August 10, 2025 • 36 mins
Welcome to episode 40 of the Designing with Love podcast! In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Catrina Mitchum, an educator, instructional designer, and the founder of Catrina Mitchum Learning Design.
Ever wondered why so many online courses fail to deliver meaningful learning experiences? In this enlightening conversation with Dr. Catrina Mitchum, founder of Catrina Mitchum Learning Design, we uncover the critical mistakes that derail course creators and the powerful solutions that can transform digital learning.
Dr. Mitchum shares her journey from higher education professor to course design specialist, revealing how she became an "accidental instructional designer" when her community college lacked these crucial professionals. Her insights stem from both academic expertise and hands-on experience helping course creators avoid the pitfalls of poor design.
The conversation explores why content-focused approaches almost always fail, the importance of validation before course creation, and why so many digital courses end up "collecting dust on the digital shelf." You'll discover why proper feedback systems matter more than testimonial hunting, how to design logical learning paths, and why a good "Start Here" module can make or break the learning experience.
For those transitioning from one-on-one teaching to group formats, Dr. Mitchum offers practical advice on creating hybrid models that maintain personal connection while scaling effectively. She also shares her favorite AI tools that support the course creation process without replacing the human element of instructional design.
Whether you're an aspiring instructional designer, a course creator looking to improve your offerings, or an educator seeking to enhance your teaching approach, this episode delivers actionable strategies to create learning experiences that truly transform knowledge into application. As Dr. Mitchum powerfully states, "Information without application is useless."
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello, GCU students, alumni andfellow educators, Welcome to
episode 40 of the Designing withLove podcast.
(00:21):
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Dr Catrina Mitchum,
the founder of Catrina MitchumLearning Design.
Welcome, Dr Mitchum.
Jackie, thanks so much forhaving me.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I'm glad we got to connect onPodmatch and have an opportunity
to do this interview today andreally get some good insight
from you with your company thatyou have, and then also to be
(00:45):
able to help my students who maywant to go into something
similar to that.
That's great, Wonderful.
So can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Sure?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (00:54):
So my company is Catrina Mitchum
Learning Design.
I've been in business foralmost three years and I am a
recovering academic is what Icall myself.
I was in higher ed.
I still adjunct, actually.
Jackie Pelegrin (01:11):
But I was in higher ed.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (01:14):
I think I taught my first class in 2008.
And I taught my first onlineclass in 2009.
So we've come a really long waysince then.
Yes, absolutely 2009.
And so we've come a really longway since then.
But I started at a time when mycommunity college didn't have
(01:34):
instructional designers, becauseit was not common and also not
affordable to have them to workwith you, and so I kind of
became an instructional designerbecause I wanted to teach
online.
I taught online only from 2010,all the way up until now, and
so, in order to do it well, Istudied instructional design all
(01:56):
the way through, because Iwanted to do it right, because I
knew it was different fromteaching in person, right?
Jackie Pelegrin (02:05):
So in essence you kind of became an accidental
instructional designer.
You didn't plan on it but itjust was there and you knew that
you, that was something youneeded to do.
Yeah, that's, that's amazing.
Yeah, that's kind of how I kindof fell on my lap too and I was
like, oh, this is this, whatinstructional design is?
I think it was something I knewI always wanted to do, but I
(02:26):
didn't know there was a name forit.
So it's interesting how westumble upon it and don't
realize it.
Or those that are maybeteaching or doing something
similar they are doing it andthey don't realize it.
Because I have a student that'sin my program right now and
she's like I was doing it for awhile and just didn't realize it
.
So it's interesting how westumble upon it and realize, oh,
(02:47):
the light bulb moment happens,yeah, yeah yeah exactly, that's
neat, wow, that's cool.
And so what do you think are thetop five mistakes that course
creators make, because yourwebsite does such a good job of
kind of outlining what shouldoccur, but what do you think are
the top five mistakes that theymake?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (03:08):
The number one is a focus on content first,
and I, having doneinstructional design in higher
ed before I got out, I would saythat's also a problem in higher
education too is assuming thatif I give them the information,
they will learn it and they willknow it and they will be able
(03:29):
to do it without anything else.
Um, there are so many coursesout there that are just video
vaults and content dumps, andyou know, we all know.
If you're listening to thispodcast, I'm guessing you know
that that's not actually howlearning works.
So, yeah, I would say that'sthe number one.
(03:52):
The number two is not actuallygetting feedback, oh that's a
big one when you're sellingcourses is different than higher
education and is different thanhaving to do it for work higher
education and is different thanhaving to do it for work.
And a lot of times people focustoo heavily on getting
testimonials or just positivereviews so that they can use
(04:13):
them in their marketing andsales, but they don't often
collect the feedback that is sonecessary to actually making
changes to the course so that itis successful the second time
around or the third time aroundor however many times around
they're going.
At that point they just don'tthink to get the feedback.
(04:37):
I am constantly recommending tofocus on feedback first and
then say can I use some of thisin my marketing?
Right Cause, feedback should beboth the positive and the
negative things, and a lot oftimes there's really good gems
about the positive experiencesthat people had.
Um, but focusing on it asfeedback before focusing on it
(05:00):
as a testimonial would go areally long way.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:04):
Wow, that's true.
It's almost like like they'reskipping not because I hear a
lot the with the Addy modelthat's used quite often that
people want to skip analysis,right, and go right into design,
and then they skip the E part,at the end, the evaluation, and
they're just like, okay, let'sroll out this course and then
let's just let it go and not doany evaluation, and so it almost
(05:27):
feels like those bookends areso important but they just want
to throw them away and just dowhat's in the middle and that's
it Right.
Yeah, yeah, and that's a dangerto that, because no evaluation
means you don't know what workedand what didn't and what you
need to improve Right.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (05:43):
Right, Right, yeah, Well, and and that
you know, bringing up Addy, thatthat is actually the third one
that I was going to mention isthe so you would call it
validation, Right when in the onthe course creation industry,
but they don't.
They don't get that validationearly on, Like there's no asking
(06:04):
of hey, if I was going to sella course on this, this or this,
what would you be interested in?
Or even things like writing outdescriptions of what's going to
be in there, or creating goals.
So many courses, so manycourses don't have goals, which
is probably the fourth one, butI'm going to tie it in with the
third one, because they're notusing, if they do have goals,
(06:25):
they're not using them tovalidate the course before they
start building things.
Jackie Pelegrin (06:31):
Oh, wow Right.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (06:33):
They're not asking, like, if you took a
course on digital marketing,would improving your email
click-through rate be somethingthat you would want to work
toward as a goal, right?
They're not asking those veryspecific, concrete outcomes
types of questions and when you,I mean I feel like it's really
(06:55):
an opportunity, like they havesuch a great opportunity to
build a course that peopleactually want, instead of
feeling having students feellike the course is kind of
thrusted on them, like canhappen in higher education,
where, you know, we often designthings based on what we, what
we think they need to know,instead of what their goals are.
(07:16):
The course creation industry isreally this unique opportunity
to build something based on thechanges that people want to make
and the goals that they comewith to that space so important
right, kind of figuring outwhat's the?
Jackie Pelegrin (07:34):
almost like a backwards design right, where
you figure out what are theoutcomes, what are the goals of
what the learner wants, and thenyou build the course from there
and you figure out what thoseare, and so, yeah, that's so
important, yeah, that's theexact.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (07:49):
I take them through backwards design, my
clients.
I take them through backwardsdesign.
I don't call it that Right.
You know a lot of the shiftingfrom instructional design in
spaces where it's a known andexpected kind of language, right
Right Into a space where I'vehad to do some yelling about how
(08:12):
important course design is.
And the people that hear me andunderstand me the most are the
people that have built a coursethat didn't do.
Well, I do a lot of courseaudits because they come to me
and they say you know, I builtthis thing and I really thought
people were going to love it andthey can't even get past the
(08:32):
first module.
Jackie Pelegrin (08:34):
Oh wow, that's sad.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (08:36):
Oh yeah, and so that actually brings me
to number five.
And that's because there's nogetting started or start here or
like cohesive kind of this ishow the course works, like
sometimes there's a welcomevideo but it's not really a
navigation slash.
Take your time slash.
(08:58):
This is how much time thingsare going to take.
All of the things that I gotused to putting into a course in
higher education like thatstart here module.
It's so important, it's it'svery difficult to find in the
course creation industry, eventhe very so.
The very first course I boughton it was supposed to help me
(09:19):
get out of higher education andit was terrible.
There was no clear learningpath.
The modules had no.
There were no stepping stonesbetween things, there was no
transparency in why this builton that and there was no getting
(09:40):
started space at all.
I just started clicking on themodule in the upper left-hand
corner because that seemed likemaybe it was the place to start,
but it wasn't.
It wasn't the place to start.
Jackie Pelegrin (09:52):
So it wasn't logical in any logical order and
it almost felt like ahodgepodge of different elements
put together.
Right, but no, no sequence toit.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:03):
Yeah, exactly Exactly.
It wasn't a learning journey,it was just a dump of
information, oh gosh.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:09):
That's not good .
Because, then if the learnersdon't know where to start and
how to continue, okay, I'mbuilding upon something, I'm
learning as I go and I know whatmy end goal is.
If there's no clear path, itleaves them confused more than
ever, right Than when they is.
Yeah, there's no clear paththat leaves them confused more
than ever Right Then then whenthey started.
Yeah, that's true, exactly.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:29):
Yeah, For me it brought clarity, because I
was like oh, this is a gap.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:33):
Right, this is something I can.
I can actually help others tobe able to do a better job at
course creation and, yeah,that's so.
You saw a need.
You saw that.
That opportunity of being ableto fulfill that and make courses
better yeah, I love that that's.
That's a wonderful opportunityto be able to do that and to
(10:54):
make make these courses better.
So, no matter what someonewants to learn, they can have
that clear path and you knowthat they're going to be
successful with that and thecourse is going to be successful
too for all the learners.
So that's important, yeah, cool.
Yeah, I believe instructionaldesign in any type of realm or
course development.
(11:15):
It's supposed to help peoplereach their goals and help them
learn something that they didn'tknow before and be able to
apply that to their lives andtheir careers.
So it's definitely the type ofindustry and the type of
Education is so giving as anindustry as a whole.
(11:35):
So it's really nice to havethat opportunity to change lives
in so many great ways.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Yeah, so how do you suggestthat course creators move from
that one-on-one to more groupcontent without losing the
personal touch?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (11:52):
My answer to this question is always
hybrid.
Yes, you know, as, as a subjectmatter expert, right, they know
the sticky points.
They know the places wherepeople that they work with
one-on-one get stuck Right andover on repeat and walking them
(12:27):
through the same questions andactivities and, in general, not
having to change what they'redoing very much from person to
person in similar sessions.
Those are the things that canstart to live in a horse.
And then the places where it'sreally sticky.
That's the place where you dothe one-on-one still until you
(12:48):
figure out and sometimes youwon't right, sometimes there's
just learning.
As you know, jackie, learningneeds to be just challenging
enough in order for it to feelworthwhile, in order for us to
actually learn the thing, and sosometimes that one-on-one piece
(13:09):
, it's that, it's that thingthat needs to be just
challenging enough and you needanother person to help you
through it.
Um, so that my recommendationis always to to do hybrid and
then to start with the thingsthat that go on, that go on
repeat, as the places where youstart to not evergreen, but kind
(13:35):
of things that are repeatablefrom person to person.
Jackie Pelegrin (13:40):
That's so true, looking for those areas where
there may be more.
Maybe more clarity is neededbecause you find that students
or learners will struggle incertain areas and you can kind
of anticipate that.
Or just after time, you see,okay, they're struggling with
this part, I to give away all ofit.
We want to create somechallenges at the same time, but
(14:04):
not not challenge them so muchthat they they stumble upon it
and they can't get past the nextto the next module, right?
So we want to exactly yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (14:13):
We want to exactly.
We want to remove the barriersthat don't need to be there,
right?
Like some barriers are thingsthat they need to overcome to
learn the thing, but some arejust barriers because we thought
it was a good thing to do, orwe forgot to caption our videos
or you know whatever else,whatever else we accidentally
did that created theseartificial barriers that don't
(14:36):
actually need to be there forlearning to happen.
Jackie Pelegrin (14:38):
Yeah, that's so true.
Yeah, Cause we don't.
Yeah, the last thing we want todo is have cognitive overload
and and then make themfrustrated.
And then they're like, ah,forget it, I'm going to give up
and just not, I'm not going todo this anymore.
And especially if they paid forthe course, I would imagine
that's got to be morefrustrating when they were like
(14:59):
wait, I can't even complete this, and you know I'll just take my
loss.
You wait, I can't even completethis and you know I'll just
take my loss.
You know that's when you knowit's not a good thing?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:07):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah.
And so many people like whenI'm in networking groups and I
talk about what I'm doing, I getso many nods when I talk about
courses that they have put onthe digital shelf and are
collecting dust becauseeverybody has them, them because
there's that many terriblydesigned courses in the course
(15:27):
creation industry, unfortunately.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:30):
Wow.
So they just kind of sit thereand don't really serve any
purpose, right?
They're just.
They're just, they're justtaking up digital space.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, basically making somebody have
to pay $100 a month for Kajabi,basically.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:45):
Wow, yeah, that's not cheap.
Yeah, yeah, that's tough, andespecially for an organization
that that's their lifeblood,right, and that's what they rely
on, and then having to shellout that extra money, that's not
a good return on investment oranything.
Yeah, that's true, wow.
So, as we know, ai technologyis continuing to make waves and,
(16:09):
of course, it's in education,it's in instructional design.
I use it every day.
It's an amazing thing, but thenthere's also the always the
downside to everything when itcomes to technology.
So are there any specific AItechnology tools that you find
helpful as you're working withclients to use during the course
creation process?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:30):
Yeah, I am a Claude gal, um, so I prefer
Claude for a variety of reasons,um, but I like being able to
build the projects and I just Ijust feel like it gives better
responses, and I just feel likeit gives better responses.
Jackie Pelegrin (16:43):
That's good.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:45):
I also, like in, I try to make my
services accessible, and so I dosometimes have things that are
more like guidebook, and so whenI have activities in there, I
do try to give AI prompts tohelp the people that buy it, so
that if they don't feel likethey need me, I'm replacing
(17:12):
myself.
We can't do that.
I have tried.
I have tried to get it to actlike an instructional designer,
and it's not a great output.
No matter which AI tool I use,I've noticed that too.
Yeah, also.
They don't know what they need,and so AI doesn't know that
either.
Jackie Pelegrin (17:26):
Right, that's true.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (17:28):
But I will often use it to get prompts to
give folks like.
This is the goal of theactivity.
How can I help someone use anyAI tool to kind of get something
so that they're not kind ofstaring at the blank page, right
, because that can be scary.
My background is in writing andso any kind of blank page is
(17:52):
scary to a lot of people.
I also I mean, they've beenusing AI for a while but I like
Adobe Premiere Pro for videoediting.
It just the ability to removeall of the pauses and the speech
to text for captioning is moreon point than any tool that I've
(18:15):
seen.
The only thing it spells wrongis my name, because it insists
that my name should be spelledwith a K Instead of a C.
Yeah, instead of a C.
Yeah, but yeah, I would saythose are my two top daily AI
tools.
That's great.
I also really like Perplexity,for if I'm having to fill in
(18:37):
some gaps in some places withresearch, I feel like Perplexity
is a really good tool for thattoo.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:44):
Wow, that's great.
I'll have to check out AdobePremiere Pro.
It's been a while since I'veused it and so I'll have to
check it out with the AI toolsthat are incorporated in it,
because Adobe has done such agreat job of integrating that in
there.
Like when they first came outwith Firefly, I had to check
that out.
I was like Ooh, image creationthis is neat and um, and some of
my students have beenmentioning Adobe express and how
(19:07):
they use that with theirstudents and it has AI built in
there too.
So it's it seems like they'vedone a good job of making it to
where it's integrated and itdoesn't feel like it's out of
place.
It's in good place?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (19:19):
Absolutely doesn't.
Jackie Pelegrin (19:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (19:22):
I would say from a so, not an instructional
design perspective, but ifyou're going to try to help
course creators and go intobusiness for yourself, either as
a freelancer or solo proprietoror whatever it happens to be
(19:47):
appier a lot for automations andI was using it before they
integrated AI, and that tooldoesn't always call the thing
that is the trigger or theresult the same as all the other
tools it's integrated with, andso it could sometimes be like a
lot of trial and error tofigure out what to call
something, but their AIintegration has made that way
easier.
Wow, that's great yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:08):
Yeah, anything we can do to help with those
mundane tasks, right, that weused to do and automate some of
those things that I think that'swhere AI can really do a great
job of that.
Yeah, yeah.
And we in curriculumdevelopment we use it to just
come up with ideas for different, for, like topics, objectives.
(20:29):
Well, I mean, in program designwe come up with topics, but we
use it to come up withobjectives.
And we also take the coursedescription, pull that into AI
and say, based on this, can youcome up with some different
assignments and things like that.
So it's good at that because,as you know, like you said
earlier, subject matter expertsthat they're, they know what
(20:50):
they want, but it's just gettingto that outcome right of
figuring out how to, how to dothat and how to be able to do it
in authentic ways, so that thelearner feels like they have
that authentic experience andthat it's not just oh, I have to
write this essay.
I have to, you know, becausewriting is important, as we know
(21:10):
, but at the same time, givingthem that that real world
application is so important.
So being able to do that andhelp them not to feel like they
have to go to AI all the timeand feel like they can, yeah,
have that experience that makesit more authentic than feeling
like it's busy work, causethat's definitely not something
(21:31):
we want.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And and that's the case, thereare a lot of, I think.
I mean, teaching is hard, right, because we are excited about
the thing that we're teaching,and so it can be difficult to
make sure that we're tying itinto direct real world
applications, no matter whatindustry you're in.
(21:57):
That, I mean, that matters.
It matters to adults especially, but I would even argue it
matters to kids.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:04):
Right, that's so true.
Yeah, because when I thinkabout instructional design and
how diverse it is, you know youcan go into corporate, higher ed
, k through 12, military,nonprofit, and you think of all
of those different industriesand how they have similarities
but they also have differencestoo, you know.
I mean, if you, if you'rethinking of government or
(22:25):
military, their, their processesare different, right, and so
very different.
That, I think, is so importanttoo.
So, yeah, so it's veryinteresting when you kind of
look at the different ways thatinstructional designers can
embed themselves in differentareas, and so it's very
interesting, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's cool.
(22:47):
And so the last question is isabout the most.
Most of my listeners arestudents, but I do have some
others that are noviceinstructional designers.
But I always like to ask youknow, what are some tips and
advice that you can share withthose that are currently in the
master's program ininstructional design at Grand
Canyon University?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (23:18):
I, if you haven't taught a class, also
teach a class, because there's alot of value in being able to
see, kind of the wholetrajectory of a course from.
It doesn't have to be a courseyou designed either.
I mean there's a lot of valuein teaching a course that you
didn't design, but being able tosee every phase and step and
stage of the process, includingthe delivery of it.
Right, the teachers often dothe delivery of the online
(23:40):
course, and having that deliveryexperience will go a really
long way in being able to workwith subject matter experts in a
way where you actually getsomewhere.
I mean, I've heard you hearhorror stories, right, about
subject matter experts who don'twant to listen and they don't
understand.
(24:02):
Putting yourself into thatteaching seat can help you
better understand where they'recoming from.
So that would probably be myfirst piece of advice.
I also feel like you don't needto limit yourself to the
(24:22):
industries that people arealready working in, right?
Nobody thought that I was goingto leave higher education and
start helping people that sellcourses for a living.
Um, because there are not a lotof instructional designers out
there doing what I'm doing rightnow.
Um, a lot of the, a lot of thecourses that are out there um,
(24:46):
that have been out there for along time on how to create a
course, are actually designedand developed by marketers.
Oh wow, yeah, I mean, that's whywe're in the situation where
we're in.
Right, and you know, I don'tthink that people do it from a
place of, you know, trying totrick others.
(25:09):
I think that, even frompersonal experience, if you're
not taught to be a teacher oryou're not taught to be a
curriculum developer, then youtend to try to teach people in
the ways that you've been taught, and so they're mimicking what
their previous experiences are,even if they weren't great,
(25:29):
because they don't know whatelse to do.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:32):
Oh my gosh, that's so true.
I've noticed that with subjectmatter experts quite a bit.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Or they'll pick a textbook fora course because that's what
they had, or they had somethingsimilar to it.
I'm like, but is this reallythe best textbook for the course
?
And then they want to write thecourse around the textbook and
I'm like, wait a minute, but ifthe textbook, if we got the
(25:54):
cause, sometimes we lose rightsto the textbook as an
institution if the textbook goesaway, is the course still
valuable?
Can you still teach it withwhat's in there and can the
students still do the assignment?
And then when I asked them thatquestion, they're like, oh no,
not really.
And I'm like, okay, then youshouldn't build a course around
a textbook.
You know it, know it shouldjust be there to help them, you
(26:17):
know, further learn theinformation.
But it should never, yeah,should never be built around it.
And some of the some of themdon't realize that until you ask
them that question.
And then they're just like, oh,I see now, yeah, yeah, so true.
Yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (26:32):
Folks are often shocked because the number
one thing people do is create abunch of content without
anything else.
Right, and so the note they'reoften shocked when I tell them
to to identify the actions first, like what are the things that
we're having them do, and thenonly pull in the content that's
going to support those actionsand activities so that they can
(26:55):
actually reach the goals.
Yeah, because informationwithout application is useless,
absolutely.
Jackie Pelegrin (27:04):
That is so true .
Yeah, I love that Great.
And I love the part youmentioned about teaching too,
because I've been aninstructional designer for 14
years, coming on going on 15.
Now I think, well, at the endof the year it'll be 15 years,
but then I've only been aninstructor in teaching the
(27:24):
instructional design courses forthree years.
So it's like wow, it took me awhile to get into that, because
where I've been working, I kepttrying and then I wasn't getting
in.
And then they, finally, youknow, five years ago, they they
started offering theinstructional design program
because I was looking elsewhereand they wanted someone.
If I was going to teach at amaster's level, they wanted me
(27:44):
to have a doctorate, and I waslike, well, I don't know if I
want to go back to school againto do that and uh, but yeah, it
was kind of interesting.
And then they had that andthey're like, oh, we'll apply
for the position.
And I'm like, all right, I'llapply.
And so I agree, it's made me abetter instructional designer,
being able to teach and see howeven though I don't get to work
(28:05):
on the instructional designcourses I work in another
college but being able to seethat process, because I kept
hearing the same things over andover again from instructors,
like students don't know how towrite very well and they don't
know how to do these differentthings.
And I was so shocked by thatand I was like, really, that
doesn't, that's just seems weird.
How would they be able to getinto a master's program and take
(28:27):
master's level courses withoutknowing how to write?
Well, that just blew my mind.
But then when I startedteaching the courses, I was like
, oh my gosh, I know exactlywhat they're talking about now.
So it just really opens up youreyes to that.
And then you get to kind ofvalidate what they've been
telling you all along.
So yeah, it's amazing Also.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (28:48):
I'm going to just point this out the
discipline of writing studies,their own teaching, and so going
and looking at all of theresearch or not, don't do all
the research, it's been decadesand decades but looking at the
research that's done in writingstudies and incorporating that
(29:09):
into every single class wouldprobably be really useful.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:14):
That's a good idea.
I love that.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (29:16):
Yeah, maybe not in the course creation
industry, but just like inhigher education, because most
of the time when there'scomplaints about students not
knowing how to write, it'sbecause they haven't been taught
how to write in that discipline.
And so if you take what we knowabout the teaching of writing
(29:38):
and pull it into your owndiscipline and there's a whole
area called writing across thedisciplines and writing in the
disciplines and starting to pullthose things in can help
students learn how to write inyour particular discipline.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:53):
Wow, that's amazing.
I'll have to pass that alongbecause, yeah, you're right,
different disciplines do need towrite differently, because a
lot of what I work on is thesocial sciences areas, so
counseling, social work,psychology, and so they do have
to have some writing in there,but it's mostly like case notes
(30:15):
and you know things like that,but it's very much case study
heavy and then they have toanalyze it, write about it,
things like that.
But it's interesting because incounseling they want them to
always write an APA.
I'm like, ok, interesting, butwill they write an APA out in?
the field and when they're intheir agency?
Probably not, maybe I don'tknow, but yeah, it's very
(30:41):
interesting how they want tostill have that academic setting
of it.
Yeah, and I'm like that'sinteresting.
So, yeah, that's so true, youknow, being able to write in
that what that industry writesand, yeah, being able to
replicate that as much as youcan, yeah, that's so important.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (30:52):
My favorite example is you mentioned the
military earlier my favoriteexample is memos, Because memos
in the military look very, verydifferent than memos in the
business world, and so really Imean it really just does depend
on the area that you're tryingto write in and having to learn
(31:13):
what those expectations areRight.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:22):
That's true.
Yeah, yeah, the government isis different than business, uh,
in so many ways.
Yeah, they write for, they'rewriting for a different purpose,
right, so it's, it's different,it has to be different in that
that aspect.
That's true.
Wow, yeah, you learn, uh,different industries and you're
like, oh yeah, that's not quitethe same and so you can't can't
treat it as a one size fits allor anything like that.
No size fits all for adults,it's.
(31:52):
Yeah, we can't assume thatevery adult knows this
information, and so I have toremind SMEs of that too.
Like, do they?
Can we really assume that theyknow this already?
And, yeah, because adults comein at different levels and yeah,
it's so true, yeah, that's whatmakes it both challenging and
(32:13):
fun.
Yeah, that's what makes it bothchallenging and fun.
Right, exactly, I agree, youknow, yeah, it's it.
You're always kept on your toeswhen it comes to this industry
and, no matter what type of workyou do, it's yeah, it's
definitely keeps you active.
And job security I always saythat it's job security.
(32:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And creativity.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (32:36):
I feel like you know sometimes you have to
be so creative to get somethingto work the way that your
subject matter expert wants itto work, based on what they have
access to and don't have accessto, and so I find it.
You know, thinking about thechallenges as ways to be
creative goes a long way.
Jackie Pelegrin (32:59):
Absolutely Right and then bringing their
vision to life right.
So they have this idea of whatthey want.
They just don't know how tobring it to life, and so we're
there to help bring it to lifein the most meaningful way, so
that it's learner-centered, andthat's so important to make it
learner-centered.
Yeah, that's something I alwaysremind the subject matter
(33:19):
experts about.
I'm like you have to make sureit's centered on the learner and
that it's not just some wishlist that we have, but that it
really is going to help them.
Yeah, that's great, wonderful.
Was there anything else youwanted to share with my
listeners today that you canthink of?
I feel like we covered a lot.
(33:50):
Get so much knowledge out ofthis and they'll be able to
really know that they can jumpinto this career, no matter what
area they go into, and it takestime.
But I think, with that passionand that go-to attitude, I know
that a lot of my listeners willbe able to go into the field and
(34:12):
feel like they can really makea difference and help learners
advance their knowledge andtheir skills as well.
So it's exciting.
That's why we're all here.
Yes, exactly, I don't thinkinstructional design is going
anywhere anytime soon.
If anything, it's going to keepadvancing and growing and
gaining popularity.
Because whenever people ask mewhat I do for a living, it's
(34:33):
interesting because I sayinstructional design and I think
it's still kind of new topeople.
They don't know what that isand I'll say what is that?
And so when I tell them what itis and then they go, ah, they
have the aha moment, like oh,that's what that is.
And I'm like, yeah, that's whatit is.
So it's exciting to help peopleeven learn what the field is
about.
(34:53):
So, yeah, it's exciting.
And when they see that you'reexcited and you know your work
and you have a passion for it,it just makes it even better.
It's exciting, great Well,thank you so much again for your
time and I appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks for having me,you're welcome.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
(35:14):
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
I'm truly thankful for you.
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello, GCU students, alumni andfellow educators, Welcome to
episode 40 of the Designing withLove podcast.
(00:21):
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Dr Catrina Mitchum,
the founder of Catrina MitchumLearning Design.
Welcome, Dr Mitchum.
Jackie, thanks so much forhaving me.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
I'm glad we got to connect onPodmatch and have an opportunity
to do this interview today andreally get some good insight
from you with your company thatyou have, and then also to be
(00:45):
able to help my students who maywant to go into something
similar to that.
That's great, Wonderful.
So can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Sure?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (00:54):
So my company is Catrina Mitchum
Learning Design.
I've been in business foralmost three years and I am a
recovering academic is what Icall myself.
I was in higher ed.
I still adjunct, actually.
Jackie Pelegrin (01:11):
But I was in higher ed.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (01:14):
I think I taught my first class in 2008.
And I taught my first onlineclass in 2009.
So we've come a really long waysince then.
Yes, absolutely 2009.
And so we've come a really longway since then.
But I started at a time when mycommunity college didn't have
(01:34):
instructional designers, becauseit was not common and also not
affordable to have them to workwith you, and so I kind of
became an instructional designerbecause I wanted to teach
online.
I taught online only from 2010,all the way up until now, and
so, in order to do it well, Istudied instructional design all
(01:56):
the way through, because Iwanted to do it right, because I
knew it was different fromteaching in person, right?
Jackie Pelegrin (02:05):
So in essence you kind of became an accidental
instructional designer.
You didn't plan on it but itjust was there and you knew that
you, that was something youneeded to do.
Yeah, that's, that's amazing.
Yeah, that's kind of how I kindof fell on my lap too and I was
like, oh, this is this, whatinstructional design is?
I think it was something I knewI always wanted to do, but I
(02:26):
didn't know there was a name forit.
So it's interesting how westumble upon it and don't
realize it.
Or those that are maybeteaching or doing something
similar they are doing it andthey don't realize it.
Because I have a student that'sin my program right now and
she's like I was doing it for awhile and just didn't realize it
.
So it's interesting how westumble upon it and realize, oh,
(02:47):
the light bulb moment happens,yeah, yeah yeah exactly, that's
neat, wow, that's cool.
And so what do you think are thetop five mistakes that course
creators make, because yourwebsite does such a good job of
kind of outlining what shouldoccur, but what do you think are
the top five mistakes that theymake?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (03:08):
The number one is a focus on content first,
and I, having doneinstructional design in higher
ed before I got out, I would saythat's also a problem in higher
education too is assuming thatif I give them the information,
they will learn it and they willknow it and they will be able
(03:29):
to do it without anything else.
Um, there are so many coursesout there that are just video
vaults and content dumps, andyou know, we all know.
If you're listening to thispodcast, I'm guessing you know
that that's not actually howlearning works.
So, yeah, I would say that'sthe number one.
(03:52):
The number two is not actuallygetting feedback, oh that's a
big one when you're sellingcourses is different than higher
education and is different thanhaving to do it for work higher
education and is different thanhaving to do it for work.
And a lot of times people focustoo heavily on getting
testimonials or just positivereviews so that they can use
(04:13):
them in their marketing andsales, but they don't often
collect the feedback that is sonecessary to actually making
changes to the course so that itis successful the second time
around or the third time aroundor however many times around
they're going.
At that point they just don'tthink to get the feedback.
(04:37):
I am constantly recommending tofocus on feedback first and
then say can I use some of thisin my marketing?
Right Cause, feedback should beboth the positive and the
negative things, and a lot oftimes there's really good gems
about the positive experiencesthat people had.
Um, but focusing on it asfeedback before focusing on it
(05:00):
as a testimonial would go areally long way.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:04):
Wow, that's true.
It's almost like like they'reskipping not because I hear a
lot the with the Addy modelthat's used quite often that
people want to skip analysis,right, and go right into design,
and then they skip the E part,at the end, the evaluation, and
they're just like, okay, let'sroll out this course and then
let's just let it go and not doany evaluation, and so it almost
(05:27):
feels like those bookends areso important but they just want
to throw them away and just dowhat's in the middle and that's
it Right.
Yeah, yeah, and that's a dangerto that, because no evaluation
means you don't know what workedand what didn't and what you
need to improve Right.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (05:43):
Right, Right, yeah, Well, and and that
you know, bringing up Addy, thatthat is actually the third one
that I was going to mention isthe so you would call it
validation, Right when in the onthe course creation industry,
but they don't.
They don't get that validationearly on, Like there's no asking
(06:04):
of hey, if I was going to sella course on this, this or this,
what would you be interested in?
Or even things like writing outdescriptions of what's going to
be in there, or creating goals.
So many courses, so manycourses don't have goals, which
is probably the fourth one, butI'm going to tie it in with the
third one, because they're notusing, if they do have goals,
(06:25):
they're not using them tovalidate the course before they
start building things.
Jackie Pelegrin (06:31):
Oh, wow Right.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (06:33):
They're not asking, like, if you took a
course on digital marketing,would improving your email
click-through rate be somethingthat you would want to work
toward as a goal, right?
They're not asking those veryspecific, concrete outcomes
types of questions and when you,I mean I feel like it's really
(06:55):
an opportunity, like they havesuch a great opportunity to
build a course that peopleactually want, instead of
feeling having students feellike the course is kind of
thrusted on them, like canhappen in higher education,
where, you know, we often designthings based on what we, what
we think they need to know,instead of what their goals are.
(07:16):
The course creation industry isreally this unique opportunity
to build something based on thechanges that people want to make
and the goals that they comewith to that space so important
right, kind of figuring outwhat's the?
Jackie Pelegrin (07:34):
almost like a backwards design right, where
you figure out what are theoutcomes, what are the goals of
what the learner wants, and thenyou build the course from there
and you figure out what thoseare, and so, yeah, that's so
important, yeah, that's theexact.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (07:49):
I take them through backwards design, my
clients.
I take them through backwardsdesign.
I don't call it that Right.
You know a lot of the shiftingfrom instructional design in
spaces where it's a known andexpected kind of language, right
Right Into a space where I'vehad to do some yelling about how
(08:12):
important course design is.
And the people that hear me andunderstand me the most are the
people that have built a coursethat didn't do.
Well, I do a lot of courseaudits because they come to me
and they say you know, I builtthis thing and I really thought
people were going to love it andthey can't even get past the
(08:32):
first module.
Jackie Pelegrin (08:34):
Oh wow, that's sad.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (08:36):
Oh yeah, and so that actually brings me
to number five.
And that's because there's nogetting started or start here or
like cohesive kind of this ishow the course works, like
sometimes there's a welcomevideo but it's not really a
navigation slash.
Take your time slash.
(08:58):
This is how much time thingsare going to take.
All of the things that I gotused to putting into a course in
higher education like thatstart here module.
It's so important, it's it'svery difficult to find in the
course creation industry, eventhe very so.
The very first course I boughton it was supposed to help me
(09:19):
get out of higher education andit was terrible.
There was no clear learningpath.
The modules had no.
There were no stepping stonesbetween things, there was no
transparency in why this builton that and there was no getting
(09:40):
started space at all.
I just started clicking on themodule in the upper left-hand
corner because that seemed likemaybe it was the place to start,
but it wasn't.
It wasn't the place to start.
Jackie Pelegrin (09:52):
So it wasn't logical in any logical order and
it almost felt like ahodgepodge of different elements
put together.
Right, but no, no sequence toit.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:03):
Yeah, exactly Exactly.
It wasn't a learning journey,it was just a dump of
information, oh gosh.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:09):
That's not good .
Because, then if the learnersdon't know where to start and
how to continue, okay, I'mbuilding upon something, I'm
learning as I go and I know whatmy end goal is.
If there's no clear path, itleaves them confused more than
ever, right Than when they is.
Yeah, there's no clear paththat leaves them confused more
than ever Right Then then whenthey started.
Yeah, that's true, exactly.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (10:29):
Yeah, For me it brought clarity, because I
was like oh, this is a gap.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:33):
Right, this is something I can.
I can actually help others tobe able to do a better job at
course creation and, yeah,that's so.
You saw a need.
You saw that.
That opportunity of being ableto fulfill that and make courses
better yeah, I love that that's.
That's a wonderful opportunityto be able to do that and to
(10:54):
make make these courses better.
So, no matter what someonewants to learn, they can have
that clear path and you knowthat they're going to be
successful with that and thecourse is going to be successful
too for all the learners.
So that's important, yeah, cool.
Yeah, I believe instructionaldesign in any type of realm or
course development.
(11:15):
It's supposed to help peoplereach their goals and help them
learn something that they didn'tknow before and be able to
apply that to their lives andtheir careers.
So it's definitely the type ofindustry and the type of
Education is so giving as anindustry as a whole.
(11:35):
So it's really nice to havethat opportunity to change lives
in so many great ways.
Yeah, it's wonderful.
Yeah, so how do you suggestthat course creators move from
that one-on-one to more groupcontent without losing the
personal touch?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (11:52):
My answer to this question is always
hybrid.
Yes, you know, as, as a subjectmatter expert, right, they know
the sticky points.
They know the places wherepeople that they work with
one-on-one get stuck Right andover on repeat and walking them
(12:27):
through the same questions andactivities and, in general, not
having to change what they'redoing very much from person to
person in similar sessions.
Those are the things that canstart to live in a horse.
And then the places where it'sreally sticky.
That's the place where you dothe one-on-one still until you
(12:48):
figure out and sometimes youwon't right, sometimes there's
just learning.
As you know, jackie, learningneeds to be just challenging
enough in order for it to feelworthwhile, in order for us to
actually learn the thing, and sosometimes that one-on-one piece
(13:09):
, it's that, it's that thingthat needs to be just
challenging enough and you needanother person to help you
through it.
Um, so that my recommendationis always to to do hybrid and
then to start with the thingsthat that go on, that go on
repeat, as the places where youstart to not evergreen, but kind
(13:35):
of things that are repeatablefrom person to person.
Jackie Pelegrin (13:40):
That's so true, looking for those areas where
there may be more.
Maybe more clarity is neededbecause you find that students
or learners will struggle incertain areas and you can kind
of anticipate that.
Or just after time, you see,okay, they're struggling with
this part, I to give away all ofit.
We want to create somechallenges at the same time, but
(14:04):
not not challenge them so muchthat they they stumble upon it
and they can't get past the nextto the next module, right?
So we want to exactly yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (14:13):
We want to exactly.
We want to remove the barriersthat don't need to be there,
right?
Like some barriers are thingsthat they need to overcome to
learn the thing, but some arejust barriers because we thought
it was a good thing to do, orwe forgot to caption our videos
or you know whatever else,whatever else we accidentally
did that created theseartificial barriers that don't
(14:36):
actually need to be there forlearning to happen.
Jackie Pelegrin (14:38):
Yeah, that's so true.
Yeah, Cause we don't.
Yeah, the last thing we want todo is have cognitive overload
and and then make themfrustrated.
And then they're like, ah,forget it, I'm going to give up
and just not, I'm not going todo this anymore.
And especially if they paid forthe course, I would imagine
that's got to be morefrustrating when they were like
(14:59):
wait, I can't even complete this, and you know I'll just take my
loss.
You wait, I can't even completethis and you know I'll just
take my loss.
You know that's when you knowit's not a good thing?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:07):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah.
And so many people like whenI'm in networking groups and I
talk about what I'm doing, I getso many nods when I talk about
courses that they have put onthe digital shelf and are
collecting dust becauseeverybody has them, them because
there's that many terriblydesigned courses in the course
(15:27):
creation industry, unfortunately.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:30):
Wow.
So they just kind of sit thereand don't really serve any
purpose, right?
They're just.
They're just, they're justtaking up digital space.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (15:39):
Yeah, yeah, basically making somebody have
to pay $100 a month for Kajabi,basically.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:45):
Wow, yeah, that's not cheap.
Yeah, yeah, that's tough, andespecially for an organization
that that's their lifeblood,right, and that's what they rely
on, and then having to shellout that extra money, that's not
a good return on investment oranything.
Yeah, that's true, wow.
So, as we know, ai technologyis continuing to make waves and,
(16:09):
of course, it's in education,it's in instructional design.
I use it every day.
It's an amazing thing, but thenthere's also the always the
downside to everything when itcomes to technology.
So are there any specific AItechnology tools that you find
helpful as you're working withclients to use during the course
creation process?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:30):
Yeah, I am a Claude gal, um, so I prefer
Claude for a variety of reasons,um, but I like being able to
build the projects and I just Ijust feel like it gives better
responses, and I just feel likeit gives better responses.
Jackie Pelegrin (16:43):
That's good.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (16:45):
I also, like in, I try to make my
services accessible, and so I dosometimes have things that are
more like guidebook, and so whenI have activities in there, I
do try to give AI prompts tohelp the people that buy it, so
that if they don't feel likethey need me, I'm replacing
(17:12):
myself.
We can't do that.
I have tried.
I have tried to get it to actlike an instructional designer,
and it's not a great output.
No matter which AI tool I use,I've noticed that too.
Yeah, also.
They don't know what they need,and so AI doesn't know that
either.
Jackie Pelegrin (17:26):
Right, that's true.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (17:28):
But I will often use it to get prompts to
give folks like.
This is the goal of theactivity.
How can I help someone use anyAI tool to kind of get something
so that they're not kind ofstaring at the blank page, right
, because that can be scary.
My background is in writing andso any kind of blank page is
(17:52):
scary to a lot of people.
I also I mean, they've beenusing AI for a while but I like
Adobe Premiere Pro for videoediting.
It just the ability to removeall of the pauses and the speech
to text for captioning is moreon point than any tool that I've
(18:15):
seen.
The only thing it spells wrongis my name, because it insists
that my name should be spelledwith a K Instead of a C.
Yeah, instead of a C.
Yeah, but yeah, I would saythose are my two top daily AI
tools.
That's great.
I also really like Perplexity,for if I'm having to fill in
(18:37):
some gaps in some places withresearch, I feel like Perplexity
is a really good tool for thattoo.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:44):
Wow, that's great.
I'll have to check out AdobePremiere Pro.
It's been a while since I'veused it and so I'll have to
check it out with the AI toolsthat are incorporated in it,
because Adobe has done such agreat job of integrating that in
there.
Like when they first came outwith Firefly, I had to check
that out.
I was like Ooh, image creationthis is neat and um, and some of
my students have beenmentioning Adobe express and how
(19:07):
they use that with theirstudents and it has AI built in
there too.
So it's it seems like they'vedone a good job of making it to
where it's integrated and itdoesn't feel like it's out of
place.
It's in good place?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (19:19):
Absolutely doesn't.
Jackie Pelegrin (19:21):
Yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (19:22):
I would say from a so, not an instructional
design perspective, but ifyou're going to try to help
course creators and go intobusiness for yourself, either as
a freelancer or solo proprietoror whatever it happens to be
(19:47):
appier a lot for automations andI was using it before they
integrated AI, and that tooldoesn't always call the thing
that is the trigger or theresult the same as all the other
tools it's integrated with, andso it could sometimes be like a
lot of trial and error tofigure out what to call
something, but their AIintegration has made that way
easier.
Wow, that's great yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:08):
Yeah, anything we can do to help with those
mundane tasks, right, that weused to do and automate some of
those things that I think that'swhere AI can really do a great
job of that.
Yeah, yeah.
And we in curriculumdevelopment we use it to just
come up with ideas for different, for, like topics, objectives.
(20:29):
Well, I mean, in program designwe come up with topics, but we
use it to come up withobjectives.
And we also take the coursedescription, pull that into AI
and say, based on this, can youcome up with some different
assignments and things like that.
So it's good at that because,as you know, like you said
earlier, subject matter expertsthat they're, they know what
(20:50):
they want, but it's just gettingto that outcome right of
figuring out how to, how to dothat and how to be able to do it
in authentic ways, so that thelearner feels like they have
that authentic experience andthat it's not just oh, I have to
write this essay.
I have to, you know, becausewriting is important, as we know
(21:10):
, but at the same time, givingthem that that real world
application is so important.
So being able to do that andhelp them not to feel like they
have to go to AI all the timeand feel like they can, yeah,
have that experience that makesit more authentic than feeling
like it's busy work, causethat's definitely not something
(21:31):
we want.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (21:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And and that's the case, thereare a lot of, I think.
I mean, teaching is hard, right, because we are excited about
the thing that we're teaching,and so it can be difficult to
make sure that we're tying itinto direct real world
applications, no matter whatindustry you're in.
(21:57):
That, I mean, that matters.
It matters to adults especially, but I would even argue it
matters to kids.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:04):
Right, that's so true.
Yeah, because when I thinkabout instructional design and
how diverse it is, you know youcan go into corporate, higher ed
, k through 12, military,nonprofit, and you think of all
of those different industriesand how they have similarities
but they also have differencestoo, you know.
I mean, if you, if you'rethinking of government or
(22:25):
military, their, their processesare different, right, and so
very different.
That, I think, is so importanttoo.
So, yeah, so it's veryinteresting when you kind of
look at the different ways thatinstructional designers can
embed themselves in differentareas, and so it's very
interesting, for sure.
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's cool.
(22:47):
And so the last question is isabout the most.
Most of my listeners arestudents, but I do have some
others that are noviceinstructional designers.
But I always like to ask youknow, what are some tips and
advice that you can share withthose that are currently in the
master's program ininstructional design at Grand
Canyon University?
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (23:18):
I, if you haven't taught a class, also
teach a class, because there's alot of value in being able to
see, kind of the wholetrajectory of a course from.
It doesn't have to be a courseyou designed either.
I mean there's a lot of valuein teaching a course that you
didn't design, but being able tosee every phase and step and
stage of the process, includingthe delivery of it.
Right, the teachers often dothe delivery of the online
(23:40):
course, and having that deliveryexperience will go a really
long way in being able to workwith subject matter experts in a
way where you actually getsomewhere.
I mean, I've heard you hearhorror stories, right, about
subject matter experts who don'twant to listen and they don't
understand.
(24:02):
Putting yourself into thatteaching seat can help you
better understand where they'recoming from.
So that would probably be myfirst piece of advice.
I also feel like you don't needto limit yourself to the
(24:22):
industries that people arealready working in, right?
Nobody thought that I was goingto leave higher education and
start helping people that sellcourses for a living.
Um, because there are not a lotof instructional designers out
there doing what I'm doing rightnow.
Um, a lot of the, a lot of thecourses that are out there um,
(24:46):
that have been out there for along time on how to create a
course, are actually designedand developed by marketers.
Oh wow, yeah, I mean, that's whywe're in the situation where
we're in.
Right, and you know, I don'tthink that people do it from a
place of, you know, trying totrick others.
(25:09):
I think that, even frompersonal experience, if you're
not taught to be a teacher oryou're not taught to be a
curriculum developer, then youtend to try to teach people in
the ways that you've been taught, and so they're mimicking what
their previous experiences are,even if they weren't great,
(25:29):
because they don't know whatelse to do.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:32):
Oh my gosh, that's so true.
I've noticed that with subjectmatter experts quite a bit.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Or they'll pick a textbook fora course because that's what
they had, or they had somethingsimilar to it.
I'm like, but is this reallythe best textbook for the course
?
And then they want to write thecourse around the textbook and
I'm like, wait a minute, but ifthe textbook, if we got the
(25:54):
cause, sometimes we lose rightsto the textbook as an
institution if the textbook goesaway, is the course still
valuable?
Can you still teach it withwhat's in there and can the
students still do the assignment?
And then when I asked them thatquestion, they're like, oh no,
not really.
And I'm like, okay, then youshouldn't build a course around
a textbook.
You know it, know it shouldjust be there to help them, you
(26:17):
know, further learn theinformation.
But it should never, yeah,should never be built around it.
And some of the some of themdon't realize that until you ask
them that question.
And then they're just like, oh,I see now, yeah, yeah, so true.
Yeah.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (26:32):
Folks are often shocked because the number
one thing people do is create abunch of content without
anything else.
Right, and so the note they'reoften shocked when I tell them
to to identify the actions first, like what are the things that
we're having them do, and thenonly pull in the content that's
going to support those actionsand activities so that they can
(26:55):
actually reach the goals.
Yeah, because informationwithout application is useless,
absolutely.
Jackie Pelegrin (27:04):
That is so true .
Yeah, I love that Great.
And I love the part youmentioned about teaching too,
because I've been aninstructional designer for 14
years, coming on going on 15.
Now I think, well, at the endof the year it'll be 15 years,
but then I've only been aninstructor in teaching the
(27:24):
instructional design courses forthree years.
So it's like wow, it took me awhile to get into that, because
where I've been working, I kepttrying and then I wasn't getting
in.
And then they, finally, youknow, five years ago, they they
started offering theinstructional design program
because I was looking elsewhereand they wanted someone.
If I was going to teach at amaster's level, they wanted me
(27:44):
to have a doctorate, and I waslike, well, I don't know if I
want to go back to school againto do that and uh, but yeah, it
was kind of interesting.
And then they had that andthey're like, oh, we'll apply
for the position.
And I'm like, all right, I'llapply.
And so I agree, it's made me abetter instructional designer,
being able to teach and see howeven though I don't get to work
(28:05):
on the instructional designcourses I work in another
college but being able to seethat process, because I kept
hearing the same things over andover again from instructors,
like students don't know how towrite very well and they don't
know how to do these differentthings.
And I was so shocked by thatand I was like, really, that
doesn't, that's just seems weird.
How would they be able to getinto a master's program and take
(28:27):
master's level courses withoutknowing how to write?
Well, that just blew my mind.
But then when I startedteaching the courses, I was like
, oh my gosh, I know exactlywhat they're talking about now.
So it just really opens up youreyes to that.
And then you get to kind ofvalidate what they've been
telling you all along.
So yeah, it's amazing Also.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (28:48):
I'm going to just point this out the
discipline of writing studies,their own teaching, and so going
and looking at all of theresearch or not, don't do all
the research, it's been decadesand decades but looking at the
research that's done in writingstudies and incorporating that
(29:09):
into every single class wouldprobably be really useful.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:14):
That's a good idea.
I love that.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (29:16):
Yeah, maybe not in the course creation
industry, but just like inhigher education, because most
of the time when there'scomplaints about students not
knowing how to write, it'sbecause they haven't been taught
how to write in that discipline.
And so if you take what we knowabout the teaching of writing
(29:38):
and pull it into your owndiscipline and there's a whole
area called writing across thedisciplines and writing in the
disciplines and starting to pullthose things in can help
students learn how to write inyour particular discipline.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:53):
Wow, that's amazing.
I'll have to pass that alongbecause, yeah, you're right,
different disciplines do need towrite differently, because a
lot of what I work on is thesocial sciences areas, so
counseling, social work,psychology, and so they do have
to have some writing in there,but it's mostly like case notes
(30:15):
and you know things like that,but it's very much case study
heavy and then they have toanalyze it, write about it,
things like that.
But it's interesting because incounseling they want them to
always write an APA.
I'm like, ok, interesting, butwill they write an APA out in?
the field and when they're intheir agency?
Probably not, maybe I don'tknow, but yeah, it's very
(30:41):
interesting how they want tostill have that academic setting
of it.
Yeah, and I'm like that'sinteresting.
So, yeah, that's so true, youknow, being able to write in
that what that industry writesand, yeah, being able to
replicate that as much as youcan, yeah, that's so important.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (30:52):
My favorite example is you mentioned the
military earlier my favoriteexample is memos, Because memos
in the military look very, verydifferent than memos in the
business world, and so really Imean it really just does depend
on the area that you're tryingto write in and having to learn
(31:13):
what those expectations areRight.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:22):
That's true.
Yeah, yeah, the government isis different than business, uh,
in so many ways.
Yeah, they write for, they'rewriting for a different purpose,
right, so it's, it's different,it has to be different in that
that aspect.
That's true.
Wow, yeah, you learn, uh,different industries and you're
like, oh yeah, that's not quitethe same and so you can't can't
treat it as a one size fits allor anything like that.
No size fits all for adults,it's.
(31:52):
Yeah, we can't assume thatevery adult knows this
information, and so I have toremind SMEs of that too.
Like, do they?
Can we really assume that theyknow this already?
And, yeah, because adults comein at different levels and yeah,
it's so true, yeah, that's whatmakes it both challenging and
(32:13):
fun.
Yeah, that's what makes it bothchallenging and fun.
Right, exactly, I agree, youknow, yeah, it's it.
You're always kept on your toeswhen it comes to this industry
and, no matter what type of workyou do, it's yeah, it's
definitely keeps you active.
And job security I always saythat it's job security.
(32:34):
Yeah, absolutely.
And creativity.
Dr. Catrina Mitchum (32:36):
I feel like you know sometimes you have to
be so creative to get somethingto work the way that your
subject matter expert wants itto work, based on what they have
access to and don't have accessto, and so I find it.
You know, thinking about thechallenges as ways to be
creative goes a long way.
Jackie Pelegrin (32:59):
Absolutely Right and then bringing their
vision to life right.
So they have this idea of whatthey want.
They just don't know how tobring it to life, and so we're
there to help bring it to lifein the most meaningful way, so
that it's learner-centered, andthat's so important to make it
learner-centered.
Yeah, that's something I alwaysremind the subject matter
(33:19):
experts about.
I'm like you have to make sureit's centered on the learner and
that it's not just some wishlist that we have, but that it
really is going to help them.
Yeah, that's great, wonderful.
Was there anything else youwanted to share with my
listeners today that you canthink of?
I feel like we covered a lot.
(33:50):
Get so much knowledge out ofthis and they'll be able to
really know that they can jumpinto this career, no matter what
area they go into, and it takestime.
But I think, with that passionand that go-to attitude, I know
that a lot of my listeners willbe able to go into the field and
(34:12):
feel like they can really makea difference and help learners
advance their knowledge andtheir skills as well.
So it's exciting.
That's why we're all here.
Yes, exactly, I don't thinkinstructional design is going
anywhere anytime soon.
If anything, it's going to keepadvancing and growing and
gaining popularity.
Because whenever people ask mewhat I do for a living, it's
(34:33):
interesting because I sayinstructional design and I think
it's still kind of new topeople.
They don't know what that isand I'll say what is that?
And so when I tell them what itis and then they go, ah, they
have the aha moment, like oh,that's what that is.
And I'm like, yeah, that's whatit is.
So it's exciting to help peopleeven learn what the field is
about.
(34:53):
So, yeah, it's exciting.
And when they see that you'reexcited and you know your work
and you have a passion for it,it just makes it even better.
It's exciting, great Well,thank you so much again for your
time and I appreciate it.
Yeah, thanks for having me,you're welcome.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
(35:14):
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
I'm truly thankful for you.
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