October 29, 2025 • 30 mins
Tracy King's journey from accidental instructional designer to learning strategist reveals the transformative power of well-designed training experiences. As founder and CEO of InspirEd, they have built their career on making learning accessible and impactful for everyone—especially those whose needs are often overlooked.
One in five learners is neurodivergent, yet traditional training methods frequently create barriers rather than bridges. Tracy breaks down how neuro-inclusive learning approaches can address sensory sensitivities, support executive function challenges, and reconsider outdated social norms. The innovative, entrepreneurial thinking that neurodivergent minds bring is exactly what organizations need to tackle today's complex challenges.
For those entering the field, Tracy offers wisdom born from experience: approach instructional design as both art and science, embrace play and experimentation with new tools, and view feedback as an opportunity rather than criticism. Perfect accessibility doesn't exist—there's only the continuous journey of improvement that makes learning more inclusive with each iteration.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips, and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello instructional designersand educators, welcome to
episode 59 of the Designing withLove podcast.
I'm thrilled to have Tracy King, a learning strategist and the
(00:24):
founder and CEO of InspirEd, alearning and development
organization, with me today.
Welcome, Tracy.
Hey, good to see you.
Tracy King (00:32):
It's good to be here .
Thank you so much.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:34):
Thank you so much for connecting with me on
PodMatch and for us being ableto do this interview today.
I'm so excited and I'm lookingforward to diving in and going
into the different questionsthat we have, so we can learn a
little bit more about what youdo.
Tracy King (00:49):
Yeah, we're about to have some fun.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:51):
Yes, exactly Looking forward to it.
So, to start, can you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
share what inspired you to focuson employee learning and
development?
Tracy King (01:11):
Yeah, yeah, once upon a time I got my first job
out of college and I was workingunder a vice president in an
administrative team and Inoticed that there was a process
that was broken, and so Ipitched to her that a little
piece of training would fix thisprocess and make things work so
much smoother.
And she was like create it.
And I kind of looked around.
I was like you're talking to me, you want me to do that.
(01:34):
And so I created this piece oftraining to improve this
business process.
It was wildly successful and iteliminated the problems and at
the same time I was bit by thebug of designing learning and
the transformative power that ithas.
So I went to graduate school, Istudied the learning sciences
and I began teaching.
(01:55):
I was an instructor ofcommunication studies and used
my classroom as my laboratory tocontinue to understand how do
we connect with our students,our learners, so that they're
invested in what we're teachingand they see what they can get
out of it and we get to thattransformational conclusion
(02:17):
together at the end of thesemester.
Because, I'll tell you, myfirst course was public speaking
and there weren't very manystudents that were excited about
that, right exactly.
Jackie Pelegrin (02:25):
They're just as excited about that as math,
right?
Yeah, it's right up there,right.
Tracy King (02:31):
Some, some, um, yeah , dude.
That attitudes that we had Ihad to also address as part of
my design for the course too.
So it wasn't so scary and itbecame more fun.
So that was my foundation inreally understanding that
there's an art and a sciencebetween learning to actually
(02:53):
make it effective, to reallymake it transformational.
And after a stint in academia,I moved into professional
development and I worked for aprofessional association
focusing on training for theirinternational audience of
physicians and focused ondigital learning so that those
physicians could earn theircredits to meet their
(03:17):
certification recertificationrequirements wherever they were,
whenever they wanted to.
And that became a passion ofmine, seeing the difference
between higher ed and workforcedevelopment.
And eventually I got to a placewhere I was ready to take
everything that I had learnedfrom all of those experiences
and pour that into my business,inspired Ed and work with
(03:41):
professional associations andother workforce development
companies across industries inorder to make their learning
transformational.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:48):
Wow, that's exciting.
I love that.
So you're able to take thatpassion and fuel it into your
business and really helptransform those different
industries.
That's great.
So you have your hand in all ofit now and you're able to see
how that's able to changepeople's lives in many ways.
I love that.
Tracy King (04:07):
That's great.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:09):
There's nothing like it that you can see, that
when you're developing somethingand then you see it come to
fruition and just yeah, it'ssuch a satisfying feeling.
So I know what you're talkingabout with that, because I've
worked in higher education, I'veworked in corporate, you know.
So, yeah, having thatexperience and kind of getting
your toes dipped in both thatit's really nice.
(04:30):
And then you can kind of seewhere where your passion is and
where you really want to focusyour efforts.
So that's great, wonderful.
Tracy King (04:37):
Yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:38):
So we talked a little bit and I know you have a
passion for neuro inclusivelearninglusive learning.
So in what ways isneuro-inclusive learning the
future of workforce development?
Tracy King (04:48):
You know what the future is now, because we know
that cognitive diversity exists,we know that neurodivergent
individuals are on teams,they're in our organizations,
they're our colleagues, they'reour mentors no-transcript and so
(05:33):
that's really something that wefocus on.
It's always been a cornerstoneof the work that I wanted to do
to make sure that learning, inorder to be transformational,
has to be accessible.
It has to include everyone.
Everyone belongs To me.
A foundational piece of being aninstructional designer is that
I want to see every learner thatapproaches my training succeed
against those objectives, and soit's my job to remove as many
barriers as possible to that,partnering with organizations
(06:01):
like IASET, we're theinternational creditors of
continuing education andtraining on neuro inclusion,
trying to really now develop notonly conversation around what
it is and how important it isfor us to invest in it, but some
tools around that too, becausewe know that if we exclude one
in five learners right, then youknow that that has massive
(06:28):
impacts on our teams.
That has massive impacts forthose individuals trying to grow
their careers, and we'retalking about the complexities
of the workforce right now, withthe massive shifts in the
generations, onboarding andoffboarding in the workforce.
So leadership continuity whenwe're talking about revolving
doors in organizations.
(06:49):
When we're talking aboutincentivizing employees to stay
and grow their careers insideorganizations, we're talking
about the transformationalchanges that AI and other new
technologies are bringing, whatthat means for learning.
If we're going to be excludingone in five learners, we're
really going to be in trouble.
We also know thatneurodivergent people are
(07:11):
innovative, they're divergentthinkers, they're
entrepreneurial, and so to meetthese challenges, we need their
innovative brains to be part ofthe conversation, and so
absolutely a cornerstone, Ibelieve, of the future of
workforce development.
Jackie Pelegrin (07:24):
And so absolutely a cornerstone, I
believe, of the future ofworkforce development, right,
wow, yeah, so it's time for usto look at that and step up our
game in that sense.
And yeah, that makes me thinkof universal design for learning
and that type of cornerstone ofhow and I did a podcast episode
in the series of.
It was for one of the soloepisodes.
(07:45):
I did a podcast episode in theseries of.
It was for one of the soloepisodes I did and it was a
whole series on different IDmodels and theories, and one of
the ones that I didn't think ofuntil later on was UDL and being
able to give that informationabout how UDL is so important.
And so it kind of brings usback to that and making it
available and accessible foreverybody, no matter what their
(08:05):
limitations are or anything likethat, and knowing that those
limitations can be good, theycan be, they can be used to
harness good things.
So yeah, we should look at themas as as something to yeah, as a
limitation really, but more asan opportunity to grow.
Yeah, exactly yeah, because wedon't want to limit people and
what they're able to do.
(08:26):
Like you said, a lot of themare innovators and unable to be
entrepreneurs and think of greatideas that maybe someone else
in a group didn't think of.
Tracy King (08:35):
So yeah, I was at UDL Con this summer and was able
to present on neuroinclusionand workforce development, and
we had a really greatconversation.
I like to cluster tools aroundthree primary challenge areas
that we can meet on, and one ofthose being sensory
(08:57):
sensitivities.
What does that mean for ourenvironments?
Learning environments, how weprepare materials, how speakers
instruct learning environments,how we prepare materials, how
speakers instruct Executivefunction challenges.
We're talking about attention.
What that means for someonewith ADHD is different than
someone with a neurotypicalbrain.
What does it mean in terms offocus and harnessing the
(09:17):
resources, of motivations topersist with learning, all of
those kinds of things.
And then there's a lot of normsthat we really need to talk
about, things that are unseen,that we just take for granted,
that are actually exclusionary,that we can create more
structure or more flexibilitydepending on what the norm is
around.
For example, turn-taking Reallychallenging for a lot of
(09:40):
neurodivergent folks.
Structure around turn-taking isreally helpful for a lot of
neurodivergent folks.
Structure around turn-taking isreally helpful.
Norms around eye contact,around using stims like my quiet
little pokey guy here aroundstanding or sitting or allowing
some movement during learning sothat people can regulate their
nervous systems.
Little things like that canradically shift the experience,
(10:02):
and so there's a lot of reallyeasy entry ways.
We can talk about improvinglearning design to ensure that
all brains are able to belong.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:13):
Wow, I love that idea and I think even for
higher education and K through12, we could even take some of
those things that you're workingon and that you're trying to
put forward in the workforcedevelopment arena and be able to
bring that over into otherareas K-12, higher education
because it makes me think ofthis example of where we're
(10:34):
trying to bring moreinteractivity to the curriculum
that I'm working on, and so wehave this platform and it's and
it's internal.
It's called Ignite and it wasmeant to to actually bring more
of that interactivity intosomething where we don't have to
use a third party type ofsoftware to be able to do that.
So they created it in house.
(10:56):
The only thing is is theydidn't consult with the
instructional designers, right?
They didn't consult witheditors to see, okay, if we
import this video, a YouTubevideo, and then we don't give
credit to that video we have inour curriculum, what does that
do?
And I'm sure you face that toowith with clients, where you
(11:18):
have to say, okay, there'sintellectual property, you have
to make sure you're aware ofthat, but also the design
elements of it and making surethat we're not overloading our
learners and not giving them toomuch.
You know, we take into minduniversal design for learning,
cognitive load theory and allthose different things.
So that's really great that youbring that up, because I think
(11:39):
that's so important for us tothink of that, because so many
of our curriculum developersthey come from a K through 12
environment and so they arefamiliar with some of those
things, but then they don't knowhow to translate that to adult
learning and what adult learnersneed versus what children need.
So there's just so many factorsthat go into it Right, and so
(12:00):
special design is not a one sizefits all approach.
Special design is not a onesize fits all approach.
We have to really take it sothat we're still designing it
for everyone, but we think ofall the learners that will touch
that course right.
And touch that learning yeah,that's great.
I love that.
It's good to bring that up andbe able to talk about that,
because we need to have moreconversations about that.
(12:21):
Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
And you talked a little bitabout the next generation, like
Gen Z, that multi-generationalright that's so important.
So, as learning and developmentprofessionals, how do you think
we can create continuingeducation that appeals to the
Gen Z generation?
Tracy King (12:38):
I love this question , in part because I created four
of them.
I'm invested.
Yeah, there was a recent studyconducted by Zen Business and
they were really trying tounderstand some of the unique
characteristics of Gen Z, whatthey're bringing into the
workforce, because we know that,you know, the generations tend
(13:01):
to have their differences ofopinions of how things should
work and there's some clashes inthe cultures of the different
generations.
But some really interestingthings came out of that survey.
One of them is that Gen Z isthe most entrepreneurial and
neurodivergent generation todate.
They're also the most diversegeneration to date and those
(13:24):
three factors really really arecritical to what they bring to
the workforce.
But what they expect fromemployers, from professional
development, from the experienceof a career trajectory like
(13:49):
their previous generations, thatthey think of their career as
more of acquiring portableskills that they can apply in
multiple different ways.
But they really want to findways to apply their zone of
genius to whether it's for workthat they do for themselves,
because they are entrepreneurial, or within organizations, to
make a difference.
Gen Z wants to make adifference.
Gen Z wants to make adifference.
They don't want to punch aclock.
(14:11):
They definitely do want balance, but these factors are really
important when we think abouttraining, because when you think
about an entrepreneurial brain,when you think about a
neurodivergent brain and there'sa big overlap in that then
different types of training andinteractions are going to appeal
to them, and and so it reallybecomes important for us to to
(14:34):
think about how we are um notjust telling, but giving them an
opportunity to to um practiceand also to interact with people
who are doing so.
There are opportunities to notjust info dump, going back to
cognitive load, butopportunities to apply what
(14:54):
they're learning to innovativeproblem solving right.
Opportunities to see diversityin training, but also to
interact with diverseprofessionals.
They're really going to be moreinterested in flexibility when
(15:15):
it comes to when they'relearning, but also some
structure in terms of how can Iapply this?
It has to be practical.
They're a very pragmaticgeneration, and so it's causing
us to ask some differentquestions as designers.
So do we offer skills-basedtraining that addresses their
growth needs and goals?
(15:36):
Are we offering contextual andexperiential learning
opportunities?
Do our materials reflect thediversity that they are?
Are there opportunities tofacilitate intergenerational
industry in like problem solvingtogether?
These are the types ofexperiences that Gen Z really
(15:56):
value and are opportunities forus to not only excite them but
also incentivize them to growwith us in our organizations.
Jackie Pelegrin (16:06):
Right, I love that, and I love that you have
that survey data, thatevidence-based data that you can
bring to the table and you cansay here's what the generation
wants.
Because, as you said, everygeneration wants and needs
different things.
And so, yeah, as we evolve as anation and as a society, it's
so important to take those intoconsideration and not say, well,
(16:29):
we've always done it this way.
I've heard that before withpeople that I've worked with.
Well, it's always worked thisway, so let's just keep doing it
.
And I'm like that's not alwaysthe case.
Yeah, if it's broken, weshouldn't fix it, but at the
same time, we just can't expectthe same result every time.
If something's not working, weshould look at why it's not
(16:50):
working and see what we can do.
Tracy King (16:52):
Gen Z will definitely challenge that too,
Another thing about them is theyare, you know, the ADA
generation.
They are the IDEA generation,so they have been supported in
their neurodivergence and othersupport needs throughout their
entire education.
And so now they're coming intothe workforce and they are armed
(17:13):
with how to advocate for theirsupport needs.
And so previous generationslike mine, Generation X not
really good at advocating forourselves, not really good at
asking for supports, really goodat asking for supports and this
generation is coming in withexpectations that when they ask
for supports that they'll beprovided, that this is how we
(17:33):
live and work and collaboratetogether.
And so there, I think there'ssome surprises for some
employers who aren't used tothat level of self-advocacy that
these, you know, Gen Z iscoming into the workforce ready
for a more mature levelconversation about support needs
.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:29):
Wow, that's great.
I love that and that they'renot afraid to speak up and ask
for what it is that they need,because they know that that's
going to help them be a betteremployee, that's going to help
the organization thrive.
Right, and you've probably seen, that as an entrepreneur right.
If you're able to meet themwhere they're at and help,
support them and come alongsidethem.
I think that really helps tohelp them feel valued, and then
(18:52):
they in turn will bring thatvalue to your organization too
as well.
Tracy King (18:56):
Exactly.
That's great, it's a two-waystreet right, absolutely.
Jackie Pelegrin (19:01):
Yeah, that's great.
You touched a little bit on AIearlier, so that seems to be it
comes up in all my conversationsand interviews.
So, because it's such a, itcame so quickly for us.
But so how do you believe AI istransforming how we create,
deliver and measure learning?
Tracy King (19:28):
And while there are some fun features for us to play
with right now, we can alreadysee, with what's in beta, some
of the ways we need to positionoperationally to be prepared for
that.
Ai is definitely going to shiftwhat the role of instructional
designer is.
We'll definitely becollaborating with AI, so,
instead of being the one whodesigns the experience, what
(19:50):
we're expecting is we're goingto see us shifting more into
content management, like contentarchitecture, but also just
safeguarding the accuracy andbias-free nature of the source
content that AI will be able todynamically assemble.
We'll also be architectinglearning pathways right, instead
(20:15):
of just coursework, which Ithink is going to be really
exciting for us, because we'vebeen talking about the
importance of learning pathwaysand adaptive learning for so
long but haven't quite had thetool set to be able to implement
that, and we're finally goingto get to a place where we can,
which is super exciting.
And I think you know thelearner data piece is going to
be transformational the kind ofdata we'll be able to collect,
(20:41):
but then, you know, readilyapply.
It's really hard now to poolmeaningful learner data that not
only helps the learner advancein their learning goals, but
also informs us and preciselyhow to improve our programs and
then have the time to improveour programs.
Right, exactly.
Yeah, and we're talking aboutthe kind of data pool that will
(21:06):
help us really shift into theskills first workforce that
we're seeing, you know, unfoldright now.
That will radically change howwe develop job task analyses,
which you know are whatundergird certification programs
and big assessmentbasedcertificate programs and other
big continuing educationinitiatives, which will then
(21:30):
shift how we're able to create amore dynamic knowledge base for
different roles in differentindustries, and so some really
exciting things coming to play.
But right now we have some funtools that we get to play with
and imagine into and see howthey can make some of the things
we do more efficient, but thenalso be thinking about how was
(21:51):
this going to radically shift,how I can do things differently
and better.
Jackie Pelegrin (21:56):
Right, exactly, so you can be able to take
something whether it's a brandnew course that you're
developing or you'rere-imagining a course and
revising it, then you canutilize the AI tools to be able
to make it better and be able tomake it more, like you said,
inclusive and really get themready for that workforce.
(22:18):
That's great.
I love that.
Yeah, it makes me think of the4CID model.
You know where we have andbecause there's some workforce
development programs where theyneed to have those skills that
like whether it's flighttraining or something like that
where it's like they reallydepend on that task analysis
type of training where they haveto be able to prove they can do
(22:39):
that before they get into theworkforce.
So medical, you know, nursingthings like that those, those
are so critical, and so I'm surethat you know that's something
you know where you can look atthose different models and then
you can look to see how how canwe integrate that and then
utilize the technology that wehave.
So that's great, yeah, for sure.
Tracy King (22:58):
Right now it's very labor intensive process to you
know, do job task analysis andyou know if we're able to use AI
tools to not only collect butinterpret data.
We could, you know, morequickly see the trends and how
things are shifting, how we canbetter support people in the
workforce to upskill and reskillas needed, because lots of
(23:22):
things are changing folks.
Jackie Pelegrin (23:24):
Right, exactly, yeah, especially with that data
.
You know, because asinstructional designers it's
great when we do get the data,but it's often hard, like you
said, to be able to have notonly the time but to be able to
make those meaningful changesthat the data speaks to right
and be able to make sure thatit's applicable to what they
(23:45):
need.
So we face that a lot with ourprograms and our courses that we
design and we revise, and beable to take that data.
Just today we received studentend of course data.
We received the faculty end ofcourse data.
But it's so much data.
There's nine different collegesthat all have data and there's,
I think, oh I don't know howmany courses there are
(24:06):
throughout the college.
There's at least I thinkthere's like 900 courses across
the college.
So that's a lot of data, that'sa lot of courses.
So being able to take that andso some of my colleagues have
been able to take our internalAI tool and they'll take that
spreadsheet, they'll break itdown and they'll say, okay, I'm
just working on this particulardiscipline, and then they upload
(24:28):
it to the tool and they say canyou give me the highlights?
And then they take that withthem into a revision meeting or
a kickoff and say, okay, here'swhat the data tells us.
How can we leverage that andutilize that?
So it's really great when youcan utilize those tools and help
it to digest that data a littlebit more.
It really helps.
(24:49):
So, yeah, it's great.
I'm trying to utilize it asmuch as I can, too, to help my
subject matter experts so theydon't have to feel like they're
having to start from scratch andthey can at least have
something to start with, andthen they can manipulate it and
say, okay, nope, that doesn'tquite work, let's revise this or
that.
And because sometimes AI justdoesn't quite understand what
(25:11):
the subject matter expertsunderstand, it can't get into
their heads.
So I'm like that's where yourexpertise will come in.
Tracy King (25:18):
So I like that, but that's a good point.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Tracy King (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, alum, right, with that
(25:48):
content expertise that they canquery against.
And so we're going to get to aplace where, as instructional
designers, are more in charge ofcontent architecture and the
accuracy and bias-free nature ofour content, like governing
these LLMs.
Our subject matter expertswon't necessarily be writers
anymore, but they'll be editors.
Right, they're going to betechnical editors.
They're going to be looking forperspective, bias, but how do
(26:12):
we pivot this for differentaudiences?
They're going to be morestrategic around content rather
than us just trying to pull outthe goodies from their brains,
right, right, so that's going tobe a real shift for them and
how we collaborate with them onlearning development.
Jackie Pelegrin (26:30):
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, it's definitelytransforming things, for sure.
That's wonderful.
So, as we wrap up, what areyour top tips or advice for
listeners who are looking totransition into instructional
design or just starting out inthe field, or just starting out
in the field.
Tracy King (26:45):
Well, one thing I would say is that instructional
design is a craft, it's an artand a science, and so there's a
lot of science-y things you canlearn in order to inform the art
of your design.
But the art part is like yougot to get in there and you've
got to play.
You got to be curious, you gotto have some fun with the tools,
(27:11):
and the more you play in thespace, the more confidence that
you'll have in designingtraining that excites your
learners and excites you as adesigner.
The other tip I'll offer isthat when we're talking about
inclusion, we're talking aboutaccessibility and inclusion.
We're always going to be on alearning curve in in learning
design.
So you know, one of theprinciples of UDL is you know
the multiple means of whetherthat's you know how we present
(27:33):
material or assess material, etcetera, and so there's always
going to be another way to dothings and it's okay to be on
that learning curve.
It's okay to never feel like wearrived at perfectly accessible
or inclusive learning and so tojust hold curiosity around that
and to seek feedback and justlook for the nuggets in that
(27:56):
feedback.
Sometimes, when we get feedbackas designers.
It is framed out of frustrationFor someone's experience.
They've experienced barriersrepeatedly in learning and so
it's not about you.
Try not to take it personallyor as a personal attack.
Take it as an opportunity tosee training in a new way and
(28:21):
incorporate a new practice.
And incorporate a new practice.
And if we all were able to setaside the emotion that comes
with feedback sometimes andalways just be in a curious
place of thank you for sharingthat, realizing that when
someone is sharing feedback,even when it's from a frustrated
(28:43):
space, that means that theywant to work with you to improve
things right.
I love that, that we can alwaysbe better together.
And that's really what it'sabout.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:53):
We're always learning.
I love that, so it doesn't feellike it's us against them,
right?
Tracy King (28:59):
Right.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:00):
Yes, because I've had that happen in
different jobs before, wheredifferent people in the
different departments.
It feels like we're pittedagainst each other and we
shouldn't be pitted against eachother and we definitely
shouldn't be, you know, pittedagainst the learners, because
they're the we're creating theseexperiences for them and, yeah,
that's a great way to look atit.
(29:21):
I love that.
Yeah, that shouldn't be usagainst them.
Yeah, because sometimes I thinkthat tends to be what what we
kind of think of it as sometimeseven subject matter experts.
I say this to my, my co workersall the time they're not our
enemy, they're, they're ourcollaborative partner, they're
supposed to work with us.
So, same thing with learners,right?
(29:41):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, great advice, tracy.
I love that Because it's always, it's always hard when you're
first starting out, to take thatfeedback with, with that
intention of what it's supposedto be and not a personal jab,
you know, at us.
So, yeah, that's great, I lovethat.
Well, thank you so much, tracy,for sharing your insights today
(30:01):
.
Your experiences, tips andexpertise are sure to inspire my
learners, so I appreciate it.
So amazing to be here.
Tracy King (30:08):
Thank you so much, Jackie.
Jackie Pelegrin (30:12):
I appreciate it , Thank you.
I look forward to having youback on the show again, because
I think we could talk about somany more things.
I think it'll be wonderful.
Yeah, let's do it All right.
Thank you, Appreciate it.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
(30:35):
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
I'm truly thankful for you.
Hello and welcome to the Designing with
Love podcast.
I am your host, Jackie Pelegrin, where my goal is to bring you
information, tips, and tricks asan instructional designer.
Hello instructional designersand educators, welcome to
episode 59 of the Designing withLove podcast.
I'm thrilled to have Tracy King, a learning strategist and the
(00:24):
founder and CEO of InspirEd, alearning and development
organization, with me today.
Welcome, Tracy.
Hey, good to see you.
Tracy King (00:32):
It's good to be here .
Thank you so much.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:34):
Thank you so much for connecting with me on
PodMatch and for us being ableto do this interview today.
I'm so excited and I'm lookingforward to diving in and going
into the different questionsthat we have, so we can learn a
little bit more about what youdo.
Tracy King (00:49):
Yeah, we're about to have some fun.
Jackie Pelegrin (00:51):
Yes, exactly Looking forward to it.
So, to start, can you tell us alittle bit about yourself and
share what inspired you to focuson employee learning and
development?
Tracy King (01:11):
Yeah, yeah, once upon a time I got my first job
out of college and I was workingunder a vice president in an
administrative team and Inoticed that there was a process
that was broken, and so Ipitched to her that a little
piece of training would fix thisprocess and make things work so
much smoother.
And she was like create it.
And I kind of looked around.
I was like you're talking to me, you want me to do that.
(01:34):
And so I created this piece oftraining to improve this
business process.
It was wildly successful and iteliminated the problems and at
the same time I was bit by thebug of designing learning and
the transformative power that ithas.
So I went to graduate school, Istudied the learning sciences
and I began teaching.
(01:55):
I was an instructor ofcommunication studies and used
my classroom as my laboratory tocontinue to understand how do
we connect with our students,our learners, so that they're
invested in what we're teachingand they see what they can get
out of it and we get to thattransformational conclusion
(02:17):
together at the end of thesemester.
Because, I'll tell you, myfirst course was public speaking
and there weren't very manystudents that were excited about
that, right exactly.
Jackie Pelegrin (02:25):
They're just as excited about that as math,
right?
Yeah, it's right up there,right.
Tracy King (02:31):
Some, some, um, yeah , dude.
That attitudes that we had Ihad to also address as part of
my design for the course too.
So it wasn't so scary and itbecame more fun.
So that was my foundation inreally understanding that
there's an art and a sciencebetween learning to actually
(02:53):
make it effective, to reallymake it transformational.
And after a stint in academia,I moved into professional
development and I worked for aprofessional association
focusing on training for theirinternational audience of
physicians and focused ondigital learning so that those
physicians could earn theircredits to meet their
(03:17):
certification recertificationrequirements wherever they were,
whenever they wanted to.
And that became a passion ofmine, seeing the difference
between higher ed and workforcedevelopment.
And eventually I got to a placewhere I was ready to take
everything that I had learnedfrom all of those experiences
and pour that into my business,inspired Ed and work with
(03:41):
professional associations andother workforce development
companies across industries inorder to make their learning
transformational.
Jackie Pelegrin (03:48):
Wow, that's exciting.
I love that.
So you're able to take thatpassion and fuel it into your
business and really helptransform those different
industries.
That's great.
So you have your hand in all ofit now and you're able to see
how that's able to changepeople's lives in many ways.
I love that.
Tracy King (04:07):
That's great.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:09):
There's nothing like it that you can see, that
when you're developing somethingand then you see it come to
fruition and just yeah, it'ssuch a satisfying feeling.
So I know what you're talkingabout with that, because I've
worked in higher education, I'veworked in corporate, you know.
So, yeah, having thatexperience and kind of getting
your toes dipped in both thatit's really nice.
(04:30):
And then you can kind of seewhere where your passion is and
where you really want to focusyour efforts.
So that's great, wonderful.
Tracy King (04:37):
Yeah.
Jackie Pelegrin (04:38):
So we talked a little bit and I know you have a
passion for neuro inclusivelearninglusive learning.
So in what ways isneuro-inclusive learning the
future of workforce development?
Tracy King (04:48):
You know what the future is now, because we know
that cognitive diversity exists,we know that neurodivergent
individuals are on teams,they're in our organizations,
they're our colleagues, they'reour mentors no-transcript and so
(05:33):
that's really something that wefocus on.
It's always been a cornerstoneof the work that I wanted to do
to make sure that learning, inorder to be transformational,
has to be accessible.
It has to include everyone.
Everyone belongs To me.
A foundational piece of being aninstructional designer is that
I want to see every learner thatapproaches my training succeed
against those objectives, and soit's my job to remove as many
barriers as possible to that,partnering with organizations
(06:01):
like IASET, we're theinternational creditors of
continuing education andtraining on neuro inclusion,
trying to really now develop notonly conversation around what
it is and how important it isfor us to invest in it, but some
tools around that too, becausewe know that if we exclude one
in five learners right, then youknow that that has massive
(06:28):
impacts on our teams.
That has massive impacts forthose individuals trying to grow
their careers, and we'retalking about the complexities
of the workforce right now, withthe massive shifts in the
generations, onboarding andoffboarding in the workforce.
So leadership continuity whenwe're talking about revolving
doors in organizations.
(06:49):
When we're talking aboutincentivizing employees to stay
and grow their careers insideorganizations, we're talking
about the transformationalchanges that AI and other new
technologies are bringing, whatthat means for learning.
If we're going to be excludingone in five learners, we're
really going to be in trouble.
We also know thatneurodivergent people are
(07:11):
innovative, they're divergentthinkers, they're
entrepreneurial, and so to meetthese challenges, we need their
innovative brains to be part ofthe conversation, and so
absolutely a cornerstone, Ibelieve, of the future of
workforce development.
Jackie Pelegrin (07:24):
And so absolutely a cornerstone, I
believe, of the future ofworkforce development, right,
wow, yeah, so it's time for usto look at that and step up our
game in that sense.
And yeah, that makes me thinkof universal design for learning
and that type of cornerstone ofhow and I did a podcast episode
in the series of.
It was for one of the soloepisodes.
(07:45):
I did a podcast episode in theseries of.
It was for one of the soloepisodes I did and it was a
whole series on different IDmodels and theories, and one of
the ones that I didn't think ofuntil later on was UDL and being
able to give that informationabout how UDL is so important.
And so it kind of brings usback to that and making it
available and accessible foreverybody, no matter what their
(08:05):
limitations are or anything likethat, and knowing that those
limitations can be good, theycan be, they can be used to
harness good things.
So yeah, we should look at themas as as something to yeah, as a
limitation really, but more asan opportunity to grow.
Yeah, exactly yeah, because wedon't want to limit people and
what they're able to do.
(08:26):
Like you said, a lot of themare innovators and unable to be
entrepreneurs and think of greatideas that maybe someone else
in a group didn't think of.
Tracy King (08:35):
So yeah, I was at UDL Con this summer and was able
to present on neuroinclusionand workforce development, and
we had a really greatconversation.
I like to cluster tools aroundthree primary challenge areas
that we can meet on, and one ofthose being sensory
(08:57):
sensitivities.
What does that mean for ourenvironments?
Learning environments, how weprepare materials, how speakers
instruct learning environments,how we prepare materials, how
speakers instruct Executivefunction challenges.
We're talking about attention.
What that means for someonewith ADHD is different than
someone with a neurotypicalbrain.
What does it mean in terms offocus and harnessing the
(09:17):
resources, of motivations topersist with learning, all of
those kinds of things.
And then there's a lot of normsthat we really need to talk
about, things that are unseen,that we just take for granted,
that are actually exclusionary,that we can create more
structure or more flexibilitydepending on what the norm is
around.
For example, turn-taking Reallychallenging for a lot of
(09:40):
neurodivergent folks.
Structure around turn-taking isreally helpful for a lot of
neurodivergent folks.
Structure around turn-taking isreally helpful.
Norms around eye contact,around using stims like my quiet
little pokey guy here aroundstanding or sitting or allowing
some movement during learning sothat people can regulate their
nervous systems.
Little things like that canradically shift the experience,
(10:02):
and so there's a lot of reallyeasy entry ways.
We can talk about improvinglearning design to ensure that
all brains are able to belong.
Jackie Pelegrin (10:13):
Wow, I love that idea and I think even for
higher education and K through12, we could even take some of
those things that you're workingon and that you're trying to
put forward in the workforcedevelopment arena and be able to
bring that over into otherareas K-12, higher education
because it makes me think ofthis example of where we're
(10:34):
trying to bring moreinteractivity to the curriculum
that I'm working on, and so wehave this platform and it's and
it's internal.
It's called Ignite and it wasmeant to to actually bring more
of that interactivity intosomething where we don't have to
use a third party type ofsoftware to be able to do that.
So they created it in house.
(10:56):
The only thing is is theydidn't consult with the
instructional designers, right?
They didn't consult witheditors to see, okay, if we
import this video, a YouTubevideo, and then we don't give
credit to that video we have inour curriculum, what does that
do?
And I'm sure you face that toowith with clients, where you
(11:18):
have to say, okay, there'sintellectual property, you have
to make sure you're aware ofthat, but also the design
elements of it and making surethat we're not overloading our
learners and not giving them toomuch.
You know, we take into minduniversal design for learning,
cognitive load theory and allthose different things.
So that's really great that youbring that up, because I think
(11:39):
that's so important for us tothink of that, because so many
of our curriculum developersthey come from a K through 12
environment and so they arefamiliar with some of those
things, but then they don't knowhow to translate that to adult
learning and what adult learnersneed versus what children need.
So there's just so many factorsthat go into it Right, and so
(12:00):
special design is not a one sizefits all approach.
Special design is not a onesize fits all approach.
We have to really take it sothat we're still designing it
for everyone, but we think ofall the learners that will touch
that course right.
And touch that learning yeah,that's great.
I love that.
It's good to bring that up andbe able to talk about that,
because we need to have moreconversations about that.
(12:21):
Absolutely, yeah, definitely.
And you talked a little bitabout the next generation, like
Gen Z, that multi-generationalright that's so important.
So, as learning and developmentprofessionals, how do you think
we can create continuingeducation that appeals to the
Gen Z generation?
Tracy King (12:38):
I love this question , in part because I created four
of them.
I'm invested.
Yeah, there was a recent studyconducted by Zen Business and
they were really trying tounderstand some of the unique
characteristics of Gen Z, whatthey're bringing into the
workforce, because we know that,you know, the generations tend
(13:01):
to have their differences ofopinions of how things should
work and there's some clashes inthe cultures of the different
generations.
But some really interestingthings came out of that survey.
One of them is that Gen Z isthe most entrepreneurial and
neurodivergent generation todate.
They're also the most diversegeneration to date and those
(13:24):
three factors really really arecritical to what they bring to
the workforce.
But what they expect fromemployers, from professional
development, from the experienceof a career trajectory like
(13:49):
their previous generations, thatthey think of their career as
more of acquiring portableskills that they can apply in
multiple different ways.
But they really want to findways to apply their zone of
genius to whether it's for workthat they do for themselves,
because they are entrepreneurial, or within organizations, to
make a difference.
Gen Z wants to make adifference.
Gen Z wants to make adifference.
They don't want to punch aclock.
(14:11):
They definitely do want balance, but these factors are really
important when we think abouttraining, because when you think
about an entrepreneurial brain,when you think about a
neurodivergent brain and there'sa big overlap in that then
different types of training andinteractions are going to appeal
to them, and and so it reallybecomes important for us to to
(14:34):
think about how we are um notjust telling, but giving them an
opportunity to to um practiceand also to interact with people
who are doing so.
There are opportunities to notjust info dump, going back to
cognitive load, butopportunities to apply what
(14:54):
they're learning to innovativeproblem solving right.
Opportunities to see diversityin training, but also to
interact with diverseprofessionals.
They're really going to be moreinterested in flexibility when
(15:15):
it comes to when they'relearning, but also some
structure in terms of how can Iapply this?
It has to be practical.
They're a very pragmaticgeneration, and so it's causing
us to ask some differentquestions as designers.
So do we offer skills-basedtraining that addresses their
growth needs and goals?
(15:36):
Are we offering contextual andexperiential learning
opportunities?
Do our materials reflect thediversity that they are?
Are there opportunities tofacilitate intergenerational
industry in like problem solvingtogether?
These are the types ofexperiences that Gen Z really
(15:56):
value and are opportunities forus to not only excite them but
also incentivize them to growwith us in our organizations.
Jackie Pelegrin (16:06):
Right, I love that, and I love that you have
that survey data, thatevidence-based data that you can
bring to the table and you cansay here's what the generation
wants.
Because, as you said, everygeneration wants and needs
different things.
And so, yeah, as we evolve as anation and as a society, it's
so important to take those intoconsideration and not say, well,
(16:29):
we've always done it this way.
I've heard that before withpeople that I've worked with.
Well, it's always worked thisway, so let's just keep doing it
.
And I'm like that's not alwaysthe case.
Yeah, if it's broken, weshouldn't fix it, but at the
same time, we just can't expectthe same result every time.
If something's not working, weshould look at why it's not
(16:50):
working and see what we can do.
Tracy King (16:52):
Gen Z will definitely challenge that too,
Another thing about them is theyare, you know, the ADA
generation.
They are the IDEA generation,so they have been supported in
their neurodivergence and othersupport needs throughout their
entire education.
And so now they're coming intothe workforce and they are armed
(17:13):
with how to advocate for theirsupport needs.
And so previous generationslike mine, Generation X not
really good at advocating forourselves, not really good at
asking for supports, really goodat asking for supports and this
generation is coming in withexpectations that when they ask
for supports that they'll beprovided, that this is how we
(17:33):
live and work and collaboratetogether.
And so there, I think there'ssome surprises for some
employers who aren't used tothat level of self-advocacy that
these, you know, Gen Z iscoming into the workforce ready
for a more mature levelconversation about support needs
.
Jackie Pelegrin (18:29):
Wow, that's great.
I love that and that they'renot afraid to speak up and ask
for what it is that they need,because they know that that's
going to help them be a betteremployee, that's going to help
the organization thrive.
Right, and you've probably seen, that as an entrepreneur right.
If you're able to meet themwhere they're at and help,
support them and come alongsidethem.
I think that really helps tohelp them feel valued, and then
(18:52):
they in turn will bring thatvalue to your organization too
as well.
Tracy King (18:56):
Exactly.
That's great, it's a two-waystreet right, absolutely.
Jackie Pelegrin (19:01):
Yeah, that's great.
You touched a little bit on AIearlier, so that seems to be it
comes up in all my conversationsand interviews.
So, because it's such a, itcame so quickly for us.
But so how do you believe AI istransforming how we create,
deliver and measure learning?
Tracy King (19:28):
And while there are some fun features for us to play
with right now, we can alreadysee, with what's in beta, some
of the ways we need to positionoperationally to be prepared for
that.
Ai is definitely going to shiftwhat the role of instructional
designer is.
We'll definitely becollaborating with AI, so,
instead of being the one whodesigns the experience, what
(19:50):
we're expecting is we're goingto see us shifting more into
content management, like contentarchitecture, but also just
safeguarding the accuracy andbias-free nature of the source
content that AI will be able todynamically assemble.
We'll also be architectinglearning pathways right, instead
(20:15):
of just coursework, which Ithink is going to be really
exciting for us, because we'vebeen talking about the
importance of learning pathwaysand adaptive learning for so
long but haven't quite had thetool set to be able to implement
that, and we're finally goingto get to a place where we can,
which is super exciting.
And I think you know thelearner data piece is going to
be transformational the kind ofdata we'll be able to collect,
(20:41):
but then, you know, readilyapply.
It's really hard now to poolmeaningful learner data that not
only helps the learner advancein their learning goals, but
also informs us and preciselyhow to improve our programs and
then have the time to improveour programs.
Right, exactly.
Yeah, and we're talking aboutthe kind of data pool that will
(21:06):
help us really shift into theskills first workforce that
we're seeing, you know, unfoldright now.
That will radically change howwe develop job task analyses,
which you know are whatundergird certification programs
and big assessmentbasedcertificate programs and other
big continuing educationinitiatives, which will then
(21:30):
shift how we're able to create amore dynamic knowledge base for
different roles in differentindustries, and so some really
exciting things coming to play.
But right now we have some funtools that we get to play with
and imagine into and see howthey can make some of the things
we do more efficient, but thenalso be thinking about how was
(21:51):
this going to radically shift,how I can do things differently
and better.
Jackie Pelegrin (21:56):
Right, exactly, so you can be able to take
something whether it's a brandnew course that you're
developing or you'rere-imagining a course and
revising it, then you canutilize the AI tools to be able
to make it better and be able tomake it more, like you said,
inclusive and really get themready for that workforce.
(22:18):
That's great.
I love that.
Yeah, it makes me think of the4CID model.
You know where we have andbecause there's some workforce
development programs where theyneed to have those skills that
like whether it's flighttraining or something like that
where it's like they reallydepend on that task analysis
type of training where they haveto be able to prove they can do
(22:39):
that before they get into theworkforce.
So medical, you know, nursingthings like that those, those
are so critical, and so I'm surethat you know that's something
you know where you can look atthose different models and then
you can look to see how how canwe integrate that and then
utilize the technology that wehave.
So that's great, yeah, for sure.
Tracy King (22:58):
Right now it's very labor intensive process to you
know, do job task analysis andyou know if we're able to use AI
tools to not only collect butinterpret data.
We could, you know, morequickly see the trends and how
things are shifting, how we canbetter support people in the
workforce to upskill and reskillas needed, because lots of
(23:22):
things are changing folks.
Jackie Pelegrin (23:24):
Right, exactly, yeah, especially with that data
.
You know, because asinstructional designers it's
great when we do get the data,but it's often hard, like you
said, to be able to have notonly the time but to be able to
make those meaningful changesthat the data speaks to right
and be able to make sure thatit's applicable to what they
(23:45):
need.
So we face that a lot with ourprograms and our courses that we
design and we revise, and beable to take that data.
Just today we received studentend of course data.
We received the faculty end ofcourse data.
But it's so much data.
There's nine different collegesthat all have data and there's,
I think, oh I don't know howmany courses there are
(24:06):
throughout the college.
There's at least I thinkthere's like 900 courses across
the college.
So that's a lot of data, that'sa lot of courses.
So being able to take that andso some of my colleagues have
been able to take our internalAI tool and they'll take that
spreadsheet, they'll break itdown and they'll say, okay, I'm
just working on this particulardiscipline, and then they upload
(24:28):
it to the tool and they say canyou give me the highlights?
And then they take that withthem into a revision meeting or
a kickoff and say, okay, here'swhat the data tells us.
How can we leverage that andutilize that?
So it's really great when youcan utilize those tools and help
it to digest that data a littlebit more.
It really helps.
(24:49):
So, yeah, it's great.
I'm trying to utilize it asmuch as I can, too, to help my
subject matter experts so theydon't have to feel like they're
having to start from scratch andthey can at least have
something to start with, andthen they can manipulate it and
say, okay, nope, that doesn'tquite work, let's revise this or
that.
And because sometimes AI justdoesn't quite understand what
(25:11):
the subject matter expertsunderstand, it can't get into
their heads.
So I'm like that's where yourexpertise will come in.
Tracy King (25:18):
So I like that, but that's a good point.
Jackie Pelegrin (25:21):
Yeah, exactly.
Tracy King (25:23):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah, alum, right, with that
(25:48):
content expertise that they canquery against.
And so we're going to get to aplace where, as instructional
designers, are more in charge ofcontent architecture and the
accuracy and bias-free nature ofour content, like governing
these LLMs.
Our subject matter expertswon't necessarily be writers
anymore, but they'll be editors.
Right, they're going to betechnical editors.
They're going to be looking forperspective, bias, but how do
(26:12):
we pivot this for differentaudiences?
They're going to be morestrategic around content rather
than us just trying to pull outthe goodies from their brains,
right, right, so that's going tobe a real shift for them and
how we collaborate with them onlearning development.
Jackie Pelegrin (26:30):
Wow, that's amazing.
Yeah, it's definitelytransforming things, for sure.
That's wonderful.
So, as we wrap up, what areyour top tips or advice for
listeners who are looking totransition into instructional
design or just starting out inthe field, or just starting out
in the field.
Tracy King (26:45):
Well, one thing I would say is that instructional
design is a craft, it's an artand a science, and so there's a
lot of science-y things you canlearn in order to inform the art
of your design.
But the art part is like yougot to get in there and you've
got to play.
You got to be curious, you gotto have some fun with the tools,
(27:11):
and the more you play in thespace, the more confidence that
you'll have in designingtraining that excites your
learners and excites you as adesigner.
The other tip I'll offer isthat when we're talking about
inclusion, we're talking aboutaccessibility and inclusion.
We're always going to be on alearning curve in in learning
design.
So you know, one of theprinciples of UDL is you know
the multiple means of whetherthat's you know how we present
(27:33):
material or assess material, etcetera, and so there's always
going to be another way to dothings and it's okay to be on
that learning curve.
It's okay to never feel like wearrived at perfectly accessible
or inclusive learning and so tojust hold curiosity around that
and to seek feedback and justlook for the nuggets in that
(27:56):
feedback.
Sometimes, when we get feedbackas designers.
It is framed out of frustrationFor someone's experience.
They've experienced barriersrepeatedly in learning and so
it's not about you.
Try not to take it personallyor as a personal attack.
Take it as an opportunity tosee training in a new way and
(28:21):
incorporate a new practice.
And incorporate a new practice.
And if we all were able to setaside the emotion that comes
with feedback sometimes andalways just be in a curious
place of thank you for sharingthat, realizing that when
someone is sharing feedback,even when it's from a frustrated
(28:43):
space, that means that theywant to work with you to improve
things right.
I love that, that we can alwaysbe better together.
And that's really what it'sabout.
Jackie Pelegrin (28:53):
We're always learning.
I love that, so it doesn't feellike it's us against them,
right?
Tracy King (28:59):
Right.
Jackie Pelegrin (29:00):
Yes, because I've had that happen in
different jobs before, wheredifferent people in the
different departments.
It feels like we're pittedagainst each other and we
shouldn't be pitted against eachother and we definitely
shouldn't be, you know, pittedagainst the learners, because
they're the we're creating theseexperiences for them and, yeah,
that's a great way to look atit.
(29:21):
I love that.
Yeah, that shouldn't be usagainst them.
Yeah, because sometimes I thinkthat tends to be what what we
kind of think of it as sometimeseven subject matter experts.
I say this to my, my co workersall the time they're not our
enemy, they're, they're ourcollaborative partner, they're
supposed to work with us.
So, same thing with learners,right?
(29:41):
Yeah, I love that.
Yeah, great advice, tracy.
I love that Because it's always, it's always hard when you're
first starting out, to take thatfeedback with, with that
intention of what it's supposedto be and not a personal jab,
you know, at us.
So, yeah, that's great, I lovethat.
Well, thank you so much, tracy,for sharing your insights today
(30:01):
.
Your experiences, tips andexpertise are sure to inspire my
learners, so I appreciate it.
So amazing to be here.
Tracy King (30:08):
Thank you so much, Jackie.
Jackie Pelegrin (30:12):
I appreciate it , Thank you.
I look forward to having youback on the show again, because
I think we could talk about somany more things.
I think it'll be wonderful.
Yeah, let's do it All right.
Thank you, Appreciate it.
Thank you for taking some timeto listen to this podcast
episode today.
Your support means the world tome.
If you'd like to help keep thepodcast going, you can share it
with a friend or colleague,leave a heartfelt review or
(30:35):
offer a monetary contribution.
Every act of support, big orsmall, makes a difference and
I'm truly thankful for you.
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