A Lens on Life and Design: A Conversation with Photographer, Simon Devitt

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Have you ever found yourself mesmerized by a childhood slideshow, each frame a stepping stone on the path to your future? Simon Devitt, a renowned New Zealand photographer, joins us to share a laugh and trace the serendipitous journey from those familial beginnings to the pinnacle of architectural photography. With his camera, Simon captures more than structures; he documents the intersection of human experience and design, reminding us that every picture holds a story waiting to be told.

This episode is like a well-curated gallery walk, guiding you through the delicate art of 'slow photography' and the profound influence of fleeting moments. We debate the gifts and curses of digital technology in the creative world, all the while drawing lessons from tennis courts and kitchen organization. Simon's vivid recollections, from selling cameras to working with Sir Ian Athfield, illustrate how those who walk with us, even briefly, can redirect the course of our creative rivers.

Join us as Simon imparts the wisdom gained from teaching photography to architecture students—lessons about presence, observation, and the surprising creativity borne of stillness. And just when the path seems too solemn, Simon lightens the trek with his spirited views on balancing online professionalism with the joy of sharing a good meme. We wrap up with a poignant reminder of the power behind capturing the essence of architecture, knowing full well the conversation is far from over, as we navigate our own storied landscapes.

0:12 - The Influence of Family on Photography
12:48 - The Art of Slow Photography
27:58 - Influential Moments in Creative Pursuits
34:50 - Exploring Architecture Through Photography
50:03 - Reflection, Photography, and Teaching
57:43 - Creativity, Boredom, and Memes
1:08:57 - Architectural Photography Importance

https://simondevitt.com/

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Episode Transcript

Gerard Dombroski (00:12):
hello and welcome back to the design
principles podcast.
You're here with myself, gerard, sam and ben our usual hosts
and today we have a very specialguest with us, mr Simon Devitt
the man, the maestro, the myth,the legend, the meme lord.
Thank you.
For those who don't know Simonhe's a photographer, mainly in

(00:39):
the architectural world, butdefinitely not limited to the
architecture world, extremelyprevalent across New Zealand and
his webs are going wider acrossthe world.
Very much a household name andvery stoked and honored that you
could join us today, simon I'mthrilled to be here.

Simon Devitt (00:57):
thanks for asking me on guys really honored to be
here.
Thanks, easy.

Gerard Dombroski (01:02):
Stoked.
I guess, to start off, it wouldbe awesome to hear a little
backstory, because I don't thinkI know your backstory how you
got into photography.

Simon Devitt (01:15):
Backstory.

Gerard Dombroski (01:15):
Saw something you were born beside a camera or
something.

Ben Sutherland (01:19):
Yeah, I guess you've been doing it for a while
.

Simon Devitt (01:24):
My ethos is very clear that I never let the truth
get in the way of a good story.
That brings us to the camel.
But we have to go further.
Well, not further back.
We have to go slightly forwardof that to being able to blame
my dad.
You know it's good to blameyour parents, so I figure let's
just throw that in there becauseyou got it right.

(01:46):
Chuck is with a livingcorrection for anything that
they should have done, that wewanted them to do, that they
didn't, that we know about nowbut didn't know about before.

Sam Brown (01:55):
Nothing like living vicariously.

Simon Devitt (01:58):
I feel you know all about this, sam.
We need to have a chat aboutthat.
So Dad was a really avidamateur photographer.
He had a lovely Minolta SLR.
It was always loaded with slidefilm, transparency film.
And wherever we went and we wentsort of far and wide we lived

(02:20):
in the States for a number ofyears when we were kids he would
photograph us and that wouldalways end up as a slideshow
projected onto the wall at homeand I was just absolutely
enthralled to see not just wherewe went but us as a family in
those places.
And there was something aboutthe projected image on the wall

(02:42):
that was really significant forme.
I mean, I don't think I wouldhave been able to tell you at
the time what that was, being ayoung fellow, but looking back
now, really profound really interms of that image making the
venue for collectively, sociallyviewing the image together,

(03:02):
because largely photographymight be viewed in a gallery on
a wall or at home in an album,potentially for that family
context, but then it's in a bookand it's probably sort of more
one-on-one, quite a personalthing, often not shared.
So slideshows are sort of whereit kicked off for me.

(03:27):
So, um, it was that familygathering, the family photo
really sitting at the center ofmy practice as a photographer,
or certainly how I startedimagining what it might be like
to be a photographer, but alsothen, even more than just that,

(03:48):
seeing the world as pictures,often through the car door, in
the back seat, while mum and dadwere driving, you know.
And when we were in the Statesit was a red Thunderbird with
white leather, very, very bling,very gangster, and the window

(04:08):
at the back was round.
So I kind of got this view onthe world, this periscope sort
of portal view that you know,looking back again, it was quite
unusual, but those were myearly kind of influences.
Dad made some beautifulpictures and you know, looking
back at the photo albums now,they're really treasured

(04:30):
memories but also they're a wayto transport ourselves back to
those moments in a flash.
You know it's pretty cool.
So, yeah, I blame my dad.

Sam Brown (04:41):
Was there any focus in your dad's photography on
architecture in particular, oris it just sort of general
family, everyday life typeimagery?

Simon Devitt (04:50):
Mostly everyday life.
Like you know us in placeslargely, and I think the reason
why a family photo is soimportant, particularly when
we're all together in onepicture, probably staring down
the barrel.
When we're all together in onepicture, probably staring down
the barrel, we in one moment getto look at ourselves and each

(05:12):
other and have that ability tocompare and place things in one
picture really quite quickly.
And I don't, you know, for methat's a hugely valuable
experience, a valuable moment,and I think that allowed me a
way to look at what we're all upto as humans.

(05:37):
So it's probably more than justbeing about architecture for me
, which I obsess about, it'sprobably more sociological,
anthropological, it's probablyeven sitting further back than
just the conversation aboutarchitecture and it's looking at
what we're all up to, where welive, where we work, where we

(05:58):
play, what that all looks likeand I think a fascinated, really
deeply curious way that my hopeis that it allows me to make
images that don't just describethings, that hopefully they
beckon questions as well yeah, Ihad a friend go on a big old

(06:20):
ski trip a number of years backand then they him and his
friends that were on the triporganized this big event of like
a slideshow and that like eventof sitting down with a whole
bunch of people around like aprojector was pretty awesome.

Gerard Dombroski (06:39):
And then everyone's like recounting
stories about certain thingshappening.
I love that.
I think you should do that atthe City Gallery or something.
You should get the whole cityand Simon Devitt sit-down.
Slideshow.
Love a slideshow, it'd bepretty fun.

Simon Devitt (07:02):
I mean, I've replaced well, I've satisfied my
urge to have that communal typeslideshow with the talks that I
fairly often do, which is, youknow, not just me talking, thank
God, but also pictures thatI've shot and maybe other people
have made as well along the wayto make reference to.
So I kind of get my fill onthat, that.

(07:25):
But I think that's a, that's agreat idea.
And I'd seen, um, uh, nanGolden's documentary, and I
forget the name, but, uh, herwork is incredibly fascinating
and it's a different type offamily photography that she does
, and I was inspired by seeingher documentary that it would be

(07:47):
a good idea to buy a big 35mmslide projector and get some of
the old slides out.

Gerard Dombroski (07:57):
What are your parents' ones?
One of those rotary ones thatwere like chuk chuk, chuk chuk.

Simon Devitt (08:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean hard to beat that sound through
in this and the sound of thefan cooling the motor down.

Sam Brown (08:09):
yeah, yeah, pretty pretty nice yeah, I distinctly
remember family slideshow nightslike that growing up at my
granny and granddad's house.
He was a, a server, uh, inantarctica, in the outback, and
you know we'd sit down and doexactly that same thing.
Everyone would gather around,would have grandma's chicken and
we'd sort of sit there andwatch the slideshow and be

(08:30):
unbelievably hot in the room,mainly because of the slide,
slide chain or the projector and, um, yeah, like those memories
are forever and it's sort ofinteresting that we don't have
that engagement with a photoanymore, or we're not really
afforded that opportunitybecause we have a hundred
thousand sitting on our phone,you know yeah, that's it.

Simon Devitt (08:52):
um, yeah, that slide projector bulb would run
at about a thousand degrees,intensely loud fan, just to just
to calm things down a bit, butit was all that sensory aspect
to it that went with it, right?
So it was all these ingredientsto you know, family being there
, too hot, yeah, the sound ofthe thing, probably, the smell

(09:14):
of dust on the bowl, yeah, uh,and then all these um memories
being projected on the wall,some of them clearly quite
embarrassing if you're half nudeor whatever, but all, really,
you know, yeah, really important, like I think.
Yeah, for me, still, it'sdefinitely about, you know,

(09:35):
looking at what is thefoundation that I stand on, what
is that made up of?
Where do I stand, particularlywhere I'm making, where and when
I'm making pictures, and, uh, Ialways come back to, and it
always sits with me that, theimportance of, of, of family,
pictures of family and and thoseorigins yeah, so it's a bit of

(09:58):
a.

Sam Brown (09:58):
It's a bit of a jump, but what?
What takes you from, from thatmemory or that beginning to
where you are now?

Simon Devitt (10:09):
There are always people along the way and you
know I blame Dad significantlyand you know deserves every
second of it in the bestpossible way.
And then probably wasn't reallyuntil high school, like fifth
form, where you know we'retalking back in the 1800s here.

(10:30):
So the teacher you know there'salways a teacher, eh, that gets
through, there's always onethat you get along with, that,
you know, leaves some reallygood things with you, imprints,
stuff that you are willing tolisten to and take on board.
There were a few teachers likethat for me, but my photography

(10:51):
teacher was pretty great and Ithink that was really the first
time I started to thinkseriously that this could be
more than just a whimsicalthought of a seven-year-old
watching slideshows, that therewas something else about it.
I had no idea then, of course,even at high school, that you

(11:13):
could be a photographer ofarchitecture.
I knew nothing about that, butI certainly knew that trying to
make sense of the world andmyself in it with a camera felt
pretty good and it was somethingthat I was intensely curious
about.
It allowed my curiosity toreally fizz, and that's only

(11:37):
sort of gotten more fervent, Ithink.

Ben Sutherland (11:41):
Yeah, it'd be amazing, be really interesting
to hear about your cameraprogression, as in did you start
off with film and then at somestage move to digital and then
perhaps in and out, or because Iwould imagine going through
that uh area where kodak wassort of becoming overtaken or a

(12:04):
little bit more redundant.

Simon Devitt (12:07):
Yeah, that happened much later, Ben, for me
, because you know, it washorses and wagons and holding
candles when I was around, so itwas definitely film and my
professional career started in94.
So it's been a little while.
But within architecture it wasreally sort of in 97, 98 that

(12:36):
things kicked off and I had alarge format Sinar camera with
an 810 back on it, so shootingjust transparency film, and then
after that I got into a fujimedium format system.
So I was running both polaroidbacks, um, and with film and

(12:56):
transparency film in particular,there's no latitude for for
mistakes.
You you get the shot or youdon't, and it lives and dies on
the lab floor.
So it was really for me great tohave that foundation of
photography sitting within.
You know, it really felt likethe roots of photography were my

(13:30):
school ground.
You know where I learned to.
You know, cut my teeth and makesure on the shoot the pictures
were good, not afterwards inPhotoshop and being transparency
film, you're literally paintingonto a black surface.
Uh, you're adding light andthat makes the picture and it's

(13:52):
not like it's not a white canvas, it's literally black.
So for me, if that, that senseof creation, that making, that
exploring, that part's neverleft me.
Going to digital didn't makeany difference to how I go about
making the pictures that I make, so it's always felt important

(14:13):
to justify every element in apicture you know, right to the
edges.
In fact, the edges are probablythe most important part of the
composition for me, where I'mable to in some way acknowledge
the rest of the world or what Ichose to leave out, and thinking
about all of that, thatinstinctive decision-making in

(14:35):
terms of what's included andwhat's not in that composition.
In that moment it's always fromblack.
It's always the way I thinkabout it, the way I approach it,
the way I resolve things and,ultimately, my relationship to
it it's interesting.

Sam Brown (14:53):
You can almost draw a similar parallel to your
journey to, say, an olderarchitect who cut their teeth,
doing everything by hand, andyou've sort of got a far more
intimate relationship maybe withyour work when you're doing
that, whereas our generation notsaying that this is the case
across the board.
But you know, in a digitalgeneration where we expect

(15:14):
results faster, we work quicker,we don't sort of have that more
careful considerationfoundation.
Do you see, or do you have anyadvice maybe?
Or do you see sort of youngerphotographers coming up that
maybe don't have that base thatyou have had?
Do you think they suffer or doyou think that they're lacking
something because of that?

Simon Devitt (15:36):
I think there's um , there's definitely, for me,
been a benefit to coming fromthe analog past and I think the
direct comparison I would makeis that, now that I've had some
years now in digital, I cancompare those two things, and

(16:00):
the ability to compare issomething that's incredibly
powerful and it can also bequite destructive, because we
know as children, when we firstlearn about our, our ability to
compare, we also know as adultsthat um too much comparison can
be quite, quite nasty.
So we, um, we have that innateability and me looking at the

(16:26):
digital realm of photographywhen, I compare it to film
photography where I started.
It's a little bit like comparingfast food and slow cooking.
I would make that comparisonand so I can do that.
It doesn't mean someone who'sjust had their photography

(16:48):
career or learning in digitalcan't do that, it's just that.
That's what I'm able to.
That's the comparison I canmake, and I think it's a really
useful one, because we live, Ithink, in what is a very fast
food world where everything isimmediate now, and how much is
enough?
Well, it's never enough,particularly in the case of, you

(17:12):
know, a lot of westerncountries, and america seems to
lead the way in that, and and soit's.
It's only when we can usefullycompare those two things, or be
aware that there are two things,perhaps in this case, where, if
we did use that fast food, slowcooking analogy that if our

(17:35):
life is really quick andconvenient and we're able to
have whatever we want when wewant it, what does slow cooking
look like in your life?
And if we can't make thatcomparison or ask that question
in a useful way, then we don'tknow any different and we don't
know what we don't know.

(17:55):
I think it's really useful that,if we use another metaphor, say
tennis great sport.
I never played it particularlywell, but I really enjoyed it.
We could say that in tennis, ifour life was just quick all the
time, convenient, modern dayliving, it would be like playing

(18:16):
tennis at the net, volleyingthe whole time and not knowing
that behind us, if we were awareof it at all, if we just were
aware, simply to look over ourshoulder and see a whole court
there waiting for us.
And my comparison that I wouldmake is that slow cooking is a
little bit like being aware thatthere's a whole court behind us

(18:38):
, that we can move to the back,look at the opposition, look at
the crowd, look at the sky, thenet, and we have lots of other
decisions we can make.
So it's about being able tomake really useful decisions,
given that we can then comparewhat slow cooking is versus fast
food.

Sam Brown (18:56):
It's a really beautiful analogy.
I mean it goes beyond thecreative realm.
It applies to life in general.
I think anybody can take awayfrom that.

Simon Devitt (19:04):
Yeah, thanks, and I think, as photographers or
anyone that's creative, as yourightly point out, because I
think the thing about being aphotographer for me is that
anything that I'm challenged byor confronted by in life gets
put under a microscope when Ipick up a camera, so they're no

(19:25):
different.
It's literally holding up amirror to what's going on.
I think that's the opportunity.
Whether that happens foreverybody I don't know, but for
me I know that that's definitelyprofoundly the case and really
important and really important.

(19:45):
And then so the decisions getto be things like I was talking
to some I mentor quite a fewpeople these days online and the
conversation I had last week.
It's a little bit like cleaningout the kitchen or the scullery
and it feels great becauseyou've just created a whole lot

(20:09):
of space around the things thatwere in there, instead of it
just being wall-to-wall clutter,which kitchens can often be,
particularly when you've gotyoung kids and so it feels great
when you've made that spacearound things.
But it doesn't take too longweeks sometimes, maybe months if
you're lucky for that to fillback up again.
So if we have that ability tocompare and understand that, we

(20:34):
have the different choices tomake around what is fast food
and what is slow cooking.
Then how are we creating spacearound those decisions we make,
or simply even maybe holdingspace and not filling it in,
consciously or otherwise, withsomething anything?

(20:56):
So one of the challenges Ibring to the people in my
mentorship is that we have thisopportunity to make some space
and the temptation is to fillthat in really quickly with
something you know more Netflix,maybe a yoga class, if you're
picking something that's maybebetter for you than Netflix.

(21:20):
The objective of the exercisethat I bring to them is that
we're just holding the space,we're not filling it in, and
that's really difficult becauseour temptation is to always
consume more, do more, add more,be more Because we can, it's
immediate, we can do that.

(21:40):
We can do that Sometimes.
I think it's a good way toexercise and subjugate our fast
food lives and acknowledge thiskind of slowness that's really
valuable in life by asking somereally useful questions like I

(22:01):
don't know yet, and use that asa way to hold space and in a
creative capacity.
I think that's not only anopportunity, I think it's vital
that we can do that.

Gerard Dombroski (22:19):
Micro sabbaticals.
I really like that analogylooking back and seeing a big,
open tennis court behind you.
It's this kind of unspoken, Iguess, expectation to keep
outputting and I think socialmedia has a role to play in that

(22:40):
like make a new project, get itphotographed, put it up more
and more, more.
So you're like pumping out ahuge amount of work, but it's, I
think, just trying to get intothe rhythm of stepping back
every now and then and makingsure you're doing what you
actually want to be doing.

Simon Devitt (23:01):
I agree completely , and I think it's not that fast
food is a bad thing.
I think we're just really goodat that one thing, often at the
expense of how else.
Can we do this?
If we take a slightly differentperspective, which is what I
think the opportunity is, thenwhat does that look like if we
just sit from the sameperspective the whole time and

(23:26):
we can do the fast things reallywell, really quickly.
We're already good at that.
But are we good at the slowstuff, like, are we good at
really just holding space,taking time, doing things slowly
, with a bit more consideration,a bit more consciousness around
it?
I think then we're doingsomething else and we're really

(23:47):
able to jump between doingsomething quickly and then
choosing another way to do it,in a way that's more appropriate
for not everything being thesame.
When we're busy, it seems to bethat everything sort of feels
bookended back to back and quitesamey.

(24:08):
And being busy is great, don'tget me wrong.
I'm really grateful for beingable to work with an incredible
number of very talented people.
But in the same way that weknow music, because of the
silence between the notes, whenit's busy it's just a noise, I

(24:30):
think, and we need, we needanother way to understand the
world, to take a slightlydifferent perspective.
In the same way, if we werejust driving a car the whole
time, which is fun, love driving, but how different is that
world when you're a passenger?
In the same way, if we werejust driving a car the whole
time, which is fun, love driving, but how different is that
world when you're a passenger,when you move one foot to the

(24:51):
left, that experience is worldsapart.
How two things can look reallysimilar but be so completely
different.
And so I think it's those sortsof perspective shifts that
become vital in any creativecapacity, any creative pursuit,
in any life.
It is about life and living.

Sam Brown (25:15):
These views, simon, are incredibly profound and
thank you very much for sharingthem.
It would be really interestingand you've sort of touched on it
in a way, I think but like howyour personal and your life
views, how they reflect in theway that you approach your work
and even framing your shots andthings like that as well,
because it sounds like the waythat you approach life is to try

(25:36):
and provide space and breatheand, you know, look at it at a
bigger picture and sort ofbeyond the realms of the norm.
Maybe it's simplifying it toomuch, but how does that then
transpose into your photographywork?

Simon Devitt (25:55):
It's lots of things that can you know for the
sake of argument.
It could be one thing, but Itend to think it's connected in
lots of different facets of lifeand in some, in some way, it's
probably a coping mechanism.
You know what I mean.
Like it's a, it's a way to finda solution, it's a way to

(26:16):
explore, it's a way to findthings out from a probably a
very largely naive point of view, like a way of learning that
says I don't know yet and that'sokay, and learning by necessity
, I think really really key, andmaintaining those very high

(26:37):
levels of curiosity that I knoware really incredibly valuable.
Well, to be honest, by now it'sprobably the only way I can do
it.
So it's, it's how I do it.
It and that's how it occurs tome and that's the kind of realm
I've explored in and from man,this is, this is epic.

Gerard Dombroski (26:59):
What an epic yarn.

Ben Sutherland (27:01):
Yeah, I'd be really interested to know, just
adding to that, if there was anysort of external influences
that kind of led you to, to someof those kind of outlooks.
I know you've.
You've spent a lot of timeoverseas and you have the
privilege of just seeing andmeeting so many amazing people

(27:26):
as a you know, throughout yourcareer.

Simon Devitt (27:29):
So, yeah, just be so interested to hear it's, um,
I mean, it's always about thepeople right and and who we do
surround ourselves with, andi've've mentioned two so far,
but it's a cast of hundreds,isn't it?
It takes a village always, anda myriad of people along the way

(27:54):
friends, family.
Sometimes people come into yourlife for only a really brief
moment.
I think of some people thatprobably had, you know, one or
two encounters with, but theywere really significant moments
and really memorable for me.
Some of them, some prettyterrific architects who have

(28:19):
since passed on here.
You know, sir Ian Athfield had ahuge impact on my life and how
I look at what I do, but that'sone person and he was
significant and he was amazing,and his incredibly beautiful

(28:40):
wife, widow Claire, is stillaround and remarkable.
Yeah, you know, behind everygreat man you know, there's a
great woman, and Cleo iscertainly pretty great, or is,
and so it's lots of peoplealways, and where that starts

(29:04):
and stops, who knows?
It sort of blends beautifullyinto one big melting pot.
But there are so many storiesand so many people that go along
with those stories.

Ben Sutherland (29:20):
Does that include photography mentors as
well as in other photographers?
Or was your career moreself-taught kind of, or just
working with other architects oryeah, yeah, unusually.

Simon Devitt (29:38):
I mean I had a little bit to do with some
photographers along the way, butI'm probably still very
stubborn.
I kind of wanted to do it myway and make those mistakes.
And, looking back, I think Iassisted once for half an hour
and really hated it, and he is agreat guy, like you know.

(30:01):
He's passed away since and hewas a really terrific fashion
photographer and lovely man andsadly his life ended well before
it should have and sadly hislife ended well before it should
have.
But that was my one briefassisting memory and probably

(30:21):
more compelling for what itwasn't than what it was.
You know what I mean in a weirdway, and so I treasure that
weirdly as well.
You know, amongst other thingsthat have happened, and so I
didn't have initially, early on,been a lot to do with other
photographers.
I had other friends that didother things that I was really

(30:44):
more, probably more interestedin, like sculptors, filmmakers,
painters, and so I surroundedmyself and I think the early
influences for me were thosepeople that did those things and
also, you know, film makers atlarge and and painters through
you know, seeing shows atgalleries here and around the

(31:07):
world and, um, buying lots ofyou know later on buying lots of
other photographers workthrough their books, yeah, and I
got a little bit carried away,so there's a couple of thousand
of those.
Now I'm not allowed to buyanymore.
I'm allowed to sell one andreplace it, and that's it.
That's a good one and I lovethose books and I treasure them.

(31:33):
But at some point that influenceand inspiration has to be not
ignored but sat down, because Ithink at some point in any
creative pursuit you've got tobe your own inspiration yeah
there's only so much you can doto and so much benefit you will

(31:54):
get from looking at otherpeople's work.
I mean, yes, it's important, butis it the only thing?
And should there be a lot of it?
I think there should be, youknow there should be some, but
it shouldn't be overwhelming.
I think it's, then, about themaking and reflecting.

(32:20):
I've done a lot of writing, andI think that's been really
important for me, you know, toget some of those thoughts down
on paper out of my head.
I know that what rattles aroundupstairs here is not real.
It's not real until I speak itor I write it, and so it's been
really useful for me to, youknow, have those conversations

(32:42):
with people and also write itdown and make shitloads of
mistakes along the way.
You know some stuff that wouldbe so embarrassing I couldn't
even tell you.
You know I did things like Isold cameras at a consumer level
and to professionals after that, just doing things that I
thought would help absorb orallow me to make decisions about

(33:07):
.
What is it like being aphotographer and doing things
like printing film badly, butprinting film and selling
cameras and the last job I did,before I sort of pushed myself
out the door was a night shiftjob printing police forensic

(33:29):
photographs and looking back,that was pretty gnarly awful
stuff to look at.
It's quite the contrast.
Bit of a contrast, yeah.
But I always saw, you know,light at the end of the tunnel.
I knew that wasn't going to befor long or forever.
So I always sort of and I donow think any experience is an

(33:58):
opportunity for something new,and so I really saw those
forensic images as another wayto tell a story.
You know, from the verymicroscopic right up to the very
broad view, and in that sense,in that context, nothing could

(34:22):
be left out, otherwise thatcourt case could be thrown out
you know so from forensicphotography, you know your
involvement with sculptures andother artists and and things.

Sam Brown (34:36):
what in film?
What led you to architecture,where, particularly in our field
, you're most well known now?

Simon Devitt (34:47):
it's um.
Well, I have to go back a littlebit further and that was when I
you know, new Zealand being theway New Zealand is, everyone
knows someone, so it's sort ofone degree of separation, and I
was quite keen on trying outwhat it would be like to

(35:09):
photograph sport, and you know,in the very early days.
And so what had led up to thatwas me walking the streets,
really city avenues, rural backblocks, suburban cul-de-sacs,
and just sort of observing andlearning what you know, what

(35:30):
does this all look like?
And you know, the questionnever gets greater for me than I
wonder what this will look likeas a picture.
And the grass has never got anygreener ever.
And so it was those reallyearly days where I was like,
well, that's really intriguing.
I developed really high levelsof curiosity really early on.

(35:54):
And it went further into saying, well, what would you know,
what would being a sportsphotographer look like?
And so somehow, for some reason,I was able to convince a sports
photography agency that Ishould be at the america's cup
in in 1995, san diego, my wifeI'm sort of fucking boat race in

(36:20):
my life.
But here I am, you know, onthis quest boat day, one of of
of the semi-finals, I think itwas, and there's three other
photographers in the skipper andthe seas were huge like just
gnarly.
They shouldn't have been racing, probably, but they did, and

(36:41):
those three photographers werejust sick as dog green sharing
the toilet.
Nothing could have gone worsefor those guys.
So I had the whole boat tomyself on the skip.
I could tell them where to go,what we're going to do.
I was just having a great timeand that was all again 35 mil

(37:01):
transparency Like I couldn'tfuck that up.
I mean, I certainly did some ofthose shots that kind of
necessary anticipation forwhat's happening next.
I had to learn really quicklyon the spot how to make good of
that situation and I think it'sthose really early days that set

(37:22):
me up for what I do now andwhat I've done for you know, I
think it's nearly 27 years now.
I think it's nearly 27 yearsnow.
So it was leaving sport behindquite quickly because it felt a
little bit like living out of asuitcase too much.
I mean, I certainly live out ofa suitcase quite a lot now, but

(37:46):
it's a different, I thinkbroader view on the world for me
.
Looking at architecture, itdraws in so many different
fascinating aspects of life.
So architecture allows me tolook at a really big view, a big
picture of what we're all up to.
And again it's that slightlypulled back view on the human

(38:12):
condition.
I think and you know someone'ssaid it way better than I'd ever
be able to say it it's sort ofthat outward expression of what
lies within, when we look atpeople's homes in particular.
And so my curiosity is reallyabout making pictures, that sort

(38:34):
of fend off that camera's realdesire to describe and look a
little bit closer than that andtry and suggest what it might be
like to be there, how thatfeels.
And so that's my position.
That's where I sit with,looking at that house, those

(38:57):
people in that house, thatenvironment, that landscape.
And you know, yes, I've been tohundreds, maybe even thousands
of other shoots before that one,but never that one.
And so I turn up early and Ileave late.
And so I turn up early and Ileave late, and in between I'm
exploring, moment by moment,wondering what something will

(39:22):
look like as a picture, andinviting in what Ath called so
beautifully chance encounter andhis influence and inspiration
on me in terms of creatingarchitecture.
That did that and doing thingslike activating the edges was
just so important, is soimportant to me now, but just

(39:42):
struck me like a bolt out of thesky.
It was just really, reallyimportant stuff.
Athol's probably the mostun-architect architect I'd ever
met, you know, and I wouldn't bethe first one to say that.

Gerard Dombroski (40:00):
Yeah, yeah.

Simon Devitt (40:01):
Special man.

Gerard Dombroski (40:03):
I was quite struck when you did the photos
for my place, just how patientyou were.
I've had like friends orsomething do photographs before
and like sort of get there andyou, you take it.
It is kind of what it is, butlike it was, it was pretty

(40:24):
impressive watching you work andthank you like the weather
changed quite a lot during thatday and you'd sort of sit there
and wait for the light, so thatwas pretty epic to watch
actually.
Oh, thanks.

Simon Devitt (40:40):
I think that was my looking back at that shoot
and that weather on that day.
It was probably my favoritecondition that it is changing
all the time.
You know, have that rich sortof you know intense new zealand
sun coming through dark, rollingclouds.
You know, for me that doesn'tget any better than that because

(41:01):
you are caused to wait andwatch and listen and smell and
just see what's going on andthen maybe, maybe you take a
picture because something caughtyour eye or, you know, you
wondered what it might look likeas a picture.

Ben Sutherland (41:16):
So just zooming in on that excuse the pun what
are some of the things that youkind of look at when you're
picking shots?
It'd just be good to know, fromlike a designer's perspective,
having like a photographer comeon board, if there's any sort of

(41:37):
prep work that should be done.
Or yeah, just a little bitabout your process when you're
actually shooting.

Simon Devitt (41:48):
There's not a lot of thinking going on.
I'll tell you that much.
There's not a lot of thinkinggoing on, I'll tell you that
much.
It's, uh, it's a lot of, um, Ithink, spontaneously reacting to
moments, and a lot of peoplewould say, you know, if you want
to, you know, choose somethingthat doesn't move like a house,
and then you've got all all day,you know, and, and it's easier

(42:09):
than, uh, animals or babies, but, um, I think there's a lot
going on every moment,particularly with new zealand
weather, and then if you addpeople to that who inhabit that
space, um, or the environmentaround it, then there's a lot

(42:32):
going on all the time.
And if we're moving the wholetime, then I think we're sort of
missing out on a lot.

Sam Brown (42:46):
You know, I certainly move during a shoot, there's no
question, but I also standstill quite a lot, and I think
that's probably what gerardobserved it's interesting, simon
, you describing your shoot atgerard's place and then also
your process now, and it soundslike it's very much a reflection
as well on your analog past.

(43:09):
How much through these, throughthese shoots, are you taking
photos as carefully as you wouldwith an analog camera, or are
you a little bit more triggerhappy and then a lot of it
happens in post yeah, and greatquestion, sam.

Simon Devitt (43:25):
I think if you weren't using the technology
you'd be an idiot.
And some people have gone backto using film cameras too, and I
still have some and I love them, and it is a different way of
working, for sure, but I stillwork pretty close to how I
worked then.
Um, there might be, it allows meto work quicker, I think, sam

(43:49):
Sam is the way that I woulddescribe it so that I'm able to
explore more and quicker, and sothat's how I see it and I think
that's the opportunity.
But I'm also really aware thatI don't like paying people to do
any retouching for me, so Ireally do the work at the time

(44:09):
on the shoot.
And so when I'm doing anyproofing which I've been doing a
bit today, and then maybe handit over to Khan, who does all my
retouching and has done forlike 16 years, I'm not paying
him extraordinary amounts ofmoney.
He's not cheap, so I do pay himfairly well, I think.

(44:31):
But there's very little to doin post for the most part.
There might be some necessaryretouching, but largely there's
really bugger all to do.
I like kind of getting it rightin the camera, because that's
what I hate to do with film andI find that really satisfying.

Ben Sutherland (44:54):
Yeah, that's impressive.

Sam Brown (44:59):
The people in the shots thing is an interesting
one.
I'm actually just above mycomputer here.
I've got a series of photos ofthe Serpentine Pavilion in
London over the years and thepeople comment that you made
made me just quickly look atthem and think and half of them
are inhabited and half of themaren't.
And it's interesting becauseyou do see a lot of

(45:20):
architectural photography thatisn't inhabited, which is odd
because all buildings are andthey're designed to be, and it
seems to me to be a necessity.
But what's your, I guess?
Be interested to know what yourthoughts are on that.

Simon Devitt (45:33):
Well, we live in a world where we have these
enormous mortgages that you know.
If I just think about theamount of interest I pay each
year alone, it does my head in,so I try not to.
And so when I turn up atsomeone's house, I'm also aware
they're probably going to be atwork.
You know that's not always thecase and I love it when people

(45:57):
are at home or in a building orat a school, which is often the
case at a school to include themin at least some of the
pictures, whether it's observing, naturally, what's happening in
the house and I becomehopefully invisible, or whether,

(46:19):
in some instances, there issomething that is set up to
allow for something engaging tohappen in that area at that time
because of that light.
So both things happen.
Other times.
It's really important tounderstand what something is by
also understanding what it's not.
So there can be and by virtueof being necessary, when I turn

(46:44):
up to a house and no one's there, I still want to make pictures
that give the sense of somethinghas happened or is about to
happen, and those can be prettypowerful moments and they don't
have any big ones.

Sam Brown (46:57):
That's so interesting yeah nice.

Simon Devitt (47:01):
So both are really great.
But whatever situation I findmyself in, you know I want to
make the most of that moment andthat situation, because my
clients have worked really hardfor a number of years, often
with some pretty brave clientswhose dream has come true.
Ultimately, they've createdsome pretty beautiful

(47:27):
atmospheres for me to play in,you know, to see the light
affecting that living room orthat kitchen, that backyard in a
certain way, and I feel thatresponsibility greatly, not in a
way that constricts mycreativity, but in a way that

(47:50):
I'd say enhances it.
It's like an active constraintthat allows me to refine my view
.
That's the way I see it.
It's a real honor for me.
I just feel really luckywhenever I show up to these
incredible projects, know,incredible projects where
ultimately someone's dreams cometrue.
You know it's pretty special.

Sam Brown (48:12):
I mean you must have shot thousands through the
course of your career.
Now, do you have any standoutsthat you can pull out of your
head in terms of projects?

Simon Devitt (48:21):
Yeah, hard to have favourites.
I mean, some projects certainlyhave more layers than others.
You know what I mean, andthere's something quite
compelling about that.
In terms of beauty, it's not aguarantee, because we also know
that huge budgets don't alwaysmean impeccable taste.
The fact is, guys, I'm not thereto have an opinion either.

(48:44):
I'm not being paid to have anopinion.
No one gives a shit about whatI think about those projects,
except that I am present enoughto make a series of beautiful
pictures that reflect what'sgoing on there and the beauty

(49:04):
inherent in those things and thelayers that show up.
You know, sometimes there aremultiple layers that show up and
that's great.
Other times very few layersshow up.
But you know, I'm still reallypresent to making the most of
whatever is there to make themost beautiful pictures or

(49:25):
beguiling, hopefully, enticingsuggestive pictures that I can.

Ben Sutherland (49:32):
Yeah, and you're obviously I mean your career
speaks for itself.
Really, your brand has justprogressed a lot over the years.
So, yeah, it'd be interestingto hear you know talking about
your brand a little bit more andhow you think that's kind of

(49:52):
going and where you think it'sgoing to lead you in the future.

Simon Devitt (49:59):
Yeah, I think.
Thanks for asking that, becauseit's not always easy to reflect
from the inside out.
It's often really goodquestions like that, ben, so I
appreciate that.
I think I've been really goodat sowing seeds consistently

(50:21):
over a long period of time andI've been willing to put in an
immense amount of work at thesame time and I continue to do
that and I love it I've probablygot better at being home more
often now, which is good newsfor me and my family.
So that part I love.
It's that beautiful fight to beat home.

(50:43):
But counter to that is you knowthat I go to some pretty pretty
goddamn beautiful places and getto hang out with some very cool
people, and so, from from anearly time in my career, I was
able to be a photographer andthat a lot of that meant, uh,

(51:06):
the making of things and being aphotographer for me.
I really need to, for me tofeel like I am a photographer
and you really need to feel likeI'm not just in the realm of
pixels all the time.
For me, photographs don't growup dreaming about becoming
pixels they just don't.
And so to about becoming pixelsthey just don't.

(51:26):
And so to really feel like aphotographer, like I am a
photographer, I need to bemaking, I need to be printing, I
need to be making books.
And in 2011, or late 2010, I wasgiven the opportunity to teach
photography to architecturestudents at Auckland University.
To teach photography toarchitecture students at

(51:50):
Auckland University, and thatwas a glorious 10 years of
really finding out theincredible privilege of what it
is like to teach.
But what I learned reallyquickly was, if you're teaching
the right way, you're learningtwice, and that's become a huge

(52:10):
part of my brand, if we want tolook at it as brand.
But I think even greater thanthat, and again it's that fast
food realm versus slow cooking,it's easy to confuse culture and
brand.
I think it's more important tolook at things in terms of
culture, if we can Culture andbrand.

(52:30):
I think it's more important tolook at things in terms of
culture, if we can brand, interms of a part of that culture,
if enough time has played out.
And so the teaching part for me, I couldn't be without now.

(52:52):
I just love it, and that was,that was um, a huge amount of
discovery in a relatively shortamount of time.
10 years is quite, you know, adecent chunk of time, but I did
a huge amount of exploring inthat time and I was able to
create a curriculum for thosestudents that, for some reason,
they let me do that, which wasreally interesting.
But they did that and I, youknow, I didn't want to bore

(53:14):
people shitless with ones andzeros and f stops and shutter
speeds and god kill me, I'd justbe asleep in five minutes.
So I was more interested in umlooking at, probably looking at

(53:34):
who's showing up.
I mean, yes, the camera, yes,making the pictures.
But I think you know I canreflect on this pretty clearly
now, but back then I was, youknow, stumbling my way around,
you know, the pictures, theclients, those moments, the
coffees, the business,downstream, I would say, and

(53:58):
then upstream who's showing up,like, are we able to make really

(54:19):
clear enough distinctions toreally understand what's behind
those moments?
We find ourselves in where weare curious, and I think they to
one of the very first exercisesthat I created for those
students at Auckland Universityand I don't think they really
knew what they were in for.
But the first exercise and it'sone that I still do now and I

(54:41):
find it hugely valuable and it'sreally quite well, it's
deceptively simple, to the pointwhere you go what's he even up
to, that guy, and then you findout that it's incredibly
frustrating and annoying.
So you become you know thesestudents become quite angry with
, with men, frustrated, um, butthen by the end of it they sort

(55:04):
of see the point and theobjective and and what happens,
and the exercise is puttingsomeone in a very public
situation that's legal and safe,and with a camera and a lens,
and they're not allowed to movefrom that spot, like at all.

(55:25):
I can't walk away from thatspot.
You can sort of turn, you know,spin around or whatever.
Sit down maybe if you reallywanted to.
You can't move from that spotfor two hours.
And would we purposely do thatto ourselves ever?
Probably no, because that'sreally weird and unusual.
To ourselves ever?

(55:46):
Probably no, because that'sreally weird and unusual, the
benefit being that we liveconstantly in a state of motion,
in a state of in order to, in astate of transition, almost
like life is an airport.
We very rarely stand still andnotice what's happening around

(56:08):
us rather than us happening init.
David Trubridge, you knowincredible lighting designer,
innovator, gentleman, likeamazing human, and a really
early story he told me was aboutthe time him and his family
spent on some of the pacificislands and a boat builder, a

(56:30):
waka builder, told him aboutbeing on those early boats that
explored, you know vast oceans,in order to get from you know
where they were to where theywanted to to go, or at least
explore, not even knowing wherethey wanted to go, or at least
explore, not even knowing wherethey wanted to go.
And everyone on that boat had ajob to do.

(56:51):
And so everyone moved about theboat in order to get the job
done, make sure they were movingsafely through the ocean and
get to where they intended to go, except for one person, and
that was the navigator.
So those people moving aboutthe boat, the world occurred to

(57:13):
them that they were movingthrough the world, which is not
altogether unsurprising.
So the navigator, who satperfectly still and observed
everything about the boat, allthe subtlety of those things on
the boat, like the water lappingup against the side of it, the
way the moon glinted in thewater, the sound of the wind
quite a different read on beingin one place, only because they

(57:36):
were perfectly still.
And so the world occurred tothat navigator that the world
was moving past them.
And that's a very subtle butimportant distinction I make
about how I am when I pick up acamera on a shoot or I'm in a
place or with family, you knowin a moment, and so that

(57:59):
standing still for two hours isdeceptively simple.
They're in a public place.
The first thing they will feelis very self-conscious, because
you're standing there like adickhead, with your camera and
all these people around, and yougo.
Oh cool.

Ben Sutherland (58:17):
What's he doing?
What's he doing Knob?

Simon Devitt (58:23):
And so there's that, and that's predictable.
The next part is why did Simonmake me do this?
I could kill him right now, andso that happens.
And then some people get noteveryone, as I've discovered,
but most people get quite bored.

(58:43):
They're like all right, seen itdone, it took a few snaps, look
at them, yeah well, if you takeyour phone, you're fired.
What happens now and that's theobjective is that we, beyond
noticing those other things,what happens next?

(59:05):
Noticing those other things,what happens next, and like any
good book that we're reading orany you know any photo book
worth its time being printed,the question is always I wonder
what happens next.
And then you turn the page andthat's where the rubber hits the

(59:29):
road man, like if you're tryingto tell a story with anything,
with architecture, withsculpture, with photography.
There's to be that level ofcuriosity, that level of
fascination, I think and we livein a world where we're never
bored We've always got adistraction.
We've got our phones rightthere, our watches bottle of

(59:52):
wine, netflix, whatever it is wecan be distracted in a
heartbeat and, being humans, wecan justify that without even
being consciously aware that wedid that, even being consciously
aware that we did that.
And so the necessity to bebored is vital to any creative

(01:00:16):
pursuit of anything, whetherthat's the making of things,
living in life.
And that's a creative pursuit,that's a creative act, whether
you're making or not.
But I think we need to be bored.
It allows our minds to wander,and we, if our minds aren't

(01:00:36):
wandering, they're just stuck inhere and they're not being
exercised.
And I think it's so important,so vital, that we're able to
exercise and let our mindswander.

Sam Brown (01:00:48):
It's beautiful.
It's actually made.
Thank you, simon.
That's a really beautifulexplanation and sort of has made
me think a little bit moreintrospectively about my
approach as well.
I know we're sort of runningtight on time time, so it might
be I'd say it'd be remiss of usto to end the chat without

(01:01:10):
asking about your memes.
And you've given us thisincredibly detailed and
beautiful and in-depth, deep,in-depth view on your life and
your approach and your creativeart and everything.
So I've got to ask what's upwith the memes?

Simon Devitt (01:01:32):
and the way you asked it was never by design.
Like it's kind of like puttingcheese and timber together and I
did see that sign.
Like these guys are doingcheese and timber.
That's quite special.
Why they're doing that, I don'tknow.
Anything can happen.

(01:01:55):
Sure, the memes?
I think we find ourselves in apretty, at times, serious world,
and nothing more serious thanwhen we struck COVID, too, like
what was going to happen next.
We had no clue and it was apretty scary time, albeit when
we reflect on being at home somuch.

(01:02:16):
It was pretty great too forsome of us.
We were lucky.
Others were not so lucky.
You know, people you know bythe busload were dying too, so
it was pretty awful.
A lot of families struggled.
I'd been collecting because I,you know, like a lot of people,
I love to have a good laugh, andI'd been collecting memes to

(01:02:40):
share with friends for a longtime before that probably.
You know, I look back to thecamera roll and the, the
screenshots to maybe 2011,something like that, and then
covid.
For some reason, I sort ofthought, well, why don't I share
those?
A little bit further afield andin the way instagram was at the

(01:03:02):
time and it's sort of changinga lot.
Now.
It's really easy to to sharewith friends and and other
people on online um, all thosesort of screenshots that curated
, uh, funny bone view on on theworld and there's some pretty,

(01:03:22):
some pretty great memes.
It's a really fun thing toshare and memes are sort of made
to be shared, or so I thought,until recently when someone did
complain and that was, I think,then my, my view of the world
changing around.
It was something that I noticedand even though I tagged that

(01:03:46):
person, they complained toInstagram and that was enough
for Instagram to act on it and Ithought, well, that kind of
sucks Big time.
Because it wasn't just anaccount for memes.
It was an account you know thefront end business in the front
and party in the back.
You know what I mean.

(01:04:06):
Like it was a seriousphotography account with a lot
of archival merit and a lot ofinterviews with some amazing
people through reading room andthen in the stories you know
some funny memes that would bethere and then gone again.
But the same guy, it turns out,who complained also then tried

(01:04:30):
to blackmail me to try and getyou know my account back and I
was like well, no no, I won't bedoing that.

Sam Brown (01:04:40):
Just move on.

Simon Devitt (01:04:41):
So move on and any new experiences and opportunity
, you know, and albeit kind ofannoying and you know I prefer
it didn't happen it's alsocreated a whole swathe of new
opportunities and newconversations and new ways of
looking at things that weren'tthere before.
So not invited, not designed,but there it is.

Sam Brown (01:05:06):
Yeah, nice.

Ben Sutherland (01:05:07):
Yeah, so I take it, we won't be seeing any more
memes.
Unfortunately, a lot of peoplelike those well, not on that
account.

Simon Devitt (01:05:16):
They do and I do too and I love, uh, sharing them
and um, um, I miss that.
Like the world suddenly gotquite serious again and not very
funny very quickly and I itpissed me off.

Sam Brown (01:05:31):
Yeah, it's real shame really.
It's sort of that joy isimmediately stripped out by
malicious intent.

Simon Devitt (01:05:40):
Yeah.

Sam Brown (01:05:41):
Yeah.

Simon Devitt (01:05:43):
But there you go, we're.
We're in control only ever ofour effort and our attitude, and
that's it, and everything elseis.
You know, whatever.
That is yeah, and this is oneof those moments where I
certainly didn't get to choose.

Sam Brown (01:06:00):
But follow SD underscore meme lord on
Instagram.

Gerard Dombroski (01:06:05):
Meme account.
I'm joking.

Simon Devitt (01:06:11):
Yeah, I was warned by someone who used to work for
Meta that they are very quicklyand I did notice it in the
weeks that came after thataccount being shut down that the
way they allow people to sharethings is changing really
quickly.
So you know it's got to betough for them, right, like in

(01:06:32):
terms of avoiding litigation andfuture retrospective litigation
, I mean imagine being in thatworld.
I mean like that, yeah, that'dbe hard work, yeah, so I kind of
get also.
You know, life just got a bitmore serious.

Ben Sutherland (01:06:49):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Gerard Dombroski (01:06:52):
Oh, it's been amazing Any kind of last words
of wisdom.

Ben Sutherland (01:06:58):
I guess before we kind of wrap things up and
let you go, yeah.

Simon Devitt (01:07:06):
I brought water to the game and apparently it's
about beer, so I'm it's friday.

Ben Sutherland (01:07:10):
We normally record on a tuesday, you know,
and it's uh, it's fridayafternoon, so all right, I feel
lucky and I I've never had afoursome before, so I'm really
thank you first time, prettygreat.
I don't know.

Simon Devitt (01:07:27):
Yeah, thank you, gents.
Loved every second.
You know some pretty greatquestions, so thank you.

Sam Brown (01:07:36):
Yeah thank you, incredible Thank you so much.

Ben Sutherland (01:07:38):
It's been extremely insightful.
Yeah, it's crazy, when youenter a conversation like this,
you think it's going to go oneway.

Gerard Dombroski (01:07:46):
But yeah, sorry, you go, gerard I was just
saying I'm a big fan of, likethe awareness of where you're
coming from and like theintentionality behind it and the
being able to step back andsort of reassess things is
pretty impressive.
I think, like architecture owesa lot to photography, like

(01:08:10):
there's no architecture historyto the masses anyway without
photography.
We as architects are indebtedto photos and are collectors of
photos, lovers of photos, yeah,and we'll always Great point.
So it's pretty awesome to havesomebody like yourself that
comes at it very intentionally.

(01:08:31):
And we talked the other dayabout design having lines of
inquiry.
I think good design shares adeeper thing you're searching
for and I think yourcontinuality of your
conversation, like there's a lotyou're very particular about
and looking to and referencingback to.

(01:08:53):
So I think it's very much thesame sort of design process.
I think, or in my mind I feellike a similar thinking of tying
things together, whether that'shistory.

Simon Devitt (01:09:05):
Yeah, it's really interesting Et cetera, so pretty
epic.
Yeah, well, you know, I'vealways been aware, if nothing
else, of that relationship hasbecome, even as time has gone on
, more important to me, and at areally base level.
The buildings don't travel, butthe pictures do.

(01:09:27):
So the pictures are reallyimportant and they I don't use
this word lightly they need toshow or convey in some sense
what it felt like to be there.
The camera will absolutely tryand take care of how, how it
looked and describe the shit outof it, but a really good

(01:09:48):
photographer of architecture, Ithink, is able to convey how it
felt to be there, and I thinkthat's vital.

Sam Brown (01:09:56):
Yeah, awesome Cool.

Ben Sutherland (01:10:00):
All right, simon thank you very much.

Sam Brown (01:10:02):
I am going to have to go, I have to pick up my
daughter from daycare, but thatwas incredible.
Thanks for your time and yourinsights.

Simon Devitt (01:10:10):
Pleasure chaps.
It would be nice to hook upagain over.

Ben Sutherland (01:10:14):
Don Brodsky Sounds perfect.