Building Tomorrow: Why High Performance Architecture Is Important

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Prepare to have your notions of sustainability and high-performance architecture transformed as we take you through a deep exploration of how our industry is evolving. We're dissecting the very fabric of what makes our buildings stand the test of time, from the innovative repurposing of building materials to the critical need for buildings that outlive the 50-year mark, we promise an episode that redefines what you thought you knew about sustainable construction.

This conversation is a goldmine for anyone looking to align their building practices with the future – a future where affordability and sustainability are not at odds. We uncover the intricate balance between high-performance homes and financial feasibility, dismantling the myth that sustainable is synonymous with expensive. We share insights into solar energy's cost versus benefits, the impact of Thomas Heatherwick's Humanize campaign, and the pioneering recycling efforts setting Queenstown apart. It's a candid look at the industry's current challenges and the groundbreaking solutions that are paving the way for a more conscious approach to architecture.

We leave you with a call to action. The insights garnered from this discussion reinforce the urgent need for collaboration among architects, developers, and financial institutions. With the clock ticking towards 2025's mandatory reporting of whole-life embodied carbon, we invite you to join the conversation and contribute to a movement that is reshaping our homes, cities, and ultimately, our planet. Tune in for a deep dive into the world of high-performance architecture.

0:12 - High Performance Architecture Discussion
13:41 - Materials Sustainability in Construction Industry
21:08 - Importance of Sustainable Building Practices
30:15 - Energy Systems & Sustainable Building Metrics
42:32 - Affordable, Sustainable Construction Solutions
57:03 - Sustainability Summit Networking and Insights

Key Links:
https://nzgbc.org.nz/
https://passivehouse.com/
https://archipro.co.nz/article/what-is-a-high-performance-home-archipro
https://www.branz.co.nz/sustainable-building/up-spec/
https://www.fletcherliving.co.nz/about-us/sustainability/lowco/
https://www.aretearchitects.co.nz/environments/siptris-the-elle

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Episode Transcript

Sam Brown (00:12):
Welcome back to the Design Principles Podcast.
I'm Sam Brown from ArretArchitects and I'm here today
with Ben Sutherland from BearArchitecture and Gerard
Dombrowski from GerardDombrowski Workshop.
Welcome back, boys, thank you.
This week we've decided thatwe're going to discuss and
tackle the subject ofhigh-performance architecture.

(00:34):
Quite often I've found thatthis is confused or the term
sustainability is bandied aroundin the profession pretty
readily, with not a lot ofunderstanding of what
sustainable means, and I oftenfind that sustainable can be a
little bit of ashort-sightedness in terms of
the building industry.
So I like to use the term.

(00:55):
I like to think of things thatare of that ilk more as
high-performance architecture.
One of the reasons that I wantedto start this conversation
today is that in two weeks time,the New Zealand Green Building
Council will be holding ahousing summit up in Auckland at
the Aotea Centre on the 22nd ofMay Get tickets when they'll be

(01:16):
discussing high performancearchitecture, particularly in
the housing realm, with a strongfocus on medium-density housing
, and it's just a very topicalthing in the market at the
moment and something that Ithink we should definitely
discuss.
So before we crack into things,I just want to start you off

(01:37):
with a little bit of adescription.
This was outlined by Archiproas to what high performance is,
they say there are many design,building, building and material
choices available for making ahome in an energy efficient,
high performer.
They all, however, aim tocontribute to at least one of
four key performancecharacteristics.
So that's worth keeping in mindthroughout the discussion

(01:58):
Insulation, ventilation, solargain and heating.
But personally I find that onlypart of the story and I think
the more that we delve into it,things like embodied carbon,
water usage etc.
Become just as an importantpart of the fabric and framework
of high performancearchitecture.

(02:19):
So to crack things off, bengerard, what's your, what's your
sort of take in this realm andwhat experience have you had in
it?

Gerard Dombroski (02:28):
Quickly is this a performance conversation
or is it a sustainabilityconversation?
Can we run over that link again?

Sam Brown (02:36):
Yeah, so I think the confusion around a lot of the
built environment is people usethe term sustainability a lot to
try and cover a lot of things.
The building industry andconstruction in general is
inherently unsustainable,regardless of how green your
building may be.
So I think sustainabilitypersonally is the wrong term,

(02:57):
which is why I like to use orthink of it as high performance
instead, because regardless ofwhat you're building, it's
unsustainableable.
But if you do it in a highperformance manner that takes
sustainability intoconsideration, it's far more
appropriate and acceptable termto use I'm glad you called it
high performance architecture.

Ben Sutherland (03:18):
Actually I was going to call you out on it.
If you call it sustainabilitynice, it's just far too broad,
you know it's far too broad.

Sam Brown (03:25):
It's far too broad and it's far too misdirected.
I think yeah, particularlynowadays.

Gerard Dombroski (03:33):
So are we saying we're not looking for
sustainability and we're justlooking for performance or
what's because, like the greenbuilding council kind of comes
with the association of savingthe planet, et cetera, et cetera
.
For sure.

Sam Brown (03:47):
So sustainability is definitely an aspect of it and
through all of these discussions, you're considering
sustainability as a base thought, such as embodied carbon,
energy usage material, all ofthat sort of stuff.
So obviously, if you're makingsustainable decisions within
those realms, that's a positive.
But I don't like the termsustainable architecture or

(04:10):
sustainable building becauseinherently, building isn't
sustainable.
You think 40% of our emissionsare either used up in the
construction or maintenance ofbuildings.
So the only way to truly besustainable or to practice truly
sustainable architecture is tonot do any, and then none of us
would have a job live in cavesyeah, so I mean I think

(04:36):
sustainability is definitely.
It's a buzzword, it's definitelya focus, but I think it's just
the wrong term um within thisrealm yeah, it's incredibly
vague yeah, but then it's likethe, because there's all these
metrics that are out and they'reall incredibly misleading.

Gerard Dombroski (04:54):
So, like the, the performance side of things,
are we?
It's like a car analogy, are we?
Are we now now talking about acertain spec of performance?
So now we're talking aboutPorsches and things, or are we
talking about Corollas as well?

Sam Brown (05:12):
I think that's where the discussion can start.
Why not?
And you're right, Gerard.

Gerard Dombroski (05:19):
I'm just trying to bring it into a lens
that everyone can associate.

Sam Brown (05:23):
Yeah, for sure.

Gerard Dombroski (05:25):
Otherwise, only people that know exactly
what high performance buildingare going to know what this
chat's about for sure what?

Sam Brown (05:31):
what I see, well, what high performance is
currently within the market issomething that is performing to
the level that it needs to befor us to meet climate goals,
for us to be living in healthyhomes, to reduce respiratory
illnesses in children, all ofthat sort of stuff.
High performance is the termthat's given to that, because
it's higher performing sorry tosort of use that term again than

(05:54):
standard code or somethingthat's generic.
At the moment, I think a lot ofthat high performance
architecture is seen as to useyour car analogy, you know the
mercedes or the bmw version ofhousing, particularly in housing
for commercial.
It's starting to become alittle bit more adopted across
the board.

(06:15):
But ultimately what the goal isis that those bmws and those
porsches become toyota corollas,to continue that car analogy in
the sense that high performance.
It may be high performance now,but it needs to and should
become just the standard.

Ben Sutherland (06:32):
Well, do you want to kick us off with an
example and tell us and we cantry and break it down as to a
better understanding of whatmakes it high performing, I
guess might be helpful.

Sam Brown (06:45):
Yeah, totally so.
Actually very recently,fletcher Living and it's really
cool to see an enormous playerin the construction market in
New Zealand and Fletcher's sortof championing this change just
completed the first 10, or notthe first, it's the third, I
actually think 10 Homestar homein auckland.

(07:05):
So 10 homestar is basically thepinnacle of high performance
housing that you can achieveunder a new zealand metric, and
we'll get into alternativemetrics for assessing quality a
bit later.
But what that house means is ithas um, like a low embodied
carbon metric to it and I don'thave the numbers in front of me,
but go check it out if you wantto know it in a bit more detail

(07:28):
.
It's airtight.
It requires very little heatingand or cooling in summer and
winter to stay at a mediantemperature of 20 to 21 degrees
internally.
The construction methodologymeans that there's no moisture
issues, condensation et cetera.
The materiality that's used isgenerally all locally sourced.

(07:49):
It's 90% of the waste from theproject was diverted from
landfill, so a lot of it's beenrecycled or reused.
Those are just some of themetrics that are used to
determine what is highperformance at the moment, but
ultimately what the goal is isthat all of those things just
become the norm.

Ben Sutherland (08:07):
Right.
So it achieves in both embodiedin the embodied realm as well
as the operational realm.
So it's about what?
It's as much about theconstruction methodology, how
it's put together, where thematerials come from, what
materials, what variety ofmaterials they're using to lower

(08:31):
that impact Exactly, as well asthe operational costs, which
are your reduction in energyconsumption, your perhaps better
ventilation, whether that bepassive or mechanical yep so
it's just a combination of yeah,the embodied and the

(08:52):
operational to create like a amore superior built structure
yeah, it's a more and it's notnecessarily more superior built
structure.

Sam Brown (09:02):
It's a more superior built structure, it's a more
superior built environment andthere's lots.
I mean, like I didn't want tosay a high-performing piece of
architecture.
I mean we're touching the tipof the iceberg here.
There's so many things thatcontribute to the scale of the
building as one of them, I think.
You know, building a 300 to400-plus square metre home is
inherently unsustainable andit's going to be very difficult

(09:25):
to heat and cool that and thematerial that's going to go into
it is going to be very high,etc.
Etc.
So reducing scale to a moreefficient standard is is a big
one and to kind of come back butto kind of come back to that
car analogy I think you can'tget confused with high
performance being like superhigh spec.

(09:49):
For instance, you know, like afive million dollar mansion on
the hills in wellington orsomething isn't necessarily
going to be high performancebecause it may have very, very
high quality materials, veryhigh quality of finish, a very
high architectural merit, butthe actual performance of that
home could be really poor.
You know my two thousand plusdollar heating bills per month.

(10:13):
You know the material may havebeen shipped.
You know they might have usednon-native timber oh sorry,
non-fsc timber hardwoods for thedecking or something and
shipped the windows all in fromGermany.
All these little thingscontribute to lowering that
level of high performance, notnecessarily high quality.

Gerard Dombroski (10:35):
Yeah, I think the confusion comes in when you
get that mansion that isaccredited to these Homestar or
whatever, because you canultimately pull off a large
building that would tick some ofthe boxes.

Sam Brown (10:52):
You totally can and we're doing it.
Our practice is currently doingit in Wellington.
We've got a client, rob Seymour, who's building a large home on
the hills difficult site inWellington and it's an
incredibly high performance home.
It's, you know, achieved at itslast.
It's a very complex envelopeand it was our aim to sort of

(11:16):
achieve a high home starstandard or close or and use
passive house principles, butwithout really targeting those
actual certifications.
And we're achieving it and it'syou know.
So you can do it at that higherlevel.
What I'm just saying is it'sless common because generally
the focus with projects of thatscale is more on aesthetic and I

(11:41):
don't know, just having nicetravertine, tiles or something,
rather than actually consideringwhat your interior temperature
is all year round without havinginsane power bills.

Gerard Dombroski (11:55):
Love me some travertine, beautiful stone.
So I guess, for anybodyconfused or not overly familiar
with the term high performance,it is kind of the next gen of
the sustainable conversation,isn't it?

Sam Brown (12:10):
yeah, and I think it's the more targeted, more
accurately targeted.
Uh.

Gerard Dombroski (12:16):
Iteration of the sustainability chat yeah, so
we are searching for low carbon, low running costs, low
embodied busy faucets, yeah likelow water usage, low energy
usage and a lot of these housesand commercial properties as
well.

Sam Brown (12:34):
There's the Scion Centre in Roto-Rua.
I think it has a six Green Starrating off off the top of my
head, which is like the highestlevel of certification that you
can get in new zealand.
It's just recently won aninternational award for like an
environmental building award andthat basically is like a net

(12:55):
zero building, so it generatesall its own power, it
recirculates and reticulates andcleans its own water, all those
sort of things you know.
So what we're looking at isbuildings that, where possible,
don't have a negative impact onthe environment in which they
inhabit and also the environmentwhich they draw from.
So, particularly somewhere likeNew Zealand where we have

(13:19):
limited access to power and wewant to maintain this clean
green image, I think it's prettyimportant that we're sort of
striving to create buildingsthat mimic that nationwide
mantra as well so that's likeusing renewable resources like
timber as much as possible.

Ben Sutherland (13:41):
So how, what are some some ways that the
techniques they're using toachieve that?

Sam Brown (13:47):
Lots of companies are kind of taking on different
approaches.
So we actually just had a repfrom Autex come and chat to us
recently, and what they're doingnow is they're taking all of
this.
So Autex are acoustic panelsuppliers for those not in the
know and they're taking a lot oftheir material from off cuts,
from build sites where it's notused, um second life material,

(14:11):
what have you?
And then recycling it andrepurposing it into new products
okay, so they've just recentlyreleased.
I don't have the sample with me,but like a new acoustic panel,
that's purely recycled material.
Um, so what they're looking atis second life, third life,
fourth life material, and a goodexample of that is polystyrene.
If you said polystyrene andsustainability, you wouldn't

(14:33):
necessarily think that the tworun in the same conversation.
But it's a completely inertproduct once it's manufactured
and it has an almost likeinfinite recycle life cycle.
You know.
So, for instance, if you'reusing rigid insulation in your
underfloor expo for, for example, any of those offcuts that you

(14:57):
don't use on site, you can getback to them.
They'll repurpose and put backinto product, and it slowly,
because all products slowlydegrade after each life cycle
use.
But they're continually findingnew methods for recycling and
reusing them.
So those are just a couple ofexamples.

Ben Sutherland (15:14):
We, for instance oh sorry, karen- Just with that
polystyrene, what's thethreshold between, like having
it last a long period of timeversus something that doesn't
cost a lot environmentally tomanufacture in the first place?

Sam Brown (15:31):
I think it's a balance right.
Concrete, for instance, issimilar High embodied carbon in
manufacturing but will lastforever and also can be as
highly recyclable.
So there's no magic wand,there's no golden answer.
I think for those that areinterested it's worth just doing

(15:53):
your research when it comes toproduct specification and
product use because, dependingon what you're wanting to use,
it's good to have a narrativearound why you're using it from
that perspective as well.
Second life materials, likethey're sort of a no-brainer,
particularly stuff where thethere's low, there's low
manufacturing in the secondstage.

(16:14):
So, for instance, we specify alot of reclaimed eucalypt
cladding which comes out ofaustralia.
It's made from beams, railwaysleepers, telephone poles, stuff
that's pulled out of oldconstruction.
All it's done is it's milled,so there's not a lot of cost in
that.
And then it's a.
It's a class 1a timber, so it's40 year out of ground warranty,

(16:35):
untreated, so as a claddingit's like bomb proof and so and
that's a second life material,so there's very little cost goes
into that and it will lastforever.
So that's a good example andall that takes is a little bit
of digging and a little bit ofcuriosity around why you should
use a product rather than justsaying I use it because I use it
interesting.

Ben Sutherland (16:58):
Yeah, I was going to bring this up later on,
but so mbi next year isbringing out carbon counting.
So basically, starting 2025,it's going to be mandatory for
new buildings emphasis on thenew to report on their whole of
life and body carbon.
So basically, I'm not sure howthey're going to do it yet.

(17:20):
Perhaps with the help of brandsor some someone along those
lines, but essentially we'regoing to do it yet, perhaps with
the help of brands or someonealong those lines, but
essentially we're going to haveto start calculating the
embodied carbon within ourmaterials that we're specifying.
That's going to be quiteinteresting because I would
imagine you know, like we weresaying before about polystyrene

(17:42):
having such a high embodiedcarbon, because it takes a lot
to manufacture.
However, I believe the way thatthey're going to get around,
that is, with the calculations,you can actually adjust the
lifespan calculation.
So typically, with the buildingcode at the moment, you can't

(18:05):
go under that 50-year lifespan,but being able to calculate for
a longer lifespan willdefinitely help a lot of those
materials like polystyrene andthat sort of thing.
However, if you're going tocalculate for a longer lifespan,
I think that you also have tobring all the materials up to
that level to be able to.

Sam Brown (18:26):
For sure, and that lifespan's a really interesting
one, right?
So currently building codeallows for, well, requires
buildings to last for a minimumof 50 years, but so often
products are marketed at ordeveloped for that 50 year
minimum lifespan only, soessentially, after 50 years it

(18:48):
all just turns to shit and in alot of cases, you know, for
instance, claddings, a lot ofcladdings, it's only a 15 year
warranty and things like that.
so what ultimately would belovely is if everything brought
itself up.
So, instead of us designing fora home that lasts 50 years
which for us as young architectsis pretty sad to know that by
the end of our lifespan half ourbuildings might have been

(19:09):
demoed or had to be demoed orfallen down we start designing
to 100 years or something alongthose lines.
And if you think about, like ato-code home or a built to-code
home that dreaded term thinkabout what's gone into that.
You've got H1 treated timber.
That's life spans 50 years.
Is it recyclable?

(19:29):
No, you know.
You've got wool insulation ornot wool insulation, sorry,
you've got like pink batinsulation.
Is that recyclable?
How long does it last?
50 years, is it recyclable?
No, you know there's so manymaterials that go into these
sort of standard constructiontype homes that don't have
second life costs, that aren'trecyclable and only last 50
years.
So actually the embodied carbon, although up front might not be

(19:51):
really high for these products,over the course of a lifetime
they could be, which is aninteresting thing to think about
.

Ben Sutherland (19:59):
No, absolutely.
I guess that emphasises theimportance of actually reusing
existing shelves or renovations,how important that's probably
going to be in the futurebecause essentially, if you can
renovate something,significantly less impact than
actually tearing it down, evenif you're recycling as much

(20:21):
material as possible andrebuilding, renovations are
likely to be superior.

Sam Brown (20:29):
That comes back to that statement that I made that
really the only way to be trulysustainable in construction is
to not build, and I mean that'snot a reality for any of us, or
anybody really.
But reuse and recycling is areality and is a huge industry
that I think needs to be tappedinto a little bit more.
And beyond, housing, likerenovating houses, is very

(20:52):
commonplace.
You know classic DIY Kiwimentality around that.
But from a commercialperspective, I think there's so
much more scope for reuse andrecyclability than we're
currently investigating orundertaking.

Gerard Dombroski (21:08):
Have you guys heard of the Humanize campaign
by Thomas Heatherwick?

Sam Brown (21:13):
Yeah, I think have you mentioned it on this pod
before?

Gerard Dombroski (21:16):
Yeah, I've mentioned it before but reuse is
like a massive part of theargument, I guess.
So I think in the UK they havepretty big issue with
demolishing commercial buildings.
Like the lifespans I forget offmemory, but roughly like 20
years or something.
So they'll build a building.

(21:36):
Nobody wants it, so theydemolish it and then rebuild a
whole, nother commercialbuilding.
So his argument is that they'reall just extremely simple glass
clad, tower blocks sort ofthing.
There's no perceived value inthem, so they're simpler to just

(21:56):
demolish and rebuild, whereasmore complex, more beautiful old
buildings want to get reused.
So maybe that's why villas andstuff yeah, there's heritage on
pre-1930s or whatever but peoplewant to reuse villas because
they have a charm and a beautyabout them.

(22:17):
But yeah, it might be trickywhen it comes to renovating a
more standard spec home.

Sam Brown (22:28):
That's actually a really interesting point, Gerard
.
And again, a big thing for uson this podcast is advocating
for architecture.
Right, and that's what you justsaid is a perfect sort of
framework for that.
If you're designing or ifyou've got a home that's the
same as 20 other people in yourneighborhood or a thousand other

(22:50):
people in the country, where'sthe sort of like sense of place,
Where's that like individuality, Where's that ownership and
where's that desire to make thisthing last forever when it's
just it's so run of the mill?
You know, there's something tobe said for quality, not
necessarily exclusivity, butsort of individuality and the
desire to keep that maintainedthroughout history.

(23:13):
And sort of it'd be pretty coolif you know.
If you know, if every, ifeverything was architecturally
designed, if everything wasbespoke, then we're obviously
going to have so much more careand want to hold on to it for so
much longer.

Ben Sutherland (23:26):
Yeah.
They're definitely more likelyto renovate and renew as opposed
to.
I can imagine a lot of thosespec homes are going to be torn
down just to make way for thesame thing, but new basically.
More gentrification, that'sanother.

Gerard Dombroski (23:43):
Sure, a lot of demolition going on.
Demolition is kind of goingbackwards on the high
performance route, sustainableroute, absolutely man demolition
.

Ben Sutherland (23:53):
Someone needs to sort out the recycling in this
country.

Sam Brown (23:55):
It's horrendous the recycling thing is interesting.
I know Auckland had GreenGorilla, I don't know what the
status of that is, after the bigfire recently.
Um, but like wellington forinstance, it's very wood waste
it's very place dependent, butwellington isn't.
But, like across the board, forsite material recycling is not

(24:17):
great.
We've got a site down inqueenstown, uh, which is like,
uh, we trying, it's trying to benet zero waste.
It's nigh on impossible becauseyou're still going to get some
unrecyclable plastics and thingsout of packaging, but we're as
close to it as possible.
We demolished a house and we'rebuilding an old asbestos ridden
house and we're building twonew homes down there.

(24:38):
The entire home, bar theasbestos, has either been reused
or recycled, which is prettycool, and then all of the waste
from site is being diverted torecycling where possible.
So plastics, whether or notsoft plastics, are being um,
there's like an outfit downthere that turn them into fence
posts for for farming.

(25:00):
There's like all the gibraltarboards like jib off, cuts, all
that's crushed down and turnedinto gibraltar which is spread
over ground to help fertilize it, and all these sort of things.
So there's like heaps ofdifferent, different initiatives
.
This is so with the ql how didyou find those people?

Ben Sutherland (25:14):
well, someone needs to compile a list because
I I tried to uh, when you knowmy time at makers, I'd 100 tried
to get rid of a lot of theconstruction offcuts back then.
The best we could do was reducethem and reuse them as much as
possible, but there was no onetaking anything.

Sam Brown (25:35):
Yeah, I mean I can't claim credit for this.
We're working with a contractordown there called Compound, who
you know they're really leadingthe charge in the high
performance and sustainablebuilding realm.
Um, they're doing an amazingjob and that project is a is a
homestar project, and so part ofthat homestar process is we

(25:55):
have a waste management systemon site, so it's all sort of
built into it, but the compoundguys are really the ones that
have found all those avenues forrecycling, um and everything,
and it's actually it's all sortof built into it, but the
compound guys are really theones that have found all those
avenues for recycling andeverything and it's actually
pretty easy because it's alljust done through the QLDC waste
management system.
So, it's council-driven, whichis amazing yeah that's awesome,
but not every council has thatunfortunately.

Ben Sutherland (26:17):
That's awesome to hear.
Another thing I was trying todo back in the day is call
suppliers ahead of time and tryand get them to deliver stuff
that was unpackaged.
No one was keen.
It was just too much liabilityfor them.

Sam Brown (26:32):
Yeah, interesting.

Ben Sutherland (26:32):
Because in case anything turned up dinged or
damaged, then obviously theyhave to cover that expense.
So they weren't keen.
The whole material thing isquite interesting because, going
back to that carbon counting,essentially a lot of it is to
start to create awareness orexposure of how these materials
that we're using in thesebuildings are manufactured and

(26:56):
try and force a lot of thesemanufacturers to improve their
systems and clean up theirprocesses.
So, like you were saying before, with the timber coming from
old milled poles, it just needsto be as clean and efficient as
possible.
And that's what's kind ofhappening.

(27:18):
It's like, basically, you'regetting what is it?
An EPD?
Yeah, basically anenvironmental product
declaration that the suppliersor the manufacturers have to
start to put on their materialsand that's how the carbon is
tracked through the purchasingof the product.

(27:39):
So soon they're going toprobably likely they're going to
cap your carbon footprint ofyour building that you're
designing or whatever, and ifyou're over then, yeah, I'm not
sure what happens.

Sam Brown (27:51):
I guess you have to change your product, or probably
have to buy carbon credits, I'dsay, and that's yeah that's
unfortunately.
That's really the onlymechanism for not punishing but
for sort of holding peopleaccountable at the moment is the
purchase of carbon credits.

Ben Sutherland (28:09):
Well, they could just not let you do it and you
could have to supply somethingelse.
It could be as simple as that.

Sam Brown (28:15):
Yeah, the problem with that being is that New
Zealand small product market.
It would make things verydifficult and we're pro
development.
At the moment there's so muchpositive development that needs
to happen.

Ben Sutherland (28:31):
We don't want to hand break it all although I
think it would definitely forcethe hand on some of those bigger
manufacturers to supply cleaner, greener products totally but
even in saying that you, like,you mentioned the EPDs, the
Environmental ProductDeclarations.

Sam Brown (28:51):
I was aware of them a couple of years ago and every
time a product rep would comeand talk to us I'd be like, do
you have an EPD?
And to begin with they werelike I'll need to check when I
get back to the office typeresponse which we know just as a
I have no idea, no, but yeah,you know.
I'm never going to say thattype.
You know, you know what's notgoing to like.
But now you ask them andthey're like yep, here it is

(29:12):
which is amazing.

Ben Sutherland (29:13):
Who's checking those EPDs, though?
But?

Sam Brown (29:16):
even that change, even that change in the last 18
months.
Two years what that means is ahuge shift in understanding and
a huge shift in accountability,which is just the start, really,
and that's that goes beyond theproduct, that needs to move
into the entire builtenvironment now, and I think
that's where things are startingto shift as people are becoming

(29:37):
a lot more aware of whatthey're putting into their
buildings and how theirbuildings are performing, rather
than just what their buildingslook like.

Ben Sutherland (29:46):
Yeah, definitely yeah, because for a long time
there it was really focused onthe operational carbon counting
which is the everyday day-to-dayrunning of the building,
heating and whatnot.
So it's so good to see a lotmore emphasis being put on the
embodied carbon counting, whichI think is like significantly

(30:08):
important.
It's, you know, hugelyimportant, potentially arguably
even more important, becausethis government's no sorry.

Sam Brown (30:15):
This country's energy systems has like a high
percentage of clean energyanyway we're like 90, 92 maybe
clean energy, so like, from anew zealand perspective it's a.
It's a kind of a differentdiscussion than it is overseas,
because so much of it, and thisis the same thing when it comes
to like, oh, should I put solaron my roof?

(30:37):
Kind of yes, kind of vibe butfor so long the argument's been
like well, what's the point?
because our energy is cleanregardless, but power is
expensive.
And I'm talking to people downin Queenstown who have passive
homes or like Homestar ratedhomes and one of the people that

(30:58):
I've been talking to theyhaven't paid for power in the
last two years and this isliving in Queenstown.

Ben Sutherland (31:08):
They're always in credit through having solar
panels and a high performancehome.

Sam Brown (31:11):
Whereas I've talked to, so they've got sorry,
they've got solar panels ontheir house solar panels on
their roof, so they're creating,generating enough power to
power their home, heat theirhome, do everything for their
home for the entire year.
So this is through, like thedepths of winter and the heats
of summer, versus other peoplethat I've talked to down there
that have large homes, beautifullarge homes overlooking the
lake, lots of glass, expensive,you know, amazing architecture,

(31:33):
but their power bills are likefour grand a month yeah, but
obviously there's an upfrontcost associated with the solar.

Gerard Dombroski (31:39):
There's a four grand power bill for a lot of
people.

Sam Brown (31:45):
You'd be surprised, but even like a $600 I run some
pretty gnarly power suckingtools in my workshop, but even
like a $600 power bill I'd saywould be relatively common
throughout New Zealand monthly.

Gerard Dombroski (32:01):
The conversation becomes payback
when you're weighing up whetheryou're going to well, yeah, yeah
some batteries, because likelet's, let's be frank, there
it's not cheap.
Like to power your house andthen batteries.
There's a huge cost.

Sam Brown (32:17):
Oh, totally and I'm not.
I'm not saying that solar isthe golden ticket by all means I
mean, I've been a solar skepticfor years because for so long
the efficiencies of panels haveonly been about seven years.
A lot of the materials arenon-recyclable.
We haven't had good storingcapacity until Tesla came and
built Powerwalls which arepretty mint, but they are

(32:39):
expensive.
They're like $20,000, $15,000to $20,000.
They are expensive.
They're like 20 grand 15 to 20grand, but I think what's also
often is but this kind of comesback to this whole overarching
holistic view on highperformance is you can't look at
these things in isolation.
You can't look at just havingsolar as a solution.
You can't look at just havinglow embodied carbon products as

(32:59):
a solution.
You need to combine those twothings with things like low
energy use sorry, low waterusage and like airtight homes
and things like that, so you'renot leaking out a whole bunch of
heat and then having to use ashit ton of solar energy to
repower it.
You know what I mean.

Ben Sutherland (33:18):
So it's Just touching on that solar just
before we move away.
One last thing I have to sayabout it In terms of embodied
carbon.
Did you know that aluminium hasone of the highest levels of
embodied carbon, and obviouslynot to mention the lithium and
silicon and that sort of thing,just because of the mining

(33:40):
involved in acquiring theproduct in the first place?
So I guess that's like anotherfactor to consider when looking
into solar.
And not only that.
Like you said before, you can'trecycle them, so their lifespan
is generally only 20 or soyears, so then you have to
purchase a new one.

(34:00):
So not quite there yet.

Sam Brown (34:03):
My opinion solar is a tricky one and I think that's
where it comes back to that andthis kind of segues into
something that I want to discussnext.
But, like solar, it kind ofsegues back to that
sustainability buzzword.
You know people like I want myhouse to be more sustainable.
I put solar panels on the roof.
Well, it's not.
It's not quite how it works,and what I want to lead that

(34:26):
into is like okay, we've talkedabout high performance in a lot
of these different aspects.
Well, what is the metrics orwhat are the methods that we can
use to assess whether somethingis high performance?
And internationally, there'spassive house.
I'm sure a lot of listeners andyou guys have probably heard of
passive house.
Lots of people may notunderstand what that means, but

(34:47):
it's a colloquial term, right?
Everybody knows that passivehouse means it performs really
well thermally.

Ben Sutherland (34:53):
Question, just jumping in there Passive house.
Why is it called passive housewhen it's literally the opposite
of passively designed houses?

Sam Brown (35:04):
That's a really good question.

Ben Sutherland (35:06):
I'm like are we pro passively designed houses or
are we pro mechanicalventilation?

Sam Brown (35:12):
Well, we're definitely pro mechanical
ventilation, are we yeah?

Ben Sutherland (35:17):
Oh man, I'm so pro passively designed houses.

Gerard Dombroski (35:21):
I'm going to go passive.
Well, passive works if you havea passive environment designed
houses, that well, I'm going topassive.

Sam Brown (35:24):
well, it's like passive passive works if you
have a passive environment andnew zealand is anything but a
passive environment, you know,but interestingly, like we're a
lot more mellow in terms of upsand downs than a lot of the
world true, but a lot of likethose places are consistent,
like try telling me Wellington'sconsistent.

Ben Sutherland (35:46):
That's the exception to the rule, though,
surely?

Sam Brown (35:48):
Yeah, that's true.

Ben Sutherland (35:50):
Auckland's pretty consistent.
It just rains randomly everynow and then, or every day.

Sam Brown (35:57):
But cycling back to those metrics.
So obviously this Passive House, what Passive House looks at,
is the energy use and reallyfocusing on the thermal
performance of the home.
But it's really that one kindof critical key aspect which I
think loses a little bit ofsight around.
Things like ben, you've talkedabout embodied carbon, water
usage and things.
So then the new zealand greenbuilding council has developed

(36:19):
this new zealand centric modelcalled HomeStar, which is
targeted at housing, and thenGreenStar, which is targeted at
commercial buildings and thatlooks at the performance of
buildings more holistically.
So it's taking intoconsideration all of those
passive house things thermalperformance, energy performance
but also looking at materiality,embodied carbon, water usage

(36:44):
scale, proximity to amenities,all those sort of things.

Ben Sutherland (36:50):
So is Green Star and Homestar.
The same thing, just one'scommercial, one's residential.

Sam Brown (36:56):
Like the metrics aren't exactly the same.
They're looking at the same.
Like they're looking at highperformance within the building
sector, but like the metricsthat they're analysing the same.
Like they're looking at highperformance within the building
sector, but like the metricsthat they're analyzing are quite
different how do we select one,or do we just have to?

Ben Sutherland (37:11):
well, if you're doing a, housing project.

Sam Brown (37:13):
Regardless of the scale, homestar will be
applicable.
If you're doing a commercialproject, then it's a green star.
Okay, that green staraccreditation is what you'd be
looking for, and then also I wasgonna say what is an eco home?
Then uh, I think it's notnecessarily like a, like a, a

(37:35):
certifiable metric.
I think it's more just like aconcept, more than anything else
, like what these are.

Ben Sutherland (37:41):
These are things it's a sustainable house.
It's a sustainable house.

Sam Brown (37:44):
Yeah, but what these?
The things that these are?
These are things.
It's a sustainable house?
It's a sustainable house?
Yeah, but what these?
The things that I'm talkingabout are things that actually
have analysis, certification,assessment are recognised
internationally and nationally,rather than just like a sort of
a bit more of a well-directedbut just a sort of a bit of you
know, a directed buzz term.

(38:04):
And then there's also neighborsin z, which focuses on the
energy efficiency of commercialbuildings, which is sort of like
that passive house equivalentfor buildings, but commercial
buildings.
And then for anybody, anyhomeowner, there's home fit
assessments.
So there's home fit assessorsout there and they kind of take
a look at existing buildingstock and new and tell you

(38:27):
whether it is sort of suitableenough to live in.
And if you're a renter, you'veprobably heard of it, because
landlords were required to bringit up to a certain standard and
everything like that.
So there's a lot of things thatare leading in that direction,
but I think what the biggestproblem at the moment is a lack
of understanding around whatthese things mean and,

(38:49):
interestingly, one of the thingsthat I've seen, or an
initiative concept that I'veseen, that I think would be the
best way of bringing this intothe public eye and giving people
a very quick and easy tounderstand method of rating
buildings as a star rating.
So not dissimilar to your fridgehaving, you know, a three and a

(39:10):
half or a four star energyrating or your washing machine
having a two and a half, threestar water rating or something.
Any house that went to marketfor sale would have a star
rating against it.
And it may be, you know, it maybe a brand new, high
performance, um homestarregistered home and it's got

(39:31):
like a homestar rating of sevenor eight.
Or it may be a off the plansgroup home, um new build, but it
has a star rating of three.
Or it may be a beautiful oldcharacter villa in mount vic it
has a star rating of three.
Or it may be a beautiful oldcharacter villa in mount vic it
has a star rating of one.
You know.

Ben Sutherland (39:49):
So is this something that exists or are you
just making?
Is this something you're justmaking up as we go along?

Sam Brown (39:54):
it's not something that exists.
It's not something, but it'salso not something I'm making up
, so it's something that's beenfloated out there and yeah, it's
a great idea the new zealandgreen building council talked
about it at the housing summit acouple of years ago and then
they've started this campaigncalled the homes that we deserve
campaign.
Go check it out online and signup if you're interested in

(40:14):
supporting it, but essentiallyit's that idea.
So you as a buyer, or you as ahomeowner, or you as a business
owner, commercial property owneryou have a very quick and easy
metric to understand what thequality of your building is and
it's not like this isn't amatter of trying to degrade
certain types of houses, butit's an easy way of telling the
general public.

(40:34):
Okay, the house that you'rebuying may look mint, but it
performs like a piece of crap.
It's like buying those reallycool sunglasses off timo, but
then you go outside and they'renot polarized and you burn your
eyes.

Ben Sutherland (40:49):
Yeah, so I this all sounds awesome, but I have
to ask and maybe you can give usan example based on your
experience how much added costdoes all of this add to your
construction?
Let's assume a standard kind ofresidential three-bedroom house

(41:09):
sort of thing.
Is it a cost that's kind ofworth doing or is it just still
just so far out there that it'sa struggle to get over the line?

Sam Brown (41:21):
Yeah, it's a good question and it's a question
that we in the high-performancearchitecture realm and building
and construction developmentrealm do struggle with, because
it is more costly upfront tobuild these homes at the moment,
and a lot of the reasons forthat is you're using materials
and detailing methods andconstruction methodologies that

(41:45):
are not as common in the market,for example, sips, for example
recessed windows, for exampleventilation, air barriers and
things like that.
So mechanically ventilationwith heat recovery.
These are systems that are sortof becoming more understood and

(42:06):
used in new zealand but aredefinitely still in their
infancy.
But as these pick up, as themomentum shifts, I think that
the cost will obviously comedown and as contractors in
particular become more familiarwith building in this style,
they'll become more confidentbecause at the moment they're
just putting massive overheadson constructing anything of a

(42:28):
high-performance nature becausethey don't really know what
they're doing yet.

Ben Sutherland (42:31):
But that's changing Too much uncertainty.

Sam Brown (42:32):
Yeah, and then also, you know a lot of the materials
that we're talking about, theselow embodied carbon materials.
They do come at a premium in alot of instances because again,
again, it's a shifting landscapein the material supply market.
So it is more expensive.
But you know we've talked aboutwhole life cycle costs that

(42:52):
will be realized over thelifetime of a building.
The problem is like what's thelikelihood of people buying or
building a home, you know, andactually living in it for 50 to
60 years?
It's pretty low, um, so it is ahard sell.

Gerard Dombroski (43:07):
But I think it is the more that people push
this change and the more thatthis change is realized to be a
necessity, then these costs willcome down hopefully yeah, yeah,
I think whenever you addcomplexity you obviously add
cost and the kind of worryingtrend is that, like building

(43:30):
costs getting a little bit outof control and a whole section
of the population that aprevious generation would have
been able to buy a house orsomething.
So we're slowly locking a lot ofthe world out of owning a home,
yeah, and that's, and withrising costs, which is kind of
worrying with legislating thissort of stuff and making

(43:54):
everyone build a house that'sultimately going to cost them a
reasonable chunk more and thenyou're adding in solar panels
and mechanical, I think there'sa argument to be made for low
performance housing and if yougo back to like actually
allowing people to have prettybasic buildings buildings are

(44:17):
currently very basic, let's befair.
But like do we want people tobe fair?
But like do we want people tobe able to own a home?

Sam Brown (44:28):
Or like yeah, it's pretty, do you understand?
Like, see where I'm coming from?
Oh, definitely, Gerard.
And to respond to that, that'sexactly a problem that we've
identified and trying to solveourselves within our
architecture practice is that werealise that this is it's a new
style of construction, but it'sa necessary style of

(44:52):
construction.
But the risk is, like you'veidentified, that it's
unattainable for a lot of people.
So we've tried to develop like avery simple off-the-shelf
housing product.
We've got six typologies thatmeet, called sip.
Trust that.
So the sip homes.
But they they meet all of thesehigh performance standards but,

(45:13):
like, at a far more accessibleprice point.
And a lot of compromises therecome into like scale.
So instead of that like gjgardener home that's going to
cost you 500K, being 190 squaremeters or whatever, with a
double garage, you have ahigh-performance home that costs
the same amount, that's 110square meters, same amount of
bedrooms, same amount of storagespace, same size kitchen and

(45:37):
everything.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
But the space is just used farmore efficiently.
So it's just kind of betterdesign but being able to bring
it in at a more affordable pricepoint, and then also seeing
Fletcher Living do this 10-starhome, which, by all intents and
purposes looks pretty achievable.
I'd say anybody is reallypromising and hopefully somebody

(46:00):
with that power in the marketcan continue to lead the change
and be able to provide thislevel of quality to that sort of
more affordable housing marketarea.
And in that same breath sorry,Ben, just quickly to finish,
Kainga Ora, for instance, youknow, who are providing social
housing throughout the country.

(46:21):
They are early adopters of theHomestar program and all of
their projects have to achieve aHomestar 6 rating.

Ben Sutherland (46:28):
Yeah.

Sam Brown (46:29):
So they're leading the charge there as well, which
is great.

Ben Sutherland (46:32):
I was just going to say and don't some banks
subsidise, to a certain extent,any of that?

Sam Brown (46:39):
Yeah, so ASB, anz and kiwi bank all provide
sustainability loans um for highperformance homes or
sustainability measures.
My experience with the bank, thebanks around this, is it's a
little bit misguided.
They they haven't quiteunderstood like the whole home

(47:02):
mortgage rate thing, like interms of like the whole home
being a sustainable measure.
A lot of these loans aretargeted at like double glazing
your house or putting solarpanels on or rainwater tanks or
something like that.
So like individual sort of orputting in like ev charges for
cars or something along thoselines, that they haven't quite
jumped on board the entireproject scale concept yet.

(47:25):
But hopefully they start tounderstand that a little bit
more.
I know after the housing summiton the 23rd of may there's a
banking over breakfast seminar,a bit with the banks about, um,
sustainable loans.
So if that tickles anybody'sfancy, get along to that are the
banks shouting breakfast?

(47:45):
I think that's the plan, yeahcount me in, yeah, so there's
definitely but what I guess whatwould lead into being there is,
there are mechanisms for forcheaper money for sustainable
measures, which is great to seeyeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Sutherland (48:03):
One thing I was going to mention before which is
is kind of equally as relevanthere is in the commercial realm.
It's kind of similar.
It becomes more about like acombination of materials,
because obviously you can'texactly specify timber, columns

(48:25):
and beams and everything for anentire building.
Well, you can, but some of yourspans and your columns and
costs, uh, increasesignificantly.

Sam Brown (48:34):
So I guess the best you can do is find the best
material for the best area andmaximize it to its limits and I
think that's exactly right and Ithink that's the answer for all
of this discussion really islike there's a there's and
gerard again to your sort ofyou're not low perform.

(48:56):
Let's not call it lowperformance because it sounds
degrading, but, like you know,to code type standard your
standard.
Yes, to standard your standardtype construction, be that
commercial or residential.
You know there's a place forthat, and then there's a place
for high performance.
But that's why I kind of likethat star rating system for want

(49:16):
of a better term is that itlets you know what you're buying
.
You know what I mean, because Ithink so often homeowners,
business owners, building ownersdon't really understand what
they have as an asset andwhether it's good or whether
it's bad, and I think that is ashortcoming of the industry so
just to clarify as well, thatstar rating, it's basically the

(49:39):
same setup as those health starratings that we get on food
packaging now, isn't it?

Ben Sutherland (49:43):
yeah, exactly how good are they?
I swear, I use those every daywell, who was I talking to?

Sam Brown (49:49):
oh, eli, um, from first light, said that I think
it was.
Eli said that his son won't eatbutter now because it has a
one-star rating on it.

Ben Sutherland (49:57):
The awareness is amazing, isn't it?

Sam Brown (49:59):
I mean his son's, like six or seven.
I'm definitely pro-butter, butyou're right it creates
industry-wide awareness, whichis super important.

Ben Sutherland (50:13):
Yeah, but yeah and again from creates
industry-wide awareness, whichis super important.

Sam Brown (50:15):
Yeah, but yeah, and again, from the material point
of view, like I think there'salways going to be argument for
different types of material,probably not much of an argument
for steel, you know.
Well, strength it's strength,for sure, but like, but in terms
of the yeah span.
I mean, the quantities that youneed need are a lot less, but

(50:36):
that's and it's cost.

Ben Sutherland (50:37):
Unfortunately, the cost is significant.
Significantly less as well.

Sam Brown (50:41):
So here you go.
I mean this is the argument.

Ben Sutherland (50:43):
It's a, it's a balancing act it's it's a.

Sam Brown (50:46):
It's a.
It's a tough balancing argumentfor concrete yeah.
So with the argument forconcrete, I mean it lasts
forever and it's recyclable, anddo you know?

Ben Sutherland (50:57):
that there is, they're working on.
I'm not sure if it's allconcrete or just a new type of
concrete, but there's like aconcrete that can absorb carbon
dioxide over its lifespan.
It's a process.
It's not called sequesteringwhatever.
It is not called sequesteringwhatever.

Sam Brown (51:15):
It is carbon sequestering, like yeah, like uh
, timber, it's calledcarbonation right, but even like
firth, you know, all of theirconcrete now is low embodied
carbon concrete.
So they're using like differentcementious, so you know, uh
mixes like fly ash and things,things like that, to bring down
that embodied carbon cost.

(51:35):
So people in that realm arestill striving for as best as
they possibly can to reducethose numbers, which is great to
see.

Ben Sutherland (51:43):
Yeah, definitely , and it'll only get better with
a bit of forced innovation.

Sam Brown (51:49):
It is Forced.
Innovation and adoption by theindustry is what's going to make
this change.
And you know, the dream is thatwe're having the same
discussion in two to threeyears' time and this discussion
is no longer high performance,it's standard, you know.

Ben Sutherland (52:07):
Yeah.
I wish someone out there wouldbuild a carbon counting
attachment or add-on to Revit.
Probably already exists, butI'm probably sure it's a bit
clunky.

Sam Brown (52:19):
Yeah, I mean there's tools out there, but it's still
early days.

Ben Sutherland (52:24):
Yeah, I reckon it'll be great, though it can't
be that hard to do.

Sam Brown (52:28):
Nah, someone probably would have done it.

Gerard Dombroski (52:33):
As the companies get their data
together, it'll be easier tolike.
They all have their details oneBoss or something.
Maybe they'll rev it, pluginsor come with a.

Ben Sutherland (52:46):
Yeah, well, that data thing is actually quite
interesting.
Because I think, from myunderstanding, 2025, when they
create this mandatory carboncalculating mandate or whatever
you want to call it, I believethat's only going to.
It'll go for a year and they'llbasically just collect all the
industry data, figure out wherethings are actually meant to be,

(53:08):
and then 2026, they'llbasically redo the whole thing
based on that data Rightinteresting.
Yeah, and then 2026, they'llbasically redo the whole thing
based on that data RightInteresting?
Yeah, they really haven't.
I don't know.
It's early days, such earlydays in the process.

Sam Brown (53:24):
It is, and you know we were early adopters in this
realm, mainly because it wasjust like something that I
really wanted to pursue and so,you know, pretty knowledgeable.
But it's nice to have theopportunity to sort of start to
continue to educate in thisrealm and it's cool to see, you
know, so many people picking itup and running with it.

(53:45):
You know I've mentioned RobSeymour.
He's a friend of all of oursactually.
You know, at the commencementof his project I sort of
mentioned a lot of these highperformance concepts and details
and construction methods to himand he didn't offhandedly
discount them but like he wassort of like oh no, you know, do

(54:05):
it this, you know, the same oldway.
And then, as we kind of workedthrough the process and he
started to learn himself andstarted to educate himself on
the area, he started, started tochampion it himself and now has
totally run with it and I'd saythat it's completely changed
his view on construction, whichis amazing to see, you know, and
I can say likewise for otherbuilders that we've worked with,

(54:27):
where they've worked on ahigh-performance home that we've
done, and it's completelychanged their view on the
construction industry and it'ssomething that they're now
championing in their ownbusiness and practice, which is
cool to see.
And you know, the only hope isthat you can continue to sort of
have these moments of influencethat continue to sort of grow
that industry in that way.

Ben Sutherland (54:49):
It would be awesome if the compliance sorry,
the Homestar assessment wouldcome down in price, because it
costs like what is it like twoor two and a half grand or
something to do it's so it'squite expensive come talk to me.

Sam Brown (55:03):
I'm a homestar assessor, I'm gonna hook you up.
Oh, you're nice I think there's.

Gerard Dombroski (55:10):
There's like a .
I like like Rob's non-passive,passive house approach.
Like you aim for these things,you just incorporate the good
bits.
But then you like, is thereactually a benefit in having a
star?
Like, is that social credit?

Sam Brown (55:25):
Yeah, and you're right, gerard, and that's
interesting.
I mean, at the moment, thereisn't really any purpose in
having those certifications oranything other than either like
self-satisfaction or social cred, as you said.

Ben Sutherland (55:41):
You can potentially get resale
Potentially resale.

Sam Brown (55:44):
but I know, for instance, ralph McLean's trying
to sell one of his or a projectfor his is trying to sell in
Dunedin a passive House home.
It is really cool.
I went and visited it just fora nosy at an open home a couple
of weeks ago.
But it's not getting a lot ofinterest and you know you find
Too expensive.

(56:04):
Well, that's it, and you know,you kind of, I guess, as a
seller, you'd hope that thatPassive House stamp sort of
justifies that higher value, butit's not necessarily being
recognized.
But, like we talked about, ifit becomes that sort of you know
, the star rating becomesuniversal, then I think it would
apply a lot more.
But like you said, Gerard,there is so much merit in

(56:30):
designing with passive houseprinciples in mind or designing
with home star principles inmind and using that, detailing
and using their or having anunderstanding of their metrics.
Not necessarily getting thecertification, although I do
encourage people to get homestarcertification, but at least
that's how you can but, do itoff-grid but you know
like, at least, if, at least, ifpeople are, you know, designing

(56:53):
, or at least people designingthose things in mind, that
baseline is lifting, you know,across the board, which is
awesome.

Ben Sutherland (57:01):
And so when did you say the conference?

Sam Brown (57:03):
was 22nd of May in Auckland, our TS Centre, New
Zealand Green.

Ben Sutherland (57:08):
Building.

Sam Brown (57:08):
Council Housing Summit.

Ben Sutherland (57:11):
Are directed more towards the high
densification.

Sam Brown (57:16):
Yeah, I mean from my experience and being there
before a lot of the conversation, because the biggest players
they are generally developersand so a lot of the focus is at
that higher scale or largerscale development stuff, be that
small townships, be that mediumdensity dwellings, um that sort
of thing.
But then there's also scope forfor those of us that work in
the more bespoke individualhousing sector I'll be

(57:38):
presenting on a few of ourhouses that we've done and as
ourselves as early adopters ofthe version 5 homestar program.
So there's definitely scope foreverybody there and there's a.
You know there's a lot ofindustry and material.
You know supply leaders andstuff.
There as well, there's a goodchance to network with

(57:59):
similar-minded people in thehigh-performance realm.

Ben Sutherland (58:02):
Yeah, see what everyone else is doing.
Yeah, Awesome.
Oh well, shall we wrap it upthere.

Sam Brown (58:08):
Sounds good.

Ben Sutherland (58:10):
I hope everyone's enjoyed the
discussion on sustainability andlearned at least one thing
hopefully a few things.
Any further questions orcomments?
Feel free to DM us on Instagramand don't forget to rate and
subscribe, Thanks again to ConorDolman for the visual art and

(58:32):
Jacob Marshall for the sound.
Legends Conor Dolman for thevisual art and Jacob Marshall
for the sound Legion Peace.