July 29, 2025 • 19 mins
Get a free audit of your indemnity cover here >>> https://quote.allmedpro.co.uk/dental-indemnity-2025-new-proposal-dwi/
———————————————————————
Collect unlimited free verifiable CPD for UK Dentists here >>> https://www.dentistswhoinvest.com/videos/how-can-i-reduce-my-indemnity-fee-with-adam-okeeffe
———————————————————————
Dental indemnity insurance is one of the most important ongoing costs for dentists in the UK. With renewal season approaching in August and September, now is the time to make sure you have the right cover at the best possible price.
In this insightful episode, Adam O’Keefe from Allmed Pro Insurance Specialists joins us to help dentists understand the key differences between types of cover. He explains why the distinction between discretionary and contractual indemnity can have serious financial consequences if a claim is ever made against you. Adam uses a memorable example that will make you think differently about how your policy works.
We explore why newly qualified dentists often face higher premiums, how recent claims trends are shaping the industry, and what sort of cover you may need after retirement. The episode also highlights valuable extras offered by quality providers, including round-the-clock legal advice, access to GPs, and professional reputation support during difficult times.
Whether you are just starting your dental career or reviewing your existing policy, this episode offers practical guidance to help you protect yourself and your practice more effectively. Listen now and complete the short questionnaire in the description to claim free verifiable CPD that counts towards your learning goals while potentially saving you thousands on your renewal.
———————————————————————
Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (00:00):
August slash.
September is a pretty painfultime of the year for us dentists
because our indemnity fees aredue and those can tally up to
quite the expense.
So certainly anything that cansave on that front and ensure
that we're getting the best dealis helpful, and that's why I
have Mr Adam O'Keeffe joining ustoday from All Med Pro
(00:21):
Insurance Specialists.
He's here to share with us whatus dentists need to know in
order to save some money, getthe best deal, ensure that our
cover is adequate for alleventualities and make this time
of year as least painful aspossible.
I'm also happy to share thatthere is free verifiable CPD
associated with this podcastepisode.
(00:43):
Whenever you finish the episode, all you have to do is click
the link in the podcastdescription.
It'll take you right throughthe Dentists Who Invest website.
You'll be able to complete ashort questionnaire and, once
passed, you fill in yourreflections and we'll go ahead
and email over to you yourverifiable CPD certificate,
which is entirely free.
What that means is this podcastepisode will be able to
(01:03):
contribute towards yourverifiable CPD hours during this
learning cycle.
Something super topical today,which is indemnity and this is
the time of year where usdentists start to think about it
again and I've got my goodcompadre, good friend, Adam
O'Keeffe, sat with me today,head of AllMedPro.
(01:24):
We're going to be talking aboutindemnity and what you need to
know to get the best deal,because everybody feels like
they're paying too much right.
It's a common gripe.
Us dentists love a bargainright and that's fine.
That's okay.
What do you reckon, Adam?
Adam (01:36):
Yeah, well, you certainly do.
Dr James (01:45):
And yeah, it's that time of year July, august,
September the peak of indemnityrenewals.
So yeah, good time to have thisconversation.
For sure let's do it interestedto know, and it might be,
there's probably this might havean obvious answer.
I'm gonna ask you in any way,why is it that around about now
there is a peak?
Is it because this is when allthe fds are sorry that well,
yeah, the fds go into work,right, and then this is, it's
like the renewal of the academicyear, it's like a knock-on
effect from that right.
Adam (02:06):
Yeah, you've got it spot on there.
Most of them graduated aroundthis time of year, first job
going into work September,october time.
So there's a few other times ofthe year where there's slight
peaks January, february butother than that, yeah, this is
peak season.
Dr James (02:23):
Interesting.
There we go.
I'm going to ask anotherquestion that might have an
obvious answer, but again Iwon't ask it anyway, because
this is always at the top ofdentists' minds.
Why does it go up so much,almost like exponentially in the
first few years, the fee forindemnity, the renewal fee, Adam
?
Why do dentists typicallyexperience that, at least with
(02:45):
some companies?
Adam (02:46):
Well, if we're talking those who've recently qualified,
quite often there's a bit moresupervision around the first
couple of years.
So it's staged.
The premiums increase In termsof increasing in general terms,
which we are seeing many of theindemnity providers increase
their rates year on year.
The main factor to that will beclaims.
We have seen claims trends onthe up and claims costs on the
(03:10):
up over the last.
You know well it's year on year.
So that's the main driver forpremiums going up generically.
Dr James (03:16):
I would guess got a, got a query as well, interesting
for the audience.
I know that there is a commontheme that litigation is going
up in dentistry, or at leastthere was over the last few
years.
Is that still on the rise or isit kind of leveled off?
Adam (03:33):
I would say it's.
It's not, as it's not on therise as it was, say, four or
five years ago.
It is leveling off, but claimsclaims are still very costly, so
that's that's.
That's where the issue stilllies yikes.
Dr James (03:47):
Okay, and naturally that's going to come through in
our indemnity bill as a dentist.
Well listen, it's a little bitlike this if we're going to have
to pay for something, let'smake sure we're paying for value
.
So let's cut to the chase.
How do us dentists know thatwe're getting a good deal when
it comes to our insurancerenewal or our indemnity?
Adam (04:11):
Well, there's a lot of good indemnity providers out
there nowadays.
In the last 10, 15 years, since2011,.
When we set up, you know, youonly had three indemnity
providers medical defenceorganisations and it's kind of
moved on quite a bit over thelast, over that period.
I would say you look beyondsort of the claims occurrence.
You look beyond the contractcertainty.
(04:32):
You look beyond the 24-7support.
That's a very minimum in myopinion.
What you should have.
You look beyond that.
What else can that indemnityprovider provide me at my time
of need?
Is that?
You know, know something mighthit the press.
Do I need PR or reputationprotection?
You know I'm struggling with, Idon't know, mental health, or
(04:53):
you know what else can thisindemnity provider help me at my
time of need?
And I think that's that.
That's it really.
So, yeah, it's getting fairvalue for what you are paying
for and making sure thatindemnity provider is on your
side.
Dr James (05:07):
I see.
So, as a minimum, those wouldbe the things that you would
expect.
So that's almost like achecklist.
And am I right in saying that?
Not every?
Obviously we're definitely nothere to name names, but just out
of interest, you know, you knowmore about the market than me.
It's not always a given thatevery provider provides that
stuff.
Right that?
Adam (05:22):
every provider provides that stuff, right?
No, not all providers offer theoccurrence cover and not all
providers provide contractcertainty.
By contract certainty I mean aninsurance product with terms
and conditions and you know mostdo offer the 24-7 support.
But again, that's the sort ofminimum expectation You'd expect
to speak to a dental legaladvisor if you've got a query or
(05:43):
require advice.
Dr James (05:45):
Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know.
The answer to this Is there.
Is it a bit of a?
I don't know if this is anurban myth or not, but some
people say that even when youconsult your indemnity provider
over the phone as in you justhave a query or there's some
sort of sniff of a complaint andyou're speaking to them for
advice that that then means thatyour indemnity goes up.
Adam (06:08):
No.
Well, I say no, not for us.
We encourage individuals to giveus a call at the end of the day
if we can get on to somethingearly and stop that sort of
going towards a claim orescalating.
We want to know sooner ratherthan later, and I know there is
a project I think it's calledProjects Theor, where a number
of the indemnity providers arewithin that group and that is
(06:32):
one of the main intentions of itnot to penalize dentists for
using the advice line.
So, from our perspective, callus as much as you need and we
want to help you out early doors.
Dr James (06:45):
Well, that makes sense , actually, now that you said
out loud, because surely thatinvestment of time on the
provider's half, on theprovider's behalf basically,
will mean that they can thensubsequently avoid, avoid more
of an outlay later yeah, 100,and that's exactly it makes
sense, interesting, interesting.
(07:05):
okay, one thing we have to talkabout, because this is a topic
of contention that I still feel.
A lot of dentists don't knowabout this and certainly for the
ones that do, they're a littleup in arms about it
Discretionary versusnon-discretionary cover.
(07:26):
Maybe it might be nice if wehad a bit of an explainer as to
what those terms mean.
Adam (07:31):
first of all, yeah, of course I touched on it right
back at the beginning, when wefirst set up in 2011, it was
three discretionary providers.
Now discretionary cover isPretty much as it sounds.
It's down to the discretion ofthe provider whether they will
cover a claim or not.
Now I always say, would youinsure your house for fire and
(07:53):
then wait till you've had thefire to find out whether you're
covered or not?
You know, would you cover yourcar?
And then you know you have anaccident and it's only at the
point or the time of an accidentyou know whether you're covered
or not.
I don't think many of us would.
So with discretionary cover,there's no sort of terms and
(08:14):
conditions, there's no financialombudsman service at the end of
it.
So if a claim is repudiated orrejected, then you've got no
rights of recourse.
So on the flip side, you havecontract certainty or a contract
of insurance.
It has the terms and conditions, it has the.
You know.
You complete your proposal.
You say you're doing x, y and z.
They.
(08:35):
They cover those for you andany exclusions will be there in
black and white, and I meanexclusions.
It's normally active activitiesyou haven't declared, so it's.
And again, if there are anyissues with that claim, you've
got.
You have got the ombudsmanservice and the right of
recourse.
Dr James (08:51):
So for me it's it's pretty obvious insurance or
contract of insurance is the wayforward be saying hey, but if I
get non-discretionary or sorry,if I get discretionary cover,
(09:12):
in which case, well, really,it's not even necessarily the
case that they'll give me cover,should there be a claim.
I guess what some people mightassume is that that is cheaper
as a result no, no in some cases.
Adam (09:24):
In some cases it'll be.
Yeah, looking at all theindemnity providers, there's not
too much between them in termsof what you pay nowadays.
There's just different tweaksbetween what they cover and what
they don't.
Dr James (09:38):
I see.
So that's not even necessarilythe case.
Well, it's good to spell thatout right, Because you might
assume that from listening.
Adam (09:45):
Yeah, of course yeah.
Dr James (09:46):
It's a bit like to use a crude analogy comprehensive
cover for your car versus thirdparty.
The third party is gonna becheaper, right, but there's less
cover, yeah but it's not evenit's not even quite third party,
it's just it's because at leastthird party, you definitely
will get something if someonecrashes into you.
Adam (10:02):
It's literally yes there's some providers out there who
offer claims made insurancewhich is cheaper.
By claims made insurance.
That is a contract, certainpolicy, but what it is is if you
it's a bit like your car andhome insurance, really whilst
the policy's in force, yourcover's in force.
Once that policy ends, coverends.
So in the scenario of a dentist, you do yesterday your policy's
(10:26):
in force, it expires tomorrow.
If a claim comes in fortreatment performed yesterday
and it's expired in a couple ofdays, you won't be covered.
So that is cheaper.
Obviously there are ways youcan work around that by renewing
the policy, going elsewhere,getting run off cover.
But yeah, there are cheaperoptions.
But I wouldn't advise takingclaims made to insurance unless
(10:49):
you really need to.
Dr James (10:51):
Interesting and you just touched upon something that
was always a question in mymind.
Let's say you have a dentistwho has covered their whole
career and then all of a suddenthey retire.
And then let's say they don'trenew their GDC.
I don't know if that makes adifference or not, but let's say
they don't renew their GDC.
And let's say they don't renewtheir GDC I don't know if that
makes a difference or not, butlet's say they don't renew their
(11:12):
GDC.
Then let's say a patient, like10 years later makes a claim
against them.
Where does that money come from?
Adam (11:15):
Do they chase the dentist?
Dr James (11:16):
up.
Adam (11:16):
Yeah.
So if you're on an occurrencepolicy, as long as that policy
was enforced at the time oftreatment, no matter how long in
the future a claim comes in,you'll be covered.
So we'd go back to that policy.
So say, a dentist retired in Idon't know 2015,.
They have a claim.
Come in now for treatmentperformed in 2015, for instance.
As long as they have anoccurrence policy in place, it
(11:38):
should pay out.
Dr James (11:40):
I see, and let's say, they didn't have a current cover
in place.
Would they subsequentlypersonally be liable or would it
be the dental practice?
Adam (11:51):
Yeah, and let's say, if I found any other arrangements.
There are things that you canarrange like run off cover with
the insurer, but usually that'spayable annually after you
retire.
Some insurers include thatstandard for maybe three years,
five years, ten years.
That it depends on the insurer,really.
But yeah, if there was no coverin place, these law firms like
to chuck mud, so they'll chuckmud wherever it sticks, whether
(12:14):
that's the individual dentist,whether that's the dental
practice or whether that's anyother dentist who have been
involved in the treatment.
Dr James (12:21):
So yeah, wow, so they'll.
They'll just put their mind toit and try to find a way,
basically, yeah, let's see.
Okay, interesting.
I always had that query in mymind.
That was like how did that work?
Adam (12:34):
because you hear about vicarious liability yeah but
that's yeah yeah, that's wherethat would come in.
Yeah, often, often, the nameabove the door would be the
dental practice.
A claim comes in or a claimantmakes a claim, the law firm will
look to involve all partiesinvolved in that treatment.
Usually, and quite often, it'llfall on the individual's
(12:57):
indemnity for a number ofreasons.
One, if if they do have youknow, if, if they are at fault
in any way, in any way thepractice.
Two, if that individual and wedo see it goes back overseas, we
can't find the indemnity cover,or you know.
Or thirdly, maybe even thecover's expired, or you know we
(13:19):
touched on it a moment ago if itwas on a claim is made basis.
They have not renewed it orthey've not, you know.
That's where the precariousliability might start.
A step in interesting.
Dr James (13:29):
So, Adam, if we had to summarize everything, if you
were to give everybody who's alistener to this podcast a
checklist of the hot fact thingsthat they hot, hot, hot and
sharp, hot and fast things sorryis the word.
I'm looking for things thatthey can take away to their
indemnity provider to make surethat they're covered and that
all the bases I've mentioned inthis podcast are.
(13:50):
Well, we've got those protected, they're working for the
dentist or we've got those inour hands.
Shall we say what would that be?
What would that be?
I know I've put you on thespotlight there, but I feel like
you've got that.
Adam (14:02):
I've put you on the spotlight there, but I feel like
I've touched on two or three ofthem already.
So, claims occurrence, firstand foremost, do they offer that
?
Yes, great Contract certaintyAgain, we've touched on that.
We said the 24-7 support andadvice.
Make sure that you know maybehave a look who their dental
legal advisors are as well.
(14:23):
You know there's some reallygood legal advisors out there.
There's other things you want tolook out, like contingent cover
, and what I mean by contingentcover is that if you have moved
from a discretionary provider toan insurance backed provider,
you and the claim come in forthe time you were the
discretionary provider, if therewas.
If that discretionary providerrepudiated a claim, you're left
(14:43):
a you were the discretionaryprovider.
If that discretionary providerrepudiated a claim, you're left
a bit in the lurch.
So a number of the insurers,including ourselves, will
provide contingent cover whichwill pick up any claims
repudiated for the period youwere with that discretionary
provider.
So it just gives you that extrasort of security when you're
moving, because I know movingfrom the likes of the mdos,
(15:06):
those who provide that that kindof cover sometimes you know
you've been with them for 10, 12years plus and it's quite a big
jump and there's someuncertainty and I think just
having some extra securityaround that that move is quite
important.
What other way words I mean?
I think there's also otherthings, like we offer a 24-7 GP
(15:28):
support service.
Now it might not sound much,but it's quite popular with our
members.
If they're ill or a member oftheir immediate family are ill,
they can call up, get some help,get a prescription, you know,
get back to work quicker even so.
I mean it's just looking atwhat else they do around the
indemnity and how else they cansupport you at your time of need
, pr and reputation.
(15:49):
What do they do around that?
We know things do get out intothe press and your reputation,
as you'll know, is vital.
So you know what else can theydo to support you in that time.
We've got a PR team who willstep in, help you out and try
and turn that what might bewhich will be negative news into
(16:10):
a sort of a positive spin.
So those kind of things I'dreally look out for.
Dr James (16:15):
That is crazy right that that that can be done.
You know that you can kind of,so you, how does that work?
Just out of pure curiosity,more than anything else, is it
that you, you release press andmedia outlets that basically
says positive things about thedentist.
Adam (16:31):
So you go to the source and you're like, hey, this isn't
on, I'm just curious yeah, alot of it is, and it's way above
my pay grade in terms of whatthey do.
But they've got pr teams whowill go onto the likes of google
and put positive news out thereon you and try it almost try
and get that negative news downthrough the ranking.
So, yeah, it's, it's quiteclever how they do it, but yeah,
(16:53):
it's, it's.
I think it's a vital thing tohave.
Some other things are like andit's it's.
It's what I think is dentistneed, really, or they need to
look beyond year one.
They need to look like whatdoes next year look like?
What does a year after?
Something we do is we provide aprice guarantee for three years
, you know, subject to nothaving lots of claims, for
(17:15):
instance, but I think that givesyou just the assurance.
You know I'm paying this muchnext, this year, next year, it's
going to be the same thefollowing year and as part of
that, we'll then give you twoweeks free cover next year, four
weeks a year after, and I thinkI think I think for the type
you know, it's not, it's not asmall outlay indemnity, so I do
believe it.
You know you should have somereward for your loyalty.
(17:37):
So that's one thing, which it'sit's just looking at those
additional covers, those, thoseindemnity providers, can you?
We would be more than happy toprovide you with an audit of
your indemnity to see any moneyyou can save and also give you
any advice on your currentarrangements.
Please call me personally on07725 580148 or Adam is my email
(18:00):
address.
We've got a link below whichwill take you to our proposal
and our indemnity offering.
August slash.
September is a pretty painfultime of the year for us dentists
because our indemnity fees aredue and those can tally up to
quite the expense.
So certainly anything that cansave on that front and ensure
that we're getting the best dealis helpful, and that's why I
have Mr Adam O'Keeffe joining ustoday from All Med Pro
(00:21):
Insurance Specialists.
He's here to share with us whatus dentists need to know in
order to save some money, getthe best deal, ensure that our
cover is adequate for alleventualities and make this time
of year as least painful aspossible.
I'm also happy to share thatthere is free verifiable CPD
associated with this podcastepisode.
(00:43):
Whenever you finish the episode, all you have to do is click
the link in the podcastdescription.
It'll take you right throughthe Dentists Who Invest website.
You'll be able to complete ashort questionnaire and, once
passed, you fill in yourreflections and we'll go ahead
and email over to you yourverifiable CPD certificate,
which is entirely free.
What that means is this podcastepisode will be able to
(01:03):
contribute towards yourverifiable CPD hours during this
learning cycle.
Something super topical today,which is indemnity and this is
the time of year where usdentists start to think about it
again and I've got my goodcompadre, good friend, Adam
O'Keeffe, sat with me today,head of AllMedPro.
(01:24):
We're going to be talking aboutindemnity and what you need to
know to get the best deal,because everybody feels like
they're paying too much right.
It's a common gripe.
Us dentists love a bargainright and that's fine.
That's okay.
What do you reckon, Adam?
Adam (01:36):
Yeah, well, you certainly do.
Dr James (01:45):
And yeah, it's that time of year July, august,
September the peak of indemnityrenewals.
So yeah, good time to have thisconversation.
For sure let's do it interestedto know, and it might be,
there's probably this might havean obvious answer.
I'm gonna ask you in any way,why is it that around about now
there is a peak?
Is it because this is when allthe fds are sorry that well,
yeah, the fds go into work,right, and then this is, it's
like the renewal of the academicyear, it's like a knock-on
effect from that right.
Adam (02:06):
Yeah, you've got it spot on there.
Most of them graduated aroundthis time of year, first job
going into work September,october time.
So there's a few other times ofthe year where there's slight
peaks January, february butother than that, yeah, this is
peak season.
Dr James (02:23):
Interesting.
There we go.
I'm going to ask anotherquestion that might have an
obvious answer, but again Iwon't ask it anyway, because
this is always at the top ofdentists' minds.
Why does it go up so much,almost like exponentially in the
first few years, the fee forindemnity, the renewal fee, Adam
?
Why do dentists typicallyexperience that, at least with
(02:45):
some companies?
Adam (02:46):
Well, if we're talking those who've recently qualified,
quite often there's a bit moresupervision around the first
couple of years.
So it's staged.
The premiums increase In termsof increasing in general terms,
which we are seeing many of theindemnity providers increase
their rates year on year.
The main factor to that will beclaims.
We have seen claims trends onthe up and claims costs on the
(03:10):
up over the last.
You know well it's year on year.
So that's the main driver forpremiums going up generically.
Dr James (03:16):
I would guess got a, got a query as well, interesting
for the audience.
I know that there is a commontheme that litigation is going
up in dentistry, or at leastthere was over the last few
years.
Is that still on the rise or isit kind of leveled off?
Adam (03:33):
I would say it's.
It's not, as it's not on therise as it was, say, four or
five years ago.
It is leveling off, but claimsclaims are still very costly, so
that's that's.
That's where the issue stilllies yikes.
Dr James (03:47):
Okay, and naturally that's going to come through in
our indemnity bill as a dentist.
Well listen, it's a little bitlike this if we're going to have
to pay for something, let'smake sure we're paying for value
.
So let's cut to the chase.
How do us dentists know thatwe're getting a good deal when
it comes to our insurancerenewal or our indemnity?
Adam (04:11):
Well, there's a lot of good indemnity providers out
there nowadays.
In the last 10, 15 years, since2011,.
When we set up, you know, youonly had three indemnity
providers medical defenceorganisations and it's kind of
moved on quite a bit over thelast, over that period.
I would say you look beyondsort of the claims occurrence.
You look beyond the contractcertainty.
(04:32):
You look beyond the 24-7support.
That's a very minimum in myopinion.
What you should have.
You look beyond that.
What else can that indemnityprovider provide me at my time
of need?
Is that?
You know, know something mighthit the press.
Do I need PR or reputationprotection?
You know I'm struggling with, Idon't know, mental health, or
(04:53):
you know what else can thisindemnity provider help me at my
time of need?
And I think that's that.
That's it really.
So, yeah, it's getting fairvalue for what you are paying
for and making sure thatindemnity provider is on your
side.
Dr James (05:07):
I see.
So, as a minimum, those wouldbe the things that you would
expect.
So that's almost like achecklist.
And am I right in saying that?
Not every?
Obviously we're definitely nothere to name names, but just out
of interest, you know, you knowmore about the market than me.
It's not always a given thatevery provider provides that
stuff.
Right that?
Adam (05:22):
every provider provides that stuff, right?
No, not all providers offer theoccurrence cover and not all
providers provide contractcertainty.
By contract certainty I mean aninsurance product with terms
and conditions and you know mostdo offer the 24-7 support.
But again, that's the sort ofminimum expectation You'd expect
to speak to a dental legaladvisor if you've got a query or
(05:43):
require advice.
Dr James (05:45):
Interested to know, and I feel like you'll know.
The answer to this Is there.
Is it a bit of a?
I don't know if this is anurban myth or not, but some
people say that even when youconsult your indemnity provider
over the phone as in you justhave a query or there's some
sort of sniff of a complaint andyou're speaking to them for
advice that that then means thatyour indemnity goes up.
Adam (06:08):
No.
Well, I say no, not for us.
We encourage individuals to giveus a call at the end of the day
if we can get on to somethingearly and stop that sort of
going towards a claim orescalating.
We want to know sooner ratherthan later, and I know there is
a project I think it's calledProjects Theor, where a number
of the indemnity providers arewithin that group and that is
(06:32):
one of the main intentions of itnot to penalize dentists for
using the advice line.
So, from our perspective, callus as much as you need and we
want to help you out early doors.
Dr James (06:45):
Well, that makes sense , actually, now that you said
out loud, because surely thatinvestment of time on the
provider's half, on theprovider's behalf basically,
will mean that they can thensubsequently avoid, avoid more
of an outlay later yeah, 100,and that's exactly it makes
sense, interesting, interesting.
(07:05):
okay, one thing we have to talkabout, because this is a topic
of contention that I still feel.
A lot of dentists don't knowabout this and certainly for the
ones that do, they're a littleup in arms about it
Discretionary versusnon-discretionary cover.
(07:26):
Maybe it might be nice if wehad a bit of an explainer as to
what those terms mean.
Adam (07:31):
first of all, yeah, of course I touched on it right
back at the beginning, when wefirst set up in 2011, it was
three discretionary providers.
Now discretionary cover isPretty much as it sounds.
It's down to the discretion ofthe provider whether they will
cover a claim or not.
Now I always say, would youinsure your house for fire and
(07:53):
then wait till you've had thefire to find out whether you're
covered or not?
You know, would you cover yourcar?
And then you know you have anaccident and it's only at the
point or the time of an accidentyou know whether you're covered
or not.
I don't think many of us would.
So with discretionary cover,there's no sort of terms and
(08:14):
conditions, there's no financialombudsman service at the end of
it.
So if a claim is repudiated orrejected, then you've got no
rights of recourse.
So on the flip side, you havecontract certainty or a contract
of insurance.
It has the terms and conditions, it has the.
You know.
You complete your proposal.
You say you're doing x, y and z.
They.
(08:35):
They cover those for you andany exclusions will be there in
black and white, and I meanexclusions.
It's normally active activitiesyou haven't declared, so it's.
And again, if there are anyissues with that claim, you've
got.
You have got the ombudsmanservice and the right of
recourse.
Dr James (08:51):
So for me it's it's pretty obvious insurance or
contract of insurance is the wayforward be saying hey, but if I
get non-discretionary or sorry,if I get discretionary cover,
(09:12):
in which case, well, really,it's not even necessarily the
case that they'll give me cover,should there be a claim.
I guess what some people mightassume is that that is cheaper
as a result no, no in some cases.
Adam (09:24):
In some cases it'll be.
Yeah, looking at all theindemnity providers, there's not
too much between them in termsof what you pay nowadays.
There's just different tweaksbetween what they cover and what
they don't.
Dr James (09:38):
I see.
So that's not even necessarilythe case.
Well, it's good to spell thatout right, Because you might
assume that from listening.
Adam (09:45):
Yeah, of course yeah.
Dr James (09:46):
It's a bit like to use a crude analogy comprehensive
cover for your car versus thirdparty.
The third party is gonna becheaper, right, but there's less
cover, yeah but it's not evenit's not even quite third party,
it's just it's because at leastthird party, you definitely
will get something if someonecrashes into you.
Adam (10:02):
It's literally yes there's some providers out there who
offer claims made insurancewhich is cheaper.
By claims made insurance.
That is a contract, certainpolicy, but what it is is if you
it's a bit like your car andhome insurance, really whilst
the policy's in force, yourcover's in force.
Once that policy ends, coverends.
So in the scenario of a dentist, you do yesterday your policy's
(10:26):
in force, it expires tomorrow.
If a claim comes in fortreatment performed yesterday
and it's expired in a couple ofdays, you won't be covered.
So that is cheaper.
Obviously there are ways youcan work around that by renewing
the policy, going elsewhere,getting run off cover.
But yeah, there are cheaperoptions.
But I wouldn't advise takingclaims made to insurance unless
(10:49):
you really need to.
Dr James (10:51):
Interesting and you just touched upon something that
was always a question in mymind.
Let's say you have a dentistwho has covered their whole
career and then all of a suddenthey retire.
And then let's say they don'trenew their GDC.
I don't know if that makes adifference or not, but let's say
they don't renew their GDC.
And let's say they don't renewtheir GDC I don't know if that
makes a difference or not, butlet's say they don't renew their
(11:12):
GDC.
Then let's say a patient, like10 years later makes a claim
against them.
Where does that money come from?
Adam (11:15):
Do they chase the dentist?
Dr James (11:16):
up.
Adam (11:16):
Yeah.
So if you're on an occurrencepolicy, as long as that policy
was enforced at the time oftreatment, no matter how long in
the future a claim comes in,you'll be covered.
So we'd go back to that policy.
So say, a dentist retired in Idon't know 2015,.
They have a claim.
Come in now for treatmentperformed in 2015, for instance.
As long as they have anoccurrence policy in place, it
(11:38):
should pay out.
Dr James (11:40):
I see, and let's say, they didn't have a current cover
in place.
Would they subsequentlypersonally be liable or would it
be the dental practice?
Adam (11:51):
Yeah, and let's say, if I found any other arrangements.
There are things that you canarrange like run off cover with
the insurer, but usually that'spayable annually after you
retire.
Some insurers include thatstandard for maybe three years,
five years, ten years.
That it depends on the insurer,really.
But yeah, if there was no coverin place, these law firms like
to chuck mud, so they'll chuckmud wherever it sticks, whether
(12:14):
that's the individual dentist,whether that's the dental
practice or whether that's anyother dentist who have been
involved in the treatment.
Dr James (12:21):
So yeah, wow, so they'll.
They'll just put their mind toit and try to find a way,
basically, yeah, let's see.
Okay, interesting.
I always had that query in mymind.
That was like how did that work?
Adam (12:34):
because you hear about vicarious liability yeah but
that's yeah yeah, that's wherethat would come in.
Yeah, often, often, the nameabove the door would be the
dental practice.
A claim comes in or a claimantmakes a claim, the law firm will
look to involve all partiesinvolved in that treatment.
Usually, and quite often, it'llfall on the individual's
(12:57):
indemnity for a number ofreasons.
One, if if they do have youknow, if, if they are at fault
in any way, in any way thepractice.
Two, if that individual and wedo see it goes back overseas, we
can't find the indemnity cover,or you know.
Or thirdly, maybe even thecover's expired, or you know we
(13:19):
touched on it a moment ago if itwas on a claim is made basis.
They have not renewed it orthey've not, you know.
That's where the precariousliability might start.
A step in interesting.
Dr James (13:29):
So, Adam, if we had to summarize everything, if you
were to give everybody who's alistener to this podcast a
checklist of the hot fact thingsthat they hot, hot, hot and
sharp, hot and fast things sorryis the word.
I'm looking for things thatthey can take away to their
indemnity provider to make surethat they're covered and that
all the bases I've mentioned inthis podcast are.
(13:50):
Well, we've got those protected, they're working for the
dentist or we've got those inour hands.
Shall we say what would that be?
What would that be?
I know I've put you on thespotlight there, but I feel like
you've got that.
Adam (14:02):
I've put you on the spotlight there, but I feel like
I've touched on two or three ofthem already.
So, claims occurrence, firstand foremost, do they offer that
?
Yes, great Contract certaintyAgain, we've touched on that.
We said the 24-7 support andadvice.
Make sure that you know maybehave a look who their dental
legal advisors are as well.
(14:23):
You know there's some reallygood legal advisors out there.
There's other things you want tolook out, like contingent cover
, and what I mean by contingentcover is that if you have moved
from a discretionary provider toan insurance backed provider,
you and the claim come in forthe time you were the
discretionary provider, if therewas.
If that discretionary providerrepudiated a claim, you're left
(14:43):
a you were the discretionaryprovider.
If that discretionary providerrepudiated a claim, you're left
a bit in the lurch.
So a number of the insurers,including ourselves, will
provide contingent cover whichwill pick up any claims
repudiated for the period youwere with that discretionary
provider.
So it just gives you that extrasort of security when you're
moving, because I know movingfrom the likes of the mdos,
(15:06):
those who provide that that kindof cover sometimes you know
you've been with them for 10, 12years plus and it's quite a big
jump and there's someuncertainty and I think just
having some extra securityaround that that move is quite
important.
What other way words I mean?
I think there's also otherthings, like we offer a 24-7 GP
(15:28):
support service.
Now it might not sound much,but it's quite popular with our
members.
If they're ill or a member oftheir immediate family are ill,
they can call up, get some help,get a prescription, you know,
get back to work quicker even so.
I mean it's just looking atwhat else they do around the
indemnity and how else they cansupport you at your time of need
, pr and reputation.
(15:49):
What do they do around that?
We know things do get out intothe press and your reputation,
as you'll know, is vital.
So you know what else can theydo to support you in that time.
We've got a PR team who willstep in, help you out and try
and turn that what might bewhich will be negative news into
(16:10):
a sort of a positive spin.
So those kind of things I'dreally look out for.
Dr James (16:15):
That is crazy right that that that can be done.
You know that you can kind of,so you, how does that work?
Just out of pure curiosity,more than anything else, is it
that you, you release press andmedia outlets that basically
says positive things about thedentist.
Adam (16:31):
So you go to the source and you're like, hey, this isn't
on, I'm just curious yeah, alot of it is, and it's way above
my pay grade in terms of whatthey do.
But they've got pr teams whowill go onto the likes of google
and put positive news out thereon you and try it almost try
and get that negative news downthrough the ranking.
So, yeah, it's, it's quiteclever how they do it, but yeah,
(16:53):
it's, it's.
I think it's a vital thing tohave.
Some other things are like andit's it's.
It's what I think is dentistneed, really, or they need to
look beyond year one.
They need to look like whatdoes next year look like?
What does a year after?
Something we do is we provide aprice guarantee for three years
, you know, subject to nothaving lots of claims, for
(17:15):
instance, but I think that givesyou just the assurance.
You know I'm paying this muchnext, this year, next year, it's
going to be the same thefollowing year and as part of
that, we'll then give you twoweeks free cover next year, four
weeks a year after, and I thinkI think I think for the type
you know, it's not, it's not asmall outlay indemnity, so I do
believe it.
You know you should have somereward for your loyalty.
(17:37):
So that's one thing, which it'sit's just looking at those
additional covers, those, thoseindemnity providers, can you?
We would be more than happy toprovide you with an audit of
your indemnity to see any moneyyou can save and also give you
any advice on your currentarrangements.
Please call me personally on07725 580148 or Adam is my email
(18:00):
address.
We've got a link below whichwill take you to our proposal
and our indemnity offering.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.