Money Talks: The Challenges of Cost in Architecture and Construction

Send us a text

How do you navigate the maze of fluctuating construction costs and avoid the pitfall of overcapitalization? Join us as we tackle these pressing questions and uncover practical solutions to manage building expenses effectively. We’ll break down the frustrations professionals face when clients are vague about budgets and how quantity surveyors can play a crucial role in stabilizing these uncertainties. You'll learn about the importance of concept designs in gauging project feasibility and the cultural factors in New Zealand that influence property investment decisions.

Ever wondered how old rubbish dumps and flood zones in Wellington affect your building costs even before you break ground? We delve into the regulatory and environmental hurdles that significantly drive up expenses, exploring how adopting international testing methods might offer some relief. We'll also discuss how these challenges impact property resale and insurance, providing a comprehensive look at how market behavior is influenced by these factors.

From a builder’s perspective, discover why sticking to familiar methods like NZS 3604 can be a double-edged sword. We delve into fixed-price contracts, the benefits of Early Contractor Engagement (ECI), and why thorough documentation is crucial during the design phase. Learn how open communication and meticulous planning can help control costs while delivering high-quality architectural designs. Don't miss this episode packed with insights on maintaining budget constraints and achieving outstanding construction outcomes.

Chapters:
0:12 - Navigating Cost and Overcapitalization
14:28 - Building Costs and Regulatory Challenges
27:55 - Builder's Perspective on Construction Contracts
43:17 - Early Contractor Engagement and Cost Control
56:15 - Architectural Design and Cost Control

Please Like and Subscribe it really helps :)

Follow us on @designpriciplespod on Instagram and if you wish to contact us hit our DMs or our personal pages. We love to hear from you it really encourages us to keep going and the ideas and feedback we get from the listeners is awesome!

Episode Transcript

Ben Sutherland (00:12):
all right, we're back.
So what are we talking abouttoday?

Sam Brown (00:14):
cost of building terrifying cost of building yeah
, money talks.
Yeah, man, like I don't knowabout you guys, but I cannot
really cope with it anymore froma cost perspective, like the

(00:38):
amount of times you sit down,initial time, like meeting with
the client, and you go.
What's their budget?
And they go.
Oh, I don't really know.
How much do you think it'sgoing to cost?
And even though we're at therelative coalface in the
profession, I've got no idea.
And what it cost yesterday, itwon't cost that tomorrow.
You know what I mean.

Ben Sutherland (01:00):
Yeah, the amount of times I get asked.
I get the phone call.
Oh, if you had to put it into asquare meter rate, what would
that be?

Sam Brown (01:09):
anywhere between so hard.

Ben Sutherland (01:11):
I'm like what are you?
10 000 no anywhere between 1000 and 10 000.
You know, like you got nodesign.
How am I meant to pricesomething that doesn't exist?

Sam Brown (01:23):
yeah, it's so classic , I know.
And then when clients go on mybudgets.
You know, x and you go well, I,we can't.
You know, we can't deliver whatyour, what your brief says.
For that amount of money, weneed to compromise.
Oh no, I don't want tocompromise.
You go, well, you don't have anoption yeah, that conversation

(01:44):
changes, though once.

Ben Sutherland (01:45):
Once estimates do come in yeah, how do you guys
deal with that square meterrate question?

Sam Brown (01:52):
try and ignore it like or if there's.
But what we've done in the pastis, if we've, if there's a very
similar project that we've done, we'll often say we've done
this similar project.
You know, we caveat it with.
These are the differences andit cost X, but that's not to say

(02:13):
that yours will be the same,you know.
And again, it's that timescalething.
You know you complete a project12 months ago versus trying to
compete it now.
The value is different.
You know, sorry, value is notnow.
They're worth.
The value is different.
You know, sorry, the value isnot the right word.
The cost is different yeah, yeah, it's moving so quickly, oh

(02:34):
dude it's just, it's justimpossible to keep up and I
don't know, I don't really knowwhat the right answer is.
I don't think there is ananswer to it.

Ben Sutherland (02:44):
Well, I've got a different strategy.
My strategy, because I getasked it obviously having a
construction company does nothelp because you're expected to
know a little bit more in depththe cost of materials and labor,
but I guess asked it relativelyoften and my strategy is to get
concept design done at the veryleast.

(03:04):
I'm just like, okay, cool, I'mhappy to like maybe put some
sort of thumb in the airestimate, but we need to get
through concept design tounderstand at least a little bit
about what you're after here.

Gerard Dombroski (03:20):
Yeah, otherwise, uh, it's just, it's
just completely pointless andit's not, it's no good there's a
slight issue that comes upsometimes when you know somebody
can't afford what they want.
You know it's like are youwilling to draw them a concept
that you know is like wildly outof their reach?

(03:41):
Like I've lost clients in thepast refusing to draw something
that they couldn't afford.
Yeah, Interesting?

Sam Brown (03:50):
Yeah, because we do it the same way as you, ben, in
that we sort of say to clientshey look, you don't really know
what your budget is.
You've given us this indication.
Let's develop a concept basedon the aspects of your brief
which we think you can achieve,and then we'll get like a qs or
somebody to look at it.
You know from concept design inthat way, and we usually do

(04:11):
that and we just sign them up toa small projects agreement, up
to stage b2, and then like if,once it's priced, then you can
start to make some decisionsbecause you've got something a
little bit more concrete.
I mean, we've never had theopportunity where clients come
to us and been like I have nobudget, be free.

Ben Sutherland (04:29):
Yeah, you know, there's probably two things yeah
.
There's probably two thingsthey're really looking at when
they're asking for square meterrates.
A is like some sort of can Iafford it?
And then B, I guess, is the uh,am I going to over capitalize?

Sam Brown (04:49):
yeah, and that over capitalization thing's
interesting and that we've gotit here in our in our sort of
discussion points that we wantto cover today.
And johnny raised aninteresting point the other day.
He he was like I think newzealanders have a issue with
over capitalization because somuch of our wealth is tied up in

(05:10):
property.
Like I'd say in general andthis may be wrong, I'd be happy
to be corrected, but I know it'sthe case for myself is that,
like I don't have likeinvestments as such, most of our
our like you know family wealthyou know my wife and I is all
tied up in property, and I'd saythat's the case for a lot of
people in New Zealand, and sothere's so much value in that

(05:33):
that overcapitalization is areal issue.
But what you lose sight of isthat real human nature and that
actual like why does the valuematter when you could just want
to enjoy it?

Ben Sutherland (05:45):
if you know what I mean yeah, I mean, it's a
it's a tricky one to answerreally.
I guess like that's just kindof how new zealand's set up.
In a way.
All the governments even wantto push people into owning their
own house.
There's a lot of sort of firsthomeowner initiatives and that

(06:06):
sort of thing.
So, yeah, we definitely, wedefinitely set up I don't know
if it's about security or ifit's, you know, less risk, but
even like the kiwi saver system,you can actually withdraw your
super annuation if you're goingto purchase an asset, right?
So it's like it really is howand new zealand is set up in a

(06:27):
way yeah, being able to overcapitalize.

Gerard Dombroski (06:30):
This a bit of a position of privilege really.
Like if you, if you can affordto do that and have the desire,
why not?
But like if the sale of yourhouse one day is going to pay
for your care home or whatever.
You can kind of understand thereason people are afraid to do
these things.
I think there's amisunderstanding of what is

(06:56):
overcapitalising.
Like painting your house redinstead of grey is probably not
overcapitalising.

Ben Sutherland (07:02):
Well, that's exactly right, though I guess
overcapitalising is probably aneasier one to overcome if you
know some sort of basic, thebasic equation, to understand
what overcapitalizing is.
Even just going through thatdesign process, a lot of the
things that we do at the veryearly stages, you know run your

(07:24):
numbers on a feasibility studyso you do actually know, working
backwards from what you'repurchasing the property for what
you've got the property forwhat the property you've already
got is valued at, and thenwhere you see the future.
Is it something that you'relooking to sell within a couple
of years or straight away, or isit something that you're

(07:46):
looking to hold for the longterm?
And then working backwards.

Sam Brown (07:49):
So that's understanding that long-term
thing is the interesting one,though, right, because, being a
lot of the stuff that you do,you look, you know you're
working more with developers, sothey're looking, they're
purchasing, they're developingand they're moving on, so it's
quite a short time frame ofownership yeah or before you
realise like a return on yourinvestment, whereas for a
residential client that returnon investment could be 10, 15,

(08:14):
20, longer years.
So the overcapitalisationargument is a bit of an odd one,
because you don't know what thevalue of something is in 20
years.
So if you're looking at theover capitalization issue, I
obviously understand it inrelation to lending, but yeah at
the same time, like is it notworth investing in your home,

(08:36):
particularly from a renovationpoint of view, for better
comfort, better performance,better whatever, and not kind of
worrying about those bottomnumbers, if you can?

Ben Sutherland (08:48):
Yeah, that's the crux of it, though Obviously,
the lending is based on themarket value of the property.
So unless you've got cash inthe bank to be able to increase
the value of the property, thenyou're kind of, you're kind of,
uh, stuck, I guess you.

Sam Brown (09:04):
you have to, um, stick within the parameters yeah
within your feasibility so whenyou're doing those initial sort
of feasibility studies, beingbecause you'll probably do this
to far more rigorously andinvolved than than I do I.
I don't know about you, gerard,but like what are you, what are
you looking at?
Like what, what's the sort ofthings that you're you're

(09:28):
researching and and informationthat you're inputting to come
out with whether a project isgoing to be feasible?

Ben Sutherland (09:36):
definitely market research.
So we do, you know, justvisiting a lot of open homes to
understand what kind of whatyou're after and, um, where that
is currently sitting in themarket, talk to a lot of real
estate agents and then we kindof we we do like a feasibility
study and a concept design andwe even take that to and have a

(09:59):
sit down with real estate agents.
Which is pro, has its pros andcons.
I think it's a necessary stepto get some sort of appraisal
from them to understand whereit's sitting within the market.
That's how you can tie in thewhole feasibility.
But the cons are you end upkind of at the real estate

(10:20):
agent's mercy a little bit,where you end up not designing
how they want you to design.
But there's certain things thatreal estate agents just see
every day and they're like thissells, this sells, this sells.
But how often do they actuallysee an architecturally designed
house?
You know?
Very rarely for sale.

(10:40):
So it's so hard because some ofthe feedback you get is just
from what is out there, not whatis good design this so this
harkens back to the end of ourconversation with matt in the
last pod right, you know, andlike not to not to be too rude,
but like most people just follow, like, follow the trend.

Sam Brown (11:01):
You know lovely gold taps, you know muted tan color
palette and you know those sortof things and you're right.
Like they sell because mostpeople out there are pretty
vanilla and they're like oh,I've seen that on instagram or
on my pinterest board, so that'swhat I like and I'm confronted
with anything different.
They're a bit like oh yeah,much.

Ben Sutherland (11:21):
Well, also, just going back and answering that
question a bit more in depth, wealso do extremely rigorous due
diligence.
So we we make sure that whateverwe've got sort of under
contract does have a duediligence period.
And this is slightly differentfor you know someone that's
already got property, but youshould go through the process

(11:44):
all the same and that involvesjust even like the slope of the
section where the services are,you know, the orientation,
schools, all the zoning, schoolzones, all of that sort of thing
and ultimately those,ultimately those aspects of the
build do add or decrease thecost.

(12:08):
The ultimate, the overall costof construction, like building
on a flat section, is alwaysgoing to be significantly easy
and less expensive than buildingon even like a five-degree
slope by quite a bit degreeslope, uh, by quite a bit.

(12:28):
And then you know the not onlythat, but there's also this and
this is really like some kind ofcity format, but you know
transportation is a huge one,making sure that there's, you
know you can get the correctslopes and that sort of thing
when you're entering and exitinga property, turning circles.
So there's so many factors thatcome into play when, when trying

(12:51):
to understand what aconstruction cost more
accurately will look like, evenlike, is there a building on
there, already an existingbuilding?
What are you going to do withit?
Uh, so yeah, we basically do alot of due diligence and we look
at a lot and just through thatprocess you get a bit of an

(13:13):
understanding of how you knowthe cost of construction a
little bit more in depth.

Gerard Dombroski (13:21):
Would you go as far as like a geotech report?
Or do a lot of propertiesnowadays come with one or yeah,
it is a mixed bag, if it's.

Ben Sutherland (13:31):
If it's a bigger site, then yes, but a lot of
them come with, you know, atleast a builder's report so you
know what the state ofwhatever's on there.
It's a risk thing.
Basically, if you're putting alot of capital into it, then
purchasing a geotech report andgetting it surveyed is low risk

(13:52):
doing.
You know, doing that up frontthan doing making a mistake and
doing it later.

Sam Brown (13:56):
So the answer is yes, it's a true word if it's a
bigger site yeah, it's a trickyone, though, right, like for
your individual sort of likeresi client that's doing a
one-off house, they're lesslikely to want to just drop, you
know, three to five grand upfront for some information you
know before even seeing an idea.
So you're right, it'sdefinitely a.

Ben Sutherland (14:17):
It's definitely like a scale thing it is, but
also way less risk when you'redoing like a standalone build.
You know it's really.

Sam Brown (14:26):
Yeah, you say that, but man.

Gerard Dombroski (14:28):
A lot of people get burnt in the ground,
especially in the city.
You find an old rubbish dumpunder your house or something.

Sam Brown (14:34):
Yeah, wellington's the worst, right Like.
We've got a site at the momentand even the geotech initially
assumed you know pretty goodground when the testing and the
ground is horseshit, you knowwe've got to.
We're not laying back temporarycuts because we can't.
They're like 30 degrees andthey underpin the house by a

(14:55):
huge amount.
So they're like you know we'regoing to be like 200K in the
ground before you even startbuilding and that's terrifying
for the clients, you know youeven start building and that's
terrifying for the clients, youknow.

Gerard Dombroski (15:10):
Yeah, do you think there's a correlation
between the sort of valleys inwellington and being full?

Ben Sutherland (15:13):
of shit, probably.

Sam Brown (15:14):
They probably all rubbish dumps happen to be in an
old valley and they just findlike massive pile of bricks and
roofing iron and shit yeah, Ialso think that, like you know,
there's been a huge amount ofunregulated work where,
especially like phil, like cutand fill, where sites have just
pushed shit over a bank and youknow someone else's problem

(15:38):
later down the track, andbecause there's not a lot of
land left in the cities,particularly in wellington
you're you're sort of you'reencountering all those old
rubbish dumps all the time nowyeah, well, a huge one recently
is the obviously the flood zone.

Ben Sutherland (15:53):
So all of these properties that used to be
low-ish risk and no one reallycared that much, especially in
auckland no one's going nearthem now.
You, you have, you got anythingnear a flood zone.
You, you know, you just neverget that resale and is that like
you're at risk?

Sam Brown (16:12):
is that just that's an insurance thing, right?
Like it's not dissimilar towellington, whether it's like
tsunami zone, flood zones andobviously earthquake risk like
insurance companies aren'ttouching christchurch the same.
Yeah, insurance companiesaren't touching some of these
places yeah, definitely, andjust resale value.

Ben Sutherland (16:30):
No one wants to be at risk of flood.
You know the crazy downpoursthat have been experiencing.

Sam Brown (16:37):
It's just not worth it yeah, it's interesting
because this all ties back towhat our like root discussion is
, which is the cost of building,because to overcome a lot of
these issues is costly.
You know, to overcome theseflooding issues, you've got to
raise your house a certain level.
There's extra cost in that.
To overcome earthquake issues,you've got to strengthen the
hell out of the house.
There's cost in that.
You know, to overcome all ofthese things, you know there's

(16:59):
so much associated costs, andmatt in the last pod talked
about how nice it would be toreturn to the, the days when you
could build, you know, 1500 asquare meter or something.
Do you think that this?
That's just gone becauseregulation is just?

Ben Sutherland (17:13):
it's just killed it now yeah, that's, I would
say, right now just because ofthe high interest rates.
So obviously the high interestrates have slowed the economy
down, which is intended to do,but so because of that, we're
obviously seeing a decrease inlabor rates and material prices

(17:35):
to a certain extent, but thefact is like material prices are
just never going to come backdown the plants are away, but
yeah, and as soon as thoseinterest rates decrease again
and work picks up again, thelabor rates are going to pick
back up again.
So there's just no where wherethe where the material prices

(18:02):
will be reduced, like, unlessthere's more competition, why
would they?
And in fact, what we're seeingbecause of a lot of our
regulatory system, like, uh, sothe, the council requiring
extensive evidence forconstruction.
We're seeing, like the smartcompanies I say smart because

(18:24):
it's good for the company butnot good for the purchaser a lot
of supplier ring ring fencing,which always frustrates the hell
out of me.
So that's basically when youpurchase a product.
So let's say, for example,you're purchasing a cladding,
but that cladding is a part of asystem and that system, that

(18:45):
system, has to be purchased fromthe same supplier of the
cladding.
So then all of a sudden you'vegot, you know, your cladding.
Then all of your flashings andyour fixings that have to come
from the same supplier, they puta premium on it because their
product likely, because it's agood product, but also
competition is just not there.
And so all of a sudden, likeyour costs for material just

(19:09):
through the roof because you'vereduced competition by just
saying that if you want thisproduct, you have to buy these
accessories, as opposed to beingable to swap for similar
flashing systems or similarfixings.
I do.
I want to say, though, I dounderstand that it is also an
element of risk reduction.

(19:30):
It's those proprietary systemshave been tested and likely code
marked or brands appraised, soI understand that.

Sam Brown (19:38):
But also the ring fencing is very expensive it'd
be interesting interesting tosee if that regulatory change
around the testing of buildingproducts and systems that's
slated to come in, I think,december this year has any
impact on that.
So brands and code mark isn'tnecessarily going to be gospel

(20:02):
anymore.
They're also going to acceptother comparable overseas
testing methods.
I wonder if that will introducea better competition and just
more supply to the market.
Or are we such a small fish atthe bottom of the world that
it's not really going to haveany impact?
I don't know.
What do you reckon?

Ben Sutherland (20:21):
Well, we're definitely a small fish and
we're an island, which neverhelps.
However, more competition willalways be beneficial.
Reckon.
Well, we're definitely a smallfish and we're an island which
never helps.
However, more competition willalways be beneficial, yeah it's
just we did anybody have an?

Gerard Dombroski (20:31):
example of that with the plasterboard over
covid time frame because westarted to bring in some
international competition.
Yeah, did anybody notice a dropin any of those prices?

Ben Sutherland (20:43):
Yes, there was, maybe not a drop, but the
premium was reduced, I guess.
So they're more likely that theproduct was just down to where
it should have been in the firstplace.
But that's slightly different,like those supply chain
disruptions another issuebecause you know, in Ireland

(21:03):
nation you have those supplychain disruptions, but they can
be extremely expensive.
We're not experiencing any ofthat at the moment.
I think it's kind of come right.
But if something like covidever happens again or something
similar, we will definitely seethat again and those once the
material prices will skyrocketdue to supply and demand.

Gerard Dombroski (21:28):
Are some of those plasterboard suppliers
still around?
Yeah, I think elephant board'sstill available, isn't it?
Elephant board's kind of alwaysbeen available, but what were
the other ones?

Ben Sutherland (21:38):
Well, I believe that was just the government
bringing in container loads inbulk.
I'm not sure if they're stilldoing that or not.
I don't think.

Gerard Dombroski (21:46):
So, yeah, so yeah, that's, that's what I'd
find interesting if thoseproducts manage to find a
foothold and like survive, justsome sort of market, yeah.
But if they're not surviving,then like are we just too small
or just high?

Ben Sutherland (22:01):
barriers to entry.
It's so hard over here just toenter the market.

Sam Brown (22:08):
Yeah, and I think even from our point of view,
from like an architect andspecifier point of view, we've
used a certain system or acertain way of detailing or
whatever for so long andalthough, like a product may be
no different for us to move awayfrom it and try and learn
something new, you know we werekind of reluctant to do so and

(22:29):
that's really pushed from like,maybe from like a budget point
of view or like a necessitypoint of view, like, like, like
the situation during covid to bethe uh reason for costs main
staying super high yeah, I kindof think we are a bit to blame,
you know, as a profession,because people do just turn back
to the same thing every time.
You know.

Gerard Dombroski (22:50):
During COVID.
They gave like those possibleones.
They just gave you all thebracing requirements that you
need, like all the documentation, like the product reps.

Ben Sutherland (23:01):
So they can do it Right in there like it.

Gerard Dombroski (23:03):
I don't think that was too much of an issue.

Ben Sutherland (23:06):
Yeah, because all the bracing units that
you're, all those bracing unitsyou're specifying, are like Jib
bracing units and Jib is theproduct.

Gerard Dombroski (23:17):
So you do need something similar.
They've been tested.

Ben Sutherland (23:22):
It was a super easy example of something that
could just be substituted inyeah, one market trend to a
large degree one market trendthat you're starting to see now,
and I don't know if this willcome into fruition or not, but I
think, like something likesustainability conscious

(23:43):
materials could have a barrier,could have an entry point at
some point.
You're you're, you're seeinglike a lot of like recycled,
fully recycled products.
So as soon as they start tobecome a little bit more
feasible, I think potentiallythey could, they could start to
have legs and and and assistwith the costs in some way.

Sam Brown (24:07):
Problem with them, though as well as I think you do
, and this has been ourexperience in the type of work
that we do it.
You do pay a premium for quote,unquote green materials.
You know, yeah, and that'sstill that.
I think that will change againwith that embodied carbon
calculation stuff that's comingin, because it's just going to
become a necessity and there'sgoing to be a lot of products

(24:29):
that will just struggle toachieve the requirements and so
will slowly phase away and thesegreen materials will start to
take a bit more prominence.
But I still think you pay apremium for anything outside of
the norm, right, and that's justwhat you're kind of faced with.

Ben Sutherland (24:45):
Yeah, well, once again it's the supply and
demand.
So they need to bemanufacturing in bulk for some
sort of price reduction at somepoint.
So it comes down to what peopleare specifying.
So just to your point if peopleneed to start, if it's required
to specify, then you'd like tothink that the price is reduced

(25:07):
in time.

Gerard Dombroski (25:09):
I see a bit of a risk with that of like
continuing this ultimately.
Like the separation betweenrich and poor.
Like if all of a suddeneveryone has to buy a more
expensive green product, thenit's like the lower market
that's just trying to get anenclosure to live in.
It's slowly getting further andfurther out of reach.

(25:31):
Like yeah, it needs governmentalsupport if that's what they
really want to push right yeah,like you don't want to like ruin
a good chunk of your populationjust just for some carbon
credits.
I think we want to save theworld, but we want to save
people as well another optioncould be kind of like when elon

(25:53):
brought out the teslas.

Ben Sutherland (25:55):
You know you start off with the premium model
and then you slowly go down tothe mid-tier model and then the
low-tier model but there's noreason.
Yeah, there's no reason why youcan't tear that sort of thing.
But you're absolutely right,gerard, if if it's not
accessible, that at the end ofthe day jib is an accessible
product, so you, you have to beand I'm not saying it's a jib

(26:19):
competitor, but you have to becompetitive if you want to make
any dent in the constructionindustry in New Zealand.
There's only 5 million peoplein this country, so the market
is really not that big.

Gerard Dombroski (26:36):
Unfortunately.

Sam Brown (26:41):
I wonder how much of the cost conversation as well
stems back to.
You know, we sort of touched onour laziness as architects
sometimes to specify anythingthat we're unfamiliar with,
although I'd say that we ingeneral are more open to
changing our mindset than otherparts of the industry, for

(27:01):
instance, builders.
You know the amount of timesthat you've specified something
and a builder's gone oh, why didyou specify that?
That's different.
I don't know how to do that.
Blah, blah, blah, blah, whenall it takes is just a little
bit of like time to study, andso you're sort of I feel like
everything and councils are thesame right.
Councils see something slightlyout of the norm or something

(27:22):
that they're not used to seeingthrough a compliance pathway you
know building consent-wise andthey throw their arms up.
So the entire sort of industryat the moment is set up to
funnel you into this like onechannel, and any time you try
and like break out of it, you'rejust sort of faced with either
additional time or additionalheadaches or additional cost.

(27:43):
I don't know there needs to be,I don't know how it works, but
this sort of has to be this likeoverarching industry wide, just
like opening up I, I, 100 agreeit's.

Ben Sutherland (27:55):
I've actually found that quite funny.
I've noticed it recently andI'm allowed to say this because
I technically am a buildermyself.
But, very like, builders kindof just want to adhere to 3604
but at the same time they wantto do build cool stuff.
So any cool stuff that you'rebuilding, majority of it, it's

(28:16):
going to have some sort ofalternative details, but they
don't want to do those details.
They want to do the 3604details but they want the
architectural outcome it's.
It's such a funny dynamic whyis that?

Sam Brown (28:32):
because I feel like you've got, you know, there's
some builders that that arereally good and they're
passionate about building andthey're passionate about, like
you know, the quality of theirwork and that making a
difference, and they'repassionate about building and
they're passionate about thequality of their work and making
a difference and contributingto the built environment.
And then we have some that youdeal with that come in every day
, punch the time clock, punchout, do their house.

(28:54):
I guess it's kind of the samein any industry You're always
going to get the people thatjust like to run the mill.
But why is it that they're lessopen to change?
Is it because it takes longer?
Is it because they don't care?
Like what is from yourperspective, from the builder's
perspective, like what is thatinfluencing factor?

Ben Sutherland (29:15):
I think there's a combination of you've done it
so many times, yeah, so you knowwhat it should look like.
Yeah, you, you think thatthere's an easier way to do it,
and let's, I'm not going to lie,oftentimes there is.
That's just.
That's just a matter of, like,getting the builder on at an
early stage and getting buy-infrom them and getting them to

(29:36):
assist with those details sothey can't complain when the
details come around and theyhave to build them.
They can't complain anymore.

Sam Brown (29:48):
But yeah, I think it's just.

Ben Sutherland (29:51):
You know, you've seen it so many times.
You see what the council wereafter.
You know that you're the onethat has to actually do that
added complexity and make sureit all works.
It's complexity no one wants to.
It's always about achieving thebest outcome in the easiest

(30:14):
possible way.

Sam Brown (30:17):
Is it fear and this is where the council comes into
it as well is it fear ofliability?
Is it fear of doing somethingdifferent and doing it wrong
because you haven't done it athousand times before and then
being held culpable for it?
Because I feel like this wholeargument leaky home thing.
Obviously it was a problem, butwe've just got to grow up a
little bit.
So many of us us we haveliability insurance and

(30:41):
obviously we're not going to goout there and do negligent work,
but it's kind of there to helpus, like, push the barriers of
the norm.
If we all just did the sameshit, everything would be so
boring and generic.

Gerard Dombroski (30:53):
You know what I mean yeah, I think you like
it's a lot of us probably downto personality as well like a
builder who wants a challenge isprobably going to look for more
challenging jobs, and somebodywho's all we've ever known as
spec homes will probably andthey're happy smashing that out.
They know what they're doing,they can do it fast and well.
Then maybe they just like tostick to that.

(31:15):
I personally like going afterthings that are a bit out there
or maybe haven't been donebefore, so I kind of actively
seek that out and I don't seeany reason why it wouldn't be
the same with builders.

Sam Brown (31:30):
I think we all do as architects, though, right and I
think that's kind of thefrustrating thing that I find as
well, and is that, even thoughwe could design something that's
incredibly simple and usespretty standard methodology, as
soon as it's like comes from anarchitect, I feel like it
instantly gets architect tax.
You know what I mean?
A builder, because one you'reunlikely to engage with.

(31:52):
A builder who, like you said,does this sort of spec house,
plug in, plug out type stuff.
So they're probably going to becharging slightly more and also
I think it just comes with it.
Oh, an architect did.
It was clearly going to becomplex, you know but, sometimes
it's not, but you're still.

Ben Sutherland (32:09):
You're still up against it from a financial
point of view, because peoplejust make that assumption yeah,
I think, just going back to yourprevious question, more of it
is probably around finances asopposed to liability.
Liability definitely plays apart, but put yourself in the
builder's position, right, thisarchitect's given you these

(32:31):
extensive plans and you've got alimited time to read through
them and put a number to itright, and you've got to try and
, like, break it down as much aspossible, get your head around
all those details, understandwhat materials involved and
understand what labor isinvolved.
No one can estimate laboraccurately.

(32:52):
It's impossible.
It's absolutely impossible.
So then you find yourself okay,you're awarded the job and
you're on site and you'regetting to these complex details
and maybe it just doesn't needto be as complex as it is.
Did.

(33:12):
This would be the same outcome,or it's just additional labor
or additional time required justputs a little bit of added
stress on the whole job.
You've got to remembersometimes, when those details go
well, you don't hear about them.

(33:33):
This because it's not an issueyeah you only ever hear about
the ones that are an issuebecause something has happened,
whether it's a material or alabour or a complexity shortfall
.

Sam Brown (33:46):
But you're talking about fixed price contracts here
, ben, and I've had thisconversation with Ben Nansip
from MPB Builders, who we sharean office with a lot, and I said
to him I'm like Ben, you'restressed all the time with fixed
price contracts.
One, it's stressful, pricingTwo, it's stressful like Ben,
you're stressed all the timewith fixed price contracts.
One, it's stressful, pricingTwo, it's stressful, like you
said, trying to stay within theparameters of your fixed price
contract, particularly if thingsyou know end up a little bit

(34:08):
different.
There's got to be like there'sdefinitely something to be said
for, like cost plus or open bookcontracts and just de-stressing
the entire process and like wesort of had that.
We we recently did a build downsouth and we had that system in
place and you know there wasstill a budget.
But having everything open, youwas, you became so much more

(34:32):
aware of where your wins andlosses were and you're able to
sort of like massage the projectthroughout it.
And I think financially it's abetter way of doing it.
Difficulty is if you're lendingto build.
Banks don't want to hear aboutit.

Ben Sutherland (34:47):
Yeah.
I just want to point out,though, that the mentality that
you need to go into an open bookcontract should be that of a
fixed price contract.
Otherwise, if you go in with anopen book contract of like,
okay cool, I can just take mytime and get it right, that is

(35:08):
probably half the reason why youget extensive cost overruns on
the construction side of things.

Sam Brown (35:14):
You're talking about the builder's point of view,
right.

Ben Sutherland (35:16):
From the builder's point of view.
At the end of the day, that'sthe cost of the build.
Like the architecture, feesmore or less are fixed.

Sam Brown (35:24):
But if we're administering, if we, we as
architects, are administeringthat contract, it's on, it's our
responsibility to you know, tostay on top of that.
Let's call it uh overrun yesand no.

Ben Sutherland (35:38):
It's also the builder's responsibility because
it's their reputation at stake.
If they have said they're goingto do, they've provided you
with an estimate.
They want to adhere to the bestof their abilities.
So you still do get that labour, financial stress, although

(35:58):
you'll get paid for it.
No one wants a fist fight atthe end of a job.
You know what I mean.

Gerard Dombroski (36:04):
I think the iron from the book, though
charge-up kind of thing placeshuge trust on the builder's
performance.
Like, as soon as they are a bitslow or take a bit too long to
do things, then that bill ticksup really quick yeah, but that's
the point.

Ben Sutherland (36:24):
That's why it's still stressful.

Gerard Dombroski (36:25):
There's a risk on clients, whilst fixed price
puts a lot of pressure on thebuilder to cost it in the first
place.
I don't know If you asked mefive years ago I would have been
on that bandwagon, but I think.

Sam Brown (36:40):
On the fixed price or the open book.
Five years ago I would havebeen on that bandwagon but I
think On the fixed price or theopen book.

Gerard Dombroski (36:42):
Oh, that I would have been.
I would have said that fixedprice kind of makes builders put
in a larger price because ofunknowns at risk, correct, and
depending on what contractthey're using, they might
account for retentions orsomething in their price.
But then if you go fixed price,sorry, charge up.

(37:05):
In the ideal world it'sextremely fair and people get
paid for what they do, but thatdoesn't bring the same level of
work ethic I think that you getwith fixed price.
Because when you have fixedprice, like you actively are
chasing the clock, like as thebuilder, like because I do a lot

(37:26):
of my sculpture sort of things,is fixed price.
Well, all of them, yeah.
So then I'm like, all right,I'm going to do this for this
match.
This is going to be my hourlyrate if I get it done this time,
and then it, yeah, massivelydwindles if you take too long,
which often I do Totally,whereas like who, yeah, like do
you understand?

(37:46):
Like fixed price I think isbetter for a client, like it
adds more certainty to theirbudget.
I think you're right.
It just means that the builderhas to price it properly, and
maybe that means the tenderperiod should be longer, like if
you're tendering or whatever,like how long you give them to

(38:06):
price something.

Sam Brown (38:08):
I agree, but I also but I also am finding that with
fixed price contracts the costis like some of the costs that
are put up are astronomicalbecause builders are building in
so much unknown and so muchrisk.
And maybe you're right, gerard,maybe it is because the tender
period is too short.
I mean, we average what?

(38:28):
Four to six weeks for a tenderperiod, and a lot of the time
you can't get anything out of asubcontractor for you know eight
weeks.

Gerard Dombroski (38:36):
So they just put in a provisional sum, but
that's laced with you know,that's laced with high margin
and you know uncertainty yeah, Ithink it depends on the economy
as well, like while covid wasbooming and builders were
everywhere, nobody wanted totender a thing, because they're
kind of well, they were busyname their price and yeah.
So, yeah, there's a lot offacts at play, but you just want

(38:59):
to be careful with full arm andbook, because you've got to
police it pretty hard.
And full arm and book, I thinkit should be Like you want to
see everything.

Ben Sutherland (39:08):
Yeah, just going to adding to your point, sam,
it's hard to price withoutadding extra allowance into
something that you've neverbuilt before, extra allowance in
to something that you've neverbuilt before.
It's not like.
It's not like you can just putan accurate labor price to
something that you've never donebefore.
Like it's just impossible.
How can you do it?

(39:29):
So that's why, like, if you'rebuilding complexity, you have to
make allowances.
Yes, those allowances probablyshould be a bit more refined.
But have you noticed, becauseyou've done a couple of, let's
say, sip houses now, have younoticed, was the first one
expensive and then the secondone more in line with what your

(39:52):
expectations?

Sam Brown (39:54):
no, I haven't had the opportunity to use the same
build or a second time aroundyet, although, in saying that,
like the build that we're doingin Queenstown with Compound, I
know that from a labour point ofview because I've built two
sub-houses side by side.
It's the same contract, so Iguess it's two houses but one
contract.
So we haven't necessarily beenable to see the monetary value,

(40:19):
but the labour and the speed ofconstruction for the second one
versus the first one was, likemarkedly different and I bet if
you get them to do a third oneagain, you'll see those.

Ben Sutherland (40:30):
Those not savings, but it should be priced
accordingly you'd hope.

Sam Brown (40:34):
so yeah, exactly, and I think that comes back down to
the whole economies of scalething right.
The more often and this iswhere we're coming at it with
that citrus concept you know,ideally the more often you do
something, the cheaper it gets.
The first ones will beexpensive, but you know, as the
experience grows across theboard, you know those prices
start to drop.

(40:55):
Problem being is that you know,like you said, you build in
complexity.
But my argument to that and Ihave this argument with builders
quite often is they're like oh,you've designed this super
complex thing.
And I'm like no, it's notcomplex, it's exactly the same
as this detail or whatever.
It's exactly the same as, likethe last project that you did.

(41:15):
You're just looking at it in adifferent context, but it is the
same.

Ben Sutherland (41:20):
So then, is that not up to the architect to
provide the correct, I guess,display their details or their
drawings in a way that theyunderstand it?
I don't know.

Sam Brown (41:32):
Is it?

Ben Sutherland (41:32):
a detailing thing, I guess, is my question.

Sam Brown (41:34):
It could be a detailing thing and I guess you
know, particularly if you're notworking with the same builder
time and time again.
They're regularly gettingdifferent detailing sets and
like laid out differently,different appearance every time.
So it feels like you're tryingto reinvent the wheel with every
project, but it's notnecessarily the case.
I think as well.

(41:55):
Oh, now I've lost my train ofthought.

Ben Sutherland (41:58):
Do you guys go through your drawing set?
This is just a a curiouscuriosity question.
Do you guys go through yourdrawing set once it's kind of
finished and be like if I was abuilder?
You know, would I understandthis?
Does it have all of theinformation I require on it?
Is everything being annotatedcorrectly?
Has everything got the correctdimensions on it?
Is everything being annotatedcorrectly?

(42:19):
Has everything got the correctdimensions on it?
Is it easy to understand pageto page, like you're not going
from the first page to themiddle page?
Is the layout formattedcorrectly?
Because all of those thingshelp significantly.

Sam Brown (42:40):
Do you reckon that that helps reduce cost and
building?

Ben Sutherland (42:43):
I think it helps reduce cost because it makes
the build run a little bitsmoother okay, interesting I
mean pricing, if you knew, andpricing yeah, I guess.

Sam Brown (42:59):
No, we don't, but we do ask for feedback from
builders and tenderers on, like,our drawing set after a project
, like was it easy to understand?
But I guess, sorry, I lost mytrain of thought, I picked it
back up again, sorry, I'm backwith myself.
Um, what we're talking aboutand I think a lot of the issues

(43:22):
that we're sort of discussingcertainly stem around tender
projects particularly, orprojects where a contract is
engaged late in the piece, bethat post-building consent or be
that midway through detaildesign or something.
I think there's certainly a lotof value, although you lose

(43:42):
that opportunity for competition.
But there's so much value in anearly contractor involvement
engagement because you have thebuilder along with you, so
you're developing the designwith them in tow.
So you're kind of workingthrough all of those intricacies
, those details, you're lookingfor those cost savings through
the process and that's what wetry and engage with as much as

(44:06):
possible.
But what's difficult from aclient's perspective is, like I
just mentioned, is thatcompetition thing.
You're sort of tying yourselfinto somebody, initially on the
recommendation of either us or afriend or what have you.
I don't know what are yourguys' thoughts on that, that eci
process, because we think it'sa great method, but I just we
just don't get the opportunityto sort of utilize it as much as

(44:27):
we'd like I think it's good intheory.

Gerard Dombroski (44:29):
I've just had the comment in the past about
like oh, we're going torecuperate our costs from that
time period, from the builderyeah so from that early
involvement process, thenthey're factoring that time into
the price as well and whyshouldn't they?

Ben Sutherland (44:45):
it's not like you're getting paid for it.

Gerard Dombroski (44:47):
But like are you not guaranteed that they're
going to be that competitive?
And then they're giving you alot of feedback, which
ultimately quite often is superhelpful, but like you're not
guaranteed that yeah you knowmost, bang for your buck.

Sam Brown (45:04):
Ultimately, it's that trust thing again, though,
right and it's.
It comes back to you know,ideally utilizing contractors or
even even consultants it's thesame argument utilizing people
you've worked with before andbuilding that relationship thing
, and, and therefore ideallythat will reduce cost because
you're not trying to re-engagewith somebody new every time.
But I think, in terms ofrecuperating costs, I think

(45:27):
they're totally within theirright to.
But I also feel like, if thecontract goes ahead, there
should be some sort of level ofit's built in.

Ben Sutherland (45:37):
Yeah, agreed, I mean, I've only really done that
throughout my whole career.
There was makers and makersfabrication, you know.
So we, we did numerous tenders,but ultimately makers
fabrication was always the morecompetitive and and MakersFab

(46:00):
generally had early contractorinvolvement and that was
probably the reason why it wasmore competitive, because you
understand the complexities fromthe get-go.

Sam Brown (46:15):
Was that internally?
Was that withMakersArchitecture and MakersFab
, or are you just talking aboutas a contractor in general?

Ben Sutherland (46:22):
No Makers Architecture, Makers Fab, and
even now, with bare architectureand bare construction, it's
just keeping it internal isalways our preference, because
the transfer of information fromthe architect to the
construction side you know's,are you then blurring into

(46:43):
design build?

Sam Brown (46:45):
that's yeah, okay, yep, but it's not like we
weren't tendering at all I guessthis kind of peels us all the
way back to, I mean, this sortof discussion is it's important
for architects and builders tolisten to this and kind of, you
know, think internally abouttheir systems and the way to

(47:06):
reduce building, because thecost of building is out of
control.
But from a client perspective,I mean, like, what can they take
away from this?
What are the mechanisms forbuilding, you know, trying to
avoid cost overrun?
What are the mechanisms for,you know, trying to get value in
your project or anything likethat?
I mean, what have you guys gotoff the top of your head that

(47:28):
that they could take away?

Gerard Dombroski (47:32):
I think a thorough set of documents helps
every time, because quite oftenin the past we've tried to save
money by I don't know savedesign fees, assuming that then
that would roll over into, say,building.
You know you get extra 10 grandor whatever to spend on your
building.
But so often like the morethorough your documentation,

(47:57):
like the more accurate yourpricing is going to be.
Like if you're going down thatroute of attended project or
even like if you're going fixed,then you've got more price,
more accurate information toprice on.
So I think the just being asthorough as extremely possible
yeah, up front which, if youasked me five, ten years ago, I

(48:18):
would have had the oppositeopinion no, I agree.

Ben Sutherland (48:20):
I think rigor like having a rigorous process
within the architectural realmof the design stage man.
It has such an immense flow-oneffect through the construction
phase.
It's interesting though it is,I've got to say, though it's
pretty hard to put a dollarvalue to that.

Sam Brown (48:37):
Those savings do you yeah, well, that's the thing
right like, and do you find Imean this is an issue that I
find is when you're setting fees, clients aren't looking that
far ahead.
So they see your fees and theygo, oh they're high.
Yeah, well, they're highbecause you know we want to be
able to, like you said, you're aproducer really thorough
documentation set and we we loadthat stage b5 pretty heavily.

(48:59):
You know that detaileddocumentation stage pretty
heavily, because we want to dothat within our studio.
But you know an extra sort offive grand or 10 grand or
whatever in architects fees atthat stage could save you 20 to
30 to 40 more in a build stage.
You know, but clients don't,they don't really make that

(49:22):
correlation.
That.
How do we, you know, how do youbest?
I don't know.
I guess what I'm trying to sayis how do you best communicate
that and justify your fees?

Gerard Dombroski (49:33):
Yeah.
I think that's because mostpeople are coming from a
background where they're likeit's down to that percentage
value again of 5% of houses thatare architecture or done by an
architect, or probably less ofhouses.

Sam Brown (49:48):
Yeah.

Gerard Dombroski (49:49):
So if all your friends' experience of getting
a house built or something istheir plans cost five grand
because it's off the set, yeah.
But if you want architectureand you want an element of
bespoke, an element of design inthere, you unfortunately have

(50:09):
to pay for that.

Sam Brown (50:10):
and I would then be slightly worried if your
architecture fees were too cheap, because then you're going to
run into some issues on site andthat's often where that like
project overrun comes into it, Ithink is yeah, like low, yeah,
poor quality documentation, lackof like understanding, lack of

(50:30):
information, lack of surety.
You know, moving into, movinginto the start, you know you
might get through consent, butif you're starting construction
and there's not like a completeproject overview and
understanding, it's so riskyfrom a like, a cost over run
point of view.

Gerard Dombroski (50:49):
Yeah, just the unknowns are way higher.
So that's the RFIs and extramoney you're going to have to
pay on site.
This is in the ideal world.
You know there's still chancesyou'll find things you don't
know that were there underground.
Yeah, it's generally more likejobs are more relaxing when
they're out of the ground yeah,it's hard to.

Ben Sutherland (51:11):
I think the ideal contract is more or less
what we're doing is it's hard todo a fixed price on anything to
do with the soil at any pointin time, really anything earth
related.
You just don't know.
It's impossible, you don't knowwhat's under there.

Sam Brown (51:27):
So yeah, well, me and gerard were talking about that
before you jumped on ben, I gota raft of rfis today that were
just like 17 rfis, and 15 of theresponses were.
Read the drawings, you twat youknow like, but right there yeah,
and like we don't, we don'tcharge hourly for rfis, but

(51:49):
maybe we, yeah, you know,everyone, everyone I talked to
are like why?
And yeah, I know we felt funnyabout it for a while, but maybe
we need to because you knowyou're just wait, you're just
wasting your time, yeahresponding to stupid queries
like that.

Ben Sutherland (52:02):
We do.
I would happily even just lowermy rate slightly if they had an
issue with it.

Sam Brown (52:09):
Yeah.

Ben Sutherland (52:10):
But I would never not do hourly rate.

Sam Brown (52:13):
Far advice Good lesson.
Take that on board.

Gerard Dombroski (52:17):
Yeah, it's a big unknown, the old council.

Sam Brown (52:21):
Yeah.

Gerard Dombroski (52:24):
Whatever, the flavour of the month is that
they've been told to look at.
Yeah, that's.

Ben Sutherland (52:29):
That has to be a podcast in itself, though,
surely.
I've been thinking about this alot and I'm like how do we do
that podcast without justabsolutely annihilating the
council?
Maybe we just need to get likea council worker of some
description on here and have aproper conversation.

Sam Brown (52:48):
Oh, it'd be so hard not to just kind of fly off that
handle that way.

Gerard Dombroski (52:54):
You guys think tendering's coming back.

Sam Brown (52:58):
Yeah.
I asked the builder the otherday, would you tender this
project?
And he was like yep, yeah, it'sthe first time I've ever heard
him say that it's still quiet,so builders need work.
Uh yeah, the demand is therefor sure so you kind of hope
that a bit of you know, becausebecause there's competition
there'll be a little bit morecost reduction yeah, yeah, and

(53:21):
don't be afraid to ask can yougo any lower on this?

Ben Sutherland (53:27):
where the savings would you we have?
Like I had, literally, weliterally would have that
conversation every single daywith either a contractor or a
subcontractor.
I, I just don't, I don't thinkit's.
It's not like we're trying tolike shaft anyone, it's just
trying to understand where thecosts are.

Sam Brown (53:45):
It's a good point actually.

Ben Sutherland (53:46):
And where the savings can be made, and how are
you going to know withoutasking?

Sam Brown (53:50):
It's a good point actually, because I think even
with our fees, to a degree aswell, there is a little bit of a
barter process.
I feel like there should be alittle bit of a barter process
like architect's fees as well asbuild costs, because everyone's
just going to put their bestfoot forward, right, and I think
so often everyone eitherblindly accepts it or they don't

(54:10):
question it or even just havean open discussion about it.
You know what I mean, and Ithink that there should be a bit
more of that, both withbuilding, like you said, ben I
think that's a great idea I mean, you so often just accept it
for gospel but I also think withour fees as well.
Like you know, sometimes youput a fee offer out there and

(54:31):
you just never, ever hear backfrom somebody and you might, you
know, chase them up a month ortwo later and they're like, oh,
you're too expensive.
I'm like, well, we could havetalked about things, you know
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's.
They don't even write that inthere like, oh, please feel free
to discuss I do and you know,and they're just like, but your
fees said this and I'm like,yeah, but like you know, let's

(54:52):
talk about it.

Gerard Dombroski (54:55):
We need work as well what do you guys think
about predictions moving forward?
Are we the world looking,looking better?

Ben Sutherland (55:06):
it's definitely looking.
The interest rates will becoming down soon.
Well, that's just obviously myopinion, but I would say within
the end of the year it'll be abit of a decent reduction.
I think that means thathopefully, building will pick
back up a little bit as peoplestart borrowing money purchasing

(55:27):
property again.

Sam Brown (55:29):
Yeah, you'd hope so, but I think there's always going
to be.
I think, you know, a decade orhowever long you know working in
this profession, there's alwaysgoing to be something.
Right, you know interest ratesmight drop, but then a new
legislation will come in yeah,something, you know something
will happen and then, like afactory will burn down and you
know you can't buy any jibanymore, or something you know

(55:51):
like there's always like there'salways something that's
impacting our industry and like,personally, I think it's just
on like a very, it's just like asteady inclination.

Ben Sutherland (56:05):
Well, holistically, it is.

Sam Brown (56:07):
Yeah, obviously.

Ben Sutherland (56:09):
But within that cycle where we are currently,
it's definitely slower.

Sam Brown (56:15):
That.
You know that era of building aI hate this term, but an
architecturally designed home.
You know the era of buildingthat for four and a half
thousand a square meter ispretty well done well, that's a
standalone right, what you'retalking about yeah, yeah, sorry,
standalone, yeah, yeah, butyeah, that's my, that's my

(56:35):
thoughts oh, square meter rates.

Ben Sutherland (56:40):
How ballsy of you to start dropping some
square meter rates all right butwhat if they want to buy?
What if it's only a small?
No, I'm just kidding smallsmall.

Sam Brown (56:50):
Small means way higher square yeah, what if it's
massive?

Ben Sutherland (56:53):
then what if it's massive?
But if you, if someone came, toyou with a brief of 4,500
square metres.
Would you do it?

Sam Brown (57:04):
We tried really, really, really hard the
restricted section, that project, that sip house in Newtown.
Clients came to us with a brief.
They said we don't want tospend more than 4,200 a square
metre and we did everything wecould on that project to get the
cost of that building down.
Like it is, it's a.
I reckon it's an awesomebuilding but it's a shell Like.

(57:26):
There's very littleornamentation to that thing at
all and we did that for $4,800.

Ben Sutherland (57:33):
That's a man who's clearly run his numbers,
to be that specific, though, soI respect that yeah.

Gerard Dombroski (57:48):
There was that old, old, uh, frank lord bright
.
When he got asked to do thatfive thousand dollar house or
something, some some guy askedhim to do a, an affordable house
, and uh I think he said he wassurprised that nobody, nobody
had him before.
So he took it up and in thatone he lost money on the job so
he could reach the target.

Sam Brown (58:07):
Just took no fees.
That doesn't count.
Surely that doesn't count.

Gerard Dombroski (58:12):
Buy the on-forbiter or something, yeah.

Sam Brown (58:14):
Isn't that like you doing all the landscaping at
your mum's place, Gerard?

Gerard Dombroski (58:19):
Oh yeah, oh no , at the hospital we did yeah,
yeah.

Sam Brown (58:22):
Oh no, at the hospital we did yeah, yeah, yeah
, yeah, the hospital exactly.

Gerard Dombroski (58:25):
It's a commercial job and I'm out there
in the rain for a week on myhands and knees.

Sam Brown (58:29):
We're suckers for punishment, old architects?
Eh, it's all for the endproduct.
I love the garden.

Gerard Dombroski (58:35):
The garden pops off a building.
Yeah, yeah.
Really puts that finishingtouch.
Fight to drive past and not seea garden.

Sam Brown (58:41):
Oh, it'd kill you, eh , yeah.

Gerard Dombroski (58:44):
I think architects though you know maybe
sometimes we can't be botheredfinding what other plasterboard
there are out there, but I thinkwe're ever reinventing the
wheel to try and make thingscheaper.

Sam Brown (58:56):
I think I agree.
Definitely a big picture ofthinkers and always scratching
the noggin to try find somethingcheaper I know people like to
think that architects are outhere just making shit expensive,
but I think it's the oppositereally like oh yeah, we, we work
really hard, really hard tokeep costs down and stay within

(59:18):
budget and a lot of the timeit's just out of our hands
because stuff costs what itcosts, you know can you build?

Ben Sutherland (59:25):
I don't, I'm not sure you can you build like a
spec home, a one-off spec homefor four and a half thousand
dollars a square meter thesedays yeah, apparently I know, I
know people.

Sam Brown (59:36):
People have recently told me that yeah, that they can
like this.
So the citrus thing, right likeI, I passed that around
developers because I thought itcould suit them and you know we
sort of were talking about buildrates and I told them you know
what we built comparable onesfor?
And they're like, oh no, I'mnot interested.
We can build houses for 2500 asquare meter.

(59:57):
And I really wanted to say tothem how, where, and show me,
because I, if I, if I went inthere and huffed and puffed, I
reckon I could blow that thingdown yeah, purchasing power.
I wouldn't underestimatepurchasing power, even so though
you've still got labor right,and even if your chippy's
labor's not too bad, subbieskill you we haven't even touched

(01:00:21):
on subtrades in this pod.
Maybe that's a whole otherdiscussion.

Ben Sutherland (01:00:26):
You just need to once again have that
conversation with thesubcontractors.
See the way we do it isdifferent to how you guys do it.
We give the subbies our numberand be like can you do it for
this, which is obviouslysomething you can't do when the
economy's up and everyone's gota lot of work on, but especially

(01:00:49):
right now, you can 100% do thatLike this is our value, this is
our figure for this.

Sam Brown (01:00:56):
And how do you come to that, though?
Ben that figure.

Ben Sutherland (01:01:00):
Well, experience data, just previous work,
because when you've done more orless the same thing over and
over again, differentarchitecturally, but the
plumbing side of a three-bedroomhouse with a kitchen and blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah reallydoesn't vary that much.

Sam Brown (01:01:24):
But then again, like I've had this discussion
recently where I've said youknow we're building this quite
simple structure, I cannot seeit costing more than I think
I've worked out.
I had a bit of, quite a bit ofearthworks associated with it.
I worked out it'd be about 7000000 a square metre and the
builder was like no, you can'tbuild that, not a chance.

Ben Sutherland (01:01:43):
Yeah.

Sam Brown (01:01:44):
And you're like what the hell?

Ben Sutherland (01:01:46):
But once again, it's a negotiation just having
that conversation about price asopposed to just receiving a
quote and accepting it.

Sam Brown (01:01:57):
So what's the takeaways?
Guys, Challenge prices.

Ben Sutherland (01:02:02):
At the moment, definitely.

Sam Brown (01:02:03):
Thorough documentation.

Ben Sutherland (01:02:06):
Yeah, that's key Advocate for your fees.

Sam Brown (01:02:10):
Work hard on specification, don't be lazy.

Ben Sutherland (01:02:15):
Yeah, work hard on specification, Specify the
right products.

Sam Brown (01:02:21):
Yeah and use I don't't know.

Gerard Dombroski (01:02:24):
Try not to be too complex just get an account
at steel and chew I guess theyultimately just get clients that
have more money and not have toworry about any of this the

Ben Sutherland (01:02:36):
dream.
I mean.
That's what the uh, that's what99% of architecture firms out
there aim to achieve, isn't it?

Sam Brown (01:02:47):
Yeah, I mean, maybe.
I mean I like that target.
You know that we're trying toprovide architecture for
everybody and that our targetaudience is, you know, is not
just your high flyers.
I think that architectureshould be accessible to everyone
and not just, you know, the top1% or 5%, whatever.
Yeah, there's got to be a wayto still produce good

(01:03:08):
architecture and make itaffordable.

Ben Sutherland (01:03:10):
I know this pod is coming to an end, but one
thing that we definitely shouldhave covered, because it's
probably quite key in terms ofcost, is the architect being the
or the builder, or either beingthe developer or having some
sort of joint venture scenariowhere they've got skin in the

(01:03:32):
game.

Sam Brown (01:03:34):
Do you reckon that helps reduce cost because you've
got more care?

Ben Sutherland (01:03:39):
I think just care and control is huge and I
wonder, I always wonder how muchjust not knowing about money
impacts the actual build cost.
So how often?
Unless you're like a, let's say, an architect who's built their

(01:04:00):
own house, they probably knowsomething about build costs.
But unless you're the one thatdirectly has to pay those bills
and procure that materialunderstanding, the cost kind of
goes a little bit over your head.
I don't know, is that a fairthing to say, or am I being well

(01:04:23):
, I was going to say that Irecently built my own house and
managed to contract and so andprocured a lot of material and
have a very clear understandingof how much things cost.

Sam Brown (01:04:33):
And now, almost nine months on, I'm back in the dark,
because the shit just changesso quickly.

Ben Sutherland (01:04:42):
Yeah, that's fair.

Gerard Dombroski (01:04:43):
Okay.
Yeah, Just going through thatprocess of being so aware is, I
think, important, Like doingmum's place.
That hits home a lot harderthan other people.
Yeah, Sometimes you can in ahealthy way disassociate a
little bit from the fullimplications Totally.

Sam Brown (01:05:07):
But when it's your money or a close friend or
family person's money, it kindof yeah, it resonates a little
bit harder.
I think so.

Gerard Dombroski (01:05:17):
Yeah, you can hit home, which is good.
I think it makes us a littlebit wiser in a small way.
Yeah.

Ben Sutherland (01:05:28):
Yeah, oh well, I guess that's the pod Nice.

Gerard Dombroski (01:05:34):
Good chat lads .

Ben Sutherland (01:05:35):
All right.

Gerard Dombroski (01:05:36):
Happy days.
Cheers for tuning in.
We'll see you all on the nextone.
Peace.
See you, bye-bye.

Ben Sutherland (01:05:41):
Bye-bye, soon again.
We'll see you all on the nextone.
Peace, see ya.