story that Westerners findinteresting if there's no
growth.
So I think there's somethinglike really interesting about
(26:02):
that.
I also am very interested withthat layer about the dad, Martin
and Sheen's role.
Because like, Emily, help me outhere.
Like the hero's journey fromJoseph Campbell, there we move
from the ordinary to theextraordinary, and there's
mentors.
That's one of the components ofthe hero's journey.
So obviously Gordon is one ofthem.
(26:23):
But dad is one too.
And he's actually the moralmentor.
And when he is in jeopardy,that's when Bud actually wakes
up from the moral ambiguity ofthis extraordinary world that
Gordon has taken into.
SPEAKER_02 (26:40):
Absolutely.
Well, I what's interesting, I'mgonna layer on top of that.
So one of the things that I findfascinating in the financial
world is talking about moneyscripts, which both of you have
heard me talk ad infinitum aboutthis.
SPEAKER_03 (26:55):
Yeah, but our listeners haven't.
Catch us up.
SPEAKER_02 (26:57):
So that's Dr.
Bradley Klantz and his researchpartner Sonia Britt.
Dr.
Sonia Britt came up with this.
These are unconscious beliefsthat we have about money that we
created in childhood and thennever really challenged because
we don't talk about money.
It's a taboo subject in ourculture.
So the example I give of likeother kind of thing that we come
(27:19):
up with in childhood becausechildren are great observers but
not great interpreters, is ourmom, when she was a very little
girl, thought that doctors wentto jail if they got sick.
And of course, she was disabusedof that notion because we talk
about doctors.
But if talking about doctorswere taboo, she might still hold
on to that belief.
Whereas money, because it'staboo, we don't talk about the
(27:41):
beliefs that we come up withabout money.
And so these money scripts arelike reinforced over our
lifetimes.
And so we talked a little bitabout money scripts in our
Avalon episode, but Klantz andBritt came up with four basic
types of money scripts.
There's money avoidance, moneyworship, money status, and money
vigilance.
(28:01):
So, anyway, within those moneyscripts, they are like the way
that we interpret how moneyworks and we take it as like a
given.
This is just how money is.
And it's the reason why theknockdown, drag up fight you
have with your significantother, your partner, is most
likely to be about money becauseyou're going like, well, this is
(28:22):
just how money is.
And they're going, like, you'remaking me crazy because that's
not how money is, it's how thisis, and you're coming at it from
different directions.
So what this is telling me isthat Bud Fox would have been
incapable of getting howethically wrong what Gordon
Gecko was doing without actuallyexperiencing it.
(28:46):
Because until he had gonethrough the experience of seeing
what this actually cost someonehe cared about, it had to be
someone.
It had to be someone he caredabout.
Because he did see he did seethe cost.
But it had to be someone hecared about because for him,
presumably he had either moneystatus or money worship or both.
(29:10):
Because those are both the thoseare commonly definitely both.
People commonly have themtogether.
And so for that, what if youhave those those two money
scripts?
The idea more money is better,and I need to have that money to
show people that my life isgood, that I am good, and damn
the consequences, it's worth itto sell my soul to get there.
(29:34):
And until I actually see thedevastation that this causes,
and I really recognize thatokay, the people who are losing
their jobs and losing theirpensions, it's fine, they'll be
okay.
That's a lie I'm telling myself.
And so putting that with JosephCampbell's hero's journey is
(29:56):
necessary for someone with thosemoney scripts.
To be able to get to that pointwhere they like, oh my gosh, I
have done a terrible thing.
And it sounds like Bud Fox wouldnot have ever gotten there.
He would have continued toidolize Gordon.
SPEAKER_01 (30:13):
Emily, they articulate exactly what you're
saying several times during themovie.
Bud Fox says it, Darien says itwhen he is, he's getting ready
to break up with her and herealizes this relationship is
toxic.
It's not at all what I want.
And she repeats something thatBud Fox had said earlier and now
was rejecting, which was ifGordon Gecko didn't break these
(30:35):
companies up, somebody elsewould have.
So Gordon's not bad.
This was inevitable.
This was, and it is, Emily, 100%this lie that you tell yourself
that no, it it's okay.
This isn't that bad.
These people would have been outof work anyway.
Because look at this company,Gordon Gecko said himself, this
company was breakable.
I think he said.
He said, Why are you breakingBlue Star Airlines?
(30:57):
Gordon says, because it'sbreakable, because I can.
And if I don't do it, somebodyelse is going to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (31:02):
Yeah, that reminds me of it's not a great film, but
my kids recently, for our weeklymovie night, they had us watch
the Lorax, the recent one.
And it's a musical, and there'sa song that's actually quite
good where I can't remember the,but the one who creates the
thneeds, that guy, sings, Howbad can I be when he's
destroying all the truffulatrees?
(31:24):
And it's like that, whereinstead of asking, like, is this
the right thing to do?
Am I doing something wrong?
You ask, How bad can I be?
Is it really so bad?
And that is like when you'reputting it that way, you're
asking the wrong question.
SPEAKER_01 (31:39):
On a scale of one to 10, it's only an eighth of
three.
Yeah, exactly.
unknown (31:43):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (31:44):
I I think there's something really interesting in
this movie itself and in yourresponse to it, Joe, even now at
57, when you've gotten past allthe things, like the fact that
like watching it, and you namedthat this is Oliver Stone's gift
to make you not just sympathizewith these guys, but like really
like want to be them.
(32:05):
I want to unpack this a littlebit because it's it seems clear
to me that we've got good andevil, we've got white collar and
blue collar.
And I'm putting those in thesame column, right?
Or sorry, the opposite column.
The white collar or the evil,the blue collar or the good,
right?
We've got Martin Sheen, he's thegood mentor.
We've got Michael Douglas, he'sthe bad mentor, white collar,
blue collar.
And there's money scripts bakedinto that that Oliver Stone
(32:27):
clearly has about like wheremerit and honor and morality lie
vis-a-vis money.
And it's not with Gordon Geckoand the extraordinary word that
Bud Fox eventually rejects.
And yet, here you are, and youknow a lot about money and how
money works and how wealthworks.
(32:49):
And here you are, like beatingyour chest as you're watching
this movie.
Like, what is he tapping into?
I mean, you named masculinity.
Can we dig into that a littlebit?
Like, this is a masculinity.
It's not like I'm the biggestand the strongest and I can beat
you up, but it's in thatdirection with money.
SPEAKER_01 (33:08):
I think you feel viscerally the dopamine hit of
having, of acquiring.
When he moves from this, theymake a big deal that he's in
this little Upper East Sideapartment, and then he moves
into one of the swankiest partsof town, and he is in this
beautiful high-rise.
Of course, Darien, because she'san interior designer.
(33:30):
She outfits it with all this artthat he thinks is absolutely
horrible, but still is this chicplace.
I looked at the art, I look atthis place.
I don't know that I'd want tolive there, but he's on the
phone talking about futures inthe Asian markets while he's
mixing a drink and the lightsare low, and you can see
(33:52):
Manhattan down below while he'son the phone and this beautiful
bar.
And and I immediately thought, Iwant that.
SPEAKER_04 (34:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:02):
Like, wow, can I have?
Please just give me this veryhuman thing.
It frustrates me every time I gointo a mall and you see how
many, which isn't that often.
And it's funny that the lessoften I go into the mall, the
more it strikes me.
Why are so many peopleentertained by walking around
this place where every singlething in here, at some point, no
(34:23):
matter how good we are to it, nomatter how much we take care of
it, it's all going to end up ina landfill at some point.
And when you think of a mall asa future landfill, it grosses
you out.
It's horrible.
And yet, inside of me, last timeI was at a mall, I had the same
feeling.
I'm like, oh, maybe I want that.
Ooh, I want that.
I want that.
I want that.
And so I think there's thatpiece of all of us that says, as
(34:47):
I'm watching this movie, alsothis aspirational piece, I think
that's the Hero Horatio Algerman pulling himself up by the
bootstraps, right?
And finding a way to do betterthan his dad did, right?
His dad clearly blue collargonna be okay, but he tells his
dad, he's like, I don't want tolive in Queens.
(35:08):
Who wants to live in Queens?
Yeah.
And then by the end of themovie, he's like, I would love
to live in Queens.
I would absolutely love to havethis family that my dad has.
I would love to have the peoplearound me that care about me
that my dad has.
And this big, huge house with aspouse.
By the way, Gordon Gecko'sspouse, this is an interesting
(35:29):
side note also about genderroles.
Sean Young plays this part, andshe was kind of a big deal back
in the 80s, and she's athrowaway actress in this
playing Gordon Gecko spouse.
Because in Gordon Gecko's world,again, women for sale, she is
just a accessory in his game,and Oliver Stone is doing that
(35:53):
with her as an actor.
He's taking her and giving herthis throwaway, this wonderful
actor, and is just dumping herinto these scenes where she's
just the person going to getdrinks for everybody,
introducing people at the partybecause of the role that she
plays.
So I don't know, this idea thatI have to own it, the disgusting
idea of I have to own otherpeople is um the I am reminded
(36:19):
of we just we recently recorded,it hasn't been released yet when
we're recording this.
SPEAKER_03 (36:23):
It will be by the time this goes live.
We recently recorded an episodeabout the jerk where Steve
Martin's character wants to besomebody.
And like there's a place whereyou can arrive when you get the
drink with the umbrella in itwhen you are somebody.
And I'm that's I'm hearingechoes of that, but not funny in
what you're talking about rightnow, right?
You could be talking aboutfutures on the Asian market on
(36:44):
the phone with the low lightsand the drink you just made
yourself with Manhattan in thebackground and the beautiful
girlfriend or wife, like thenyou'll be somebody.
And it's all about sort of yeah,the accessories rather than what
he realizes at the end about therelationships and the real
meaning and the real life.
There's a juxtaposition there,but Oliver Stone showing us that
(37:07):
like taps into the thing we haveall imbibed that, like to be
somebody, you gotta have thesethings, and you gotta be a dude
with a good-looking girl on yourarm.
SPEAKER_01 (37:18):
Right.
Just one more point on that nearthe end of the movie, and I
didn't remember this from thebajillion times I'd seen this
film before.
Bud Fox is looking out thewindow from this gorgeous
apartment over Manhattan, andhe's just staring off into this
place that you think that wewould all want.
And he says out loud, Who am I?
(37:43):
Which is just a huge, huge linenow for me.
Because he's unrecognizable evento himself, because he's gotten
all these things that he thoughtthat he wanted.
And in the course of gettingeverything he wanted, he's taken
the piece that is most core tohis being and he's lost it.
It's gone.
It's 100% gone.
SPEAKER_02 (38:03):
Yeah.
That actually piggybacks reallywell into what I was going to
get into, which is so somethingI end up talking about a lot to
people is in 15 years of writingabout money, I have become
radicalized in ways that I wouldnever have expected.
One of them being is, and I saythis a lot, is that money
doesn't actually exist.
It's this shared delusion.
(38:24):
We have all collectively decidedthat these little green pieces
of paper and these small discsof metal are worth money or
worth something.
SPEAKER_03 (38:33):
And bits and bites.
And what bits and bites.
SPEAKER_02 (38:40):
Which is so weird if you think about it.
And then because it doesn'texist, so like we could all of
us survive off the grid, or ifthe meter comes without money.
We can't survive without food,without clothes, without
shelter, without water, but wecan survive without money.
And so because of that, we putour own interpretation on money,
(39:00):
our own meaning on money, ourown neuroses, our own like
psychological definition,morality, ethics, all of that.
And so when it comes to GordonGecko and Bud Fox, and so
they're putting Gordon isputting meaning on money where
he's like making fun of wealthypeople for not being wealthy
enough, because for him, it's ascore.
(39:22):
Like he's saying you are notplaying the game well enough.
You don't have a high enoughscore in that game because
that's what it means to him whenit's like it doesn't have
anything to do with actuallybeing able to live a good life
or get the resources he needs orbe generous to others or any of
(39:46):
the other things that money canbe used for.
Or even like luxury and waterskiing behind.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you can only waterskibehind one at a time.
So, and then that fits into budasking himself, who am I?
Because like he thought hewanted money and all the things
that it can buy him.
(40:07):
But once he has that, herealizes he doesn't know who he
is anymore because he's lost thething that made him who he is.
And that's because money doesn'tactually exist.
He's chasing after a phantom,he's chasing after this shared
delusion by giving up the thingsthat are real, like his own
ethical code, his father, hisrelationships.
(40:27):
His father.
SPEAKER_04 (40:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:28):
And those are real things.
And he's given them up for ashared delusion for someone who
is completely amoral and doesn'tcare about him.
Doesn't care about him at alland will completely betray him
at the first opportunity if hecan get a higher score in the
money game.
There's money.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:46):
And tried to.
I mean, he tried to break up,use his connection with Bud Fox
to destroy the company.
Yeah, destroy the airline andhis dad is hired at him.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04 (40:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:57):
I mean, his own dad's gonna lose his job, and
Gordon Gecko doesn't care if BudFox's dad loses his job.
Right.
It's like I don't care.
I think he even says at onepoint to Bud, he said, Well,
your dad's close enough toretirement.
Who cares?
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:09):
Yeah, but wasn't he stealing his pension too?
SPEAKER_01 (41:11):
Right, right.
Good point.
Yeah.
And that's what struck me thistime.
And this is looking back on myown personal money journey.
I think about some of the thingsin life that I've personally
asked for, that I've wanted outof life.
And I think this is a lessonthis movie really goes into
(41:34):
that.
I don't know if it went over myhead.
I saw it before, but I reallyfelt it this time, which is this
idea of beware what you ask for.
Because Bud Fox tied GordonGecko to the answer to all of
his problems, he ended up with awhole different set of problems.
Stephen Covey in Seven Habits ofHighly Affected People says,
(41:55):
when you pick up a stick, youpick up the other side.
I think you have to ask yourselfwhat the other side really is.
SPEAKER_03 (42:02):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
Because once he saw the other side, once he got on
the other side, and how often dowe do that in life?
And how often, Emily, to yourpoint, do we do that with money?
We think in our money scriptthat the other side is going to
be so much better.
It's going to be so, oh, if Ijust do this thing, if I have
this thing, if I live in thegreat apartment, if I have the
phenomenal girlfriend, if I havethe whatever, my life is going
(42:22):
to be great.
He gets all this stuff and hislife sucks.
It's just it's no good.
And then of course, then itreally sucks when the feds show
up.
SPEAKER_03 (42:30):
Right.
That's uh right.
This question of like oh, that'ssomething that this question of
like enough.
SPEAKER_02 (42:38):
Okay, you go, then me.
SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
This question of enoughness that Bud asks Gordon,
I think is really interestingwhen we sort of talk about like
wanting to be somebody and whatwe want.
Because money is a delusion,there will be never be enough if
that is in fact what we'reseeking, because there's always
more.
SPEAKER_04 (43:00):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (43:01):
So I think that's and that's here in this film,
clearly, explicitly, heunderlined the thesis.
Like Stone underlined thethesis.
We didn't need to guess.
And yet, a lot of people wentinto trading because of this
movie.
So I think there's like aninteresting circle there.
You go, Emily.
SPEAKER_02 (43:21):
So that brings up something I tell my kids all the
time, which is life is not abuffet.
So if there's something that youwant, you think that you're just
going to, well, for one thing,you'll if you are jealous of
something someone has, you'reimagining that you just take
that thing and you put it onyour plate, and that's not how
it works.
No, it's more like, do youreally want their life?
(43:44):
Because that's what it would belike.
But also, if you imagine there'ssomething that you want, you
have to imagine the entirething.
It's not a buffet where you justput it on your plate.
That it comes with a bunch ofother stuff that you may not
even know about.
And so it's not a matter oflike, oh yeah, you're just gonna
(44:05):
put the potato salad on yourplate.
It comes with like you gottapeel the potatoes and you gotta
do a lot more than just imagineyou get the finished product and
the feds are gonna be after you,or whatever it is, because life
is not a buffet.
And so whatever it is that youthink is missing from your life,
(44:25):
you have to know that there is alot more to it than whatever it
is that's missing, whatever itis that you imagine is missing.
And that is something like Ifeel like often people miss the
point of movies in the same waythat people saw Fight Club and
they didn't they started FightClubs.
(44:46):
And I was just like, did wewatch the same movie?
SPEAKER_03 (44:54):
Or it's also like though, it's also like what you
talk about, Emily, what you talkabout horror films, where we end
up Freddie Krueger iseverywhere, and we all know his
name and his likeness and hisquippy quips, but we don't know
Nancy Thompson's name, eventhough she is actually the hero.
She's the one that beats him andhe's the bad guy.
(45:15):
I feel like this is one of thosewhere Gordon Gecko becomes sort
of the guy whose name is in ourheads and whose phrases are in
our heads, even though he is infact a villain in this movie.
SPEAKER_01 (45:28):
Yeah, there is a piece of him all the way
through, though.
And this is the miracle, Ithink, of Oliver Stone.
His ability to make you want tobe the villain, to make you want
to be that guy, to take therisks that he's taken, to climb
the mountains that he's taken,to be the person who's the
disruptor instead of the personon the other end who's being
disrupted, right?
I think there's a piece in allof us that fears that whatever
(45:50):
life we're living is going tohave someone come in from the
outside and disrupt it.
Well, I want to Gordon Gecko,he's the prime mover.
I want to be the prime mover.
I don't want you to be the primemover.
I found that fascinating.
SPEAKER_03 (46:01):
Yeah, that is fascinating.
I mean, even in the as I justsaid, like this movie that is
really a meditation on the moralmess of trading that convinced a
whole generation of people to gointo it.
SPEAKER_01 (46:16):
Well, heck, even just the moral mess of money,
even today.
I mean, even and I think thatthat moral mess because we
because it's so human.
The movie is so human in itsapproach, that's why it holds
up.
You you mentioned at thebeginning, Tracy, about stakes.
There's a piece of this filmthat I did not mention because
there's so many sub, like anygood textured film, there's all
(46:38):
these little subplots going on.
But one subplot in the film,there's a wonderful actor who
passed away a few years agonamed Hal Holbrook, who's in
this movie.
And Hal Holbrook plays the guywho is a pretty good trader, not
a phenomenal trader, but he'scrafted this nice life for
himself.
Bud Fox sees him at thebeginning of the film, like just
(47:02):
just stuck in the middle ground,not really going far enough, but
not really going all the way.
He believes Hal Holbrook couldbe this bigger thing.
And Hal Holbrook consistently inthe movie puts his arm around
Bud Fox.
And if you know who Hal Holbrookis, this totally's gonna sound
like him.
There's no shortcuts, Bud.
You can't get there the quickway.
(47:24):
Whatever's happening now, it'snot gonna continue, Bud.
I don't know what's going onhere because Bud Fox all of a
sudden's making tons of money.
Hal Holbrook puts his arm on andgoes, I don't know what's going
on here, but I gotta tell youit's not gonna last.
I gotta tell you, this isn't it.
And at the end of the film, whenBud Fox walks into his office
and everybody's just staring athim because they know what Bud
(47:44):
doesn't know, that the feds arein his office.
He says, Did somebody die?
And his buddy that he used tosit next to on the trading floor
before he had his own officesaid, Yeah, somebody died and
just looks at him.
And then Hal Holbrook puts hisarm around him and said, Bud,
when man stares into the abyss,that's when he finds out who he
(48:04):
really is.
And Bud Fox looks at him becausehe still has no idea what the
hell's going on and is like,good talk, Al.
Like, thank you, thank you somuch.
Okay, weirdo, whatever.
And then he gets it 10 minuteslater.
But they're contrasting this oldguy on one hand with a guy who
really I think Hal Holbrook isenough in the movie.
He has enough.
(48:25):
He does take this straightnarrow path with another old guy
who at the beginning of the filmis struggling and two-thirds of
the way through the film isgetting fired because he's not a
productive trader.
And you see this guy that spenthis whole life doing something
and he hasn't made enough money.
(48:45):
He even tells the sales managerwho's firing him, he goes, Well,
after the divorces, I justcan't.
And you can see this guy neverbuilt anything, he never built
for himself a life.
So you can see the stakes inthis old guy who isn't making it
forcing Bud to think I can't bethe guy who's not making it.
(49:06):
And also then when he gets ataste of Gordon Gecko, I don't
want to be Hel Hobrook becauseGordon Gecko is living this
life.
Uh Hel Hobrook has to come inand still pedal stocks every
day.
I don't want to be that guy.
I want to be this supersuperman.
And I found this juxtapositionto be really uh important
because I think sometimes, likeBud, we get these signals in our
(49:30):
life that we think we got to dosomething.
And maybe we do need to move,but we take the wrong action
because of the fact that we seesomebody failing in front of us.
There were 50 things that BudFox could have done with the
information of this guy'sfailing and I don't want to be
this guy.
I don't want to be 70 years oldand being fired because you
can't keep up.
SPEAKER_03 (49:50):
Wow.
Yeah.
I'm actually gonna look back andtry and wrap us up.
I'm gonna reflect back to youwhat I heard, Joe.
So you guys should nuance me,correct me, make sure if I
forgot anything.
I think the number one thing Iheard from the lesson from this
movie was really about bewarewhat you ask for, be careful
(50:11):
what you wish for, because youjust might get it.
And sort of we said it in acouple different ways.
Life is not a buffet, there'sthe other end of the stick.
We used a couple of differentmetaphors for the fact that like
it's a whole package.
And so if you get Gordon Gecko'slife, you get the criminal uh
charges as well.
So that was sort of the biggestthing.
But we also spent some timetalking about the kind of very
(50:32):
human sense, which maybe isinfluenced by my scripts and
also by our culture, and alsojust sort of like the dopamine
hit of possessing, of beingsomebody.
I'm putting quotes around that,of having.
And I equated that with sort ofbeing the biggest and the
strongest, but it's also justsort of about like, yeah, being
the guy who is the disruptor, isthe way that you just named it.
(50:54):
Like the person who is in somesort of control, or it seems as
though they are, and so we chasewhat they have.
That picture is very specific.
Picture, and it's a dude, andhe's white, and he's got lots of
stuff, and he's got a prettygirl.
And in fact, girls in thisworld, women, are just
(51:15):
accessories.
They're the same as the drinkand the apartment and the yacht.
They're not actually humanbeings, they're just
accessories.
You also brought to us, we sortof spent some time teasing out
the morality of money and thehierarchy of money, white collar
versus blue collar, like sort ofworthy money that we actually
(51:38):
earn by blue-collar workers orby Hal Holbrook, who doesn't
take shortcuts versus like notworthy money, evil money that we
get by hurting people throughbreaking stuff up because we
can.
The lies we tell ourselves inorder to continue to do that.
We brought in the narrativestructure that Oliver Stone
used, that this is maybe ahero's journey from the ordinary
(52:01):
world to the extraordinary,growth and change back to the
ordinary and to jail.
Emily brought in the fact thatthis also was dependent upon
sort of money scripts.
That was the growth and changethat Bud needed to make.
He needed to be able to confronthis own money scripts, which we
don't ever talk about.
And there was also in the sortof blue-collar worthy money, no
(52:23):
shortcuts, worthy money, andwhite-collar shortcuts, not
worthy money.
There's also sort of ameditation about real lives and
real jobs and real people versusmoney that's just about more,
and when is it enough?
And how many yachts can youwaterski behind?
What did I forget?
SPEAKER_01 (52:43):
No, I don't think I don't think you forgot anything.
SPEAKER_03 (52:45):
I think you got it.
I'm sure I forgot something.
No, no, you know what I didforget is the fact that Stone, I
think you pointed this out, Joe,that part of Stone's Oliver
Stone's sort of genius is likemaking us not just sympathize
with the villain, but actuallysort of want to be him.
And like that sort of momentthat even now, even though you
are so much more evolved thanyou were when you were 17,
(53:08):
you're still watching this movieand beating your chest, like,
yeah, I want that too.
I want that too.
And there's a certain degree ofjust really psychological
genius, I think, is what I heardfrom the way that Oliver Stone
portrays that story and thatvillain in such a way that we
don't just sympathize with him,we want to be him.
That's why I've heard.
SPEAKER_01 (53:26):
Which is scary.
SPEAKER_03 (53:27):
It is really scary, honestly.
It really is.
It really is.
SPEAKER_01 (53:30):
Which is why I think this film was so deserving of
all the accolades that itreceived.
And also why, as we mentioned atthe top of the show, that it's
such a cultural touchstone, evenfor people that haven't seen it.
SPEAKER_03 (53:44):
Like us.
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:46):
You know what's wild?
All of this, we talked aboutthis film for an hour.
An hour.
Uh huh.
James Spader's in this movie,and we didn't even like there's
all these other people in themovie that we didn't even
mention to.
Like that's how good it is.
They're just, oh, it's crazy.
Yeah, good stuff.
SPEAKER_03 (54:02):
Well, our guest today has been Joe Solsi High,
who is a co-host of StackingBenjamin's podcast, which is the
number one podcast in finance.
And y'all should go listen.
Thank you so much for coming on,Joe.
Emily, next week I am going tobring you my deep thoughts about
home for the holidays with HollyHunter just in time for
Thanksgiving.
Awesome.
(54:22):
Can't wait.
This show is a labor of love,but that doesn't make it free to
produce.
If you enjoy it even half asmuch as we do, please consider
helping to keep us overthinking.
You can support us at ourPatreon.
There's a link in the shownotes.
Or leave a positive review soothers can find us.
And of course, share the showwith your people.
(54:47):
Thanks for listening.
Our theme music is ProfessorUmlaut by Kevin McLeod from
Incompotech.com.
Find full music credits in theshow notes.
Thank you to Resonate Recordingsfor editing today's episode.
Until next time, remember popculture is still culture.
And shouldn't you know what's inyour head?
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