May 29, 2025 • 48 mins
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What does it take to scale from one dental practice to 23 while staying passionate about clinical work? Dr Phil Friel shares how a casual chat in a pub sparked a journey that grew into one of Scotland’s leading dental groups.
Alongside his brother Christopher, Phil focused on acquiring larger, established practices while keeping a family-run ethos that sets them apart from corporates. Their journey began with struggling clinics they renovated themselves, eventually progressing to seven-plus surgery sites.
Phil still works three 12-hour clinical days each week, with the rest spent supporting teams and driving growth. He reveals the systems that made this work, including executive assistance and diary zoning, and how these created a healthier work-life balance.
You’ll also hear about their £4 million investment in equipment across 130 chairs, their patient-first organisational structure, and why supporting over 230 team members motivates their continued expansion.
Whether you’re managing one practice or aiming for more, this episode is packed with real-world insights for building a thriving dental business without sacrificing clinical quality or personal freedom.
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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Phil (00:00):
A lot of principals out there find the time commitment
and financial commitment ofmanaging one practice a huge
burden never mind 23 and that'swhy I'm really excited to
welcome our guest today.
His name is Dr Phil Friel andhe has exactly that he's got 23
dental practices and stillmoving to acquire more.
(00:21):
Phil has obviously been on anamazing journey, lots of
learnings, lots of wisdom toshare, and that's why I'm really
looking forward to today'sepisode where we're going to get
into precisely all of thosethings.
I've been looking forward tothis podcast because not very
often I get to talk to someonewho's started from quite
(00:41):
literally zero dental practicesand went all the way up to 23
and soon to be 25.
It's certainly something thatis unprecedented on the Dentists
Who Invest podcast and there'sgoing to be so many learnings on
that journey, and that's whyI'm really excited to have Dr
Phil Fryle with me today.
Phil, I've done a little bit ofan intro for yourself before we
jumped on the air, but maybe itmight be nice to hear a little
(01:02):
bit more about you.
Dr James (01:08):
And then let's talk about this journey and all the
learnings that have come aboutbecause of it, absolutely, I
think.
Well, first and foremost, I'm adentist.
That's what I qualified, uh,and that's my passion.
I'm still working as a dentist,um, and around eight, nine
years ago, um, my brother and Istarted out on a journey to to
grow a group of dental practicesand, yeah, as you say, we've
gone from zero clinics right upto 23.
(01:32):
At the moment we're acquiring,continue to acquire, in Scotland
and, yeah, it's been a reallyexciting journey.
Dr Phil (01:39):
Great to be doing it with my brother, a family member
, and enjoying the growth, thejourney, uh, so far and looking
forward to what's to come hell,yeah, okay, well, listen, I find
it really fun with these sortsof podcasts to almost walk us,
to go on the journey togetherand maybe just start at the
start and talk about whatinspired us really to think.
(02:03):
Okay, actually, because mostdental dentists are happy with
one or maybe two, you know, onhow does that happen, how does
that evolution occur or whatneeded to be in place?
We'll cover all of that in justa second.
If we just go right back to thevery start, your first dental
practice circle, what era didyou acquire that?
Dr James (02:22):
first.
First, I think there's twoparts to the story Before the
main story, the prologue, if youlike.
I left university.
I've always been veryenthusiastic about anything that
I've been involved in Myselfand a friend and colleague from
university set up a clinic in2006, 2007, and then sold that
(02:45):
one to move around three yearslater.
Reason being it was slightlyoutwith Glasgow.
We were quite young, we werelooking, I suppose, to find out
our niches, which then turnedout to be the same niche, and
we've both progressed from there, which is great to see.
It's always great to catch upon the journeys that both of us
(03:08):
had.
So that was a real solidlearning.
To begin with, From there Imoved closer to home.
I was working for one of thebigger corporate groups at that
time and I suppose throughfrustration at not being able to
get what I wanted when I wantedit, and that's I don't mean
(03:32):
that in a selfish way, you know,but from the point of view of
the management of patients, therequirement for specific
equipment to make the patientjourney easier, the ability to
progress quickly and changequickly.
I wasn't feeling that and I veryquickly decided, between you
know, the kind of corporateaspect of dentistry and the NHS
(03:54):
that neither of those thingswere really what I saw myself as
a clinician.
So the opportunity came aroundand I grabbed it, you know, was
able to take over and buy abuilding in a very affluent area
of Glasgow.
Bizarrely, in a pub on a Fridayevening I was chatting to my
(04:16):
wife, who's also a dentist, andthe chat behind us overheard.
You know, as soon as we wereboth dentists we started
chatting to him.
He said I own a building that'sa dental clinic.
Where is that?
It was where I worked.
I'm looking to sell it, I'mlooking to buy it and we did the
deal on Monday.
No, way.
(04:36):
It was just I'd been kind oflucky.
I know some people say you makeyour own luck, but I think there
is an element of luck as well.
So that was a pub on a Fridaynight and I ended up with the
building that is really theheart of our dental group now,
which is Advanced Dentistry inHindland.
We're shortly going to expandthe size of that.
The building next door wepurchased again another
(04:59):
fortuitous meeting and purchaseof that.
So that's really how my journeystarted as a dentist, as a
practice owner, and that wasback in 2009.
So we set up Advanced Dentistryor I set up Advanced Dentistry
single surgery very quicklygoing to six surgeries, and it's
(05:20):
been operating as six surgeriesfor around 10 years.
Fast forward to 2016,.
My brother was a bond lawyer,is still a lawyer, but was a
bond lawyer in London sellingall manner of global businesses,
two of which were fairlywell-established corporate
(05:41):
dental brands, which were fairlywell established corporate
dental brands.
He was moving back after hiswedding, wanted to settle in
Scotland and that type of law,that type of banking law, just
doesn't exist in Scotland.
So, rather than commit to lifeand commuting, we came up with
the idea or probably he came upwith the idea of why don't we
(06:06):
grow a group of dental practiceas family-owned, as founded by
two brothers one will still workclinically as a dentist Just
almost assessing what woulddifferentiate us from a market
in terms of dental groups that,to be honest, we didn't really
know much about, groups that, tobe honest, we didn't really
(06:28):
know much about.
So, yeah, I think after theinitial, we can't do that.
That's not the type of thingthat two brothers from Basque
will do.
We then actually thought, well,why not?
I think if we're as committedas we are, as enthusiastic as we
are, then we'll give it ourbest shot and we'll do as good a
job as anyone.
So I think that stays with us,that drive, that ambition when
(06:50):
it is evenings, when it isweekends and as you grow the
group of practices to where weare just now, it's reflecting on
that journey.
Our first clinics were clinicswithout borrowing from the bank.
We wanted to do it ourselves.
So you buy struggling clinics,distressed sales, and that's
(07:16):
what we did for the first fiveor six painting the clinics
ourselves, decorating theclinics ourselves.
I'd much rather paint a walland spend the money on marketing
than a painter when you'resetting things up.
And that's good as in goodstead.
You know, and I think it'ssomething, knowing the
intricacies of every singleclinic we have is still
something I want to do and stillsomething that we do do because
(07:40):
it is important.
You know, very easy to belabelled with the C word in
dentistry.
You know, when you own a numberof clinics, you become a
corporate.
You know.
But the reality from our pointof view and I know that there
are others who work in the sameway you know that the corporate
entity is when the founders nolonger have a controlling
(08:01):
interest.
You know, we own the company.
So so we are the founders andwe have the controls.
So you know, and I myselfmeeting our dentists in
protected time every six months,traveling around the clinics,
being able to be involved instrategy, making the decisions
that we feel are best for theclinics, being able to change
that direction very quickly,interviewing every dentist,
(08:25):
visiting the teams evenings,weekends.
You know that that's what we do.
That's what we, uh, we enjoydoing.
Um, and yeah, that's how we'llcontinue and and you know what
it's it's.
Dr Phil (08:37):
It's interesting because one thing that struck me
whenever we had, whenever weinitially met, what was it?
A month, two months ago,something along those lines uh
was, you were telling me how andwe'll come into this and we'll
circle back to this and you knowin due course, of course,
throughout the, the, the, the,uh, the procession of this
podcast, uh, but you were,you're still in the clinic three
(08:58):
days a week, three long days aswell, and I mean, obviously
you've got a lot of dentists.
Let's say, uh, they get tomaybe four or five practices and
they start to step away fromthe clinic and what a lot of
them would say is where's thehours in the day?
But the truth is, you canalways conjure more time if you
delegate correctly, or at leastthat's my belief and philosophy.
(09:20):
So there's got to be someserious, you must have some
serious uh crack, uh practicemanagers or somebody helping you
out on that front in theresomewhere.
But we'll come on to that injust a second.
Uh, but yes, anyway, um, I likehow you've obviously still got
your sleeves rolled up andactually got involved in the
clinic from the point of view ofit's.
(09:41):
Yes, it's.
It's contributing towardsrunning the practice or, you
know, setting up the practice,but it's also getting to know
intimately each and every dentalpractice so that you have an
understanding of how they workand you know the layout of
practices and what have you.
I think that is reallyinteresting and also unique as
(10:01):
well, and it looks like it'sworked, which is cool.
I just want to.
If we just go back to thatjourney, uh, so let's, let's
just recap this 2016.
That was when you got yoursecond practice and then it's
basically been an average of anacquisition every six months
since then.
Have I got that right?
Dr James (10:17):
yeah, I've been, you know, um 20, 20 feet clinics
over over eight years, um, soit's maybe a little more uh that
.
But yeah, it's been arelatively slow journey.
You know we are relatively slowgrowing and I think not really
through choice initially, butagain, it's been a very
(10:40):
fortuitous outcome for us.
We were in a market in Scotland, as consolidation started, that
there were three or fourplayers who were far bigger than
us, with far more investmentbehind them, and we just didn't
stand a chance.
You know it was the offersgoing in.
(11:02):
You know we're working throughthe offer that we think we can
make, that we think the clinic'sworth.
I'm desperate to grow our sizeand not be at two clinics for a
year.
You want to be at three, four,five, six, seven.
It is a bit of a numbers gamethen, and that's natural, as any
business grows, as any businessprogresses.
(11:23):
But we lost out on a great manyclinics, um, and you know, while
that was a bit demotivating,demoralizing, we stuck to our
guns and eventually settled onthe fact that, um, there was a
there was a real opportunityrather than just buy what's
available and make it fit themodel, to actually look at what
(11:46):
is our model, how do we wantthat to work, and then looking
for clinics that fitted thatmodel or could be made to fit
that model more easily, ratherthan just shoehorning anything.
And that you know there's a lotof parameters in that, from
geographic to economical, to thefabric of the building, how the
clinic's been cared for overthe years.
(12:08):
You know, and you go from thepoint as I said earlier to you
know, buying and do it up if youlike.
You know a distressed clinic,one that's not really been for
whatever reason, given the, theinput that has been required to
allow it to fulfil its potentialand us being able to give that
(12:28):
in the early stages allows it tofulfil its potential the value
grows and you can then growfurther as a result of that.
Now it is more establishedclinics, it's larger clinics.
Our last three or four purchaseshave been minimum seven
surgeries.
Minimum seven surgeries in eachclinic, you know.
So seven, eight, nine and 10surgeries, so bigger beasts that
(12:53):
we can do more with, you know.
So our average number ofsurgeries per clinic is over
five.
That's pretty big.
Yeah, we're not lumbered.
I suppose is a fair term withthe kind of one surgery two,
surgery three surgery clinics.
Although you know, reviewing,looking back on things which we
(13:16):
regularly do, three surgeryclinics, potentially with a view
to expand, might well be one ofa number of sweet spots in any
kind, any growing group ofdental clinics well, you know
what one of the hardest thingsin business is to sit on your
hands sometimes and to be like,okay, cool, there's
opportunities out there, but dothey fit what we're trying to
(13:38):
achieve?
Dr Phil (13:38):
because there's that little part of your
entrepreneurial brain that justfeels like you want to be doing
something constantly.
But what I like to remindmyself is when I have that
little tug of war of energies inmy head, I'm like okay, James,
but it's actually less work foryou if you just sit around and
wait for a little while in thelong run, because the real
opportunities will come.
So I like to remind myself, ifmy goal is to get to where I
(14:00):
want to go in the most efficientmanner, actually sitting on
your hands is what you've got todo sometimes and you've got to
just fight against that littleurge to feel like you're
constantly doing something.
Dr James (14:09):
Anyway, your brother, you're so right, you're so right
.
I mean, we've caught on itbefore.
You know and I think you know.
Reflecting on my own journey aswe discussed, you know it is a
race for me.
Initially, I wanted 50 clinicsby the time I'm 50.
I've still got three years todo that, but that's no longer
the goal, you know, because thatresults in, you know, 50 being
(14:30):
the number, and you just need tobuy clinic after clinic after
clinic to reach your goal.
The reality is sitting on yourhands.
Um, you know you're not sittingdoing nothing, but you can
actually look at what you've gotand you know, is that
fulfilling its potential andactually focusing on what you've
got and doing that rather thanbringing more into the mix, can
be just as productive, just assuccessful and, if I'm honest
(14:53):
with you, a whole lot more costeffective, uh than, uh, simply
just buying practices.
Dr Phil (14:58):
You know so you're 100 right with that it's, it's, you
know, and I still, I still, uh,I've just, I've been through
that so many times where I'vetaken action and I've been like
man, if I would have just waited, this would have been easier.
You know, we've, we've kind ofall I learned.
We've all learned that the hardway, to a greater, lesser
degree, um, and entrepreneursare very prone to want to feel
(15:20):
busy all the time, but are theynecessarily being productive or
doing things in the mosteffective manner?
Not always so.
Because I've been through thatand done it wrong, I've kind of
realized now that actuallysometimes the best thing to do
is just to take these hands and,just, you know, sit on them.
As we were saying a second ago,you were talking about your
brother your brother has yourbrother's a lawyer, right?
He's a lawyer, yeah, yeah,right, interesting.
(15:41):
And then I think, uh, from ourconversation before he, your
brother had experience in buyingand selling dental practices
before you guys joined forces,right?
Dr James (16:06):
negotiations that he is involved in as our group
grows requires both.
But yeah, he was a bond lawyerin London.
So buying and sellingeverything from Jimmy Choo, ray
Ban, michael Jackson's estate,you name it.
You know some very interestingstories, but two of his big
transactions were dental groupssold to pension funds etc.
Dr Phil (16:25):
So he was involved in those transactions I'm so
curious to ask, curious to askobviously you're the dentist and
obviously have experience inrunning the practice, and then
your brother, you're, you're ateam, you're a duo, right, and
you've both perpetuated thisjourney of success.
How, what does your brotherbring to the table in terms like
what is the?
What is the, the key parameters, uh, that you guys use to be
(16:46):
able to identify, right?
Dr James (16:48):
this is a great opportunity you know, I think I
think I would summarize it bysaying there's so much involved
in it but the confidence to just, you know, speak your mind to
the fact, um, he's as investedin the growth, the stability,
the efficiency of the businessas I am, and you know it's gone
from.
You know I'm speaking todayfrom our head office in Glasgow.
(17:12):
It used to be around thekitchen table, you know, at our
parents' house eight years agobefore we had this facility.
But yeah, I mean I think justthat interaction before we had
this facility.
But yeah, I mean I think justthat interaction.
My side of it as a dentist, as aclinician, goes in one
direction.
His side, as co-owner of thebusiness, co-founder of the
(17:36):
business, the legal brain, goesin a similar direction, but they
are slightly different.
And I think when the two of themcome together, particularly
when it is, you know, siblings,um, trying to drive a business
forward, with both, uh, hands-oninvolved in the business, it
makes for a really good mix, youknow, and it's it's not
(17:56):
absolutely not that we agree oneverything.
You know, sometimes our bestprogress is when we actually
disagree, um, and you know, andthat's not uncommon, but
disagreeing but actuallyrespecting the input from each
side and the certain clinicsthat we've gone for or
directions that we've moved in,that have been, you know,
(18:20):
brought to the table byChristopher, brought to the
table by me, but just thatconfidence in interacting and
speaking your mind and, you know, being able to interact on a
daily basis, multiple timesevery day, and in addition to
that, you know, it's our headoffice.
That's probably one of thebiggest differentiators, you
(18:42):
know, between an owner-operatedclinic and a group of dental
clinics family-owned in our case, or a corporate entity.
You've got to have this headoffice facility, this head
office structure and I think,knowing when I'm in clinic, this
(19:04):
head office structure, and Ithink, knowing when I'm in
clinic, the other founder of thebusiness is in head office,
with individuals who we handpickfor the various roles there
that have the same ethos, thesame work ethic, the same belief
, you know, as as we do.
So it almost then becomes abigger family, you know, and
that sounds terribly tacky,corny and it's not meant to, but
(19:28):
it is.
You know, it's individuals whoare in there and all going in
the same direction, all with theconfidence to agree, to
disagree, to dispute, and youknow, knowing that we heard,
knowing that we listened to, toallow the progress, to allow us
to continue our rowing in thesame direction.
So, yeah, it's very good.
Dr Phil (19:48):
Awesome.
So that's the ins and outs ofthe little dynamic that you have
there, because you've obviouslycomplimented each other very
nicely to be able to achievethis.
And it was him coming on boardthat instigated everything, so I
achieve this.
And it was him coming on boardthat instigated everything, so I
knew that he must be bringingsomething to the table which
you've nicely articulated there.
I'm interested to know.
There's a there's a fact.
You know there's a lot ofdental practices, dentists and
principals out there and they'vegot one practice right and they
(20:11):
just can't physically get theirhead around what they need to
do in order to either free upthe cash flow or free up the
time to get to the next level.
Is that a phenomenon thatyou've encountered before, that
you've got a bit of awareness of?
Dr James (20:26):
Yeah, I think, both in general terms but also within
our group.
You know, I suppose it is amindset of business to some
degree, but self-employedbusiness, you know, where
dentists are self-employed,there is a tendency to want to
(20:46):
do everything that comes theirway themselves.
You know, and you know be that.
You know, one of my biggestbugbears is hygiene treatment.
You know, we have phenomenal Idon't mean we personally, but
the United Kingdom somephenomenal hygienists,
phenomenal therapists, each ofwhom have a specific treatment
(21:11):
provision that they are expertin.
So why should they not do thearea?
Why should they not do the area?
Why should they not take careof the treatments that they are
specifically trained in?
And in a lot of instances,dentists will want to do the
quick scaling to get the fee forthat, rather than actually put
(21:34):
it to a hygienist and focusthemselves on what they are more
expert in, more advancedtreatments, etc.
So, um, there is a lot of umthat I totally understand the
reasons for it, you know, and Ithink, um, often, when we are
discussing and embarking that,uh, embarking on that route with
, with some of the dentists,there is a um, a tendency to
(21:55):
kind of not really feel it'sgoing to work.
I suppose a fear of letting goof that fear, that treatment
type.
Dr Phil (22:04):
But very quickly you know when the diary is managed,
they have more time, they'reable to do more of the
treatments that they wish to do,then you know, everything
becomes clearer and they're ableto progress on that that way
and fulfill as much potential aseveryone else you know I'm I
(22:26):
wanted to ask that question toyou before I came on today, but
you've made me appreciate whythat was a good question to ask
from a whole other angle,because I was just thinking of
it from your perspective as inmaybe part of you felt that you
were unsure what to do to get tothat next level.
But if you think about it,there's this whole other
dimension to it, because youactually see these people day in
(22:46):
, day out.
You see these principles whenyou're acquiring your practice,
so you're able to see acrossdifferent practices, what you
feel will really help, and, asyou've articulated just then,
part of it is delegating thestuff, part of it isating the
stuff.
Part of it is how can I saythis?
Yeah, do, yeah, delegatingcertain treatments to people
that have probably have moreexpertise in us.
(23:07):
Let's be honest, because they'rethe hygienists and they do
those sorts of things all daylong, and us focusing on the
things that maybe, uh can behigher ticket uh is part of the
equation, uh, so that our timeis used more effectively.
And all of a sudden, you'vejust that maybe can be higher
ticket is part of the equation,so that our time is used more
effectively.
And all of a sudden, you'vejust unleashed this huge amount
of cash flow in your businessand you're probably working less
(23:27):
as well, which actually tiesinto the exact two things that I
was saying a second ago.
It's for me.
What I've come across is theyeither can't get their head
around how they can get theirbusiness to be profitable enough
to be able to have a spare cash, or they're just so busy doing
things that they're like how doI manage one clinic, never mind
frigging 23 or whatever you know?
Dr James (23:47):
I think you're right.
It's being caught in thatquamlar.
You know, and I think I knowwhat I need to do, but I'm too
busy to do it.
So when I get quieter I willaddress it.
But the reality is you willnever get quieter.
You know, and I think I think Iwas the worst at it.
You know I speak fromexperience and there is there is
almost a security in beingbooked for six weeks, for eight
(24:11):
weeks.
You know, I now see that as areal insecurity.
You know, if I'm booked thatfar ahead, you know, there is an
, there is something wrong.
You're unwell, you take a weekoff, patients are having to book
three months hence.
It's just not a great way to beworking.
I think more and more maybe itis me getting older, but looking
(24:35):
after number one, I can't seepatients if I'm not well.
I can't see patients if I'm notwell.
I can't see patients if I'm not100%.
I can't see patients if I'mstressed, I'm run down, I've got
too much on my plate, I don'thave help around me, and that
was a really, really difficultlesson for me to learn.
And I think back to as mybrother puts it you're going to
(24:59):
have to stop being clinicalunless you can become more
efficient.
So it was just constant it wasintense, it was non-stop.
You're not really at your bestwhen you don't have reflective
time and there's certain thingsthat I do now, certain things
that we do together.
We golf really badly, butregularly together.
(25:19):
The first nine holes isbusiness talk.
The second nine hole,absolutely no business.
It's he and I.
It's family.
How are his family wife, kidssame with me, our parents, our
brothers, our sisters?
Because that's something thatcan quite easily be forgotten.
It's important to really reapthe benefits of sibling
(25:43):
ownership in a business, butit's important not to forget
everything else that goes around, that you know.
The business is important, butit's not the be-all and end-all,
you know.
So I think, from that point ofview, my efficiency has been
really helped with.
You know, I was the last personwho I ever thought would have
an executive assistant, but it'schanged my life, literally
(26:06):
changed my life In terms ofsomeone who has access to emails
, manages diaries, tells me whatto do basically and when to do
it, says no to things that Iwould have said yes to.
And you've met Natalie, you'vediscussed Natalie.
In terms of setting up this,I'd still be trying to put this
(26:28):
together, trying to put thistogether, but that's all dealt
with.
You know, that's been reallyimportant.
In addition to that, workingwith two nurses at all times,
both phenomenal and reallyallowing their careers to
progress in terms of what theydo that I'm, then just dealing
(26:50):
with that.
You know me flapping about withemails.
Just the volume of emails issuffocating, or was suffocating.
You know I now finish my day.
I look at my pinned emails thatyou know, natalie has pinned.
(27:11):
I then look at my drafts thatshe has, you know, started.
I then just finish and that'smy two things I do my pinned
emails and my draft emails.
Then I got on to the moregeneral ones and that type of
thing.
You know, you actually, Isuppose, initially start to feel
a bit guilty when you'rethinking wait a minute, I might
(27:31):
be up to date.
I'm not going to be up to datefor 10 years, you know.
But you don't think thatbecause then another wave comes.
But at least you know you'vegot a bigger team around you, uh
, that can help and that canassist.
And actually, you know it'sback to the dentist, hygienist,
therapist model.
You know I've got individualswho are far better at
controlling diaries, uh,efficiencies, organizing what
(27:55):
needs to be prioritized, and youknow, know, prioritising that
saying no to things that I justwon't have time for, you know,
because you end up, I suppose,reputationally you say yes to
everything.
Great, great, Phil's going todo that, Phil's going to do it.
Phil never gets around to doingit, and that's the reality you
know.
So you end up, I suppose, beingthe guy who says yes but doesn't
complete, as opposed to now theguy who says yes but doesn't
(28:17):
complete, as opposed to now theguy who says yes and efficiently
completes, and that's beenreally good.
Dr Phil (28:27):
That was actually a big mental block for me because,
being from, I guess, middleclass Northern Ireland, if
someone would have said to me,yeah, you've got a virtual
assistant or an executiveassistant, I mean part of me
would have been like who do Ithink they are?
You know what?
I mean?
It's kind of it wasn'tsomething, I was just like to me
(28:49):
that was just not, you justhandled your own stuff.
That was how I thought, and I'mnot saying that's right, it's
just how I thought right.
But then the day that I waslike maybe I just need to get
over this and just have someonewho actually helps me do these
things, is that you just neverlook back, do you?
Because you're so much moreefficient, and here's the thing
you can focus on the big stuff.
Right, that's actually reallygoing to push things forwards
(29:10):
too.
So, yeah, completely on boardwith that and it is.
There's like life before andlife after.
That epiphany at least it wasfor me.
Anyway, it's on and this iswhat exactly, yeah this.
This is it right.
It's like a mindset thing asmuch as anything else, and it
actually leads me on to what Iwas going to say next.
This is obviously how you'vebeen able to still maintain
three days in the clinic, andthese are longer days as well 12
(29:32):
hours yeah, I'm generally.
Dr James (29:34):
I generally do eight to late um tuesday, wednesday,
thursday.
It's just a working week ofthree days.
You know that's good for me.
It works well.
I have the Mondays and Fridaysin and around our clinics
working, sometimes seeing casesin clinics where you know it is
(29:55):
a skill set or a specificimplant treatment type or soft
tissue graft surgical type workthat our dentists want me to
look at, or just meeting theteams, meeting the dentists,
seeing the clinics and thatworks really well.
Dr Phil (30:09):
It is under review.
Dr James (30:12):
you know the my main issue with in terms of
efficiency if I'm in head office, so to speak, or in and around
the clinics on a monday, there'salways items that hang over
onto the tuesday and similarlyon the friday when I'm back out
uh, in clinics and head officethe tuesday, wednesday, thursday
, clinical, there's sometimeslittle hangovers from from that
(30:33):
as well that need dealt with.
So I had toy with the idea ofgoing three weeks clinical, one
week non-clinical and again,like all these processes, I
don't know what's right, I don'tknow what will work, what won't
work.
Dr Phil (30:47):
But the one way to find out is to try it and see audit
it and see what works.
Dr James (30:53):
Same as diary zoning, why we zone the diaries?
Again, I thought I was the lastperson to zone my diary but my
diary is zoned and it's strippedand we can't really mess with
that, otherwise it knocks ontoeverything else.
So I think just that level oforganisation that we can really
borrow from other industries interms of that set up and how it
(31:20):
works.
From a patient's point of viewit allows them to access me more
readily rather than me.
Just.
You know my working schedule,my working life being dictated
by you, know who calls, whenthey call, what the issue is and
how persuasive they are on thetelephone.
You know you end up with a backto back, no time to breathe, no
(31:41):
time to reflect, no time toconsider various different
treatment plans.
You know it's all in a bitrushed, which is no good for
anyone.
So we're well out of that,thankfully.
Dr Phil (31:56):
Hey, good stuff.
And I mean, yeah, it's.
This is the thing, because pasta certain point, time becomes a
bottleneck and you're just toospent to be the best version of
yourself.
So unless you want to spendyour whole life being in that
zone which is horrible and nofun then we kind of almost have
to get over these little mentalobstacles and learn these things
.
And, as you were saying asecond ago, past a certain
(32:18):
certain point, you know there isno, there's no textbook and how
it's done.
You kind of just have to do itand see if it works for you and
then, if it doesn't, well, youcan always just roll back or mix
things up again.
There's, I think.
People sometimes think there'sa science to it, and there is,
but a lot of it is just trialand error and seeing what's
working.
The point is that at leastyou're trying to make some
(32:38):
progress rather than juststaying where you are in that
zone of just being so busy andspent all the time.
Anyway, I've been through it's.
I think every business owner'sjust been been through a similar
journey and had theseepiphanies at some stage.
One thing I wanted to askobviously you're in the clinic
three days a week, and thenthere's the other four days a
week, right, and there's justnot going to be enough bandwidth
.
I'm sure you go for whole weeksand you don't even think about
(33:01):
certain clinics, right, justbecause it's a bandwidth thing.
You know, we're only humans.
There's only so many hours in aday, there's only so much brain
space.
How is that structured, as in,how are those practice
structured in terms of whomanages what?
Is there a pm in every practiceor is there, like an area
manager?
I'm interested to to know.
Dr James (33:17):
So, again, just like any process, it's a process that
we're just in the process ofreviewing and changing.
At the moment I move towards aPM in every practice, you know,
depending on the size of thepractice.
Again, a fee surgery clinicversus a team surgery clinic.
It is a different structurethere.
(33:38):
It may be an operationalsupervisor in the clinic versus
a PM and then a couple ofregional individuals who oversee
those areas.
But in terms of actually themanagement of that and the time
for that, one of the things thatI really focus on and really
(33:59):
appreciate the benefit of teamfocus on is strategy Actually
discussing where do we want toget to and how do we want to get
there, and that overalldirection in whatever aspect and
they are many and varied ifeveryone is on the same mindset,
(34:20):
then that rollout among alarger number of clinics from an
agreed strategy is far moresuccessful.
Dr Phil (34:30):
Amazing.
So KPIs, I'm going to guess,are part of that.
Dr James (34:35):
KPIs yeah, in terms of treatment types white space,
hourly rate, agency usage fornurses, staff absence for nurses
, absence in general, where,again, it's not me as a
clinician but led by my brotherwe know we have 130 chairs in
(35:05):
our estate.
How old is each chair?
The benefit of things likePower BI?
That we know exactly.
We had a conversation yesterdayabout a chair needing repair
and you've got the informationat your fingertips.
That's £2,500 spent on it over12 visits in the last 12 months.
So they're coming out, you know, every month to repair that
(35:30):
chair.
How old is the chair?
17 years old, it's done, youknow.
So there is then a drive,proactive drive, rather than
repair, repair, repair.
You know, it's not just therepair, it's the downtime, it's
the inconvenience, the patientswhen the surgery is done, but
just driving.
You know 135 chairs with anaverage age of eight and a half
(35:51):
years.
How do we get that further down?
You know.
So that is.
It is a real benefit when weknow our oldest chair is 13
years, 12 years, 11 years, 10years, and you're proactively
replacing these chairs ratherthan just waiting until
something goes wrong.
(36:11):
I think back to one of myreasons for doing what I do and,
as the group knows, ourdentists know that I say all the
time I should be happy to workin any of our surgeries and that
is a pretty big statement whenyou've got 23 clinics, 130 odd
(36:33):
surgeries.
But in the last two years alonewe're around £4 million
reinvestment, both inrejuvenating, improving,
modernising, replacing equipment, improving equipment, improving
the number of digital scanners7 CT scanners that we invested
(36:58):
to make these clinics as good asthey possibly can be, I think
is a big commitment, both interms of time organisation but
financially as well, but it'svitally important.
Ultimately.
That factors down from dentiststo team members, to the
patients under our care, whichis ultimately the most important
(37:18):
thing.
Dr Phil (37:20):
And yeah, you know the number of times I've heard uh
people who've had uh multiplepractices emphasize how
important it is to have gooddata.
Well, it's, it's.
It's essential, because thenyou can just make these
decisions.
Otherwise, you're just makingit out of emotion and, you know,
maybe licking a finger andsticking it in the air.
How did you the list of kpisthat you have?
Is there like a big book ofkpis somewhere, or were these
(37:42):
just things that you justgradually added to a list with
time and you thought, hey, thiswould be good to measure, or
this would be good to measure,or something like that?
Dr James (37:49):
there are, I suppose, some some basics.
You know that.
You know, um, if people, ifdentists, are not there, or if
you're short of dentists, or ifstaff are not there, staff are
unwell, you can't see thepatients, the patients can't
have treatment.
There's no income from practice.
All of you know if there's alot of white space in the book,
(38:11):
but it's then reviewing andauditing the processes that
affect each and every one ofthese.
You know.
So, in terms of staffremuneration really important,
that team members are vital.
They've got to have a structurethat they know I can get from
here to there.
I can see the progression overthe years with the experience
(38:31):
that I build up, with otheradditional skills that I acquire
and that I'm taught, and wefund our nursing teams through
that.
You know they're more motivated, they want to do more.
It builds up what the cliniccan offer in these individual
areas across the country.
So all of the and there's manyand varied parameters in terms
(38:56):
of KPIs and what a KPI is in aspecific clinic at a specific
moment in time.
So all of that is a mix, but,yeah, you know, it allows you to
move in the direction that youwant to move in and I think the
important aspect of that is thecommunication of that.
You know, because we're in amarket at the moment where
(39:18):
dentist percentages, for example, at 50 percent across the board
, you know, and rightly andrightly so, we want teams who
are trained, who are well paid,who are well qualified yes, I
mean, and the kpis will vary andchange from time to time
depending on a specific clinic,specific clinician requirements,
(39:41):
the geography, etc.
And it's important that we areon top of them to make sure that
we are driving specific areasof the business in the way we
want to do that you know?
Dr Phil (40:00):
one thing I was really curious about, because I've
heard a lot of principals saythis who get to the maybe five,
six, seven dental practice mark.
They say that the banks stopgiving you funding because they
see you as too risky.
They don't want to put alltheir eggs in one basket.
Is that something you've heard?
And also, number two how didyou negotiate that or how did
you, yeah, how did you navigatethat whenever you hit that level
?
Dr James (40:20):
So, I think it's about having the right knowledge and
the right support.
You know, from a financialpoint of view, we've certainly
had no real resistance in termsof funding.
You know, I think it is verymuch.
I don't know whether that's aScotland thing versus UK-wide,
(40:47):
but it is a green sector, asthey say.
You know is where it needs tobe in terms of the parameters
that are set.
Then you know, we've not hadany issues from that point of
view.
Perhaps you know, as I mentionedback at the start of the
(41:08):
podcast, we have been relativelyslow growing, despite our best
intentions at the start.
For me to get to 50 points witha turn of 50, we may still do
that.
I've got a couple of years togo, but you know, it may be that
that has something to do withit.
But certainly the financialcontrol, it's imperative.
I suppose that is the only areathat I would say we are truly
(41:33):
corporate and I think for goodreason.
The financial control, theefficiency of that, the
corporate infrastructure, isvital to protect what we want to
do and the individuality wewant to do it with from the
growth and clinical and businessprogression point of view.
Dr Phil (41:52):
Interesting.
There we go.
So that's maybe it's an Englishthing, you know.
Come to think of it, becauseit's something I've heard
principals say before.
Perhaps there's more to it, asyou were saying a second ago, or
yeah, this is an interestingone.
Yeah, that is an interestingone.
I'm interested to know oneother thing what is the?
(42:16):
What's the why, what's theoverall mission, like the
objective, what keeps you goingwhen things get really tough and
keeps you pushing forwards?
Because a lot of people, whenthey get to a certain number of
practices, they start to kickback and they start to relax.
I'm just interested what givesyou that fire, so to speak?
Dr James (42:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think, all manner of aspects of it.
You know, I think the pride ingrowing a business that
continues to grow, thatcontinues to improve, is one
thing.
You know, the determination tosucceed, you know so very often,
(42:57):
and I think it is a mindsetthat people will come with
problems, but certainly oursenior leadership team and and
that that filters down to othersdon't come with problems, come
with solutions.
You know, and it's a realpleasure dealing with
individuals who you know thishas happened, that's happened,
here's what I'm going to do andhere's why I'm going to do it.
You know, and we certainly tryto culture a belief in all of
(43:22):
our team members that you know,if decisions are made on the
spot, with the best of intention, perfect, you know it might not
be the right decision but ifit's been thought through and
processed, you know, with alogical progression, then
absolutely fantastic.
And I think that being able tosee that in the progress of
(43:42):
individuals, you knowparticularly some of the the
longest standing members ofstaff, you know who've been with
you 10 years and just worked upto to different levels.
You know dental nurses who nowhave a role in management and
you're thinking, oh my God, howare you performing?
(44:04):
I would never have thought that.
Remember we met all those yearsago.
You were a trainee.
You were occasionally off on aMonday if it was a wild weekend
and these individuals areactually now feeding into those
figures which allow us to makedecisions.
And these individuals areactually now feeding into those
figures which allow us to makedecisions.
(44:25):
And you just have a belief inindividuals and you know how
they are excelling, how they are, you know just performing, how
they're integrated and involvedin the business and that's a
real pleasure and I think it'sthat aspect of things, from a
business side of things, that isa real driver.
I think obviously the familyside of things working with my
brother is great, you know, andthe wider family in head office,
(44:49):
but I think first and foremost,you know, I'm a dentist.
As I said at the very start,that's what I qualified in being
able to know how many patientsare responsible for us.
I think sorry how many patientswe are responsible for is the
biggest driver, you know,because it is from our head
(45:10):
office point of view.
It's very much an invertedpyramid structure.
The patients are at the top ofthat, you know.
That is why we have thebusiness.
In order to deliver what weneed to care for those patients,
we need clinical support teams,and everything else that's
(45:30):
right down to the cleaner is asimportant in that, because we
want clean clinics that arewelcoming, that have the right,
that are welcoming, that havethe right ambience, that have
the right smell.
These guys are in the sixo'clock in the morning every
single morning to make it.
So, you know, but I think Ithink the biggest driver with
all of that is the number ofpeople that we are responsible
(45:52):
for and who rely on thedecisions that we make, you know
, and that is not only our 230nurses, but their partners,
their families, etc.
You know, it's the dentist,their partners, their families,
their ambition.
You know, ultimately that sitswith Christopher and I.
We are at the very bottom of thepyramid, being squished by
(46:13):
everything above, you know, andthat sense of responsibility
excites me, it's what drives me,it's why I work every day of
the week, even when I'm onholiday.
People say I take my laptopwhere I go.
I suppose it's the mindset ofthe entrepreneur, of the
business owner.
I'm sure you're exactly thesame.
(46:34):
It gives me great pleasure tospend two hours in a beachside
cafe getting caught up with myemails.
I can do that.
I couldn't have done that 20years ago when I started out,
but I can do that now and it'sback to that responsibility.
The fact that I'm on holidayshould not make a difference to
those who rely on my input whenI'm gone.
(46:55):
But similarly, the flip side ofthat back to the efficiency
that you spoke about and thesupport that I have being an
entrepreneur and business ownershouldn't affect my family.
I should still be there, Ishould still be present.
I take every school holiday off,apart from the summer.
I'm not quite there with theseven weeks off at the summer,
(47:15):
but I will get there, I know Iwill get there, and I think the
family aspect of it is vitallyimportant as well, and it's all
of that in the mix.
It's not an easy balance and Ido drop some plates from time to
time.
I get that, but as time goes Iprobably spend more time with
family.
I do actually get the parents'nights now that I never before I
(47:39):
get to school performances thatI never before.
I watch a lot of rugby, etcetera, and I'm as involved in
that as I need to be and Ishould be, which is great.
So that was a very long answerto a simple question.
Dr Phil (47:54):
It was a perfect answer and thank you and something so
useful one.
One big illusion I had about theworld of business before I ran
my own businesses was that youhave to be it has to be 18 hours
a day, every day.
It really doesn't pass acertain point you're leveraged
and you actually have more freetime.
Generally, there's a lot ofeffort at the very start to get
(48:15):
things up and running.
You front load it almost, butthen you build your own schedule
and you have more free time,and that is the thing that I
love so much and I'll happily doseven days a week if I have to
do a little bit here and there,to be able to have my own
schedule, and it sounds like youhave benefited from that as
well and it means you can bethere for the family, you can
move things around, go to theschool recitals, all of that
cool stuff, and that's why I getreally excited when we talk
(48:36):
about business and we do thesesorts of podcasts.
So thank you for sharing yourtime, wisdom and knowledge, Phil
.
I'm already looking forward tothe next episode.
You're very welcome.
A lot of principals out there find the time commitment
and financial commitment ofmanaging one practice a huge
burden never mind 23 and that'swhy I'm really excited to
welcome our guest today.
His name is Dr Phil Friel andhe has exactly that he's got 23
dental practices and stillmoving to acquire more.
(00:21):
Phil has obviously been on anamazing journey, lots of
learnings, lots of wisdom toshare, and that's why I'm really
looking forward to today'sepisode where we're going to get
into precisely all of thosethings.
I've been looking forward tothis podcast because not very
often I get to talk to someonewho's started from quite
(00:41):
literally zero dental practicesand went all the way up to 23
and soon to be 25.
It's certainly something thatis unprecedented on the Dentists
Who Invest podcast and there'sgoing to be so many learnings on
that journey, and that's whyI'm really excited to have Dr
Phil Fryle with me today.
Phil, I've done a little bit ofan intro for yourself before we
jumped on the air, but maybe itmight be nice to hear a little
(01:02):
bit more about you.
Dr James (01:08):
And then let's talk about this journey and all the
learnings that have come aboutbecause of it, absolutely, I
think.
Well, first and foremost, I'm adentist.
That's what I qualified, uh,and that's my passion.
I'm still working as a dentist,um, and around eight, nine
years ago, um, my brother and Istarted out on a journey to to
grow a group of dental practicesand, yeah, as you say, we've
gone from zero clinics right upto 23.
(01:32):
At the moment we're acquiring,continue to acquire, in Scotland
and, yeah, it's been a reallyexciting journey.
Dr Phil (01:39):
Great to be doing it with my brother, a family member
, and enjoying the growth, thejourney, uh, so far and looking
forward to what's to come hell,yeah, okay, well, listen, I find
it really fun with these sortsof podcasts to almost walk us,
to go on the journey togetherand maybe just start at the
start and talk about whatinspired us really to think.
(02:03):
Okay, actually, because mostdental dentists are happy with
one or maybe two, you know, onhow does that happen, how does
that evolution occur or whatneeded to be in place?
We'll cover all of that in justa second.
If we just go right back to thevery start, your first dental
practice circle, what era didyou acquire that?
Dr James (02:22):
first.
First, I think there's twoparts to the story Before the
main story, the prologue, if youlike.
I left university.
I've always been veryenthusiastic about anything that
I've been involved in Myselfand a friend and colleague from
university set up a clinic in2006, 2007, and then sold that
(02:45):
one to move around three yearslater.
Reason being it was slightlyoutwith Glasgow.
We were quite young, we werelooking, I suppose, to find out
our niches, which then turnedout to be the same niche, and
we've both progressed from there, which is great to see.
It's always great to catch upon the journeys that both of us
(03:08):
had.
So that was a real solidlearning.
To begin with, From there Imoved closer to home.
I was working for one of thebigger corporate groups at that
time and I suppose throughfrustration at not being able to
get what I wanted when I wantedit, and that's I don't mean
(03:32):
that in a selfish way, you know,but from the point of view of
the management of patients, therequirement for specific
equipment to make the patientjourney easier, the ability to
progress quickly and changequickly.
I wasn't feeling that and I veryquickly decided, between you
know, the kind of corporateaspect of dentistry and the NHS
(03:54):
that neither of those thingswere really what I saw myself as
a clinician.
So the opportunity came aroundand I grabbed it, you know, was
able to take over and buy abuilding in a very affluent area
of Glasgow.
Bizarrely, in a pub on a Fridayevening I was chatting to my
(04:16):
wife, who's also a dentist, andthe chat behind us overheard.
You know, as soon as we wereboth dentists we started
chatting to him.
He said I own a building that'sa dental clinic.
Where is that?
It was where I worked.
I'm looking to sell it, I'mlooking to buy it and we did the
deal on Monday.
No, way.
(04:36):
It was just I'd been kind oflucky.
I know some people say you makeyour own luck, but I think there
is an element of luck as well.
So that was a pub on a Fridaynight and I ended up with the
building that is really theheart of our dental group now,
which is Advanced Dentistry inHindland.
We're shortly going to expandthe size of that.
The building next door wepurchased again another
(04:59):
fortuitous meeting and purchaseof that.
So that's really how my journeystarted as a dentist, as a
practice owner, and that wasback in 2009.
So we set up Advanced Dentistryor I set up Advanced Dentistry
single surgery very quicklygoing to six surgeries, and it's
(05:20):
been operating as six surgeriesfor around 10 years.
Fast forward to 2016,.
My brother was a bond lawyer,is still a lawyer, but was a
bond lawyer in London sellingall manner of global businesses,
two of which were fairlywell-established corporate
(05:41):
dental brands, which were fairlywell established corporate
dental brands.
He was moving back after hiswedding, wanted to settle in
Scotland and that type of law,that type of banking law, just
doesn't exist in Scotland.
So, rather than commit to lifeand commuting, we came up with
the idea or probably he came upwith the idea of why don't we
(06:06):
grow a group of dental practiceas family-owned, as founded by
two brothers one will still workclinically as a dentist Just
almost assessing what woulddifferentiate us from a market
in terms of dental groups that,to be honest, we didn't really
know much about, groups that, tobe honest, we didn't really
(06:28):
know much about.
So, yeah, I think after theinitial, we can't do that.
That's not the type of thingthat two brothers from Basque
will do.
We then actually thought, well,why not?
I think if we're as committedas we are, as enthusiastic as we
are, then we'll give it ourbest shot and we'll do as good a
job as anyone.
So I think that stays with us,that drive, that ambition when
(06:50):
it is evenings, when it isweekends and as you grow the
group of practices to where weare just now, it's reflecting on
that journey.
Our first clinics were clinicswithout borrowing from the bank.
We wanted to do it ourselves.
So you buy struggling clinics,distressed sales, and that's
(07:16):
what we did for the first fiveor six painting the clinics
ourselves, decorating theclinics ourselves.
I'd much rather paint a walland spend the money on marketing
than a painter when you'resetting things up.
And that's good as in goodstead.
You know, and I think it'ssomething, knowing the
intricacies of every singleclinic we have is still
something I want to do and stillsomething that we do do because
(07:40):
it is important.
You know, very easy to belabelled with the C word in
dentistry.
You know, when you own a numberof clinics, you become a
corporate.
You know.
But the reality from our pointof view and I know that there
are others who work in the sameway you know that the corporate
entity is when the founders nolonger have a controlling
(08:01):
interest.
You know, we own the company.
So so we are the founders andwe have the controls.
So you know, and I myselfmeeting our dentists in
protected time every six months,traveling around the clinics,
being able to be involved instrategy, making the decisions
that we feel are best for theclinics, being able to change
that direction very quickly,interviewing every dentist,
(08:25):
visiting the teams evenings,weekends.
You know that that's what we do.
That's what we, uh, we enjoydoing.
Um, and yeah, that's how we'llcontinue and and you know what
it's it's.
Dr Phil (08:37):
It's interesting because one thing that struck me
whenever we had, whenever weinitially met, what was it?
A month, two months ago,something along those lines uh
was, you were telling me how andwe'll come into this and we'll
circle back to this and you knowin due course, of course,
throughout the, the, the, the,uh, the procession of this
podcast, uh, but you were,you're still in the clinic three
(08:58):
days a week, three long days aswell, and I mean, obviously
you've got a lot of dentists.
Let's say, uh, they get tomaybe four or five practices and
they start to step away fromthe clinic and what a lot of
them would say is where's thehours in the day?
But the truth is, you canalways conjure more time if you
delegate correctly, or at leastthat's my belief and philosophy.
(09:20):
So there's got to be someserious, you must have some
serious uh crack, uh practicemanagers or somebody helping you
out on that front in theresomewhere.
But we'll come on to that injust a second.
Uh, but yes, anyway, um, I likehow you've obviously still got
your sleeves rolled up andactually got involved in the
clinic from the point of view ofit's.
(09:41):
Yes, it's.
It's contributing towardsrunning the practice or, you
know, setting up the practice,but it's also getting to know
intimately each and every dentalpractice so that you have an
understanding of how they workand you know the layout of
practices and what have you.
I think that is reallyinteresting and also unique as
(10:01):
well, and it looks like it'sworked, which is cool.
I just want to.
If we just go back to thatjourney, uh, so let's, let's
just recap this 2016.
That was when you got yoursecond practice and then it's
basically been an average of anacquisition every six months
since then.
Have I got that right?
Dr James (10:17):
yeah, I've been, you know, um 20, 20 feet clinics
over over eight years, um, soit's maybe a little more uh that
.
But yeah, it's been arelatively slow journey.
You know we are relatively slowgrowing and I think not really
through choice initially, butagain, it's been a very
(10:40):
fortuitous outcome for us.
We were in a market in Scotland, as consolidation started, that
there were three or fourplayers who were far bigger than
us, with far more investmentbehind them, and we just didn't
stand a chance.
You know it was the offersgoing in.
(11:02):
You know we're working throughthe offer that we think we can
make, that we think the clinic'sworth.
I'm desperate to grow our sizeand not be at two clinics for a
year.
You want to be at three, four,five, six, seven.
It is a bit of a numbers gamethen, and that's natural, as any
business grows, as any businessprogresses.
(11:23):
But we lost out on a great manyclinics, um, and you know, while
that was a bit demotivating,demoralizing, we stuck to our
guns and eventually settled onthe fact that, um, there was a
there was a real opportunityrather than just buy what's
available and make it fit themodel, to actually look at what
(11:46):
is our model, how do we wantthat to work, and then looking
for clinics that fitted thatmodel or could be made to fit
that model more easily, ratherthan just shoehorning anything.
And that you know there's a lotof parameters in that, from
geographic to economical, to thefabric of the building, how the
clinic's been cared for overthe years.
(12:08):
You know, and you go from thepoint as I said earlier to you
know, buying and do it up if youlike.
You know a distressed clinic,one that's not really been for
whatever reason, given the, theinput that has been required to
allow it to fulfil its potentialand us being able to give that
(12:28):
in the early stages allows it tofulfil its potential the value
grows and you can then growfurther as a result of that.
Now it is more establishedclinics, it's larger clinics.
Our last three or four purchaseshave been minimum seven
surgeries.
Minimum seven surgeries in eachclinic, you know.
So seven, eight, nine and 10surgeries, so bigger beasts that
(12:53):
we can do more with, you know.
So our average number ofsurgeries per clinic is over
five.
That's pretty big.
Yeah, we're not lumbered.
I suppose is a fair term withthe kind of one surgery two,
surgery three surgery clinics.
Although you know, reviewing,looking back on things which we
(13:16):
regularly do, three surgeryclinics, potentially with a view
to expand, might well be one ofa number of sweet spots in any
kind, any growing group ofdental clinics well, you know
what one of the hardest thingsin business is to sit on your
hands sometimes and to be like,okay, cool, there's
opportunities out there, but dothey fit what we're trying to
(13:38):
achieve?
Dr Phil (13:38):
because there's that little part of your
entrepreneurial brain that justfeels like you want to be doing
something constantly.
But what I like to remindmyself is when I have that
little tug of war of energies inmy head, I'm like okay, James,
but it's actually less work foryou if you just sit around and
wait for a little while in thelong run, because the real
opportunities will come.
So I like to remind myself, ifmy goal is to get to where I
(14:00):
want to go in the most efficientmanner, actually sitting on
your hands is what you've got todo sometimes and you've got to
just fight against that littleurge to feel like you're
constantly doing something.
Dr James (14:09):
Anyway, your brother, you're so right, you're so right
.
I mean, we've caught on itbefore.
You know and I think you know.
Reflecting on my own journey aswe discussed, you know it is a
race for me.
Initially, I wanted 50 clinicsby the time I'm 50.
I've still got three years todo that, but that's no longer
the goal, you know, because thatresults in, you know, 50 being
(14:30):
the number, and you just need tobuy clinic after clinic after
clinic to reach your goal.
The reality is sitting on yourhands.
Um, you know you're not sittingdoing nothing, but you can
actually look at what you've gotand you know, is that
fulfilling its potential andactually focusing on what you've
got and doing that rather thanbringing more into the mix, can
be just as productive, just assuccessful and, if I'm honest
(14:53):
with you, a whole lot more costeffective, uh than, uh, simply
just buying practices.
Dr Phil (14:58):
You know so you're 100 right with that it's, it's, you
know, and I still, I still, uh,I've just, I've been through
that so many times where I'vetaken action and I've been like
man, if I would have just waited, this would have been easier.
You know, we've, we've kind ofall I learned.
We've all learned that the hardway, to a greater, lesser
degree, um, and entrepreneursare very prone to want to feel
(15:20):
busy all the time, but are theynecessarily being productive or
doing things in the mosteffective manner?
Not always so.
Because I've been through thatand done it wrong, I've kind of
realized now that actuallysometimes the best thing to do
is just to take these hands and,just, you know, sit on them.
As we were saying a second ago,you were talking about your
brother your brother has yourbrother's a lawyer, right?
He's a lawyer, yeah, yeah,right, interesting.
(15:41):
And then I think, uh, from ourconversation before he, your
brother had experience in buyingand selling dental practices
before you guys joined forces,right?
Dr James (16:06):
negotiations that he is involved in as our group
grows requires both.
But yeah, he was a bond lawyerin London.
So buying and sellingeverything from Jimmy Choo, ray
Ban, michael Jackson's estate,you name it.
You know some very interestingstories, but two of his big
transactions were dental groupssold to pension funds etc.
Dr Phil (16:25):
So he was involved in those transactions I'm so
curious to ask, curious to askobviously you're the dentist and
obviously have experience inrunning the practice, and then
your brother, you're, you're ateam, you're a duo, right, and
you've both perpetuated thisjourney of success.
How, what does your brotherbring to the table in terms like
what is the?
What is the, the key parameters, uh, that you guys use to be
(16:46):
able to identify, right?
Dr James (16:48):
this is a great opportunity you know, I think I
think I would summarize it bysaying there's so much involved
in it but the confidence to just, you know, speak your mind to
the fact, um, he's as investedin the growth, the stability,
the efficiency of the businessas I am, and you know it's gone
from.
You know I'm speaking todayfrom our head office in Glasgow.
(17:12):
It used to be around thekitchen table, you know, at our
parents' house eight years agobefore we had this facility.
But yeah, I mean I think justthat interaction before we had
this facility.
But yeah, I mean I think justthat interaction.
My side of it as a dentist, as aclinician, goes in one
direction.
His side, as co-owner of thebusiness, co-founder of the
(17:36):
business, the legal brain, goesin a similar direction, but they
are slightly different.
And I think when the two of themcome together, particularly
when it is, you know, siblings,um, trying to drive a business
forward, with both, uh, hands-oninvolved in the business, it
makes for a really good mix, youknow, and it's it's not
(17:56):
absolutely not that we agree oneverything.
You know, sometimes our bestprogress is when we actually
disagree, um, and you know, andthat's not uncommon, but
disagreeing but actuallyrespecting the input from each
side and the certain clinicsthat we've gone for or
directions that we've moved in,that have been, you know,
(18:20):
brought to the table byChristopher, brought to the
table by me, but just thatconfidence in interacting and
speaking your mind and, you know, being able to interact on a
daily basis, multiple timesevery day, and in addition to
that, you know, it's our headoffice.
That's probably one of thebiggest differentiators, you
(18:42):
know, between an owner-operatedclinic and a group of dental
clinics family-owned in our case, or a corporate entity.
You've got to have this headoffice facility, this head
office structure and I think,knowing when I'm in clinic, this
(19:04):
head office structure, and Ithink, knowing when I'm in
clinic, the other founder of thebusiness is in head office,
with individuals who we handpickfor the various roles there
that have the same ethos, thesame work ethic, the same belief
, you know, as as we do.
So it almost then becomes abigger family, you know, and
that sounds terribly tacky,corny and it's not meant to, but
(19:28):
it is.
You know, it's individuals whoare in there and all going in
the same direction, all with theconfidence to agree, to
disagree, to dispute, and youknow, knowing that we heard,
knowing that we listened to, toallow the progress, to allow us
to continue our rowing in thesame direction.
So, yeah, it's very good.
Dr Phil (19:48):
Awesome.
So that's the ins and outs ofthe little dynamic that you have
there, because you've obviouslycomplimented each other very
nicely to be able to achievethis.
And it was him coming on boardthat instigated everything, so I
achieve this.
And it was him coming on boardthat instigated everything, so I
knew that he must be bringingsomething to the table which
you've nicely articulated there.
I'm interested to know.
There's a there's a fact.
You know there's a lot ofdental practices, dentists and
principals out there and they'vegot one practice right and they
(20:11):
just can't physically get theirhead around what they need to
do in order to either free upthe cash flow or free up the
time to get to the next level.
Is that a phenomenon thatyou've encountered before, that
you've got a bit of awareness of?
Dr James (20:26):
Yeah, I think, both in general terms but also within
our group.
You know, I suppose it is amindset of business to some
degree, but self-employedbusiness, you know, where
dentists are self-employed,there is a tendency to want to
(20:46):
do everything that comes theirway themselves.
You know, and you know be that.
You know, one of my biggestbugbears is hygiene treatment.
You know, we have phenomenal Idon't mean we personally, but
the United Kingdom somephenomenal hygienists,
phenomenal therapists, each ofwhom have a specific treatment
(21:11):
provision that they are expertin.
So why should they not do thearea?
Why should they not do the area?
Why should they not take careof the treatments that they are
specifically trained in?
And in a lot of instances,dentists will want to do the
quick scaling to get the fee forthat, rather than actually put
(21:34):
it to a hygienist and focusthemselves on what they are more
expert in, more advancedtreatments, etc.
So, um, there is a lot of umthat I totally understand the
reasons for it, you know, and Ithink, um, often, when we are
discussing and embarking that,uh, embarking on that route with
, with some of the dentists,there is a um, a tendency to
(21:55):
kind of not really feel it'sgoing to work.
I suppose a fear of letting goof that fear, that treatment
type.
Dr Phil (22:04):
But very quickly you know when the diary is managed,
they have more time, they'reable to do more of the
treatments that they wish to do,then you know, everything
becomes clearer and they're ableto progress on that that way
and fulfill as much potential aseveryone else you know I'm I
(22:26):
wanted to ask that question toyou before I came on today, but
you've made me appreciate whythat was a good question to ask
from a whole other angle,because I was just thinking of
it from your perspective as inmaybe part of you felt that you
were unsure what to do to get tothat next level.
But if you think about it,there's this whole other
dimension to it, because youactually see these people day in
(22:46):
, day out.
You see these principles whenyou're acquiring your practice,
so you're able to see acrossdifferent practices, what you
feel will really help, and, asyou've articulated just then,
part of it is delegating thestuff, part of it isating the
stuff.
Part of it is how can I saythis?
Yeah, do, yeah, delegatingcertain treatments to people
that have probably have moreexpertise in us.
(23:07):
Let's be honest, because they'rethe hygienists and they do
those sorts of things all daylong, and us focusing on the
things that maybe, uh can behigher ticket uh is part of the
equation, uh, so that our timeis used more effectively.
And all of a sudden, you'vejust that maybe can be higher
ticket is part of the equation,so that our time is used more
effectively.
And all of a sudden, you'vejust unleashed this huge amount
of cash flow in your businessand you're probably working less
(23:27):
as well, which actually tiesinto the exact two things that I
was saying a second ago.
It's for me.
What I've come across is theyeither can't get their head
around how they can get theirbusiness to be profitable enough
to be able to have a spare cash, or they're just so busy doing
things that they're like how doI manage one clinic, never mind
frigging 23 or whatever you know?
Dr James (23:47):
I think you're right.
It's being caught in thatquamlar.
You know, and I think I knowwhat I need to do, but I'm too
busy to do it.
So when I get quieter I willaddress it.
But the reality is you willnever get quieter.
You know, and I think I think Iwas the worst at it.
You know I speak fromexperience and there is there is
almost a security in beingbooked for six weeks, for eight
(24:11):
weeks.
You know, I now see that as areal insecurity.
You know, if I'm booked thatfar ahead, you know, there is an
, there is something wrong.
You're unwell, you take a weekoff, patients are having to book
three months hence.
It's just not a great way to beworking.
I think more and more maybe itis me getting older, but looking
(24:35):
after number one, I can't seepatients if I'm not well.
I can't see patients if I'm notwell.
I can't see patients if I'm not100%.
I can't see patients if I'mstressed, I'm run down, I've got
too much on my plate, I don'thave help around me, and that
was a really, really difficultlesson for me to learn.
And I think back to as mybrother puts it you're going to
(24:59):
have to stop being clinicalunless you can become more
efficient.
So it was just constant it wasintense, it was non-stop.
You're not really at your bestwhen you don't have reflective
time and there's certain thingsthat I do now, certain things
that we do together.
We golf really badly, butregularly together.
(25:19):
The first nine holes isbusiness talk.
The second nine hole,absolutely no business.
It's he and I.
It's family.
How are his family wife, kidssame with me, our parents, our
brothers, our sisters?
Because that's something thatcan quite easily be forgotten.
It's important to really reapthe benefits of sibling
(25:43):
ownership in a business, butit's important not to forget
everything else that goes around, that you know.
The business is important, butit's not the be-all and end-all,
you know.
So I think, from that point ofview, my efficiency has been
really helped with.
You know, I was the last personwho I ever thought would have
an executive assistant, but it'schanged my life, literally
(26:06):
changed my life In terms ofsomeone who has access to emails
, manages diaries, tells me whatto do basically and when to do
it, says no to things that Iwould have said yes to.
And you've met Natalie, you'vediscussed Natalie.
In terms of setting up this,I'd still be trying to put this
(26:28):
together, trying to put thistogether, but that's all dealt
with.
You know, that's been reallyimportant.
In addition to that, workingwith two nurses at all times,
both phenomenal and reallyallowing their careers to
progress in terms of what theydo that I'm, then just dealing
(26:50):
with that.
You know me flapping about withemails.
Just the volume of emails issuffocating, or was suffocating.
You know I now finish my day.
I look at my pinned emails thatyou know, natalie has pinned.
(27:11):
I then look at my drafts thatshe has, you know, started.
I then just finish and that'smy two things I do my pinned
emails and my draft emails.
Then I got on to the moregeneral ones and that type of
thing.
You know, you actually, Isuppose, initially start to feel
a bit guilty when you'rethinking wait a minute, I might
(27:31):
be up to date.
I'm not going to be up to datefor 10 years, you know.
But you don't think thatbecause then another wave comes.
But at least you know you'vegot a bigger team around you, uh
, that can help and that canassist.
And actually, you know it'sback to the dentist, hygienist,
therapist model.
You know I've got individualswho are far better at
controlling diaries, uh,efficiencies, organizing what
(27:55):
needs to be prioritized, and youknow, know, prioritising that
saying no to things that I justwon't have time for, you know,
because you end up, I suppose,reputationally you say yes to
everything.
Great, great, Phil's going todo that, Phil's going to do it.
Phil never gets around to doingit, and that's the reality you
know.
So you end up, I suppose, beingthe guy who says yes but doesn't
complete, as opposed to now theguy who says yes but doesn't
(28:17):
complete, as opposed to now theguy who says yes and efficiently
completes, and that's beenreally good.
Dr Phil (28:27):
That was actually a big mental block for me because,
being from, I guess, middleclass Northern Ireland, if
someone would have said to me,yeah, you've got a virtual
assistant or an executiveassistant, I mean part of me
would have been like who do Ithink they are?
You know what?
I mean?
It's kind of it wasn'tsomething, I was just like to me
(28:49):
that was just not, you justhandled your own stuff.
That was how I thought, and I'mnot saying that's right, it's
just how I thought right.
But then the day that I waslike maybe I just need to get
over this and just have someonewho actually helps me do these
things, is that you just neverlook back, do you?
Because you're so much moreefficient, and here's the thing
you can focus on the big stuff.
Right, that's actually reallygoing to push things forwards
(29:10):
too.
So, yeah, completely on boardwith that and it is.
There's like life before andlife after.
That epiphany at least it wasfor me.
Anyway, it's on and this iswhat exactly, yeah this.
This is it right.
It's like a mindset thing asmuch as anything else, and it
actually leads me on to what Iwas going to say next.
This is obviously how you'vebeen able to still maintain
three days in the clinic, andthese are longer days as well 12
(29:32):
hours yeah, I'm generally.
Dr James (29:34):
I generally do eight to late um tuesday, wednesday,
thursday.
It's just a working week ofthree days.
You know that's good for me.
It works well.
I have the Mondays and Fridaysin and around our clinics
working, sometimes seeing casesin clinics where you know it is
(29:55):
a skill set or a specificimplant treatment type or soft
tissue graft surgical type workthat our dentists want me to
look at, or just meeting theteams, meeting the dentists,
seeing the clinics and thatworks really well.
Dr Phil (30:09):
It is under review.
Dr James (30:12):
you know the my main issue with in terms of
efficiency if I'm in head office, so to speak, or in and around
the clinics on a monday, there'salways items that hang over
onto the tuesday and similarlyon the friday when I'm back out
uh, in clinics and head officethe tuesday, wednesday, thursday
, clinical, there's sometimeslittle hangovers from from that
(30:33):
as well that need dealt with.
So I had toy with the idea ofgoing three weeks clinical, one
week non-clinical and again,like all these processes, I
don't know what's right, I don'tknow what will work, what won't
work.
Dr Phil (30:47):
But the one way to find out is to try it and see audit
it and see what works.
Dr James (30:53):
Same as diary zoning, why we zone the diaries?
Again, I thought I was the lastperson to zone my diary but my
diary is zoned and it's strippedand we can't really mess with
that, otherwise it knocks ontoeverything else.
So I think just that level oforganisation that we can really
borrow from other industries interms of that set up and how it
(31:20):
works.
From a patient's point of viewit allows them to access me more
readily rather than me.
Just.
You know my working schedule,my working life being dictated
by you, know who calls, whenthey call, what the issue is and
how persuasive they are on thetelephone.
You know you end up with a backto back, no time to breathe, no
(31:41):
time to reflect, no time toconsider various different
treatment plans.
You know it's all in a bitrushed, which is no good for
anyone.
So we're well out of that,thankfully.
Dr Phil (31:56):
Hey, good stuff.
And I mean, yeah, it's.
This is the thing, because pasta certain point, time becomes a
bottleneck and you're just toospent to be the best version of
yourself.
So unless you want to spendyour whole life being in that
zone which is horrible and nofun then we kind of almost have
to get over these little mentalobstacles and learn these things
.
And, as you were saying asecond ago, past a certain
(32:18):
certain point, you know there isno, there's no textbook and how
it's done.
You kind of just have to do itand see if it works for you and
then, if it doesn't, well, youcan always just roll back or mix
things up again.
There's, I think.
People sometimes think there'sa science to it, and there is,
but a lot of it is just trialand error and seeing what's
working.
The point is that at leastyou're trying to make some
(32:38):
progress rather than juststaying where you are in that
zone of just being so busy andspent all the time.
Anyway, I've been through it's.
I think every business owner'sjust been been through a similar
journey and had theseepiphanies at some stage.
One thing I wanted to askobviously you're in the clinic
three days a week, and thenthere's the other four days a
week, right, and there's justnot going to be enough bandwidth
.
I'm sure you go for whole weeksand you don't even think about
(33:01):
certain clinics, right, justbecause it's a bandwidth thing.
You know, we're only humans.
There's only so many hours in aday, there's only so much brain
space.
How is that structured, as in,how are those practice
structured in terms of whomanages what?
Is there a pm in every practiceor is there, like an area
manager?
I'm interested to to know.
Dr James (33:17):
So, again, just like any process, it's a process that
we're just in the process ofreviewing and changing.
At the moment I move towards aPM in every practice, you know,
depending on the size of thepractice.
Again, a fee surgery clinicversus a team surgery clinic.
It is a different structurethere.
(33:38):
It may be an operationalsupervisor in the clinic versus
a PM and then a couple ofregional individuals who oversee
those areas.
But in terms of actually themanagement of that and the time
for that, one of the things thatI really focus on and really
(33:59):
appreciate the benefit of teamfocus on is strategy Actually
discussing where do we want toget to and how do we want to get
there, and that overalldirection in whatever aspect and
they are many and varied ifeveryone is on the same mindset,
(34:20):
then that rollout among alarger number of clinics from an
agreed strategy is far moresuccessful.
Dr Phil (34:30):
Amazing.
So KPIs, I'm going to guess,are part of that.
Dr James (34:35):
KPIs yeah, in terms of treatment types white space,
hourly rate, agency usage fornurses, staff absence for nurses
, absence in general, where,again, it's not me as a
clinician but led by my brotherwe know we have 130 chairs in
(35:05):
our estate.
How old is each chair?
The benefit of things likePower BI?
That we know exactly.
We had a conversation yesterdayabout a chair needing repair
and you've got the informationat your fingertips.
That's £2,500 spent on it over12 visits in the last 12 months.
So they're coming out, you know, every month to repair that
(35:30):
chair.
How old is the chair?
17 years old, it's done, youknow.
So there is then a drive,proactive drive, rather than
repair, repair, repair.
You know, it's not just therepair, it's the downtime, it's
the inconvenience, the patientswhen the surgery is done, but
just driving.
You know 135 chairs with anaverage age of eight and a half
(35:51):
years.
How do we get that further down?
You know.
So that is.
It is a real benefit when weknow our oldest chair is 13
years, 12 years, 11 years, 10years, and you're proactively
replacing these chairs ratherthan just waiting until
something goes wrong.
(36:11):
I think back to one of myreasons for doing what I do and,
as the group knows, ourdentists know that I say all the
time I should be happy to workin any of our surgeries and that
is a pretty big statement whenyou've got 23 clinics, 130 odd
(36:33):
surgeries.
But in the last two years alonewe're around £4 million
reinvestment, both inrejuvenating, improving,
modernising, replacing equipment, improving equipment, improving
the number of digital scanners7 CT scanners that we invested
(36:58):
to make these clinics as good asthey possibly can be, I think
is a big commitment, both interms of time organisation but
financially as well, but it'svitally important.
Ultimately.
That factors down from dentiststo team members, to the
patients under our care, whichis ultimately the most important
(37:18):
thing.
Dr Phil (37:20):
And yeah, you know the number of times I've heard uh
people who've had uh multiplepractices emphasize how
important it is to have gooddata.
Well, it's, it's.
It's essential, because thenyou can just make these
decisions.
Otherwise, you're just makingit out of emotion and, you know,
maybe licking a finger andsticking it in the air.
How did you the list of kpisthat you have?
Is there like a big book ofkpis somewhere, or were these
(37:42):
just things that you justgradually added to a list with
time and you thought, hey, thiswould be good to measure, or
this would be good to measure,or something like that?
Dr James (37:49):
there are, I suppose, some some basics.
You know that.
You know, um, if people, ifdentists, are not there, or if
you're short of dentists, or ifstaff are not there, staff are
unwell, you can't see thepatients, the patients can't
have treatment.
There's no income from practice.
All of you know if there's alot of white space in the book,
(38:11):
but it's then reviewing andauditing the processes that
affect each and every one ofthese.
You know.
So, in terms of staffremuneration really important,
that team members are vital.
They've got to have a structurethat they know I can get from
here to there.
I can see the progression overthe years with the experience
(38:31):
that I build up, with otheradditional skills that I acquire
and that I'm taught, and wefund our nursing teams through
that.
You know they're more motivated, they want to do more.
It builds up what the cliniccan offer in these individual
areas across the country.
So all of the and there's manyand varied parameters in terms
(38:56):
of KPIs and what a KPI is in aspecific clinic at a specific
moment in time.
So all of that is a mix, but,yeah, you know, it allows you to
move in the direction that youwant to move in and I think the
important aspect of that is thecommunication of that.
You know, because we're in amarket at the moment where
(39:18):
dentist percentages, for example, at 50 percent across the board
, you know, and rightly andrightly so, we want teams who
are trained, who are well paid,who are well qualified yes, I
mean, and the kpis will vary andchange from time to time
depending on a specific clinic,specific clinician requirements,
(39:41):
the geography, etc.
And it's important that we areon top of them to make sure that
we are driving specific areasof the business in the way we
want to do that you know?
Dr Phil (40:00):
one thing I was really curious about, because I've
heard a lot of principals saythis who get to the maybe five,
six, seven dental practice mark.
They say that the banks stopgiving you funding because they
see you as too risky.
They don't want to put alltheir eggs in one basket.
Is that something you've heard?
And also, number two how didyou negotiate that or how did
you, yeah, how did you navigatethat whenever you hit that level
?
Dr James (40:20):
So, I think it's about having the right knowledge and
the right support.
You know, from a financialpoint of view, we've certainly
had no real resistance in termsof funding.
You know, I think it is verymuch.
I don't know whether that's aScotland thing versus UK-wide,
(40:47):
but it is a green sector, asthey say.
You know is where it needs tobe in terms of the parameters
that are set.
Then you know, we've not hadany issues from that point of
view.
Perhaps you know, as I mentionedback at the start of the
(41:08):
podcast, we have been relativelyslow growing, despite our best
intentions at the start.
For me to get to 50 points witha turn of 50, we may still do
that.
I've got a couple of years togo, but you know, it may be that
that has something to do withit.
But certainly the financialcontrol, it's imperative.
I suppose that is the only areathat I would say we are truly
(41:33):
corporate and I think for goodreason.
The financial control, theefficiency of that, the
corporate infrastructure, isvital to protect what we want to
do and the individuality wewant to do it with from the
growth and clinical and businessprogression point of view.
Dr Phil (41:52):
Interesting.
There we go.
So that's maybe it's an Englishthing, you know.
Come to think of it, becauseit's something I've heard
principals say before.
Perhaps there's more to it, asyou were saying a second ago, or
yeah, this is an interestingone.
Yeah, that is an interestingone.
I'm interested to know oneother thing what is the?
(42:16):
What's the why, what's theoverall mission, like the
objective, what keeps you goingwhen things get really tough and
keeps you pushing forwards?
Because a lot of people, whenthey get to a certain number of
practices, they start to kickback and they start to relax.
I'm just interested what givesyou that fire, so to speak?
Dr James (42:32):
Yeah, I mean, I think, all manner of aspects of it.
You know, I think the pride ingrowing a business that
continues to grow, thatcontinues to improve, is one
thing.
You know, the determination tosucceed, you know so very often,
(42:57):
and I think it is a mindsetthat people will come with
problems, but certainly oursenior leadership team and and
that that filters down to othersdon't come with problems, come
with solutions.
You know, and it's a realpleasure dealing with
individuals who you know thishas happened, that's happened,
here's what I'm going to do andhere's why I'm going to do it.
You know, and we certainly tryto culture a belief in all of
(43:22):
our team members that you know,if decisions are made on the
spot, with the best of intention, perfect, you know it might not
be the right decision but ifit's been thought through and
processed, you know, with alogical progression, then
absolutely fantastic.
And I think that being able tosee that in the progress of
(43:42):
individuals, you knowparticularly some of the the
longest standing members ofstaff, you know who've been with
you 10 years and just worked upto to different levels.
You know dental nurses who nowhave a role in management and
you're thinking, oh my God, howare you performing?
(44:04):
I would never have thought that.
Remember we met all those yearsago.
You were a trainee.
You were occasionally off on aMonday if it was a wild weekend
and these individuals areactually now feeding into those
figures which allow us to makedecisions.
And these individuals areactually now feeding into those
figures which allow us to makedecisions.
(44:25):
And you just have a belief inindividuals and you know how
they are excelling, how they are, you know just performing, how
they're integrated and involvedin the business and that's a
real pleasure and I think it'sthat aspect of things, from a
business side of things, that isa real driver.
I think obviously the familyside of things working with my
brother is great, you know, andthe wider family in head office,
(44:49):
but I think first and foremost,you know, I'm a dentist.
As I said at the very start,that's what I qualified in being
able to know how many patientsare responsible for us.
I think sorry how many patientswe are responsible for is the
biggest driver, you know,because it is from our head
(45:10):
office point of view.
It's very much an invertedpyramid structure.
The patients are at the top ofthat, you know.
That is why we have thebusiness.
In order to deliver what weneed to care for those patients,
we need clinical support teams,and everything else that's
(45:30):
right down to the cleaner is asimportant in that, because we
want clean clinics that arewelcoming, that have the right,
that are welcoming, that havethe right ambience, that have
the right smell.
These guys are in the sixo'clock in the morning every
single morning to make it.
So, you know, but I think Ithink the biggest driver with
all of that is the number ofpeople that we are responsible
(45:52):
for and who rely on thedecisions that we make, you know
, and that is not only our 230nurses, but their partners,
their families, etc.
You know, it's the dentist,their partners, their families,
their ambition.
You know, ultimately that sitswith Christopher and I.
We are at the very bottom of thepyramid, being squished by
(46:13):
everything above, you know, andthat sense of responsibility
excites me, it's what drives me,it's why I work every day of
the week, even when I'm onholiday.
People say I take my laptopwhere I go.
I suppose it's the mindset ofthe entrepreneur, of the
business owner.
I'm sure you're exactly thesame.
(46:34):
It gives me great pleasure tospend two hours in a beachside
cafe getting caught up with myemails.
I can do that.
I couldn't have done that 20years ago when I started out,
but I can do that now and it'sback to that responsibility.
The fact that I'm on holidayshould not make a difference to
those who rely on my input whenI'm gone.
(46:55):
But similarly, the flip side ofthat back to the efficiency
that you spoke about and thesupport that I have being an
entrepreneur and business ownershouldn't affect my family.
I should still be there, Ishould still be present.
I take every school holiday off,apart from the summer.
I'm not quite there with theseven weeks off at the summer,
(47:15):
but I will get there, I know Iwill get there, and I think the
family aspect of it is vitallyimportant as well, and it's all
of that in the mix.
It's not an easy balance and Ido drop some plates from time to
time.
I get that, but as time goes Iprobably spend more time with
family.
I do actually get the parents'nights now that I never before I
(47:39):
get to school performances thatI never before.
I watch a lot of rugby, etcetera, and I'm as involved in
that as I need to be and Ishould be, which is great.
So that was a very long answerto a simple question.
Dr Phil (47:54):
It was a perfect answer and thank you and something so
useful one.
One big illusion I had about theworld of business before I ran
my own businesses was that youhave to be it has to be 18 hours
a day, every day.
It really doesn't pass acertain point you're leveraged
and you actually have more freetime.
Generally, there's a lot ofeffort at the very start to get
(48:15):
things up and running.
You front load it almost, butthen you build your own schedule
and you have more free time,and that is the thing that I
love so much and I'll happily doseven days a week if I have to
do a little bit here and there,to be able to have my own
schedule, and it sounds like youhave benefited from that as
well and it means you can bethere for the family, you can
move things around, go to theschool recitals, all of that
cool stuff, and that's why I getreally excited when we talk
(48:36):
about business and we do thesesorts of podcasts.
So thank you for sharing yourtime, wisdom and knowledge, Phil
.
I'm already looking forward tothe next episode.
You're very welcome.
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