July 23, 2025 • 55 mins
The seemingly effortless elegance of minimalist architecture masks the extraordinary attention to detail required to achieve it. Tom Seear-Budd and James Ross, founders of Wellington-based Seear-Budd Ross Architects, pull back the curtain on this process, revealing the meticulous thought behind their refined residential designs.
Having established their practice nearly six years ago after departing larger commercial firms, the pair sought greater autonomy and the opportunity to create more intentional, considered work. What began with barely a month's worth of projects ahead has evolved into a respected studio known for exceptionally clean architectural expressions. Their journey reveals the challenges and rewards of maintaining design integrity while building a sustainable practice.
At the heart of their approach lies an almost obsessive consideration of proportion, light, and spatial choreography. Tom and James share fascinating insights into their design process – from spending days on site imagining how residents might move through spaces, to debating whether rooms can "handle" 300mm versus 250mm floorboards. In one project, they aligned every element in a hair salon to the 105mm floor tile module; in another, they meticulously planned how to choreograph a visitor's experience of views, revealing them gradually rather than all at once.
The conversation explores how their thoughtful approach to openings (preferring fixed glazing with minimal frames over complex systems), material selection (favouring harmony over contrast), and spatial division (intuitive separation of public and private realms) creates buildings of quiet confidence. They emphasise that while their work has gravitated toward higher-end residential projects, their core design principles can be applied at any scale or budget – proving that good architecture isn't necessarily about expensive materials, but thoughtful application of universal principles.
For those interested in establishing their own architecture practice, Tom and James offer valuable insights from their journey – from the importance of brand integrity and mentorship to their strategic use of high-quality renders for communication and marketing. Their story demonstrates that building a distinctive architectural voice requires not just design talent, but persistence, strategic thinking, and occasional financial sacrifice in service of long-term vision.
Want to see more examples of architecture that demonstrates how simplicity often demands the greatest precision? Follow the Design Principles podcast for conversations with leading practitioners who are shaping our built environment through thoughtful, intentional design.
Episode cover image provided by Seear-Budd Ross.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just like our guests say, this beer is all class.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
Today, we're lucky enough to bejoined by two exceptionally
talented architects doingincredible work across New
Zealand Tom Seabud and JamesRoss, founders of Seabud Ross.
We explore building a business,designing architecture,
crafting furniture andphotography, and how Tom and
(00:39):
James bring the same intentional, design-led approach to all of
these disciplines, creating workthat feels both refined and
impactful.
I especially enjoyed hearingtheir discussion around
conducting a site investigationand planning spatial layouts
anyway.
So, yeah, welcome to the pod.
I don't know, have you guysever, uh, done a podcast of of
(01:24):
any description before?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
We have.
We did one what felt like 30seconds into starting the
business, which was reallyinteresting.
That was for was that for thedesign files?
I don't know for Habitusactually.
But yeah, we were very freshand that was just before COVID,
so it was kind of.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Yeah, that's a while ago.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah Well, you guys have come a long way.
I suspect you've got a lot moreto talk about this time around.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Definitely I've listened to lots of podcasts as
well.
Yeah, quite a few goodarchitecture ones out there.
What's your go-to?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, as well as the Design Principles pod Design
Principles obviously is thenumber one.
I thought you'd say that.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Probably my favorite would be the Dave.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Sharp Video Sharp, he's clinical eh.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, he's good.
We come and go.
We listen to a little bit ofBusiness Architecture UK as well
.
Yep, same.
Yeah, it's kind of like youhave to take a little bit of the
almost interpret the advice forour own context because, um,
yeah, quite different over there, whereas at least australia is
(02:35):
a lot more relevant, I guess forus isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
and it's cool listening to all the firms.
He does a good job.
I don't know how, but he really, like you know, he interviews
some amazing architects anddesigners.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
So, uh, kudos to him for that yeah, it's awesome how
he's branched into the uk withhis uk series been enjoying that
lately.
Yeah, I found after a while somehave like really good
information in there, but yourun sort of crowds around things
that are have impacted themover time, but after you'd
listen to quite a few you canstart to get quite a balanced
(03:09):
idea around all these sort ofmarketing ideas and things.
So yeah, yeah, it's a superhelpful thing to have that
little resource in thebackground, because marketing
for architecture is a strangetopic.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
I think marketing for architects is quite interesting
because there's almost likesome organic ways that just by
doing your work you create yourown marketing, which is probably
like the default for a lot ofarchitects.
So it's like publication andawards, yeah, and I guess
Instagram as well generates abit of attention.
But I think that's quite aninteresting question.
(03:45):
It's like whether there's otherthings you do beyond those kind
of traditional like methods, Iguess.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
What have you found, you guys, doing, or strategies
you've had a crack at, or do wedo?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
we want to just jump in with a quick overview before
we dive straight into deepmarketing strategies.
Now we'd love to hear a bitmore about you know, Sebad Ross
and who you guys are, and, yeah,goals and ambitions.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, so we, james and I, started the practice
almost six years ago and we bothcame from a commercial
architecture background and soboth going for a relatively
large practice, and I wanted tocraft our own journey and, yeah,
do some work.
That was kind of a bit morepeed back, refined, kind of have
(04:32):
a bit more autonomy as well inour own careers, and it was
basically it's basically beenthe two of us the whole time.
We've recently taken on anotherstaff member, nina, who has
come over from the uk, so shebrings, you know, a whole lot of
knowledge from europe, which isreally good and, yeah, mainly
working on residential projectsaround the country and a little
(04:52):
bit of commercial, but, yeah,probably 80, 80 resi one of
houses quite high end thoughwould I would I mean, I would
say has it all been high end,Like we've done everything from
bathroom renos.
Like we went through a periodwhere we're kind of doing the
(05:13):
building drawings for someinterior designers that couldn't
file them.
So we're doing a bathroom reno,but yeah now sort of like
houses that are up, definitelyup there, and um kind of scale
and is it?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
is that mainly because you know the stuff that
you guys want to be designing,which is quite minimal, clean,
super clean, probably like thecleanest architecture, I would
say, in the residential realm?
For sure is it so?
Is it because it because thestuff that you guys want to be
designing kind of leads youtowards that higher end realm,
(05:50):
or do you try and just bringthat into any work you do?
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I think it was Claire Cousins.
I heard her talk about in aninterview that she quite likes
doing small scale projectsbecause they have a fast
turnaround and they are almostlike a good way to explore ideas
and they're quite satisfyingjust because they're that quick
and it might take a year or twoyears to go from start to finish
.
So I guess an example would belike Terrier Fit Out.
(06:19):
So we definitely don't say noto small projects, but probably
what we find like the trend isis that, um, people that want to
work with us do have like quitebig projects, um, and so if
someone has a small alteration,they probably, they probably in
general they don't want to spendmuch of their allocated budget
(06:41):
on design fees would be just ourexperience.
But if someone did want tospend much of their allocated
budget on design fees would bejust our experience.
But if someone did want to pay,basically us for our time to
work on a small project woulddefinitely be interested in it.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
But it does probably mean, you know, the percentage
fees are quite high in thecontext of their budget it's
also like throughout, like we'velearned to well, we've kind of
learned that designing simple,what feels like a simple
building, is actually quiteexpensive.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And hard to achieve.
I can imagine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Like, if you want to, you know, hide all your
flashings and do multiple layersof cleaning and all that sort
of stuff, like that's a it's aexpensive way to build so that
naturally kind of shuts you offfrom an end of the market.
You know, like we're working ona renovation in kandala at the
(07:37):
moment which is like it's it'skind of expensive for for what
it is, but it's not um, liketheir overall project cost isn't
like some of the new houses,but it has the same ideas as the
new houses in terms of, youknow, light and proportion and
materiality, flow andchoreography.
We kind of apply the same, thesame principles to whatever
(07:59):
we're working on.
But yeah, as james said, it'sjust the kind of market is
naturally coming to us, largerand higher end.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Is it worth digging into some of those design ideas
and philosophies.
So what are you guys, I guess,in search of through your
architecture?
What are you digging for withthese light and proportions?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, we probably differ slightly between us,
between James and I, but there'soverlap.
But for me, proportion isreally important and creating a
calm environment.
So less materials and materialsthat are fairly low contrast
with each other, so you'recreating quite a harmonious
(08:42):
space.
But then, yeah, yeah, layeringan atmosphere, like certain you
know, certain spaces kind ofdemand a different, a different
atmosphere, so it's notnecessarily all like bright and
light all the time, but it'sprobably, yeah, like a clarity,
um, that you're kind ofsearching for yeah, I guess,
like all your um projects I see,have a good mass, good weight
(09:06):
to them.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Is that something that you're pushing for in
projects?
This whole face will haveHorizontal, yeah, horizontal,
elements.
It's kind of like a simplifiedprairie house, some of them
Massive horizontal elements, butthen being careful not to
puncture that with anythingElemental forces there probably
(09:27):
is.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
I um say there's been like a ongoing exploration.
For us is something as simpleas openings in a building.
So, like those are doors andglazing.
In terms of, like interiorexperience, you don't really
need, you don't always need fivemeters of glass to have, you
know, like to celebrate a view,you might only need four meters,
(09:48):
and then it can be actuallyquite nice to have a solid three
meters of wall adjacent thatand that's where your art goes.
Or you know, there's um thatallows for interior furnishing
and things like that.
So I think, um, and and alsolike considering like the way
light comes into the building,um, you know how you want that
interior atmosphere to feel.
That's like there might besomething in that for the way we
(10:10):
maybe a language that starts tobecome apparent in the
buildings we do.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
A lot of your windows are sort of full height, so you
get like these monoliths,stonehenge style massings and
then like a roof, yeah, kind oflike a roof, yeah, kind of like
a secular pavilion yeah, whichworks beautifully with, like
when you chuck that's around theearth or something, you start
(10:37):
to create a pretty beautifulbuilding pretty quickly.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
Also touching on what Thomas said earlier, like
designing so that we canassemble the buildings in the
way we want.
So like, say, a wall has moremass than that.
That might like allow us todifferentiate between, like the
glazing that's adjacent.
Quite often we like search forways to like reduce the amount
(11:01):
of like window frame that youcan see, yeah, so it does become
like just quite elemental, soit might be like a wall, and
then glass, so like, for example, we don't do bifold doors that
often because like so much ofthe like profiles, yeah, yeah,
and it's like and fixed glazingis something we're quite
(11:23):
interested in where, like notNot every piece of glazing needs
to open.
It could actually be 80% of aglass wall is fixed, and then
you might have a pivot.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, in those scenarios do you start playing
with window profiles and kind ofsimplify that down to like
glued-in systems?
You bring that elemental natureright down to like load and
systems.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You bring that elemental nature right down to
the to the finer details yeah,and when you guys are working,
do you typically kind of justlike pick up a project and I
don't know, maybe like oneperson's working on one and
someone else is leading another,or do you have like quite a
collaborative work style?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
it's led.
It's led by jams at night, um.
So we'll set the direction ofevery project.
So it will be that where we'rekind of essentially designing,
designing the bones of it, andthen now with nina, like nina's
having input, um, like fairlyearly on as on as a design
(12:25):
reviewer.
But it's like the direction isdefinitely being set from James
and I, which we talked aboutquite a bit prior to having a
staff member.
That that's the pathway that wewanted to follow for
consistency, and also that'spart of the reason why we
(12:46):
started the practice was wewanted to design buildings and
so it's yeah, like it'simportant that we're both and
that we're both touching it andwe're not.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It's not like james's projects and in my projects,
yeah yeah, yeah, gerard and Icollaborate on well quite a bit
actually recently.
But it's always funny at thestart of the project it's like,
okay, cool, you know.
Like this is the everyone knowswhat's what.
Like this is the scheme.
And then we go away, test somestuff individually and come back
(13:16):
and we've just got, you know,completely different concepts
for the same thing.
And then we kind of slowlybring it it together over time.
Is that kind of similar for youguys, or do you do like a lot
of like initial sketchingtogether, or what's your, what's
your design process?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I think, like like the last thing we've been
designing, we we actually spentquite a long time on site, like
it might have been, um, or theywere there for two days and
spent like a good chunk of timeon the site and actually like
walking through the choreographythat we could imagine and then
sketching live.
That's cool, yeah, so likereally using the site to inform
(13:59):
the To draw it out.
Yeah, and that kind of likestarts to form your bubble
diagrams and so we're doing thattogether and then we might both
go away and sketch a plan eachthat reflects that.
But they're probably like,they're probably relatively
similar, and then it's just kindof turning and throwing and
finessing.
Oh yeah, we're trying to spendmore time sketching before we
(14:22):
get into software.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah yeah, that makes sense and so that's like
perspectives and, um, you know,elevations and and whatever you
can probably quite a lot ofplanning.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Even just to spell it out in terms of how we what we
might be doing, it's when we'reon site where the question might
be where's the natural point ofentry to the house?
And then something we do quiteoften is at the point of entry
divides the house into publicand a private part of the house,
and for the public part we'retrying to think about how the
entry can make it intuitive togo to the public part of the
(14:59):
house, and then the private partis more likely to be obvious
only to people that live thereevery day.
When Thomas and I go away andstart sketching, we might have
already established that aspectof the bubble diagram.
It's like here's where we'regoing to do the living and
here's where you're going torest.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And I guess, like view shafts and lighting play
into that quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It's like giving someone a taste of say there's
an amazing view, giving someonea taste of the view, like it
might be a little sliver, andthen you're turning them 180
degrees away from it and then Iguess a lot of Japanese
architecture have the sameprinciples.
Where you're, it feels likeyou're really dragging out the
(15:47):
entry experience.
It's so different to a lot ofKiwi homes where you just open
the front door and you're in.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, there's like a white.
You're facing like a white wallor something.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A blank wall and some shoes.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Are you like it does?
It's all part of the experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And do you guys do uh much like model making at that
stage or anything as part ofyour process, or do you kind of
like take that and then bring itinto uh software of some
description and start just kindof adding those layers?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
yeah, yeah, like quite a bit of um.
So we use archicad, which Iguess thomas and I have both
been in it for like 10 years, soit's like quite easy software
for us to use.
And, yeah, I guess it's just, asyou know, like the detail
progressively builds up but likethe early concept modeling is
like quite elemental and we aretrying to think about like even
(16:39):
in the last year to six months,we've been trying to think a lot
more about how we're bringinglight and it's almost like
bringing light into the buildingbut then also like creating
spaces that have more likemoodiness and, uh, darkness, I
guess.
But yeah, it's uh, probably ourprocess would be like get the
(17:01):
plan good, test how that plan isgoing and come back to the plan
to see if there's certain movesthat aren't kind of like
working that well in 3d, butthey are in plan and it's like
that constant, like refinementof um, yeah, trying to generate
ultimately a building.
But it's like, yeah, I feellike sometimes there can be a
(17:22):
conflict and like we'replanning's working well, but the
actual 3D and the experience isgood, and so we spend quite a
bit of time going back and forthjust trying to refine and
iterate and tick in as manyboxes as we can.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Do you kind of have, I guess, from spending so much
time on site.
Does that kind of give you afeeling for what kind of
materials would work well withthe project at that kind of
early stage, or is that is thatkind of developed as well a
little bit over time?
Or do you just kind of stickwith stuff that you've
(17:56):
potentially used in the pastthat you know works, or that's
quite.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That's quite a topical question, ben.
Like we're still trying to findout a way with the materiality.
Like it's um.
Like for me, designingbuildings that have a
relationship to their context isreally important.
So, like, I'm not sure if thisis the same for you guys, but
like you, you can, you'll havelike your own reference points
(18:20):
and then you'll have clientreference points for what they,
what they like um, and thenyou've got the site and what
feels appropriate and then kindof like natural, like material
materials on hand.
So you're trying to find theoverlap of all those things.
Typically, we have a prettygood idea of what sort of
material we're looking at earlyon, and then it's about refining
(18:41):
it.
Um, I think if you're in astage where you've got a design
and you're trying to work outwhat to clad it on is, I feel
like you're in a slightlydangerous position, because it
was like the materiality shouldbe a fundamental aspect of the
design.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I find that I I always get kind of bored with
what I've been using.
Perhaps I've used it a few toomany times, I don't know, and so
like just constantly trying tofind it doesn't even need to be
that different, just somethingthat I don't know how to explain
it when something's like notquite ticking the boxes anymore.
(19:18):
But yeah, you're not sure whatto switch to.
I guess what's what's?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
what are you thinking of?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
no, just like in I in general, the use of, for
example, timber or brick oranything that's like super
common without the iron.
I just find, like you know, youalways come back to those three
or four or whatever and thenit's kind of hard to find
something and that kind of leadsyour design a little bit too
(19:47):
much because you know thedetails perhaps a little bit too
well.
So it's always reallyinteresting to hear people that
use a new, unique, clean, nice,yeah, different materials,
x-penny materials.
Well, that's the, that's thething you know.
Like, if you two, if you guyswere to design your own house
(20:08):
for yourselves, I guess, likewould you be using a lot of the
same details, and let's justassume that we're, like you know
, five years into business oryou know something, we're not
super, not not down the trackwhen you know I'm sure you guys
will do very, be very, verysuccessful, but you know what I
mean like first homeowner status, would you kind of be designing
(20:31):
a house using a lot of yourdetails or do you think that you
could find a way to kind ofrefine a lot of them to be used
at that level?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
yeah, I think.
So I think maybe not the Canyou?
Speaker 4 (20:44):
use an expensive material cheap as opposed to a
cheap material to look expensive.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I guess it's more the design anyway.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, I think the base principles of good
proportions, well-balanced roomsand volume, those things don't
necessarily have to be superexpensive.
But then it's another thing.
To clear everything in stoneit's a different story.
(21:10):
So it'd be the same taking thesame principles or not having
skirtings and full height doors,that sort of thing.
So, yeah, taking a few cues butnot being able to afford the
full shebang.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Everyone has a budget constraint at some point.
I think a big part ofarchitecture is people are like
oh, we can't do that becauseit's too expensive.
In my mind, there's a millionways of achieving, let's say,
these monolithic,stonehenge-like qualities with a
range of materials.
I kind of like the idea of abig.
In my head.
I'm just imagining one of thosemega monolith buildings, but
(21:49):
all in everything's galvcorrugate Loving simple galv
corrugate these days.
Beautiful New Zealand,contextualised material Like
Glen Merkitt, using simplematerials in beautiful ways.
I think that's always been thestrength of architecture being
able to play your own game atdifferent financial scales.
(22:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
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Speaker 2 (22:53):
One thing I've always been impressed with with you
guys is just that supercleanliness.
Going back to the form and thematerial, how have you gone
about learning how to detailsome of that stuff?
Because I've spent a lot of mygood part of my life with
(23:13):
details and, man, some of thatstuff just blows my, my mind.
I have no idea how you do it orhow you'd even go about doing
it.
So well done there.
But what is what's the kind ofstrategy when you kind of you
come across something thatperhaps is a little bit unique
or you really want to like keepbecause it's like such a big
part of the design.
You know, how do you kind ofwork through those, those
(23:36):
details and keep them?
The right intention, I guess.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Thanks, ben, that's the best thing to say, I guess.
When we're like the assembly ofthe buildings, I guess it
contributes so much to theatmosphere and sometimes it
could even be like the absenceof complexity.
But you know, just the buildingfeeling really simple but
accomplishing that can be quitechallenging, definitely, yeah,
(24:04):
recently we had a um.
I've probably got two examplesof like just something that we
put a lot of effort into butthere may be not that many
people would care about, butperhaps most people that go into
the building would appreciateit.
So we did a hair salon that'sgot 100mm by 100mm tile across
(24:26):
the whole flooring but then whenyou factor in the grout join
it's like a module of 105 by 105.
We basically set out the whole,like every element in the
building, to that floor tilemodule and, uh, like, I think
for the builder on site it wasprobably a little bit
frustrating.
(24:46):
We, we told them it was almostlike we gave them the license to
so that, like they, they mighthave had 30 millimeters or 40
millimeters of margin to shiftthings around so that they
aligned with modules.
But it was like, just likeputting that level of effort
into something that was likebecause it was such a simple
like interior fit out.
That almost was the design Like.
(25:08):
You could definitely arguethere's some other things we did
in there as well, but it waslike, just like I guess I'd call
it like a rigor and anattention to detail that I'd say
made the project better, butlike.
The second example is like wehad on this small-ish renovation
in Kandala.
We were talking to Nina aboutlike doing a 250mm wide
(25:32):
floorboard versus a 300mm widefloorboard and then working out
what alignments we're trying toaccomplish in terms of how a
full module of the floorboard umlike aligns with walls and
things like that.
And like the island for thekitchen, like is that a meter?
Because it's, you know, yeah,like that kind of stuff.
Um, and it was, yeah.
(25:54):
We just asked nina it's like,is this up?
Like are we being?
Like, is this crazy to you thatwe're putting like this effort
in?
She said that she's seen itbefore at some of the european
practices that she's worked at.
Um, but yeah, like, thomas,would you have?
Like it's not just alignmentsthat we're focusing on, but it
is that's awesome though.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I love to hear it.
I love I can imagine the floorguy installer was pretty stoked
with that.
But super cool though supercool.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah, and even just like the floorboard examples,
because it would be an easypathway for us is just to
specify.
Let's say it's 250, right, butthen our second guessing whether
it's 250 or 300 is basicallywe're trying to work out if the
space can handle a 300, likeproportionally, or if it would
(26:44):
feel weird because it's just toowide, and so that's like,
that's also what's going throughour heads in that, in that
conversation.
So, yeah, what's like what'sgoing to feel right or is it
going to feel jarring?
Yeah, so yeah, alignments andspacing and like volume, like we
, yeah, we, we kind ofinterrogate quite a bit, like
this overall proportion of aroom gets interrogated quite a
(27:06):
bit.
And then the details, like, asyou know, again it's like it is,
it is iteration, like andworking with the builders to
iterate, iterate the detail and,um, yeah, as long as you're
kind of communicating what theintent is and you've got good
builders, then like it is a goodand good engineers, like it's a
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Do you use like any kind of like early contractor
involvement and that sort ofthing just to like help with
some of those tricky details aswell?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We've had quite a few like a few clients who've had
builders either they've been thebuilder or builder as family
members.
So through the nature of thisearly contractor engagement,
eastbourne yeah, eastbourneHouse was called the builder.
He was the builder.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
He's a really good builder.
By the looks of that house likeit's super crispy.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, he's done a good job yeah, like the one's
like where all the walls arefull boards, um.
Yeah, it's like a two mil gap,um.
But I think early contractorI'm a fan of generally, because
you're just getting kind ofearly buy-in, you're not having
(28:22):
a tender, the builder is such animportant part of the team and
the engineers and the servicesengineers or other consultants
you're kind of rounding out thatteam early on and are working
towards the same goal, which isgood, yeah, and I can imagine
you apply the same or similarprinciples to a lot of your like
(28:44):
internal joinery, for example.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
your houses really seem like almost like a bit of
furniture where it's kind oflike design.
The inside is kind of in such,in such I don't know
well-balanced, harmonious, youknow, environment that it kind
of feels like it's just oneobject as opposed to I don't
know, perhaps something withlike an interior designer or
(29:09):
something I don't know yeah.
So I guess like yeah, you mustkind of put a lot of effort into
a lot of your internal joineryand the actual fit out as well
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
And same same ideas of rhythm and even spacing of of
cabinetry doors and, yeah, likeon the same, that same project
that james was talking aboutwith the floorboards.
You know, trying to work out afarm, like we're basically like
saying throughout the house thatyou don't have to have a high
toe kick.
Say, you've got a whole bank ofjoinery and the doors are 10
(29:41):
mils off the ground, or are they20 mils off the ground?
And then what's your toe kickin the kitchen, trying to bring
that down as minimal as youcould without meaning you stub
your toe every time you open adrawer.
So yeah, kind of diving intoall of those things the toe
kicks quite satisfying.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I wonder if we can circle all the way back right to
the the beginning, interestedto know at what stage you guys
were working and then, like, didyou guys found a project
together or something like thefirst client that sort of
launched it together, and whatwas that sort of the case and
what sort of what were yourinitial projects that kept you
off?
Speaker 5 (30:20):
at my end.
Um, I was like I think I justum, I was maybe like 31 or 32
when we started bring chicken.
Just yeah, yeah, um and uh, Iwas like, oh, if you want to
start an architecture practice,it's probably harder to do when
you're 40.
So I was just like, oh, it's agood time to start in terms of
(30:43):
time of life, but it wasn't agreat time to start in terms of
we didn't actually have projects.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
So you started without a project.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
We started with maybe like a month's worth of work
ahead of us that's a lot of workin there.
It's in like two weeks work andit was, I think it was um, but
like, so there's that in thebackground, it's like oh, it
makes sense to start anarchitecture practice, and
probably that was my thing waslike I think architecture is
(31:17):
like quite a cool profession ifit's their own business yeah a
different profession, um, toworking for someone else, I'd
say.
But like there's you knowdownsides of that in terms of,
um, managing pressure andresponsibility and whatnot.
Uh yeah, so thomas and I we wedid a cafe at Wellington Airport
together as like a private jobwhen we were at our previous
(31:38):
firm.
That was like probably likesome of the ideas we're
interested in we were testingthere.
It's almost like just beenaspirational in terms of what
we're trying to do on theproject and what we're signing
up for.
So on that one, we wanted to doaged brass, but no one was
(32:00):
going to make it easy for us todo aged brass, so we ended up
aging the brass ourselves acrossthe whole project Nice, like in
your garage or something.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
No, how long did that take Out on the back lawn, I
think probably that's like aweek's worth of free labor to
make it happen.
Nice.
That's what it's about, man.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Yeah, yeah, and it's like when we walked past there.
Now it's like check in to seehow it's patina-ing.
Actually, I'm pretty happy Goodaging going on.
Yeah, so we actuallyaccelerated the, the aging.
But what's kind of interestingis like there's the parts of the
um like fit out that arewearing through and it's getting
(32:45):
like that natural polish thathappens from like use, rubbing
away some aging and it goes abit more like brass Shiny, but
like that's quite a specificexample and not very good like
story about how we started.
Nah.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
I think it's a real story of how you started.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yeah, it's like humble beginnings.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Yeah, I think everyone starts off like that
and get on, even with Ben andWarren in the studio.
You guys, how much free labordid you do?
Speaker 5 (33:19):
House for free People are super grateful for that
kind of stuff, though Half thetime.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And didn't you plant a thousand trees?
Your head?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Well, I've also done a ginormous amount of free labor
.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, the piccolo as well, I know probably it's not
sustainable right too manypassion projects.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Well, we have a vision and yeah, push for it,
which is, yeah, part of whatgets us going up, get going in
the morning yeah what are?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
your thoughts.
Thomas, you're saying something.
No, no, I was just gonna say,um, yeah, we're probably like.
The learning in the first threeyears was, uh, was enormous,
and we did like, we did do a lot, of, a lot of different
projects and small, small ones,and then we got a.
Um, we got a, we got contactedby richard for the eastbourne
(34:16):
house and that and that was ourkind of big break.
The caveat there was it justhad to be done extraordinarily
quickly, so I think it was likesix months from coming into the
office to being on site, andthat included a resource consent
and building consent obviously.
But yeah, that kind of thatgave us like the experience and
(34:37):
the taste of doing um, higherend homes, and then it's, it's
kind of been like iterating fromfrom there with what feels like
quite a hiatus of the work, butit's just, the projects are
taking longer to finish.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, but you I mean you guys have been in a bunch of
publications like design andlocal project and the cover of
the financial times, which isquite spectacular, and you've
won a bunch of awards.
Is that your kind of mainstrategy for marketing now?
Is it kind of like, now thatyou've kind of got a couple of
(35:17):
really successful projects, isit starting to speak for itself?
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Like you said.
No, I think it's always good topush the work out there and you
need to know where it lands andwho picks it up.
But we're also we're relativelystrategic around what work
we're trying to get, and thenit's like who do we need to meet
to get that work?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Is that how you got on the cover of the Financial
Times?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
No, that was out of the blue, really.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So cool.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
That was out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
How'd that happen?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
We actually contacted Jessica Bell, who wrote the
article, contacted us about apiece for wallpaper which I
think we're still doing, but,like the, they work a year in
advance, so they're notpublishing until early next year
.
Oh cool.
And then, and then she said,but.
And then, like a few weekslater, she said, oh, there's
(36:15):
this other piece in theFinancial Times.
Can you, you know, can we havea chat about it?
So we did that, and then, goodtarget market for you.
I can imagine I think the likethe coolest thing for us was
just being like sittingalongside those other architects
yeah, architects that you, youknow we like Herbst, and who
(36:37):
else was it?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Pattersons, Ferran Hay, Ferran Hay, I mean like
that's really cool and reallyimpressive, I would say yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah, nice work.
I think, like it is, it'sprobably like a balance between
the work, and then Jessica Bellactually follows us on Instagram
, so, like, like there's.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Instagram can be quite helpful, can't it?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah, can be quite a helpful tool.
We get some business coachingcool, so like there is, like
there is a bit of strategy kindof in the background.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
When I look at you guys, like probably the most
strategic office that I can see,I think like I've watched that
strategy because, for those whodon't know, me and Thomas were
in the same class.
Me and Thomas were in the samegroup in fifth year.
I've had a close eye on oldThomas for years, always had a
(37:31):
very nice aesthetic Right fromday one.
I think the intention ofputting out beautiful work,
beautiful renders I guess basedon the theory you get the work
you're seen doing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butseeing that sort of coming all
the way through and it seemsvery strategic, it's incredibly
clever and it seems to startpaying off.
(37:52):
At what point did you start tolook into the business coaching
side of things?
Because I think we come out ofschool and yet with no real
knowledge on how to run abusiness work for somebody.
Then you go give it a go andyou're like it's quite a bit to
this.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Yeah it's pretty key not to answer your question with
the question, but like um, whatdo you like with?
What do you guys think aboutwith your own businesses?
Like I feel, like inarchitecture and maybe like the
art world as well, trying to runa profitable business is almost
like some kind of selling outor compromise, like something
(38:30):
our business coach said to us islike you kind of need if you
don't have profit in yourbusiness.
Like you're not, yeah, you'renot going need if you don't have
profit in your business.
Like you're not, um, yeah,you're not going to be around
that's what the point of thebusiness is to make money.
So the business coach.
He came to us from like aclient saying hey, we like they,
(38:50):
they had a digital um like they, basically like they build
websites, but they also do somelike graphic design, and I think
when they started out, they hadlike this kind of before and
after moment of getting abusiness coach who really just
helped them with the businessside of what they did, and it
was just kind of basic stuffthat they hadn't really been
(39:12):
exposed to before was my readingof it, and so I think, yeah, I
I'd say like making sure youinvoice all your hours or
something what sort
Speaker 4 (39:21):
of basic what sort of basic things are we giving the
people?
Speaker 5 (39:24):
I suspect, is what like strategy or planning or
it's um well, like a simple onewould be um like how many
billable hours do you need to doa week to um break even, or you
know, keep track of youroverheads, and then I mean this
stuff's second nature to them,but do you need to do a week to
break even, or you?
Know.
Set a target, Keep track ofyour overheads.
I mean, this stuff's secondnature to them, but not for the
likes of myself another onewould be um, in terms of, uh
(39:50):
like supply and demand, do yousay, do you want to be a
practice with?
Do we want to be a practicewith three people?
Um, and like good work, or dowe say yes to like all the
projects that come our way andhave like six staff but like a
portion of that work is likereally challenging um from a
business perspective andprobably like a work life
(40:10):
satisfaction point of view.
That's part of our strategy isto like um, get, get good work.
That like maybe like just ticksthree boxes, which is like um,
it's like excitingarchitecturally.
Uh, the clients are good towork with.
And then the other one would belike there's like realistic
(40:31):
kind of like compensation, butlike yeah, and do they influence
your kind of marketing strategyat all?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
one thing that's kind of noticeable with you guys is
you do kind of use a lot ofrenders, I guess, to like
capture your target audience,which is a great strategy and I
think works really well, because, especially for you guys, like
it'd be very difficult to geteverything that you're designing
perhaps built or, like you weresaying before tom, it would
(41:03):
take a long period of time andlike the renders are just a way
to kind of bring that forward alittle bit definitely, I think,
what we'd like to get to thepoint where you only see built
work until then.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Yeah, the renders are like it's a good way to
communicate what we're workingon to then, you know, help push
the flywheel but also maybedemonstrate the ideas that we
have within the practice.
Yeah, and I think I've alsobeen quite flexible with like
what clients need.
So one of the projects on thereis for a client who's overseas,
(41:37):
like lives overseas, but doessignificant work here, and so
it's like an exercise of um,showing how what we could do,
and then that kind kind ofgenerates like a possibility of
work and then like opens thenetwork up as well.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, and must help with that.
You know the magazines andother bits and pieces.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah, I remember there was the
Australian, Dave Sharp.
There was an episode I rememberlistening to, maybe six months
ago, a practice that was quiteyoung, and they splashed out a
few bit of cash on renders toget all that up there and then I
think in that episode that paidoff quite well for that
(42:21):
practice.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
sort of the case of you guys.
Are you sort of outsourcingyour renders?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, outsourcing them, and it's actually quite
good like it closes the loop forus, like we're, because we can
see the designs in a reallyrealistic way, so like it's
almost like a, an educationaltool as well, so we can see how
those ideas translate into whatlike almost as close as you
could get to real life, so howhow the light might operate,
(42:48):
what is like that space feellike, or that proportion, that
materiality does that changeyour mind at all?
Speaker 4 (42:57):
on renders you know, gerard has never posted a render
yeah, I've gone the oppositeapproach of only showing it work
, like I think, like you guyshave.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I've been very uh strict on strategy, but maybe in
a slightly way for myself maybetoo strict in my my process,
but now that now I've beenenjoying the process yeah, now
that I think about it, though, II clearly know what you know,
seabard ross as a firm is allabout really, whether that's you
(43:30):
know through some of theirbuilt work, or or your, your
renders, or whatnot.
But, gerard, I think you'relike I've seen a lot of your
work behind the scenes and likethe the front of your company
does not show remotely thatyou're actually working on.
So I don't know, man, I'm notconvinced.
(43:51):
I think I think I like therender strategy for sure.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Yeah, you know I've?
Uh yeah, because me and connortalked about this at length over
the years and that was sort ofhe's also the worst person to
ask because he's just as bad asyou are yeah, we've built
ourselves into this littlecorner of obscurity, but this is
(44:16):
the benefit of life, isn't it?
You go through things and it's.
I am changing my mind as we goon, so I think we might start
cracking up to renders a bitmore as we go.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I think that projection and I think now
there's enough buildings thatare believable as built outcomes
yeah, we definitely pivotbetween, like wanting to be a
bit obscure and then, um, likeout there.
Yeah, it's something we're likewe discuss constantly.
(44:48):
It's like how much, how mucheffort do you put into getting
your name out there versus what?
Speaker 4 (44:54):
And you're like 100%.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Do people like discovering someone who's like a
bit of an enigma?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Have you guys paid for marketing at all?
Speaker 5 (45:07):
Didn't you do AdWords ?
We tried.
We did test Google AdWords.
We tried.
We did test Google AdWords, yes, for a week.
Yeah yeah, got a call askinglike is this Warren Armani?
They clicked on the wrongnumber.
Hey, it's putting you in theright spot then, yeah, but it
(45:29):
was from a tradie asking forlike a um color speak, or no,
that's like I still get phonecalls from makers every week, I
reckon, and I like I can seeit's from wellington.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
So I'm just like, straight away, I'm like is this
for makers?
Speaker 4 (45:47):
yeah, yeah I still get people asking me if you're
at makers, are you not at makersagain?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
and so this episode is brought to you by beer
architecture and beerconstruction tom, you also do a
lot of photography and you guysalso did some furniture design
with.
Was it wood, wood right, wasn'tit?
Which was amazing Really, Idon't know.
I guess really similar to yourarchitecture aesthetic, super
(46:19):
clean and, yeah, really nice.
Is that kind of all just funpassion projects as well, or
does it kind of tie into thearchitecture at all?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It definitely ties into the architecture.
Like it was a bit of achallenge for us to design
something of that scale, likemuch smaller chair, which is
probably arguably the one of thehardest things to design, and
we we learned a lot through thatprocess.
But yeah, we're pretty keen tohave the furniture as a like
constant bread running throughdo you specify it into your
(46:51):
buildings?
rad's always trying to do we, um, I don't know if you guys are
the same, but sometimes you getsick of seeing your own stuff.
So, yeah, we, we probably wentthrough like an initial phase
where it was, it was in a fewthings, but now, yeah, now we
like we're not gravitatingtowards it as much doesn't it
mean you just need to designsomething?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
something else yeah, you need more of a selection
can't find I've done thesethings yeah, I had thought about
that, gerard.
Speaker 5 (47:21):
Like, what would the like?
Revision two of, like the chairwe designed to be, and even for
the table as well?
Um, I think there might be.
It's just that next round oflike trying to make it 10 better
or something.
Yeah, that probably does alignwith our design philosophy.
Is like not every project is umtrying to like differentiate
(47:43):
too much from something we'vedone in the past.
It might actually borrow theideas that we thought were good
job.
When you're doing yourfurniture, what's the thinking
there?
Is it like, do you see that asarchitecture or is it just yeah,
100 um, definitely architecture.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
I've always thought it was like mini architecture.
I've also.
The whole intention behind theworkshop was like architecture
research, those generally.
I mean you lose track of itfrom time to time and then you
circle back trying to exploreideas that you could upscale or
downscale, just playing withdesign.
(48:21):
But I also have like a millionideas, so it's like um, there's
just a million chairs I want tobuild.
I had a business advisor personfor a little bit and they said
I should stop making chairscatch up yeah, you can't look
for a new business advisor?
Speaker 5 (48:41):
was he not saying there's like good money in
prototypes?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
endless prototypes.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I have a habit of just having an idea that I'm
trying to explore, irrespectiveof client or no client, so
always find yourself down in theworkshop thinking about
something and being like, ohshit, I brought all these
materials and now I've wastedtwo days of potential billable
labor yeah, yeah, but you'vesatisfied your ideas yeah, yeah
(49:12):
it's.
I find it very hard to regretthese things.
Yeah, maybe my bank accountwill help me do that I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Some of the ideas that you got coming out sound
pretty interesting.
I don't know if the we can talkabout those yet, though can we
watch the space, space, watchthis space.
So what's on the cards forSandbar and Ross?
You guys flat out, or?
Speaker 3 (49:37):
We're like busy enough.
It's kind of a I don't know ifyou guys are the same, but it's
like if everything goes live,then you're way too busy and you
need to hire more people.
Or if everything stops, thenlike you're way too busy and
need to hire more people, or ifeverything stops, then you're in
trouble.
Yeah, so we're kind of like weprobably are right always to the
(49:57):
remit fine line yeah, yeah, butno, like we've got some yeah,
some really exciting stuff.
And then some like projects thathave like long, long tales,
like a.
And then some projects thathave long tails, like a heritage
restoration, renovation andremodeling, which we've been
(50:18):
working on for I think it's afew years now, but that's only
just on site, so that's stillgot a long Cool.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
We're already ahead of it At least it made it to
site that one.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
It's positive.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Yeah, it is yeah, but yeah, no, we're feeling
optimistic and yeah, it seemslike the market overall starts
to rebound a bit.
Talking to a few architects,it's a little bit doom and gloom
out there.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, it's funny times.
Yeah, Very strange times yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
How about Bit flat at the moment, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (50:55):
Yeah, is that the same with the property side, Ben
?
Speaker 2 (50:58):
It's definitely flat with the property side.
But yeah, I'm always optimistic.
Hopefully it's kind of startingto creep up a little bit.
Now it feels better up here butin Auckland I'm not sure about
Wellington's always kind of lagsa year or so behind.
But yeah, I think things arecreeping up.
(51:18):
I'm trying to buy a house atthe moment and there's a lot of
people trying to buy the samehouses.
There must be people out therepurchasing.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
I wonder if, to a nice sort of sum up, I feel like
a lot of us who start officesand are battling away in a one
to two to three person teamdon't often see or I don't know,
you don't see the background orwhat anybody else is going
through.
So I wonder if you could likerun through some of your sort of
(51:50):
bigger tips that you've foundthrough your process that kind
of kept you going and kept thework coming or kept you excited
about moving forward bigquestion.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, um, something I think I care a lot
about is brand.
So like not doing anything tojeopardize the brand, like if
you, as soon as you start tojeopardize that, then your
options, I think, become quitelimited.
So that's something that we'vebeen like very careful of and
(52:20):
like we've also made our ownmistakes in that regard that
we've learned from like, yeah,probably being like quite
curated with what you show,investing in good photography,
so, yeah, it makes a bigdifference.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
Do you find there's like those approaches, there's a
large dose of persistencethat's required, yeah yeah,
which I feel pays off, butsometimes you really have to
remind yourself what you'redoing.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's why, personally, I've
enjoyed having these two of usoff, but sometimes you really
have to remind yourself whatyou're doing.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's why,like, like, personally, I've
enjoyed having, like there's twoof us.
So you know there is likeyou're, you're kind of in the
trenches together.
It's a nice way to balance it,balance it out.
What about you?
Speaker 5 (53:02):
james, I think something that we've, um, that's
been like quite helpful for usis we catch up with it maybe
three or four architects thathave their own companies and
they're kind of like in their60s and they've been like really
helpful for just like checkingin on different questions that
feel fresh to us.
But they might have dealt withlike 20 or 30 times.
That's been.
That's been quite helpful andwe probably like tried to seek
(53:25):
out some of those people wedidn't know before we started.
We sought them out and theywere just generous with their
time.
So I think there's been a realbenefit in that, because maybe
some of their advice has been inthat persistence kind of camp
of just saying if you canestablish a brand that people
see value working with, thenthese other things kind of come
(53:49):
like good projects come.
You know people want to pay foryour like skill set, I guess,
and your work.
So it's like, yeah, thesecheck-ins that like I guess,
like we, I think we've maybe afew years ago we were just like
light on work when, like I thinkthere were a few others in that
camp.
The whole world was light onwork when, like I think there
were a few others in that campthe whole world was light on
(54:10):
work yeah, but it was like likepart of what we did was we used
the time that we, like we hadtime where we didn't have
projects to work on and so we'd,like you know, did invest in.
Like well, like we either overdelivered on the projects that
we had or invested in ideas.
So the furniture collaborationwasn't really about money for us
(54:33):
.
It was about just trying torefine something and put as much
work in as was required for usto be proud of it.
That kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (54:40):
Everything didn't need to like an earlier
conversation, didn't need tostack up financially, but it was
viewed as an investment in thefuture, I think that's something
I see in you guys that you'rehappy to spend internal
investment for the future gain,which I think everyone could
learn from a little bit.
Thanks for coming on, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
Awesome watching you guys over the years and I think
it's going to be cool to seewhere you guys go.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
For sure, we're rooting for you.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Thank you, thanks for having us.
Yeah, must work with thepodcast.
Speaker 4 (55:16):
It's bloody brilliant .
Thanks.
It's a bloody good podcast,isn't it?
Thank you.
Just like our guests say, this beer is all class.
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Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
Today, we're lucky enough to bejoined by two exceptionally
talented architects doingincredible work across New
Zealand Tom Seabud and JamesRoss, founders of Seabud Ross.
We explore building a business,designing architecture,
crafting furniture andphotography, and how Tom and
(00:39):
James bring the same intentional, design-led approach to all of
these disciplines, creating workthat feels both refined and
impactful.
I especially enjoyed hearingtheir discussion around
conducting a site investigationand planning spatial layouts
anyway.
So, yeah, welcome to the pod.
I don't know, have you guysever, uh, done a podcast of of
(01:24):
any description before?
Speaker 3 (01:25):
We have.
We did one what felt like 30seconds into starting the
business, which was reallyinteresting.
That was for was that for thedesign files?
I don't know for Habitusactually.
But yeah, we were very freshand that was just before COVID,
so it was kind of.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
Yeah, that's a while ago.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah Well, you guys have come a long way.
I suspect you've got a lot moreto talk about this time around.
Speaker 5 (01:48):
Definitely I've listened to lots of podcasts as
well.
Yeah, quite a few goodarchitecture ones out there.
What's your go-to?
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Yeah, as well as the Design Principles pod Design
Principles obviously is thenumber one.
I thought you'd say that.
Speaker 5 (02:04):
Probably my favorite would be the Dave.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Sharp Video Sharp, he's clinical eh.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Yeah, he's good.
We come and go.
We listen to a little bit ofBusiness Architecture UK as well
.
Yep, same.
Yeah, it's kind of like youhave to take a little bit of the
almost interpret the advice forour own context because, um,
yeah, quite different over there, whereas at least australia is
(02:35):
a lot more relevant, I guess forus isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:38):
and it's cool listening to all the firms.
He does a good job.
I don't know how, but he really, like you know, he interviews
some amazing architects anddesigners.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
So, uh, kudos to him for that yeah, it's awesome how
he's branched into the uk withhis uk series been enjoying that
lately.
Yeah, I found after a while somehave like really good
information in there, but yourun sort of crowds around things
that are have impacted themover time, but after you'd
listen to quite a few you canstart to get quite a balanced
(03:09):
idea around all these sort ofmarketing ideas and things.
So yeah, yeah, it's a superhelpful thing to have that
little resource in thebackground, because marketing
for architecture is a strangetopic.
Speaker 5 (03:23):
I think marketing for architects is quite interesting
because there's almost likesome organic ways that just by
doing your work you create yourown marketing, which is probably
like the default for a lot ofarchitects.
So it's like publication andawards, yeah, and I guess
Instagram as well generates abit of attention.
But I think that's quite aninteresting question.
(03:45):
It's like whether there's otherthings you do beyond those kind
of traditional like methods, Iguess.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
What have you found, you guys, doing, or strategies
you've had a crack at, or do wedo?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
we want to just jump in with a quick overview before
we dive straight into deepmarketing strategies.
Now we'd love to hear a bitmore about you know, Sebad Ross
and who you guys are, and, yeah,goals and ambitions.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Yeah, so we, james and I, started the practice
almost six years ago and we bothcame from a commercial
architecture background and soboth going for a relatively
large practice, and I wanted tocraft our own journey and, yeah,
do some work.
That was kind of a bit morepeed back, refined, kind of have
(04:32):
a bit more autonomy as well inour own careers, and it was
basically it's basically beenthe two of us the whole time.
We've recently taken on anotherstaff member, nina, who has
come over from the uk, so shebrings, you know, a whole lot of
knowledge from europe, which isreally good and, yeah, mainly
working on residential projectsaround the country and a little
(04:52):
bit of commercial, but, yeah,probably 80, 80 resi one of
houses quite high end thoughwould I would I mean, I would
say has it all been high end,Like we've done everything from
bathroom renos.
Like we went through a periodwhere we're kind of doing the
(05:13):
building drawings for someinterior designers that couldn't
file them.
So we're doing a bathroom reno,but yeah now sort of like
houses that are up, definitelyup there, and um kind of scale
and is it?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
is that mainly because you know the stuff that
you guys want to be designing,which is quite minimal, clean,
super clean, probably like thecleanest architecture, I would
say, in the residential realm?
For sure is it so?
Is it because it because thestuff that you guys want to be
designing kind of leads youtowards that higher end realm,
(05:50):
or do you try and just bringthat into any work you do?
Speaker 5 (05:56):
I think it was Claire Cousins.
I heard her talk about in aninterview that she quite likes
doing small scale projectsbecause they have a fast
turnaround and they are almostlike a good way to explore ideas
and they're quite satisfyingjust because they're that quick
and it might take a year or twoyears to go from start to finish
.
So I guess an example would belike Terrier Fit Out.
(06:19):
So we definitely don't say noto small projects, but probably
what we find like the trend isis that, um, people that want to
work with us do have like quitebig projects, um, and so if
someone has a small alteration,they probably, they probably in
general they don't want to spendmuch of their allocated budget
(06:41):
on design fees would be just ourexperience.
But if someone did want tospend much of their allocated
budget on design fees would bejust our experience.
But if someone did want to pay,basically us for our time to
work on a small project woulddefinitely be interested in it.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
But it does probably mean, you know, the percentage
fees are quite high in thecontext of their budget it's
also like throughout, like we'velearned to well, we've kind of
learned that designing simple,what feels like a simple
building, is actually quiteexpensive.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
And hard to achieve.
I can imagine, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Like, if you want to, you know, hide all your
flashings and do multiple layersof cleaning and all that sort
of stuff, like that's a it's aexpensive way to build so that
naturally kind of shuts you offfrom an end of the market.
You know, like we're working ona renovation in kandala at the
(07:37):
moment which is like it's it'skind of expensive for for what
it is, but it's not um, liketheir overall project cost isn't
like some of the new houses,but it has the same ideas as the
new houses in terms of, youknow, light and proportion and
materiality, flow andchoreography.
We kind of apply the same, thesame principles to whatever
(07:59):
we're working on.
But yeah, as james said, it'sjust the kind of market is
naturally coming to us, largerand higher end.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Is it worth digging into some of those design ideas
and philosophies.
So what are you guys, I guess,in search of through your
architecture?
What are you digging for withthese light and proportions?
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Yeah, we probably differ slightly between us,
between James and I, but there'soverlap.
But for me, proportion isreally important and creating a
calm environment.
So less materials and materialsthat are fairly low contrast
with each other, so you'recreating quite a harmonious
(08:42):
space.
But then, yeah, yeah, layeringan atmosphere, like certain you
know, certain spaces kind ofdemand a different, a different
atmosphere, so it's notnecessarily all like bright and
light all the time, but it'sprobably, yeah, like a clarity,
um, that you're kind ofsearching for yeah, I guess,
like all your um projects I see,have a good mass, good weight
(09:06):
to them.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
Is that something that you're pushing for in
projects?
This whole face will haveHorizontal, yeah, horizontal,
elements.
It's kind of like a simplifiedprairie house, some of them
Massive horizontal elements, butthen being careful not to
puncture that with anythingElemental forces there probably
(09:27):
is.
Speaker 5 (09:27):
I um say there's been like a ongoing exploration.
For us is something as simpleas openings in a building.
So, like those are doors andglazing.
In terms of, like interiorexperience, you don't really
need, you don't always need fivemeters of glass to have, you
know, like to celebrate a view,you might only need four meters,
(09:48):
and then it can be actuallyquite nice to have a solid three
meters of wall adjacent thatand that's where your art goes.
Or you know, there's um thatallows for interior furnishing
and things like that.
So I think, um, and and alsolike considering like the way
light comes into the building,um, you know how you want that
interior atmosphere to feel.
That's like there might besomething in that for the way we
(10:10):
maybe a language that starts tobecome apparent in the
buildings we do.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
A lot of your windows are sort of full height, so you
get like these monoliths,stonehenge style massings and
then like a roof, yeah, kind oflike a roof, yeah, kind of like
a secular pavilion yeah, whichworks beautifully with, like
when you chuck that's around theearth or something, you start
(10:37):
to create a pretty beautifulbuilding pretty quickly.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:41):
Also touching on what Thomas said earlier, like
designing so that we canassemble the buildings in the
way we want.
So like, say, a wall has moremass than that.
That might like allow us todifferentiate between, like the
glazing that's adjacent.
Quite often we like search forways to like reduce the amount
(11:01):
of like window frame that youcan see, yeah, so it does become
like just quite elemental, soit might be like a wall, and
then glass, so like, for example, we don't do bifold doors that
often because like so much ofthe like profiles, yeah, yeah,
and it's like and fixed glazingis something we're quite
(11:23):
interested in where, like notNot every piece of glazing needs
to open.
It could actually be 80% of aglass wall is fixed, and then
you might have a pivot.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, in those scenarios do you start playing
with window profiles and kind ofsimplify that down to like
glued-in systems?
You bring that elemental natureright down to like load and
systems.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
You bring that elemental nature right down to
the to the finer details yeah,and when you guys are working,
do you typically kind of justlike pick up a project and I
don't know, maybe like oneperson's working on one and
someone else is leading another,or do you have like quite a
collaborative work style?
Speaker 3 (12:05):
it's led.
It's led by jams at night, um.
So we'll set the direction ofevery project.
So it will be that where we'rekind of essentially designing,
designing the bones of it, andthen now with nina, like nina's
having input, um, like fairlyearly on as on as a design
(12:25):
reviewer.
But it's like the direction isdefinitely being set from James
and I, which we talked aboutquite a bit prior to having a
staff member.
That that's the pathway that wewanted to follow for
consistency, and also that'spart of the reason why we
(12:46):
started the practice was wewanted to design buildings and
so it's yeah, like it'simportant that we're both and
that we're both touching it andwe're not.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
It's not like james's projects and in my projects,
yeah yeah, yeah, gerard and Icollaborate on well quite a bit
actually recently.
But it's always funny at thestart of the project it's like,
okay, cool, you know.
Like this is the everyone knowswhat's what.
Like this is the scheme.
And then we go away, test somestuff individually and come back
(13:16):
and we've just got, you know,completely different concepts
for the same thing.
And then we kind of slowlybring it it together over time.
Is that kind of similar for youguys, or do you do like a lot
of like initial sketchingtogether, or what's your, what's
your design process?
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I think, like like the last thing we've been
designing, we we actually spentquite a long time on site, like
it might have been, um, or theywere there for two days and
spent like a good chunk of timeon the site and actually like
walking through the choreographythat we could imagine and then
sketching live.
That's cool, yeah, so likereally using the site to inform
(13:59):
the To draw it out.
Yeah, and that kind of likestarts to form your bubble
diagrams and so we're doing thattogether and then we might both
go away and sketch a plan eachthat reflects that.
But they're probably like,they're probably relatively
similar, and then it's just kindof turning and throwing and
finessing.
Oh yeah, we're trying to spendmore time sketching before we
(14:22):
get into software.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Yeah yeah, that makes sense and so that's like
perspectives and, um, you know,elevations and and whatever you
can probably quite a lot ofplanning.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
Even just to spell it out in terms of how we what we
might be doing, it's when we'reon site where the question might
be where's the natural point ofentry to the house?
And then something we do quiteoften is at the point of entry
divides the house into publicand a private part of the house,
and for the public part we'retrying to think about how the
entry can make it intuitive togo to the public part of the
(14:59):
house, and then the private partis more likely to be obvious
only to people that live thereevery day.
When Thomas and I go away andstart sketching, we might have
already established that aspectof the bubble diagram.
It's like here's where we'regoing to do the living and
here's where you're going torest.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
And I guess, like view shafts and lighting play
into that quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
It's like giving someone a taste of say there's
an amazing view, giving someonea taste of the view, like it
might be a little sliver, andthen you're turning them 180
degrees away from it and then Iguess a lot of Japanese
architecture have the sameprinciples.
Where you're, it feels likeyou're really dragging out the
(15:47):
entry experience.
It's so different to a lot ofKiwi homes where you just open
the front door and you're in.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, there's like a white.
You're facing like a white wallor something.
Speaker 4 (15:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
A blank wall and some shoes.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Are you like it does?
It's all part of the experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And do you guys do uh much like model making at that
stage or anything as part ofyour process, or do you kind of
like take that and then bring itinto uh software of some
description and start just kindof adding those layers?
Speaker 5 (16:16):
yeah, yeah, like quite a bit of um.
So we use archicad, which Iguess thomas and I have both
been in it for like 10 years, soit's like quite easy software
for us to use.
And, yeah, I guess it's just, asyou know, like the detail
progressively builds up but likethe early concept modeling is
like quite elemental and we aretrying to think about like even
(16:39):
in the last year to six months,we've been trying to think a lot
more about how we're bringinglight and it's almost like
bringing light into the buildingbut then also like creating
spaces that have more likemoodiness and, uh, darkness, I
guess.
But yeah, it's uh, probably ourprocess would be like get the
(17:01):
plan good, test how that plan isgoing and come back to the plan
to see if there's certain movesthat aren't kind of like
working that well in 3d, butthey are in plan and it's like
that constant, like refinementof um, yeah, trying to generate
ultimately a building.
But it's like, yeah, I feellike sometimes there can be a
(17:22):
conflict and like we'replanning's working well, but the
actual 3D and the experience isgood, and so we spend quite a
bit of time going back and forthjust trying to refine and
iterate and tick in as manyboxes as we can.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Do you kind of have, I guess, from spending so much
time on site.
Does that kind of give you afeeling for what kind of
materials would work well withthe project at that kind of
early stage, or is that is thatkind of developed as well a
little bit over time?
Or do you just kind of stickwith stuff that you've
(17:56):
potentially used in the pastthat you know works, or that's
quite.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
That's quite a topical question, ben.
Like we're still trying to findout a way with the materiality.
Like it's um.
Like for me, designingbuildings that have a
relationship to their context isreally important.
So, like, I'm not sure if thisis the same for you guys, but
like you, you can, you'll havelike your own reference points
(18:20):
and then you'll have clientreference points for what they,
what they like um, and thenyou've got the site and what
feels appropriate and then kindof like natural, like material
materials on hand.
So you're trying to find theoverlap of all those things.
Typically, we have a prettygood idea of what sort of
material we're looking at earlyon, and then it's about refining
(18:41):
it.
Um, I think if you're in astage where you've got a design
and you're trying to work outwhat to clad it on is, I feel
like you're in a slightlydangerous position, because it
was like the materiality shouldbe a fundamental aspect of the
design.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I find that I I always get kind of bored with
what I've been using.
Perhaps I've used it a few toomany times, I don't know, and so
like just constantly trying tofind it doesn't even need to be
that different, just somethingthat I don't know how to explain
it when something's like notquite ticking the boxes anymore.
(19:18):
But yeah, you're not sure whatto switch to.
I guess what's what's?
Speaker 4 (19:23):
what are you thinking of?
Speaker 2 (19:24):
no, just like in I in general, the use of, for
example, timber or brick oranything that's like super
common without the iron.
I just find, like you know, youalways come back to those three
or four or whatever and thenit's kind of hard to find
something and that kind of leadsyour design a little bit too
(19:47):
much because you know thedetails perhaps a little bit too
well.
So it's always reallyinteresting to hear people that
use a new, unique, clean, nice,yeah, different materials,
x-penny materials.
Well, that's the, that's thething you know.
Like, if you two, if you guyswere to design your own house
(20:08):
for yourselves, I guess, likewould you be using a lot of the
same details, and let's justassume that we're, like you know
, five years into business oryou know something, we're not
super, not not down the trackwhen you know I'm sure you guys
will do very, be very, verysuccessful, but you know what I
mean like first homeowner status, would you kind of be designing
(20:31):
a house using a lot of yourdetails or do you think that you
could find a way to kind ofrefine a lot of them to be used
at that level?
Speaker 3 (20:41):
yeah, I think.
So I think maybe not the Canyou?
Speaker 4 (20:44):
use an expensive material cheap as opposed to a
cheap material to look expensive.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
I guess it's more the design anyway.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Yeah, I think the base principles of good
proportions, well-balanced roomsand volume, those things don't
necessarily have to be superexpensive.
But then it's another thing.
To clear everything in stoneit's a different story.
(21:10):
So it'd be the same taking thesame principles or not having
skirtings and full height doors,that sort of thing.
So, yeah, taking a few cues butnot being able to afford the
full shebang.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
Everyone has a budget constraint at some point.
I think a big part ofarchitecture is people are like
oh, we can't do that becauseit's too expensive.
In my mind, there's a millionways of achieving, let's say,
these monolithic,stonehenge-like qualities with a
range of materials.
I kind of like the idea of abig.
In my head.
I'm just imagining one of thosemega monolith buildings, but
(21:49):
all in everything's galvcorrugate Loving simple galv
corrugate these days.
Beautiful New Zealand,contextualised material Like
Glen Merkitt, using simplematerials in beautiful ways.
I think that's always been thestrength of architecture being
able to play your own game atdifferent financial scales.
(22:13):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
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Speaker 2 (22:53):
One thing I've always been impressed with with you
guys is just that supercleanliness.
Going back to the form and thematerial, how have you gone
about learning how to detailsome of that stuff?
Because I've spent a lot of mygood part of my life with
(23:13):
details and, man, some of thatstuff just blows my, my mind.
I have no idea how you do it orhow you'd even go about doing
it.
So well done there.
But what is what's the kind ofstrategy when you kind of you
come across something thatperhaps is a little bit unique
or you really want to like keepbecause it's like such a big
part of the design.
You know, how do you kind ofwork through those, those
(23:36):
details and keep them?
The right intention, I guess.
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Thanks, ben, that's the best thing to say, I guess.
When we're like the assembly ofthe buildings, I guess it
contributes so much to theatmosphere and sometimes it
could even be like the absenceof complexity.
But you know, just the buildingfeeling really simple but
accomplishing that can be quitechallenging, definitely, yeah,
(24:04):
recently we had a um.
I've probably got two examplesof like just something that we
put a lot of effort into butthere may be not that many
people would care about, butperhaps most people that go into
the building would appreciateit.
So we did a hair salon that'sgot 100mm by 100mm tile across
(24:26):
the whole flooring but then whenyou factor in the grout join
it's like a module of 105 by 105.
We basically set out the whole,like every element in the
building, to that floor tilemodule and, uh, like, I think
for the builder on site it wasprobably a little bit
frustrating.
(24:46):
We, we told them it was almostlike we gave them the license to
so that, like they, they mighthave had 30 millimeters or 40
millimeters of margin to shiftthings around so that they
aligned with modules.
But it was like, just likeputting that level of effort
into something that was likebecause it was such a simple
like interior fit out.
That almost was the design Like.
(25:08):
You could definitely arguethere's some other things we did
in there as well, but it waslike, just like I guess I'd call
it like a rigor and anattention to detail that I'd say
made the project better, butlike.
The second example is like wehad on this small-ish renovation
in Kandala.
We were talking to Nina aboutlike doing a 250mm wide
(25:32):
floorboard versus a 300mm widefloorboard and then working out
what alignments we're trying toaccomplish in terms of how a
full module of the floorboard umlike aligns with walls and
things like that.
And like the island for thekitchen, like is that a meter?
Because it's, you know, yeah,like that kind of stuff.
Um, and it was, yeah.
(25:54):
We just asked nina it's like,is this up?
Like are we being?
Like, is this crazy to you thatwe're putting like this effort
in?
She said that she's seen itbefore at some of the european
practices that she's worked at.
Um, but yeah, like, thomas,would you have?
Like it's not just alignmentsthat we're focusing on, but it
is that's awesome though.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
I love to hear it.
I love I can imagine the floorguy installer was pretty stoked
with that.
But super cool though supercool.
Speaker 3 (26:23):
Yeah, and even just like the floorboard examples,
because it would be an easypathway for us is just to
specify.
Let's say it's 250, right, butthen our second guessing whether
it's 250 or 300 is basicallywe're trying to work out if the
space can handle a 300, likeproportionally, or if it would
(26:44):
feel weird because it's just toowide, and so that's like,
that's also what's going throughour heads in that, in that
conversation.
So, yeah, what's like what'sgoing to feel right or is it
going to feel jarring?
Yeah, so yeah, alignments andspacing and like volume, like we
, yeah, we, we kind ofinterrogate quite a bit, like
this overall proportion of aroom gets interrogated quite a
(27:06):
bit.
And then the details, like, asyou know, again it's like it is,
it is iteration, like andworking with the builders to
iterate, iterate the detail and,um, yeah, as long as you're
kind of communicating what theintent is and you've got good
builders, then like it is a goodand good engineers, like it's a
yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Do you use like any kind of like early contractor
involvement and that sort ofthing just to like help with
some of those tricky details aswell?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
We've had quite a few like a few clients who've had
builders either they've been thebuilder or builder as family
members.
So through the nature of thisearly contractor engagement,
eastbourne yeah, eastbourneHouse was called the builder.
He was the builder.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
He's a really good builder.
By the looks of that house likeit's super crispy.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Yeah, he's done a good job yeah, like the one's
like where all the walls arefull boards, um.
Yeah, it's like a two mil gap,um.
But I think early contractorI'm a fan of generally, because
you're just getting kind ofearly buy-in, you're not having
(28:22):
a tender, the builder is such animportant part of the team and
the engineers and the servicesengineers or other consultants
you're kind of rounding out thatteam early on and are working
towards the same goal, which isgood, yeah, and I can imagine
you apply the same or similarprinciples to a lot of your like
(28:44):
internal joinery, for example.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
your houses really seem like almost like a bit of
furniture where it's kind oflike design.
The inside is kind of in such,in such I don't know
well-balanced, harmonious, youknow, environment that it kind
of feels like it's just oneobject as opposed to I don't
know, perhaps something withlike an interior designer or
(29:09):
something I don't know yeah.
So I guess like yeah, you mustkind of put a lot of effort into
a lot of your internal joineryand the actual fit out as well
yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
And same same ideas of rhythm and even spacing of of
cabinetry doors and, yeah, likeon the same, that same project
that james was talking aboutwith the floorboards.
You know, trying to work out afarm, like we're basically like
saying throughout the house thatyou don't have to have a high
toe kick.
Say, you've got a whole bank ofjoinery and the doors are 10
(29:41):
mils off the ground, or are they20 mils off the ground?
And then what's your toe kickin the kitchen, trying to bring
that down as minimal as youcould without meaning you stub
your toe every time you open adrawer.
So yeah, kind of diving intoall of those things the toe
kicks quite satisfying.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
I wonder if we can circle all the way back right to
the the beginning, interestedto know at what stage you guys
were working and then, like, didyou guys found a project
together or something like thefirst client that sort of
launched it together, and whatwas that sort of the case and
what sort of what were yourinitial projects that kept you
off?
Speaker 5 (30:20):
at my end.
Um, I was like I think I justum, I was maybe like 31 or 32
when we started bring chicken.
Just yeah, yeah, um and uh, Iwas like, oh, if you want to
start an architecture practice,it's probably harder to do when
you're 40.
So I was just like, oh, it's agood time to start in terms of
(30:43):
time of life, but it wasn't agreat time to start in terms of
we didn't actually have projects.
Speaker 4 (30:50):
So you started without a project.
Speaker 5 (30:53):
We started with maybe like a month's worth of work
ahead of us that's a lot of workin there.
It's in like two weeks work andit was, I think it was um, but
like, so there's that in thebackground, it's like oh, it
makes sense to start anarchitecture practice, and
probably that was my thing waslike I think architecture is
(31:17):
like quite a cool profession ifit's their own business yeah a
different profession, um, toworking for someone else, I'd
say.
But like there's you knowdownsides of that in terms of,
um, managing pressure andresponsibility and whatnot.
Uh yeah, so thomas and I we wedid a cafe at Wellington Airport
together as like a private jobwhen we were at our previous
(31:38):
firm.
That was like probably likesome of the ideas we're
interested in we were testingthere.
It's almost like just beenaspirational in terms of what
we're trying to do on theproject and what we're signing
up for.
So on that one, we wanted to doaged brass, but no one was
(32:00):
going to make it easy for us todo aged brass, so we ended up
aging the brass ourselves acrossthe whole project Nice, like in
your garage or something.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
No, how long did that take Out on the back lawn, I
think probably that's like aweek's worth of free labor to
make it happen.
Nice.
That's what it's about, man.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Yeah, yeah, and it's like when we walked past there.
Now it's like check in to seehow it's patina-ing.
Actually, I'm pretty happy Goodaging going on.
Yeah, so we actuallyaccelerated the, the aging.
But what's kind of interestingis like there's the parts of the
um like fit out that arewearing through and it's getting
(32:45):
like that natural polish thathappens from like use, rubbing
away some aging and it goes abit more like brass Shiny, but
like that's quite a specificexample and not very good like
story about how we started.
Nah.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
I think it's a real story of how you started.
Speaker 5 (33:07):
Yeah, it's like humble beginnings.
Speaker 4 (33:10):
Yeah, I think everyone starts off like that
and get on, even with Ben andWarren in the studio.
You guys, how much free labordid you do?
Speaker 5 (33:19):
House for free People are super grateful for that
kind of stuff, though Half thetime.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
And didn't you plant a thousand trees?
Your head?
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
Well, I've also done a ginormous amount of free labor
.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Yeah, the piccolo as well, I know probably it's not
sustainable right too manypassion projects.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Well, we have a vision and yeah, push for it,
which is, yeah, part of whatgets us going up, get going in
the morning yeah what are?
Speaker 3 (33:52):
your thoughts.
Thomas, you're saying something.
No, no, I was just gonna say,um, yeah, we're probably like.
The learning in the first threeyears was, uh, was enormous,
and we did like, we did do a lot, of, a lot of different
projects and small, small ones,and then we got a.
Um, we got a, we got contactedby richard for the eastbourne
(34:16):
house and that and that was ourkind of big break.
The caveat there was it justhad to be done extraordinarily
quickly, so I think it was likesix months from coming into the
office to being on site, andthat included a resource consent
and building consent obviously.
But yeah, that kind of thatgave us like the experience and
(34:37):
the taste of doing um, higherend homes, and then it's, it's
kind of been like iterating fromfrom there with what feels like
quite a hiatus of the work, butit's just, the projects are
taking longer to finish.
Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, but you I mean you guys have been in a bunch of
publications like design andlocal project and the cover of
the financial times, which isquite spectacular, and you've
won a bunch of awards.
Is that your kind of mainstrategy for marketing now?
Is it kind of like, now thatyou've kind of got a couple of
(35:17):
really successful projects, isit starting to speak for itself?
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Like you said.
No, I think it's always good topush the work out there and you
need to know where it lands andwho picks it up.
But we're also we're relativelystrategic around what work
we're trying to get, and thenit's like who do we need to meet
to get that work?
Speaker 2 (35:41):
Is that how you got on the cover of the Financial
Times?
Speaker 3 (35:46):
No, that was out of the blue, really.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
So cool.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
That was out of the blue.
Speaker 2 (35:51):
How'd that happen?
Speaker 3 (35:53):
We actually contacted Jessica Bell, who wrote the
article, contacted us about apiece for wallpaper which I
think we're still doing, but,like the, they work a year in
advance, so they're notpublishing until early next year
.
Oh cool.
And then, and then she said,but.
And then, like a few weekslater, she said, oh, there's
(36:15):
this other piece in theFinancial Times.
Can you, you know, can we havea chat about it?
So we did that, and then, goodtarget market for you.
I can imagine I think the likethe coolest thing for us was
just being like sittingalongside those other architects
yeah, architects that you, youknow we like Herbst, and who
(36:37):
else was it?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Pattersons, Ferran Hay, Ferran Hay, I mean like
that's really cool and reallyimpressive, I would say yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
Yeah, nice work.
I think, like it is, it'sprobably like a balance between
the work, and then Jessica Bellactually follows us on Instagram
, so, like, like there's.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Instagram can be quite helpful, can't it?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Yeah, can be quite a helpful tool.
We get some business coachingcool, so like there is, like
there is a bit of strategy kindof in the background.
Speaker 4 (37:11):
When I look at you guys, like probably the most
strategic office that I can see,I think like I've watched that
strategy because, for those whodon't know, me and Thomas were
in the same class.
Me and Thomas were in the samegroup in fifth year.
I've had a close eye on oldThomas for years, always had a
(37:31):
very nice aesthetic Right fromday one.
I think the intention ofputting out beautiful work,
beautiful renders I guess basedon the theory you get the work
you're seen doing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, butseeing that sort of coming all
the way through and it seemsvery strategic, it's incredibly
clever and it seems to startpaying off.
(37:52):
At what point did you start tolook into the business coaching
side of things?
Because I think we come out ofschool and yet with no real
knowledge on how to run abusiness work for somebody.
Then you go give it a go andyou're like it's quite a bit to
this.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Yeah it's pretty key not to answer your question with
the question, but like um, whatdo you like with?
What do you guys think aboutwith your own businesses?
Like I feel, like inarchitecture and maybe like the
art world as well, trying to runa profitable business is almost
like some kind of selling outor compromise, like something
(38:30):
our business coach said to us islike you kind of need if you
don't have profit in yourbusiness.
Like you're not, yeah, you'renot going need if you don't have
profit in your business.
Like you're not, um, yeah,you're not going to be around
that's what the point of thebusiness is to make money.
So the business coach.
He came to us from like aclient saying hey, we like they,
(38:50):
they had a digital um like they, basically like they build
websites, but they also do somelike graphic design, and I think
when they started out, they hadlike this kind of before and
after moment of getting abusiness coach who really just
helped them with the businessside of what they did, and it
was just kind of basic stuffthat they hadn't really been
(39:12):
exposed to before was my readingof it, and so I think, yeah, I
I'd say like making sure youinvoice all your hours or
something what sort
Speaker 4 (39:21):
of basic what sort of basic things are we giving the
people?
Speaker 5 (39:24):
I suspect, is what like strategy or planning or
it's um well, like a simple onewould be um like how many
billable hours do you need to doa week to um break even, or you
know, keep track of youroverheads, and then I mean this
stuff's second nature to them,but do you need to do a week to
break even, or you?
Know.
Set a target, Keep track ofyour overheads.
I mean, this stuff's secondnature to them, but not for the
likes of myself another onewould be um, in terms of, uh
(39:50):
like supply and demand, do yousay, do you want to be a
practice with?
Do we want to be a practicewith three people?
Um, and like good work, or dowe say yes to like all the
projects that come our way andhave like six staff but like a
portion of that work is likereally challenging um from a
business perspective andprobably like a work life
(40:10):
satisfaction point of view.
That's part of our strategy isto like um, get, get good work.
That like maybe like just ticksthree boxes, which is like um,
it's like excitingarchitecturally.
Uh, the clients are good towork with.
And then the other one would belike there's like realistic
(40:31):
kind of like compensation, butlike yeah, and do they influence
your kind of marketing strategyat all?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
one thing that's kind of noticeable with you guys is
you do kind of use a lot ofrenders, I guess, to like
capture your target audience,which is a great strategy and I
think works really well, because, especially for you guys, like
it'd be very difficult to geteverything that you're designing
perhaps built or, like you weresaying before tom, it would
(41:03):
take a long period of time andlike the renders are just a way
to kind of bring that forward alittle bit definitely, I think,
what we'd like to get to thepoint where you only see built
work until then.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
Yeah, the renders are like it's a good way to
communicate what we're workingon to then, you know, help push
the flywheel but also maybedemonstrate the ideas that we
have within the practice.
Yeah, and I think I've alsobeen quite flexible with like
what clients need.
So one of the projects on thereis for a client who's overseas,
(41:37):
like lives overseas, but doessignificant work here, and so
it's like an exercise of um,showing how what we could do,
and then that kind kind ofgenerates like a possibility of
work and then like opens thenetwork up as well.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah, and must help with that.
You know the magazines andother bits and pieces.
Speaker 4 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah, I remember there was the
Australian, Dave Sharp.
There was an episode I rememberlistening to, maybe six months
ago, a practice that was quiteyoung, and they splashed out a
few bit of cash on renders toget all that up there and then I
think in that episode that paidoff quite well for that
(42:21):
practice.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
Is that?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
sort of the case of you guys.
Are you sort of outsourcingyour renders?
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Yeah, outsourcing them, and it's actually quite
good like it closes the loop forus, like we're, because we can
see the designs in a reallyrealistic way, so like it's
almost like a, an educationaltool as well, so we can see how
those ideas translate into whatlike almost as close as you
could get to real life, so howhow the light might operate,
(42:48):
what is like that space feellike, or that proportion, that
materiality does that changeyour mind at all?
Speaker 4 (42:57):
on renders you know, gerard has never posted a render
yeah, I've gone the oppositeapproach of only showing it work
, like I think, like you guyshave.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
I've been very uh strict on strategy, but maybe in
a slightly way for myself maybetoo strict in my my process,
but now that now I've beenenjoying the process yeah, now
that I think about it, though, II clearly know what you know,
seabard ross as a firm is allabout really, whether that's you
(43:30):
know through some of theirbuilt work, or or your, your
renders, or whatnot.
But, gerard, I think you'relike I've seen a lot of your
work behind the scenes and likethe the front of your company
does not show remotely thatyou're actually working on.
So I don't know, man, I'm notconvinced.
(43:51):
I think I think I like therender strategy for sure.
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Yeah, you know I've?
Uh yeah, because me and connortalked about this at length over
the years and that was sort ofhe's also the worst person to
ask because he's just as bad asyou are yeah, we've built
ourselves into this littlecorner of obscurity, but this is
(44:16):
the benefit of life, isn't it?
You go through things and it's.
I am changing my mind as we goon, so I think we might start
cracking up to renders a bitmore as we go.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I think that projection and I think now
there's enough buildings thatare believable as built outcomes
yeah, we definitely pivotbetween, like wanting to be a
bit obscure and then, um, likeout there.
Yeah, it's something we're likewe discuss constantly.
(44:48):
It's like how much, how mucheffort do you put into getting
your name out there versus what?
Speaker 4 (44:54):
And you're like 100%.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Do people like discovering someone who's like a
bit of an enigma?
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Have you guys paid for marketing at all?
Speaker 5 (45:07):
Didn't you do AdWords ?
We tried.
We did test Google AdWords.
We tried.
We did test Google AdWords, yes, for a week.
Yeah yeah, got a call askinglike is this Warren Armani?
They clicked on the wrongnumber.
Hey, it's putting you in theright spot then, yeah, but it
(45:29):
was from a tradie asking forlike a um color speak, or no,
that's like I still get phonecalls from makers every week, I
reckon, and I like I can seeit's from wellington.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
So I'm just like, straight away, I'm like is this
for makers?
Speaker 4 (45:47):
yeah, yeah I still get people asking me if you're
at makers, are you not at makersagain?
Speaker 2 (45:57):
and so this episode is brought to you by beer
architecture and beerconstruction tom, you also do a
lot of photography and you guysalso did some furniture design
with.
Was it wood, wood right, wasn'tit?
Which was amazing Really, Idon't know.
I guess really similar to yourarchitecture aesthetic, super
(46:19):
clean and, yeah, really nice.
Is that kind of all just funpassion projects as well, or
does it kind of tie into thearchitecture at all?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
It definitely ties into the architecture.
Like it was a bit of achallenge for us to design
something of that scale, likemuch smaller chair, which is
probably arguably the one of thehardest things to design, and
we we learned a lot through thatprocess.
But yeah, we're pretty keen tohave the furniture as a like
constant bread running throughdo you specify it into your
(46:51):
buildings?
rad's always trying to do we, um, I don't know if you guys are
the same, but sometimes you getsick of seeing your own stuff.
So, yeah, we, we probably wentthrough like an initial phase
where it was, it was in a fewthings, but now, yeah, now we
like we're not gravitatingtowards it as much doesn't it
mean you just need to designsomething?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
something else yeah, you need more of a selection
can't find I've done thesethings yeah, I had thought about
that, gerard.
Speaker 5 (47:21):
Like, what would the like?
Revision two of, like the chairwe designed to be, and even for
the table as well?
Um, I think there might be.
It's just that next round oflike trying to make it 10 better
or something.
Yeah, that probably does alignwith our design philosophy.
Is like not every project is umtrying to like differentiate
(47:43):
too much from something we'vedone in the past.
It might actually borrow theideas that we thought were good
job.
When you're doing yourfurniture, what's the thinking
there?
Is it like, do you see that asarchitecture or is it just yeah,
100 um, definitely architecture.
Speaker 4 (47:57):
I've always thought it was like mini architecture.
I've also.
The whole intention behind theworkshop was like architecture
research, those generally.
I mean you lose track of itfrom time to time and then you
circle back trying to exploreideas that you could upscale or
downscale, just playing withdesign.
(48:21):
But I also have like a millionideas, so it's like um, there's
just a million chairs I want tobuild.
I had a business advisor personfor a little bit and they said
I should stop making chairscatch up yeah, you can't look
for a new business advisor?
Speaker 5 (48:41):
was he not saying there's like good money in
prototypes?
Speaker 2 (48:45):
endless prototypes.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I have a habit of just having an idea that I'm
trying to explore, irrespectiveof client or no client, so
always find yourself down in theworkshop thinking about
something and being like, ohshit, I brought all these
materials and now I've wastedtwo days of potential billable
labor yeah, yeah, but you'vesatisfied your ideas yeah, yeah
(49:12):
it's.
I find it very hard to regretthese things.
Yeah, maybe my bank accountwill help me do that I don't
know.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
Some of the ideas that you got coming out sound
pretty interesting.
I don't know if the we can talkabout those yet, though can we
watch the space, space, watchthis space.
So what's on the cards forSandbar and Ross?
You guys flat out, or?
Speaker 3 (49:37):
We're like busy enough.
It's kind of a I don't know ifyou guys are the same, but it's
like if everything goes live,then you're way too busy and you
need to hire more people.
Or if everything stops, thenlike you're way too busy and
need to hire more people, or ifeverything stops, then you're in
trouble.
Yeah, so we're kind of like weprobably are right always to the
(49:57):
remit fine line yeah, yeah, butno, like we've got some yeah,
some really exciting stuff.
And then some like projects thathave like long, long tales,
like a.
And then some projects thathave long tails, like a heritage
restoration, renovation andremodeling, which we've been
(50:18):
working on for I think it's afew years now, but that's only
just on site, so that's stillgot a long Cool.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
We're already ahead of it At least it made it to
site that one.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
It's positive.
Speaker 3 (50:32):
Yeah, it is yeah, but yeah, no, we're feeling
optimistic and yeah, it seemslike the market overall starts
to rebound a bit.
Talking to a few architects,it's a little bit doom and gloom
out there.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, it's funny times.
Yeah, Very strange times yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:52):
How about Bit flat at the moment, isn't it?
Speaker 3 (50:55):
Yeah, is that the same with the property side, Ben
?
Speaker 2 (50:58):
It's definitely flat with the property side.
But yeah, I'm always optimistic.
Hopefully it's kind of startingto creep up a little bit.
Now it feels better up here butin Auckland I'm not sure about
Wellington's always kind of lagsa year or so behind.
But yeah, I think things arecreeping up.
(51:18):
I'm trying to buy a house atthe moment and there's a lot of
people trying to buy the samehouses.
There must be people out therepurchasing.
Speaker 4 (51:26):
I wonder if, to a nice sort of sum up, I feel like
a lot of us who start officesand are battling away in a one
to two to three person teamdon't often see or I don't know,
you don't see the background orwhat anybody else is going
through.
So I wonder if you could likerun through some of your sort of
(51:50):
bigger tips that you've foundthrough your process that kind
of kept you going and kept thework coming or kept you excited
about moving forward bigquestion.
Speaker 3 (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, um, something I think I care a lot
about is brand.
So like not doing anything tojeopardize the brand, like if
you, as soon as you start tojeopardize that, then your
options, I think, become quitelimited.
So that's something that we'vebeen like very careful of and
(52:20):
like we've also made our ownmistakes in that regard that
we've learned from like, yeah,probably being like quite
curated with what you show,investing in good photography,
so, yeah, it makes a bigdifference.
Speaker 4 (52:33):
Do you find there's like those approaches, there's a
large dose of persistencethat's required, yeah yeah,
which I feel pays off, butsometimes you really have to
remind yourself what you'redoing.
Speaker 3 (52:46):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's why, personally, I've
enjoyed having these two of usoff, but sometimes you really
have to remind yourself whatyou're doing.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's why,like, like, personally, I've
enjoyed having, like there's twoof us.
So you know there is likeyou're, you're kind of in the
trenches together.
It's a nice way to balance it,balance it out.
What about you?
Speaker 5 (53:02):
james, I think something that we've, um, that's
been like quite helpful for usis we catch up with it maybe
three or four architects thathave their own companies and
they're kind of like in their60s and they've been like really
helpful for just like checkingin on different questions that
feel fresh to us.
But they might have dealt withlike 20 or 30 times.
That's been.
That's been quite helpful andwe probably like tried to seek
(53:25):
out some of those people wedidn't know before we started.
We sought them out and theywere just generous with their
time.
So I think there's been a realbenefit in that, because maybe
some of their advice has been inthat persistence kind of camp
of just saying if you canestablish a brand that people
see value working with, thenthese other things kind of come
(53:49):
like good projects come.
You know people want to pay foryour like skill set, I guess,
and your work.
So it's like, yeah, thesecheck-ins that like I guess,
like we, I think we've maybe afew years ago we were just like
light on work when, like I thinkthere were a few others in that
camp.
The whole world was light onwork when, like I think there
were a few others in that campthe whole world was light on
(54:10):
work yeah, but it was like likepart of what we did was we used
the time that we, like we hadtime where we didn't have
projects to work on and so we'd,like you know, did invest in.
Like well, like we either overdelivered on the projects that
we had or invested in ideas.
So the furniture collaborationwasn't really about money for us
(54:33):
.
It was about just trying torefine something and put as much
work in as was required for usto be proud of it.
That kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (54:40):
Everything didn't need to like an earlier
conversation, didn't need tostack up financially, but it was
viewed as an investment in thefuture, I think that's something
I see in you guys that you'rehappy to spend internal
investment for the future gain,which I think everyone could
learn from a little bit.
Thanks for coming on, guys.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (55:02):
Awesome watching you guys over the years and I think
it's going to be cool to seewhere you guys go.
Speaker 2 (55:06):
For sure, we're rooting for you.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Thank you, thanks for having us.
Yeah, must work with thepodcast.
Speaker 4 (55:16):
It's bloody brilliant .
Thanks.
It's a bloody good podcast,isn't it?
Thank you.
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