November 6, 2024 • 42 mins
Have you ever found yourself itching to intervene in someone else’s business - oops, journey, lol - only to realize that stepping back could be the most loving act of all?
Join us as we unravel the art of accepting others just as they are. We begin by wrestling with the difficult concept of letting go, allowing loved ones to navigate their own paths—even when they're headed toward a metaphorical train wreck. By acknowledging their divine journey and trusting in their inherent wisdom, we explore how our impulse to ‘save’ might stifle their growth. Together, we investigate the power of autonomy, offering love without absorbing their chaos.
We explore the delicate dance between helping and controlling, particularly in parenting. Picture this: homework time turns into a battleground of wills. Reflecting on these moments, we address our imperfections and the discomfort that arises from witnessing struggles. Is our desire to help rooted in genuine concern, or is it a veil for our own need to control? Through our shared anecdotes, we invite you to cultivate self-awareness, learning when to lend a hand and when to step back. This delicate balance encourages others to learn, grow, and ultimately thrive on their own terms.
As we move towards the heart of acceptance, we emphasize the importance of personal responsibility and emotional sobriety. Consider this an invitation to embrace neutrality, express feelings without judgment, and set boundaries to maintain your well-being. By staying grounded and recognizing your choices, you allow yourself and others the space to flourish.
The episode concludes by exploring the peace that blooms from loving acceptance, inspiring a shift from chaos to trust. Join Brenda and Catherine for a journey of acceptance, trust, and the embrace of authentic connection.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm, catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Hello and welcome back.
Hello, family and listeners,friends, so happy to have you.
Without you, it would just beme and Brenda hanging out.
(01:35):
So thank you so much forlistening.
Today we have a juicy topic.
It is how can we let people bewhere they are, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
psyched for this one, brenda.
Hey, brenda, so psyched.
I think this is a really trickyone for people, really tricky.
How do you let people be wherethey are?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Absolutely it's really tricky, because how do
you let people be where they are?
Absolutely it's really trickybecause, well, we're all
geniuses and we just know how tolive other people's lives so
well.
It's like my way is so muchbetter than the way this peon is
thinking of doing their thing.
I can see the train wreckcoming.
Maybe they're about to losetheir spouse or spend all their
(02:26):
money, or they need to stopgambling, or they need to stop
drinking, or they need to wakeup on time, or I want them to
take cold plunges or whatever.
Insert said thing, I think.
Or maybe they're depressed andI'm like you don't have anything
to be depressed about.
Get happy and joyful, god darnit.
But it's a trip right.
(02:49):
Allowing people to just be wherethey are and have that be okay,
is such a portal.
It's like a portal of growth.
One of the things that madethat possible for me was to
remember that all humans are aspark of God and they are a
(03:09):
divine soul and their soul knowsbetter than me.
Their human may need my help,their human may have a question,
and I can communicate with thathuman and interact with that
human, but always trusting that,with or without me, they're
(03:33):
going to make it.
I don't have to be in theirlife for them not to make it.
I trust that God has got theirback.
I don't have to be the laststop on their train station.
God has them eternally and thatit is not my responsibility
(03:53):
either to be their last stop.
I will do what I can and whatis within my range, but I cannot
then abandon myself, like nottake care of myself, maybe not
eat, sleep or take care of myown responsibilities, because I
feel that, uh-oh, this personand their train wreck whatever
their train wreck is is moreimportant than what's happening
(04:17):
in my life, because maybe mylife doesn't have a lot of chaos
and I think I get all thisanxious sensations in my body.
This person has tons of chaosand I have to fix it.
No, I get all this anxioussensations in my body.
This person has tons of chaosand I have to fix it.
No, I don't.
This person can perfectly be intheir chaos.
I do not have to take them outof it.
It is such a gift to allowpeople to be where they are in
(04:38):
their own process, withoutfeeling sorry for them.
Allow them to be in theirprocess by seeing them as fully
capable.
And then I have heard thisquestion.
So what does helping look like,right?
Helping in this case would beoh, I see this train wreck
coming such and such, or wouldyou like my help in some way?
(05:00):
Did you want a reflection?
Would you like to be heard orseen in anything?
And if the person says no, thenit's a no, there's no consent,
and the best thing I can do forthem is not give them advice.
The best thing I can do forthem in that moment is love them
(05:23):
where they are.
Maybe I see them as imperfector maybe I have my own judgments
about where they are andrecognize these are my judgments
.
I get to still love them intheir mess.
I get to still love them intheir chaos, and my job is to
not take their chaos on.
All right, boom end sermon.
(05:46):
What comes up for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Wow, okay, first of all, you're saying, oh, it's
just a gift to let people bewhere they are.
I would love for you to saymore about that, because people
are listening and they're like Idon't see how this could be a
gift.
If somebody that I love is inpain or struggling or grieving
or about to fall off aproverbial cliff, you're saying
(06:15):
I should leave them alonebecause that's the gift.
Yeah, please say more aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That is definitely a gift, because that person is
about to learn how to fall offthe cliff.
That person is about to learnhow to fall on their face and
stand up again.
That person is about totraverse a portal and what I
(06:43):
perceive as helping air quotesthem or saving air quotes them
is actually harmful.
The only way that in that timeit's helpful is if they ask me
for help and I have to be surethat I'm not taking the job on,
(07:05):
because anytime that I take thejob on for another person, I
know that we are just kickingtheir can down the road.
That lesson is coming up forthem for a reason.
So I'm going to use something.
Really.
Let's say somebody can't paytheir rent.
They come to me, they can't paytheir rent, and we're in
October.
(07:26):
They can't pay their rent.
We're in November.
They can't pay their rent.
We're in December.
They can't pay their rent.
So at what point does thisperson learn to pay their rent?
If I'm constantly paying theirrent, right it's why would they
have to learn?
But if October comes, and let'ssay if I was and this is all
(07:46):
monetary right, so if I paysomeone's rent, I'm in a
financial position that it woulddefinitely set me back right.
I don't have so much of it togive, so I would be abandoning
some of myself and some of myown safety and security in order
to help somebody else.
That in itself doesn't feelright.
In order to help somebody else?
(08:07):
That in itself doesn't feelright.
But if this person can learnhow to pay their rent, well, we
are now going into November tobetter humans.
I still have my safety andsecurity, and they are feeling
even more safe and more securein their ability to pay for
their own bills.
Right, just as an example?
Yes, does that make it clear,or should?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I give a different metaphor.
No, I think that's really clear, but if you have a different
one, give that one too, becauseI think that this is a really
hard one for people.
So, yeah, go for it.
I'm thinking of on the street.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I want to think about tithing, or I want to think
about, like giving to homelesspeople that are potentially high
and drinking or using heroin orsomething like that.
And some people are the schoolof thought of like, oh, I give
them because God is in allplaces and I give the tithe
because I don't know, you know,maybe that was God.
There's this whole like maybethat was God.
(09:07):
God put this person in front ofme and there's a very I hear
this a lot in like religiouscircles.
And then there are people thatare like, no, I'm not giving
them anything because they'rejust going to go get high and
you know, et cetera.
And what if the dose I gavethem killed them?
And either way, it doesn't feelgood to me.
(09:29):
For me, the bottom line is do Ihave to give it or not?
And that's how I vote.
If I have to give it, I'll giveit, and if I give it to the
homeless heroin backslashalcoholic once I give it, like
it's out of my hands what thatperson does or doesn't do is not
(09:49):
of my business, none of mybusiness, because my only job
was to decide if I was giving ornot giving.
I don't have to worry aboutwhether it's their last dose, if
they OD'd or didn't OD, and Idon't have to worry about
whether or not God was there,and purgatory for me is around
the corner.
It's really looking at just whatam I responsible for and what's
(10:14):
on my side of the street, and Ican say that I'm a huge
recoverer in this.
And there is a place where,when we rescue people, we take
them, we save them from thetrain wreck that we really don't
see them as capable, and whereI'm jumping in and I'm like no,
(10:39):
no, no, here, take this, let mepay your rent, because I'm like
well, this X, y or Z is nevergoing to be able to pay their
rent, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
I potentially have like athought process around that.
That's none of my business.
I can either help or not help.
But the other thing it does isthat it makes us feel amazing
(11:02):
because we can just be theperson that goes in and swoop
here it is, fixes, all thethings.
We're amazing and now we haveeverybody's responsibility on
our plates and it's reallystressful.
I mean, let's be honest, rightnow, what I have in my own life,
on my own plate, is enough,like I don't need to take on
(11:24):
other people's things, and I amaware now that by taking it on,
I am seeing them as uncapable,which is very unkind, and I
would say here the thing that'scoming to mind right now is like
I always want to teach a man tofish, versus give him a fish.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, that's beautiful, and I love what
you're saying here, that if weare saving people from the
experience that they're havingthat they created, that we're
seeing them as incapable and howunkind that is.
It kind of breaks my heart,right.
(12:10):
And we people do this all thetime.
People are generally walkingaround saving each other all the
time, and you're also sayingthat we get to feel amazing
about it.
We get to feel really amazingabout ourselves that we helped
somebody, and we're not sayingdon't help people.
(12:33):
Maybe there's times that youhelp people, right, we're not
suggesting that, but you'retalking about something way
deeper than just helping someone.
You're talking about, like,saving someone from the problem
that they created, as opposed tobeing there for them and maybe
witnessing them or guiding themthrough it in some way.
(12:55):
And what also comes up for mearound this is this is a great
way to avoid our own life.
Our own life she's rolling hereyes.
This is a great way for us toavoid our own life by helping
others.
And when you talk aboutabandoning yourself to help
(13:16):
others, it's kind of a silentone that we don't necessarily
see, because we're taking all ofour attention and potential
resources and giving it tosomebody else.
So what would you say?
How do you help someone?
You gave a few examples beforeyou said asking them do you want
a reflection?
Do you want to be heard or seen?
Can you say more about that?
(13:37):
Because if you're not going togive someone the money for their
rent, what can you do?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Oh, I love that question, yeah, okay.
So let's say then, my questionswould be is this a place you
can really afford?
Are you living somewhere whereyou really can't afford it?
Do we have to make otherchanges?
Do you have to make otherchanges?
I use the word we here, butit's really this person.
Does this person need to changethe way that they're living?
(14:04):
Does something have to change?
Does this person potentiallyneed a different income stream,
a different job?
Does this person where is thisperson spending their money?
Are they over budgeted?
Did something happen?
Has there been a catastropheLike it would be?
Oh, I understand that you're inthis predicament.
Did you want me to help youfigure out how you got here?
(14:25):
Do you foresee yourself beingable to get out?
Like, how can I actually helpyou?
Right, because this is a biggerproblem than just this month if
we're not looking at all theseother pieces and parts right.
The thing that I had thoughtabout right now is when you're
helping children with theirhomework and they're like just
(14:48):
give me the answer.
And it's like well, no, it'syour homework.
Like you need to be able topass the test right?
So often we want to help peopleand we want to point them to
the answer, sometimes even givethem the answer if it's helpful.
The question I'm always askingmyself is am I really helping?
(15:09):
And listen, don't get me wrong,I'm not a Mother Teresa type.
So there are plenty of peoplethat are in my circle that if
they ask me for things, Ipotentially would potentially
abandon myself and drop somethings along the way.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, butI'm not in delusion about it.
I'm aware, oh, I'm about to dothis and I'm totally abandoning
(15:32):
myself here because of X, y or Z.
I'm not like, oh, I'm doingthis because I mean, who else is
going to do it?
I hear that a lot.
Right, like, well, if I don'thelp, who's going to help them?
Or I had to do it because ofblah, blah, blah blah.
And I'm like, no, no, no, Iknow I don't have to do this.
I'm choosing to do this and indoing so, I recognize that I'm
(15:57):
seeing this person as incapable.
In doing this, I recognize thatI'm taking away their learning
lesson.
In doing this, I am justcontributing to pushing the can
or kicking the can down the road.
I am fully aware, and sometimesI still do it, but it's very
different to be in that energythan the energy that I used to
live by, and I do it a lot less.
I mean it's a lot less often.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, thank you for your honesty about that, because
we're not perfect.
Over here we're discussing thisand chewing on it and this is a
practice.
It's like a deep commitment toyourself, right To take care of
yourself and be present forother people that you love,
without saving them from theirown problems, because then we're
not really helping them.
So I really appreciate yourhonesty and same over here.
(16:39):
This is something that I workon all the time, especially
being a mother not so much anissue now, but you know, when my
kids were growing up, you know,with the homework or projects,
like it's just a really bigthing.
Mother is wanting to save theirchildren so they don't have to
have it hard, they don't have tohurt.
Well, hurting or falling orfailing is really how we grow.
(17:03):
So for our listeners, it's okay, you know.
It's okay If you are doing this.
It's okay If you paidsomebody's rent, it's okay If
you did your kid's homework.
But it's a good question to askyourself why, right and what?
What don't you want to be withby doing this action?
(17:24):
What are you avoiding inyourself?
What don't you want to feel orexperience?
That you're kind of controllingit?
Would you say that this iscontrol by?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
fixing someone's problems.
We fix someone's problems.
We don't want to see them indiscomfort.
We don't want to experiencewhat it feels like to see them
in discomfort.
We also jump in to keep someonefrom behaving in a particular
way.
It is controlling, and we dothat because we don't like when
they do something so like anal-anonic who is trying to hide
(18:03):
all the alcohol from thealcoholic.
It's because, well, you don'tlike when the alcoholic is
drinking, right, I don't want togo too far down that one.
That was the example that camein my head.
But I'll think of somethingelse.
Let's say a wife who doesn'tlike the way her husband
responded to her and now she'sso annoyed that he's well,
(18:27):
insert, he's so, insert word,whatever word you want to use.
He's such a whatever, pick yourown word and is now pissed off
that he's this way and that's achoice.
I mean, we get to be angry inthe beginning, but if generally
he's that way, he's just thatway and so it's, if it's kind of
(18:50):
predictable, then why are wegetting twisted about stuff like
that?
Why are we trying to keeppeople from behaving like oh,
now I have a good idea, a goodexample You're with your partner
and I'm just using men.
I'm so sorry, sorry, men, butthese are the examples that are
coming to my head.
You're with your partner in thecar and he experiences road
(19:11):
rage and it's like, oh mygoodness, is he really trying to
kill the car in front of usagain?
Why is he doing this?
And it's like, well, clearly hehas unexpressed rage, like
that's what's happening.
Do I tell him hey, honey, youknow what Is this really about
the car in the front?
Really, what I think ishappening is that you have
(19:34):
unexpressed rage, babe.
And so what I think we shoulddo is we should go home and
figure or like, whatever I comeup with a solution.
No, no, no, that is not my lane.
Like, if he pulls out a gun,then maybe that becomes my lane,
but short of some kind ofmurder, it's not really my lane.
(19:54):
We're all kind of safe and Ijust am uncomfortable because
this person is experiencing rage.
And now I'm in their vicinityand I'm like, oh my God, this is
so uncomfortable, I want thisto stop.
That's not the point ofstopping that right, like the
point to stop that would havebeen when we were in the dating
phase, when I first saw his rage, when I first witnessed it.
(20:15):
That would have been the timeto exit or to address it, not
you know X amount of years laterin the car, as he's having a
rage moment on the street.
That's an example that's comingto mind for me where we are
wanting to change thecircumstances because I can't
just be with where he's at.
(20:36):
I have a sibling who drives kindof loony sometimes and he just
thinks it's fun.
So one time he's like drivingand there's a snowstorm and the
car swerving and it's doing a360, et cetera.
And he looks at me.
He's like you're really notscared.
And I'm like well, the worstthing that could happen is that
we die.
And he just giggled.
(20:58):
I was like I am not going toget myself revved up, like this
is you're having a good time.
Okay, like it's not my cup oftea, but there was nothing to do
there, I just was.
And then all of a sudden hestarted driving like a normal
human, like he really wanted tosee me scared for whatever
(21:22):
reason.
His kick, right.
I'm using this as an example.
Is that a good example of likewhere I'm not?
But let's say oh.
Let's say I have a wound.
Let's say I've been inaccidents before, right, let's
say I've had tons and tons ofcar accidents.
Like what are the chances thatI can hold myself and regulate
myself as this is happening?
He's driving like a lunatic,probably a slim to zero, right.
(21:43):
But I trust him.
I'm like I don't think he wantsto like kill me and himself.
Like I think he's just having agood time over here.
Whatever, I trust that we'regonna be okay this is great.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
so you're saying that if we have a wound there
ourselves, that it's going to beharder to be present with
somebody else and to stay steadyand have a grounded nervous
system?
Where, if we don't have a wound,it's going to be like fine,
okay, great, drive like a maniac.
Because most people listening Ithink most people listening.
(22:19):
I would love to hear, please,let us know.
If somebody's driving like amaniac, most people do tense up,
most people become backseatdrivers, most people are telling
the driver how to drive.
So what would you say to thosepeople?
This is a great example becauseI think everyone can relate.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I would say, hopefully that's not the person
that drives all the time, like,hopefully you're, you don't have
to have that kind of vigilanceup all the time.
This is something that happened, but it's not always or all the
time, and the fact that itwasn't that much fun for my
brother that one time it hasn'treally happened Right, cause I'm
(23:03):
not like fun to make fun of orI'm not fun to freak out in that
way Cause it wasn't joyful forhim.
And so my question would belike how can you have safety in
that environment?
Like what is needed andwhatever is needed, try to gain
it after the fact, becauseyou're not going to be able to
(23:25):
talk to or be a backstreetdriver in that moment, like
you're probably going to clenchthe door handle right or maybe
the bottom of the seat, becauseyou're activated, like your
nervous system is activated andyou're wanting to say something,
do something, jump in, changethe circumstances, and the
(23:47):
person who's behavingerratically is also activated,
and so activated and activatedusually not the best combination
.
So you want to get to the placewhere you're regulated and you
get to say when I see you, whenyou drive like that, when I'm in
the car, I get scared.
And then the person is going tosay, well, I can't believe, you
(24:10):
, don't trust that I'm a gooddriver or that you think I'm
going to hurt you or whateverthe things are for this person,
and you get to say I get it.
It may not be rational, you mayfeel like you completely have
it.
I just want you to know that,as a passenger, it doesn't feel
good to me.
So you get to state where youare I love that.
(24:31):
It's going to be really hard tolove them where they are when
you currently feel like they'retrying to kill you.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Right hard to love them where they are, when you
currently feel like they'retrying to kill you, right?
Well, I think there's thisspecial sauce that you're saying
in here is the approval youknow you're saying well, the
worst that happens is that weboth die in a car accident.
That is the worst, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And that's pretty bad .
Most people would not be inapproval of that.
Well, I mean, I guess the worstthing that could happen is that
you know I'm paralyzed.
I guess that would be worse.
Let them alive and paralyzed.
That would really suck a lot.
But I still don't have anycontrol over it.
No, like, not really.
I may think that's the thing.
The mind thinks you havecontrol over it, but if this
person has lost it or they'reteasing you, they're just effing
(25:20):
around to find out.
Right, yeah, how much controldo I really have over this whole
other human being, other thantelling them it wasn't okay?
I got really scared.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, it wasn't okay.
I got really scared.
Yeah, I think there's aneutrality in your voice when
you're talking about this thatmost people sitting in the
passenger seat probably don'thave.
Mostly people in the passengerseat become or agitated, they're
judgmental, they are blamey,right, and you get really pretty
(25:59):
nasty being a backseat driver.
And if you're scared, there's areason you're being scared and
your, you know your emotions arecoming out in that way.
But what I'm hearing you saying, which is the special sauce, is
this neutrality and also a deepsense of personal
responsibility.
You're not telling him to stopdriving like a crazy maniac.
(26:22):
You're saying I feel reallyscared when you drive this way
and that's very different, yeah,and I think that's the special
sauce of what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, I'm not letting him know that I think he's a
lunatic or that there'ssomething very wrong in the
brain.
Well, it's not letting him knowthat I think he's a lunatic or
that there's something verywrong in the brain.
Well, it's not helpful.
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It would just activate him.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, it turns into name calling versus how can I
live and let live, which isreally what we're talking about,
right, exactly.
How can I live and let live?
Okay, I want to live and I wantto be less activated.
I want my nervous system to berelaxed to a certain extent and
(27:04):
I'm only going to have so muchaccess to the places in which I
can control that, and I enjoyliving my life, so I'm not going
to be sheltered in a bubble, soI'm going to take a certain
amount of risk.
Right, like when I'm going totake a certain amount of risk
right, like when I'm walkingdown the street I can get hit by
somebody I don't even know whomade the wrong turn and I never
(27:26):
got a chance to talk to thatperson.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Maybe somebody was in the passenger seat of that car
saying slow down, buddypassenger seat of that car
saying slow down, buddy, maybeRight?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
My point is we can become so fixated on all the
pieces that we think we cancontrol, but the truth is we
really can't control it.
Now, if I would have said thatto my brother and then every
time we got into the cartogether he behaved that way,
then my responsibility would beto not get into the car with my
brother anymore and just be likeI love that you're willing to
(28:02):
drive, but whenever you drive, Ireally have a lot of agita,
like I can't take it and I'm notasking you to drive differently
, like I will find a differentway to get there.
Right, that's my responsibilityand I'm not requesting for this
person to change in any way,shape or form.
They get to walk through theirlife and live their life how
they want to live it, and I getto walk through my life and live
(28:23):
my life the way I want to liveit.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, that's really genius.
So if you don't like what'shappening, then you can try to
communicate it, yeah Right.
And then you also get to have aboundary.
You get to decide for yourselfwhat you want to engage in and
what you don't.
And I think this is a reallyhard piece for people as well To
(28:45):
know that you actually have achoice.
You could decide I don't wantto get in the car with this
person or I don't want to.
You know, this could beanything.
It could be.
I don't want to spend the daywith this person because I think
I don't want to get in the carof this person.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I think this happens a lot with people that drink,
people that drink and drive andthe people that are getting in
the car with them.
I have seen this a lot.
I'm like I don't need to getinto the car with somebody that
was drinking.
I can drive I'm sober for themost part, um, or I can just
grab an Uber.
I don't need to be part of thatin any way, shape or form, and
(29:20):
I don't need to shame the personeither, like I'm not doing this
because you blah, blah, blah,blah.
Like none of that is necessary.
None of that is my business.
What's my business is my safety.
What's my business is mydecisions.
That's my business, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
What's my business is my decisions.
That's my business.
There's such a deep level ofpersonal responsibility in what
you're saying.
So how do you get there?
How does somebody get there?
How do they go from wanting topay someone's rent, control how
(29:56):
they drive, you know, not wantsomeone to be bitchy or
complainy or picking on them.
You know we're talking aboutmaybe these are people that you
love.
How do you go from that totaking personal responsibility
and not saving someone andletting them, allowing them,
(30:17):
allowing the natural course oflife to happen, where they learn
and you get to have boundaries?
How do you get there?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
One decision at a time, I think One interaction at
a time, and then being withyourself after, like doing some
form of the word that's comingup is recon.
But that's not it.
It's, uh, a review like areview.
Okay, I was with such and such.
That's a challengingrelationship or that's a
(30:48):
challenging friendship.
What happened?
Did I?
Did I in any way shape or formovershare?
Did I provide advice withoutconsent?
Okay, I provided advice withoutconsent, without even asking.
All right, that's not mine todo.
Next time I will ask forconsent, Okay.
Next thing oh, my goodness, Ijust gave this person money for
(31:10):
their rent.
I told myself I wasn't going todo that.
Okay, Note to self.
The next time I see this person,potentially they're going to
ask me for money for their rent.
What am I willing to do?
I say no to paying their rent.
I'm going to be strong.
Okay, no, Is that really true?
Well, no, probably I'm going towant to give them money.
All right, but am I going tolend it or am I going to give it
(31:32):
?
How much do I have to give?
Okay, Maybe the next time I seethem, when they ask me for rent
, I'm going to say I don't havemoney for rent.
But here's a hundred dollars.
Maybe I have a hundred dollars.
Do I have a hundred dollars?
Maybe I have $50.
Okay, great.
And after every interaction,doing a review and asking myself
where did I overgive?
(31:53):
Where did I overshare?
Where did I overgive?
Where did I overshare?
Where did I give unsolicitedadvice?
Where did I overreact and makesomeone's behavior bad?
How can I become okay withtheir behavior?
I have a different familymember who really dislikes when
(32:15):
people are drinking and thisperson gets really, really upset
by it.
But this person has their owntrauma around it, right, so it's
a trigger.
I don't have that much aroundit.
So whenever I'm around peoplethat are drinking, it's just
(32:37):
people are drinking.
So the reason why I'm givingthat as an example, it's if I
feel really activated bysomething when I'm in review.
My question is why was I soactivated by this?
How can I become more valueneutral?
Because ultimately, I want morepeace in my life and I'm not
looking to cut every singleperson out of my life.
Oh, this one asked me for rent,so I'm not talking to them
anymore.
Oh, this person drives crazynot talking to them anymore.
(32:57):
Oh, this person's always drunk.
Not talking to them anymore.
Oh, this person always needsadvice, not talking to them
anymore.
And then the next thing, youknow, I got nobody to talk to.
I'm in an island all by myself,right?
It's not that.
It's like how can I just letpeople be where they are?
Does that help with?
How do we get there?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, it's really gorgeous and I think it's really
not about cutting people out ofyour life.
It's about what do you need, orwhat do you need to communicate
in order to be with this person, and if that's what boundaries
are, that's literally whatboundaries are.
(33:38):
What do you need so you can bein this situation?
And it does require a lot ofhonesty with yourself, which
you're pointing to, a lot ofwillingness to try stuff out.
Like you said, one decision ata time is a really beautiful way
and noticing your behavior,taking some inventory at the end
(33:59):
of the day, not only whatadjustments do I need for next
time, aka what did I not say ordo that I wish that I had right.
We can always do that.
That's a big practice of minewhen did I overlook myself?
But also what did I do thatwent really well, what did I do
(34:21):
that I liked?
That is repeatable, that Icould do that again, because you
know that's really importanttoo, to find the things that we
did well, because we're buildingskills here.
What did I do well and how canI do this again?
I think this is really beautifuland I love what you're saying
about overgiving.
It's just, I think, a real painbody, in our culture and in
(34:44):
families, and with womenespecially, definitely with men
as well.
But we're constantly overgivingour resources.
But we're constantly overgivingour resources, whether it's our
time or energy, or our money,or, like you said, we're
overreacting and it is painful,it takes away from ourselves, it
takes away from our pocketbook,it takes away from our energy.
(35:06):
This is where desire comes in,I think.
The desire, maybe, to havehealthier relationships, that
desire to have more of what youwant in your life, the desire to
spend a day with your brotherand not get mad at him, whatever
, whatever that it is.
Um well, what do you need inorder to have that desire and
(35:26):
how can you follow thebreadcrumbs in order to get
there?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
out there.
Something just came to mind,something else that I definitely
did back then and I have to saythat sometimes when you're
thinking in hindsight, you don'tremember all the pieces and
parts.
I enrolled people so we are notour behavior and I started to
enroll people in the.
(35:55):
I started enrolling people inthe correction of the pattern
that I was in so for my friends,that I wanted to constantly
give them advice and tell themhow to do something.
I would ask for consent and ofcourse, I had consent.
They wanted me to do it, so Ithen I realized, oh, this
consent thing isn't working here, because I'm looking for a
(36:18):
different pattern.
I'm looking for them to be ableto stand on their own.
So I started to enroll and say,hey, we're in this pattern where
you will tell me a problem andthen I'll ask you if you consent
to me giving you advice ortelling you what I see.
Then I'll ask you if youconsent to me giving you advice
or telling you what I see, andthen you say yes, and then I
tell you I think we can dobetter.
(36:38):
I want to have you tell mewhatever you need to say and I
want to only listen and saythank you for your honesty.
I do not want to offer anything, because I really think that
it's time for you to get reallystrong in this area and I
believe you can.
And I keep taking away.
(37:02):
I feel emotional about this byhelping you.
Every time I help you, I'mtaking away your opportunity to
get better at this and I want tostop stealing that from you,
and I really need your help,like deep down.
I truly believe that you arecapable, but there is a place
(37:23):
inside of me that just is soheartbroken.
When I see you there, all Iwant to do is jump in and swim
for you.
I need your help so you canswim in the waters.
So I enrolled others.
(37:43):
That was something that I didand for different people.
It was different patterns and Ithankfully got tons of yeses of
people that were willing towork on this with me, and I was
able to really change many, manyrelationships and many
friendships in this way.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I think you just blew the lid off of what's possible
in a relationship that you cango to somebody that you love and
share.
Something like that.
That is an enormous amount ofemotional sobriety.
First of all, in order to getthere, you have to have noticed
(38:24):
yourself do this so many times,and that is a painful part of
the process is when you see thepattern but you haven't quite
changed it yet, and so you seeyourself going around the
hamster wheel again and again.
I think that's the most painfulpart of the growth process, and
it's also a necessary part, andwhat you're saying is you don't
(38:48):
have to do it alone.
You can say to someone hey,this is something I'm working on
here is why and I'd like yourhelp it's really beautiful.
Thank you for that, catherine,and I feel like we're at a peak,
and I just want to know ifthere is anything else that you
(39:11):
want to share here for ourlisteners on this topic.
I really feel your heart here.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I just want to say you know, I understand that
where I was where I reallythought that rescuing others
right was the way that I used tofeel like a superstar and I
felt so smart and justgenius-like.
I can't tell you how amazing itfeels now that I know people
(39:43):
know that are in my circle, thatI love them wherever they are.
That is such a beautiful thing.
They know I'm not trying tochange them in any way, shape or
form.
I may not like their behaviors,but that's okay, I know they're
not their behaviors and we justare.
And that sensation of seeingpeople as capable and loving
(40:10):
them where they are and seeingthat as just the right medicine
is so much better than jumpingin the water and swimming for
them.
I didn't think it would be, butit's.
There's a place inside of mewhere I could really feel a
generosity and the loveexpansion of like, yeah, I
(40:34):
understand you're cranky, I loveyou anyway.
Yes, I understand you're sad, Ilove you anyway.
Yes, I understand you're bitchy, I love you anyway.
Like, no matter what you're in,I'm value neutral about it.
Like I love you anyway.
And there will be times where Iget twisted because I get
activated, because I'm human,but this way of being and
walking through the world hasdefinitely provided me so much
(40:57):
more peace than the consistenturgency and chaos and anxiety
that I used to feel in the past,because it was like everybody's
problem was urgent, right,everybody's whatever was the
number one thing.
Everybody was a brain surgeonand everybody needed the scalpel
.
Now, that sort of thing, that'swhat I want to share.
(41:17):
Being able to just love peoplewhere they are and trust that
their soul has got them, thatGod has got them, that they are
a spark of God, that you willhelp in whatever way you can
without abandoning yourself, andyou can see them as fully
capable, is the gift of thehighest order, because it's not
(41:43):
readily accessible, and my wishis that everybody listening can
practice that.
And that's it for now.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm, catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Hello and welcome back.
Hello, family and listeners,friends, so happy to have you.
Without you, it would just beme and Brenda hanging out.
(01:35):
So thank you so much forlistening.
Today we have a juicy topic.
It is how can we let people bewhere they are, aren't you?
Speaker 2 (01:53):
psyched for this one, brenda.
Hey, brenda, so psyched.
I think this is a really trickyone for people, really tricky.
How do you let people be wherethey are?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Absolutely it's really tricky, because how do
you let people be where they are?
Absolutely it's really trickybecause, well, we're all
geniuses and we just know how tolive other people's lives so
well.
It's like my way is so muchbetter than the way this peon is
thinking of doing their thing.
I can see the train wreckcoming.
Maybe they're about to losetheir spouse or spend all their
(02:26):
money, or they need to stopgambling, or they need to stop
drinking, or they need to wakeup on time, or I want them to
take cold plunges or whatever.
Insert said thing, I think.
Or maybe they're depressed andI'm like you don't have anything
to be depressed about.
Get happy and joyful, god darnit.
But it's a trip right.
(02:49):
Allowing people to just be wherethey are and have that be okay,
is such a portal.
It's like a portal of growth.
One of the things that madethat possible for me was to
remember that all humans are aspark of God and they are a
(03:09):
divine soul and their soul knowsbetter than me.
Their human may need my help,their human may have a question,
and I can communicate with thathuman and interact with that
human, but always trusting that,with or without me, they're
(03:33):
going to make it.
I don't have to be in theirlife for them not to make it.
I trust that God has got theirback.
I don't have to be the laststop on their train station.
God has them eternally and thatit is not my responsibility
(03:53):
either to be their last stop.
I will do what I can and whatis within my range, but I cannot
then abandon myself, like nottake care of myself, maybe not
eat, sleep or take care of myown responsibilities, because I
feel that, uh-oh, this personand their train wreck whatever
their train wreck is is moreimportant than what's happening
(04:17):
in my life, because maybe mylife doesn't have a lot of chaos
and I think I get all thisanxious sensations in my body.
This person has tons of chaosand I have to fix it.
No, I get all this anxioussensations in my body.
This person has tons of chaosand I have to fix it.
No, I don't.
This person can perfectly be intheir chaos.
I do not have to take them outof it.
It is such a gift to allowpeople to be where they are in
(04:38):
their own process, withoutfeeling sorry for them.
Allow them to be in theirprocess by seeing them as fully
capable.
And then I have heard thisquestion.
So what does helping look like,right?
Helping in this case would beoh, I see this train wreck
coming such and such, or wouldyou like my help in some way?
(05:00):
Did you want a reflection?
Would you like to be heard orseen in anything?
And if the person says no, thenit's a no, there's no consent,
and the best thing I can do forthem is not give them advice.
The best thing I can do forthem in that moment is love them
(05:23):
where they are.
Maybe I see them as imperfector maybe I have my own judgments
about where they are andrecognize these are my judgments
.
I get to still love them intheir mess.
I get to still love them intheir chaos, and my job is to
not take their chaos on.
All right, boom end sermon.
(05:46):
What comes up for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Wow, okay, first of all, you're saying, oh, it's
just a gift to let people bewhere they are.
I would love for you to saymore about that, because people
are listening and they're like Idon't see how this could be a
gift.
If somebody that I love is inpain or struggling or grieving
or about to fall off aproverbial cliff, you're saying
(06:15):
I should leave them alonebecause that's the gift.
Yeah, please say more aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
That is definitely a gift, because that person is
about to learn how to fall offthe cliff.
That person is about to learnhow to fall on their face and
stand up again.
That person is about totraverse a portal and what I
(06:43):
perceive as helping air quotesthem or saving air quotes them
is actually harmful.
The only way that in that timeit's helpful is if they ask me
for help and I have to be surethat I'm not taking the job on,
(07:05):
because anytime that I take thejob on for another person, I
know that we are just kickingtheir can down the road.
That lesson is coming up forthem for a reason.
So I'm going to use something.
Really.
Let's say somebody can't paytheir rent.
They come to me, they can't paytheir rent, and we're in
October.
(07:26):
They can't pay their rent.
We're in November.
They can't pay their rent.
We're in December.
They can't pay their rent.
So at what point does thisperson learn to pay their rent?
If I'm constantly paying theirrent, right it's why would they
have to learn?
But if October comes, and let'ssay if I was and this is all
(07:46):
monetary right, so if I paysomeone's rent, I'm in a
financial position that it woulddefinitely set me back right.
I don't have so much of it togive, so I would be abandoning
some of myself and some of myown safety and security in order
to help somebody else.
That in itself doesn't feelright.
In order to help somebody else?
(08:07):
That in itself doesn't feelright.
But if this person can learnhow to pay their rent, well, we
are now going into November tobetter humans.
I still have my safety andsecurity, and they are feeling
even more safe and more securein their ability to pay for
their own bills.
Right, just as an example?
Yes, does that make it clear,or should?
Speaker 2 (08:29):
I give a different metaphor.
No, I think that's really clear, but if you have a different
one, give that one too, becauseI think that this is a really
hard one for people.
So, yeah, go for it.
I'm thinking of on the street.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
I want to think about tithing, or I want to think
about, like giving to homelesspeople that are potentially high
and drinking or using heroin orsomething like that.
And some people are the schoolof thought of like, oh, I give
them because God is in allplaces and I give the tithe
because I don't know, you know,maybe that was God.
There's this whole like maybethat was God.
(09:07):
God put this person in front ofme and there's a very I hear
this a lot in like religiouscircles.
And then there are people thatare like, no, I'm not giving
them anything because they'rejust going to go get high and
you know, et cetera.
And what if the dose I gavethem killed them?
And either way, it doesn't feelgood to me.
(09:29):
For me, the bottom line is do Ihave to give it or not?
And that's how I vote.
If I have to give it, I'll giveit, and if I give it to the
homeless heroin backslashalcoholic once I give it, like
it's out of my hands what thatperson does or doesn't do is not
(09:49):
of my business, none of mybusiness, because my only job
was to decide if I was giving ornot giving.
I don't have to worry aboutwhether it's their last dose, if
they OD'd or didn't OD, and Idon't have to worry about
whether or not God was there,and purgatory for me is around
the corner.
It's really looking at just whatam I responsible for and what's
(10:14):
on my side of the street, and Ican say that I'm a huge
recoverer in this.
And there is a place where,when we rescue people, we take
them, we save them from thetrain wreck that we really don't
see them as capable, and whereI'm jumping in and I'm like no,
(10:39):
no, no, here, take this, let mepay your rent, because I'm like
well, this X, y or Z is nevergoing to be able to pay their
rent, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah.
I potentially have like athought process around that.
That's none of my business.
I can either help or not help.
But the other thing it does isthat it makes us feel amazing
(11:02):
because we can just be theperson that goes in and swoop
here it is, fixes, all thethings.
We're amazing and now we haveeverybody's responsibility on
our plates and it's reallystressful.
I mean, let's be honest, rightnow, what I have in my own life,
on my own plate, is enough,like I don't need to take on
(11:24):
other people's things, and I amaware now that by taking it on,
I am seeing them as uncapable,which is very unkind, and I
would say here the thing that'scoming to mind right now is like
I always want to teach a man tofish, versus give him a fish.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
Yeah, that's beautiful, and I love what
you're saying here, that if weare saving people from the
experience that they're havingthat they created, that we're
seeing them as incapable and howunkind that is.
It kind of breaks my heart,right.
(12:10):
And we people do this all thetime.
People are generally walkingaround saving each other all the
time, and you're also sayingthat we get to feel amazing
about it.
We get to feel really amazingabout ourselves that we helped
somebody, and we're not sayingdon't help people.
(12:33):
Maybe there's times that youhelp people, right, we're not
suggesting that, but you'retalking about something way
deeper than just helping someone.
You're talking about, like,saving someone from the problem
that they created, as opposed tobeing there for them and maybe
witnessing them or guiding themthrough it in some way.
(12:55):
And what also comes up for mearound this is this is a great
way to avoid our own life.
Our own life she's rolling hereyes.
This is a great way for us toavoid our own life by helping
others.
And when you talk aboutabandoning yourself to help
(13:16):
others, it's kind of a silentone that we don't necessarily
see, because we're taking all ofour attention and potential
resources and giving it tosomebody else.
So what would you say?
How do you help someone?
You gave a few examples beforeyou said asking them do you want
a reflection?
Do you want to be heard or seen?
Can you say more about that?
(13:37):
Because if you're not going togive someone the money for their
rent, what can you do?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Oh, I love that question, yeah, okay.
So let's say then, my questionswould be is this a place you
can really afford?
Are you living somewhere whereyou really can't afford it?
Do we have to make otherchanges?
Do you have to make otherchanges?
I use the word we here, butit's really this person.
Does this person need to changethe way that they're living?
(14:04):
Does something have to change?
Does this person potentiallyneed a different income stream,
a different job?
Does this person where is thisperson spending their money?
Are they over budgeted?
Did something happen?
Has there been a catastropheLike it would be?
Oh, I understand that you're inthis predicament.
Did you want me to help youfigure out how you got here?
(14:25):
Do you foresee yourself beingable to get out?
Like, how can I actually helpyou?
Right, because this is a biggerproblem than just this month if
we're not looking at all theseother pieces and parts right.
The thing that I had thoughtabout right now is when you're
helping children with theirhomework and they're like just
(14:48):
give me the answer.
And it's like well, no, it'syour homework.
Like you need to be able topass the test right?
So often we want to help peopleand we want to point them to
the answer, sometimes even givethem the answer if it's helpful.
The question I'm always askingmyself is am I really helping?
(15:09):
And listen, don't get me wrong,I'm not a Mother Teresa type.
So there are plenty of peoplethat are in my circle that if
they ask me for things, Ipotentially would potentially
abandon myself and drop somethings along the way.
I'm not saying I'm perfect, butI'm not in delusion about it.
I'm aware, oh, I'm about to dothis and I'm totally abandoning
(15:32):
myself here because of X, y or Z.
I'm not like, oh, I'm doingthis because I mean, who else is
going to do it?
I hear that a lot.
Right, like, well, if I don'thelp, who's going to help them?
Or I had to do it because ofblah, blah, blah blah.
And I'm like, no, no, no, Iknow I don't have to do this.
I'm choosing to do this and indoing so, I recognize that I'm
(15:57):
seeing this person as incapable.
In doing this, I recognize thatI'm taking away their learning
lesson.
In doing this, I am justcontributing to pushing the can
or kicking the can down the road.
I am fully aware, and sometimesI still do it, but it's very
different to be in that energythan the energy that I used to
live by, and I do it a lot less.
I mean it's a lot less often.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Yeah, thank you for your honesty about that, because
we're not perfect.
Over here we're discussing thisand chewing on it and this is a
practice.
It's like a deep commitment toyourself, right To take care of
yourself and be present forother people that you love,
without saving them from theirown problems, because then we're
not really helping them.
So I really appreciate yourhonesty and same over here.
(16:39):
This is something that I workon all the time, especially
being a mother not so much anissue now, but you know, when my
kids were growing up, you know,with the homework or projects,
like it's just a really bigthing.
Mother is wanting to save theirchildren so they don't have to
have it hard, they don't have tohurt.
Well, hurting or falling orfailing is really how we grow.
(17:03):
So for our listeners, it's okay, you know.
It's okay If you are doing this.
It's okay If you paidsomebody's rent, it's okay If
you did your kid's homework.
But it's a good question to askyourself why, right and what?
What don't you want to be withby doing this action?
(17:24):
What are you avoiding inyourself?
What don't you want to feel orexperience?
That you're kind of controllingit?
Would you say that this iscontrol by?
Speaker 1 (17:39):
fixing someone's problems.
We fix someone's problems.
We don't want to see them indiscomfort.
We don't want to experiencewhat it feels like to see them
in discomfort.
We also jump in to keep someonefrom behaving in a particular
way.
It is controlling, and we dothat because we don't like when
they do something so like anal-anonic who is trying to hide
(18:03):
all the alcohol from thealcoholic.
It's because, well, you don'tlike when the alcoholic is
drinking, right, I don't want togo too far down that one.
That was the example that camein my head.
But I'll think of somethingelse.
Let's say a wife who doesn'tlike the way her husband
responded to her and now she'sso annoyed that he's well,
(18:27):
insert, he's so, insert word,whatever word you want to use.
He's such a whatever, pick yourown word and is now pissed off
that he's this way and that's achoice.
I mean, we get to be angry inthe beginning, but if generally
he's that way, he's just thatway and so it's, if it's kind of
(18:50):
predictable, then why are wegetting twisted about stuff like
that?
Why are we trying to keeppeople from behaving like oh,
now I have a good idea, a goodexample You're with your partner
and I'm just using men.
I'm so sorry, sorry, men, butthese are the examples that are
coming to my head.
You're with your partner in thecar and he experiences road
(19:11):
rage and it's like, oh mygoodness, is he really trying to
kill the car in front of usagain?
Why is he doing this?
And it's like, well, clearly hehas unexpressed rage, like
that's what's happening.
Do I tell him hey, honey, youknow what Is this really about
the car in the front?
Really, what I think ishappening is that you have
(19:34):
unexpressed rage, babe.
And so what I think we shoulddo is we should go home and
figure or like, whatever I comeup with a solution.
No, no, no, that is not my lane.
Like, if he pulls out a gun,then maybe that becomes my lane,
but short of some kind ofmurder, it's not really my lane.
(19:54):
We're all kind of safe and Ijust am uncomfortable because
this person is experiencing rage.
And now I'm in their vicinityand I'm like, oh my God, this is
so uncomfortable, I want thisto stop.
That's not the point ofstopping that right, like the
point to stop that would havebeen when we were in the dating
phase, when I first saw his rage, when I first witnessed it.
(20:15):
That would have been the timeto exit or to address it, not
you know X amount of years laterin the car, as he's having a
rage moment on the street.
That's an example that's comingto mind for me where we are
wanting to change thecircumstances because I can't
just be with where he's at.
(20:36):
I have a sibling who drives kindof loony sometimes and he just
thinks it's fun.
So one time he's like drivingand there's a snowstorm and the
car swerving and it's doing a360, et cetera.
And he looks at me.
He's like you're really notscared.
And I'm like well, the worstthing that could happen is that
we die.
And he just giggled.
(20:58):
I was like I am not going toget myself revved up, like this
is you're having a good time.
Okay, like it's not my cup oftea, but there was nothing to do
there, I just was.
And then all of a sudden hestarted driving like a normal
human, like he really wanted tosee me scared for whatever
(21:22):
reason.
His kick, right.
I'm using this as an example.
Is that a good example of likewhere I'm not?
But let's say oh.
Let's say I have a wound.
Let's say I've been inaccidents before, right, let's
say I've had tons and tons ofcar accidents.
Like what are the chances thatI can hold myself and regulate
myself as this is happening?
He's driving like a lunatic,probably a slim to zero, right.
(21:43):
But I trust him.
I'm like I don't think he wantsto like kill me and himself.
Like I think he's just having agood time over here.
Whatever, I trust that we'regonna be okay this is great.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
so you're saying that if we have a wound there
ourselves, that it's going to beharder to be present with
somebody else and to stay steadyand have a grounded nervous
system?
Where, if we don't have a wound,it's going to be like fine,
okay, great, drive like a maniac.
Because most people listening Ithink most people listening.
(22:19):
I would love to hear, please,let us know.
If somebody's driving like amaniac, most people do tense up,
most people become backseatdrivers, most people are telling
the driver how to drive.
So what would you say to thosepeople?
This is a great example becauseI think everyone can relate.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
I would say, hopefully that's not the person
that drives all the time, like,hopefully you're, you don't have
to have that kind of vigilanceup all the time.
This is something that happened, but it's not always or all the
time, and the fact that itwasn't that much fun for my
brother that one time it hasn'treally happened Right, cause I'm
(23:03):
not like fun to make fun of orI'm not fun to freak out in that
way Cause it wasn't joyful forhim.
And so my question would belike how can you have safety in
that environment?
Like what is needed andwhatever is needed, try to gain
it after the fact, becauseyou're not going to be able to
(23:25):
talk to or be a backstreetdriver in that moment, like
you're probably going to clenchthe door handle right or maybe
the bottom of the seat, becauseyou're activated, like your
nervous system is activated andyou're wanting to say something,
do something, jump in, changethe circumstances, and the
(23:47):
person who's behavingerratically is also activated,
and so activated and activatedusually not the best combination
.
So you want to get to the placewhere you're regulated and you
get to say when I see you, whenyou drive like that, when I'm in
the car, I get scared.
And then the person is going tosay, well, I can't believe, you
(24:10):
, don't trust that I'm a gooddriver or that you think I'm
going to hurt you or whateverthe things are for this person,
and you get to say I get it.
It may not be rational, you mayfeel like you completely have
it.
I just want you to know that,as a passenger, it doesn't feel
good to me.
So you get to state where youare I love that.
(24:31):
It's going to be really hard tolove them where they are when
you currently feel like they'retrying to kill you.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Right hard to love them where they are, when you
currently feel like they'retrying to kill you, right?
Well, I think there's thisspecial sauce that you're saying
in here is the approval youknow you're saying well, the
worst that happens is that weboth die in a car accident.
That is the worst, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
And that's pretty bad .
Most people would not be inapproval of that.
Well, I mean, I guess the worstthing that could happen is that
you know I'm paralyzed.
I guess that would be worse.
Let them alive and paralyzed.
That would really suck a lot.
But I still don't have anycontrol over it.
No, like, not really.
I may think that's the thing.
The mind thinks you havecontrol over it, but if this
person has lost it or they'reteasing you, they're just effing
(25:20):
around to find out.
Right, yeah, how much controldo I really have over this whole
other human being, other thantelling them it wasn't okay?
I got really scared.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, it wasn't okay.
I got really scared.
Yeah, I think there's aneutrality in your voice when
you're talking about this thatmost people sitting in the
passenger seat probably don'thave.
Mostly people in the passengerseat become or agitated, they're
judgmental, they are blamey,right, and you get really pretty
(25:59):
nasty being a backseat driver.
And if you're scared, there's areason you're being scared and
your, you know your emotions arecoming out in that way.
But what I'm hearing you saying, which is the special sauce, is
this neutrality and also a deepsense of personal
responsibility.
You're not telling him to stopdriving like a crazy maniac.
(26:22):
You're saying I feel reallyscared when you drive this way
and that's very different, yeah,and I think that's the special
sauce of what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Yeah, I'm not letting him know that I think he's a
lunatic or that there'ssomething very wrong in the
brain.
Well, it's not letting him knowthat I think he's a lunatic or
that there's something verywrong in the brain.
Well, it's not helpful.
No, it's not.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
It would just activate him.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Right, it turns into name calling versus how can I
live and let live, which isreally what we're talking about,
right, exactly.
How can I live and let live?
Okay, I want to live and I wantto be less activated.
I want my nervous system to berelaxed to a certain extent and
(27:04):
I'm only going to have so muchaccess to the places in which I
can control that, and I enjoyliving my life, so I'm not going
to be sheltered in a bubble, soI'm going to take a certain
amount of risk.
Right, like when I'm going totake a certain amount of risk
right, like when I'm walkingdown the street I can get hit by
somebody I don't even know whomade the wrong turn and I never
(27:26):
got a chance to talk to thatperson.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Maybe somebody was in the passenger seat of that car
saying slow down, buddypassenger seat of that car
saying slow down, buddy, maybeRight?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
My point is we can become so fixated on all the
pieces that we think we cancontrol, but the truth is we
really can't control it.
Now, if I would have said thatto my brother and then every
time we got into the cartogether he behaved that way,
then my responsibility would beto not get into the car with my
brother anymore and just be likeI love that you're willing to
(28:02):
drive, but whenever you drive, Ireally have a lot of agita,
like I can't take it and I'm notasking you to drive differently
, like I will find a differentway to get there.
Right, that's my responsibilityand I'm not requesting for this
person to change in any way,shape or form.
They get to walk through theirlife and live their life how
they want to live it, and I getto walk through my life and live
(28:23):
my life the way I want to liveit.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, that's really genius.
So if you don't like what'shappening, then you can try to
communicate it, yeah Right.
And then you also get to have aboundary.
You get to decide for yourselfwhat you want to engage in and
what you don't.
And I think this is a reallyhard piece for people as well To
(28:45):
know that you actually have achoice.
You could decide I don't wantto get in the car with this
person or I don't want to.
You know, this could beanything.
It could be.
I don't want to spend the daywith this person because I think
I don't want to get in the carof this person.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I think this happens a lot with people that drink,
people that drink and drive andthe people that are getting in
the car with them.
I have seen this a lot.
I'm like I don't need to getinto the car with somebody that
was drinking.
I can drive I'm sober for themost part, um, or I can just
grab an Uber.
I don't need to be part of thatin any way, shape or form, and
(29:20):
I don't need to shame the personeither, like I'm not doing this
because you blah, blah, blah,blah.
Like none of that is necessary.
None of that is my business.
What's my business is my safety.
What's my business is mydecisions.
That's my business, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
What's my business is my decisions.
That's my business.
There's such a deep level ofpersonal responsibility in what
you're saying.
So how do you get there?
How does somebody get there?
How do they go from wanting topay someone's rent, control how
(29:56):
they drive, you know, not wantsomeone to be bitchy or
complainy or picking on them.
You know we're talking aboutmaybe these are people that you
love.
How do you go from that totaking personal responsibility
and not saving someone andletting them, allowing them,
(30:17):
allowing the natural course oflife to happen, where they learn
and you get to have boundaries?
How do you get there?
Speaker 1 (30:25):
One decision at a time, I think One interaction at
a time, and then being withyourself after, like doing some
form of the word that's comingup is recon.
But that's not it.
It's, uh, a review like areview.
Okay, I was with such and such.
That's a challengingrelationship or that's a
(30:48):
challenging friendship.
What happened?
Did I?
Did I in any way shape or formovershare?
Did I provide advice withoutconsent?
Okay, I provided advice withoutconsent, without even asking.
All right, that's not mine todo.
Next time I will ask forconsent, Okay.
Next thing oh, my goodness, Ijust gave this person money for
(31:10):
their rent.
I told myself I wasn't going todo that.
Okay, Note to self.
The next time I see this person,potentially they're going to
ask me for money for their rent.
What am I willing to do?
I say no to paying their rent.
I'm going to be strong.
Okay, no, Is that really true?
Well, no, probably I'm going towant to give them money.
All right, but am I going tolend it or am I going to give it
(31:32):
?
How much do I have to give?
Okay, Maybe the next time I seethem, when they ask me for rent
, I'm going to say I don't havemoney for rent.
But here's a hundred dollars.
Maybe I have a hundred dollars.
Do I have a hundred dollars?
Maybe I have $50.
Okay, great.
And after every interaction,doing a review and asking myself
where did I overgive?
(31:53):
Where did I overshare?
Where did I overgive?
Where did I overshare?
Where did I give unsolicitedadvice?
Where did I overreact and makesomeone's behavior bad?
How can I become okay withtheir behavior?
I have a different familymember who really dislikes when
(32:15):
people are drinking and thisperson gets really, really upset
by it.
But this person has their owntrauma around it, right, so it's
a trigger.
I don't have that much aroundit.
So whenever I'm around peoplethat are drinking, it's just
(32:37):
people are drinking.
So the reason why I'm givingthat as an example, it's if I
feel really activated bysomething when I'm in review.
My question is why was I soactivated by this?
How can I become more valueneutral?
Because ultimately, I want morepeace in my life and I'm not
looking to cut every singleperson out of my life.
Oh, this one asked me for rent,so I'm not talking to them
anymore.
Oh, this person drives crazynot talking to them anymore.
(32:57):
Oh, this person's always drunk.
Not talking to them anymore.
Oh, this person always needsadvice, not talking to them
anymore.
And then the next thing, youknow, I got nobody to talk to.
I'm in an island all by myself,right?
It's not that.
It's like how can I just letpeople be where they are?
Does that help with?
How do we get there?
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, it's really gorgeous and I think it's really
not about cutting people out ofyour life.
It's about what do you need, orwhat do you need to communicate
in order to be with this person, and if that's what boundaries
are, that's literally whatboundaries are.
(33:38):
What do you need so you can bein this situation?
And it does require a lot ofhonesty with yourself, which
you're pointing to, a lot ofwillingness to try stuff out.
Like you said, one decision ata time is a really beautiful way
and noticing your behavior,taking some inventory at the end
(33:59):
of the day, not only whatadjustments do I need for next
time, aka what did I not say ordo that I wish that I had right.
We can always do that.
That's a big practice of minewhen did I overlook myself?
But also what did I do thatwent really well, what did I do
(34:21):
that I liked?
That is repeatable, that Icould do that again, because you
know that's really importanttoo, to find the things that we
did well, because we're buildingskills here.
What did I do well and how canI do this again?
I think this is really beautifuland I love what you're saying
about overgiving.
It's just, I think, a real painbody, in our culture and in
(34:44):
families, and with womenespecially, definitely with men
as well.
But we're constantly overgivingour resources.
But we're constantly overgivingour resources, whether it's our
time or energy, or our money,or, like you said, we're
overreacting and it is painful,it takes away from ourselves, it
takes away from our pocketbook,it takes away from our energy.
(35:06):
This is where desire comes in,I think.
The desire, maybe, to havehealthier relationships, that
desire to have more of what youwant in your life, the desire to
spend a day with your brotherand not get mad at him, whatever
, whatever that it is.
Um well, what do you need inorder to have that desire and
(35:26):
how can you follow thebreadcrumbs in order to get
there?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
out there.
Something just came to mind,something else that I definitely
did back then and I have to saythat sometimes when you're
thinking in hindsight, you don'tremember all the pieces and
parts.
I enrolled people so we are notour behavior and I started to
enroll people in the.
(35:55):
I started enrolling people inthe correction of the pattern
that I was in so for my friends,that I wanted to constantly
give them advice and tell themhow to do something.
I would ask for consent and ofcourse, I had consent.
They wanted me to do it, so Ithen I realized, oh, this
consent thing isn't working here, because I'm looking for a
(36:18):
different pattern.
I'm looking for them to be ableto stand on their own.
So I started to enroll and say,hey, we're in this pattern where
you will tell me a problem andthen I'll ask you if you consent
to me giving you advice ortelling you what I see.
Then I'll ask you if youconsent to me giving you advice
or telling you what I see, andthen you say yes, and then I
tell you I think we can dobetter.
(36:38):
I want to have you tell mewhatever you need to say and I
want to only listen and saythank you for your honesty.
I do not want to offer anything, because I really think that
it's time for you to get reallystrong in this area and I
believe you can.
And I keep taking away.
(37:02):
I feel emotional about this byhelping you.
Every time I help you, I'mtaking away your opportunity to
get better at this and I want tostop stealing that from you,
and I really need your help,like deep down.
I truly believe that you arecapable, but there is a place
(37:23):
inside of me that just is soheartbroken.
When I see you there, all Iwant to do is jump in and swim
for you.
I need your help so you canswim in the waters.
So I enrolled others.
(37:43):
That was something that I didand for different people.
It was different patterns and Ithankfully got tons of yeses of
people that were willing towork on this with me, and I was
able to really change many, manyrelationships and many
friendships in this way.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
I think you just blew the lid off of what's possible
in a relationship that you cango to somebody that you love and
share.
Something like that.
That is an enormous amount ofemotional sobriety.
First of all, in order to getthere, you have to have noticed
(38:24):
yourself do this so many times,and that is a painful part of
the process is when you see thepattern but you haven't quite
changed it yet, and so you seeyourself going around the
hamster wheel again and again.
I think that's the most painfulpart of the growth process, and
it's also a necessary part, andwhat you're saying is you don't
(38:48):
have to do it alone.
You can say to someone hey,this is something I'm working on
here is why and I'd like yourhelp it's really beautiful.
Thank you for that, catherine,and I feel like we're at a peak,
and I just want to know ifthere is anything else that you
(39:11):
want to share here for ourlisteners on this topic.
I really feel your heart here.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I just want to say you know, I understand that
where I was where I reallythought that rescuing others
right was the way that I used tofeel like a superstar and I
felt so smart and justgenius-like.
I can't tell you how amazing itfeels now that I know people
(39:43):
know that are in my circle, thatI love them wherever they are.
That is such a beautiful thing.
They know I'm not trying tochange them in any way, shape or
form.
I may not like their behaviors,but that's okay, I know they're
not their behaviors and we justare.
And that sensation of seeingpeople as capable and loving
(40:10):
them where they are and seeingthat as just the right medicine
is so much better than jumpingin the water and swimming for
them.
I didn't think it would be, butit's.
There's a place inside of mewhere I could really feel a
generosity and the loveexpansion of like, yeah, I
(40:34):
understand you're cranky, I loveyou anyway.
Yes, I understand you're sad, Ilove you anyway.
Yes, I understand you're bitchy, I love you anyway.
Like, no matter what you're in,I'm value neutral about it.
Like I love you anyway.
And there will be times where Iget twisted because I get
activated, because I'm human,but this way of being and
walking through the world hasdefinitely provided me so much
(40:57):
more peace than the consistenturgency and chaos and anxiety
that I used to feel in the past,because it was like everybody's
problem was urgent, right,everybody's whatever was the
number one thing.
Everybody was a brain surgeonand everybody needed the scalpel
.
Now, that sort of thing, that'swhat I want to share.
(41:17):
Being able to just love peoplewhere they are and trust that
their soul has got them, thatGod has got them, that they are
a spark of God, that you willhelp in whatever way you can
without abandoning yourself, andyou can see them as fully
capable, is the gift of thehighest order, because it's not
(41:43):
readily accessible, and my wishis that everybody listening can
practice that.
And that's it for now.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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