October 16, 2024 • 45 mins
Pamela Bell, a trailblazer in New Zealand's architecture and construction scene, shares her inspiring journey from studying architecture to embracing prefabrication and entrepreneurial ventures. Pamela's story is not just about personal triumphs but also about innovating at the crossroads of design and business. Her narrative is a testament to the transformative power of networking and building meaningful connections, which she believes are crucial for success. Pamela's experiences, including founding Prefab NZ and creating influential exhibitions, illustrate the importance of accessible architecture and her passion for pioneering change.
As Wellington faces political and economic challenges, particularly in the construction sector, there's a unique opportunity to rethink and enhance business processes. We discuss how refining brand propositions and supporting local enterprises can drive innovation during these trying times. By highlighting the significant role of industry associations and social enterprises, the episode underscores the necessity of embracing change and maintaining strong networks. Pamela and other industry experts share insights on how staying connected and being proactive can help navigate these challenges and foster new building methodologies.
The evolving role of architects takes center stage as we explore strategic thinking and entrepreneurial approaches in design. This episode highlights the critical gap in architecture education regarding business skills and introduces design thinking as a versatile tool. Personal anecdotes emphasize the value of mentorship and curiosity in building connections, likening mentorship to having a personal board of directors. Finally, Pamela shares her perspective on the power of informal networking, encouraging listeners to engage actively with their surroundings and learn from others to inspire personal and professional growth.
Key Links:
- https://www.pamelabell.nz/
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/pamela-bell-nz/?originalSubdomain=nz
Show Chapters:
- 0:09 - Architectural Innovation and Inspiration
- 10:39 - Embracing Change and Innovation
- 18:09 - Unlocking Architecture's Strategic Thinking
- 21:51 - Entrepreneurial Approaches in Design Thinking
- 26:18 - Building Networks and Seeking Mentorship
- 29:55 - Exploring Architectural Business Models
- 44:58 - Coffee and Networking in Architecture
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
Today on the show we have avery inspirational guest,
someone who's made a significantimpact in the architecture and
construction community in NewZealand and continues to do so
Pamela Bowell.
This is a high-levelconversation with Pam where we
talk about a range of thingssuch as networking, design
(00:31):
thinking, alternative businessmodels and the importance of
fostering strong relationships.
One of my favorite concepts ofPam's is not to be afraid to
reach out and connect with morelike-minded people and always
finish the conversation with whoare three more people I can
have coffees with.
Hope you enjoy the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You've got a next level mic man.
You sound unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's because I'm holding it.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's a podcast voice, if ever I heard one.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Sign me up.
Yeah, you do sound goodactually.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We might just ask you questions, alright.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We've got 45 minutes, so should we crack into it?
Yeah, I guess it's probablyworth starting with a.
I know you've probably donethis a million times, pam, but
maybe like a bit of a background, just for the to.
To summarize, I know you'vegone from the amazing
accomplishment to amazingaccomplishment, so so worth a
summary.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, cool Kia ora e te whānau Ko Pamela Bell toka
ingoa.
I'm Pamela Bell and I have thebenefit of hindsight because I'm
over 50.
Now I can look back andactually see a theme which I
didn't see when I was obviouslyjust a sprog.
So from studying architecture Itook a break and was curious
(02:11):
about sport, because I've neverbeen any good at it, but I'd
grown up in the mountains withmy family, my whānau.
We loved the snow.
I still love the snow, and Ifollowed that path through
snowboarding, which was justemerging and it was really
entrepreneurial.
It turned into World Cup andOlympics for snowboarding, which
(02:32):
is a nice way to put a pin init.
Then I was able to go back toarchitecture school.
What I found really interestingat architecture school is all
this narrative-driven stuff.
I just thought it was bullshit.
I was really interested inwhat's not a model or a drawing,
so I did stuff like hand inclothing and jewelry and
magazines and my final yearproject it was a catwalk with a
(02:56):
model that fainted, whichmanaged to help me evade a few
curly questions from Peter Wood.
But I was super interested.
Then, after doing a little bitof architecture practice and
getting sick of lining upsomeone's bathroom tiles in
their third bathroom when Ithought they only needed one
bathroom to start with, I gotout of practice and went back to
(03:18):
uni and did a master's, whichwas a really stupid decision
because it was right before itturned into a master's degree
anyway.
So I was probably one of thelast voluntary master's people.
But I was super curious aboutprefabrication and being way
more efficient.
I didn't totally get this wholecustom approach that
architecture has and doing stufffrom scratch.
(03:39):
That just didn't make sense.
So I did a thesis on Kiwiprefabricated housing and it was
all first-hand research, whichwas awesome because I had a
small baby by then and I justneeded to get out of the house
every now and then.
So I got to do first-handresearch from Kaitaia to Wanaka
and then tested that with a bitof a symposium, I guess, back at
(04:02):
Victoria University.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
It was a great, great thesis, by the way.
I think I read it probably adozen times and it was a huge
precedent of my thesis as well.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
That's awesome, ben, because I totally believe in
being accessible and accessiblearchitecture, accessible writing
, architecture for the people,connecting with people, none of
this black turtleneck, blackrimmed glasses scenario, you
know.
So for me it's all about justwriting in really common
language.
And so, because I had no ideawhat happens after a thesis, I
(04:38):
did that splatter gun approachand put in, you know, for
applications for grants to turnit into an exhibition, to turn
it into a book.
And then I didn't anticipate atthe end of that symposium that
people would be like, okay,let's make an industry
association and why don't?
Why don't you do all the hard?
Mahi, fam and I was like, oh,whoa, okay, so by then I had
(04:59):
like two children and, um, astartup, writing a book and an
exhibition, and it all kind ofhappened at the same time.
It was probably the most intensepart of my life because also my
husband at the time lost hisfather and was kind of plunged
into depression.
And you know we talk about workall the time, right, but work's
the easy bit.
All the life stuff right thenwas just intense.
(05:22):
But the really good thing waswe got a kiwi prefab exhibition
in Tanaki, at Pukiariki, in NewPlymouth, there, and there were
houses outside that people couldwalk into around the waterfront
and there was a full likehistory inside and all these
cute little puzzles that kidscould engage with.
So it was that total likesomething for everyone.
(05:44):
You know, people in their likebuggies and all the rest just
walked into with.
So it was that total likesomething for everyone.
You know, people in their likebuggies and all the rest just
walked into these houses and itwas just super fun.
It was really entrepreneurialfun time whole pre-fab and Zed
stuff, just like snowboarding.
You know it's all like thestart of something.
That's where I get my buzz is inthe startup or the refresh or
(06:07):
you know like when new thingsare happening at the junction
between, like design andbusiness.
I know I've just given a waylonger answer than you wanted,
ben.
Where I've landed now is um.
So I drove prefab nz for about10 years.
As soon as fletcher had afactory, as soon as the
government was doing stuffaround policy, I was like man,
(06:27):
my job is done.
This has been fun, but I'm ayou know, I'm a starter, not a
process maker.
So time to hand it over tosomeone else.
And I was super curious aboutbig stuff like government or big
commercial.
So I tried that wholeconsultant contractor thing for
a bit and I got to try a littlebit of stuff around Kainga Ora,
(06:50):
around this quite interestingtech platform out of Australia
which was about certifyingbuilders so clients know if
they've got a four star or fivestar or god help, worse builder
that they're buying off theplans.
Yeah, icert independentconstruction industry rating
tools based on like over 200data points Super interesting.
(07:12):
But you know that was throughCOVID.
I was lucky I was alreadyZooming and working from home.
So I got through COVID and thenI was like, hmm, people you
know, quite keen to have a teamagain.
So I saw the Institute ofBuilding and I don't know what
you guys know about theInstitute of Building, but I was
like that's a middle-aged whiteboys club.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Let's get in there and shake some stuff up.
It doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
And they were like, oh yeah, we want to do this.
And I was like, are you sure,are you sure you really want to
do this?
And I was like, are you sure,are you sure you really want to
do this?
Because once I'm in here, youknow we're going to need to put
in some innovation and inclusionand encourage the young people
to get involved.
But yep, so I've been there twoyears and, yeah, I was shaking
up some shizzle.
It's good fun, and I do agovernance stuff on the side, um
(08:01):
, as well, because I'm curiousabout how boards work and how
strategy works and I lovespotting the gaps and problem
solving.
So that's kind of my passionstuff.
Social housing, innovation andconstruction, um, so stuff like
abodo wood, which is, you know,thermally modified timber or
cooked wood yeah um, with nonasties.
(08:23):
Uh, stuff like Urban Plus, whichis a social housing developer
which is owned by Hutt City.
Yeah, so a few things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So yeah, that's my little mix.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I like having a bit of a mix going on.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Spotting the gap, the opportunity, and then adding or
innovation, is like.
I mean, this industry has hadvery little of that over the
years and now it's like I don'tknow.
I think it's like it's soawesome and I think a lot of
people need to push that evenfurther if if at all possible I
(09:00):
think, I think we we probablydon't shine the light on
innovation enough.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Ben, I reckon if you walk onto any site, there'll be
a bunch of folks doing stuffdifferently, but we're not
measuring it, we're notcapturing it.
You know, we have this likeshitty credential that we have
one of the worst, lowestproductivity industries, but I
have heard a lot of people talkabout how we maybe don't capture
that stuff.
(09:23):
Like I've just come right nowfrom the opening of, or the
launch of, rooms to Rumour,which is conveniently in Tawiki
o te Reo Māori, our Māorilanguage week, and it's driven
by an architecture firm, PiroThorpe, with our Māori language
(09:44):
commission, and it's aboutadding maori room names into,
you know, autodesk, it's like itmakes a huge sense yeah, it's
just a start, right.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
But yeah, that's like , yeah, people are doing
innovative stuff that's a smallinnovation that has a big impact
, really, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
even small stuff takes a long time, like I reckon
they've been working on thatfor a couple of years, you know?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah, how this might be a bit early in the
conversation and maybe this is abit of a trigger, but how are
you finding, you know, recentchanges in policy and the built
environment in terms ofinnovation?
I feel like we've just taken ahuge step backwards recently.
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
that's a super broad question, sam um.
Yeah, sorry, no, no, I thinkit's really important uh to talk
about.
You know we operate at so manydifferent levels, right, you
know the 10 000 foot view is thewhole political ecosystem and
right now, well, we're here inum Wellington and it's like
(10:54):
super sad.
I think, Patty Gower wrote anawesome article and stuff a
couple of days ago aboutWellington needs hugs.
We so do, but we need somepretty tough love hugs too.
Right, we've just got to pickourselves up and support each
other, support local business.
You know, we've experienced6,000, 7,000 redundancies in our
(11:19):
government sector.
Our construction andinfrastructure sector is really
having the toughest time I thinkany of us have lived through
yeah, even worse than the gfc.
You know, firms that have beenaround since then are laying off
people when they've never hadto do it before.
But you know, this is where wehave to jump into that kind of
(11:42):
half glass full or makinglemonades out of lemons scenario
, which is this is our time toconnect with each other, really
make sure we know whereeveryone's at and we're either
poised or we're collaboratingalready.
Get our marketing super sorted,know exactly who we are, what's
the niche, what do we own?
You know, because the smallerthat space is, then we're the
(12:02):
expert in that niche.
So it's a time to really drilldown into your brand proposition
, your value proposition.
What do I offer clients?
Stay super connected, which Isaid, and also a time to do that
stuff that I'm not a big fan ofbut we have to sort out our
processes, make sure we're justlike super efficient.
We've got all our tech sorted.
(12:23):
You know all that stuff, that'sreally important.
So I just think we're reallygood at winding up and we're
really rubbish at pausing anddealing with quieter spots.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
It's sort of what we've foundis it's this year well, even
last year, last year, last yearand this year in particular,
it's been sort of ananti-productivity or an
anti-production campaign realmin which we're working.
But what it's provided is thatit's provided us with the
opportunity for innovation,because you're just given you're
(12:58):
, you're, you're offered thechance of time and space to
think a little bit differentlyand to and to change processes
and things.
And I think that's what's quiteinteresting, to be nice to see,
and I think we're starting tosee it a little bit as well.
When we sort of come out theother end, yeah, that there's
going to be much better policiesin place, much better systems
(13:19):
in place, much betterconstruction methodologies in
place, because we've beenfinally afforded a bit of time
to think differently, which isquite nice.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, I think it's all in our approach.
It is a gift, as you say, to begiven time to really think
about what you're doing and makesure you are living to the
values that you're trying todeliver for your clients.
It's also a time to connect,fill your brain, go to events.
I have to say that stuffbecause that's the area I'm in
(13:50):
as well.
Like this industry associationarea has been pretty interesting
for me to kind of get my headaround when we started Prefab
and said I didn't know what anindustry association was.
I mean, I think I've been amember of Te Kāhui Whaihanga
Institute of Architects and nowwork with women in construction,
but I'd never driven anindustry association and we
thought of ourselves more as asocial enterprise, like just
(14:13):
having something on our bottomline other than financial right.
We were trying to make changeand get people opening up to the
idea that there might be otherways to build other than
traditionally, but I think whenyou have a look out there as you
move forward in your career,you've got kind of your skills
and your quals in one hand andthen you've got all your people
connections in the other right.
(14:33):
Our industry is a massiverelationship driven industry.
If you have a look at all yourlinkedin contacts or this
podcast that you guys are doing,it's all about connecting to
other people, getting otherpeople connected, helping the
magic happen, the ideas flow,getting that stuff through to
people, getting them excited andinfluencing them, breaking down
(14:56):
the barriers.
So it's, you know, the peopleside of it's really important.
Now's an awesome time to kindof fill yourself up with
resources and people.
You know, I know that at theInstitute of Building we have a
little series called IndustryInsights and we ran some
webinars on stuff like well,basically how to deal with
(15:17):
interviews and cvs, because alot of people have changed jobs,
uh.
But also we got a bunch of ourboard members in and did stuff
around the state of the industryand I don't know about you, but
it's so good to get togetherwith people in the industry or
adjacent industries and justkind of ask what's on top.
You know, what are those threethings keeping you awake
adjacent industries and justkind of ask what's on top.
You know what are those threethings keeping you awake at
night and just hear aboutpeople's approaches.
(15:40):
That's the most useful part ofany board meeting that I get
involved with is just doing thatround table to start with and
just getting all thoseperspectives in the room, and it
also helps people take theirday hat off and get that board
meeting hat on.
We've got board members whohave got the most incredible
positive approaches.
They spend all day makingbasically business development
(16:03):
calls, coffees, lunches, youname it just basically
connecting with people.
And then they're doing the mahi, the emails at night, like you
can't sustain that for a longtime, but that is a really
interesting approach when youknow you can't just sit at a
long time.
But that is a reallyinteresting approach when you
know you can't just sit at homeand complain, oh shit, my work's
dried up.
You know you've just got to getout there and connect with
(16:23):
people.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, it's a time to be proactive, that's for sure
yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
so that's a different answer to your political
question, because I think we'reseeing some changes in work and
pipeline procurement which isimpacting our industry.
The green shoots, I guess,would be health and defence,
those areas.
Yep, because I'm aWellingtonian, I'm really hoping
(16:50):
there's some pipes in there.
I would like my water to flow.
Not onto the road.
We want it to flow, not ontothe road, not onto the road
through the tap.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, and so, pam, you teach a course at victoria
university.
The design thinking are you.
I don't.
I'm not sure you're still doingthat.
You do it with people like Guyand with Jed and other awesome
innovators, I guess.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, I love awesome humans.
Yeah, so, because I love theintersection between business
and design and because I wentthrough the architecture
schooling system and got alittle bit miffed about day one
when they said, hey, two things,folks, if you're here to make
money, get up and leave now.
(17:38):
And we're like huh what?
And then the second thing theysaid was if anyone, any of your
mates in your flats, in thehostels, are studying law, you
know, stay close to them becauseyou're going to need them later
on.
And we were just like holysmokes, what kind of litigious,
non-paying industry are wegetting into?
(17:58):
So I think there's a littlefailing there.
And then, of course, as you know, they throw you into the fire,
don't they?
You have to stand up and defendyour work.
I went to architecture schoolstraight out of secondary school
and I was shy, hopeless thing,and I saw people who were
returned students.
They were builders, they werenurses, they'd done all kinds of
(18:21):
stuff and they just kind ofknew who they were.
They were able to stand behindtheir work and be like this is
it?
This is me.
I support it.
You know, this is my reasoning,my rationale.
Don't really give up what yourats, what you're going to say
and I thought, oh, that's what Iwant to be like, and so that
helped me take a year out ofarchitecture school that turned
(18:42):
into seven years snowboardingwhen I came back, I was just
like, yeah, you know you just,there's something about
architecture which is so muchabout pulling stuff from within
you.
You go there thinking it'sgoing to be like secondary
school and they're going to giveyou layers of new stuff and you
just absorb it.
But it's the oppositeexperience to that.
It's about pulling things upand out.
(19:04):
It's a hard process to explainto anyone who hasn't been
through it, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I think, a good way of coming out of
architecture school if you canlearn to trust yourself and want
to be yourself, versus likecopying other people's work.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I think the answers mostly are within you yeah,
finding your own design yeah andI think sometimes, if you just
look back at all the stuffyou've handed in through your
five years at architectureschool, you could be like oh
there's the thing, wasn't awareof it at the time.
But be a bit objective yeahyeah so what?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
what does the design thinking process look like?
Yeah, cool.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
So the whole reason um we set up that design
thinking business course wasbecause I wanted young people to
have some way to haveconversations about business,
because I fundamentally disagreethat we deliver a five-year
degree without talking aboutbusiness.
And I know there's a little bitof prof prac in there, but I
(20:07):
don't think that's as useful.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
That is funny.
I mean, that's a start.
Ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
So the other thing I reallybelieve is that architecture is
an awesome degree in thinkingand strategic approach and you
can take that into anything youdo.
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is that in adownturn, folks come out of
architecture school graduatesand do whatever the cool
(20:32):
creative thing is that'shappening at that time.
So at at one point that was,you know, the whole Lord of the
Rings set.
I mean, we had flatmates thatwere creating sets because they
were architecture jobs.
At one point, believe it or not, it was people developing
websites, you know.
So way back in the day.
And then more recently, there'sthis huge rise in something
(20:53):
called design thinking, which iswhere the corporate world has
captured the way architectsthink and basically trademarked
it.
You know the design sprint, etc.
Etc.
So there is no reason whyarchitecture graduates can't go
into local government, centralgovernment, commercial
businesses and teach designthinking.
(21:15):
And I actually think some ofthe consultancies you know the
beakers and acoms and oriconsand thds and wsps of this world
they are starting to pick up onthis around the front end of a
project because of course, theclient walks in the door and
goes, oh, I want a widget, Iwant this kind of building.
But they've just walked in withan answer, right.
(21:37):
The trick is obviously to getthem into the question asking
what's the problem?
To solve phase which is thatdesign thinking approach.
right?
Oh, you don't actually need abuilding, you actually just need
to rejig this.
Do some work from home, blah,blah, blah.
I mean, obviously, the tensionfor architects and consultants
is that you want to sell yourservices, but in the efforts of
(22:00):
sustainability and in seeingwhat's happening offshore, like
places like Norway, wherethey've got much more of a reuse
mandate- we're going to have tostart getting better at solving
people's problems, not alwayswith an architectural solution.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, definitely problems, not always
with an architectural solution.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah,so it's about identifying or
figuring out what the actualproblem is and understanding it
a little bit more in depth thanwhat you'd kind of normally do
and then coming up withsolutions.
Yeah, for the problem, and moreof like an agile approach is
the whole idea to to, to figureit out a little bit faster, so
(22:38):
you get like that, more of likea feedback loop and the
information gets fed back intothe system a little bit better,
as opposed to kind of justdisappearing or like what's the,
where's the?
value look.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
There's lots of ways to look at what design thinking
is and as an approach.
Um, the design sprint isobviously a way to get clients
and a range of stakeholdersinvolved in the design process
and you take them through like ahot box for a week, I think
what's the design?
Really good questions arounddesign thinking.
You know, sorry, I like theproblem to solve or what has to
(23:15):
be true, like there's just somereally good question starters
and obviously there's a lot ofpost-its but um you know, it's
just a way to get people reallyon board the design journey and
I think, uh, that's an importantthing to do in architecture is
to break down the barriers sothat it's not the black teal
neck and glasses, it's not athem and us, it's not different
(23:36):
language, it's everybody in theroom.
You know early engagement, allthat stuff.
But the thing with that designthinking business course is I
think we set it up before COVIDand set it up as a six-week
online, lots of pre-recordedwebinars, and we did really fun
assessments, like got people todo a linkedin profile for
(23:58):
themselves in 20 years time.
We showed them stories of someother grads who had gone on to
like design basketball kicks fornike gone on to do massive
urban design projects likepainting out streets and bicycle
lanes all around the world fromnew york.
So lots of these great storiesso that folks can imagine
(24:19):
themselves doing something otherthan just working for someone
else in a studio.
And then, of course, exampleslike makers first light,
basically like what you guys didin terms of just go out and buy
a c machine and get going, findsome friends get started.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
you know, that's an option too Be entrepreneurial
about it, which is what allthree of you are doing yeah.
I think that wholeentrepreneurial thing is a huge
thing for me anyway, I know youdid like an mba with with seth
godin, who's a absolute master.
One thing that I found,especially through the makers
(24:58):
era, was what I, what we reallyneeded, or what I personally
really needed, was like somesort of uh like mentor to kind
of speed you through especiallythe business realm, because
there's there's like there'sreally no one out there to lead
(25:18):
you or to teach you those theins and outs of what business
actually looks like.
And it really did take us fiveyears to even understand the
basics of business and, similarto you, I went and did an MBA at
Vic there and then I was like,oh my God, like it's just like
(25:39):
what you, you know, what youactually need to know, or what
everyone should know, is justmissing completely from any of
those industries.
So it's so good to see somesort of design thinking,
processes and any kind ofinnovation in that realm is is
essential in my opinion congrats.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I didn't know you'd done your mba.
That's awesome.
Mum was just a baby alt mba andthat's what inspired me to
design that design thinkingbusiness one.
Because that old mba wasdelivered all internationally
like over zoom and slack and sowe used all the same tools when
we did the design thinkingbusiness space.
But you're absolutely right.
(26:19):
Business is one of those funkythings where I think you
probably learn more from doingit so it's good to start with
really low risk option.
You know, just, it's like anyprototype, right, and that's a
design thinking thing too rightMake a messy start, prototype,
learn, reiterate, yeah, sothat's a design thinking
(26:39):
approach.
So, yeah, applying that to yourown business is a lot, makes a
lot of sense.
But also it's like what westarted out, talking about
people and connections.
Alongside your skills andquills, you've got to reach out
and just have a coffee and askfor three more ideas of who to
have coffee with and just havethis massive network of right.
I've got a team problem.
I know who to talk to aboutthat.
(27:00):
Right.
I've got a TST problem.
I know who to talk to aboutthat, and people are always
happy to be asked.
If you validate and help someonefeel helpful, you're doing them
a service.
So it's quite good to turn thataround in your head.
And especially for young women,it's really hard to ask for
(27:21):
help and to perceive that youmight be inconveniencing someone
.
But actually it's a gift to asksomeone to help you because
then they feel useful and Ithink it's great to take that
approach in through any kind ofmentor mentee type relationship.
I think it's great to take thatapproach in through any kind of
mentor-mentee type relationship.
It's just like having your ownboard of directors, right?
Just have a handful of peoplethat you know you can trust and
(27:43):
you can reach out for questions.
Mentors love it if you comewith a really specific question.
Come armed with curiosity.
That's a gift to them, maketheir job easy.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
I find it interesting because going through this
process you know we're arelatively new business like
three and a half years in playand when we started out I think
it was a little bit of, maybe,nervousness, but then also like
a little bit of pride.
You didn't want to like reachout too much because you didn't
want to be seen to be notknowing what you're doing or
(28:15):
failing or anything like that.
But then ultimately, once yousort of swallow that pride and
then just ask the questions,people were so forthcoming and
so helpful and it was not like,oh, you don't know what you're
doing, no, we're not going tohelp you, you need to like make
your own mistakes.
They're like, yeah, we've beenthrough that.
What's the point of likeholding all this knowledge and
not sharing it?
and I was really surprised athow giving the industry was
(28:39):
particularly when we yeah,particularly when we come from
an industry which is inherentlyquite competitive, I find, from
a design perspective.
But you know, at the end of theday, people didn't never looked
at it like that.
But I think that was maybe myown potential insecurities in
starting the business and, youknow, being a smaller fish in a
huge pond yeah you know I didn'twant to ask the questions, but
(28:59):
as soon as you got over that,you know, sam, there is so much
in what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
But first of all, good on you for being objective
and knowing that you felt reallyfunky going into those
conversations.
There's nothing wrong withbeing authentic and going into
the room being like, hey, I'vejust realized I haven't got all
the answers.
Can someone help me here?
I've got some things I'mcurious about, some things I'm
struggling with and you know, ifyou lay that on the table,
(29:25):
someone else will open up and belike oh yeah, I'm struggling
with this too.
You need to take that whenyou're a young parent and I
don't know if any of you guysare, but that is exactly the
attitude you take into all thoseparent meetups.
It's like I'm either going into help someone or I'm going in
with a question that I justcannot solve right now.
And of course, as you know,with parenting you've got to
have 10 ways to solve onequestion, because one thing
(29:47):
works once and then not theother nine times.
But I think what you're talkingabout is there is a mentoring
structure inside architecture,which construction actually
looks at architecture and goes,oh, I wish we could be like that
, because architecture's gotsmall practice groups so you can
make the most of that in termsof being competitive.
You've just got to own your,your niche.
(30:07):
So then you know that no one'scompeting with you, right, it's
your niche, you I know.
But builders and ben you'llknow this it's a different
scenario.
The builders are like we can'tget together because that's seen
as um collusion.
You know we can't get togetherand talk about stuff.
They have got way more of aproblem in this space about how
(30:28):
do I talk about business, and sothere is some work happening.
Right now, the buildingconstruction training fund, the
bctf, is starting a wee projectaround how to get business,
hopefully as a micro credentialso that you can have it in your
pocket on your phone, but into abunch of yeah, trades and stuff
, because it is a real issue.
Everyone just jumps out andbuys a brand new ute starts a
(30:51):
business and doesn't think ohwhat actually do I need tonight.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, it's tough, there's some tough leading
curves out there.
I found, with my scenario, theadded complication of furniture
and objects and such, which I'vefound is like I don't know.
Looking back to when I was justdoing architecture, it was, it
was so easy and I've found itkind of near on impossible to
(31:19):
find somebody who does a similarbusiness model well, that's
really interesting, gerard,because I wonder if you need so
similar or different likedifferent you could talk to
Formway, who are obviously afurniture success story in New
Zealand.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's a scale story, isn't it?
And I'm super happy to connectyou with folks if you want.
And you can talk with anyonewho's in other industries,
because it's that adjacencythat's so interesting.
I know at Prefab and Zed weused to reach out to look at
adjacent industries, like whatis the composites industry doing
, like in yachting around,making super yachts and stuff,
(32:00):
and what's the film industrydoing?
What's the fire engine industrydoing?
Because they were usingmodularization.
So you can look for adjacenciesas well, right?
Yeah, the biggest adjacency whenI talk about a bodo which is um
basically up, um upskilling upvaluing pine.
I talk about um icebreaker orall birds which is taking a
(32:23):
shitty in product and thenmaking an added value out
product, right.
So yeah, find your what do youlike and find another business
model in another industry.
I mean, what other tactics doyou guys use to get business
advice?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Podcast is what I was going to say before.
But the problem with podcastsis it's a one-way street, isn't
it?
You never actually get anyadvice, you just get other
people's perspectives.
But it does broaden the horizonsignificantly.
I listen to a lot ofinternational podcasts and, yeah
, I find them really interestingfor sure.
(32:58):
But nothing beats, you know,one-on-one networking, for sure.
Yeah, you can choose them.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Or you can go through an agency like Business Mentors
New Zealand.
You pay something like a $200admin fee and then you get
connected to someone.
I did that for a few years.
I got Chris Bishop's dad.
John Bishop oh wow.
He was my mentor for a fewyears.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Oh, that's very interesting, but what were you
going to say, sam?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Where do you find your business now?
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Yeah, I was just going to say we share an office
space with a builder and it'sinteresting, even though we are
in the same industry I'd almostsay we're, you know, like you
said, industry adjacent Becausewe're doing, you know, we're in
the same industry but we'redoing quite different things and
we are learning.
You know, over the last, Iguess, year that we've been
sharing an office, we've learnedhuge amounts from each other
(33:52):
and been able to apply them intoour, you know, into our
business structure.
So it's again, it's even like,you know, sharing space with
like-minded people.
You know, I think those, thosesort of work share model type
office spaces are a really goodhub for, for bettering your
knowledge, that's for sure.
And a couple of years ago wewere living down in wanaka and I
(34:14):
shared an office space with.
It was a, it was a film, youknow, a film studio.
Uh, there was a marketingoutfit in there, it was an
interior designer, um, andphotographers as well, and you
know, we're all creativeadjacent, I guess.
But you know, everybody came atthings from a different
perspective and I think in thethree months that I spent down
there, I learned more aboutunderstanding what I wanted to
(34:37):
do as a business, or who Iwanted up or what I wanted the
business to be than I have, andyou know, in the three and a
half years that I've existed.
So just having that differentperspective was super helpful.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, you've just got to find the things that you're
curious about and then go have acoffee with them or move in
with them or have a relationshipwith them in some way, which is
exactly what you're doing, butit's the same way you approach
anything, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
If you want, to learn about it you've just got to go
after it.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It's not going to come to you.
We're doing the same thing.
I'm really interested in whatis an industry association into
the future like into?
Because we're so connectedonline.
What does in-person connectionlook like in the future, and
what kind of digital tools arewe going to need to help
facilitate that more?
So we're about to move into anoffice with a digital technology
(35:28):
agency and a brand agency,because that's where I see that
we're going to learn more andalso they're fun people.
So you've got to go find the funpeople.
And because you know, it'sWellington or New Zealand, Sam,
I know that Ben Nancet is agreat builder and his wife,
Hannah Nancet, is our project'slead at the Institute of
(35:50):
Building, and I know that's oneof the reasons we're talking
today exactly.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yep, yep, I wasn't gonna name drop, but there we go
oh yeah, this is how you giveprops to your people.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, exactly yeah pam, before you touched on what
are, you know, a good businessmodel versus a bad business
model, and how you you werenever really interested in
architecture or the thearchitecture realm and how they
conducted business.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I guess what are some examples of a good business I
really steer away from that goodbad paradigm okay, sorry, sorry
, but yeah I did get pissed offwith architecture because it was
so repetitive and it wasn't, Ithink actually just got a
massive job to teach clients andI hope that's what you guys are
(36:40):
all doing.
This is your opportunity tohelp bring the design language
up right.
Yeah, and it's not slap anothercoat of paint stuff that you
see on tv, it's enduring,generational.
Yeah, really re questioning theway we live.
But, ben, I'll let you finishyour question oh no, I mean,
that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I just wanted to understand, I guess, what a more
successful business model wouldlook like, and maybe that's why
you were interested in prefabin the first place.
I'm not sure more successful.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
There's so much stuff there, right.
I don't know what success meansfor you guys, but when I was
looking at prefabrication what Iwondered about, what I was
super curious about withprefabrication is when it's
architect-led residential.
Why is it not commerciallyenduring?
(37:36):
so there's something in thereabout architects and business
design and business, absolutelyyeah so that for me is the
ultimate curiosity what is thisinterface between design and
business?
How can we make it cool to becommercially successful and do
good work?
And there are some goodexamples out there.
(37:57):
Look at assembly architects inArrowtown.
There's a whole lot of examplesaround the country.
We need to talk about that stuffmore.
It's okay to have a formula ora style or a brand that people
come to you for.
Not everything has to bedesigned from scratch.
(38:18):
You have to have your ownlibrary of reworkable
construction details, whateverit is that creates the
efficiency in your space.
You know a bunch of templatesto know how to do letters and
contracts and dialogue withclients.
Yeah, I just think it's not todemean or take away anything
(38:42):
from architecture, but there's abusiness of architecture that
we don't talk about enough I 100agree.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
My answer to that was to become more of the developer
.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, and that's a classic architect's response is
to try and control everythingalong the way, to design
everything down to the furnitureand the cutlery.
Hello maybe a myriad of wives.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Um yeah, that's a classic I think it's more the
efficiency side that I'd target,though not so much for much the
control, like how to make theprocess more efficient, and
that's probably through controlright.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yes, of course it's connecting up the whole value
chain.
Yeah, and you see that in theStates, at the scale of Warren
Buffett, you know where he's gotthe mortgage enterprises,
everything down to the housesthat come out of the factory.
You know they make 20 houses aday.
I've been into one of thesefactories, like these modular or
(39:41):
mobile home factories, andthey're fascinating.
They're in your kind of Midwest.
The employees are formermilitary.
I've never seen anything likeit in terms of a lack of health
and safety.
they're climbing over each othernailing guns and guns and
they're building these housesfrom the inside out which is
fascinating to watch.
(40:02):
Everything's kind of stapledand sellotaped together and they
are paid something like 12bucks an hour.
But if they make their 20 hourhouses a day in the factory then
they get their kind of 25 bucksan hour.
So they're highly incentivizedand you can.
You can buy a house for ahundred thousand dollars.
(40:23):
So we have not got any kind ofindustry like that here and look
up I'm not saying that on ascale of wrong to right, that
there's a single right but wehave to offer housing at
different scales because in NewZealand at the moment our social
and affordable space is reallydevoid of activity for all kinds
(40:48):
of reasons.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
But, yeah, interesting eh yeah, we tried to
sort of develop something alongthose, along that lines of a
business, you know,off-the-shelf type offering this
year and we've found it.
We developed the designs and weput the packages together and
we have all the informationthere.
But I think what we've kind ofmaybe were a bit naive to a
(41:11):
misunderstanding is you need tomake that jump, you need to have
a partner, or you need to beable to make that jump to it
being a marketable product.
You need to be able to put aprice on it, you need to be able
to like, say, to a client, itwill cost x.
It's a huge jump for us to makeis just, you know, a one-off
architectural firm and I guess,ben, that's where you're talking
about bridging it and havingthat development arm.
(41:33):
But again, it comes back tothose relationships, as if
you're not going to be thedeveloper yourself and control
the whole tree, at least havethat relationship with somebody
that can assist you in makingthat jump as well.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
A hundred percent Collaboration partners, your
coffee network and that's wherearchitects have fallen down
historically is by trying tocontrol everything right through
to the market.
You know other people might bebetter to bring the idea to
market, so it's interesting tosee who you can sidle up with
(42:07):
around branding marketing.
But you're absolutely right,clients want to have knowns and
that's what we realized throughthe whole prefab nz.
Experience is that they want aknown time frame, a known cost,
a known quality.
So it almost doesn't matterwhat it is that you're
(42:28):
describing, as long as you canprovide some level of certainty,
yeah, which is incrediblydifficult in this market where
it's more art than science.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Yeah, and that certainty changes day to day.
A hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, Strictly eh, but I guess there's something in
there about creating repeatablesystems or managing
expectations, not over-promising, making sure you can
over-deliver.
Instead, Something about theway we talk to people in
architecture I think needs tobecome a bit more real.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
The language can be a bit wild.
Like you talked about at thestart, communication is huge
Architecturally.
I like to make concepts thatare decipherable to everyone,
something a little bit easier toread it depends what the
intention of the communicationis.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Are we trying to get clients closer to us as
architect and designprofessionals, or are we trying
to show them how special we are?
And you know language can workin either of those ways
generally.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, like, what level of involvement do you want
?
Like if people can't understandyou, they can't really engage.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Yeah, to Sam's point too.
You know every client wants totutu with the design and they've
got their own expectations thatthey're bringing into the room
right.
And even when we talk to peoplelike Lockwood or any of the
kind of original prefabricatedhousing providers, they would
say that there are no twoLockwoods out there the same.
(44:08):
So everybody wants to changesomething.
So where you can get actualrepetition is probably more
around I don't know the shell ordetails and then you've got a
push and pull.
Yeah, so it's more aboutjunctions or general floor areas
, but yeah it's amazing, isn'tit, people?
(44:29):
It's not like cars, whereanyone's wanting personalisation
.
I mean, the other way to do it,of course, is just to do that
thing, like you do with toddlers, which is to give controlled
choices.
Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea, and you can have that in
either red or green, and, yeah,you can definitely have that
cookie.
You could either have ittomorrow or later on.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Just controlled choices.
I guess clients and toddlerstantrums can be pretty similar
as well, though.
Yeah, yeah, I would add anothergroup to there but I might get
into trouble, so I'll just thatwas mine, oh awesome.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Oh, thanks so much, pam.
We really appreciate you comingon and sharing your vast wisdom
.
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
It's just my own personal perspective.
There's no wisdom.
Don't make it sound so serious.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It sounds wise to me anyway.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Look, I just encourage everyone to go out and
have lots of coffee or whateverit is you like to drink.
And always ask that lastquestion who are three more
people I can have some morecoffee with.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Especially in the environment, right now.
Now, yeah, just get out thereand get amongst it.
Thanks, guys, awesome, thankyou.
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
Today on the show we have avery inspirational guest,
someone who's made a significantimpact in the architecture and
construction community in NewZealand and continues to do so
Pamela Bowell.
This is a high-levelconversation with Pam where we
talk about a range of thingssuch as networking, design
(00:31):
thinking, alternative businessmodels and the importance of
fostering strong relationships.
One of my favorite concepts ofPam's is not to be afraid to
reach out and connect with morelike-minded people and always
finish the conversation with whoare three more people I can
have coffees with.
Hope you enjoy the pod.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
You've got a next level mic man.
You sound unbelievable.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
It's because I'm holding it.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's a podcast voice, if ever I heard one.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Sign me up.
Yeah, you do sound goodactually.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
We might just ask you questions, alright.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
We've got 45 minutes, so should we crack into it?
Yeah, I guess it's probablyworth starting with a.
I know you've probably donethis a million times, pam, but
maybe like a bit of a background, just for the to.
To summarize, I know you'vegone from the amazing
accomplishment to amazingaccomplishment, so so worth a
summary.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Yeah, cool Kia ora e te whānau Ko Pamela Bell toka
ingoa.
I'm Pamela Bell and I have thebenefit of hindsight because I'm
over 50.
Now I can look back andactually see a theme which I
didn't see when I was obviouslyjust a sprog.
So from studying architecture Itook a break and was curious
(02:11):
about sport, because I've neverbeen any good at it, but I'd
grown up in the mountains withmy family, my whānau.
We loved the snow.
I still love the snow, and Ifollowed that path through
snowboarding, which was justemerging and it was really
entrepreneurial.
It turned into World Cup andOlympics for snowboarding, which
(02:32):
is a nice way to put a pin init.
Then I was able to go back toarchitecture school.
What I found really interestingat architecture school is all
this narrative-driven stuff.
I just thought it was bullshit.
I was really interested inwhat's not a model or a drawing,
so I did stuff like hand inclothing and jewelry and
magazines and my final yearproject it was a catwalk with a
(02:56):
model that fainted, whichmanaged to help me evade a few
curly questions from Peter Wood.
But I was super interested.
Then, after doing a little bitof architecture practice and
getting sick of lining upsomeone's bathroom tiles in
their third bathroom when Ithought they only needed one
bathroom to start with, I gotout of practice and went back to
(03:18):
uni and did a master's, whichwas a really stupid decision
because it was right before itturned into a master's degree
anyway.
So I was probably one of thelast voluntary master's people.
But I was super curious aboutprefabrication and being way
more efficient.
I didn't totally get this wholecustom approach that
architecture has and doing stufffrom scratch.
(03:39):
That just didn't make sense.
So I did a thesis on Kiwiprefabricated housing and it was
all first-hand research, whichwas awesome because I had a
small baby by then and I justneeded to get out of the house
every now and then.
So I got to do first-handresearch from Kaitaia to Wanaka
and then tested that with a bitof a symposium, I guess, back at
(04:02):
Victoria University.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
It was a great, great thesis, by the way.
I think I read it probably adozen times and it was a huge
precedent of my thesis as well.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
That's awesome, ben, because I totally believe in
being accessible and accessiblearchitecture, accessible writing
, architecture for the people,connecting with people, none of
this black turtleneck, blackrimmed glasses scenario, you
know.
So for me it's all about justwriting in really common
language.
And so, because I had no ideawhat happens after a thesis, I
(04:38):
did that splatter gun approachand put in, you know, for
applications for grants to turnit into an exhibition, to turn
it into a book.
And then I didn't anticipate atthe end of that symposium that
people would be like, okay,let's make an industry
association and why don't?
Why don't you do all the hard?
Mahi, fam and I was like, oh,whoa, okay, so by then I had
(04:59):
like two children and, um, astartup, writing a book and an
exhibition, and it all kind ofhappened at the same time.
It was probably the most intensepart of my life because also my
husband at the time lost hisfather and was kind of plunged
into depression.
And you know we talk about workall the time, right, but work's
the easy bit.
All the life stuff right thenwas just intense.
(05:22):
But the really good thing waswe got a kiwi prefab exhibition
in Tanaki, at Pukiariki, in NewPlymouth, there, and there were
houses outside that people couldwalk into around the waterfront
and there was a full likehistory inside and all these
cute little puzzles that kidscould engage with.
So it was that total likesomething for everyone.
(05:44):
You know, people in their likebuggies and all the rest just
walked into with.
So it was that total likesomething for everyone.
You know, people in their likebuggies and all the rest just
walked into these houses and itwas just super fun.
It was really entrepreneurialfun time whole pre-fab and Zed
stuff, just like snowboarding.
You know it's all like thestart of something.
That's where I get my buzz is inthe startup or the refresh or
(06:07):
you know like when new thingsare happening at the junction
between, like design andbusiness.
I know I've just given a waylonger answer than you wanted,
ben.
Where I've landed now is um.
So I drove prefab nz for about10 years.
As soon as fletcher had afactory, as soon as the
government was doing stuffaround policy, I was like man,
(06:27):
my job is done.
This has been fun, but I'm ayou know, I'm a starter, not a
process maker.
So time to hand it over tosomeone else.
And I was super curious aboutbig stuff like government or big
commercial.
So I tried that wholeconsultant contractor thing for
a bit and I got to try a littlebit of stuff around Kainga Ora,
(06:50):
around this quite interestingtech platform out of Australia
which was about certifyingbuilders so clients know if
they've got a four star or fivestar or god help, worse builder
that they're buying off theplans.
Yeah, icert independentconstruction industry rating
tools based on like over 200data points Super interesting.
(07:12):
But you know that was throughCOVID.
I was lucky I was alreadyZooming and working from home.
So I got through COVID and thenI was like, hmm, people you
know, quite keen to have a teamagain.
So I saw the Institute ofBuilding and I don't know what
you guys know about theInstitute of Building, but I was
like that's a middle-aged whiteboys club.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Let's get in there and shake some stuff up.
It doesn't surprise me.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
And they were like, oh yeah, we want to do this.
And I was like, are you sure,are you sure you really want to
do this?
And I was like, are you sure,are you sure you really want to
do this?
Because once I'm in here, youknow we're going to need to put
in some innovation and inclusionand encourage the young people
to get involved.
But yep, so I've been there twoyears and, yeah, I was shaking
up some shizzle.
It's good fun, and I do agovernance stuff on the side, um
(08:01):
, as well, because I'm curiousabout how boards work and how
strategy works and I lovespotting the gaps and problem
solving.
So that's kind of my passionstuff.
Social housing, innovation andconstruction, um, so stuff like
abodo wood, which is, you know,thermally modified timber or
cooked wood yeah um, with nonasties.
(08:23):
Uh, stuff like Urban Plus, whichis a social housing developer
which is owned by Hutt City.
Yeah, so a few things like that.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
So yeah, that's my little mix.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I like having a bit of a mix going on.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Spotting the gap, the opportunity, and then adding or
innovation, is like.
I mean, this industry has hadvery little of that over the
years and now it's like I don'tknow.
I think it's like it's soawesome and I think a lot of
people need to push that evenfurther if if at all possible I
(09:00):
think, I think we we probablydon't shine the light on
innovation enough.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Ben, I reckon if you walk onto any site, there'll be
a bunch of folks doing stuffdifferently, but we're not
measuring it, we're notcapturing it.
You know, we have this likeshitty credential that we have
one of the worst, lowestproductivity industries, but I
have heard a lot of people talkabout how we maybe don't capture
that stuff.
(09:23):
Like I've just come right nowfrom the opening of, or the
launch of, rooms to Rumour,which is conveniently in Tawiki
o te Reo Māori, our Māorilanguage week, and it's driven
by an architecture firm, PiroThorpe, with our Māori language
(09:44):
commission, and it's aboutadding maori room names into,
you know, autodesk, it's like itmakes a huge sense yeah, it's
just a start, right.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
But yeah, that's like , yeah, people are doing
innovative stuff that's a smallinnovation that has a big impact
, really, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (10:03):
even small stuff takes a long time, like I reckon
they've been working on thatfor a couple of years, you know?
Speaker 4 (10:09):
Yeah, how this might be a bit early in the
conversation and maybe this is abit of a trigger, but how are
you finding, you know, recentchanges in policy and the built
environment in terms ofinnovation?
I feel like we've just taken ahuge step backwards recently.
What's your thought on that?
Speaker 3 (10:29):
that's a super broad question, sam um.
Yeah, sorry, no, no, I thinkit's really important uh to talk
about.
You know we operate at so manydifferent levels, right, you
know the 10 000 foot view is thewhole political ecosystem and
right now, well, we're here inum Wellington and it's like
(10:54):
super sad.
I think, Patty Gower wrote anawesome article and stuff a
couple of days ago aboutWellington needs hugs.
We so do, but we need somepretty tough love hugs too.
Right, we've just got to pickourselves up and support each
other, support local business.
You know, we've experienced6,000, 7,000 redundancies in our
(11:19):
government sector.
Our construction andinfrastructure sector is really
having the toughest time I thinkany of us have lived through
yeah, even worse than the gfc.
You know, firms that have beenaround since then are laying off
people when they've never hadto do it before.
But you know, this is where wehave to jump into that kind of
(11:42):
half glass full or makinglemonades out of lemons scenario
, which is this is our time toconnect with each other, really
make sure we know whereeveryone's at and we're either
poised or we're collaboratingalready.
Get our marketing super sorted,know exactly who we are, what's
the niche, what do we own?
You know, because the smallerthat space is, then we're the
(12:02):
expert in that niche.
So it's a time to really drilldown into your brand proposition
, your value proposition.
What do I offer clients?
Stay super connected, which Isaid, and also a time to do that
stuff that I'm not a big fan ofbut we have to sort out our
processes, make sure we're justlike super efficient.
We've got all our tech sorted.
(12:23):
You know all that stuff, that'sreally important.
So I just think we're reallygood at winding up and we're
really rubbish at pausing anddealing with quieter spots.
Speaker 4 (12:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
It's sort of what we've foundis it's this year well, even
last year, last year, last yearand this year in particular,
it's been sort of ananti-productivity or an
anti-production campaign realmin which we're working.
But what it's provided is thatit's provided us with the
opportunity for innovation,because you're just given you're
(12:58):
, you're, you're offered thechance of time and space to
think a little bit differentlyand to and to change processes
and things.
And I think that's what's quiteinteresting, to be nice to see,
and I think we're starting tosee it a little bit as well.
When we sort of come out theother end, yeah, that there's
going to be much better policiesin place, much better systems
(13:19):
in place, much betterconstruction methodologies in
place, because we've beenfinally afforded a bit of time
to think differently, which isquite nice.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Yeah, I think it's all in our approach.
It is a gift, as you say, to begiven time to really think
about what you're doing and makesure you are living to the
values that you're trying todeliver for your clients.
It's also a time to connect,fill your brain, go to events.
I have to say that stuffbecause that's the area I'm in
(13:50):
as well.
Like this industry associationarea has been pretty interesting
for me to kind of get my headaround when we started Prefab
and said I didn't know what anindustry association was.
I mean, I think I've been amember of Te Kāhui Whaihanga
Institute of Architects and nowwork with women in construction,
but I'd never driven anindustry association and we
thought of ourselves more as asocial enterprise, like just
(14:13):
having something on our bottomline other than financial right.
We were trying to make changeand get people opening up to the
idea that there might be otherways to build other than
traditionally, but I think whenyou have a look out there as you
move forward in your career,you've got kind of your skills
and your quals in one hand andthen you've got all your people
connections in the other right.
(14:33):
Our industry is a massiverelationship driven industry.
If you have a look at all yourlinkedin contacts or this
podcast that you guys are doing,it's all about connecting to
other people, getting otherpeople connected, helping the
magic happen, the ideas flow,getting that stuff through to
people, getting them excited andinfluencing them, breaking down
(14:56):
the barriers.
So it's, you know, the peopleside of it's really important.
Now's an awesome time to kindof fill yourself up with
resources and people.
You know, I know that at theInstitute of Building we have a
little series called IndustryInsights and we ran some
webinars on stuff like well,basically how to deal with
(15:17):
interviews and cvs, because alot of people have changed jobs,
uh.
But also we got a bunch of ourboard members in and did stuff
around the state of the industryand I don't know about you, but
it's so good to get togetherwith people in the industry or
adjacent industries and justkind of ask what's on top.
You know, what are those threethings keeping you awake
adjacent industries and justkind of ask what's on top.
You know what are those threethings keeping you awake at
night and just hear aboutpeople's approaches.
(15:40):
That's the most useful part ofany board meeting that I get
involved with is just doing thatround table to start with and
just getting all thoseperspectives in the room, and it
also helps people take theirday hat off and get that board
meeting hat on.
We've got board members whohave got the most incredible
positive approaches.
They spend all day makingbasically business development
(16:03):
calls, coffees, lunches, youname it just basically
connecting with people.
And then they're doing the mahi, the emails at night, like you
can't sustain that for a longtime, but that is a really
interesting approach when youknow you can't just sit at a
long time.
But that is a reallyinteresting approach when you
know you can't just sit at homeand complain, oh shit, my work's
dried up.
You know you've just got to getout there and connect with
(16:23):
people.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Yeah, it's a time to be proactive, that's for sure
yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
so that's a different answer to your political
question, because I think we'reseeing some changes in work and
pipeline procurement which isimpacting our industry.
The green shoots, I guess,would be health and defence,
those areas.
Yep, because I'm aWellingtonian, I'm really hoping
(16:50):
there's some pipes in there.
I would like my water to flow.
Not onto the road.
We want it to flow, not ontothe road, not onto the road
through the tap.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, and so, pam, you teach a course at victoria
university.
The design thinking are you.
I don't.
I'm not sure you're still doingthat.
You do it with people like Guyand with Jed and other awesome
innovators, I guess.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Yeah, I love awesome humans.
Yeah, so, because I love theintersection between business
and design and because I wentthrough the architecture
schooling system and got alittle bit miffed about day one
when they said, hey, two things,folks, if you're here to make
money, get up and leave now.
(17:38):
And we're like huh what?
And then the second thing theysaid was if anyone, any of your
mates in your flats, in thehostels, are studying law, you
know, stay close to them becauseyou're going to need them later
on.
And we were just like holysmokes, what kind of litigious,
non-paying industry are wegetting into?
(17:58):
So I think there's a littlefailing there.
And then, of course, as you know, they throw you into the fire,
don't they?
You have to stand up and defendyour work.
I went to architecture schoolstraight out of secondary school
and I was shy, hopeless thing,and I saw people who were
returned students.
They were builders, they werenurses, they'd done all kinds of
(18:21):
stuff and they just kind ofknew who they were.
They were able to stand behindtheir work and be like this is
it?
This is me.
I support it.
You know, this is my reasoning,my rationale.
Don't really give up what yourats, what you're going to say
and I thought, oh, that's what Iwant to be like, and so that
helped me take a year out ofarchitecture school that turned
(18:42):
into seven years snowboardingwhen I came back, I was just
like, yeah, you know you just,there's something about
architecture which is so muchabout pulling stuff from within
you.
You go there thinking it'sgoing to be like secondary
school and they're going to giveyou layers of new stuff and you
just absorb it.
But it's the oppositeexperience to that.
It's about pulling things upand out.
(19:04):
It's a hard process to explainto anyone who hasn't been
through it, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, I think, a good way of coming out of
architecture school if you canlearn to trust yourself and want
to be yourself, versus likecopying other people's work.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
I think the answers mostly are within you yeah,
finding your own design yeah andI think sometimes, if you just
look back at all the stuffyou've handed in through your
five years at architectureschool, you could be like oh
there's the thing, wasn't awareof it at the time.
But be a bit objective yeahyeah so what?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
what does the design thinking process look like?
Yeah, cool.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
So the whole reason um we set up that design
thinking business course wasbecause I wanted young people to
have some way to haveconversations about business,
because I fundamentally disagreethat we deliver a five-year
degree without talking aboutbusiness.
And I know there's a little bitof prof prac in there, but I
(20:07):
don't think that's as useful.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
That is funny.
I mean, that's a start.
Ten minutes.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah.
So the other thing I reallybelieve is that architecture is
an awesome degree in thinkingand strategic approach and you
can take that into anything youdo.
So that's the second thing.
The third thing is that in adownturn, folks come out of
architecture school graduatesand do whatever the cool
(20:32):
creative thing is that'shappening at that time.
So at at one point that was,you know, the whole Lord of the
Rings set.
I mean, we had flatmates thatwere creating sets because they
were architecture jobs.
At one point, believe it or not, it was people developing
websites, you know.
So way back in the day.
And then more recently, there'sthis huge rise in something
(20:53):
called design thinking, which iswhere the corporate world has
captured the way architectsthink and basically trademarked
it.
You know the design sprint, etc.
Etc.
So there is no reason whyarchitecture graduates can't go
into local government, centralgovernment, commercial
businesses and teach designthinking.
(21:15):
And I actually think some ofthe consultancies you know the
beakers and acoms and oriconsand thds and wsps of this world
they are starting to pick up onthis around the front end of a
project because of course, theclient walks in the door and
goes, oh, I want a widget, Iwant this kind of building.
But they've just walked in withan answer, right.
(21:37):
The trick is obviously to getthem into the question asking
what's the problem?
To solve phase which is thatdesign thinking approach.
right?
Oh, you don't actually need abuilding, you actually just need
to rejig this.
Do some work from home, blah,blah, blah.
I mean, obviously, the tensionfor architects and consultants
is that you want to sell yourservices, but in the efforts of
(22:00):
sustainability and in seeingwhat's happening offshore, like
places like Norway, wherethey've got much more of a reuse
mandate- we're going to have tostart getting better at solving
people's problems, not alwayswith an architectural solution.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yeah, yeah, definitely problems, not always
with an architectural solution.
Yeah, yeah, definitely, yeah,so it's about identifying or
figuring out what the actualproblem is and understanding it
a little bit more in depth thanwhat you'd kind of normally do
and then coming up withsolutions.
Yeah, for the problem, and moreof like an agile approach is
the whole idea to to, to figureit out a little bit faster, so
(22:38):
you get like that, more of likea feedback loop and the
information gets fed back intothe system a little bit better,
as opposed to kind of justdisappearing or like what's the,
where's the?
value look.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
There's lots of ways to look at what design thinking
is and as an approach.
Um, the design sprint isobviously a way to get clients
and a range of stakeholdersinvolved in the design process
and you take them through like ahot box for a week, I think
what's the design?
Really good questions arounddesign thinking.
You know, sorry, I like theproblem to solve or what has to
(23:15):
be true, like there's just somereally good question starters
and obviously there's a lot ofpost-its but um you know, it's
just a way to get people reallyon board the design journey and
I think, uh, that's an importantthing to do in architecture is
to break down the barriers sothat it's not the black teal
neck and glasses, it's not athem and us, it's not different
(23:36):
language, it's everybody in theroom.
You know early engagement, allthat stuff.
But the thing with that designthinking business course is I
think we set it up before COVIDand set it up as a six-week
online, lots of pre-recordedwebinars, and we did really fun
assessments, like got people todo a linkedin profile for
(23:58):
themselves in 20 years time.
We showed them stories of someother grads who had gone on to
like design basketball kicks fornike gone on to do massive
urban design projects likepainting out streets and bicycle
lanes all around the world fromnew york.
So lots of these great storiesso that folks can imagine
(24:19):
themselves doing something otherthan just working for someone
else in a studio.
And then, of course, exampleslike makers first light,
basically like what you guys didin terms of just go out and buy
a c machine and get going, findsome friends get started.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
you know, that's an option too Be entrepreneurial
about it, which is what allthree of you are doing yeah.
I think that wholeentrepreneurial thing is a huge
thing for me anyway, I know youdid like an mba with with seth
godin, who's a absolute master.
One thing that I found,especially through the makers
(24:58):
era, was what I, what we reallyneeded, or what I personally
really needed, was like somesort of uh like mentor to kind
of speed you through especiallythe business realm, because
there's there's like there'sreally no one out there to lead
(25:18):
you or to teach you those theins and outs of what business
actually looks like.
And it really did take us fiveyears to even understand the
basics of business and, similarto you, I went and did an MBA at
Vic there and then I was like,oh my God, like it's just like
(25:39):
what you, you know, what youactually need to know, or what
everyone should know, is justmissing completely from any of
those industries.
So it's so good to see somesort of design thinking,
processes and any kind ofinnovation in that realm is is
essential in my opinion congrats.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
I didn't know you'd done your mba.
That's awesome.
Mum was just a baby alt mba andthat's what inspired me to
design that design thinkingbusiness one.
Because that old mba wasdelivered all internationally
like over zoom and slack and sowe used all the same tools when
we did the design thinkingbusiness space.
But you're absolutely right.
(26:19):
Business is one of those funkythings where I think you
probably learn more from doingit so it's good to start with
really low risk option.
You know, just, it's like anyprototype, right, and that's a
design thinking thing too rightMake a messy start, prototype,
learn, reiterate, yeah, sothat's a design thinking
(26:39):
approach.
So, yeah, applying that to yourown business is a lot, makes a
lot of sense.
But also it's like what westarted out, talking about
people and connections.
Alongside your skills andquills, you've got to reach out
and just have a coffee and askfor three more ideas of who to
have coffee with and just havethis massive network of right.
I've got a team problem.
I know who to talk to aboutthat.
(27:00):
Right.
I've got a TST problem.
I know who to talk to aboutthat, and people are always
happy to be asked.
If you validate and help someonefeel helpful, you're doing them
a service.
So it's quite good to turn thataround in your head.
And especially for young women,it's really hard to ask for
(27:21):
help and to perceive that youmight be inconveniencing someone
.
But actually it's a gift to asksomeone to help you because
then they feel useful and Ithink it's great to take that
approach in through any kind ofmentor mentee type relationship.
I think it's great to take thatapproach in through any kind of
mentor-mentee type relationship.
It's just like having your ownboard of directors, right?
Just have a handful of peoplethat you know you can trust and
(27:43):
you can reach out for questions.
Mentors love it if you comewith a really specific question.
Come armed with curiosity.
That's a gift to them, maketheir job easy.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
I find it interesting because going through this
process you know we're arelatively new business like
three and a half years in playand when we started out I think
it was a little bit of, maybe,nervousness, but then also like
a little bit of pride.
You didn't want to like reachout too much because you didn't
want to be seen to be notknowing what you're doing or
(28:15):
failing or anything like that.
But then ultimately, once yousort of swallow that pride and
then just ask the questions,people were so forthcoming and
so helpful and it was not like,oh, you don't know what you're
doing, no, we're not going tohelp you, you need to like make
your own mistakes.
They're like, yeah, we've beenthrough that.
What's the point of likeholding all this knowledge and
not sharing it?
and I was really surprised athow giving the industry was
(28:39):
particularly when we yeah,particularly when we come from
an industry which is inherentlyquite competitive, I find, from
a design perspective.
But you know, at the end of theday, people didn't never looked
at it like that.
But I think that was maybe myown potential insecurities in
starting the business and, youknow, being a smaller fish in a
huge pond yeah you know I didn'twant to ask the questions, but
(28:59):
as soon as you got over that,you know, sam, there is so much
in what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
But first of all, good on you for being objective
and knowing that you felt reallyfunky going into those
conversations.
There's nothing wrong withbeing authentic and going into
the room being like, hey, I'vejust realized I haven't got all
the answers.
Can someone help me here?
I've got some things I'mcurious about, some things I'm
struggling with and you know, ifyou lay that on the table,
(29:25):
someone else will open up and belike oh yeah, I'm struggling
with this too.
You need to take that whenyou're a young parent and I
don't know if any of you guysare, but that is exactly the
attitude you take into all thoseparent meetups.
It's like I'm either going into help someone or I'm going in
with a question that I justcannot solve right now.
And of course, as you know,with parenting you've got to
have 10 ways to solve onequestion, because one thing
(29:47):
works once and then not theother nine times.
But I think what you're talkingabout is there is a mentoring
structure inside architecture,which construction actually
looks at architecture and goes,oh, I wish we could be like that
, because architecture's gotsmall practice groups so you can
make the most of that in termsof being competitive.
You've just got to own your,your niche.
(30:07):
So then you know that no one'scompeting with you, right, it's
your niche, you I know.
But builders and ben you'llknow this it's a different
scenario.
The builders are like we can'tget together because that's seen
as um collusion.
You know we can't get togetherand talk about stuff.
They have got way more of aproblem in this space about how
(30:28):
do I talk about business, and sothere is some work happening.
Right now, the buildingconstruction training fund, the
bctf, is starting a wee projectaround how to get business,
hopefully as a micro credentialso that you can have it in your
pocket on your phone, but into abunch of yeah, trades and stuff
, because it is a real issue.
Everyone just jumps out andbuys a brand new ute starts a
(30:51):
business and doesn't think ohwhat actually do I need tonight.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Yeah, it's tough, there's some tough leading
curves out there.
I found, with my scenario, theadded complication of furniture
and objects and such, which I'vefound is like I don't know.
Looking back to when I was justdoing architecture, it was, it
was so easy and I've found itkind of near on impossible to
(31:19):
find somebody who does a similarbusiness model well, that's
really interesting, gerard,because I wonder if you need so
similar or different likedifferent you could talk to
Formway, who are obviously afurniture success story in New
Zealand.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
That's a scale story, isn't it?
And I'm super happy to connectyou with folks if you want.
And you can talk with anyonewho's in other industries,
because it's that adjacencythat's so interesting.
I know at Prefab and Zed weused to reach out to look at
adjacent industries, like whatis the composites industry doing
, like in yachting around,making super yachts and stuff,
(32:00):
and what's the film industrydoing?
What's the fire engine industrydoing?
Because they were usingmodularization.
So you can look for adjacenciesas well, right?
Yeah, the biggest adjacency whenI talk about a bodo which is um
basically up, um upskilling upvaluing pine.
I talk about um icebreaker orall birds which is taking a
(32:23):
shitty in product and thenmaking an added value out
product, right.
So yeah, find your what do youlike and find another business
model in another industry.
I mean, what other tactics doyou guys use to get business
advice?
Speaker 1 (32:38):
Podcast is what I was going to say before.
But the problem with podcastsis it's a one-way street, isn't
it?
You never actually get anyadvice, you just get other
people's perspectives.
But it does broaden the horizonsignificantly.
I listen to a lot ofinternational podcasts and, yeah
, I find them really interestingfor sure.
(32:58):
But nothing beats, you know,one-on-one networking, for sure.
Yeah, you can choose them.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
Or you can go through an agency like Business Mentors
New Zealand.
You pay something like a $200admin fee and then you get
connected to someone.
I did that for a few years.
I got Chris Bishop's dad.
John Bishop oh wow.
He was my mentor for a fewyears.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Oh, that's very interesting, but what were you
going to say, sam?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Where do you find your business now?
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Yeah, I was just going to say we share an office
space with a builder and it'sinteresting, even though we are
in the same industry I'd almostsay we're, you know, like you
said, industry adjacent Becausewe're doing, you know, we're in
the same industry but we'redoing quite different things and
we are learning.
You know, over the last, Iguess, year that we've been
sharing an office, we've learnedhuge amounts from each other
(33:52):
and been able to apply them intoour, you know, into our
business structure.
So it's again, it's even like,you know, sharing space with
like-minded people.
You know, I think those, thosesort of work share model type
office spaces are a really goodhub for, for bettering your
knowledge, that's for sure.
And a couple of years ago wewere living down in wanaka and I
(34:14):
shared an office space with.
It was a, it was a film, youknow, a film studio.
Uh, there was a marketingoutfit in there, it was an
interior designer, um, andphotographers as well, and you
know, we're all creativeadjacent, I guess.
But you know, everybody came atthings from a different
perspective and I think in thethree months that I spent down
there, I learned more aboutunderstanding what I wanted to
(34:37):
do as a business, or who Iwanted up or what I wanted the
business to be than I have, andyou know, in the three and a
half years that I've existed.
So just having that differentperspective was super helpful.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Yeah, you've just got to find the things that you're
curious about and then go have acoffee with them or move in
with them or have a relationshipwith them in some way, which is
exactly what you're doing, butit's the same way you approach
anything, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (35:00):
If you want, to learn about it you've just got to go
after it.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
It's not going to come to you.
We're doing the same thing.
I'm really interested in whatis an industry association into
the future like into?
Because we're so connectedonline.
What does in-person connectionlook like in the future, and
what kind of digital tools arewe going to need to help
facilitate that more?
So we're about to move into anoffice with a digital technology
(35:28):
agency and a brand agency,because that's where I see that
we're going to learn more andalso they're fun people.
So you've got to go find the funpeople.
And because you know, it'sWellington or New Zealand, Sam,
I know that Ben Nancet is agreat builder and his wife,
Hannah Nancet, is our project'slead at the Institute of
(35:50):
Building, and I know that's oneof the reasons we're talking
today exactly.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yep, yep, I wasn't gonna name drop, but there we go
oh yeah, this is how you giveprops to your people.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Yeah, exactly yeah pam, before you touched on what
are, you know, a good businessmodel versus a bad business
model, and how you you werenever really interested in
architecture or the thearchitecture realm and how they
conducted business.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
I guess what are some examples of a good business I
really steer away from that goodbad paradigm okay, sorry, sorry
, but yeah I did get pissed offwith architecture because it was
so repetitive and it wasn't, Ithink actually just got a
massive job to teach clients andI hope that's what you guys are
(36:40):
all doing.
This is your opportunity tohelp bring the design language
up right.
Yeah, and it's not slap anothercoat of paint stuff that you
see on tv, it's enduring,generational.
Yeah, really re questioning theway we live.
But, ben, I'll let you finishyour question oh no, I mean,
that's pretty much it.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I just wanted to understand, I guess, what a more
successful business model wouldlook like, and maybe that's why
you were interested in prefabin the first place.
I'm not sure more successful.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
There's so much stuff there, right.
I don't know what success meansfor you guys, but when I was
looking at prefabrication what Iwondered about, what I was
super curious about withprefabrication is when it's
architect-led residential.
Why is it not commerciallyenduring?
(37:36):
so there's something in thereabout architects and business
design and business, absolutelyyeah so that for me is the
ultimate curiosity what is thisinterface between design and
business?
How can we make it cool to becommercially successful and do
good work?
And there are some goodexamples out there.
(37:57):
Look at assembly architects inArrowtown.
There's a whole lot of examplesaround the country.
We need to talk about that stuffmore.
It's okay to have a formula ora style or a brand that people
come to you for.
Not everything has to bedesigned from scratch.
(38:18):
You have to have your ownlibrary of reworkable
construction details, whateverit is that creates the
efficiency in your space.
You know a bunch of templatesto know how to do letters and
contracts and dialogue withclients.
Yeah, I just think it's not todemean or take away anything
(38:42):
from architecture, but there's abusiness of architecture that
we don't talk about enough I 100agree.
Speaker 1 (38:48):
My answer to that was to become more of the developer
.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, and that's a classic architect's response is
to try and control everythingalong the way, to design
everything down to the furnitureand the cutlery.
Hello maybe a myriad of wives.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
Um yeah, that's a classic I think it's more the
efficiency side that I'd target,though not so much for much the
control, like how to make theprocess more efficient, and
that's probably through controlright.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
Yes, of course it's connecting up the whole value
chain.
Yeah, and you see that in theStates, at the scale of Warren
Buffett, you know where he's gotthe mortgage enterprises,
everything down to the housesthat come out of the factory.
You know they make 20 houses aday.
I've been into one of thesefactories, like these modular or
(39:41):
mobile home factories, andthey're fascinating.
They're in your kind of Midwest.
The employees are formermilitary.
I've never seen anything likeit in terms of a lack of health
and safety.
they're climbing over each othernailing guns and guns and
they're building these housesfrom the inside out which is
fascinating to watch.
(40:02):
Everything's kind of stapledand sellotaped together and they
are paid something like 12bucks an hour.
But if they make their 20 hourhouses a day in the factory then
they get their kind of 25 bucksan hour.
So they're highly incentivizedand you can.
You can buy a house for ahundred thousand dollars.
(40:23):
So we have not got any kind ofindustry like that here and look
up I'm not saying that on ascale of wrong to right, that
there's a single right but wehave to offer housing at
different scales because in NewZealand at the moment our social
and affordable space is reallydevoid of activity for all kinds
(40:48):
of reasons.
Speaker 4 (40:50):
But, yeah, interesting eh yeah, we tried to
sort of develop something alongthose, along that lines of a
business, you know,off-the-shelf type offering this
year and we've found it.
We developed the designs and weput the packages together and
we have all the informationthere.
But I think what we've kind ofmaybe were a bit naive to a
(41:11):
misunderstanding is you need tomake that jump, you need to have
a partner, or you need to beable to make that jump to it
being a marketable product.
You need to be able to put aprice on it, you need to be able
to like, say, to a client, itwill cost x.
It's a huge jump for us to makeis just, you know, a one-off
architectural firm and I guess,ben, that's where you're talking
about bridging it and havingthat development arm.
(41:33):
But again, it comes back tothose relationships, as if
you're not going to be thedeveloper yourself and control
the whole tree, at least havethat relationship with somebody
that can assist you in makingthat jump as well.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
A hundred percent Collaboration partners, your
coffee network and that's wherearchitects have fallen down
historically is by trying tocontrol everything right through
to the market.
You know other people might bebetter to bring the idea to
market, so it's interesting tosee who you can sidle up with
(42:07):
around branding marketing.
But you're absolutely right,clients want to have knowns and
that's what we realized throughthe whole prefab nz.
Experience is that they want aknown time frame, a known cost,
a known quality.
So it almost doesn't matterwhat it is that you're
(42:28):
describing, as long as you canprovide some level of certainty,
yeah, which is incrediblydifficult in this market where
it's more art than science.
Speaker 4 (42:38):
Yeah, and that certainty changes day to day.
A hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (42:44):
Yeah, Strictly eh, but I guess there's something in
there about creating repeatablesystems or managing
expectations, not over-promising, making sure you can
over-deliver.
Instead, Something about theway we talk to people in
architecture I think needs tobecome a bit more real.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
The language can be a bit wild.
Like you talked about at thestart, communication is huge
Architecturally.
I like to make concepts thatare decipherable to everyone,
something a little bit easier toread it depends what the
intention of the communicationis.
Speaker 3 (43:23):
Are we trying to get clients closer to us as
architect and designprofessionals, or are we trying
to show them how special we are?
And you know language can workin either of those ways
generally.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Yeah, like, what level of involvement do you want
?
Like if people can't understandyou, they can't really engage.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
Yeah, to Sam's point too.
You know every client wants totutu with the design and they've
got their own expectations thatthey're bringing into the room
right.
And even when we talk to peoplelike Lockwood or any of the
kind of original prefabricatedhousing providers, they would
say that there are no twoLockwoods out there the same.
(44:08):
So everybody wants to changesomething.
So where you can get actualrepetition is probably more
around I don't know the shell ordetails and then you've got a
push and pull.
Yeah, so it's more aboutjunctions or general floor areas
, but yeah it's amazing, isn'tit, people?
(44:29):
It's not like cars, whereanyone's wanting personalisation
.
I mean, the other way to do it,of course, is just to do that
thing, like you do with toddlers, which is to give controlled
choices.
Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea, and you can have that in
either red or green, and, yeah,you can definitely have that
cookie.
You could either have ittomorrow or later on.
Speaker 4 (44:53):
Just controlled choices.
I guess clients and toddlerstantrums can be pretty similar
as well, though.
Yeah, yeah, I would add anothergroup to there but I might get
into trouble, so I'll just thatwas mine, oh awesome.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Oh, thanks so much, pam.
We really appreciate you comingon and sharing your vast wisdom
.
That's so cool.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
It's just my own personal perspective.
There's no wisdom.
Don't make it sound so serious.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It sounds wise to me anyway.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
Look, I just encourage everyone to go out and
have lots of coffee or whateverit is you like to drink.
And always ask that lastquestion who are three more
people I can have some morecoffee with.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
Especially in the environment, right now.
Now, yeah, just get out thereand get amongst it.
Thanks, guys, awesome, thankyou.
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