January 21, 2025 • 45 mins
Jen shares her inspirational journey as a new mother navigating the world of single motherhood by choice, touching on themes of societal expectations, financial considerations, and emotional resilience. Her reflections highlight the importance of personal choice in defining one’s family narrative and the lessons learned from both heartache and joy.
• Jen's journey begins with a pivotal doctor's appointment that prompts her to reconsider motherhood
• Financial readiness plays a crucial role in the process of assisted reproduction
• Emotional challenges linked to fertility treatments and the importance of processing grief
• Jen’s values and the input of family in her decision-making reflected in choosing a donor
• Hope for the future includes openness to relationships and possibilities of more children
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ann (00:08):
This is Define the Narrative podcast.
I have been trying to get mynext guest to sit for an
(00:45):
interview for a while actually,and I don't know what happened
this time, but I'm so gratefulthat Jen decided to sit for the
interview this time.
Jen is a new SMBC, or onlyparent, or she's defined the
narrative to create a family ofher own.
And so, jen, thank you, welcometo Define the Narrative podcast
(01:08):
.
Jenn (01:09):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Ann (01:12):
Absolutely so.
First of all, you're youactually are a new mom and you
have twins.
How are they doing and how oldare they?
Jenn (01:21):
They are doing well.
They will be four months on the8th of April.
Ann (01:26):
That's a beautiful age.
They'll be cutting teeth beforeyou know it, yes, so let's get
started, and I'll start from thebeginning.
Do you remember the first timeyou had the idea of creating a
family of your own?
Jenn (01:49):
you had the idea of creating a family of your own.
Yes, I do.
Actually, I was seeing mygynecologist and she had
mentioned to me one last time.
She was saying you know,whatever you're doing about
putting motherhood on hold, youmight want to start making a
move, because I had some recenthealth issues and and she was
saying, okay, I know you've beenputting it on hold.
And she was like you might wantto, you know, start making
(02:11):
certain moves.
And I was like, oh, okay, okay,I hear you.
Now I hear you.
She had been saying it for awhile, but I'm like I'm going to
ignore you this time.
I started to listen to her.
Ann (02:22):
And so, when you, when you had that moment, what feelings
surfaced?
Jenn (02:28):
Um, well, I'll say this I wouldn't say every girl, but
most girls have that idea intheir mind where, you know, you
grow up, you meet somebody, youfall in love, you get married,
you know things like that.
So I kind of had that in mindand and for some reason I
thought like okay, by the timeI'm 32, I'll, you know, be
(02:53):
married, I'll have a house, I'llprobably be finished having
kids or at the very least haveone, and by this time I think I
was about 31.
And I'm like I don't think thisis going to according to plan,
like I originally thought, and,you know, I might want to start
thinking about other avenues.
Ann (03:13):
Were any of those feelings, doubts that you had, because I
know like for me, I had been ina relationship for five years
and it was my first realrelationship.
So I truly, truly loved thisperson and I was like you.
It was marriage, the house, thefamily, and for me a lot of my
(03:41):
feelings were centered around myability to find a relationship
and I connected it to myself-worth.
So I've done a lot of work onthat, but did you did?
Did some of the feelings comeup where they were?
They related to kind of theability to find a relationship,
or did you feel pretty solid,like you know what, like they're
(04:02):
not showing up, they're notcoming into my life, the ones
like I know what I'm supposed tohave and it's not happening?
Jenn (04:09):
I think it was a little bit of the latter and and a lot
of thinking that I didn't wantto just find somebody or rush
into a relationship just for thesake of becoming a mother.
You know you can ignore all thered flags to become a mother
(04:29):
and then somewhere down the lineit kind of bites you in the
butt.
I didn't want it to be one ofthose situations.
You know you kind of wanted tobe in the relationship for the
right reasons, you wanted tofeel right, so to speak.
I totally kind of motivated my,my move a little bit.
Ann (04:47):
I totally, I totally agree with that, because when that
relationship fell apart, when Ihad to have a conversation with
my mother, I said look, Ibasically, you know, have 18
months to meet somebody.
And I said that's not enoughand my biggest fear was divorce.
So I completely understand that.
So from that point you had thatdoctor's appointment.
(05:10):
How much time elapsed from thatmoment before you actually had
that moment where you had madethe decision and said this is
what I'm going to do?
Jenn (05:20):
When you sit back and think about it, I think it was
very short.
I had that conversation, Iwould say, april, and then
September, october Fairly quick,a few months.
I was starting to put thepieces together and you know, I
know it's a big financial costso of course you know, so to
(05:45):
speak, trying to get your ducksin a row.
So I was working through thatand and try to see how that fit
in my current lifestyle and whatchanges I need to make going
forward.
Ann (05:56):
So financial issues were kind of the first thing.
Jenn (06:01):
Did you do research?
I did.
I've done somewhat little bitof research, searched online,
because at first I thought itwould be just very simple.
The route I went was purchasingdonor sperm.
So I was thinking like, okay,purchase donor sperm, do
assisted reproduction called IUI, and I thought it would be very
(06:22):
straightforward.
It wasn't until later on, whenyou check your fertility and
things of that nature, I needextra steps which require extra
funding.
So it took a little bit longerthan what I originally
anticipated.
Ann (06:35):
So you got your finances in order and without divulging
your financial records, becausefor me it was like I'm not ready
, and then someone said andyou're never ready.
Jenn (06:48):
And I go on.
Ann (06:49):
The you'll figure it out as you go Is that kind of where
you were.
It's like, okay, I got this,but then we'll figure the rest
out.
Jenn (06:56):
It was kind of half Okay.
I got this pretty much figuredout and then the other parts.
I'm like I'll figure it out asI go along.
I'll work around it.
You know, I'll have plan A, band C, and if A doesn't work out
, we still have B and C to workwith.
Ann (07:10):
Yes, I totally get that.
That's actually very, verysimilar to what I had, and mine
too included.
And what if I don't getpregnant?
Because for me I had a certainamount of money and I knew that
at the end of that and I didthink through it.
Did you think through what if Iexhaust all of my financial
(07:35):
resources and you know that youstill want to be a mother?
Did you think things like youcould adopt if you couldn't have
a child yourself or conceive achild yourself?
Jenn (07:44):
I would say I thought about it, but not too much.
I would say I was a little bitnaive.
I had the notion that, okay, Ido it once, everything will work
out 100%.
I didn't really too much thinkabout the what ifs.
Other friends that I talkedabout with they did bring up the
topic but I was like it's goingto work.
(08:04):
The first time I do it,everything will be fine.
I don't have to worry aboutthat option, you know, and if I
do I'll worry about it.
Then that was my, you know mythought process about it.
Ann (08:17):
I think that's a really good for me.
I did a lot.
I thought everything throughbefore I did it and I think it's
more of.
I just wanted to know, like eventhe worst case scenario, I just
wanted to know, even thoughthere was a lot of like I don't
have the answer for this, but Ithink, in terms of of the
creating of a family, um, it waspreparing myself for worst case
(08:38):
scenario.
Um, did you?
And so just um, it sounds likeyou didn't have this thought,
but how and this isn't aquestion I gave you, but I'm
going to throw this out therehow adamant were you inside of
you?
Because I'm just rememberingnow, I did a lot of soul
searching and some of thecriticism not feedback, however
(09:00):
you want to call it that I gotwas um, why don't you adopt?
However you want to call itthat, I got was why don't you
adopt?
And I had to do a lot of soulsearching about the fact that I
wanted to at least attempt tohave a child that I gave birth
to, that was genetically relatedto me.
Now, at the time I was tryingto get pregnant, egg donation
(09:22):
was so new.
In fact, freezing of eggs wasnot even as safe and viable as
it is now.
Did you check in with yourselfabout how adamant you were about
wanting to have a child, orhave a child that was
genetically yours.
Jenn (09:43):
I didn't really think about it too much but I was very
adamant about having a child,that it being biologically
linked to me, because when Ifirst went into it I didn't have
any that I knew of fertilityissues.
It was as I went through theprocess.
Then I'm discovering otherthings and then also the brief
(10:05):
little period I did look intoadoption.
It was the cost.
You know it's a high cost, iseven more than the route that I
did go and I'm like this iscompletely out of the question
for me.
Ann (10:18):
It is interesting how you find that, you know, some things
are more expensive, even ifthey seem like they're an option
financially.
Finances are a huge obstacle,you know, and I see a lot of
people who use surrogates andI'm like I just wouldn't, you
know, I just I wouldn't havebeen able to access that.
(10:40):
So there's an equity issue inthat.
Jenn (10:42):
So the technical part, the finances, because usually you
know me, and the thing is, ifI'm bringing something to you
(11:11):
very serious, I've probably doneworked out all the kinks.
I've really thought about thewhat ifs, the this and the that.
My family did question a bitbecause they knew about some of
my health issues but they didn'tknow everything.
So once I started going throughthe process and explaining to
them well, because I did IVF sothey were like well, why do you
(11:35):
have to do IVF?
Well, it's because these issues, these certain health issues.
So whether I'm in arelationship or not, I still
would have had to do IVF as well.
Ann (11:44):
And so, in terms of you creating a family of your own,
that wasn't an issue, it wasmore of why, and so why are you
choosing to do it the way you'redoing it?
Right and so no?
Jenn (11:56):
judgment, no, no judgment.
And because I more or lesswould be kind of the first one
in the family who's done IVF.
So it's just more of theunknown.
What is that?
What does that entail?
They've heard about it and itrequires a lot of medication,
but they didn't really know allthe details.
Ann (12:13):
So they were more concerned about your physical health and
your medical health in terms ofyou creating a family of your
own.
They were fine with that nofeedback or questions.
That's really good, because I Ithere's a lot of judgment and a
lot of people that receive thatjudgment, and I think one of
the defining moments for me waswhen I knew and I had gone to
(12:36):
visit my mother, who was my bestfriend, and there was a long
three hour drive back from thebeach in Alabama to new Orleans,
where I had to, you know, havethat conversation and I had to
say I completely understandwhere you're coming from and I
need you to understand that Ihave to make this decision.
So I think it's really greatthat you had the support of your
(12:58):
family and your friends tocreate the family.
It sounds like it was moreabout why are you doing things
that cost a certain way or whyare you going about it in a
certain way.
So you decided you were goingto do it and did you.
So you started with did you useyour OBGYN or did you go to a
reproductive endocrinologist?
Jenn (13:19):
I went to a reproductive endocrinologist because certain
things were covered in withinsurance and wasn't, and I was
just learning about the process.
There's a lot of things I paidfor out of pocket that I
probably wouldn't have paid forif I knew, you know.
So I learned a lot of things.
That's what led me to IVF.
I went to one reproductiveendocrinologist and then I had
(13:44):
to switch to another one due tocost, of course, and doing all
this, I did this like rightbefore COVID hit, so that
through a lot of things had alot of things have to be delayed
because, you know, with COVIDeverything pretty much stopped.
Ann (14:03):
So what recommendations would you and you're in the
southeast United States whatrecommendations would you give
in terms of someone who is madethe decision?
I have the pot of money that Ihave.
I know, first of all, know whatyour insurance does and does
not cover.
What recommendations would yougive in terms of looking for the
(14:24):
right doctor?
Anything?
Jenn (14:27):
Recommendations, even with now, with the changes in laws
and everything I woulddefinitely say make sure you
know your insurance, know whatstate you live in, because
certain laws may apply to you,certain things may not.
You may have to go out of state.
I mean, I actually went to myclinic I went to was located in
New York, so that meanttraveling quite a bit for me
(14:51):
every time I wanted to have aprocedure done and just knowing
how that will fit into yourlifestyle.
You know finances are a bigpart, but once you have the
finance piece all the way, youknow your health status.
Ann (15:05):
It's pretty straightforward from there, and so you looked
for the doctor who was able tooffer.
Was it the price that you werelooking at?
Was it how you felt about theirapproach?
What was it that made youchoose finally choose the doctor
that you were looking at?
Was it how you felt about theirapproach?
What was it that made youchoose, finally choose the
doctor that you chose?
Jenn (15:23):
The clinic I chose was CNY Fertility.
So first, of course, the cost,because that is one of the
things they put out there, thatthey're lower cost than most
clinics.
And then also, after that, thedoctors, the methods.
Every clinic does differentprotocols.
They're pretty much the same,but everyone has differences, so
(15:44):
that was another thing that Iwent with as well.
Ann (15:47):
Very good.
Yeah, I actually found myreproductive endocrinologist had
a cash offering and it was.
It felt like I mean this was2000.
When did I start 2010.
So it was like a cash rate forone whole cycle, cause I had
never tried to get pregnant, Ihad never gotten pregnant, and
(16:10):
so it was per month for all ofthe appointments and everything.
There was a flat rate.
And then if, if and when Ibecame pregnant, there was what
was included.
After that and when you went togo look for your donor, one of
the biggest questions I get whenpeople find out that I
conceived my son using donorsperm is how did you decide
(16:34):
which one?
What was?
What was the process?
How did you decide which one?
Jenn (16:37):
What was the process, like the process I did, was I said I
would pick five and I pickedthose five and the main thing
for me was health.
Luckily, when I went to theprevious clinic, they suggested
that I do genetic testing tofind out if your carrier is
certain conditions.
(16:57):
Well, I did so that narroweddown which donors I would choose
, and then from there I guessyou could say vanity issues like
, okay, some of them they hadadult pictures, some of them
that children, childlikepictures.
So I would probably at thatpoint pick someone.
Okay, could you see yourselfwith this person?
(17:17):
Would this be someone that youpossibly may date?
And then I kind of went fromthere and I showed it to friends
and family and I'm like, hey,frank, one through five, which
one would you choose, you know?
And then, whatever one was thehighest one, that's what I went
with.
Ann (17:33):
Oh, so you let you, let the folks that you care, that your,
your extended family, help youchoose.
Yes, that's awesome.
So you mentioned genetictesting.
So you had genetic testingyourself and then did you have
the sperm genetically tested oryou just went from what you knew
.
Jenn (17:50):
I just went off of myself and I went from there.
Ann (17:54):
And then you mentioned that some of the donors, they had
pictures Did you get?
Is it anonymous or willing tobe known?
Known at 18.
Okay so that's what I got.
I got willing to be known and Iactually got videos.
Did you get videos?
Not?
Jenn (18:11):
with the donor I chose.
There wasn't videos, but therewas some of them that had adult
pictures, and then, of course,they had the childhood pictures
as well.
Ann (18:18):
Yeah, I got childhood pictures, I got adult pictures
and and I got video and it'sinteresting that you mentioned
that.
Can I see myself dating?
What really got me was when Isaw the video and I said,
because I had a, my brother, Ihave a half brother that we
didn't know about and I met asan adult and the mannerisms that
(18:40):
are hereditary, it freaked usout.
So I was like, if your childhas these mannerisms, is it
going to annoy you?
And when I looked, when Ilooked at his donor, I was like
I got it.
I got it.
So it's interesting that thedifferent ways that we think
(19:00):
about what our children will belike and how we can choose that
donor.
So you chose willing to beknown donor and for those that
don't know and you can add on,but for mine, anytime after my
son is 18, he, the donor, hasagreed to at least one in-person
meeting and all he has to do iscontact the sperm bank.
(19:24):
I have no right to that meeting.
And is that pretty much whatyour agreement is?
Same here?
Yes, and in your mind, did youhave any thoughts about like you
chose willing to be known for areason?
What were your thoughts aboutwhy you wanted to have that
option for your child or yourchildren.
Jenn (19:46):
I at least felt that they may have questions when they're
older and they want to know, atleast biologically, where they
came from, and I won't be ableto answer those questions, but
at least this person may be ableto answer those questions as
well.
Ann (20:01):
Yeah, For me it was with my half brother.
I asked him, I said what aresome of the things?
And I actually asked otherpeople that had conceived their
children using anonymous donor,and I think part of it was just
wanting to be able to seebiologically where you come from
and being really clear that youknow for my son, this is not
(20:25):
your father.
However, this is geneticallywhere you come from, and giving
them that power and knowing thatthere's different stages in
life where they just want toknow that and that if they don't
want to, they don't have tohave a lot of friends that are
adopted and they have nointerest in seeking their
parents.
So, um, okay, and so then youstarted the process.
(20:48):
You're going back and forth toNew York city.
Um, how long from the time youfirst, like the first time you
tried?
So you started with IUI.
How many IUIs did you gothrough before you moved on to
IVF?
Jenn (21:03):
Okay, Well, I didn't even get a chance to do IUI because
at the previous clinic we didsome testing and found out that
both my tubes were blocked.
So at that point it was likeyou might as well just go to IVF
, don't even waste your time.
I was like, makes sense, youknow, you know?
Because I was thinking like,okay, well, if they're blocked,
can I do another surgery.
(21:24):
And they are explaining thewhole process Like you shouldn't
even waste your time doinganother surgery, just go
directly to IVF.
And then they startedexplaining the process While
it's more expensive, but on theback end it's less expensive,
(21:46):
the whole process.
And I was like, okay, it makessense, now I just have to find
out, or?
Ann (21:47):
figure out the financial piece of it.
Right, that's a big one.
And and were you able to?
How many harvests did you haveto go through?
Jenn (21:55):
Luckily only one.
I was able to get enoughembryos created with the one to
do a couple attempts, because itdid take a couple attempts to
get my babies there.
Ann (22:06):
Okay, so you went through the process and you had your
embryos and then how many?
How many attempts did it takebefore you got pregnant?
Five, they were the fifthtransfer temps did it take
before you got pregnant?
Five, they were the fifthtransfer for me, and were they
the last one before you wouldhave to do another harvest, or
did you have more embryos?
Jenn (22:24):
I still have embryos left.
Ann (22:26):
Very good.
So from the time you started,you made the decision, you had
your first trip to New York, sowe'll take the first doctor out.
But once you started with yourdoctor, from that time to the
time, or from the first time youhad an insemination to the time
you got pregnant, what was thetime lapse?
I would say about four and ahalf years.
(22:52):
Four and a half years A longtime.
Yes, did it feel like longer?
Jenn (22:58):
Actually, no, it felt like it fly by, but when you sit
back and think about it it'slike wow, four years.
I mean, granted, we did gothrough a pandemic and a lot of
that four year period waswaiting and you know, along with
finances, I wanted to pay offcertain things before I would go
into another transfer, so thatdelayed some of my transfers as
(23:21):
well.
Ann (23:22):
So it wasn't so much like you were trying every single
opportunity.
There were some other factorsthat stretched the time out yes,
and I did conceive IUI.
So for IVF cycle in terms,because I know there's a longer
prep, what's the cycle phase inan IVF for an implantation?
Jenn (23:46):
Okay, so well, I would say everyone's different.
I would say for me it wasroughly about two weeks.
You know, you get your monthlycycle.
You call the clinic, say, hey,this is the first day of my
cycle.
You come in for what'sconsidered baseline.
They do some labs to make sureyour follicles look good,
everything else look good, andthen they give you a list or a
(24:08):
protocol of medications you haveto take every day.
Within that two week periodyou're at least coming in, I
would say, two to three times,for blood work, check,
ultrasounds, things of thatnature.
And they will also, towards theend of that two-week period,
give you a date on which you'regoing to do a frozen embryo
transfer.
Ann (24:28):
So it's within a regular cycle.
It's not something extendedBecause from what I've heard and
read, it's all the differentthings that they try to do.
Maybe that's more on theharvest end.
So it's within a regularmonthly cycle.
Jenn (24:44):
Right For the transfer.
Now, if you're harvesting, yeah, it does take a little bit
longer, but just transfers isvery simple, straightforward,
roughly, I would say, two weeks.
Maybe at most Some people mightbe longer, but for me it's been
roughly two weeks.
Ann (24:59):
And so now you have two babies, and what is the
narrative that you have createdfor your family?
Jenn (25:06):
The narrative I would say is I'm a mother trying to raise
two children who happens to justbe single.
That's what it is for me.
Ann (25:16):
And how will you?
What are you?
What thoughts have you hadabout teaching your children
about how they were created andabout your family, knowing that
there's traditional family outthere, the narrative that
they're going to be faced with,that they don't necessarily have
(25:37):
that same narrative.
What thoughts do you have abouthow you're going to approach
that?
Jenn (25:41):
Thoughts I thought about.
That is that there are multipletypes of families out there.
There are some that are justmothers, only fathers, only two
mothers, two fathers.
Different variations.
There are multiple families outthere, but no matter what
family there is out there, loveis love.
(26:02):
You know you're not going to beloved any less than anyone else
out there.
Ann (26:05):
Yep, and for me it was also very easy because I would just
say, well, this is our family.
Just the same way you don'thave a sister, you don't have a
brother, like our family is ourfamily and this is what we do
have.
I will just give a shout outsomeone else that I've been
trying from the beginning to sitfor an interview.
I love Todd Parr and his books,and we have many of them, and
(26:26):
the family book is one of myabsolute favorites.
It basically encapsulateseverything that you just said.
So if you, if you haven't foundhis, his books, If you haven't
found his books, that's one thatI would recommend.
So here's one that I you know alot of.
(26:47):
My focus is equity in the world.
As a Black woman, whatobstacles, prejudice,
stereotypes do you feel that youfaced in creating a family of
your own, or did you feel thatyou faced any of them?
Jenn (27:01):
I know about the stereotypes out there.
I really haven't faced any asof yet.
I would say I know theexistence is that, you know,
single Black female has children, things of that nature has
children, things of that nature,but a little different
narrative.
You know, we go about creatingour families differently.
(27:23):
So just being cognizant of thestereotypes out there and
explaining to those who just maynot know about what's actually
going on, yeah, that's.
Ann (27:37):
That's actually true.
There's an intentionality to it, right that you've thought it
through.
So who's your shero in thesingle mothers by choice world?
Do you have one?
Jenn (27:57):
when I was starting to go through the process, because you
always want to see someone thatlooks like you going through
the process, so you're not alone.
I mainly looked at a lot ofvideos from Tamika TTC and
simply Tanika.
Like every time they posted thevideo on YouTube I would sit
there and watch, because youknow they went there before you
(28:19):
and you see them going throughthe process, so you're not out
there feeling like you're aloneas well.
Ann (28:24):
Absolutely and very inspiring to see, see it all
transpire right.
It's like yes, yes, we will getthere.
And who has been your biggestsupport in this process?
Jenn (28:36):
Okay, my biggest support, like I say to my family, but
surprisingly, I would say, myyounger brother.
He's three and a half yearsyounger than me and when I told
him like hey, I'm going to gothrough this process, and once
he and it's constantly remindingme, you know you would think
that they're his kids, you knowhe questioned me like what are
(29:08):
they doing?
He sends them like educationalthings.
I'm very shocked, like verysurprised.
Ann (29:16):
He takes his job of being an uncle very seriously.
Yes, he does Were you all bestfriends before you started this
process.
Jenn (29:24):
We were close, but I think with the kids being here, we've
become even closer.
I think that's amazing.
Ann (29:31):
That's really good.
Okay, so you're a mom now, anda mom of two.
My goodness, that's a big one.
What is the biggest surpriseabout being a mom?
My goodness, that's a big one.
What?
Jenn (29:40):
is the biggest surprise about being a mom.
Biggest surprise, I would say,is I mean just learning from
them and watching them grow.
And you know, every mom saysthat you know but to to go from
zero children to two and youwatch them grow and learn every
(30:01):
day and all you can do is sitback and laugh and watch and
it's like just a few months agoit was just me and now I have
you guys to be considering andit's just amazing.
It really is.
Ann (30:15):
And they change so fast.
Jenn (30:18):
Like every single day they change.
Ann (30:21):
What's been your biggest struggle of being a new mom?
I know there are a lot, but ifyou think of like what you know
and it could change right,you're still early on.
But when you think about theselast four months, what's been
your biggest struggle?
Jenn (30:36):
I would say going back to work and trying to fit in your
work schedule with balancingwith being there for your
children.
You know, before I had thechildren, I could say that I
work, work, work.
Where do you find me at work,doing extra overtime, things of
that nature?
Now I'm like I have to, youknow, cut back on it so I make
(30:59):
sure I spend more time with them, because you know, when I go to
work I do miss them.
You know I find myself, youknow, calling them throughout my
work day like, hey, how are thebabies, what are they doing?
Can I FaceTime them?
Cause you know you miss them.
You go from, you know,maternity leave where you spend
like 24, seven with them to like, okay, I'm gone a big chunk of
(31:25):
the day and I kind of miss them.
Ann (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, I know, I, I, um, yeah, I.
My son was five and a halfmonths when I went back to work
and it was, I think, the bestfive and a half months of my
life.
And it's okay when they sleepso much.
I really struggled when he wasawake more, because then you're
like, okay, well, by the time Iget home he goes to sleep at six
o'clock, so I literally see mychild for this small period of
(31:50):
time.
So you try to eke in all ofthose joys and those struggles
and the weekends, right.
So when you reflect on theprocess of getting pregnant,
what differences do you noticeabout your feelings while in the
process versus looking back onthe process now that you have a
family?
And I want to give some contextfor me.
(32:14):
I, from the first time that Istarted trying to get pregnant
until I actually got pregnant.
It was only six months.
The roller coaster for mebecause I went through IUI.
The roller coaster for me.
I had two failed IUIs, a changein medicine.
But the third time I was a messon day three when I went to get
(32:37):
the examination and I wasdiagnosed with poor ovarian
reserve and I thought it wasover.
I was trying to donate my lastfile of sperm.
I was like, okay, now I go on acruise with my mother, I'll
adopt, I can get my finances inorder for another five or six
years.
And so for me there was a lot ofemotion that just it felt like
(33:00):
an eternity and that it wasnever going to happen.
Once I was pregnant and I knewthe pregnancy was going to hold.
When I looked back I was like,oh my gosh, it was only six
months.
It felt like it could have beensix decades.
When you look back, when youfinally were pregnant and you
knew like this is reallyhappening and four and a half
years is a long time and aglobal pandemic too how did it
(33:25):
feel when you looked back on it?
Did you feel like you werelosing?
Because I watched you and I wasjust like I wish I could tell
people like just don't give up,like keep going.
I know it seems hard.
How did it feel looking backversus the way you felt in the
moment?
Jenn (33:41):
Looking back, I would say once I got out of the first
trimester and I was able to lookback, like you stated, you know
, keep going, take time out ifyou need to grieve.
You know and I think that was apart of the big gaps why it
took me so long I think if Iwent head first into another
(34:03):
transfer right after a lossemotionally I probably would not
be ready.
That's one thing I will tellpeople.
You know, take the time out, dothe necessary work for you.
If that means, hey, you needtwo weeks out, two months or two
years, do that.
Those are the things that Ilook back and notice, because
(34:26):
with each transfer I had earlymiscarriages.
So with one of them that Iremember clearly, I went back to
work and I didn't do thenecessary work to deal with the
grief process.
I was fine as long as I wasgoing to doctor's appointments
trying to figure out what wasgoing on.
(34:47):
But once I got past that and Ihad to deal with emotions and
certain questions, I was a totalmess.
Like I went to work, someoneasked me what if you never had
children?
It's a simple question initself, but at that moment I
burst into tears because Ididn't do the necessary work
(35:10):
needed to deal with that.
I can say that now that's fine,but back then, no, I was not
ready to deal with that question.
So I would say, once you getpast the emotions behind it,
deal with whatever you need todeal with.
It's a great thing.
It's a wonderful thingPregnancy you get to see the
(35:32):
changes in your body.
It's great, it's beautiful.
But definitely do the necessarywork, because your emotions
will be on a roller coaster.
Ann (35:43):
Yeah, and the hormones don't help.
That you bring up a reallyimportant point because for me,
I I didn't deal with amiscarriage, mine was, I was
never getting pregnant.
I should have invested inpregnancy tests, for, for women
who do experience a miscarriage,it's, it's, it's a, it's a
(36:07):
terrible trick, right To sayhere you are, your body's doing
it, you you made it and thenit's not there.
So I just wanted to mark thatthat work to you know, again,
it's this journey.
It's easy once you're there togo.
Oh, yeah, sure, keep going.
Someone's listening and they'relike well, that's fine for you,
jen and Ann, because you nowhave kids.
(36:28):
There are folks out there whothey attempted it.
They had miscarriages or nevergot pregnant and they got to the
end of their finances.
However it is, we all have toknow what we have to try to
create a family in the way thatwe want before we go on to the
next plan.
But knowing that you're atdifferent kind of aspects of
(36:52):
biology, um, like I'll neverforget the the time that I got
pregnant, I had one, one egg,and I was like I'm doing this so
that I can say I did it, and mydoctor was like well, I hope
the sperm and the egg get along,but you know it only takes one
and it was my last attempt.
You know there's all thesethings that you have to
emotionally process what itmeans to you.
(37:13):
Some people it may not hit inthe same way, so I wanted to
mark that and thank you forbringing that up.
That we all have to process andthe hormones that we're dealing
with.
To that it's your journey andand we have to process joy and
grief and suffering, but wherethere's suffering there's joy to
(37:34):
come forward.
So thank you for sharing that.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I think my last question isand you've kind of touched on it
how do you balance your life?
Does the possibility of havinga partner around or having more
kids ever swim around in yourhead and do you think about how
(37:55):
this family that you've createdand knowing that you know you're
now responsible in all the waysfor it, how do you think about
moving forward, knowing you arestill a woman, you're not dead
on the inside.
You may or may not want abigger family.
Do you consider it?
What do you think?
What are your feelings and howdo you balance it all, knowing
(38:16):
that your plate's really fullright now, but that it's not
going to be like this forever.
Jenn (38:21):
Okay, when it comes to relationship, I keep hope alive
I'm not saying that just becauseI have children now that I
won't be in a relationship later.
So I do keep hope alive thatone day that I will be in a
relationship.
And if that does not happen,I'm fine as well.
I mean, I am still going to bemy happy-go-lucky self.
(38:44):
As far as children, I mean, Ican say right now, because my
hands are full, I'll say no,these are it.
But I do keep the possibilityalive that maybe I might have
more children in the future.
Ann (38:57):
Do you look at the way and where you are right now and
wonder if cause I circle back tothe beginning and and for
myself as well?
And I do.
I date and I go through phases.
I actually had dating coach andI've gotten to a point where I
realized dating is what's fun,whether you're with a in a
(39:17):
relationship or not.
It's about doing fun things inlife, enjoying life and getting
to know men or whoever it is youlike to date and to share those
experiences.
When you think about how you'vecreated your family, knowing
that, like me, you know it'sfunny, it's what you think you
want and I can't say that Ididn't want it.
(39:39):
But do you ever wonder if thisis the way it was always
supposed to be?
And it just took like you hadto get to the point that you got
here but that really this isthe way it was always supposed
to be and that you were workingagainst kind of a deep culture
of what you're supposed to do.
Jenn (39:59):
I do think sometimes I do think about that sometimes.
You know, was it alwayssupposed to be this way?
If I could have gotten out ofmy own way, so to speak, could I
have had children sooner, CouldI have been a little bit more
happier sooner in regards to theprocess, Possibly.
You know, sometimes we do relyon, or we do get caught up on,
(40:24):
things with society and otherthings demands, things with our
families.
So I mean, anything is possible.
Sometimes we just have to getout of our own way and do what
we feel will make us happy, orwhat's necessary to make us
happy.
Right.
Ann (40:43):
We have to ask ourselves what is it that the external is
trying to suggest or tell us todo?
But what is it I think that'sthe hardest part is really
centering and saying what do Iwant and what blocks am I
putting in front of me?
And sometimes it is that work ofimagining what your life will
(41:06):
be like, knowing that you'regoing to do something that is
unlike what's ever been done,and it takes a lot of courage.
And you've been courageous andyou have defined your own
narrative and it is unique toyou, although we have a
community of women and men whohave done this, and you, you
(41:27):
know you are a bold, brave and,I want to say, black woman,
because we need more people thatrepresent the variety of the
world that are doing this,because you can be from any race
, religion, culture I even willventure to say socioeconomic, if
you are mindful of it to definethe narrative of our family.
(41:50):
And so congratulations, jen.
Thank you for this interview,and we'll close it out by saying
what recommendations would yougive someone listening, who may
be at any stage of the process?
What recommendation would yougive to a woman who is in the
process of defining thenarrative of their family or man
(42:11):
?
Jenn (42:12):
yeah, um, what I would definitely suggest?
Um, knowing you and finding outwhat makes you happy and
blocking out all the other noisethat's around.
Once you get down to the nittygritty and knowing what makes
you happy, the process ofdecision should be fairly easy.
(42:34):
It's just blocking out all theother noise behind it.
Ann (42:38):
I could not agree more, jen .
Thank you so much.
Thank you, good luck with thebabies and just a shout out to
your mom who's taking care ofthem.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Define, the Narrative podcast.
We invite you to follow us onInstagram, Facebook and sign up
for our email list atdefinethenarrative.
us.
Until next time.
Ann (43:12):
This is Define the Narrative podcast with your host
, Ann Argo.
This is Define the Narrative podcast.
I have been trying to get mynext guest to sit for an
(00:45):
interview for a while actually,and I don't know what happened
this time, but I'm so gratefulthat Jen decided to sit for the
interview this time.
Jen is a new SMBC, or onlyparent, or she's defined the
narrative to create a family ofher own.
And so, jen, thank you, welcometo Define the Narrative podcast
(01:08):
.
Jenn (01:09):
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
Thanks for having me.
Ann (01:12):
Absolutely so.
First of all, you're youactually are a new mom and you
have twins.
How are they doing and how oldare they?
Jenn (01:21):
They are doing well.
They will be four months on the8th of April.
Ann (01:26):
That's a beautiful age.
They'll be cutting teeth beforeyou know it, yes, so let's get
started, and I'll start from thebeginning.
Do you remember the first timeyou had the idea of creating a
family of your own?
Jenn (01:49):
you had the idea of creating a family of your own.
Yes, I do.
Actually, I was seeing mygynecologist and she had
mentioned to me one last time.
She was saying you know,whatever you're doing about
putting motherhood on hold, youmight want to start making a
move, because I had some recenthealth issues and and she was
saying, okay, I know you've beenputting it on hold.
And she was like you might wantto, you know, start making
(02:11):
certain moves.
And I was like, oh, okay, okay,I hear you.
Now I hear you.
She had been saying it for awhile, but I'm like I'm going to
ignore you this time.
I started to listen to her.
Ann (02:22):
And so, when you, when you had that moment, what feelings
surfaced?
Jenn (02:28):
Um, well, I'll say this I wouldn't say every girl, but
most girls have that idea intheir mind where, you know, you
grow up, you meet somebody, youfall in love, you get married,
you know things like that.
So I kind of had that in mindand and for some reason I
thought like okay, by the timeI'm 32, I'll, you know, be
(02:53):
married, I'll have a house, I'llprobably be finished having
kids or at the very least haveone, and by this time I think I
was about 31.
And I'm like I don't think thisis going to according to plan,
like I originally thought, and,you know, I might want to start
thinking about other avenues.
Ann (03:13):
Were any of those feelings, doubts that you had, because I
know like for me, I had been ina relationship for five years
and it was my first realrelationship.
So I truly, truly loved thisperson and I was like you.
It was marriage, the house, thefamily, and for me a lot of my
(03:41):
feelings were centered around myability to find a relationship
and I connected it to myself-worth.
So I've done a lot of work onthat, but did you did?
Did some of the feelings comeup where they were?
They related to kind of theability to find a relationship,
or did you feel pretty solid,like you know what, like they're
(04:02):
not showing up, they're notcoming into my life, the ones
like I know what I'm supposed tohave and it's not happening?
Jenn (04:09):
I think it was a little bit of the latter and and a lot
of thinking that I didn't wantto just find somebody or rush
into a relationship just for thesake of becoming a mother.
You know you can ignore all thered flags to become a mother
(04:29):
and then somewhere down the lineit kind of bites you in the
butt.
I didn't want it to be one ofthose situations.
You know you kind of wanted tobe in the relationship for the
right reasons, you wanted tofeel right, so to speak.
I totally kind of motivated my,my move a little bit.
Ann (04:47):
I totally, I totally agree with that, because when that
relationship fell apart, when Ihad to have a conversation with
my mother, I said look, Ibasically, you know, have 18
months to meet somebody.
And I said that's not enoughand my biggest fear was divorce.
So I completely understand that.
So from that point you had thatdoctor's appointment.
(05:10):
How much time elapsed from thatmoment before you actually had
that moment where you had madethe decision and said this is
what I'm going to do?
Jenn (05:20):
When you sit back and think about it, I think it was
very short.
I had that conversation, Iwould say, april, and then
September, october Fairly quick,a few months.
I was starting to put thepieces together and you know, I
know it's a big financial costso of course you know, so to
(05:45):
speak, trying to get your ducksin a row.
So I was working through thatand and try to see how that fit
in my current lifestyle and whatchanges I need to make going
forward.
Ann (05:56):
So financial issues were kind of the first thing.
Jenn (06:01):
Did you do research?
I did.
I've done somewhat little bitof research, searched online,
because at first I thought itwould be just very simple.
The route I went was purchasingdonor sperm.
So I was thinking like, okay,purchase donor sperm, do
assisted reproduction called IUI, and I thought it would be very
(06:22):
straightforward.
It wasn't until later on, whenyou check your fertility and
things of that nature, I needextra steps which require extra
funding.
So it took a little bit longerthan what I originally
anticipated.
Ann (06:35):
So you got your finances in order and without divulging
your financial records, becausefor me it was like I'm not ready
, and then someone said andyou're never ready.
Jenn (06:48):
And I go on.
Ann (06:49):
The you'll figure it out as you go Is that kind of where
you were.
It's like, okay, I got this,but then we'll figure the rest
out.
Jenn (06:56):
It was kind of half Okay.
I got this pretty much figuredout and then the other parts.
I'm like I'll figure it out asI go along.
I'll work around it.
You know, I'll have plan A, band C, and if A doesn't work out
, we still have B and C to workwith.
Ann (07:10):
Yes, I totally get that.
That's actually very, verysimilar to what I had, and mine
too included.
And what if I don't getpregnant?
Because for me I had a certainamount of money and I knew that
at the end of that and I didthink through it.
Did you think through what if Iexhaust all of my financial
(07:35):
resources and you know that youstill want to be a mother?
Did you think things like youcould adopt if you couldn't have
a child yourself or conceive achild yourself?
Jenn (07:44):
I would say I thought about it, but not too much.
I would say I was a little bitnaive.
I had the notion that, okay, Ido it once, everything will work
out 100%.
I didn't really too much thinkabout the what ifs.
Other friends that I talkedabout with they did bring up the
topic but I was like it's goingto work.
(08:04):
The first time I do it,everything will be fine.
I don't have to worry aboutthat option, you know, and if I
do I'll worry about it.
Then that was my, you know mythought process about it.
Ann (08:17):
I think that's a really good for me.
I did a lot.
I thought everything throughbefore I did it and I think it's
more of.
I just wanted to know, like eventhe worst case scenario, I just
wanted to know, even thoughthere was a lot of like I don't
have the answer for this, but Ithink, in terms of of the
creating of a family, um, it waspreparing myself for worst case
(08:38):
scenario.
Um, did you?
And so just um, it sounds likeyou didn't have this thought,
but how and this isn't aquestion I gave you, but I'm
going to throw this out therehow adamant were you inside of
you?
Because I'm just rememberingnow, I did a lot of soul
searching and some of thecriticism not feedback, however
(09:00):
you want to call it that I gotwas um, why don't you adopt?
However you want to call itthat, I got was why don't you
adopt?
And I had to do a lot of soulsearching about the fact that I
wanted to at least attempt tohave a child that I gave birth
to, that was genetically relatedto me.
Now, at the time I was tryingto get pregnant, egg donation
(09:22):
was so new.
In fact, freezing of eggs wasnot even as safe and viable as
it is now.
Did you check in with yourselfabout how adamant you were about
wanting to have a child, orhave a child that was
genetically yours.
Jenn (09:43):
I didn't really think about it too much but I was very
adamant about having a child,that it being biologically
linked to me, because when Ifirst went into it I didn't have
any that I knew of fertilityissues.
It was as I went through theprocess.
Then I'm discovering otherthings and then also the brief
(10:05):
little period I did look intoadoption.
It was the cost.
You know it's a high cost, iseven more than the route that I
did go and I'm like this iscompletely out of the question
for me.
Ann (10:18):
It is interesting how you find that, you know, some things
are more expensive, even ifthey seem like they're an option
financially.
Finances are a huge obstacle,you know, and I see a lot of
people who use surrogates andI'm like I just wouldn't, you
know, I just I wouldn't havebeen able to access that.
(10:40):
So there's an equity issue inthat.
Jenn (10:42):
So the technical part, the finances, because usually you
know me, and the thing is, ifI'm bringing something to you
(11:11):
very serious, I've probably doneworked out all the kinks.
I've really thought about thewhat ifs, the this and the that.
My family did question a bitbecause they knew about some of
my health issues but they didn'tknow everything.
So once I started going throughthe process and explaining to
them well, because I did IVF sothey were like well, why do you
(11:35):
have to do IVF?
Well, it's because these issues, these certain health issues.
So whether I'm in arelationship or not, I still
would have had to do IVF as well.
Ann (11:44):
And so, in terms of you creating a family of your own,
that wasn't an issue, it wasmore of why, and so why are you
choosing to do it the way you'redoing it?
Right and so no?
Jenn (11:56):
judgment, no, no judgment.
And because I more or lesswould be kind of the first one
in the family who's done IVF.
So it's just more of theunknown.
What is that?
What does that entail?
They've heard about it and itrequires a lot of medication,
but they didn't really know allthe details.
Ann (12:13):
So they were more concerned about your physical health and
your medical health in terms ofyou creating a family of your
own.
They were fine with that nofeedback or questions.
That's really good, because I Ithere's a lot of judgment and a
lot of people that receive thatjudgment, and I think one of
the defining moments for me waswhen I knew and I had gone to
(12:36):
visit my mother, who was my bestfriend, and there was a long
three hour drive back from thebeach in Alabama to new Orleans,
where I had to, you know, havethat conversation and I had to
say I completely understandwhere you're coming from and I
need you to understand that Ihave to make this decision.
So I think it's really greatthat you had the support of your
(12:58):
family and your friends tocreate the family.
It sounds like it was moreabout why are you doing things
that cost a certain way or whyare you going about it in a
certain way.
So you decided you were goingto do it and did you.
So you started with did you useyour OBGYN or did you go to a
reproductive endocrinologist?
Jenn (13:19):
I went to a reproductive endocrinologist because certain
things were covered in withinsurance and wasn't, and I was
just learning about the process.
There's a lot of things I paidfor out of pocket that I
probably wouldn't have paid forif I knew, you know.
So I learned a lot of things.
That's what led me to IVF.
I went to one reproductiveendocrinologist and then I had
(13:44):
to switch to another one due tocost, of course, and doing all
this, I did this like rightbefore COVID hit, so that
through a lot of things had alot of things have to be delayed
because, you know, with COVIDeverything pretty much stopped.
Ann (14:03):
So what recommendations would you and you're in the
southeast United States whatrecommendations would you give
in terms of someone who is madethe decision?
I have the pot of money that Ihave.
I know, first of all, know whatyour insurance does and does
not cover.
What recommendations would yougive in terms of looking for the
(14:24):
right doctor?
Anything?
Jenn (14:27):
Recommendations, even with now, with the changes in laws
and everything I woulddefinitely say make sure you
know your insurance, know whatstate you live in, because
certain laws may apply to you,certain things may not.
You may have to go out of state.
I mean, I actually went to myclinic I went to was located in
New York, so that meanttraveling quite a bit for me
(14:51):
every time I wanted to have aprocedure done and just knowing
how that will fit into yourlifestyle.
You know finances are a bigpart, but once you have the
finance piece all the way, youknow your health status.
Ann (15:05):
It's pretty straightforward from there, and so you looked
for the doctor who was able tooffer.
Was it the price that you werelooking at?
Was it how you felt about theirapproach?
What was it that made youchoose finally choose the doctor
that you were looking at?
Was it how you felt about theirapproach?
What was it that made youchoose, finally choose the
doctor that you chose?
Jenn (15:23):
The clinic I chose was CNY Fertility.
So first, of course, the cost,because that is one of the
things they put out there, thatthey're lower cost than most
clinics.
And then also, after that, thedoctors, the methods.
Every clinic does differentprotocols.
They're pretty much the same,but everyone has differences, so
(15:44):
that was another thing that Iwent with as well.
Ann (15:47):
Very good.
Yeah, I actually found myreproductive endocrinologist had
a cash offering and it was.
It felt like I mean this was2000.
When did I start 2010.
So it was like a cash rate forone whole cycle, cause I had
never tried to get pregnant, Ihad never gotten pregnant, and
(16:10):
so it was per month for all ofthe appointments and everything.
There was a flat rate.
And then if, if and when Ibecame pregnant, there was what
was included.
After that and when you went togo look for your donor, one of
the biggest questions I get whenpeople find out that I
conceived my son using donorsperm is how did you decide
(16:34):
which one?
What was?
What was the process?
How did you decide which one?
Jenn (16:37):
What was the process, like the process I did, was I said I
would pick five and I pickedthose five and the main thing
for me was health.
Luckily, when I went to theprevious clinic, they suggested
that I do genetic testing tofind out if your carrier is
certain conditions.
(16:57):
Well, I did so that narroweddown which donors I would choose
, and then from there I guessyou could say vanity issues like
, okay, some of them they hadadult pictures, some of them
that children, childlikepictures.
So I would probably at thatpoint pick someone.
Okay, could you see yourselfwith this person?
(17:17):
Would this be someone that youpossibly may date?
And then I kind of went fromthere and I showed it to friends
and family and I'm like, hey,frank, one through five, which
one would you choose, you know?
And then, whatever one was thehighest one, that's what I went
with.
Ann (17:33):
Oh, so you let you, let the folks that you care, that your,
your extended family, help youchoose.
Yes, that's awesome.
So you mentioned genetictesting.
So you had genetic testingyourself and then did you have
the sperm genetically tested oryou just went from what you knew
.
Jenn (17:50):
I just went off of myself and I went from there.
Ann (17:54):
And then you mentioned that some of the donors, they had
pictures Did you get?
Is it anonymous or willing tobe known?
Known at 18.
Okay so that's what I got.
I got willing to be known and Iactually got videos.
Did you get videos?
Not?
Jenn (18:11):
with the donor I chose.
There wasn't videos, but therewas some of them that had adult
pictures, and then, of course,they had the childhood pictures
as well.
Ann (18:18):
Yeah, I got childhood pictures, I got adult pictures
and and I got video and it'sinteresting that you mentioned
that.
Can I see myself dating?
What really got me was when Isaw the video and I said,
because I had a, my brother, Ihave a half brother that we
didn't know about and I met asan adult and the mannerisms that
(18:40):
are hereditary, it freaked usout.
So I was like, if your childhas these mannerisms, is it
going to annoy you?
And when I looked, when Ilooked at his donor, I was like
I got it.
I got it.
So it's interesting that thedifferent ways that we think
(19:00):
about what our children will belike and how we can choose that
donor.
So you chose willing to beknown donor and for those that
don't know and you can add on,but for mine, anytime after my
son is 18, he, the donor, hasagreed to at least one in-person
meeting and all he has to do iscontact the sperm bank.
(19:24):
I have no right to that meeting.
And is that pretty much whatyour agreement is?
Same here?
Yes, and in your mind, did youhave any thoughts about like you
chose willing to be known for areason?
What were your thoughts aboutwhy you wanted to have that
option for your child or yourchildren.
Jenn (19:46):
I at least felt that they may have questions when they're
older and they want to know, atleast biologically, where they
came from, and I won't be ableto answer those questions, but
at least this person may be ableto answer those questions as
well.
Ann (20:01):
Yeah, For me it was with my half brother.
I asked him, I said what aresome of the things?
And I actually asked otherpeople that had conceived their
children using anonymous donor,and I think part of it was just
wanting to be able to seebiologically where you come from
and being really clear that youknow for my son, this is not
(20:25):
your father.
However, this is geneticallywhere you come from, and giving
them that power and knowing thatthere's different stages in
life where they just want toknow that and that if they don't
want to, they don't have tohave a lot of friends that are
adopted and they have nointerest in seeking their
parents.
So, um, okay, and so then youstarted the process.
(20:48):
You're going back and forth toNew York city.
Um, how long from the time youfirst, like the first time you
tried?
So you started with IUI.
How many IUIs did you gothrough before you moved on to
IVF?
Jenn (21:03):
Okay, Well, I didn't even get a chance to do IUI because
at the previous clinic we didsome testing and found out that
both my tubes were blocked.
So at that point it was likeyou might as well just go to IVF
, don't even waste your time.
I was like, makes sense, youknow, you know?
Because I was thinking like,okay, well, if they're blocked,
can I do another surgery.
(21:24):
And they are explaining thewhole process Like you shouldn't
even waste your time doinganother surgery, just go
directly to IVF.
And then they startedexplaining the process While
it's more expensive, but on theback end it's less expensive,
(21:46):
the whole process.
And I was like, okay, it makessense, now I just have to find
out, or?
Ann (21:47):
figure out the financial piece of it.
Right, that's a big one.
And and were you able to?
How many harvests did you haveto go through?
Jenn (21:55):
Luckily only one.
I was able to get enoughembryos created with the one to
do a couple attempts, because itdid take a couple attempts to
get my babies there.
Ann (22:06):
Okay, so you went through the process and you had your
embryos and then how many?
How many attempts did it takebefore you got pregnant?
Five, they were the fifthtransfer temps did it take
before you got pregnant?
Five, they were the fifthtransfer for me, and were they
the last one before you wouldhave to do another harvest, or
did you have more embryos?
Jenn (22:24):
I still have embryos left.
Ann (22:26):
Very good.
So from the time you started,you made the decision, you had
your first trip to New York, sowe'll take the first doctor out.
But once you started with yourdoctor, from that time to the
time, or from the first time youhad an insemination to the time
you got pregnant, what was thetime lapse?
I would say about four and ahalf years.
(22:52):
Four and a half years A longtime.
Yes, did it feel like longer?
Jenn (22:58):
Actually, no, it felt like it fly by, but when you sit
back and think about it it'slike wow, four years.
I mean, granted, we did gothrough a pandemic and a lot of
that four year period waswaiting and you know, along with
finances, I wanted to pay offcertain things before I would go
into another transfer, so thatdelayed some of my transfers as
(23:21):
well.
Ann (23:22):
So it wasn't so much like you were trying every single
opportunity.
There were some other factorsthat stretched the time out yes,
and I did conceive IUI.
So for IVF cycle in terms,because I know there's a longer
prep, what's the cycle phase inan IVF for an implantation?
Jenn (23:46):
Okay, so well, I would say everyone's different.
I would say for me it wasroughly about two weeks.
You know, you get your monthlycycle.
You call the clinic, say, hey,this is the first day of my
cycle.
You come in for what'sconsidered baseline.
They do some labs to make sureyour follicles look good,
everything else look good, andthen they give you a list or a
(24:08):
protocol of medications you haveto take every day.
Within that two week periodyou're at least coming in, I
would say, two to three times,for blood work, check,
ultrasounds, things of thatnature.
And they will also, towards theend of that two-week period,
give you a date on which you'regoing to do a frozen embryo
transfer.
Ann (24:28):
So it's within a regular cycle.
It's not something extendedBecause from what I've heard and
read, it's all the differentthings that they try to do.
Maybe that's more on theharvest end.
So it's within a regularmonthly cycle.
Jenn (24:44):
Right For the transfer.
Now, if you're harvesting, yeah, it does take a little bit
longer, but just transfers isvery simple, straightforward,
roughly, I would say, two weeks.
Maybe at most Some people mightbe longer, but for me it's been
roughly two weeks.
Ann (24:59):
And so now you have two babies, and what is the
narrative that you have createdfor your family?
Jenn (25:06):
The narrative I would say is I'm a mother trying to raise
two children who happens to justbe single.
That's what it is for me.
Ann (25:16):
And how will you?
What are you?
What thoughts have you hadabout teaching your children
about how they were created andabout your family, knowing that
there's traditional family outthere, the narrative that
they're going to be faced with,that they don't necessarily have
(25:37):
that same narrative.
What thoughts do you have abouthow you're going to approach
that?
Jenn (25:41):
Thoughts I thought about.
That is that there are multipletypes of families out there.
There are some that are justmothers, only fathers, only two
mothers, two fathers.
Different variations.
There are multiple families outthere, but no matter what
family there is out there, loveis love.
(26:02):
You know you're not going to beloved any less than anyone else
out there.
Ann (26:05):
Yep, and for me it was also very easy because I would just
say, well, this is our family.
Just the same way you don'thave a sister, you don't have a
brother, like our family is ourfamily and this is what we do
have.
I will just give a shout outsomeone else that I've been
trying from the beginning to sitfor an interview.
I love Todd Parr and his books,and we have many of them, and
(26:26):
the family book is one of myabsolute favorites.
It basically encapsulateseverything that you just said.
So if you, if you haven't foundhis, his books, If you haven't
found his books, that's one thatI would recommend.
So here's one that I you know alot of.
(26:47):
My focus is equity in the world.
As a Black woman, whatobstacles, prejudice,
stereotypes do you feel that youfaced in creating a family of
your own, or did you feel thatyou faced any of them?
Jenn (27:01):
I know about the stereotypes out there.
I really haven't faced any asof yet.
I would say I know theexistence is that, you know,
single Black female has children, things of that nature has
children, things of that nature,but a little different
narrative.
You know, we go about creatingour families differently.
(27:23):
So just being cognizant of thestereotypes out there and
explaining to those who just maynot know about what's actually
going on, yeah, that's.
Ann (27:37):
That's actually true.
There's an intentionality to it, right that you've thought it
through.
So who's your shero in thesingle mothers by choice world?
Do you have one?
Jenn (27:57):
when I was starting to go through the process, because you
always want to see someone thatlooks like you going through
the process, so you're not alone.
I mainly looked at a lot ofvideos from Tamika TTC and
simply Tanika.
Like every time they posted thevideo on YouTube I would sit
there and watch, because youknow they went there before you
(28:19):
and you see them going throughthe process, so you're not out
there feeling like you're aloneas well.
Ann (28:24):
Absolutely and very inspiring to see, see it all
transpire right.
It's like yes, yes, we will getthere.
And who has been your biggestsupport in this process?
Jenn (28:36):
Okay, my biggest support, like I say to my family, but
surprisingly, I would say, myyounger brother.
He's three and a half yearsyounger than me and when I told
him like hey, I'm going to gothrough this process, and once
he and it's constantly remindingme, you know you would think
that they're his kids, you knowhe questioned me like what are
(29:08):
they doing?
He sends them like educationalthings.
I'm very shocked, like verysurprised.
Ann (29:16):
He takes his job of being an uncle very seriously.
Yes, he does Were you all bestfriends before you started this
process.
Jenn (29:24):
We were close, but I think with the kids being here, we've
become even closer.
I think that's amazing.
Ann (29:31):
That's really good.
Okay, so you're a mom now, anda mom of two.
My goodness, that's a big one.
What is the biggest surpriseabout being a mom?
My goodness, that's a big one.
What?
Jenn (29:40):
is the biggest surprise about being a mom.
Biggest surprise, I would say,is I mean just learning from
them and watching them grow.
And you know, every mom saysthat you know but to to go from
zero children to two and youwatch them grow and learn every
(30:01):
day and all you can do is sitback and laugh and watch and
it's like just a few months agoit was just me and now I have
you guys to be considering andit's just amazing.
It really is.
Ann (30:15):
And they change so fast.
Jenn (30:18):
Like every single day they change.
Ann (30:21):
What's been your biggest struggle of being a new mom?
I know there are a lot, but ifyou think of like what you know
and it could change right,you're still early on.
But when you think about theselast four months, what's been
your biggest struggle?
Jenn (30:36):
I would say going back to work and trying to fit in your
work schedule with balancingwith being there for your
children.
You know, before I had thechildren, I could say that I
work, work, work.
Where do you find me at work,doing extra overtime, things of
that nature?
Now I'm like I have to, youknow, cut back on it so I make
(30:59):
sure I spend more time with them, because you know, when I go to
work I do miss them.
You know I find myself, youknow, calling them throughout my
work day like, hey, how are thebabies, what are they doing?
Can I FaceTime them?
Cause you know you miss them.
You go from, you know,maternity leave where you spend
like 24, seven with them to like, okay, I'm gone a big chunk of
(31:25):
the day and I kind of miss them.
Ann (31:26):
Yeah, yeah, no, I know, I, I, um, yeah, I.
My son was five and a halfmonths when I went back to work
and it was, I think, the bestfive and a half months of my
life.
And it's okay when they sleepso much.
I really struggled when he wasawake more, because then you're
like, okay, well, by the time Iget home he goes to sleep at six
o'clock, so I literally see mychild for this small period of
(31:50):
time.
So you try to eke in all ofthose joys and those struggles
and the weekends, right.
So when you reflect on theprocess of getting pregnant,
what differences do you noticeabout your feelings while in the
process versus looking back onthe process now that you have a
family?
And I want to give some contextfor me.
(32:14):
I, from the first time that Istarted trying to get pregnant
until I actually got pregnant.
It was only six months.
The roller coaster for mebecause I went through IUI.
The roller coaster for me.
I had two failed IUIs, a changein medicine.
But the third time I was a messon day three when I went to get
(32:37):
the examination and I wasdiagnosed with poor ovarian
reserve and I thought it wasover.
I was trying to donate my lastfile of sperm.
I was like, okay, now I go on acruise with my mother, I'll
adopt, I can get my finances inorder for another five or six
years.
And so for me there was a lot ofemotion that just it felt like
(33:00):
an eternity and that it wasnever going to happen.
Once I was pregnant and I knewthe pregnancy was going to hold.
When I looked back I was like,oh my gosh, it was only six
months.
It felt like it could have beensix decades.
When you look back, when youfinally were pregnant and you
knew like this is reallyhappening and four and a half
years is a long time and aglobal pandemic too how did it
(33:25):
feel when you looked back on it?
Did you feel like you werelosing?
Because I watched you and I wasjust like I wish I could tell
people like just don't give up,like keep going.
I know it seems hard.
How did it feel looking backversus the way you felt in the
moment?
Jenn (33:41):
Looking back, I would say once I got out of the first
trimester and I was able to lookback, like you stated, you know
, keep going, take time out ifyou need to grieve.
You know and I think that was apart of the big gaps why it
took me so long I think if Iwent head first into another
(34:03):
transfer right after a lossemotionally I probably would not
be ready.
That's one thing I will tellpeople.
You know, take the time out, dothe necessary work for you.
If that means, hey, you needtwo weeks out, two months or two
years, do that.
Those are the things that Ilook back and notice, because
(34:26):
with each transfer I had earlymiscarriages.
So with one of them that Iremember clearly, I went back to
work and I didn't do thenecessary work to deal with the
grief process.
I was fine as long as I wasgoing to doctor's appointments
trying to figure out what wasgoing on.
(34:47):
But once I got past that and Ihad to deal with emotions and
certain questions, I was a totalmess.
Like I went to work, someoneasked me what if you never had
children?
It's a simple question initself, but at that moment I
burst into tears because Ididn't do the necessary work
(35:10):
needed to deal with that.
I can say that now that's fine,but back then, no, I was not
ready to deal with that question.
So I would say, once you getpast the emotions behind it,
deal with whatever you need todeal with.
It's a great thing.
It's a wonderful thingPregnancy you get to see the
(35:32):
changes in your body.
It's great, it's beautiful.
But definitely do the necessarywork, because your emotions
will be on a roller coaster.
Ann (35:43):
Yeah, and the hormones don't help.
That you bring up a reallyimportant point because for me,
I I didn't deal with amiscarriage, mine was, I was
never getting pregnant.
I should have invested inpregnancy tests, for, for women
who do experience a miscarriage,it's, it's, it's a, it's a
(36:07):
terrible trick, right To sayhere you are, your body's doing
it, you you made it and thenit's not there.
So I just wanted to mark thatthat work to you know, again,
it's this journey.
It's easy once you're there togo.
Oh, yeah, sure, keep going.
Someone's listening and they'relike well, that's fine for you,
jen and Ann, because you nowhave kids.
(36:28):
There are folks out there whothey attempted it.
They had miscarriages or nevergot pregnant and they got to the
end of their finances.
However it is, we all have toknow what we have to try to
create a family in the way thatwe want before we go on to the
next plan.
But knowing that you're atdifferent kind of aspects of
(36:52):
biology, um, like I'll neverforget the the time that I got
pregnant, I had one, one egg,and I was like I'm doing this so
that I can say I did it, and mydoctor was like well, I hope
the sperm and the egg get along,but you know it only takes one
and it was my last attempt.
You know there's all thesethings that you have to
emotionally process what itmeans to you.
(37:13):
Some people it may not hit inthe same way, so I wanted to
mark that and thank you forbringing that up.
That we all have to process andthe hormones that we're dealing
with.
To that it's your journey andand we have to process joy and
grief and suffering, but wherethere's suffering there's joy to
(37:34):
come forward.
So thank you for sharing that.
Thank you for sharing that.
So I think my last question isand you've kind of touched on it
how do you balance your life?
Does the possibility of havinga partner around or having more
kids ever swim around in yourhead and do you think about how
(37:55):
this family that you've createdand knowing that you know you're
now responsible in all the waysfor it, how do you think about
moving forward, knowing you arestill a woman, you're not dead
on the inside.
You may or may not want abigger family.
Do you consider it?
What do you think?
What are your feelings and howdo you balance it all, knowing
(38:16):
that your plate's really fullright now, but that it's not
going to be like this forever.
Jenn (38:21):
Okay, when it comes to relationship, I keep hope alive
I'm not saying that just becauseI have children now that I
won't be in a relationship later.
So I do keep hope alive thatone day that I will be in a
relationship.
And if that does not happen,I'm fine as well.
I mean, I am still going to bemy happy-go-lucky self.
(38:44):
As far as children, I mean, Ican say right now, because my
hands are full, I'll say no,these are it.
But I do keep the possibilityalive that maybe I might have
more children in the future.
Ann (38:57):
Do you look at the way and where you are right now and
wonder if cause I circle back tothe beginning and and for
myself as well?
And I do.
I date and I go through phases.
I actually had dating coach andI've gotten to a point where I
realized dating is what's fun,whether you're with a in a
(39:17):
relationship or not.
It's about doing fun things inlife, enjoying life and getting
to know men or whoever it is youlike to date and to share those
experiences.
When you think about how you'vecreated your family, knowing
that, like me, you know it'sfunny, it's what you think you
want and I can't say that Ididn't want it.
(39:39):
But do you ever wonder if thisis the way it was always
supposed to be?
And it just took like you hadto get to the point that you got
here but that really this isthe way it was always supposed
to be and that you were workingagainst kind of a deep culture
of what you're supposed to do.
Jenn (39:59):
I do think sometimes I do think about that sometimes.
You know, was it alwayssupposed to be this way?
If I could have gotten out ofmy own way, so to speak, could I
have had children sooner, CouldI have been a little bit more
happier sooner in regards to theprocess, Possibly.
You know, sometimes we do relyon, or we do get caught up on,
(40:24):
things with society and otherthings demands, things with our
families.
So I mean, anything is possible.
Sometimes we just have to getout of our own way and do what
we feel will make us happy, orwhat's necessary to make us
happy.
Right.
Ann (40:43):
We have to ask ourselves what is it that the external is
trying to suggest or tell us todo?
But what is it I think that'sthe hardest part is really
centering and saying what do Iwant and what blocks am I
putting in front of me?
And sometimes it is that work ofimagining what your life will
(41:06):
be like, knowing that you'regoing to do something that is
unlike what's ever been done,and it takes a lot of courage.
And you've been courageous andyou have defined your own
narrative and it is unique toyou, although we have a
community of women and men whohave done this, and you, you
(41:27):
know you are a bold, brave and,I want to say, black woman,
because we need more people thatrepresent the variety of the
world that are doing this,because you can be from any race
, religion, culture I even willventure to say socioeconomic, if
you are mindful of it to definethe narrative of our family.
(41:50):
And so congratulations, jen.
Thank you for this interview,and we'll close it out by saying
what recommendations would yougive someone listening, who may
be at any stage of the process?
What recommendation would yougive to a woman who is in the
process of defining thenarrative of their family or man
(42:11):
?
Jenn (42:12):
yeah, um, what I would definitely suggest?
Um, knowing you and finding outwhat makes you happy and
blocking out all the other noisethat's around.
Once you get down to the nittygritty and knowing what makes
you happy, the process ofdecision should be fairly easy.
(42:34):
It's just blocking out all theother noise behind it.
Ann (42:38):
I could not agree more, jen .
Thank you so much.
Thank you, good luck with thebabies and just a shout out to
your mom who's taking care ofthem.
Speaker 2 (42:49):
Thank you for listening to this episode of
Define, the Narrative podcast.
We invite you to follow us onInstagram, Facebook and sign up
for our email list atdefinethenarrative.
us.
Until next time.
Ann (43:12):
This is Define the Narrative podcast with your host
, Ann Argo.
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