May 1, 2025 • 58 mins
The conversation with Raimana Jones from Atelier Jones Design delves deep into the heart of what makes good design truly exceptional—craftsmanship. Drawing inspiration from architectural legends like Alvar Aalto and Walter Gropius, we explore how the most revered designers extended their vision beyond buildings to encompass furniture, lighting, and complete environments.
Raimana shares his journey through fabrication and making, revealing the powerful feedback loop between crafting with your hands and designing with your mind. We unpack how this tactile understanding shapes thoughtful design decisions that simply can't emerge from digital processes alone. The discussion turns to a concerning trend—the gradual disappearance of workshop culture from design education, as hands-on making gives way to digital tools and 3D printing.
What truly elevates this conversation is our exploration of material understanding as the essence of craftsmanship. Just as Tadao Ando mastered concrete through deep connection with the material, Romana's elegant steel kitchens showcase how intimate knowledge transforms ordinary materials into extraordinary designs. While budget realities often dictate the level of craft possible in projects, we discover inventive approaches to maintaining craftsmanship even with constraints.
Whether you're a practicing designer, architecture enthusiast, or someone who appreciates the beauty of well-crafted spaces, this episode offers a compelling reminder of why material engagement matters. As James Dyson wisely noted, "The visceral experience of making things by hand is a wise teacher." Join us for an inspiring discussion about rediscovering play, embracing failure, and cultivating a deeper connection with the materials that shape our world.
Key Episode Links:
- https://www.atelierjonesdesign.co.nz/pages/about-us
Chapters:
0:00 - Introduction to Craft in Design
5:00 - Exploring Cross-Media Design Processes
11:15 - Workshop Culture and Material Play
20:25 - The Design Process: Sketching to Making
27:00 - Understanding Materials Deeply
33:48 - Budget Constraints and Craft Quality
41:47 - Craftsmanship in Architecture
Please Like and Subscribe it really helps :)
Follow us on @designpriciplespod on Instagram and if you wish to contact us hit our DMs or our personal pages. We love to hear from you it really encourages us to keep going and the ideas and feedback we get from
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week's episode is brought to you by Paradog.
Try their Albi and limitedrelease.
Fresh up beers this month forthe tastiest drops straight off
the vine.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Nice.
Welcome back to the DesignPrinciples podcast.
Today's episode we're chattingabout craft, exploring the
importance of craftsmanship, howit informs thoughtful design
principles and its role increating meaningful spaces in
our built environment.
Joining us for thisconversation is Romana Jones
from Italia, jones Design.
(00:29):
Romana shares valuable insightsand personal experiences drawn
from years of exploring, playingand refining his design
processes.
So we hope you enjoy thisconversation, romana, and please
don't forget to like andsubscribe.
(01:00):
I guess the basis of this chatwas, you know, for those who
listened to the last episodeanyway, you know that I'm
travelling around Europe at themoment getting to see some
amazing architecture and it'spretty easy to see, like a lot
of those old school architects,like Alvar Aalto and Walter
(01:21):
Gropius and Luca Buzia, any ofthose guys they, they all kind
of got this thing where they'velike extended their architecture
to not only just the design ofa building but the craft of
lighting, or lighting design orfurniture design, which is kind
of similar to your art.
And so, yeah, just reallywanted to talk about how that
(01:44):
craft can kind of cross a lot ofdifferent media and how that
can kind of help to, you know,to shape that design process or
refine that design process andbe useful within that
architecture realm as well.
That was kind of the thoughtsbehind the chat today.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, you, roman obviously jumped into my mind
pretty quickly as somebody who'svery involved in the
fabrication making side, so Iimagine the feedback loop within
your own work it's pretty heavyfrom making to designing,
making, designing, yeah yeah,like how, um how to integrate
(02:26):
craft in more architecturalprojects and interior design
schemes?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
like how can you?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
yeah, design at the level of a door handle or a
light fixture, for example andthen just like, even like a
little bit before that, likecraft itself and how important
that is and is it still?
Are we still crafting, I guess,in a way that we used to craft,
if that even makes sense and ifand what is?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
craft and if not, or or if we are, what impact is
that having on?
Like the design product,everything kind of world, that
tangible interaction, is thatbeing lost and is therefore all
the stuff around us?
Is that being affected?
I guess these are pretty bigquestions.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It's a pretty big topic, but I think there's a lot
of.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
For me it's probably not the answer people want to
hear, but it really depends onthe budget, like if the budget
allows to go down towards thosefine details, designing those
detailed and crafted elements.
I think it comes down to that,and also back then well, alvar
(03:51):
Aalto's era, I think, and alsothe country there's.
It's in the culture that is.
Those is a craft.
A craft culture is way more, uh, you know, artisanal businesses
that are passed on fromgeneration to generation.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
It's interesting you say that lisa in our episode
with her very briefly touched onit, but I it kind of resonated
with me and I think with a, witha few other people as well.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
She was sort of saying how she was chatting with
a friend who was brought up inportugal and they were taught
design appreciation at school orart appreciation at school and
I think like that interactionwas let's just call them
beautiful things.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
You know, isn't?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
necessarily taught as much specifically in new
zealand as it is it maybe asinternationally.
Maybe that's where the peopleseeking craft or well-crafted
things.
Maybe it's a little less here,yeah that's a really interesting
point.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
It also reminds me of I used to take woodworking
classes from this older guy.
He looked like he was in his80s and he was trained.
He's one of the old schoolwoodworker and he trained with I
can't remember the name of.
He's a well-known woodworker inNew Zealand and he founded he's
(05:18):
one of the founders of theNelson School of Woodworking.
So he trained with that guy andhe was telling me exactly that
that in or he told mespecifically in England, women
are used to be trained toappreciate crafted, well-crafted
(05:41):
things.
So I think I think there's alsothat.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I think in architecture school when we were
going through, we were probablyon like the tail end of uh, the
the last remaining slither of,probably, workshop culture.
I think just after we left,they started removing the
metalwork room and downsizingand fitting in more robots and
(06:07):
3D printers.
There wasn't a huge push for it,but there was the space for it
and I taught for a semester andwe're talking about this today
with some ex-MASI woodwork who'srunning part of the woodwork
workshop and just how nostudents are really pushed into
(06:29):
that space anymore, like unless,like you absolutely have to.
It's not really part of thedesign process.
I tried to push people into theworkshop.
I made them do a workshop day,a sewing day, like I brought
clay in another day and I thinkjust trying to introduce people
to different materials.
I think people respond todifferent materials like or find
(06:52):
one that you really relate toand become a potter, who knows?
But I think just play, there'sjust lowering the threshold.
You don't have to go out and bea master potter on the first
day.
I think just reintroducing playinto things, just the act of
(07:12):
making, is, I think, prettybeneficial to design, do you
think?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Gerard, that you mentioned a play and you're not
going to become a master potteron the first day, do you think?
Speaker 5 (07:28):
The like, shifting maybe level of patience or
attention span, of like themoving generations if we go back
like we were just talking about.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Alvar Atoll, you know these older generations.
They had more time, seemingly,in their day-to-day life.
Maybe not, maybe we're justbeing naive.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Versus the modern modern day TikTok generation.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
You even think about people going through
architecture school now youngerthan us like.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
They want results now right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So do you think that that shift to the more robotic,
the less playful kind of like Iwant a final solution and I want
it now, type mentality hasresulted in that change in focus
of the schools and of theeducation?
Or do you think that that wasjust it was going to happen
regardless?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
it's certainly a compelling argument.
I don't know.
You design on a computer andyou want to see it immediately
like rather than like I'm in mywork.
Anyway, I'm big about likediscovery, so trying not to draw
too much.
So while you're making you'rekind of designing at the same
time so you can stumble intothings or let process drive you
(08:30):
a little bit.
Romano, how do you find you'redesigning some of your furniture
pieces?
Do you work purely sketchingfirst before you start making?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Yeah mainly sketching We'll be sketching like a lot
of different iterations.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, then modeling and then making and prototyping,
and then.
Digital modeling yeah, digitalmodeling, not fashion, modeling,
fashion.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I'll just make a dress.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Make a dress and do a runway, I will model it.
Then I would prototype itprototype things in the workshop
and then I'll go back tosketching and modeling and
refine it.
It will be tech, tech, tech.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, that will be the usual process do you find
that the process for sort ofdesigning a space is your?
You know, your process fordesigning a space is kind of
similar to designing like apiece of furniture, for example,
or, um, you know, do you usethe the same sort of kind of, or
is there any overlap there oranything?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
That's a good question One.
They're different and similar,so one similar thing that I like
to do personally is I like todraw on isometric.
I like to do isometric drawings, so I would create a base on
whether it's furniture or aspace.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
so in the case of well, let's say furniture, for
example a stool I would modelthe stool roughly like just a
footprint, say as a extruded box, and then then I would sketch
over it just to get the theproportions right then for a
Speaker 4 (10:29):
space.
It says a kitchen.
I'll just get the volume of thekitchen, I'll cut out two walls
so I can see through, and thenI would model the base cabinet.
You know how?
Uh, yeah, kitchens 600 deep,900 high, so I would model those
and then I would draw over it.
(10:52):
So it's so similar in that way.
Um, but it's it's different inscope because I'd like to think
when you design a space, there'sway more to design really.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I saw some of your.
You've got some of thosedrawings on your website.
I thought they were really,really.
I guess I had a lot ofinformation in them, so I can
see how it would be such auseful design tool for you.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, the one on your design services where there's
like everything in their plates.
Yeah, it's great.
Little baskets, aprons.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Oh cheers.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
That's an epic drawing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, I think the key with drawing.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
For me it's to be loose, to kind of not be
precious about it, especially atthe concept stage, to really
yeah, really be explorative.
It's okay if you, if your linesare.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
I'm not going to be straight so you just I think
it's important to build layersupon layers upon layers and not
be afraid to just draw.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's that concept of play again right, yes, exactly.
Where does that sketch first orthat draw first mentality for
you come from?
I look at a lot of my peers orour peers, and particularly
younger people coming throughlike they're quite afraid of
putting pen to paper and a lotof the time.
I think it is maybe notnecessarily a fear, but it's
(12:30):
like you want the drawing tolook perfect or look right or
work, you know and so you kindof have that fear of the line
not being in the right place orwhat have you?
But you learn so much from thatplay process.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
Where does that kind of draw first?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
mentality for you come from.
I think it's just a habit.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I took yeah, it came from when I was a little kid
always liked to draw and it goesback to play.
I think that was for me beingplayful, it was just drawing,
drawing, drawing and yeah, and Ialways stuck to drawing through
(13:09):
through high school, throughuni and that um isometric
process that I described.
Uh, I did that, yeah,throughout all my uni years.
So it's it's so it's just ahabit.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I like that you could build your style of design
approach.
What about you, Gerard and Ben?
What do you guys?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
do first.
What's your kind of like go-to?
Speak (13:37):
get-your-head-in-the-game type starting point.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, there might be like a thumbnail, but beyond
that, for the furniture side ofthings, object side of things,
it's for me it's kind of moresort of yeah, I'm real into
process and like letting processkind of have a have a part in
guiding your design strategy.
(14:03):
A little bit much the same withthecolo, like the little house
in Coromandel that was theexercise to do.
That was to try and build ahouse as if you were making a
pot or something, so you don'tdraw or you try to draw nothing
and then you kind of letyourself make decisions as you
go along.
So that one had a thumbnaillike maybe that big, maybe I got
(14:27):
lucky with that one.
There's a table I'm building atthe moment which is actually out
of sort of scraps as well.
The piccolo was made out of anold shed and whatever scraps I
could find laying around.
Can I ask a?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
question.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
What's the reason you called it piccolo?
Speaker 4 (14:47):
is it after, after the coffee?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
yeah, yeah, there was a cafe down in town.
My morning ritual was wascruising down to the cafe for
for a piccolo and then I'd goget to work.
So it was naturally and then itwas like a, a small cute
building, like a coffee.
Yeah, I just like thatexploration and design you're.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's the one with it, that's the one with the
curve yeah, this one yeah yeah,I love that house little target,
yeah, I was gonna say, jared,your explorative, explorative
process is very tactile likevery real as well, very built.
I guess this kind of like leansback into the craft side of
things, like it's.
It's rare that we get to kindof the piccolo is the exception.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
It's rare we get to do that with with architecture,
just due to the scale it's aterrible process for
architecture we make it up asthey go along, yeah and I come
and build a house in your house,but I'm not going to design
anything and we're just going tostart like.
You have to laugh, yeah,because it's so little and I did
it for free.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Um, you get a few more, but, but at the same time,
but at the same time, becauseyou're hands-on, you're working
it out in the process oreverything.
It's actually so incredibly wellthought out, I find, with
design, if you do it through thetraditional means or
traditional ways, because you'rekind of like taking something
(16:19):
from one medium to anothermedium, you lose nuance or you
lose kind of moment or intent.
It's quite hard maybe tocapture that something that you,
that you draw, is hard to thenreplicate in real life, and vice
versa, whereas if you're kindof like working in the medium
that you are then going to endup building in, um, I find that
to be a lot easier.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
We've talked about this before I do a lot of model
making as my initial stages.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Basically it it's just like card models, card and
paper models, but it would maybefrom time to time, but just
small, formal, like explorations, and I think through that you
can understand shape and shadowand context and stuff a lot
easier than you can even drawingon a piece of paper.
What about you, Ben?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, I guess I'm still trying to figure it out.
Obviously, you know, I did mybuilding apprenticeship and when
I was with Makers we had like abig factory and so craft was a
lot easier or playing was a loteasier, did a lot with like
timber and that sort of thingthen.
But now I feel I've kind oflost that a little bit and I'm
(17:21):
designing a little bit too muchin the digital realm.
I know what I want, but I'vegot no other kind of media to be
able to draw it out a littlebit further.
It's not that I don't have anyother meters, just I don't.
I haven't kind of tested otheroptions and so like coming over
here, and you know I sat, andwent to um Albalto's studio and
(17:43):
sat in the seat that he used todraw on, which was really
awesome.
It's like 800 mils off theground, and so it's like this
big white table, and he's astrong believer that a white
table is what you want to beable to put your cheeks down and
not get distracted or get thebest out of it.
Then it's low, so you can kindof like crouch over it and
(18:05):
there's a total immersion.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
What's the?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
material the table.
Yeah, it was just a tindertable, like a classic kind of
alto table with you know, foldedLike a melamine like a laminate
, yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Like a melamine, yeah .
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was kind of hard to tell exactly what the top was
, but it was very flat.
So I presume something simplelike that, which I'm like man.
That's such a cool idea, justlaying out big sheets of paper
and really just going for it,and then there's just big
drawing, sketches of his, andthen you can kind of see this
chain of orders just shiftingconstantly between, like design,
(18:47):
architecture, furniture, design, how it all kind of molds
together and it's just crossedover between this lighting kind
of becomes part of thearchitecture, and then so does
the furniture and it all becomesone piece of well-designed
environment, so I'm just likeI'm designing the architecture.
(19:09):
It's like I'm just designing thespace that you are there to
enjoy and then it all comestogether collectively.
I'm super inspired by that sortof thing and we've got all
these plans to go home and sortof work on those additional
craft skills a little bit more,and I don't know how that is
going to pan out for me at themoment but I guess you're just
(19:30):
going to start somewhere, and Iknow I have, like the
woodworking side already, but Iwould like something a little
bit faster.
I guess something that yougerard you you're really good at
just doing quick turnaroundstest something, see how it goes,
you know, like next iteration,next iteration.
So, yeah, that's something thatI'm really going to work on
(19:50):
over the next coming months, Ithink yeah, yeah, like what what
?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
other, I mean that's exactly what we're kind of like
trying to trying to work outbeing like what else?
what not non-architectural, ormaybe even like non-design, uh,
crafts or activities, but do youguys do anything else, that
sort of like sharpens thatdesign eye or that skill or
(20:16):
you're understanding proportion,texture, flavor, whatever.
For me I'd say that, like, mycreative outlet is cooking.
You know, yeah, and okay,there's absolutely no bearing on
the architecture that I do,really, but it gives you kind of
an understanding on, maybe,like how elements go together or
the idea of crafting a plate orsomething like that.
You know, it's all design atthe end of the day.
(20:39):
What else do you guys employ?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
to sharpen those skills that aren't necessarily
work focused yeah, I think I'veseen like a lot of people start
to test a whole bunch of things,or maybe it's just I've been
observing it more recently, butI think it can really be
anything from, like you know,trying to do your own art to
(21:01):
pottery, to even like the modelmaking like you were talking
about, to you know what Gerarddoes, the actual furniture or
lighting design.
I think it's just like anythingthat has a design an iterative
design process that makes youlike think in a certain way,
(21:26):
that is like trying to draw outwhat you're actually trying to
portray, or trying to.
Yeah, I think like it's aboutgetting like that, that stuff
out there.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I don't know how to explain it like if you were say
you're, you're going to apottery class and they say make
a plate.
You're saying you have a roughidea on how to make the plate,
but it's through the process,through making the plate, that
(21:58):
gets you there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Exactly, and you're like oh my.
God oh my God, figuring out,you know, taking that from like
a concept, something that youthink you can do to actually be
able to get it the way youwanted, I guess.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I reckon it's a culture.
I've had a couple weldingcourses where a woman who weld
welding courses which it'spretty epic to see old Sarah
Bookman at the moment getting tothe point where she's
comfortable in the workshop andcan start to really like loosely
(22:37):
design.
It's almost like it's likeseeing a sketch and I think
that's the sweet spot for me.
Anyway, in a workshop where youcan, you can actually play like
you've got the basic tools youcan know how to how to do a weld
.
You know how to chop things.
I think that that for me is islike three-dimensional sketching
.
It's this is the 3d printer andcomputer all in one.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Yeah, sketch with the the welder yeah, I mean you'll
you'll have a bit of steel yeah,yeah, yeah yeah, that's, that's
the process.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I reckon that's the sweet spot for me I think
another part of it is wanting tocreate something.
I guess this must be aninfluence from gerard, but
wanting to create something alittle bit more original.
It's hard to like.
It's hard because it it'soverwhelmingly feels like
everything's already being done,because it doesn't even matter
(23:28):
if it has been done or not.
Like coming to those set ofconclusions yourself throughout
that design process.
That's what that iterativeprocess is all about yeah,
you've.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
You've designed a hundred million chairs and
tables.
It doesn't.
It doesn't really get old, doesit?
Or?
Speaker 4 (23:48):
are you sick?
To be honest, I'd really liketo do.
Your process sounds way cooler,gerard.
Like how you sketch withmaterials.
I'm like damn.
I wish it only happened onceand that was during the lockdown
.
I don't know if there's acollection called the Bricolo
(24:10):
Collection.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Is that the little?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
galvanized.
That's the one.
Yeah, little steel.
Yeah, it's all steel and it'sgot trusses.
And there's the materials.
Yeah, it's all steel, but it'sjust flat bars, steel sheets and
steel rods.
Yeah, that's a really beautifullittle, so I love that one.
(24:33):
Thanks, man.
And it was because during thelockdown I didn't have access to
getting materials and I was abit bored, so I was like, oh
what, what can I do?
and and that was when I startedto sketch with the materials I
had on hand and, as a result, umlike iterations back to
(24:55):
initially the some of the jointswhere the flat bars are were
timber, as I wanted to use thethis, the friction of the timber
that holds the steel rodstogether, to make, um, the
trestles, because it's a trestleprofile that's applied to the
(25:17):
whole collection, and thatdidn't really work out.
So then I went with let's justdo it out of all steel, and
that's how it came out.
So I'd love to keep exploringthat, like sketching with
materials, but I'm not used toit.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I think that's a bit daunting, whereas for you,
gerard, it sounds like it'snatural for you when you talk
about it it's hard not to wantto have like a fully refined
plan in front of you before youhit that workshop floor and then
perfectly, you know what I mean.
Like it's hard to get away fromthat chain of thought, isn't it
(26:00):
?
Speaker 5 (26:01):
that's actually failing again, though yeah, yeah
, I mean it's verycounterintuitive, especially
from architecture it's like youhave to plan, execute yeah yeah,
yeah, because how would that?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
work for building a house.
I guess it'd be similar to whatyou did with the piccolo way
where you just like you startwith some framing and you stand
that up and then you findsomething else it would be a
nightmare.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
It's gonna be fun.
Don't worry about it trust me,guys.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
You said ramblin struck me off the list real
quick.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh you'd be gone just your whole work starts with a
variation and it's just that'sit, it's a variation house and
you've got to like document itas you go along.
So you start with building itand then you document it, get
that processed and then continue.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
you know it's possible Okay it doesn't apply
that well to architecture, but Ithink having this
architectural-adjacent abilityto craft or to design or to look
at things and be tactile withmateriality.
It's ultimately going to makewhat you do do as a profession
whether that be furniturewhether that be architecture,
(27:19):
whether that be design ofsomething else, it's going to
make it so much more profoundand insightful and, like, the
nuance is going to be a lotbetter, mainly because you've
gone through, you understand atleast you understand that try,
fail, play.
You know that tactile nature ofdesigning, rather than being
(27:40):
like I'm going to be perfectfrom day one and this thing's
going to be basically a robothouse, to being something that
has so much emotion involved,and you know,
Speaker 2 (27:49):
embedded in it.
You know, yeah, do you guysfeel quite constrained about,
like, the materials that are outthere, or are you still kind of
excited about discoveringdifferent uses for various
materials?
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I think um what I found for off the shelf
materials like tiling forsplashback in the kitchen.
I find those to be a little bitmore limiting in comparison to
like where you are ben, theselection must be amazing.
(28:25):
Or or even in australia there'syeah, there's like way more
tiles to select from so off theshelf materials, I feel quite
anything, but when it comes tobespoke cabinetry, I think
there's still for me personally,I always try to, I want to say,
invent a new cabinetry typologyfor each project and test new
(28:51):
details within those cabinets.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I think that's cool and, like Gerard, obviously
you've found a thousand ways touse a bit of steel, so you're
obviously still having a lot offun, you know designing with
your with you know the materialsthat you're using, which?
is great.
Sometimes I feel, I wouldn'tsay bored, but always having to
try and think of like new andexciting ways to use materials
(29:15):
out there, especially like, foryou know, in the architecture
side of things, where it'sreally hard to come up with
something that's somewhatcreative without it looking like
a thousand other buildings orsomething like that, but you
know the organic stuff that youdo, gerard, for example, is
still very unique, and probablybecause of its organic nature.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
On the note of tiles, what was that big public
building you did near the end ofhis career?
A ginormous set of buildingsthe one in.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Helsinki yeah, the theatre there Because he's got
his own tiles.
He invented the semi-curvedtiles.
That's so cool, and that's kindof what I was alluding to still
being creative and designing itdown a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah, like still being creative.
Yeah, designing it down a bit.
Yeah, I feel now most peoplejust designers for obvious
reasons of finances, most likely, yeah, stick to specified
products, whereas architectsback in the day were a lot more
willing to design a whole newtile or we're going to design
everything.
Yeah, and I just think bringingthat mind frame back as a
(30:32):
possibility will open a lot ofdoors.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
That's a great point of view.
That's good, is this?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
restricted by Romana's first comment at the
start of the pod, where it'slike it's budget constraint Are
people less willing toexperiment or to pay for that
experimentation within a project?
That's the whole conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
right the craft conversation like what is the
level of craft?
Is it a budget thing that'sdiluting the level of craft?
If we had more budget,obviously the level of craft
would be better.
Or is the level of craft, evenwe had more budget, obviously
the level of craft would bebetter.
Or is the level of craft evenwith a low budget good?
I'm like that's the question.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You just take matters into your own hands, don't you
romana?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
this is, this is the ultimate solution you guys are
the best proponents of that.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Do it yourself yeah, get it done, then done.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I mean I think you with a tight budget, yeah sure
you can maybe do the handlesthat are customized and say they
could be turned wooden handles.
Because those wouldn't be tooexpensive to, because often
cupboard handles you need 20 ofthem, because often cupboard
(31:50):
handles you need 20 of them.
So it's worth to do a batchwith a CNC lathe and there's a
few manufacturers out there inOakland anyways, that do have
that.
So yeah, depending is I'm kindof contradicting myself, I think
for all the elements.
If we take kitchen, for example, if we want all the elements of
(32:11):
the kitchen to be bespoke,including the cabinets, then yes
, if you want the craft to bespread throughout the whole room
, then yes, it comes down tobudget.
I do wanna say it's a certainbudget tier where all the
(32:31):
elements can be truly bespoke.
And then there's another tierand this is from my experience,
another tier where you could doa hybrid of customized, crafted
elements like the handles withoff the shelf cabinets for
(32:53):
example.
So I think there is space for alittle bit of craft in that
last example.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I think you hit the nail on the head there.
I think you can get goodcraftmanshipmanship even though
you're kind of repeating.
I don't think it needs to bebespoke, to be of that like
level of craft, like, forexample, manufacturing a light.
You're not going to just do aone-off.
It's still going to be awell-crafted light even though
it's kind of mass-produced.
(33:20):
Slightly I'm just trying tounderstand what what good
craftmanship would look like inarchitecture.
It's easy to say, that'swell-crafted furniture or light,
or this or that.
What is a well-crafted?
architecture Is it just goodbuild quality, or is it
well-designed and well-built, oris it fully bespoke, for
(33:40):
example?
You know what I mean.
Is it fully bespoke, forexample?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
I think it's more an understanding of the material
that you're working with or thematerials that you're working
with.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I think that's the essence of craftsmanship is an
intimate knowledge of yourmedium, and that, to me, is good
architecture.
Or really good craftedarchitecture is that, if we look
at it on a mass scale forinstance, let's take today or
ando an intimate emotionalconnection to concrete can craft
(34:15):
a building out of concrete.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
No, like better than anyone yeah and he's a master
craftsman at that material theopposite of what I was saying
before about getting bored withmaterials.
We should be going in theopposite direction.
It's really narrowing down onone material and maximising it
to its fullest potential.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's not necessarily one, but it could be a
collection of many.
Like Romain was talking about akitchen, the bespoke elements
that you could have, the handles.
There's many elements, but it'shaving that deep understanding,
emotional connection to thatmaterial, rather than just being
like I pick this claddingbecause the clients liked it.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I think this because, yes, because it's off the shelf
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
You know, like which, which we, which we're so guilty
of in architecture just cherrypicking stuff because because
it's there rather than beinglike.
I've made this decision becausethere's actual reason behind it
and this is how it's likedeveloped and that's where that
like tactility, and thatarchitecture, I think is, is the
knowledge of the knowledge ofwhat you're using to build that
(35:22):
thing.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Definitely.
I think that's just not taughtat architecture school.
You're not taught to learn andunderstand a material working
with hardwood versus a plywood,or your limitations of a
material, what you can do withit.
Because once you kind ofunderstand it then you can kind
of, in the ideal world, push itas far as you can.
(35:46):
I think lot of architecture is.
Joseph rasmus, prince fromrick's architects, said in a
lecture once that we're justcake decorators.
So you build a structure.
Yeah then you like, clad it witha color or a material.
You know, and I think that'soften the way people do, like a
kitchen or something, but Ithink something that sets your
(36:09):
kitchens apart, romano, is aclear understanding of material
and you're getting far morecreative outcomes because the
structure is dependent on thematerial.
You're not decorating cakes,yeah, thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
Yes, I do like to use materials for that practical
purpose, not just for decoration.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, exactly the two sort of meet together in a
pretty nice junction.
I think your kitchensparticularly are really pretty
in the use of steel.
Use of steel in kitchen, orlike how thin some of your
kitchen frames are, for examplethe one behind you.
Even how thin some of yourstructural frames get, I think
(36:55):
creates a real pretty kitchen.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And that comes from that understanding right.
You inherently know yourmaterial.
You know that it can achievewhat you're wanting it to do,
rather than having you know anengineer or you know a product
rep or somebody being like, oh,it has to be this big because
that's just the way thateverybody else does it.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Or you come back six months later and your shelves
are bowing.
They're all sagged, yeah, butyou know through trial and error
and play that, that's going tobe the case, and I think that's
where truly successful outcomesyou know,
Speaker 5 (37:29):
are resulting from.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, I'm just a big advocate for people learning
material.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Yeah, there's a quote I want to share from James
Dyson, the guy who inventedVacuum cleaners, not the vacuum
cleaner guy.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Yeah, he's a leader.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Yeah, he is a really good story.
He said that the visceralexperience of making things by
hand is a wise teacher.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
so in his company, um , in the uk, all the engineers
he pushes them to make all theprototyping themselves.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
They're not just like on the computer drawing, they
understand the materials.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
See, that's interesting and just kind of
been thinking about your pointgerard that you said we were
never taught at architectureschool how to understand
materials.
And then, ramana, you've talkedabout these people learning or
understanding materials, or atleast the design process in a
work environment.
I mean, we've all worked inarchitectural practice and
neither still are or doing ordoing other things now.
(38:42):
But like, did you ever get thatopportunity?
I've never really had thatopportunity to truly understand
material within practice.
Have you, or have you gone andsought that elsewhere Because
that opportunity hasn't beenafforded?
To you, for me, yeah, foreveryone, really Specifically
you and Gerard, I think, giventhat you're probably the more
(39:02):
inherent understanding of thematerials that you work with
besides Ben and I, a lot ofBen's buildings have fallen down
, so it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Well, ben, you were saying you know about
woodworking, right.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yes, I've done a lot of that.
I've kind of weirdly left it inmy tracks over the last couple
of years.
I need to bring it back.
I had ambitions for a whilethere to like like everything I
do do out of like raw kind ofmaterial, structures and kind of
more of like post and beamdesigns and that sort of thing,
and my current designs are justlike my house.
(39:38):
I built a house really similarto that and then I've lost it
over the last few years and I'vebeen meaning to bring it back
and understand what happened,why I kind of went away.
Yeah, I've lost it over thelast few years and I've been
meaning to bring it back andunderstand what happened why I
kind of went away.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
You've lost it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, I just haven't been designing like that.
I've kind of been put into moreof a forced to learn digital
development realm and I havelost that kind of bespoke kind
of stuff that I need to work on,I think.
Bring it back.
Speaker 5 (40:12):
Like that university stuff Bring it back.
Bring it back, bring it back.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Bring it back, bring it back, bring craft back and
going back to that universitystuff though gerard.
I think that it's not really upto them.
I think you've learned what youhave through your own kind of
initiatives and you've just beenlike grinding away doing your
own apprenticeship within yourown backyard.
(40:42):
That's how you've got to whereyou are, your current
understanding, and I'm sure it'sprobably the same with you,
romana.
So I think a lot of it is justhanging it upon yourself to pull
out what you think, what yourkind of like passion, or it's
like a semi-hobby to experimentand play.
(41:02):
It comes back to that play,doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, a lot of this does come down to access to
facilities.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
The more facilities.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
maybe the more play.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I'm pretty aware of that, yeah if every architecture
firm could have an adjacentworkshop like Strong Group or
something, or something you knowwould be fantastic well, you
just need one every well perevery four firms, right?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
you just need to like have your workshop in the
middle and then have like two orthree or four firms around it
and it's just a shared spaceyeah, I mean there's a lot of um
community workshops around,like the shed has now changed to
a different owner, but it'sstill a community workshop.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
I think the name is about to change.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
I don't know what about in?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Wellington are there.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I just know we've got like a local shed.
But yeah, other than that,there are community workshops,
but I don't necessarily thinkthey are necessarily woodworking
or metalworking or craftingworkshops.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but um there's a lot of
community art spaces, butequally, I think that's just as
relevant.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
You know, we're obviously we're kind of talking
more, more tangible material,necessary tangible materials,
but more like solid materials,but like pottery or even
painting or anything like.
All of these art forms have thesame impact and influence on,
on your design and in thecreative realm as, as you know,
like as this crafting that we'retalking about, which is a
(42:41):
little bit more sculptural, Iguess, do you have your own
facilities Romano.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
I do.
I'm really really lucky.
So the house we rent, lejar,has seen a fairly large basement
that's been renovated Awesome.
Yeah, it's all been slabbed andconverted that into a
woodworking and metal workshop.
It gets.
(43:08):
I mean, it's I'm happy with,like, I love that space, but it
gets filled really quickly,imagine.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
And so you just make a voice.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
You want to fill the space, you give it away, yeah it
adds up, so quickly it's crazy.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Holding me to tell him this You're like oh, that's
helpful me.
And telling me You're like oh,that's helpful.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Yeah exactly You're like oh damn it's, we're going
to use that someday.
Oh, that's long enough.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Genius from his childhood.
Genius from his landlord,though, because the the task of
moving is just so daunting,they're never gonna go anywhere,
you know.
So I'm never moving out, butit's pretty good, though you've
been doing a pretty good job ofcollecting various tools as well
.
Adrian, you've got some prettyuseful stuff in there now.
(43:57):
Yeah, just got a panel saw niceand and a planer.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I'm going to try and do some timber things.
I was thinking could youhydroform timber?
That's the next thought process.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
You could probably hydroform bamboo.
It's got the same kind oftensile strength as steel.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Well, the theory is based on if you leave water like
your timber out in the rain,it's going to warp to shit.
Yeah, maybe if you just fill itup with water water like your
timber out in the rain, it'sgonna walk to shit.
Yeah, maybe if you just fill itup with water, I don't know put
a timber box together, thinplywood or something, and then
just or even just have a sheetof ply outside with a bunch of
water on it for a week, I wonderif it would deform into a
(44:38):
hydroform it's been.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
It's been stabilizing it, though, but yeah, it's
worth testing Exactly.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
For your mum's kitchen.
Yeah yeah, for a bench top,that'd be a real good bench top.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's cool but like honestly, gerard, it's a real
pain in the ass Every time I puta carrot on my plate keeps
falling off.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
I just have a bunch of fruits in the middle.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Genius, we're coming up with a good, big idea today.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Yeah, it's like a big fruit bowl, like a bench top
and a fruit bowl.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
A whole dining table is like a bowl.
Everyone's food just ends up inthe middle like a big paella.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I was thinking more like a pig slot than that's your
next table idea, Romano.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yeah, I'm stealing that idea.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
It's actually not too bad.
Yeah, a fruit bowl Actually.
I quite like that idea.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Is it a table?
Is it a fruit bowl?
Uh, actually I quite like thatidea.
Is it a table?
Is it a fruit bowl?
Speaker 4 (45:45):
yeah, like a really nice subtle curve.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
I can see that yeah, I um, I'm always influenced by a
big fan of who's it?
Mumbai studio who like have aworkshop at their studio and
they would do one-to-onemock-ups of like.
I think often they'd do like thesection of the building, so you
(46:09):
could kind of get the Eve sortof feeling.
I love the idea of anarchitecture firm combined with
a workshop, like what?
Maybe Renzo Piano BuildingWorkshop, maybe what that was
like at the very start, or likedan holtrop's workshop, where he
just pulls concrete into dirtand lifts it up and looks at his
(46:31):
own textured panels.
A place of play, or likematerial experimentation yeah,
I'm 100 with you there.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
I'm gonna, I'm going to go out there and do it, do it
, I'm going to do it.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Yeah.
What's the reason for that tripthen?
Is it to get?
Inspired?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah, just to have a look at some good architecture.
I haven't been to theseScandinavian countries before,
so we've been traveling aroundDenmark and Sweden and then
Finland and now in Germany andthen Paris tomorrow.
So just yeah, haven't been tothem and just wanted to
experience that design culture,pick up some lights on the way
(47:14):
which I actually had asuccessful flea market win of
like some amazing lights andthere's just like you go to the
flea market, there's like louispaulson stuff here and there and
you just I don't know it's likea different quality and all of
the apartments are just so wellcrafted.
They're stunning.
So it's that and then the otherside was just like really a
(47:37):
better understanding of thatmedium density realm where it's
starting to become a thing inour country, but it's been a
thing for hundreds of years overhere and they're so well
densified, densilated,densilated.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Densilated, densilated.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Densilated.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
We'll edit that out.
We'll edit that out, that isstaying at 100 so well desolated
that and yeah, there's just somany good examples of amazing,
deep but well-designed spacesthat I just wanted to experience
pretty much, absolutely worthmy time.
(48:23):
For sure, my partner is aarchitect as well, so we have
the same interests, which makesit easier alvar alto's workshop
was actually the one of thehighlights.
It's just so well designed andit's so interesting because he
was like a big fan of italywhich was spent a lot of time in
italy and he had this designstyle, but then he went to italy
(48:46):
on his honeymoon and he cameback and he basically completely
changed his design style abouthow things are kind of merged
together a little bit moreorganically on his buildings and
you kind of see, like that, asearly designs verse like, like
you know, experiencing the spaceand then coming a little bit,
coming away with a completedifferent sense of architecture,
(49:09):
I guess so looking forward toseeing your looking forward to
seeing your design evolutionpost this trip now, ben, it
can't hurtright.
It's just like doing aniterative process.
You're actually experiencingthese spaces are the same as
experiencing those differentcreative designs or whatever.
(49:33):
So I think it's pretty.
It's been pretty insightful,for sure.
Speaker 4 (49:38):
Yeah, so his workshop , where was that?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
So it's in Helsinki and it's so cool.
From the outside it's neverreally much to look at but it's
so well designed around stuffhe'd taken from, for example,
italy or some of his travels.
He's got like an amphitheatercourtyard where, you know,
people can go and have lunch andkind of look out or do their
(50:07):
presentations outside, kind ofall sit around a semi-circle and
then just use some naturallight.
So they've got like pop-outwindows everywhere where their
dream boards used to be, and sothey have their pinups on these
like special walls that thelight is reflecting directly
onto.
And yeah, it's just, it's justamazing really.
(50:27):
And all these spaces are verylarge.
Everyone has like a good kindof workshop area essentially to
work in, as opposed to just likea one meter desk with a
computer.
You know there's a lot, so muchmore hands-on, yeah uh.
So it's kind of like so byworkshop, it's a studio with
where they work with materials,exactly, yeah, so each, each
(50:52):
person has like a uh, 20 squaremeter space, almost, maybe like
10 to 20, and they've just gotmaterials everywhere board
boards everywhere, tables um no,not so much like machines or
anything like that, probably.
But you know, like they did alot of like lighting designs and
(51:12):
, um, that testing and all oftheir tiles.
They had like the iteration ofall their tiles that they've
done over the years there andthen obviously just like your
model making and traditionalstuff, which is pretty
interesting, just a good workenvironment.
It's kind of like mixed media.
Speaker 4 (51:30):
I guess, yeah, it sounds like it's the
spaciousness that's quitedifferent from a typical
architectural studio.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, just a generous surface area to work with and
then, yeah, just a lot ofnatural light, and then he just
had like a whole bunch of stuffgoing on with what.
What's their name?
Speaker 1 (51:52):
art tech is it um?
Who did the?
Speaker 2 (51:55):
manufacturing all their furniture, which is also
so interesting, like there'slike I can't replace.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Well, that's the funny thing.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
That original, not even the original stuff, the
proper stuff isn't actuallyplywood, it's actually solid
timber and it's just likeslotted into one of the strips
yeah, okay.
But then it's like that's onlyto get forward to the bend, but
then it goes solid timber again.
So when you look at the proper,proper, the original kind of
(52:31):
chairs and whatnot that you canstill buy today, the quality and
the craftsmanship is just like10 times better than the ikea
ripoffs and that was kind oflike designed for.
You know, like there's some ofit was designed for like the
hospitals and that sort of thingfor like higher end stuff right
down to like the layperson whocan, you know, have some of
those stools?
But it was meant to be likerelatively affordable,
(52:53):
well-designed, well-craftedfurniture, and then the lighting
as well, which is prettyimpressive.
So that was definitely, yeah,yeah, the highlight of the trip
romana.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
Are you you're still making like all your furniture
in-house, or are you getting tothe point where some of that's
getting outsourced for?
Speaker 4 (53:13):
the furniture.
It's semi-outsourced, so I'lldo the laminations.
I mean it's very basicwoodworking.
I'll do the lamination in-house.
And then I've got a friend whoowns a CNC router I said it to
(53:39):
him who I think he would havebeen perfect to include in this
conversation.
His background is inarchitecture Alistair Munro is
his name, so he has a CNC and hewraps the laminated planks,
then comes back.
I sent it off, then send it tothe polishers and then they
(54:05):
spread with polyurethane.
Awesome, so I do.
I do that in-house,semi-in-house, and then the
metal work I work with localmanufacturers in.
They're based in henderson andtheir, their workshop, um yeah,
it's very built for highervolume production then it's and
(54:28):
it's interesting to get to visitand see how they operate versus
a workshop like um, like athat's designed for bespoke
pieces, like one-off elements,very different models and the
way they're set up.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
Yeah so More linear.
Romano, did you find that kindof liberating, starting to
outsource, because I think whenI came and visited you that was
quite a few years ago now, but Ithink you had a jig for your
stools, like the ones that areat mr goes.
I think I think you were juststarting to like nail out how to
weld those together as fast asyou could yeah, yes, it
(55:14):
definitely was.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Um, I mean, it's always been a goal to get high
volume orders and be able tooutsource the production Because
from a business point of viewit's viable.
I want to say it's easy money.
Yeah, if your margins are right, you hit the right markets and
(55:39):
you've got a product they likethen just press play with the
manufacturers and see you in amonth.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely yeah, and that
professional comes back perfectevery time.
Well, you know exactly it's thelevel of finish is generally
pretty awesome.
Yeah it is.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
Yeah, I'm like they have way better than my welds,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
I feel like a fraud sometimes.
Like you know, I do all thiswelding but as soon as like an
actual welder, I got a friendwho works at a large industrial
workshop in Poriru and just himand the guys he works with, like
their actual skills, theiractual technical fabrication
skills are just like moons aheadof where.
(56:31):
Where I will ever be.
Yeah, you're always like yeah,like we can't kid ourselves,
we're not like actual megacraftsmen, like we're.
I'm a fraud in the industry.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Really I'm using it as a design tool at least you're
not playing at all yeah, not afraud at all.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
No, no, yeah, exactly .
Speaker 3 (56:55):
You're not at all, though, because these guys that
do are amazing, like it'sincredible what, how good you
can be if you're like weldingall day I know it's insane, like
how?
Speaker 4 (57:07):
uh?
They're like oh, if I weld it,if I do these stacks here, the,
the steel is going to move thatway.
It's yeah, it's prettyincredible their understanding
of the material yeah, anyone canweld.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
But can you weld something square?
Speaker 4 (57:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's a whole other game.
That's why you've got ahydroforming HR.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
you don't have to worry about squares anymore.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah, Generally makes it a lot easier.
It's been awesome.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Loving the check craft.
Speaker 4 (57:41):
Yeah, it was really fun.
Speaker 3 (57:45):
Loving your work.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, keep, keep, keep buildingcool stuff if you want to hang
out at the workshop.
Speaker 4 (57:51):
Come and come and visit I do.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I'll be hitting you up as soon as I get home I mean
I don't want to set yourexpectation.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
It's a very small workshop.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
That's fine, that's fine.
This week's episode is brought to you by Paradog.
Try their Albi and limitedrelease.
Fresh up beers this month forthe tastiest drops straight off
the vine.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Nice.
Welcome back to the DesignPrinciples podcast.
Today's episode we're chattingabout craft, exploring the
importance of craftsmanship, howit informs thoughtful design
principles and its role increating meaningful spaces in
our built environment.
Joining us for thisconversation is Romana Jones
from Italia, jones Design.
(00:29):
Romana shares valuable insightsand personal experiences drawn
from years of exploring, playingand refining his design
processes.
So we hope you enjoy thisconversation, romana, and please
don't forget to like andsubscribe.
(01:00):
I guess the basis of this chatwas, you know, for those who
listened to the last episodeanyway, you know that I'm
travelling around Europe at themoment getting to see some
amazing architecture and it'spretty easy to see, like a lot
of those old school architects,like Alvar Aalto and Walter
(01:21):
Gropius and Luca Buzia, any ofthose guys they, they all kind
of got this thing where they'velike extended their architecture
to not only just the design ofa building but the craft of
lighting, or lighting design orfurniture design, which is kind
of similar to your art.
And so, yeah, just reallywanted to talk about how that
(01:44):
craft can kind of cross a lot ofdifferent media and how that
can kind of help to, you know,to shape that design process or
refine that design process andbe useful within that
architecture realm as well.
That was kind of the thoughtsbehind the chat today.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Yeah, you, roman obviously jumped into my mind
pretty quickly as somebody who'svery involved in the
fabrication making side, so Iimagine the feedback loop within
your own work it's pretty heavyfrom making to designing,
making, designing, yeah yeah,like how, um how to integrate
(02:26):
craft in more architecturalprojects and interior design
schemes?
Speaker 5 (02:33):
like how can you?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
yeah, design at the level of a door handle or a
light fixture, for example andthen just like, even like a
little bit before that, likecraft itself and how important
that is and is it still?
Are we still crafting, I guess,in a way that we used to craft,
if that even makes sense and ifand what is?
Speaker 1 (02:58):
craft and if not, or or if we are, what impact is
that having on?
Like the design product,everything kind of world, that
tangible interaction, is thatbeing lost and is therefore all
the stuff around us?
Is that being affected?
I guess these are pretty bigquestions.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
It's a pretty big topic, but I think there's a lot
of.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
For me it's probably not the answer people want to
hear, but it really depends onthe budget, like if the budget
allows to go down towards thosefine details, designing those
detailed and crafted elements.
I think it comes down to that,and also back then well, alvar
(03:51):
Aalto's era, I think, and alsothe country there's.
It's in the culture that is.
Those is a craft.
A craft culture is way more, uh, you know, artisanal businesses
that are passed on fromgeneration to generation.
Speaker 5 (04:13):
It's interesting you say that lisa in our episode
with her very briefly touched onit, but I it kind of resonated
with me and I think with a, witha few other people as well.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
She was sort of saying how she was chatting with
a friend who was brought up inportugal and they were taught
design appreciation at school orart appreciation at school and
I think like that interactionwas let's just call them
beautiful things.
Speaker 5 (04:38):
You know, isn't?
Speaker 1 (04:38):
necessarily taught as much specifically in new
zealand as it is it maybe asinternationally.
Maybe that's where the peopleseeking craft or well-crafted
things.
Maybe it's a little less here,yeah that's a really interesting
point.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
It also reminds me of I used to take woodworking
classes from this older guy.
He looked like he was in his80s and he was trained.
He's one of the old schoolwoodworker and he trained with I
can't remember the name of.
He's a well-known woodworker inNew Zealand and he founded he's
(05:18):
one of the founders of theNelson School of Woodworking.
So he trained with that guy andhe was telling me exactly that
that in or he told mespecifically in England, women
are used to be trained toappreciate crafted, well-crafted
(05:41):
things.
So I think I think there's alsothat.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, I think in architecture school when we were
going through, we were probablyon like the tail end of uh, the
the last remaining slither of,probably, workshop culture.
I think just after we left,they started removing the
metalwork room and downsizingand fitting in more robots and
(06:07):
3D printers.
There wasn't a huge push for it,but there was the space for it
and I taught for a semester andwe're talking about this today
with some ex-MASI woodwork who'srunning part of the woodwork
workshop and just how nostudents are really pushed into
(06:29):
that space anymore, like unless,like you absolutely have to.
It's not really part of thedesign process.
I tried to push people into theworkshop.
I made them do a workshop day,a sewing day, like I brought
clay in another day and I thinkjust trying to introduce people
to different materials.
I think people respond todifferent materials like or find
(06:52):
one that you really relate toand become a potter, who knows?
But I think just play, there'sjust lowering the threshold.
You don't have to go out and bea master potter on the first
day.
I think just reintroducing playinto things, just the act of
(07:12):
making, is, I think, prettybeneficial to design, do you
think?
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Gerard, that you mentioned a play and you're not
going to become a master potteron the first day, do you think?
Speaker 5 (07:28):
The like, shifting maybe level of patience or
attention span, of like themoving generations if we go back
like we were just talking about.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Alvar Atoll, you know these older generations.
They had more time, seemingly,in their day-to-day life.
Maybe not, maybe we're justbeing naive.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Versus the modern modern day TikTok generation.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
You even think about people going through
architecture school now youngerthan us like.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
They want results now right.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So do you think that that shift to the more robotic,
the less playful kind of like Iwant a final solution and I want
it now, type mentality hasresulted in that change in focus
of the schools and of theeducation?
Or do you think that that wasjust it was going to happen
regardless?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
it's certainly a compelling argument.
I don't know.
You design on a computer andyou want to see it immediately
like rather than like I'm in mywork.
Anyway, I'm big about likediscovery, so trying not to draw
too much.
So while you're making you'rekind of designing at the same
time so you can stumble intothings or let process drive you
(08:30):
a little bit.
Romano, how do you find you'redesigning some of your furniture
pieces?
Do you work purely sketchingfirst before you start making?
Speaker 5 (08:44):
Yeah mainly sketching We'll be sketching like a lot
of different iterations.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Yeah, then modeling and then making and prototyping,
and then.
Digital modeling yeah, digitalmodeling, not fashion, modeling,
fashion.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
I'll just make a dress.
Speaker 4 (09:09):
Make a dress and do a runway, I will model it.
Then I would prototype itprototype things in the workshop
and then I'll go back tosketching and modeling and
refine it.
It will be tech, tech, tech.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Yeah, that will be the usual process do you find
that the process for sort ofdesigning a space is your?
You know, your process fordesigning a space is kind of
similar to designing like apiece of furniture, for example,
or, um, you know, do you usethe the same sort of kind of, or
is there any overlap there oranything?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
That's a good question One.
They're different and similar,so one similar thing that I like
to do personally is I like todraw on isometric.
I like to do isometric drawings, so I would create a base on
whether it's furniture or aspace.
Speaker 5 (10:07):
so in the case of well, let's say furniture, for
example a stool I would modelthe stool roughly like just a
footprint, say as a extruded box, and then then I would sketch
over it just to get the theproportions right then for a
Speaker 4 (10:29):
space.
It says a kitchen.
I'll just get the volume of thekitchen, I'll cut out two walls
so I can see through, and thenI would model the base cabinet.
You know how?
Uh, yeah, kitchens 600 deep,900 high, so I would model those
and then I would draw over it.
(10:52):
So it's so similar in that way.
Um, but it's it's different inscope because I'd like to think
when you design a space, there'sway more to design really.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
I saw some of your.
You've got some of thosedrawings on your website.
I thought they were really,really.
I guess I had a lot ofinformation in them, so I can
see how it would be such auseful design tool for you.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, the one on your design services where there's
like everything in their plates.
Yeah, it's great.
Little baskets, aprons.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Oh cheers.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
That's an epic drawing.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Yeah, I think the key with drawing.
Speaker 4 (11:38):
For me it's to be loose, to kind of not be
precious about it, especially atthe concept stage, to really
yeah, really be explorative.
It's okay if you, if your linesare.
Speaker 5 (11:54):
I'm not going to be straight so you just I think
it's important to build layersupon layers upon layers and not
be afraid to just draw.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
It's that concept of play again right, yes, exactly.
Where does that sketch first orthat draw first mentality for
you come from?
I look at a lot of my peers orour peers, and particularly
younger people coming throughlike they're quite afraid of
putting pen to paper and a lotof the time.
I think it is maybe notnecessarily a fear, but it's
(12:30):
like you want the drawing tolook perfect or look right or
work, you know and so you kindof have that fear of the line
not being in the right place orwhat have you?
But you learn so much from thatplay process.
Speaker 5 (12:43):
Where does that kind of draw first?
Speaker 1 (12:45):
mentality for you come from.
I think it's just a habit.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
I took yeah, it came from when I was a little kid
always liked to draw and it goesback to play.
I think that was for me beingplayful, it was just drawing,
drawing, drawing and yeah, and Ialways stuck to drawing through
(13:09):
through high school, throughuni and that um isometric
process that I described.
Uh, I did that, yeah,throughout all my uni years.
So it's it's so it's just ahabit.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
I like that you could build your style of design
approach.
What about you, Gerard and Ben?
What do you guys?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
do first.
What's your kind of like go-to?
Speak (13:37):
get-your-head-in-the-game type starting point.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Yeah, there might be like a thumbnail, but beyond
that, for the furniture side ofthings, object side of things,
it's for me it's kind of moresort of yeah, I'm real into
process and like letting processkind of have a have a part in
guiding your design strategy.
(14:03):
A little bit much the same withthecolo, like the little house
in Coromandel that was theexercise to do.
That was to try and build ahouse as if you were making a
pot or something, so you don'tdraw or you try to draw nothing
and then you kind of letyourself make decisions as you
go along.
So that one had a thumbnaillike maybe that big, maybe I got
(14:27):
lucky with that one.
There's a table I'm building atthe moment which is actually out
of sort of scraps as well.
The piccolo was made out of anold shed and whatever scraps I
could find laying around.
Can I ask a?
Speaker 4 (14:41):
question.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
What's the reason you called it piccolo?
Speaker 4 (14:47):
is it after, after the coffee?
Speaker 3 (14:49):
yeah, yeah, there was a cafe down in town.
My morning ritual was wascruising down to the cafe for
for a piccolo and then I'd goget to work.
So it was naturally and then itwas like a, a small cute
building, like a coffee.
Yeah, I just like thatexploration and design you're.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
That's the one with it, that's the one with the
curve yeah, this one yeah yeah,I love that house little target,
yeah, I was gonna say, jared,your explorative, explorative
process is very tactile likevery real as well, very built.
I guess this kind of like leansback into the craft side of
things, like it's.
It's rare that we get to kindof the piccolo is the exception.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
It's rare we get to do that with with architecture,
just due to the scale it's aterrible process for
architecture we make it up asthey go along, yeah and I come
and build a house in your house,but I'm not going to design
anything and we're just going tostart like.
You have to laugh, yeah,because it's so little and I did
it for free.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
Um, you get a few more, but, but at the same time,
but at the same time, becauseyou're hands-on, you're working
it out in the process oreverything.
It's actually so incredibly wellthought out, I find, with
design, if you do it through thetraditional means or
traditional ways, because you'rekind of like taking something
(16:19):
from one medium to anothermedium, you lose nuance or you
lose kind of moment or intent.
It's quite hard maybe tocapture that something that you,
that you draw, is hard to thenreplicate in real life, and vice
versa, whereas if you're kindof like working in the medium
that you are then going to endup building in, um, I find that
to be a lot easier.
Speaker 5 (16:40):
We've talked about this before I do a lot of model
making as my initial stages.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Basically it it's just like card models, card and
paper models, but it would maybefrom time to time, but just
small, formal, like explorations, and I think through that you
can understand shape and shadowand context and stuff a lot
easier than you can even drawingon a piece of paper.
What about you, Ben?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, I guess I'm still trying to figure it out.
Obviously, you know, I did mybuilding apprenticeship and when
I was with Makers we had like abig factory and so craft was a
lot easier or playing was a loteasier, did a lot with like
timber and that sort of thingthen.
But now I feel I've kind oflost that a little bit and I'm
(17:21):
designing a little bit too muchin the digital realm.
I know what I want, but I'vegot no other kind of media to be
able to draw it out a littlebit further.
It's not that I don't have anyother meters, just I don't.
I haven't kind of tested otheroptions and so like coming over
here, and you know I sat, andwent to um Albalto's studio and
(17:43):
sat in the seat that he used todraw on, which was really
awesome.
It's like 800 mils off theground, and so it's like this
big white table, and he's astrong believer that a white
table is what you want to beable to put your cheeks down and
not get distracted or get thebest out of it.
Then it's low, so you can kindof like crouch over it and
(18:05):
there's a total immersion.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
What's the?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
material the table.
Yeah, it was just a tindertable, like a classic kind of
alto table with you know, foldedLike a melamine like a laminate
, yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
Like a melamine, yeah .
Speaker 2 (18:24):
It was kind of hard to tell exactly what the top was
, but it was very flat.
So I presume something simplelike that, which I'm like man.
That's such a cool idea, justlaying out big sheets of paper
and really just going for it,and then there's just big
drawing, sketches of his, andthen you can kind of see this
chain of orders just shiftingconstantly between, like design,
(18:47):
architecture, furniture, design, how it all kind of molds
together and it's just crossedover between this lighting kind
of becomes part of thearchitecture, and then so does
the furniture and it all becomesone piece of well-designed
environment, so I'm just likeI'm designing the architecture.
(19:09):
It's like I'm just designing thespace that you are there to
enjoy and then it all comestogether collectively.
I'm super inspired by that sortof thing and we've got all
these plans to go home and sortof work on those additional
craft skills a little bit more,and I don't know how that is
going to pan out for me at themoment but I guess you're just
(19:30):
going to start somewhere, and Iknow I have, like the
woodworking side already, but Iwould like something a little
bit faster.
I guess something that yougerard you you're really good at
just doing quick turnaroundstest something, see how it goes,
you know, like next iteration,next iteration.
So, yeah, that's something thatI'm really going to work on
(19:50):
over the next coming months, Ithink yeah, yeah, like what what
?
Speaker 1 (19:54):
other, I mean that's exactly what we're kind of like
trying to trying to work outbeing like what else?
what not non-architectural, ormaybe even like non-design, uh,
crafts or activities, but do youguys do anything else, that
sort of like sharpens thatdesign eye or that skill or
(20:16):
you're understanding proportion,texture, flavor, whatever.
For me I'd say that, like, mycreative outlet is cooking.
You know, yeah, and okay,there's absolutely no bearing on
the architecture that I do,really, but it gives you kind of
an understanding on, maybe,like how elements go together or
the idea of crafting a plate orsomething like that.
You know, it's all design atthe end of the day.
(20:39):
What else do you guys employ?
Speaker 2 (20:41):
to sharpen those skills that aren't necessarily
work focused yeah, I think I'veseen like a lot of people start
to test a whole bunch of things,or maybe it's just I've been
observing it more recently, butI think it can really be
anything from, like you know,trying to do your own art to
(21:01):
pottery, to even like the modelmaking like you were talking
about, to you know what Gerarddoes, the actual furniture or
lighting design.
I think it's just like anythingthat has a design an iterative
design process that makes youlike think in a certain way,
(21:26):
that is like trying to draw outwhat you're actually trying to
portray, or trying to.
Yeah, I think like it's aboutgetting like that, that stuff
out there.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
I don't know how to explain it like if you were say
you're, you're going to apottery class and they say make
a plate.
You're saying you have a roughidea on how to make the plate,
but it's through the process,through making the plate, that
(21:58):
gets you there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Exactly, and you're like oh my.
God oh my God, figuring out,you know, taking that from like
a concept, something that youthink you can do to actually be
able to get it the way youwanted, I guess.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
I reckon it's a culture.
I've had a couple weldingcourses where a woman who weld
welding courses which it'spretty epic to see old Sarah
Bookman at the moment getting tothe point where she's
comfortable in the workshop andcan start to really like loosely
(22:37):
design.
It's almost like it's likeseeing a sketch and I think
that's the sweet spot for me.
Anyway, in a workshop where youcan, you can actually play like
you've got the basic tools youcan know how to how to do a weld
.
You know how to chop things.
I think that that for me is islike three-dimensional sketching
.
It's this is the 3d printer andcomputer all in one.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
Yeah, sketch with the the welder yeah, I mean you'll
you'll have a bit of steel yeah,yeah, yeah yeah, that's, that's
the process.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
I reckon that's the sweet spot for me I think
another part of it is wanting tocreate something.
I guess this must be aninfluence from gerard, but
wanting to create something alittle bit more original.
It's hard to like.
It's hard because it it'soverwhelmingly feels like
everything's already being done,because it doesn't even matter
(23:28):
if it has been done or not.
Like coming to those set ofconclusions yourself throughout
that design process.
That's what that iterativeprocess is all about yeah,
you've.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
You've designed a hundred million chairs and
tables.
It doesn't.
It doesn't really get old, doesit?
Or?
Speaker 4 (23:48):
are you sick?
To be honest, I'd really liketo do.
Your process sounds way cooler,gerard.
Like how you sketch withmaterials.
I'm like damn.
I wish it only happened onceand that was during the lockdown
.
I don't know if there's acollection called the Bricolo
(24:10):
Collection.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Is that the little?
Speaker 4 (24:12):
galvanized.
That's the one.
Yeah, little steel.
Yeah, it's all steel and it'sgot trusses.
And there's the materials.
Yeah, it's all steel, but it'sjust flat bars, steel sheets and
steel rods.
Yeah, that's a really beautifullittle, so I love that one.
(24:33):
Thanks, man.
And it was because during thelockdown I didn't have access to
getting materials and I was abit bored, so I was like, oh
what, what can I do?
and and that was when I startedto sketch with the materials I
had on hand and, as a result, umlike iterations back to
(24:55):
initially the some of the jointswhere the flat bars are were
timber, as I wanted to use thethis, the friction of the timber
that holds the steel rodstogether, to make, um, the
trestles, because it's a trestleprofile that's applied to the
(25:17):
whole collection, and thatdidn't really work out.
So then I went with let's justdo it out of all steel, and
that's how it came out.
So I'd love to keep exploringthat, like sketching with
materials, but I'm not used toit.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I think that's a bit daunting, whereas for you,
gerard, it sounds like it'snatural for you when you talk
about it it's hard not to wantto have like a fully refined
plan in front of you before youhit that workshop floor and then
perfectly, you know what I mean.
Like it's hard to get away fromthat chain of thought, isn't it
(26:00):
?
Speaker 5 (26:01):
that's actually failing again, though yeah, yeah
, I mean it's verycounterintuitive, especially
from architecture it's like youhave to plan, execute yeah yeah,
yeah, because how would that?
Speaker 2 (26:14):
work for building a house.
I guess it'd be similar to whatyou did with the piccolo way
where you just like you startwith some framing and you stand
that up and then you findsomething else it would be a
nightmare.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
It's gonna be fun.
Don't worry about it trust me,guys.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
You said ramblin struck me off the list real
quick.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh you'd be gone just your whole work starts with a
variation and it's just that'sit, it's a variation house and
you've got to like document itas you go along.
So you start with building itand then you document it, get
that processed and then continue.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
you know it's possible Okay it doesn't apply
that well to architecture, but Ithink having this
architectural-adjacent abilityto craft or to design or to look
at things and be tactile withmateriality.
It's ultimately going to makewhat you do do as a profession
whether that be furniturewhether that be architecture,
(27:19):
whether that be design ofsomething else, it's going to
make it so much more profoundand insightful and, like, the
nuance is going to be a lotbetter, mainly because you've
gone through, you understand atleast you understand that try,
fail, play.
You know that tactile nature ofdesigning, rather than being
(27:40):
like I'm going to be perfectfrom day one and this thing's
going to be basically a robothouse, to being something that
has so much emotion involved,and you know,
Speaker 2 (27:49):
embedded in it.
You know, yeah, do you guysfeel quite constrained about,
like, the materials that are outthere, or are you still kind of
excited about discoveringdifferent uses for various
materials?
Speaker 4 (28:03):
I think um what I found for off the shelf
materials like tiling forsplashback in the kitchen.
I find those to be a little bitmore limiting in comparison to
like where you are ben, theselection must be amazing.
(28:25):
Or or even in australia there'syeah, there's like way more
tiles to select from so off theshelf materials, I feel quite
anything, but when it comes tobespoke cabinetry, I think
there's still for me personally,I always try to, I want to say,
invent a new cabinetry typologyfor each project and test new
(28:51):
details within those cabinets.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
I think that's cool and, like Gerard, obviously
you've found a thousand ways touse a bit of steel, so you're
obviously still having a lot offun, you know designing with
your with you know the materialsthat you're using, which?
is great.
Sometimes I feel, I wouldn'tsay bored, but always having to
try and think of like new andexciting ways to use materials
(29:15):
out there, especially like, foryou know, in the architecture
side of things, where it'sreally hard to come up with
something that's somewhatcreative without it looking like
a thousand other buildings orsomething like that, but you
know the organic stuff that youdo, gerard, for example, is
still very unique, and probablybecause of its organic nature.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
On the note of tiles, what was that big public
building you did near the end ofhis career?
A ginormous set of buildingsthe one in.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Helsinki yeah, the theatre there Because he's got
his own tiles.
He invented the semi-curvedtiles.
That's so cool, and that's kindof what I was alluding to still
being creative and designing itdown a bit.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
Yeah, like still being creative.
Yeah, designing it down a bit.
Yeah, I feel now most peoplejust designers for obvious
reasons of finances, most likely, yeah, stick to specified
products, whereas architectsback in the day were a lot more
willing to design a whole newtile or we're going to design
everything.
Yeah, and I just think bringingthat mind frame back as a
(30:32):
possibility will open a lot ofdoors.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
That's a great point of view.
That's good, is this?
Speaker 1 (30:40):
restricted by Romana's first comment at the
start of the pod, where it'slike it's budget constraint Are
people less willing toexperiment or to pay for that
experimentation within a project?
That's the whole conversation.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
right the craft conversation like what is the
level of craft?
Is it a budget thing that'sdiluting the level of craft?
If we had more budget,obviously the level of craft
would be better.
Or is the level of craft, evenwe had more budget, obviously
the level of craft would bebetter.
Or is the level of craft evenwith a low budget good?
I'm like that's the question.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
You just take matters into your own hands, don't you
romana?
Speaker 1 (31:14):
this is, this is the ultimate solution you guys are
the best proponents of that.
Speaker 5 (31:19):
Do it yourself yeah, get it done, then done.
Speaker 4 (31:23):
I mean I think you with a tight budget, yeah sure
you can maybe do the handlesthat are customized and say they
could be turned wooden handles.
Because those wouldn't be tooexpensive to, because often
cupboard handles you need 20 ofthem, because often cupboard
(31:50):
handles you need 20 of them.
So it's worth to do a batchwith a CNC lathe and there's a
few manufacturers out there inOakland anyways, that do have
that.
So yeah, depending is I'm kindof contradicting myself, I think
for all the elements.
If we take kitchen, for example, if we want all the elements of
(32:11):
the kitchen to be bespoke,including the cabinets, then yes
, if you want the craft to bespread throughout the whole room
, then yes, it comes down tobudget.
I do wanna say it's a certainbudget tier where all the
(32:31):
elements can be truly bespoke.
And then there's another tierand this is from my experience,
another tier where you could doa hybrid of customized, crafted
elements like the handles withoff the shelf cabinets for
(32:53):
example.
So I think there is space for alittle bit of craft in that
last example.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I think you hit the nail on the head there.
I think you can get goodcraftmanshipmanship even though
you're kind of repeating.
I don't think it needs to bebespoke, to be of that like
level of craft, like, forexample, manufacturing a light.
You're not going to just do aone-off.
It's still going to be awell-crafted light even though
it's kind of mass-produced.
(33:20):
Slightly I'm just trying tounderstand what what good
craftmanship would look like inarchitecture.
It's easy to say, that'swell-crafted furniture or light,
or this or that.
What is a well-crafted?
architecture Is it just goodbuild quality, or is it
well-designed and well-built, oris it fully bespoke, for
(33:40):
example?
You know what I mean.
Is it fully bespoke, forexample?
Speaker 1 (33:45):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (33:49):
I think it's more an understanding of the material
that you're working with or thematerials that you're working
with.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
I think that's the essence of craftsmanship is an
intimate knowledge of yourmedium, and that, to me, is good
architecture.
Or really good craftedarchitecture is that, if we look
at it on a mass scale forinstance, let's take today or
ando an intimate emotionalconnection to concrete can craft
(34:15):
a building out of concrete.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
No, like better than anyone yeah and he's a master
craftsman at that material theopposite of what I was saying
before about getting bored withmaterials.
We should be going in theopposite direction.
It's really narrowing down onone material and maximising it
to its fullest potential.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
It's not necessarily one, but it could be a
collection of many.
Like Romain was talking about akitchen, the bespoke elements
that you could have, the handles.
There's many elements, but it'shaving that deep understanding,
emotional connection to thatmaterial, rather than just being
like I pick this claddingbecause the clients liked it.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
I think this because, yes, because it's off the shelf
.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
You know, like which, which we, which we're so guilty
of in architecture just cherrypicking stuff because because
it's there rather than beinglike.
I've made this decision becausethere's actual reason behind it
and this is how it's likedeveloped and that's where that
like tactility, and thatarchitecture, I think is, is the
knowledge of the knowledge ofwhat you're using to build that
(35:22):
thing.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
Definitely.
I think that's just not taughtat architecture school.
You're not taught to learn andunderstand a material working
with hardwood versus a plywood,or your limitations of a
material, what you can do withit.
Because once you kind ofunderstand it then you can kind
of, in the ideal world, push itas far as you can.
(35:46):
I think lot of architecture is.
Joseph rasmus, prince fromrick's architects, said in a
lecture once that we're justcake decorators.
So you build a structure.
Yeah then you like, clad it witha color or a material.
You know, and I think that'soften the way people do, like a
kitchen or something, but Ithink something that sets your
(36:09):
kitchens apart, romano, is aclear understanding of material
and you're getting far morecreative outcomes because the
structure is dependent on thematerial.
You're not decorating cakes,yeah, thanks.
Speaker 4 (36:22):
Yes, I do like to use materials for that practical
purpose, not just for decoration.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Yeah, exactly the two sort of meet together in a
pretty nice junction.
I think your kitchensparticularly are really pretty
in the use of steel.
Use of steel in kitchen, orlike how thin some of your
kitchen frames are, for examplethe one behind you.
Even how thin some of yourstructural frames get, I think
(36:55):
creates a real pretty kitchen.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And that comes from that understanding right.
You inherently know yourmaterial.
You know that it can achievewhat you're wanting it to do,
rather than having you know anengineer or you know a product
rep or somebody being like, oh,it has to be this big because
that's just the way thateverybody else does it.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Or you come back six months later and your shelves
are bowing.
They're all sagged, yeah, butyou know through trial and error
and play that, that's going tobe the case, and I think that's
where truly successful outcomesyou know,
Speaker 5 (37:29):
are resulting from.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Yeah, I'm just a big advocate for people learning
material.
Speaker 4 (37:36):
Yeah, there's a quote I want to share from James
Dyson, the guy who inventedVacuum cleaners, not the vacuum
cleaner guy.
Speaker 3 (37:47):
Yeah, he's a leader.
Speaker 4 (37:49):
Yeah, he is a really good story.
He said that the visceralexperience of making things by
hand is a wise teacher.
Speaker 5 (38:12):
so in his company, um , in the uk, all the engineers
he pushes them to make all theprototyping themselves.
Speaker 4 (38:15):
They're not just like on the computer drawing, they
understand the materials.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
See, that's interesting and just kind of
been thinking about your pointgerard that you said we were
never taught at architectureschool how to understand
materials.
And then, ramana, you've talkedabout these people learning or
understanding materials, or atleast the design process in a
work environment.
I mean, we've all worked inarchitectural practice and
neither still are or doing ordoing other things now.
(38:42):
But like, did you ever get thatopportunity?
I've never really had thatopportunity to truly understand
material within practice.
Have you, or have you gone andsought that elsewhere Because
that opportunity hasn't beenafforded?
To you, for me, yeah, foreveryone, really Specifically
you and Gerard, I think, giventhat you're probably the more
(39:02):
inherent understanding of thematerials that you work with
besides Ben and I, a lot ofBen's buildings have fallen down
, so it's pretty interesting.
Speaker 4 (39:12):
Well, ben, you were saying you know about
woodworking, right.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Yes, I've done a lot of that.
I've kind of weirdly left it inmy tracks over the last couple
of years.
I need to bring it back.
I had ambitions for a whilethere to like like everything I
do do out of like raw kind ofmaterial, structures and kind of
more of like post and beamdesigns and that sort of thing,
and my current designs are justlike my house.
(39:38):
I built a house really similarto that and then I've lost it
over the last few years and I'vebeen meaning to bring it back
and understand what happened,why I kind of went away.
Yeah, I've lost it over thelast few years and I've been
meaning to bring it back andunderstand what happened why I
kind of went away.
Speaker 5 (39:49):
You've lost it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
Well, I just haven't been designing like that.
I've kind of been put into moreof a forced to learn digital
development realm and I havelost that kind of bespoke kind
of stuff that I need to work on,I think.
Bring it back.
Speaker 5 (40:12):
Like that university stuff Bring it back.
Bring it back, bring it back.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Bring it back, bring it back, bring craft back and
going back to that universitystuff though gerard.
I think that it's not really upto them.
I think you've learned what youhave through your own kind of
initiatives and you've just beenlike grinding away doing your
own apprenticeship within yourown backyard.
(40:42):
That's how you've got to whereyou are, your current
understanding, and I'm sure it'sprobably the same with you,
romana.
So I think a lot of it is justhanging it upon yourself to pull
out what you think, what yourkind of like passion, or it's
like a semi-hobby to experimentand play.
(41:02):
It comes back to that play,doesn't it?
Speaker 3 (41:07):
Yeah, a lot of this does come down to access to
facilities.
Speaker 5 (41:12):
The more facilities.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
maybe the more play.
Speaker 1 (41:16):
I'm pretty aware of that, yeah if every architecture
firm could have an adjacentworkshop like Strong Group or
something, or something you knowwould be fantastic well, you
just need one every well perevery four firms, right?
Speaker 2 (41:31):
you just need to like have your workshop in the
middle and then have like two orthree or four firms around it
and it's just a shared spaceyeah, I mean there's a lot of um
community workshops around,like the shed has now changed to
a different owner, but it'sstill a community workshop.
Speaker 4 (41:54):
I think the name is about to change.
Speaker 5 (41:56):
I don't know what about in?
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Wellington are there.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
I just know we've got like a local shed.
But yeah, other than that,there are community workshops,
but I don't necessarily thinkthey are necessarily woodworking
or metalworking or craftingworkshops.
Speaker 5 (42:14):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but um there's a lot of
community art spaces, butequally, I think that's just as
relevant.
Speaker 1 (42:21):
You know, we're obviously we're kind of talking
more, more tangible material,necessary tangible materials,
but more like solid materials,but like pottery or even
painting or anything like.
All of these art forms have thesame impact and influence on,
on your design and in thecreative realm as, as you know,
like as this crafting that we'retalking about, which is a
(42:41):
little bit more sculptural, Iguess, do you have your own
facilities Romano.
Speaker 4 (42:47):
I do.
I'm really really lucky.
So the house we rent, lejar,has seen a fairly large basement
that's been renovated Awesome.
Yeah, it's all been slabbed andconverted that into a
woodworking and metal workshop.
It gets.
(43:08):
I mean, it's I'm happy with,like, I love that space, but it
gets filled really quickly,imagine.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
And so you just make a voice.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
You want to fill the space, you give it away, yeah it
adds up, so quickly it's crazy.
Speaker 5 (43:23):
Holding me to tell him this You're like oh, that's
helpful me.
And telling me You're like oh,that's helpful.
Speaker 4 (43:28):
Yeah exactly You're like oh damn it's, we're going
to use that someday.
Oh, that's long enough.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Genius from his childhood.
Genius from his landlord,though, because the the task of
moving is just so daunting,they're never gonna go anywhere,
you know.
So I'm never moving out, butit's pretty good, though you've
been doing a pretty good job ofcollecting various tools as well
.
Adrian, you've got some prettyuseful stuff in there now.
(43:57):
Yeah, just got a panel saw niceand and a planer.
Speaker 3 (44:01):
I'm going to try and do some timber things.
I was thinking could youhydroform timber?
That's the next thought process.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
You could probably hydroform bamboo.
It's got the same kind oftensile strength as steel.
Speaker 3 (44:15):
Well, the theory is based on if you leave water like
your timber out in the rain,it's going to warp to shit.
Yeah, maybe if you just fill itup with water water like your
timber out in the rain, it'sgonna walk to shit.
Yeah, maybe if you just fill itup with water, I don't know put
a timber box together, thinplywood or something, and then
just or even just have a sheetof ply outside with a bunch of
water on it for a week, I wonderif it would deform into a
(44:38):
hydroform it's been.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
It's been stabilizing it, though, but yeah, it's
worth testing Exactly.
Speaker 4 (44:45):
For your mum's kitchen.
Yeah yeah, for a bench top,that'd be a real good bench top.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
It's cool but like honestly, gerard, it's a real
pain in the ass Every time I puta carrot on my plate keeps
falling off.
Speaker 4 (45:00):
I just have a bunch of fruits in the middle.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
Genius, we're coming up with a good, big idea today.
Speaker 4 (45:12):
Yeah, it's like a big fruit bowl, like a bench top
and a fruit bowl.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
A whole dining table is like a bowl.
Everyone's food just ends up inthe middle like a big paella.
Speaker 4 (45:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
I was thinking more like a pig slot than that's your
next table idea, Romano.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yeah, I'm stealing that idea.
Speaker 5 (45:36):
It's actually not too bad.
Yeah, a fruit bowl Actually.
I quite like that idea.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Is it a table?
Is it a fruit bowl?
Uh, actually I quite like thatidea.
Is it a table?
Is it a fruit bowl?
Speaker 4 (45:45):
yeah, like a really nice subtle curve.
Speaker 3 (45:47):
I can see that yeah, I um, I'm always influenced by a
big fan of who's it?
Mumbai studio who like have aworkshop at their studio and
they would do one-to-onemock-ups of like.
I think often they'd do like thesection of the building, so you
(46:09):
could kind of get the Eve sortof feeling.
I love the idea of anarchitecture firm combined with
a workshop, like what?
Maybe Renzo Piano BuildingWorkshop, maybe what that was
like at the very start, or likedan holtrop's workshop, where he
just pulls concrete into dirtand lifts it up and looks at his
(46:31):
own textured panels.
A place of play, or likematerial experimentation yeah,
I'm 100 with you there.
Speaker 2 (46:40):
I'm gonna, I'm going to go out there and do it, do it
, I'm going to do it.
Speaker 4 (46:46):
Yeah.
What's the reason for that tripthen?
Is it to get?
Inspired?
Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah, just to have a look at some good architecture.
I haven't been to theseScandinavian countries before,
so we've been traveling aroundDenmark and Sweden and then
Finland and now in Germany andthen Paris tomorrow.
So just yeah, haven't been tothem and just wanted to
experience that design culture,pick up some lights on the way
(47:14):
which I actually had asuccessful flea market win of
like some amazing lights andthere's just like you go to the
flea market, there's like louispaulson stuff here and there and
you just I don't know it's likea different quality and all of
the apartments are just so wellcrafted.
They're stunning.
So it's that and then the otherside was just like really a
(47:37):
better understanding of thatmedium density realm where it's
starting to become a thing inour country, but it's been a
thing for hundreds of years overhere and they're so well
densified, densilated,densilated.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Densilated, densilated.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Densilated.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
We'll edit that out.
We'll edit that out, that isstaying at 100 so well desolated
that and yeah, there's just somany good examples of amazing,
deep but well-designed spacesthat I just wanted to experience
pretty much, absolutely worthmy time.
(48:23):
For sure, my partner is aarchitect as well, so we have
the same interests, which makesit easier alvar alto's workshop
was actually the one of thehighlights.
It's just so well designed andit's so interesting because he
was like a big fan of italywhich was spent a lot of time in
italy and he had this designstyle, but then he went to italy
(48:46):
on his honeymoon and he cameback and he basically completely
changed his design style abouthow things are kind of merged
together a little bit moreorganically on his buildings and
you kind of see, like that, asearly designs verse like, like
you know, experiencing the spaceand then coming a little bit,
coming away with a completedifferent sense of architecture,
(49:09):
I guess so looking forward toseeing your looking forward to
seeing your design evolutionpost this trip now, ben, it
can't hurtright.
It's just like doing aniterative process.
You're actually experiencingthese spaces are the same as
experiencing those differentcreative designs or whatever.
(49:33):
So I think it's pretty.
It's been pretty insightful,for sure.
Speaker 4 (49:38):
Yeah, so his workshop , where was that?
Speaker 2 (49:45):
So it's in Helsinki and it's so cool.
From the outside it's neverreally much to look at but it's
so well designed around stuffhe'd taken from, for example,
italy or some of his travels.
He's got like an amphitheatercourtyard where, you know,
people can go and have lunch andkind of look out or do their
(50:07):
presentations outside, kind ofall sit around a semi-circle and
then just use some naturallight.
So they've got like pop-outwindows everywhere where their
dream boards used to be, and sothey have their pinups on these
like special walls that thelight is reflecting directly
onto.
And yeah, it's just, it's justamazing really.
(50:27):
And all these spaces are verylarge.
Everyone has like a good kindof workshop area essentially to
work in, as opposed to just likea one meter desk with a
computer.
You know there's a lot, so muchmore hands-on, yeah uh.
So it's kind of like so byworkshop, it's a studio with
where they work with materials,exactly, yeah, so each, each
(50:52):
person has like a uh, 20 squaremeter space, almost, maybe like
10 to 20, and they've just gotmaterials everywhere board
boards everywhere, tables um no,not so much like machines or
anything like that, probably.
But you know, like they did alot of like lighting designs and
(51:12):
, um, that testing and all oftheir tiles.
They had like the iteration ofall their tiles that they've
done over the years there andthen obviously just like your
model making and traditionalstuff, which is pretty
interesting, just a good workenvironment.
It's kind of like mixed media.
Speaker 4 (51:30):
I guess, yeah, it sounds like it's the
spaciousness that's quitedifferent from a typical
architectural studio.
Speaker 2 (51:40):
Yeah, just a generous surface area to work with and
then, yeah, just a lot ofnatural light, and then he just
had like a whole bunch of stuffgoing on with what.
What's their name?
Speaker 1 (51:52):
art tech is it um?
Who did the?
Speaker 2 (51:55):
manufacturing all their furniture, which is also
so interesting, like there'slike I can't replace.
Speaker 5 (52:02):
Well, that's the funny thing.
Speaker 2 (52:04):
That original, not even the original stuff, the
proper stuff isn't actuallyplywood, it's actually solid
timber and it's just likeslotted into one of the strips
yeah, okay.
But then it's like that's onlyto get forward to the bend, but
then it goes solid timber again.
So when you look at the proper,proper, the original kind of
(52:31):
chairs and whatnot that you canstill buy today, the quality and
the craftsmanship is just like10 times better than the ikea
ripoffs and that was kind oflike designed for.
You know, like there's some ofit was designed for like the
hospitals and that sort of thingfor like higher end stuff right
down to like the layperson whocan, you know, have some of
those stools?
But it was meant to be likerelatively affordable,
(52:53):
well-designed, well-craftedfurniture, and then the lighting
as well, which is prettyimpressive.
So that was definitely, yeah,yeah, the highlight of the trip
romana.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
Are you you're still making like all your furniture
in-house, or are you getting tothe point where some of that's
getting outsourced for?
Speaker 4 (53:13):
the furniture.
It's semi-outsourced, so I'lldo the laminations.
I mean it's very basicwoodworking.
I'll do the lamination in-house.
And then I've got a friend whoowns a CNC router I said it to
(53:39):
him who I think he would havebeen perfect to include in this
conversation.
His background is inarchitecture Alistair Munro is
his name, so he has a CNC and hewraps the laminated planks,
then comes back.
I sent it off, then send it tothe polishers and then they
(54:05):
spread with polyurethane.
Awesome, so I do.
I do that in-house,semi-in-house, and then the
metal work I work with localmanufacturers in.
They're based in henderson andtheir, their workshop, um yeah,
it's very built for highervolume production then it's and
(54:28):
it's interesting to get to visitand see how they operate versus
a workshop like um, like athat's designed for bespoke
pieces, like one-off elements,very different models and the
way they're set up.
Speaker 1 (54:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (54:50):
Yeah so More linear.
Romano, did you find that kindof liberating, starting to
outsource, because I think whenI came and visited you that was
quite a few years ago now, but Ithink you had a jig for your
stools, like the ones that areat mr goes.
I think I think you were juststarting to like nail out how to
weld those together as fast asyou could yeah, yes, it
(55:14):
definitely was.
Speaker 4 (55:15):
Um, I mean, it's always been a goal to get high
volume orders and be able tooutsource the production Because
from a business point of viewit's viable.
I want to say it's easy money.
Yeah, if your margins are right, you hit the right markets and
(55:39):
you've got a product they likethen just press play with the
manufacturers and see you in amonth.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, it's definitely yeah, and that
professional comes back perfectevery time.
Well, you know exactly it's thelevel of finish is generally
pretty awesome.
Yeah it is.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
Yeah, I'm like they have way better than my welds,
yeah.
Speaker 3 (56:09):
I feel like a fraud sometimes.
Like you know, I do all thiswelding but as soon as like an
actual welder, I got a friendwho works at a large industrial
workshop in Poriru and just himand the guys he works with, like
their actual skills, theiractual technical fabrication
skills are just like moons aheadof where.
(56:31):
Where I will ever be.
Yeah, you're always like yeah,like we can't kid ourselves,
we're not like actual megacraftsmen, like we're.
I'm a fraud in the industry.
Speaker 1 (56:46):
Really I'm using it as a design tool at least you're
not playing at all yeah, not afraud at all.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
No, no, yeah, exactly .
Speaker 3 (56:55):
You're not at all, though, because these guys that
do are amazing, like it'sincredible what, how good you
can be if you're like weldingall day I know it's insane, like
how?
Speaker 4 (57:07):
uh?
They're like oh, if I weld it,if I do these stacks here, the,
the steel is going to move thatway.
It's yeah, it's prettyincredible their understanding
of the material yeah, anyone canweld.
Speaker 3 (57:21):
But can you weld something square?
Speaker 4 (57:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's a whole other game.
That's why you've got ahydroforming HR.
Speaker 1 (57:28):
you don't have to worry about squares anymore.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah, Generally makes it a lot easier.
It's been awesome.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
Loving the check craft.
Speaker 4 (57:41):
Yeah, it was really fun.
Speaker 3 (57:45):
Loving your work.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, keep, keep, keep buildingcool stuff if you want to hang
out at the workshop.
Speaker 4 (57:51):
Come and come and visit I do.
Speaker 2 (57:54):
I'll be hitting you up as soon as I get home I mean
I don't want to set yourexpectation.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
It's a very small workshop.
No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (58:02):
That's fine, that's fine.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!