June 15, 2025 • 38 mins
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What does it take to grow a single dental practice into a network of 150 clinics across multiple countries? Dr Sandeep Kumar shares his journey from a newly requalified dentist in the UK to the founder of one of the most recognized Invisalign-focused dental networks in Europe.
After qualifying in India and requalifying in the UK in 2000, Sandeep quickly purchased his first practice and expanded it from one to six surgeries within a few years. But the pivotal moment came in 2017 when he made the bold decision to step away from clinical dentistry entirely. Rather than causing his income to drop, this shift gave him the space to lead strategically and grow faster.
This episode uncovers the mindset shifts and strategic pivots behind that decision. Sandeep reflects on the early grind of entrepreneurship, the evolution of dental marketing from traditional ads to digital platforms, and the importance of focusing on data and trends. One key insight came when he realized patients were asking specifically for Invisalign, revealing an untapped opportunity to structure a business around a single treatment.
Sandeep outlines three essential principles for dentists looking to grow: build a team of exceptional people, use technology to improve patient understanding, and invest in your personal brand. As more patients search online before choosing a provider, your digital presence is becoming just as important as your clinical skills.
Whether you’re an associate dreaming of ownership or a principal ready to scale, this episode offers a practical roadmap for building a business that extends far beyond the dental chair.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (00:00):
It's always good to find out how someone has built a
dental empire, so to speak,because there's lots of
learnings and lessons along theway that can help inspire us
dentists to do amazing things,and that's why I have Mr Sandeep
Kumar with me today.
Sandeep Kumar is particularlyinteresting.
He is a UK dentist who's goneon to grow several associate-led
(00:20):
dental practices and theMiSmile Network.
Looking forward to learning alot from Mr Kumar today.
I'm looking forward to thisepisode because Sandeep and I
have been talking behind thescenes for a little while and
life has confounded us, hasn'tit, Sandeep?
To get this podcast.
But now we're here, we're readyto go, we're in the flesh.
This is all about Mr Kumar, hisMiSmile Network, the journey
(00:43):
and all the things we've learnedalong the way.
Kumar oh, beg your pardon aboutMr Kumar, his MiSmile network,
the journey and all the thingswe've learned along the way.
Kumar oh, beg your pardon.
Mr Kumar, how are you today?
Dr Sandeep (00:48):
I'm very well and you're okay to call me my first
name, don't worry.
Dr James (00:51):
You don't have to be too formal about it, say Mr
Kumar Sandeep is absolutely fine.
We'll roll with Sandeep.
We'll roll with Sandeep, anyway.
Of episodes I particularlyenjoy, because they're almost
like a biography more thananything else and this sort of
stuff.
A lot of the lessons inbusiness, I'm sure you'll agree.
And when you're growing acompany, there's stuff that the
books just don't teach you.
(01:12):
You just got to figure it out,and what works for one person is
going to be the opposite ofwhat works for someone else.
So it's quite fun to share thisstuff.
So Sandeep started out as adentist and then you were a
dentist for a long time, weren'tyou?
Dr Sandeep (01:27):
Yeah.
So, jim, just a very quickbackground.
I'm qualified as a dentist inIndia and I came to UK in 1998.
When I got here I found outthat my degree was not
recognized so I had to do somequalifying exams.
So I had to go through.
I had to work as a dental nursefor nearly 18 months before I
(01:51):
did my exams and I qualified asa dentist in the UK in 2000.
And here we are.
The rest is history.
Dr James (02:00):
There we are Good stuff and then very quickly into
the world of practice ownershipand then went on to grow and
start my smile, which I'm veryinterested to talk a little bit
about and share a little bitabout that journey, because I
always have a, there's always areally uh, how can I say this?
You know, there's like aspecial place in my heart for
(02:20):
dentists who started businessesthat aren't necessarily dental
practices.
You know like they're relatedto dentistry, but maybe just not
.
you know something a little bitoutside the box, but yeah so
worked as an associate a fewyears, then under got your first
practice.
Is that correct?
Dr Sandeep (02:35):
yeah, so called qualified in 2000, worked as an
associate in a practice for twoyears.
Um, very, very early on, I Ilearned, I understood and no, I
don't want to work for somebodyelse, I just have to.
I have to have built somethingmy own.
I've sat down with my principaland say you know, I'm
(02:55):
considering opening my ownpractice or going somewhere.
Or if you feel the value of usworking together, how do you
think about if we do partnershipor if I buy it".
And he was very good to me.
I learned a lot from him inthose two years and in 2003,
like within two years, inJanuary 2003, I bought
(03:17):
partnership and September 2003,I bought that business.
It was NHS practice to startwith and some of the listeners
may know about, you know, whenthe UDA contract was changed in
2006.
So I worked, you know,exceptionally, exceptionally
hard from 2003 to 2006 and builtthat practice from one surgery
(03:39):
to six surgery Nice, it wasphenomenal.
So we had nearly, you know,close to 50,000 UDAs when the
contract was changed.
So that became the backbone ofmy business really, and from
there onward, just, you know,went on to build different
dental practices and enjoyed thebusiness side of dentistry more
(04:01):
than the clinical.
Dr James (04:02):
There we are and you still got that practice.
Is that right side?
Dr Sandeep (04:04):
of dentistry more than the clinical.
There we are and you still gotthat practice, is that right?
Uh?
Dr James (04:08):
2003 in october, I've sold all my nhs practices to my
dentist okay, so you, you soldup and then you use the cash to
reinvest in other businesses andwhat have you?
And this is such an importantpart of the journey, because I
feel like some, a lot of people,they want the, they want the
chapter like 50.
You know what I mean.
They want to be at that stagewhere they can just go and do,
(04:31):
uh, these amazing things or uh,but what, what?
Maybe what we don't haveexplained to us enough times is
you learn so much through thefirst few companies.
That's what enables you to dothat later.
Would you agree?
Dr Sandeep (04:42):
oh 100.
You know, starting a business,building a business or exiting
out of business are completelythree different skill sets and
you have to go through that as aphases.
So when you're starting out youknow you have to.
There's no such thing calledwork-life balance.
There's no such thing calledweekend and weekdays.
You just have to put your hoursin and work your ass off.
(05:06):
Excuse my language, you knowthere's no other way.
Nobody's going to teach youEarly on.
You do everything what you needto do to build a business.
Then, once you have establishedenough, where you have got
enough infrastructure, when youhave enough people around you,
when the business is establishedenough, that's when you start
to take a foot off the gas andstart working a little bit on
(05:29):
the business and a little bit inthe business.
So there's three levels youhave to go through as a business
owner Hard work, hard work,seven days a week, then step out
a little bit and then runeither an associate-led business
or completely exit out of outof business.
So looking back, you know to,from since 2000, 2000 when I
(05:51):
started working as a dentist, 17years, I went through this
journey of six days a week, cutdown to four days a week, three
days a week, and then in 2017, Idecided to completely quit
dentistry clinical dentistry.
So, yeah, I still run a numberof dental businesses, but, yeah,
it's been.
(06:11):
Yeah, but you have to gothrough that to learn.
No books or anything is goingto teach you when is the right
time.
You know, you track data, youmeasure data, you learn from
data, but data has got its ownplace.
You have to follow your gutfeeling as well.
When you think the time isright to take a step away from
(06:36):
clinical dentistry.
You have to understand themarket.
You have to see what'shappening out there in the world
and then make a right decisionwhen is the time to exit.
So, yeah, these are the skillsI wish.
You know people, people learnthese things or people teach
them in in dental schools, butunfortunately, it doesn't happen
well, on the whole hard workthing, you know, sometimes when
(07:00):
people how can I say this?
Dr James (07:02):
you know, uh, when we talk about hard work, you know I
get sometimes people there's,there can be a little bit of a
backlash from some people, right, because they're like, oh,
we're glamorizing hustle cultureand everything along those
lines.
But to me it's like okay, cool,yes, there is that side to it,
but at the same time, as youwere saying a second ago, it's
just a pragmatic thing.
You know, the more you work is,the more opportunities there
(07:24):
are for you to learn and gatherdata and improve.
And if you compress that andfront load it at the start of
your journey, then to me itmakes life easier later, which
is basically what the workequates to and just getting
things done.
So I always think that's anovel way of looking at it.
Anything you would have donedifferently if you could go back
and talk to Sandeep in 2000?
.
Dr Sandeep (07:44):
You know, looking back, I ask this question myself
all the time Do you think Ihave made mistakes?
Have I made some cock-ups?
Could I have done thingsdifferently?
Absolutely.
Will I go back and changeanything?
Absolutely not, because thosemoments, those times when you
make mistakes, either they'regoing to make you or they're
(08:05):
going to break you.
So one of my habits is you know, when something doesn't go
right, you know you feel emotion, you feel angry, you feel sad,
you feel frustrated, you feelpissed off.
You have to go through thoseemotions and then you know, just
step out of that and take sometime to think about it and learn
why something gone wrong, whatyou could have done differently,
(08:29):
and make some, make some notesor learn from that episode and
make sure you don't repeat it.
And you're going to make someother cock ups and that's
absolutely fine.
That that's how.
That's how.
That's how life goes.
But yeah, will I changeanything?
Absolutely not.
Um, have I made mistakes?
Plenty, we can.
We can do a five-hour podcaston that if you want I'm sure.
Dr James (08:52):
Well it's.
There's a saying that I love,and perhaps some of the
listeners might roll their eyeswhenever I say this, but
whenever it comes to makingmistakes, I always like to
remind myself you either win oryou learn, because the mistakes
are just learning points, rightyou're either going to succeed
or you're learning.
There's no such thing as losingper se, if you have that
attitude anyway.
Question I'm really interestedto ask you this question because
(09:13):
you've obviously ran practicesfor a number of years, close to
a quarter of a decade.
Well, actually, no, it is aquarter of a decade.
You know what I mean?
You're in 2025.
Now there we are.
Uh, what was it going to say?
So do you think practiceownership was easier or harder
back then than it is now?
Dr Sandeep (09:33):
uh, practice ownership easier was much, much,
much easier those days, andI'll tell you why.
Um, I remember when I bought myfirst practice, to get a loan
approved from the bank was likea walk in the park.
I remember I you know it wasclose to around $200,000 or
(09:56):
something.
When I bought my first practicebook, my bank manager even sat
me down and said you know, ifyou need a little bit of
spending money, let us know, wecan give you a little bit more
loan.
Those days getting loans were alot easier than what they are
today.
What else was different was youcould open the NHS practice
whenever you want.
You can open a private practicewherever you want.
(10:18):
It was much, much easier.
You just have to file anapplication and there you go,
you open your practice.
But now things have changed andyou can't do that.
So opening a practice was mucheasier those days.
It's just, you know the redtape and the bureaucracy and
(10:39):
documents and CQCs and all that.
Obviously, these things arevery important, but you know I
do feel for people who arethinking.
You know I spent last couple ofdays traveling.
One day I went up north, oneday I went up south and I met
three of the people who are partof my smile.
(10:59):
They have started theirpractices and it's not easy, my
friend.
Now it's not easy.
There is so much you have tothink about, you have to do.
Um, it is doable.
You know there's lots of peoplelearning successful practices.
But looking back, I think thosedays were, I feel it was much
easier interesting.
Dr James (11:19):
And you know one other thing I was interested to ask
as well.
I mean the number of podcastsI've done on the Denison Invest
podcast with new practice ownersand they're always raving about
social media and how it can berocket fuel, especially if you
want to get a squat potentiallyoff the ground because your
personal brand or your followingwell, that can generate your
(11:41):
patients and lead flow.
How was that done back then?
Was it just good old-fashionedword of mouth?
Dr Sandeep (11:49):
So good old-fashioned.
Going back to the days when Ifirst initially opened my first
private practice in 2007, theonly thing I ever used to do at
that time was yellow pages.
I don't know if you even heardabout those or not.
I know the yellow pages, yellowpages was the go-to.
You need an electrician, youneed a plumber, you need
(12:10):
anything you need you go onYellow Pages and that used to
work really well.
And then radio advertisementbelieve me or not, around 2011,
2012, 2013,.
Radio advertisement used to beprobably the best investment I
used to make in my businessthose days.
And then the print advert, themetros and magazines and all
(12:34):
that that used to work.
And looking back around 2014,2015 time when all this Google,
google search engine, googlepay-per-click when all that came
.
That's when all these mediasstart to die down.
And then we all know aboutFacebook and Instagram, and now
we can't keep track of all thisnew TikTok and all this new
(12:57):
technology.
The most important thing Ithink I teach about this at my
courses as well is I think youknow if I call myself that I've
done okay in my lifetime is, andI think to do that I think one
of the secret has been I'vealways been willing to adapt, to
change.
You know people.
I ask people sometime in thecourse do you know what Google
(13:20):
Pay per click is?
Or do you know what searchengine optimization is?
It's really amazing.
People don't think about thesethings.
And you know dentistry?
Yes, you know we are in thehealthcare profession.
Yes, it's our job to give ourpatients the best smile, the
best oral hygiene, the besthealthy mouth.
(13:41):
But ultimately, you're tryingto run a business, and business
is not just doing dentistry.
The business is marketing.
The business is sales.
The business is marketing.
The business is sales.
The business is how you build ateam.
The business is how do youorganize a patient journey in
your practice?
The business is how do you lookafter and incentivize your team
(14:03):
.
So running a dental practice is, you know, what has completely
changed is early days.
I used to go, patient used tocome and all you do is drill and
fill, drill and fill all day.
But now running a business is avery exciting, but it can be
(14:28):
very complex if you don'tunderstand what you're doing.
Dr James (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, marketing is just one of those
things.
You know it's it's it's sodynamic, isn't it Right?
We've got to keep on top of it,like you have to.
It's essential for yourbusiness.
I'm interested to know, asidefrom all the other things that
we mentioned, do you feel it'smore competitive nowadays versus
back then?
Uh, marketing is obviously very, very competitive oh sorry,
sorry, I might have notexplained that question fully
properly.
What I mean is just, in general, owning a dental practice.
(14:57):
But yes, marketing is acomponent of that.
Dr Sandeep (15:01):
So marketing is very competitive at the moment.
Everybody is trying to doingthe same thing.
They're trying to copy whatother people are doing.
It's how do you stand out of in, how stand out in this
marketplace?
I think that's that's thebiggest challenges, and people
who are doing really well inthis field is, I think, who are
focusing on building their ownpersonal profile, as you have
(15:26):
done with your, you know, withyour dentist to invest.
You've got a brand, you've gota name attached to that.
Everybody knows you.
It's very recognizable brandand people know you, even if
they have not met you, or theyknow People who are really
nailing that personal profile,personal brand.
I think those are the guys whoare really, really winning now.
Dr James (15:50):
I completely agree.
Hopefully people know me, Idon't know, but uh we'll have to
ask the public, won't we?
But, uh, certainly I would sayit does help, and a big part of
that is just being willing toget yourself out there and make
content, because it's a big fearfactor for a lot of people, but
there's so much good stuff onthe other side of it and there's
(16:11):
still lots of opportunities onsocial media even in 2025, if
you ask me, because there's sofew people who are willing to do
it.
Dr Sandeep (16:19):
Yeah, but you know this is a fear people have this
fear of judgment, fear offailure, fear of what other
people will think, fear of thequality of posts, the fear of
how other people are going tojudge you.
But it's about social media isa window shopping, right?
People are looking at youbefore they're going to come and
(16:41):
do business with you.
So if you look at a dentalpractice, somebody's made an
inquiry.
You spend thousands of poundsin marketing.
Somebody's made an inquiry,somebody's made a booking.
The gap between somebody'smaking an inquiry and booking
what people are doing is theyare checking you out.
They're checking your website.
(17:01):
They're checking your socialplatform.
They're checking what sort ofpractice you are.
How do you engage with patients,what the other people are
talking about you, and this iswhere you know the Google.
You engage with patients, whatthe other people are talking
about you, and this is where youknow the Google reviews and
stuff is very important.
It's about making your businesssocial proof.
People want to see that peoplelike them, like going to the
(17:22):
practices like that, and theonly way people can find out
that stuff is on internet andsocial media.
So just by saying I don't liketo be on social media, or I
don't like to do videos or postsor whatever.
It's okay, you know, if that'swhat you prefer.
But I think with that type ofthinking, you're missing a big
(17:45):
opportunity to reach out to massmarket, reach out to reach out
to big audience.
Dr James (17:51):
Well, I once heard well I recently recent-ish heard
social media described as yourdigital CV, which I really liked
.
And it's like people read thepublicly available digital CV
which is your following and yourcontent and your website and
all this stuff, and I justreally liked it when someone put
it like that, because it'sreally visceral.
It's really visual, isn't't it?
Like you wouldn't go to a jobinterview without a cv, like
(18:11):
that's the first rule thatyou've broken right there.
But in a way, a lot of us stillhave yet to develop the digital
cv.
Food for thought, Sandeep.
Yeah, you've obviously takenyour practices from owner
operator led to being associateled.
Yeah, interested to know howdid that journey look for you?
(18:32):
What were the most importantthings that you had to implement
into the business in order tomake that happen?
Dr Sandeep (18:37):
Yeah, so I can very clearly remember when I made
that decision and how thathappened.
So, around 2016 time, I wasworking three days a week in the
clinic and managing sixpractices at that time three
days a week in the clinic andmanaging six practices at that
time and he was, you know,running around and not being
able to do anything with ahundred percent efficiency.
(18:57):
So I made a decision that youknow I can't carry on like this,
something I have to give.
So, after speaking to you knowsome mentors and some of my
close friends I made a decisionthat I'm going to focus on
running a business my closefriends.
I made a decision that I'mgoing to focus on running a
business.
So, during the period of 2017,I empowered my associates, I
(19:22):
hired the right people who aregoing to take care of the
business and I mentally preparedmyself that I am going to have
a huge I'm going to have a hugedrop in my income.
So, because you know, whenyou're running a business, every
principal always feel that theyare the best clinician, they
are the biggest fear and if theystop working, it's going to
impact their bottom line and thereality is it will.
(19:43):
So you have to prepare yourselffor that, and that's what
exactly did.
I hired a couple of goodassociates and you know,
everybody used to.
I used to think that mypatients will leave my practice
they will never come backbecause they're so attached to
me, and I did this really nicely.
I handed over each and everypatient to my associate in a
(20:05):
really you know.
I sat down with my patient andsaid you know, this is what's
going to happen from now, fromnext year on, what I'm going to
stop doing focusing on clinicaldentistry.
But here's the thing I lovedlooking after you over the last
five, six years, whatever thatwas.
Now Oliver is going to take careof you.
Here's my business card Ifthere's any problem, if there's
(20:27):
any challenge or if there's anyquestion you have, you can still
reach out to me.
And remember this if you cantrust me, you can trust Oliver,
and that's why that's how Ihanded over all my routine
patients throughout the 2017.
And he was absolutely fine andyou know, looking back, probably
by far one of the bestdecisions I've ever made.
(20:48):
That gave me a time, that gaveme time to think about things,
that gave me a time to plan, andso people were very, very
crucial the people who you'regoing to leave to run your
business once you go fromowner-operator to owner-only.
Dr James (21:05):
You know what a nice way of saying it, because you
did it in a way that wasempathetic towards the patient
and it also meant that youweren't well tied into the
clinic for longer than youwanted to be, and people people
are more empathetic than we givethem credit for sometimes they
can't expect you to just betheir dentist for 100, you know,
50 years or something like that, you know.
So it's all about how you framethings.
(21:26):
And then you know, you kind oftouched upon this just then, now
that you, when you came out theother side of not being a
principal, are you with methere's doubtless going to be
little things that you realizein terms of, oh, I used to be
normalized to do all this, uh,you know, uh, my back used to
hurt every day and things alongthose lines.
Or now I have so much more freetime to think about, uh,
(21:48):
working on the business ratherthan in the business and hiring
and everything along those lines.
What were those epiphanies ormaybe things that you realized
through doing it?
I know you touched upon it justa second ago.
You got more free time andthings like that.
Was there any other ones inthere?
Dr Sandeep (22:01):
Yeah.
So you know, at that time Isaid I was running about six
clinics at that time and once Itook a step away from that, the
first thing I bought myself wastime, nice, and that gave me
time to analyze what's actuallyhappening in my practice, what's
actually working in my business.
And so one of the things Irealized at that time was it was
(22:24):
actually a big, big gamechanger in my business life was
it came to a point wherepatients was calling us and they
were making inquiries with us,not because they wanted teeth
straightening, not because theywanted orthodontics.
They were actually picking up aphone and calling us and say,
hey, can I have Invisalign?
And it was just.
(22:46):
I remember it was one of themeetings and my team said have
you noticed that people, whoeverare calling us, they are asking
for Invisalign?
And I thought, you know, if thebrand awareness is so good out
there, why don't I buildbusiness, just focus around on
Invisalign?
And you know we looked at thedata.
(23:07):
We made some significantchanges.
We branded our clinics focusedaround Invisalign.
And, looking back, I don't thinkit would have ever happened if
I was busy being busy, if I wasnot had an opportunity.
Yeah, we were collecting thedata, but what's the use of that
data if you're not ever lookingat it?
I start to go around and speakto my team.
(23:29):
You know what's working, whatsort of patients are we getting,
how are we presenting ourtreatment plans, how are we
offering different finance?
Which finance people areaccepting?
So it gave me a time to look atthe data and you know data
speaks a language.
If you understand, data speaksa language.
And yeah, that is the day, andtoday is the day, and since then
(23:52):
I've gone on to build eightbrand new squat practices and
they're all focused aroundInvisalign and, yeah, that's
what it gave me when you have abit more time.
Dr James (24:04):
Yeah, I think it's something.
As you say, you take theinitial hit, don't you?
Income-wise?
Yeah, and I think for a lot ofpeople, and myself included,
that's really tough to swallow.
But in the long run, providingyou keep focused on these bigger
opportunities and buildingother things, there's actually a
lot more money on the table.
It's just being able to say noto a little bit of cash in the
(24:26):
here and now.
It's not just that.
You know, we don't want to makeit out that, it's really simple
, but I feel like that's one ofthe big barriers that is on the
table.
Dr Sandeep (24:33):
You hit a nail on the head.
This is where everybody wantsto take a step away from
clinical.
But they're worried.
They're thinking, if that'swhat I do, my income is going to
drop.
I'm never going to earn whatI'm earning.
Now.
We become very comfortable whatwe'm earning.
Now it's it's, it's becomes.
We become very comfortable whatwe are earning and we don't
want.
(24:53):
Nobody likes to have a drop.
But if you have a strategicplan that, yes, you're going to
have a you know little bit dropfor a couple of months or maybe
a year or so, but you will comeout on the other end and you'll
never, you'll never, never lookback.
Dr James (25:08):
Yeah, it's true, and I've been through that as well.
I definitely have been throughthat.
We're leaving dentistrybasically because it's you know,
I was in a place where, yes,you can go to the clinic and do
really well and have this paypacket that most people, well,
you know, aspire to their wholelives.
(25:28):
But, yes, whilst that ispossible, you know, if you
really aspire to their wholelives, but, uh, yes, whilst that
is possible, you know, if youreally want to build something,
you feel passionate aboutsomething else, the time's got
to come from somewhere, right,so it's just, it's just, uh, how
can I say this?
Well, it's just, yeah, it's amindset thing as much as
anything else.
But, yeah, okay, cool.
And then, obviously, one ofthose projects or one of those
things that you created wheneveryou had a little bit more time
(25:50):
was MiSmile.
Of course, right, that is it.
Yeah, and how is you knowMiSmile as a business model top
down?
For people out there whohaven't heard of it, if we, if
would you be able to just give alittle bit of an explainer?
I'd be interested to just sharethat with the audience, and
then we'll go from there.
Dr Sandeep (26:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd be interested to just sharethat with the audience and then
we'll go from there.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know I started doingInvisalign around 2007.
By 2013, 2014, I was thebiggest provider of Invisalign
outside London.
People heard about me.
People knew me, who I was, andyou know you bump into people
and say, suneep, you know, Iheard you're doing very well.
How do you do your marketing?
What's your patient journeylook like doing very well?
(26:31):
How do you do your marketing?
What's your patient journeylook like?
How do you train your team?
You know, it was just like youknow, as you talk to your
friends in dentistry and yourcolleagues, and these were the
questions every time I go in ameeting, these were the
questions I was coming across.
And then, you know, I had a.
You know, I work very closelywith Invisalign and I sat down
with the team at Align and saidyou know what?
There's a huge opportunity here.
(26:52):
The people are asking us youknow, how do you do your
marketing?
How do I do my Google marketing?
How do I do my social mediamarketing?
How do I train my team?
And I said what about if wecreate a platform where I can
help practices openly to helpthem grow their investment
(27:13):
business?
And as long as it's a viablebusiness model for everybody, as
long as it's a win-win foreverybody, then I would love to
do something like that.
So, yeah, so MiSmile was bornin 2015 in collaboration with
Align Technology.
We started with 20 practicesEverybody who's part of MiSmile.
(27:35):
They pay a monthly contributionand we use that funds to do the
marketing, the training, help,the clinical setup for all of
our MiSmile members and helpthem grow their Invisalign.
And you know it's built on acommercial model with Align
technology and we started with20 practices in 2015.
(27:58):
And today we are close to 150practices in the MiSmile network
.
Dr James (28:04):
Nice and it's primarily online, then, by the
signs of it, is that right yeah?
Dr Sandeep (28:09):
Marketing is primarily online.
So marketing is primarilyonline.
The training is face-to-face.
So we have our key accountmanagers who go to different
practices and help them traintheir teams for the front of the
house treatment coordinators,social media training.
So Once we have created thoseleads, they have to go through a
(28:33):
proper journey to be able toconvert them into ultimate
treatment.
So for that part, we have ourteam who goes in the practices
and then we have a treatmentplanning service which we help
set up all the Invisalign casesand ClinCheck for all of our
MySmilers.
Dr James (28:54):
Interesting.
And then MiSmile is obviouslygrowing 150 practices as we
speak in June 2025.
What's the plan going forwardin MiSmile?
Are you going to remain in theUK?
Are you going to grow it?
Dr Sandeep (29:07):
Yeah, so we launched MiSmile in Poland and in
Nordics.
So we've been testing that inboth of those regions for last
year or so.
Nordics we've been testing thatin both of those regions for
last year or so.
Nordics we have done very well.
So we were having discussionsabout how do we launch actually
the MiSmile network in thoseregions.
So MiSmile is you know.
(29:27):
So I run my courses calledMastering your Invisalign
Business Program.
That's where people come in.
There's a I'm doing onetomorrow where I talk about we
don't talk about teeth, we don'ttalk about clinical, it's all.
It's all about how to build adental practice focusing on a
mesoline and then from there,some people join MiSmile network
program If their area isavailable.
(29:48):
If not, then they join ourMiSmile community.
Dr James (29:52):
So yeah, nordics is our next next market which we're
going to focus on very nice andjust in terms, just pure
curiosity, more than anythingelse in terms in terms of
division of time, because, again, another belief that I held for
a long time, before I had myown businesses, was how does
somebody actually find the timeto do all these things like?
(30:14):
How does that look?
So I'm curious in terms of yourown not, not, not my uh, my, my
own, uh belief that I hold onthose sorts of things is it's
not that I don't have enoughtime, I just haven't figured out
a way to automate it ordelegate it yet.
And then, all of a sudden, whenyou rewire your brain to think
that way, you're like okay, cool, well, we can figure this out.
I just got to do one of thosetwo things.
You can build something as bigas you like, you just have to
(30:36):
get the right amount of leverageor automation, uh, and
delegation.
I'm just interested to know interms of your own time and your
own schedule.
I'm gonna guess it's not quitethe 14, 16 hours a day anymore,
is it?
It's more relaxed than that.
Dr Sandeep (30:51):
So this is uh, this is one thing I learned from.
I don't know if anybody hasheard about a guy called dan
sullivan who runs thesestrategic coaching programs
australian guy right with abeard that is yes, yeah, and
there's one thing I learned fromhim, it was uh who, not how uh
sounding nothing in my businessI'm gonna have to show you this
(31:14):
oh my god, you talked about timeagain I've, I've had this book.
Dr James (31:20):
I had that exact book within arm's reach.
So there we are.
There you go.
That tells you something, huh,and I.
Dr Sandeep (31:26):
I got this about 10 years ago, so that that's
probably where yeah, absolutelywhatever I'm doing, the first
thing I'm thinking is howquickly I'm going to give this
to somebody to do and thisdoesn't become my responsibility
In my whole business, otherthan running Mastering your
Investment Business programs,which I am running them at the
(31:48):
moment.
We're doing about 30, 35 a yearat the moment.
We're doing about 30, 35 a yearat the moment.
Other than that, everything isdelegated to team and you know
that's probably my biggest jobis to find the right people,
look after them, mentor them,coach them and then let them run
the business.
So, you know, I'm not amagician, but I'm very lucky and
(32:11):
blessed to have some amazingpeople around me who are, you
know, incredible, incredible atwhat they do.
And, yeah, they are the oneswho are running the business and
I'm there supporting them,making sure they have got enough
resources to do what they needto do.
Dr James (32:30):
What's that Richard Branson quote?
It's something along the linesof if I need something done, the
first thing I'll do is findsomebody smarter than me and
better than me at that thing andthen hire them.
That's it.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah.
It's such a flip in thinking,isn't it, you know?
Because all of a sudden theonus isn't on you to be the best
at everything.
You know you can be the best atthe thing that you're the best
(32:50):
at, the, and usually for mostpeople there's one to two things
that are really good at.
Dr Sandeep (32:54):
I have to question myself what I'm actually good at
forget about being best at oh,you're just being modest.
Dr James (32:59):
I can tell there's some, there's something in there
, somewhere, I'm sure.
Dr Sandeep (33:03):
I think you know, but I think the bottom best,
that is the people I'msurrounded myself with and I
think you go absolutely what'sthat?
Dr James (33:09):
steve jobs quote?
Um, something along the linesof it.
When somebody asked him, whatdo you do in apple?
Um he's like I don't play theinstruments, I, I play the
orchestra, I'm the, I'm theorchestrator yeah, something
like that, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, anyway, and which is a talent
in and of itself, but no, that's, that's interesting.
You know the kicker about thatbook?
Who, not how?
(33:30):
At the very end he reveals thathe didn't even write it.
He got somebody else who's goodat writing books to write it.
Dr Sandeep (33:38):
Have you noticed that?
You know what I'm not surprised?
You know I don't know that.
You heard I wrote a bookmastering your investment
business.
Mastering your investmentbusiness.
I didn't sat there and wroteevery single paragraph and pages
of that.
I worked with somebody whohelped me to do that and it came
out absolutely fantastic.
Dr James (33:55):
Nice one.
And what about the practices?
I know that obviously my Smileis growing, which is amazing.
The practices you're expandingon that front as well.
Just periodic interest morethan anything else.
Dr Sandeep (34:06):
Yeah, so currently I've run my practices under
three different branches.
One is my Smile, one is SmileStylist and the third one is
Smile with S-M-M-I-L-E.
The basic fundamental of everybusiness is exactly the same.
It's focused and built aroundInvisalign and cosmetic
(34:27):
dentistry.
We have two key people who runevery single dental practice.
Number one who's the practicemanager?
Who takes care of theoperations and people and
equipment and opening hours, andsomething is broken down.
Anything to do with operationsis the practice manager's role.
(34:47):
Then we have another person whois our treatment coordinator.
They are totally responsiblefor the marketing and the sales.
How much money we are spending,how many leads are we generating
, how many people who arebooking their appointment, how
many are not turning up fortheir appointment, how many are
coming in?
How many are going ahead?
So if I need to know about thenumbers and the figures, that's
(35:12):
the person I speak to.
If I'm talking about theoperations of the business,
that's the person I speak to.
And if we have 10 people in ourteam, nobody comes to me.
So I speak to these two people.
If anybody in the team needsanything, it doesn't matter if
they're a dentist or a hygienistor front of the house they go
(35:34):
to these people.
Over the years I have trainedthem, I have coached them, I've
empowered them to manage nineout of 10 things.
But if there's something youknow, no matter how good the
people are, sometimes they getstuck.
And that's the time you know.
They come to me and we sit down, we look at what the problem is
, we look at what the solutionsare and we agree what we're
(35:56):
going to do, and off they go anddo it, and this is how exactly
every business is running.
Dr James (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean it's almost something.
It's one of those things.
It's not that anybody can't dothese things, it's almost we
just shift it's like a littlebit of a shift in our thinking
to empower others to be able tohandle these things, you know,
and being able to say to themlike, hey, you know, here's how
you do it.
Now, what that means is you cango off and do that continuously
(36:24):
.
Or it's like the.
You know the book, the E-Myth.
I don't know if you've everread it.
Yeah, love that book.
Is it great?
Sound deep to the dennis investaudience anybody out there who
is either running a business orthinking about starting a
business in 2025.
Have you got any words ofwisdom for them or things that
(36:45):
you wish you could share withperhaps a younger version of
yourself who was just on at thebeginning of their journey in
business?
Dr Sandeep (36:54):
One thing I realized is none of your dreams or
visions or plans will ever cometrue if you don't have right
people with you.
It's about finding the rightpeople, working with them,
building them, training them.
Sometimes you will makemistakes, sometimes you will end
(37:17):
up hiring wrong people,sometimes things are not going
to work out as you want.
But if you can build a team,for me that is the number one.
The number two is technology.
In today's world, in 2025, youcannot be sitting there doing
impressions.
(37:37):
You cannot be sitting theretrying to explain to patients
what their smile or what theirteeth could look like.
Use technology, usevisualization to really empower
your patients and help them makea decision.
And finally, what I'm seeingout there is people who are
building as real, successfulbusinesses.
(37:58):
They are really focusing onbuilding their own personal
profiles.
So yeah, here you go.
You get these three thingsthere and there about.
I don't think you need to worrytoo much about it.
It's always good to find out how someone has built a
dental empire, so to speak,because there's lots of
learnings and lessons along theway that can help inspire us
dentists to do amazing things,and that's why I have Mr Sandeep
Kumar with me today.
Sandeep Kumar is particularlyinteresting.
He is a UK dentist who's goneon to grow several associate-led
(00:20):
dental practices and theMiSmile Network.
Looking forward to learning alot from Mr Kumar today.
I'm looking forward to thisepisode because Sandeep and I
have been talking behind thescenes for a little while and
life has confounded us, hasn'tit, Sandeep?
To get this podcast.
But now we're here, we're readyto go, we're in the flesh.
This is all about Mr Kumar, hisMiSmile Network, the journey
(00:43):
and all the things we've learnedalong the way.
Kumar oh, beg your pardon aboutMr Kumar, his MiSmile network,
the journey and all the thingswe've learned along the way.
Kumar oh, beg your pardon.
Mr Kumar, how are you today?
Dr Sandeep (00:48):
I'm very well and you're okay to call me my first
name, don't worry.
Dr James (00:51):
You don't have to be too formal about it, say Mr
Kumar Sandeep is absolutely fine.
We'll roll with Sandeep.
We'll roll with Sandeep, anyway.
Of episodes I particularlyenjoy, because they're almost
like a biography more thananything else and this sort of
stuff.
A lot of the lessons inbusiness, I'm sure you'll agree.
And when you're growing acompany, there's stuff that the
books just don't teach you.
(01:12):
You just got to figure it out,and what works for one person is
going to be the opposite ofwhat works for someone else.
So it's quite fun to share thisstuff.
So Sandeep started out as adentist and then you were a
dentist for a long time, weren'tyou?
Dr Sandeep (01:27):
Yeah.
So, jim, just a very quickbackground.
I'm qualified as a dentist inIndia and I came to UK in 1998.
When I got here I found outthat my degree was not
recognized so I had to do somequalifying exams.
So I had to go through.
I had to work as a dental nursefor nearly 18 months before I
(01:51):
did my exams and I qualified asa dentist in the UK in 2000.
And here we are.
The rest is history.
Dr James (02:00):
There we are Good stuff and then very quickly into
the world of practice ownershipand then went on to grow and
start my smile, which I'm veryinterested to talk a little bit
about and share a little bitabout that journey, because I
always have a, there's always areally uh, how can I say this?
You know, there's like aspecial place in my heart for
(02:20):
dentists who started businessesthat aren't necessarily dental
practices.
You know like they're relatedto dentistry, but maybe just not
.
you know something a little bitoutside the box, but yeah so
worked as an associate a fewyears, then under got your first
practice.
Is that correct?
Dr Sandeep (02:35):
yeah, so called qualified in 2000, worked as an
associate in a practice for twoyears.
Um, very, very early on, I Ilearned, I understood and no, I
don't want to work for somebodyelse, I just have to.
I have to have built somethingmy own.
I've sat down with my principaland say you know, I'm
(02:55):
considering opening my ownpractice or going somewhere.
Or if you feel the value of usworking together, how do you
think about if we do partnershipor if I buy it".
And he was very good to me.
I learned a lot from him inthose two years and in 2003,
like within two years, inJanuary 2003, I bought
(03:17):
partnership and September 2003,I bought that business.
It was NHS practice to startwith and some of the listeners
may know about, you know, whenthe UDA contract was changed in
2006.
So I worked, you know,exceptionally, exceptionally
hard from 2003 to 2006 and builtthat practice from one surgery
(03:39):
to six surgery Nice, it wasphenomenal.
So we had nearly, you know,close to 50,000 UDAs when the
contract was changed.
So that became the backbone ofmy business really, and from
there onward, just, you know,went on to build different
dental practices and enjoyed thebusiness side of dentistry more
(04:01):
than the clinical.
Dr James (04:02):
There we are and you still got that practice.
Is that right side?
Dr Sandeep (04:04):
of dentistry more than the clinical.
There we are and you still gotthat practice, is that right?
Uh?
Dr James (04:08):
2003 in october, I've sold all my nhs practices to my
dentist okay, so you, you soldup and then you use the cash to
reinvest in other businesses andwhat have you?
And this is such an importantpart of the journey, because I
feel like some, a lot of people,they want the, they want the
chapter like 50.
You know what I mean.
They want to be at that stagewhere they can just go and do,
(04:31):
uh, these amazing things or uh,but what, what?
Maybe what we don't haveexplained to us enough times is
you learn so much through thefirst few companies.
That's what enables you to dothat later.
Would you agree?
Dr Sandeep (04:42):
oh 100.
You know, starting a business,building a business or exiting
out of business are completelythree different skill sets and
you have to go through that as aphases.
So when you're starting out youknow you have to.
There's no such thing calledwork-life balance.
There's no such thing calledweekend and weekdays.
You just have to put your hoursin and work your ass off.
(05:06):
Excuse my language, you knowthere's no other way.
Nobody's going to teach youEarly on.
You do everything what you needto do to build a business.
Then, once you have establishedenough, where you have got
enough infrastructure, when youhave enough people around you,
when the business is establishedenough, that's when you start
to take a foot off the gas andstart working a little bit on
(05:29):
the business and a little bit inthe business.
So there's three levels youhave to go through as a business
owner Hard work, hard work,seven days a week, then step out
a little bit and then runeither an associate-led business
or completely exit out of outof business.
So looking back, you know to,from since 2000, 2000 when I
(05:51):
started working as a dentist, 17years, I went through this
journey of six days a week, cutdown to four days a week, three
days a week, and then in 2017, Idecided to completely quit
dentistry clinical dentistry.
So, yeah, I still run a numberof dental businesses, but, yeah,
it's been.
(06:11):
Yeah, but you have to gothrough that to learn.
No books or anything is goingto teach you when is the right
time.
You know, you track data, youmeasure data, you learn from
data, but data has got its ownplace.
You have to follow your gutfeeling as well.
When you think the time isright to take a step away from
(06:36):
clinical dentistry.
You have to understand themarket.
You have to see what'shappening out there in the world
and then make a right decisionwhen is the time to exit.
So, yeah, these are the skillsI wish.
You know people, people learnthese things or people teach
them in in dental schools, butunfortunately, it doesn't happen
well, on the whole hard workthing, you know, sometimes when
(07:00):
people how can I say this?
Dr James (07:02):
you know, uh, when we talk about hard work, you know I
get sometimes people there's,there can be a little bit of a
backlash from some people, right, because they're like, oh,
we're glamorizing hustle cultureand everything along those
lines.
But to me it's like okay, cool,yes, there is that side to it,
but at the same time, as youwere saying a second ago, it's
just a pragmatic thing.
You know, the more you work is,the more opportunities there
(07:24):
are for you to learn and gatherdata and improve.
And if you compress that andfront load it at the start of
your journey, then to me itmakes life easier later, which
is basically what the workequates to and just getting
things done.
So I always think that's anovel way of looking at it.
Anything you would have donedifferently if you could go back
and talk to Sandeep in 2000?
.
Dr Sandeep (07:44):
You know, looking back, I ask this question myself
all the time Do you think Ihave made mistakes?
Have I made some cock-ups?
Could I have done thingsdifferently?
Absolutely.
Will I go back and changeanything?
Absolutely not, because thosemoments, those times when you
make mistakes, either they'regoing to make you or they're
(08:05):
going to break you.
So one of my habits is you know, when something doesn't go
right, you know you feel emotion, you feel angry, you feel sad,
you feel frustrated, you feelpissed off.
You have to go through thoseemotions and then you know, just
step out of that and take sometime to think about it and learn
why something gone wrong, whatyou could have done differently,
(08:29):
and make some, make some notesor learn from that episode and
make sure you don't repeat it.
And you're going to make someother cock ups and that's
absolutely fine.
That that's how.
That's how.
That's how life goes.
But yeah, will I changeanything?
Absolutely not.
Um, have I made mistakes?
Plenty, we can.
We can do a five-hour podcaston that if you want I'm sure.
Dr James (08:52):
Well it's.
There's a saying that I love,and perhaps some of the
listeners might roll their eyeswhenever I say this, but
whenever it comes to makingmistakes, I always like to
remind myself you either win oryou learn, because the mistakes
are just learning points, rightyou're either going to succeed
or you're learning.
There's no such thing as losingper se, if you have that
attitude anyway.
Question I'm really interestedto ask you this question because
(09:13):
you've obviously ran practicesfor a number of years, close to
a quarter of a decade.
Well, actually, no, it is aquarter of a decade.
You know what I mean?
You're in 2025.
Now there we are.
Uh, what was it going to say?
So do you think practiceownership was easier or harder
back then than it is now?
Dr Sandeep (09:33):
uh, practice ownership easier was much, much,
much easier those days, andI'll tell you why.
Um, I remember when I bought myfirst practice, to get a loan
approved from the bank was likea walk in the park.
I remember I you know it wasclose to around $200,000 or
(09:56):
something.
When I bought my first practicebook, my bank manager even sat
me down and said you know, ifyou need a little bit of
spending money, let us know, wecan give you a little bit more
loan.
Those days getting loans were alot easier than what they are
today.
What else was different was youcould open the NHS practice
whenever you want.
You can open a private practicewherever you want.
(10:18):
It was much, much easier.
You just have to file anapplication and there you go,
you open your practice.
But now things have changed andyou can't do that.
So opening a practice was mucheasier those days.
It's just, you know the redtape and the bureaucracy and
(10:39):
documents and CQCs and all that.
Obviously, these things arevery important, but you know I
do feel for people who arethinking.
You know I spent last couple ofdays traveling.
One day I went up north, oneday I went up south and I met
three of the people who are partof my smile.
(10:59):
They have started theirpractices and it's not easy, my
friend.
Now it's not easy.
There is so much you have tothink about, you have to do.
Um, it is doable.
You know there's lots of peoplelearning successful practices.
But looking back, I think thosedays were, I feel it was much
easier interesting.
Dr James (11:19):
And you know one other thing I was interested to ask
as well.
I mean the number of podcastsI've done on the Denison Invest
podcast with new practice ownersand they're always raving about
social media and how it can berocket fuel, especially if you
want to get a squat potentiallyoff the ground because your
personal brand or your followingwell, that can generate your
(11:41):
patients and lead flow.
How was that done back then?
Was it just good old-fashionedword of mouth?
Dr Sandeep (11:49):
So good old-fashioned.
Going back to the days when Ifirst initially opened my first
private practice in 2007, theonly thing I ever used to do at
that time was yellow pages.
I don't know if you even heardabout those or not.
I know the yellow pages, yellowpages was the go-to.
You need an electrician, youneed a plumber, you need
(12:10):
anything you need you go onYellow Pages and that used to
work really well.
And then radio advertisementbelieve me or not, around 2011,
2012, 2013,.
Radio advertisement used to beprobably the best investment I
used to make in my businessthose days.
And then the print advert, themetros and magazines and all
(12:34):
that that used to work.
And looking back around 2014,2015 time when all this Google,
google search engine, googlepay-per-click when all that came
.
That's when all these mediasstart to die down.
And then we all know aboutFacebook and Instagram, and now
we can't keep track of all thisnew TikTok and all this new
(12:57):
technology.
The most important thing Ithink I teach about this at my
courses as well is I think youknow if I call myself that I've
done okay in my lifetime is, andI think to do that I think one
of the secret has been I'vealways been willing to adapt, to
change.
You know people.
I ask people sometime in thecourse do you know what Google
(13:20):
Pay per click is?
Or do you know what searchengine optimization is?
It's really amazing.
People don't think about thesethings.
And you know dentistry?
Yes, you know we are in thehealthcare profession.
Yes, it's our job to give ourpatients the best smile, the
best oral hygiene, the besthealthy mouth.
(13:41):
But ultimately, you're tryingto run a business, and business
is not just doing dentistry.
The business is marketing.
The business is sales.
The business is marketing.
The business is sales.
The business is how you build ateam.
The business is how do youorganize a patient journey in
your practice?
The business is how do you lookafter and incentivize your team
(14:03):
.
So running a dental practice is, you know, what has completely
changed is early days.
I used to go, patient used tocome and all you do is drill and
fill, drill and fill all day.
But now running a business is avery exciting, but it can be
(14:28):
very complex if you don'tunderstand what you're doing.
Dr James (14:36):
Yeah, I mean, marketing is just one of those
things.
You know it's it's it's sodynamic, isn't it Right?
We've got to keep on top of it,like you have to.
It's essential for yourbusiness.
I'm interested to know, asidefrom all the other things that
we mentioned, do you feel it'smore competitive nowadays versus
back then?
Uh, marketing is obviously very, very competitive oh sorry,
sorry, I might have notexplained that question fully
properly.
What I mean is just, in general, owning a dental practice.
(14:57):
But yes, marketing is acomponent of that.
Dr Sandeep (15:01):
So marketing is very competitive at the moment.
Everybody is trying to doingthe same thing.
They're trying to copy whatother people are doing.
It's how do you stand out of in, how stand out in this
marketplace?
I think that's that's thebiggest challenges, and people
who are doing really well inthis field is, I think, who are
focusing on building their ownpersonal profile, as you have
(15:26):
done with your, you know, withyour dentist to invest.
You've got a brand, you've gota name attached to that.
Everybody knows you.
It's very recognizable brandand people know you, even if
they have not met you, or theyknow People who are really
nailing that personal profile,personal brand.
I think those are the guys whoare really, really winning now.
Dr James (15:50):
I completely agree.
Hopefully people know me, Idon't know, but uh we'll have to
ask the public, won't we?
But, uh, certainly I would sayit does help, and a big part of
that is just being willing toget yourself out there and make
content, because it's a big fearfactor for a lot of people, but
there's so much good stuff onthe other side of it and there's
(16:11):
still lots of opportunities onsocial media even in 2025, if
you ask me, because there's sofew people who are willing to do
it.
Dr Sandeep (16:19):
Yeah, but you know this is a fear people have this
fear of judgment, fear offailure, fear of what other
people will think, fear of thequality of posts, the fear of
how other people are going tojudge you.
But it's about social media isa window shopping, right?
People are looking at youbefore they're going to come and
(16:41):
do business with you.
So if you look at a dentalpractice, somebody's made an
inquiry.
You spend thousands of poundsin marketing.
Somebody's made an inquiry,somebody's made a booking.
The gap between somebody'smaking an inquiry and booking
what people are doing is theyare checking you out.
They're checking your website.
(17:01):
They're checking your socialplatform.
They're checking what sort ofpractice you are.
How do you engage with patients,what the other people are
talking about you, and this iswhere you know the Google.
You engage with patients, whatthe other people are talking
about you, and this is where youknow the Google reviews and
stuff is very important.
It's about making your businesssocial proof.
People want to see that peoplelike them, like going to the
(17:22):
practices like that, and theonly way people can find out
that stuff is on internet andsocial media.
So just by saying I don't liketo be on social media, or I
don't like to do videos or postsor whatever.
It's okay, you know, if that'swhat you prefer.
But I think with that type ofthinking, you're missing a big
(17:45):
opportunity to reach out to massmarket, reach out to reach out
to big audience.
Dr James (17:51):
Well, I once heard well I recently recent-ish heard
social media described as yourdigital CV, which I really liked
.
And it's like people read thepublicly available digital CV
which is your following and yourcontent and your website and
all this stuff, and I justreally liked it when someone put
it like that, because it'sreally visceral.
It's really visual, isn't't it?
Like you wouldn't go to a jobinterview without a cv, like
(18:11):
that's the first rule thatyou've broken right there.
But in a way, a lot of us stillhave yet to develop the digital
cv.
Food for thought, Sandeep.
Yeah, you've obviously takenyour practices from owner
operator led to being associateled.
Yeah, interested to know howdid that journey look for you?
(18:32):
What were the most importantthings that you had to implement
into the business in order tomake that happen?
Dr Sandeep (18:37):
Yeah, so I can very clearly remember when I made
that decision and how thathappened.
So, around 2016 time, I wasworking three days a week in the
clinic and managing sixpractices at that time three
days a week in the clinic andmanaging six practices at that
time and he was, you know,running around and not being
able to do anything with ahundred percent efficiency.
(18:57):
So I made a decision that youknow I can't carry on like this,
something I have to give.
So, after speaking to you knowsome mentors and some of my
close friends I made a decisionthat I'm going to focus on
running a business my closefriends.
I made a decision that I'mgoing to focus on running a
business.
So, during the period of 2017,I empowered my associates, I
(19:22):
hired the right people who aregoing to take care of the
business and I mentally preparedmyself that I am going to have
a huge I'm going to have a hugedrop in my income.
So, because you know, whenyou're running a business, every
principal always feel that theyare the best clinician, they
are the biggest fear and if theystop working, it's going to
impact their bottom line and thereality is it will.
(19:43):
So you have to prepare yourselffor that, and that's what
exactly did.
I hired a couple of goodassociates and you know,
everybody used to.
I used to think that mypatients will leave my practice
they will never come backbecause they're so attached to
me, and I did this really nicely.
I handed over each and everypatient to my associate in a
(20:05):
really you know.
I sat down with my patient andsaid you know, this is what's
going to happen from now, fromnext year on, what I'm going to
stop doing focusing on clinicaldentistry.
But here's the thing I lovedlooking after you over the last
five, six years, whatever thatwas.
Now Oliver is going to take careof you.
Here's my business card Ifthere's any problem, if there's
(20:27):
any challenge or if there's anyquestion you have, you can still
reach out to me.
And remember this if you cantrust me, you can trust Oliver,
and that's why that's how Ihanded over all my routine
patients throughout the 2017.
And he was absolutely fine andyou know, looking back, probably
by far one of the bestdecisions I've ever made.
(20:48):
That gave me a time, that gaveme time to think about things,
that gave me a time to plan, andso people were very, very
crucial the people who you'regoing to leave to run your
business once you go fromowner-operator to owner-only.
Dr James (21:05):
You know what a nice way of saying it, because you
did it in a way that wasempathetic towards the patient
and it also meant that youweren't well tied into the
clinic for longer than youwanted to be, and people people
are more empathetic than we givethem credit for sometimes they
can't expect you to just betheir dentist for 100, you know,
50 years or something like that, you know.
So it's all about how you framethings.
(21:26):
And then you know, you kind oftouched upon this just then, now
that you, when you came out theother side of not being a
principal, are you with methere's doubtless going to be
little things that you realizein terms of, oh, I used to be
normalized to do all this, uh,you know, uh, my back used to
hurt every day and things alongthose lines.
Or now I have so much more freetime to think about, uh,
(21:48):
working on the business ratherthan in the business and hiring
and everything along those lines.
What were those epiphanies ormaybe things that you realized
through doing it?
I know you touched upon it justa second ago.
You got more free time andthings like that.
Was there any other ones inthere?
Dr Sandeep (22:01):
Yeah.
So you know, at that time Isaid I was running about six
clinics at that time and once Itook a step away from that, the
first thing I bought myself wastime, nice, and that gave me
time to analyze what's actuallyhappening in my practice, what's
actually working in my business.
And so one of the things Irealized at that time was it was
(22:24):
actually a big, big gamechanger in my business life was
it came to a point wherepatients was calling us and they
were making inquiries with us,not because they wanted teeth
straightening, not because theywanted orthodontics.
They were actually picking up aphone and calling us and say,
hey, can I have Invisalign?
And it was just.
(22:46):
I remember it was one of themeetings and my team said have
you noticed that people, whoeverare calling us, they are asking
for Invisalign?
And I thought, you know, if thebrand awareness is so good out
there, why don't I buildbusiness, just focus around on
Invisalign?
And you know we looked at thedata.
(23:07):
We made some significantchanges.
We branded our clinics focusedaround Invisalign.
And, looking back, I don't thinkit would have ever happened if
I was busy being busy, if I wasnot had an opportunity.
Yeah, we were collecting thedata, but what's the use of that
data if you're not ever lookingat it?
I start to go around and speakto my team.
(23:29):
You know what's working, whatsort of patients are we getting,
how are we presenting ourtreatment plans, how are we
offering different finance?
Which finance people areaccepting?
So it gave me a time to look atthe data and you know data
speaks a language.
If you understand, data speaksa language.
And yeah, that is the day, andtoday is the day, and since then
(23:52):
I've gone on to build eightbrand new squat practices and
they're all focused aroundInvisalign and, yeah, that's
what it gave me when you have abit more time.
Dr James (24:04):
Yeah, I think it's something.
As you say, you take theinitial hit, don't you?
Income-wise?
Yeah, and I think for a lot ofpeople, and myself included,
that's really tough to swallow.
But in the long run, providingyou keep focused on these bigger
opportunities and buildingother things, there's actually a
lot more money on the table.
It's just being able to say noto a little bit of cash in the
(24:26):
here and now.
It's not just that.
You know, we don't want to makeit out that, it's really simple
, but I feel like that's one ofthe big barriers that is on the
table.
Dr Sandeep (24:33):
You hit a nail on the head.
This is where everybody wantsto take a step away from
clinical.
But they're worried.
They're thinking, if that'swhat I do, my income is going to
drop.
I'm never going to earn whatI'm earning.
Now.
We become very comfortable whatwe'm earning.
Now it's it's, it's becomes.
We become very comfortable whatwe are earning and we don't
want.
(24:53):
Nobody likes to have a drop.
But if you have a strategicplan that, yes, you're going to
have a you know little bit dropfor a couple of months or maybe
a year or so, but you will comeout on the other end and you'll
never, you'll never, never lookback.
Dr James (25:08):
Yeah, it's true, and I've been through that as well.
I definitely have been throughthat.
We're leaving dentistrybasically because it's you know,
I was in a place where, yes,you can go to the clinic and do
really well and have this paypacket that most people, well,
you know, aspire to their wholelives.
(25:28):
But, yes, whilst that ispossible, you know, if you
really aspire to their wholelives, but, uh, yes, whilst that
is possible, you know, if youreally want to build something,
you feel passionate aboutsomething else, the time's got
to come from somewhere, right,so it's just, it's just, uh, how
can I say this?
Well, it's just, yeah, it's amindset thing as much as
anything else.
But, yeah, okay, cool.
And then, obviously, one ofthose projects or one of those
things that you created wheneveryou had a little bit more time
(25:50):
was MiSmile.
Of course, right, that is it.
Yeah, and how is you knowMiSmile as a business model top
down?
For people out there whohaven't heard of it, if we, if
would you be able to just give alittle bit of an explainer?
I'd be interested to just sharethat with the audience, and
then we'll go from there.
Dr Sandeep (26:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
I'd be interested to just sharethat with the audience and then
we'll go from there.
Yeah, absolutely.
You know I started doingInvisalign around 2007.
By 2013, 2014, I was thebiggest provider of Invisalign
outside London.
People heard about me.
People knew me, who I was, andyou know you bump into people
and say, suneep, you know, Iheard you're doing very well.
How do you do your marketing?
What's your patient journeylook like doing very well?
(26:31):
How do you do your marketing?
What's your patient journeylook like?
How do you train your team?
You know, it was just like youknow, as you talk to your
friends in dentistry and yourcolleagues, and these were the
questions every time I go in ameeting, these were the
questions I was coming across.
And then, you know, I had a.
You know, I work very closelywith Invisalign and I sat down
with the team at Align and saidyou know what?
There's a huge opportunity here.
(26:52):
The people are asking us youknow, how do you do your
marketing?
How do I do my Google marketing?
How do I do my social mediamarketing?
How do I train my team?
And I said what about if wecreate a platform where I can
help practices openly to helpthem grow their investment
(27:13):
business?
And as long as it's a viablebusiness model for everybody, as
long as it's a win-win foreverybody, then I would love to
do something like that.
So, yeah, so MiSmile was bornin 2015 in collaboration with
Align Technology.
We started with 20 practicesEverybody who's part of MiSmile.
(27:35):
They pay a monthly contributionand we use that funds to do the
marketing, the training, help,the clinical setup for all of
our MiSmile members and helpthem grow their Invisalign.
And you know it's built on acommercial model with Align
technology and we started with20 practices in 2015.
(27:58):
And today we are close to 150practices in the MiSmile network
.
Dr James (28:04):
Nice and it's primarily online, then, by the
signs of it, is that right yeah?
Dr Sandeep (28:09):
Marketing is primarily online.
So marketing is primarilyonline.
The training is face-to-face.
So we have our key accountmanagers who go to different
practices and help them traintheir teams for the front of the
house treatment coordinators,social media training.
So Once we have created thoseleads, they have to go through a
(28:33):
proper journey to be able toconvert them into ultimate
treatment.
So for that part, we have ourteam who goes in the practices
and then we have a treatmentplanning service which we help
set up all the Invisalign casesand ClinCheck for all of our
MySmilers.
Dr James (28:54):
Interesting.
And then MiSmile is obviouslygrowing 150 practices as we
speak in June 2025.
What's the plan going forwardin MiSmile?
Are you going to remain in theUK?
Are you going to grow it?
Dr Sandeep (29:07):
Yeah, so we launched MiSmile in Poland and in
Nordics.
So we've been testing that inboth of those regions for last
year or so.
Nordics we've been testing thatin both of those regions for
last year or so.
Nordics we have done very well.
So we were having discussionsabout how do we launch actually
the MiSmile network in thoseregions.
So MiSmile is you know.
(29:27):
So I run my courses calledMastering your Invisalign
Business Program.
That's where people come in.
There's a I'm doing onetomorrow where I talk about we
don't talk about teeth, we don'ttalk about clinical, it's all.
It's all about how to build adental practice focusing on a
mesoline and then from there,some people join MiSmile network
program If their area isavailable.
(29:48):
If not, then they join ourMiSmile community.
Dr James (29:52):
So yeah, nordics is our next next market which we're
going to focus on very nice andjust in terms, just pure
curiosity, more than anythingelse in terms in terms of
division of time, because, again, another belief that I held for
a long time, before I had myown businesses, was how does
somebody actually find the timeto do all these things like?
(30:14):
How does that look?
So I'm curious in terms of yourown not, not, not my uh, my, my
own, uh belief that I hold onthose sorts of things is it's
not that I don't have enoughtime, I just haven't figured out
a way to automate it ordelegate it yet.
And then, all of a sudden, whenyou rewire your brain to think
that way, you're like okay, cool, well, we can figure this out.
I just got to do one of thosetwo things.
You can build something as bigas you like, you just have to
(30:36):
get the right amount of leverageor automation, uh, and
delegation.
I'm just interested to know interms of your own time and your
own schedule.
I'm gonna guess it's not quitethe 14, 16 hours a day anymore,
is it?
It's more relaxed than that.
Dr Sandeep (30:51):
So this is uh, this is one thing I learned from.
I don't know if anybody hasheard about a guy called dan
sullivan who runs thesestrategic coaching programs
australian guy right with abeard that is yes, yeah, and
there's one thing I learned fromhim, it was uh who, not how uh
sounding nothing in my businessI'm gonna have to show you this
(31:14):
oh my god, you talked about timeagain I've, I've had this book.
Dr James (31:20):
I had that exact book within arm's reach.
So there we are.
There you go.
That tells you something, huh,and I.
Dr Sandeep (31:26):
I got this about 10 years ago, so that that's
probably where yeah, absolutelywhatever I'm doing, the first
thing I'm thinking is howquickly I'm going to give this
to somebody to do and thisdoesn't become my responsibility
In my whole business, otherthan running Mastering your
Investment Business programs,which I am running them at the
(31:48):
moment.
We're doing about 30, 35 a yearat the moment.
We're doing about 30, 35 a yearat the moment.
Other than that, everything isdelegated to team and you know
that's probably my biggest jobis to find the right people,
look after them, mentor them,coach them and then let them run
the business.
So, you know, I'm not amagician, but I'm very lucky and
(32:11):
blessed to have some amazingpeople around me who are, you
know, incredible, incredible atwhat they do.
And, yeah, they are the oneswho are running the business and
I'm there supporting them,making sure they have got enough
resources to do what they needto do.
Dr James (32:30):
What's that Richard Branson quote?
It's something along the linesof if I need something done, the
first thing I'll do is findsomebody smarter than me and
better than me at that thing andthen hire them.
That's it.
Yeah, absolutely yeah, yeah.
It's such a flip in thinking,isn't it, you know?
Because all of a sudden theonus isn't on you to be the best
at everything.
You know you can be the best atthe thing that you're the best
(32:50):
at, the, and usually for mostpeople there's one to two things
that are really good at.
Dr Sandeep (32:54):
I have to question myself what I'm actually good at
forget about being best at oh,you're just being modest.
Dr James (32:59):
I can tell there's some, there's something in there
, somewhere, I'm sure.
Dr Sandeep (33:03):
I think you know, but I think the bottom best,
that is the people I'msurrounded myself with and I
think you go absolutely what'sthat?
Dr James (33:09):
steve jobs quote?
Um, something along the linesof it.
When somebody asked him, whatdo you do in apple?
Um he's like I don't play theinstruments, I, I play the
orchestra, I'm the, I'm theorchestrator yeah, something
like that, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, anyway, and which is a talent
in and of itself, but no, that's, that's interesting.
You know the kicker about thatbook?
Who, not how?
(33:30):
At the very end he reveals thathe didn't even write it.
He got somebody else who's goodat writing books to write it.
Dr Sandeep (33:38):
Have you noticed that?
You know what I'm not surprised?
You know I don't know that.
You heard I wrote a bookmastering your investment
business.
Mastering your investmentbusiness.
I didn't sat there and wroteevery single paragraph and pages
of that.
I worked with somebody whohelped me to do that and it came
out absolutely fantastic.
Dr James (33:55):
Nice one.
And what about the practices?
I know that obviously my Smileis growing, which is amazing.
The practices you're expandingon that front as well.
Just periodic interest morethan anything else.
Dr Sandeep (34:06):
Yeah, so currently I've run my practices under
three different branches.
One is my Smile, one is SmileStylist and the third one is
Smile with S-M-M-I-L-E.
The basic fundamental of everybusiness is exactly the same.
It's focused and built aroundInvisalign and cosmetic
(34:27):
dentistry.
We have two key people who runevery single dental practice.
Number one who's the practicemanager?
Who takes care of theoperations and people and
equipment and opening hours, andsomething is broken down.
Anything to do with operationsis the practice manager's role.
(34:47):
Then we have another person whois our treatment coordinator.
They are totally responsiblefor the marketing and the sales.
How much money we are spending,how many leads are we generating
, how many people who arebooking their appointment, how
many are not turning up fortheir appointment, how many are
coming in?
How many are going ahead?
So if I need to know about thenumbers and the figures, that's
(35:12):
the person I speak to.
If I'm talking about theoperations of the business,
that's the person I speak to.
And if we have 10 people in ourteam, nobody comes to me.
So I speak to these two people.
If anybody in the team needsanything, it doesn't matter if
they're a dentist or a hygienistor front of the house they go
(35:34):
to these people.
Over the years I have trainedthem, I have coached them, I've
empowered them to manage nineout of 10 things.
But if there's something youknow, no matter how good the
people are, sometimes they getstuck.
And that's the time you know.
They come to me and we sit down, we look at what the problem is
, we look at what the solutionsare and we agree what we're
(35:56):
going to do, and off they go anddo it, and this is how exactly
every business is running.
Dr James (36:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean it's almost something.
It's one of those things.
It's not that anybody can't dothese things, it's almost we
just shift it's like a littlebit of a shift in our thinking
to empower others to be able tohandle these things, you know,
and being able to say to themlike, hey, you know, here's how
you do it.
Now, what that means is you cango off and do that continuously
(36:24):
.
Or it's like the.
You know the book, the E-Myth.
I don't know if you've everread it.
Yeah, love that book.
Is it great?
Sound deep to the dennis investaudience anybody out there who
is either running a business orthinking about starting a
business in 2025.
Have you got any words ofwisdom for them or things that
(36:45):
you wish you could share withperhaps a younger version of
yourself who was just on at thebeginning of their journey in
business?
Dr Sandeep (36:54):
One thing I realized is none of your dreams or
visions or plans will ever cometrue if you don't have right
people with you.
It's about finding the rightpeople, working with them,
building them, training them.
Sometimes you will makemistakes, sometimes you will end
(37:17):
up hiring wrong people,sometimes things are not going
to work out as you want.
But if you can build a team,for me that is the number one.
The number two is technology.
In today's world, in 2025, youcannot be sitting there doing
impressions.
(37:37):
You cannot be sitting theretrying to explain to patients
what their smile or what theirteeth could look like.
Use technology, usevisualization to really empower
your patients and help them makea decision.
And finally, what I'm seeingout there is people who are
building as real, successfulbusinesses.
(37:58):
They are really focusing onbuilding their own personal
profiles.
So yeah, here you go.
You get these three thingsthere and there about.
I don't think you need to worrytoo much about it.
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