May 1, 2024 • 56 mins
Delve deep into the world of landscape architecture, with our guest, Charlotte Warren, whose roots are deeply entwined with the land. Charlotte, a seasoned landscape architect from Studio Pacific Architecture, shares her journey and opens our eyes to the profound relationship between the natural and built environment. As we traverse this terrain, we delve into the importance of green spaces, the role of landscape architects in city resilience, and how urban design impacts our daily lives. Charlotte's international experiences, including her work in cities like Auckland, London, and Wellington, provide a unique lens through which we examine the integration of ecological and social considerations from the inception of architectural projects.
Venture into the heart of urban living where landscapes meet lifestyle, discussing the delicate balance needed for high-density environments to accommodate play spaces vital for children and family life. We shed light on the historical urban planning models that have shaped our cities and consider the legacy of landscape architecture in future-proofing our urban spaces. The conversation spans from the practical to the personal, and looks at how we can navigate the potential for landscape architecture to enhance residential experiences, challenging the conventional separation of built and natural environments.
As we wrap up this insightful discussion, we ponder the aesthetic and functional dimensions of landscape design. We weigh the merits of native against exotic plants, the cultural significance of historical indigenous cultivation, and the critical importance of soil health. By elevating the conversation beyond mere aesthetics, Charlotte demonstrates the powerful influence landscape architecture has on our cultural and environmental heritage. Join us this week and discover the greenie within you.
0:12 - Introduction
8:04 - Urban Design and Landscape Architects
13:18 - Importance of Landscape Architecture Integration
19:33 - Landscapes Role In Densification
24:56 - Value Engineering in Landscape Architecture
34:52 - Species - what should we plant?
47:52 - Design Approach of Landscape Architects
Key links from this episode:
WCC Regional Planting Guide - https://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/Documents/2021/10/Wellington-Regional-Native-Plant-Guide-Revised-Edition-2010-Web.pdf
Kiss the Ground - https://kissthegroundmovie.com/
Venture into the heart of urban living where landscapes meet lifestyle, discussing the delicate balance needed for high-density environments to accommodate play spaces vital for children and family life. We shed light on the historical urban planning models that have shaped our cities and consider the legacy of landscape architecture in future-proofing our urban spaces. The conversation spans from the practical to the personal, and looks at how we can navigate the potential for landscape architecture to enhance residential experiences, challenging the conventional separation of built and natural environments.
As we wrap up this insightful discussion, we ponder the aesthetic and functional dimensions of landscape design. We weigh the merits of native against exotic plants, the cultural significance of historical indigenous cultivation, and the critical importance of soil health. By elevating the conversation beyond mere aesthetics, Charlotte demonstrates the powerful influence landscape architecture has on our cultural and environmental heritage. Join us this week and discover the greenie within you.
0:12 - Introduction
8:04 - Urban Design and Landscape Architects
13:18 - Importance of Landscape Architecture Integration
19:33 - Landscapes Role In Densification
24:56 - Value Engineering in Landscape Architecture
34:52 - Species - what should we plant?
47:52 - Design Approach of Landscape Architects
Key links from this episode:
WCC Regional Planting Guide - https://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/Documents/2021/10/Wellington-Regional-Native-Plant-Guide-Revised-Edition-2010-Web.pdf
Kiss the Ground - https://kissthegroundmovie.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ben Sutherland (00:12):
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
I'm Ben from Bear Architecturehere today with Sam from REIT
Architects and Gerard fromGerard Dombrowski Workshop, and
today on the show we have a veryspecial guest, Charlotte Warren
, friend of the pod.
So welcome, Char.
(00:33):
So Charlotte is a landscapearchitect from Wellington,
currently working at StudioPacific Architecture, and we
thought we'd just bring her onthe show to have a chat about
landscape and how it couldintegrate a little bit better
with our current architecturepractices.
Charlotte, why don't you giveus a bit of an introduction and
(00:58):
a rundown on who you are andwhat you're about?
How you got into landscapearchitecture?
Charlotte Warren (01:05):
Okay, hi, my name's Charlotte, to start off
with, I'm a landscape architect,and just a quick rundown of
exactly what landscapearchitecture is it is the design
of outdoor environments, fromthe smallest courtyard or back
garden through to citywidemaster plans.
It involves the complexintegration of cultural, social,
environmental factors andrelies on collaboration with a
(01:28):
whole raft of people, butspecifically mana, whenua,
architects, engineeringprofessions, ecologists and
planners.
How I sort of found myself inthis space?
I don't think I can kind ofcome to work and sort of think
about land in such a capacitywithout my kind of upbringing as
a rural kid.
So I I grew up in the Wairarapa, on a farm, and I think that
(01:50):
has a huge bearing on how I cameto be a landscape architect.
I fundamentally have alwaysloved being outside and I've
managed to find a professionthat if I'm not outside, I'm
imagining outdoor spaces always.
So it's pretty critical and,yeah, I guess that's something
that you and I then have incommon, that kind of growing up
(02:11):
on the land and perpetually kindof thinking about it a lot.
Ben Sutherland (02:15):
Definitely.
I think about it all the time,mainly around how I can use that
land to ride my dirt bike or,you know, your paddock car or
get up to travel, and how muchmore freedom you have growing up
on a farm.
True.
Charlotte Warren (02:34):
I'm pretty terrible with machinery, so
motorbikes were never my forte.
Sam Brown (02:38):
Awesome.
Charlotte Warren (02:38):
Yeah, maybe potentially why I've come to be
an urban dweller now is becauseme and vehicles don't really mix
.
But no, but yeah.
And so just quickly on kind ofmy background to date, I studied
down at Lincoln following theChristchurch earthquakes, which
was a very incredible time tomove to a new city as a
(03:02):
fresh-faced 18-year-old and meetpeople and study with people
and lecturers who are all kindof reeling from the loss of
their city and that really mademe understand the connection
that people have to place intotheir city.
And that's kind of stuck withme and is kind of a cornerstone
of my practice is reallythinking about that connection
(03:25):
to place and fostering that.
And I'm very fortunate to havestudied at that time in that
city where the course was justlargely tailored around.
You know, landscape is memorialand how does the city rebuild
it was, it was really formativeyeah, that's crazy.
Ben Sutherland (03:39):
How so did you?
Were you enrolled in to studydown there prior to the
earthquakes?
At some point?
Did you have kind of like Iguess, like second guess your
commitment to going and studyingdown there?
Charlotte Warren (03:57):
Yeah, well, you can either sort of study in
one of the three cities here inNew Zealand, either For me
growing up in the wider Gulf ofWellington, was much too close
and Auckland is a as a farm kid,and so Christchurch felt like a
good, a good balance.
But yeah, so the the secondearthquake happened in September
and I had to make that decisionof do I still go?
(04:21):
And I I decided to go and Idon't regret it for a minute.
It was, yeah, it was afantastic university scene in
lots of ways.
You know, there was no town, soit was very kind of a lot of
flat parties and a lot of funand a lot of kind of
longstanding friendships wereformed through that time.
So, and then from a studyingpoint of view, you know, all the
(04:44):
course was tailored aroundearthquake recovery, which was
which was an amazing pivot.
But yeah, from there I've sinceworked in auckland, london and
now wellington, so I've movedaround a bit and I think that's
kind of given me a goodperspective of different ways in
which people approach practiceand obviously different density.
(05:06):
And yeah, particularly seeingwhat's happening over in the UK
really makes you think aboutwhat we should be doing here in
little New Zealand.
Sam Brown (05:16):
This might be jumping in a bit quick, charlotte, but
it'd be really interesting toknow how much of that study, or
that time studying Christchurchpost-earthquake, is now
reflected in your work aroundmaybe resilience or other sort
of disaster recovery.
Charlotte Warren (05:33):
Yeah, I mean I've not been kind of lucky or
lucky is a sort of difficultword but I mean, obviously,
what's happening in New Zealandright now.
We see you know the effects ofclimate change and landscapes
needing to respond to that, andand you know how you kind of
create safe spaces and spacesthat deal with the kind of
(05:54):
forces of nature be it massiveflood events or or earthquakes
is obviously a little bitdifficult to plan for.
But but the events up in inauckland, the, the flooding over
the anniversary, uh yeah, andand the work that landscape
architects have done to, um,kind of future-proof some of
those more dense urbanenvironments, is is pretty
(06:15):
amazing and, you know, continuesto be critical as we, as we
increase the density of ourcities nice.
Ben Sutherland (06:22):
Yeah, that whole concept of densification I
guess is is pretty hectic and Ican imagine it would have been
like a complete contrast.
Your work in England as well,as opposed to little old
Wellington.
What were some of the earnings,I guess, from working over
(06:43):
there or working abroad andtravelling that you brought back
to Wellington?
Charlotte Warren (06:48):
Well, I think the thing about London as a city
is it's a masterclass in thatmedium density scale.
There's a lot of fantasticterrace housing, there's a lot
of great apartments, be it kindof you know four story up to
what I think less, less a fan ofis the 30 story stuff.
But it's a city that kind ofknows you know, it knows how to
(07:13):
do density and it plans for it.
It's got great park provisionslike public transport, good
streets and that that isentirely by design, that is good
planning policy and that's acity valuing civic space.
And so I guess when you kind ofthink about how they live over
(07:34):
there and trying to bring thatback to New Zealand, it's
difficult.
I'm not advocating for a sortof copy-paste scenario, but
there are really good learningsabout how we as a society can
sort of start to feel morecomfortable living at higher
density.
Gerard Dombroski (07:50):
Are there any key sort of decisions that
they've made that you sort oflook at as being ones that
really bring it together?
Charlotte Warren (07:56):
Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (07:57):
How is the city so liveable?
And specifically by design, Iguess.
Charlotte Warren (08:02):
From a landscape perspective.
You know a huge part of my rolewas the Greater London
Authority had this place-basedcalculator which essentially you
plugged in how many units thedevelopment was going to have,
you know, be it three-bedroom,four-bedroom, whether that was
open market or whether it wassocial housing, and that gave,
(08:23):
based based off, you know,previous developments like an
anticipated number of childrenwho would be living on that site
and at what age, and that gaveyou an amount, an area of play
space, that you should beaccounting for in your
development that's sointeresting, that collection or
that.
Ben Sutherland (08:41):
I guess they've got a lot of data to draw from,
but I can imagine that would besuch a powerful design tool to
work with.
We should definitely need to upour game in that realm, that's
for sure.
Gerard Dombroski (08:54):
Yeah so how does that sort of play out on
each sort of project scale, likeif you've got subdividing a
section or something in NewZealand and you're putting eight
units on, would you then haveto be required to have a little
bit of shared public play space?
How does that sort of work?
Charlotte Warren (09:13):
Yeah, I mean eight units is probably of a
slightly smaller scale than whenthis calculator would come into
play, but when you're sort oflooking at sort of 30 units,
that would be when and honestlyI can't quite recall the
threshold.
But I guess it's just somethingphilosophically for us to kind
of think about.
If you were to prioritize, youknow, just the consideration of
(09:37):
children living in these urbanenvironments, I don't feel like
here in New Zealand we quiteallow for that, feel like here
in New Zealand we we quite allowfor that.
I think the psychology is verymuch that you live in medium
density either prior to havingchildren or when children have
left home, and then you knowthat that period in the middle
you very much need your backyardyeah, I guess, like there's,
there's a discussion there of um, like I guess modernism was an
(10:01):
example of architects trying towork with landscape in a very
utopian sort of way.
Gerard Dombroski (10:07):
Let's make the buildings tall and give
everyone a shitload of greenspace and then a lot of those
turn to shit.
I guess we're urbanly probablynot super safe places for people
to hang out in yeah like astructured response to that
style, like Robin Hood Gardens.
Whilst beautiful architecturemaybe less favourable public
(10:32):
space.
Charlotte Warren (10:33):
Yeah, I think those kind of you know, the
tower and the park concepts ofurbanism were quite often
inherently and quite badlysituated sites and what was
actually offered on the groundwas often, you know, fairly
minimal.
You essentially had a hugetower and not much else, and
then, I'd argue, not muchconnection to that space.
Ben Sutherland (10:55):
Yeah, really not much to work with.
Charlotte Warren (10:58):
I'd say it was a failure of the architect to
engage a landscape architect inmodernism or potentially, lead
to its demise.
Sam Brown (11:07):
That's a good question, then, charlotte.
I mean so often and you askedthis before we started on the
recording like how many of ushave actually worked with a
landscape architect before?
I personally haven't, andGerard said that he has, but,
you know, not in any sort ofcontinuous or meaningful way.
I mean, it sounds like weshould be engaging with
(11:30):
landscape architects from youknow the initial stages of a
project.
I mean, there's a chance, Iguess, for you to advocate for
yourselves here, but do you wantto just sort of outline why the
importance of landscapearchitects and integrating a
building into the sort ofsociety well, the built
environment rather than it justbeing like an isolated structure
?
Charlotte Warren (11:51):
yeah, sure, I think as landscape architects we
are trained to think aboutspace in a systems way, be it
ecological systems or socialsystems, connectivity, ways of
living, those sorts of things,those, those concepts of how
land is is is used, are quitefundamental to the way in which
(12:13):
we think about design.
And so even just to think aboutit on a residential scale, in
the kind of conversations thatyou know you have with your
clients about what clients,about what type of meals they
have as a family Are they peoplewho are big entertainers, or is
mealtime not a particularlysignificant thing and that's how
you start to kind of shape thedesign of the kitchen there.
(12:36):
It's the same thinking of howyou ultimately want to behave on
your land.
Is that?
Do you want to be creating ascenario where you know the idea
of you know Tui's visiting youat home and thinking through
okay, well, I want to be sittingin my back garden and I want to
be able to hear the sound ofthe Tui, which is, I think, the
(12:58):
ultimate dream for any NewZealander who's fortunate enough
to have a back garden.
But you sort of start to thinkabout those concepts and build
out a design based on that, interms of species, in terms of
spaces be it for social or, morecontemplative, obviously,
production, all those sorts ofthings.
(13:18):
I think the integration with thesite and with the broader
context is really critical.
But it's that whole piece,isn't it?
It's designing spaces in thesame way that architects do to
live the life you ultimatelywant to live, and creating that
through the lands.
The thing that I think our realstrength as landscape
architects and, amongst otherthings, is the levels piece.
(13:42):
I think, as landscapearchitects, compared to
architects, levels is somethingwe really understand and and
really try and work with andutilize.
I mean, my life for the pastyear has been ramps and stairs
and integration with levels andall sorts of things, so I've
been busy with the detaileddesign project, but I think that
that is, yeah, that's our realstrength is that is that systems
(14:02):
thinking and and thatintegration integration.
Sam Brown (14:06):
You put that really beautifully and it's interesting
.
I'm sitting here in lake hawaialooking out my window and the
landscape surrounding thistownship is it's breathtaking,
it's absolutely stunning.
But the township itself,particularly the new development
areas that I'm looking at athere, is stark and almost
apocalyptic, and it's so clearthat landscape's not been taken
(14:29):
into account on any site reallywhatsoever, and it's a shame
really, and I mean I'm reallycoming at this from a
residential perspective, butthere's so much scope for better
engagement with the environmentaround and it seems like it's
almost a necessity thatlandscape architects are engaged
to sort of help better these,particularly these suburban
(14:50):
developments.
Ben Sutherland (14:52):
Yeah, this is something I kind of find
interesting.
Throughout history, when youpurchase a property and you
intend to build a typicalresidential house, that really
only involves the design andconstruction of the actual
building itself.
Never includes a landscapedesigner of any description, or
(15:12):
very rarely.
Which is quite interesting inits own right, though, because
basically what that means is youhave your bit of land and your
house is kind of plonked on it,and then, over the year or two,
it's up to the owners or theoccupants to craft that
(15:34):
landscape or sculpture thatlandscape in a way that they
want to, I guess.
So there's still somethingquite nice about that.
I guess it's quite a nicethought.
However, as our cities canidentify, even in places like
how we are, especially with likethe medium density realm, you
actually have to design thelandscaping within that project,
(15:59):
so it's meant to be like alittle mini replica, I guess
they say, of what we, what weuse a quarter acre style living
but the the developers kind ofalready contracted a landscape
architect and tried to I don'tknow if it's just to dress up
the, the building, or if it'swell, I guess it is a necessity
(16:22):
for resource consent, but it'sjust interesting that now we are
required to do some sort ofdesign, although it's terrible
compared to standaloneresidential, where you don't
have that requirement at all andit kind of just grows naturally
.
What are your thoughts on thatkind of natural manner of
(16:44):
landscaping versus the moreplanned landscaping shelf?
Charlotte Warren (16:48):
Yeah, well, I think I guess it depends on the
person, doesn't it?
Or if you take just a purelystandard 7,500 square metre
section, the 200 square metrehouse goes on it and then
there's essentially 300 squaremetres left.
So the way of thinking of it isit's like half of the site has
been considered in some ways,and what do you do with the rest
(17:11):
?
And yeah, I think that in somany ways, the kind of
integration with architects andlandscape architects, it's such
a happy marriage.
You know, we, we have quiteoften very similar training, but
I did architects, residentialarchitects in particular.
There's, there's just it feelslike there is a real opportunity
to start to integrate landscapearchitecture into a residential
(17:33):
context, and there's there'slots of landscape architects
doing it and there's lots oflandscape designers doing it.
But I think it's a societyvaluing that and and what you
can ultimately get out of that,because it's kind of like a
utilization of half of whatyou've got, which, from a
farming perspective, is thiswould be a poor utilization of
land in some ways but, anyway,but that's kind of one thing.
(17:55):
You know you can get so much outof outdoor environments.
I think if you sort of thinkabout your happiest memories,
it's often when you're outsideand you know you can really
create that with your own spaceand as as designers we're, we're
spatial in the way we think,but actually a lot of society
isn't, and there is real valueof integrating a landscape
(18:17):
architect into your work becauseyou'll find that the outcome
isn't what you would haveimagined otherwise.
I think the question about kindof medium density environments,
that's when things, inparticular in New Zealand, are
getting really thorny.
You know you go and you walk upMount Iron and you look at
what's happening in Wanaka interms of the spread of sort of
(18:39):
those.
You know single detached homesat an alarming rate spreading
out into what is an incrediblybeautiful landscape.
You know you have to questionat what point when sites, you
know, when they get smaller andsmaller, at what point would you
be happier in an apartmentwhere you could look at the
mountains rather than look intoa Pinus radiata 1.8-metre fence
(19:01):
that's, you know, three metresfrom your living room window?
I mean it's a prettyinteresting time.
Residential design in newzealand and particularly, I
think, down south and in aroundthose lakes yeah, the shrinking,
the shrinking lot size is a bigconcern.
Sam Brown (19:18):
I mean, you look, you're talking about lot sizes
up to 200 square meters, with150 square meter house on them
in some instances, and it's allthey have, is that four.
You know that four meter circleof outdoor space and that's it
really.
Ben Sutherland (19:33):
But would you prefer that?
Environments but do.
Would you prefer that or wouldyou prefer everyone to just go
out and have their own quarteracre section like?
Would you prefer spread orwould you prefer densification?
That's the thing.
Surely densification is abetter answer.
Sam Brown (19:52):
I think so.
Gerard Dombroski (19:53):
You can't take a city from apartment block to
paddock.
Ben Sutherland (19:58):
No, I 100% agree , there's always going to be a
blurring.
Sam Brown (20:02):
There has to be a blurring, the mountain has to
crumble right.
So there's always going to bethat built-up area in the center
of whatever place it be, be ita city, be it a township, around
all the facilities andinfrastructure and the amenities
, and then it's going to alwaysfind grain out.
But I don't disagree then thatI think, and charlotte, you know
(20:23):
that the sprawl is the issue.
The issue here is that there isno peak, it's essentially a
very small mound and then a very, very, very, very, very long
sort of decline down to farmlandyeah.
Gerard Dombroski (20:37):
I think there's like a bit of an error
in making well, a making housesthat's slightly smaller than
your section, which is prettyhorrible.
We all love a pine fence, but Ithink as well for, like the age
of the city, like you get thoseolder suburbs that have trees
and like a mix of housing,whereas a lot of these suburbs
(21:00):
are never going to have a mix,they're all just going to be
spec city like.
At least with the older plotlayouts they were quite deep.
It actually allows for thatsubdivision over time.
So maybe in those outer zonesyou have larger section sizes
that one day, if there's anothermicro city or another transport
(21:24):
node out there that requiresdensification, then it's less
jarring of a bowling the wholecity.
I think there's discussionaround tying landscape
architects more into thearchitecture process is pretty
epic and it's definitelysomething I've started to notice
within my practice.
(21:45):
Yeah, just because theconnection to earth with your
building is so integral to theoutcome of your architecture.
Quite often it gets taken outbecause it's cost-cutting or
value engineering.
The client gets you into thejob and they've got no money,
which is the realities of itsometimes.
Ben Sutherland (22:03):
But to have a plan in place is pretty
important, and a good example ofthat is the one you're working
on for your mum at the moment,isn't it, where you've basically
built the house around acourtyard style?
I mean, courtyard architectureis definitely a fad at the
moment the house is.
Gerard Dombroski (22:23):
we've called the house the secret garden
house just because mum talkedabout the secret garden story as
a kid, so we said this kind ofromantic notion of a fence and
then through the fence is thismagical pine fence so you don't
(22:44):
see it from the outside.
It looks like a building fromthe outside when you come inside
.
Ben Sutherland (22:49):
Secret garden.
Gerard Dombroski (22:51):
Hopefully a magical courtyard which we
started planting fairly early on.
Sam Brown (22:56):
Yeah, that's what I was.
Gerard Dombroski (22:58):
By the time you get to the end of the job.
Sam Brown (23:00):
That's what I was going to say.
I mean, you've taken a reallyinteresting and pragmatic
approach in that you've sort ofsemi-finished the building and
now planting to let it build up.
So at the completion it's likewell established.
I mean, charlotte, how often doyou get that opportunity to
integrate landscape into thearchitecture during the
construction process, or is itso often not necessarily an
(23:21):
afterthought but certainly apost sort of?
Building construction approachor thought uh I mean in.
Charlotte Warren (23:29):
In my case, when I'm working on larger civic
realm projects.
It's very much at the forefront.
It's not, it's not kind ofconsidered this, this phase of
work that happens in afterarchitecture.
It's very much an integratedthing.
But I I mean it depends.
I mean in the residentialcontext.
(23:50):
What happens a lot these daysis that in a streetscape and
open space context, the councilrequires the developer to build
those elements first so that theplants are established at the
point that people move in.
So that is quite often whathappens and but I mean, I guess
(24:13):
it entirely depends on theclient and what they prioritize.
If architecture is kind of and Ithink maybe that's, you know,
that's somewhere I thinksomething that architects could
potentially look to develop inthat residential context is is
thinking of the two in tandemand bringing an landscape
architect in at that conceptstage.
And that's not to say thatthey'd be engaged to other
projects certainly not but thatthey can start to.
(24:36):
You can work together andinfluence the outcome to create
something.
That's richer than thinking ofthe two as two independent
pieces, because it is sointerlinked that indoor and
outdoor space.
If you get that right, both atany scale, then the project is
so much better for it.
Ben Sutherland (24:56):
Just out of curiosity, do you see much value
engineering in landscapearchitecture, kind of like for
general architecture or a houseor something?
You may design something, butthen over time it gets refined
down to its essence, so to speak.
Is that like a similar thing inlandscape.
Charlotte Warren (25:18):
Yes, landscape architecture certainly is
immune to value engineering,unfortunately.
Yeah, it's an ongoing, it is.
It is as prevalent in ourindustry as it is in yours.
Obviously, that's you know, youstart, you know, if you're
thinking just that, that youknow same things it's finish of.
(25:39):
You know all surfaces, allthose sorts of things, quality
of of of fixed furniture, plants, both species, selection and
grade, the size of plants, depthof topsoil, you know, nothing
is immune.
It's all considered in thatvalue engineering exercise.
Ben Sutherland (25:58):
Just interesting because it exists.
It certainly exists.
I guess this is debatable, butmore in the public realm and
potentially more in the publicrealm than I guess that is
debatable, but more in thepublic realm, potentially more
in the public realm, then Iguess that's not true.
Architecture is in the samecontext, is extremely public as
well, but I guess it creates thein-between spaces which is used
(26:19):
a lot every day.
So I wouldn't have thoughtthey'd be skimping on resilience
and material quality and thatsort of thing.
But yeah, it's interesting.
Charlotte Warren (26:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's the difference of
material.
It might be moving from anatural stone finish to an
exposed aggregate finish, orreducing the amount of hardscape
and increasing the amount ofsoftscape, which in and of
itself is, you know, that'ssomething that landscape
architects are always trying toget that balance just right,
providing enough hardscape, youknow, paving, paved areas,
(26:56):
sealed areas to allow whateversocial functions you need in
terms of both movement anddwelling, but then having as
much softscape as you possiblycan to, you know, obviously,
from an environmental point ofview, you know, with planting
and regeneration and trying toimprove the ecological quality
of that area, and then alsomitigation of stormwater.
(27:18):
You know that's a, that's ahuge piece of of landscape
architecture and, you know, inthe coming years and incoming
projects, even now you're seeingparticularly, or anywhere
really, the necessity forstormwater to be considered in
the design.
Sam Brown (27:35):
I'd be really interested, charlotte, to sort
of feed it down a little bitdeeper.
You just touched on it a littlebit, I guess, in terms of your
balance between softscape andhardscape, but I'd be really
interested to get a little bitmore of an insight into sort of
your design process and how youcome up with those judgment
calls and material selectionsand things like that.
Charlotte Warren (27:54):
Yeah, well, I'm just trying to think of a
good example to talk through it.
But essentially, yeah, it'salways difficult because
obviously through the wintermonths, months having too much
softscape, ie too much too muchlawn or or planting, can kind of
if it's if it's a civic realmproject in particular kind of
(28:15):
limit the usability of thatspace through through the winter
months.
So that kind of encourages morehardscape but then conversely,
that has a higher carbonfootprint in terms of um, you
know the, the buildup and allthose sorts of things, and then
also limits usability in thesummer months.
So it's a hard one to kind ofit's very site specific and you
(28:39):
know the levels conversationalways works into it if you're
working with like a flat site ora hilly site, if you're working
with like a flat site, or ahilly site, but essentially I'm
always advocating for as muchshaftscape as we possibly can,
just from trying to lower thecarbon footprint as much as
possible.
And yeah, just I thinkultimately hardscape is the
(29:01):
default material and often itdoesn't need to be.
I think, particularly when youhead over to Europe, even spaces
which are much more used herein New Zealand material, and
often it doesn't need to be.
I think, particularly when youhead over to europe, even spaces
which are much more used herein new zealand people are very
content with gravel and hogging,whereas here we, you know we
love exposed aggregates.
Sam Brown (29:14):
So default surface always and how often are you
sort of taking into existingsite conditions and or like the
history of the site when you'reconsidering those areas as well?
Charlotte Warren (29:28):
Yeah, always, always, it's very critical and
you know, civic realm projects,the engagement, the sort of
co-design process with ManaWhenua is critically important
and you know that's something aslandscape architects we've
really built our capacity in,you know, um, in recent years in
particular.
And so when you, when youattend the institute's awards
(29:52):
evening, it's mana whenua whoare up there taking those awards
and and rightly so, they're,they're integral to the design
process and they really shapeand enrich a project and, um,
yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it'sa very important piece of work.
But then obviously there's, youknow, there's other histories
to consider there, in terms ofEuropean history as well.
So that is a layer.
(30:13):
But yeah, that site assessmentfrom that cultural lens is
really significant.
And then obviously theecological lens as well.
You know what ecology was thereand trying your utmost to try
and recreate that sort ofproviding habitat for birds.
You know what ecology was thereand trying your utmost to try
and recreate that sort ofproviding habitat for birds.
You know, choosing your plantselection.
If you get that right, you knowyou've got your tui and your
back garden and that's sospecial, so it's critical.
Sam Brown (30:38):
It's interesting.
You know you've seen those sortof examples of reclaimed cities
where the landscape sort of youknow, the city's being left
derelict for whatever reason beit post-nuclear fallout or
something along those lines andyou know nature's sort of
reclaimed the city and it's beenleft to grow organically.
It must be quite hard to strikethat balance between
(31:01):
fabricating spaces and lettingit grow organically.
It would be interesting to getyour take on how you sort of
balance that.
Charlotte Warren (31:10):
Yeah, in sort of urban environments, that's a
particular struggle becauseyou're also trying to balance,
you know, safety concerns andfacilitating passive
surveillance after dark andpreserving sight lines through
space.
So they're often governed.
You know, creating a lowerstory which is kind of below
(31:33):
1,200 and then having clear stemtrees which is kind of, you
know, the canopy starts at twometres high to create safe
outdoor space.
And I mean that's a criticalpart of landscape design and a
huge piece of my work is,particularly as a female
landscape architect is, you knowthe equality in space after
dark really governs designdecisions.
(31:53):
So it's a really big battlethat is getting that right.
But ultimately there's a lotyou can do in regenerative
planting, you know, in terms ofimproving ecological value and
bringing species back.
You know, in terms of improvingecological value and bringing
species back, we, we know a lotabout what birds, how much um
area birds need in order to bein, you know, to to habitat in
(32:13):
that zone, and we can workpretty hard and go a long way to
kind of creating those spacesfor them it's amazing.
Sam Brown (32:21):
I've never really thought about that like
two-tiered planting and keepingthose clear lines of sight.
I mean I guess it's a realmI've not worked in before and
yeah, it's just fascinating tohear that you know to that level
of detail, you know even theplanting and separation and
openness is considered at school.
Ben Sutherland (32:40):
Yeah, I've always thought basically exactly
what you're talking about.
I'm not sure where you'regetting this information from
about the plants and the speciesand the bird life and that sort
of thing, but I've alwaysthought it would be awesome to
have like a map of your regionthat shows what plants work best
(33:01):
, growing in what areas and whatpercentage currently exists
there and you know, like I guesslike a bit more data around
what could be planted to improvethe environment within that
region and basically what you'retalking about with bringing
bird life back and especiallylike bees and that sort of thing
.
So it's really cool to hear youtalk about that sort of thing
(33:23):
and I'd love to know whereyou're getting that information
from, because I've tried to lookbefore.
That's.
Yeah, it must be pretty deep inthere.
Charlotte Warren (33:36):
No, yeah, Greater Wellington Regional
Council has a 12-carat zoneswithin the kind of wider
Wellington region, whichencompasses the wider upper as
well, and the kind of remnantplants that would have been
there and that are now there andgives you an incredible list of
(33:56):
really good plants to use thatare kind of local to to that
area.
But yeah to you to your pointabout that pseudo pacific
actually prior to my timeproduced the green work, green
network plan for wellington citycouncil and that sort of talks
about.
You know how big of roleactually the private space has
(34:17):
to play in people planting thecorrect things in their back
garden and what that can do forincreasing both canopy coverage
and bird life in our cities.
So there is a lot we can dowithin the residential design
space to increase both theecological value of our cities
and the bird life in our cities.
Sam Brown (34:38):
I'll put a link to that in our show notes.
Sorry, just quickly.
Yeah, I'll put a link to thatin our show notes because,
you're right, charlotte, it's apretty incredible little
document.
Ben Sutherland (34:46):
It's a powerful tool.
Sam Brown (34:47):
Lots of people don't know where to find it.
Sorry, Gerard, go for it, mate.
Gerard Dombroski (34:52):
The species chat.
I find quite a key one.
Chat, I find quite a key one.
I kind of wish all thearchitecture kids at uni had to
do at least one landscape paperjust to kind of give like a
little bit of base understanding.
I think it would go a long wayto helping all this.
But around the the speciesstuff, sometimes I get a little
(35:16):
frustrated that somedevelopments only do native
plants or something.
So I'm a big blossom fan, lovea blossom.
So in mum's house we've gotabsolutely chaos.
Everything Lots of colour, lotsof things going on, as well as
(35:36):
natives.
We've got cool fire.
Where we've got we've got amini rata or something.
But like around around specieschat, do you want to give us a
little rundown on what's what'syour go-to and what are some
bangers that we can pull out for?
Ben Sutherland (35:48):
our projects and don't say egg of panthers do
not say anything
Charlotte Warren (35:57):
I.
I heard your um you commentabout agapanthus.
They're actually.
Agapanthus are officially aweed in this country.
Sam Brown (36:04):
They're really the problem.
What about gorse?
Charlotte Warren (36:06):
Yeah, yeah, they're one of those plants that
was kind of bought in and wasvery popular and now they are.
Yeah, they're a big problem,but their their root system
makes them very cumbersome toget rid of.
So that, yeah they're, they'reon my hip list.
I'm not an agar panther fan,even when they're in full bloom.
(36:30):
I don't.
I don't understand their sortof respect value.
Sam Brown (36:35):
Um, I've found a partner in crime.
Team anti agar panthers I standin solidarity.
Charlotte Warren (36:41):
But yes to your, to your point, gerard,
that's, yeah, the, thegrizzolinia literalis, which we
sort of colloquially known asthe developer's hedge, which has
this very hardy it's actuallynative green, sort of quite waxy
, quite bright green waxy leaf.
That's also on my hit list.
It's called the developer'shedge because it's just been
(37:01):
completely overused.
It's hardy and it growseverywhere.
Sam Brown (37:06):
So that's, that's definitely on my hit list I was
going to plant one of thosetomorrow, should I not?
Charlotte Warren (37:16):
actually down down south there's a grizzly
linear canterbury which has asmaller leaf, that's less waxy
and it's actually really I quitelike that.
I just specifically have beefwith the grizzly linear
littoralis.
Sam Brown (37:29):
I can't tell you which one it is.
Charlotte Warren (37:32):
And then we have spheridated dog plant.
Oh really.
Sam Brown (37:34):
Okay, no sure.
Charlotte Warren (37:35):
But yeah, I think, yeah, the thing about our
native species is they'veevolved with the ecology that
we've got, so obviously with nomammals.
Here in new zealand we havewhite things to attract, which
was white things to attractbirds, white flowers to attract
birds and blue things to attractlizards or insects.
(37:56):
So that's sort of why we havequite we don't have particularly
.
You know, we have quite a mutedcolour palette in terms of our
flowers.
But I'm not opposed to the useof exotics, but I think that the
value that you have in terms ofimproving the ecological value,
I think planting should bepredominantly native, but the
kind of accents of exotics isdefinitely.
(38:17):
I'm not opposed to a cherryeither.
I quite like a cherry.
Gerard Dombroski (38:21):
A gingko.
I didn't know that colour thing.
Sam Brown (38:24):
Yeah, that's fascinating, is it?
Ben Sutherland (38:26):
yellow for bees as well, or did I just make that
up?
Charlotte Warren (38:31):
Blue is a taito.
That's how it's pronounced.
If that's wrong, ben, we'regoing to have to cut that out.
I think that's how it'spronounced.
If that's wrong, ben, we'regoing to have to cut it out.
But yeah, what are some plantsthat I really like at the moment
?
Euphorbia that's probably myfavourite.
You see that quite a lot.
It's a coastal plant and it'sjust very wavy.
I like the plants.
(38:51):
I mean maybe it's part of beinga Wellingtonian that really
move in the wind.
So any grasses, you know, we'reso lucky in New Zealand We've
got such beautiful kerricks.
There's a conica, I have a real.
I tend to just know the sort ofbotanical name, but I put
absolutely no energy in my lifeto the correct pronunciation.
(39:13):
So if any landscape architectslisten to this, they're just
kidding their hands at how shepronounces things, because it's
truly it's not a focus of mine,but it should be.
I write them, I didn't say them.
What are some plant?
The plants that I really like?
Auckland, actually, I, I mustconfess, because they're in a
subtropical band.
They're just a little bitfurther north.
They have access to a fewbeautiful trees that we don't
(39:36):
quite have down here.
And then South Island again, Imean that's quite interesting.
The South Island because, inparticular, where you are, sam,
in that they have, you know thatquite that real adoption of the
deciduous trees which must makebeing down at this time of year
quite beautiful.
It's something that's importantbut it is actually really it's
(39:57):
quite nice.
Driving through Arrowtown today.
Sam Brown (40:01):
Yeah, they're just turning and driving through
Arrowtown today it's sort ofit's hitting that autumn glow.
It is pretty stunning.
Unfortunately, in Hawi thereare only pines, so yeah.
All wild, yeah, wild and pinesand a bit of eucalypt um
(40:24):
surprisingly I can see out mywindow, but it's all right.
Gerard Dombroski (40:26):
I just like deciduous trees.
I quite like.
Using them in architectureprojects is like you can have
them near a building but thenand use them for their inherent
qualities when they lose theirleaves or whatever summer shade
and winter light.
So that's a pretty epictemperature moderation tool,
which is kind of why we've gotthem in the courtyard at Mum's
(40:49):
house.
We're trying to create kind oflike a semi-cool zone so that
that kind of creates a chimneyeffect and then the other sides
are hot, so trying to pull airthrough.
So I think there's such a hugetoolkit there that I wish I knew
more about that you can reallyuse to ground and enrich your
(41:12):
architecture.
Ben Sutherland (41:12):
Yeah, absolutely , charlotte.
What is your opinion?
This is for the Gerarddombroski's of the world.
Are you pro architects doinglandscape or do you think it's
more of a stick to your lanetype of thing?
Have you?
Have you seen a lot ofarchitects?
(41:32):
Kind of so much because youknow a designer.
Designers in general seem tothink that you know they can
design anything.
So, yeah, what's your opinionon that?
Charlotte Warren (41:51):
well, I think I think you know to.
To answer honestly, I wouldn'tattempt to design a building, I
guess.
Well, I guess it's sort oflike… it's a tough question.
Gerard Dombroski (42:01):
Is that a claim?
You'll?
Ben Sutherland (42:02):
make.
No, I want this here.
Charlotte Warren (42:09):
Okay, I'll re-answer this.
I think in my experience andthen that comes with working in
a big studio and working on bigprojects is the more exposure
you have to people who arespecialists in their field be it
wayfinding specialists, be itan ecologist, be it an architect
(42:31):
the richer the design isbecause you, as a designer, know
your lane really well andalthough you're trained and you
have a sense of things, yourskill set only goes so far and
so you know, for example, aplanting list.
We can put together a reallygood planting list, but if an
(42:54):
ecologist is to review thatplanting list, they'll be able
to pull that on by such a way,because they just have that
technical understanding andskill set that I don't have.
Well, I do have, but they'regoing to be better at it.
And I think that's the same forarchitects.
These architects can kind ofeke into the world of landscape
(43:14):
architects and some architectsare fantastic landscape
designers, but we think aboutthings and we approach problems
in different ways, and I thinkthe richest projects are ones
that involve all of those skillsets.
Ben Sutherland (43:27):
Yeah, that must be quite hard sometimes as well
because it is a bit of a blurredline, especially in the
residential realm.
We've had a bunch of projectswhere we want to be so involved
in how the actual layout of thelandscape or the surrounding
context works, just so it isintegrated nicely with the
(43:49):
actual building itself thatpotentially it has in some areas
detracted a little bit from.
We had a landscape from anearlier timeframe.
Sam Brown (44:01):
Charlotte, it was interesting to hear you just
talk about wayfindingspecialists and ecologists.
Are they sort of would youconsider them like subsets of
landscape architecture?
Are they separate consultantsthat you'd also sort of engage
with through the landscapedesign process?
Charlotte Warren (44:19):
Yeah, those are entirely different
professions, so depending on thesize of projects, you know
wayfinding specialists is anemerging field, both within
architecture and landscapearchitects.
That is just invaluable.
You go to an airport and youknow when a wayfinding
consultant hasn't been on board,because you're running around
(44:40):
blindly trying to find your gate.
And then there's other airportsyou go to and the experience is
just completely seamless.
Or you know when you'renavigating through a city and
the sign where do I go next?
And then you just look up andthere's this sign there.
That's when a good wayfindingspecialist has been engaged and
you see that, in particular,some of the work.
That's when a good wayfindingspecialist has been engaged and
you see that, in particular,some of the work that's
happening in Auckland, incentral Auckland right now,
(45:01):
that's the work of really goodwayfinding specialists.
Sam Brown (45:04):
Isn't it?
Charlotte Warren (45:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a really cool field,but they tend to only work on,
obviously, wayfinding, by nature, is large in size, so that's
when you're working on much,much broader projects.
I mean, it's definitely a skillthat landscape architects have,
but in some cases it'swayfinding specialists.
Quite often there's a strongintegration with graphic design,
(45:28):
so they'll also design thesignage and things, and so quite
often it's a separate piece.
Sometimes it's folded into thescope of a landscape architect,
but other times it's a separateconsultant.
Gerard Dombroski (45:40):
To go back a little bit to landscape, do you
think landscape architects havemuch of like an aesthetic
language?
The only one I can think of isPeter Rudolph, who's, I think,
got a very strong visuallanguage.
Charlotte Warren (45:55):
I guess it's sort of a difficult question.
I think there's definitely, Imean, similar to architecture in
that there are defined styles,but, and you know, an architect
who is designing a home inAuckland wouldn't design the
same home that they werebuilding in Queenstown, for
example.
So it's you know that theremight be some linking elements
(46:16):
or linking styles, but thatsite-specific element is quite
different.
Gerard Dombroski (46:20):
That would be sweet.
Charlotte Warren (46:22):
What was it sorry?
Gerard Dombroski (46:24):
I'll just throw some schist on it.
Yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Warren (46:30):
Yeah, but I think with landscape
architecture potentially more sothan architecture you're
working at typically a muchlarger scale.
So the site and the levels ofthe site, what it's connecting
to you know the demands on itmeans that architecture or sort
of a design style across onepractice is potentially harder
(46:53):
to find.
Sam Brown (46:56):
Would you say that you have a, a design, not
necessarily style, but like adesign flair or something that
you look to integrate in all thework that you do?
Be it, I don't really know,like a style of seating or style
of ramping or planting, or theway you lay something out like
is there something that youcould draw?
(47:17):
Our last discussion was aboutsort of the lineage of our
design and creating likechronology through, uh, design
development.
Would you say that you'vecreated that through your
landscape design?
Charlotte Warren (47:28):
yeah, I think that's potentially less of a
focus for for my work.
I think what ultimately drivesmy work is responding to social
or environmental issues and thatkind of informs things,
potentially more so than aspecific design language.
I think I'm quite happy for theaesthetic in some ways to be
(47:51):
quite site specific.
I think landscape architecture,although it is inherently
beautiful, I think aesthetic ispotentially less of a focus than
it is inherently beautiful.
I think aesthetic ispotentially less of a focus than
it is in architecture.
I think what kind of you know,functionality and meaning and
and those responding to kind ofsocial, cultural, environmental
stuff governs, governs theoutcome more so than an
(48:15):
aesthetic drive.
I I don't know if that'sprobably safe, but there would
probably be landscape architectswho'd be screaming at this and
very much disagree with me, butI sort of think of landscape
architecture in that way.
It's more of an integration ofthose other elements than
aesthetics.
Gerard Dombroski (48:32):
It's such a big field, being 99% of the
earth.
Charlotte Warren (48:40):
That's not to say it's all designed by
landscape architects, thoughwe're not holding the pen
everywhere.
Sam Brown (48:46):
I heard a claim the other day that the Amazon is
like 70% designed becausethey've found like cultivations
of species of plants that arelike en masse, that don't make
sense naturally, and so thatwere the massive cities, the
mine, yeah also apparently thepopulation of the amazon's
(49:10):
decreased by something like 30or 40.
Maybe it's even more than thanthat.
Charlotte Warren (49:15):
But sorry, that's a bit of a digression,
but I guess what I'm leaning tois maybe the earth is all
designed but it's not gettinginto theology.
Gerard Dombroski (49:29):
I think the cultures that were in the Amazon
were real into soil prep.
They could get crazy things togrow there in epic ways when I
was doing a large commercialproject.
Just the soil prep wasn'treally considered in the
workflow that well anddefinitely something I'd spend a
(49:49):
lot more attention on next,next time, because partially
because, uh, the planting allgot value engineered out and I
couldn't live with that so Idecided to plant it all myself.
Ben Sutherland (50:00):
And how many did you?
Gerard Dombroski (50:01):
plant.
Oh, it was thousands.
It was like four or five uteloads on my ute.
They're all fairly smallbecause the budget dropped, so
the plant size has dropped.
Charlotte Warren (50:19):
Sorry, sam, just to circle back to your
point before about designlandscapes.
I mean that was certainly thecase here in Wellington.
You know there were hugecultivated sites that the tribes
, the various iwi, were usinghere prior to colonisation were
using.
Here prior to colonisationthere was massive cultivation
(50:44):
fields, sort of you know.
Further south of where Te Arau,where the CBD is, you know
there was rich wetlands.
It was all kind of cultivatedto sustain life here in the city
.
A similar example down inChristchurch where cabbage trees
were used across the plains asa navigation field.
So there were, you know, iwisacross New Zealand had very much
(51:07):
shaped spaces to, you know, fortheir sustenance.
So we have that history here inNew Zealand and you know that's
a huge part of landscapearchitecture is trying to shed
light on that and trying to gosome way to making that known to
the public.
(51:27):
Because, yeah, it's definitely.
You know we have that historyin New Zealand.
Sam Brown (51:32):
Yeah, that's really beautiful.
That way of finding things isreally cool.
I think that's fascinating.
That is the epitome of a designlandscape really interesting to
see, you know, to see thatmaintained somehow on a larger
scale, you know, outside of sortof urban projects, and whether
that could be integrated intosort of rural environments a
little bit more.
Gerard Dombroski (51:52):
But yeah, that's, the country's gone too
far.
Charlotte Warren (51:55):
Yeah, exactly the um but the topsoil thing to
ride is also really interesting.
And that you know with yeah,that's good, get to the country,
it's gone too far, yeah,exactly.
But the topsoil thing to rideis also really interesting in
that, you know, with large-scalegreenfield development here
they sort of just rip the top300 mil of topsoil off, scrape
it all back and then Start again.
Yeah, it's a real problem andit's such a.
(52:16):
You know those.
You know I'm not an architect,but those you know, those
concrete slabs that you know webuild houses on these days.
It's not how we used to, youknow, yeah, but from an
environmental point of view, thekind of treatment of topsoil
here is very kind of elementaryin our understanding of it.
And there's, you know, there'swork going on and there's
(52:37):
learning going on and I'm verymuch at the first front door of
it.
But, yeah, that preservation oftopsoil and how it can be more
sympathetic in urban developmentis the next hurdle, both for
architects and landscapearchitects.
Ben Sutherland (52:51):
There's a great document called Kiss the Earth.
I think it's Kiss the Earth orKiss the Ground.
It's so interesting.
Everyone should watch itbecause it's absolutely
mind-blowing about soildegradation.
It's going to have a hugeimpact on on our crops and
potentially less so in thiscountry, significantly
(53:12):
noticeable in america, but yeah,that soil was key.
Charlotte Warren (53:23):
Takes a very long I think a centimetre of
topsoil was grown a year interms of the creation of the
humus layer and how that worksand so you really have to
protect it and you don't valueit enough.
But maybe that's kind of thefarming side of me the
preservation of topsoil and howspecial it is, and my dad spends
a lot of time trying to getthat just right, to get the
(53:43):
crops and the plants humming.
It's so critical and, yeah, inurban environments we can do
much better.
Sam Brown (53:51):
I'll link that Kiss the Ground film in the show
notes as well.
Yeah, awesome.
Gerard Dombroski (53:57):
Do you have any landscape architects that
you look to for all right, justfor froth or for reference or
for inspiration?
Charlotte Warren (54:07):
awesome job, yeah oh well, maybe, sam, to
your point of the aesthetics.
There was a landscape architectwho I was introduced to his
work at university and I stilljust think it's so amazing now.
His name's Kung Chang Yu.
He is a Chinese landscapearchitect who his whole
(54:28):
philosophy is this idea of big,beautiful feet, and so basically
what he means by that is inChina, historically, it was very
beautiful to bind the woman'sfeet, which aesthetically was
beautiful but had very poorfunction, and so his whole idea
is that big, functional feet arebeautiful too, and so to create
(54:51):
landscapes that are beautifuland functional, ie having a
production value in terms ofland or having a stormwater
attenuation value.
And I think that really speaksto me and potentially that's my
real upbringing, but that ideathat we need to create these
multifunctional spaces that meetboth our needs and the
(55:12):
environment's needs Beautiful.
You should look at his work.
He's amazing, he does fantasticstuff.
Amazing, that sounds awesomeawesome.
Ben Sutherland (55:20):
Well, thanks so much for coming to talk to us
today.
Charlotte and I thoroughlyenjoyed that conversation.
I'm sure these guys did as wellyeah, I've learnt a lot.
Sam Brown (55:29):
Actually, it's been really insightful, thank you
let's wrap it up there sweet asalways.
Gerard Dombroski (55:39):
Thanks to Jacob for the sound, connor for
the drawings and Ben for theproducing.
I just cut out all my own stuffand also if you have any
questions or topic ideas, wewould love to hear from you, so
(55:59):
feel free to message on theInstagram or our email, which is
info at designprinciples.
Sam Brown (56:06):
Info at designprinciplespodcom.
And just a quick shout out andthank you to the NZIA who have
been supporting us over theselast couple of weeks.
It's nice to have the I guessthe National Architects Club,
for want of a better termadvocating for us and hopefully
(56:27):
they continue to do so.
And yeah, once again, thank youvery much, charlotte, awesome,
thank you.
I'm out.
Welcome back to the Design Principles podcast.
I'm Ben from Bear Architecturehere today with Sam from REIT
Architects and Gerard fromGerard Dombrowski Workshop, and
today on the show we have a veryspecial guest, Charlotte Warren
, friend of the pod.
So welcome, Char.
(00:33):
So Charlotte is a landscapearchitect from Wellington,
currently working at StudioPacific Architecture, and we
thought we'd just bring her onthe show to have a chat about
landscape and how it couldintegrate a little bit better
with our current architecturepractices.
Charlotte, why don't you giveus a bit of an introduction and
(00:58):
a rundown on who you are andwhat you're about?
How you got into landscapearchitecture?
Charlotte Warren (01:05):
Okay, hi, my name's Charlotte, to start off
with, I'm a landscape architect,and just a quick rundown of
exactly what landscapearchitecture is it is the design
of outdoor environments, fromthe smallest courtyard or back
garden through to citywidemaster plans.
It involves the complexintegration of cultural, social,
environmental factors andrelies on collaboration with a
(01:28):
whole raft of people, butspecifically mana, whenua,
architects, engineeringprofessions, ecologists and
planners.
How I sort of found myself inthis space?
I don't think I can kind ofcome to work and sort of think
about land in such a capacitywithout my kind of upbringing as
a rural kid.
So I I grew up in the Wairarapa, on a farm, and I think that
(01:50):
has a huge bearing on how I cameto be a landscape architect.
I fundamentally have alwaysloved being outside and I've
managed to find a professionthat if I'm not outside, I'm
imagining outdoor spaces always.
So it's pretty critical and,yeah, I guess that's something
that you and I then have incommon, that kind of growing up
(02:11):
on the land and perpetually kindof thinking about it a lot.
Ben Sutherland (02:15):
Definitely.
I think about it all the time,mainly around how I can use that
land to ride my dirt bike or,you know, your paddock car or
get up to travel, and how muchmore freedom you have growing up
on a farm.
True.
Charlotte Warren (02:34):
I'm pretty terrible with machinery, so
motorbikes were never my forte.
Sam Brown (02:38):
Awesome.
Charlotte Warren (02:38):
Yeah, maybe potentially why I've come to be
an urban dweller now is becauseme and vehicles don't really mix
.
But no, but yeah.
And so just quickly on kind ofmy background to date, I studied
down at Lincoln following theChristchurch earthquakes, which
was a very incredible time tomove to a new city as a
(03:02):
fresh-faced 18-year-old and meetpeople and study with people
and lecturers who are all kindof reeling from the loss of
their city and that really mademe understand the connection
that people have to place intotheir city.
And that's kind of stuck withme and is kind of a cornerstone
of my practice is reallythinking about that connection
(03:25):
to place and fostering that.
And I'm very fortunate to havestudied at that time in that
city where the course was justlargely tailored around.
You know, landscape is memorialand how does the city rebuild
it was, it was really formativeyeah, that's crazy.
Ben Sutherland (03:39):
How so did you?
Were you enrolled in to studydown there prior to the
earthquakes?
At some point?
Did you have kind of like Iguess, like second guess your
commitment to going and studyingdown there?
Charlotte Warren (03:57):
Yeah, well, you can either sort of study in
one of the three cities here inNew Zealand, either For me
growing up in the wider Gulf ofWellington, was much too close
and Auckland is a as a farm kid,and so Christchurch felt like a
good, a good balance.
But yeah, so the the secondearthquake happened in September
and I had to make that decisionof do I still go?
(04:21):
And I I decided to go and Idon't regret it for a minute.
It was, yeah, it was afantastic university scene in
lots of ways.
You know, there was no town, soit was very kind of a lot of
flat parties and a lot of funand a lot of kind of
longstanding friendships wereformed through that time.
So, and then from a studyingpoint of view, you know, all the
(04:44):
course was tailored aroundearthquake recovery, which was
which was an amazing pivot.
But yeah, from there I've sinceworked in auckland, london and
now wellington, so I've movedaround a bit and I think that's
kind of given me a goodperspective of different ways in
which people approach practiceand obviously different density.
(05:06):
And yeah, particularly seeingwhat's happening over in the UK
really makes you think aboutwhat we should be doing here in
little New Zealand.
Sam Brown (05:16):
This might be jumping in a bit quick, charlotte, but
it'd be really interesting toknow how much of that study, or
that time studying Christchurchpost-earthquake, is now
reflected in your work aroundmaybe resilience or other sort
of disaster recovery.
Charlotte Warren (05:33):
Yeah, I mean I've not been kind of lucky or
lucky is a sort of difficultword but I mean, obviously,
what's happening in New Zealandright now.
We see you know the effects ofclimate change and landscapes
needing to respond to that, andand you know how you kind of
create safe spaces and spacesthat deal with the kind of
(05:54):
forces of nature be it massiveflood events or or earthquakes
is obviously a little bitdifficult to plan for.
But but the events up in inauckland, the, the flooding over
the anniversary, uh yeah, andand the work that landscape
architects have done to, um,kind of future-proof some of
those more dense urbanenvironments, is is pretty
(06:15):
amazing and, you know, continuesto be critical as we, as we
increase the density of ourcities nice.
Ben Sutherland (06:22):
Yeah, that whole concept of densification I
guess is is pretty hectic and Ican imagine it would have been
like a complete contrast.
Your work in England as well,as opposed to little old
Wellington.
What were some of the earnings,I guess, from working over
(06:43):
there or working abroad andtravelling that you brought back
to Wellington?
Charlotte Warren (06:48):
Well, I think the thing about London as a city
is it's a masterclass in thatmedium density scale.
There's a lot of fantasticterrace housing, there's a lot
of great apartments, be it kindof you know four story up to
what I think less, less a fan ofis the 30 story stuff.
But it's a city that kind ofknows you know, it knows how to
(07:13):
do density and it plans for it.
It's got great park provisionslike public transport, good
streets and that that isentirely by design, that is good
planning policy and that's acity valuing civic space.
And so I guess when you kind ofthink about how they live over
(07:34):
there and trying to bring thatback to New Zealand, it's
difficult.
I'm not advocating for a sortof copy-paste scenario, but
there are really good learningsabout how we as a society can
sort of start to feel morecomfortable living at higher
density.
Gerard Dombroski (07:50):
Are there any key sort of decisions that
they've made that you sort oflook at as being ones that
really bring it together?
Charlotte Warren (07:56):
Yeah.
Gerard Dombroski (07:57):
How is the city so liveable?
And specifically by design, Iguess.
Charlotte Warren (08:02):
From a landscape perspective.
You know a huge part of my rolewas the Greater London
Authority had this place-basedcalculator which essentially you
plugged in how many units thedevelopment was going to have,
you know, be it three-bedroom,four-bedroom, whether that was
open market or whether it wassocial housing, and that gave,
(08:23):
based based off, you know,previous developments like an
anticipated number of childrenwho would be living on that site
and at what age, and that gaveyou an amount, an area of play
space, that you should beaccounting for in your
development that's sointeresting, that collection or
that.
Ben Sutherland (08:41):
I guess they've got a lot of data to draw from,
but I can imagine that would besuch a powerful design tool to
work with.
We should definitely need to upour game in that realm, that's
for sure.
Gerard Dombroski (08:54):
Yeah so how does that sort of play out on
each sort of project scale, likeif you've got subdividing a
section or something in NewZealand and you're putting eight
units on, would you then haveto be required to have a little
bit of shared public play space?
How does that sort of work?
Charlotte Warren (09:13):
Yeah, I mean eight units is probably of a
slightly smaller scale than whenthis calculator would come into
play, but when you're sort oflooking at sort of 30 units,
that would be when and honestlyI can't quite recall the
threshold.
But I guess it's just somethingphilosophically for us to kind
of think about.
If you were to prioritize, youknow, just the consideration of
(09:37):
children living in these urbanenvironments, I don't feel like
here in New Zealand we quiteallow for that, feel like here
in New Zealand we we quite allowfor that.
I think the psychology is verymuch that you live in medium
density either prior to havingchildren or when children have
left home, and then you knowthat that period in the middle
you very much need your backyardyeah, I guess, like there's,
there's a discussion there of um, like I guess modernism was an
(10:01):
example of architects trying towork with landscape in a very
utopian sort of way.
Gerard Dombroski (10:07):
Let's make the buildings tall and give
everyone a shitload of greenspace and then a lot of those
turn to shit.
I guess we're urbanly probablynot super safe places for people
to hang out in yeah like astructured response to that
style, like Robin Hood Gardens.
Whilst beautiful architecturemaybe less favourable public
(10:32):
space.
Charlotte Warren (10:33):
Yeah, I think those kind of you know, the
tower and the park concepts ofurbanism were quite often
inherently and quite badlysituated sites and what was
actually offered on the groundwas often, you know, fairly
minimal.
You essentially had a hugetower and not much else, and
then, I'd argue, not muchconnection to that space.
Ben Sutherland (10:55):
Yeah, really not much to work with.
Charlotte Warren (10:58):
I'd say it was a failure of the architect to
engage a landscape architect inmodernism or potentially, lead
to its demise.
Sam Brown (11:07):
That's a good question, then, charlotte.
I mean so often and you askedthis before we started on the
recording like how many of ushave actually worked with a
landscape architect before?
I personally haven't, andGerard said that he has, but,
you know, not in any sort ofcontinuous or meaningful way.
I mean, it sounds like weshould be engaging with
(11:30):
landscape architects from youknow the initial stages of a
project.
I mean, there's a chance, Iguess, for you to advocate for
yourselves here, but do you wantto just sort of outline why the
importance of landscapearchitects and integrating a
building into the sort ofsociety well, the built
environment rather than it justbeing like an isolated structure
?
Charlotte Warren (11:51):
yeah, sure, I think as landscape architects we
are trained to think aboutspace in a systems way, be it
ecological systems or socialsystems, connectivity, ways of
living, those sorts of things,those, those concepts of how
land is is is used, are quitefundamental to the way in which
(12:13):
we think about design.
And so even just to think aboutit on a residential scale, in
the kind of conversations thatyou know you have with your
clients about what clients,about what type of meals they
have as a family Are they peoplewho are big entertainers, or is
mealtime not a particularlysignificant thing and that's how
you start to kind of shape thedesign of the kitchen there.
(12:36):
It's the same thinking of howyou ultimately want to behave on
your land.
Is that?
Do you want to be creating ascenario where you know the idea
of you know Tui's visiting youat home and thinking through
okay, well, I want to be sittingin my back garden and I want to
be able to hear the sound ofthe Tui, which is, I think, the
(12:58):
ultimate dream for any NewZealander who's fortunate enough
to have a back garden.
But you sort of start to thinkabout those concepts and build
out a design based on that, interms of species, in terms of
spaces be it for social or, morecontemplative, obviously,
production, all those sorts ofthings.
(13:18):
I think the integration with thesite and with the broader
context is really critical.
But it's that whole piece,isn't it?
It's designing spaces in thesame way that architects do to
live the life you ultimatelywant to live, and creating that
through the lands.
The thing that I think our realstrength as landscape
architects and, amongst otherthings, is the levels piece.
(13:42):
I think, as landscapearchitects, compared to
architects, levels is somethingwe really understand and and
really try and work with andutilize.
I mean, my life for the pastyear has been ramps and stairs
and integration with levels andall sorts of things, so I've
been busy with the detaileddesign project, but I think that
that is, yeah, that's our realstrength is that is that systems
(14:02):
thinking and and thatintegration integration.
Sam Brown (14:06):
You put that really beautifully and it's interesting
.
I'm sitting here in lake hawaialooking out my window and the
landscape surrounding thistownship is it's breathtaking,
it's absolutely stunning.
But the township itself,particularly the new development
areas that I'm looking at athere, is stark and almost
apocalyptic, and it's so clearthat landscape's not been taken
(14:29):
into account on any site reallywhatsoever, and it's a shame
really, and I mean I'm reallycoming at this from a
residential perspective, butthere's so much scope for better
engagement with the environmentaround and it seems like it's
almost a necessity thatlandscape architects are engaged
to sort of help better these,particularly these suburban
(14:50):
developments.
Ben Sutherland (14:52):
Yeah, this is something I kind of find
interesting.
Throughout history, when youpurchase a property and you
intend to build a typicalresidential house, that really
only involves the design andconstruction of the actual
building itself.
Never includes a landscapedesigner of any description, or
(15:12):
very rarely.
Which is quite interesting inits own right, though, because
basically what that means is youhave your bit of land and your
house is kind of plonked on it,and then, over the year or two,
it's up to the owners or theoccupants to craft that
(15:34):
landscape or sculpture thatlandscape in a way that they
want to, I guess.
So there's still somethingquite nice about that.
I guess it's quite a nicethought.
However, as our cities canidentify, even in places like
how we are, especially with likethe medium density realm, you
actually have to design thelandscaping within that project,
(15:59):
so it's meant to be like alittle mini replica, I guess
they say, of what we, what weuse a quarter acre style living
but the the developers kind ofalready contracted a landscape
architect and tried to I don'tknow if it's just to dress up
the, the building, or if it'swell, I guess it is a necessity
(16:22):
for resource consent, but it'sjust interesting that now we are
required to do some sort ofdesign, although it's terrible
compared to standaloneresidential, where you don't
have that requirement at all andit kind of just grows naturally
.
What are your thoughts on thatkind of natural manner of
(16:44):
landscaping versus the moreplanned landscaping shelf?
Charlotte Warren (16:48):
Yeah, well, I think I guess it depends on the
person, doesn't it?
Or if you take just a purelystandard 7,500 square metre
section, the 200 square metrehouse goes on it and then
there's essentially 300 squaremetres left.
So the way of thinking of it isit's like half of the site has
been considered in some ways,and what do you do with the rest
(17:11):
?
And yeah, I think that in somany ways, the kind of
integration with architects andlandscape architects, it's such
a happy marriage.
You know, we, we have quiteoften very similar training, but
I did architects, residentialarchitects in particular.
There's, there's just it feelslike there is a real opportunity
to start to integrate landscapearchitecture into a residential
(17:33):
context, and there's there'slots of landscape architects
doing it and there's lots oflandscape designers doing it.
But I think it's a societyvaluing that and and what you
can ultimately get out of that,because it's kind of like a
utilization of half of whatyou've got, which, from a
farming perspective, is thiswould be a poor utilization of
land in some ways but, anyway,but that's kind of one thing.
(17:55):
You know you can get so much outof outdoor environments.
I think if you sort of thinkabout your happiest memories,
it's often when you're outsideand you know you can really
create that with your own spaceand as as designers we're, we're
spatial in the way we think,but actually a lot of society
isn't, and there is real valueof integrating a landscape
(18:17):
architect into your work becauseyou'll find that the outcome
isn't what you would haveimagined otherwise.
I think the question about kindof medium density environments,
that's when things, inparticular in New Zealand, are
getting really thorny.
You know you go and you walk upMount Iron and you look at
what's happening in Wanaka interms of the spread of sort of
(18:39):
those.
You know single detached homesat an alarming rate spreading
out into what is an incrediblybeautiful landscape.
You know you have to questionat what point when sites, you
know, when they get smaller andsmaller, at what point would you
be happier in an apartmentwhere you could look at the
mountains rather than look intoa Pinus radiata 1.8-metre fence
(19:01):
that's, you know, three metresfrom your living room window?
I mean it's a prettyinteresting time.
Residential design in newzealand and particularly, I
think, down south and in aroundthose lakes yeah, the shrinking,
the shrinking lot size is a bigconcern.
Sam Brown (19:18):
I mean, you look, you're talking about lot sizes
up to 200 square meters, with150 square meter house on them
in some instances, and it's allthey have, is that four.
You know that four meter circleof outdoor space and that's it
really.
Ben Sutherland (19:33):
But would you prefer that?
Environments but do.
Would you prefer that or wouldyou prefer everyone to just go
out and have their own quarteracre section like?
Would you prefer spread orwould you prefer densification?
That's the thing.
Surely densification is abetter answer.
Sam Brown (19:52):
I think so.
Gerard Dombroski (19:53):
You can't take a city from apartment block to
paddock.
Ben Sutherland (19:58):
No, I 100% agree , there's always going to be a
blurring.
Sam Brown (20:02):
There has to be a blurring, the mountain has to
crumble right.
So there's always going to bethat built-up area in the center
of whatever place it be, be ita city, be it a township, around
all the facilities andinfrastructure and the amenities
, and then it's going to alwaysfind grain out.
But I don't disagree then thatI think, and charlotte, you know
(20:23):
that the sprawl is the issue.
The issue here is that there isno peak, it's essentially a
very small mound and then a very, very, very, very, very long
sort of decline down to farmlandyeah.
Gerard Dombroski (20:37):
I think there's like a bit of an error
in making well, a making housesthat's slightly smaller than
your section, which is prettyhorrible.
We all love a pine fence, but Ithink as well for, like the age
of the city, like you get thoseolder suburbs that have trees
and like a mix of housing,whereas a lot of these suburbs
(21:00):
are never going to have a mix,they're all just going to be
spec city like.
At least with the older plotlayouts they were quite deep.
It actually allows for thatsubdivision over time.
So maybe in those outer zonesyou have larger section sizes
that one day, if there's anothermicro city or another transport
(21:24):
node out there that requiresdensification, then it's less
jarring of a bowling the wholecity.
I think there's discussionaround tying landscape
architects more into thearchitecture process is pretty
epic and it's definitelysomething I've started to notice
within my practice.
(21:45):
Yeah, just because theconnection to earth with your
building is so integral to theoutcome of your architecture.
Quite often it gets taken outbecause it's cost-cutting or
value engineering.
The client gets you into thejob and they've got no money,
which is the realities of itsometimes.
Ben Sutherland (22:03):
But to have a plan in place is pretty
important, and a good example ofthat is the one you're working
on for your mum at the moment,isn't it, where you've basically
built the house around acourtyard style?
I mean, courtyard architectureis definitely a fad at the
moment the house is.
Gerard Dombroski (22:23):
we've called the house the secret garden
house just because mum talkedabout the secret garden story as
a kid, so we said this kind ofromantic notion of a fence and
then through the fence is thismagical pine fence so you don't
(22:44):
see it from the outside.
It looks like a building fromthe outside when you come inside
.
Ben Sutherland (22:49):
Secret garden.
Gerard Dombroski (22:51):
Hopefully a magical courtyard which we
started planting fairly early on.
Sam Brown (22:56):
Yeah, that's what I was.
Gerard Dombroski (22:58):
By the time you get to the end of the job.
Sam Brown (23:00):
That's what I was going to say.
I mean, you've taken a reallyinteresting and pragmatic
approach in that you've sort ofsemi-finished the building and
now planting to let it build up.
So at the completion it's likewell established.
I mean, charlotte, how often doyou get that opportunity to
integrate landscape into thearchitecture during the
construction process, or is itso often not necessarily an
(23:21):
afterthought but certainly apost sort of?
Building construction approachor thought uh I mean in.
Charlotte Warren (23:29):
In my case, when I'm working on larger civic
realm projects.
It's very much at the forefront.
It's not, it's not kind ofconsidered this, this phase of
work that happens in afterarchitecture.
It's very much an integratedthing.
But I I mean it depends.
I mean in the residentialcontext.
(23:50):
What happens a lot these daysis that in a streetscape and
open space context, the councilrequires the developer to build
those elements first so that theplants are established at the
point that people move in.
So that is quite often whathappens and but I mean, I guess
(24:13):
it entirely depends on theclient and what they prioritize.
If architecture is kind of and Ithink maybe that's, you know,
that's somewhere I thinksomething that architects could
potentially look to develop inthat residential context is is
thinking of the two in tandemand bringing an landscape
architect in at that conceptstage.
And that's not to say thatthey'd be engaged to other
projects certainly not but thatthey can start to.
(24:36):
You can work together andinfluence the outcome to create
something.
That's richer than thinking ofthe two as two independent
pieces, because it is sointerlinked that indoor and
outdoor space.
If you get that right, both atany scale, then the project is
so much better for it.
Ben Sutherland (24:56):
Just out of curiosity, do you see much value
engineering in landscapearchitecture, kind of like for
general architecture or a houseor something?
You may design something, butthen over time it gets refined
down to its essence, so to speak.
Is that like a similar thing inlandscape.
Charlotte Warren (25:18):
Yes, landscape architecture certainly is
immune to value engineering,unfortunately.
Yeah, it's an ongoing, it is.
It is as prevalent in ourindustry as it is in yours.
Obviously, that's you know, youstart, you know, if you're
thinking just that, that youknow same things it's finish of.
(25:39):
You know all surfaces, allthose sorts of things, quality
of of of fixed furniture, plants, both species, selection and
grade, the size of plants, depthof topsoil, you know, nothing
is immune.
It's all considered in thatvalue engineering exercise.
Ben Sutherland (25:58):
Just interesting because it exists.
It certainly exists.
I guess this is debatable, butmore in the public realm and
potentially more in the publicrealm than I guess that is
debatable, but more in thepublic realm, potentially more
in the public realm, then Iguess that's not true.
Architecture is in the samecontext, is extremely public as
well, but I guess it creates thein-between spaces which is used
(26:19):
a lot every day.
So I wouldn't have thoughtthey'd be skimping on resilience
and material quality and thatsort of thing.
But yeah, it's interesting.
Charlotte Warren (26:33):
Yeah, well, I mean, it's the difference of
material.
It might be moving from anatural stone finish to an
exposed aggregate finish, orreducing the amount of hardscape
and increasing the amount ofsoftscape, which in and of
itself is, you know, that'ssomething that landscape
architects are always trying toget that balance just right,
providing enough hardscape, youknow, paving, paved areas,
(26:56):
sealed areas to allow whateversocial functions you need in
terms of both movement anddwelling, but then having as
much softscape as you possiblycan to, you know, obviously,
from an environmental point ofview, you know, with planting
and regeneration and trying toimprove the ecological quality
of that area, and then alsomitigation of stormwater.
(27:18):
You know that's a, that's ahuge piece of of landscape
architecture and, you know, inthe coming years and incoming
projects, even now you're seeingparticularly, or anywhere
really, the necessity forstormwater to be considered in
the design.
Sam Brown (27:35):
I'd be really interested, charlotte, to sort
of feed it down a little bitdeeper.
You just touched on it a littlebit, I guess, in terms of your
balance between softscape andhardscape, but I'd be really
interested to get a little bitmore of an insight into sort of
your design process and how youcome up with those judgment
calls and material selectionsand things like that.
Charlotte Warren (27:54):
Yeah, well, I'm just trying to think of a
good example to talk through it.
But essentially, yeah, it'salways difficult because
obviously through the wintermonths, months having too much
softscape, ie too much too muchlawn or or planting, can kind of
if it's if it's a civic realmproject in particular kind of
(28:15):
limit the usability of thatspace through through the winter
months.
So that kind of encourages morehardscape but then conversely,
that has a higher carbonfootprint in terms of um, you
know the, the buildup and allthose sorts of things, and then
also limits usability in thesummer months.
So it's a hard one to kind ofit's very site specific and you
(28:39):
know the levels conversationalways works into it if you're
working with like a flat site ora hilly site, if you're working
with like a flat site, or ahilly site, but essentially I'm
always advocating for as muchshaftscape as we possibly can,
just from trying to lower thecarbon footprint as much as
possible.
And yeah, just I thinkultimately hardscape is the
(29:01):
default material and often itdoesn't need to be.
I think, particularly when youhead over to Europe, even spaces
which are much more used herein New Zealand material, and
often it doesn't need to be.
I think, particularly when youhead over to europe, even spaces
which are much more used herein new zealand people are very
content with gravel and hogging,whereas here we, you know we
love exposed aggregates.
Sam Brown (29:14):
So default surface always and how often are you
sort of taking into existingsite conditions and or like the
history of the site when you'reconsidering those areas as well?
Charlotte Warren (29:28):
Yeah, always, always, it's very critical and
you know, civic realm projects,the engagement, the sort of
co-design process with ManaWhenua is critically important
and you know that's something aslandscape architects we've
really built our capacity in,you know, um, in recent years in
particular.
And so when you, when youattend the institute's awards
(29:52):
evening, it's mana whenua whoare up there taking those awards
and and rightly so, they're,they're integral to the design
process and they really shapeand enrich a project and, um,
yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it'sa very important piece of work.
But then obviously there's, youknow, there's other histories
to consider there, in terms ofEuropean history as well.
So that is a layer.
(30:13):
But yeah, that site assessmentfrom that cultural lens is
really significant.
And then obviously theecological lens as well.
You know what ecology was thereand trying your utmost to try
and recreate that sort ofproviding habitat for birds.
You know what ecology was thereand trying your utmost to try
and recreate that sort ofproviding habitat for birds.
You know, choosing your plantselection.
If you get that right, you knowyou've got your tui and your
back garden and that's sospecial, so it's critical.
Sam Brown (30:38):
It's interesting.
You know you've seen those sortof examples of reclaimed cities
where the landscape sort of youknow, the city's being left
derelict for whatever reason beit post-nuclear fallout or
something along those lines andyou know nature's sort of
reclaimed the city and it's beenleft to grow organically.
It must be quite hard to strikethat balance between
(31:01):
fabricating spaces and lettingit grow organically.
It would be interesting to getyour take on how you sort of
balance that.
Charlotte Warren (31:10):
Yeah, in sort of urban environments, that's a
particular struggle becauseyou're also trying to balance,
you know, safety concerns andfacilitating passive
surveillance after dark andpreserving sight lines through
space.
So they're often governed.
You know, creating a lowerstory which is kind of below
(31:33):
1,200 and then having clear stemtrees which is kind of, you
know, the canopy starts at twometres high to create safe
outdoor space.
And I mean that's a criticalpart of landscape design and a
huge piece of my work is,particularly as a female
landscape architect is, you knowthe equality in space after
dark really governs designdecisions.
(31:53):
So it's a really big battlethat is getting that right.
But ultimately there's a lotyou can do in regenerative
planting, you know, in terms ofimproving ecological value and
bringing species back.
You know, in terms of improvingecological value and bringing
species back, we, we know a lotabout what birds, how much um
area birds need in order to bein, you know, to to habitat in
(32:13):
that zone, and we can workpretty hard and go a long way to
kind of creating those spacesfor them it's amazing.
Sam Brown (32:21):
I've never really thought about that like
two-tiered planting and keepingthose clear lines of sight.
I mean I guess it's a realmI've not worked in before and
yeah, it's just fascinating tohear that you know to that level
of detail, you know even theplanting and separation and
openness is considered at school.
Ben Sutherland (32:40):
Yeah, I've always thought basically exactly
what you're talking about.
I'm not sure where you'regetting this information from
about the plants and the speciesand the bird life and that sort
of thing, but I've alwaysthought it would be awesome to
have like a map of your regionthat shows what plants work best
(33:01):
, growing in what areas and whatpercentage currently exists
there and you know, like I guesslike a bit more data around
what could be planted to improvethe environment within that
region and basically what you'retalking about with bringing
bird life back and especiallylike bees and that sort of thing
.
So it's really cool to hear youtalk about that sort of thing
(33:23):
and I'd love to know whereyou're getting that information
from, because I've tried to lookbefore.
That's.
Yeah, it must be pretty deep inthere.
Charlotte Warren (33:36):
No, yeah, Greater Wellington Regional
Council has a 12-carat zoneswithin the kind of wider
Wellington region, whichencompasses the wider upper as
well, and the kind of remnantplants that would have been
there and that are now there andgives you an incredible list of
(33:56):
really good plants to use thatare kind of local to to that
area.
But yeah to you to your pointabout that pseudo pacific
actually prior to my timeproduced the green work, green
network plan for wellington citycouncil and that sort of talks
about.
You know how big of roleactually the private space has
(34:17):
to play in people planting thecorrect things in their back
garden and what that can do forincreasing both canopy coverage
and bird life in our cities.
So there is a lot we can dowithin the residential design
space to increase both theecological value of our cities
and the bird life in our cities.
Sam Brown (34:38):
I'll put a link to that in our show notes.
Sorry, just quickly.
Yeah, I'll put a link to thatin our show notes because,
you're right, charlotte, it's apretty incredible little
document.
Ben Sutherland (34:46):
It's a powerful tool.
Sam Brown (34:47):
Lots of people don't know where to find it.
Sorry, Gerard, go for it, mate.
Gerard Dombroski (34:52):
The species chat.
I find quite a key one.
Chat, I find quite a key one.
I kind of wish all thearchitecture kids at uni had to
do at least one landscape paperjust to kind of give like a
little bit of base understanding.
I think it would go a long wayto helping all this.
But around the the speciesstuff, sometimes I get a little
(35:16):
frustrated that somedevelopments only do native
plants or something.
So I'm a big blossom fan, lovea blossom.
So in mum's house we've gotabsolutely chaos.
Everything Lots of colour, lotsof things going on, as well as
(35:36):
natives.
We've got cool fire.
Where we've got we've got amini rata or something.
But like around around specieschat, do you want to give us a
little rundown on what's what'syour go-to and what are some
bangers that we can pull out for?
Ben Sutherland (35:48):
our projects and don't say egg of panthers do
not say anything
Charlotte Warren (35:57):
I.
I heard your um you commentabout agapanthus.
They're actually.
Agapanthus are officially aweed in this country.
Sam Brown (36:04):
They're really the problem.
What about gorse?
Charlotte Warren (36:06):
Yeah, yeah, they're one of those plants that
was kind of bought in and wasvery popular and now they are.
Yeah, they're a big problem,but their their root system
makes them very cumbersome toget rid of.
So that, yeah they're, they'reon my hip list.
I'm not an agar panther fan,even when they're in full bloom.
(36:30):
I don't.
I don't understand their sortof respect value.
Sam Brown (36:35):
Um, I've found a partner in crime.
Team anti agar panthers I standin solidarity.
Charlotte Warren (36:41):
But yes to your, to your point, gerard,
that's, yeah, the, thegrizzolinia literalis, which we
sort of colloquially known asthe developer's hedge, which has
this very hardy it's actuallynative green, sort of quite waxy
, quite bright green waxy leaf.
That's also on my hit list.
It's called the developer'shedge because it's just been
(37:01):
completely overused.
It's hardy and it growseverywhere.
Sam Brown (37:06):
So that's, that's definitely on my hit list I was
going to plant one of thosetomorrow, should I not?
Charlotte Warren (37:16):
actually down down south there's a grizzly
linear canterbury which has asmaller leaf, that's less waxy
and it's actually really I quitelike that.
I just specifically have beefwith the grizzly linear
littoralis.
Sam Brown (37:29):
I can't tell you which one it is.
Charlotte Warren (37:32):
And then we have spheridated dog plant.
Oh really.
Sam Brown (37:34):
Okay, no sure.
Charlotte Warren (37:35):
But yeah, I think, yeah, the thing about our
native species is they'veevolved with the ecology that
we've got, so obviously with nomammals.
Here in new zealand we havewhite things to attract, which
was white things to attractbirds, white flowers to attract
birds and blue things to attractlizards or insects.
(37:56):
So that's sort of why we havequite we don't have particularly
.
You know, we have quite a mutedcolour palette in terms of our
flowers.
But I'm not opposed to the useof exotics, but I think that the
value that you have in terms ofimproving the ecological value,
I think planting should bepredominantly native, but the
kind of accents of exotics isdefinitely.
(38:17):
I'm not opposed to a cherryeither.
I quite like a cherry.
Gerard Dombroski (38:21):
A gingko.
I didn't know that colour thing.
Sam Brown (38:24):
Yeah, that's fascinating, is it?
Ben Sutherland (38:26):
yellow for bees as well, or did I just make that
up?
Charlotte Warren (38:31):
Blue is a taito.
That's how it's pronounced.
If that's wrong, ben, we'regoing to have to cut that out.
I think that's how it'spronounced.
If that's wrong, ben, we'regoing to have to cut it out.
But yeah, what are some plantsthat I really like at the moment
?
Euphorbia that's probably myfavourite.
You see that quite a lot.
It's a coastal plant and it'sjust very wavy.
I like the plants.
(38:51):
I mean maybe it's part of beinga Wellingtonian that really
move in the wind.
So any grasses, you know, we'reso lucky in New Zealand We've
got such beautiful kerricks.
There's a conica, I have a real.
I tend to just know the sort ofbotanical name, but I put
absolutely no energy in my lifeto the correct pronunciation.
(39:13):
So if any landscape architectslisten to this, they're just
kidding their hands at how shepronounces things, because it's
truly it's not a focus of mine,but it should be.
I write them, I didn't say them.
What are some plant?
The plants that I really like?
Auckland, actually, I, I mustconfess, because they're in a
subtropical band.
They're just a little bitfurther north.
They have access to a fewbeautiful trees that we don't
(39:36):
quite have down here.
And then South Island again, Imean that's quite interesting.
The South Island because, inparticular, where you are, sam,
in that they have, you know thatquite that real adoption of the
deciduous trees which must makebeing down at this time of year
quite beautiful.
It's something that's importantbut it is actually really it's
(39:57):
quite nice.
Driving through Arrowtown today.
Sam Brown (40:01):
Yeah, they're just turning and driving through
Arrowtown today it's sort ofit's hitting that autumn glow.
It is pretty stunning.
Unfortunately, in Hawi thereare only pines, so yeah.
All wild, yeah, wild and pinesand a bit of eucalypt um
(40:24):
surprisingly I can see out mywindow, but it's all right.
Gerard Dombroski (40:26):
I just like deciduous trees.
I quite like.
Using them in architectureprojects is like you can have
them near a building but thenand use them for their inherent
qualities when they lose theirleaves or whatever summer shade
and winter light.
So that's a pretty epictemperature moderation tool,
which is kind of why we've gotthem in the courtyard at Mum's
(40:49):
house.
We're trying to create kind oflike a semi-cool zone so that
that kind of creates a chimneyeffect and then the other sides
are hot, so trying to pull airthrough.
So I think there's such a hugetoolkit there that I wish I knew
more about that you can reallyuse to ground and enrich your
(41:12):
architecture.
Ben Sutherland (41:12):
Yeah, absolutely , charlotte.
What is your opinion?
This is for the Gerarddombroski's of the world.
Are you pro architects doinglandscape or do you think it's
more of a stick to your lanetype of thing?
Have you?
Have you seen a lot ofarchitects?
(41:32):
Kind of so much because youknow a designer.
Designers in general seem tothink that you know they can
design anything.
So, yeah, what's your opinionon that?
Charlotte Warren (41:51):
well, I think I think you know to.
To answer honestly, I wouldn'tattempt to design a building, I
guess.
Well, I guess it's sort oflike… it's a tough question.
Gerard Dombroski (42:01):
Is that a claim?
You'll?
Ben Sutherland (42:02):
make.
No, I want this here.
Charlotte Warren (42:09):
Okay, I'll re-answer this.
I think in my experience andthen that comes with working in
a big studio and working on bigprojects is the more exposure
you have to people who arespecialists in their field be it
wayfinding specialists, be itan ecologist, be it an architect
(42:31):
the richer the design isbecause you, as a designer, know
your lane really well andalthough you're trained and you
have a sense of things, yourskill set only goes so far and
so you know, for example, aplanting list.
We can put together a reallygood planting list, but if an
(42:54):
ecologist is to review thatplanting list, they'll be able
to pull that on by such a way,because they just have that
technical understanding andskill set that I don't have.
Well, I do have, but they'regoing to be better at it.
And I think that's the same forarchitects.
These architects can kind ofeke into the world of landscape
(43:14):
architects and some architectsare fantastic landscape
designers, but we think aboutthings and we approach problems
in different ways, and I thinkthe richest projects are ones
that involve all of those skillsets.
Ben Sutherland (43:27):
Yeah, that must be quite hard sometimes as well
because it is a bit of a blurredline, especially in the
residential realm.
We've had a bunch of projectswhere we want to be so involved
in how the actual layout of thelandscape or the surrounding
context works, just so it isintegrated nicely with the
(43:49):
actual building itself thatpotentially it has in some areas
detracted a little bit from.
We had a landscape from anearlier timeframe.
Sam Brown (44:01):
Charlotte, it was interesting to hear you just
talk about wayfindingspecialists and ecologists.
Are they sort of would youconsider them like subsets of
landscape architecture?
Are they separate consultantsthat you'd also sort of engage
with through the landscapedesign process?
Charlotte Warren (44:19):
Yeah, those are entirely different
professions, so depending on thesize of projects, you know
wayfinding specialists is anemerging field, both within
architecture and landscapearchitects.
That is just invaluable.
You go to an airport and youknow when a wayfinding
consultant hasn't been on board,because you're running around
(44:40):
blindly trying to find your gate.
And then there's other airportsyou go to and the experience is
just completely seamless.
Or you know when you'renavigating through a city and
the sign where do I go next?
And then you just look up andthere's this sign there.
That's when a good wayfindingspecialist has been engaged and
you see that, in particular,some of the work.
That's when a good wayfindingspecialist has been engaged and
you see that, in particular,some of the work that's
happening in Auckland, incentral Auckland right now,
(45:01):
that's the work of really goodwayfinding specialists.
Sam Brown (45:04):
Isn't it?
Charlotte Warren (45:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a really cool field,but they tend to only work on,
obviously, wayfinding, by nature, is large in size, so that's
when you're working on much,much broader projects.
I mean, it's definitely a skillthat landscape architects have,
but in some cases it'swayfinding specialists.
Quite often there's a strongintegration with graphic design,
(45:28):
so they'll also design thesignage and things, and so quite
often it's a separate piece.
Sometimes it's folded into thescope of a landscape architect,
but other times it's a separateconsultant.
Gerard Dombroski (45:40):
To go back a little bit to landscape, do you
think landscape architects havemuch of like an aesthetic
language?
The only one I can think of isPeter Rudolph, who's, I think,
got a very strong visuallanguage.
Charlotte Warren (45:55):
I guess it's sort of a difficult question.
I think there's definitely, Imean, similar to architecture in
that there are defined styles,but, and you know, an architect
who is designing a home inAuckland wouldn't design the
same home that they werebuilding in Queenstown, for
example.
So it's you know that theremight be some linking elements
(46:16):
or linking styles, but thatsite-specific element is quite
different.
Gerard Dombroski (46:20):
That would be sweet.
Charlotte Warren (46:22):
What was it sorry?
Gerard Dombroski (46:24):
I'll just throw some schist on it.
Yeah, yeah.
Charlotte Warren (46:30):
Yeah, but I think with landscape
architecture potentially more sothan architecture you're
working at typically a muchlarger scale.
So the site and the levels ofthe site, what it's connecting
to you know the demands on itmeans that architecture or sort
of a design style across onepractice is potentially harder
(46:53):
to find.
Sam Brown (46:56):
Would you say that you have a, a design, not
necessarily style, but like adesign flair or something that
you look to integrate in all thework that you do?
Be it, I don't really know,like a style of seating or style
of ramping or planting, or theway you lay something out like
is there something that youcould draw?
(47:17):
Our last discussion was aboutsort of the lineage of our
design and creating likechronology through, uh, design
development.
Would you say that you'vecreated that through your
landscape design?
Charlotte Warren (47:28):
yeah, I think that's potentially less of a
focus for for my work.
I think what ultimately drivesmy work is responding to social
or environmental issues and thatkind of informs things,
potentially more so than aspecific design language.
I think I'm quite happy for theaesthetic in some ways to be
(47:51):
quite site specific.
I think landscape architecture,although it is inherently
beautiful, I think aesthetic ispotentially less of a focus than
it is inherently beautiful.
I think aesthetic ispotentially less of a focus than
it is in architecture.
I think what kind of you know,functionality and meaning and
and those responding to kind ofsocial, cultural, environmental
stuff governs, governs theoutcome more so than an
(48:15):
aesthetic drive.
I I don't know if that'sprobably safe, but there would
probably be landscape architectswho'd be screaming at this and
very much disagree with me, butI sort of think of landscape
architecture in that way.
It's more of an integration ofthose other elements than
aesthetics.
Gerard Dombroski (48:32):
It's such a big field, being 99% of the
earth.
Charlotte Warren (48:40):
That's not to say it's all designed by
landscape architects, thoughwe're not holding the pen
everywhere.
Sam Brown (48:46):
I heard a claim the other day that the Amazon is
like 70% designed becausethey've found like cultivations
of species of plants that arelike en masse, that don't make
sense naturally, and so thatwere the massive cities, the
mine, yeah also apparently thepopulation of the amazon's
(49:10):
decreased by something like 30or 40.
Maybe it's even more than thanthat.
Charlotte Warren (49:15):
But sorry, that's a bit of a digression,
but I guess what I'm leaning tois maybe the earth is all
designed but it's not gettinginto theology.
Gerard Dombroski (49:29):
I think the cultures that were in the Amazon
were real into soil prep.
They could get crazy things togrow there in epic ways when I
was doing a large commercialproject.
Just the soil prep wasn'treally considered in the
workflow that well anddefinitely something I'd spend a
(49:49):
lot more attention on next,next time, because partially
because, uh, the planting allgot value engineered out and I
couldn't live with that so Idecided to plant it all myself.
Ben Sutherland (50:00):
And how many did you?
Gerard Dombroski (50:01):
plant.
Oh, it was thousands.
It was like four or five uteloads on my ute.
They're all fairly smallbecause the budget dropped, so
the plant size has dropped.
Charlotte Warren (50:19):
Sorry, sam, just to circle back to your
point before about designlandscapes.
I mean that was certainly thecase here in Wellington.
You know there were hugecultivated sites that the tribes
, the various iwi, were usinghere prior to colonisation were
using.
Here prior to colonisationthere was massive cultivation
(50:44):
fields, sort of you know.
Further south of where Te Arau,where the CBD is, you know
there was rich wetlands.
It was all kind of cultivatedto sustain life here in the city
.
A similar example down inChristchurch where cabbage trees
were used across the plains asa navigation field.
So there were, you know, iwisacross New Zealand had very much
(51:07):
shaped spaces to, you know, fortheir sustenance.
So we have that history here inNew Zealand and you know that's
a huge part of landscapearchitecture is trying to shed
light on that and trying to gosome way to making that known to
the public.
(51:27):
Because, yeah, it's definitely.
You know we have that historyin New Zealand.
Sam Brown (51:32):
Yeah, that's really beautiful.
That way of finding things isreally cool.
I think that's fascinating.
That is the epitome of a designlandscape really interesting to
see, you know, to see thatmaintained somehow on a larger
scale, you know, outside of sortof urban projects, and whether
that could be integrated intosort of rural environments a
little bit more.
Gerard Dombroski (51:52):
But yeah, that's, the country's gone too
far.
Charlotte Warren (51:55):
Yeah, exactly the um but the topsoil thing to
ride is also really interesting.
And that you know with yeah,that's good, get to the country,
it's gone too far, yeah,exactly.
But the topsoil thing to rideis also really interesting in
that, you know, with large-scalegreenfield development here
they sort of just rip the top300 mil of topsoil off, scrape
it all back and then Start again.
Yeah, it's a real problem andit's such a.
(52:16):
You know those.
You know I'm not an architect,but those you know, those
concrete slabs that you know webuild houses on these days.
It's not how we used to, youknow, yeah, but from an
environmental point of view, thekind of treatment of topsoil
here is very kind of elementaryin our understanding of it.
And there's, you know, there'swork going on and there's
(52:37):
learning going on and I'm verymuch at the first front door of
it.
But, yeah, that preservation oftopsoil and how it can be more
sympathetic in urban developmentis the next hurdle, both for
architects and landscapearchitects.
Ben Sutherland (52:51):
There's a great document called Kiss the Earth.
I think it's Kiss the Earth orKiss the Ground.
It's so interesting.
Everyone should watch itbecause it's absolutely
mind-blowing about soildegradation.
It's going to have a hugeimpact on on our crops and
potentially less so in thiscountry, significantly
(53:12):
noticeable in america, but yeah,that soil was key.
Charlotte Warren (53:23):
Takes a very long I think a centimetre of
topsoil was grown a year interms of the creation of the
humus layer and how that worksand so you really have to
protect it and you don't valueit enough.
But maybe that's kind of thefarming side of me the
preservation of topsoil and howspecial it is, and my dad spends
a lot of time trying to getthat just right, to get the
(53:43):
crops and the plants humming.
It's so critical and, yeah, inurban environments we can do
much better.
Sam Brown (53:51):
I'll link that Kiss the Ground film in the show
notes as well.
Yeah, awesome.
Gerard Dombroski (53:57):
Do you have any landscape architects that
you look to for all right, justfor froth or for reference or
for inspiration?
Charlotte Warren (54:07):
awesome job, yeah oh well, maybe, sam, to
your point of the aesthetics.
There was a landscape architectwho I was introduced to his
work at university and I stilljust think it's so amazing now.
His name's Kung Chang Yu.
He is a Chinese landscapearchitect who his whole
(54:28):
philosophy is this idea of big,beautiful feet, and so basically
what he means by that is inChina, historically, it was very
beautiful to bind the woman'sfeet, which aesthetically was
beautiful but had very poorfunction, and so his whole idea
is that big, functional feet arebeautiful too, and so to create
(54:51):
landscapes that are beautifuland functional, ie having a
production value in terms ofland or having a stormwater
attenuation value.
And I think that really speaksto me and potentially that's my
real upbringing, but that ideathat we need to create these
multifunctional spaces that meetboth our needs and the
(55:12):
environment's needs Beautiful.
You should look at his work.
He's amazing, he does fantasticstuff.
Amazing, that sounds awesomeawesome.
Ben Sutherland (55:20):
Well, thanks so much for coming to talk to us
today.
Charlotte and I thoroughlyenjoyed that conversation.
I'm sure these guys did as wellyeah, I've learnt a lot.
Sam Brown (55:29):
Actually, it's been really insightful, thank you
let's wrap it up there sweet asalways.
Gerard Dombroski (55:39):
Thanks to Jacob for the sound, connor for
the drawings and Ben for theproducing.
I just cut out all my own stuffand also if you have any
questions or topic ideas, wewould love to hear from you, so
(55:59):
feel free to message on theInstagram or our email, which is
info at designprinciples.
Sam Brown (56:06):
Info at designprinciplespodcom.
And just a quick shout out andthank you to the NZIA who have
been supporting us over theselast couple of weeks.
It's nice to have the I guessthe National Architects Club,
for want of a better termadvocating for us and hopefully
(56:27):
they continue to do so.
And yeah, once again, thank youvery much, charlotte, awesome,
thank you.
I'm out.
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