November 4, 2025 • 21 mins
Sun, pollution, and even your phone screen constantly stress your skin. At the Science of Skin Summit, Dr. Patti Farris broke down what actually works to defend against that daily onslaught—and why vitamin C remains the MVP when formulated and used correctly. We translate the science into plain English, explaining how free radicals damage collagen and DNA, how oxidative stress shows up as wrinkles and brown spots, and why topical vitamin C outperforms diet alone by directly saturating skin and complementing SPF against visible and infrared light.
Dr. Farris also walks through how to pick the right formula: L-ascorbic acid for potency, THD ascorbate for sensitive skin, and the powerhouse combo of vitamins C + E + ferulic acid for all-day antioxidant defense. Expect clear, practical takeaways—a morning routine that starts with antioxidant serum, ends with mineral sunscreen, and shifts your mindset from “anti-aging” to everyday skin resilience.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
But when the these environmental aggressors are
going on the skin, they createwhat are called free radicals,
these unstable oxygen molecules.
Having a good diet full ofantioxidant-rich fruits and
vegetables is absolutelyessential.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Is there a recommendation we touched on a
little bit just forconcentration?
Because I think people aresometimes thrown off.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
If there's a concentration that's shown to be
the most beneficial, welcome toDermotrotter, Don't Swear About
Skin Care, where host Dr.
Shannon C.
Trotter, a board-certifieddermatologist, sits down with
fellow dermatologists andskincare experts to separate
fact from fiction and simplifyskincare.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Welcome to the Dermotrotter Don't Swear About
Skin Care podcast.
I'm excited to be here todaybecause we're coming live from
the Science of Skin Summit.
And I've got a special guesthere with me today, Dr.
Patricia Ferris, who'sco-founder of the conference and
an expert in all things skin.
You will see that she has a lotof information to provide us
today, and we're going to talktackle antioxidants.
(01:05):
So welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
Thank you for having me, and thank you for being at
the summit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Well, thank you for the invitation.
Just on a side note, it's beenan amazing experience meeting
new people, networking, and justseeing all the innovation that's
going on.
And what I want to talk moreabout today in the area of your
expertise, research, andinterests, antioxidants in the
skin, but specifically vitamin Cthat we'll dive into.
But first, I wanted to know ifyou could just give a little bit
of background on antioxidants.
(01:31):
Why are they so important forskin health?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Absolutely.
I mean, our skin protects itselffrom ultraviolet light and
pollutants with antioxidants.
Vitamin C is the most plentifulantioxidant in the skin.
But unfortunately, our bodiescannot make vitamin C.
It's one of the essentialvitamins, meaning that we have
to either ingest it through ourdiet.
(01:54):
And of course, you think firstof fruit, you think of citrus,
but it's in lots of leafy greenvegetables and other things as
well.
But we also are fortunate thatwe can put vitamin C on the skin
topically, and that vitamin Ccan be absorbed through the skin
and we can get all of thoseantioxidant benefits.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So when you talk about antioxidant, if for our
listeners are like, I don't evenreally know what that really
means.
Like what's happening, you know,maybe at that cellular level,
like what is the role of anantioxidant for skin health?
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Such a great question.
So we know that when the body isunder uh aggressors,
environmental aggressors,whether it's UV light, and we
talk a lot more now aboutpollutants as well.
But when the these environmentalaggressors are going on the
skin, they create what arecalled free radicals, these
unstable oxygen molecules.
(02:46):
And I always tell people, thinkof them like ping pong balls.
You know, they're pinging aroundin your skin and they're
damaging proteins like collagenand elastin.
They're damaging DNA.
We know that when oxidativestress hits DNA, what happens?
It mutates.
And that is the beginning ofskin cancer, unfortunately.
And so all of these things canbe damaged by these ping pong
(03:07):
balls bouncing around in theskin.
They can also be quelched, as wecall them.
I say the antioxidants are likePac-Man, and they eat up and
they neutralize all of thosefree radical molecules.
So it's got to be a balancebetween free radical formation
and antioxidants.
And once the free radicals startoutnumbering Pac-Man, they begin
(03:31):
to cause what we call oxidativestress.
And this is when we see thedamage that happens to the skin.
We know that under thoseconditions, the skin begins to
break collagen and elastinmolecules down.
We start to see wrinkling andsagging.
We also see pigmentationformation.
Pigment formation is anoxidative reaction.
(03:52):
So we start seeing brown spotsand all of those things that you
and I, as dermatologists,recognize as uh the clinical
signs and symptoms of sun damageand photoaging.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
So that's impressive because I think people don't
realize the amount of damagethat's being done.
And I really like that youcommented on pollutants because
I think there's a lot ofattention now that people are
thinking, okay, if I'm going todo vitamin C, maybe there's a
role, obviously, in the morningapplication, which we'll talk a
little bit more about in amoment.
I think a lot of people might beout there listening thinking,
(04:26):
well, what's the difference ifI'm taking maybe a vitamin C
supplement or if I'm justdrinking some orange juice
versus directly putting avitamin C on my skin?
Is there a difference in thevalue it can bring for your
health or for skin?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I mean, I think, of course, having a good diet full
of antioxidant-rich fruits andvegetables is absolutely
essential.
But remembering when you ingestsomething, it goes all through
the body.
So some of that vitamin C endsup in the skin, but a great deal
of it also ends up in otherorgan systems.
(04:59):
The beauty of our organ, theskin, is that we can directly
apply that vitamin C.
It can penetrate through theskin and just beef up the
antioxidant defense system ofthe skin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
And thinking in those terms, then people are
looking around and said, okay,you sold me.
I think I want to bring vitaminC into my skincare regimen.
How do you help them navigate?
And maybe people don't even knowthat there's different types of
vitamin C.
Could you walk us through thedifferent types and maybe if
there's a better opportunity touse one versus the other in
circumcer certain circumstancesas well?
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
So, without a doubt, the active form of vitamin C is
L-ascorbic acid.
It is a water-soluble vitamin.
It is the active form within thecell.
So there are many products inthe marketplace that contain L
ascorbic acid.
I mean, the first one that comesto mind is the most famous, C.
E.
ferulic by Skin Pseuticals.
(05:54):
And that is a long time tested,extensively studied vitamin C.
But it's not the cheapest guy onthe block.
Okay.
So I understand that some peoplecan't afford to keep up with C.
E.
ferulic, but it's a goodproduct.
And what happened when C.
E.
ferrulic was developed is it wasdeveloped by a dermatologist,
the late Dr.
Sheldon Pinnell.
(06:14):
He was at Duke University.
And what Pinnell did for us ishe taught us how to stabilize
aloscorbic acid.
The early forms of aloscorbicacid in creams and lotions
basically were turning colorsbecause they couldn't stabilize
the vitamin C.
Very important.
So Chanel figured out what hecalls now, they were patented
(06:35):
the Duke formulation parameters,what the concentration should
be.
And that's about 10, 15 to 20%.
The pH has to be quite low, likearound 4, 4.2.
And so he figured out how tostabilize it in formulation.
And that's so important becauseunstable forms of vitamin C have
(06:55):
no antioxidant capability atall.
To sort of circumvent thatproblem, cosmetic companies and
formulators started turning toother forms of vitamin C.
So you might find magnesiumascorable phosphate or sodium
ascorable phosphate.
But one of the most popular istetrahexaldecaloscorbate, THDA,
(07:17):
as we call it.
And the reason the formulatorsand cosmetic companies love it
is because it's very stable,it's lipid soluble, and you know
as well as I do, lipid solublegoes through the skin way easier
than water soluble does.
And it's also very gentle.
It can be used at higherconcentrations because it's
delivered at a neutral pH.
(07:38):
The acidic pH that we have touse to deliver all ascorbic acid
can be irritating.
So tetrahexaldecal really kindof took over the marketplace
when it came and it's used quiteextensively.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
I think it's just fun to say, too.
Tetrahexal.
Tetrahexaldecal ascorbic.
I mean, it took me about threeyears to learn how to say it,
quite frankly.
I call it THDA.
Do you feel like with thosedifferent options that you that
the efficacy is relatively thesame?
Like do you feel like there's atrade-off if you're doing
something more tolerable foroutcomes?
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
So THDA must be converted to L ascorbic acid
because it has to, we have torelease that.
But you know, because these areusually uh so easily formulated,
you and at high concentration,you're pretty much guaranteed
that a percentage of it is goingto turn to L ascorbic acid.
And there's plenty of studies ofproducts with THDA in them, and
(08:27):
they can, you know, do all thewonderful things that vitamin C
does.
And right now we're just talkingabout photoprotection.
And there's a lot of otherthings that vitamin C does in
the skin, of course.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
Well, let's talk about those.
What are some of the other rolesthat vitamin C plays in the
skin?
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
So, vitamin C, of course, it's a cofactor for the
enzymes that basically make thecollagen molecules, the prolyol
and lysyl hydroxylases.
So it's essential for collagenformation.
That's why people who don't havecollagen, I mean, don't have
high vitamin C's, have problemsin their skin.
You have to have it to makecollagen.
(09:05):
The second thing it does is itlightens the skin.
It's actually a tyrosinaseinhibitor, so it blocks that
enzyme that creates melanin orpigment.
So it's a nice skin lightener aswell.
It has some anti-inflammatoryproperties.
It's been looked at inconditions like acne because it
is an anti-inflammatory, canreduce redness.
Sometimes you can use it inpatients who have things like um
(09:28):
rosacea and conditions such asthat.
So it's really amulti-functioning molecule that,
yes, it acts as aphotoprotector, but it also has
these really nice benefits forimproving the appearance of
skin.
And who doesn't want to get ridof their pigmentation and the
wrinkles all over?
That's a win-win.
I mean, it's a total win-win.
The other thing about topicalantioxidants, sort of going back
(09:52):
to the story of ultravioletlight, we now know that there
are very, very important effectsof those longer wavelengths of
light.
We're talking about blue light.
This is the light you get fromyour devices that we have our
faces stuck in front of all day.
And also from the sun, visiblelight and even infrared, both
blue light and infrared actuallyincrease your oxidative stress
(10:16):
and your production of reactiveoxygen species.
Sunscreens do a great job in theUV spectrum.
But as we go into the longerwavelengths of light, like
visible light and infrared,sunscreens no longer help you.
So we know that we have toprotect against those longer
wavelengths of light.
This is another great reason toadd a topical antioxidant into
(10:38):
your regimen in the morningunder your sunscreen.
So you're getting that good UVprotection with the longer
wavelengths of light as well.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
Well, I think a couple things stick out to me
from what you just said.
One, you mentioned that youcould even use it if you have
rosacea or sensitive skin.
Because I think there's a littlebit of misperception out there
about I can't use it if I have asensitive skin type.
Now, knowing about the differenttypes of vitamin C, I think
you've opened up people's eyes alittle bit that they could be a
candidate for actually using.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
So tetrahexaldeckle.
Yeah.
Because Gorbate is very good fora patient like that.
Neutral pH, pretty gentle on theskin, and gives you some
anti-inflammatory activity.
And we know you have to protectagainst all wavelengths of
light.
So even if you have rosacea orwhatever, unfortunately, there's
always a trade-off, as you know.
(11:26):
We don't want anything that'sgoing to irritate or increase
redness, but those are reallythat's where these THDA and some
of these other uh types ofvitamin C really can come in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Important point because I do think sensitive
skin folks, rosacea skin, theyfeel like they're sometimes
excluded from benefits of someof our anti-aging or
rejuvenation type products.
So this is a great solution forthem.
Yes.
One of the questions I get a lotis what is the value?
Is there a difference in usingmaybe a vitamin C serum versus a
vitamin C that might be alreadyadded into your sunscreen to
(11:59):
enhance that, you know, someprotection?
Do you think there's a reason tochoose one or the other?
Do you feel like they're equallyimportant to how they might
value the skin?
Or is there any studies tosupport one way or the other?
SPEAKER_02 (12:09):
You know, there are studies showing that obviously
topical vitamin C andcombination products like C E
ferolic work great alone with,you know, to quench, you know,
in terms of free radical, umquenching free radicals.
But I think it's important tosay that there are also studies
(12:29):
showing that vitamin C and otherantioxidants as well, added to
sunscreens, provide addedbenefits.
So those are kind of easierproducts to use, but I have to
be honest, I think I have my owninherent bias.
I really like a vitamin C serum.
I think you take that littledropper and you put your serum
on first, you get a nice coat ofwhatever antioxidant.
(12:52):
And there's millions of otherones too.
Of course, we know, besides justvitamin C, there's lots of
botanicals and lots ofantioxidants you can use.
But I'm sort of prejudiced.
I like a vitamin C C.
Yeah.
I really do.
I like a vitamin C serum.
I like to layer it with a goodsunscreen.
I love mineral sunscreens justbecause I think today they're so
(13:12):
cosmetically elegant and theyjust give you that really nice
coverage.
And I, you know, I think thatone, two in the morning, I like
two steps in the morning and twosteps at night.
So I like it to be simple, butantioxidant followed by
sunscreen in the morning, Ithink is a total win-win.
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
And and kind of looking at that, do you feel
like I know we talked a littlebit about irritation?
If somebody's looking topurchase a type of vitamin C
serum, is there a recommendationand we touched on a little bit
just for concentration?
Because I think people aresometimes thrown off.
If there's a concentrationthat's shown to be the most
beneficial, maybe it's just thetype of vitamin C, not even the
concentration that's soimportant from a tolerability
(13:50):
standpoint.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
You know, usually aloscorbic acid is somewhere
around 10% or 15% in all ofthose products.
And if you look attetrahexaldecal ascorbate, the
products that maybe you and Imight recommend or have in our
office, usually have 20%, someas high as 30%.
Again, we're doing we're we'rebanking on some conversion of
that to alascorbic acid.
(14:11):
And because of its chemicalproperties, it's quite tolerable
in the skin.
So you can go to those higherconcentrations with
tetrahexaldecal.
But those are sort of the rangesthat you'll see.
There's a lot of inexpensivevitamin C's too that you can buy
over the counter.
You know, La Roche-Possay's gota whole line of serums, and you
know, many companies do.
(14:32):
And those are usually around 10%Loscorbic acid.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Over time, with some of those variations, have you
ever seen can somebody build upa tolerance?
Are they able to use over time aless potent version and kind of
acclimate or get their skin usedto it?
Or is it just kind of how theirskin might behave that there's
not an opportunity to bump up,or has that ever been looked at?
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
Well, it's I don't think it's really been looked
at, but it's kind of interestingbecause when we talk about
retinoids or vitamin A, we'realways talking about this sort
of titrating up.
Exactly.
But I think we do that honestlybecause of the irritation.
You know, you don't want toflood the skin with these high
physiologic doses of vitamin A.
It's just irritating.
Right.
So we kind of slowly go up.
Vitamin C is fairly welltolerated, and so I think we
(15:15):
don't look at it as a titrationso much.
But let's face it, there arepeople who can't use alascorbic
acid.
Great news.
We've got, you know, magnesiumascorobal phosphate, we've got
sodium ascorbal phosphate, we'vegot ascorbal palmitate, and now
we've got tetrahexaldecalascorba.
So I think that it's really, inmy opinion, you know, it's kind
of a front leader now becauseit's easy to formulate with and
(15:36):
it's really gentle on the skin.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Now, if somebody came to you, we talked about
sort of in the regimen that youthink it's important to use it
in the morning, which I feellike most people recommend.
If somebody wanted to use it asa part of their nighttime
routine, do you think that'skind of a no-no, or would that
be something you would encourageif they were just looking for an
extra antioxidant punch?
Because I get this question alot.
People always equate, I think,that more is better.
Do you really feel like that'snecessarily the case?
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
I don't think you need to put it on more than once
a day, and you're gonna get somuch more benefit using it in
the morning.
And so I always say, you know,use the antioxidant sunscreen
combo in the morning.
And then in the evening, I tryto choose products that are more
reparative, whether it's aretinoid or it's a growth factor
product or it's a heparinsulfate analog or whatever it
(16:21):
might be, something that wouldbe more of a reparative product,
a peptide product.
I love peptides.
I know you do too, becausethey've got so many cool ones
out now.
But I think that you can, whenyou're sleeping, let your skin
regenerate.
You know, and you know, itreminds me of a lot of things
that we've heard at thismeeting.
We're now using and lookingtowards all these regenerative
(16:44):
technologies.
Such an exciting time in skincare.
We're talking about exosomes,we're talking about so many
different technologies that Imean, I feel like we're really
just doing almost a 180 in theway we approach the skin.
It's not really about anti-aginganymore, it's about longevity,
(17:04):
it's about regenerative, it'sabout keeping the skin healthy.
And I love this sort oftransition we're seeing away
from anti-aging and really moreabout skin health and skill,
skin wellness and thenlongevity.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:20):
I think that's one of the fascinating takeaways
I've seen here at theconference, you know, this
pro-aging almost concept again,just to change our mindsets,
right?
Because not only that for aging,but I think in terms of
aesthetics and cosmetics, peoplejust simply classify it as like
in terms of vanity, theconnotation of it, just the
underpinnings, not understandingthat it really equates with
health.
You know, when you see thosechanges in our skin, it's
(17:42):
telling her our skin isn'thealthy anymore.
And yeah, there is a cosmeticaspect of that, but really to go
down to the cellular level torepair that.
I mean, it's such a powerfulthing that I've seen here at the
conference.
And I'm really excited to seewhat's to come.
When we talk about vitamin C2,I've noticed a lot that you'll
see it kind of paired withvitamin E as another
antioxidant.
(18:04):
And I wanted to get yourthoughts on kind of the science
behind that because there's arationale and kind of explain
that right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
Of course.
And all of this work wasactually done again by Dr.
Sheldon Pinnell, thedermatologist.
We knew that vitamin C worked.
He proved that, he stabilizedit, and he delivered it through
the skin.
But we also know that in nature,vitamin C helps to regenerate
oxidized vitamin E.
Vitamin E is the lipid-solubleantioxidant, plentiful again in
the skin.
(18:30):
So they work in tandem.
One of them gets oxidized andthe other one sacrifices itself,
the vitamin C, to againregenerate that vitamin E.
So there's this yin and yangbetween them.
Enter the botanical ferulicacid.
Firulic acid was actually addedto stabilize both C and E.
(18:52):
So you've got this, you know,sort of circle of synergistic
ingredients that keepregenerating each other and keep
the antioxidant um effective,really.
It's it's so fascinating.
You know, Pennell did all thiswork in the 90s, and I published
extensively on his work.
And, you know, he was a genius.
(19:13):
He took his cues from nature.
He actually started looking atvitamin C because of its ability
to regenerate collagen, and itwas shown that topical vitamin C
could help with wound healing.
And so he was he his first paperwas really written about wound
healing and how importantelascorbic acid was to the
formation of collagen.
And then I guess the light bulbswent off with him.
(19:34):
And he's like, wait a minute,collagen, wrinkles.
He was a genius.
I met him at the AmericanAcademy of Dermatology quite by
chance.
He was showing some before andafter pictures to somebody, and
I was peering over his shoulderand I was like, What did that?
And he goes, Oh, that's topicalvitamin C.
And I was like, I mean, I kindof looked at him like he was
crazy.
(19:54):
I'd never heard of such a thing.
And you know, the rest ishistory.
I was very fortunate to hementored me and got me
interested in antioxidants.
And I served as a consultant forhis company for many, many
years, which he ultimately soldto L'Oreal and turned into skin
suitical.
So it's kind of a you know, asubject that's near and dear to
me because of my relationshipwith him.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Well, it just makes things like this so much more
special when you have thatpersonal connection.
Yes.
I can't imagine how incrediblyproud he must be just seeing
what you've accomplished andwhat you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Well, and he was always so supportive of me.
I remember I wrote my firstchapter on vitamin C and asked
him, like, could you give mesome pictures, before and after
pictures, which he shared withme, these incredible photos.
And I honestly I still use todayin lectures because they're so
well, it's so well documented.
But yeah, it it was a veryspecial relationship.
And he did a lot for dermatologyand really was the first person
(20:48):
to be talking about topicalantioxidants, two
dermatologists.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Well, that's fascinating.
You know, I really appreciateyou coming in today and talking
with us.
I know you're incredibly busy,you're running around, running a
conference, and you gifted uswith some of your time and
expertise.
I really want to thank theScience of Skin Summit for
allowing us to come on, Dr.
Patricia Ferris, also Dr.
Ted Lane.
Thank you guys for inviting meto come on and record the
(21:13):
podcast.
It's been an excitingopportunity for us and to bring
this to our audience.
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
We're so happy to have you here and thank you for
having me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:20):
Of course, of course.
And we'd love to have you againbecause we could talk about
these things.
We could talk for a long time.
Well, thank you again forlistening.
If you like this episode, pleasehit like and subscribe and stay
tuned for the next episode ofDermotter Don't Swear About Skin
Care.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Thanks for listening to Dermotrotter.
For more about skincare, visitdermittrotter.com.
Don't forget to subscribe, leavea review, and share this podcast
with anyone who needs a littleskincare sanity.
Until next time, stay skinsmart.
But when the these environmental aggressors are
going on the skin, they createwhat are called free radicals,
these unstable oxygen molecules.
Having a good diet full ofantioxidant-rich fruits and
vegetables is absolutelyessential.
SPEAKER_01 (00:16):
Is there a recommendation we touched on a
little bit just forconcentration?
Because I think people aresometimes thrown off.
SPEAKER_00 (00:22):
If there's a concentration that's shown to be
the most beneficial, welcome toDermotrotter, Don't Swear About
Skin Care, where host Dr.
Shannon C.
Trotter, a board-certifieddermatologist, sits down with
fellow dermatologists andskincare experts to separate
fact from fiction and simplifyskincare.
Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01 (00:42):
Welcome to the Dermotrotter Don't Swear About
Skin Care podcast.
I'm excited to be here todaybecause we're coming live from
the Science of Skin Summit.
And I've got a special guesthere with me today, Dr.
Patricia Ferris, who'sco-founder of the conference and
an expert in all things skin.
You will see that she has a lotof information to provide us
today, and we're going to talktackle antioxidants.
(01:05):
So welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02 (01:06):
Thank you for having me, and thank you for being at
the summit.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
Well, thank you for the invitation.
Just on a side note, it's beenan amazing experience meeting
new people, networking, and justseeing all the innovation that's
going on.
And what I want to talk moreabout today in the area of your
expertise, research, andinterests, antioxidants in the
skin, but specifically vitamin Cthat we'll dive into.
But first, I wanted to know ifyou could just give a little bit
of background on antioxidants.
(01:31):
Why are they so important forskin health?
SPEAKER_02 (01:33):
Absolutely.
I mean, our skin protects itselffrom ultraviolet light and
pollutants with antioxidants.
Vitamin C is the most plentifulantioxidant in the skin.
But unfortunately, our bodiescannot make vitamin C.
It's one of the essentialvitamins, meaning that we have
to either ingest it through ourdiet.
(01:54):
And of course, you think firstof fruit, you think of citrus,
but it's in lots of leafy greenvegetables and other things as
well.
But we also are fortunate thatwe can put vitamin C on the skin
topically, and that vitamin Ccan be absorbed through the skin
and we can get all of thoseantioxidant benefits.
SPEAKER_01 (02:13):
So when you talk about antioxidant, if for our
listeners are like, I don't evenreally know what that really
means.
Like what's happening, you know,maybe at that cellular level,
like what is the role of anantioxidant for skin health?
SPEAKER_02 (02:25):
Such a great question.
So we know that when the body isunder uh aggressors,
environmental aggressors,whether it's UV light, and we
talk a lot more now aboutpollutants as well.
But when the these environmentalaggressors are going on the
skin, they create what arecalled free radicals, these
unstable oxygen molecules.
(02:46):
And I always tell people, thinkof them like ping pong balls.
You know, they're pinging aroundin your skin and they're
damaging proteins like collagenand elastin.
They're damaging DNA.
We know that when oxidativestress hits DNA, what happens?
It mutates.
And that is the beginning ofskin cancer, unfortunately.
And so all of these things canbe damaged by these ping pong
(03:07):
balls bouncing around in theskin.
They can also be quelched, as wecall them.
I say the antioxidants are likePac-Man, and they eat up and
they neutralize all of thosefree radical molecules.
So it's got to be a balancebetween free radical formation
and antioxidants.
And once the free radicals startoutnumbering Pac-Man, they begin
(03:31):
to cause what we call oxidativestress.
And this is when we see thedamage that happens to the skin.
We know that under thoseconditions, the skin begins to
break collagen and elastinmolecules down.
We start to see wrinkling andsagging.
We also see pigmentationformation.
Pigment formation is anoxidative reaction.
(03:52):
So we start seeing brown spotsand all of those things that you
and I, as dermatologists,recognize as uh the clinical
signs and symptoms of sun damageand photoaging.
SPEAKER_01 (04:06):
So that's impressive because I think people don't
realize the amount of damagethat's being done.
And I really like that youcommented on pollutants because
I think there's a lot ofattention now that people are
thinking, okay, if I'm going todo vitamin C, maybe there's a
role, obviously, in the morningapplication, which we'll talk a
little bit more about in amoment.
I think a lot of people might beout there listening thinking,
(04:26):
well, what's the difference ifI'm taking maybe a vitamin C
supplement or if I'm justdrinking some orange juice
versus directly putting avitamin C on my skin?
Is there a difference in thevalue it can bring for your
health or for skin?
SPEAKER_02 (04:39):
I mean, I think, of course, having a good diet full
of antioxidant-rich fruits andvegetables is absolutely
essential.
But remembering when you ingestsomething, it goes all through
the body.
So some of that vitamin C endsup in the skin, but a great deal
of it also ends up in otherorgan systems.
(04:59):
The beauty of our organ, theskin, is that we can directly
apply that vitamin C.
It can penetrate through theskin and just beef up the
antioxidant defense system ofthe skin.
SPEAKER_01 (05:12):
And thinking in those terms, then people are
looking around and said, okay,you sold me.
I think I want to bring vitaminC into my skincare regimen.
How do you help them navigate?
And maybe people don't even knowthat there's different types of
vitamin C.
Could you walk us through thedifferent types and maybe if
there's a better opportunity touse one versus the other in
circumcer certain circumstancesas well?
SPEAKER_02 (05:33):
So, without a doubt, the active form of vitamin C is
L-ascorbic acid.
It is a water-soluble vitamin.
It is the active form within thecell.
So there are many products inthe marketplace that contain L
ascorbic acid.
I mean, the first one that comesto mind is the most famous, C.
E.
ferulic by Skin Pseuticals.
(05:54):
And that is a long time tested,extensively studied vitamin C.
But it's not the cheapest guy onthe block.
Okay.
So I understand that some peoplecan't afford to keep up with C.
E.
ferulic, but it's a goodproduct.
And what happened when C.
E.
ferrulic was developed is it wasdeveloped by a dermatologist,
the late Dr.
Sheldon Pinnell.
(06:14):
He was at Duke University.
And what Pinnell did for us ishe taught us how to stabilize
aloscorbic acid.
The early forms of aloscorbicacid in creams and lotions
basically were turning colorsbecause they couldn't stabilize
the vitamin C.
Very important.
So Chanel figured out what hecalls now, they were patented
(06:35):
the Duke formulation parameters,what the concentration should
be.
And that's about 10, 15 to 20%.
The pH has to be quite low, likearound 4, 4.2.
And so he figured out how tostabilize it in formulation.
And that's so important becauseunstable forms of vitamin C have
(06:55):
no antioxidant capability atall.
To sort of circumvent thatproblem, cosmetic companies and
formulators started turning toother forms of vitamin C.
So you might find magnesiumascorable phosphate or sodium
ascorable phosphate.
But one of the most popular istetrahexaldecaloscorbate, THDA,
(07:17):
as we call it.
And the reason the formulatorsand cosmetic companies love it
is because it's very stable,it's lipid soluble, and you know
as well as I do, lipid solublegoes through the skin way easier
than water soluble does.
And it's also very gentle.
It can be used at higherconcentrations because it's
delivered at a neutral pH.
(07:38):
The acidic pH that we have touse to deliver all ascorbic acid
can be irritating.
So tetrahexaldecal really kindof took over the marketplace
when it came and it's used quiteextensively.
SPEAKER_01 (07:50):
I think it's just fun to say, too.
Tetrahexal.
Tetrahexaldecal ascorbic.
I mean, it took me about threeyears to learn how to say it,
quite frankly.
I call it THDA.
Do you feel like with thosedifferent options that you that
the efficacy is relatively thesame?
Like do you feel like there's atrade-off if you're doing
something more tolerable foroutcomes?
SPEAKER_02 (08:07):
So THDA must be converted to L ascorbic acid
because it has to, we have torelease that.
But you know, because these areusually uh so easily formulated,
you and at high concentration,you're pretty much guaranteed
that a percentage of it is goingto turn to L ascorbic acid.
And there's plenty of studies ofproducts with THDA in them, and
(08:27):
they can, you know, do all thewonderful things that vitamin C
does.
And right now we're just talkingabout photoprotection.
And there's a lot of otherthings that vitamin C does in
the skin, of course.
SPEAKER_01 (08:38):
Well, let's talk about those.
What are some of the other rolesthat vitamin C plays in the
skin?
SPEAKER_02 (08:43):
So, vitamin C, of course, it's a cofactor for the
enzymes that basically make thecollagen molecules, the prolyol
and lysyl hydroxylases.
So it's essential for collagenformation.
That's why people who don't havecollagen, I mean, don't have
high vitamin C's, have problemsin their skin.
You have to have it to makecollagen.
(09:05):
The second thing it does is itlightens the skin.
It's actually a tyrosinaseinhibitor, so it blocks that
enzyme that creates melanin orpigment.
So it's a nice skin lightener aswell.
It has some anti-inflammatoryproperties.
It's been looked at inconditions like acne because it
is an anti-inflammatory, canreduce redness.
Sometimes you can use it inpatients who have things like um
(09:28):
rosacea and conditions such asthat.
So it's really amulti-functioning molecule that,
yes, it acts as aphotoprotector, but it also has
these really nice benefits forimproving the appearance of
skin.
And who doesn't want to get ridof their pigmentation and the
wrinkles all over?
That's a win-win.
I mean, it's a total win-win.
The other thing about topicalantioxidants, sort of going back
(09:52):
to the story of ultravioletlight, we now know that there
are very, very important effectsof those longer wavelengths of
light.
We're talking about blue light.
This is the light you get fromyour devices that we have our
faces stuck in front of all day.
And also from the sun, visiblelight and even infrared, both
blue light and infrared actuallyincrease your oxidative stress
(10:16):
and your production of reactiveoxygen species.
Sunscreens do a great job in theUV spectrum.
But as we go into the longerwavelengths of light, like
visible light and infrared,sunscreens no longer help you.
So we know that we have toprotect against those longer
wavelengths of light.
This is another great reason toadd a topical antioxidant into
(10:38):
your regimen in the morningunder your sunscreen.
So you're getting that good UVprotection with the longer
wavelengths of light as well.
SPEAKER_01 (10:47):
Well, I think a couple things stick out to me
from what you just said.
One, you mentioned that youcould even use it if you have
rosacea or sensitive skin.
Because I think there's a littlebit of misperception out there
about I can't use it if I have asensitive skin type.
Now, knowing about the differenttypes of vitamin C, I think
you've opened up people's eyes alittle bit that they could be a
candidate for actually using.
SPEAKER_02 (11:06):
So tetrahexaldeckle.
Yeah.
Because Gorbate is very good fora patient like that.
Neutral pH, pretty gentle on theskin, and gives you some
anti-inflammatory activity.
And we know you have to protectagainst all wavelengths of
light.
So even if you have rosacea orwhatever, unfortunately, there's
always a trade-off, as you know.
(11:26):
We don't want anything that'sgoing to irritate or increase
redness, but those are reallythat's where these THDA and some
of these other uh types ofvitamin C really can come in.
SPEAKER_01 (11:38):
Important point because I do think sensitive
skin folks, rosacea skin, theyfeel like they're sometimes
excluded from benefits of someof our anti-aging or
rejuvenation type products.
So this is a great solution forthem.
Yes.
One of the questions I get a lotis what is the value?
Is there a difference in usingmaybe a vitamin C serum versus a
vitamin C that might be alreadyadded into your sunscreen to
(11:59):
enhance that, you know, someprotection?
Do you think there's a reason tochoose one or the other?
Do you feel like they're equallyimportant to how they might
value the skin?
Or is there any studies tosupport one way or the other?
SPEAKER_02 (12:09):
You know, there are studies showing that obviously
topical vitamin C andcombination products like C E
ferolic work great alone with,you know, to quench, you know,
in terms of free radical, umquenching free radicals.
But I think it's important tosay that there are also studies
(12:29):
showing that vitamin C and otherantioxidants as well, added to
sunscreens, provide addedbenefits.
So those are kind of easierproducts to use, but I have to
be honest, I think I have my owninherent bias.
I really like a vitamin C serum.
I think you take that littledropper and you put your serum
on first, you get a nice coat ofwhatever antioxidant.
(12:52):
And there's millions of otherones too.
Of course, we know, besides justvitamin C, there's lots of
botanicals and lots ofantioxidants you can use.
But I'm sort of prejudiced.
I like a vitamin C C.
Yeah.
I really do.
I like a vitamin C serum.
I like to layer it with a goodsunscreen.
I love mineral sunscreens justbecause I think today they're so
(13:12):
cosmetically elegant and theyjust give you that really nice
coverage.
And I, you know, I think thatone, two in the morning, I like
two steps in the morning and twosteps at night.
So I like it to be simple, butantioxidant followed by
sunscreen in the morning, Ithink is a total win-win.
SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
And and kind of looking at that, do you feel
like I know we talked a littlebit about irritation?
If somebody's looking topurchase a type of vitamin C
serum, is there a recommendationand we touched on a little bit
just for concentration?
Because I think people aresometimes thrown off.
If there's a concentrationthat's shown to be the most
beneficial, maybe it's just thetype of vitamin C, not even the
concentration that's soimportant from a tolerability
(13:50):
standpoint.
SPEAKER_02 (13:51):
You know, usually aloscorbic acid is somewhere
around 10% or 15% in all ofthose products.
And if you look attetrahexaldecal ascorbate, the
products that maybe you and Imight recommend or have in our
office, usually have 20%, someas high as 30%.
Again, we're doing we're we'rebanking on some conversion of
that to alascorbic acid.
(14:11):
And because of its chemicalproperties, it's quite tolerable
in the skin.
So you can go to those higherconcentrations with
tetrahexaldecal.
But those are sort of the rangesthat you'll see.
There's a lot of inexpensivevitamin C's too that you can buy
over the counter.
You know, La Roche-Possay's gota whole line of serums, and you
know, many companies do.
(14:32):
And those are usually around 10%Loscorbic acid.
SPEAKER_01 (14:36):
Over time, with some of those variations, have you
ever seen can somebody build upa tolerance?
Are they able to use over time aless potent version and kind of
acclimate or get their skin usedto it?
Or is it just kind of how theirskin might behave that there's
not an opportunity to bump up,or has that ever been looked at?
SPEAKER_02 (14:52):
Well, it's I don't think it's really been looked
at, but it's kind of interestingbecause when we talk about
retinoids or vitamin A, we'realways talking about this sort
of titrating up.
Exactly.
But I think we do that honestlybecause of the irritation.
You know, you don't want toflood the skin with these high
physiologic doses of vitamin A.
It's just irritating.
Right.
So we kind of slowly go up.
Vitamin C is fairly welltolerated, and so I think we
(15:15):
don't look at it as a titrationso much.
But let's face it, there arepeople who can't use alascorbic
acid.
Great news.
We've got, you know, magnesiumascorobal phosphate, we've got
sodium ascorbal phosphate, we'vegot ascorbal palmitate, and now
we've got tetrahexaldecalascorba.
So I think that it's really, inmy opinion, you know, it's kind
of a front leader now becauseit's easy to formulate with and
(15:36):
it's really gentle on the skin.
SPEAKER_01 (15:38):
Now, if somebody came to you, we talked about
sort of in the regimen that youthink it's important to use it
in the morning, which I feellike most people recommend.
If somebody wanted to use it asa part of their nighttime
routine, do you think that'skind of a no-no, or would that
be something you would encourageif they were just looking for an
extra antioxidant punch?
Because I get this question alot.
People always equate, I think,that more is better.
Do you really feel like that'snecessarily the case?
SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
I don't think you need to put it on more than once
a day, and you're gonna get somuch more benefit using it in
the morning.
And so I always say, you know,use the antioxidant sunscreen
combo in the morning.
And then in the evening, I tryto choose products that are more
reparative, whether it's aretinoid or it's a growth factor
product or it's a heparinsulfate analog or whatever it
(16:21):
might be, something that wouldbe more of a reparative product,
a peptide product.
I love peptides.
I know you do too, becausethey've got so many cool ones
out now.
But I think that you can, whenyou're sleeping, let your skin
regenerate.
You know, and you know, itreminds me of a lot of things
that we've heard at thismeeting.
We're now using and lookingtowards all these regenerative
(16:44):
technologies.
Such an exciting time in skincare.
We're talking about exosomes,we're talking about so many
different technologies that Imean, I feel like we're really
just doing almost a 180 in theway we approach the skin.
It's not really about anti-aginganymore, it's about longevity,
(17:04):
it's about regenerative, it'sabout keeping the skin healthy.
And I love this sort oftransition we're seeing away
from anti-aging and really moreabout skin health and skill,
skin wellness and thenlongevity.
So interesting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:20):
I think that's one of the fascinating takeaways
I've seen here at theconference, you know, this
pro-aging almost concept again,just to change our mindsets,
right?
Because not only that for aging,but I think in terms of
aesthetics and cosmetics, peoplejust simply classify it as like
in terms of vanity, theconnotation of it, just the
underpinnings, not understandingthat it really equates with
health.
You know, when you see thosechanges in our skin, it's
(17:42):
telling her our skin isn'thealthy anymore.
And yeah, there is a cosmeticaspect of that, but really to go
down to the cellular level torepair that.
I mean, it's such a powerfulthing that I've seen here at the
conference.
And I'm really excited to seewhat's to come.
When we talk about vitamin C2,I've noticed a lot that you'll
see it kind of paired withvitamin E as another
antioxidant.
(18:04):
And I wanted to get yourthoughts on kind of the science
behind that because there's arationale and kind of explain
that right.
SPEAKER_02 (18:10):
Of course.
And all of this work wasactually done again by Dr.
Sheldon Pinnell, thedermatologist.
We knew that vitamin C worked.
He proved that, he stabilizedit, and he delivered it through
the skin.
But we also know that in nature,vitamin C helps to regenerate
oxidized vitamin E.
Vitamin E is the lipid-solubleantioxidant, plentiful again in
the skin.
(18:30):
So they work in tandem.
One of them gets oxidized andthe other one sacrifices itself,
the vitamin C, to againregenerate that vitamin E.
So there's this yin and yangbetween them.
Enter the botanical ferulicacid.
Firulic acid was actually addedto stabilize both C and E.
(18:52):
So you've got this, you know,sort of circle of synergistic
ingredients that keepregenerating each other and keep
the antioxidant um effective,really.
It's it's so fascinating.
You know, Pennell did all thiswork in the 90s, and I published
extensively on his work.
And, you know, he was a genius.
(19:13):
He took his cues from nature.
He actually started looking atvitamin C because of its ability
to regenerate collagen, and itwas shown that topical vitamin C
could help with wound healing.
And so he was he his first paperwas really written about wound
healing and how importantelascorbic acid was to the
formation of collagen.
And then I guess the light bulbswent off with him.
(19:34):
And he's like, wait a minute,collagen, wrinkles.
He was a genius.
I met him at the AmericanAcademy of Dermatology quite by
chance.
He was showing some before andafter pictures to somebody, and
I was peering over his shoulderand I was like, What did that?
And he goes, Oh, that's topicalvitamin C.
And I was like, I mean, I kindof looked at him like he was
crazy.
(19:54):
I'd never heard of such a thing.
And you know, the rest ishistory.
I was very fortunate to hementored me and got me
interested in antioxidants.
And I served as a consultant forhis company for many, many
years, which he ultimately soldto L'Oreal and turned into skin
suitical.
So it's kind of a you know, asubject that's near and dear to
me because of my relationshipwith him.
SPEAKER_01 (20:16):
Well, it just makes things like this so much more
special when you have thatpersonal connection.
Yes.
I can't imagine how incrediblyproud he must be just seeing
what you've accomplished andwhat you've done.
SPEAKER_02 (20:26):
Well, and he was always so supportive of me.
I remember I wrote my firstchapter on vitamin C and asked
him, like, could you give mesome pictures, before and after
pictures, which he shared withme, these incredible photos.
And I honestly I still use todayin lectures because they're so
well, it's so well documented.
But yeah, it it was a veryspecial relationship.
And he did a lot for dermatologyand really was the first person
(20:48):
to be talking about topicalantioxidants, two
dermatologists.
SPEAKER_01 (20:52):
Well, that's fascinating.
You know, I really appreciateyou coming in today and talking
with us.
I know you're incredibly busy,you're running around, running a
conference, and you gifted uswith some of your time and
expertise.
I really want to thank theScience of Skin Summit for
allowing us to come on, Dr.
Patricia Ferris, also Dr.
Ted Lane.
Thank you guys for inviting meto come on and record the
(21:13):
podcast.
It's been an excitingopportunity for us and to bring
this to our audience.
SPEAKER_02 (21:17):
We're so happy to have you here and thank you for
having me.
SPEAKER_01 (21:20):
Of course, of course.
And we'd love to have you againbecause we could talk about
these things.
We could talk for a long time.
Well, thank you again forlistening.
If you like this episode, pleasehit like and subscribe and stay
tuned for the next episode ofDermotter Don't Swear About Skin
Care.
SPEAKER_00 (21:35):
Thanks for listening to Dermotrotter.
For more about skincare, visitdermittrotter.com.
Don't forget to subscribe, leavea review, and share this podcast
with anyone who needs a littleskincare sanity.
Until next time, stay skinsmart.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.