March 4, 2025 • 54 mins
Step into the new year with us as we reopen the doors to our podcast, diving deep into the vibrant world of architecture and design. We'll share our personal highlights from the recent Dezeen Awards, a celebration of exceptional creativity, and inspire listeners with the remarkable projects that put New Zealand on the global design map. Throughout the episode, we unpack the differences between local awards and their international counterparts, examining how to enhance the celebratory aspects of these events.
Join us as we advocate for the revitalisation of competition in the architectural landscape, encouraging fresh ideas and innovative approaches to design. From discussing Wellington's thriving talent to recognising the need for more dynamic celebrations, we aim to uplift and inspire the architectural community. Our conversation challenges the norms that often dampen creativity and emphasises the necessity for an engaging environment where designers feel confident to share their work.
Within this episode, we reflect on the rich potential within New Zealand’s architecture, and the exciting prospects that lie ahead. The dialogue encapsulates our belief that architecture should not only be about buildings but about community, creativity, and recognition. We invite you to engage with us, share your experiences, and collaborate in shaping a brighter future for design in our country. Don’t forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review—it truly helps us connect and grow our community!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sam Brown (00:17):
happy new year 2025 and we're back the design prince
principles.
Pod a bit of a hiatus, butwe're ripped and rearing to go
watch out, how are you guys backby popular demand?
well, do you know what's funnyis?
I have, I reckon, in the lastweek I've just like caught up
with various people and they'vebeen like when are you guys
(00:39):
doing the podcast again, whichis cool.
So, um, actually had coffeewith andy, spain yesterday and
he he was like have you guys,andy, spain yesterday?
And he was like have you guysdone any recent episodes?
And I was like no, we haven't.
But here we go.
Gerard Dombroski (00:51):
Oh, should we get Andy on.
Sam Brown (00:53):
I reckon he's keen to jump on Yep.
He wants to have a yarn.
He'd be a good one to getaround for the pint, yeah, I
don't have any beers today.
Gerard Dombroski (01:04):
Those are the rules, mate.
I don't have any beers today.
Sam Brown (01:05):
Those are the rules, mate.
I know I'm also goingbooze-free at the moment, so
I've just got water.
Ben Sutherland (01:14):
So the bent has already gone downhill.
Sam Brown (01:17):
Yeah, I know.
Well, we've got no sponsorship.
That's what we're at, you know.
So if there's any liquorsponsors out there that want to
want to, hit us up.
That'd be great help.
The chat the chat yeah, or justany in general I reckon,
(01:37):
because that's I mean, that'swhy we started this right.
Well, that's the the initiallike idea behind us.
Starting the pod was to kind oftake those pub chats, get some
free booze.
Yeah, Get free booze.
No, it was to take those pubchats and kind of just bring
them out to the masses.
But we sort of got a bitserious in a good way.
(01:58):
But you know, you kind of wantto bring that jovial, inebriated
, slightly lubricatedchatterback.
Ben Sutherland (02:07):
Yeah, and we certainly dropped off Ender last
year, didn't we?
Hey, we're all busy, but wenever got to hear about the
Dazeen.
Your experience at the DazeenAwards.
Sam Brown (02:20):
Yeah, well, do you want me to jump straight into it
?
Ben Sutherland (02:24):
Oh yeah, if you don't mind, I want to hear about
it.
Sam Brown (02:27):
So firstly, actually, I just want to have a quick
shout out to Wellington just inreference to the Design Awards,
because I'd actually evenrealised well obviously I knew
going over there that ThomasSeabard had been long-listed for
his MK house out in Eastbourne,which was really cool because
(02:48):
we sort of had two the only twoprojects from New Zealand that
were long-listed was SeabardRoss and that MK house and us at
a rep with our Krakatau.
Both projects were inEastbourne and both projects
were by architects from ourgraduating class from Vic, nice.
Ben Sutherland (03:10):
So it was kind of a cool, kind of like a cool
like a new dawn, which waspretty sweet.
Sam Brown (03:18):
But then what I didn't realise is when I was at
the awards, the design firm thatwon designer of the year,
studio sabine marcellus, um,they're like hero image for
their design work and I thinkshe's based out of rotterdam.
I might be wrong there, but umyeah, and the her installation
(03:41):
is currently outside tapapa andthat was like the hero image um
at the awards when they went upon stage to collect their gong
and I was just like shit yeahwhat a like, what a um expose
for Wellington design that, likethree you know, highly ranked
projects Thomas Longlisted,ourselves shortlisted, and then
(04:01):
um Sabine Lasalas, winningdesigner of the year we all had
like a connection to Wellington.
So I thought that was reallysick and, you know, I tried to
reach out to the Don Post to seeif they wanted to try and, like
you know, uplift Wellingtonwellington a little bit.
(04:24):
You know something nice to talkabout in terms of wellington,
but radio silence.
So if anyone out another pitchof anyone out there's in pr and
wants to help me out, that'd begreat.
Or if anybody wants to justlike, make wellington feel a
little bit warmer and a littlebit fuzzier, um, there's a nice
little story for you is it?
Ben Sutherland (04:42):
is it not warm down there?
Sam Brown (04:44):
no, no, I just mean like the general vibe, yeah.
Ben Sutherland (04:49):
Gerard, you had a shortlist for the Dazeen
Awards yourself, didn't you?
Gerard Dombroski (04:53):
Was that the year before?
Ben Sutherland (04:55):
Yeah, I think it must have been the year before.
It was me and Ollie Booth werethe New Zealand ones.
Also both from Vic.
Sam Brown (05:03):
Was that for your piccolo?
Yeah, oh, sick Long list.
Long both also, also both fromthat.
Was that for your piccolo?
Yeah, oh, sick long list.
Gerard Dombroski (05:09):
yeah, so there we go somebody nominated for,
uh, the arc daily world buildingof the year, which is hilarious
for like a max three thousanddollar project look at.
Sam Brown (05:24):
Look at that from a Vic perspective, though.
That's pretty cool.
That's a great alumni success.
Gerard Dombroski (05:30):
Yeah, you raise a really good point there.
There actually are some prettygood things coming out of
Wellington, but I thinkWellington's done an absolutely
horrendous job of noticing itsown talent in the city.
Sam Brown (05:43):
I think they're too busy focused on the, the glum.
So I think I mean, I stillthink there's a.
There's definitely scope for astory there if anybody wants to
sort of get involved.
But anyway, um, yeah, theawards.
So I'll tell you what.
Do you know?
What's really funny is I gotback um from the awards and I
(06:04):
had lunch with nick officer fromfirst light, and that um st
helder's church renovationproject.
Um won at the nzia nationalawards, which is really awesome
yeah, I was chatting to nickabout how the awards ceremony
was and he said it was the worstawards show he'd ever been to.
(06:25):
It was basically like sittingin a school assembly, but for
architecture.
So, nzia, if you're listening,listen to what I'm about to tell
you.
Ben Sutherland (06:35):
You're just throwing Nick under the bus here
.
Sam Brown (06:37):
No, I'm not throwing Nick.
Well, Nick could stand by it.
I mean guys, you're supposed tobe out here, like you know,
uplifting architecture andpromoting it, and you just like
throw the lamest party ever andrazine's gone.
Ben Sutherland (06:54):
Who is there?
Who's doing parties these daysfor architects and designers?
No one do you guys know that?
Gerard Dombroski (07:01):
that, um uh, architecture.
Have we talked about thisbefore?
I probably have.
I bring it up all the time.
Ice Cube celebrating the Eamesyeah, but just how he delivers
architecture, like architectscould learn a lot.
Oh man Talking aboutarchitecture a lot less boring,
yeah yeah, we fall into the trap.
And you could zest it up alittle bit.
Sam Brown (07:23):
Just get somebody on the page who's not monotone
hopefully we fall into thecategory of zesty architecture
chat and not boring architecturechat we're definitely a bunch
of zesty boys, but work on thetone so anyway, back to the
awards ceremony and where I wasgoing with the NZA thing is, you
(07:46):
know, nick was telling me abouttheir very school assembly type
night, while I was telling himabout essentially what felt like
going to the Oscars ofarchitecture and design.
You know Like you arrive.
It was at Hackney Church, whichhas recently been renovated,
and there was like this bigimmersive light show by a local
(08:07):
designer and the whole thing wascatered by this London chef and
everything was sourced withinlike a max.
7k radius or something from hiskitchen and I must admit, I got
about two canapes, that wasabout it, but the drinks tray
managed to find us prettyregularly, which was, which was
(08:27):
not bad.
Um, but you know, you likeyou're basically the whole
thing's sponsored by bentley.
You're like walking the redcarpet.
There's all these likebeautiful, like concept bentley
cars you know, beside you andeverything.
You walk into this room and it'sjust packed the rafters.
I think there's like 600 peoplethere, maybe, um, full
(08:50):
international.
You know there's everybody from.
You know I asked you know,myself from new zealand met a
guy from bikini faso.
There was, you know, peoplefrom throughout europe and
america and south america, andyou know we're chatting to
architects from Spain.
I chatted to one from Portugal,one from the Czech Republic.
You know, it was pretty amazingand obviously, like on a design
(09:14):
scale, everybody is just likedressed to the nines.
So you had to come correct,that's cool.
Fortunately, I sort of thoughtabout that, thought ahead about
that, so tried to dress up alittle bit, but even then, you
know, still felt kind ofslightly underdressed.
Ben Sutherland (09:31):
Nice Did you wear like a nice house hat.
I did not rock the Jaden Smith,oh you didn't.
Sam Brown (09:37):
I didn't rock the Jaden Smith black castle on the
old building.
Apparently that's worth, like Idon't know, like four and a
half grand or something wellbefore or after before yeah, no
before ridiculous.
Just thinking about that for aminute, though I definitely vote
(09:59):
that we get Bentley on assponsors because the design
sounds epic for the podcastexactly it's just a no brainer
yeah, but yeah, like the thingis no expense spared, and like
they had DJs playing and thenthey had, like they had live
(10:22):
entertainment, this like reallybeautiful spoken word poem.
Um, I think his name waslionheart, uh, a british poet,
um did a piece which was reallycool.
And then the way that theyactually ran the awards and I
think there's something to besaid for this, particularly from
like a new zealand awards pointof view, if anybody else has
(10:43):
been to one rather than therebeing like this very long
preamble and introducing theshortlisted projects, and then
everybody gets up on stage andeveryone has a chat, you know,
has a welcome speech and allthat.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
They literally just went bam,these are the shortlist Winner.
There you go, here's your prize.
(11:05):
Go over there, take a photo,see you later.
Next one boom.
And at the time it was sort oflike whoa, this is like intense,
and you kind of like never hada moment to like revel in your
like little project up therebeing shortlisted.
But in hindsight, the actuallike exactly, bro, like the in
hindsight, the actual likeawards part of it probably only
went for like an hour and a half, but we were at the venue for
(11:27):
like five hours and the rest ofit was just a big party and it
was sick, um, and I think it'sthe way that it should be.
You obviously have this littlemoment in the sun, but you're
there celebrating with yourpeers and just like enjoying,
like architecture and design,rather than listening to.
You know every no offense, butyou know everyone's life stories
(11:47):
, yeah snappy speed that wholeset seat thing is um, really
does it for me.
Yeah, yeah that's one way to putme straight to sleep as well
you've got to be standingbecause that forces you to go
quick, otherwise you're going toget people fainting, yeah,
collapsing from tired legs orsomething I.
Ben Sutherland (12:08):
I got a haircut just before and I barely even
made it through.
My haircut are you part of thattiktok generation it's just
like when you finally, when youfinally sit still for a minute,
your body's like, oh, it must bebedtime shampooing, massaging
your head.
Yeah, exactly.
Sam Brown (12:30):
But yeah, but it was just such an amazing event, so
well run.
Like you know, it was whatyou'd expect from an awards
ceremony of an internationalscale, but it kind of exceeded
my expectations a little bit andI'm fortunate enough to get
invited to the after party,which was pretty fun.
Ben Sutherland (12:53):
Did you get invited by any famous architects
or anything?
Sam Brown (12:57):
Nah no famous architects.
Didn't manage to talk to anyfamous people.
I was trying to corner thepeople from oh man, now mine,
now I've gone mind blank ontheir names this is embarrassing
.
You didn't say bjarke was atthe after party then bjarke,
wasn't there, no um I'm gonnatrampoline with a fan but no, um
(13:23):
, anyway, sorry that wasembarrassing, kind of forgot who
I was trying to.
Um, oh why.
Why can't I think of their name?
They're like one of my favoritearchitecture snow eater, thank
you.
Oh my god, that took a long time.
Snow eater had been umshortlisted and I was hoping to
try and like have a yarns withhim, but no dice, um,
(13:45):
unfortunately.
Well, do you know what wasactually really cool?
The most of the socializing one.
Actually, one criticism of thehackney church is not enough
toilets.
Ben Sutherland (13:54):
Um, so most of the actual like networking or
like socializing was done in theline of the toilets oh nice,
you leave your business card onthe toilet seat again yeah, was
it that surreptitious?
Sam Brown (14:05):
leave it on the counter, the open home thingy.
Ben Sutherland (14:07):
Exactly, leave it on the toilet at an open home
.
Sam Brown (14:10):
It's like a throwback to episode three or something,
but like I chatted to the editorthe like main editor of Tazine
in the toilet line he's like oh,you're the guy from New Zealand
.
You've got that little liketower thingy in the bush, so I
really liked your project.
You know, it was really cool tobe able to feature that blah,
blah, blah blah, which wasawesome, you know, to have
(14:30):
someone like that kind of likeknow who you are and what you do
and stuff like that.
So I think it's just I can'tencourage people more to look
outside of the New Zealand awardscope, like, obviously NZIA
Awards 2025 are coming up.
I imagine people will be kindof focusing on those.
But shit man, lookinternationally, because that
(14:54):
kind of like peer recognitionand exposure is so much better
than what you get from just thelocal stuff.
Gerard Dombroski (15:00):
Yeah, well, I think there's something just in
that format as well, liketreating it more like a party
than an old I don't know like ahigh school auditorium hangout.
Well, you're kind of there, thepeer-to-peer conversation, like
(15:20):
that conversation with theeditor guy.
That's recognition in itselfand like we actually get to meet
people and the the communityactually gets a chance to
develop a bit more if you get toyarn with more people exactly,
yeah, it's really nice.
Sam Brown (15:36):
The support that everyone had for everyone else
as well is really, is reallyimpressive.
Gerard Dombroski (15:39):
you get to express that more in a scenario
where you actually get to hangout and have a few beers with
people.
Yeah, or you get too tired andyou want to go home immediately.
Yeah, we should definitelythrow more parties.
Yeah, just make it more of aparty, the regime party is gone,
so we need something to fillthe gap.
Ben Sutherland (15:58):
Yeah, the design principles party.
Sam Brown (16:00):
The DPP party.
Ben Sutherland (16:02):
The DPP party, or DP party, a couple of DJs.
Gerard Dombroski (16:06):
You weren't laughing.
Sam Brown (16:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, they had hot chip forNEOG sort of electro fans was
the headline act, which waspretty funny.
Hamish McLaughlin will writethat.
No, it was good, it was a goodtime, yeah.
So anyway, that's my littleDazeen recap, I think.
(16:31):
But yeah, like I said, I justcan't kind of encourage people
to enter international stuffmore.
And it's cool the doors that itopens up.
Like obviously you make thoseshort lists and then you have
since then we've beenshoulder-tapped a bunch for
articles and publications andstuff of that project.
So yeah, it's kind of nice thatit gives you a broader reach,
(16:57):
particularly international reachas well, which I think you know
us in little old New Zealandshould strive a little bit more
for.
And what I kind of liked aboutit is you know us in little old
new zealand should should strivea little bit more for, um, and
what I kind of liked about it isyou know we're classic kiwis.
Uh, you know that whole tallpoppy syndrome.
We don't want to get cut downso we don't try and stick our
heads up too high.
But when you're in that sort ofenvironment you're forced to
(17:18):
sort of just be a little bitmore kind of confident and overt
and it was quite nice, justsort of leaning into it, you
know, and being like, yeah, I'mhere because I did a thing.
This is sick you know whereasusually you're like oh, thank
you so much for recognizing me.
I'd you know, recognizing me Ididn't.
I didn't think my work was verygood, but yay, thank you,
whereas we should be a littlebit more like shit.
(17:40):
Yeah, we're the man this isawesome.
Gerard Dombroski (17:42):
The whole profession needs to be way more
like giving each other propsyeah, there's some people doing
some epic work so, like peoplewould need to be okay with
giving some props to people yeah, I feel like there's like an I
don't know.
Sam Brown (17:58):
There's an air of negativity around things and
even I even find, like readingarchitecture and zed, sometimes
like the, the underlying tone ofa lot of articles in that is
like not not necessarilynegative, but like it's not
uplifting, like a lot of thetimes it's kind of like a bit
critical.
Um, so yeah, I don't know likeobviously there's a place for
(18:22):
criticism, but I think there'salso a place for just like
buoyancy.
Gerard Dombroski (18:26):
Yeah, some positivity.
Sam Brown (18:28):
Yeah, bring the love.
Is that what 2025 is about?
You know, we've survived till25.
Now it's time to thrive.
It's a little buzz for you.
Ben Sutherland (18:47):
Nice.
Gerard Dombroski (18:49):
Get it done, you're gonna hit up.
Uh, some, you've got a few morecompetitions lined up that you
want to think of entering well,I was about to just say I was
about to get it like obviouslylike this is the you know the
upcoming awards sort likeprogram.
Sam Brown (19:03):
I think we're into the NZIA Awards again this year
and again look internationallyat stuff.
I think it's.
You know, once you sort of ripthat Band-Aid off, you realize
it's not as daunting as it seems, and why not?
You know what's the worst thingthat can happen.
People just say, oh no, wedon't really like it, and you go
(19:27):
okay, cool, it's fine.
Moving on, um, but I thinkbeyond I was gonna say I think
beyond the awards sort of chatand kind of more focusing on the
international thing.
Um, gerard, you sort of justmentioned that that word
competition, I think that'ssomething that we neglect in new
zealand and I think that's sortof where I want to try and lead
.
The conversation now is likewhere's competition?
Gerard Dombroski (19:51):
yeah, there are no competitions I have like.
The only competitions Igenerally seem to find are like
ideas, competitions, but ineurope it seems to be like a
pretty big model just forprocurement yeah, totally.
Sam Brown (20:05):
You think, like every big civic, public, commercial
building is all generally likeprocured through a competition
format and what I really likeabout that is variation.
You know you're not having thesame three or four architecture
firms that get every one of thebig civic or public projects and
they all end up looking prettygeneric and similar, where you
(20:28):
end up with a super diverse.
You know landscape and,speaking the design awards, like
they were held in london andlondon's a perfect example of
like how diverse thatarchitectural landscape is and
it's not like they went out andwent okay, you know, here you go
, you can have um, here you go,renzo piano, you can have the
(20:50):
shard, or you know, this is,this is for you like it was run
through competition and so youget something that's like insane
but, otherwise, you know,probably wouldn't have been
developed.
You know, come out of thatprocess.
Ben Sutherland (21:02):
Yeah, man they must spend a lot of time, you
know, just working oncompetitions and a lot of
unbillable hours and that sortof thing, until you kind of
finally win one, so like,although it sounds all glamorous
and must also be a huge burdenfor them yeah, risk reward, like
if you're going to play thegame yeah, but what if you're
(21:22):
just like not?
Is there such a thing as acompetition architect?
Sam Brown (21:28):
well, we like you just know how to play the game
better than everyone zaha wasthat yeah, it was that you know
a lot of these like hugearchitecture firms now started
out as paper architects.
You know like they survived inthe competition realm until they
won that one.
You know I god knows how theysurvived through those periods.
(21:52):
I'd love to see that businessmodel, but you know they did I
don't think there was a businessmodel and then you know, you
get that one commission and thenyou're away laughing, you know,
but at least, like that wholetime, you're being like creative
, you're being forced to think.
You know, think creatively, um,because that's what
competitions do.
Is they really push the barrierof the norm, which, which I
(22:14):
like- yeah, I wonder why theydon't do it in New Zealand.
Ben Sutherland (22:17):
Then there's definitely like a preferred
contractor mentality here, isn'tthere?
Sam Brown (22:23):
Probably a time cost thing, maybe I don't know.
Ben Sutherland (22:25):
I've done a couple with Chris Moller before
years and years, while I was atuni actually and they were
actually really cool.
They were down in Christchurch,well, but one was down in
christ church, one was overseasum, a lot of fun.
But yeah, you do, it's like getthrough to concept and to
develop design.
Gerard Dombroski (22:46):
you know you like there's a lot of work and
hours put into yeah, the projectI'm working on was I don know
maybe it was a little cheekybizarre in that to tender you
did a concept design.
So I think a bunch ofarchitecture firms around New
Zealand did a concept design forthis project up in Coromandel
(23:09):
that I managed to pull them off,so I won that one.
Sam Brown (23:13):
Nice.
Ben Sutherland (23:14):
Yeah, is it about who's got the best render,
do you?
Sam Brown (23:18):
know what's funny about that, ben is we?
We did that.
Oh sorry.
What's funny about that, gerardis?
We did that for a project downin in wanaka and johnny talked
about it in his professionalconversation for his
registration he got slapped onthe wrist big time.
Ben Sutherland (23:36):
Oh.
Sam Brown (23:36):
The NZRIB examiners being like you shouldn't work
for free, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, and I was sort of like
well, what are we?
Ben Sutherland (23:43):
going to do the rest of the time.
Sam Brown (23:45):
You know and like it's the whole thing about being
properly remunerated and allthat sort of jazz and we're like
well, but then how else are yougetting work?
Gerard Dombroski (23:52):
You know, but then how else are you getting
work?
Sam Brown (23:54):
Survive jobs instead.
Yeah, I mean, I think thatmaybe the reason that it doesn't
.
Maybe the reason that we don'thave the culture in here is
because it's been sort of liketamped down by the powers that
be.
Gerard Dombroski (24:04):
Yeah, I think there is that big undertone of
fear of risk or undervaluing,but man, the potential in that
form of procurement is huge, Ithink maybe there's a fear of
his career maybe there's a bigfear.
Sam Brown (24:21):
I know, I see this actually a lot in new zealand
there's a big fear of stolen ip.
You know, particularly withsome of the like bigger
architecture firms are terrifiedof people taking their ideas,
but but then Buildings look thesame, so it's like yeah, and
then you go on like QLDC e-docs,where they have every single
building consent available andlike take your pick out of
(24:42):
details, you know.
Ben Sutherland (24:44):
I think, realistically, though, it's the
same problem that it always isand it probably comes down to,
you know, liability.
Everything's about liability.
It seems to be in this country,like if you're just like
starting out a small firm andyou win a competition for a big
building, there's just huge riskinvolved.
And like, why would, forexample, the government you know
(25:07):
they're really big on likemaking sure that whoever's
involved is up to the task.
So I don't know.
I think it comes down to thatreally, at the end of the day.
Gerard Dombroski (25:16):
I think there's really easy ways around
that.
I think you just get pairedwith a big office or something
and you're like design lead orsomething.
Ben Sutherland (25:23):
Because yeah yeah, but what happens if it?
If it kind of just fallsthrough like who picks up the
slack, then you know, if oneperson can't do it, does it
filter down to the next, thesecond best project.
Like how does that work?
Does it just keep going downthe list?
Sam Brown (25:39):
I think this is the problem, ben.
You're thinking too much aboutit.
They should just run them, justlet the let people come be
creative, come up with goodideas and then sort out all the
boring bullshit later you couldlet's say I'm certainly.
Gerard Dombroski (25:51):
You did a month of pre-labour and put a
MENA's concept in and youmanaged to win.
I think you would be prettymotivated to make that work and
then follow through on theproject.
Sam Brown (26:03):
And equally, I think as well, gerard, if you didn't
like, we put together a bigtender package last year with a
build partner for somegovernment work and yeah again,
we probably spent like six weeksfull-time, three people,
working on this thing and youknow we developed six housing
(26:24):
prototypes.
That was part of this package.
We didn't win the tender.
I actually don't know who.
They never announced who didwin it, but that work's not lost
.
You know you still hold that IPand we've then, you know, been
able to, like, take thosedesigns and implement them
elsewhere.
So I don't think you need tolook at it.
(26:46):
You know the fear of it beinglike lost work or lost time or
whatever.
I think you'd look at it asopportunity, because it's giving
you a framework to think, like,think creatively with a brief
that you might not haveotherwise had access to, and
then you can just use thoseideas somewhere else.
Gerard Dombroski (27:03):
Yeah, that goes back to some of our design
conversations.
I'm a big believer that designis like a muscle, so the more
you use it, the better you'regoing to get.
So, yeah, you definitely don'tlose in that regard.
Just financially.
Ben Sutherland (27:14):
You do get the opportunity to like submit
proposals for a lot of jobs here, so what's the difference?
Sam Brown (27:22):
a lot of them don't involve design, though just do a
design.
Ben Sutherland (27:26):
Then, hey, you want to stand out just and
you're willing to work for free.
Just do a design.
You'll never regret the job.
Gerard Dombroski (27:38):
Yeah, just give me some building and set
dogs, or something.
Ben Sutherland (27:41):
Hey, you're making fun of me now because of
that suggestion, but that's whata competition is.
Sam Brown (27:49):
It's a fair point, ben, but I think also we're
talking in the realms ofgovernment work, right, you know
, like big public or civic work.
But I think there should be thecapacity for competition
elsewhere as well, like from aresidential point of view, like
if you're particularly if you'rea, you know, a high, you know,
(28:13):
budget, money, budget client.
I'd be looking at getting youknow a high, you know, budget,
money, budget client.
I'd be looking at getting youknow architects to put in like
design competition ideas.
You just don't really, and thatmay exist.
Maybe we're just too small toyou know, to be exposed to that,
but I'd be cool if it was like,you know, if there was the
capacity for that a little bitmore throughout architecture,
(28:33):
rather than just looking at thatlike government or civic or
commercial work you know therewas the capacity for that a
little bit more throughoutarchitecture, rather than just
looking at that like governmentor civic or commercial work.
Gerard Dombroski (28:38):
you know, yeah , a lot of people won't like
that idea, but at the same time,we always ask builders to do
you know, three weeks of quotingto win a job.
What's the worst of?
You can put a couple ofscribbles to a page along with a
fee proposal for a client.
Sam Brown (28:54):
Exactly.
That doesn't have to be.
I mean, like we're all, we'reclassic, like over workers,
right, you know, we're alwaysgoing to deliver more than
what's asked.
That we like.
Can you like draw a napkinsketch and we'll provide like
fucking details and one-to-onefull plans and like a scale
model and like all of theserenders and fly-throughs and
shit, um, but you know, that'swell, that's on us but like, if
(29:18):
there was a thing, though, wouldyou actually do it?
Ben Sutherland (29:20):
like?
I'm not sure I would.
I probably wouldn't.
I probably would if it was inanother country, but I probably
wouldn't here I'd be like, why,why not here?
Just because I, like, I want toget paid for my work.
Sam Brown (29:31):
But why would you not ?
Why would you do it?
And internationally though?
Ben Sutherland (29:35):
because it's a.
It's a removes that entranceinto the market, right, it's
like a removing that barrier toentry.
So you, you actually have likemarket penetration yeah, gives
you an in, yeah whereas hereit's like you're already doing
it.
You just, you know, I don'tknow, that's just my thought
anyway.
I probably wouldn't.
Maybe if it was like reallycool and interesting, you'd do
(29:58):
it for fun you could write inyour proposal that you're
submitting that.
Gerard Dombroski (30:02):
Oh, if you take this, you're always mixing
up for the concept or whatever.
Sam Brown (30:07):
So then they'd have to like it that much to pay for
the, the concept but equallylike from a client perspective,
like if there's prospectiveclients out there that are
listening to this and thinking,oh, this actually sounds kind of
like an interesting idea.
What's the harm in fronting,you know, a few thousand dollars
to run a competition, sort ofpaying everybody for their time
(30:31):
and just like gaining a breadthof ideas?
You know, because when youengage an architect directly
one-on-one, you know like we'rehiring, you know, try a
Dombrowski workshop or whatever.
You're going to get a conceptthat you develop right and you
might get one or two, but you'renot going to get like four or
(30:52):
five, so you're not going to seea four or five, so you're not
going to, you're not going tosee a big range.
You know what I mean.
But if you say, okay, speak,we're going to front like five
grand or something, um, to runthis competition, everybody that
enters, you know you'll getremunerated.
You're five people to enter.
You remunerated a thousandbucks for your little concept
whatever or just the winner getsfive grand yeah, but no, the
(31:16):
winner gets the job and fivegrand for their concept but then
, like everybody else, you knowyou, what you've got out of that
is, you've got this like hugespectrum of different design
ideas that you can then cherrypick maybe not cherry pick
elements, but you can like pickthe one that you like the most
and you might find a solutionthat you never even thought
about.
Gerard Dombroski (31:36):
So I reckon that's just like an interesting
mechanism for for gaining moresort of design breadth, um, at
the concept stage as well yeah,and probably allows more
architects to compete for work,because, yeah, yeah, I don't
know, it kind of democratizes ita bit, doesn't it?
Yeah, I think that's one thingthat I just have much more of
(31:59):
the agreement on how you,whether you feel like you're
getting remunerated or if it'stoo much for you yeah, and
you've done this really well,gerard.
Sam Brown (32:08):
But it's something that I struggle with is like, as
a small architecture firm or asa small player, it's very hard
to get a look in for like biggercontracts or larger jobs or
even government work.
You've done that really well.
I'd be interested to know howyou've gone about that.
But generally speaking, thoseof us that are like sole
(32:31):
practitioners or have a smallerfirm, it's a very, very like
hard barrier to entry to getinto doing that like larger
scale work.
Gerard Dombroski (32:40):
Incredibly hard because, especially in New
Zealand, people want to see likea similar building before
they'll trust you with yeah,trust.
Ben Sutherland (32:47):
I think that's I don't know the trust part is
probably the key there.
But like there's other ways youcan gain trust, like networking
, for example, like actuallyspending the key there.
But there's other ways you cangain trust, like networking, for
example, like actually spendingthe time to get out there and
meet the people.
Gerard Dombroski (33:00):
Getting out there and shooting some holes on
the golf course.
Ben Sutherland (33:04):
So yeah, I'm not convinced.
I think yeah, definitely forinternational and fun stuff, but
I don't know if I'd do it for,like, a residential house.
I just don't think there'senough in it.
Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (33:17):
It was a small , relatively uninteresting
project, I think.
Ben Sutherland (33:20):
It would have to be cool and like.
If it was like some sort ofexhibition project, then for
sure, but like, surely theyalready exist.
Sam Brown (33:31):
Yeah, well, to a degree I mean like think back to
, to you know, the, the papadays when they ran a big
international competition forthat and ultimately it went to a
new zealand firm, um, and youknow, at the time they did a
good job.
Ben Sutherland (33:46):
but, like the, what, what could nice?
Sam Brown (33:52):
slip that in there, just trying to, just trying to
not incriminate myself yeah, whydon't you tell us what you
really think?
I guess what I'm getting at isif we continue to do that and we
sort of have a little bit likewith the cardboard cathedral and
a little bit um with scott baserip, but, um, you know, being
(34:18):
able to bring internationaltalent into new zealand, you
know, really helps everybody inthe country as well because it
opens up our exposure.
This is going back to theconversation at the top of the
pod about, you know, the designawards and having that, you know
, being exposed to thatinternational realm of design
and architecture.
Like, I feel like we're quitecloseted and insular here
(34:40):
because we're so far away fromthe rest of the world and we
don't have that internationaltalent coming here to ply their
wares, you know yeah, the onlytalent is um our year at uni,
apparently.
Gerard Dombroski (34:52):
Oh yeah the golden year.
There was that recent umhousing competition in australia
, I think didn't yeah that umspacecraft spacecraft did really
well, yeah, that was cool.
Ben Sutherland (35:06):
I really like their project too.
Gerard Dombroski (35:09):
I think I think that was the one me and
Chloe actually competed in.
That was quite a long time agonow, I think.
Yeah, that was a little too outthere, I think.
Sam Brown (35:19):
So, gerard, you've mentioned a few competitions now
already, but where are youBecause that's another thing
that I've really struggled withOutside of bigger pie-in-the-sky
idea competitions hosted by thelikes of, like bildner, who
seem to be like theinternational standard for
design competitions, but like,where are you finding these
(35:42):
comps?
And like, where are you findinginformation about them?
Gerard Dombroski (35:45):
yeah, I did one a long time ago.
One of those I think it wassomething like bildner um, which
is like a chapel in Rwanda Ifyou scroll back far enough on my
Instagram there's like somelittle malls like that but I
only got halfway through it andthen I realized it was like an
ideas competition.
I was like, oh man, but I wasin too deep at that point.
So from there on I kind of onlyreally wanted to go into
(36:10):
projects that had I don't thathad a building outcome.
The Australian one I foundthrough a good mate, chingy, who
is here above us inarchitecture school.
He lives in Melbourne, he's anarchitect but project manager
now as well, so he found thatone.
(36:31):
So it was me, chloe and himthat worked on that one.
And then the Coromandel one wasactually just through driving
creek, so it was, I guess,through that little piccolo, and
then one of the guys who wasrunning driving creek at the
time just invited me to it.
So that was like a big invitetender.
(36:52):
Yeah, with a lot of more northisland, hamilton, auckland
architects, but I think thoseare the only ones.
So I've one real one and onelost, one lost one.
But yeah, always want to sortof I don't know, go into that
sort of work, because that'swhere I thrive.
Sam Brown (37:14):
I think I thrive on a design competition yeah, I
think, just having that freedomright like and and the pressure
a little bit as well, do youreckon that helps?
Gerard Dombroski (37:23):
yeah, yeah, yeah, like, and then, like
you're forced to come up withsomething really interesting.
I don't know you.
You're sometimes where, maybe alittle conservative with a
client that is your client andwhereas if they're not your
client you're willing to take afew more risks, but then in the
(37:44):
hope that it stands out amongsta few and gets a bit of
attention.
But yeah, sometimes that works,I think.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (37:52):
I totally know what you mean and we did a couple of
years ago.
We did one of thosebuild-no-competitions.
It was for, like, toiletsolutions, portable toilet
solutions for Everest Base Camp,and we got an honorable mention
for that, which was really cool, like a concept one, just a
competition competition.
(38:13):
But I guess what I'm getting atthere is like you're right
about that.
It makes you do something thatyou'd never, ever think about
because, like, if you would, ifsomebody came to you and said, I
want you to design a toilet foreverest base camp, you'd
probably come up with a verypractical, very like sensible,
very like realistic because ithas to be real at that point
anyway Solution.
(38:35):
But that constrains you, whereasthis, because it was just an
ideas thing.
You're just throwing shit left,right and center and some of
the concepts and solutions wereabsolutely incredible, but there
was also reality to them aswell.
I could have seen any one ofthose sort of honorable mentions
up to the winners being reallybeing built and I think, like
(38:57):
you're right about it, when itbeing like a one-on-one client
thing, you feel a little bitlike conservative.
Like breaking that shackle offis a great way to like produce
better and more varied design aswell yeah, I think you get some
incredibly interesting thingsout of projects.
Gerard Dombroski (39:17):
Yeah, I think the I don't know if you did 25
years, say, of all publicbuildings as competitions, you'd
get a pretty interesting cityat the end of that.
Sam Brown (39:27):
Oh man, imagine how cool New Zealand would look,
rather than everything justbeing like a carbon copy of the
next one.
Ben Sutherland (39:35):
Yeah, it would be pretty cool.
Sam Brown (39:39):
You know you think about some of those well,
actually like Christchurch TownHall.
Gerard Dombroski (39:46):
That was a competition Epic building, One
of my favourites.
Ben Sutherland (39:48):
Yeah, it must push the innovation and
creativity side a lot, I wouldimagine, because you know
there's just a lot more mindsworking on one thing at once, so
I guess that's a huge benefitof one for sure.
Sam Brown (40:03):
And I guess it also opens up that like phenomenon of
parallel thinking as well.
Right, you get lots ofdifferent minds working on one
solution, solution, you're goingto come up with a lot of like
different high quality designshigh quality, different ideas,
but you're also likely to getlike a lot of the same solutions
which, in a way, validates ifit's really good, validates that
(40:26):
design as well and validatesthe designers.
Ben Sutherland (40:30):
So that's probably a really good way to
like, uh, increase your brandawareness or your, you know,
your, your personal um, your,for example, like you, gerard,
get your name out there a littlebit more.
I guess, like that's a reallygood way to do it, especially if
you're producing really gooddesigns.
You know, yeah, people will belooking there.
(40:51):
There's a well.
Gerard Dombroski (40:54):
Brick Bay.
Do you remember Declan?
Declan, the last?
Yeah, that's right, that's likeprobably the best one that
they've done.
And then, if I'm a bit critical, they've potentially turned
into all the same project.
Ben Sutherland (41:08):
Yeah, I actually went there like a couple of
weeks ago.
It's still.
It's still pretty cool though.
Sam Brown (41:14):
Is the Brick Bay Folly.
That's a competition as well,though, right, yes, yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (41:20):
Sort of aimed at like early grades, yeah.
Sam Brown (41:24):
So there you go.
There's another one.
Ben Sutherland (41:26):
I mean I'm just trying to like collect yeah and
I guess, going back to the wholeexposure thing, it's probably a
good way to like find if you'relike someone who's wanting or
looking for designers,architects, et cetera it's a
good way to like find someonewith like a certain aesthetic
that you're after or at leastlike gauge a whole bunch of
people's work at one time.
(41:47):
So there's definitely like somepros for sure.
Sam Brown (41:51):
Maybe we should run a design competition.
Ben Sutherland (41:54):
Yeah, what would we build?
I don't know.
Sam Brown (41:59):
Did you guys do when we were at university?
Did you guys do the 24-hourdesign comp that me and Hamish
McLaughlin ran.
Ben Sutherland (42:07):
Yeah, we won it oh did you guys win it?
Nice yeah, Ambrose as well.
Sam Brown (42:12):
What was your idea?
Ben Sutherland (42:14):
We had the data center in the middle of the
harbor.
Sam Brown (42:17):
Ah, yeah.
Ben Sutherland (42:18):
It was an awesome data tower.
That was sick, that was fun.
Sam Brown (42:21):
So I mean, I've got the framework sitting there me
and Hamish will somewhere havethe framework for running the
design competition.
But that was epic, and I thinkthat's something that
universities I actually don'tknow if they even still do them.
I doubt it probably, but thatculture of competition was so
(42:41):
cool at university.
You kind of have 24 hours, youget minds in one room.
It's a buzz.
It's free coffee.
Ben Sutherland (42:46):
Yeah, it is fun.
Sam Brown (42:48):
A party at the end of it.
It's such a great time shouldhave that we should have the
same thing.
Ben Sutherland (42:56):
you know, we should have the same thing in
the professional realm as well Idefinitely try and recreate
that at throughout like conceptphase for sure, like when you're
like bringing everyone togetherand just like pump out a whole
bunch of ideas and see whatworks best off the bat.
I remember how fun that was onthat design competition, so
(43:18):
highly recommend doing one ofthose for sure.
Sam Brown (43:22):
And lack of sleep.
Too much caffeine the creativejuices are just flying.
Ben Sutherland (43:27):
Yeah, we just need to find someone.
So if there's anyone out therewho wants something built, we
just need to find someone.
Gerard Dombroski (43:32):
So if there's, anyone out there who wants
something built.
Well, at Driving Creek we wantto do more cabins, like more
piccolos on the hill, so there'sdefinitely an idea being
floated.
Friend Laurie keeps pushing onfor like a residency again, but
(43:54):
it's very low funding, so it'smore of the same sort of stuff
and I don't think you'll findmany people that want to do that
sort of thing for free or forvery low money.
Sam Brown (44:05):
But the opportunities are out there.
Ben Sutherland (44:08):
It depends on the incentive, right, like, if
there's not like a financial orlike a built product incentive,
then there needs to be like abrand, like an awareness, I
don't know, like a publicationor yeah, something like that,
you know.
Gerard Dombroski (44:25):
Like if that was properly advertised and
thought about more, like youcould find funding and like that
You'd find a magazine to popthat out.
Ben Sutherland (44:36):
Yeah, you'd have to find the magazine and then
bring it all together.
Sam Brown (44:38):
The problem with magazines, though, is they're
not open to the whole public.
I reckon this is where the newzealand news media falls down,
is they don't supportarchitecture at all.
They don't even reallyrecognize it as being a
profession to support, whereasit is inherent in everybody's
day-to-day life, and I thinkit's actually like the news
media, particularly newsprintmedia and online in New Zealand
(45:01):
it's their responsibility tohelp, sort of like promote all
this stuff.
You think about the NZIA Awards.
They might get a small littlebulletin, maybe even a one-pager
or something on stuff.
That's it.
I've obviously got a bee in mybonnet about, like you know,
having no recognition for theDazeen Awards, although in
(45:22):
saying that, is it Tequina's atthe World Building Festival or
something?
There is a New Zealand buildingthat's being like touted a
little bit at the moment.
It's at like the World BuildingFestival or something there's.
There is a new zealand buildingthat's being like touted a
little bit at the moment.
It's at like the world buildingfestival or something like that
.
And I know the living pa isgetting a lot of press,
obviously because it is, um, youknow it's past that living
(45:42):
building challenge.
Gerard Dombroski (45:43):
But um auckland art museum won the
world building of the year, likeoh, 10 years ago I don't know,
as we were, which is pretty likeworld building of the air or
some metric.
I'm not sure what that platformwas, so we're doing some good
stuff for sure it just needs tobe talked about eh yeah, yeah,
(46:05):
media, it's the giant failure ofarchitecture for New Zealand.
I mean, there's definitely afew people trying to push it,
but, yeah, the majorpublications don't really need
to do it.
Show us some love.
Ben Sutherland (46:24):
Well, how?
Gerard Dombroski (46:24):
would you do it?
Ben Sutherland (46:24):
differently.
Gerard Dombroski (46:26):
It's the year.
Ben Sutherland (46:28):
If you had, like , if you were running Home
Magazine, like, what would youdo different?
Because most of the content isgood.
Is it just how they're sellingit?
Maybe, like some people, justwhat's the hit?
Gerard Dombroski (46:42):
I just think this is more like a architect
specific thing, like if I wasrunning nzia or something and we
had the budget for it.
I'd just do little adverts likehow long is an ad?
30 seconds or something we justdo like a micro grand designs
on, like one of the more recentepic homes New Zealand
architects put together.
Sam Brown (47:03):
Yeah, think about, like you know well, think about
like local project type things,or even what's their thing
called kevin, who we talked to,what's their um show called
what's their?
Ben Sutherland (47:22):
uh mara archie marathon yeah, archie marathon.
Like their videos as well, yeahit's those little snippets yeah
, yeah and then having themavailable speaking of which, I
see they've posted an extracouple up there.
Where were they?
Gerard Dombroski (47:39):
Yeah, they've been in Japan.
No, there's a German one nowwhich looks pretty interesting.
Ben Sutherland (47:44):
Nice, I think.
Is it Holland?
No, I'm not sure.
I'll have to have a look again,but they look awesome.
Gerard Dombroski (47:50):
I saw on Instagram stories they were in
some bathrooms in like Chinayesterday or something.
Sam Brown (47:55):
Nice.
Gerard Dombroski (47:56):
Some epic bathrooms.
Yes, it's like a Richard Sierrasort of sculpture bathroom.
Beautiful, china's got somegood stuff.
Sam Brown (48:05):
Start competitions just for some nice public lows
yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (48:09):
Yeah, I've used the Wellington waterfront.
Dude, I love that they're goingjust as fun.
Ben Sutherland (48:15):
Quirky but weird yeah, and you get those
outcomes from competition,that's oh yeah, so it is the
netherlands and germany, and uh,june and july and they look
pretty epic, I've got to sayyeah, I think video is
accessible to everyone, like andif you make it an interestingly
(48:38):
enough video.
Gerard Dombroski (48:39):
Sometimes I think the local project videos
are a little bit slow and ifyou're not into architecture you
might find out pretty quickly.
Ben Sutherland (48:45):
But it was slightly more snappy if we got
ice cube to narrate but justlike diving a little bit deeper
in what you guys are talkingabout, should it not be up to
the own designer?
I mean, designers do all thatstuff all the time, right, like,
do you make your own littlesnappy clips and, and, um you
(49:05):
know, put together publication Ijust do one of hydroforming
going fat and thin.
Gerard Dombroski (49:12):
We just have instagram stories, don't we?
I think that's kind of what wehave in our toolkit that's most
accessible.
I've got a couple youtubevideos in edit, but I have never
really finished and they're alllike furniture based, because
those are sort of short timeframe project but like the the
podcast from the end of lastyear.
Listeners out there.
(49:36):
There's a missing episode 18.
Ben Sutherland (49:38):
19.
Sam Brown (49:41):
Which is still in edit.
Is it 19?
Gerard Dombroski (49:43):
I don't know Anyway it will come.
Sam Brown (49:45):
Eventually.
There's a good one too.
Ben Sutherland (49:51):
It's a good one.
Maybe we'll drop it at the endof this year see how much we've
improved.
Sam Brown (49:59):
Oh good, good all right, all right then do we?
Hate it or love it you've got.
Ben Sutherland (50:04):
I was gonna change my love it to tea puffer.
Nah, because you know thatsounds awesome.
So, sam, to bother hate it orlove it shit man, way to throw
me under the bus.
Hey, it's fine.
Sam Brown (50:21):
It's a personal opinion, it's totally fine I
love it as an experience and Ilove what it um encompasses and
what's inside it.
Aesthetically, the buildingfrom the outside isn't my cup of
tea.
Ben Sutherland (50:40):
Yeah, I think it's definitely like aged from
the outside for sure, it's kindof like stuck in its oh I don't
even know 90s or 2000s, I don'tknow what you'd call it.
But uh, the inside.
We did like a lot of umanalysis on the inside of the
building and I actually really,you know, quite enjoyed that,
(51:02):
enjoyed the um, the doublecolumns, yeah, yeah, no just
like the journey around theplace.
Uh, so I'm on the fenceprobably more towards not to
love it, unfortunately, but it'sit's too literal as a museum.
Sam Brown (51:20):
It's too literal for me it's.
I love it as a museum.
Gerard Dombroski (51:24):
I hate it as a building yeah, yeah, for how
public the site is.
It really does not interactwith the surroundings.
Ben Sutherland (51:33):
Yeah, the wall representing the fault line that
is yadda, yadda, yadda runningin the same direction, and this
representing that.
It's just too literal for me.
The design personally, but Iget it.
Sam Brown (51:47):
I'll put a poll up on the ground and see what people
say.
Ben Sutherland (51:53):
Hey, and get them to go visit while they're
at it.
Probably need some love.
Gerard Dombroski (52:03):
I do wonder how refined the big feather, how
that would have looked,developed into a full building.
Sam Brown (52:10):
The Afield Gary.
One, yeah, would have beeninteresting.
Gerard Dombroski (52:16):
Is that all three of them?
F Field, Gary Thompson.
Sam Brown (52:18):
Yeah, might have been , yeah.
Ben Sutherland (52:20):
What about you, Gerard?
Where do you sit?
Gerard Dombroski (52:24):
Well, yeah, it's a building, but it's
definitely a lost opportunity.
I mean, it's such a prominentsite that it really should have
interacted with all itssurroundings a lot more.
Ben Sutherland (52:39):
Yeah, that's a good point as well.
You've got the ocean rightthere.
Gerard Dombroski (52:42):
There's massive real, obvious potential
there.
Sam Brown (52:49):
Is this our first Hater of Lovett consensus?
Ben Sutherland (52:54):
I guess, yeah, there you you go.
Normally Sam's the odd one out.
That's why we made him startthis time, lovely, easy alright,
guys, bloody good.
Sam Brown (53:08):
Well, we're back, better than ever.
2025.
If anybody's got anysuggestions or ideas that they'd
like us to discuss, if anybodywants to come on have a pint
chat, architecture and designwith us, sing out, let us know.
And equally, if anybody knowsof any sponsorship opportunity
to help us edit the podcast,because it's time consuming and
(53:29):
expensive, uh, that'd be great.
Uh.
And equally, if anybody outthere is an editor and wants to
edit the podcast, then hit us upas well.
Ben Sutherland (53:39):
That would be ideal yeah yeah, nice, oh well,
I'll see you in two weeks.
Happy days, see you, boys, youlater.
happy new year 2025 and we're back the design prince
principles.
Pod a bit of a hiatus, butwe're ripped and rearing to go
watch out, how are you guys backby popular demand?
well, do you know what's funnyis?
I have, I reckon, in the lastweek I've just like caught up
with various people and they'vebeen like when are you guys
(00:39):
doing the podcast again, whichis cool.
So, um, actually had coffeewith andy, spain yesterday and
he he was like have you guys,andy, spain yesterday?
And he was like have you guysdone any recent episodes?
And I was like no, we haven't.
But here we go.
Gerard Dombroski (00:51):
Oh, should we get Andy on.
Sam Brown (00:53):
I reckon he's keen to jump on Yep.
He wants to have a yarn.
He'd be a good one to getaround for the pint, yeah, I
don't have any beers today.
Gerard Dombroski (01:04):
Those are the rules, mate.
I don't have any beers today.
Sam Brown (01:05):
Those are the rules, mate.
I know I'm also goingbooze-free at the moment, so
I've just got water.
Ben Sutherland (01:14):
So the bent has already gone downhill.
Sam Brown (01:17):
Yeah, I know.
Well, we've got no sponsorship.
That's what we're at, you know.
So if there's any liquorsponsors out there that want to
want to, hit us up.
That'd be great help.
The chat the chat yeah, or justany in general I reckon,
(01:37):
because that's I mean, that'swhy we started this right.
Well, that's the the initiallike idea behind us.
Starting the pod was to kind oftake those pub chats, get some
free booze.
Yeah, Get free booze.
No, it was to take those pubchats and kind of just bring
them out to the masses.
But we sort of got a bitserious in a good way.
(01:58):
But you know, you kind of wantto bring that jovial, inebriated
, slightly lubricatedchatterback.
Ben Sutherland (02:07):
Yeah, and we certainly dropped off Ender last
year, didn't we?
Hey, we're all busy, but wenever got to hear about the
Dazeen.
Your experience at the DazeenAwards.
Sam Brown (02:20):
Yeah, well, do you want me to jump straight into it
?
Ben Sutherland (02:24):
Oh yeah, if you don't mind, I want to hear about
it.
Sam Brown (02:27):
So firstly, actually, I just want to have a quick
shout out to Wellington just inreference to the Design Awards,
because I'd actually evenrealised well obviously I knew
going over there that ThomasSeabard had been long-listed for
his MK house out in Eastbourne,which was really cool because
(02:48):
we sort of had two the only twoprojects from New Zealand that
were long-listed was SeabardRoss and that MK house and us at
a rep with our Krakatau.
Both projects were inEastbourne and both projects
were by architects from ourgraduating class from Vic, nice.
Ben Sutherland (03:10):
So it was kind of a cool, kind of like a cool
like a new dawn, which waspretty sweet.
Sam Brown (03:18):
But then what I didn't realise is when I was at
the awards, the design firm thatwon designer of the year,
studio sabine marcellus, um,they're like hero image for
their design work and I thinkshe's based out of rotterdam.
I might be wrong there, but umyeah, and the her installation
(03:41):
is currently outside tapapa andthat was like the hero image um
at the awards when they went upon stage to collect their gong
and I was just like shit yeahwhat a like, what a um expose
for Wellington design that, likethree you know, highly ranked
projects Thomas Longlisted,ourselves shortlisted, and then
(04:01):
um Sabine Lasalas, winningdesigner of the year we all had
like a connection to Wellington.
So I thought that was reallysick and, you know, I tried to
reach out to the Don Post to seeif they wanted to try and, like
you know, uplift Wellingtonwellington a little bit.
(04:24):
You know something nice to talkabout in terms of wellington,
but radio silence.
So if anyone out another pitchof anyone out there's in pr and
wants to help me out, that'd begreat.
Or if anybody wants to justlike, make wellington feel a
little bit warmer and a littlebit fuzzier, um, there's a nice
little story for you is it?
Ben Sutherland (04:42):
is it not warm down there?
Sam Brown (04:44):
no, no, I just mean like the general vibe, yeah.
Ben Sutherland (04:49):
Gerard, you had a shortlist for the Dazeen
Awards yourself, didn't you?
Gerard Dombroski (04:53):
Was that the year before?
Ben Sutherland (04:55):
Yeah, I think it must have been the year before.
It was me and Ollie Booth werethe New Zealand ones.
Also both from Vic.
Sam Brown (05:03):
Was that for your piccolo?
Yeah, oh, sick Long list.
Long both also, also both fromthat.
Was that for your piccolo?
Yeah, oh, sick long list.
Gerard Dombroski (05:09):
yeah, so there we go somebody nominated for,
uh, the arc daily world buildingof the year, which is hilarious
for like a max three thousanddollar project look at.
Sam Brown (05:24):
Look at that from a Vic perspective, though.
That's pretty cool.
That's a great alumni success.
Gerard Dombroski (05:30):
Yeah, you raise a really good point there.
There actually are some prettygood things coming out of
Wellington, but I thinkWellington's done an absolutely
horrendous job of noticing itsown talent in the city.
Sam Brown (05:43):
I think they're too busy focused on the, the glum.
So I think I mean, I stillthink there's a.
There's definitely scope for astory there if anybody wants to
sort of get involved.
But anyway, um, yeah, theawards.
So I'll tell you what.
Do you know?
What's really funny is I gotback um from the awards and I
(06:04):
had lunch with nick officer fromfirst light, and that um st
helder's church renovationproject.
Um won at the nzia nationalawards, which is really awesome
yeah, I was chatting to nickabout how the awards ceremony
was and he said it was the worstawards show he'd ever been to.
(06:25):
It was basically like sittingin a school assembly, but for
architecture.
So, nzia, if you're listening,listen to what I'm about to tell
you.
Ben Sutherland (06:35):
You're just throwing Nick under the bus here
.
Sam Brown (06:37):
No, I'm not throwing Nick.
Well, Nick could stand by it.
I mean guys, you're supposed tobe out here, like you know,
uplifting architecture andpromoting it, and you just like
throw the lamest party ever andrazine's gone.
Ben Sutherland (06:54):
Who is there?
Who's doing parties these daysfor architects and designers?
No one do you guys know that?
Gerard Dombroski (07:01):
that, um uh, architecture.
Have we talked about thisbefore?
I probably have.
I bring it up all the time.
Ice Cube celebrating the Eamesyeah, but just how he delivers
architecture, like architectscould learn a lot.
Oh man Talking aboutarchitecture a lot less boring,
yeah yeah, we fall into the trap.
And you could zest it up alittle bit.
Sam Brown (07:23):
Just get somebody on the page who's not monotone
hopefully we fall into thecategory of zesty architecture
chat and not boring architecturechat we're definitely a bunch
of zesty boys, but work on thetone so anyway, back to the
awards ceremony and where I wasgoing with the NZA thing is, you
(07:46):
know, nick was telling me abouttheir very school assembly type
night, while I was telling himabout essentially what felt like
going to the Oscars ofarchitecture and design.
You know Like you arrive.
It was at Hackney Church, whichhas recently been renovated,
and there was like this bigimmersive light show by a local
(08:07):
designer and the whole thing wascatered by this London chef and
everything was sourced withinlike a max.
7k radius or something from hiskitchen and I must admit, I got
about two canapes, that wasabout it, but the drinks tray
managed to find us prettyregularly, which was, which was
(08:27):
not bad.
Um, but you know, you likeyou're basically the whole
thing's sponsored by bentley.
You're like walking the redcarpet.
There's all these likebeautiful, like concept bentley
cars you know, beside you andeverything.
You walk into this room and it'sjust packed the rafters.
I think there's like 600 peoplethere, maybe, um, full
(08:50):
international.
You know there's everybody from.
You know I asked you know,myself from new zealand met a
guy from bikini faso.
There was, you know, peoplefrom throughout europe and
america and south america, andyou know we're chatting to
architects from Spain.
I chatted to one from Portugal,one from the Czech Republic.
You know, it was pretty amazingand obviously, like on a design
(09:14):
scale, everybody is just likedressed to the nines.
So you had to come correct,that's cool.
Fortunately, I sort of thoughtabout that, thought ahead about
that, so tried to dress up alittle bit, but even then, you
know, still felt kind ofslightly underdressed.
Ben Sutherland (09:31):
Nice Did you wear like a nice house hat.
I did not rock the Jaden Smith,oh you didn't.
Sam Brown (09:37):
I didn't rock the Jaden Smith black castle on the
old building.
Apparently that's worth, like Idon't know, like four and a
half grand or something wellbefore or after before yeah, no
before ridiculous.
Just thinking about that for aminute, though I definitely vote
(09:59):
that we get Bentley on assponsors because the design
sounds epic for the podcastexactly it's just a no brainer
yeah, but yeah, like the thingis no expense spared, and like
they had DJs playing and thenthey had, like they had live
(10:22):
entertainment, this like reallybeautiful spoken word poem.
Um, I think his name waslionheart, uh, a british poet,
um did a piece which was reallycool.
And then the way that theyactually ran the awards and I
think there's something to besaid for this, particularly from
like a new zealand awards pointof view, if anybody else has
(10:43):
been to one rather than therebeing like this very long
preamble and introducing theshortlisted projects, and then
everybody gets up on stage andeveryone has a chat, you know,
has a welcome speech and allthat.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
They literally just went bam,these are the shortlist Winner.
There you go, here's your prize.
(11:05):
Go over there, take a photo,see you later.
Next one boom.
And at the time it was sort oflike whoa, this is like intense,
and you kind of like never hada moment to like revel in your
like little project up therebeing shortlisted.
But in hindsight, the actuallike exactly, bro, like the in
hindsight, the actual likeawards part of it probably only
went for like an hour and a half, but we were at the venue for
(11:27):
like five hours and the rest ofit was just a big party and it
was sick, um, and I think it'sthe way that it should be.
You obviously have this littlemoment in the sun, but you're
there celebrating with yourpeers and just like enjoying,
like architecture and design,rather than listening to.
You know every no offense, butyou know everyone's life stories
(11:47):
, yeah snappy speed that wholeset seat thing is um, really
does it for me.
Yeah, yeah that's one way to putme straight to sleep as well
you've got to be standingbecause that forces you to go
quick, otherwise you're going toget people fainting, yeah,
collapsing from tired legs orsomething I.
Ben Sutherland (12:08):
I got a haircut just before and I barely even
made it through.
My haircut are you part of thattiktok generation it's just
like when you finally, when youfinally sit still for a minute,
your body's like, oh, it must bebedtime shampooing, massaging
your head.
Yeah, exactly.
Sam Brown (12:30):
But yeah, but it was just such an amazing event, so
well run.
Like you know, it was whatyou'd expect from an awards
ceremony of an internationalscale, but it kind of exceeded
my expectations a little bit andI'm fortunate enough to get
invited to the after party,which was pretty fun.
Ben Sutherland (12:53):
Did you get invited by any famous architects
or anything?
Sam Brown (12:57):
Nah no famous architects.
Didn't manage to talk to anyfamous people.
I was trying to corner thepeople from oh man, now mine,
now I've gone mind blank ontheir names this is embarrassing
.
You didn't say bjarke was atthe after party then bjarke,
wasn't there, no um I'm gonnatrampoline with a fan but no, um
(13:23):
, anyway, sorry that wasembarrassing, kind of forgot who
I was trying to.
Um, oh why.
Why can't I think of their name?
They're like one of my favoritearchitecture snow eater, thank
you.
Oh my god, that took a long time.
Snow eater had been umshortlisted and I was hoping to
try and like have a yarns withhim, but no dice, um,
(13:45):
unfortunately.
Well, do you know what wasactually really cool?
The most of the socializing one.
Actually, one criticism of thehackney church is not enough
toilets.
Ben Sutherland (13:54):
Um, so most of the actual like networking or
like socializing was done in theline of the toilets oh nice,
you leave your business card onthe toilet seat again yeah, was
it that surreptitious?
Sam Brown (14:05):
leave it on the counter, the open home thingy.
Ben Sutherland (14:07):
Exactly, leave it on the toilet at an open home
.
Sam Brown (14:10):
It's like a throwback to episode three or something,
but like I chatted to the editorthe like main editor of Tazine
in the toilet line he's like oh,you're the guy from New Zealand
.
You've got that little liketower thingy in the bush, so I
really liked your project.
You know, it was really cool tobe able to feature that blah,
blah, blah blah, which wasawesome, you know, to have
(14:30):
someone like that kind of likeknow who you are and what you do
and stuff like that.
So I think it's just I can'tencourage people more to look
outside of the New Zealand awardscope, like, obviously NZIA
Awards 2025 are coming up.
I imagine people will be kindof focusing on those.
But shit man, lookinternationally, because that
(14:54):
kind of like peer recognitionand exposure is so much better
than what you get from just thelocal stuff.
Gerard Dombroski (15:00):
Yeah, well, I think there's something just in
that format as well, liketreating it more like a party
than an old I don't know like ahigh school auditorium hangout.
Well, you're kind of there, thepeer-to-peer conversation, like
(15:20):
that conversation with theeditor guy.
That's recognition in itselfand like we actually get to meet
people and the the communityactually gets a chance to
develop a bit more if you get toyarn with more people exactly,
yeah, it's really nice.
Sam Brown (15:36):
The support that everyone had for everyone else
as well is really, is reallyimpressive.
Gerard Dombroski (15:39):
you get to express that more in a scenario
where you actually get to hangout and have a few beers with
people.
Yeah, or you get too tired andyou want to go home immediately.
Yeah, we should definitelythrow more parties.
Yeah, just make it more of aparty, the regime party is gone,
so we need something to fillthe gap.
Ben Sutherland (15:58):
Yeah, the design principles party.
Sam Brown (16:00):
The DPP party.
Ben Sutherland (16:02):
The DPP party, or DP party, a couple of DJs.
Gerard Dombroski (16:06):
You weren't laughing.
Sam Brown (16:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, they had hot chip forNEOG sort of electro fans was
the headline act, which waspretty funny.
Hamish McLaughlin will writethat.
No, it was good, it was a goodtime, yeah.
So anyway, that's my littleDazeen recap, I think.
(16:31):
But yeah, like I said, I justcan't kind of encourage people
to enter international stuffmore.
And it's cool the doors that itopens up.
Like obviously you make thoseshort lists and then you have
since then we've beenshoulder-tapped a bunch for
articles and publications andstuff of that project.
So yeah, it's kind of nice thatit gives you a broader reach,
(16:57):
particularly international reachas well, which I think you know
us in little old New Zealandshould strive a little bit more
for.
And what I kind of liked aboutit is you know us in little old
new zealand should should strivea little bit more for, um, and
what I kind of liked about it isyou know we're classic kiwis.
Uh, you know that whole tallpoppy syndrome.
We don't want to get cut downso we don't try and stick our
heads up too high.
But when you're in that sort ofenvironment you're forced to
(17:18):
sort of just be a little bitmore kind of confident and overt
and it was quite nice, justsort of leaning into it, you
know, and being like, yeah, I'mhere because I did a thing.
This is sick you know whereasusually you're like oh, thank
you so much for recognizing me.
I'd you know, recognizing me Ididn't.
I didn't think my work was verygood, but yay, thank you,
whereas we should be a littlebit more like shit.
(17:40):
Yeah, we're the man this isawesome.
Gerard Dombroski (17:42):
The whole profession needs to be way more
like giving each other propsyeah, there's some people doing
some epic work so, like peoplewould need to be okay with
giving some props to people yeah, I feel like there's like an I
don't know.
Sam Brown (17:58):
There's an air of negativity around things and
even I even find, like readingarchitecture and zed, sometimes
like the, the underlying tone ofa lot of articles in that is
like not not necessarilynegative, but like it's not
uplifting, like a lot of thetimes it's kind of like a bit
critical.
Um, so yeah, I don't know likeobviously there's a place for
(18:22):
criticism, but I think there'salso a place for just like
buoyancy.
Gerard Dombroski (18:26):
Yeah, some positivity.
Sam Brown (18:28):
Yeah, bring the love.
Is that what 2025 is about?
You know, we've survived till25.
Now it's time to thrive.
It's a little buzz for you.
Ben Sutherland (18:47):
Nice.
Gerard Dombroski (18:49):
Get it done, you're gonna hit up.
Uh, some, you've got a few morecompetitions lined up that you
want to think of entering well,I was about to just say I was
about to get it like obviouslylike this is the you know the
upcoming awards sort likeprogram.
Sam Brown (19:03):
I think we're into the NZIA Awards again this year
and again look internationallyat stuff.
I think it's.
You know, once you sort of ripthat Band-Aid off, you realize
it's not as daunting as it seems, and why not?
You know what's the worst thingthat can happen.
People just say, oh no, wedon't really like it, and you go
(19:27):
okay, cool, it's fine.
Moving on, um, but I thinkbeyond I was gonna say I think
beyond the awards sort of chatand kind of more focusing on the
international thing.
Um, gerard, you sort of justmentioned that that word
competition, I think that'ssomething that we neglect in new
zealand and I think that's sortof where I want to try and lead
.
The conversation now is likewhere's competition?
Gerard Dombroski (19:51):
yeah, there are no competitions I have like.
The only competitions Igenerally seem to find are like
ideas, competitions, but ineurope it seems to be like a
pretty big model just forprocurement yeah, totally.
Sam Brown (20:05):
You think, like every big civic, public, commercial
building is all generally likeprocured through a competition
format and what I really likeabout that is variation.
You know you're not having thesame three or four architecture
firms that get every one of thebig civic or public projects and
they all end up looking prettygeneric and similar, where you
(20:28):
end up with a super diverse.
You know landscape and,speaking the design awards, like
they were held in london andlondon's a perfect example of
like how diverse thatarchitectural landscape is and
it's not like they went out andwent okay, you know, here you go
, you can have um, here you go,renzo piano, you can have the
(20:50):
shard, or you know, this is,this is for you like it was run
through competition and so youget something that's like insane
but, otherwise, you know,probably wouldn't have been
developed.
You know, come out of thatprocess.
Ben Sutherland (21:02):
Yeah, man they must spend a lot of time, you
know, just working oncompetitions and a lot of
unbillable hours and that sortof thing, until you kind of
finally win one, so like,although it sounds all glamorous
and must also be a huge burdenfor them yeah, risk reward, like
if you're going to play thegame yeah, but what if you're
(21:22):
just like not?
Is there such a thing as acompetition architect?
Sam Brown (21:28):
well, we like you just know how to play the game
better than everyone zaha wasthat yeah, it was that you know
a lot of these like hugearchitecture firms now started
out as paper architects.
You know like they survived inthe competition realm until they
won that one.
You know I god knows how theysurvived through those periods.
(21:52):
I'd love to see that businessmodel, but you know they did I
don't think there was a businessmodel and then you know, you
get that one commission and thenyou're away laughing, you know,
but at least, like that wholetime, you're being like creative
, you're being forced to think.
You know, think creatively, um,because that's what
competitions do.
Is they really push the barrierof the norm, which, which I
(22:14):
like- yeah, I wonder why theydon't do it in New Zealand.
Ben Sutherland (22:17):
Then there's definitely like a preferred
contractor mentality here, isn'tthere?
Sam Brown (22:23):
Probably a time cost thing, maybe I don't know.
Ben Sutherland (22:25):
I've done a couple with Chris Moller before
years and years, while I was atuni actually and they were
actually really cool.
They were down in Christchurch,well, but one was down in
christ church, one was overseasum, a lot of fun.
But yeah, you do, it's like getthrough to concept and to
develop design.
Gerard Dombroski (22:46):
you know you like there's a lot of work and
hours put into yeah, the projectI'm working on was I don know
maybe it was a little cheekybizarre in that to tender you
did a concept design.
So I think a bunch ofarchitecture firms around New
Zealand did a concept design forthis project up in Coromandel
(23:09):
that I managed to pull them off,so I won that one.
Sam Brown (23:13):
Nice.
Ben Sutherland (23:14):
Yeah, is it about who's got the best render,
do you?
Sam Brown (23:18):
know what's funny about that, ben is we?
We did that.
Oh sorry.
What's funny about that, gerardis?
We did that for a project downin in wanaka and johnny talked
about it in his professionalconversation for his
registration he got slapped onthe wrist big time.
Ben Sutherland (23:36):
Oh.
Sam Brown (23:36):
The NZRIB examiners being like you shouldn't work
for free, blah, blah, blah, blahblah, and I was sort of like
well, what are we?
Ben Sutherland (23:43):
going to do the rest of the time.
Sam Brown (23:45):
You know and like it's the whole thing about being
properly remunerated and allthat sort of jazz and we're like
well, but then how else are yougetting work?
Gerard Dombroski (23:52):
You know, but then how else are you getting
work?
Sam Brown (23:54):
Survive jobs instead.
Yeah, I mean, I think thatmaybe the reason that it doesn't
.
Maybe the reason that we don'thave the culture in here is
because it's been sort of liketamped down by the powers that
be.
Gerard Dombroski (24:04):
Yeah, I think there is that big undertone of
fear of risk or undervaluing,but man, the potential in that
form of procurement is huge, Ithink maybe there's a fear of
his career maybe there's a bigfear.
Sam Brown (24:21):
I know, I see this actually a lot in new zealand
there's a big fear of stolen ip.
You know, particularly withsome of the like bigger
architecture firms are terrifiedof people taking their ideas,
but but then Buildings look thesame, so it's like yeah, and
then you go on like QLDC e-docs,where they have every single
building consent available andlike take your pick out of
(24:42):
details, you know.
Ben Sutherland (24:44):
I think, realistically, though, it's the
same problem that it always isand it probably comes down to,
you know, liability.
Everything's about liability.
It seems to be in this country,like if you're just like
starting out a small firm andyou win a competition for a big
building, there's just huge riskinvolved.
And like, why would, forexample, the government you know
(25:07):
they're really big on likemaking sure that whoever's
involved is up to the task.
So I don't know.
I think it comes down to thatreally, at the end of the day.
Gerard Dombroski (25:16):
I think there's really easy ways around
that.
I think you just get pairedwith a big office or something
and you're like design lead orsomething.
Ben Sutherland (25:23):
Because yeah yeah, but what happens if it?
If it kind of just fallsthrough like who picks up the
slack, then you know, if oneperson can't do it, does it
filter down to the next, thesecond best project.
Like how does that work?
Does it just keep going downthe list?
Sam Brown (25:39):
I think this is the problem, ben.
You're thinking too much aboutit.
They should just run them, justlet the let people come be
creative, come up with goodideas and then sort out all the
boring bullshit later you couldlet's say I'm certainly.
Gerard Dombroski (25:51):
You did a month of pre-labour and put a
MENA's concept in and youmanaged to win.
I think you would be prettymotivated to make that work and
then follow through on theproject.
Sam Brown (26:03):
And equally, I think as well, gerard, if you didn't
like, we put together a bigtender package last year with a
build partner for somegovernment work and yeah again,
we probably spent like six weeksfull-time, three people,
working on this thing and youknow we developed six housing
(26:24):
prototypes.
That was part of this package.
We didn't win the tender.
I actually don't know who.
They never announced who didwin it, but that work's not lost
.
You know you still hold that IPand we've then, you know, been
able to, like, take thosedesigns and implement them
elsewhere.
So I don't think you need tolook at it.
(26:46):
You know the fear of it beinglike lost work or lost time or
whatever.
I think you'd look at it asopportunity, because it's giving
you a framework to think, like,think creatively with a brief
that you might not haveotherwise had access to, and
then you can just use thoseideas somewhere else.
Gerard Dombroski (27:03):
Yeah, that goes back to some of our design
conversations.
I'm a big believer that designis like a muscle, so the more
you use it, the better you'regoing to get.
So, yeah, you definitely don'tlose in that regard.
Just financially.
Ben Sutherland (27:14):
You do get the opportunity to like submit
proposals for a lot of jobs here, so what's the difference?
Sam Brown (27:22):
a lot of them don't involve design, though just do a
design.
Ben Sutherland (27:26):
Then, hey, you want to stand out just and
you're willing to work for free.
Just do a design.
You'll never regret the job.
Gerard Dombroski (27:38):
Yeah, just give me some building and set
dogs, or something.
Ben Sutherland (27:41):
Hey, you're making fun of me now because of
that suggestion, but that's whata competition is.
Sam Brown (27:49):
It's a fair point, ben, but I think also we're
talking in the realms ofgovernment work, right, you know
, like big public or civic work.
But I think there should be thecapacity for competition
elsewhere as well, like from aresidential point of view, like
if you're particularly if you'rea, you know, a high, you know,
(28:13):
budget, money, budget client.
I'd be looking at getting youknow a high, you know, budget,
money, budget client.
I'd be looking at getting youknow architects to put in like
design competition ideas.
You just don't really, and thatmay exist.
Maybe we're just too small toyou know, to be exposed to that,
but I'd be cool if it was like,you know, if there was the
capacity for that a little bitmore throughout architecture,
(28:33):
rather than just looking at thatlike government or civic or
commercial work you know therewas the capacity for that a
little bit more throughoutarchitecture, rather than just
looking at that like governmentor civic or commercial work.
Gerard Dombroski (28:38):
you know, yeah , a lot of people won't like
that idea, but at the same time,we always ask builders to do
you know, three weeks of quotingto win a job.
What's the worst of?
You can put a couple ofscribbles to a page along with a
fee proposal for a client.
Sam Brown (28:54):
Exactly.
That doesn't have to be.
I mean, like we're all, we'reclassic, like over workers,
right, you know, we're alwaysgoing to deliver more than
what's asked.
That we like.
Can you like draw a napkinsketch and we'll provide like
fucking details and one-to-onefull plans and like a scale
model and like all of theserenders and fly-throughs and
shit, um, but you know, that'swell, that's on us but like, if
(29:18):
there was a thing, though, wouldyou actually do it?
Ben Sutherland (29:20):
like?
I'm not sure I would.
I probably wouldn't.
I probably would if it was inanother country, but I probably
wouldn't here I'd be like, why,why not here?
Just because I, like, I want toget paid for my work.
Sam Brown (29:31):
But why would you not ?
Why would you do it?
And internationally though?
Ben Sutherland (29:35):
because it's a.
It's a removes that entranceinto the market, right, it's
like a removing that barrier toentry.
So you, you actually have likemarket penetration yeah, gives
you an in, yeah whereas hereit's like you're already doing
it.
You just, you know, I don'tknow, that's just my thought
anyway.
I probably wouldn't.
Maybe if it was like reallycool and interesting, you'd do
(29:58):
it for fun you could write inyour proposal that you're
submitting that.
Gerard Dombroski (30:02):
Oh, if you take this, you're always mixing
up for the concept or whatever.
Sam Brown (30:07):
So then they'd have to like it that much to pay for
the, the concept but equallylike from a client perspective,
like if there's prospectiveclients out there that are
listening to this and thinking,oh, this actually sounds kind of
like an interesting idea.
What's the harm in fronting,you know, a few thousand dollars
to run a competition, sort ofpaying everybody for their time
(30:31):
and just like gaining a breadthof ideas?
You know, because when youengage an architect directly
one-on-one, you know like we'rehiring, you know, try a
Dombrowski workshop or whatever.
You're going to get a conceptthat you develop right and you
might get one or two, but you'renot going to get like four or
(30:52):
five, so you're not going to seea four or five, so you're not
going to, you're not going tosee a big range.
You know what I mean.
But if you say, okay, speak,we're going to front like five
grand or something, um, to runthis competition, everybody that
enters, you know you'll getremunerated.
You're five people to enter.
You remunerated a thousandbucks for your little concept
whatever or just the winner getsfive grand yeah, but no, the
(31:16):
winner gets the job and fivegrand for their concept but then
, like everybody else, you knowyou, what you've got out of that
is, you've got this like hugespectrum of different design
ideas that you can then cherrypick maybe not cherry pick
elements, but you can like pickthe one that you like the most
and you might find a solutionthat you never even thought
about.
Gerard Dombroski (31:36):
So I reckon that's just like an interesting
mechanism for for gaining moresort of design breadth, um, at
the concept stage as well yeah,and probably allows more
architects to compete for work,because, yeah, yeah, I don't
know, it kind of democratizes ita bit, doesn't it?
Yeah, I think that's one thingthat I just have much more of
(31:59):
the agreement on how you,whether you feel like you're
getting remunerated or if it'stoo much for you yeah, and
you've done this really well,gerard.
Sam Brown (32:08):
But it's something that I struggle with is like, as
a small architecture firm or asa small player, it's very hard
to get a look in for like biggercontracts or larger jobs or
even government work.
You've done that really well.
I'd be interested to know howyou've gone about that.
But generally speaking, thoseof us that are like sole
(32:31):
practitioners or have a smallerfirm, it's a very, very like
hard barrier to entry to getinto doing that like larger
scale work.
Gerard Dombroski (32:40):
Incredibly hard because, especially in New
Zealand, people want to see likea similar building before
they'll trust you with yeah,trust.
Ben Sutherland (32:47):
I think that's I don't know the trust part is
probably the key there.
But like there's other ways youcan gain trust, like networking
, for example, like actuallyspending the key there.
But there's other ways you cangain trust, like networking, for
example, like actually spendingthe time to get out there and
meet the people.
Gerard Dombroski (33:00):
Getting out there and shooting some holes on
the golf course.
Ben Sutherland (33:04):
So yeah, I'm not convinced.
I think yeah, definitely forinternational and fun stuff, but
I don't know if I'd do it for,like, a residential house.
I just don't think there'senough in it.
Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (33:17):
It was a small , relatively uninteresting
project, I think.
Ben Sutherland (33:20):
It would have to be cool and like.
If it was like some sort ofexhibition project, then for
sure, but like, surely theyalready exist.
Sam Brown (33:31):
Yeah, well, to a degree I mean like think back to
, to you know, the, the papadays when they ran a big
international competition forthat and ultimately it went to a
new zealand firm, um, and youknow, at the time they did a
good job.
Ben Sutherland (33:46):
but, like the, what, what could nice?
Sam Brown (33:52):
slip that in there, just trying to, just trying to
not incriminate myself yeah, whydon't you tell us what you
really think?
I guess what I'm getting at isif we continue to do that and we
sort of have a little bit likewith the cardboard cathedral and
a little bit um with scott baserip, but, um, you know, being
(34:18):
able to bring internationaltalent into new zealand, you
know, really helps everybody inthe country as well because it
opens up our exposure.
This is going back to theconversation at the top of the
pod about, you know, the designawards and having that, you know
, being exposed to thatinternational realm of design
and architecture.
Like, I feel like we're quitecloseted and insular here
(34:40):
because we're so far away fromthe rest of the world and we
don't have that internationaltalent coming here to ply their
wares, you know yeah, the onlytalent is um our year at uni,
apparently.
Gerard Dombroski (34:52):
Oh yeah the golden year.
There was that recent umhousing competition in australia
, I think didn't yeah that umspacecraft spacecraft did really
well, yeah, that was cool.
Ben Sutherland (35:06):
I really like their project too.
Gerard Dombroski (35:09):
I think I think that was the one me and
Chloe actually competed in.
That was quite a long time agonow, I think.
Yeah, that was a little too outthere, I think.
Sam Brown (35:19):
So, gerard, you've mentioned a few competitions now
already, but where are youBecause that's another thing
that I've really struggled withOutside of bigger pie-in-the-sky
idea competitions hosted by thelikes of, like bildner, who
seem to be like theinternational standard for
design competitions, but like,where are you finding these
(35:42):
comps?
And like, where are you findinginformation about them?
Gerard Dombroski (35:45):
yeah, I did one a long time ago.
One of those I think it wassomething like bildner um, which
is like a chapel in Rwanda Ifyou scroll back far enough on my
Instagram there's like somelittle malls like that but I
only got halfway through it andthen I realized it was like an
ideas competition.
I was like, oh man, but I wasin too deep at that point.
So from there on I kind of onlyreally wanted to go into
(36:10):
projects that had I don't thathad a building outcome.
The Australian one I foundthrough a good mate, chingy, who
is here above us inarchitecture school.
He lives in Melbourne, he's anarchitect but project manager
now as well, so he found thatone.
(36:31):
So it was me, chloe and himthat worked on that one.
And then the Coromandel one wasactually just through driving
creek, so it was, I guess,through that little piccolo, and
then one of the guys who wasrunning driving creek at the
time just invited me to it.
So that was like a big invitetender.
(36:52):
Yeah, with a lot of more northisland, hamilton, auckland
architects, but I think thoseare the only ones.
So I've one real one and onelost, one lost one.
But yeah, always want to sortof I don't know, go into that
sort of work, because that'swhere I thrive.
Sam Brown (37:14):
I think I thrive on a design competition yeah, I
think, just having that freedomright like and and the pressure
a little bit as well, do youreckon that helps?
Gerard Dombroski (37:23):
yeah, yeah, yeah, like, and then, like
you're forced to come up withsomething really interesting.
I don't know you.
You're sometimes where, maybe alittle conservative with a
client that is your client andwhereas if they're not your
client you're willing to take afew more risks, but then in the
(37:44):
hope that it stands out amongsta few and gets a bit of
attention.
But yeah, sometimes that works,I think.
Yeah.
Sam Brown (37:52):
I totally know what you mean and we did a couple of
years ago.
We did one of thosebuild-no-competitions.
It was for, like, toiletsolutions, portable toilet
solutions for Everest Base Camp,and we got an honorable mention
for that, which was really cool, like a concept one, just a
competition competition.
(38:13):
But I guess what I'm getting atthere is like you're right
about that.
It makes you do something thatyou'd never, ever think about
because, like, if you would, ifsomebody came to you and said, I
want you to design a toilet foreverest base camp, you'd
probably come up with a verypractical, very like sensible,
very like realistic because ithas to be real at that point
anyway Solution.
(38:35):
But that constrains you, whereasthis, because it was just an
ideas thing.
You're just throwing shit left,right and center and some of
the concepts and solutions wereabsolutely incredible, but there
was also reality to them aswell.
I could have seen any one ofthose sort of honorable mentions
up to the winners being reallybeing built and I think, like
(38:57):
you're right about it, when itbeing like a one-on-one client
thing, you feel a little bitlike conservative.
Like breaking that shackle offis a great way to like produce
better and more varied design aswell yeah, I think you get some
incredibly interesting thingsout of projects.
Gerard Dombroski (39:17):
Yeah, I think the I don't know if you did 25
years, say, of all publicbuildings as competitions, you'd
get a pretty interesting cityat the end of that.
Sam Brown (39:27):
Oh man, imagine how cool New Zealand would look,
rather than everything justbeing like a carbon copy of the
next one.
Ben Sutherland (39:35):
Yeah, it would be pretty cool.
Sam Brown (39:39):
You know you think about some of those well,
actually like Christchurch TownHall.
Gerard Dombroski (39:46):
That was a competition Epic building, One
of my favourites.
Ben Sutherland (39:48):
Yeah, it must push the innovation and
creativity side a lot, I wouldimagine, because you know
there's just a lot more mindsworking on one thing at once, so
I guess that's a huge benefitof one for sure.
Sam Brown (40:03):
And I guess it also opens up that like phenomenon of
parallel thinking as well.
Right, you get lots ofdifferent minds working on one
solution, solution, you're goingto come up with a lot of like
different high quality designshigh quality, different ideas,
but you're also likely to getlike a lot of the same solutions
which, in a way, validates ifit's really good, validates that
(40:26):
design as well and validatesthe designers.
Ben Sutherland (40:30):
So that's probably a really good way to
like, uh, increase your brandawareness or your, you know,
your, your personal um, your,for example, like you, gerard,
get your name out there a littlebit more.
I guess, like that's a reallygood way to do it, especially if
you're producing really gooddesigns.
You know, yeah, people will belooking there.
(40:51):
There's a well.
Gerard Dombroski (40:54):
Brick Bay.
Do you remember Declan?
Declan, the last?
Yeah, that's right, that's likeprobably the best one that
they've done.
And then, if I'm a bit critical, they've potentially turned
into all the same project.
Ben Sutherland (41:08):
Yeah, I actually went there like a couple of
weeks ago.
It's still.
It's still pretty cool though.
Sam Brown (41:14):
Is the Brick Bay Folly.
That's a competition as well,though, right, yes, yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (41:20):
Sort of aimed at like early grades, yeah.
Sam Brown (41:24):
So there you go.
There's another one.
Ben Sutherland (41:26):
I mean I'm just trying to like collect yeah and
I guess, going back to the wholeexposure thing, it's probably a
good way to like find if you'relike someone who's wanting or
looking for designers,architects, et cetera it's a
good way to like find someonewith like a certain aesthetic
that you're after or at leastlike gauge a whole bunch of
people's work at one time.
(41:47):
So there's definitely like somepros for sure.
Sam Brown (41:51):
Maybe we should run a design competition.
Ben Sutherland (41:54):
Yeah, what would we build?
I don't know.
Sam Brown (41:59):
Did you guys do when we were at university?
Did you guys do the 24-hourdesign comp that me and Hamish
McLaughlin ran.
Ben Sutherland (42:07):
Yeah, we won it oh did you guys win it?
Nice yeah, Ambrose as well.
Sam Brown (42:12):
What was your idea?
Ben Sutherland (42:14):
We had the data center in the middle of the
harbor.
Sam Brown (42:17):
Ah, yeah.
Ben Sutherland (42:18):
It was an awesome data tower.
That was sick, that was fun.
Sam Brown (42:21):
So I mean, I've got the framework sitting there me
and Hamish will somewhere havethe framework for running the
design competition.
But that was epic, and I thinkthat's something that
universities I actually don'tknow if they even still do them.
I doubt it probably, but thatculture of competition was so
(42:41):
cool at university.
You kind of have 24 hours, youget minds in one room.
It's a buzz.
It's free coffee.
Ben Sutherland (42:46):
Yeah, it is fun.
Sam Brown (42:48):
A party at the end of it.
It's such a great time shouldhave that we should have the
same thing.
Ben Sutherland (42:56):
you know, we should have the same thing in
the professional realm as well Idefinitely try and recreate
that at throughout like conceptphase for sure, like when you're
like bringing everyone togetherand just like pump out a whole
bunch of ideas and see whatworks best off the bat.
I remember how fun that was onthat design competition, so
(43:18):
highly recommend doing one ofthose for sure.
Sam Brown (43:22):
And lack of sleep.
Too much caffeine the creativejuices are just flying.
Ben Sutherland (43:27):
Yeah, we just need to find someone.
So if there's anyone out therewho wants something built, we
just need to find someone.
Gerard Dombroski (43:32):
So if there's, anyone out there who wants
something built.
Well, at Driving Creek we wantto do more cabins, like more
piccolos on the hill, so there'sdefinitely an idea being
floated.
Friend Laurie keeps pushing onfor like a residency again, but
(43:54):
it's very low funding, so it'smore of the same sort of stuff
and I don't think you'll findmany people that want to do that
sort of thing for free or forvery low money.
Sam Brown (44:05):
But the opportunities are out there.
Ben Sutherland (44:08):
It depends on the incentive, right, like, if
there's not like a financial orlike a built product incentive,
then there needs to be like abrand, like an awareness, I
don't know, like a publicationor yeah, something like that,
you know.
Gerard Dombroski (44:25):
Like if that was properly advertised and
thought about more, like youcould find funding and like that
You'd find a magazine to popthat out.
Ben Sutherland (44:36):
Yeah, you'd have to find the magazine and then
bring it all together.
Sam Brown (44:38):
The problem with magazines, though, is they're
not open to the whole public.
I reckon this is where the newzealand news media falls down,
is they don't supportarchitecture at all.
They don't even reallyrecognize it as being a
profession to support, whereasit is inherent in everybody's
day-to-day life, and I thinkit's actually like the news
media, particularly newsprintmedia and online in New Zealand
(45:01):
it's their responsibility tohelp, sort of like promote all
this stuff.
You think about the NZIA Awards.
They might get a small littlebulletin, maybe even a one-pager
or something on stuff.
That's it.
I've obviously got a bee in mybonnet about, like you know,
having no recognition for theDazeen Awards, although in
(45:22):
saying that, is it Tequina's atthe World Building Festival or
something?
There is a New Zealand buildingthat's being like touted a
little bit at the moment.
It's at like the World BuildingFestival or something there's.
There is a new zealand buildingthat's being like touted a
little bit at the moment.
It's at like the world buildingfestival or something like that
.
And I know the living pa isgetting a lot of press,
obviously because it is, um, youknow it's past that living
(45:42):
building challenge.
Gerard Dombroski (45:43):
But um auckland art museum won the
world building of the year, likeoh, 10 years ago I don't know,
as we were, which is pretty likeworld building of the air or
some metric.
I'm not sure what that platformwas, so we're doing some good
stuff for sure it just needs tobe talked about eh yeah, yeah,
(46:05):
media, it's the giant failure ofarchitecture for New Zealand.
I mean, there's definitely afew people trying to push it,
but, yeah, the majorpublications don't really need
to do it.
Show us some love.
Ben Sutherland (46:24):
Well, how?
Gerard Dombroski (46:24):
would you do it?
Ben Sutherland (46:24):
differently.
Gerard Dombroski (46:26):
It's the year.
Ben Sutherland (46:28):
If you had, like , if you were running Home
Magazine, like, what would youdo different?
Because most of the content isgood.
Is it just how they're sellingit?
Maybe, like some people, justwhat's the hit?
Gerard Dombroski (46:42):
I just think this is more like a architect
specific thing, like if I wasrunning nzia or something and we
had the budget for it.
I'd just do little adverts likehow long is an ad?
30 seconds or something we justdo like a micro grand designs
on, like one of the more recentepic homes New Zealand
architects put together.
Sam Brown (47:03):
Yeah, think about, like you know well, think about
like local project type things,or even what's their thing
called kevin, who we talked to,what's their um show called
what's their?
Ben Sutherland (47:22):
uh mara archie marathon yeah, archie marathon.
Like their videos as well, yeahit's those little snippets yeah
, yeah and then having themavailable speaking of which, I
see they've posted an extracouple up there.
Where were they?
Gerard Dombroski (47:39):
Yeah, they've been in Japan.
No, there's a German one nowwhich looks pretty interesting.
Ben Sutherland (47:44):
Nice, I think.
Is it Holland?
No, I'm not sure.
I'll have to have a look again,but they look awesome.
Gerard Dombroski (47:50):
I saw on Instagram stories they were in
some bathrooms in like Chinayesterday or something.
Sam Brown (47:55):
Nice.
Gerard Dombroski (47:56):
Some epic bathrooms.
Yes, it's like a Richard Sierrasort of sculpture bathroom.
Beautiful, china's got somegood stuff.
Sam Brown (48:05):
Start competitions just for some nice public lows
yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (48:09):
Yeah, I've used the Wellington waterfront.
Dude, I love that they're goingjust as fun.
Ben Sutherland (48:15):
Quirky but weird yeah, and you get those
outcomes from competition,that's oh yeah, so it is the
netherlands and germany, and uh,june and july and they look
pretty epic, I've got to sayyeah, I think video is
accessible to everyone, like andif you make it an interestingly
(48:38):
enough video.
Gerard Dombroski (48:39):
Sometimes I think the local project videos
are a little bit slow and ifyou're not into architecture you
might find out pretty quickly.
Ben Sutherland (48:45):
But it was slightly more snappy if we got
ice cube to narrate but justlike diving a little bit deeper
in what you guys are talkingabout, should it not be up to
the own designer?
I mean, designers do all thatstuff all the time, right, like,
do you make your own littlesnappy clips and, and, um you
(49:05):
know, put together publication Ijust do one of hydroforming
going fat and thin.
Gerard Dombroski (49:12):
We just have instagram stories, don't we?
I think that's kind of what wehave in our toolkit that's most
accessible.
I've got a couple youtubevideos in edit, but I have never
really finished and they're alllike furniture based, because
those are sort of short timeframe project but like the the
podcast from the end of lastyear.
Listeners out there.
(49:36):
There's a missing episode 18.
Ben Sutherland (49:38):
19.
Sam Brown (49:41):
Which is still in edit.
Is it 19?
Gerard Dombroski (49:43):
I don't know Anyway it will come.
Sam Brown (49:45):
Eventually.
There's a good one too.
Ben Sutherland (49:51):
It's a good one.
Maybe we'll drop it at the endof this year see how much we've
improved.
Sam Brown (49:59):
Oh good, good all right, all right then do we?
Hate it or love it you've got.
Ben Sutherland (50:04):
I was gonna change my love it to tea puffer.
Nah, because you know thatsounds awesome.
So, sam, to bother hate it orlove it shit man, way to throw
me under the bus.
Hey, it's fine.
Sam Brown (50:21):
It's a personal opinion, it's totally fine I
love it as an experience and Ilove what it um encompasses and
what's inside it.
Aesthetically, the buildingfrom the outside isn't my cup of
tea.
Ben Sutherland (50:40):
Yeah, I think it's definitely like aged from
the outside for sure, it's kindof like stuck in its oh I don't
even know 90s or 2000s, I don'tknow what you'd call it.
But uh, the inside.
We did like a lot of umanalysis on the inside of the
building and I actually really,you know, quite enjoyed that,
(51:02):
enjoyed the um, the doublecolumns, yeah, yeah, no just
like the journey around theplace.
Uh, so I'm on the fenceprobably more towards not to
love it, unfortunately, but it'sit's too literal as a museum.
Sam Brown (51:20):
It's too literal for me it's.
I love it as a museum.
Gerard Dombroski (51:24):
I hate it as a building yeah, yeah, for how
public the site is.
It really does not interactwith the surroundings.
Ben Sutherland (51:33):
Yeah, the wall representing the fault line that
is yadda, yadda, yadda runningin the same direction, and this
representing that.
It's just too literal for me.
The design personally, but Iget it.
Sam Brown (51:47):
I'll put a poll up on the ground and see what people
say.
Ben Sutherland (51:53):
Hey, and get them to go visit while they're
at it.
Probably need some love.
Gerard Dombroski (52:03):
I do wonder how refined the big feather, how
that would have looked,developed into a full building.
Sam Brown (52:10):
The Afield Gary.
One, yeah, would have beeninteresting.
Gerard Dombroski (52:16):
Is that all three of them?
F Field, Gary Thompson.
Sam Brown (52:18):
Yeah, might have been , yeah.
Ben Sutherland (52:20):
What about you, Gerard?
Where do you sit?
Gerard Dombroski (52:24):
Well, yeah, it's a building, but it's
definitely a lost opportunity.
I mean, it's such a prominentsite that it really should have
interacted with all itssurroundings a lot more.
Ben Sutherland (52:39):
Yeah, that's a good point as well.
You've got the ocean rightthere.
Gerard Dombroski (52:42):
There's massive real, obvious potential
there.
Sam Brown (52:49):
Is this our first Hater of Lovett consensus?
Ben Sutherland (52:54):
I guess, yeah, there you you go.
Normally Sam's the odd one out.
That's why we made him startthis time, lovely, easy alright,
guys, bloody good.
Sam Brown (53:08):
Well, we're back, better than ever.
2025.
If anybody's got anysuggestions or ideas that they'd
like us to discuss, if anybodywants to come on have a pint
chat, architecture and designwith us, sing out, let us know.
And equally, if anybody knowsof any sponsorship opportunity
to help us edit the podcast,because it's time consuming and
(53:29):
expensive, uh, that'd be great.
Uh.
And equally, if anybody outthere is an editor and wants to
edit the podcast, then hit us upas well.
Ben Sutherland (53:39):
That would be ideal yeah yeah, nice, oh well,
I'll see you in two weeks.
Happy days, see you, boys, youlater.
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