June 15, 2025 • 37 mins
Welcome to episode 32 of the Designing with Love podcast! In this episode, I had the pleasure of interviewing Nathalie Doremieux, the co-founder of Podcast LeadFlow and an expert in the instructional design field.
Artificial Intelligence may be revolutionizing education, but are we using it effectively? In this eye-opening conversation with Nathalie, we dive deep into the reality of online learning and how to create experiences that actually work.
The statistics are sobering—only 3-5% of people typically complete online courses. But this isn't just a student motivation problem; it's a fundamental design issue. "People don't want more, they want results," Nathalie explains, challenging the common belief that more content equals more value. Together, we explore how instructional designers can help subject matter experts translate their expertise into programs that don't overwhelm learners but instead guide them systematically toward achievement.
Whether you're an instructional designer, educator, or business owner creating online programs, you'll walk away with actionable strategies for implementing AI thoughtfully, adapting to different learning styles, and focusing relentlessly on what matters most—learner results. This isn't just about better course design; it's about transforming how we think about learning in the digital age.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, jackiePellegrin, where my goal is to
bring you information, tips andtricks as an instructional
designer.
Hello, gcu students, alumni andeducators, welcome to episode
32 of the Designing with Lovepodcast.
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Nathalie Doremieux,
(00:24):
the co-founder of Podcast LeadFlow.
Welcome, Nathalie.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jackie, thank you, so can youtell us a little bit about
yourself?
Yeah, sure.
Nathalie Doremieux (00:35):
So I am in France, so I am both French and
American, and I have lived inthe US for 10 years in the
corporate world, so I'm asoftware engineer as a
background.
And then, in 2005, my husbandand I decided to sell everything
and move back to France, becloser to family, and then we
(00:58):
ended up starting a business.
So that was 20 years ago.
So that was 20 years ago.
That evolved a lot.
I'd say that our primaryservices are building membership
sites and online programs, sowe do work with instructional
(01:19):
designers as well, and we'vereally been involved with AI in
the last five years and more,using AI as an accelerator, an
amplifier, to help students getresults faster and give them an
extra level of support.
And then in January, welaunched Podcast Leapflow, which
(01:46):
is basically a tool forpodcasters to start
conversations with our listeners, because we saw that there was
a gap between the listener andthe client right, it's more for,
like, business owners.
Jackie Pelegrin (01:52):
Wow, that's exciting.
I love that and that the factthat you work with your husband.
It shows that you have thatclose relationship where you can
both take your talents and yourskills and meld them together
and be able to do that.
So I love to hear about familyowned businesses and that's
because it really shows thatstart those strong ties and
(02:14):
everything.
So that's really great.
I love that and I love thatyou're.
You're in France, so that's.
That's great, and you're closeto family.
That really helps.
Definitely yes.
So you mentioned, mentioned,you know you have many hats that
you wear.
It sounds like what do?
What do you primarily do, um,at the company?
Nathalie Doremieux (02:29):
then is there certain things that or you
do, just you have your, yourhat and everything pretty much
so basically my my focusmarketing and sales and I work
with people one-on-one tobasically help them design
(02:50):
programs.
So you know that they have anidea or they have a method or a
system that works and they wantto teach that online, but they
have no idea how to turn thatinto a program that's not
overwhelming.
They have no idea how to turnthat into a program that's not
overwhelming.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:07):
That gets people results.
You know what I'm talking aboutright, right, exactly, yes.
Nathalie Doremieux (03:09):
So I help people with that.
It's really transitioned fromjust building the site as the
tech person to really realizingthat we were building all this
platform and people were notbeing successful.
Building all this platform andpeople were not being successful
and I was like, okay, let mefigure out.
(03:31):
Like, what can I do, what can Ilearn to actually help them
create programs that peopleactually not just buy but
actually go through and get theresult, because that's the
ultimate success, right?
So that's basically what I do.
In a nutshell.
I talk to a lot of people, Inetwork a lot.
You know, I collaborate a lot,and we were just sharing before
(03:55):
we started to record that aportion of our business is by
referral and just also studentswho are in an online program and
they see our link in the footer.
I'm like, oh, I like the waythis is working.
You know like I want something,I want the same, you know I
want something like that.
So, and it's been workingpretty well for us.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:11):
That's great.
So you've been able to learnabout the marketing and and also
being able to really help withthe instructional design aspect
and making sure that theseprograms are not going to just
come and go, but they're goingto last and they're going to be
around for a long time and getresults, and that's mainly what
that are necessary, that need tobe done in the business.
Nathalie Doremieux (04:33):
So you, you either get help or you, you get
training, you learn right Atleast the minimum, so that you
(04:54):
can.
Otherwise you have a business,but you, you know you either
don't have clients or you knowlike there is a piece that is
missing, right.
So it's never going to be thatyou wear all the hats and you
know how to wear all the hatsright.
And sometimes there are thingsthat we hate to do and we
absolutely should not be doingthem because we are not going to
(05:17):
do a good job at them anywayright, right, that's so true.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:20):
Yeah, definitely yeah.
And it sounds like you know,you, you have the interest
because you saw a need and youyou knew that you could fulfill
that need.
So sometimes it comes out ofnecessity, right, but sometimes
it comes out of just pureinterest in seeing that need and
wanting to fill that.
So it sounds like that's whatyou did.
Nathalie Doremieux (05:39):
Exactly, and it's really been, because at
the beginning we were reallyjust building websites, you know
, just regular websites, and wehad an opportunity to create an
online course for someone and Igot into that and then even I
think it's my husband, that andbusiness partner that started to
say but how can we improve theexperience?
Because it's terrible, you know.
(06:00):
It's like people are in frontof a computer and we give them
all these videos to watch andsay, ok, now go do it.
It was like how can we try toreplicate what is happening in a
classroom, their ability, youknow, for it to be a bit more
interactive, their ability toask questions right or to get
feedback on their work, right?
How can we create that onlineso that we'll have more people
(06:24):
get results?
Because at the time, it waslike 3% to 5% of people only
complete an online course whichis not good.
Jackie Pelegrin (06:34):
No, that's not good at all.
Yeah, and it seems like a lotof times, online programs they
just want to give all thisinformation and they don't know
how to segment it and they don'tknow how to make it so that it
doesn't overwhelm learners.
So exactly, yeah, so that's thepart?
Nathalie Doremieux (06:50):
Yeah, because, like, they have an
expertise and they think thatbecause they know they have the
expertise to turn that into aprogram that's effective.
I mean, that's whyinstructional designers exist,
right Right To do that andpeople are like no, no, this is
my stuff, I know, and very oftenthey would create something
(07:11):
that looks good to them but thatcould feel either too
overwhelming for people or toomuch theory, not enough doing,
or videos, too long, not enough,like milestone and wings so
that people stay motivated.
So all these things they don'tthink about because they don't
know.
They don't know.
Jackie Pelegrin (07:30):
That's true, yeah, it's.
Yeah, it's very interestingbecause I do work with subject
matter experts a lot in theindustry and they know the
content so well.
They know that what they do.
So, for example, I work withcounselors because I work on
counseling programs at theuniversity and so it's very.
But it's very interestingbecause they know their craft,
they know what they're doing,but I and I know a lot about it.
(07:52):
But I still have to keep myselfaway from the content per se in
that sense, because I don'twant to become the expert.
they're the expert, but thenwhen it comes to the
instructional design, I give thesuggestions, I ask the
questions, I bring that out ofthem and say, ok, what, what at
the end of this class do youwant students to know be able to
do at the end?
And then that's where theirexpertise comes in.
(08:14):
But then we make it to where itmakes sense to students,
because if they were to justwrite it and go off, it wouldn't
be very good.
So you know, but they're goodat what they do, they're good at
the instruction aspect, andthen I'm good at the curriculum
side of it and just helping itto make sense.
So it all comes together asthis big, you know beautiful
(08:36):
type of thing at the end.
So, but it takes work and so itsounds like you are able to
work with those experts andreally help them understand that
the end product is what you'relooking at.
Nathalie Doremieux (08:48):
Yeah, exactly.
And then often people are likethey want to give more.
You know, there is this notionthat if we give them more, it
will have more value.
It's like people don't wantmore, they don't want to watch
more videos, they want results.
If you can give it to them withless, even better, right, yes,
(09:10):
and so when?
When it doesn't?
So maybe we'll talk about that,I don't know like, but like
when, when we look, like when wedo an audit on a program,
because people get stuck andthey are not getting like the
results, like they don't havelike the number of students that
actually complete, and thingslike that, then we look into at
(09:32):
what step they are getting stuckand then, yes, we might add a
tool, an extra resource, tofigure out why people get stuck.
If you think they should notspend so much time in this piece
, what is it?
Does it need to break to bebroken down into two?
Right, is it not actionableenough, like you know, like, is
(09:54):
it standing on its own enoughthat they don't require to watch
something else?
You know that.
You know it's like it's reallylooking into that.
It's like how do we improve theexperience?
And very often it's not lookinginto that.
It's like how do we improve theexperience?
Jackie Pelegrin (10:06):
And very often it's not about adding more
Absolutely.
That's so true, definitely so.
Are there any?
Because a lot of my studentsyou know they want to go in and
they want to do consulting workdown the road when they finish
their master's degree and orthey want to go into corporate
or higher education.
So they want to break intosomething else, but most of the
time it's consulting and they'retrying to do that.
(10:26):
So are there any specificleadership skills or styles that
you think are really helpful asa business owner that you think
would be good for some of mystudents to know about that they
can kind of think about asthey're thinking about becoming
a business owner or doingconsulting work?
Nathalie Doremieux (10:42):
Yeah, well, I think what is really important
is really to keep up with thetrends and what is working, I
mean, especially in the.
So, in the online space, atleast I don't know about you
know, in the corporate world,but like in the online space, uh
, e-learning has changed so much.
Yes, it has Courses that usedto sell don't sell anymore.
(11:08):
Like, even people that used tosell a lot of them and make a
lot of money are now shiftingtheir model, because people are
done with spending money onthings where they don't get the
result, they don't have thelevel of support, they don't
have the interaction, and evenpeople start to and I don't know
(11:31):
if we'll talk about AI but toexpect some type of AI support
and tool, not to replace anyone,right, but like as an extra
level, because we know it's anaccelerator, right, it can be an
accelerator.
So it's just keeping up with thetrends and knowing what works,
(11:53):
what are, like the emergingtechnologies and tools that are
coming up, and just being ableto also have that range of tools
and technologies that you canuse, because it's not one size
fits all, right, it really somuch depends on your audience,
(12:16):
you know, like learning stylesand even like how much time
people have, right.
So it's like we have to adapt.
You know, when we createprograms, it's not just the
curriculum, but it's alsolooking at who is my audience,
who is the audience that isgoing to consume, right, right.
(12:38):
So it's really keeping up withthe trends and not saying like,
okay, I have one way to do it.
It works for me, I'mcomfortable with it.
Jackie Pelegrin (12:46):
Like challenge yourself to say what is out
there, you know Right, andkeeping up with that so
important.
Yes, yeah, and a little bitabout the AI.
You know, one of the questionsthat I wanted to bring up that
was on your list of questionsbecause I want to make sure I
asked a couple of those, becauseit kind of goes over that
automation part, so how dothat's something that I used to
(13:06):
do a lot for businesses.
Nathalie Doremieux (13:28):
To me.
I see automation things thatneed and should be automated are
repetitive things that don'trequire our expertise.
You know, it's like if you'vegot to do it more than two,
three times can it be automated.
Like if you got to do it morethan two, three times can it be
automated.
And the reason we automatethese things is that it gives us
(13:52):
more time to actually interactwith people.
So you automate so that youhave more time to have the human
connection right.
So, for example, I was workingwith someone and she had this
program and what we did is weautomated some pieces inside.
So people had to have gonethrough some type of training.
You know things that they learn, so one-on-one with the client,
(14:14):
but she would not have torepeat herself doing the same
thing over and over, and theycould spend the time on
(14:39):
answering the questions andactually applying what was
learned.
So, to me, automation is a wayto save time, but it needs to be
done on things that don'trequire you to basically be
there.
Jackie Pelegrin (14:52):
Right, right.
So it shouldn't be done blanketacross everything.
There needs to be a, it needsto be a process that takes that
into consideration as well.
Nathalie Doremieux (15:02):
Absolutely, and usually those are like
repetitive tasks that actuallywould benefit from being
automated, because now you canensure consistency, right, right
, so it's not like automatingbecause we don't want to do it
anymore, you know, like you usedto do something and then
(15:22):
suddenly it's not one-on-oneanymore, it's an automated thing
.
It's really not the same thing,right?
But here we're talking aboutautomation in the sense of
defining a process, an SOP thatactually you follow, that is
automated and that ensures theconsistency, and that's actually
it's done properly, followingthe SOP and consistently.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:45):
I love that.
Wow, that's great.
And so the AI is.
It becomes a helping hand.
You know I look at it as mydigital assistant when it comes
to things.
Nathalie Doremieux (15:56):
So with the AI.
So I mean, I'm sure you've seenthings like create an online
course with AI in 10 minutes andstuff like that.
To me, this is not the good AIat all.
Right, okay, writing yourcontent for you, and things like
that.
To me, this is not how you useAI.
(16:16):
Actually, ai is going to be asgood as what you feed it.
So what I've seen AI do really,really well is that when you
feed it knowledge, which is yourexpertise, right, and then you
give it context and then it'sgoing to you ask him to help you
, you know, craft somethingbased on that, and then the
(16:39):
result that you get now you workit, you work it again.
So it's basically human.
Ai and human and basically itaccelerates the work.
And when it comes to writing,for example, of course, now you
don't have the blank pageanymore because, worst case
scenario, you can say I don'tknow what you talk about, and
then it is going to start to askyou questions.
(17:01):
But the best way to use AI isas an amplifier and an
accelerator, not as areplacement.
I love that Because it pullsdata.
I mean, if you think about it,it pulls data from the internet,
right?
So it's going to be whateverybody says, maybe something
that is even wrong or obvious,right, and definitely that's not
(17:26):
coming from you.
And we have this opportunitywith AI, when we use it right,
to have it know our voice.
And the way I love to use it iswhen I have an idea.
It has this analytical mind.
Where it can you know, you giveit like examples of writings
(17:48):
that you've done, where you'relike, yes, this is me, this
sounds like me, right, and thenyou have this idea and then it's
going to save you so much timein writing that, and then you
can, you know, rework it andthen just make it you know, even
(18:08):
your own, but it's thataccelerated.
That's an accelerator that Ireally, really love with AI.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:15):
Absolutely Definitely.
And one thing that there's aterm that we use in my
department, because we use AI tohelp come up with the ideas, as
you were talking about, andthen I use it in my teaching as
well just to craft those ideas.
I even started it with mypodcasting, too, coming up with
outlines and things like that,because I kept struggling with
(18:36):
that.
But one of the terms that mydirector in my department
started using, and now it's allacross the university, is the
first draft principle.
So that gives us that sensethat, okay, this is the first
draft, this is never going to bewhere we're going to copy it
and paste it into the curriculumExactly, and it's never going
to be that there's going toalways be, like you said, that
(18:57):
human element at the forefront,at the back end.
We call it human in the loop.
Nathalie Doremieux (19:03):
Oh, I like that Human in the forefront,
yeah, at the back end, we callit human in the loop.
Oh, I like that Human in theloop.
So it's always, yeah, it'shuman.
So I say AI is an acceleratorthat allows us to be more human,
because now we can do more, yes, more interaction with people.
Right, so that's one way we useAI.
Another way that we use AI isto help students do their
(19:28):
homework, for example.
So, you know, when somebodygets stuck and they have to
maybe write an email, there canbe a little AI tool that is
going to ask them a couple ofquestions and going to draft
maybe the first version of thatemail.
Right, right, but it's going tobe again the quality of the
questions that we ask that aregoing to drive the quality of
(19:52):
the draft right, right, and thequality of the answers right,
right.
For example, we do, for example, ai tools that work really well
in the e-learning space arerole play.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:05):
Oh, yes, I love role playing with AI.
Nathalie Doremieux (20:08):
Yeah, because role playing with
someone is weird.
Okay, it can be weird, likeunless you know the person, like
she's a friend and like yourole play, but like it's
completely objective and you cansay you can have different
level of role play.
You say, okay, let's role playa whole conversation with an
employee that is not performingand that I might have to let go,
(20:32):
let's just role play.
And then you can say, well,let's role play.
And today you're going to be astudent that also understand
that, or an employee thatunderstand that they are not
performing and it's not workingout as well.
So the conversation is prettymuch going to go well, right,
right.
(20:52):
And now you are the employeethat is like doesn't understand
where this is coming from andit's like questioning why you're
even doing so.
You see, you can even likecreate all these tools and what
this does.
It puts the student not as apassive learner but as a doer,
(21:13):
active learning, right, exactly,it boosts their confidence,
right, their confidence rightthere, um it.
It keeps them committed to theprogram, uh, because they are
seeing that they are makingprogress and they are feeling
supported.
It's interactive, so it'sreally like they don't feel like
(21:35):
alone, almost, you know, infront of the computer,
especially for right right,exactly, but it doesn't have to
be just for e-learning.
You know any, any, any programcould have these extra tools
that you could use either topractice or to help you write
(21:55):
something with 20 names for youronline program, wow.
So you might say, okay, well, Ican just type that in chat GPT,
right, or anywhere and it'sgoing to give me, it's going to
give you 20 boring names, right,and you're going to say no to
(22:15):
none of them, right, right?
But if you create the tool sothat it asks questions like what
kind of experience do you wantpeople to feel like?
Is that a community feeling?
Like, do you want to create,like a safe space for these
people or is it a hub where youwant to have thousands of people
, right?
And so when you ask these keyquestions, then you're going to
(22:37):
have a better answer instead ofsaying give me 20 names for my
course I teach painting.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:42):
Wow yeah that's amazing, I love it.
Nathalie Doremieux (22:45):
Yeah, it's great.
No-transcript, the better theoutput, right.
So that's why, if you just askit, give me 20 names, it's going
to give you 20 names, right,right, but you can have better.
Another thing that we foundwith AI.
(23:06):
So this is a great tip, evenfor you if you're using AI ask
AI to criticize their work.
It comes up with something.
Criticize their work.
It comes up with something.
And maybe you said I want theemail to be engaging.
You know, positive, like.
You know, like maybe there is acertain action that you want
(23:27):
people to get on what you'rewriting.
And then you say, okay, okay,that sounds good.
Now I want you to criticizeyour work, and what it is going
to do is you'll see, it's goingto analyze the answer and it's
going to tell you okay, so I didgood here because, as you can
see, it's engaging.
However, there was a placewhere I could do better.
(23:50):
You're right, right here.
Do you want me to write itagain?
And it's going to give youanother version, and that
version is going to be so muchbetter.
Jackie Pelegrin (23:58):
So much better.
Yeah, that's interestingbecause I did that with.
I don't know if you've usedcanva, their ai tools, but
recently they released canvacode where you can go in and you
can ask it to code things whereit can do interactive types of
content.
So I did just a couple oftesting items I did.
I did a historical timeline forinstructional design and then I
(24:20):
wanted to do a vocabulary gamefor instructional design terms
and it was so funny because thefirst draft it did.
It did pretty good.
But then I asked it can youplease add different elements?
Like I asked it to add a forthe timeline.
I asked it to add a photo or animage to the back of the card
because you would have the frontwhere it had the historical
event and then you would flipthe card over and it would have
(24:42):
the more information about it.
But I'm like I want to have, Idon't want to just have text, I
want to have something wherethey have a visual component.
So then it did that and it tooka little while to do it.
But then it finally came backand I flipped over and I got to
the Addy model and it had thiscircular thing and it had
A-D-D-I-E-E two E's and I waslike whoops, mistake.
(25:05):
And so then I looked at someothers and it just some of the
images just didn't turn outquite well.
So I asked it to please correctit again and it did that.
But it was funny.
I'm like you made a mistakehere and it was like oh, sorry
about the mistake, I'll correctthat, but yeah, it's pretty
interesting.
Nathalie Doremieux (25:21):
And that's why you always have to remember
that the information might notbe correct, right, it's not
right, so you cannot.
So that's why you have to again, you have to feed it that
expertise, right, that eitheridea or like.
(25:41):
Even if you're looking forcontent or podcast ideas, you
could say this is the messageyou know, like I want.
I want to talk about this.
I want to inspire people withthis.
Now give me titles of podcastepisodes that will make people
want to listen.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:58):
Right, that draws them in Exactly.
Nathalie Doremieux (26:00):
That draws them in, right, that keeps that,
sparks their curiosity, right,or you know, or something else,
right?
So it's like the more you tellit instead of saying just give
me 20, 20 podcast titles.
You know I'm an educationaldesigner.
Give me 20 podcast titles.
It's going to be super boring.
Might as well.
Jackie Pelegrin (26:19):
Do Google, you know yeah exactly that's where
that prompt engineering reallycomes into place, because you
can have a conversation with itInstead of just giving it one
line.
I tend to want to have aconversation with it.
We have an internal AI toolthat is similar to ChatGPT.
It uses that technology, butwhat's nice is that it keeps our
(26:40):
information at the institutionproprietary so it doesn't go out
on the web.
But it's really great because ithas Text Insight, which is
where it can take lengthy textand it can make it a little bit
more digestible.
And then it can also taketranscripts from meetings, like
from Microsoft Teams and Zoom,and then you just upload the
(27:01):
transcript and you say can youdo?
And we have prompts.
We have a whole entire OneNotenotebook that has a prompt
library of all these differentthings that we can utilize.
But I don't always go with thesame prompt.
I try to take it and, you know,change it a little bit and I
noticed that the AI will willreact differently each time.
Even if I put the same promptin, it'll come up with something
(27:22):
different.
So it's very interesting howit's never one in the same.
No, it's not, it's not, youknow.
Nathalie Doremieux (27:30):
And another thing, that.
So they did some tests and theyfound that if you use the voice
version instead of writing, youknow, so I don't know if you
have that on on your tool, butlike where you speak instead of
writing, you get even betterresults.
(27:50):
Because we just always say muchmore when we write.
When we speak, sorry, right.
When we speak, we say a lotmore than when we write.
And so when we write, when wespeak, sorry, right.
When we speak, we say a lotmore than when we write.
And so when we write, it's likeit doesn't have to be perfect,
the sentence doesn't have to bewell-formed, we really need to
see it as someone.
That's like sitting next to usand you're asking a question,
(28:13):
and it could be something likeokay, I need to write an article
, but I don't know, I'm notinspired.
Like, help me, ask me questions, and then it's going to ask
questions, literally like ifit's a person.
So you need to use it verydifferently than you use Google.
Google is a search engine,right here, it's very different.
(28:35):
You know it can actually thinkright.
Here, it's very different, youknow it can actually think right
.
So it's literally having aconversation.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:43):
Right.
That's why they call it alanguage learning model, right.
Nathalie Doremieux (28:46):
Because it's having that conversation yeah.
I love it.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:49):
I love that Great.
So what are some tips andadvice that you can share with
those who are currently in thismaster's program in
instructional design at GrandCanyon University?
With those who are currently inthis master's program in
instructional design at GrandCanyon University because we've
actually were implementing AItechnology into the revisions
that we've done recently withthis particular program and so
I've actually got a taste ofthat and I can see where
(29:10):
students are actually able to,they're going to be able in
their assignments to utilize AIto where they can.
Actually, when they'restoryboarding, for example, they
can utilize AI and say can youhelp me with this storyboard and
get the ideas out and thingslike that and scripting and
things like that.
So is there any type of adviceyou would give to them?
It can be on the AI or it canbe in general, like with course
(29:31):
development and things like that.
Nathalie Doremieux (29:33):
Yeah, so I have a couple actually.
So, on AI, I would say thatwith AI, it's easy to get
carried away, right.
It's like let's put AIeverywhere because it's fun.
And it's like gamification.
You're like, when it's too much, it's too much, okay.
Yes, so it's about strategicallyknowing that there might be a
(29:53):
point of difficulty.
Where can we use AI to helpthem?
Is there a prompt we can givethem?
Do they need to practice thisright?
Giving them these tools?
So really seeing AI as a toolwhere we can create tools for
(30:16):
them, but not putting it likeeverywhere for the sake of using
AI.
Oh, I want to use AI.
Where should I put it?
Looking at the problem thatwe're trying to solve and see if
it can be solved with AI, Ithink that's really important
because otherwise you get drawninto everything that's going on
with AI right now, all the toolsthat are coming up.
(30:36):
You start playing and creatingimages and doing all this stuff,
and it's really like we have tostay focused on what it is that
we want to do.
We want to create a programthat really creates the best
experience for our listeners, sothat they see they are making
progress, so they get to the end, with the actual end result.
(30:56):
You know that they sign up for,that they paid for right.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:00):
And it's about.
Nathalie Doremieux (31:01):
What is it that we can do and provide and
how can AI help accelerate that?
Like you know potentialproblems that people might have,
you know, in completing thehomework or things like that, it
could be all still like that AIcan do.
Review, you know, just reviewmy essay.
(31:23):
You know, like, here is myessay, what do you think you
know?
And things like that.
Right.
But yeah, I would say moregenerally that it's really about
I mean, that's how I feel, youknow, when I that's why I got
into this.
You know, helping people designthe program because I was so
frustrated about what peoplewere doing.
(31:43):
You know they would like recordlong, one hour video.
It's like, yeah, it's amazing.
No, like it's, it's, it's, it'sboring to watch, it's not
interactive, people don't knowwhen they need to do something,
or the end of the video, andthey're like, okay, what do I do
now?
It's really keeping up withthose trends, like I was saying,
(32:08):
but it's also remembering thatthe end goal is that we want
people to get results.
It's the learner in mind, thatis what we love to get results
right.
So it's the learner in mind,that is what we love.
I mean, that's one thing.
I think that's for everyone,not just instructional designer,
but that is what we love, howwe love to learn.
(32:28):
But we have to adapt to ouraudience and who this is for,
you know, if they are youngerpeople, if they are older people
, like if they prefer to listenor if they prefer to watch a
video or to read, we have, likethis, multimedia, multiple ways
for people to go through theprograms.
(32:50):
Right, that exist, that's beenthere for years, but it's really
understanding that, like whatis their method of learning and
it's different for everyone,right?
So trying to and incorporatingthat into the programs that we
create, I love that.
Jackie Pelegrin (33:07):
Yes, being able to know there's different
learning styles and yeah, beable to adapt it to that.
Nathalie Doremieux (33:12):
Exactly, even within an audience.
You know there are differentlearning styles, but they are
also based on the audience thatyou have.
You know the busy corporateexecutive doesn't have a lot of
time.
If you tell them there is a onehour video, they're like I'm
never going to be able to fit itin, like I don't know where
it's going to go, right.
So you have to keep thesethings in mind as well.
(33:35):
You have to keep these thingsin mind as well.
Also, like the age of thestudent, right?
A younger student would wantsomething probably shorter, more
playful, where he's rewardedwhen that makes him want to seek
, be curious to see what is thenext thing right Versus an
executive doesn't want to get abadge that says you did it right
(33:58):
.
So it's, you know, it's thisthing.
I think that can really be thedifference between a good
curriculum and a great program.
Jackie Pelegrin (34:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah, my students right nowthey've been learning about
multimedia learning styles.
You know, like Mayer'sPrinciples of Multimedia and
it's.
Yeah, they students right nowthey've been learning about
multimedia learning styles.
You know, like Mayer'sprinciples of multimedia and
it's yeah, they can see in thereal world where things don't
turn out well and yeah.
So it's interesting because oneof the questions I posted them
in my classroom assessmenttechnique this week was about
audio, that good audio makes ahuge difference.
(34:35):
And the question asked them ifyou have a really great video
that has one that has crisp,clear audio, but the, the rest
of it is horrible, do you stilllisten to it Because the audio
is great and but the you knowthe multimedia part on the
screen and the video is notgreat.
Or you know what, if the audiois horrible but the, the visuals
(34:56):
are great, you know which is,the audio is horrible but the
visuals are great, you knowwhich is.
And so one of my studentsanswered and she said, yeah, the
audio was crisp, clear, but thevideo elements, like the
interactive elements, was notthere at all, but she kept
listening to it because theaudio was so good.
So it's very interesting howyou have the auditory learners,
and then you have the ones thatare more visual, and then you
(35:17):
have the kinesthetic right thatwant both.
So it's a very interestingquestion and I hope more of my
students answer that, becauseit's kind of neat to hear those
examples of experiences they'vehad.
Did they keep listening or not?
You know, based on the audioquality.
Yeah, so, yeah, so interesting.
We could go on for so long.
(35:37):
I love it.
Yes, well, I thank you so muchfor coming and giving so much of
your insight, because I thinkthis is great.
Especially with AI technology,we want to be able to do it in a
incorporating, in a meaningfulway, and not have it, like you
said, be a one size fits all oruse it to replace that human
interaction or things that onlywe can do as human beings.
(36:00):
So being able to use it as anassistant, as a tool and and
knowing when to use it.
So I think that's so importantand you know my, my students
love that being able to know,know those things and be able to
digest that and and then applyit to the real, real world.
So that's great, exactly, Ilove that.
Thank you so much, nathalie.
I appreciate your time.
(36:20):
Thank you so much for having me, jackie, thank you.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
(36:44):
I'm truly thankful for you.
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, jackiePellegrin, where my goal is to
bring you information, tips andtricks as an instructional
designer.
Hello, gcu students, alumni andeducators, welcome to episode
32 of the Designing with Lovepodcast.
Today I have the pleasure ofinterviewing Nathalie Doremieux,
(00:24):
the co-founder of Podcast LeadFlow.
Welcome, Nathalie.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jackie, thank you, so can youtell us a little bit about
yourself?
Yeah, sure.
Nathalie Doremieux (00:35):
So I am in France, so I am both French and
American, and I have lived inthe US for 10 years in the
corporate world, so I'm asoftware engineer as a
background.
And then, in 2005, my husbandand I decided to sell everything
and move back to France, becloser to family, and then we
(00:58):
ended up starting a business.
So that was 20 years ago.
So that was 20 years ago.
That evolved a lot.
I'd say that our primaryservices are building membership
sites and online programs, sowe do work with instructional
(01:19):
designers as well, and we'vereally been involved with AI in
the last five years and more,using AI as an accelerator, an
amplifier, to help students getresults faster and give them an
extra level of support.
And then in January, welaunched Podcast Leapflow, which
(01:46):
is basically a tool forpodcasters to start
conversations with our listeners, because we saw that there was
a gap between the listener andthe client right, it's more for,
like, business owners.
Jackie Pelegrin (01:52):
Wow, that's exciting.
I love that and that the factthat you work with your husband.
It shows that you have thatclose relationship where you can
both take your talents and yourskills and meld them together
and be able to do that.
So I love to hear about familyowned businesses and that's
because it really shows thatstart those strong ties and
(02:14):
everything.
So that's really great.
I love that and I love thatyou're.
You're in France, so that's.
That's great, and you're closeto family.
That really helps.
Definitely yes.
So you mentioned, mentioned,you know you have many hats that
you wear.
It sounds like what do?
What do you primarily do, um,at the company?
Nathalie Doremieux (02:29):
then is there certain things that or you
do, just you have your, yourhat and everything pretty much
so basically my my focusmarketing and sales and I work
with people one-on-one tobasically help them design
(02:50):
programs.
So you know that they have anidea or they have a method or a
system that works and they wantto teach that online, but they
have no idea how to turn thatinto a program that's not
overwhelming.
They have no idea how to turnthat into a program that's not
overwhelming.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:07):
That gets people results.
You know what I'm talking aboutright, right, exactly, yes.
Nathalie Doremieux (03:09):
So I help people with that.
It's really transitioned fromjust building the site as the
tech person to really realizingthat we were building all this
platform and people were notbeing successful.
Building all this platform andpeople were not being successful
and I was like, okay, let mefigure out.
(03:31):
Like, what can I do, what can Ilearn to actually help them
create programs that peopleactually not just buy but
actually go through and get theresult, because that's the
ultimate success, right?
So that's basically what I do.
In a nutshell.
I talk to a lot of people, Inetwork a lot.
You know, I collaborate a lot,and we were just sharing before
(03:55):
we started to record that aportion of our business is by
referral and just also studentswho are in an online program and
they see our link in the footer.
I'm like, oh, I like the waythis is working.
You know like I want something,I want the same, you know I
want something like that.
So, and it's been workingpretty well for us.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:11):
That's great.
So you've been able to learnabout the marketing and and also
being able to really help withthe instructional design aspect
and making sure that theseprograms are not going to just
come and go, but they're goingto last and they're going to be
around for a long time and getresults, and that's mainly what
that are necessary, that need tobe done in the business.
Nathalie Doremieux (04:33):
So you, you either get help or you, you get
training, you learn right Atleast the minimum, so that you
(04:54):
can.
Otherwise you have a business,but you, you know you either
don't have clients or you knowlike there is a piece that is
missing, right.
So it's never going to be thatyou wear all the hats and you
know how to wear all the hatsright.
And sometimes there are thingsthat we hate to do and we
absolutely should not be doingthem because we are not going to
(05:17):
do a good job at them anywayright, right, that's so true.
Jackie Pelegrin (05:20):
Yeah, definitely yeah.
And it sounds like you know,you, you have the interest
because you saw a need and youyou knew that you could fulfill
that need.
So sometimes it comes out ofnecessity, right, but sometimes
it comes out of just pureinterest in seeing that need and
wanting to fill that.
So it sounds like that's whatyou did.
Nathalie Doremieux (05:39):
Exactly, and it's really been, because at
the beginning we were reallyjust building websites, you know
, just regular websites, and wehad an opportunity to create an
online course for someone and Igot into that and then even I
think it's my husband, that andbusiness partner that started to
say but how can we improve theexperience?
Because it's terrible, you know.
(06:00):
It's like people are in frontof a computer and we give them
all these videos to watch andsay, ok, now go do it.
It was like how can we try toreplicate what is happening in a
classroom, their ability, youknow, for it to be a bit more
interactive, their ability toask questions right or to get
feedback on their work, right?
How can we create that onlineso that we'll have more people
(06:24):
get results?
Because at the time, it waslike 3% to 5% of people only
complete an online course whichis not good.
Jackie Pelegrin (06:34):
No, that's not good at all.
Yeah, and it seems like a lotof times, online programs they
just want to give all thisinformation and they don't know
how to segment it and they don'tknow how to make it so that it
doesn't overwhelm learners.
So exactly, yeah, so that's thepart?
Nathalie Doremieux (06:50):
Yeah, because, like, they have an
expertise and they think thatbecause they know they have the
expertise to turn that into aprogram that's effective.
I mean, that's whyinstructional designers exist,
right Right To do that andpeople are like no, no, this is
my stuff, I know, and very oftenthey would create something
(07:11):
that looks good to them but thatcould feel either too
overwhelming for people or toomuch theory, not enough doing,
or videos, too long, not enough,like milestone and wings so
that people stay motivated.
So all these things they don'tthink about because they don't
know.
They don't know.
Jackie Pelegrin (07:30):
That's true, yeah, it's.
Yeah, it's very interestingbecause I do work with subject
matter experts a lot in theindustry and they know the
content so well.
They know that what they do.
So, for example, I work withcounselors because I work on
counseling programs at theuniversity and so it's very.
But it's very interestingbecause they know their craft,
they know what they're doing,but I and I know a lot about it.
(07:52):
But I still have to keep myselfaway from the content per se in
that sense, because I don'twant to become the expert.
they're the expert, but thenwhen it comes to the
instructional design, I give thesuggestions, I ask the
questions, I bring that out ofthem and say, ok, what, what at
the end of this class do youwant students to know be able to
do at the end?
And then that's where theirexpertise comes in.
(08:14):
But then we make it to where itmakes sense to students,
because if they were to justwrite it and go off, it wouldn't
be very good.
So you know, but they're goodat what they do, they're good at
the instruction aspect, andthen I'm good at the curriculum
side of it and just helping itto make sense.
So it all comes together asthis big, you know beautiful
(08:36):
type of thing at the end.
So, but it takes work and so itsounds like you are able to
work with those experts andreally help them understand that
the end product is what you'relooking at.
Nathalie Doremieux (08:48):
Yeah, exactly.
And then often people are likethey want to give more.
You know, there is this notionthat if we give them more, it
will have more value.
It's like people don't wantmore, they don't want to watch
more videos, they want results.
If you can give it to them withless, even better, right, yes,
(09:10):
and so when?
When it doesn't?
So maybe we'll talk about that,I don't know like, but like
when, when we look, like when wedo an audit on a program,
because people get stuck andthey are not getting like the
results, like they don't havelike the number of students that
actually complete, and thingslike that, then we look into at
(09:32):
what step they are getting stuckand then, yes, we might add a
tool, an extra resource, tofigure out why people get stuck.
If you think they should notspend so much time in this piece
, what is it?
Does it need to break to bebroken down into two?
Right, is it not actionableenough, like you know, like, is
(09:54):
it standing on its own enoughthat they don't require to watch
something else?
You know that.
You know it's like it's reallylooking into that.
It's like how do we improve theexperience?
And very often it's not lookinginto that.
It's like how do we improve theexperience?
Jackie Pelegrin (10:06):
And very often it's not about adding more
Absolutely.
That's so true, definitely so.
Are there any?
Because a lot of my studentsyou know they want to go in and
they want to do consulting workdown the road when they finish
their master's degree and orthey want to go into corporate
or higher education.
So they want to break intosomething else, but most of the
time it's consulting and they'retrying to do that.
(10:26):
So are there any specificleadership skills or styles that
you think are really helpful asa business owner that you think
would be good for some of mystudents to know about that they
can kind of think about asthey're thinking about becoming
a business owner or doingconsulting work?
Nathalie Doremieux (10:42):
Yeah, well, I think what is really important
is really to keep up with thetrends and what is working, I
mean, especially in the.
So, in the online space, atleast I don't know about you
know, in the corporate world,but like in the online space, uh
, e-learning has changed so much.
Yes, it has Courses that usedto sell don't sell anymore.
(11:08):
Like, even people that used tosell a lot of them and make a
lot of money are now shiftingtheir model, because people are
done with spending money onthings where they don't get the
result, they don't have thelevel of support, they don't
have the interaction, and evenpeople start to and I don't know
(11:31):
if we'll talk about AI but toexpect some type of AI support
and tool, not to replace anyone,right, but like as an extra
level, because we know it's anaccelerator, right, it can be an
accelerator.
So it's just keeping up with thetrends and knowing what works,
(11:53):
what are, like the emergingtechnologies and tools that are
coming up, and just being ableto also have that range of tools
and technologies that you canuse, because it's not one size
fits all, right, it really somuch depends on your audience,
(12:16):
you know, like learning stylesand even like how much time
people have, right.
So it's like we have to adapt.
You know, when we createprograms, it's not just the
curriculum, but it's alsolooking at who is my audience,
who is the audience that isgoing to consume, right, right.
(12:38):
So it's really keeping up withthe trends and not saying like,
okay, I have one way to do it.
It works for me, I'mcomfortable with it.
Jackie Pelegrin (12:46):
Like challenge yourself to say what is out
there, you know Right, andkeeping up with that so
important.
Yes, yeah, and a little bitabout the AI.
You know, one of the questionsthat I wanted to bring up that
was on your list of questionsbecause I want to make sure I
asked a couple of those, becauseit kind of goes over that
automation part, so how dothat's something that I used to
(13:06):
do a lot for businesses.
Nathalie Doremieux (13:28):
To me.
I see automation things thatneed and should be automated are
repetitive things that don'trequire our expertise.
You know, it's like if you'vegot to do it more than two,
three times can it be automated.
Like if you got to do it morethan two, three times can it be
automated.
And the reason we automatethese things is that it gives us
(13:52):
more time to actually interactwith people.
So you automate so that youhave more time to have the human
connection right.
So, for example, I was workingwith someone and she had this
program and what we did is weautomated some pieces inside.
So people had to have gonethrough some type of training.
You know things that they learn, so one-on-one with the client,
(14:14):
but she would not have torepeat herself doing the same
thing over and over, and theycould spend the time on
(14:39):
answering the questions andactually applying what was
learned.
So, to me, automation is a wayto save time, but it needs to be
done on things that don'trequire you to basically be
there.
Jackie Pelegrin (14:52):
Right, right.
So it shouldn't be done blanketacross everything.
There needs to be a, it needsto be a process that takes that
into consideration as well.
Nathalie Doremieux (15:02):
Absolutely, and usually those are like
repetitive tasks that actuallywould benefit from being
automated, because now you canensure consistency, right, right
, so it's not like automatingbecause we don't want to do it
anymore, you know, like you usedto do something and then
(15:22):
suddenly it's not one-on-oneanymore, it's an automated thing
.
It's really not the same thing,right?
But here we're talking aboutautomation in the sense of
defining a process, an SOP thatactually you follow, that is
automated and that ensures theconsistency, and that's actually
it's done properly, followingthe SOP and consistently.
Jackie Pelegrin (15:45):
I love that.
Wow, that's great.
And so the AI is.
It becomes a helping hand.
You know I look at it as mydigital assistant when it comes
to things.
Nathalie Doremieux (15:56):
So with the AI.
So I mean, I'm sure you've seenthings like create an online
course with AI in 10 minutes andstuff like that.
To me, this is not the good AIat all.
Right, okay, writing yourcontent for you, and things like
that.
To me, this is not how you useAI.
(16:16):
Actually, ai is going to be asgood as what you feed it.
So what I've seen AI do really,really well is that when you
feed it knowledge, which is yourexpertise, right, and then you
give it context and then it'sgoing to you ask him to help you
, you know, craft somethingbased on that, and then the
(16:39):
result that you get now you workit, you work it again.
So it's basically human.
Ai and human and basically itaccelerates the work.
And when it comes to writing,for example, of course, now you
don't have the blank pageanymore because, worst case
scenario, you can say I don'tknow what you talk about, and
then it is going to start to askyou questions.
(17:01):
But the best way to use AI isas an amplifier and an
accelerator, not as areplacement.
I love that Because it pullsdata.
I mean, if you think about it,it pulls data from the internet,
right?
So it's going to be whateverybody says, maybe something
that is even wrong or obvious,right, and definitely that's not
(17:26):
coming from you.
And we have this opportunitywith AI, when we use it right,
to have it know our voice.
And the way I love to use it iswhen I have an idea.
It has this analytical mind.
Where it can you know, you giveit like examples of writings
(17:48):
that you've done, where you'relike, yes, this is me, this
sounds like me, right, and thenyou have this idea and then it's
going to save you so much timein writing that, and then you
can, you know, rework it andthen just make it you know, even
(18:08):
your own, but it's thataccelerated.
That's an accelerator that Ireally, really love with AI.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:15):
Absolutely Definitely.
And one thing that there's aterm that we use in my
department, because we use AI tohelp come up with the ideas, as
you were talking about, andthen I use it in my teaching as
well just to craft those ideas.
I even started it with mypodcasting, too, coming up with
outlines and things like that,because I kept struggling with
(18:36):
that.
But one of the terms that mydirector in my department
started using, and now it's allacross the university, is the
first draft principle.
So that gives us that sensethat, okay, this is the first
draft, this is never going to bewhere we're going to copy it
and paste it into the curriculumExactly, and it's never going
to be that there's going toalways be, like you said, that
(18:57):
human element at the forefront,at the back end.
We call it human in the loop.
Nathalie Doremieux (19:03):
Oh, I like that Human in the forefront,
yeah, at the back end, we callit human in the loop.
Oh, I like that Human in theloop.
So it's always, yeah, it'shuman.
So I say AI is an acceleratorthat allows us to be more human,
because now we can do more, yes, more interaction with people.
Right, so that's one way we useAI.
Another way that we use AI isto help students do their
(19:28):
homework, for example.
So, you know, when somebodygets stuck and they have to
maybe write an email, there canbe a little AI tool that is
going to ask them a couple ofquestions and going to draft
maybe the first version of thatemail.
Right, right, but it's going tobe again the quality of the
questions that we ask that aregoing to drive the quality of
(19:52):
the draft right, right, and thequality of the answers right,
right.
For example, we do, for example, ai tools that work really well
in the e-learning space arerole play.
Jackie Pelegrin (20:05):
Oh, yes, I love role playing with AI.
Nathalie Doremieux (20:08):
Yeah, because role playing with
someone is weird.
Okay, it can be weird, likeunless you know the person, like
she's a friend and like yourole play, but like it's
completely objective and you cansay you can have different
level of role play.
You say, okay, let's role playa whole conversation with an
employee that is not performingand that I might have to let go,
(20:32):
let's just role play.
And then you can say, well,let's role play.
And today you're going to be astudent that also understand
that, or an employee thatunderstand that they are not
performing and it's not workingout as well.
So the conversation is prettymuch going to go well, right,
right.
(20:52):
And now you are the employeethat is like doesn't understand
where this is coming from andit's like questioning why you're
even doing so.
You see, you can even likecreate all these tools and what
this does.
It puts the student not as apassive learner but as a doer,
(21:13):
active learning, right, exactly,it boosts their confidence,
right, their confidence rightthere, um it.
It keeps them committed to theprogram, uh, because they are
seeing that they are makingprogress and they are feeling
supported.
It's interactive, so it'sreally like they don't feel like
(21:35):
alone, almost, you know, infront of the computer,
especially for right right,exactly, but it doesn't have to
be just for e-learning.
You know any, any, any programcould have these extra tools
that you could use either topractice or to help you write
(21:55):
something with 20 names for youronline program, wow.
So you might say, okay, well, Ican just type that in chat GPT,
right, or anywhere and it'sgoing to give me, it's going to
give you 20 boring names, right,and you're going to say no to
(22:15):
none of them, right, right?
But if you create the tool sothat it asks questions like what
kind of experience do you wantpeople to feel like?
Is that a community feeling?
Like, do you want to create,like a safe space for these
people or is it a hub where youwant to have thousands of people
, right?
And so when you ask these keyquestions, then you're going to
(22:37):
have a better answer instead ofsaying give me 20 names for my
course I teach painting.
Jackie Pelegrin (22:42):
Wow yeah that's amazing, I love it.
Nathalie Doremieux (22:45):
Yeah, it's great.
No-transcript, the better theoutput, right.
So that's why, if you just askit, give me 20 names, it's going
to give you 20 names, right,right, but you can have better.
Another thing that we foundwith AI.
(23:06):
So this is a great tip, evenfor you if you're using AI ask
AI to criticize their work.
It comes up with something.
Criticize their work.
It comes up with something.
And maybe you said I want theemail to be engaging.
You know, positive, like.
You know, like maybe there is acertain action that you want
(23:27):
people to get on what you'rewriting.
And then you say, okay, okay,that sounds good.
Now I want you to criticizeyour work, and what it is going
to do is you'll see, it's goingto analyze the answer and it's
going to tell you okay, so I didgood here because, as you can
see, it's engaging.
However, there was a placewhere I could do better.
(23:50):
You're right, right here.
Do you want me to write itagain?
And it's going to give youanother version, and that
version is going to be so muchbetter.
Jackie Pelegrin (23:58):
So much better.
Yeah, that's interestingbecause I did that with.
I don't know if you've usedcanva, their ai tools, but
recently they released canvacode where you can go in and you
can ask it to code things whereit can do interactive types of
content.
So I did just a couple oftesting items I did.
I did a historical timeline forinstructional design and then I
(24:20):
wanted to do a vocabulary gamefor instructional design terms
and it was so funny because thefirst draft it did.
It did pretty good.
But then I asked it can youplease add different elements?
Like I asked it to add a forthe timeline.
I asked it to add a photo or animage to the back of the card
because you would have the frontwhere it had the historical
event and then you would flipthe card over and it would have
(24:42):
the more information about it.
But I'm like I want to have, Idon't want to just have text, I
want to have something wherethey have a visual component.
So then it did that and it tooka little while to do it.
But then it finally came backand I flipped over and I got to
the Addy model and it had thiscircular thing and it had
A-D-D-I-E-E two E's and I waslike whoops, mistake.
(25:05):
And so then I looked at someothers and it just some of the
images just didn't turn outquite well.
So I asked it to please correctit again and it did that.
But it was funny.
I'm like you made a mistakehere and it was like oh, sorry
about the mistake, I'll correctthat, but yeah, it's pretty
interesting.
Nathalie Doremieux (25:21):
And that's why you always have to remember
that the information might notbe correct, right, it's not
right, so you cannot.
So that's why you have to again, you have to feed it that
expertise, right, that eitheridea or like.
(25:41):
Even if you're looking forcontent or podcast ideas, you
could say this is the messageyou know, like I want.
I want to talk about this.
I want to inspire people withthis.
Now give me titles of podcastepisodes that will make people
want to listen.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:58):
Right, that draws them in Exactly.
Nathalie Doremieux (26:00):
That draws them in, right, that keeps that,
sparks their curiosity, right,or you know, or something else,
right?
So it's like the more you tellit instead of saying just give
me 20, 20 podcast titles.
You know I'm an educationaldesigner.
Give me 20 podcast titles.
It's going to be super boring.
Might as well.
Jackie Pelegrin (26:19):
Do Google, you know yeah exactly that's where
that prompt engineering reallycomes into place, because you
can have a conversation with itInstead of just giving it one
line.
I tend to want to have aconversation with it.
We have an internal AI toolthat is similar to ChatGPT.
It uses that technology, butwhat's nice is that it keeps our
(26:40):
information at the institutionproprietary so it doesn't go out
on the web.
But it's really great because ithas Text Insight, which is
where it can take lengthy textand it can make it a little bit
more digestible.
And then it can also taketranscripts from meetings, like
from Microsoft Teams and Zoom,and then you just upload the
(27:01):
transcript and you say can youdo?
And we have prompts.
We have a whole entire OneNotenotebook that has a prompt
library of all these differentthings that we can utilize.
But I don't always go with thesame prompt.
I try to take it and, you know,change it a little bit and I
noticed that the AI will willreact differently each time.
Even if I put the same promptin, it'll come up with something
(27:22):
different.
So it's very interesting howit's never one in the same.
No, it's not, it's not, youknow.
Nathalie Doremieux (27:30):
And another thing, that.
So they did some tests and theyfound that if you use the voice
version instead of writing, youknow, so I don't know if you
have that on on your tool, butlike where you speak instead of
writing, you get even betterresults.
(27:50):
Because we just always say muchmore when we write.
When we speak, sorry, right.
When we speak, we say a lotmore than when we write.
And so when we write, when wespeak, sorry, right.
When we speak, we say a lotmore than when we write.
And so when we write, it's likeit doesn't have to be perfect,
the sentence doesn't have to bewell-formed, we really need to
see it as someone.
That's like sitting next to usand you're asking a question,
(28:13):
and it could be something likeokay, I need to write an article
, but I don't know, I'm notinspired.
Like, help me, ask me questions, and then it's going to ask
questions, literally like ifit's a person.
So you need to use it verydifferently than you use Google.
Google is a search engine,right here, it's very different.
(28:35):
You know it can actually thinkright.
Here, it's very different, youknow it can actually think right
.
So it's literally having aconversation.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:43):
Right.
That's why they call it alanguage learning model, right.
Nathalie Doremieux (28:46):
Because it's having that conversation yeah.
I love it.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:49):
I love that Great.
So what are some tips andadvice that you can share with
those who are currently in thismaster's program in
instructional design at GrandCanyon University?
With those who are currently inthis master's program in
instructional design at GrandCanyon University because we've
actually were implementing AItechnology into the revisions
that we've done recently withthis particular program and so
I've actually got a taste ofthat and I can see where
(29:10):
students are actually able to,they're going to be able in
their assignments to utilize AIto where they can.
Actually, when they'restoryboarding, for example, they
can utilize AI and say can youhelp me with this storyboard and
get the ideas out and thingslike that and scripting and
things like that.
So is there any type of adviceyou would give to them?
It can be on the AI or it canbe in general, like with course
(29:31):
development and things like that.
Nathalie Doremieux (29:33):
Yeah, so I have a couple actually.
So, on AI, I would say thatwith AI, it's easy to get
carried away, right.
It's like let's put AIeverywhere because it's fun.
And it's like gamification.
You're like, when it's too much, it's too much, okay.
Yes, so it's about strategicallyknowing that there might be a
(29:53):
point of difficulty.
Where can we use AI to helpthem?
Is there a prompt we can givethem?
Do they need to practice thisright?
Giving them these tools?
So really seeing AI as a toolwhere we can create tools for
(30:16):
them, but not putting it likeeverywhere for the sake of using
AI.
Oh, I want to use AI.
Where should I put it?
Looking at the problem thatwe're trying to solve and see if
it can be solved with AI, Ithink that's really important
because otherwise you get drawninto everything that's going on
with AI right now, all the toolsthat are coming up.
(30:36):
You start playing and creatingimages and doing all this stuff,
and it's really like we have tostay focused on what it is that
we want to do.
We want to create a programthat really creates the best
experience for our listeners, sothat they see they are making
progress, so they get to the end, with the actual end result.
(30:56):
You know that they sign up for,that they paid for right.
Jackie Pelegrin (31:00):
And it's about.
Nathalie Doremieux (31:01):
What is it that we can do and provide and
how can AI help accelerate that?
Like you know potentialproblems that people might have,
you know, in completing thehomework or things like that, it
could be all still like that AIcan do.
Review, you know, just reviewmy essay.
(31:23):
You know, like, here is myessay, what do you think you
know?
And things like that.
Right.
But yeah, I would say moregenerally that it's really about
I mean, that's how I feel, youknow, when I that's why I got
into this.
You know, helping people designthe program because I was so
frustrated about what peoplewere doing.
(31:43):
You know they would like recordlong, one hour video.
It's like, yeah, it's amazing.
No, like it's, it's, it's, it'sboring to watch, it's not
interactive, people don't knowwhen they need to do something,
or the end of the video, andthey're like, okay, what do I do
now?
It's really keeping up withthose trends, like I was saying,
(32:08):
but it's also remembering thatthe end goal is that we want
people to get results.
It's the learner in mind, thatis what we love to get results
right.
So it's the learner in mind,that is what we love.
I mean, that's one thing.
I think that's for everyone,not just instructional designer,
but that is what we love, howwe love to learn.
(32:28):
But we have to adapt to ouraudience and who this is for,
you know, if they are youngerpeople, if they are older people
, like if they prefer to listenor if they prefer to watch a
video or to read, we have, likethis, multimedia, multiple ways
for people to go through theprograms.
(32:50):
Right, that exist, that's beenthere for years, but it's really
understanding that, like whatis their method of learning and
it's different for everyone,right?
So trying to and incorporatingthat into the programs that we
create, I love that.
Jackie Pelegrin (33:07):
Yes, being able to know there's different
learning styles and yeah, beable to adapt it to that.
Nathalie Doremieux (33:12):
Exactly, even within an audience.
You know there are differentlearning styles, but they are
also based on the audience thatyou have.
You know the busy corporateexecutive doesn't have a lot of
time.
If you tell them there is a onehour video, they're like I'm
never going to be able to fit itin, like I don't know where
it's going to go, right.
So you have to keep thesethings in mind as well.
(33:35):
You have to keep these thingsin mind as well.
Also, like the age of thestudent, right?
A younger student would wantsomething probably shorter, more
playful, where he's rewardedwhen that makes him want to seek
, be curious to see what is thenext thing right Versus an
executive doesn't want to get abadge that says you did it right
(33:58):
.
So it's, you know, it's thisthing.
I think that can really be thedifference between a good
curriculum and a great program.
Jackie Pelegrin (34:12):
Absolutely.
Yeah, my students right nowthey've been learning about
multimedia learning styles.
You know, like Mayer'sPrinciples of Multimedia and
it's.
Yeah, they students right nowthey've been learning about
multimedia learning styles.
You know, like Mayer'sprinciples of multimedia and
it's yeah, they can see in thereal world where things don't
turn out well and yeah.
So it's interesting because oneof the questions I posted them
in my classroom assessmenttechnique this week was about
audio, that good audio makes ahuge difference.
(34:35):
And the question asked them ifyou have a really great video
that has one that has crisp,clear audio, but the, the rest
of it is horrible, do you stilllisten to it Because the audio
is great and but the you knowthe multimedia part on the
screen and the video is notgreat.
Or you know what, if the audiois horrible but the, the visuals
(34:56):
are great, you know which is,the audio is horrible but the
visuals are great, you knowwhich is.
And so one of my studentsanswered and she said, yeah, the
audio was crisp, clear, but thevideo elements, like the
interactive elements, was notthere at all, but she kept
listening to it because theaudio was so good.
So it's very interesting howyou have the auditory learners,
and then you have the ones thatare more visual, and then you
(35:17):
have the kinesthetic right thatwant both.
So it's a very interestingquestion and I hope more of my
students answer that, becauseit's kind of neat to hear those
examples of experiences they'vehad.
Did they keep listening or not?
You know, based on the audioquality.
Yeah, so, yeah, so interesting.
We could go on for so long.
(35:37):
I love it.
Yes, well, I thank you so muchfor coming and giving so much of
your insight, because I thinkthis is great.
Especially with AI technology,we want to be able to do it in a
incorporating, in a meaningfulway, and not have it, like you
said, be a one size fits all oruse it to replace that human
interaction or things that onlywe can do as human beings.
(36:00):
So being able to use it as anassistant, as a tool and and
knowing when to use it.
So I think that's so importantand you know my, my students
love that being able to know,know those things and be able to
digest that and and then applyit to the real, real world.
So that's great, exactly, Ilove that.
Thank you so much, nathalie.
I appreciate your time.
(36:20):
Thank you so much for having me, jackie, thank you.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
(36:44):
I'm truly thankful for you.
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