May 21, 2025 • 24 mins
When we’re young, freedom feels like staying up late, eating candy for dinner, and having no one tell us what to do. But as we grow up, that surface-level idea of freedom gets challenged. True freedom, is not about indulging in everything, it’s about having genuine choice and the ability to act from our values, not our wounds.
Brenda and Catherine explore their personal paths to authentic freedom. Brenda opens up about breaking free from perfectionism and people-pleasing, where retail therapy once offered short-lived comfort but not true satisfaction. Catherine shares how her struggle with overthinking and mental pro/con lists left her exhausted and paralyzed. Her early attempts at liberation looked like apathy and rebellion, but they didn’t bring peace.
Together, they uncover the uncomfortable (yet essential) "messy middle" - the part of the journey where we swing between extremes before finding alignment. They also explore how modern freedom includes digital boundaries, discerning true desire from disguised compulsion, and redefining success on our own terms.
If you’ve ever felt trapped by your habits, your phone, your finances, or your own expectations, this episode offers insight and permission to begin again.
Highlights from the Episode:
- Freedom requires taking responsibility for our choices—not escaping them
- The path often swings from constraint to rebellion before balance emerges
- Catherine's journey led from anxious overthinking to clarity and peace
- Brenda’s evolution moved from perfectionism to empowered decision-making
- True freedom means responding from our values rather than our conditioning
- Mindful spending is more liberating than impulsive consumption
- Digital boundaries are essential—choosing when and how to engage
- Saying both yes and no with equal ease is a sign of inner freedom
- Compulsions can masquerade as "freedom" but actually keep us stuck
- The “messy middle” is where transformation and self-trust are forged
✨ Where in your life are you craving more freedom?
✨ What have you already freed yourself from?
If any part of this episode resonated, let us know, write a review, and share this episode with someone you love.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, friends.
(01:33):
Recently I was in aconversation talking about
freedom, and when we think aboutfreedom in the context of
personal growth or when I thinkabout it, it's definitely
different than when I was a kid.
I think being a kid, freedomfeels like turning 18, being out
of the house, being able to goto sleep when you want, wake up
when you want All these freedomsbecause somebody else is
(01:54):
deciding for you, right?
It's like all these placeswhere we want to be responsible,
or not necessarily.
We want to be responsible.
I think it's more.
We don't want to have to listento someone, but then 18, 19
comes and we don't necessarilywant to be responsible for that
either.
We just don't want to be ledand ruled by another.
(02:15):
But it's really not about justdoing whatever you want, because
that doesn't really exist.
There are consequences to ouractions and our inaction.
It's really not about justdoing whatever you want, because
that doesn't really exist.
There are consequences to ouractions and our inactions.
We definitely feel or have amore functioning life when we
(02:36):
are responsible for ourselves.
And so Brenda and I thenstarted talking about it.
She's here, looking lovely asalways.
She's here looking lovely asalways.
When I feel into freedom formyself, I feel so grateful for
the level of freedom that I have.
And when I entered intopersonal growth whether it was
(03:02):
energy work, meditation, tai Chi, qigong and then therapy after
that I think the biggest thingsI wanted was to stop
overthinking, to stop feeling soanxious about things.
I used to worry about what isthe best decision, left, right.
I mean, I used to make myselfinsane thinking about all the
(03:24):
worst case scenarios and how Iwould deal with those.
I'd go with a huge pro-con listall the time in my mind, and
that definitely did not feellike freedom.
I think what I would have wantedat the time was maybe a magic
wand or to just wake up and notcare.
I think the first step for mein that arena of freedom was
just not caring.
(03:45):
The efforts like the big oldfuck.
It's like fuck this person,fuck this, fuck that fuck like
it.
It was just like a lot of repel.
I just don't care.
That was my first step.
I don't think I ever in mywildest dreams would know what
(04:06):
it feels like now, 30 plus yearsinto it.
What is it like for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I love all of this that you're sharing.
You made me think that what isit that I wanted to have in my
life and I definitely wanted tostop beating myself up in my
life.
And I definitely wanted to stopbeating myself up.
I wanted to stop secondguessing myself.
I wanted to be able to make adecision, a choice for my life
(04:38):
and feel really good about itand trust myself.
And I wanted I wanted to beable to follow desire, which led
me on an entire path offollowing desire, making quite a
mess, because, when I look back, a lot of it was from a place
(05:01):
of starvation anddeprivationvation, from being
bound up for so long living thelife that I lived, focusing more
on Getting it right and beingperfect, partly so I don't have
to beat myself up.
If I'm perfect, then I'm safeand I don't have to beat myself
(05:22):
up and go into that crazy,horrible head spin.
And it was like I kind of likethe Roman Colosseum when the
lions are kept in cages forweeks before a big event in
ancient Rome where they would gofight the gladiators or another
animal.
(05:43):
They put the animals in cages sothat they get like ferocious
and really hungry.
I was not saying I wasferocious, but I was very.
I was ferociously hungry, let'ssay that, and it led to what I
thought was a lot of freedom,was actually a lot of rebellion
and acting out of starvation anddeprivation, which sent me on a
(06:04):
whole journey, and I had to gothrough that.
I had to go through that partof my journey, which was
wonderful and exciting andadventurous, and it was a lot of
desire, but it led me down aroad of crashing eventually,
where then I had to really learnwhat real freedom was.
(06:25):
But those are the things thatcame to mind when you asked what
is it that I originally wanted?
And, basically, how do youtrust yourself, how do you live
a life, how do you be who youtruly are, live a life that you
love and trust yourself alongthe way?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I love how you talk about, you know, the rebellious
piece, because there is apendulum swing from where we are
to where we weren't before.
We can sort of swing back tocenter.
There's almost like complete180 away from where we are.
I think, coming my startingplace of rescuer, of like where
(07:13):
can I help or where am I neededto?
Then really being indiscernment and the buckets I
thought that was the nextlocation.
But being there for really long, being the kind of person
that's like you know what, thisperson doesn't deserve that, or
this person didn't earn this, orwhy am I doing this for this
(07:33):
person that sort of thoughtprocess, that sort of thinking,
that pattern of thinking led meto a place where I was really
closed off and I was not heartopen anymore because I had shut
down so many or put up so manywalls, shut down, closed so many
doors, and then it was tons ofwork to open it again.
(07:55):
Like how can I be soft, open,loving and have discernment and
find my choice?
So there are messy parts for us.
We have a starting point, wehave a place we want to go,
where we think freedom lives,and usually before we get to
(08:18):
where freedom lives, we're inthis discomfort, but the
discomfort is part of the work.
It's us in it.
We are, with the friction, sortof polishing our own stone.
We think about freedom.
It's not really about doingwhatever you want, it's about
having choice.
Brenda so gorgeously stated shereally wanted to live with more
(08:43):
desire.
I wanted to definitely livewith more peace.
Freedom is the ability for usto respond to life based on our
reality instead of our wounds,to respond to life from a place
of our values instead of ourconditioning.
(09:04):
So, for example, I was verymuch, or have been, a person of
acts of service or very generousand gift giving.
So if I'm someone who's livingfor my values, I started to
learn how to, instead of buyingeverybody something for
Christmas that I know becausethat's what you air quotes to
you.
That was part of myconditioning Starting to ask
(09:27):
myself who do I actually want tobuy something for.
That changed my whole Christmasshopping habits.
I changed from getting adultthings to only children.
It helped my pocket.
I wasn't spending two plus K aChristmas season.
I was getting to really honormy values, which is I love to
(09:48):
see children thriving.
We're just excited.
I think that's a time in ourlife where we get to be kids,
like that's the time where wehave that false sense of freedom
and I want to definitelycontribute to that false sense
of freedom and just having agreat time versus the wounded
(10:11):
part or the conditioned part ofthis is what I have to do,
because this is how we do it,this is how we do it in our
family, or this is how we do itin our friend group.
This is how we do it.
Or I don't buy name brandthings because, well, I don't
think that I'm in the financialbracket to do that.
(10:32):
I don't think I've ever reallybeen there.
It doesn't make sense to me.
And there was a time where Iwould say but I could
technically air quotes affordthe Chanel bag, or I could air
quotes afford Louis Vuitton bag,or I could air quotes afford
the Louis Vuitton bag.
But now, when I live in myvalues, it's like where would I
(10:57):
wear that diamond necklace?
Like I'm not at galas.
I don't go to black tie events.
What am I doing with this stuff?
It would just be in my closet.
For what?
Like I'm not Real Housewives ofNew York.
It's like who are you and howdo you live into your values?
Versus your conditioning versusthe conditioning.
(11:17):
Even now.
I'm just taking it a stepfurther.
It's not just conditioning offamily and friends, but also
media, television, et cetera.
Friend is just looking at me,brenda's just looking at me.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I'm just thinking about what gala I can invite you
to so you can wear your diamondnecklace.
Yeah, this is really great.
I mean, goodness, I used to sayyes to everything Not really
everything, but I used to sayyes to a lot of things.
I used to spend a ton of money.
I used to do retail therapy.
I was just always shopping andbuying things.
(11:53):
On my way home from teaching.
I would stop at the localItalian market and buy all the
goodies.
I was just spending a lot ofmoney, but it was all wonderful,
but it was not satisfying.
I would go to Nordstrom and Iwould buy talk about designer
clothes.
I would just buy a bunch ofstuff and I would come home and
(12:16):
it would feel really great, alsostopping at the market on the
way home, going out to eat, justspending a lot of money, and it
was just never satisfying.
Once I wore the clothes once ortwice, I wanted to go shopping
again and I was justoverspending.
(12:36):
I was married at the time andmy husband would always be like
we need to keep the AmericanExpress bill down and I would
say okay, but I just didn't.
Or maybe I would do it for alittle bit, but mostly, I don't
think I did.
I don't think either one of usreally did and yeah, it was fun
(12:58):
but it was wasteful.
It was a hungry ghost.
It was something that couldnever really satisfy me to the
core me to the core and I'm sothoughtful with my finances now.
I love to spend money.
I really do.
I love spending money.
(13:22):
I love buying people presents.
I just drove cross country andI got presents for my kids and
for some some little kids, a fewpeople.
I didn't get presents foreveryone, like you said.
I think the old me would havebeen like I need to buy presents
for everybody, every singleperson I know, and I need like
an extra carload of stuff justfor the stuff.
Now it's like what actuallysparks me, who do I want to buy
(13:44):
presents for, for, and what ismy actual capacity to spend
money on gifts, what feels good,what's responsible, and I feel
really great about the presencethat I got and the way that I
(14:05):
spend money.
Now I really think about wheredo I want to put my energy, my
time, my energy and my finances,because those are our resources
and to me, that's freedom, likereally being mindful about
where I put those three thingsmy time, my energy and my money,
and it's not just going to acraft fair or the mall or even a
(14:27):
wonderful farmer's market andblowing hundreds of dollars.
While that's really fun and,yes, I can justify it it's
wonderful and healthy and I'mgoing to make all kinds of soups
and soups, but it doesn'tactually feel good to do that,
and so I'm really thoughtfulabout where do I spend my money,
(14:48):
and so I'm really thoughtfulabout where do I spend my money,
and that, to me, is freedom.
It's complete freedom, where Ithink I used to feel like the
freedom was just in buyingwhatever I wanted whenever I
wanted, and that was definitelyfalse.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Freedom is definitely connected to choice.
You're having me think of thesaying I don't want to be on a
diet because I want to be ableto eat whatever I want.
One of my teachers is talkingto a student, and so he asked
the student if there were a cakeor cookies or some form of a
(15:27):
treat, or even pizza, would yoube able to not eat it?
And they're like well, I wouldwant to eat it.
Like, I want to be free to eatit.
He's like, but would you beable to not eat it?
In other words, unless you cansay yes or no to something and
(15:53):
it be value neutral either way,like yes, you're going to have
an affinity for one, but youhave to be able it has to be
within your capacity to chooseeither or, and that's when
there's freedom.
So what I hear you saying,brenda, is oh, you do like to
(16:14):
spend money.
That is a very comfortablego-to, and now you have so much
more discernment around it andyou can pause and ask yourself
what's going to feel good, whatdo I really want to do and
what's within my capacity.
So there's so much choice andso much thought around it.
It's just not like willy-nillyreactive for me.
If I'm thinking about my ownexample, my own boundary
settings, let's say, christmas,part of the things I had to work
(16:38):
through were can I feelcomfortable going to an event
and, let's say, one year Ididn't have it?
Can I just not buy it?
Can I be the person that justdidn't buy gifts?
And how big that felt at thetime, like all the guilt and all
the shame that comes up andworking through that.
(16:59):
And then, once I was able towork through that, there's so
much more freedom around it,like this.
Past Christmas was a goodChristmas.
I was able to, like, send somegifts for kids and things like
that that are in my family, andit felt really nice to do and it
came from a place of reallywanting to and being able to,
(17:23):
versus the rules that I hadcreated a few years back where,
okay, no adults and yes kids,but even that I took it further.
It's not just okay, no adultsand yes kids, but even that I
took it further.
It's not just yes kids justbecause yes kids.
It's like, yes kids, and can I,like you said, is it within the
realm of my capacity and do Iactually want to?
And so, ultimately, what we'retalking about right now is
(17:47):
freedom isn't just doingwhatever you want.
Ultimately, what we're talkingabout right now is freedom,
isn't just doing whatever youwant.
And even when we think we wantto just do whatever we want,
it's sort of like the thing wesay but it's not really whatever
we want, it's what we wantbecause we don't want anything
else.
That is the compulsion.
We want that and we want it inthis way, in this form, and we
(18:09):
want to feel free to do it.
Like I deserve to go onvacation.
Yes, I'll have to charge it andI have to go into debt for it,
but I deserve to have it.
Right.
That sort of versus what'sactually within capacity, what's
actually within my values andhow can I prepare for this.
(18:32):
If vacation is the thing, howcan I discern and how can I
prepare myself for that?
Does that mean that I'mmeditating twice a day Like what
am I doing for myself on aday-to-day to handle the rest
that is required currently,because I'm like air quotes
(18:52):
saying vacation, or is itsomething else?
Like the discernment piece, thebeing able to be with what's
actually happening with you, isreally important.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
You know, it just came to me.
When you're talking, it's aslightly different topic, but
all in the idea of freedom, whenyou're talking about freedom is
choice.
So I'm thinking about peoplewith their phones and how people
think, just because the phonerings, that they have to answer
it, and that I think was alwaystrue when people had phones on
(19:24):
the walls.
Remember the days of phones onthe wall with a wire, the good
old days.
But with the phones now in yourpocket, oh my goodness.
I don't know if people's phonesring so much.
But texts, people think youhave to answer the phone when it
rings and you have to answeryour texts and you have to look
(19:45):
at your notifications on socialmedia, and I think people feel
victimized by this, likeunderneath it, like there's no
choice, and I think it reallyinterferes with people's lives
because you don't.
I think real freedom with myphone and honoring my phone as
part of my life, not as my life,that it runs my life the
(20:09):
freedom for me is putting myphone down, not opening texts if
I don't have the capacity toopen them.
That is not something that Iused to be able to do.
I used to just open all thetexts and then get completely
overloaded, thinking I had torespond to everything, read
everything and respond to it.
Wow, that is the opposite offreedom.
(20:32):
That's just literally feelingcontrolled by a device in your
pocket which feels horrible.
And then, when you do that,people even around me who were
just on their phones anddistracted they're not present.
It doesn't feel good to bearound and the alternate is a
(20:54):
lot of freedom, like, oh, thisis a tool in my life, not
something that controls me, butsomething that I actually have
boundaries around and I nolonger answer texts just because
they're there.
I don't always answer the phonewhen it rings, except when it's
my kids, not 100% of the time,depending on what's going on,
(21:17):
but that, to me, is freedom withthe phone.
I think that's a place where alot of people are not feeling
free right now.
It's really of people are notfeeling free right now.
It's really it's just.
On.
The other side of this ischoice and just the awareness
that you don't have to pick itup, you don't have to read it.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, and the messy piece in this it's an example
that you're bringing, I lovethis example, it's so true is
some people go through likesocial media detox, right, they
take their apps off their phone.
I personally put my phone downaround 9 pm every day.
Will people text me?
Yeah, are people calling me?
(21:55):
Yes, am I awake sometimes afterthat?
Absolutely, but I have to sortof forcefully put it down
because I won't be able to havemy phone on me as I'm doing
other things reading, writing,whatever and not want to look at
it.
So I'm at a choice point yes,because the choice is all right,
this is the rule.
(22:16):
Phone comes down, but I'm notat a choice point where it will
be on me and I won't look at ittime to time.
And so the messy part before weare at full choice and the
ability of having something andnot wanting to be pulled by or
not actually being pulled by, itis okay.
What are little snippets?
Maybe I put my phone down ormaybe I don't.
(22:38):
I think Brenda has a verystrong morning practice where
she doesn't look at her phone.
I don't have such a strongmorning practice Like where can
you be free?
Or can you start to implementsome discernment and some
awareness so that you could havea little bit more choice.
So, hopefully, with everythingthat we've talked about today,
(22:58):
we want to leave you with thethought of, like, what is
freedom to you?
Where are you feeling less free?
Where are the places that youfeel really free to do air
quotes whatever you want?
And is that really true?
Is it when you say I want to dowhatever I want, does that mean
(23:19):
that you're just free to do andnot do?
Or are you just using that as ablanket permission slip and
it's more of a compulsion andit's more of a have to?
But we're labeling it.
Oh, I love to do whatever Iwant.
I'm ground, I get to dowhatever I want, but it's
actually.
I have no other choice, becausethis is what's really calling
(23:42):
me.
Let us know what you thought,let us know your thoughts on
freedom.
We'd love to hear from you.
That's a wrap.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
(24:03):
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Inviting you into our world.
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life,motherhood relationships and my
business Desire has taken me onquite a ride and every day I
practice listening to andfollowing the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
(00:35):
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back, friends.
(01:33):
Recently I was in aconversation talking about
freedom, and when we think aboutfreedom in the context of
personal growth or when I thinkabout it, it's definitely
different than when I was a kid.
I think being a kid, freedomfeels like turning 18, being out
of the house, being able to goto sleep when you want, wake up
when you want All these freedomsbecause somebody else is
(01:54):
deciding for you, right?
It's like all these placeswhere we want to be responsible,
or not necessarily.
We want to be responsible.
I think it's more.
We don't want to have to listento someone, but then 18, 19
comes and we don't necessarilywant to be responsible for that
either.
We just don't want to be ledand ruled by another.
(02:15):
But it's really not about justdoing whatever you want, because
that doesn't really exist.
There are consequences to ouractions and our inaction.
It's really not about justdoing whatever you want, because
that doesn't really exist.
There are consequences to ouractions and our inactions.
We definitely feel or have amore functioning life when we
(02:36):
are responsible for ourselves.
And so Brenda and I thenstarted talking about it.
She's here, looking lovely asalways.
She's here looking lovely asalways.
When I feel into freedom formyself, I feel so grateful for
the level of freedom that I have.
And when I entered intopersonal growth whether it was
(03:02):
energy work, meditation, tai Chi, qigong and then therapy after
that I think the biggest thingsI wanted was to stop
overthinking, to stop feeling soanxious about things.
I used to worry about what isthe best decision, left, right.
I mean, I used to make myselfinsane thinking about all the
(03:24):
worst case scenarios and how Iwould deal with those.
I'd go with a huge pro-con listall the time in my mind, and
that definitely did not feellike freedom.
I think what I would have wantedat the time was maybe a magic
wand or to just wake up and notcare.
I think the first step for mein that arena of freedom was
just not caring.
(03:45):
The efforts like the big oldfuck.
It's like fuck this person,fuck this, fuck that fuck like
it.
It was just like a lot of repel.
I just don't care.
That was my first step.
I don't think I ever in mywildest dreams would know what
(04:06):
it feels like now, 30 plus yearsinto it.
What is it like for you, brenda?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
I love all of this that you're sharing.
You made me think that what isit that I wanted to have in my
life and I definitely wanted tostop beating myself up in my
life.
And I definitely wanted to stopbeating myself up.
I wanted to stop secondguessing myself.
I wanted to be able to make adecision, a choice for my life
(04:38):
and feel really good about itand trust myself.
And I wanted I wanted to beable to follow desire, which led
me on an entire path offollowing desire, making quite a
mess, because, when I look back, a lot of it was from a place
(05:01):
of starvation anddeprivationvation, from being
bound up for so long living thelife that I lived, focusing more
on Getting it right and beingperfect, partly so I don't have
to beat myself up.
If I'm perfect, then I'm safeand I don't have to beat myself
(05:22):
up and go into that crazy,horrible head spin.
And it was like I kind of likethe Roman Colosseum when the
lions are kept in cages forweeks before a big event in
ancient Rome where they would gofight the gladiators or another
animal.
(05:43):
They put the animals in cages sothat they get like ferocious
and really hungry.
I was not saying I wasferocious, but I was very.
I was ferociously hungry, let'ssay that, and it led to what I
thought was a lot of freedom,was actually a lot of rebellion
and acting out of starvation anddeprivation, which sent me on a
(06:04):
whole journey, and I had to gothrough that.
I had to go through that partof my journey, which was
wonderful and exciting andadventurous, and it was a lot of
desire, but it led me down aroad of crashing eventually,
where then I had to really learnwhat real freedom was.
(06:25):
But those are the things thatcame to mind when you asked what
is it that I originally wanted?
And, basically, how do youtrust yourself, how do you live
a life, how do you be who youtruly are, live a life that you
love and trust yourself alongthe way?
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I love how you talk about, you know, the rebellious
piece, because there is apendulum swing from where we are
to where we weren't before.
We can sort of swing back tocenter.
There's almost like complete180 away from where we are.
I think, coming my startingplace of rescuer, of like where
(07:13):
can I help or where am I neededto?
Then really being indiscernment and the buckets I
thought that was the nextlocation.
But being there for really long, being the kind of person
that's like you know what, thisperson doesn't deserve that, or
this person didn't earn this, orwhy am I doing this for this
(07:33):
person that sort of thoughtprocess, that sort of thinking,
that pattern of thinking led meto a place where I was really
closed off and I was not heartopen anymore because I had shut
down so many or put up so manywalls, shut down, closed so many
doors, and then it was tons ofwork to open it again.
(07:55):
Like how can I be soft, open,loving and have discernment and
find my choice?
So there are messy parts for us.
We have a starting point, wehave a place we want to go,
where we think freedom lives,and usually before we get to
(08:18):
where freedom lives, we're inthis discomfort, but the
discomfort is part of the work.
It's us in it.
We are, with the friction, sortof polishing our own stone.
We think about freedom.
It's not really about doingwhatever you want, it's about
having choice.
Brenda so gorgeously stated shereally wanted to live with more
(08:43):
desire.
I wanted to definitely livewith more peace.
Freedom is the ability for usto respond to life based on our
reality instead of our wounds,to respond to life from a place
of our values instead of ourconditioning.
(09:04):
So, for example, I was verymuch, or have been, a person of
acts of service or very generousand gift giving.
So if I'm someone who's livingfor my values, I started to
learn how to, instead of buyingeverybody something for
Christmas that I know becausethat's what you air quotes to
you.
That was part of myconditioning Starting to ask
(09:27):
myself who do I actually want tobuy something for.
That changed my whole Christmasshopping habits.
I changed from getting adultthings to only children.
It helped my pocket.
I wasn't spending two plus K aChristmas season.
I was getting to really honormy values, which is I love to
(09:48):
see children thriving.
We're just excited.
I think that's a time in ourlife where we get to be kids,
like that's the time where wehave that false sense of freedom
and I want to definitelycontribute to that false sense
of freedom and just having agreat time versus the wounded
(10:11):
part or the conditioned part ofthis is what I have to do,
because this is how we do it,this is how we do it in our
family, or this is how we do itin our friend group.
This is how we do it.
Or I don't buy name brandthings because, well, I don't
think that I'm in the financialbracket to do that.
(10:32):
I don't think I've ever reallybeen there.
It doesn't make sense to me.
And there was a time where Iwould say but I could
technically air quotes affordthe Chanel bag, or I could air
quotes afford Louis Vuitton bag,or I could air quotes afford
the Louis Vuitton bag.
But now, when I live in myvalues, it's like where would I
(10:57):
wear that diamond necklace?
Like I'm not at galas.
I don't go to black tie events.
What am I doing with this stuff?
It would just be in my closet.
For what?
Like I'm not Real Housewives ofNew York.
It's like who are you and howdo you live into your values?
Versus your conditioning versusthe conditioning.
(11:17):
Even now.
I'm just taking it a stepfurther.
It's not just conditioning offamily and friends, but also
media, television, et cetera.
Friend is just looking at me,brenda's just looking at me.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
I'm just thinking about what gala I can invite you
to so you can wear your diamondnecklace.
Yeah, this is really great.
I mean, goodness, I used to sayyes to everything Not really
everything, but I used to sayyes to a lot of things.
I used to spend a ton of money.
I used to do retail therapy.
I was just always shopping andbuying things.
(11:53):
On my way home from teaching.
I would stop at the localItalian market and buy all the
goodies.
I was just spending a lot ofmoney, but it was all wonderful,
but it was not satisfying.
I would go to Nordstrom and Iwould buy talk about designer
clothes.
I would just buy a bunch ofstuff and I would come home and
(12:16):
it would feel really great, alsostopping at the market on the
way home, going out to eat, justspending a lot of money, and it
was just never satisfying.
Once I wore the clothes once ortwice, I wanted to go shopping
again and I was justoverspending.
(12:36):
I was married at the time andmy husband would always be like
we need to keep the AmericanExpress bill down and I would
say okay, but I just didn't.
Or maybe I would do it for alittle bit, but mostly, I don't
think I did.
I don't think either one of usreally did and yeah, it was fun
(12:58):
but it was wasteful.
It was a hungry ghost.
It was something that couldnever really satisfy me to the
core me to the core and I'm sothoughtful with my finances now.
I love to spend money.
I really do.
I love spending money.
(13:22):
I love buying people presents.
I just drove cross country andI got presents for my kids and
for some some little kids, a fewpeople.
I didn't get presents foreveryone, like you said.
I think the old me would havebeen like I need to buy presents
for everybody, every singleperson I know, and I need like
an extra carload of stuff justfor the stuff.
Now it's like what actuallysparks me, who do I want to buy
(13:44):
presents for, for, and what ismy actual capacity to spend
money on gifts, what feels good,what's responsible, and I feel
really great about the presencethat I got and the way that I
(14:05):
spend money.
Now I really think about wheredo I want to put my energy, my
time, my energy and my finances,because those are our resources
and to me, that's freedom, likereally being mindful about
where I put those three thingsmy time, my energy and my money,
and it's not just going to acraft fair or the mall or even a
(14:27):
wonderful farmer's market andblowing hundreds of dollars.
While that's really fun and,yes, I can justify it it's
wonderful and healthy and I'mgoing to make all kinds of soups
and soups, but it doesn'tactually feel good to do that,
and so I'm really thoughtfulabout where do I spend my money,
(14:48):
and so I'm really thoughtfulabout where do I spend my money,
and that, to me, is freedom.
It's complete freedom, where Ithink I used to feel like the
freedom was just in buyingwhatever I wanted whenever I
wanted, and that was definitelyfalse.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
Freedom is definitely connected to choice.
You're having me think of thesaying I don't want to be on a
diet because I want to be ableto eat whatever I want.
One of my teachers is talkingto a student, and so he asked
the student if there were a cakeor cookies or some form of a
(15:27):
treat, or even pizza, would yoube able to not eat it?
And they're like well, I wouldwant to eat it.
Like, I want to be free to eatit.
He's like, but would you beable to not eat it?
In other words, unless you cansay yes or no to something and
(15:53):
it be value neutral either way,like yes, you're going to have
an affinity for one, but youhave to be able it has to be
within your capacity to chooseeither or, and that's when
there's freedom.
So what I hear you saying,brenda, is oh, you do like to
(16:14):
spend money.
That is a very comfortablego-to, and now you have so much
more discernment around it andyou can pause and ask yourself
what's going to feel good, whatdo I really want to do and
what's within my capacity.
So there's so much choice andso much thought around it.
It's just not like willy-nillyreactive for me.
If I'm thinking about my ownexample, my own boundary
settings, let's say, christmas,part of the things I had to work
(16:38):
through were can I feelcomfortable going to an event
and, let's say, one year Ididn't have it?
Can I just not buy it?
Can I be the person that justdidn't buy gifts?
And how big that felt at thetime, like all the guilt and all
the shame that comes up andworking through that.
(16:59):
And then, once I was able towork through that, there's so
much more freedom around it,like this.
Past Christmas was a goodChristmas.
I was able to, like, send somegifts for kids and things like
that that are in my family, andit felt really nice to do and it
came from a place of reallywanting to and being able to,
(17:23):
versus the rules that I hadcreated a few years back where,
okay, no adults and yes kids,but even that I took it further.
It's not just okay, no adultsand yes kids, but even that I
took it further.
It's not just yes kids justbecause yes kids.
It's like, yes kids, and can I,like you said, is it within the
realm of my capacity and do Iactually want to?
And so, ultimately, what we'retalking about right now is
(17:47):
freedom isn't just doingwhatever you want.
Ultimately, what we're talkingabout right now is freedom,
isn't just doing whatever youwant.
And even when we think we wantto just do whatever we want,
it's sort of like the thing wesay but it's not really whatever
we want, it's what we wantbecause we don't want anything
else.
That is the compulsion.
We want that and we want it inthis way, in this form, and we
(18:09):
want to feel free to do it.
Like I deserve to go onvacation.
Yes, I'll have to charge it andI have to go into debt for it,
but I deserve to have it.
Right.
That sort of versus what'sactually within capacity, what's
actually within my values andhow can I prepare for this.
(18:32):
If vacation is the thing, howcan I discern and how can I
prepare myself for that?
Does that mean that I'mmeditating twice a day Like what
am I doing for myself on aday-to-day to handle the rest
that is required currently,because I'm like air quotes
(18:52):
saying vacation, or is itsomething else?
Like the discernment piece, thebeing able to be with what's
actually happening with you, isreally important.
Amen.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
You know, it just came to me.
When you're talking, it's aslightly different topic, but
all in the idea of freedom, whenyou're talking about freedom is
choice.
So I'm thinking about peoplewith their phones and how people
think, just because the phonerings, that they have to answer
it, and that I think was alwaystrue when people had phones on
(19:24):
the walls.
Remember the days of phones onthe wall with a wire, the good
old days.
But with the phones now in yourpocket, oh my goodness.
I don't know if people's phonesring so much.
But texts, people think youhave to answer the phone when it
rings and you have to answeryour texts and you have to look
(19:45):
at your notifications on socialmedia, and I think people feel
victimized by this, likeunderneath it, like there's no
choice, and I think it reallyinterferes with people's lives
because you don't.
I think real freedom with myphone and honoring my phone as
part of my life, not as my life,that it runs my life the
(20:09):
freedom for me is putting myphone down, not opening texts if
I don't have the capacity toopen them.
That is not something that Iused to be able to do.
I used to just open all thetexts and then get completely
overloaded, thinking I had torespond to everything, read
everything and respond to it.
Wow, that is the opposite offreedom.
(20:32):
That's just literally feelingcontrolled by a device in your
pocket which feels horrible.
And then, when you do that,people even around me who were
just on their phones anddistracted they're not present.
It doesn't feel good to bearound and the alternate is a
(20:54):
lot of freedom, like, oh, thisis a tool in my life, not
something that controls me, butsomething that I actually have
boundaries around and I nolonger answer texts just because
they're there.
I don't always answer the phonewhen it rings, except when it's
my kids, not 100% of the time,depending on what's going on,
(21:17):
but that, to me, is freedom withthe phone.
I think that's a place where alot of people are not feeling
free right now.
It's really of people are notfeeling free right now.
It's really it's just.
On.
The other side of this ischoice and just the awareness
that you don't have to pick itup, you don't have to read it.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Yes, and the messy piece in this it's an example
that you're bringing, I lovethis example, it's so true is
some people go through likesocial media detox, right, they
take their apps off their phone.
I personally put my phone downaround 9 pm every day.
Will people text me?
Yeah, are people calling me?
(21:55):
Yes, am I awake sometimes afterthat?
Absolutely, but I have to sortof forcefully put it down
because I won't be able to havemy phone on me as I'm doing
other things reading, writing,whatever and not want to look at
it.
So I'm at a choice point yes,because the choice is all right,
this is the rule.
(22:16):
Phone comes down, but I'm notat a choice point where it will
be on me and I won't look at ittime to time.
And so the messy part before weare at full choice and the
ability of having something andnot wanting to be pulled by or
not actually being pulled by, itis okay.
What are little snippets?
Maybe I put my phone down ormaybe I don't.
(22:38):
I think Brenda has a verystrong morning practice where
she doesn't look at her phone.
I don't have such a strongmorning practice Like where can
you be free?
Or can you start to implementsome discernment and some
awareness so that you could havea little bit more choice.
So, hopefully, with everythingthat we've talked about today,
(22:58):
we want to leave you with thethought of, like, what is
freedom to you?
Where are you feeling less free?
Where are the places that youfeel really free to do air
quotes whatever you want?
And is that really true?
Is it when you say I want to dowhatever I want, does that mean
(23:19):
that you're just free to do andnot do?
Or are you just using that as ablanket permission slip and
it's more of a compulsion andit's more of a have to?
But we're labeling it.
Oh, I love to do whatever Iwant.
I'm ground, I get to dowhatever I want, but it's
actually.
I have no other choice, becausethis is what's really calling
(23:42):
me.
Let us know what you thought,let us know your thoughts on
freedom.
We'd love to hear from you.
That's a wrap.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining us on theDesire is Medicine podcast
(24:03):
Desire invites us to be honest,loving and deeply intimate with
ourselves and others.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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