June 11, 2025 • 38 mins
We all want freedom but are our go-to comforts actually keeping us stuck? In this revealing episode, Brenda and Catherine explore the fine line between real freedom and sophisticated forms of avoidance.
From Netflix binges to spontaneous vacations, they examine how common pleasures can sometimes act as distractions from discomfort. Through honest personal stories, they uncover how facing limitations, rather than escaping them, builds deeper resilience and lasting liberation.
This conversation invites you to explore your own habits with compassion and curiosity. What are you avoiding? What would true freedom really feel like?
Episode Highlights:
- Common escape routes: Netflix, shopping, social media, and more
- Why temporary relief often delays real growth
- How simple actions (like going for a walk or cooking) can feel more freeing than elaborate distractions
- The connection between avoidance and feeling stuck
- How backing yourself in hard moments builds confidence and freedom
- Cultivating curiosity (not shame) around escapism
- Recognizing where you don’t yet have full choice
- Understanding that true freedom often comes through discomfort, not away from it
Share this episode, write a review on Apple Podcasts, and let us know how this conversation landed for you.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back Feels so good torecord.
We really have such a gorgeouslibrary of work.
(01:38):
We are past the 90s, which isso exciting.
We've been on this freedom kick, so I'm really excited for all
of you to get to listen and hearus and be here with us as we
dive deep into these differenttopics.
Hopefully you're getting asmuch out of it as we are.
(02:01):
One of the things that came upthe other day out of it as we
are One of the things that cameup the other day while we were
doing some freedom episodes wasthe idea of escapism, like there
are things that we turn to forfreedom.
Right, you had a long day like,oh, I can't wait to get home and
have sex.
Or I can't wait to get home andhave a drink.
(02:22):
Or I can't wait.
Like the summer's coming, I'mgoing to have a vacation.
Or ooh, the girls shoppingweekend is coming.
Or I'm going to get ready formy kid's prom, or that wedding,
that graduation.
There's a place where we subtly, are letting go of.
Today there's a place wherewe're sort of not wanting to
(02:45):
look at.
How can I make today feel thatgood?
How can I not be so trappedtoday?
How can I have a little morefreedom today?
Where is the resource for thefreedom today, the potential
resource?
Because often the party, thevacation, the drinks, the sex
like it can be a distraction.
Because often the party, thevacation, the drinks, the sex
(03:05):
like it can be a distraction.
It doesn't have to be.
I know a time for me when Istarted to make an influx of
money probably late 20s, early30s where shopping there was
like like really shoppingtherapy.
Shopping was like therapy,spending money.
I didn't really know how to bewith money.
Now, in my 50s, I'm like tryingto clean up all those places
(03:27):
where I picked up those badhabits.
They're definitely bad habits.
I probably would have gained alot more if I had paused and
said to myself wow, what is thisLike?
Why do I need this bag in allthe colors?
Or if I had a heartbreak likewhy does it have to be brownies,
(03:48):
ice creams and cookies?
Like what exactly am I notlooking to feel?
So sometimes I've escaped withmoney, with shopping, with food,
or even if I was out withfriends we've talked about deep
conversations.
But if it was just aconversation we've talked about
deep conversations, but if itwas just a conversation, where
it was a top level conversation,I was like, oh great, I really
(04:12):
don't have to go in deep intoanything Like sometimes where we
think we're free.
Oh, I just had a great night,you know, I just out, got to
party, I got to put everythingdown.
But what's happening underneath, like, where is that escape?
Sometimes, what we thinkfreedom feels like can just be
us opening those handcuffs for alittle while, going to do
(04:34):
something, coming back to ourlives.
And coming back into our livesoften feels like we're just
putting those handcuffs rightback on.
What comes up for you, brenda,I'm here with my lovely co-host,
as always, because she'sfantastic, fantastic, she's
fabulous.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I love that she's doing this with me, brenda thank
you, katherine, escaping withall of these little vices.
I definitely was a shopper,definitely used to do retail
therapy.
Sometimes that will even stillcome up.
I'll be on Amazon, I'll beclicking away in some form and
(05:12):
then I'll catch myself.
It's so easy to do, definitely.
Another way that I'll do itthese days is Netflix.
I noticed even just last weekoh, I'm watching Netflix every
night.
I'm like consuming shows, likeI'll get into phases where I'll
(05:32):
be consuming a show and thenit's over and then I want the
next show.
It crosses the line at thatpoint of being entertaining and
nourishing when it gets intoconsumption.
And it's so easy to do thesedays with live streaming.
And I noticed there's a trendin TV shows now where they're,
instead of having them all theepisodes you know ready for you,
(05:54):
where you could binge it, whichis just so fun, like I love to
binge a show, now they'redropping them once a week.
Certain shows are just beingdropped once a week, which is
really great.
It's frustrating and part of medoesn't like it.
But the part of me, like thebigger part of me, that loves
the delayed gratification andloves to actually enjoy my life
(06:17):
instead of consuming shows, I'mreally happy when that happens
and it's just great to noticeLike there's no shame here,
there's no beating myself up.
It's no shame here, there's nobeating myself up.
It's very easy to fall into anyof these habits and it's just
noticing.
So recently I noticed oh, I'mconsuming shows, what would
actually be the real resourcethat I need.
(06:39):
What's the actual resource?
Because sometimes it is Netflix.
I just want to hang out andwatch a movie.
That's so nourishing but, likeI said, when it gets into
consumption and like I have tohave it, it feels like a fix.
No, that's not the resourceanymore.
So lately I've been turning thelights off at night.
I'll light a candle and I'llput on my favorite evening
(07:01):
playlist, which is okay I'mgoing to out myself for being an
80s kid soft Billy Joel, I loveit.
Sing along with all the music.
The lights are out, I couldjust chill out there before bed
and it's so nourishing.
Now, to me that feels like anactual resource no technology,
(07:23):
no bright lights in my face atnight and I'm actually getting
nourished and my body's relaxing.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
What you're touching on has me think about I may be
guilty of this.
I'm like, oh, what you'resaying sounds so slow and it
does sound deeply nourishing andin my head I'm like a dance
party would be so much more fun,right.
And I'm like, oh, I could seehow, if it's not bright lights,
(07:54):
loud music, potentially for meright now I may not look at it
like true restoration, but it'smore I'm noticing my mindset
than the actual things that Iengage in.
Like I think it's my beliefbecause I could hear it behind,
as you were saying, I was like,oh, I don't know if I would see
(08:16):
that it would definitely help mefall asleep, though that
activity versus the shows that Iwatch that are usually some
form of cop show, serial killer,and they're like gunning him
down, my heart's like, it's likefluttering.
That's definitely not gettingme ready for bed.
I'm like about to jump out ofmy skin and for sure, billy Joel
(08:39):
, chilling out lights offcandles, sort of soothing the
nervous system, soothing mynervous system and getting ready
to just sort of like really putit down.
I think of freedom, I think of,you know, pleasure, no
responsibilities, like we get tosort of have an easy something,
something in my mind, but inactual practice, when I want to
(09:05):
have a break from my day-to-day,I'm not thinking, oh, billy
Joel and candles.
I'm thinking, oh, where do Iwant to go?
Maybe Aruba?
Where do I want to visit?
What do I?
Where do I want to travel to?
And it's definitely not easeful, right, you've got to get on a
plane and you have to go whenyou're traveling, and it's not
Billy Joel and candles.
So I wonder you know whatactually is a real freedom fix?
(09:29):
It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What's a freedom fix To me?
What I hear in that questionand I don't know if this is how
you meant it, but I hear what'sthe actual nourishing resource?
And I keep having this thoughtrun through my mind.
It's actually an image whilewe're sitting here talking.
I'm thinking about Billy Joeland candles and soft light, and
(09:53):
it's so nourishing.
But I also am thinking what areall the things that would
really nourish me, Like, whatare some of the things that
would nourish me at nightbesides Netflix?
And one of the things that comesnourish me at night besides
Netflix, and one of the thingsthat comes up, a big desire, and
I don't think I've given thisto myself in a long time, but
it's a really beautiful thing.
It's so simple An after dinnerwalk.
(10:16):
I feel like I've done, or Iused to do, after dinner walks a
lot, or it's kind of a maybe avacation-y thing to do.
You go on a walk after dinnerand I don't do that anymore and
I'm sitting here going.
Oh, that would be reallynourishing, Like at twilight,
(10:36):
the warm weather's coming, Maybeyou get an ice cream along the
way, but it's not about that.
It's really just about thewalking, the sun coming down,
being alone or with someone.
That to me feels like a reallynourishing thing that I haven't
quite given myself in a while.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I love that because I think that I do give that to
myself in the summer.
I think the summertime, spring,summer, fall is a time for that
, whether it's a nighttime walkor a daytime walk.
It usually is after a meal,though it does feel the best
because usually after a meal Idon't want to do anything else.
So if I kind of go for a walkor go move, I'll stay in my body
(11:17):
and stay present and be able todo all the things that are on
my mind to do that day and thereis some sense of freedom that
comes with that, especially whenit's windy out, like we're in
New York, and there can be windmost of the time.
I live in an area where it'ssuper windy by the park and it
(11:39):
always feels so freeing Notquite like being on a boat with
a sailboat where there's breezeall the time because you're in
the middle of the ocean, butclose enough because I'm still
on land, and I really enjoy that.
That does give me sort of likewalking with the wind feeling of
freedom that could be.
I love that we're looking atwalking like a freedom fix.
(12:01):
Who knew, who knew walkingcould be freedom.
I that we're looking at walkinglike a freedom fix.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Who knew?
Who knew walking could befreedom.
I mean, it really is.
What a privilege and a joy tohave legs and live in a place
that is safe and beautiful, thatyou can walk.
It's so simple.
It's such a nice thing to do asa family or with kids.
When my kids were little, weused to go on after dinner walks
(12:24):
and sometimes they would havean ice cream cone.
So they would like have an icecream cone and walk with it.
And I just have this one memoryof like the ice cream just
dripping everywhere on the walk,Like I don't think we made it
very far, but it's such a.
It's such a lovely, fun thingto do with your family.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes I'm thinking of.
Most people are conditioned tograb an ice cream and sit
Totally and put on a movie.
I love doing that too.
Just pointing to ice creamspecifically, like how much
freedom there is to just let itdrip.
Oh my God, You're just melting.
It's all messy all over theplace and you're like it just is
.
It's just ice cream melting,it's okay.
(13:04):
I love that about kids.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I love that it could just drip all down their hands
and like onto their clothing.
It's just like drippingeverywhere and they don't care.
That really is freedom.
That is freedom.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
They're like I don't need to wash this, I don't need
to watch this, I don't have toworry about that part and they
don't care.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And what does it actually matter?
There's still ice cream to lick, that's true.
It's even better Cause it'sjust all over your fingers.
Imagine we just treated lifelike that, just like kept going,
even though it's like drippingand messy.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I wish I could.
I think I'm too controlled.
Still, I'm thinking about it.
I'm like, oh, I would bethinking about, oh, I'm going to
be sticky.
I don't like that Totally.
I'm going to have to wash thisright away.
I don't like that.
I would be thinking about allthose pieces and parts, but if I
didn't have to worry about itthen maybe I don't know.
(14:05):
Yeah, this idea of like, wherefreedom rubs up against, am I
really free or am I justescaping?
Like, am I just avoidingreality?
Am I trying to get rid of adiscomfort?
Um, and like I've talked abouttoday, where we you know, for me
, alcohol at some point,relationships at other points,
(14:28):
shopping maybe now would bescrolling or binging shows, like
you said, or maybe evenconsistent travel, like always
need a vacation, or how abouthow fun it is to obsess over
relationships, over, like, thatargument you had with this
person, or how such and such isnot exactly how you would
(14:52):
control them if you could.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Wait, are you talking about drama, the drama escape?
I mean, a lot of people reallyare.
If you're spending time in thedrama and he said what and she
said what and he did what, it'sso easy to get caught up in
social media in that way as well.
There's so many posts on socialmedia that you could take the
(15:18):
bait on and get all involved inthe drama.
There's just so much there.
Just talk about dripping.
It's like dripping everywhere,overworking.
Oh yeah, that's a really goodone.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
one for you Overworking.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Probably Because I like it, it's fun.
Yeah, I wouldn't defineoverworking the way I used to,
where overworking meant I waseither abandoning myself or not
listening to cues when I washungry or tired.
Now I listen to the cues andpause.
I mean, even today we weregetting ready to record and I
had to.
(15:54):
I said to Brenda I'm justtaking a moment because I need
to meditate.
I just really had to pause forthe day before I could continue.
Thankfully she's my co-host.
She's amazing.
She was like go give it toyourself, get it, get it.
But now what it would look likeis me making sure that the
(16:15):
things that I want to do and therelationships that I want to
maintain, that I'm making timefor those things.
They have to sort of besomewhere on my calendar in my
life.
Otherwise, yes, I could justignore it.
That would not be nice.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
It's very easy to just keep working, especially
when you do have your ownbusiness, or even if you're
somebody in corporate or when Iwas in teaching, there was
certainly work to always bringhome.
It's very easy to just keepworking.
There's really always somethingto do, especially now that
everything's online.
It's just endless.
(16:51):
You could just be endlesslyworking and it really is a trap
and I've had to create a lot ofboundaries with myself around
that one because it is fun and Ilove to create and I love the
things that I'm creating in mybusiness and I love working on
this podcast.
But also I want to have otherthings in my life.
I want to have a balance.
(17:12):
I saw this, this funny thing,on Facebook the other day.
Someone said I didn't want towork nine to five every day
anymore, so I quit my job and Istarted my own business and now
I work 24 seven.
That was really funny.
But it's easy to do and we needboundaries with ourself or else
(17:34):
we're just a slave to it.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
It's so true.
I mean, we're like moving nowinto a little bit of a different
segment, when we're like, okay,what really is just giving us
the freedom, hit like a falsefreedom, hit what is false
freedom versus true liberation,and think that sometimes, when
(17:58):
we engage in something that wethink is really good maybe the
binge, or the overwork, or theshop, the retail therapy At the
end we're like my bank accountis a little emptier or, oh, I'm
reliant on that vacation.
Or sometimes, maybe, like, oh,I still have that problem.
To get back to that I don'treally know how to handle, to
(18:24):
that I don't really know how tohandle because we just keep
putting it on the back burner sothat we can, you know, move
towards a little bit morecomfort, a little bit more joy,
a little bit more as I wastalking about before fun.
Sometimes true freedom requiresus to feel the uncomfortable
truths.
Here we are back to our triedand true desire formula of
having to feel our discomfort,to our tried and true desire
(18:48):
formula of having to feel ourdiscomfort like be in the
discomfort, reclaiming ouragency and our presence, where
we get to face our unmet,potentially unmet needs, unmet
desires and the grief that comeswith that.
I mean, we could even filter itlike does doing this bring me
back to myself or take mefurther away, right, does that
feel like a good spot?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
energy for me to back myself in what I really wanted
to do, and it would have beenvery easy to go for the quick
fixes.
I needed to do laundry and Iwanted to cook and, without
going into all the details, allof those things felt hard on
this particular day.
I couldn't get the washingmachine to go on, it was just.
Everything was hard and therewere so many moments that I
(19:45):
could very much justify droppingit and not continuing, or
instead of cooking, because itfelt a little hard, just let's
just go out to dinner or orderin.
And I really wanted cleanclothes, I really wanted
nourishing food, and so I keptcoming back to I'm going to just
do this laundry.
(20:05):
I ended up doing it at night,which was very much out of my
preferences, and I did end upcooking.
And I felt like with thosedecisions they weren't easy and
had to just keep coming back andhad to deal with so many little
obstacles along the way.
But it felt like this supremebacking of myself.
I felt like I was coming moreto myself, more of myself, and I
(20:32):
could feel an internal freedomwith all of these decisions.
Because if I just put thelaundry back in the basket and
said all right, I'll try thistomorrow.
Well, I'm just going to be inthe same boat tomorrow and I
still don't have clean clothesand that doesn't feel like the
life that I want to live.
And I am the first one to saylet's go out to dinner or order
(20:52):
in.
I love doing that.
I love spending my money inthat way.
I love food, I love restaurants, but not always.
You know.
There's a time where I reallywant to cook and I want to know
what oils are in my food andwhat ingredients are in my food
and I want to actually make it.
It's nourishing and fulfillingto me to get good ingredients
(21:14):
and to spend the time with myhands in the kitchen making food
and then feeding it to myselfand my partner.
That is really nourishing to me.
And so sometimes there areobstacles.
You just have to ask yourselfwhat do I really want here, what
would be the most nourishingthing and what do I have the
(21:34):
capacity for today?
And there's really no right orwrong.
If I had gone out to dinnerthat night, then great, so be it
, you know.
But it felt really good to backmyself in that way.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I love how you backed yourself and I love how you
were honest.
I don't know if all thelisteners know yet, but you
actually are a really good cookand you're a mom, so you were
cooking for two well, for yourbabies, in addition to your
whole family.
For many, many years I've seenBrenda cook.
She can whip something up superfast and it's really delicious.
And I think for moms who cookwell, it's probably like oh, I
(22:10):
just really miss my own food.
I do a really good job, right,and maybe there are flavors that
bring you comfort or that youknow exactly what's going to
feel good to your body and youcan nourish yourself in just the
right way.
And I think it's so honest andin that honesty, when you can
say to yourself I would love tohave someone cook for me and I'm
(22:35):
really sort of missing doingthat for myself, being in the
kitchen, hands in the food,knowing exactly what soils, what
oils are going into my food.
What I'm cooking with is aplace of really honoring
yourself and takingresponsibility.
But it doesn't feel likefreedom in the in the forefront.
It feels like freedom at theother side, like in the front
(22:56):
end.
It feels like, ah, there's allthis to do.
I wish I had a little minion orbutler right To give it to me
exactly how I wanted it, but youstill wouldn't have the
sensations that come from youbeing in there with your own
hands.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Totally, and it feels really good to move through
obstacles.
We don't always want things tobe smooth and easy.
I mean, we say that my word ofthe year is ease and I would
love things to be smooth andeasy.
But let me say it a differentway that's just not how life is.
Life just isn't smooth and easyall the time.
(23:36):
I can ask my higher power forit to be smooth and easy, but
there is generally a rub in lifeand that's where we get to meet
ourself.
We get to meet ourself, we getto see what we're made of, we
get to back ourselves, we get towork through obstacles and do
hard shit and that builds ourself-esteem to do hard things
(24:01):
and it grows us and it makes usresilient.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I know, I know I get that doing the hard things give
us self-esteem and just how Ididn't want to do it when I was
a little kid.
Often I don't want to do it asan adult either, like I don't
want to clean my room and Idon't want to brush my teeth and
I don't want to do all thethings, especially if I'm tired.
(24:23):
But it does give me theself-esteem on the other side.
It does have me feel, oh, I'vegot this, I've got me, like I
can easily either order out orcook it exactly how I want it
and feel better about myself onthe other side, not because I'm
feeling bad about myself rightthis moment, but understanding
(24:46):
that there's an impact based onmy decision as to how I want to
deal with this.
So do I want to face it fronton, head on straight, just
handle it, or do I want to sortof pass the buck and deal with
it in a different way?
There's a cost to giving it up.
(25:08):
There's a cost to giving myresponsibility to someone else,
becoming potentially evendependent on expecting other
people to show up for me in aspecific way so that I could be
okay or so I could feel safe orso I could feel taken care of.
Outsourcing all of that takes atoll on us in the long run.
(25:31):
I remember a time when I was inthis relationship this is like
many years back and he used tocook and do all the shopping and
one day after we had broken up,I walked into the supermarket
and I felt like an alien.
I was like I don't even rememberwhere all the things are in the
supermarket.
It had been that long.
(25:53):
It was really nice to havesomeone handle all those pieces
for me, but I don't know howgood it feels to feel that alien
in your own life after givingit to someone else to handle for
so long.
So I'd like to ask you, brendaand I'm going to ask myself the
(26:16):
same question here Like where inmy life right now do I notice
that I'm not actually free?
So I'll start and I'll sharethat.
I think it's around content.
The content takes me a longtime to write, takes me a long
time to sit with.
I feel like I become thislittle child.
That's like I don't know.
I don't know.
(26:37):
I don't know what I want to say, I don't know what I want to
share.
There's this like flailing partof me that just doesn't like it.
I could list all the reasons,but they're just reasons that or
excuses, or stories that I'mgiving to myself.
(26:57):
But basically it'suncomfortable and I've been
chipping away at it little bylittle for a while now I don't
even want to say how longbecause it's embarrassing, but I
should.
It's been a few years.
It's not like a few months or afew days.
It's been a few years.
It's not like a few months or afew days, it's been a few years
.
When I stay present with itinstead of escaping or not doing
(27:18):
it.
It's uncomfortable and it doesrequire me to be with the scared
part of me that doesn't evenknow why it's scared.
Or now I'm talking about partswork right, but maybe the little
one in me that's scared anddoesn't want to be visible, or
(27:39):
the part of me that's maybe myteenager and just my teenager
wants relief.
Our teenagers definitely don'twant to do any work.
The teenagers just want to be,and it's time for me to just be,
with the discomfort of it all,all my little ones screaming at
(28:02):
the top of their lungs that theyneed their needs to be met, and
this is uncomfortable and wedon't want to do it.
But I know in my mind, in mygrown-up mind, that the only way
I'll be really free from thisnot wanting to or not being
comfortable putting out contentis getting better at it.
(28:22):
That's where the true freedomis.
But when we think about falsefreedom, potentially it would be
to give it to somebody else todo, somebody else to manage,
hire an online business manager,or hire a virtual assistant,
somebody else that just does itfor me, but the result would
(28:43):
happen like the content would becreated, but I wouldn't have
built the resilience and thefreedom from it, and that's
really what I'm looking for.
So life is interesting likethat right, like we think we
want.
The result in this case wouldbe the ability to post, let's
say, easily, in all areas.
I say in all areas because Ilove my podcast, like I love our
(29:03):
podcast.
This, to me, is my favoritething of all time, but I have to
be in the trenches to get there.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I have to be in the trenches to get there.
What about you?
That's such a great example andI want to reflect back your
word of the year.
Since I mentioned my word ofthe year was ease.
Your word of the year is skills.
For some reason, I want tospell that with a Z at the end.
Make it more fun.
But your word of the year isskills and you want to learn how
(29:36):
to do these things and that'swhat you're focusing on this
year and that's quite beautiful.
So I don't think that you wantto just give, give it to
somebody else or pay somebodyelse.
You're you're in the trenchessaying I want to learn how to do
these things, like you'rereally backing yourself in that
way, really backing yourself inthat way.
Okay, so for me these are sovulnerable.
(29:58):
To admit this question of whereare you not fully free?
For me, it's in my energy, likehaving physical energy.
As listeners may know, I was ona four and a half month
cross-country road trip.
I've been back for almost twomonths.
(30:18):
Inside of that time, I moved, Iworked at retreat.
That was quite difficult andI've been setting up a new space
.
I've been setting up thestructure of my new space.
So when I came back from thetrip.
It's not like I came home andhad the soft place to land.
I came back to an empty spacewith like piles of boxes and
(30:39):
bags, and I've been workingevery single day to build the
structure of my new space formyself create, organize it, just
make it so I can live in it.
And it's taken an enormous tollon my energy.
Like not having my home set upfor myself, oh my God.
(31:02):
Like moving is really one ofthe biggest stressors, and
especially after such a longtrip not having that, and so my
energy has really taken a toll.
It's just the physical part ofmoving things around, plus the
mental piece of figuring thingsout.
(31:24):
How do I want to organize thisspace.
It's just made me exhausted,and so I've been backing myself
by working on it every day,doing something, unpacking
something, organizing something,ordering something that's
needed every day.
(31:44):
And when I say work on my roomevery day, sometimes that
actually means I have to laydown and rest.
Sometimes that's actuallywhat's needed, and sometimes
it's just been crying becauseI'm just tired or taking a bath.
All of those things have goneinto it and I just haven't had a
lot of extra energy, so I'vebeen working on my business in
(32:07):
the background.
I work on our podcast.
Those are my priorities.
My family is my priority aswell, and I just haven't had any
extra energy for anything else.
I haven't wanted to do anythingreally big socially and I feel
like that's not a place that I'mfully free.
I would love to feel more freeto go and do this and go and do
(32:29):
that and go to this show.
I haven't wanted to do itbecause it's just been
exhausting to me.
So and it is, it's confrontingand it's uncomfortable, because
I want to see certain peoplemore often that I'm actually
able to do right now.
And I also do want to reportthat I felt a really big change
(32:52):
in the last week.
I think, like all the restingand the, my room is pretty much
set up now.
I've rebuilt my energy workingon it, and so I actually went to
the city the other day and hadbrunch with my little sister,
and I was so happy that I hadthe energy to do that, and so
(33:16):
that's just something that I'mworking on, and my goal also was
I want to finish this up in themonth of May and I want to take
June off from setting up myspace and just give myself a
break and just enjoy life moreand do more things and have more
freedom to fill my own cup indifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I think that we've given listeners great examples,
because originally, when I firststarted talking about this
episode, I was talking about,like you know, vacations or
shopping, scrolling, binging,potentially drinking sex, those
sort of escapes and we landed ata place where I was talking
(34:00):
about content.
You were talking about yourroom, where there are places
where we're not really free.
We're not really free to chooseor not choose.
You're not really free to notdo your room because you want
the result of enjoying yourspace and I'm not really free to
not do your room because youwant the result of enjoying your
space and I'm not really freeto not do the content because
I'm not at a place where I couldtake it or leave it.
Like I'm not fluent in thatlanguage yet, and that's where
(34:25):
our opportunity lies.
Like where is it that we don'thave full choice, right?
Like where is it that we'regripping in some way to comfort?
So I'll ask listeners like whatare your favorite escape routes
and what is that route that'sprotecting you from?
(34:47):
So if it's drinking or binging,or scrolling or shopping, why
do you feel the need to do that?
And that's so you could writein about it.
It's drinking or binging, orscrolling, or shopping.
Why do you feel the need to dothat?
Not so you could write in aboutit although I'd love to listen,
I'm sure, brenda, and I wouldlove to be part of this for you
(35:07):
but more for you to feel into.
What is that for yourself, andwhat would freedom in that area
feel like in your body, in yourrelationships, in your
day-to-day life?
For me, freedom would feel likeoh, it doesn't take me that
long to write anymore.
Oh, it doesn't take me thatlong to figure this out.
I can batch, I can havesomething stocked.
(35:28):
That would feel really great.
For me, it would feel like tonsof freedom and space in my body
.
How about you, brenda?
What are we thinking you'regoing to feel like in June, when
your space is all set up andyou don't have to like escape
from fixing it?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my God, cue the dance music right now.
Yeah, it's just going to feelgreat, and it just already feels
great.
We had someone come in and laythe carpet this morning, amen,
and now I could just breathe andrest and let it be for a little
bit.
It just had to get done and Ijust want to say how
uncomfortable it is that it'sjust taking so long.
(36:06):
Like I just want it done likethat, and certain things, you
know, I did move along quicklyand other things just took a
long time Because my energy justwasn't there.
So it was really uncomfortable.
So it's gonna feel great.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I love that you brought that in, because the
truth is, we don't know how longsomething's going to take.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Things will take much longer than we think.
I mean, isn't that the rule?
Something will take three timeslonger than you planned, or
three times as much money.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Potentially, yes, I mean, I love the 3X idea.
I also think that we could sayto ourselves oh my God, I can't
believe this took so long to getto the freedom side of it,
because we're not really lookingat where the resistance was and
(37:01):
what the cost of thatresistance, or the cost of that
procrastination, or all thetimes that we gave into the
story where we didn't want to beuncomfortable, where we didn't
want to learn to scale ortraverse the space that was
necessary in order for us to getto the other side.
And if you're listening, I wantto encourage you that this is
not your time to beat yourselfup.
This is not.
(37:23):
We are approaching where we'restuck and where we're not free
predominantly with curiosity.
Not shame, just curiosity.
We can sort of scan our livesand see where am I trying to
escape and can I come back topresence.
Instead, let us know how thisepisode landed for you.
(37:44):
Share it, review our instagramor even go on apple podcast,
write a review, send us ascreenshot until next time.
Bye for now.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back Feels so good torecord.
We really have such a gorgeouslibrary of work.
(01:38):
We are past the 90s, which isso exciting.
We've been on this freedom kick, so I'm really excited for all
of you to get to listen and hearus and be here with us as we
dive deep into these differenttopics.
Hopefully you're getting asmuch out of it as we are.
(02:01):
One of the things that came upthe other day out of it as we
are One of the things that cameup the other day while we were
doing some freedom episodes wasthe idea of escapism, like there
are things that we turn to forfreedom.
Right, you had a long day like,oh, I can't wait to get home and
have sex.
Or I can't wait to get home andhave a drink.
(02:22):
Or I can't wait.
Like the summer's coming, I'mgoing to have a vacation.
Or ooh, the girls shoppingweekend is coming.
Or I'm going to get ready formy kid's prom, or that wedding,
that graduation.
There's a place where we subtly, are letting go of.
Today there's a place wherewe're sort of not wanting to
(02:45):
look at.
How can I make today feel thatgood?
How can I not be so trappedtoday?
How can I have a little morefreedom today?
Where is the resource for thefreedom today, the potential
resource?
Because often the party, thevacation, the drinks, the sex
like it can be a distraction.
Because often the party, thevacation, the drinks, the sex
(03:05):
like it can be a distraction.
It doesn't have to be.
I know a time for me when Istarted to make an influx of
money probably late 20s, early30s where shopping there was
like like really shoppingtherapy.
Shopping was like therapy,spending money.
I didn't really know how to bewith money.
Now, in my 50s, I'm like tryingto clean up all those places
(03:27):
where I picked up those badhabits.
They're definitely bad habits.
I probably would have gained alot more if I had paused and
said to myself wow, what is thisLike?
Why do I need this bag in allthe colors?
Or if I had a heartbreak likewhy does it have to be brownies,
(03:48):
ice creams and cookies?
Like what exactly am I notlooking to feel?
So sometimes I've escaped withmoney, with shopping, with food,
or even if I was out withfriends we've talked about deep
conversations.
But if it was just aconversation we've talked about
deep conversations, but if itwas just a conversation, where
it was a top level conversation,I was like, oh great, I really
(04:12):
don't have to go in deep intoanything Like sometimes where we
think we're free.
Oh, I just had a great night,you know, I just out, got to
party, I got to put everythingdown.
But what's happening underneath, like, where is that escape?
Sometimes, what we thinkfreedom feels like can just be
us opening those handcuffs for alittle while, going to do
(04:34):
something, coming back to ourlives.
And coming back into our livesoften feels like we're just
putting those handcuffs rightback on.
What comes up for you, brenda,I'm here with my lovely co-host,
as always, because she'sfantastic, fantastic, she's
fabulous.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
I love that she's doing this with me, brenda thank
you, katherine, escaping withall of these little vices.
I definitely was a shopper,definitely used to do retail
therapy.
Sometimes that will even stillcome up.
I'll be on Amazon, I'll beclicking away in some form and
(05:12):
then I'll catch myself.
It's so easy to do, definitely.
Another way that I'll do itthese days is Netflix.
I noticed even just last weekoh, I'm watching Netflix every
night.
I'm like consuming shows, likeI'll get into phases where I'll
(05:32):
be consuming a show and thenit's over and then I want the
next show.
It crosses the line at thatpoint of being entertaining and
nourishing when it gets intoconsumption.
And it's so easy to do thesedays with live streaming.
And I noticed there's a trendin TV shows now where they're,
instead of having them all theepisodes you know ready for you,
(05:54):
where you could binge it, whichis just so fun, like I love to
binge a show, now they'redropping them once a week.
Certain shows are just beingdropped once a week, which is
really great.
It's frustrating and part of medoesn't like it.
But the part of me, like thebigger part of me, that loves
the delayed gratification andloves to actually enjoy my life
(06:17):
instead of consuming shows, I'mreally happy when that happens
and it's just great to noticeLike there's no shame here,
there's no beating myself up.
It's no shame here, there's nobeating myself up.
It's very easy to fall into anyof these habits and it's just
noticing.
So recently I noticed oh, I'mconsuming shows, what would
actually be the real resourcethat I need.
(06:39):
What's the actual resource?
Because sometimes it is Netflix.
I just want to hang out andwatch a movie.
That's so nourishing but, likeI said, when it gets into
consumption and like I have tohave it, it feels like a fix.
No, that's not the resourceanymore.
So lately I've been turning thelights off at night.
I'll light a candle and I'llput on my favorite evening
(07:01):
playlist, which is okay I'mgoing to out myself for being an
80s kid soft Billy Joel, I loveit.
Sing along with all the music.
The lights are out, I couldjust chill out there before bed
and it's so nourishing.
Now, to me that feels like anactual resource no technology,
(07:23):
no bright lights in my face atnight and I'm actually getting
nourished and my body's relaxing.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
What you're touching on has me think about I may be
guilty of this.
I'm like, oh, what you'resaying sounds so slow and it
does sound deeply nourishing andin my head I'm like a dance
party would be so much more fun,right.
And I'm like, oh, I could seehow, if it's not bright lights,
(07:54):
loud music, potentially for meright now I may not look at it
like true restoration, but it'smore I'm noticing my mindset
than the actual things that Iengage in.
Like I think it's my beliefbecause I could hear it behind,
as you were saying, I was like,oh, I don't know if I would see
(08:16):
that it would definitely help mefall asleep, though that
activity versus the shows that Iwatch that are usually some
form of cop show, serial killer,and they're like gunning him
down, my heart's like, it's likefluttering.
That's definitely not gettingme ready for bed.
I'm like about to jump out ofmy skin and for sure, billy Joel
(08:39):
, chilling out lights offcandles, sort of soothing the
nervous system, soothing mynervous system and getting ready
to just sort of like really putit down.
I think of freedom, I think of,you know, pleasure, no
responsibilities, like we get tosort of have an easy something,
something in my mind, but inactual practice, when I want to
(09:05):
have a break from my day-to-day,I'm not thinking, oh, billy
Joel and candles.
I'm thinking, oh, where do Iwant to go?
Maybe Aruba?
Where do I want to visit?
What do I?
Where do I want to travel to?
And it's definitely not easeful, right, you've got to get on a
plane and you have to go whenyou're traveling, and it's not
Billy Joel and candles.
So I wonder you know whatactually is a real freedom fix?
(09:29):
It's a good question.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
What's a freedom fix To me?
What I hear in that questionand I don't know if this is how
you meant it, but I hear what'sthe actual nourishing resource?
And I keep having this thoughtrun through my mind.
It's actually an image whilewe're sitting here talking.
I'm thinking about Billy Joeland candles and soft light, and
(09:53):
it's so nourishing.
But I also am thinking what areall the things that would
really nourish me, Like, whatare some of the things that
would nourish me at nightbesides Netflix?
And one of the things that comesnourish me at night besides
Netflix, and one of the thingsthat comes up, a big desire, and
I don't think I've given thisto myself in a long time, but
it's a really beautiful thing.
It's so simple An after dinnerwalk.
(10:16):
I feel like I've done, or Iused to do, after dinner walks a
lot, or it's kind of a maybe avacation-y thing to do.
You go on a walk after dinnerand I don't do that anymore and
I'm sitting here going.
Oh, that would be reallynourishing, Like at twilight,
(10:36):
the warm weather's coming, Maybeyou get an ice cream along the
way, but it's not about that.
It's really just about thewalking, the sun coming down,
being alone or with someone.
That to me feels like a reallynourishing thing that I haven't
quite given myself in a while.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I love that because I think that I do give that to
myself in the summer.
I think the summertime, spring,summer, fall is a time for that
, whether it's a nighttime walkor a daytime walk.
It usually is after a meal,though it does feel the best
because usually after a meal Idon't want to do anything else.
So if I kind of go for a walkor go move, I'll stay in my body
(11:17):
and stay present and be able todo all the things that are on
my mind to do that day and thereis some sense of freedom that
comes with that, especially whenit's windy out, like we're in
New York, and there can be windmost of the time.
I live in an area where it'ssuper windy by the park and it
(11:39):
always feels so freeing Notquite like being on a boat with
a sailboat where there's breezeall the time because you're in
the middle of the ocean, butclose enough because I'm still
on land, and I really enjoy that.
That does give me sort of likewalking with the wind feeling of
freedom that could be.
I love that we're looking atwalking like a freedom fix.
(12:01):
Who knew, who knew walkingcould be freedom.
I that we're looking at walkinglike a freedom fix.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
Who knew?
Who knew walking could befreedom.
I mean, it really is.
What a privilege and a joy tohave legs and live in a place
that is safe and beautiful, thatyou can walk.
It's so simple.
It's such a nice thing to do asa family or with kids.
When my kids were little, weused to go on after dinner walks
(12:24):
and sometimes they would havean ice cream cone.
So they would like have an icecream cone and walk with it.
And I just have this one memoryof like the ice cream just
dripping everywhere on the walk,Like I don't think we made it
very far, but it's such a.
It's such a lovely, fun thingto do with your family.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes I'm thinking of.
Most people are conditioned tograb an ice cream and sit
Totally and put on a movie.
I love doing that too.
Just pointing to ice creamspecifically, like how much
freedom there is to just let itdrip.
Oh my God, You're just melting.
It's all messy all over theplace and you're like it just is
.
It's just ice cream melting,it's okay.
(13:04):
I love that about kids.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
I love that it could just drip all down their hands
and like onto their clothing.
It's just like drippingeverywhere and they don't care.
That really is freedom.
That is freedom.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
They're like I don't need to wash this, I don't need
to watch this, I don't have toworry about that part and they
don't care.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And what does it actually matter?
There's still ice cream to lick, that's true.
It's even better Cause it'sjust all over your fingers.
Imagine we just treated lifelike that, just like kept going,
even though it's like drippingand messy.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I wish I could.
I think I'm too controlled.
Still, I'm thinking about it.
I'm like, oh, I would bethinking about, oh, I'm going to
be sticky.
I don't like that Totally.
I'm going to have to wash thisright away.
I don't like that.
I would be thinking about allthose pieces and parts, but if I
didn't have to worry about itthen maybe I don't know.
(14:05):
Yeah, this idea of like, wherefreedom rubs up against, am I
really free or am I justescaping?
Like, am I just avoidingreality?
Am I trying to get rid of adiscomfort?
Um, and like I've talked abouttoday, where we you know, for me
, alcohol at some point,relationships at other points,
(14:28):
shopping maybe now would bescrolling or binging shows, like
you said, or maybe evenconsistent travel, like always
need a vacation, or how abouthow fun it is to obsess over
relationships, over, like, thatargument you had with this
person, or how such and such isnot exactly how you would
(14:52):
control them if you could.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Wait, are you talking about drama, the drama escape?
I mean, a lot of people reallyare.
If you're spending time in thedrama and he said what and she
said what and he did what, it'sso easy to get caught up in
social media in that way as well.
There's so many posts on socialmedia that you could take the
(15:18):
bait on and get all involved inthe drama.
There's just so much there.
Just talk about dripping.
It's like dripping everywhere,overworking.
Oh yeah, that's a really goodone.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Is that?
Speaker 1 (15:31):
one for you Overworking.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Probably Because I like it, it's fun.
Yeah, I wouldn't defineoverworking the way I used to,
where overworking meant I waseither abandoning myself or not
listening to cues when I washungry or tired.
Now I listen to the cues andpause.
I mean, even today we weregetting ready to record and I
had to.
(15:54):
I said to Brenda I'm justtaking a moment because I need
to meditate.
I just really had to pause forthe day before I could continue.
Thankfully she's my co-host.
She's amazing.
She was like go give it toyourself, get it, get it.
But now what it would look likeis me making sure that the
(16:15):
things that I want to do and therelationships that I want to
maintain, that I'm making timefor those things.
They have to sort of besomewhere on my calendar in my
life.
Otherwise, yes, I could justignore it.
That would not be nice.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
It's very easy to just keep working, especially
when you do have your ownbusiness, or even if you're
somebody in corporate or when Iwas in teaching, there was
certainly work to always bringhome.
It's very easy to just keepworking.
There's really always somethingto do, especially now that
everything's online.
It's just endless.
(16:51):
You could just be endlesslyworking and it really is a trap
and I've had to create a lot ofboundaries with myself around
that one because it is fun and Ilove to create and I love the
things that I'm creating in mybusiness and I love working on
this podcast.
But also I want to have otherthings in my life.
I want to have a balance.
(17:12):
I saw this, this funny thing,on Facebook the other day.
Someone said I didn't want towork nine to five every day
anymore, so I quit my job and Istarted my own business and now
I work 24 seven.
That was really funny.
But it's easy to do and we needboundaries with ourself or else
(17:34):
we're just a slave to it.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
It's so true.
I mean, we're like moving nowinto a little bit of a different
segment, when we're like, okay,what really is just giving us
the freedom, hit like a falsefreedom, hit what is false
freedom versus true liberation,and think that sometimes, when
(17:58):
we engage in something that wethink is really good maybe the
binge, or the overwork, or theshop, the retail therapy At the
end we're like my bank accountis a little emptier or, oh, I'm
reliant on that vacation.
Or sometimes, maybe, like, oh,I still have that problem.
To get back to that I don'treally know how to handle, to
(18:24):
that I don't really know how tohandle because we just keep
putting it on the back burner sothat we can, you know, move
towards a little bit morecomfort, a little bit more joy,
a little bit more as I wastalking about before fun.
Sometimes true freedom requiresus to feel the uncomfortable
truths.
Here we are back to our triedand true desire formula of
having to feel our discomfort,to our tried and true desire
(18:48):
formula of having to feel ourdiscomfort like be in the
discomfort, reclaiming ouragency and our presence, where
we get to face our unmet,potentially unmet needs, unmet
desires and the grief that comeswith that.
I mean, we could even filter itlike does doing this bring me
back to myself or take mefurther away, right, does that
feel like a good spot?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
energy for me to back myself in what I really wanted
to do, and it would have beenvery easy to go for the quick
fixes.
I needed to do laundry and Iwanted to cook and, without
going into all the details, allof those things felt hard on
this particular day.
I couldn't get the washingmachine to go on, it was just.
Everything was hard and therewere so many moments that I
(19:45):
could very much justify droppingit and not continuing, or
instead of cooking, because itfelt a little hard, just let's
just go out to dinner or orderin.
And I really wanted cleanclothes, I really wanted
nourishing food, and so I keptcoming back to I'm going to just
do this laundry.
(20:05):
I ended up doing it at night,which was very much out of my
preferences, and I did end upcooking.
And I felt like with thosedecisions they weren't easy and
had to just keep coming back andhad to deal with so many little
obstacles along the way.
But it felt like this supremebacking of myself.
I felt like I was coming moreto myself, more of myself, and I
(20:32):
could feel an internal freedomwith all of these decisions.
Because if I just put thelaundry back in the basket and
said all right, I'll try thistomorrow.
Well, I'm just going to be inthe same boat tomorrow and I
still don't have clean clothesand that doesn't feel like the
life that I want to live.
And I am the first one to saylet's go out to dinner or order
(20:52):
in.
I love doing that.
I love spending my money inthat way.
I love food, I love restaurants, but not always.
You know.
There's a time where I reallywant to cook and I want to know
what oils are in my food andwhat ingredients are in my food
and I want to actually make it.
It's nourishing and fulfillingto me to get good ingredients
(21:14):
and to spend the time with myhands in the kitchen making food
and then feeding it to myselfand my partner.
That is really nourishing to me.
And so sometimes there areobstacles.
You just have to ask yourselfwhat do I really want here, what
would be the most nourishingthing and what do I have the
(21:34):
capacity for today?
And there's really no right orwrong.
If I had gone out to dinnerthat night, then great, so be it
, you know.
But it felt really good to backmyself in that way.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
I love how you backed yourself and I love how you
were honest.
I don't know if all thelisteners know yet, but you
actually are a really good cookand you're a mom, so you were
cooking for two well, for yourbabies, in addition to your
whole family.
For many, many years I've seenBrenda cook.
She can whip something up superfast and it's really delicious.
And I think for moms who cookwell, it's probably like oh, I
(22:10):
just really miss my own food.
I do a really good job, right,and maybe there are flavors that
bring you comfort or that youknow exactly what's going to
feel good to your body and youcan nourish yourself in just the
right way.
And I think it's so honest andin that honesty, when you can
say to yourself I would love tohave someone cook for me and I'm
(22:35):
really sort of missing doingthat for myself, being in the
kitchen, hands in the food,knowing exactly what soils, what
oils are going into my food.
What I'm cooking with is aplace of really honoring
yourself and takingresponsibility.
But it doesn't feel likefreedom in the in the forefront.
It feels like freedom at theother side, like in the front
(22:56):
end.
It feels like, ah, there's allthis to do.
I wish I had a little minion orbutler right To give it to me
exactly how I wanted it, but youstill wouldn't have the
sensations that come from youbeing in there with your own
hands.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Totally, and it feels really good to move through
obstacles.
We don't always want things tobe smooth and easy.
I mean, we say that my word ofthe year is ease and I would
love things to be smooth andeasy.
But let me say it a differentway that's just not how life is.
Life just isn't smooth and easyall the time.
(23:36):
I can ask my higher power forit to be smooth and easy, but
there is generally a rub in lifeand that's where we get to meet
ourself.
We get to meet ourself, we getto see what we're made of, we
get to back ourselves, we get towork through obstacles and do
hard shit and that builds ourself-esteem to do hard things
(24:01):
and it grows us and it makes usresilient.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I know, I know I get that doing the hard things give
us self-esteem and just how Ididn't want to do it when I was
a little kid.
Often I don't want to do it asan adult either, like I don't
want to clean my room and Idon't want to brush my teeth and
I don't want to do all thethings, especially if I'm tired.
(24:23):
But it does give me theself-esteem on the other side.
It does have me feel, oh, I'vegot this, I've got me, like I
can easily either order out orcook it exactly how I want it
and feel better about myself onthe other side, not because I'm
feeling bad about myself rightthis moment, but understanding
(24:46):
that there's an impact based onmy decision as to how I want to
deal with this.
So do I want to face it fronton, head on straight, just
handle it, or do I want to sortof pass the buck and deal with
it in a different way?
There's a cost to giving it up.
(25:08):
There's a cost to giving myresponsibility to someone else,
becoming potentially evendependent on expecting other
people to show up for me in aspecific way so that I could be
okay or so I could feel safe orso I could feel taken care of.
Outsourcing all of that takes atoll on us in the long run.
(25:31):
I remember a time when I was inthis relationship this is like
many years back and he used tocook and do all the shopping and
one day after we had broken up,I walked into the supermarket
and I felt like an alien.
I was like I don't even rememberwhere all the things are in the
supermarket.
It had been that long.
(25:53):
It was really nice to havesomeone handle all those pieces
for me, but I don't know howgood it feels to feel that alien
in your own life after givingit to someone else to handle for
so long.
So I'd like to ask you, brendaand I'm going to ask myself the
(26:16):
same question here Like where inmy life right now do I notice
that I'm not actually free?
So I'll start and I'll sharethat.
I think it's around content.
The content takes me a longtime to write, takes me a long
time to sit with.
I feel like I become thislittle child.
That's like I don't know.
I don't know.
(26:37):
I don't know what I want to say, I don't know what I want to
share.
There's this like flailing partof me that just doesn't like it.
I could list all the reasons,but they're just reasons that or
excuses, or stories that I'mgiving to myself.
(26:57):
But basically it'suncomfortable and I've been
chipping away at it little bylittle for a while now I don't
even want to say how longbecause it's embarrassing, but I
should.
It's been a few years.
It's not like a few months or afew days.
It's been a few years.
It's not like a few months or afew days, it's been a few years
.
When I stay present with itinstead of escaping or not doing
(27:18):
it.
It's uncomfortable and it doesrequire me to be with the scared
part of me that doesn't evenknow why it's scared.
Or now I'm talking about partswork right, but maybe the little
one in me that's scared anddoesn't want to be visible, or
(27:39):
the part of me that's maybe myteenager and just my teenager
wants relief.
Our teenagers definitely don'twant to do any work.
The teenagers just want to be,and it's time for me to just be,
with the discomfort of it all,all my little ones screaming at
(28:02):
the top of their lungs that theyneed their needs to be met, and
this is uncomfortable and wedon't want to do it.
But I know in my mind, in mygrown-up mind, that the only way
I'll be really free from thisnot wanting to or not being
comfortable putting out contentis getting better at it.
(28:22):
That's where the true freedomis.
But when we think about falsefreedom, potentially it would be
to give it to somebody else todo, somebody else to manage,
hire an online business manager,or hire a virtual assistant,
somebody else that just does itfor me, but the result would
(28:43):
happen like the content would becreated, but I wouldn't have
built the resilience and thefreedom from it, and that's
really what I'm looking for.
So life is interesting likethat right, like we think we
want.
The result in this case wouldbe the ability to post, let's
say, easily, in all areas.
I say in all areas because Ilove my podcast, like I love our
(29:03):
podcast.
This, to me, is my favoritething of all time, but I have to
be in the trenches to get there.
What about you?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
I have to be in the trenches to get there.
What about you?
That's such a great example andI want to reflect back your
word of the year.
Since I mentioned my word ofthe year was ease.
Your word of the year is skills.
For some reason, I want tospell that with a Z at the end.
Make it more fun.
But your word of the year isskills and you want to learn how
(29:36):
to do these things and that'swhat you're focusing on this
year and that's quite beautiful.
So I don't think that you wantto just give, give it to
somebody else or pay somebodyelse.
You're you're in the trenchessaying I want to learn how to do
these things, like you'rereally backing yourself in that
way, really backing yourself inthat way.
Okay, so for me these are sovulnerable.
(29:58):
To admit this question of whereare you not fully free?
For me, it's in my energy, likehaving physical energy.
As listeners may know, I was ona four and a half month
cross-country road trip.
I've been back for almost twomonths.
(30:18):
Inside of that time, I moved, Iworked at retreat.
That was quite difficult andI've been setting up a new space
.
I've been setting up thestructure of my new space.
So when I came back from thetrip.
It's not like I came home andhad the soft place to land.
I came back to an empty spacewith like piles of boxes and
(30:39):
bags, and I've been workingevery single day to build the
structure of my new space formyself create, organize it, just
make it so I can live in it.
And it's taken an enormous tollon my energy.
Like not having my home set upfor myself, oh my God.
(31:02):
Like moving is really one ofthe biggest stressors, and
especially after such a longtrip not having that, and so my
energy has really taken a toll.
It's just the physical part ofmoving things around, plus the
mental piece of figuring thingsout.
(31:24):
How do I want to organize thisspace.
It's just made me exhausted,and so I've been backing myself
by working on it every day,doing something, unpacking
something, organizing something,ordering something that's
needed every day.
(31:44):
And when I say work on my roomevery day, sometimes that
actually means I have to laydown and rest.
Sometimes that's actuallywhat's needed, and sometimes
it's just been crying becauseI'm just tired or taking a bath.
All of those things have goneinto it and I just haven't had a
lot of extra energy, so I'vebeen working on my business in
(32:07):
the background.
I work on our podcast.
Those are my priorities.
My family is my priority aswell, and I just haven't had any
extra energy for anything else.
I haven't wanted to do anythingreally big socially and I feel
like that's not a place that I'mfully free.
I would love to feel more freeto go and do this and go and do
(32:29):
that and go to this show.
I haven't wanted to do itbecause it's just been
exhausting to me.
So and it is, it's confrontingand it's uncomfortable, because
I want to see certain peoplemore often that I'm actually
able to do right now.
And I also do want to reportthat I felt a really big change
(32:52):
in the last week.
I think, like all the restingand the, my room is pretty much
set up now.
I've rebuilt my energy workingon it, and so I actually went to
the city the other day and hadbrunch with my little sister,
and I was so happy that I hadthe energy to do that, and so
(33:16):
that's just something that I'mworking on, and my goal also was
I want to finish this up in themonth of May and I want to take
June off from setting up myspace and just give myself a
break and just enjoy life moreand do more things and have more
freedom to fill my own cup indifferent ways.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I think that we've given listeners great examples,
because originally, when I firststarted talking about this
episode, I was talking about,like you know, vacations or
shopping, scrolling, binging,potentially drinking sex, those
sort of escapes and we landed ata place where I was talking
(34:00):
about content.
You were talking about yourroom, where there are places
where we're not really free.
We're not really free to chooseor not choose.
You're not really free to notdo your room because you want
the result of enjoying yourspace and I'm not really free to
not do your room because youwant the result of enjoying your
space and I'm not really freeto not do the content because
I'm not at a place where I couldtake it or leave it.
Like I'm not fluent in thatlanguage yet, and that's where
(34:25):
our opportunity lies.
Like where is it that we don'thave full choice, right?
Like where is it that we'regripping in some way to comfort?
So I'll ask listeners like whatare your favorite escape routes
and what is that route that'sprotecting you from?
(34:47):
So if it's drinking or binging,or scrolling or shopping, why
do you feel the need to do that?
And that's so you could writein about it.
It's drinking or binging, orscrolling, or shopping.
Why do you feel the need to dothat?
Not so you could write in aboutit although I'd love to listen,
I'm sure, brenda, and I wouldlove to be part of this for you
(35:07):
but more for you to feel into.
What is that for yourself, andwhat would freedom in that area
feel like in your body, in yourrelationships, in your
day-to-day life?
For me, freedom would feel likeoh, it doesn't take me that
long to write anymore.
Oh, it doesn't take me thatlong to figure this out.
I can batch, I can havesomething stocked.
(35:28):
That would feel really great.
For me, it would feel like tonsof freedom and space in my body
.
How about you, brenda?
What are we thinking you'regoing to feel like in June, when
your space is all set up andyou don't have to like escape
from fixing it?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Oh my God, cue the dance music right now.
Yeah, it's just going to feelgreat, and it just already feels
great.
We had someone come in and laythe carpet this morning, amen,
and now I could just breathe andrest and let it be for a little
bit.
It just had to get done and Ijust want to say how
uncomfortable it is that it'sjust taking so long.
(36:06):
Like I just want it done likethat, and certain things, you
know, I did move along quicklyand other things just took a
long time Because my energy justwasn't there.
So it was really uncomfortable.
So it's gonna feel great.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
I love that you brought that in, because the
truth is, we don't know how longsomething's going to take.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Things will take much longer than we think.
I mean, isn't that the rule?
Something will take three timeslonger than you planned, or
three times as much money.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Potentially, yes, I mean, I love the 3X idea.
I also think that we could sayto ourselves oh my God, I can't
believe this took so long to getto the freedom side of it,
because we're not really lookingat where the resistance was and
(37:01):
what the cost of thatresistance, or the cost of that
procrastination, or all thetimes that we gave into the
story where we didn't want to beuncomfortable, where we didn't
want to learn to scale ortraverse the space that was
necessary in order for us to getto the other side.
And if you're listening, I wantto encourage you that this is
not your time to beat yourselfup.
This is not.
(37:23):
We are approaching where we'restuck and where we're not free
predominantly with curiosity.
Not shame, just curiosity.
We can sort of scan our livesand see where am I trying to
escape and can I come back topresence.
Instead, let us know how thisepisode landed for you.
(37:44):
Share it, review our instagramor even go on apple podcast,
write a review, send us ascreenshot until next time.
Bye for now.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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