December 5, 2025 • 39 mins
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Thinking about leaving the UK for a better tax deal or a simpler life? We unpack the real calculations behind that decision—from inheritance tax worries and wage inflation to VAT shocks and the tightening margins that push many principals to the brink. Dan Klein, owner of Hive Accountancy in Cornwall, joins us to share what he’s seeing across hundreds of dental clients: frustration is real, but so are the misconceptions about relocation and tax.
We dive into why the “move and save” story is often oversold. There’s no overnight fix; meaningful tax advantages tend to require multi‑year planning, residency commitment, and a clear picture of where you’ll live, when you’ll sell, and how you’ll invest. We explore why some dentists commute from Dubai, where that model makes sense, and where it falls apart. If you’re eyeing a big exit, timing and structure matter more than hearsay—and the best results come when your personal life actually fits the place you plan to call home.
Not everyone needs to move. We talk candidly about dentistry’s “middle age,” where easy growth has faded and operating discipline wins. For some, the smarter play is to stay, run a tight practice, or even step back to a high‑performing associate role while maximising pensions, ISAs, and diversified investing. We compare active vs passive approaches, how to avoid silver‑bullet thinking, and the mindset required to hold through market dips without panicking. Whether you stay or go, the path to a calmer, wealthier future comes from clarity, patience, and a plan you’ll actually follow.
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Disclaimer: All content on this channel is for education purposes only and does not constitute an investment recommendation or individual financial advice. For that, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. The value of investments and the income from them can go down as well as up, so you may get back less than you invest. The views expressed on this channel may no longer be current. The information provided is not a personal recommendation for any particular investment. Tax treatment depends on individual circumstances and all tax rules may change in the future. If you are unsure about the suitability of an investment, you should speak to a regulated, independent professional. Investment figures quoted refer to simulated past performance and that past performance is not a reliable indicator of future results/performance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr James (01:47):
Leaving the UK is a topic hot on everyone's top on
the top top of everyone's mindrather should I say, especially
dentist is the recent tackle andthe general theme of that being
a consistent thesis ofphilosophy of the government for
the next few years.
I'm here today to discussexactly this with Dan Fine,
owner of Hive County Space Gunin Cornwall.
(02:10):
We're gonna be exploring theargument for leaving the UK, the
argument for staying in the UK,and talking about everything
else surrounding that so peoplecan get a real good idea as to
whether or not the grass isalways greener or it isn't.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists who investSmart Money Members Club.
(02:30):
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
(02:51):
on your dental indemnity and a5% discount on lab bills for
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verifiable CPD for this episode.
What's up everybody?
We're here to talk aboutleaving the UK.
(03:12):
Little bit taboo, or is it nottaboo?
I don't even know these days,man, because so many people are
talking about it.
And the reason actually wherethis podcast came from, we came
on today.
We were going to do a podcastabout the budget, and then we
were just catching up offcamera, and Dan was like, you
know what's really hot thesedays?
The fact that everybody'stalking about how they want to
leave the UK.
(03:32):
And we we just want to discussthat today.
We're not just to set therecord straight, we're not gonna
argue for or against, and we'realso gonna leave politics at
the door today.
Politics is for other podcasts,not for us to discuss today.
Um, uh, just to make that clearto everybody, uh, that's that's
not what we're here to talkabout.
We're just here to talk aboutthe ins and outs of the the
(03:53):
arguments for and againstleaving the UK, as we say.
Anyway, Dan, how are you?
Very good, very good, nice tosee you, James.
Hey, likewise, my friend.
I don't know how it's quitetaken us like four years to
actually get a podcast in thediary, but here we are, we
finally made it happen, andwe've made it happen on an extra
juicy subject as well, which Ithink is going to be quite fun
for the audience.
Dan, why did you let's let'srecap, right?
(04:14):
Just to bring the audience intothe picture.
Why why did you uh bring thatup when we were off camera?
You you were saying a lot ofyour clients are asking you
about it, right?
Leaving them.
Dan (04:23):
Yeah, uh yeah, so um in in our kind of accountancy
business, philosophically, we'rewe're uh always trying to act
for our clients to reduce theirtax bill, like that's a kind of
core tenant of how we operate.
So, kind of by that nature, weobviously attract people who
have uh are probably morecommercially minded, more
(04:44):
interested in their business,and more interested in kind of
mitigating as much tax aspossible.
So it's kind of reached thispoint, and we've seen it over
the past few years.
So we've got clients that kindof commute from Dubai and all of
these different things, butcertainly in the last year, more
and more people are structuringtheir tax affairs.
So when they sell theirbusiness or exit, um, they can
(05:07):
immediately relocate to anothercountry, wherever that might be,
uh, that suits their needsmore.
So it was it it really hit homethe other night.
So a long-standing clientthat's a really good chap and
really switched on, it almostjust felt like the last budget
was like the last blow he couldtake.
And he was uh so someone thathadn't, you know, it hadn't been
(05:29):
on his radar before, he's like,I just don't get it anymore.
So it's very, very topical.
We're seeing it across ourclient base.
Like you say, uh, it's not forus to kind of judge or make a
call of it, but I do kind of Ido understand the sentiment
because the way the governmentinherently works is they kind of
(05:50):
levy most of their taxes fromsmall business owners who are
kind of the backbone of theeconomy, um, and all my clients
are small business owners, so wejust feel really squeezed um
and are looking for any options,because even the best solutions
you can get now, it's stillpretty crazy the amount of tax
you've got to pay.
Dr James (06:11):
Indeed.
And would you say there is aspecific tax that is cited as
people's reason to leave, or isit just the general It's the
gener it's the the death of athousand cuts thing?
Dan (06:23):
So like uh and it's probably generational as well.
So like um in kind of my dad'sgeneration, uh you know, um,
you've got an IFA business, soit's very shrewd to kind of
build your pension, make theseinvestments so you can retire
well.
Like, that's really goodadvice.
So my dad had kind ofconservatively done that
throughout his life.
All his mates did it, and nowsuddenly they're being told it's
(06:45):
getting hit with IHT.
So suddenly that um nest eggthat they'd built to pass down
to their family is reduced by40%, and it's because they're
choosing to live in Britain.
So it's kind of like that's alot to suck up amongst the other
stuff as well.
So, you know, I don't think Idon't think many of that
generation are planning on onleaving, but certainly for the
(07:07):
other people, IHT's been a bigdriver.
Um minimum I mean this isn't atax, but minimum wage is uh is a
pretty uh damaging thing.
So over the past five years,minimum wage has gone up by 43%.
So just the challenges ofrunning a business in the UK are
even higher now.
So it's more difficult to makethe money, it's more difficult
(07:30):
difficult to run the businessand have margins, and then if
you do make margins, you'regetting absolutely rinsed for
tax.
So I think it's have you readAtlas Shrugged?
Dr James (07:40):
No, I haven't read that book.
Dan (07:42):
So uh it's written by a lady called Anne Rand.
Uh, she was a Russian immigrantto America in the 20th century,
so she left Soviet Russia.
Dad was a fairly successfulpharmacist.
Um, and I think what they didbecause their flat had extra
bedrooms, they like moved morepeople in.
So we know kind of whathappened in 20th century century
(08:04):
Russia, pretty tough place tobe.
Um, and uh so she relocated tothe states that she loved.
The premise of the book is kindof what I'm saying about small
business owners propping up whatexists, that really productive
people often are the ones thatget squeezed the hardest.
And the the premise of thebook, so Atlas who holds up the
(08:25):
world, eventually might justshrug and give up and stop
holding up the world.
So it's fairly extreme.
She's a fairly polarizingcharacter, but I think that's
the point that a lot of UKdentists have now hit, uh, and
small business owners, they'rejust going, come on, at which
point do we get a break on this?
Uh another, you know, this thisisn't to do with people
(08:48):
leaving, but um school fees, theVAT on school fees thing is
like is rough.
Like it's really rough.
So, you know, many of um I'dprobably say most of our clients
work very hard because they'retrying to, you know, trying to
give their kids a better life.
That's what most people aretrying to do.
Uh, and they, you know, I'm notsaying it is or isn't, but
(09:10):
often people choose that goingto a private school might be you
know be better uh for theirkids.
Uh so it doesn't, it's not likehitting uh anyone that's got
loads of money, it's hittingpeople that might earn what
sounds like a lot of money, butpost-tax and then adding on an
extra 20% is really you know,it's just another one of those
(09:32):
gut gut punches that um maybethis is it, and maybe it's a bit
more ideological that I feelalmost the obligation to the
country uh is changing becauseof how draconian the tax system
is.
Does that make sense?
Dr James (09:49):
It it does, right?
There it's it's like we allhave some level of patriotism,
but it's it's it's gonna bethere's a limit in there, right?
Where someone where you feellike you're just getting pardon
the term mubbed off, basically,I guess, um, is is the is the
feeling.
I'm not saying that's thatthat's that anyone should feel
(10:12):
that way or it's valid, uh, butperhaps some people do.
Um I'm not saying I feel thatway for the record.
Um, but I'm guessing thatthat's what the sentiment is, in
essence.
Dan (10:21):
That that's the sentiment.
So when I first started workingwith dentists uh 13 years ago,
you know, our message was clearat uh um at trade shows,
dentists pay too much tax tax.
So that was the big sign on ourstand.
People would kind of walk past,eye it up, be a bit nervous to
come over, and maybe on thesecond day in the afternoon
(10:42):
they'd creep up and go, right,what can I do about saving tax?
Because it was embarrassing tothink that you'd want to
mitigate your tax bill.
Whereas now, but behind closeddoors, everyone wanted to reduce
their tax bill.
Now it's not the same.
Everyone's everyone's kind oftalking about it and interested
in what can I do?
(11:02):
Because if I don't do anything,I'm gonna be in a really,
really tough spot.
But yeah, the kind of publicsentiment side of it is uh you
don't know about it till you'vebeen there as well.
So um I remember my friend uhwhen he first was reaching the
VAT threshold, he was like, Ohno, I'm reaching the VAT
(11:23):
threshold, uh, but at least it'sonly 20% on stuff after 80
grand.
And I was like, No, it's likeit's all of it, and he couldn't,
I could see like the cogsturning in his head, and he was
like, But that's not fair, andI'm like, Yeah, yeah, like it
isn't really fair, but like youget so used to it as a small
business owner that like, ohokay, that's happening now.
(11:46):
I'm just gonna I'm gonna suckit up and keep moving, and
that's that's part of being anentrepreneur, I suppose.
But it's uh yeah, I definitelyI'd probably say a lot of people
are kind of losing their windum with it and just yeah, that
kind of deepening frustration.
And to be honest, I think it'smore of a like a kind of magical
(12:09):
solution to leave the co for alot of for some people, in
fairness, like it really makessense.
They're maybe not from the UK,they actually want to move back
to where you're where they'refrom, and there's like it's
almost always been on our radardesigning that exit for them so
we can kind of eke out every taxopportunity.
Whereas I think some people arejust looking for anything
that's like this Hail Mary Pass,where oh, do you know if I just
(12:33):
move to that place and I staythere for however long, um, then
I kind of mitigate all thistax.
Um, but yeah, it's it'sdefinitely not as simple, I'd
say.
So usually what happens is uh amate down the pub has kind of
told someone, right, if you moveto X country for three years,
(12:53):
actually you'll kind of save onall of these taxes.
And and actually the the Ithink it's a minimum of seven
years, and it's like pretty,it's it's not obviously the
government haven't made it easyto do it, so you kind of have to
really want to live in theplace that you're moving to as
well.
Uh, which sounds obvious, butlike often that's kind of I
don't know.
(13:14):
Uh it's the there's definitelyno kind of panacea to it, but I
think the perception amongstpeople is like, oh, I can only
do little things in the UK andneed a big thing to to mitigate
this tax, broadly.
Dr James (13:27):
Yeah, I hear you, you know, quick story on the VAT
thing.
I remember when that happenedto me, and I remember what's the
VAT threshold nowadays, like 90grand or something like that.
Dan (13:39):
Uh I do you know what?
I'm not actually sure becausewe work with dentists, but um
the year it happened to me, itwas 85.
Dr James (13:46):
I think it's 99.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
Um, so I remember I was like,Oh, okay, well, at least I've
got my 85 grand tax free nextyear.
And my accountant was like, haha ha ha ha.
He laughed at me down thephone, and I was like, I
actually did him know, and I waslike, Why are you laughing?
Because he just thought thiswas the silliest thing that
anyone had ever said too.
(14:07):
But he's like, No, it'severything from this point
forward.
And I was like, Oh my god, areyou serious?
Because 20% is a lot ofpeople's margin.
Dan (14:16):
Well, it's it's most so the average dental practice in the
UK.
So I see practices I haven'tseen before, maybe kind of two
or three a week, and have donefor the past 10 years.
The average margin, I'd say,after the principal's been paid,
is about three to six percentthat we see.
And that was even when it wasserious.
Most don't make money.
(14:37):
Most dental practices in the UKdon't make money.
Now, there are some, you know,we've got clients that have got
30% EBITDA, like they're reallygood business owners, and
they've really worked hard toachieve it.
Whereas most, the principalgets paid for their dentistry,
kind of like their associate,but they've also got a few
million quid invested insomething that's giving them
(14:58):
zero return.
It's quite often our jobsaying, why don't you just flog
the business, uh, speak toJames, chuck it in the stock
market, uh, get a decent return,not sweat it, you know, like
not have to have a team and getpaid for being a dental
associate.
Dr James (15:14):
Well, yeah, I mean, do you want my answer to that?
Is a quick quick assessment.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
A lot of people, I thinkthey're they're trained
subconsciously to think thatthis is just their life, right?
And they can't change things,you know.
And it's like you can get, youknow, definitely not financial
advice, yeah, but you can get10, 11, 12% every single year on
(15:37):
average in the stock marketwithout really doing anything
when you have the right fund.
Okay.
Um, obviously that doesn't itdepend there's a few variables
in there, it depends onsomeone's age, it depends on
when they need the money.
Like I say, if you're not sureabout that, definitely speak to
a good financial planner.
But the headline is that thatis possible, right?
Uh you just gotta know how it'sdone, of course.
(15:58):
Um, but yeah, no, you're right.
Like it's like um well the thethe only yeah, yeah.
The one thing about businessalthough to counterbalance that,
the one thing about yourbusiness though is even though
you are working in it, it willgive you cash flow.
But then again, you can justbecome an associate, can't you?
So you've kind of got you'rekind of in the same place
anyway.
And and I know I know loads ofpeople who sold their practices
(16:18):
and just went and worked as anassociate because they're just
like, I'm getting paid more andI'm working two days a week and
I don't have to think about itafterwards.
Anyway, subject conversationfor another day.
But yeah, so yeah, the the umwhere I was going with that was
I was yeah, I was I wasinterested to know, yeah, just
as we were saying earlier, theredoesn't seem to be what well, I
mean, from what you're saying,there's a general frustration
(16:40):
with the tax situation in theUK.
There's a few taxes that arebeing cited, but it's not like
there's one in particular thatis like the totem, the the
obelisk of uh the the the thethe dentist's ire, so to speak.
Uh but yeah, okay, cool.
So interesting one, and I don'tquite know if this is something
that you you're your uhnecessarily, this is your forte
(17:02):
per se.
And we kind of touched on thisearlier.
How easy is it to just uprootand go to another country and
pay less tax?
Is it not a process?
Does it not take time?
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Dan (19:05):
Yeah, I mean the devil's very much in the detail in what
you're trying to do.
So, like I say, we've gotprobably more clients than you'd
think that actually do umharness the advantages of being
in Dubai and just fly in to do afew days dentistry a month.
So that that exists, um, buteach case is obviously
individual, how they'vemitigated it.
(19:26):
Um, but definitely if you'relooking at capturing as much tax
upside from your big exit, sowhen you sell your practice all
practices, um there's like noslam dunk, and you have to be
very it's actually the same forany tax thing.
You have to be very clear aboutwhat you want to do.
It's it's what you were sayingabout financial planning, like
there's no off-the-shelffinancial plan for anyone, like
(19:49):
you need to actually do theplanning and it but and you also
need to stick to the planningas well, which a lot of people
don't realise.
There's kind of there's nobutton you can press that gives
you the tax saving.
But if you know that you wantto retire to the south of France
in 10 years' time and you'relooking to sell this asset for
five million quid, we we canhelp at that point, type thing.
(20:12):
So we can kind of put things inplace that harness every
percentage point possible.
But if suddenly that stopsbeing the south of France and it
needs to be 20 million quid andsomething changes, then you
might have missed the taxopportunities that you could
have got um had you been clearabout what you really wanted in
advance.
Dr James (20:32):
I see, so it's definitely not something that
you just overnight stop payingor start, you know, overnight
you pay less tax.
Uh so um that's a good thing toknow because that goes
somewhere to shattering the kindof grass is always a greener
illusion.
Dan (20:50):
That's probably the I mean it's the perfect analogy, and it
is that the mate down the pub,there'll always be someone you
speak to that has this slam dunksolution for you.
And I think yeah, I thinkthat's definitely the sentiment
amongst the client base thatit's some level of kind of
exhaustion of the goalpostskeeping moving and going,
(21:10):
there's just got to be somewherewhere I can get to that greener
grass, and it's just kind ofnot the case.
Because yeah, I think that'sthe other frustration that you
know, like no comment on thepolitical elements, but it's not
like there is a a party thatcould get voted in that is
pro-smus.
Do you know what I mean?
So there's not like a kind ofdemocratic solution, it's just
(21:32):
like if you're gonna be in theUK, uh so yeah, if you earn a
hundred and fifty K in the UK,your tax contribution is the
same as twenty one people onminimum wage.
Like that's pretty crazy.
You run that by me again justso I can appreciate if your if
your wage is what sorry 150k150k you will be paying actually
(21:55):
more tax than 21 people onminimum wage, and that's no
comment on people on minimumwage, it's just a fact that if
you're if you cross that 50kthreshold and become successful,
you just suddenly get rinsed.
I was trying to explain.
Well, actually, yeah, I wasn'ttrying to explain, he did
understand it, but my nephew'strying to get uh become a lawyer
(22:15):
of saying, look, if there's ajob for 50 grand or a job for 70
grand, like don't necessarilygo for the money because
actually that 20 grand upsideisn't 20 grand in your pocket,
you'll get absolutely rinsed onit.
So you will have objectivelymore cash, but not as much as it
looks like.
So do kind of go for the betteropportunity, not the cash
(22:36):
today.
And that's reallycounterintuitive, but it's the
reality that anything after that50 grand mark, you get rinsed.
And I don't know, I thinkprobably my opinion when I was
uh younger was like, well, if Iwas earning 50 grand, I'd be
happy, you know, I'd be happyenough because I'd have loads of
money, and then you're like,yeah, it's not actually as much
money as it feels.
Dr James (22:56):
Interesting.
And you know what we could veryeasily do in this podcast, we
could get into all the ways youcould mitigate taxes in the UK,
but we're actually not going todo that today because there's
loads of podcasts that we'vedone um on that before.
This is more of a little bit ofa philosophical uh discussion
more than anything else.
And in your opinion, I knowobviously, Dan, it's very hard
to comment.
(23:17):
Um in your well, actually, justbefore I ask that question,
Dan, in your 13 years, I thinkyou said earlier experience
working with Dennis, has the hasthe theme been that taxes
consistently rise at this rate?
Is that what you've you'venoticed?
Have they always been going up?
Dan (23:34):
Yeah, um, and the and the pressures, I suppose, of having
a dental practice.
So, I mean, it's alwayschallenging to have any business
at any time because you knowthere's people in it, etc.
So the you know, that's thecaveat.
I'm not trying to bedisparaging, but um buying a
dental practice or having adental practice when I first got
(23:54):
into it was a bit like uhbuying property in the year 2000
in London.
Like you weren't the shrewdestproperty, you didn't have to be
the shrewdest property investor,just inflation happened, the
value of the the property wentup, and that kind of happened in
dentistry.
So I think the GDP spend ondentistry went up three or four
(24:15):
times over that decade.
So it was just demand wasincreasing, high-value
treatments appeared, um, andkind of if you're in the party,
you do pretty well from it.
And that would that was myearly experience in dentistry.
Um, so yeah, it's not just atax position that's got worse.
It's like um, so you know, whenyou're a teenager, you can kind
of go out every night of theweek, still get a place bought
(24:37):
on Saturday, feel great, lookgreat.
Uh, then suddenly you hit 30and you go, hang on, I probably
should look at my diet here andstart exercising a bit more, and
then you kind of creep moretowards that middle age point,
and uh suddenly you have toreally think about this stuff.
Dentistry's just in middle agenow, so it's not like it's it's
just harder than it was.
Um, so that's why you knowwe're discussing my advisory
(25:00):
service earlier, and it'ssomething I take really
seriously because actuallydelivering advice eight years
ago was quite straightforward.
It was like put some businessinfrastructure in place, invest
in marketing, you know, look atwhat your associates are
grossing.
More or less everyone would dopretty well from doing just
that, whereas now it's just muchmore complicated.
(25:21):
But I'm still seeing some quitescary advice being given, to be
honest, like as if it's likethe olden days.
So, like, you know, um someonewas looking on taking that on
this crazy investment, which forthem to make it so they've got
a practice that turns over about300k.
They're not my advisory client.
Uh, they were looking on takingit on a site that would have to
(25:43):
turn over four million quid forit to for the numbers to stack
up, and their advice from theiradvisor was does this align with
your ad your vision?
That's what the the advisorasked them.
Uh and they said yeah, and hesaid, crack on, do it.
It's like, what they're gonnaend up bust.
Like there's absolutely there'snothing in their track record
that suggests, you know, like ifmy best client said, by the
(26:06):
way, I'm gonna set up a squat,the threshold for success is
four million quid.
I don't know, I'd be like, uh,do you really isn't there easier
ways we can uh we can make someupside here?
But that's that's the industry.
It's um yeah, that that is atheme of this year that I felt a
bit gaslit by a lot of thestuff I was seeing and reading
(26:30):
because I get to see the numbersof hundreds of dental
practices, so I know what'shappening in the industry, um,
and it's not reflectednecessarily by what you see on
LinkedIn or whatever.
I'm I'm not actually on any ofthe dental groups on Facebook,
uh, so I don't know what that'slike.
You'll obviously have a muchstronger insight into that.
Um but yeah, I was kind ofworried that I don't know, the
(26:55):
industry hadn't really woken upto the fact that it's in middle
age.
Um, but definitely I don'tknow, towards the end of this
year, it it's changed, likepeople are really getting in
contact.
And that yeah, I don't knowwhat your opinion on it, but I
the switch from being a dentistto a business owner is not like
(27:15):
an like it's not an like apromotion.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's it's like you've beensuper structured to qualify as
a dentist.
You had to like when did youhow old were you when you first
thought you were gonna be adentist?
Dr James (27:29):
Uh I think I was 17 when I decided, and then 25 when
I qualified, something alongthose lines.
Dan (27:37):
Super, super yeah, yeah, like that's pretty structured
how you get to that point, andthen suddenly people get to 30
and they're really good at theircraft, and they go, right, I'm
gonna buy a business.
Like that's a crazy movesideways.
Like, I I don't think it shouldbe necessarily a good step.
If you want like financialsecurity, a nice life, and
(28:00):
control over your work-lifebalance, like be a really good
associate, set up a limitedcompany, put money in a pension.
Uh, this isn't uh financialadvice because I was also gonna
say buy some Bitcoin as well,but that's my personal uh
personal uh preference oncertain things.
But do you know what I mean?
Like that's pretty robust.
You're gonna do fairly well,yeah.
Dr James (28:22):
Well, it's it's it's again not financial advice, it's
the conventional tried andtested way to get rich, isn't
it?
Right, just make make a goodwedge, you know, make enough to
have balanced life and be happyin the in the here and now, and
then set some away in either insome sort of tax vision for
investing vehicle like a nicerpension, and let it compound to
(28:44):
infinitum, right?
And that is that is the way Ithink pretty much millions of
people across the world have gotrich.
And even if you do that, evenif you do that extremely well,
okay, I was reading a stat theother day.
Um, what was it?
95% of people in the UK don'town a stock outside of a
(29:07):
pension.
Now what you gotta remember isthere's a lot of workplace
pensions, yeah, right?
Which own stocks, which buysstocks on people's behalf.
So basically, in other words,probab only like five percent of
people actually have ISAs oractually have GIAs, right?
That have invested in a stock,yeah.
(29:28):
So um that is a crazy that is atruly crazy stat.
It's literally only one in 20.
Yeah.
And it kind of when you'veactually bought a stock in an
ISA or a GIA, it actuallysuggests you've got a little bit
of interest in these sorts ofthings as well.
So, in other words, the other19 out of 20 either don't know
it, don't care.
So literally 95% of people.
(29:49):
So by the sheer fact you set upan ISA and bought a stock,
you're in the top 5%, yeah.
And then what I'll what I willsay personally from personal
experience, just through havingthese sorts of conversations
with dentists a million timesover the phone, because they'll
pick up the phone and it kind ofcomes with a territory that
they'll share things about theirfinancial situation with me
that they might necessarilynecessarily share with other
(30:11):
people, and they'll tell meabout their ICN of pension, and
I'll think to myself, hmm, Imean, you've obviously got, you
know, you've obviously donesomething, right?
Like you've got a reasonablygood, you've got a handle on
what to do, but it's probablyonly two or three times that I
can think of that I've that orit you know, definitely at least
count on two hands, right, outof those sorts of conversations
(30:33):
that I've thought to myself,right, you have actually got
this dialed in, like you're it'scompletely optimized for you.
Okay.
So of that five percent, likeliterally 0.1%, have it
optimized, optimized.
So what I'm saying is to comefull circle, is if you do what
you're saying and do itextremely well, you're still in
the the top 0.1%.
And like to be a business ownerand be in the you know, to be a
(30:58):
business owner and make itsuccessful, um it's way harder,
in my opinion.
Dan (31:03):
Right, and it's just way way less predictable.
It's way predictable, and it'sit's just you know, I love it.
I think that's a thing.
Like I I love doing it.
We both like reading books onbusiness, we like it.
Uh sometimes I don't like it.
You know, like I I kind of whenI'm speaking to people, I think
if you can love your job 20% ofthe time, then that's probably
(31:24):
quite a good result.
I don't know if that's low,low.
Some people I tell they're likecrikey, and it's not that I
hate it, you know, four days ofthe week.
It's just you know, I I want toget that that joy from it, but
most of the time it's justWhatsApp kind of gut punch,
email gut punch, right?
What do I do about this?
But I I like that you knowthat's it's a it's a big part of
(31:45):
my identity, so you should havea business if you're like that.
Um and it can't just be aboutcommercial return because like
you said, like the the smartmoney is kind of get your head
around investment.
Also, I mean this is the thing,and it you don't have to say,
but like in the years where I'vemade significant wealth gains,
(32:08):
I've also made significantwealth losses because that's
when you're learning.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you can't just do perfectinvestment from day one.
You actually have to commit tothis and figure it out.
And like you say, maybe in 10years you might have figured it
out where everything's in lineand you're like really rock
solid with it, but you know,there's no I don't know.
(32:32):
I think well, it's it's theleaving the country thing.
There is no silver bullet, likeyes, like if you want to invest
in the stock market, you willhave to invest in the stock
market, and you'll not just haveto do that, you'll have to keep
it there when it dips, which isscary and hard, and people
struggle with that.
Dr James (32:51):
Yeah, and you know, I know this is getting slightly
off topic now, but in a weirdway, in business or investing,
you don't want to make too muchmoney too fast, especially at
the start, because guaranteeyou, you will think you're God's
gift, and you will think thatyou've got the mightest touch,
and you will spend your way youwill spend the vast majority of
it back to where you werebefore, virtually always.
(33:12):
You you wanna you wanna get thebattle scars, you want to get
the knowledge and get theexperience, right?
It's it's actually that that'smore valuable, okay?
And then the money comes afterthat, and then you're way more
likely to retain the moneybecause you can actually sense
what a good opportunity isversus isn't.
And I I the only reason it'sthere, that is uh that's
basically what happened to mefor for extreme years.
Dan (33:33):
And that's I I don't know anyone that was into that has
been into it that it has someversion of it hasn't happened.
There's a really good uh Ithink it was from Michael Saylor
tweeted the other day that likeif you bought hundred dollars
of Bitcoin in 2010, it's worthfour billion today.
It's not really true becauseyou also had to see it go to ten
grand, then down to five andnot sell it, and then you had to
(33:55):
see it go up and down and notsell it.
Like it's not a simple like,oh, I did one trade, I'm
suddenly a billionaire.
It's like then you've got tohold on to it.
So and yeah, and then you'vegot to how do you hold on to it?
Do you have it ondecentralized?
Do you have it on Coldstock?
All of these questions, and youhave to make tons of mistakes,
(34:15):
and uh you have to invest inthings like Luna as well, and uh
wake up one morning and uh andhad a bit of a crash.
But it's you know, I do thinkcrypto's an amazing teacher
because the feedback's so quickon it going wrong.
Um, so yeah, again, notfinancial advice, definitely
don't take it from me.
Um, but like I think, yeah, Ithink that's what we say, Joe.
(34:38):
I wonder, yeah, wonder whatyour take on it is as well.
Like, invest in things that dointerest you.
So, like we we often say, like,have a few different investment
categories.
So, stocks and shares kind ofprobably something you should be
doing.
You might have your business,uh, but we've got more and more
clients who are like quiteheavily invested, you know, like
(34:59):
hundreds of thousands of poundsin whiskey.
And like, there's a fairlycompelling uh uh thesis behind
them doing it, and I think it'sto do with the emerging whiskey
market in Asia.
Um, and they're interested byit and it works for them.
So I'm like, that's that's goodbecause you're more likely to
read something about that ifyou're into it type thing.
So yeah, we do see that quite abit.
Dr James (35:22):
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think that if you're gonna be
it's it comes down to the activeand passive thing, you know,
like invest in things, it's justeasier for you to make money.
If you're gonna be if you'regonna be a passive investor,
then you'll only ever really getthe average of any market,
right?
Like Bitcoin is kind of theaverage is is in a way like an
ETF of the crypto market in a ina kind of abstract way, shall
(35:45):
we say?
Yeah.
So if you're gonna invest insomething passively, then you
kind of need to know a certainamount about the asset that
you're investing in.
If you're gonna be an activeinvestor, and that counts, I'm
gonna include actively tradingin that category or actively
running a business, then for me,you're better off just picking
(36:06):
one asset and knowing theabsolute shit out of it.
Because if you're gonna beactive, you have to be able to
beat everyone else, like there'sgonna be an average that you've
got to be able to make moremoney relative to everybody, and
in that sense, it'scompetitive.
And in order to do that, youneed to know more and be better
at it, right?
So I think for me, um, thesecond I'm deciding you can only
(36:27):
really be truly active in maybeone to two areas because you
just there's just not enoughspace in your brain, otherwise.
That's my thesis on that.
Um, and for me, it's like okay,if you're going to run a dental
practice and do it extremelywell, because you're actively
participating in the business,then absolutely learn the
absolute hell out of how to runone really well, and uh then
you're maximizing the odds ofyou beating everybody else.
(36:49):
But yeah, anyway, Dan, I've gota question for you.
Will you leave the UK?
Dan (36:54):
Uh I won't.
I definitely I'd like do youknow what it's actually a relief
for me to know that I won't, ifthat makes sense.
It just makes it you know, I uhI live in Cornwall, which is
not where I'm from originally,but I love it here.
Um and I, you know, I like Ilike the country, I like
Britain, so I'll be stickingaround.
Um, I mean I say that, and I'msure there's something,
(37:16):
something the government coulddo that could tip me over the
edge.
But yeah, it's it's definitelyvery much how do I um still
compete in this environment, andmainly how do I make enough
money so my kids can afford tohave some quality of life and
not worry about it because I dothink it's gonna be way tougher
for them.
Well, I mean, we know I thinkum my parents bought their first
(37:39):
house, so it was like threeyears' salary was the cost of
their first house.
Whereas what's it now?
It's like 20, 25 years orsomething, um, I think is the
average in the UK.
So gosh knows what it'll be bythe time my kids come to buy a
house.
So that that's the main themain drive.
Um, but yeah, I'd try and I'dalso say, because there's kind
(38:00):
of negativity around it, butthere's still, yeah, you've kind
of got your two paths, be anassociate.
There's a very well-troddenpath to getting rich that still
works, you just have to own it.
Or if you love having abusiness, be a business owner,
and to some degree it's the sameas it ever was, it's just
there's a few more hurdles toget over.
(38:21):
So it's kind of crack on, uh,yeah, and try and do it with a
smile on your face, I think isthe uh is the main thing.
Boom.
Dr James (38:28):
And any hmm, just out of interest, I don't know if you
can quite answer this question.
If not, we can we can cut itout.
But if you can, is there anysuccess stories that you can
share with us of people that youknow who have moved away, all
anonymized, of course?
Dan (38:45):
Um, there is so the big kind of transactions that there
are a few clients that are verywell aligned to harness
significant tax advantagesbecause they're planning for
their exit today, even thoughit's five five years away.
So I'd say it's absolutelyworth a conversation.
Uh at the moment, the peopleharnessing it, it mainly is
(39:05):
actually just people kind ofcommuting from Dubai.
Um, but the big like swervingloads of taxes, it hasn't
happened yet because they kindof have been structuring it
through the this year, butthey're very, very well set to
have a good exit in the future.
Dr James (39:21):
Interesting.
So, in essence, really we gottathink ahead, it's not an
overnight thing.
And in order to do thisproperly, if someone was to
leave the UK uh in order tominimize their tax bill or to
become tax efficient, thenreally it's about how can I say
this, well get gettingstrategic.
Uh, and uh that would be themain takeaway, I guess, really.
Dan (39:44):
Get get clear on what you want, um, and get strategic and
get a good advisor, and theyshould be able to get you
significant advantages.
Leaving the UK is a topic hot on everyone's top on
the top top of everyone's mindrather should I say, especially
dentist is the recent tackle andthe general theme of that being
a consistent thesis ofphilosophy of the government for
the next few years.
I'm here today to discussexactly this with Dan Fine,
owner of Hive County Space Gunin Cornwall.
(02:10):
We're gonna be exploring theargument for leaving the UK, the
argument for staying in the UK,and talking about everything
else surrounding that so peoplecan get a real good idea as to
whether or not the grass isalways greener or it isn't.
As ever, you can claim your CPDfor this episode within the
official Dentists who investSmart Money Members Club.
(02:30):
Smart Money Members Club alsoincludes multiple mini courses
and webinar series on financefor dentists, including how to
become as tax efficient aspossible, as well as
understanding investing.
All of this content counts asverifiable CPD, and you can
download your certificates thereand then upon completion of
each lesson.
In addition to this, we alsoinclude a whopping 10% discount
(02:51):
on your dental indemnity and a5% discount on lab bills for
dental principals, amongst otherperks and discounts for
members.
Please use the link in thedescription to claim your
verifiable CPD for this episode.
What's up everybody?
We're here to talk aboutleaving the UK.
(03:12):
Little bit taboo, or is it nottaboo?
I don't even know these days,man, because so many people are
talking about it.
And the reason actually wherethis podcast came from, we came
on today.
We were going to do a podcastabout the budget, and then we
were just catching up offcamera, and Dan was like, you
know what's really hot thesedays?
The fact that everybody'stalking about how they want to
leave the UK.
(03:32):
And we we just want to discussthat today.
We're not just to set therecord straight, we're not gonna
argue for or against, and we'realso gonna leave politics at
the door today.
Politics is for other podcasts,not for us to discuss today.
Um, uh, just to make that clearto everybody, uh, that's that's
not what we're here to talkabout.
We're just here to talk aboutthe ins and outs of the the
(03:53):
arguments for and againstleaving the UK, as we say.
Anyway, Dan, how are you?
Very good, very good, nice tosee you, James.
Hey, likewise, my friend.
I don't know how it's quitetaken us like four years to
actually get a podcast in thediary, but here we are, we
finally made it happen, andwe've made it happen on an extra
juicy subject as well, which Ithink is going to be quite fun
for the audience.
Dan, why did you let's let'srecap, right?
(04:14):
Just to bring the audience intothe picture.
Why why did you uh bring thatup when we were off camera?
You you were saying a lot ofyour clients are asking you
about it, right?
Leaving them.
Dan (04:23):
Yeah, uh yeah, so um in in our kind of accountancy
business, philosophically, we'rewe're uh always trying to act
for our clients to reduce theirtax bill, like that's a kind of
core tenant of how we operate.
So, kind of by that nature, weobviously attract people who
have uh are probably morecommercially minded, more
(04:44):
interested in their business,and more interested in kind of
mitigating as much tax aspossible.
So it's kind of reached thispoint, and we've seen it over
the past few years.
So we've got clients that kindof commute from Dubai and all of
these different things, butcertainly in the last year, more
and more people are structuringtheir tax affairs.
So when they sell theirbusiness or exit, um, they can
(05:07):
immediately relocate to anothercountry, wherever that might be,
uh, that suits their needsmore.
So it was it it really hit homethe other night.
So a long-standing clientthat's a really good chap and
really switched on, it almostjust felt like the last budget
was like the last blow he couldtake.
And he was uh so someone thathadn't, you know, it hadn't been
(05:29):
on his radar before, he's like,I just don't get it anymore.
So it's very, very topical.
We're seeing it across ourclient base.
Like you say, uh, it's not forus to kind of judge or make a
call of it, but I do kind of Ido understand the sentiment
because the way the governmentinherently works is they kind of
(05:50):
levy most of their taxes fromsmall business owners who are
kind of the backbone of theeconomy, um, and all my clients
are small business owners, so wejust feel really squeezed um
and are looking for any options,because even the best solutions
you can get now, it's stillpretty crazy the amount of tax
you've got to pay.
Dr James (06:11):
Indeed.
And would you say there is aspecific tax that is cited as
people's reason to leave, or isit just the general It's the
gener it's the the death of athousand cuts thing?
Dan (06:23):
So like uh and it's probably generational as well.
So like um in kind of my dad'sgeneration, uh you know, um,
you've got an IFA business, soit's very shrewd to kind of
build your pension, make theseinvestments so you can retire
well.
Like, that's really goodadvice.
So my dad had kind ofconservatively done that
throughout his life.
All his mates did it, and nowsuddenly they're being told it's
(06:45):
getting hit with IHT.
So suddenly that um nest eggthat they'd built to pass down
to their family is reduced by40%, and it's because they're
choosing to live in Britain.
So it's kind of like that's alot to suck up amongst the other
stuff as well.
So, you know, I don't think Idon't think many of that
generation are planning on onleaving, but certainly for the
(07:07):
other people, IHT's been a bigdriver.
Um minimum I mean this isn't atax, but minimum wage is uh is a
pretty uh damaging thing.
So over the past five years,minimum wage has gone up by 43%.
So just the challenges ofrunning a business in the UK are
even higher now.
So it's more difficult to makethe money, it's more difficult
(07:30):
difficult to run the businessand have margins, and then if
you do make margins, you'regetting absolutely rinsed for
tax.
So I think it's have you readAtlas Shrugged?
Dr James (07:40):
No, I haven't read that book.
Dan (07:42):
So uh it's written by a lady called Anne Rand.
Uh, she was a Russian immigrantto America in the 20th century,
so she left Soviet Russia.
Dad was a fairly successfulpharmacist.
Um, and I think what they didbecause their flat had extra
bedrooms, they like moved morepeople in.
So we know kind of whathappened in 20th century century
(08:04):
Russia, pretty tough place tobe.
Um, and uh so she relocated tothe states that she loved.
The premise of the book is kindof what I'm saying about small
business owners propping up whatexists, that really productive
people often are the ones thatget squeezed the hardest.
And the the premise of thebook, so Atlas who holds up the
(08:25):
world, eventually might justshrug and give up and stop
holding up the world.
So it's fairly extreme.
She's a fairly polarizingcharacter, but I think that's
the point that a lot of UKdentists have now hit, uh, and
small business owners, they'rejust going, come on, at which
point do we get a break on this?
Uh another, you know, this thisisn't to do with people
(08:48):
leaving, but um school fees, theVAT on school fees thing is
like is rough.
Like it's really rough.
So, you know, many of um I'dprobably say most of our clients
work very hard because they'retrying to, you know, trying to
give their kids a better life.
That's what most people aretrying to do.
Uh, and they, you know, I'm notsaying it is or isn't, but
(09:10):
often people choose that goingto a private school might be you
know be better uh for theirkids.
Uh so it doesn't, it's not likehitting uh anyone that's got
loads of money, it's hittingpeople that might earn what
sounds like a lot of money, butpost-tax and then adding on an
extra 20% is really you know,it's just another one of those
(09:32):
gut gut punches that um maybethis is it, and maybe it's a bit
more ideological that I feelalmost the obligation to the
country uh is changing becauseof how draconian the tax system
is.
Does that make sense?
Dr James (09:49):
It it does, right?
There it's it's like we allhave some level of patriotism,
but it's it's it's gonna bethere's a limit in there, right?
Where someone where you feellike you're just getting pardon
the term mubbed off, basically,I guess, um, is is the is the
feeling.
I'm not saying that's thatthat's that anyone should feel
(10:12):
that way or it's valid, uh, butperhaps some people do.
Um I'm not saying I feel thatway for the record.
Um, but I'm guessing thatthat's what the sentiment is, in
essence.
Dan (10:21):
That that's the sentiment.
So when I first started workingwith dentists uh 13 years ago,
you know, our message was clearat uh um at trade shows,
dentists pay too much tax tax.
So that was the big sign on ourstand.
People would kind of walk past,eye it up, be a bit nervous to
come over, and maybe on thesecond day in the afternoon
(10:42):
they'd creep up and go, right,what can I do about saving tax?
Because it was embarrassing tothink that you'd want to
mitigate your tax bill.
Whereas now, but behind closeddoors, everyone wanted to reduce
their tax bill.
Now it's not the same.
Everyone's everyone's kind oftalking about it and interested
in what can I do?
(11:02):
Because if I don't do anything,I'm gonna be in a really,
really tough spot.
But yeah, the kind of publicsentiment side of it is uh you
don't know about it till you'vebeen there as well.
So um I remember my friend uhwhen he first was reaching the
VAT threshold, he was like, Ohno, I'm reaching the VAT
(11:23):
threshold, uh, but at least it'sonly 20% on stuff after 80
grand.
And I was like, No, it's likeit's all of it, and he couldn't,
I could see like the cogsturning in his head, and he was
like, But that's not fair, andI'm like, Yeah, yeah, like it
isn't really fair, but like youget so used to it as a small
business owner that like, ohokay, that's happening now.
(11:46):
I'm just gonna I'm gonna suckit up and keep moving, and
that's that's part of being anentrepreneur, I suppose.
But it's uh yeah, I definitelyI'd probably say a lot of people
are kind of losing their windum with it and just yeah, that
kind of deepening frustration.
And to be honest, I think it'smore of a like a kind of magical
(12:09):
solution to leave the co for alot of for some people, in
fairness, like it really makessense.
They're maybe not from the UK,they actually want to move back
to where you're where they'refrom, and there's like it's
almost always been on our radardesigning that exit for them so
we can kind of eke out every taxopportunity.
Whereas I think some people arejust looking for anything
that's like this Hail Mary Pass,where oh, do you know if I just
(12:33):
move to that place and I staythere for however long, um, then
I kind of mitigate all thistax.
Um, but yeah, it's it'sdefinitely not as simple, I'd
say.
So usually what happens is uh amate down the pub has kind of
told someone, right, if you moveto X country for three years,
(12:53):
actually you'll kind of save onall of these taxes.
And and actually the the Ithink it's a minimum of seven
years, and it's like pretty,it's it's not obviously the
government haven't made it easyto do it, so you kind of have to
really want to live in theplace that you're moving to as
well.
Uh, which sounds obvious, butlike often that's kind of I
don't know.
(13:14):
Uh it's the there's definitelyno kind of panacea to it, but I
think the perception amongstpeople is like, oh, I can only
do little things in the UK andneed a big thing to to mitigate
this tax, broadly.
Dr James (13:27):
Yeah, I hear you, you know, quick story on the VAT
thing.
I remember when that happenedto me, and I remember what's the
VAT threshold nowadays, like 90grand or something like that.
Dan (13:39):
Uh I do you know what?
I'm not actually sure becausewe work with dentists, but um
the year it happened to me, itwas 85.
Dr James (13:46):
I think it's 99.
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
Um, so I remember I was like,Oh, okay, well, at least I've
got my 85 grand tax free nextyear.
And my accountant was like, haha ha ha ha.
He laughed at me down thephone, and I was like, I
actually did him know, and I waslike, Why are you laughing?
Because he just thought thiswas the silliest thing that
anyone had ever said too.
(14:07):
But he's like, No, it'severything from this point
forward.
And I was like, Oh my god, areyou serious?
Because 20% is a lot ofpeople's margin.
Dan (14:16):
Well, it's it's most so the average dental practice in the
UK.
So I see practices I haven'tseen before, maybe kind of two
or three a week, and have donefor the past 10 years.
The average margin, I'd say,after the principal's been paid,
is about three to six percentthat we see.
And that was even when it wasserious.
Most don't make money.
(14:37):
Most dental practices in the UKdon't make money.
Now, there are some, you know,we've got clients that have got
30% EBITDA, like they're reallygood business owners, and
they've really worked hard toachieve it.
Whereas most, the principalgets paid for their dentistry,
kind of like their associate,but they've also got a few
million quid invested insomething that's giving them
(14:58):
zero return.
It's quite often our jobsaying, why don't you just flog
the business, uh, speak toJames, chuck it in the stock
market, uh, get a decent return,not sweat it, you know, like
not have to have a team and getpaid for being a dental
associate.
Dr James (15:14):
Well, yeah, I mean, do you want my answer to that?
Is a quick quick assessment.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
A lot of people, I thinkthey're they're trained
subconsciously to think thatthis is just their life, right?
And they can't change things,you know.
And it's like you can get, youknow, definitely not financial
advice, yeah, but you can get10, 11, 12% every single year on
(15:37):
average in the stock marketwithout really doing anything
when you have the right fund.
Okay.
Um, obviously that doesn't itdepend there's a few variables
in there, it depends onsomeone's age, it depends on
when they need the money.
Like I say, if you're not sureabout that, definitely speak to
a good financial planner.
But the headline is that thatis possible, right?
Uh you just gotta know how it'sdone, of course.
(15:58):
Um, but yeah, no, you're right.
Like it's like um well the thethe only yeah, yeah.
The one thing about businessalthough to counterbalance that,
the one thing about yourbusiness though is even though
you are working in it, it willgive you cash flow.
But then again, you can justbecome an associate, can't you?
So you've kind of got you'rekind of in the same place
anyway.
And and I know I know loads ofpeople who sold their practices
(16:18):
and just went and worked as anassociate because they're just
like, I'm getting paid more andI'm working two days a week and
I don't have to think about itafterwards.
Anyway, subject conversationfor another day.
But yeah, so yeah, the the umwhere I was going with that was
I was yeah, I was I wasinterested to know, yeah, just
as we were saying earlier, theredoesn't seem to be what well, I
mean, from what you're saying,there's a general frustration
(16:40):
with the tax situation in theUK.
There's a few taxes that arebeing cited, but it's not like
there's one in particular thatis like the totem, the the
obelisk of uh the the the thethe dentist's ire, so to speak.
Uh but yeah, okay, cool.
So interesting one, and I don'tquite know if this is something
that you you're your uhnecessarily, this is your forte
(17:02):
per se.
And we kind of touched on thisearlier.
How easy is it to just uprootand go to another country and
pay less tax?
Is it not a process?
Does it not take time?
Do you know of anyone who'sdone that successfully?
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Dan (19:05):
Yeah, I mean the devil's very much in the detail in what
you're trying to do.
So, like I say, we've gotprobably more clients than you'd
think that actually do umharness the advantages of being
in Dubai and just fly in to do afew days dentistry a month.
So that that exists, um, buteach case is obviously
individual, how they'vemitigated it.
(19:26):
Um, but definitely if you'relooking at capturing as much tax
upside from your big exit, sowhen you sell your practice all
practices, um there's like noslam dunk, and you have to be
very it's actually the same forany tax thing.
You have to be very clear aboutwhat you want to do.
It's it's what you were sayingabout financial planning, like
there's no off-the-shelffinancial plan for anyone, like
(19:49):
you need to actually do theplanning and it but and you also
need to stick to the planningas well, which a lot of people
don't realise.
There's kind of there's nobutton you can press that gives
you the tax saving.
But if you know that you wantto retire to the south of France
in 10 years' time and you'relooking to sell this asset for
five million quid, we we canhelp at that point, type thing.
(20:12):
So we can kind of put things inplace that harness every
percentage point possible.
But if suddenly that stopsbeing the south of France and it
needs to be 20 million quid andsomething changes, then you
might have missed the taxopportunities that you could
have got um had you been clearabout what you really wanted in
advance.
Dr James (20:32):
I see, so it's definitely not something that
you just overnight stop payingor start, you know, overnight
you pay less tax.
Uh so um that's a good thing toknow because that goes
somewhere to shattering the kindof grass is always a greener
illusion.
Dan (20:50):
That's probably the I mean it's the perfect analogy, and it
is that the mate down the pub,there'll always be someone you
speak to that has this slam dunksolution for you.
And I think yeah, I thinkthat's definitely the sentiment
amongst the client base thatit's some level of kind of
exhaustion of the goalpostskeeping moving and going,
(21:10):
there's just got to be somewherewhere I can get to that greener
grass, and it's just kind ofnot the case.
Because yeah, I think that'sthe other frustration that you
know, like no comment on thepolitical elements, but it's not
like there is a a party thatcould get voted in that is
pro-smus.
Do you know what I mean?
So there's not like a kind ofdemocratic solution, it's just
(21:32):
like if you're gonna be in theUK, uh so yeah, if you earn a
hundred and fifty K in the UK,your tax contribution is the
same as twenty one people onminimum wage.
Like that's pretty crazy.
You run that by me again justso I can appreciate if your if
your wage is what sorry 150k150k you will be paying actually
(21:55):
more tax than 21 people onminimum wage, and that's no
comment on people on minimumwage, it's just a fact that if
you're if you cross that 50kthreshold and become successful,
you just suddenly get rinsed.
I was trying to explain.
Well, actually, yeah, I wasn'ttrying to explain, he did
understand it, but my nephew'strying to get uh become a lawyer
(22:15):
of saying, look, if there's ajob for 50 grand or a job for 70
grand, like don't necessarilygo for the money because
actually that 20 grand upsideisn't 20 grand in your pocket,
you'll get absolutely rinsed onit.
So you will have objectivelymore cash, but not as much as it
looks like.
So do kind of go for the betteropportunity, not the cash
(22:36):
today.
And that's reallycounterintuitive, but it's the
reality that anything after that50 grand mark, you get rinsed.
And I don't know, I thinkprobably my opinion when I was
uh younger was like, well, if Iwas earning 50 grand, I'd be
happy, you know, I'd be happyenough because I'd have loads of
money, and then you're like,yeah, it's not actually as much
money as it feels.
Dr James (22:56):
Interesting.
And you know what we could veryeasily do in this podcast, we
could get into all the ways youcould mitigate taxes in the UK,
but we're actually not going todo that today because there's
loads of podcasts that we'vedone um on that before.
This is more of a little bit ofa philosophical uh discussion
more than anything else.
And in your opinion, I knowobviously, Dan, it's very hard
to comment.
(23:17):
Um in your well, actually, justbefore I ask that question,
Dan, in your 13 years, I thinkyou said earlier experience
working with Dennis, has the hasthe theme been that taxes
consistently rise at this rate?
Is that what you've you'venoticed?
Have they always been going up?
Dan (23:34):
Yeah, um, and the and the pressures, I suppose, of having
a dental practice.
So, I mean, it's alwayschallenging to have any business
at any time because you knowthere's people in it, etc.
So the you know, that's thecaveat.
I'm not trying to bedisparaging, but um buying a
dental practice or having adental practice when I first got
(23:54):
into it was a bit like uhbuying property in the year 2000
in London.
Like you weren't the shrewdestproperty, you didn't have to be
the shrewdest property investor,just inflation happened, the
value of the the property wentup, and that kind of happened in
dentistry.
So I think the GDP spend ondentistry went up three or four
(24:15):
times over that decade.
So it was just demand wasincreasing, high-value
treatments appeared, um, andkind of if you're in the party,
you do pretty well from it.
And that would that was myearly experience in dentistry.
Um, so yeah, it's not just atax position that's got worse.
It's like um, so you know, whenyou're a teenager, you can kind
of go out every night of theweek, still get a place bought
(24:37):
on Saturday, feel great, lookgreat.
Uh, then suddenly you hit 30and you go, hang on, I probably
should look at my diet here andstart exercising a bit more, and
then you kind of creep moretowards that middle age point,
and uh suddenly you have toreally think about this stuff.
Dentistry's just in middle agenow, so it's not like it's it's
just harder than it was.
Um, so that's why you knowwe're discussing my advisory
(25:00):
service earlier, and it'ssomething I take really
seriously because actuallydelivering advice eight years
ago was quite straightforward.
It was like put some businessinfrastructure in place, invest
in marketing, you know, look atwhat your associates are
grossing.
More or less everyone would dopretty well from doing just
that, whereas now it's just muchmore complicated.
(25:21):
But I'm still seeing some quitescary advice being given, to be
honest, like as if it's likethe olden days.
So, like, you know, um someonewas looking on taking that on
this crazy investment, which forthem to make it so they've got
a practice that turns over about300k.
They're not my advisory client.
Uh, they were looking on takingit on a site that would have to
(25:43):
turn over four million quid forit to for the numbers to stack
up, and their advice from theiradvisor was does this align with
your ad your vision?
That's what the the advisorasked them.
Uh and they said yeah, and hesaid, crack on, do it.
It's like, what they're gonnaend up bust.
Like there's absolutely there'snothing in their track record
that suggests, you know, like ifmy best client said, by the
(26:06):
way, I'm gonna set up a squat,the threshold for success is
four million quid.
I don't know, I'd be like, uh,do you really isn't there easier
ways we can uh we can make someupside here?
But that's that's the industry.
It's um yeah, that that is atheme of this year that I felt a
bit gaslit by a lot of thestuff I was seeing and reading
(26:30):
because I get to see the numbersof hundreds of dental
practices, so I know what'shappening in the industry, um,
and it's not reflectednecessarily by what you see on
LinkedIn or whatever.
I'm I'm not actually on any ofthe dental groups on Facebook,
uh, so I don't know what that'slike.
You'll obviously have a muchstronger insight into that.
Um but yeah, I was kind ofworried that I don't know, the
(26:55):
industry hadn't really woken upto the fact that it's in middle
age.
Um, but definitely I don'tknow, towards the end of this
year, it it's changed, likepeople are really getting in
contact.
And that yeah, I don't knowwhat your opinion on it, but I
the switch from being a dentistto a business owner is not like
(27:15):
an like it's not an like apromotion.
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's it's like you've beensuper structured to qualify as
a dentist.
You had to like when did youhow old were you when you first
thought you were gonna be adentist?
Dr James (27:29):
Uh I think I was 17 when I decided, and then 25 when
I qualified, something alongthose lines.
Dan (27:37):
Super, super yeah, yeah, like that's pretty structured
how you get to that point, andthen suddenly people get to 30
and they're really good at theircraft, and they go, right, I'm
gonna buy a business.
Like that's a crazy movesideways.
Like, I I don't think it shouldbe necessarily a good step.
If you want like financialsecurity, a nice life, and
(28:00):
control over your work-lifebalance, like be a really good
associate, set up a limitedcompany, put money in a pension.
Uh, this isn't uh financialadvice because I was also gonna
say buy some Bitcoin as well,but that's my personal uh
personal uh preference oncertain things.
But do you know what I mean?
Like that's pretty robust.
You're gonna do fairly well,yeah.
Dr James (28:22):
Well, it's it's it's again not financial advice, it's
the conventional tried andtested way to get rich, isn't
it?
Right, just make make a goodwedge, you know, make enough to
have balanced life and be happyin the in the here and now, and
then set some away in either insome sort of tax vision for
investing vehicle like a nicerpension, and let it compound to
(28:44):
infinitum, right?
And that is that is the way Ithink pretty much millions of
people across the world have gotrich.
And even if you do that, evenif you do that extremely well,
okay, I was reading a stat theother day.
Um, what was it?
95% of people in the UK don'town a stock outside of a
(29:07):
pension.
Now what you gotta remember isthere's a lot of workplace
pensions, yeah, right?
Which own stocks, which buysstocks on people's behalf.
So basically, in other words,probab only like five percent of
people actually have ISAs oractually have GIAs, right?
That have invested in a stock,yeah.
(29:28):
So um that is a crazy that is atruly crazy stat.
It's literally only one in 20.
Yeah.
And it kind of when you'veactually bought a stock in an
ISA or a GIA, it actuallysuggests you've got a little bit
of interest in these sorts ofthings as well.
So, in other words, the other19 out of 20 either don't know
it, don't care.
So literally 95% of people.
(29:49):
So by the sheer fact you set upan ISA and bought a stock,
you're in the top 5%, yeah.
And then what I'll what I willsay personally from personal
experience, just through havingthese sorts of conversations
with dentists a million timesover the phone, because they'll
pick up the phone and it kind ofcomes with a territory that
they'll share things about theirfinancial situation with me
that they might necessarilynecessarily share with other
(30:11):
people, and they'll tell meabout their ICN of pension, and
I'll think to myself, hmm, Imean, you've obviously got, you
know, you've obviously donesomething, right?
Like you've got a reasonablygood, you've got a handle on
what to do, but it's probablyonly two or three times that I
can think of that I've that orit you know, definitely at least
count on two hands, right, outof those sorts of conversations
(30:33):
that I've thought to myself,right, you have actually got
this dialed in, like you're it'scompletely optimized for you.
Okay.
So of that five percent, likeliterally 0.1%, have it
optimized, optimized.
So what I'm saying is to comefull circle, is if you do what
you're saying and do itextremely well, you're still in
the the top 0.1%.
And like to be a business ownerand be in the you know, to be a
(30:58):
business owner and make itsuccessful, um it's way harder,
in my opinion.
Dan (31:03):
Right, and it's just way way less predictable.
It's way predictable, and it'sit's just you know, I love it.
I think that's a thing.
Like I I love doing it.
We both like reading books onbusiness, we like it.
Uh sometimes I don't like it.
You know, like I I kind of whenI'm speaking to people, I think
if you can love your job 20% ofthe time, then that's probably
(31:24):
quite a good result.
I don't know if that's low,low.
Some people I tell they're likecrikey, and it's not that I
hate it, you know, four days ofthe week.
It's just you know, I I want toget that that joy from it, but
most of the time it's justWhatsApp kind of gut punch,
email gut punch, right?
What do I do about this?
But I I like that you knowthat's it's a it's a big part of
(31:45):
my identity, so you should havea business if you're like that.
Um and it can't just be aboutcommercial return because like
you said, like the the smartmoney is kind of get your head
around investment.
Also, I mean this is the thing,and it you don't have to say,
but like in the years where I'vemade significant wealth gains,
(32:08):
I've also made significantwealth losses because that's
when you're learning.
Do you know what I mean?
Like you can't just do perfectinvestment from day one.
You actually have to commit tothis and figure it out.
And like you say, maybe in 10years you might have figured it
out where everything's in lineand you're like really rock
solid with it, but you know,there's no I don't know.
(32:32):
I think well, it's it's theleaving the country thing.
There is no silver bullet, likeyes, like if you want to invest
in the stock market, you willhave to invest in the stock
market, and you'll not just haveto do that, you'll have to keep
it there when it dips, which isscary and hard, and people
struggle with that.
Dr James (32:51):
Yeah, and you know, I know this is getting slightly
off topic now, but in a weirdway, in business or investing,
you don't want to make too muchmoney too fast, especially at
the start, because guaranteeyou, you will think you're God's
gift, and you will think thatyou've got the mightest touch,
and you will spend your way youwill spend the vast majority of
it back to where you werebefore, virtually always.
(33:12):
You you wanna you wanna get thebattle scars, you want to get
the knowledge and get theexperience, right?
It's it's actually that that'smore valuable, okay?
And then the money comes afterthat, and then you're way more
likely to retain the moneybecause you can actually sense
what a good opportunity isversus isn't.
And I I the only reason it'sthere, that is uh that's
basically what happened to mefor for extreme years.
Dan (33:33):
And that's I I don't know anyone that was into that has
been into it that it has someversion of it hasn't happened.
There's a really good uh Ithink it was from Michael Saylor
tweeted the other day that likeif you bought hundred dollars
of Bitcoin in 2010, it's worthfour billion today.
It's not really true becauseyou also had to see it go to ten
grand, then down to five andnot sell it, and then you had to
(33:55):
see it go up and down and notsell it.
Like it's not a simple like,oh, I did one trade, I'm
suddenly a billionaire.
It's like then you've got tohold on to it.
So and yeah, and then you'vegot to how do you hold on to it?
Do you have it ondecentralized?
Do you have it on Coldstock?
All of these questions, and youhave to make tons of mistakes,
(34:15):
and uh you have to invest inthings like Luna as well, and uh
wake up one morning and uh andhad a bit of a crash.
But it's you know, I do thinkcrypto's an amazing teacher
because the feedback's so quickon it going wrong.
Um, so yeah, again, notfinancial advice, definitely
don't take it from me.
Um, but like I think, yeah, Ithink that's what we say, Joe.
(34:38):
I wonder, yeah, wonder whatyour take on it is as well.
Like, invest in things that dointerest you.
So, like we we often say, like,have a few different investment
categories.
So, stocks and shares kind ofprobably something you should be
doing.
You might have your business,uh, but we've got more and more
clients who are like quiteheavily invested, you know, like
(34:59):
hundreds of thousands of poundsin whiskey.
And like, there's a fairlycompelling uh uh thesis behind
them doing it, and I think it'sto do with the emerging whiskey
market in Asia.
Um, and they're interested byit and it works for them.
So I'm like, that's that's goodbecause you're more likely to
read something about that ifyou're into it type thing.
So yeah, we do see that quite abit.
Dr James (35:22):
Yeah, I mean, for me, I think that if you're gonna be
it's it comes down to the activeand passive thing, you know,
like invest in things, it's justeasier for you to make money.
If you're gonna be if you'regonna be a passive investor,
then you'll only ever really getthe average of any market,
right?
Like Bitcoin is kind of theaverage is is in a way like an
ETF of the crypto market in a ina kind of abstract way, shall
(35:45):
we say?
Yeah.
So if you're gonna invest insomething passively, then you
kind of need to know a certainamount about the asset that
you're investing in.
If you're gonna be an activeinvestor, and that counts, I'm
gonna include actively tradingin that category or actively
running a business, then for me,you're better off just picking
(36:06):
one asset and knowing theabsolute shit out of it.
Because if you're gonna beactive, you have to be able to
beat everyone else, like there'sgonna be an average that you've
got to be able to make moremoney relative to everybody, and
in that sense, it'scompetitive.
And in order to do that, youneed to know more and be better
at it, right?
So I think for me, um, thesecond I'm deciding you can only
(36:27):
really be truly active in maybeone to two areas because you
just there's just not enoughspace in your brain, otherwise.
That's my thesis on that.
Um, and for me, it's like okay,if you're going to run a dental
practice and do it extremelywell, because you're actively
participating in the business,then absolutely learn the
absolute hell out of how to runone really well, and uh then
you're maximizing the odds ofyou beating everybody else.
(36:49):
But yeah, anyway, Dan, I've gota question for you.
Will you leave the UK?
Dan (36:54):
Uh I won't.
I definitely I'd like do youknow what it's actually a relief
for me to know that I won't, ifthat makes sense.
It just makes it you know, I uhI live in Cornwall, which is
not where I'm from originally,but I love it here.
Um and I, you know, I like Ilike the country, I like
Britain, so I'll be stickingaround.
Um, I mean I say that, and I'msure there's something,
(37:16):
something the government coulddo that could tip me over the
edge.
But yeah, it's it's definitelyvery much how do I um still
compete in this environment, andmainly how do I make enough
money so my kids can afford tohave some quality of life and
not worry about it because I dothink it's gonna be way tougher
for them.
Well, I mean, we know I thinkum my parents bought their first
(37:39):
house, so it was like threeyears' salary was the cost of
their first house.
Whereas what's it now?
It's like 20, 25 years orsomething, um, I think is the
average in the UK.
So gosh knows what it'll be bythe time my kids come to buy a
house.
So that that's the main themain drive.
Um, but yeah, I'd try and I'dalso say, because there's kind
(38:00):
of negativity around it, butthere's still, yeah, you've kind
of got your two paths, be anassociate.
There's a very well-troddenpath to getting rich that still
works, you just have to own it.
Or if you love having abusiness, be a business owner,
and to some degree it's the sameas it ever was, it's just
there's a few more hurdles toget over.
(38:21):
So it's kind of crack on, uh,yeah, and try and do it with a
smile on your face, I think isthe uh is the main thing.
Boom.
Dr James (38:28):
And any hmm, just out of interest, I don't know if you
can quite answer this question.
If not, we can we can cut itout.
But if you can, is there anysuccess stories that you can
share with us of people that youknow who have moved away, all
anonymized, of course?
Dan (38:45):
Um, there is so the big kind of transactions that there
are a few clients that are verywell aligned to harness
significant tax advantagesbecause they're planning for
their exit today, even thoughit's five five years away.
So I'd say it's absolutelyworth a conversation.
Uh at the moment, the peopleharnessing it, it mainly is
(39:05):
actually just people kind ofcommuting from Dubai.
Um, but the big like swervingloads of taxes, it hasn't
happened yet because they kindof have been structuring it
through the this year, butthey're very, very well set to
have a good exit in the future.
Dr James (39:21):
Interesting.
So, in essence, really we gottathink ahead, it's not an
overnight thing.
And in order to do thisproperly, if someone was to
leave the UK uh in order tominimize their tax bill or to
become tax efficient, thenreally it's about how can I say
this, well get gettingstrategic.
Uh, and uh that would be themain takeaway, I guess, really.
Dan (39:44):
Get get clear on what you want, um, and get strategic and
get a good advisor, and theyshould be able to get you
significant advantages.
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