Mass Timber Construction: A Woody Renaissance

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Step into the revolutionary world of mass timber construction with our enlightening conversation featuring Jordan Robinson, Head of Business Development at X-Lam. What begins as a reunion of old architecture school friends quickly transforms into a masterclass on how engineered timber is reshaping our built environment.

Remember when timber was just for stick framing houses? Those days are rapidly disappearing as Cross-Laminated Timber (CLT) and other mass timber products demonstrate capabilities that rival—and sometimes surpass—traditional concrete and steel construction. Jordan walks us through the remarkable journey of how small pieces of timber, often considered waste in conventional lumber processing, are transformed into structural panels capable of supporting buildings up to 10 stories tall.

The conversation shatters common misconceptions about timber construction. Far from being a fire hazard, mass timber chars at predictable rates, allowing engineers to design for specific fire ratings. And while acoustic performance requires thoughtful detailing, solutions exist that make timber buildings comfortable for occupants. Perhaps most surprising is the sustainability story—from the manufacturing process that utilizes timber offcuts to the carbon sequestration benefits, mass timber offers a compelling alternative to high-carbon materials.

What truly captivated us was learning about the seamless integration between digital design, manufacturing, and construction. The ability to model a structure digitally, send the files directly to CNC machines, and then rapidly assemble precision-cut components on site represents a fundamental shift in how we approach building. As Jordan aptly put it, "You can build ball gowns or you can build T-shirts with timber"—meaning the technology supports both stunning showcase projects and practical everyday applications.

Ready to reimagine what's possible in construction? Whether you're an architect, builder, developer, or simply curious about sustainable building practices, this episode offers valuable insights into a material that's been used for millennia but is now being deployed in revolutionary new ways. Join us as we explore how mass timber might just be the future of architecture in New Zealand and beyond.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
In the depths of winter, there is no better time
than now to spice things up Withspice and sweetness.
In harmony, parrot Dog's newcore range, ginger beer, is
brewed with real ginger juice tobe refreshingly satisfying, a
little naughty and very nice.
Welcome to this week's episodewhere we dive into the world of
mass timber construction withour guest and good friend,

(00:20):
jordan Robinson from X-Lam.
Join us as we explore theinnovative potential of timber
and architecture, itssustainability benefits and the
exciting projects pushing theboundaries of design.
Whether you're an industryprofessional or just curious
about the future of building,this conversation promises
insights and inspiration.
Jordan's detailed knowledgearound CLT and general passion

(00:42):
for timber shines through, andit is hard not to want to hug a
tree after listening to thisepisode.
Let's dive in.
Thanks for jumping onto thepodcast this week, jordan.

(01:13):
So for listeners out there thatdon't know, jordan Robinson
went to university with both Benand I.

Speaker 2 (01:21):
It was in the same.
You guys were in the sameMartins group, weren't you?
Yeah, yeah, Just Ben, yeah.
I grew up in a marriage Nice,the band the Myth master's group
, aren't you?
Yeah, just Ben, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
I grew up in a marriage.
Nice Abandoned the myth.
That's right, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
As me and Ben went down the light side, jordan
jumped over to the dark side.
And what's your role now,george?
Head of development, orsomething for Ericsson?

Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, don't get bogged down on titles, Sammy,
but, yeah, head of businessdevelopment.
So it's sort of thepre-construction side of the
X-San business, which is quitecool.
Get to use a lot of the skillsthat we learned back in the day
at architecture school and applythem on a timber-focused yeah,
more timber-focused day-to-day,which is something that I

(02:03):
obviously enjoy.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
Nice.
The reason we've got jules onfor the for the chat this week
is because we want to just knowa little bit more about mass
timber construction.
Really, I'd say that it's still.
You guys might may have yourdiffering views on this, but I'd
say that it's still very muchin its infancy.
In new zealand, particularly inthe residential sector.
I'm starting to make a fewmovements commercially, but I

(02:24):
think it's still got a long wayto go and has a lot of potential
and just kind of want to talkabout sustainability aspect of
it.
That's design potential and allthat.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah, absolutely well , funny story actually about, uh
, jordan and go on x lab.
Really well, it was quite funny.
So.
So when we were, like you know,researching thesis subjects and
we ended up getting sponsoredby XM so XM was really new at
the time, basically, you know,hadn't even started their

(02:54):
factory, really they were justkind of in the early days of
prototyping and so they ended upactually sponsoring us to one
of the pre-FabNZ conferences,one of the first one in Taranaki
, yeah, which was awesome.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
I don't know how we actually wrangled that to be
honest, I think it was a guymarriage hookup, to be fair, but
it was.
Yeah, I was actuallyreminiscing over that this
afternoon before this.
Yeah, we're sitting in the backrow and I think the Jack
brothers who were the originalfounders of X-Flam were.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
Robin yeah, robin and Ian, and I think they probably
looked at both of us and thoughtthese guys have no idea, and
sort of pulled us down adirection of mass timber.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
So it was yeah, so I ended up building.
You know well, I think it wasthe first residential CLT
building in the country.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
It would have been.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
And you ended up working with them.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
I ended up working with them.
Hey, look at that, they're ingun circle.
Guns full circle, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Yeah, well, that was actually my thesis, so I guess
it kind of like came, you know,from the back of all those
conversations that we werehaving with Jacks at the time.

Speaker 1 (04:02):
So I want to get you to that as a solution though.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
I think the reason that we were with Guy is like we
were both really interested intimber construction.
Essentially I'd had a lot ofexperience just building in
general and had built a lot ofstick framed houses and was
really kind of searching for analternative route, which was the
mass, uh, the, the masscustomization, which is like

(04:29):
something that you can see andsee and customize and go from
computer cad um, you know,digital model straight through
to essentially print it out andthen erect it on site.
So that's kind of what I wasreally interested in and that's
what I did my thesis on, whichwas design.
What did I call it?
I can't remember now Designfabricate, I think something

(04:50):
like that.
It's been a while.

Speaker 3 (04:53):
There's a lot of parametric design in it as well,
Ben.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, we were thinking about how to make it
flexible, weren't we?

Speaker 3 (05:00):
Looking to expand it and obviously have the BIM
component, which obviouslywasn't necessarily new but it
was still emerging into the formthat we well, you guys more so
use it on a daily basis now.
But I suppose it was kind ofthat sort of merging of
production technology andobviously computer software for
design and it was, I mean it was.
I remember that day we went tothe X-LAM facility in Nelson,

(05:22):
which is no longer in itscurrent form, obviously X-Lam
facility in Nelson, which is nolonger in its current form,
obviously X-Lam has now movedoffshore to Australia.
But it was like a wonderland.
You know, this CNC machine thesize of that, the machinery.
You know it was immense and Iguess there was this view at the
time that you could do anythingand you can.
That machinery allows you to doso much from an off-site

(05:44):
manufacturing and prefabricationperspective.
So it was awesome to see andawesome to see it here in New
Zealand, I guess.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
What is it about CLT and I guess that integration
with BIM, though that makes itas a design solution or as a
design material solution, thatmuch better than just stick
framing or any other form ofconstruction, steel, concrete or
anything like that.
Look, I think it's probably.
Let's put the sustainabilityaspect aside for now.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
I think probably its emergence has probably been more
in alignment with theadvancements in BIM technology,
to be fair, especially in thesouthern hemisphere, and so it's
part of that.
You know, the capability ofthat design environment and the
capability of technology thatfeeds into production and mass
production for things like CLTand Blue Lamb and that sort of

(06:33):
thing have probably risen at asimilar time.
I guess things like stick frame, those traditional sort of
methods of construction are, Idon't know, I suppose they're

(06:58):
fairly well ingrained in sort ofthe fabric of design and
construction, especially in NewZealand.
Just it's, you know, industrystandard, it's industry standard
, it's known across, across youknow the various sectors and
it's if it ain't broke, don'tfix it.
But I suppose there's a levelof innovation that some are
looking for and I, and I thinkprobably in this environment
that we're in economically,people are looking to do things

(07:19):
in a different way, whichtechnology is obviously a great
way to to achieve that, Isuppose what is it about clt
that gives you that flexibility?

Speaker 2 (07:26):
well, it's kind of like a one-stop shop, right.
Yeah, you know, the thing withuh stick framing is it's
actually quite a few componentsthat make up one panel, whereas
the great thing about clt andthis is kind of what uh
captivate, captivated meoriginally is essentially it's
just like one big piece oftimber that you can cut various

(07:47):
elements out of.
And nowadays there's even reallyclean details where you're
essentially like putting theinsulation on the exterior,
creating like a jacket, so it'sactually really well insulated
as well.
That whole concept of like okay, cool, we can make parametric
models of these wall components,basically like turn that into

(08:10):
like data, feed it to themachine and then cut it out and
then send it to site, and Ithink like the original one we
built and we were just studentsand we got a lot better after
that but the original one webuilt, I think it took us like
three days or something, so itwas very fast, don't get me

(08:31):
wrong.
Um, the stick framingtechnology in this country has
definitely improved a lot, butit's still like you got to lay
out various components and yougotta, uh, stick to the.
You know 3604, the buildingcode, whereas, yeah, I don't
know something about that bigslab of timber and aesthetically

(08:53):
, the yeah, just really reallyliked the.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
yeah, I like that I like that materiality well, you
know that really raw materialitynature of it.
Is it still to and this may bemy naivety, or maybe just lack
of understanding of how far youcan push this, but is it still
essentially like bound to an Xand Y axis as a material?
Can you this guy's harkeningback to Gerard, our conversation

(09:17):
with Gerard last week abouthydroforming Can you also like
steam form it as well?
Can you create?
Can you get the Z-axis into itat all?
Or is it more?
You can do that by lattice workand all that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Yeah, look, in terms of the CLT component, absolutely
it's very much a monolithicconstruction method, so
panelized I mean, if you throwdesign and money at anything you
can make it happen.
It's not commonplace.
But I suppose in terms of that,that sort of 3d component that
you're talking about there andactually moving away from just a

(09:51):
2d format and glulam and lvlare probably more akin to that
where there's a lot more sort ofscope in terms of design for
complex geometries and that sortof thing and high intensity
machining.
In terms of clt, look we, interms of mass timber as a whole,
it's all kind of one of thesame family, but I think that

(10:12):
very bespoke nature generallylends itself to glulam and LVL.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah, I was going to say that was going to be my next
question, like what's thedifference between LVL, glulam
and CLT?

Speaker 2 (10:22):
One of the great things, though.
So the way that CLT is made is,essentially it's a run of
varying lengths of timber thatare just gauged to the same
dimensions and are fingerjointed together.
So when they're joint together,it's basically just like an
endless cycle, an endless run oftimber.

(10:43):
Then it's chopped to the rightlength and then obviously, like
the, it's kind of, one layergoes down, then a adjacent layer
is glued down, then anotheradjacent layer, and that sort of
thing.
So that's how you get thatcross lamination, but it's
actually, yeah, the glue thatgives it all the strength.
So it's quite cool.
I really always quite liked howit's just made up of, like

(11:05):
those waist lengths that arenever used in the industry, so
nothing, you know anythingthat's under 2.4 meters or 1.2
or whatever.
It's all just little bits andtimber kind of joint together
and recycled, essentially.
So always kind of liked thatcomponent about it.

Speaker 3 (11:24):
Yeah, that's right, ben.
I mean you look at most CLTmanufacturers around the world.
Often they not always, but oftenthey have very strong alignment
with sawmills and that sort ofthing Because, as Ben's alluded
to there the recipe, if you like, in terms of those alternating
laminations they're not alwaysthe same strength class of
timber.
So typically and this is a verybasic description of it, but

(11:47):
typically in terms of thespanning capabilities, if it's a
three, five or seven layer, itgives obviously considerable
benefits in terms of the primarydirection, so the primary being
the direction that the lamellasare spanning, and then the
alternate, the cross-laminationcomponent is generally a lower
grade fibre because it's doingless generally in sawmills.

(12:08):
You know, especially in newzealand here radiated pine we
get a lot of sg is prettystandard for the um residential
framing market and so as aresult there's typically a lot
of low grade fiber that comesout of the recovery of a log
yeah, right you know, if youhave have the ability to create
value out of that and put itinto a product like CLT or LBL

(12:32):
typically it's CLT, it's got abetter use case for it Then
there's obviously a betterrecovery there.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
So just to clarify.
So glulam is similar to CLT,but they all run in the same
direction.
So the timber's kind of stackedto create a beam most common
and then LVL, which is laminatedveneer.
Lumber is larger bits ofplywood cut up so the veneer is
glued together, but all of themessentially get most of their

(13:05):
strength from the glue itself.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
You touched on an interesting thing, both of you
guys just before, how you werekind of saying it's essentially
made of waste product and,george, you mentioned it being
sort of the leftover remainsfrom the milling process.
I'm just thinking and it'ssomething that I've been working
with the Better BuildingWorking Group down in Wanaka for

(13:31):
a while is how we do with wastetimber from building sites.
So we had a site down inQueenstown that was a homestead
project so we tracked all thewaste from that.
We had 1.6 tonnes of waste thatwent to landfill.
1.3 tons of that was timber,yep.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Off cuts and that sort of thing, just off cuts.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
And that was a SIP build, Not a lot of timber in it
as it was.
The majority of that came frominternal framing and a little
bit from mid floors.
There's a huge amount of wastedtimber and there's nothing that
you can do with it.
It essentially just goes tolandfill.
Are you guys looking at any?
Yeah, well, I mean you try anduse as much of it as you can.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
There's a lot of drawings.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Yeah, but I don't want to encourage that either,
because that's just creatingthermal bridging.
But you know, like, if you're,you guys are sort of, I guess,
do you have a model?
I guess what I'm trying to getto is do you have a model, or
are you looking at or have youthought about a model where you
could potentially buy back thiswaste timber for fabrication?

Speaker 3 (14:34):
Probably the quick answer to that is no.
I mean, I suppose, thestructure and having it come
from our mill, there's a hugeamount of quality assurance that
sits behind it.
At the end of the day, it's astructural component, right?
So we have to.
You know the amount of datathat we collect during the
manufacturing process,especially in this facility in
Australia that we have now.
It's huge, you know.

(14:56):
It's mapping moisture content,the actual structural
performance of the individuallamellas, the glue line
integrity between those lamellas, the finger-joining performance
.
At the end of the day, if we'rebuilding and we have done nine
10-story buildings out of CMT,you want to know that every
component of that is meeting avery stringent requirement.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
What's the highest you've built?
Just out of curiosity.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Yeah, I mean, 8 or 9 isprobably the main for XLAM in
terms of projects that weresupplied, some here in New
Zealand and some in Australia.
Globally there's upwards of 15,16, 17, 18 in the States, which
is amazing, I suppose wherethat goes to.

(15:45):
That next level of height,vertical extension, is in hybrid
solutions.
You know, Atlassian in Sydneyat the moment is building a big
concrete CLT hybrid build.
I forget the total number ofstoreys, but it's upwards of 30.
It's significant.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
Isn't that new?
The new fish market?
A hybrid CLT building as well.
Isn't it in Sydney?

Speaker 3 (16:06):
That's primarily glulam so there's a lattice roof
structure, but there's steeland concrete components.

Speaker 2 (16:13):
So I suspect the one you were talking about is
concrete columns and beams andCLT flooring or something like
that.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Primarily a structural core.
So obviously you know, if youcreate a core, especially for
the high-rise buildings, whenyou start to introduce like
considerations of fire.
What they've looked to do isbasically I forget the number of
stories within each compartment, but they've basically created,
you know, vertical sections ofsort of call it three stories of

(16:42):
concrete and then the infill isa CLT and then they're doing
that repeatedly.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
That's awesome.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
So I suppose that approach allows timber to be
integrated in a way where, ifyou just made that solely out of
concrete and steel, which ispossible, there's a huge amount
of cost in terms of constructiontimeframes, back propping,
curing times.
The efficiency to build that issignificantly improved by the
integration of the timbercomponents.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
So this begs the question why are we not using it
more?

Speaker 3 (17:10):
cost I mean I think it's up, it's, it's probably, I
mean, cost it in terms of if youwere to take the material, one
material, and put it alongsidethe other.
You're right, ben.
I mean that's how it'sperceived and that's that's
probably the biggest barrier atthis point in time.
I suppose you know some ofthose reference points are just
made there and around.
You know, a concrete floor.
If you're laying a trade floorand and infilling it with

(17:35):
concrete and back propping itand leaving that to cure for
however many weeks, that's timeright At the end of the day, in
a commercial environment, timeis money and so I suppose that's
the part that's hard for anyone, especially the supplier of
timber, to sit back and go.
The timber's definitely fasterbecause of course it's perceived

(17:56):
that we'd say that, but wedefinitely are seeing that in
commercial applications.
X-lam were involved with Heinzas a global real estate
organization and they have atimber model that they've taken
throughout the world and theybuilt a timber model that
they've taken throughout theworld and they built one in um

(18:18):
in melbourne.
It's called t3 collingwood andthat had effectively eight
stories of of concrete and steeland then eight of cl10 glulam
and it's like a test.
That's just.
That's just the design it's.
It's repeated throughout didthey?

Speaker 1 (18:32):
it'd be really interesting.
Sorry, just quickly on that.
It'd be really interesting toknow which was more efficient or
which eight-storey sector wascheaper.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
In terms of cost.
That's just the point.
So the actual cost of thematerials on the base component
were obviously cheaper up front,but the labour savings and the
efficiency on the upper levelswas significant.
And so you put that into aglobal context and understand
what that means for a project.
It definitely has a place and Isuppose probably the key thing

(19:05):
there is it's an education thing, you know, in terms of
understanding, you know, gettingthose stakeholders involved in
a project and getting the rightpeople and the right knowledge
in the room, that upfront sortof awareness around.
You know you don't approach atimber building in the same way
that you do a traditional,because there's different.
There's, you know, it's notvastly different, but there's
different considerations thatneed to be brought into the room

(19:27):
and consider that at key stagesto allow you to do that upfront
thinking and make meaningfulchanges.
And I suppose, if you put itinto a commercial context where
you talk about grid set out, Imean timber alone, whilst it can
span the same sort of nine bynine grid for a commercial
application, what does that do?
It increases the structuraldepth of it.

(19:48):
So you start to question okay,well, is that material the right
use case for that application?
And that's probably the betterscenario for, I guess the right
use case for that applicationand that's probably the better
scenario for, I guess, thewidespread use of mass timber,
and it's that's looking at usingthe right materials for the
right applications, I suppose.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
In that same breath or in that same vein, like what
about acoustics and fire andthat sort of thing like how does
it stack up moisture, all thesethings that I guess timber is a
little bit susceptible to like?
How does it stack up moisture,all these things that I guess
timber is a little bitsusceptible to like?
How does it stack up to tocounterparts?

Speaker 3 (20:18):
I mean there's a lot of perception around.
You know, timber you put, youput a piece of timber in your
fire to heat your house, right,it burns and I suppose, and
that's, you know, that's a lotwhat a lot of people think right
, but in reality you know, youtesting, and there's a there's a
huge amount of testing thatsits behind products like
cross-seminated timber andglulam.
But I mean it actually performsvery predictably in a fire case

(20:41):
.
So obviously it chars and thenit burns at a constant rate or a
relatively constant rate, andwhat that allows us to do is
obviously during a design phaseyou can allow for that.
So you want 30 minutes, 60minutes, minutes.
You obviously scale thosecomponents accordingly, code
requirements in differentcountries.
Obviously timber is a you knowhave with its group rating and

(21:03):
surface spread of flame.
That does introduce otherchallenges but it can be managed
with the integration of, youknow, linings and that sort of
thing.
So what we often see, that firedoes dictate, especially at
height.
So residential, it's verysimple and very easy to leave
timber components exposed.
Ben, the Warriner house andLittleton would have all been
exposed.

(21:24):
Beautiful, and that's, I think,the initial driver for many
people to use timber is to touchit, feel it that biophilic
aspect.
As we all know, the know, themateriality of timber is a
really you know, well understoodthing in terms of the benefits
for the occupants.
But I suppose that theintegration of you know building

(21:45):
code requirements sometimesdictates what extent of timber
can be left exposed, especiallyif you're talking multiple
stories.
So, yeah, yeah, it kind ofseems like a shame to cover it
up when you're talking multiplestories.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
So, yeah, yeah, it kind of seems like a shame to
cover it up when you're using itto celebrate the material it
just becomes and thenessentially it's just steel,
right, and then you're only yeah, you're looking, you're looking
, then you're looking atdifferent, different things to
try and weigh up your options.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
But yeah, that's right, and I suppose that I mean
there's there's a designapproach here and there's
there's developing technologyaround.
You know thermally rated gluesand that sort of thing, which
obviously allow timber to beleft exposed, intrumescent
coatings, which mean that thechallenges around, you know,
exposed timber elements can becontrolled to a higher degree,

(22:32):
and I suppose that aspect meansthat the ability to probably
celebrate certain components oflarger commercial applications
is possible.
That's not to say that everycommercial project has to have
timber encapsulated or concealedbehind a fire-rated substrate
or whatever.
That's really project-specific.

(22:53):
There's a number of fantasticexamples in New Zealand and
internationally where timber isused in an exposed manner and
it's even at 10 stories plus.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
I'll never forget when they started making us
treat the timber for internaluse, for durability.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
If you left it exposed.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
You know how.
There's a whole bunch of rulesand regulations around exposed
timber, around kitchens and wetareas and that sort of thing.
So if we wanted to use you knowCLT or, for example, other
timber products exposed in aresidential house, then we had
to treat the timber, theinterior layer, which you know

(23:38):
as soon as you kind of have atreatment in there.
It's just not well, it's not asappealing, I guess.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
What were you treating it in?

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Ben no, so that's how it came treated, obviously.

Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah, so most of it is it all?

Speaker 1 (23:53):
LSOV stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
At the beginning we didn't actually have to.
Most of it was.
You know it's so solid androbust it would take so long to
actually rot away.
The thought of it rotting awayis not a bit of MDF or anything.
These panels were like 70 milthick.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Solid timber.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Smaller.
A lot of them were like 90 milsor something.
It's going to take you 50 yearsof water just for it to rot
away you're worried about a bitof yeah, you raise a super valid
point there.

Speaker 3 (24:20):
I mean, I mean durability.
Obviously you know the qualityof the built environment's
critical and and that's what wesort of all do and in many
respects we're, we'recontributing to that that future
environment.
We want it to last as long aspossible.
I mean, I think, treatments youknow, at Exlam we use a
treatment that's been developedby our sister company, Hein

(24:40):
Timber, which allows us to becompliant to the New Zealand
Building Code.
But that aside, durability isdown to good detail and good
design.
Right at the end of the day,that's again using the right
materials and the right sort ofdesign considerations in the
right place to to ensuresomething doesn't fire
prematurely.
I think there's treat.
Things like treatments areobviously a fallback for

(25:03):
underperformance and designs.
Look, you're never going to getaround that.
From a building code point ofview it's yeah, it's essential.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
I'm just really good at detailing guys.

Speaker 3 (25:11):
It's fine, it's impervious yeah, but it's uh, I
think that's that's a key partof of um.
You know any you're buildingwith any product.
To be fair, it's good goodpractice in detailing.
But yeah, sam you, you made thecomment around acoustics as
well.
I mean acoustics.
Obviously.
The the density of timber overconcrete especially is is quite

(25:33):
different.
Yeah, but there are ways in newdeveloping technologies that
allow CLT especially.
Obviously the consideration foracoustics comes into play when
you're talking intertenancyfloors and walls in particular.
There are ways around it to getproducts, sorry to get overall
wall buildups to be compliant orexceed that, and you know many

(25:56):
of those are integratingexisting approaches.
You know bending, cradle floors, but also there's other new
products out of the States andEurope where higher density
rubbers and sand and otherthings are allowing the floor
buildup to achieve favorableacoustic performances, which is
fantastic.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
Yeah, I guess it's just that with any mass product,
be it timber or be it concrete,like there's always just that
concern.
We even have that issue withsips.
You know they acoustically,without an air gap, don't
perform that well, so you needthat, you need that buffer of
something for we need to be ableto break up the sound, the
sound waves so what happens withthe sips?

Speaker 2 (26:33):
is it kind of like because clt's reverberation
right, it's because it's sosolid, it's like just um
vibrates from one space toanother yeah, so like tapping on
it, you'll get that sound ortransfer straight through it
it's the same as there's no airgap, right, you need air to
break out contact sound.

Speaker 1 (26:51):
So the insulation doesn't do much.
Nah, not really not for contactsound.
So rain on the roof, you'llhear that quite I like it.
But we've had clients, you knowa few clients complain that
it's a little louder than theythought it was going to be.
But then airborne sound.
You know, the houses areairtight so you don't hear
airborne sound really anyway.
But airborne sound also doesn'treally penetrate through

(27:12):
because that's when theinsulation is doing its job.
But it's that contact sound.
That's more of the issue.
So what's airborne sound?
Sorry, it's like a car honksits horn across the road.
You're less likely to hear thatbecause the insulation is
actually that's when it'sworking.
But if there's a woodpeckertapping on the side of your wall
or something, or somebody'sdownstairs hammering something,

(27:33):
you'll hear that through thestructure a little bit more.
Yeah, and it'll probably be thesame with CLT, I imagine In a
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(27:53):
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Speaker 2 (28:18):
Yeah, clt.
Remember the product that youguys used to make.
It was like a double layer thetwin skin, one Twin skin, yeah,
yeah.
That was a good product.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Which was like a 60 mil with a PIR.
We don't make it anymore, butit's yeah insulation in between
it was like a sandwich.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
Giant between, it was like a sandwich.
Giant sip, it was like a giantChonky sip.
Structural.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yeah, it was probably .
I mean, we supplied a fewprojects and a lot of people
still ask for it, but it'sprobably.
It's a different sort of spacethat we want to play in in terms
of pure production of timber, Isuppose it starts yeah, exactly
yeah, pump it out.
Yeah, yeah, that's right,that's right, but it's um, you

(29:01):
know, I think that the theperformance one, one of the
things with I call it anemerging technology, and it's
it's not emerging, emerging,it's.
It's been used in europe for 40years emerging, and that's and
that's just that.
You know it takes, it takes us,it takes a long time to, you
know, weave new products througha full you know full, full

(29:22):
spectrum of stakeholders, right,clients, designers you know
there's you know how many thinkabout how many consultants are
in a given project these days.
You know you've got going to adesign meeting and there's
there's 50 people and they'reall doing something different
for the project.
But it's, I suppose, the levelof understanding and integration
of those learnings across theboard.

(29:43):
It takes some time to adopt ina widespread manner.
It does take time.
I think as part of that, oncepeople get sort of more familiar
, they see better examples ofprobably landmark projects and
also the use case in aday-to-day.
There's something it was one ofthe engineers from Dunning

(30:04):
Thornton we're on a timber panela couple of months ago and she
made this really nice referenceto timber you can build ball
gowns or you can build T-shirtsand I think that's really nice
because everyone marvels at theball gown because it's beautiful
and it really shows thecapability of timber and the

(30:27):
advancements of machining anddesign and all that sort of
thing.
But from a widespread use case,um, if you could find a
position where the residentialmarket is using clt in a
well-suited case on a mass scale.
That's where the the level ofunderstanding and interaction

(30:48):
becomes, you know, so much moreengaging well, that's what rta
are doing with their, theirproject such a cool.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
I'm kicking myself because I'm like I sort of
bloody done that years ago andwe definitely tried.
But kudos to rta, that's likesuch a slick design and focusing
it on that.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
You know that affordable housing sector as
well, and it's sort of like,okay, if it can be, if it can
hit this mark, and it sort ofpushes that affordability we
know that price complex that youtalked about earlier.
Down the road a little bit,it'll help residential
architects like myself go.
Oh well, why can't I use thisas a solution?
I know, george, you've beendrumming me up for a while to

(31:29):
try and use it.
You haven't got me over the lineyet and I would and I would
love to, like, I honestly wouldlove to, and I keep thinking,
you know, starting to thinkabout the design aspect of it.
I think the the initial from adesigner's point of view, like
initial reluctance, I guess, forus to adopt it as a lack of

(31:50):
understanding of one what theproduct is or how it can perform
or how we can utilize it.
Is there not necessarily justxlam, but like in the wider,
obviously xlams where theperspective you're coming from,
but in like the wider masstimber realm, like, is there
that design advice andassistance there, even at a
small scale, like if we were todo like individual one-off

(32:11):
houses?

Speaker 2 (32:12):
yeah, well, that is indeed like.
Are people actually still usingit in the residential sector?
Is it that common?

Speaker 3 (32:19):
now A hundred percent .
I think you know we're seeing ahuge cross-section in terms of
use cases.
I mean resi, like typicallyhigh-end, is where you get very
bespoke and you start to lean onthe capabilities of what CNC
machining offers for projects interms of, you know, complex
geometries and um, you know,really, really looking at um

(32:42):
ways that you can reallyemphasize the capability of of
mass timber and the advancementsthat it that it brings.
But I suppose we're also seeinga lot of call it mainstream
builders and we've justreferenced the rta example where
people are going back tolooking at using it just for mid
floors in their residentialapplications or just for sub

(33:02):
floors if they're on a slopingsite, and I think that that's
really encouraging.
Whilst you know rta as anexample, they were also involved
in scion and they're involvedin fisher and pike or you know
these, these amazing, amazingexamples of pretty detailed
understanding of the productbefore they even got there 100,
but you know, not everyone'sbuilding global headquarters,

(33:25):
you know, but everyone isbuilding homes, right, and
that's the, that's the, really,and you know, going back to that
ball gown versus though theARTA version is sort of more
inclined to be on the ball gownside because they do some pretty
cool designs, but you know,it's mainstream versus kind of
one-off bespoke applications,and I think that….

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, it's more like a nice T-shirt.
A nice T-shirt, yeah, oh yeah,that's cool.
So I guess like one of thebenefits of using it in
residential to make those nicet-shirts.
I'm not sure if you canactually do this, but once
you've kind of got that file setup and you've run it through
the system and you basicallyhave that cutting blueprint it's

(34:05):
more or less just a rinse andrepeat Whenever you want the
same thing.
You can kind of just find alittle gap and run it through
the system.
Right, does that sound aboutright?

Speaker 3 (34:13):
yeah, and in fact, from a um, from a manufacturing
point of view, and it's you knowit's not unique to xlam, it
will be.
It'll be the case for manyhaving the ability to have
standardized you know productsthat you can pump out in terms
of projects, you know.
So you're working with ahousing developer who's got a
standardized design.
If, if you can make that with acompressed lead time, without

(34:35):
any coordination and shop dronesand all the stuff that is
typically involved with thesehigh complexity projects,
perfect, we could make ittomorrow, so to speak.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, because you'll have lag time in your production
process as well.
It kind of just slots intothose gaps nicely and that
ultimately like makes thatentire product super efficient
from from all perspectivesreally yeah, I always thought
that the um medium densitymarket would benefit from it a
lot more than the single, theone-off residential time to say

(35:09):
using it again at the very least, you're building whatever five
or ten of the same or similarthing, right, yeah, yeah there
are.

Speaker 3 (35:15):
There definitely are developers that we work with um
net space, who you know.
That's their, their core focus.
They use clt mid floors all day, every day, which is you know
that they they've just got it soingrained in terms of their
design approach, theefficiencies that it creates in
terms of install of thosecomponents on site.

(35:35):
For one day they're standingground floor frames, then
they've got CLT and then they'reon the next level the day
following.
So for them it feeds into thatsite component around efficiency
, which is awesome.
Clt and Glulam and thoseproducts which have high
alignment with environmentalconsiderations.
What we're typically seeing iswe've got EPDs and everything

(35:57):
that backs up the environmentalperformance of our product.
That maps everything from theforest to the factory gate,
basically, and so that's treeregrowth time, et cetera.
In terms of the living buildingchallenge, you have to have a
whole lot of considerations forreuse of that building after its
natural life.

(36:18):
Basically.
So, looking at ways that you canrepurpose, say, clt floors or
something, and reuse them inanother building.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Just a whole bunch of tables.

Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yeah, I mean, why not , it's still reuse right Chairs
and staircases.

Speaker 3 (36:33):
The reality of that might not might not be as as
refined as what is thought atthat stage, when they're
pitching to get credentials.
You know for a environmentalthing, but at least it brings it
to the forefront in terms ofenvironmental consideration.
You start to think, well, if wedid this, maybe it could be
used as a I don't know a floorin a house or something which is

(36:53):
cool.
I think that's quite powerful,but construction sector is one
of the biggest emitters tonegative environmental impacts.
40% We've never sort of reallythought about that, sam.
What was your number there?
40% oh, I know One and a halftonnes of timber offcuts or

(37:14):
something, or cubic timber.

Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yeah, 1.3 tonne of timber.
Yeah, Out of 1.6 tonne totalwaste.
1.3 tonne of that was timber.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
And that's one project you think about that.
You can see why that number of40% in an industry is so high.

Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, we've done over the years done a lot of three
axis CNC routering and so that'sessentially.
You know, you put a bit ofplywood and on a sheet which is
typically two, four by 12, andyou cut it, cut out your shapes
and whatnot, and part of thatprocess is nesting.
So how you determine what themost efficient use of the

(37:49):
material.
One of the good things I alwaysliked about cross-laminated
timber was yeah, there'sobviously like an element of
trimming but it's more or lesscut to or it's kind of
compressed to fit the actualcomponent it's going to turn
into.

Speaker 3 (38:06):
Does that make sense.

Speaker 2 (38:09):
So it's like cut to suit.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
It's not even like dw's worth of waste, essentially
, yeah, it's not like you'regetting delivered a bunch of
three six-length timber orsix-meter length timber.
You're not getting one pointand you're docking 600 off each
one.
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
These are the lengths that we need.
Let's build it together.
We'll trim the edges, andthat's that which was quite
efficient really Absolutely, ben.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
I mean and you know the reference to nesting there
that's the key to it, right?
I mean we, you know we haveability to create large billets
and then we typically will makea billet to suit a panel.
But we've got examples ofprojects where it hasn't been
CLT, hasn't been used as a youknow, three by six metre, you

(38:52):
know, component, it's trianglesor something, some odd shape and
configuration that it's goinginto.
And so as part of that, we'vegot the ability throughout
modeling software to optimizethat configuration so that the
waste is absolutely as close tonaught as possible, not a waste,
and that's not possible.
There is a waste part of CLTproduction, but the cool thing

(39:15):
that's part of things like epds,it's mapped right.
So what we, what we now do is wehave waste streams for all of
our offcuts is, you know, inaustralia we've got a good
relationship with a contractorwho comes in, collects it all,
mulches it up and uses it forthe bulk uh, bulk supply of
mulch and and sawdust for horsestables and that sort of thing.

(39:37):
So that's 100% recyclable,pre-treated, I hope.
Well, our treatment has beentested.
So we've gone to the length totest the ability for that to be
used, right, cool.
So it's got a declare red list,free treatment, which you know.
Again, it means that none ofthat's going to the landfill,
which is, you know, that's huge.

(39:57):
You take into consideration,ben, the point you made around
the panels coming to site withno offcuts, and then, even at a
production level, we're able toreuse that, the offcuts that are
created during manufacturing,the offcuts that are created
during manufacturing.
That's super efficient.
You know, which is reallyamazing to be able to be
involved in a product wherethere's that level of

(40:18):
consideration for that cyclicalnature of the product and reuse.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
As part of this podcast.
I don't know if Sam told you,jordan, but you're actually
required to take us over toAustralia and conduct a tour of
the factory factory yeah, it's adeep dive we.
We also have to, you know, stepinside the five axis router to
experience its vastness, which Iactually did, we actually make

(40:45):
sure we turn it off then.

Speaker 1 (40:46):
But what's?
What is the limitation on sizeof a panel?

Speaker 3 (40:49):
seriously.
If you're ever in australia,come and have a look.
It's amazing thing to see likethat level of optimizations.
It blows me away even when I gothere on a regular basis.
Every manufacturer obviouslyhas different machinery that
they use and different suppliesof those systems, and so that
typically dictates theproduction output.
So, as an example, we can makepanels three and a half or 3.44

(41:12):
is the exact dimensions by 15.7meters long, which is a big
panel, and that can be 310 thick.

Speaker 2 (41:21):
What's the most efficient panel to make?
That's big.
Yeah, is that the mostefficient?
Like three meters?

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Not necessarily there's a whole lot of other
considerations around uh, panelsize versus.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
You know if you, if you've got a, a project that's
in queenstown or wanaka, as anexample there's no way you'd
make an oversized load becauseyou're not getting it there,
well you get it there, but at ahuge cost, right but yeah you
know, yeah, um where it

Speaker 3 (41:52):
whereas one at a time , whereas pulling that within
gauge, as an example, under 3.1,still still a very big panel.
But obviously you you'recontrolling that freight
component, yeah, but you know byall means if there's a, if
there's a project within a closeproximity to a uh, you know
production facility makescomplete sense to maximise that

(42:14):
if you can.
But then you're also governed bythings like crannage.
I mean three and a half metresby 50, that's a good four or
five tonne, you know, dependingon the thickness.
So you do need to factor thosethings in and that's why I say
before around having earlyinvolvement, early engagement
from stakeholders and makingdecisions up front.

(42:35):
That feeds into the way that wewould supply a project and go
through the shop drawing andproduction phase.
But in terms of that efficientpanel layout, ben, I mean from a
thickness point of view, it'snot necessarily the thinnest is
the cheapest or the best toproduce or the thickest.
It kind of varies throughoutour range and it's dependent on

(42:56):
the feedstock that goes into it.
So if we have to change thelamella thicknesses and
arrangement then obviously itadds time and you know, not
complexity, but it just addstime into the process which
carries cost, I suppose.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Yeah, and are you guys only doing pine?
Yeah.
Australian radiata grown pine,I suppose?
Yeah, and are you guys onlydoing pine?
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (43:15):
Australian radiata grown pine yeah, so it was all
your forestry in Australia.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
It was all production and all forestry for egg slam
in particular in Australia.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
Now yeah, that's correct.
Yeah, so as part of that, it'sinteresting a radiata pine tree
grows slightly slower inAustralia than it does in New
Zealand, which means it's alittle bit stiffer, different
climate.
But I think that is part ofthat.
With the vertical integrationof our business, it's all

(43:44):
aligned from all.
The supply comes from the hindtimber mills, the forestry
agreements that are in place forhind timber, long established.
It's a reliable source offeedstock.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
So, yeah, it is all very much an australian and
grown and supplied are there anynew and exciting innovations
that you guys are kind ofworking on as well, other than,
obviously, just clt itself?

Speaker 3 (44:09):
I think one thing that, um, you know, I haven't
been around, been in x-land thiswhole time, but obviously, as
we referenced at the that, um,you know, and I haven't been
around being an x-lan this wholetime, but obviously, as we
referenced at the start, being,you know, been abreast to it for
a long time and it's, I suppose, one thing that's interesting
is, whilst the capabilities andmachining and everything is gone
, you know, it's still foreverincreasing and improving.
Um, and I referenced it acouple of times earlier that

(44:31):
probably that they're gettingback to basics and doing the
simple things really well, isactually probably more a focus
right now.
Yeah, because, yeah, I mean,give us the most complex thing
and we can make it, but it's notnecessarily what drives a
manufacturing approach.
You know, you need the level ofreliability and predictability

(44:52):
and refinement that allows aproduction facility to drive
volume, and so there's a lot.
You know it's easy to describeit that way, but the reality of
that is quite a bit different,and so that, for us, has been a
key focus.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
It's something you guys don't really control, that
and it's a focus, for sure, butit's almost on us as architects
or designers or engineers or youknow the people that the, the
user or the specifier of thesolution, to start to be a bit
more experimental or start touse it, yeah, less experimental
or less?
Experimental.
Yeah, just kind of exactly takea bait to pass it yeah and that

(45:31):
and look, that's not be lessexperimental.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
That's not be less experimental.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
That's how you can just chill out every building
needs in new zealand andaustralia needs to look
identical.
Yeah, and that's not justthat's not to stifle design
innovation by any means, butit's.
I think if you look at, youknow, take some learnings from
stick frame construction right,it's a sim.
Like the reason it works sowell and it's so widely used is
because it's pretty basic andit's and it's well refined,

(45:56):
right, and you take that mindsetand overlay it in terms of clt
and and glulam and those kind ofnewer mass timber components.
Then then you start to reallydrive volume and get get the the
use case of that productslightly more widespread.
I guess, yeah, but ininnovations you've always got to
be innovating.
I suppose you know.
You probably look at your ownbusinesses and what you do day

(46:21):
to day.
I suppose 10 years ago, youknow, were you doing the same
thing.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
No, completely not, not even three years ago.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
That's it I was so much more innovative back then,
I feel like I've lost it in thelast 10 years like figuring out
how to refine it.
Refined maybe, but definitelynot innovative.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Through innovation, you learn what also doesn't work
as well, ben, so maybe you'vehad that mindset up front and
you know what works?
Yeah, but to answer yourearlier question, I mean, as a
business we're always looking toinnovate and, you know, try new
things in terms of, you know,new products, new ways of

(47:04):
streamlining our processes,always looking at new ways of
doing things better, like amachinery.
But I suppose the thing has beenyou know, those things are, are
always there.
You can always throw money atsomething to make it happen to,
to get your, to get your returnand your um and value out of
those investments, becausethey're considerable, right,
it's about using them asefficiently as possible, um, and

(47:28):
you know, even even for us.
You know, we've been in inbusiness, business for longer
than others in the Australasianmarket and we still haven't
reached our maximum capacity,you know.
So there's a long way to go,which is exciting because it's
only up from here.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
We've talked about the barrier in terms of like
your own or like you know, thebusiness innovation side of
things, and then the designpoint of view.
But what about the tradesinnovation side of things.
And then the design point ofview.
But what about the trades?
Is there a barrier for morepickup of this due to a lack of
skill set or understanding orwhatever around the actual
constructing or the assemblingof CLT?

Speaker 3 (48:04):
panels Initially.
Yes, I mean people don't wantto deviate away from what they
know right, and I mean, at theend of the day it's timber and
if a builder's not familiar withhow to trim a bit of timber
then they shouldn't be on abuilding site.
But I suppose many probablywere somewhat apprehensive to
engage with it.
But as part of that, as part ofkind of mainstreaming and

(48:28):
seeing how simple mass timbercan be and what level of
kindastema can be and what youknow, what level of kind of
familiarity can be drawn fromwhat they do currently, that's
where there's a higher degree ofconfidence For us.
I mean, we typically see, youknow, if we previously examined
in the early days, we wereinvolved in installs.

(48:49):
As part of that we wouldtypically align with main
contractors and you know, aspart of that they would be
on-site at part of that installjourney, two, three, four
iterations down the track,they're installing it themselves
, right?
So it's just a learning thing,I guess at the end of the day,
understanding the nuances of thematerial, the weights, the

(49:10):
considerations are on-site.
The material, the weights, theconsiderations are on site,
having key, certain specificequipment to install and move it
around.
But it's timber at the end ofthe day and it's easily managed,
which I think especially in NewZealand we're seeing the uptake
of that at a residential scaleespecially, which is awesome.

(49:31):
So yeah, I'd say still somework to do there in the trade
sam, but I think it's, it'sdefinitely a growing space in
terms of that familiarity, doyou guys?
offer training in that, like inthat realm yeah, so we we have a
lot of project managers as partof our business, so there's
there's obviously a we splitthings up into pre-construction,
which is anything to ourfactory, and then there's

(49:52):
obviously the delivery component.
That involves logistics andadvice in terms of install
sequence and methodology andthat sort of thing.
So, yeah, absolutely.
I mean we as a business wouldsupport that.
It only helps the use case ofthe product really Just got to
find a project now.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Then, jules, come on, really Just got to find a
project now then Joss, come on.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Mate Jordan, do you think that Guy Marrage, our
beloved thesis supervisor, hasany students that are working on
using AI and the combination ofAI and cross-laminated timber
to design some really efficient?

Speaker 3 (50:31):
buildings, cross-laminated timber aside, I
mean, imagine what art schoolsare like these days in terms of
getting stuff done.
I just think that whole designworld would be a different space
now than it was when we werethere.
But look, I think at the end ofthe day, going back to the
discussion we had before aboutinnovation and tools, it's a

(50:54):
tool to to do things better,right?
I suppose absolutely there'd beparametric, you know ai tools
that would allow you to optimizedesign and grid setouts and all
sorts of things that would havebeen fun would have saved you
some time.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Probably there's a lot of uh, probably would just
been different headaches yeahdifferent headaches.
More exciting headachespotentially, but I'm sure it's
actually happening.
I mean like, why wouldn't it beright?

Speaker 3 (51:18):
Of course, yeah, absolutely You'd think so.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
On that design side because you were an architect
first, well trained as anarchitect first.
George, do you have a favouriteCLT building?

Speaker 2 (51:28):
I've got many mate, Actually the Warranda studio.

Speaker 3 (51:33):
Oh, you've got me, mate.
Yeah, that was it.
I knew it all along.
Honestly, sam, like I think youknow, we started off this
discussion around Ben and Igoing off to the Prefab NZ
conference while we're doing ourthesis.
For me, timber I've alwaysloved timber, you know.
It's something I grew up with,with my old man building things
growing up, and I I supposeyou're, you're raised at itm,

(51:57):
weren't you plug?
Yeah, no, that, that's right.
Yeah, you know, stacking,stacking, uh, 90 by 45 and you
know, yeah, filleting, filletingtimber to be dried and all
sorts of things.
But as part of that that I'vealways had a close association
with timber as a material.
I even look back at, prior tothesis year, all my design

(52:20):
projects at uni.
They always integratedsomething I remember.
I love timber.
It was just me, I suppose,favorite projects, sam, to
answer that question.
I actually just love going onany timber site, whether it's a
small resi project or a scion, ascion or a.
I haven't been on the Fisherand Paykel site, but you know
these amazing landmark projectsabsolutely.
You sort of marvel at what canbe achieved with timber.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
They just have a different.
Go inside and just take a bigsniff, breathe it in.

Speaker 3 (52:47):
It sounds a bit crazy , but I do.
You know there's somethingspecial about a timber project,
especially a large commercialone.
So it's, and you know we'relucky to have been involved in
projects here in new zealand andaustralia where, during varying
levels of complexity, scale is,is, is the next thing, which
you know obviously is somewhatawe-inspiring, when you, you

(53:08):
know, stand there and go, thisis timber, at the minute we're,
we, we've finished ourinvolvement, but we've just
supplied a 100-meterclear-spanning timber hanger for
Air New Zealand in Auckland.

Speaker 1 (53:21):
I've seen the concepts for that.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
You stand in that thing and just think that that's
timber, it's just.
Yeah, you're mind boggles.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
Thanks for your time, george.
Thanks guys.
Thanks for coming on.
It's fun to chat.
Yeah, you might bongos.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Thanks for your time, george.

Speaker 3 (53:33):
Thanks guys, thanks for coming on.
It's fun to chat.

Speaker 2 (53:35):
Yeah, it's good to talk about timber.