Feel Good, Look Good: Performance vs Aesthetics in Architecture

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What happens when award-winning architects and builders challenge the notion that sustainable, high-performance buildings must sacrifice aesthetics? This thought-provoking conversation brings together Passive House experts who are transforming New Zealand's built environment through buildings that are both beautiful and functional.

Architect Rafe Maclean shares how client feedback about a poorly-performing design prompted his journey into building science, while Joe Lyth reveals the heartbreaking reality of watching his children develop respiratory issues in cold, damp rental properties. Builder Josh Atkins describes his frustration with energy-inefficient new homes that cost homeowners thousands in ongoing expenses. These personal stories highlight why performance isn't just about sustainability—it's fundamentally about health and comfort.

The guests dismantle common misconceptions about high-performance buildings, particularly the idea that Passive House certification requires boxy designs with minimal windows. Through their work, they demonstrate how constraints often generate more creative, thoughtful architecture. As Joe explains, "If you've got a blank canvas you can do anything, and you don't necessarily need to judge all your decisions." The discussion explores how early collaboration between architects, builders and clients allows performance requirements to enhance rather than limit design possibilities.

Perhaps most compelling is their suggestion to shift terminology—referring to conventional construction as "low-performance buildings" rather than elevating better practices as "high-performance." After all, would anyone willingly purchase a "low-performance refrigerator" that might spoil your food? This reframing helps normalize better building standards as baseline expectations rather than premium add-ons.

Ready to experience architecture that looks beautiful and actually works? Subscribe to hear more conversations that challenge convention and inspire better building practices.

Key Links:

• https://www.rafemaclean.co.nz/
• https://www.welarchitecture.nz/
• https://www.compound.co.nz/
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwuFra50HN8
• https://passivehouse.nz/

Chapters:

0:00 - Introduction with expert guests

14:44 - Personal journeys into high-performance building

34:52 - Performance vs aesthetics in design

43:15 - Constraints breed creativity

54:49 - Education and passive house perception

1:01:46 - Architecture education and closing thoughts

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Episode Transcript

Sam Brown (00:00):
This week's episode is brought to you by Parrot Dog,
limited release 27.
This scrumptious coconut stoutis brewed with coconut and cacao
nibs.
Think a liquid bounty barpacked full of coconut and
chocolate with just the rightamount of sweetness.
Nice, welcome back to theDesign Principles Podcast.
Ben and Gerard are on a breakthis week.

(00:21):
Instead, I am joined byaward-winning architect Rafe
McLean of Rafe McLean Architects, jo Leith, founder of Well
Architecture and chairman of thePassive House Institute of New
Zealand, and Josh Atkins,director of Compound Builders
and owner of Green Home of theYear 2025.
These esteemed guests providesome serious insight into the
realm of performance andaesthetics.

(00:42):
Let's dive in.
Thank you very much fordeciding to come onto the pod,

(01:04):
joe, josh and Rafe.
It's awesome to have you guyshere to chat.
It actually stems from Joe,your message to me saying we
should have a chat aboutperformance versus aesthetics or
performance versus design, andhow they try and debunk maybe a
few common misconceptions orfrustrations that we have as
designers, and Josh yourself asa homeowner and builder who

(01:27):
operate and will try and operatein that more high performance
realm.
So welcome, all Lovely to haveyou here.
If you guys wouldn't mind, rafe, I'll just take a sip of wine.
I might start with you.
Quick intro for those who maynot know you, although you're
pretty well known, would begreat.
And then we'll just go Rafe,joe, and then Josh, and then we

(01:48):
can crack into it.

Rafe Maclean (01:49):
Sure, yeah, rafe McLean.
I'm an architect based inWanaka, been in practice for
I've been in practice for about20 years now and, yeah, really
into really good architecturethat looks really good and feels
good.
I came across Passive Houseabout 12 years ago now, I think,
and upskilled myself and slowlymoved down to my work and now

(02:15):
we're doing quite a fewcertified Passive Houses and we
do thermal modeling for ourprojects now.
So, yeah, it's a really goodtopic that we're talking about
today.

Joe Lyth (02:23):
I'm Joe Joe Lyth.
I wear a few different hats, soI'm a director of Well
Architecture, which is my newfirm.
I said that last year.
We do what I think is beautifularchitecture that balances
budget with buildability andalso performance as well.
I'm also the chair of thePassive House Institute in New
Zealand, so try my hand atgovernance, which is

(02:43):
entertaining.
And then I also I teach thehomestar, or I'm one of the
teachers on the homestardesigner course for new zealand
group building council.
I'm also a dad to three crazykiwis and a husband to sarah um,
and a yorkshireman through andthrough, despite moving away
from yorkshire, god, 15 yearsago or something, um, we got to
new zealand in 2016 to travelfor a few months, um, and then

(03:05):
got sucked into this beautifulcountry, um, and had some kids
who got sick because of thehouses they were living in.
So then we kind of deep divedinto building performance what
is a healthy building, how weget to it, um, and yeah,
suddenly I'm here, which is abit of a crazy journey.

Josh Atkins (03:21):
Yeah, I'm Josh, director of Compound Builders
down in Queenstown.
I've been down here for 11years of my building career and,
yeah, started Compound afternot sure exactly, but dove into

(03:41):
the world of high-performance,energy-efficient buildings and
passive house and that'sessentially what we do.
We've got myself and two othersin the team now certified
passive house builders.
I built Homestar with you, sam,and yeah, I'm just really into

(04:03):
high performance, energyefficiency and how that is
brought to the built environmentand managing that with budget
and, obviously, design of thearchitects.

Sam Brown (04:16):
And also a homeowner and builder of Home Green Home
of the Year right.

Josh Atkins (04:21):
Oh yeah, that's right.
Yeah, homeowner with mybrothers, we own a house that
I'm putting in, that we builtand was team green architects
and that was modelled and wouldbe about low energy passive
house, but I wasn't certified.
And, yeah, about two and a halfyears we've got a five kilowatt

(04:44):
solar system and we are netpositive in terms of our
consumption and exporting backto the grid, Still winning
financially in terms of power,but I think the power companies
are starting to bump those ratesup.
So, yeah, I guess our return oninvestment is just getting
better and better.

Sam Brown (05:03):
Joe, you touched on how your kids got sick and so
you wanted them to live in ahealthier home and it sort of
led you down that path.
And josh sort of touched on aswell wanting to live somewhere
warm and dry and um, and thatenergy saving aspect of it be
interesting, just kind of, uh,from your guys' perspectives.
What was it that drew you intothis realm?

(05:27):
New Zealand kind of seems.
Well, it's still relativelyniche, I'd say, but
internationally is far morerecognized.
But what do you think it wasthat drew you into it and why?
What was the big driver?

Josh Atkins (05:42):
Yeah, I don't know.
As I've gotten older and moreinto my building career or just
life, I find I think quitedeeply about things.
I grew up in Christchurch injust this classic villa, so I
kind of experienced what it'slike to be pretty bloody cold,
but never really thought much ofit.

(06:03):
Growing up we were buildingsome really nice houses in
queenstown and then you startliving in one as well.
They're just like noticingpower consumption of houses or
going into bathrooms that arefreezing and brand new houses,
and my mind just started tickingabout like efficiency and

(06:25):
energy efficiency andsomething's impact
environmentally as it's builtand for the rest of its life.
Like plastic doesn't break downor I guess everything kind of
every action has an equal andopposite reaction.
I always think about so as abuilding.

(06:46):
More does it take just to makethat building really not impact
environmentally but also on ourresources for the rest of its
life?
I think about it in mostdecisions I make, like buying a
vehicle.
We buy Toyotas because they'rejust so damn reliable and cheap
to run.
Um.

(07:07):
But then um with the, withhousing, is just building
efficiently so that your homecan maintain even temperature
and be healthy but also just notrequire more and more input, um
, and then that's more time foryourself, more time to put your

(07:28):
effort into other areas.
I'm not like chopping firewoodat night, having to start the
fire in the evening and thenit's too hot, so then I'll open
the door, or like moving around,just like small things like
that, once I start thinkingabout it.
So I got infatuated withpassive house and just the data

(07:48):
around it and design and getspreadsheets and then with with
designers and then the numbersyou can move around based on
window openings and heatingsystems, and then, as I've kind
of progressed, is nowunderstanding that and the costs
involved.
I just don't like the idea ofhaving to do something twice,

(08:11):
like why hate a home more thanonce, or then over and over and
over again, and then why I haveto renovate a house again, why I
have to upgrade it, why notjust do it right once.

Joe Lyth (08:24):
So that's just kind of how I got into it yeah, I mean,
I, I kind of have a similarsort of story, josh.
I mean I grew up in theyorkshire dales in a t's
sandstone farmhouse with an openvictorian range in the kitchen
and, um, you know a fire in theliving room, sort of thing, and
we'd have the fire at night andyou'd be falling asleep and have
to open the door to let theheat out and then sprint up to
your bed where there's ice stillon the inside of the window in

(08:46):
winter, sort of thing.
So, um, I definitely didn'tstart from a performance
perspective at all and thenmoved to london, worked with
several architects uh, downthere, um and then started
studying after working for a fewyears and like the uni I went
to, um was a great balance ofdesign and technical aspects.

(09:07):
So I did two years ofclassicism, so I studied the
orders and Palladio and allsorts of bits and pieces, but
then we also had to do buildingperformance and we had to
understand thermal bridging andwe had to do professional
practice and all of these withinthe same design pathway.
So it was all part of the sameholistic view of the building
project.
And then, yeah, we, we came tonew zealand just to travel for a

(09:28):
bit and then enjoyed it.
I mean, the first, the firsthouse we stayed in was a really
nice old villa and overlookingwestern springs park, and it had
, um, one of those little grillsin the bedroom ceiling and in
winter it got so cold and wetyou could see glow worms in the
roof space above you, which wasa quite an experience and it's
interesting, you know, beingbeing an outsider.

(09:49):
I'm, you know, not originally akiwi and from the uk, um, it's
kind of like a when in rome, youknow, because we learned about
vapor control and thermalbridging in uni, um, and I did
it for years before coming here.
And then you get here and thefirst project I worked on was a
two-story classroom block thathad half a meter square concrete
columns in the corners and it'slike it's a skyscraper.

(10:10):
So we didn't have, you know,earthquakes or anything like
that in the UK to consider, butthere was just no insulation
anywhere.
There was just slab edgesexposed and big lumps of
concrete and steel sailingthrough everything.
And I was just told, oh, that'swhat we do, this is the way we
do it.
And you kind of go oh well, I'mnew here, I'll do what I'm told

(10:41):
to do sort of thing.
But it was.
I mean it was kind of a mid-90sgranny flat, so it was still
single-blazed and pretty poorlyinsulated and it was just awful.
And we had our first child andhad the baby's room and we had a
little ceramic panel heater onthe wall and it would literally
be, you know, on full pelt, andthen you'd take two steps to the

(11:02):
right and it would be 10degrees because all the heat was
just sailing straight out ofthe walls and it was dripping
windows.
So it got to like 10 degrees inwinter with heating on, and
then in summer, I mean we werein a back garden, basically
surrounded by trees and houses,so even if you opened the
windows, there was no airflowand the exterior air was 20, 30

(11:24):
degrees so we were sweltering.
We.
We recorded 36 degrees in thehouse once um, which was just oh
man, baptism of fire,absolutely.
And yeah, we just, we just, andshe was getting really sick and
so, um, she ended up on aninhaler.
And then we had a second childand the same thing was happening
and we just couldn't do itanymore.

(11:44):
You know, lying there at nightlistening to these hacking
coughs that have been going onfor a month, because it's so
cold they just can't shake it,and so I kind of I was like, you
know, I can't do this anymore,and so kind of harked back to
all the stuff I'd learned at uniand then decided to do my
passive house designer, umcertification, go through that
process, um, and it's just arabbit hole.

(12:05):
Once you're down there youcan't get back out again at all
because you just, you know, justrecognize, of course, of course
this makes sense, like why, whydo we not all do this sort of
thing?
So I think, um, you knowthere's a.
I think a lot of people thinkyou're indoctrinated into
passive house, but once youlearn it it's you can't unlearn
that kind of side of things, um.
So so my, my entire drive forthis is health, basically, and,

(12:29):
yes, absolutely energyefficiency and reducing energy
demand and, um, you know, kindof the planet better materials,
lower embodied operationalcarbon.
But it's health, it's people,it's the outcome, it's making
sure things interesting, joe,because I feel, like that's
something that's probably nottalked about or touched on
enough.

Sam Brown (12:47):
You know the focus is always on performance.
You know of the building it'snot often talked about the
condition of the inhabitants.
You know.

Rafe Maclean (12:56):
It's a very hard metric to calculate health.
It is I think you can't measurewhat's the temperature of your
health.
I think you can't measurewhat's the temperature of your
health.

Joe Lyth (13:04):
Yeah, there is a statistic, though, and it's a
bit of a dark one, but houseskill more people in warm
countries than they do in coldcountries, because in a cold
country, you know you're cold,you know, so the houses are
designed to keep you warm.
In a warm country, you're like,ah, I'm a bit chilly, and so it
just kills you over a longerperiod of time, because we just

(13:25):
don't feel like we need toconsider that side of things.
Yeah, sorry about that.
It's not on a light note.
Yeah.

Josh Atkins (13:32):
You know I consider New Zealand being kind of warm,
I guess, compared to the oldharsh wonders of North America.

Sam Brown (13:42):
It's very temperate.

Joe Lyth (13:43):
It's warm, temperate, but even in Northland, according
to all the NIWA data, we arestill in a heating climate,
which means that there are moredays under 20 degrees than over
20 degrees.
So even in our warmest place,we are still technically a
heating climate.
Based on the data.

Sam Brown (13:59):
Rafe?
What brought you into the fold?
What indoctrinated you?

Rafe Maclean (14:02):
Yeah, I think I was about 10 years into my own
practice and we were doing lotsof reasonably good work and I
guess it was getting publishedand so forth.
And I had feedback from oneclient and I've talked about
this before but the feedback wasthat I thought this was going

(14:23):
to be more efficient than it isbecause it's using a lot of
power to be comfortable.
And I took that really quitepersonally because it was a
friend's family, their familyhouse, and the engineer on that
particular project was PaulaHuggins, who is an engineer, a
structural engineer inQueensland, and she was one of

(14:43):
the first Passive Housedesigners in New Zealand
certified Passive Housedesigners and she sort of kept
sort of throwing little hints atme about detailing and stuff
and she said this is what you doin a Passive House.
And I was like I don't evenknow what a Passive House is,
don't bother me about it.
But I think some of those wordssort of stuck in my mind and

(15:03):
after that feedback I thought tomyself, okay, I can do better
than this.
And there was just a slowrealization that the New Zealand
Billing Code is not doing whatit should be doing.
It's just not.
I thought it was, I thought itwas, but it just wasn't.
So I researched all thedifferent ways of improving my
knowledge and Passive House sortof stood out for its I guess

(15:27):
its rigour.
It's just so scientific, it'sall numbers.
There's no waffly sort of tickboxes or anything, it's just.
I really like maths, so thatsort of was a sweet spot for me.
So I went off and did thecourse for a couple of weeks in
Auckland and then slowlyintroduced it into projects like
ear tightness and mechanicalventilation.

Sam Brown (15:48):
Was there like a reluctance from clients to kind
of pick that up initially, orcould you sell it pretty easily?

Rafe Maclean (15:53):
Yeah, definitely a reluctance.
I mean, firstly, no buildersknew how to do anything at that
stage.
Proclima was just coming intothe scene in New Zealand, so
their products were quite sortof new and sort of a bit fancy.
And then there was one I gotthis particular project.
I was asked to do a talk at theArchitecture Designers
Conference in Dunedin and gave atalk about my thoughts and my

(16:19):
education and the passive housethinking and stuff and show them
some details and the PassiveHouse thinking and stuff and
show them some details.
And one of the people on thestand they were selling stuff in
the aisle on the side theirproducts and stuff he saw my
talk and he approached meafterwards and said I've got
this section in Wanaka.
I really like what you talkedabout.

(16:40):
Let's talk more.
And that was a bit above abreakthrough in that that ended
up being the first certifiedpassive house in the South
Island, which house was thatright George House.

Sam Brown (16:54):
Oh.

Rafe Maclean (16:56):
Yeah, so we've done two houses for them now,
both certified the feedback fromclients just on how badly their
building was performing, thatsort of triggered me.
Feedback from clients just onhow badly their building was
performing, that sort oftriggered me.
And then just some lucky breaksgot me into sort of you know,
actually implementing thosethoughts.
And then later we moved toDunedin for children's education

(17:19):
and we were renting houses andtwo of my family members were
asthmatics and we were trying tofind these rental houses and
we'd send them in first and ifthey came back within a minute,
wheezing it was like a no-go.
And there was just so many caseslike that.
So that triggered us to buildour own house down there, and

(17:40):
that was a passive house and theasthma just disappeared.
So you know it's great.
I think it's just buildingscience.

Sam Brown (17:48):
Yeah, it is, but it's so funny hearing you three talk
, and the path that brought meinto it was slightly different.
I think I went traveling for ayear and spent a lot of time in
South America, europe and wentto Antarctica as well and in
that time saw just a huge amountof like receding, like glaciers

(18:09):
, and a lot of environmentalimpact.
And you know, you hear about thebuilding industry being a 40%
contributor to global warmingand a lot of that is in
operational carbon, and so thatkind of like started to lead me
down that path of why and whatcan we do better.
So that's that's how I got toit.
But it's kind of interestinghearing you all talk and about

(18:32):
how, as soon as you've realizedhow beneficial it can be,
there's no turning back.
Basically, and whether it behealth, whether it be like
financial, whether it be likefinancial, whether it be
environmental, it's a lot ofreasons to kind of head down
this path.
What do you think has been andthis is what I'm trying to lead

(18:53):
to here is I'm trying to seguethis into how we can tie this
back to the aesthetic thing.
Because, like, what do youthink has been the reluctance to
picking this up more wholesaleacross the board, particularly
in housing.

Rafe Maclean (19:06):
I think for us it's cost, it's definitely a
premium, to do the best buildingand that's what we say to all
our clients is that we can dothe best building you can
imagine.
It'll be the most comfortable,healthy building you can have.
But then there's budgets, right, yeah, and we're not.

(19:27):
It really feels awkward sayingthat, but we're not a rich
country and building is reallyexpensive.
So we're always trying to findshortcuts to getting people on
the property ladder or gettingpeople into the first home or
retirement place.
And if they can't afford it,you kind of have to turn down
the dollar a bit sometimes andjust do the best you can.

(19:48):
But it's that difficulty of thepriorities and what gives.

Joe Lyth (19:52):
I always find, like, when we were building our house,
um, I designed it so I meanit's a six house, so it's got a
warm roof and we've got this bigroof void up here we can use.
But we had a tiny, tiny budget,um for what we wanted to do.
So I designed it so it wasgoing to be single story and we
um, as a piece of floor we couldtake out to put a staircase in
later so we could have extrabedrooms up here and stuff like

(20:15):
that um.
But the bank required avaluation because we had such a
low deposit and they said I wassorry, it's not going to be
worth what you're going to payto build it.
You have to make it, you haveto give it more bedrooms, make
it, you know, make it, make itlook bigger, give it more
bathrooms and there's all thesekind of like.
That has zero impact on theperformance of the building and
I've had clients who've come tome and said we want to do a

(20:35):
passive house, but the valuationreport says we have to have a
fully tiled bathroom and we haveto have an attached two-car
garage and the subdivisionconsent conditions say we have
to build something at least 150square meters and it has to have
at least two different types ofcladding.
So there's all these impacts onthe priorities that people have
to give to make projectsachievable.

(20:55):
But also, property is profitand property is a vehicle for
wealth.
In New Zealand because oureconomy is basically built on
houses.
There's not much else going ona lot of the time, so they need
to be worth a lot and when yousee valuations it is.
It is the size.
We built the third biggesthouses in the world behind

(21:16):
australia and america.
Um, if we made built them everso slightly smaller, you know
what?
If that fourth bedroom was athird bedroom with a desk in it
and a sofa bed or something likethat for the in-laws, suddenly
that 10 square meters is betterwindows and ventilation system
easily.
So it's kind of simple forms.
You know, a corner is two and ahalf grand per corner when
you're talking to builders.
So rather than popping outwardrobes and all sorts of

(21:39):
things and really complex roofswith gables and gutters and
eaves all over the place, justthink simply.
You know, and if you can't makethat beautiful and simple, then
we're designers, we're, that'sour job.

Sam Brown (21:50):
But in saying that as well, joe and Rafe, I'd say
that you've been a greatproponent of that, like you've
made not even necessarily simplearchitecture, but just
architecture in general.
I'd say some of the forms thatyou've developed in your
projects aren't particularlysimple, but they're still
achieving this high performancething.
What do you think has been yoursuccess there, or how have you
struck that balance?

Rafe Maclean (22:11):
Well, I think most of our projects are really
simple.
They're just embellished withsomething yeah, nice, yeah, and
you only have to do thermalmodelling to sort of work that
out pretty quickly.
Keeping things really simplehas been a motto, and so the
budget does go further.
Sometimes the sites are quitecomplex, right, and now I can

(22:33):
get into talk about districtplans and recession plans and
stuff.

Sam Brown (22:36):
That's a whole other conversation, yeah.
It's a bit of a rabbit warrenbut it's interesting that the
simplicity thing, I think for me, what I've experienced is the
focus on simplicity to achieveperformance often I've found, is
a deterrent to potentialclients because they go oh we're
going to do a high-performancebuild or we're going to do a
passive house, it has to be asquare with no windows and we

(22:58):
can't open the doors and allthis sort of stuff, whereas I
guess what I'm leading to is,like Rafe, you've counted that
completely and, josh, I'd say,with your place as well, it's a
great proponent of the fact thatyour house is essentially a
two-story cube and it has, likeyou said, it's got this little

(23:18):
bit of embellishment, but it'sfunctional embellishment, josh,
in particular with your house,you know, with the shading
elements, but that really makesit a great piece of architecture
.
And I think what people don't,what potential clients or what
the lay people don't understand,is that simple doesn't mean
simple necessarily.

Rafe Maclean (23:37):
Yeah, I think early on when I say early on,
like five years ago, if youlooked up Passive House on the
internet, there aren't greatexamples of Passive House.
The internet there aren't greatexamples of passive house.
They're very well engineeredbut architecturally, in terms of
aesthetics, it's pretty brutal.

(23:58):
Some of the examples that yousee.
I think that's one thing thatI'd really like to have more
architects involved with passivehouse, because if you bring
that into your toolbox and useit as a parameter in your
designs, your designs are somuch, so enriched with this

(24:18):
technical background, yourarchitecture actually works
really well.
So that's I think that's reallyimportant.
That's why I personally gotreally into it, because I
thought, well, there's achallenge there, because I see
all these german europeanexamples of passive house and
like, like I said before, brutal, and here's us over here doing
quite elegant little thin roofthings that are applauded by the

(24:40):
industry or the magazines andso forth.
Can we find a middle ground,something that accomplishes the
engineering but holds thearchitecture architecture stuff
together?

Sam Brown (24:54):
the sweet spot there that, um, we've been targeting,
yeah, yeah and I think, likefrom a design point of view and
and, josh, I imagine for you aswell from like a builder's
perspective, it's quite easy.
I mean you can design somethingreally incredibly beautiful,
but it's basic and it's kind ofoverall function or it's

(25:16):
detailing or something likealong those lines.
Or you can design somethingthat's like all and considered
and a beautiful piece ofarchitecture, but it's really
highly detailed, really highlyconsidered.
It's got all of these passivehouse necessary.

Josh Atkins (25:29):
It's not necessarily achieving passive
house, but like maybe you'reusing those detail methods or
something, you're justunderstanding how to do
something a little bit betterand you're sort of more
intrinsically involved in thedesign or in the build process
and ultimately I think that hasa flow-on effect to your general
architecture in your generalbuilding as well yeah, I think
when you're like rick wastouching on in terms of keeping

(25:49):
it simple but obviously stillhaving architectural flair and
design and using those methods,I think everyone here has done a
house with good old-fashionedcolour steel which is about a
third of the price of somevertical clad timber but done
well, looks amazing and iseye-catching and people don't

(26:10):
look at cedar and would be like,oh, that looks three times
better than than that palestinehouse if it's done well.
So I think those are really keywins in terms of, like material
selection that can be used onjobs using a polished slab, but
then we, we you know flooringand then that kind of helps

(26:31):
reduce that expense that someclients might be spending on an
underfloor system if they'reusing that, yeah, and then being
involved like early and withthat simple design and bouncing
ideas with architects about howeverything's going to work
definitely mitigates the risk ofthat cost.
It's been high performance.

Sam Brown (26:51):
I think the relationship that we've
developed, josh, and the waythat we sort of work from from
concept design almost, is like atrue testament to that.
Like it's quite particularly ifyou're probably dealing with a
contractor that's not asexperienced in high performance
building um, you know, andyou're detailing something that
is, you know, that's to thestandard, and then you're trying

(27:11):
to have to explain it at alater date.
That's always going to drivecosts up and it's going to make
things a lot more difficult.

Josh Atkins (27:18):
Particularly for us , those projects are the
successful ones and where therelationship is involved between
the designer and the builderand even the client as well,
some understanding what they'retrying to achieve.
We did another house.
We did sips, panels, doublestory, real simple, modern
building.
On the outside that just lookslike a big green box.

(27:40):
It's 250 squares, I think, witha mezzanine floor.
Every time I go in, I love it.
There's two bedrooms and a bigboat room, downstairs, laundry
and then a master upstairs inthe mezzanine, in a living room,
and it just feels really big.
But in terms of the performanceit got and the floor area and

(28:04):
just being quite modest withtheir selections, they just
nailed a healthy, healthy,comfortable, energy efficient
house on their budget.
So, yeah, it's really nice whenit goes that way and it works
out well and it's just getting areally clear understanding of
what people want to achieve.

(28:26):
They didn't understand how niceit was going to be either.

Sam Brown (28:30):
That's a nice one yeah.

Josh Atkins (28:32):
I guess people just don't know.

Rafe Maclean (28:36):
I guess until they've been in one or lived in
one.
Yeah, we're finding that withnew clients who have visited
past clients' houses and theyjust really liked it and they go
.
We want one of those.

Sam Brown (28:48):
It's almost like you need to give them a you know, or
like, organise an overnightstay or something, and in a
house, because, you're right,it's not until you, because on
the surface and you know, in themiddle of a fine day or
something, when the window'sopen, you can't necessarily tell
the difference, but it's thatovernight experience that then
you're like, oh wow, this isquite remarkable.

(29:09):
You know it's, it's, it's thewaking up in the morning.
You know, in particular, downdown where you are, rafe and and
Josh.
You know it's the waking up inthe morning, in the middle of
winter, and it's still, you know, 20 degrees in your home.
And you look out the window andthere's just this blanket of
fog everywhere, from fireplacespumping out smoke.
You know, to try and keep thehouses warm.

(29:29):
Where you can look out, you cansee the framing lines on
everybody's houses from thecondensation and all that stuff.
And you're just you kind of sitthere laughing a little bit.
Well that's a thing, becauseyou're like I feel terrible for
everybody else, but great for me.

Joe Lyth (29:41):
That's a really good example of kind of the the
unseen or unappreciated benefitsof this sort of considering
this performance.
Because you won't be able tosmell all of that wood smoke,
you know you won't be able tohear um the traffic down the
road.
You won't be able to, you knowyou don't.
You don't need to hear andexperience things you don't want

(30:02):
to experience, so like pollenfor example.
You know you don't have to tryand rely on open windows.
So if you've got allergies it'snot an issue.
Insects like I.
I love leaving our doors andwindows open all summer but come
the evening I close them so Idon't get bit into hell
overnight.
But we know we're still goingto get a well-ventilated house
sort of thing.
So it's just answering thosepoints.
At the times that you can't dothings, I suppose I was going to

(30:26):
say as well, constraints breedcreativity.
If you've got a blank canvasyou can do a flip at anything
and you don't necessarily needto judge all your decisions.
So I cut my teeth doing loftextensions and rear extensions
and little Georgian terraces inLondon.
And somebody would come and sayI want two bedrooms and a
bathroom up in this roof spaceand it's a 20 degree roof and

(30:48):
it's only two meters head height.
How the hell are you going tofit that that in so kind of
working within these constraintsfrom a design perspective?
So light, height and ratio,boundary or planning conditions
and stuff.
You need to kind of really judgeevery decision you make and it
makes you work harder to achievethe outcome.
And that's the same withprescribing performance out
measurable performance outcomesrather than she'll be right

(31:09):
performance outcomes, becauseyou have to work harder and make
sure you're doing the rightthing.
So how big does that windowneed to be?
Instead of just a massive wallof glass?
What is it framing?
Is it framing the view?
You know?
You kind of it pushes betterdesign, I think, because you
have to consider these decisionsmore than you would have done
in the first place.
Yeah, that's what I enjoy aboutit the framing, the view.

Sam Brown (31:30):
One's an interesting one.
I've I'm sure we've allprobably got stories around this
, but I've had numerousoccasions where and it's in
places that do have spectacularviews where clients are like we
want to wall of glass because wewant to see everything and I'm
like you can step outside andsee everything.
Like how about we cultivate aview, how about we create this
horizontal low window?

(31:50):
So when you're sitting down atyour couch relaxing, you're
getting this perfect view shaftout of this thing.
And they're like no, we want tobe able to stand there and have
everything looking at me all atonce and I'm like well, do you
want it to be 50 degrees in here?
in the middle of summer and mostof them they're like yeah, we
don't care, we just want theview.
And it's such a hard sell to belike.
Well, how about we actually dosomething a little bit more
interesting and nuanced and ithas a little bit more flavor and

(32:12):
texture to it than just likehere it is?
Here's everything all at once.
You know, it's like thesupersized me of architecture in
terms of a meal Like no onereally wants that.

Joe Lyth (32:20):
And it puts the view looking back as well, Like if
you've got a really nice housealong a beach or something,
people walking on the beach aregoing to be looking back.

Sam Brown (32:26):
That's fine to see blinds closed in the middle At
the opportune time of day toactually appreciate the view is
pretty horrific.

Rafe Maclean (32:34):
Yeah.
One thing that grates me a lotis seeing the bed from the
street, but that's a differenttopic.
Yeah, but I think if youpresent the data at design
meetings, like how much it'sgoing to overheat, and then
here's the options to mitigatethat external blinds or a triple
glazing with a real low g value, things like that and then

(32:56):
compare the capital cost versusthe running cost, we often do
that just like just to nudge thedesign decision into the, into
the direction yeah, but thensometime on the same on the same
.
Presenting too much informationto clients often can be
overwhelming, we've noticed overthe years.

(33:16):
Is that not to talk aboutPassPass too much to say.
Well, this is what we do.

Sam Brown (33:21):
Yeah.

Rafe Maclean (33:23):
This is how we do it, and you're going to be warm
yeah.

Sam Brown (33:27):
I mean that was something I think I mentioned to
you, ray, from when we caughtup.
I mean that was something Ithink I mentioned to you, rafe,
when we caught up.
It's been.
A slight concern of mine isthat when you speak about
operating in this space becausea lot of people don't understand
it, you instantly get quitepigeonholed and so a lot of
people are like oh, I can't, Idon't want to talk to them, I

(33:48):
won't talk to this architect orengage with them because they
only do passive house and Idon't want a passive house.
But it's not like that.
We are just architects at theend of the day.
We will try and probablyencourage you in the right
direction, but you know it's not.

Rafe Maclean (34:00):
It's not like we're part of some cult that
will like strike you down if you, if you don't agree but, it's
an education thing yeah, I think, and that's um, say no to some
projects as well, like there arepeople who want open fireplaces
still Silly stuff.
That's fine.
Maybe I'm just matured throughthat and I used to get quite

(34:20):
irritated by those people, butit's like, okay, we don't need
those.
We just work with people thatactually want something, a
decent home to live in and it'sgood on the planet.

Josh Atkins (34:35):
Yeah, you get.
I had a lot of the brush withthe green side of things lately,
or the we don't.
We don't want a passive house.
We got approached about quite alarge home to have a look at
and we're not greenies and we'renot into the passive house and
I had a review of their plansand I was like we actually if

(34:55):
you're not a greenie you'reincorporating some pretty good
practices into your design,which your architect's done in
terms of recessed window detailsand thermally broken slabs and
the suspended slab with a doubleslab with insulation.
So I think the web is going abit wider in terms of other

(35:16):
architects that aren'tnecessarily back themselves on
sustainable practice or energyefficiency or high performance.
Just know that it's the betterway to detail.
Now, in this particular jobthey said all our neighbours
it's in a quite largesubdivision, big sections said
they've got no problem withheating their home, with the

(35:38):
energy systems, but their housesare all too bloody hot in the
summer and they hate it.
And I was like that's wherePassive House, which they kind
of like a taboo word, sometimessolve your problem quite easily
and your design early on.

(35:59):
So it's like I was thinkingbefore Sam, you should get a
psychologist on this podcast.

Sam Brown (36:06):
Talk about the psychology of building.

Josh Atkins (36:08):
Talk about the psychology of building and
architecture.
Oh God.

Sam Brown (36:12):
It ended up just being a therapy session.

Josh Atkins (36:14):
I say it's like the one thing in New Zealand that
it's like, oh, how cheap is yourhouse, how much did you spend?
And like most of that has lowtheir square meter raters,
whereas people in that samecircle wouldn't be going and
telling their friends how cheapand unreliable their Range Rover

(36:35):
is.
That's a great analogy.

Sam Brown (36:40):
It is interesting that you say, josh, that you're
starting to see it come or seethese better practices come from
a wider field, and I thinkthat's sort of evidenced as well
.
This year the measuring peg innew zealand for for great
architecture is our awardsprogram, and this year we've
sort of seen for the first timethat kind of have that um,

(37:03):
sustainability criteria,although it was a requirement
but not judged upon or notmandatory this year or something
.
I don't know, it's veryconfusing, um, but like, at
least it's there and it's aconsideration and it's, you know
, it's starting, not judged uponor not mandatory this year or
something.
I don't know, it's veryconfusing, but like, at least
it's there and it's aconsideration and it's, you know
, it's starting to be understood.
And I think we are seeing thata lot of like our specialties, I

(37:25):
guess, or what we've consideredto be our specialties up to
date, are now becoming a bitmore of the norm.
I don't know if that'schallenging for us because we're
less specialised, but I thinkoverall it's going to result in
a better built environment,which is fantastic.

Rafe Maclean (37:43):
I think it's really good.
I think it's what we've beentrying to do, so it's kind of
working, but slowly.
I mean it's such good, I thinkit's what we've been trying to
do, so it's kind of working, butslowly.
I mean it's such a slow thingto change.
I think.
The awards thing yeah, it'squite interesting that one,
because it all depends on who'son the jury and if they actually
can read the metrics or notUnderstand them, yeah, and
understand them.

(38:03):
Yeah, because we've done thatquite for a number of years, put
forward metrics, because we'vedone that for a number of years,
put forward metrics.
But unfortunately the jury justdidn't have very kind with my
words here, just didn't have theexperience to actually
understand what the numbers were.

Sam Brown (38:18):
Yeah, no, totally.
I think that's a fair comment,Rafe, and it will be interesting
, I think, to see moving forwardif that's sort of a role in the
jury is taken up by somebodywho is experienced in that, in
that area it'll change over time, but you know if you repeat
that thing every year peoplepeople start to understand what

(38:39):
what it's about.
So yeah, it's a good move andeven not yourself, josh, no home
of you know, having having agreen home of the year, you know
I don't know how long thataward's been running for now,
but you know that itself, youknow, recognising something in
that realm with a higher honour,I think is pretty important

(38:59):
because, let's be honest, theway that architecture is best
presented throughout New Zealandis through those mechanisms.
It's, you know, it's an easierway to kind of let it reach a
wider audience than us kind ofsitting there in one-on-one
meetings or trying to convinceclients independently.
Joe, in your role as chairmannow of Passive House Institute,

(39:24):
have you guys got any plans,thoughts, deliverables or
anything that?
you're looking at KPIs, that'sprobably a podcast in itself
again, oh it is.
Your quick elevator pitch, likehow are you guys looking to try
and maybe like bring morepeople into the fold?

Joe Lyth (39:41):
Yeah, I mean I agree to take on the role because yeah
, it's really interesting beingin the design community in new
zealand and kind of seeing allthe discussions around.
You know what's happening thenz architecture forum, um, the
feedback from the um, thesustainability criteria from
from the awards and all sorts ofthings which I've been a bit

(40:03):
involved with as well.
And we did a survey a fewnewsletters ago around modeling
and just asking you know, do dodesigners, what do you do to
find out how your building'sperforming rather than just
complying?
Do you know there's adifference?
Do you care there's adifference?
That sort of thing.
And there was an interestingresponse to one of them was um,
I can't believe the nza isadvocating for modeling women.

(40:24):
You're going to make architectsless relevant, and I find that
a really interesting positionbecause, as josh is saying, our
clients are asking for it.
They're going to only ask forit more.
Surely it's going to make usmore relevant.
So so it's kind of like thesphere of some of the community
not really thinking they shouldor need to be doing that sort of
thing and seeing it was justlike high for looting people put

(40:45):
had a passive house on thisflipping pedestal and they say
it's this black and white thing,it's, you know, gold standard
all the way up here too.
Expensive lead size ofinsulation, all these bits and
pieces and none of that's true.
Passive house is about theoutcomes.
That is literally what it is.
It is these are the performanceoutcomes you need to achieve
around every energy performance,comfort and air tightness.

(41:05):
How you achieve that iscompletely up to you.
You can do whatever materialsyou.
You can do it with whatevermaterials you want.
You can do it with whateverbuilt form you want, whatever
building.
There's parts of our swimmingpools, there's parts of our
schools.
It's just about those outcomes,and those outcomes are based on
science but also comfort.
So they're based on the WorldHealth Organization requirements
of temperature.
They're based on making surewe're getting the minimum air

(41:27):
exchange.
So they're kind of what we needto be comfortable, no more, no
less.
It is the Goldilocks zone sortof thing and, like our house up
here, it's a certified passivehouse and it's got essentially
90mm walls, it's got a SIP roofwhich is a 215mm panel, and then
it's got a 240mm suspendedtimber floor.

(41:47):
So a lot of the elements arebasically code minimum, if not
lower.
With the r6, you know we've gothalf 5.2, I think, in the
ceiling.
It doesn't need to be this r6.6stuff that seems so simple.
Yeah, and it's just.
You know, it doesn't need to becomplex.
We could have got away withdouble glazing.
We went with triple glazingbecause it was only a thousand
dollars more from the company ineurope that we got the windows
from, you know, so it doesn'tneed to be difficult the deniers

(42:09):
of passive house and roof andeyes region just need to shift
them to auckland and they'll beyes, 100, and that's the point.
That's kind of the point,because the other side of the
coin is people saying, oh, it'sa scandinavian design thing,
that's for coal countries only.
Passive house is completelysite and climate and climate
specific.
That's the whole reason itworks is because you're using
the actual climate data based onthe actual location.

(42:31):
The passive house is not anexcuse for crap design.
You still have to consider goodorientation.
You still have to consider air,you know passive cooling
through airflow.
You still have to consideroverhangs, all these sorts of
things.
But the modeling process andthe qa process just makes sure
you've got the confidence,you've made the right decisions
and you've got an even higherlevel of QA checking it

(42:54):
throughout the build process andthen doing the air tightness
testing at the end to make surethat you're actually achieving
what you set out to achieve inthe first place be better,
basically.
So so my sorry tangents, so my,my kind of.
I took this like a chair role tokind of take, try and take
passive house of this over thetop pedestal that people have
put it on and just take it downand say, hey, we all just want

(43:16):
to have healthy buildings.
You know, we want to havebeautiful buildings but we don't
have healthy buildings, I'mpretty sure we won't have lower
energy bills.
These are the ways we can dothis.
It's not doesn't have to becomplicated.
If you don't make itcomplicated, it can be very
straightforward.
It's just these processes whichadd to what we're doing.
We're not changing it.
You know, passive house isbased on the principles of
passive solar.
It's just given us the actualinstruction booklet to make sure

(43:39):
we're doing it right, ratherthan guessing, which is what
we've done so far, sort of thing.
So I just want to try and getmore people into healthy
buildings through thatmeasurably healthy buildings.

Sam Brown (43:49):
I like what you said, joe as well, earlier on about
how constraints can often leadto great design solutions and
sort of the outline of theprinciples of the idea as a
passive house, like using thoseconstraints to generate your
architecture can actually leadto some really amazing outcomes.
And I think people aren't reallyengaging with that yet because

(44:11):
they don't understand itbasically and they kind of see
it as a barrier.
But it's almost like if youwhat you've similarly to what
you've done with the, you knowthe homestar design guide you've
made a very simple, easy toeasy to digest and understand
for the layperson document.
Well, you know the laypersondocument.
Well, you know the laypersonarchitect document that people
can learn from.
It'd be interesting, if youknow, if Passive House was to do

(44:34):
something similar.
We basically have like a numberof design limitations or ideas
or concepts that you couldemploy in your architecture that
is going to result in a betterperforming building without
having to necessarily dive intoit, Because I think that's a
fear for a lot of architects isthat I've got to like completely
upskill on something totallynew.
I've got enough on my plate blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Joe Lyth (44:56):
Well, like 70% of the respondents were sole
practitioners.
Yeah right, I'm running my owncompany now and I don't have
time to do frigging anythingLike, and these people are
probably panicking.
How am I going to learn how todo modeling, all this kind of
stuff?
Yeah, so we're working withFinns, the NZIA, hopefully ADNZ

(45:17):
and Ender GBC.
You're all working together todo a cross-industry roadshow, I
suppose you could call it around.
What is modeling, how do we doit?
And essentially, I'm going todo this presentation and then do
an energy model in an hour anda half in front of people.
And there you go, that's how wedo it and that's that gives you
the instruction booklets forthe outcomes you're trying to
achieve.
To try and just try and takesome of the fear out of it, you
know, ends up doing all theseones about embodied carbon at

(45:38):
the moment and I helped with onein auckland and people like oh,
so you're just measuring areasand then timesing it by the
carbon intensity.
Here's your carbon model.
Yeah, it doesn't have to bedifficult once you kind of start
learning it.
Yeah, but it's it's.
It's given people the time,it's given people the tools.
It's given people, you know the, the confidence to, to give it
a go, I suppose.

(45:58):
So, um, yeah, that's my kind ofmy kind of my bag.

Sam Brown (46:03):
Baby, just try and get people on the journey I find
that interesting, the commentthat you made about, you know,
the fear that it's makingarchitects less relevant, and
you know how you're saying youthink it's actually making us
more relevant.
I totally agree, because I thinkwe're a profession that prides
ourselves on learning andgrowing and developing and
understanding, like we not toput ourselves up there too much,

(46:25):
but probably no, actually I'mgoing to we are the the highest
level of design skill in thecountry.
Let's put it that way, um, youknow there's some great
architectural designers andeverything out there, but the,
the rigorous, the kind ofprocess that we've got to go
through as architects to get tothis point, you know, just kind
of leaves us with a better, abetter toolbox.
And now upskilling ourselves inthis kind of create got further

(46:51):
, I think, further cements ourimportance to the built
environment, where, you know,rather than diminish it which is
a bit of a concern at themoment with certain um thoughts
on the role of the architect butyou know, like, if we're sort
of all adopting this, or atleast an understanding of it, I
think it kind of, like you know,increases our importance.

Josh Atkins (47:13):
I think it can become more relevant in making
sure that design is done well.
I'm not an architect, I'm abuilder.
I really dislike building uglyhouses.
It's not very satisfying,neither them, nor is it.
I feel like you've reallycontributed to the built
environment, and then so it'seven more important, I guess,

(47:37):
the modeling.
It means you're not going to bewasting your time as much on
that because you're getting allthe data and so you can spend
your energy on what you'rereally good at, which is the
creativity and what I do the job, um, with the data, to kind of
back up and reassure you thatyour design is on track, and you

(48:01):
can focus on the creativity andhow the space is going to be
used and how the people aregoing to live in it, what it's
going to look like, and thenjust sitting in the back of your
head is I know all these kidsof this family are going to be
comfortable, I know it's goingto be healthy, I know the
client's not going to be likethis is too hot or this is too
cold.

(48:21):
Yeah, I think it just puts youguys more into focusing on what
you're good at.

Sam Brown (48:28):
Yeah, Rafe, you said something to me, quite an
interesting thing to me when wecaught up last.
You said think about this,you're only as good as your last
project, and it reallyresonated with me actually.
Thanks for the comment.
But in relating it to this, ifyou designed a really beautiful

(48:50):
piece of architecture but youknow it's going to cost your
client $2,500 a month to heat orcool, are you happy with that
outcome?
Or likewise, if you've designeda really high-performance
building but ultimately you'renot that happy with the way that
it looks aesthetically, are youhappy with that outcome?
Probably not.
So it's now like marrying thetwo and having that balance and,

(49:10):
like you said, it's alwaysleaving the indelible mark,
project after project yeah, umdifficult question, I think.

Rafe Maclean (49:17):
Um, I mean learning about passive house.
You always have to reset youraesthetics and and your all the
baggage that you've asarchitects bring from
architecture school which isfrom my time it was big thing
was deconstruction and and uh,post-modern you know, was coming

(49:37):
back and it was just likeeverything was thin or or just
out of control and shapeseverywhere, so many corners and
stuff.
So you know, as soon as yousort of learn about um, thermo
modeling and how, howthermodynamics actually work,
works, you learn quite.
You realize quite quickly thatall those sort of thoughts don't
actually work.
The physics just doesn't work.
So anyway, back to yourquestion about latest project.

(50:01):
Yeah, I think it's reallyimportant to um is to do the
best work you can and try really, really hard to get the most
performance of the project, asthe project can afford, even if
it's sacrificing stuff.
And one thing that I often talkabout with clients when we're

(50:22):
trying to trim money out of theproject, which always happens,
is that, okay, these passivehouse windows they're twice as
much per square meter as adouble-glazed building
code-compliant window.
Okay, if they're double as much, they just have 50% of the area
, so it would be the same costand then that kind of thinking.

(50:44):
You have to think like that.
It's like well, instead ofhaving all these windows, let's
have just one big window framingthat perfect view, yep, and
that becomes actually richerthan lots of windows.
Like I said, it's a big resetand I think for architects to
take on this, they do need tosort of lose some baggage from

(51:06):
the education and just rethinkthings and restart and let the
physics shape the building a bitmore.

Sam Brown (51:17):
Joe, you talked about learning about all of this at
university in your time in theUK.
How much of a role does ourschools of architecture and
design in New Zealand, how muchof a role does the you know does
our schools of architecture anddesign in in new zealand how
much do they need to, you knowplay a role in this and this
change, in this shifting mindset?

Joe Lyth (51:37):
so much yeah I mean.
So it's just coming back to arace point as well.
Like, yeah, when we were uni,you know we studied, you know
the modernists, we went aroundvienna and looked at um, you
know loose and corb and allsorts of bits and pieces, and
you know, that's kind of thestuff that's lauded.
So I think historically there'sbeen quite a disconnect between
form and function, andperformance almost seem like
kind of like different sides ofit.

(51:58):
So, like you know, the VilleSavoir is this incredible piece
of architecture but there'sfamously a letter from the
client to Corb saying that theyjust can't live in it.
They can't live in it becauseit's boiling in summer, freezing
in winter and there's walls, nowater pissing down the walls
all the time, you know.
And yet we kind of celebratethat as a, as a, an item, you
know.
But then we are architects, arekind of essentially health care

(52:20):
providers, because we have thebiggest impact on the health of
people in the world.
We design all of the spacespeople inhabit, we it would be
nice if architects designed allthe spaces.
Some of them aren't designedarchitects.
That's probably even worse,because they're even less kind
of considered spaces.
And so we have the biggestimpact on people's health,
because you know we design thefabric of our cities and our

(52:41):
homes and all sorts of things.
So we should absolutely betaking that as our one of our
responsibilities.
You know our code of ethicsliterally says in it, you know,
we should do no harm to others,basically, and if we are
designing buildings withoutconsidering whether they're
going to be harming these people, surely we're failing in that
responsibility sort of thing.
Um, so, yeah, so.
So so the union uk we did.

(53:02):
We did passive house.
We had a fantastic, um, youknow, a 3d workshop, fantastic
3D workshop.
I used a lathe to do myclassical columns for one of my
projects, and then I did Ramdurfand another project and it was
just awesome.
But on the flip side, we hadArchiLab, which was energy
modeling, passive House, lookingat thermodynamics, all sorts of
bits and pieces, and you knowwe used to.

(53:24):
I can think back to severalprojects we did where you're
still trying to get that reallynice thin roof line but you've
still got the big steel whichneeds a thermal break and the
vapor barrier and all sorts ofthings.
So we just got on with it andwe still designed pretty, pretty
bloody nice buildings.
And, like I do, I've done a fewlectures for unis here and I've
got a couple more coming up, andfor this one that's coming up
in august, I kind of said, oh sowhich course is this?
And it was the buildingsciences course.

(53:45):
I said, oh, cool, so how do youguys tie into the design course
?
Oh, we don't really.
There's a optional, an optionalpart that some students could
do if they like, but thenarchitects come out of uni
basically like engineers.
You know, I'd never donebracing design before I came
here.
I probably still haven't, to behonest, because I prefer to
leave the structure to theengineers.
But that's fine.
You know, architects will comeout of architecture school as

(54:07):
designers and kind of engineers,but they'll leave the
performance and the healthcareand the energy to other people
and that kind of just doesn'tconnect with me.
Yeah, maybe it's my OCD, but Ilike to have control of all of
my elements, control withinreason, all the little parts of
the project, you know.

Rafe Maclean (54:25):
That's amazing to hear, Joe.
I really liked your educationbackground.

Joe Lyth (54:29):
It was cool.
It was, yeah, kingstonUniversity West London smash on.

Rafe Maclean (54:35):
I think we had a services paper in Victoria and
that was.
We learned about heating andcooling systems, just sort of
like life support systems forarchitecture, but we never
learned about fabric or you knowthe envelope of buildings and
how energy goes through them andstuff.
And I was just like inhindsight I was just like geez,

(54:55):
you know who's running this show.

Josh Atkins (54:57):
Yeah because, I'm missing peace.

Sam Brown (54:59):
Yeah, I mean, the whole architecture education
side of things is fascinating.
It's the 101 things I didn'tlearn at architecture school.
When you get into practice youknow we talk about design, but
often very little else.

Josh Atkins (55:12):
There's a main architecture study done in
Wellington and Auckland.
Yeah, younger people.
But I wondered what thegraduate side of things do you
guys see coming through?

Sam Brown (55:26):
Yeah, so we've got a graduate.
She's been working with with us.
She worked with us through hertime at university and she's
just come on full-time now andshe I mean because she's been
working with us for the lastfour years, she's been exposed
to all of this.
But it's and it's interestingtalking to her about her peers
and their knowledge in thissector and they have none.
They don't, they don'tunderstand it at all.

(55:47):
It's not They've got.
No, I mean, they don't evenreally have an understanding of
the building code, to begin with, let alone.
You know, this is a level aboveit.
So, yeah, there's a long way togo in the education sector.

Rafe Maclean (56:01):
It's not Alron's starting at Victoria, isn't he
Mm-hmm?
So things might be changing.

Joe Lyth (56:06):
Oh interesting, oh, that'll be cool, yeah yeah, I
have heard before that kind ofargument of shouldn't shouldn't
design a university, beunconstrained so people could
spread their wings and not haveto.
You know, you look at kind ofsome of the stuff coming out of
the aa in london which isfloating cities in the sky and
all these crazy things.

(56:27):
You know, push the imaginationwithout having to worry about a
client in a brief, which isabsolutely sensational.
We need that side of design.
But also then they come out ofthe university on the other side
and can't design a toilet whichwe also need to do, the ice
bath of real practice.
And there needs to be a balancein there, you know kind of
allowing our imaginations anddesign flair to soar, but also

(56:52):
try and at least ground it inthe realities of practice and
commercial realities oftimesheets and billables and you
know all that kind of horrificstuff which we don't actually
want to really think about butwe kind of have to if we're
going to run successfulpractices.
You know most I think mostpractices in New Zealand are
like between one and five people, aren't they?

(57:13):
Yeah, so as designers we haveto do flipping everything, yeah.

Sam Brown (57:17):
Awesome guys.
Well, we've just took over anhour, so thoughts on from all of
you, um, just open floorwhatever you kind of want to
want to impart on on listeners.

Rafe Maclean (57:34):
Um, yeah, yeah.
One thing I referred to um highperformance building and I was
kind of thinking about itprobably a bit too much, is that
maybe we should shift thereference plane there and or the
bar and just consider thatnormal, like normal building and
then talk about low-performancebuilding.
Yeah, it's so true yeah yeahyeah.

Sam Brown (57:54):
I'll start doing that .
Would you like us to design youa low-performance building?

Rafe Maclean (57:59):
Yeah.

Josh Atkins (57:59):
Thank you, that's pretty off-putting.
Yeah, I know, oh yeah, thatsounds like a low-performance
building what you want.

Sam Brown (58:07):
Yeah, yeah.
You tarnish it with that andfrom the outset it's just going
to leave a sour taste inpeople's mouths.
I like that idea because whenyou use the high-performance
term, it kind of makes it soundlike you're elevating it as
something that's almostunachievable.

Rafe Maclean (58:22):
If you go into a sales place selling fridges and
people say, or the salespersongoes, place, you know selling
fridges, you know.
And people say, well, thesalesperson goes, oh, would you
like a low-performance fridge?

Sam Brown (58:31):
And you go, I don't know, yeah, it may or may not
curdle your milk, exactly, yeah.

Rafe Maclean (58:36):
That's my fight, that's my word.

Sam Brown (58:37):
I like that, ralph, that's great.
I don't know.

Josh Atkins (58:49):
I just encourage people to test themselves and if
they're an architect or adesigner and what they can
achieve.
And, um, you guys havedefinitely given away some
pretty you know and awesomeinsights to how you learn, or
what you learned over time andwhat you've developed.
And, um, there's builderspodcasts out there as well,
giving away, like um, a lot ofgood information, so it's not

(59:10):
like the information's not outthere and even clients can do
the research as well.
But, yeah, patient house is notugly architecture, um, and it
can be done really well.
And I think just finding theright people for your projects
and just dare to be a bitdifferent, don't be boring.

Sam Brown (59:33):
Yeah, I like.
One thing that I think as wellon that, josh, is find the right
people for your project.
It's build the right team atthe start as well.
Have the designer, have thecontractor, have whoever else
you want to be involvedstructural engineer, even
geotext, let's be honest.
Have everybody there at thebeginning and have them.

(59:56):
You know aiming for that samegoal of you know normal
performance building, regularbuilding as we're calling it now
Because ultimately you know ifeverybody's on that same stream
flow, you're going to end upwith a good result.
And you know that concern aboutcost and all of that sort of
stuff ends up going away becauseit just becomes a norm for

(01:00:18):
everybody throughout the courseof the project.
So I mean it's something that Ithink you and I have really put
to the test and proven that itworks and kind of hope to you
know, continue to see thathappen throughout the industry.

Josh Atkins (01:00:29):
Yeah.

Sam Brown (01:00:29):
Yeah.

Joe Lyth (01:00:31):
Yeah, I really like the idea of low performance
building right.
We've been kind of because theproblem is high performance.
There's no measurement.
It covers a multitude of things.
You know, it's low performance.
One and two to 99 is highperformance and then 100 is
passive house, sort of thing.
So we yeah, we've got a boardmeeting down in wellington on

(01:00:52):
next week, so I'm gonna, I'mgonna propose that for low
performance building.
Yeah, um, I'll credit you, Ipromise.
I suppose my thing is kind ofcoming back to relevance, like
if we're designing a buildingnow and, as josh said as well,
you know are we gonna, and ittakes take bloody long time to
build a building in new zealand,let's be honest.
So we're starting the designnow, it might be finished in a

(01:01:13):
year or even two years.
If it's a really complicatedthing.
By the time that building'sfinished it's going to be no, no
longer relevant because thingsare going to move.
They're going to keep moving,performance standards are going
to shift, the building code'sgoing to continue changing um.
So why not just aim for the top?
Why not aim for the best levelum of performance?

(01:01:35):
And yes, there are absolutelyconversations of kind of where
that best level is.
Because you know low energybuilding standard from passive
house is 30 kilowatt hours.
Passive house is 15 kilowatthours, most new builds around
120.
You know kilowatt hours ofenergy demand for heating.
So even even 30 kilowatt hoursis a significant step up from

(01:01:59):
where we are.
Um, and there's all these kindof conversations around oh, is
this, is this a relevantconstruction or design typology
for our climate?
It's relevant for every climate.
There are Passive Housedwellings in Antarctica.
There are Passive Housedwellings in Dubai.
It is completelyclimate-specific.
It just allows you to designand have the confidence you're

(01:02:19):
designing correctly for thatclimate.
So why don't we want to bebetter?
Why don't we want to?
You know, push ourselves,constrain ourselves?

Rafe Maclean (01:02:26):
Just on that.
It's quite interesting lookingback at our grandparents' era,
where they built the bestbuildings that they could with
what they had.
Yep, and now we don't seem todo that, we're just like
tiptoeing around.

Joe Lyth (01:02:42):
When I came to New Zealand, one of the first things
I did I went to a lecture atProGlymer and Thomas presented
the timber tents that newzealanders build, you know, and
it's kind of a timber tent.
You know, we haven't really gotmuch further past from a, from
a.
You know, we builtsensationally believable
buildings but from a performanceperspective it is still a frame

(01:03:02):
with something on the outsideand the inside a bit of fluff in
the middle.
Um, and you know there is a lotof conversation.
People think that passive houseor high performance means loads
of membranes and tapes andplastics and glues and all sorts
of things.
Um, but there are straw balepassive houses.
Look at jessica's place down inguanaca.
Um, I was speaking to somebodythat came up from germany last
week and they were talking to aprefab builder who's um doing

(01:03:27):
prefabricated passive housedesigns which are completely
timber.
There isn't a single membrane,there isn't a single tape.
It's 140 timber wall withsheep's, all insulation in a
timber air barrier, wood fiberinsulation, the services cavity,
wood fiber insulation on theoutside, which is also the um
the weather tightness line,because it's free drains,

(01:03:48):
ventilated cavity, then timbercladding, timber windows and all
of the air, which is also theweather tightness line because
it's free drains, ventilatedcavity, then timber cladding,
timber windows and all of theair tightness is friction fit
because they're prefabbingeverything.
They can get a millimeterperfect so they don't even have
to rely on tapes and membranesand stuff, so we don't have to
go down those oil-based, overlycomplex lots of layers.
We can still do it simply, butwe just need to.
Well, in the New Zealand market, we need to kind of drive to

(01:04:08):
get these products in so we canactually start using them, to be
honest, and get the market forthem Awesome.

Sam Brown (01:04:13):
Well, thank you so much, guys.
It's been a real pleasurechatting with you all and thank
you for giving up your time tochat in performance and
architecture and aesthetics, andhope to see us all continue to
push things in the rightdirection in New Zealand.

Joe Lyth (01:04:29):
Thanks Sam, thanks Sam , appreciate it.
Thanks Sam, thanks Sam, thanksSam.