September 24, 2025 • 39 mins
Shannon Boyer shatters the myth of passive income in online education, revealing why high-quality courses require active engagement and student-centered design. Drawing from her 17 years of experience developing innovative college programs, she now helps purpose-driven entrepreneurs transform their expertise into meaningful learning experiences.
Shannon's passion for student success shines through as she discusses the critical components many course creators mistakenly eliminate: guided practice and explicit implementation instructions. She shares a personal experience taking an online course that left her unable to implement what she'd learned, illuminating why feedback and human connection remain essential even in digital learning environments. When transitioning from one-on-one teaching to group formats, maintaining these personal touches becomes even more crucial.
Whether you're creating online courses, developing curriculum, or exploring instructional design careers, this episode provides valuable insights on balancing structure with creativity, standardization with personalization, and efficiency with effectiveness. How will you apply these principles to create learning experiences that truly transform your students?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips, and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello, GCU students, alumni,and fellow educators, welcome to
episode 49 of the Designingwith Love podcast.
(00:22):
Today, I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Shannon L Boyer, an
award-winning educator,curriculum strategist, and
entrepreneur.
Welcome, Shannon.
Thanks, I'm so happy to be here.
Yes, me too.
I'm so glad we got to connect.
So can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Shannon Boyer (00:38):
Sure.
So, like you said, my name isShannon Boyer and I currently am
working in the online spacewith purpose-driven
entrepreneurs who want to taketheir skills and talents and
expertise and move them into theonline space, usually as a way
of expanding their business andsharing what they know with
(00:59):
others.
And the reason I saypurpose-driven entrepreneurs and
we can get into this a wholelot more is because there's so
much talk in the online spaceabout passive income, and I
strongly believe that there'snothing passive about education.
It's a very active process, andso what I focus on is people
(01:21):
who really care about gettingresults for their students and
they want to create a highquality course, and what I talk
about is high touch, highquality, high impact online
course that focuses on theresults of their students,
because ultimately, that iswhat's going to lead to the
success of their course andtheir business in general.
So that's what I do in mybusiness.
(01:42):
I've been doing that for abouttwo and a half years, and I
moved into that space two and ahalf years ago because I had two
kids in my 40s during thepandemic and had a real shift in
where I wanted to focus my timeand my flexibility of my time
(02:02):
in my work, my flexibility of mytime in my work.
Prior to that, I was working ata college for about 17 years.
I had the opportunity ofstarting a brand new program at
the college and teaching and itwas very innovative programming
and I won an award for my workin that program before I moved
(02:23):
into administration and thentook that curriculum development
program development experienceand started working and leading
teams of people.
I was responsible for a timefor instructor support and with
a lot of mentoring new teachers,mentoring and evaluating
existing instructors, helpingwith curriculum development,
(02:45):
leading teams of curriculumdevelopers, starting more
innovative programming and thenalso for a time I was
responsible for student successand engagement, which is another
thing that I'm really, reallypassionate about and you'll see
that in my work now, focusing onthe results of students.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:02):
So yeah, that's kind of me Neat.
So you took a lot of yourexperience and moved that over
into your business and stillkeeping that student-centered
approach, which is so importantbecause it can be easy, as we
know, to think about what do thefaculty or the instructors want
?
And I've noticed that in mytime being in curriculum design
and development that it tends tobe.
(03:24):
You have to kind of separateright what's preference, what's
when, what do the studentsreally need and what's going to
help them be successful in theirfuture career.
So, yeah, that's great that youbrought that student-centered
approach to your work now.
So that's great, I love that.
Shannon Boyer (03:40):
Yeah, absolutely, because.
So two things.
One is, when I started when Iwas, you know, on maternity
leave and up all night trying tostay awake I started watching
online courses.
That's kind of how I got intothis world is I noticed there
were a lot of people who had alot of like skills and
experience and expertise, butthey didn't have the teaching
background to know how toeffectively and efficiently put
(04:02):
that into a course that wasgoing to get results for their
students, and it wasn't anyfault of their own.
It's just that sometimes Ialways say teaching is the only
profession in the world I feellike where people think, well,
because I've been a student for12, 14, 16, however many years
I've watched it happen that Ican go and do it and there's
that pervasive message butpeople don't realize, like, how
(04:25):
much goes on behind the scenesand what actually goes into, you
know, effective teaching.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:31):
Right.
Shannon Boyer (04:32):
Nobody thinks I've been a patient my entire
life, so I can now go and be adoctor.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:36):
It's very unique in that way right.
Shannon Boyer (04:40):
Yeah, and then in the online space, if you know,
on my Instagram anyway, it's allfull of do nothing, work less,
make tons of money, spend yourdays on the beach, blah, blah,
blah, blah, and it's all about,like, what the business owner
wants work less to make moremoney but nobody's ever thinking
(05:01):
about the student side of itand like, what does the student
not only want but need, and it'sjust so critical.
So, yeah, when I started movinginto this space, I just saw a
huge gap in the understanding ofwhat goes into a quality course
and in terms of just theassumptions that were being made
(05:22):
that's amazing.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:24):
So you saw that need and that gap and you're
working to fill it.
So that's wonderful.
I love that, exactly.
Yeah, so we talked about someof the mistakes.
What are some of those topmistakes that course creators
make that, you see?
Shannon Boyer (05:37):
So one of the biggest mistakes I see course
creators make is thinking thatit is fast and easy to make an
online course, and I thinkanybody in your world knows that
that's absolutely not true.
So that's one of the firstmistakes that I have to dispel,
because people that coupled withyou know that sitting down in
(05:58):
front of a PowerPoint or Canva,you know slide deck is step one,
and I always say to peoplethat's like 50%, like 50% of the
work comes before you sit downwith that, you know slide deck
or whatever it is, and so, andthen people think because it's
difficult for them, right?
They've been sold this ideathat it's easy to do, that you
(06:19):
just put sticky notes up andorganize your sticky notes and
then you can create your courseand it's not so easy.
And then they think there'ssomething wrong with them and
they think that, you know, maybethey're not cut out for it or
whatever, and they don't havethe confidence behind what
they're putting forward.
And so I think that that'sreally really key is to just
(06:42):
know upfront like it's not easyand it does take a lot of work.
So I think that's number one.
I think the other thing, too, isthe sticky notes.
Part of it is, you know, notusing frameworks and existing
structures and processes tocreate the curriculum because
(07:05):
they are so well, not only arethey based in like good pedagogy
, andragogy, whatever, but thatthey are like kind of the the
hat, the coat rack to hang yourhat on.
You know, like they're thestructure, the framework, they
give you the process so that notonly can you organize your
ideas and you know what comesnext and you're not just
(07:28):
floating out in this world ofambiguity, but it also gives you
the confidence that you've doneit in quote, unquote the right
way.
I don't believe in like oneright way, but that's part of
where people's lack ofconfidence there's a lot of talk
about imposter syndrome in theonline space and that's where a
lot of it comes from is becauseyou're just guessing.
So I think you know using thoseestablished frameworks,
(07:51):
structures, processes to helpguide you in the curriculum
process is just so critical formaking sure you have a high
quality course, but also theconfidence behind it.
Jackie Pelegrin (08:01):
So important.
We do that a lot in curriculumdevelopment too.
Yeah, and with instructionaldesign, relying on those
evidence-based frameworks, yeah,it's so important to do that
and I remind that with mystudents all the time make sure
you're, you know you're, you'regoing to something, whether it's
one or two models or theoriesor frameworks that you know will
(08:23):
work.
If you're looking at evaluationof a course, make sure you use
something like Kirkpatrick'smodel of evaluation or something
like that, so you know that youknow it's.
If it's Addy or something else,whatever it is, you know you
know.
Make sure that it's.
It has it's something that'sestablished and has that
evidence-based to it.
So you know.
Shannon Boyer (08:43):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's you don't have to
reinvent the wheel, at least asa starting point.
Because I think for myself, Ikind of take now that I'm so
experienced, I've done this forso long, I kind of take
different models and meld themtogether, use hybrids of
different things and tailor itfor the situation, because you
know, everyone has its pros andcons, every situation has its
(09:05):
nuances and that kind of a thing.
So, yeah, especially when you'rebeginning, start out with those
tried and true frameworks andthen, as you become more
experienced and you start tounderstand them better, then you
can massage them and, you know,start to make them work for you
.
And I think at the beginning itcan feel maybe too regimented
or restrictive or like theprocess is too, yeah, regimented
(09:30):
and restricted.
Yeah Right, I think peoplesometimes like rebel against it
because it's like constrainingtheir creativity or whatever.
But when you're first startingout, it's so important to things
about Addy and they want to goto Sam and I'm like, but Sam is
for rapid development and youmay not always be doing rapid
development and you may notalways have that constant
(09:59):
collaboration where you can dothat iterative design and
development.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:03):
So I always let them know.
There's benefits, like you said, benefits and drawbacks to
every model.
So, yeah, I like that approachof being able to, once you know
them well enough, you can kindof take pieces from each one and
make something that works foryou and works for the project.
Shannon Boyer (10:19):
Absolutely, and I think you need to have that
experience before you can dothat, because you don't always
necessarily understand exactlywhy it's done in that way or in
that order, or you know whateverin that order or you know
whatever, and through experienceyou start to understand more of
those nuances and like what canbe left behind, what needs to
be kept in, what's critical andall of those kinds of things.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:39):
Right, that's so important, yeah, yeah.
Shannon Boyer (10:42):
And then I think, another mistake.
I'll wrap up with one moremistake that I see, especially
in the online space.
Well, we can probably talkabout two more, but anyway
missing out on the opportunityfor guided practice and explicit
implementation.
So often and I guess this kindof ties into the to the other
(11:05):
thing I was going to say aboutyou know, with the I do, we do,
you do kind of gradual releaseof responsibility model that we
do step gets missed out so much.
And often, in an effort to likespeed things up, there's a lot
of like cut the fluff and justgive them what they want.
(11:28):
And I mean absolutely youshould make sure that whatever's
in the course is directlyrelated to the outcome of the
course, and you know taking outwhatever is extraneous and
overwhelming and not necessary.
You know that's an importantstep, but I find that sometimes
with people again it's likemessing with the model before
you really understand it.
So many times I see peopletrying to take out the fluff but
(11:50):
what they think is the fluff isnot really fluff, it's actually
really critical.
I heard somebody say like Idon't ever tell my students why
they're learning something orwhy something is important,
because they don't want to knowor need to know, they just need
to do it.
And I was like alarm bells aregoing off in my head because I'm
like that's not fluff, you'renot getting out fluff, so it's
(12:14):
you know.
And so again, it's like justtelling people what to do and
then expecting that they'regoing to be able to go and do it
without that middle part of thescaffold, the learning, the
guided practice, the we do partof that.
I see people either don't evenknow many times it's like they
(12:35):
don't even know that that stepis there, or that that's a thing
or unintentionally cutting itout because they don't realize
the importance of it.
And then, I think, going to theapplication part again, for a
lot of us, even seasonedinstructors and teachers, there
is sometimes an assumption thatbecause we've told somebody what
(12:58):
to do, that they will be numberone, be able to go and do it
and number two, intrinsicallyknow that they should go and do
it.
And I think that that finalstep to implementation and
application needs to be a lotmore facilitated and explicit
than we think it really does.
(13:19):
It makes so much sense to usLike I've shown you how to do
this, now go do it, but weactually have to say now, go do
it.
This is what I want you to do,this is how I want you to do it,
this is how you can apply it toyour life and facilitate that
process.
Jackie Pelegrin (13:34):
So not making assumptions that someone knows
what to do.
Yeah, it's kind of like withthat.
I just did a podcast episode nottoo long ago about adult
learning theories and I came upwith some myths common myths
that happened and one of themyths was that adults don't like
group work.
Well, that's not always true.
(13:55):
They do like to.
They just want it to bemeaningful and and and apply to
what they're doing.
So it's kind of interesting how, yeah, we tend to make those
assumptions or common mistakesthat we think, oh, all learners
are going to be like that andthey don't want that.
Shannon Boyer (14:11):
But yeah, I just had a conversation with someone
this morning and it was exactlylike that, because I was trying
to talk to her about theimportance of providing feedback
and being available to yourstudents, like having a live
aspect of her course.
Because, again, people are soldon this idea of, like, you
create this thing.
(14:31):
Once you put it online, itmakes you millions of dollars
and you never have to touch itagain.
You just lay on the beach, andthat was.
She was like this, that's whatI want for my business, and I
was like, well, but that's notwhat your students need.
And her response was well, Idon't like the interaction, I
don't like that.
When I have to, you know, whenthere's a live aspect of a
(14:51):
course, I just want to do it bymyself, and so I think that's.
You know, you've touched onanother mistake, which is
thinking that the way you preferto learn is the way other
people prefer to learn, or maybeeven the best way to learn.
Everybody learns in differentways, so it's really important
that I think we need to look atwhat have you found beneficial
in courses that you've taken?
(15:12):
What has been lacking incourses that you've taken?
I think that experience as astudent is really critical, but
we can't make the assumptionthat the way we prefer to learn
is the way other people preferto learn and making all our
decisions based on that.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:28):
Right, oh, so true, absolutely.
So into our next question.
Kind of goes into that groupcomponent.
Shannon Boyer (15:35):
So how do?
Jackie Pelegrin (15:35):
you suggest.
Course creators move from thatone-on-one to more group content
without losing that personaltouch that sometimes can happen.
Shannon Boyer (15:43):
Yeah, perfect segue, because that was kind of
like the conversation that I washaving with this client.
She had been working one-on-onewith people and now wanted to
go from one-to-one toone-to-many.
That is a common journey forpeople in the online space.
They start doing coaching andconsulting one-on-one.
Pretty soon they max outbecause they don't have any more
hours in their day or they wantto become more flexible, and
(16:08):
then they go into thatone-to-many situation, which is
where you have that onlinecourse and then you can support
people through more group liveinteractions.
And so one of the things that Ithink is really critical when
you're doing that is number oneto make sure that you have the
live component.
(16:28):
I think that is a reallycritical piece.
You know, we talk about AI, wetalk about all these different
kinds of online learning, but wecan't take out the humanness of
it.
And referring back to that sameclient, what was really
interesting is that we weregoing back and forth and at the
end of the conversation she waslike thank you so much, this has
(16:49):
been really helpful.
You know, she kind of decidedshe didn't want to do that live,
but there were other thingsthat I helped her with and gave
her a different perspective on,and I replied back to her and I
said that's the power ofpersonalized feedback.
Like you have just provenexactly what I've said.
Like you don't want to do itfor your students, but we've
(17:10):
just proven here how meaningfuland valuable it was for you and
how much you were able toaccomplish in a short period of
time because of having myexpertise look at your situation
and your work.
So that personal touch, thosepersonal interactions, those
(17:37):
personal interactions, thatability to access the quote
unquote expert.
There is just something abouthaving the eyes of the expert
I'm going to call the instructorthe expert in this situation on
your work and giving youfeedback.
Again, that's another thingthat gets stripped away when we
are moving into the online spaceor we're talking about some of
the you know kind of coursesthat I work with is people are
like it's too much work, don'twant to do that.
(18:01):
I got into this to be hands offand again I'm like no, you've
been fed the wrong message.
You are here to help people.
You are here to serve people.
You are here to help themachieve a goal and achieve an
outcome.
You are here to help themachieve a goal and achieve an
outcome and that criticalcomponent of giving people
feedback is so important.
(18:21):
I took a course myself.
It was an online course onFacebook ads.
I decided I want to start doingFacebook ads and it was on
demand.
So it was just, you know,modules, lessons that I accessed
on my own, pre-recorded, nolive interactions, nothing.
And it was very step by stepand it was.
(18:41):
This was another course wherethey said we've stripped all the
fluff, we're not going to wasteyour time, we're just going to
give you what you need.
And so I diligently wentthrough step by step click here,
do this.
And then they said okay, nowpublish.
And I was like what you want meto press publish?
This is going to cost me money.
I don't know if I have done itcorrectly.
I don't know if I have a goodad.
(19:03):
You've given me no criteria orquality to even do a
self-evaluation to figure out ifI have implemented what you've
taught properly.
I'm not pressing publish.
I have no confidence in whatI've quote unquote learned.
And so, again, it was a hugeopportunity that had been missed
(19:24):
there and assumptions that hadbeen made that, because I
trusted them enough to pay forthe course, I was going to trust
the outcome.
But it's not about that, it'snot about trust, it's about I'm
still learning and I'm not goingto learn every single step
perfectly the way you havepresented it.
I need that feedback for, like,yes, you've done this part
(19:47):
properly, but you haven't donethat properly.
Or you know improvement can bemade here and there, or you know
improvement can be made hereand there.
So, yeah, I think, keeping thehumanness, keeping the
connection, building therelationships, taking the
(20:08):
opportunity to get involved withstudents, and then making sure
that you don't skip out on thatimportant feedback point and
that the feedback shouldn'talways be written that important
feedback point and that thefeedback shouldn't always be
written, you know, sometimes youcan give someone a lot more
effective and valuable feedbackin another form instead of.
I think back to my days in thecollege.
Now, you know constructors werealways complaining like it
takes too much time to givefeedback, like let's just do
(20:33):
self-marking, multiple choice,because it's so much easier for
us, but you're not getting thesame outcomes.
And so I think really you haveto evaluate, like what is the
outcome that you want and what'sreasonable?
They have to be balanced rightwhat's reasonable for the
expectations of the instructoralong with what is necessary for
the students to achieve thatoutcome, that promise.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:58):
Yeah, that's so important because you want to
make sure you're giving theright feedback at the right time
, but then not overwhelminginstructors either.
So, yeah, it's the rightbalance, absolutely yeah.
And making sure that whoever'screating the course, you know
that they still have thatopportunity to have that freedom
that they're looking for, butnot so much.
So right that they still havethat opportunity to have that
freedom that they're looking for, but not so much so right that
they don't give the studentswhat they need in the course.
(21:19):
And keeping it student centeredis so important.
Yeah, even in that space, yeah.
Shannon Boyer (21:25):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I was very lucky.
Early on in my career I workedfor a nonprofit.
I started teaching, I leftteaching.
I worked for a nonprofit andthe nonprofit, every single
thing they did in, every singledecision they made, was framed
through the lens of what's inthe best interest of the client.
And so when I went back toteaching and I went to the
college, I just naturally andsubconsciously redirected that
(21:50):
to what is in the best interestof the student and it was just.
It framed my whole career and Ireally credit the success that
I had and am continuing to haveas keeping the student and
what's in the best interest ofthe student at the forefront.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:08):
That's great.
I love that.
You talked a little bit aboutAI, so I thought we could touch
a little bit on that, so isthere any specific AI technology
that you can recommend that youfind helpful during the course
creation process?
Shannon Boyer (22:20):
all of these different tools are multiplying
daily and I am not an expert inthose at all, but it's
(22:44):
interesting because I do use itin my business.
Now it's come so far in such ashort period of time.
It's amazing.
I mean, you can go back tofairly recent podcast episodes
that I've done, maybe even justa year ago, where I was
suggesting people don't use itbecause it's going to, you know,
just water down and make yourcourse generic instead of having
it be uniquely you andhighlighting your expertise and
keeping that special sauce yoursand just so many other things
(23:07):
that were going wrong.
You know, a year, a year and ahalf ago, um, but things are
changing just so quickly, um,it's not even, it's not even
funny, um, and so what I'veactually done in my own business
is I've created my own customGPTs, um, and what I do?
Yeah, I have Chester, thecourse creator, and Lester, the
(23:27):
lesson planner, and I use themwithin my own business.
So, tester, the course creator,I use myself with my one-on-one
clients because I feel like itneeds the knowledge that I have
to use it properly and to getthe outcome that I'm looking for
for my clients.
But it really I've programmedit with certain frameworks and
(23:50):
principles and structures andthings that I believe in and use
with my clients, and so that'sa tool that I've created that I
use myself and then Lester thelesson planner I give my clients
access to through my onlinecommunity.
They have gone through thecourse mapping and the module
(24:14):
outlining process.
It takes them through thelesson planning process so that
they can then take that on tomaking their slides and creating
their videos and things likethat.
So the reason I did thattwofold I've trained them so
that my clients slash studentshave to input the content.
One of the problems with usingChatTPT is that it provides so
(24:37):
much content that looks good,sounds good, is very appealing,
that it almost makes us likediscount what we know or what we
thought or where we were goingwith something Like it's just
too easy, it just looks toopretty, and so that's why a year
ago I was saying don't use it,because I was seeing people just
(24:58):
start to go with whatever itsaid, and it's really hard to
have that critical lens that youneed to have when using an AI
tool when it's presented sobeautifully for you.
And so that's what I've done isI've trained my tools that the
students slash.
Clients have to input content,they have to be the one putting
in the knowledge, the expertise,and then what it really does is
(25:20):
help them with the organizationof it, helps them brainstorm
different guided practiceactivities, applications, things
like that.
So I really see it as a tooland that it needs to be used as
a tool.
I know other people frame it asan assistant or a co-creator.
I like to use me as theco-creator more so when I use
(25:44):
Chester with my clients, I waskind of like equate it to like a
DJ mixing table.
I don't know if that's whatthey're called, but if you can
envision, like the two recordsyou got, the DJ and the two
records, the GPT is really likethat mixing table.
So I bring in all of myexpertise in curriculum
development and they bring intheir expertise, like the
(26:04):
subject matter expertise, andthen the GPT is what mixes them
and really makes two headsbetter than one Really brings
those two things together.
Because before this when I wasworking with my clients
one-on-one, it was a difficultprocess and I'm sure some of
your students and listeners haveexperienced that when you're
(26:26):
the curriculum expert and you'reworking with the subject matter
expert and there's this gulf ofuh, you know, knowledge that's
that's missing.
They don't really understandyour process, you don't 100
understand their expertise andyou're trying to co-create
something together.
Um, it can be sometimes a verychallenging process, so this
(26:48):
just facilitates it.
It just facilitates it becauseit creates the mixing space for
those two things to cometogether really seamlessly.
It still needs all the criticalthinking and makes the
decisions from the you know,curriculum development
perspective, and then I want mystudents making the decisions,
(27:19):
my clients making the decisionsfrom their expertise and their
perspective.
Jackie Pelegrin (27:25):
I like that.
That's great.
Yeah, we have our own AI toolthat we use in curriculum
development and it's a closedsystem AI, so that way we don't
have to worry about thecurriculum getting out into the
worldwide web and the chat GPTand it's interesting, we have
this phrase that we use.
It's called the first draftprinciple, so, and it's
something that students knowabout too, because they get
(27:47):
there, they're going to beintroduced to the tool.
There's some different GPTmodels that they use for
healthcare and for education,and so it's really neat.
But I always let them know thisis the first pass.
You're still the, you know,you're still the expert.
I'm taking your survey data andI'm putting it in and I'm
getting a first draft of aprogram description and
competencies.
(28:08):
But you have to massage it.
You have to be the ones toreally finesse it and make sure
that it meets the outcomes andthat it makes sense.
So yeah.
Shannon Boyer (28:18):
I agree yeah absolutely you have to make sure
that it makes sense, and Ithink that that's why probably
the next step will be more ofthose tools for evaluating that
first draft right and likemaking sure that you, like you
have you checked that theorganization makes sense,
because sometimes, although it'sreally good at organizing, I've
(28:40):
had it switch things around andI'm like, why did you switch
those two things around?
That makes no sense the way youdid it.
And it comes back.
It's like you're 100% correct.
The way you're doing it is muchbetter than the way I did it.
So, yeah, I think we're thinkthat will kind of be.
The next step is having more ofthose systems of evaluation for
the outputs that we get fromthese AI models.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:03):
Absolutely yeah , because I was kind of getting
an outline for some differentmodels and I was doing one on
Mayer's 12 multimedia principlesand chat GPT started.
It started hallucinating and itand it confused Merrill's first
principles of instruction withMayer's 12 principles because
they had principles in it andMayer and Merrill are, so you
(29:27):
know, similar that when Istarted looking at them'm like
wait a minute.
It started with the fivemirrors, five principles, and
then it started going into amayor's like multimedia
principles, like coherence, andI'm like, wait a minute, no,
this is not right.
So it melded the two togetherand I'm like, okay, try this
again.
And then it was like, oh yeah,you're right, it didn't.
So I'm like yeah my littlevirtual assistant didn't didn't
(29:50):
quite get it the first time.
Shannon Boyer (29:51):
Yeah Well, and that's why I always laugh when
you know there's one inparticular that I always one
company in particular.
It's always up on my Instagramand they're like use our GPT to
create a course in five days,make millions.
And it's like, but if you don'thave the expertise to be able
to do exactly what you just didin that situation and not take
it at face value and understandlike, oh, wait a minute, there's
(30:13):
like issues here and there aremuch bigger issues that that
happen with it as well You'rejust, you're not, you're just
gonna get garbage.
And also, I think, like peopletalk a lot about, you know
nothing new under the sun thatpeople want to take courses from
us because of the way wepresent it, because of our
background, knowledge and ourexperience and the our
(30:35):
perspective and and the twistthat we're putting on things,
and you want to make sure youdon't lose that, because then
otherwise it's just everything.
Everything is the same.
So I think, like finding waysto really keep that uniqueness
and in your case I would say sayum, something like going back
to what you said earlier ofstill leaving that space for the
(30:57):
instructor to have theirperspective and their experience
come through is really critical.
So you want to be creating acourse that can be duplicated
and that the consistency isthere and any kind of
accreditation.
You know processes are stillbeing adhered to and students
can depend that whether they goto this instructor or that
(31:19):
instructor, they're receivingthe same quality of education.
But I believe that it's reallyimportant to still leave this
space within those courses forthe instructor's expertise and
perspective to shine through aswell.
Otherwise you might as wellhave a robot up there teaching
it.
It needs to keep the humanness.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:39):
Yeah, that's something that GCU has is we
have a centralized curriculum,so they have a master course
shell and then all the sectionsget built out.
With that and with withthecampus instructors, they get
more flexibility and autonomy.
Online not as much, but theystill they're expected to add,
you know, to that, add a littlebit of their flavor to that.
(32:00):
But it's nice because, like yousaid, from one course to the
next in that program the studentknows what they can expect,
where things are going to be,and so they know they're going
to get, you know, not always anassignment, but they know
they're going to get discussion,questions and online and they
know they're where things aregoing to be housed and it's not
different from one course to thenext, because that can be
(32:20):
challenging for students yeah,if they don't know what to
expect and so it's reallyinteresting.
But I always say to the facultythat are working on the
curriculum with us I'm like justbecause we package it up for
you in this nice little bowdoesn't mean that's all you do.
And you just work, you know,try to enhance it and add to it.
So it's so important I do thatwith my classes too.
(32:43):
I add to it and make sure it'sgot a little bit of Jackie in it
.
Shannon Boyer (32:47):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, that's what they
created.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that'swhat makes it interesting and
(33:17):
engaging and keeps students, youknow, motivated and wanting to
persist with the course, becauseit's really important that you
know, we focus on thestandardization of quality
without losing the I don't evenknow how to phrase it but
there's a different level ofquality that the person teaching
it brings and we can't leavethat out.
Jackie Pelegrin (33:30):
Right, you don't want to stifle that
creativity in that sense that'sgreat.
Shannon Boyer (33:35):
Well, and I will just go so far as to say also
that that's a lot of like themotivation and professional
satisfaction that the personteaching it gets as well is
being able to have that creative.
I think course creation is sucha creative outlet and, you know
, allowing them to have thatcreativity and put themselves in
it and share that part ofthemselves, it's really
(33:57):
important for the instructor aswell as for the student.
Jackie Pelegrin (34:00):
Right, that's so true.
So, as you know, I have a lotof listeners that are either in
the program here at Grand CanyonUniversity in instructional
design or they're noviceinstructional designers.
It's funny because my podcastit was meant to be for my
students to give them thatopportunity to have, in a way
where you know if you go to aclass on campus, sometimes the
(34:23):
instructor will have a guestspeaker come in, and so this was
that opportunity to kind ofmirror that for my online
students and give them a littlebit of taste of that and have
some experts come in.
But now I've got listeners allover the world, which is I never
, never thought it would have,you know, grown to that.
But it's nice because now Ihave novice instructional
designers or others that want togo into course creation or
(34:44):
become learning developers andthings like that.
So what kind of advice can youshare with those that are
currently in the master'sprogram and they're looking to
go into instructional design ormaybe into what you're doing?
Shannon Boyer (34:56):
Yeah, I think that that's probably the best
advice that I can give is justkeep your options open.
There are so many different waysthat you can apply your
knowledge and what you havelearned.
So many different opportunities, your knowledge and what you
have learned, so many differentopportunities.
Industries um, yeah, just thesky is the limit when it comes
(35:17):
to job opportunities.
And, um, just as we've beentalking out through most of this
um program about that humanfactor and what makes you unique
, um, continue to hone in onthat and come up with I I don't
know if I can call it your style, because we've also talked
about, you know, using theframeworks and everything like
that but you want to have kindof that signature style and be
(35:41):
able to present that and havethat be what is valuable about
you as we're moving forward inthis AI age that we really don't
know what's going to happen.
But, yeah, so that's my bestadvice, I think, is don't
pigeonhole yourself.
Keep your options open, keepyour eyes open there's so many
opportunities and then make sureyou keep your secret sauce,
(36:06):
special sauce, and continue todevelop your signature style.
I would call it I like that.
Jackie Pelegrin (36:11):
That's great.
It reminds me of one of mystudents I'm teaching the
Capstone class right now for mystudents and one of them she
actually inspired me to actuallyupdate some of my branding and
stuff, and so she has aconsistent style for her
portfolio website and then itcarries over into her Instagram
and her LinkedIn and so thatthat whole entire brand and and
(36:36):
so her last name is Nix, and soshe's like Nix Bad Design is her
.
She'll probably know who I amwhen she listens to this because
she's probably gonna be on mypodcast too.
But yeah, it's Nix Bad Design.
So she uses her last name tosay Nix Bad Design, and I'm like
, oh, my goodness, I love that.
And so it just yeah, it kind ofreminds you of you know,
sometimes your students can begood models for that and you're
(36:58):
like, oh yeah, that's great, Ilove that.
So yeah, it's really great shefound her niche and she found
you know that that really goodtagline and everything.
And so yeah, I agree thatsecret sauce, I love that.
And making sure that you'reunique and you can bring
something to the table.
One of my former coworkerswho's who's looking for
(37:18):
different type of job and shemight actually go into this
field, of course, creation andbecause she's done teaching in
the past and she's also donecopy editing and things like
that.
But she said that when she wastaking these courses on how to
kind of rebrand herself, theysaid you, you need to be the,
the bandaid for their, theirsore.
That's interesting.
Shannon Boyer (37:41):
Yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (37:42):
So there's all these little things that it's
like oh yeah, this is a goodreminder.
So that's kind of what you'retalking about with that secret
sauce make it something thatthey want and they can only get
with you.
Shannon Boyer (37:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Jackie Pelegrin (37:54):
Great Well, thank you so much for all this
insight, shannon.
I appreciate it.
It's wonderful.
I know my listeners willappreciate all this great
information because, like yousaid, keep your options open and
you never know what they coulddo.
They could be entrepreneurslike you or go into something
like Fiverr and do consultingwork.
So the options are so great now, especially with being able to
(38:19):
have that online component, andyou can do work all around the
world now and have clients fromeverywhere, so it's great.
Shannon Boyer (38:26):
It's true, absolutely true.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Jackie Pelegrin (38:30):
Thank you for taking some time to's been a
pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
(38:51):
I'm truly thankful for you.
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips, and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello, GCU students, alumni,and fellow educators, welcome to
episode 49 of the Designingwith Love podcast.
(00:22):
Today, I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Shannon L Boyer, an
award-winning educator,curriculum strategist, and
entrepreneur.
Welcome, Shannon.
Thanks, I'm so happy to be here.
Yes, me too.
I'm so glad we got to connect.
So can you tell us a little bitabout yourself?
Shannon Boyer (00:38):
Sure.
So, like you said, my name isShannon Boyer and I currently am
working in the online spacewith purpose-driven
entrepreneurs who want to taketheir skills and talents and
expertise and move them into theonline space, usually as a way
of expanding their business andsharing what they know with
(00:59):
others.
And the reason I saypurpose-driven entrepreneurs and
we can get into this a wholelot more is because there's so
much talk in the online spaceabout passive income, and I
strongly believe that there'snothing passive about education.
It's a very active process, andso what I focus on is people
(01:21):
who really care about gettingresults for their students and
they want to create a highquality course, and what I talk
about is high touch, highquality, high impact online
course that focuses on theresults of their students,
because ultimately, that iswhat's going to lead to the
success of their course andtheir business in general.
So that's what I do in mybusiness.
(01:42):
I've been doing that for abouttwo and a half years, and I
moved into that space two and ahalf years ago because I had two
kids in my 40s during thepandemic and had a real shift in
where I wanted to focus my timeand my flexibility of my time
(02:02):
in my work, my flexibility of mytime in my work.
Prior to that, I was working ata college for about 17 years.
I had the opportunity ofstarting a brand new program at
the college and teaching and itwas very innovative programming
and I won an award for my workin that program before I moved
(02:23):
into administration and thentook that curriculum development
program development experienceand started working and leading
teams of people.
I was responsible for a timefor instructor support and with
a lot of mentoring new teachers,mentoring and evaluating
existing instructors, helpingwith curriculum development,
(02:45):
leading teams of curriculumdevelopers, starting more
innovative programming and thenalso for a time I was
responsible for student successand engagement, which is another
thing that I'm really, reallypassionate about and you'll see
that in my work now, focusing onthe results of students.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:02):
So yeah, that's kind of me Neat.
So you took a lot of yourexperience and moved that over
into your business and stillkeeping that student-centered
approach, which is so importantbecause it can be easy, as we
know, to think about what do thefaculty or the instructors want
?
And I've noticed that in mytime being in curriculum design
and development that it tends tobe.
(03:24):
You have to kind of separateright what's preference, what's
when, what do the studentsreally need and what's going to
help them be successful in theirfuture career.
So, yeah, that's great that youbrought that student-centered
approach to your work now.
So that's great, I love that.
Shannon Boyer (03:40):
Yeah, absolutely, because.
So two things.
One is, when I started when Iwas, you know, on maternity
leave and up all night trying tostay awake I started watching
online courses.
That's kind of how I got intothis world is I noticed there
were a lot of people who had alot of like skills and
experience and expertise, butthey didn't have the teaching
background to know how toeffectively and efficiently put
(04:02):
that into a course that wasgoing to get results for their
students, and it wasn't anyfault of their own.
It's just that sometimes Ialways say teaching is the only
profession in the world I feellike where people think, well,
because I've been a student for12, 14, 16, however many years
I've watched it happen that Ican go and do it and there's
that pervasive message butpeople don't realize, like, how
(04:25):
much goes on behind the scenesand what actually goes into, you
know, effective teaching.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:31):
Right.
Shannon Boyer (04:32):
Nobody thinks I've been a patient my entire
life, so I can now go and be adoctor.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:36):
It's very unique in that way right.
Shannon Boyer (04:40):
Yeah, and then in the online space, if you know,
on my Instagram anyway, it's allfull of do nothing, work less,
make tons of money, spend yourdays on the beach, blah, blah,
blah, blah, and it's all about,like, what the business owner
wants work less to make moremoney but nobody's ever thinking
(05:01):
about the student side of itand like, what does the student
not only want but need, and it'sjust so critical.
So, yeah, when I started movinginto this space, I just saw a
huge gap in the understanding ofwhat goes into a quality course
and in terms of just theassumptions that were being made
(05:22):
that's amazing.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:24):
So you saw that need and that gap and you're
working to fill it.
So that's wonderful.
I love that, exactly.
Yeah, so we talked about someof the mistakes.
What are some of those topmistakes that course creators
make that, you see?
Shannon Boyer (05:37):
So one of the biggest mistakes I see course
creators make is thinking thatit is fast and easy to make an
online course, and I thinkanybody in your world knows that
that's absolutely not true.
So that's one of the firstmistakes that I have to dispel,
because people that coupled withyou know that sitting down in
(05:58):
front of a PowerPoint or Canva,you know slide deck is step one,
and I always say to peoplethat's like 50%, like 50% of the
work comes before you sit downwith that, you know slide deck
or whatever it is, and so, andthen people think because it's
difficult for them, right?
They've been sold this ideathat it's easy to do, that you
(06:19):
just put sticky notes up andorganize your sticky notes and
then you can create your courseand it's not so easy.
And then they think there'ssomething wrong with them and
they think that, you know, maybethey're not cut out for it or
whatever, and they don't havethe confidence behind what
they're putting forward.
And so I think that that'sreally really key is to just
(06:42):
know upfront like it's not easyand it does take a lot of work.
So I think that's number one.
I think the other thing, too, isthe sticky notes.
Part of it is, you know, notusing frameworks and existing
structures and processes tocreate the curriculum because
(07:05):
they are so well, not only arethey based in like good pedagogy
, andragogy, whatever, but thatthey are like kind of the the
hat, the coat rack to hang yourhat on.
You know, like they're thestructure, the framework, they
give you the process so that notonly can you organize your
ideas and you know what comesnext and you're not just
(07:28):
floating out in this world ofambiguity, but it also gives you
the confidence that you've doneit in quote, unquote the right
way.
I don't believe in like oneright way, but that's part of
where people's lack ofconfidence there's a lot of talk
about imposter syndrome in theonline space and that's where a
lot of it comes from is becauseyou're just guessing.
So I think you know using thoseestablished frameworks,
(07:51):
structures, processes to helpguide you in the curriculum
process is just so critical formaking sure you have a high
quality course, but also theconfidence behind it.
Jackie Pelegrin (08:01):
So important.
We do that a lot in curriculumdevelopment too.
Yeah, and with instructionaldesign, relying on those
evidence-based frameworks, yeah,it's so important to do that
and I remind that with mystudents all the time make sure
you're, you know you're, you'regoing to something, whether it's
one or two models or theoriesor frameworks that you know will
(08:23):
work.
If you're looking at evaluationof a course, make sure you use
something like Kirkpatrick'smodel of evaluation or something
like that, so you know that youknow it's.
If it's Addy or something else,whatever it is, you know you
know.
Make sure that it's.
It has it's something that'sestablished and has that
evidence-based to it.
So you know.
Shannon Boyer (08:43):
Yeah, absolutely, and it's you don't have to
reinvent the wheel, at least asa starting point.
Because I think for myself, Ikind of take now that I'm so
experienced, I've done this forso long, I kind of take
different models and meld themtogether, use hybrids of
different things and tailor itfor the situation, because you
know, everyone has its pros andcons, every situation has its
(09:05):
nuances and that kind of a thing.
So, yeah, especially when you'rebeginning, start out with those
tried and true frameworks andthen, as you become more
experienced and you start tounderstand them better, then you
can massage them and, you know,start to make them work for you
.
And I think at the beginning itcan feel maybe too regimented
or restrictive or like theprocess is too, yeah, regimented
(09:30):
and restricted.
Yeah Right, I think peoplesometimes like rebel against it
because it's like constrainingtheir creativity or whatever.
But when you're first startingout, it's so important to things
about Addy and they want to goto Sam and I'm like, but Sam is
for rapid development and youmay not always be doing rapid
development and you may notalways have that constant
(09:59):
collaboration where you can dothat iterative design and
development.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:03):
So I always let them know.
There's benefits, like you said, benefits and drawbacks to
every model.
So, yeah, I like that approachof being able to, once you know
them well enough, you can kindof take pieces from each one and
make something that works foryou and works for the project.
Shannon Boyer (10:19):
Absolutely, and I think you need to have that
experience before you can dothat, because you don't always
necessarily understand exactlywhy it's done in that way or in
that order, or you know whateverin that order or you know
whatever, and through experienceyou start to understand more of
those nuances and like what canbe left behind, what needs to
be kept in, what's critical andall of those kinds of things.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:39):
Right, that's so important, yeah, yeah.
Shannon Boyer (10:42):
And then I think, another mistake.
I'll wrap up with one moremistake that I see, especially
in the online space.
Well, we can probably talkabout two more, but anyway
missing out on the opportunityfor guided practice and explicit
implementation.
So often and I guess this kindof ties into the to the other
(11:05):
thing I was going to say aboutyou know, with the I do, we do,
you do kind of gradual releaseof responsibility model that we
do step gets missed out so much.
And often, in an effort to likespeed things up, there's a lot
of like cut the fluff and justgive them what they want.
(11:28):
And I mean absolutely youshould make sure that whatever's
in the course is directlyrelated to the outcome of the
course, and you know taking outwhatever is extraneous and
overwhelming and not necessary.
You know that's an importantstep, but I find that sometimes
with people again it's likemessing with the model before
you really understand it.
So many times I see peopletrying to take out the fluff but
(11:50):
what they think is the fluff isnot really fluff, it's actually
really critical.
I heard somebody say like Idon't ever tell my students why
they're learning something orwhy something is important,
because they don't want to knowor need to know, they just need
to do it.
And I was like alarm bells aregoing off in my head because I'm
like that's not fluff, you'renot getting out fluff, so it's
(12:14):
you know.
And so again, it's like justtelling people what to do and
then expecting that they'regoing to be able to go and do it
without that middle part of thescaffold, the learning, the
guided practice, the we do partof that.
I see people either don't evenknow many times it's like they
(12:35):
don't even know that that stepis there, or that that's a thing
or unintentionally cutting itout because they don't realize
the importance of it.
And then, I think, going to theapplication part again, for a
lot of us, even seasonedinstructors and teachers, there
is sometimes an assumption thatbecause we've told somebody what
(12:58):
to do, that they will be numberone, be able to go and do it
and number two, intrinsicallyknow that they should go and do
it.
And I think that that finalstep to implementation and
application needs to be a lotmore facilitated and explicit
than we think it really does.
(13:19):
It makes so much sense to usLike I've shown you how to do
this, now go do it, but weactually have to say now, go do
it.
This is what I want you to do,this is how I want you to do it,
this is how you can apply it toyour life and facilitate that
process.
Jackie Pelegrin (13:34):
So not making assumptions that someone knows
what to do.
Yeah, it's kind of like withthat.
I just did a podcast episode nottoo long ago about adult
learning theories and I came upwith some myths common myths
that happened and one of themyths was that adults don't like
group work.
Well, that's not always true.
(13:55):
They do like to.
They just want it to bemeaningful and and and apply to
what they're doing.
So it's kind of interesting how, yeah, we tend to make those
assumptions or common mistakesthat we think, oh, all learners
are going to be like that andthey don't want that.
Shannon Boyer (14:11):
But yeah, I just had a conversation with someone
this morning and it was exactlylike that, because I was trying
to talk to her about theimportance of providing feedback
and being available to yourstudents, like having a live
aspect of her course.
Because, again, people are soldon this idea of, like, you
create this thing.
(14:31):
Once you put it online, itmakes you millions of dollars
and you never have to touch itagain.
You just lay on the beach, andthat was.
She was like this, that's whatI want for my business, and I
was like, well, but that's notwhat your students need.
And her response was well, Idon't like the interaction, I
don't like that.
When I have to, you know, whenthere's a live aspect of a
(14:51):
course, I just want to do it bymyself, and so I think that's.
You know, you've touched onanother mistake, which is
thinking that the way you preferto learn is the way other
people prefer to learn, or maybeeven the best way to learn.
Everybody learns in differentways, so it's really important
that I think we need to look atwhat have you found beneficial
in courses that you've taken?
(15:12):
What has been lacking incourses that you've taken?
I think that experience as astudent is really critical, but
we can't make the assumptionthat the way we prefer to learn
is the way other people preferto learn and making all our
decisions based on that.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:28):
Right, oh, so true, absolutely.
So into our next question.
Kind of goes into that groupcomponent.
Shannon Boyer (15:35):
So how do?
Jackie Pelegrin (15:35):
you suggest.
Course creators move from thatone-on-one to more group content
without losing that personaltouch that sometimes can happen.
Shannon Boyer (15:43):
Yeah, perfect segue, because that was kind of
like the conversation that I washaving with this client.
She had been working one-on-onewith people and now wanted to
go from one-to-one toone-to-many.
That is a common journey forpeople in the online space.
They start doing coaching andconsulting one-on-one.
Pretty soon they max outbecause they don't have any more
hours in their day or they wantto become more flexible, and
(16:08):
then they go into thatone-to-many situation, which is
where you have that onlinecourse and then you can support
people through more group liveinteractions.
And so one of the things that Ithink is really critical when
you're doing that is number oneto make sure that you have the
live component.
(16:28):
I think that is a reallycritical piece.
You know, we talk about AI, wetalk about all these different
kinds of online learning, but wecan't take out the humanness of
it.
And referring back to that sameclient, what was really
interesting is that we weregoing back and forth and at the
end of the conversation she waslike thank you so much, this has
(16:49):
been really helpful.
You know, she kind of decidedshe didn't want to do that live,
but there were other thingsthat I helped her with and gave
her a different perspective on,and I replied back to her and I
said that's the power ofpersonalized feedback.
Like you have just provenexactly what I've said.
Like you don't want to do itfor your students, but we've
(17:10):
just proven here how meaningfuland valuable it was for you and
how much you were able toaccomplish in a short period of
time because of having myexpertise look at your situation
and your work.
So that personal touch, thosepersonal interactions, those
(17:37):
personal interactions, thatability to access the quote
unquote expert.
There is just something abouthaving the eyes of the expert
I'm going to call the instructorthe expert in this situation on
your work and giving youfeedback.
Again, that's another thingthat gets stripped away when we
are moving into the online spaceor we're talking about some of
the you know kind of coursesthat I work with is people are
like it's too much work, don'twant to do that.
(18:01):
I got into this to be hands offand again I'm like no, you've
been fed the wrong message.
You are here to help people.
You are here to serve people.
You are here to help themachieve a goal and achieve an
outcome.
You are here to help themachieve a goal and achieve an
outcome and that criticalcomponent of giving people
feedback is so important.
(18:21):
I took a course myself.
It was an online course onFacebook ads.
I decided I want to start doingFacebook ads and it was on
demand.
So it was just, you know,modules, lessons that I accessed
on my own, pre-recorded, nolive interactions, nothing.
And it was very step by stepand it was.
(18:41):
This was another course wherethey said we've stripped all the
fluff, we're not going to wasteyour time, we're just going to
give you what you need.
And so I diligently wentthrough step by step click here,
do this.
And then they said okay, nowpublish.
And I was like what you want meto press publish?
This is going to cost me money.
I don't know if I have done itcorrectly.
I don't know if I have a goodad.
(19:03):
You've given me no criteria orquality to even do a
self-evaluation to figure out ifI have implemented what you've
taught properly.
I'm not pressing publish.
I have no confidence in whatI've quote unquote learned.
And so, again, it was a hugeopportunity that had been missed
(19:24):
there and assumptions that hadbeen made that, because I
trusted them enough to pay forthe course, I was going to trust
the outcome.
But it's not about that, it'snot about trust, it's about I'm
still learning and I'm not goingto learn every single step
perfectly the way you havepresented it.
I need that feedback for, like,yes, you've done this part
(19:47):
properly, but you haven't donethat properly.
Or you know improvement can bemade here and there, or you know
improvement can be made hereand there.
So, yeah, I think, keeping thehumanness, keeping the
connection, building therelationships, taking the
(20:08):
opportunity to get involved withstudents, and then making sure
that you don't skip out on thatimportant feedback point and
that the feedback shouldn'talways be written that important
feedback point and that thefeedback shouldn't always be
written, you know, sometimes youcan give someone a lot more
effective and valuable feedbackin another form instead of.
I think back to my days in thecollege.
Now, you know constructors werealways complaining like it
takes too much time to givefeedback, like let's just do
(20:33):
self-marking, multiple choice,because it's so much easier for
us, but you're not getting thesame outcomes.
And so I think really you haveto evaluate, like what is the
outcome that you want and what'sreasonable?
They have to be balanced rightwhat's reasonable for the
expectations of the instructoralong with what is necessary for
the students to achieve thatoutcome, that promise.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:58):
Yeah, that's so important because you want to
make sure you're giving theright feedback at the right time
, but then not overwhelminginstructors either.
So, yeah, it's the rightbalance, absolutely yeah.
And making sure that whoever'screating the course, you know
that they still have thatopportunity to have that freedom
that they're looking for, butnot so much.
So right that they still havethat opportunity to have that
freedom that they're looking for, but not so much so right that
they don't give the studentswhat they need in the course.
(21:19):
And keeping it student centeredis so important.
Yeah, even in that space, yeah.
Shannon Boyer (21:25):
Absolutely, absolutely.
I was very lucky.
Early on in my career I workedfor a nonprofit.
I started teaching, I leftteaching.
I worked for a nonprofit andthe nonprofit, every single
thing they did in, every singledecision they made, was framed
through the lens of what's inthe best interest of the client.
And so when I went back toteaching and I went to the
college, I just naturally andsubconsciously redirected that
(21:50):
to what is in the best interestof the student and it was just.
It framed my whole career and Ireally credit the success that
I had and am continuing to haveas keeping the student and
what's in the best interest ofthe student at the forefront.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:08):
That's great.
I love that.
You talked a little bit aboutAI, so I thought we could touch
a little bit on that, so isthere any specific AI technology
that you can recommend that youfind helpful during the course
creation process?
Shannon Boyer (22:20):
all of these different tools are multiplying
daily and I am not an expert inthose at all, but it's
(22:44):
interesting because I do use itin my business.
Now it's come so far in such ashort period of time.
It's amazing.
I mean, you can go back tofairly recent podcast episodes
that I've done, maybe even justa year ago, where I was
suggesting people don't use itbecause it's going to, you know,
just water down and make yourcourse generic instead of having
it be uniquely you andhighlighting your expertise and
keeping that special sauce yoursand just so many other things
(23:07):
that were going wrong.
You know, a year, a year and ahalf ago, um, but things are
changing just so quickly, um,it's not even, it's not even
funny, um, and so what I'veactually done in my own business
is I've created my own customGPTs, um, and what I do?
Yeah, I have Chester, thecourse creator, and Lester, the
(23:27):
lesson planner, and I use themwithin my own business.
So, tester, the course creator,I use myself with my one-on-one
clients because I feel like itneeds the knowledge that I have
to use it properly and to getthe outcome that I'm looking for
for my clients.
But it really I've programmedit with certain frameworks and
(23:50):
principles and structures andthings that I believe in and use
with my clients, and so that'sa tool that I've created that I
use myself and then Lester thelesson planner I give my clients
access to through my onlinecommunity.
They have gone through thecourse mapping and the module
(24:14):
outlining process.
It takes them through thelesson planning process so that
they can then take that on tomaking their slides and creating
their videos and things likethat.
So the reason I did thattwofold I've trained them so
that my clients slash studentshave to input the content.
One of the problems with usingChatTPT is that it provides so
(24:37):
much content that looks good,sounds good, is very appealing,
that it almost makes us likediscount what we know or what we
thought or where we were goingwith something Like it's just
too easy, it just looks toopretty, and so that's why a year
ago I was saying don't use it,because I was seeing people just
(24:58):
start to go with whatever itsaid, and it's really hard to
have that critical lens that youneed to have when using an AI
tool when it's presented sobeautifully for you.
And so that's what I've done isI've trained my tools that the
students slash.
Clients have to input content,they have to be the one putting
in the knowledge, the expertise,and then what it really does is
(25:20):
help them with the organizationof it, helps them brainstorm
different guided practiceactivities, applications, things
like that.
So I really see it as a tooland that it needs to be used as
a tool.
I know other people frame it asan assistant or a co-creator.
I like to use me as theco-creator more so when I use
(25:44):
Chester with my clients, I waskind of like equate it to like a
DJ mixing table.
I don't know if that's whatthey're called, but if you can
envision, like the two recordsyou got, the DJ and the two
records, the GPT is really likethat mixing table.
So I bring in all of myexpertise in curriculum
development and they bring intheir expertise, like the
(26:04):
subject matter expertise, andthen the GPT is what mixes them
and really makes two headsbetter than one Really brings
those two things together.
Because before this when I wasworking with my clients
one-on-one, it was a difficultprocess and I'm sure some of
your students and listeners haveexperienced that when you're
(26:26):
the curriculum expert and you'reworking with the subject matter
expert and there's this gulf ofuh, you know, knowledge that's
that's missing.
They don't really understandyour process, you don't 100
understand their expertise andyou're trying to co-create
something together.
Um, it can be sometimes a verychallenging process, so this
(26:48):
just facilitates it.
It just facilitates it becauseit creates the mixing space for
those two things to cometogether really seamlessly.
It still needs all the criticalthinking and makes the
decisions from the you know,curriculum development
perspective, and then I want mystudents making the decisions,
(27:19):
my clients making the decisionsfrom their expertise and their
perspective.
Jackie Pelegrin (27:25):
I like that.
That's great.
Yeah, we have our own AI toolthat we use in curriculum
development and it's a closedsystem AI, so that way we don't
have to worry about thecurriculum getting out into the
worldwide web and the chat GPTand it's interesting, we have
this phrase that we use.
It's called the first draftprinciple, so, and it's
something that students knowabout too, because they get
(27:47):
there, they're going to beintroduced to the tool.
There's some different GPTmodels that they use for
healthcare and for education,and so it's really neat.
But I always let them know thisis the first pass.
You're still the, you know,you're still the expert.
I'm taking your survey data andI'm putting it in and I'm
getting a first draft of aprogram description and
competencies.
(28:08):
But you have to massage it.
You have to be the ones toreally finesse it and make sure
that it meets the outcomes andthat it makes sense.
So yeah.
Shannon Boyer (28:18):
I agree yeah absolutely you have to make sure
that it makes sense, and Ithink that that's why probably
the next step will be more ofthose tools for evaluating that
first draft right and likemaking sure that you, like you
have you checked that theorganization makes sense,
because sometimes, although it'sreally good at organizing, I've
(28:40):
had it switch things around andI'm like, why did you switch
those two things around?
That makes no sense the way youdid it.
And it comes back.
It's like you're 100% correct.
The way you're doing it is muchbetter than the way I did it.
So, yeah, I think we're thinkthat will kind of be.
The next step is having more ofthose systems of evaluation for
the outputs that we get fromthese AI models.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:03):
Absolutely yeah , because I was kind of getting
an outline for some differentmodels and I was doing one on
Mayer's 12 multimedia principlesand chat GPT started.
It started hallucinating and itand it confused Merrill's first
principles of instruction withMayer's 12 principles because
they had principles in it andMayer and Merrill are, so you
(29:27):
know, similar that when Istarted looking at them'm like
wait a minute.
It started with the fivemirrors, five principles, and
then it started going into amayor's like multimedia
principles, like coherence, andI'm like, wait a minute, no,
this is not right.
So it melded the two togetherand I'm like, okay, try this
again.
And then it was like, oh yeah,you're right, it didn't.
So I'm like yeah my littlevirtual assistant didn't didn't
(29:50):
quite get it the first time.
Shannon Boyer (29:51):
Yeah Well, and that's why I always laugh when
you know there's one inparticular that I always one
company in particular.
It's always up on my Instagramand they're like use our GPT to
create a course in five days,make millions.
And it's like, but if you don'thave the expertise to be able
to do exactly what you just didin that situation and not take
it at face value and understandlike, oh, wait a minute, there's
(30:13):
like issues here and there aremuch bigger issues that that
happen with it as well You'rejust, you're not, you're just
gonna get garbage.
And also, I think, like peopletalk a lot about, you know
nothing new under the sun thatpeople want to take courses from
us because of the way wepresent it, because of our
background, knowledge and ourexperience and the our
(30:35):
perspective and and the twistthat we're putting on things,
and you want to make sure youdon't lose that, because then
otherwise it's just everything.
Everything is the same.
So I think, like finding waysto really keep that uniqueness
and in your case I would say sayum, something like going back
to what you said earlier ofstill leaving that space for the
(30:57):
instructor to have theirperspective and their experience
come through is really critical.
So you want to be creating acourse that can be duplicated
and that the consistency isthere and any kind of
accreditation.
You know processes are stillbeing adhered to and students
can depend that whether they goto this instructor or that
(31:19):
instructor, they're receivingthe same quality of education.
But I believe that it's reallyimportant to still leave this
space within those courses forthe instructor's expertise and
perspective to shine through aswell.
Otherwise you might as wellhave a robot up there teaching
it.
It needs to keep the humanness.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:39):
Yeah, that's something that GCU has is we
have a centralized curriculum,so they have a master course
shell and then all the sectionsget built out.
With that and with withthecampus instructors, they get
more flexibility and autonomy.
Online not as much, but theystill they're expected to add,
you know, to that, add a littlebit of their flavor to that.
(32:00):
But it's nice because, like yousaid, from one course to the
next in that program the studentknows what they can expect,
where things are going to be,and so they know they're going
to get, you know, not always anassignment, but they know
they're going to get discussion,questions and online and they
know they're where things aregoing to be housed and it's not
different from one course to thenext, because that can be
(32:20):
challenging for students yeah,if they don't know what to
expect and so it's reallyinteresting.
But I always say to the facultythat are working on the
curriculum with us I'm like justbecause we package it up for
you in this nice little bowdoesn't mean that's all you do.
And you just work, you know,try to enhance it and add to it.
So it's so important I do thatwith my classes too.
(32:43):
I add to it and make sure it'sgot a little bit of Jackie in it
.
Shannon Boyer (32:47):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean, that's what they
created.
Yeah, absolutely, I mean that'swhat makes it interesting and
(33:17):
engaging and keeps students, youknow, motivated and wanting to
persist with the course, becauseit's really important that you
know, we focus on thestandardization of quality
without losing the I don't evenknow how to phrase it but
there's a different level ofquality that the person teaching
it brings and we can't leavethat out.
Jackie Pelegrin (33:30):
Right, you don't want to stifle that
creativity in that sense that'sgreat.
Shannon Boyer (33:35):
Well, and I will just go so far as to say also
that that's a lot of like themotivation and professional
satisfaction that the personteaching it gets as well is
being able to have that creative.
I think course creation is sucha creative outlet and, you know
, allowing them to have thatcreativity and put themselves in
it and share that part ofthemselves, it's really
(33:57):
important for the instructor aswell as for the student.
Jackie Pelegrin (34:00):
Right, that's so true.
So, as you know, I have a lotof listeners that are either in
the program here at Grand CanyonUniversity in instructional
design or they're noviceinstructional designers.
It's funny because my podcastit was meant to be for my
students to give them thatopportunity to have, in a way
where you know if you go to aclass on campus, sometimes the
(34:23):
instructor will have a guestspeaker come in, and so this was
that opportunity to kind ofmirror that for my online
students and give them a littlebit of taste of that and have
some experts come in.
But now I've got listeners allover the world, which is I never
, never thought it would have,you know, grown to that.
But it's nice because now Ihave novice instructional
designers or others that want togo into course creation or
(34:44):
become learning developers andthings like that.
So what kind of advice can youshare with those that are
currently in the master'sprogram and they're looking to
go into instructional design ormaybe into what you're doing?
Shannon Boyer (34:56):
Yeah, I think that that's probably the best
advice that I can give is justkeep your options open.
There are so many different waysthat you can apply your
knowledge and what you havelearned.
So many different opportunities, your knowledge and what you
have learned, so many differentopportunities.
Industries um, yeah, just thesky is the limit when it comes
(35:17):
to job opportunities.
And, um, just as we've beentalking out through most of this
um program about that humanfactor and what makes you unique
, um, continue to hone in onthat and come up with I I don't
know if I can call it your style, because we've also talked
about, you know, using theframeworks and everything like
that but you want to have kindof that signature style and be
(35:41):
able to present that and havethat be what is valuable about
you as we're moving forward inthis AI age that we really don't
know what's going to happen.
But, yeah, so that's my bestadvice, I think, is don't
pigeonhole yourself.
Keep your options open, keepyour eyes open there's so many
opportunities and then make sureyou keep your secret sauce,
(36:06):
special sauce, and continue todevelop your signature style.
I would call it I like that.
Jackie Pelegrin (36:11):
That's great.
It reminds me of one of mystudents I'm teaching the
Capstone class right now for mystudents and one of them she
actually inspired me to actuallyupdate some of my branding and
stuff, and so she has aconsistent style for her
portfolio website and then itcarries over into her Instagram
and her LinkedIn and so thatthat whole entire brand and and
(36:36):
so her last name is Nix, and soshe's like Nix Bad Design is her
.
She'll probably know who I amwhen she listens to this because
she's probably gonna be on mypodcast too.
But yeah, it's Nix Bad Design.
So she uses her last name tosay Nix Bad Design, and I'm like
, oh, my goodness, I love that.
And so it just yeah, it kind ofreminds you of you know,
sometimes your students can begood models for that and you're
(36:58):
like, oh yeah, that's great, Ilove that.
So yeah, it's really great shefound her niche and she found
you know that that really goodtagline and everything.
And so yeah, I agree thatsecret sauce, I love that.
And making sure that you'reunique and you can bring
something to the table.
One of my former coworkerswho's who's looking for
(37:18):
different type of job and shemight actually go into this
field, of course, creation andbecause she's done teaching in
the past and she's also donecopy editing and things like
that.
But she said that when she wastaking these courses on how to
kind of rebrand herself, theysaid you, you need to be the,
the bandaid for their, theirsore.
That's interesting.
Shannon Boyer (37:41):
Yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (37:42):
So there's all these little things that it's
like oh yeah, this is a goodreminder.
So that's kind of what you'retalking about with that secret
sauce make it something thatthey want and they can only get
with you.
Shannon Boyer (37:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Jackie Pelegrin (37:54):
Great Well, thank you so much for all this
insight, shannon.
I appreciate it.
It's wonderful.
I know my listeners willappreciate all this great
information because, like yousaid, keep your options open and
you never know what they coulddo.
They could be entrepreneurslike you or go into something
like Fiverr and do consultingwork.
So the options are so great now, especially with being able to
(38:19):
have that online component, andyou can do work all around the
world now and have clients fromeverywhere, so it's great.
Shannon Boyer (38:26):
It's true, absolutely true.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Jackie Pelegrin (38:30):
Thank you for taking some time to's been a
pleasure.
Thank you.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
(38:51):
I'm truly thankful for you.
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