June 18, 2025 • 40 mins
What happens when life feels like an all-you-can-eat buffet of desires? When every opportunity feels irresistible and you want it all—right now?
In this episode, Brenda and Catherine dive into the emotional terrain of competing desires and the tough choices we must make when we can't have everything at once. They explore what it means to move through life’s “candy store” with discernment, drawing from personal stories and hard-earned wisdom.
Brenda shares a powerful, vulnerable account of her divorce—a soul-driven choice that led to emotional upheaval, financial strain, and years of shame before she found her way back to self-compassion. Her story reveals a deeper truth: desire isn’t always about gratification—it’s about alignment, honesty, and growth.
Through real-life examples around homes, money, and relationships, this conversation invites listeners to look honestly at what they want, what it costs, and what they’re truly willing to choose.
Whether you're overwhelmed by too many options, sitting with regret, or struggling to prioritize your desires, this episode offers something grounding: permission to be human, imperfect, and compassionate with yourself as you learn.
As Brenda says, "You can't do it wrong... whatever decision you make brings you to the next place."
In this episode, we explore:
- Life as a candy store or buffet of endless tempting choices
- Not everything we want is possible—or meant for us—all at once
- Desire requires making honest choices and accepting the costs
- Being a full YES means owning the consequences of your decisions
- Financial tradeoffs between dream homes and meaningful experiences
- Hidden costs of desires often only reveal themselves later
- Brenda’s vulnerable story of divorce and its unexpected aftermath
- The power of deep honesty with self and others
- Finding compassion when choices lead to messy outcomes
- The three core arenas of desire: health, wealth, and relationships
- There’s no wrong choice—every step leads to the next learning
💬 Share your reflections with us on Instagram @desireismedicinepodcast.
How did you like this episode? Tell us everything, we'd love to hear from you.
If you'd like to learn more about 1:1 or group coaching with Brenda or Catherine message them and book a Sales Call to learn more.
Email:
desireasmedicine@gmail.com
goddessbrenda24@gmail.com
catherine@catherinenavarro.com
Instagram:
@desireasmedicinepodcast
@Brenda_Fredericks
@CoachCatherineN
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back listeners.
Brenda so excited to be here,taking that deep sigh because
(01:35):
today's a doozy oh yeah, we arethe Desire as Medicine podcast.
Girlies, this is what we do.
Talk about it from our littlegirls, our teenage girls Now
we're in our women Definitely,both titter tottering on our
(02:00):
crone over here.
And one thing that comes up whenwe talk about desire everybody
wants what they want.
Like who doesn't want what theywant?
None of us want to not get ourdesires.
Like, there's such an achethere, like, ouch, I didn't get
(02:22):
what I wanted.
And there is a differencebetween clamping down, gripping
to get what you want and beinglet down.
There is like an act ofsurrender as well.
Like these things are true, buttoday we're going to talk about
not just what happens when wedon't get what we want.
(02:44):
But today we're going to talkabout not just what happens when
we don't get what we want.
We're not just going to talkabout how that feels or how many
times we try to protectourselves from disappointment.
Today, we're going to talk aboutwhat it feels like to be
walking through life like alittle kid in the candy store
(03:06):
where you just want every singlecandy and then, just like the
little kid that ate all thecandy you want, to vomit they're
at Halloween.
There is a place where andBrenda and I have talked about
what this feels like I'm notsure if you listeners, family,
friends, have been there, butcan you feel into a time when
you just gave yourselfeverything you wanted?
(03:27):
Maybe it was that everythingyou wanted to buy, you bought.
Or every vacation you wanted totake, you took.
Or every time somebody had aparty, you said yes.
Or every time there was a party, you said yes.
All the places where we justwent really into excess, because
we used to say to ourselveswell, I desire it, I want it.
(03:48):
Like, clearly, it's for me, I'msupposed to follow my desire.
Desire shapes and grows me LikeI'm supposed to lean into it.
Let's talk today, ladies andgentlemen, about choice, about
being an adult, about walkingthrough life, and if we're
(04:11):
really just looking at desire,life itself is a big old candy
store, right, brenda?
But how hard would it be tobuild if you're just walking
through life like it's a candystore the candy store of life.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I love it.
It's like a buffet.
I think about a buffet wherethere's just everything there
and it's endless.
I mean, life is like that.
Right, there's always things towant.
I think life is set up where,especially nowadays, where we
see everything that everybodyelse has and we have more
choices than ever, right, evenas women, there's so many
(04:47):
choices that we have.
It can be really exciting.
There's so many things to wantand have, things beyond our
wildest dreams, and also thingsthat our mothers and our
grandmothers and the womenbefore us couldn't have or dream
about is accessible to us today.
And just like going into the CVSand you want to buy toothpaste
(05:12):
and your mind goes buggly,buggly, buggly because there's
8,000 kinds of toothpaste, itcould be really confusing, and
desire could be confusing too.
It could be really confusing,and desire could be confusing
too.
And not everything is for us,and not everything we want are
(05:34):
things that we're going to have.
And I think that we need tothink that we do need to
prioritize in a way.
You can't go after everythingall at once.
I mean, can you have everythingin your life that you want?
Sure, but you still do have tobuild it one brick at a time.
(05:54):
Maybe you want the relationshipof your dreams, or the house of
your dreams, or the business ofyour dreams, or the friendships
of your dreams, whatever it is.
Those things take time to buildand they do get built, layer by
layer.
They don't all come at once andwe're just not going to have
everything we want.
And I think that's the beautyof desire and the tragedy of
(06:18):
desire, because it can be reallydevastating to not get what we
want.
And I think this is one of themost juicy topics to talk about,
with desire going after ourdesires with no guarantee that
we're ever going to get it.
Why would we do that?
Why would we do that?
(06:42):
Why would we go after somethingand put our energy or our
resources into something wherethere's no guarantee?
But we do it, we do it everyday, we just show up.
I think it's our human natureto go after what we want in that
way, and it can be exciting anddisappointing For sure.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It is exciting and disappointing.
I want to see if I could find away.
And it can be exciting anddisappointing, for sure it is
exciting and disappointing.
I want to see if I could find away.
Well, maybe we'll start here.
Like when we have a desire andit goes unmet, right, there's
grief, for sure it's sad whenyou don't get the candy you
wanted, you wanted it's sad.
(07:29):
Sometimes there's rage,sometimes there's shame, like
why can't I have what I want?
That sort of.
Or there's tightness.
Sometimes we say, oh, I didn'twant it anyway, we kind of
bypass it or numb it out, and soit's tough to be with that when
you don't get what you want.
But what about when you want somany things and you could
potentially do it or not do it?
(07:50):
That's when it becomes evenstickier.
So sometimes we have a desire,we want to clamp on it, we want
to tighten it, control, right,we want to have it, no matter
what.
We don't want to be let down,we don't want to be hurt or
disappointed.
Sometimes, when we clamp down,we think that if we just hold on
(08:11):
really tight, we'll get it, orif we just continue to willpower
it through, we'll have it, andputting that down can be so
vulnerable and terrifying, but,at the same time, just what we
need.
And there's another thing thatwe need, which is to think about
(08:35):
what kind of life we want.
What do those relationshipslook like in the life that we
want?
Because we're constantly makingdecisions Like do I want to
have dessert all day?
Well, yeah, I want that.
Would I actually feel good if Igave it to myself?
Well, probably not.
I'd probably be like up anddown sugary all day, from sugar
(08:55):
highs and lows, and after awhile of eating like that, I
probably wouldn't feel good.
I'd probably be craving a greenjuice, like sunlight, right.
But that's an example of placeswhere it's not really we know
somewhere inside of us.
This isn't really a maturething to do, to buy this bag in
(09:16):
all the different colors or tobinge in this way, and so I want
us to kind of talk about that,brenda, when we have conflicting
desires and wants.
But we have to sort of choose,we can't just go all in into
things.
Do you have something that youwant to bring in as an example?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
with decisions, decisions, decisions.
We get invitations all the timeinvitations for to do this or
to do that, to do this course,to go on that vacation, whatever
it is, to go to this brunch andI do subscribe to the belief
that you can't do it wrong.
Whatever decision you make, itwrong, whatever decision you
make, it brings you to the nextplace and the next decision.
(10:08):
Honestly, that feels like maybeit's obvious to everybody, but
that took me a long time toreally understand.
I spent a lot of time beingstuck.
I was so afraid of making adecision that I didn't make any
decision and that's okay too,because there's things to learn.
In the place of being stuck, Iwas just so afraid.
(10:30):
And then I heard that advice oh, you just make a decision and
it brings you to the next placeand the next decision and you
can change course at any time.
You really can.
Even if you think you can't,you can.
I mean, I think the greatexample of that is somebody
who's getting married and theinvitations are sent and
(10:51):
everything's all set in stoneand everyone RSVP'd and you put
money down and then you realize,oh my God, I don't want to get
married to this person.
What do you do, do you gothrough with it or do you change
course, and so there's no rightor wrong.
Maybe there's a better decision, maybe there's an easier one,
(11:12):
maybe there's one that has lesscost involved and I mean all
kinds of costs, not just money,but like the toll it takes on
you and your life.
So I don't think that you canmake a wrong decision, because
if we're saying in adesire-based life, that desire
calls us to something greater inourselves and we're here on a
journey to learn and to grow assouls, then everything we're
(11:37):
doing, we're learning along theway, and that just brings us to
a better place for our nextdecision.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I'm thinking about Dave Ramsey.
I don't know why he popped intomy head, but I think financial
desires.
It's so much easier to pointthis lesson in financial desires
, like some people will say well, I want my dream house, like, I
want this house and it's thissquare footage and this is what
(12:06):
it looks like and this is whatwe can afford.
But potentially, that houseisn't 30% of that person's
income allocation, it's a littlehigher, which means that it
changes things as in maybe youdon't have the same amount of
vacations If you are.
(12:27):
If your debt to income ratio isreally tight, then you don't
get to do other things.
In comparison to, let's say, ifyou did not buy the house and
you rented, maybe the rentinstead of the mortgage and
taxes would be less.
Or maybe you get a smallerhouse, something that isn't
quite as beautiful, but itallows you enough income so that
you can travel or so that you.
(12:49):
You know, houses have unexpectedexpenses.
It's not, they're not reallyasset building.
It's sort of something that wedo.
If that's something that wewant, but we don't have to,
there are other choices, and oneof the things that comes into
making that choice is how muchmoney do I have left over and
with the money that's left over,do I get to still live the kind
(13:11):
of life that I want to live, ordo I have to forego vacations,
forego parties, forego all theseother things, because I made
this lifestyle choice?
And so that's kind of what Imean when I point to.
You know, if you're a littlekid in the candy store, you're
going to be like well, why can'tI have the biggest house?
I can afford it, why can't Ialso have all the vacations that
(13:34):
I want?
It's like well, I want to eatwhatever I want to and not gain
a pound, like there's a lot ofthings that I would like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's a good one.
Well, I think we have to askourselves what we really want in
life.
What do you mostly want?
If you, if you, want a reallybig house and you're okay with
no vacations, not buying newclothes for a few years, having
an older car, if that, whateveryour situation is, then great,
(14:04):
but be a full yes to thatexperience, right?
If you're not a full yes tothat, then maybe you do want to
buy the smaller house becauseyou're like I don't really want
to give up my vacations and Ialso really want to lease that
car.
You know, if we're in reality,then we're looking at these
things with clear eyes andsaying what is actually in range
(14:27):
for me, what can I really haveand what kind of life do I want
to live?
I know people who don't mindgoing into debt and they have a
ton of debt and they're alwayspaying their debt and they're
very happy do that at all.
They don't want to go into anydebt at all.
They want to live completely intheir means.
Well, there's no right or wrongand in this world you can have
(14:48):
it however you want, like BurgerKing.
But you do need to ask yourselfwhat do you want?
What is your value, how do youwant to live and how are you
going to feel free and spaciousso you can enjoy your life?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So I'm hearing you talk about the logistics of you
have a life, you have choices,you have different desires and
you get to choose your desiresand be a full yes, as you say,
and I want to point to that whenwe are a full yes to something,
we know the consequences.
(15:23):
So if I choose the house whereI can't go on vacations, then I
can't be victimized because I'mnot going on vacation and be mad
at the house or mad at mydesire for the house because it
wasn't my desire's fault.
I'm the one that said yes, I'mthe one that signed the mortgage
deal, I'm the one that signedthe lease or signed the contract
(15:45):
to get into that.
I think that's where we kind ofget tripped up Like, oh, I
wanted this, it was within mydesire, it was my desire.
Clearly, my desire isn't badand Brenda's saying there are no
wrong choices, but we do wantto make clear choices, like
choices and being clarity.
If I choose this house, that'ssomewhat very it's within my
(16:08):
means, but it's sort of at thetop tier I won't be able to do
these other things that I enjoyand am I okay with that?
Right?
Also, if I were to go to an IvyLeague college.
I really want to have an IvyLeague experience, but I'm
taking something I don't knowarts and crafts.
I'm going to say I'm takingsome kind of liberal arts degree
(16:28):
and there's no guarantee thatI'll be able to make up the
income that I'm going to spendon this Ivy League.
That has to be a choice,because then school loans
potentially, or my savings gointo that purchase right, Not
being victimized by what wedecide.
Being clear, I'm choosing thisbecause of X.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And I want to say that can also be a bitch,
because you can go into it eyeswide open, making a clear choice
.
Let's just say the houseexample I'm going to buy this
house and I'm not going to beable to go on vacation for
probably several years.
You can be a yes to that, butthen you might be in it and you
might be like, oh shit, what didI do?
(17:10):
I really want to go on thatvacation.
Now, damn it, I can't go.
I'm really cursing a lot overhere.
Then what In those cases?
And I've had those experiencesthat's where I just have to
notice what's coming up for meand deal with whatever feelings
come up.
Maybe there is somedisappointment, maybe there is
some frustration, maybe youreally wish you could go on a
(17:35):
vacation and you really reallywish that you could, and you
know you can't.
But there's some feelings there.
We're not saying don't feelyour feelings, and once you make
a decision then you can't goback right.
Your decisions and your desiresbring you somewhere and it's
all an invitation to grow.
So have your feelings about it.
If that's what comes up for you, be honest with them.
I think that's freedom, yes, andyou can have both.
(17:58):
You could say oh, I made thisdecision and now I'm in this
boat and oh, I really don't likeit.
This is a hard boat to be in.
This is a hard boat to be in,but this is the boat that I'm in
.
I chose it not in a punishingway, but in a oh.
This is where I am right now,and what do I need now to move
(18:20):
forward?
What do I need now?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, what do I need now to move forward?
If, for some reason, I'm sad bythe choice that I made, or I'm
disappointed that I made thischoice and I really wasn't clear
on the cost, that's somethingelse.
I guess a different way oflooking at this is that there's
a cost in going for our desires,not just the cost of being
(18:44):
disappointed, that you go forsomething and it's potentially
not there.
You don't have it for somethingand it's potentially not there.
You don't have it, but there'sa cost to getting it.
So maybe for the house example,it means that you have to not
go on certain vacations so thatyou can save for the down
payment for the house.
Or the food example is if youwant your body to look a
(19:05):
particular way and caloriereduction is one way of doing it
, then you can't have thedessert all day long.
Or if you've decided you'regoing to be sober because you
don't want to be a drinkeranymore, then the cost is well,
you can't really have liquoranymore.
There are certain costs thatare sometimes they're hidden
(19:26):
costs in our desires that wedon't think about prior to.
We're often like am I willingto do the thing that it takes to
get there?
We don't ask ourselves whatdoes it cost me, like?
What are the invisible coststhat I don't see, in order for
me to get over there, andsometimes those costs feel high.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
They are high.
They can be high, let me put itthis way and they're not always
something that you cananticipate.
They can be high, let me put itthis way, and they're not
always something that you cananticipate.
You do not know.
And that's, like I said before,the beauty and the tragedy, the
humanness of following desire,like having the courage to
actually follow your desireinstead of living a life.
(20:09):
It may be an obligation orexpectation, a smaller life, but
if you want to follow thecalling of your soul, whatever
that might be, it's not going toalways make sense and you might
get to the other side of yourdesire and say, oh my God, it
did not bargain for this.
It did not bargain for this.
I'll give you a really bigexample this.
I'll give you a really bigexample Divorce.
(20:32):
We were married for a long time.
It took me a long time todecide.
I was not happy, we could notwork it out and I just couldn't
get it out of my head Like itkept coming, this tap on the
shoulder and I felt like this iswhat I needed to do.
I'm going to make a really longstory short.
We got a separation, we got adivorce.
(20:54):
I did not know the cost ofdivorce.
It has been quite high.
It's been financially difficult, it's been emotionally
difficult.
There was a cost with mychildren and my family.
There was a cost with mychildren and my family.
Divorce is devastating and I hadno idea of that.
(21:21):
There are times where I say,wow, I wish I didn't do that.
And then I'm in that boat,right, and I say, okay, well, I
remember the course of action.
I remember how long it took meto decide.
I remember how hard it was.
I remember how long it took meto decide, or remember how hard
it was and this is what Ieventually chose.
So here I am now, and what am Igoing to do with that?
And I've had to learn some madskills.
(21:41):
I've had to take really deepresponsibility.
And only through getting thedivorce did I really just hit
rock bottom in my life.
Through getting the divorce didI really just hit rock bottom in
my life.
I hit rock bottom where I hadno money left.
I'd given up my career, Ididn't have my relationship, I
didn't have my house, I didn'thave a place to live.
(22:02):
It was devastating and I've hadto find myself.
I've had to dig deep intomyself and my soul and my
resilience to rebuild andrecreate myself and clean up all
the mess and hold space for mychildren at the time.
(22:24):
They're older now, in theirdifficulty.
And that was really hard, muchharder than I ever bargained.
For If somebody had told mewell, people probably did, but
of course I didn't listen.
But if I had known what thatwould have been like, I may have
made a different choice.
(22:45):
But that's not the way lifeworks and you can't have an
embodied understanding ofsomething unless you actually go
through it.
So now I have this embodiedunderstanding of how difficult
that decision was, but also it'sperfect.
It's like beautifully perfect,because I've had to learn so
(23:05):
much and I've had to grow somuch and I've learned to be
financially responsible.
I wasn't before, I was justspending money, spending money
retail therapy you know.
There's a million examples Icould give you of how I've
learned and grown through thisdecision that eventually brought
(23:26):
me to rock bottom.
And here I am today.
I wouldn't be here today had Inot made that decision.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Do you have an idea of what you would have done
differently?
When you say, oh, you know,sometimes I think back and I'm
like I could have done thatdifferently.
But when I ask you this, thecaveat is like you have to think
about all the things that youdidn't like it, all the reasons
why you wanted to get a divorce,like what would the cost have
(23:56):
been to stay?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
yeah, I mean I really didn't.
I don't think I really had theskills for that at the time.
I think I went as far as Icould.
I was in a place of blame whereI just blamed him for
everything and I was.
I had the belief at the timethat if I was not in this
relationship I wouldn't behaving these problems Right.
(24:21):
So, I quote, got rid of mypartner.
I hate that language, butthat's just came to mind.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And I'll even do a caveat of like is that just part
of speech?
Like something that we say likeoh, if I knew that it would be
this hard, if I knew of all thecosts, like I would do it
differently.
It's something that we say butthat when we think back it's
like was there really a way todo it differently?
(24:51):
Yeah, I don't like was therereally a way to do it?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
differently.
Yeah, I don't think there was away for me to do it differently
.
If there was, I would have doneit.
I really think my soul wascalling me to something
different.
I don't particularly like that,to be honest.
I don't like that.
My family was broken up and itwas hard for my kids and my kids
didn't have their mom and dadin their house anymore and I
(25:14):
lost my house.
My human doesn't really enjoythat.
That happened.
My soul, she is thrilled.
My soul is having a partybecause I've really learned and
grown on this journey.
So I don't think I could havedone it differently.
But what would I have donedifferently?
(25:34):
I think, been really honest.
I think I would have had to bereally honest with myself and
with him, and I honestly did notknow how to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So are we talking about like really honest
conversations?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Really honest conversations, of being in the
messy, I think, something that Ihave a lot of skill in now.
I have a lot of skill andpractice now in the gray.
I'm really good in the gray andI've gotten here because I
didn't have any idea what grayeven meant years ago.
(26:13):
I didn't know how to say thisis what's coming up for me,
these are my feelings, and Idon't know what to do about it.
And share it with my partnerand hold the high sensation of
his reaction, because I was verymuch in a pattern of enabling
(26:39):
him.
We both bought into that patternand so I was more interested in
keeping the peace and keepingthings at a status quo of no
conflict than I was of beingwith the truth, and his
reactions made me reallyuncomfortable.
(27:01):
It was really just hisemotional reactions.
He was uncomfortable, he gotanxious, he put pressure on me
let's resolve this, let's workthis out and I needed space and
time and it took me a long timeto learn how to ask for that.
But mostly I was mostlyinvested in control, changing my
(27:26):
truth or lying, so I wouldn'thave to see him uncomfortable
and I wouldn't have to have thediscomfort in my body of his
discomfort, because when he wasanxious or uncomfortable I would
become unstable, and so Ididn't put truth first, because
(27:50):
I didn't have that skill.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And so I didn't put truth first because I didn't
have that skill.
I hear you.
It's so true, though it's souncomfortable to have honest
conversations with someone.
That's going to have some kindof emotional reaction.
That's a podcast in itself.
I can't wait to record that onewith you.
But I want to go back and justsay like we touched something
right now.
I think it's really importantfor listeners to hear you,
(28:16):
especially in your story anddescribing it.
You're like wow, if I justwould have known how hard it was
.
You know, I didn't want to putmy family through that Like I
wish I could have done itdifferently.
I think a lot of us can livethere, and then when we take a
pause to really be like well,what would that logistically
(28:37):
look like with the person that Iwas then?
And it's like oh, wow, theskills I needed.
I didn't have to do itdifferently, and that's painful,
or it can be.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It's so painful.
It's so painful it really is.
This is like I'm opening upthis spot here.
This is like one of my deepestspots.
It's so painful and the cost ofmy decisions were huge and I
(29:14):
beat myself up for many, manyyears because I felt like I hurt
the people that I loved themost and that was devastating to
me.
And I was in a shame hole foryears about this.
And when I was in a shame holeI had no money because I was
(29:34):
just in this bottom.
And only until I was willing toactually look at the cost and
the impact of my decision and bewith that honestly was the only
way that I was able to get outof that hole, was the only way
(29:54):
that I was able to get out ofthat hole.
And what I've learned from allof that?
Well, I've learned deepresponsibility, deep humility
for my human who made a decision, made a mess, hurt people that
I loved, hurt myself.
I made it really hard formyself and to own that and to
(30:16):
not collapse in it.
I mean, I spent years collapsedin shame around it but to
finally and it took me yearshave a spine where I was able to
say this is what I did and thisis the impact and I'm sorry
even to myself and what I'velearned through that is probably
(30:39):
one of the biggest lessons thatI've ever learned in my life,
which is compassion andself-love.
(31:02):
We did a whole self-love seriesand I've had to find the
gumption to love myself and havecompassion for myself in really
difficult spots.
I would be up at night, nightafter night after night, in
regret and shame and playing itout in different ways in my mind
, as if all of that worry andanxiety would have changed one
(31:23):
thing no, we can't go back andchange the past, and it took me
a long time to learn how toactually be with it.
And I have so much compassionfor myself now because I'm in
the boat of oh, I don't reallylike how that went, but this is
how it went.
These are the consequences, andI love and accept myself fully,
(31:49):
even though it's reallyuncomfortable and really sad.
And I didn't have the skillsback then and I had to go
through all of that to learnthese skills and it was so messy
and I didn't know any other wayto do it.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Well, yes, I mean, I don't think we know ahead of
time how to be with messy inthis location, and that makes
absolutely 100% complete sense.
I mean, we're talking aboutdesire In this case.
We're talking about desire forseparation, divorce, and then if
(32:29):
you, listener, are swapping outthis desire with something that
you want, what's really neededis honesty, like truth, like
when Brenda thinks back and saysI could have done this
differently.
We don't really come up with away that it could have been
different.
Right, because she needed tobecome the woman she is today in
order to be able to do that ofyesterday, maybe finding a good
(32:51):
mentor that would help youexcavate and be in truth.
But who knows?
We just don't know.
We can speculate and, with myown life experience now, when I
think to myself, oh, I couldhave done that differently, I
actually am starting to err inthe direction that whatever
(33:13):
choice I made was actually thebest choice and, even if there
is chaos and crap that comes outof it that I would have
preferred to not have to livethrough or experience, that
that's actually the best outcome, predominantly because it's one
I know and that I get to see inthis life that it turned out
(33:35):
okay, versus looking back andthinking, oh, I could have done
this differently, it could haveturned out differently, but the
truth is that I don't know Icould have caused more mayhem in
that direction.
There's just no way of knowing.
There's the phrase right, likewe get to have everything we
want, but maybe not all at thesame time.
And so, as a reminder to alllisteners like we have desire,
(34:01):
we don't always get what we want, and sometimes we have
different things that we wantall at the same time.
And, what's most important,when we have conflict and
desires or we're trying to numbourselves or we don't want to
feel the discomfort ofpotentially going after
something and not receiving it,that we be honest with ourselves
.
That honesty is really one ofthe most important components,
(34:25):
the most important ingredientwith desire, because there will
always be something shiny, therewill always be another way, be
another moment to swipe right.
There will be always anothermoment for different 31 flavors
of ice cream, maybe 32.
There will always be more, moreoptions.
And we get to decide.
Am I staying where I'm at?
(34:46):
Am I actually moving towardsand building the life that I say
that I want, or am I choosing adistraction, choosing something
else, even though it's also adesire.
Am I really going for andbacking the thing that I want?
Am I looking to build the lifeof my dreams?
Am I living within my means?
(35:06):
Am I taking care of my body?
Are my relationships okay?
Like when we really narrow itdown, it's really wealth, health
relationships, or healthrelationships, wealth I guess we
could look at it in different,but those are the biggest
(35:27):
markers of our life.
Who are we spending our timewith?
Who do we want to spend ourtime with?
Who are the major relationshipand players that we want in our
life?
Who are we spending our timewith?
Who do we want to spend ourtime with?
Who are the major relationshipand players that we want in our
life?
What kind of income do we wantto have?
How do we want to live?
What kind of body do we want tolive in?
So desire is big and then wenarrow it down in these topics,
(35:50):
these categories of health,wealth, relationship, mostly
because you could have a lot ofproblems, but once you have a
health problem, that's the onlyproblem.
You have Just that healthproblem.
All the other problems go awaybecause it doesn't matter.
It's completely not a non-issue.
Yeah, thank you so much, brenda, for being vulnerable here and
(36:14):
sharing this with myself, withlisteners.
It's really tender to look backat something that we
potentially aren't so proud ofand having to admit that that is
probably the best outcome, evenwith all the fire alarms and
all the things that fell and allthe things that got hurt and
broken along the way.
It's really true.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I think about that too.
Oh, maybe the difficult paththat I had was the best outcome.
We don't really know, which iswhy I really stand behind you
can't do it wrong.
Right, and I love what you said.
Maybe I was just supposed tosee in this lifetime that it
turned out okay, because withall the difficulty it is turning
(36:58):
out okay.
I've had a lot of peace in myheart.
I have the angst too, becausethat peace it just lives inside
of me, but I have a lot of peacein my heart and I've grown so
much and now I walk womenthrough these pieces and that is
really beautiful.
And I want to also be reallyclear that I want to make an
(37:20):
edit from earlier that I didn'tactually have a desire for
divorce.
I had this tap on my shoulderand I had a desire to experience
life.
I had a desire to experiencemyself.
I had a desire to experiencemyself.
I wanted to know myself.
I actually wanted to feeldesire.
You know I was, you knowsuburban mom worked in, you know
(37:43):
all of that and I was like whoam I?
I just felt like there wassomething more.
I wanted to feel my desire andI don't know the path that I
took.
That was not in my relationship, you know it had to end, but
and that that was how Iinterpreted it was oh, I'm
getting a divorce.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I can see that right.
We want a particular life andwe're like, how do we bring this
person with us or how do?
How do we get to do all thosethings and still be suburban mom
?
Like, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Those are hard questions.
They're really hard questions.
I also really want to say thatI believe it's possible.
Like you can take your partnerwith you, I think you can 100%
invite and take your partnerwith you.
I've seen it happen.
It's beautiful.
It was not my path.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I think that's the true statement you can, it's
possible.
And it doesn't turn out thatway for everyone.
Exactly Right, so interesting.
All the places that we talked,all the corners that we went in
conversation today when, inreality, when we first started
recording, the thought was howit feels to not get what you
(38:57):
want, Like that ouch, thatsensation of well you know what,
I don't even want to go for itbecause I'm so afraid of not
having it.
And to get to the gorgeousplaces where we've given some
examples and we're now saying,well, so the gorgeous places
where we've given some examplesand we're now saying, well,
maybe there's no wrong way, butyou do have to be in the game,
going for it.
Like there may not be a wrongway, but there is a way.
(39:25):
Like you have to be on the path, attempting to get there,
otherwise getting there isalmost impossible.
Otherwise getting there isalmost impossible.
And today we also talked aboutfeeling into what life do you
want?
And you may have conflictingdesires.
There may be like shinysyndrome, where you know
everything looks really shinyand you want to say yes to all
the pieces and parts and all thethings.
(39:46):
But if you're looking forenergy and you're saying yes to
everything and you have noenergy.
Well, that's something to lookat, something to ask yourself
where am I saying yes, where Ishould not be saying yes because
I need to honor myself?
Or if you're looking to savefor that house or that car or
that purchase, if you're buyingeverything that's shiny and you
need to be with yourself and askyourself, hey, is this really
(40:06):
helping me reach my desire?
Like, where are we really andare we really honoring and
backing ourselves?
Thank you so much, everyone fortuning in today.
If there was something thatresonated with you deeply,
please let us know.
We'd love to hear from you.
Thank you, bye for now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
Welcome to Desire is Medicine.
We are two very different womenliving a life led by desire,
inviting you into our world.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Brenda.
I'm a devoted practitioner tobeing my fully expressed true
self in my daily life.
Motherhood relationships and mybusiness Desire has taken me on
quite a ride and every day Ipractice listening to and
following the voice within.
I'm a middle school teacherturned coach and guide of the
feminine.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And I'm Catherine, devoted to living my life as the
truest and hopefully thehighest version of me.
I don't have children, I'venever been married.
I've spent equal parts of mylife in corporate as in some
down and low shady spaces.
I was the epitome of tired andwired and my path led me to
explore desire.
I'm a coach, guide, energyworker and a forever student.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Even after decades of inner work, we are humble
beginners on the mat, stillexploring, always curious.
We believe that listening toand following the nudge of
desire is a deep spiritualpractice that helps us grow.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
On the Desires Medicine podcast.
We talk to each other, weinterview people we know and
love about the practice ofdesire, bringing in a very
important piece that is oftenoverlooked being responsible for
our desire.
Welcome back listeners.
Brenda so excited to be here,taking that deep sigh because
(01:35):
today's a doozy oh yeah, we arethe Desire as Medicine podcast.
Girlies, this is what we do.
Talk about it from our littlegirls, our teenage girls Now
we're in our women Definitely,both titter tottering on our
(02:00):
crone over here.
And one thing that comes up whenwe talk about desire everybody
wants what they want.
Like who doesn't want what theywant?
None of us want to not get ourdesires.
Like, there's such an achethere, like, ouch, I didn't get
(02:22):
what I wanted.
And there is a differencebetween clamping down, gripping
to get what you want and beinglet down.
There is like an act ofsurrender as well.
Like these things are true, buttoday we're going to talk about
not just what happens when wedon't get what we want.
(02:44):
But today we're going to talkabout not just what happens when
we don't get what we want.
We're not just going to talkabout how that feels or how many
times we try to protectourselves from disappointment.
Today, we're going to talk aboutwhat it feels like to be
walking through life like alittle kid in the candy store
(03:06):
where you just want every singlecandy and then, just like the
little kid that ate all thecandy you want, to vomit they're
at Halloween.
There is a place where andBrenda and I have talked about
what this feels like I'm notsure if you listeners, family,
friends, have been there, butcan you feel into a time when
you just gave yourselfeverything you wanted?
(03:27):
Maybe it was that everythingyou wanted to buy, you bought.
Or every vacation you wanted totake, you took.
Or every time somebody had aparty, you said yes.
Or every time there was a party, you said yes.
All the places where we justwent really into excess, because
we used to say to ourselveswell, I desire it, I want it.
(03:48):
Like, clearly, it's for me, I'msupposed to follow my desire.
Desire shapes and grows me LikeI'm supposed to lean into it.
Let's talk today, ladies andgentlemen, about choice, about
being an adult, about walkingthrough life, and if we're
(04:11):
really just looking at desire,life itself is a big old candy
store, right, brenda?
But how hard would it be tobuild if you're just walking
through life like it's a candystore the candy store of life.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I love it.
It's like a buffet.
I think about a buffet wherethere's just everything there
and it's endless.
I mean, life is like that.
Right, there's always things towant.
I think life is set up where,especially nowadays, where we
see everything that everybodyelse has and we have more
choices than ever, right, evenas women, there's so many
(04:47):
choices that we have.
It can be really exciting.
There's so many things to wantand have, things beyond our
wildest dreams, and also thingsthat our mothers and our
grandmothers and the womenbefore us couldn't have or dream
about is accessible to us today.
And just like going into the CVSand you want to buy toothpaste
(05:12):
and your mind goes buggly,buggly, buggly because there's
8,000 kinds of toothpaste, itcould be really confusing, and
desire could be confusing too.
It could be really confusing,and desire could be confusing
too.
And not everything is for us,and not everything we want are
(05:34):
things that we're going to have.
And I think that we need tothink that we do need to
prioritize in a way.
You can't go after everythingall at once.
I mean, can you have everythingin your life that you want?
Sure, but you still do have tobuild it one brick at a time.
(05:54):
Maybe you want the relationshipof your dreams, or the house of
your dreams, or the business ofyour dreams, or the friendships
of your dreams, whatever it is.
Those things take time to buildand they do get built, layer by
layer.
They don't all come at once andwe're just not going to have
everything we want.
And I think that's the beautyof desire and the tragedy of
(06:18):
desire, because it can be reallydevastating to not get what we
want.
And I think this is one of themost juicy topics to talk about,
with desire going after ourdesires with no guarantee that
we're ever going to get it.
Why would we do that?
Why would we do that?
(06:42):
Why would we go after somethingand put our energy or our
resources into something wherethere's no guarantee?
But we do it, we do it everyday, we just show up.
I think it's our human natureto go after what we want in that
way, and it can be exciting anddisappointing For sure.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It is exciting and disappointing.
I want to see if I could find away.
And it can be exciting anddisappointing, for sure it is
exciting and disappointing.
I want to see if I could find away.
Well, maybe we'll start here.
Like when we have a desire andit goes unmet, right, there's
grief, for sure it's sad whenyou don't get the candy you
wanted, you wanted it's sad.
(07:29):
Sometimes there's rage,sometimes there's shame, like
why can't I have what I want?
That sort of.
Or there's tightness.
Sometimes we say, oh, I didn'twant it anyway, we kind of
bypass it or numb it out, and soit's tough to be with that when
you don't get what you want.
But what about when you want somany things and you could
potentially do it or not do it?
(07:50):
That's when it becomes evenstickier.
So sometimes we have a desire,we want to clamp on it, we want
to tighten it, control, right,we want to have it, no matter
what.
We don't want to be let down,we don't want to be hurt or
disappointed.
Sometimes, when we clamp down,we think that if we just hold on
(08:11):
really tight, we'll get it, orif we just continue to willpower
it through, we'll have it, andputting that down can be so
vulnerable and terrifying, but,at the same time, just what we
need.
And there's another thing thatwe need, which is to think about
(08:35):
what kind of life we want.
What do those relationshipslook like in the life that we
want?
Because we're constantly makingdecisions Like do I want to
have dessert all day?
Well, yeah, I want that.
Would I actually feel good if Igave it to myself?
Well, probably not.
I'd probably be like up anddown sugary all day, from sugar
(08:55):
highs and lows, and after awhile of eating like that, I
probably wouldn't feel good.
I'd probably be craving a greenjuice, like sunlight, right.
But that's an example of placeswhere it's not really we know
somewhere inside of us.
This isn't really a maturething to do, to buy this bag in
(09:16):
all the different colors or tobinge in this way, and so I want
us to kind of talk about that,brenda, when we have conflicting
desires and wants.
But we have to sort of choose,we can't just go all in into
things.
Do you have something that youwant to bring in as an example?
Speaker 2 (09:47):
with decisions, decisions, decisions.
We get invitations all the timeinvitations for to do this or
to do that, to do this course,to go on that vacation, whatever
it is, to go to this brunch andI do subscribe to the belief
that you can't do it wrong.
Whatever decision you make, itwrong, whatever decision you
make, it brings you to the nextplace and the next decision.
(10:08):
Honestly, that feels like maybeit's obvious to everybody, but
that took me a long time toreally understand.
I spent a lot of time beingstuck.
I was so afraid of making adecision that I didn't make any
decision and that's okay too,because there's things to learn.
In the place of being stuck, Iwas just so afraid.
(10:30):
And then I heard that advice oh, you just make a decision and
it brings you to the next placeand the next decision and you
can change course at any time.
You really can.
Even if you think you can't,you can.
I mean, I think the greatexample of that is somebody
who's getting married and theinvitations are sent and
(10:51):
everything's all set in stoneand everyone RSVP'd and you put
money down and then you realize,oh my God, I don't want to get
married to this person.
What do you do, do you gothrough with it or do you change
course, and so there's no rightor wrong.
Maybe there's a better decision, maybe there's an easier one,
(11:12):
maybe there's one that has lesscost involved and I mean all
kinds of costs, not just money,but like the toll it takes on
you and your life.
So I don't think that you canmake a wrong decision, because
if we're saying in adesire-based life, that desire
calls us to something greater inourselves and we're here on a
journey to learn and to grow assouls, then everything we're
(11:37):
doing, we're learning along theway, and that just brings us to
a better place for our nextdecision.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
I'm thinking about Dave Ramsey.
I don't know why he popped intomy head, but I think financial
desires.
It's so much easier to pointthis lesson in financial desires
, like some people will say well, I want my dream house, like, I
want this house and it's thissquare footage and this is what
(12:06):
it looks like and this is whatwe can afford.
But potentially, that houseisn't 30% of that person's
income allocation, it's a littlehigher, which means that it
changes things as in maybe youdon't have the same amount of
vacations If you are.
(12:27):
If your debt to income ratio isreally tight, then you don't
get to do other things.
In comparison to, let's say, ifyou did not buy the house and
you rented, maybe the rentinstead of the mortgage and
taxes would be less.
Or maybe you get a smallerhouse, something that isn't
quite as beautiful, but itallows you enough income so that
you can travel or so that you.
(12:49):
You know, houses have unexpectedexpenses.
It's not, they're not reallyasset building.
It's sort of something that wedo.
If that's something that wewant, but we don't have to,
there are other choices, and oneof the things that comes into
making that choice is how muchmoney do I have left over and
with the money that's left over,do I get to still live the kind
(13:11):
of life that I want to live, ordo I have to forego vacations,
forego parties, forego all theseother things, because I made
this lifestyle choice?
And so that's kind of what Imean when I point to.
You know, if you're a littlekid in the candy store, you're
going to be like well, why can'tI have the biggest house?
I can afford it, why can't Ialso have all the vacations that
(13:34):
I want?
It's like well, I want to eatwhatever I want to and not gain
a pound, like there's a lot ofthings that I would like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's a good one.
Well, I think we have to askourselves what we really want in
life.
What do you mostly want?
If you, if you, want a reallybig house and you're okay with
no vacations, not buying newclothes for a few years, having
an older car, if that, whateveryour situation is, then great,
(14:04):
but be a full yes to thatexperience, right?
If you're not a full yes tothat, then maybe you do want to
buy the smaller house becauseyou're like I don't really want
to give up my vacations and Ialso really want to lease that
car.
You know, if we're in reality,then we're looking at these
things with clear eyes andsaying what is actually in range
(14:27):
for me, what can I really haveand what kind of life do I want
to live?
I know people who don't mindgoing into debt and they have a
ton of debt and they're alwayspaying their debt and they're
very happy do that at all.
They don't want to go into anydebt at all.
They want to live completely intheir means.
Well, there's no right or wrongand in this world you can have
(14:48):
it however you want, like BurgerKing.
But you do need to ask yourselfwhat do you want?
What is your value, how do youwant to live and how are you
going to feel free and spaciousso you can enjoy your life?
Speaker 1 (15:02):
So I'm hearing you talk about the logistics of you
have a life, you have choices,you have different desires and
you get to choose your desiresand be a full yes, as you say,
and I want to point to that whenwe are a full yes to something,
we know the consequences.
(15:23):
So if I choose the house whereI can't go on vacations, then I
can't be victimized because I'mnot going on vacation and be mad
at the house or mad at mydesire for the house because it
wasn't my desire's fault.
I'm the one that said yes, I'mthe one that signed the mortgage
deal, I'm the one that signedthe lease or signed the contract
(15:45):
to get into that.
I think that's where we kind ofget tripped up Like, oh, I
wanted this, it was within mydesire, it was my desire.
Clearly, my desire isn't badand Brenda's saying there are no
wrong choices, but we do wantto make clear choices, like
choices and being clarity.
If I choose this house, that'ssomewhat very it's within my
(16:08):
means, but it's sort of at thetop tier I won't be able to do
these other things that I enjoyand am I okay with that?
Right?
Also, if I were to go to an IvyLeague college.
I really want to have an IvyLeague experience, but I'm
taking something I don't knowarts and crafts.
I'm going to say I'm takingsome kind of liberal arts degree
(16:28):
and there's no guarantee thatI'll be able to make up the
income that I'm going to spendon this Ivy League.
That has to be a choice,because then school loans
potentially, or my savings gointo that purchase right, Not
being victimized by what wedecide.
Being clear, I'm choosing thisbecause of X.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
And I want to say that can also be a bitch,
because you can go into it eyeswide open, making a clear choice
.
Let's just say the houseexample I'm going to buy this
house and I'm not going to beable to go on vacation for
probably several years.
You can be a yes to that, butthen you might be in it and you
might be like, oh shit, what didI do?
(17:10):
I really want to go on thatvacation.
Now, damn it, I can't go.
I'm really cursing a lot overhere.
Then what In those cases?
And I've had those experiencesthat's where I just have to
notice what's coming up for meand deal with whatever feelings
come up.
Maybe there is somedisappointment, maybe there is
some frustration, maybe youreally wish you could go on a
(17:35):
vacation and you really reallywish that you could, and you
know you can't.
But there's some feelings there.
We're not saying don't feelyour feelings, and once you make
a decision then you can't goback right.
Your decisions and your desiresbring you somewhere and it's
all an invitation to grow.
So have your feelings about it.
If that's what comes up for you, be honest with them.
I think that's freedom, yes, andyou can have both.
(17:58):
You could say oh, I made thisdecision and now I'm in this
boat and oh, I really don't likeit.
This is a hard boat to be in.
This is a hard boat to be in,but this is the boat that I'm in
.
I chose it not in a punishingway, but in a oh.
This is where I am right now,and what do I need now to move
(18:20):
forward?
What do I need now?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, what do I need now to move forward?
If, for some reason, I'm sad bythe choice that I made, or I'm
disappointed that I made thischoice and I really wasn't clear
on the cost, that's somethingelse.
I guess a different way oflooking at this is that there's
a cost in going for our desires,not just the cost of being
(18:44):
disappointed, that you go forsomething and it's potentially
not there.
You don't have it for somethingand it's potentially not there.
You don't have it, but there'sa cost to getting it.
So maybe for the house example,it means that you have to not
go on certain vacations so thatyou can save for the down
payment for the house.
Or the food example is if youwant your body to look a
(19:05):
particular way and caloriereduction is one way of doing it
, then you can't have thedessert all day long.
Or if you've decided you'regoing to be sober because you
don't want to be a drinkeranymore, then the cost is well,
you can't really have liquoranymore.
There are certain costs thatare sometimes they're hidden
(19:26):
costs in our desires that wedon't think about prior to.
We're often like am I willingto do the thing that it takes to
get there?
We don't ask ourselves whatdoes it cost me, like?
What are the invisible coststhat I don't see, in order for
me to get over there, andsometimes those costs feel high.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
They are high.
They can be high, let me put itthis way and they're not always
something that you cananticipate.
They can be high, let me put itthis way, and they're not
always something that you cananticipate.
You do not know.
And that's, like I said before,the beauty and the tragedy, the
humanness of following desire,like having the courage to
actually follow your desireinstead of living a life.
(20:09):
It may be an obligation orexpectation, a smaller life, but
if you want to follow thecalling of your soul, whatever
that might be, it's not going toalways make sense and you might
get to the other side of yourdesire and say, oh my God, it
did not bargain for this.
It did not bargain for this.
I'll give you a really bigexample this.
I'll give you a really bigexample Divorce.
(20:32):
We were married for a long time.
It took me a long time todecide.
I was not happy, we could notwork it out and I just couldn't
get it out of my head Like itkept coming, this tap on the
shoulder and I felt like this iswhat I needed to do.
I'm going to make a really longstory short.
We got a separation, we got adivorce.
(20:54):
I did not know the cost ofdivorce.
It has been quite high.
It's been financially difficult, it's been emotionally
difficult.
There was a cost with mychildren and my family.
There was a cost with mychildren and my family.
Divorce is devastating and I hadno idea of that.
(21:21):
There are times where I say,wow, I wish I didn't do that.
And then I'm in that boat,right, and I say, okay, well, I
remember the course of action.
I remember how long it took meto decide.
I remember how hard it was.
I remember how long it took meto decide, or remember how hard
it was and this is what Ieventually chose.
So here I am now, and what am Igoing to do with that?
And I've had to learn some madskills.
(21:41):
I've had to take really deepresponsibility.
And only through getting thedivorce did I really just hit
rock bottom in my life.
Through getting the divorce didI really just hit rock bottom in
my life.
I hit rock bottom where I hadno money left.
I'd given up my career, Ididn't have my relationship, I
didn't have my house, I didn'thave a place to live.
(22:02):
It was devastating and I've hadto find myself.
I've had to dig deep intomyself and my soul and my
resilience to rebuild andrecreate myself and clean up all
the mess and hold space for mychildren at the time.
(22:24):
They're older now, in theirdifficulty.
And that was really hard, muchharder than I ever bargained.
For If somebody had told mewell, people probably did, but
of course I didn't listen.
But if I had known what thatwould have been like, I may have
made a different choice.
(22:45):
But that's not the way lifeworks and you can't have an
embodied understanding ofsomething unless you actually go
through it.
So now I have this embodiedunderstanding of how difficult
that decision was, but also it'sperfect.
It's like beautifully perfect,because I've had to learn so
(23:05):
much and I've had to grow somuch and I've learned to be
financially responsible.
I wasn't before, I was justspending money, spending money
retail therapy you know.
There's a million examples Icould give you of how I've
learned and grown through thisdecision that eventually brought
(23:26):
me to rock bottom.
And here I am today.
I wouldn't be here today had Inot made that decision.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Do you have an idea of what you would have done
differently?
When you say, oh, you know,sometimes I think back and I'm
like I could have done thatdifferently.
But when I ask you this, thecaveat is like you have to think
about all the things that youdidn't like it, all the reasons
why you wanted to get a divorce,like what would the cost have
(23:56):
been to stay?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
yeah, I mean I really didn't.
I don't think I really had theskills for that at the time.
I think I went as far as Icould.
I was in a place of blame whereI just blamed him for
everything and I was.
I had the belief at the timethat if I was not in this
relationship I wouldn't behaving these problems Right.
(24:21):
So, I quote, got rid of mypartner.
I hate that language, butthat's just came to mind.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
And I'll even do a caveat of like is that just part
of speech?
Like something that we say likeoh, if I knew that it would be
this hard, if I knew of all thecosts, like I would do it
differently.
It's something that we say butthat when we think back it's
like was there really a way todo it differently?
(24:51):
Yeah, I don't like was therereally a way to do it?
Speaker 2 (24:52):
differently.
Yeah, I don't think there was away for me to do it differently
.
If there was, I would have doneit.
I really think my soul wascalling me to something
different.
I don't particularly like that,to be honest.
I don't like that.
My family was broken up and itwas hard for my kids and my kids
didn't have their mom and dadin their house anymore and I
(25:14):
lost my house.
My human doesn't really enjoythat.
That happened.
My soul, she is thrilled.
My soul is having a partybecause I've really learned and
grown on this journey.
So I don't think I could havedone it differently.
But what would I have donedifferently?
(25:34):
I think, been really honest.
I think I would have had to bereally honest with myself and
with him, and I honestly did notknow how to do that.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
So are we talking about like really honest
conversations?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Really honest conversations, of being in the
messy, I think, something that Ihave a lot of skill in now.
I have a lot of skill andpractice now in the gray.
I'm really good in the gray andI've gotten here because I
didn't have any idea what grayeven meant years ago.
(26:13):
I didn't know how to say thisis what's coming up for me,
these are my feelings, and Idon't know what to do about it.
And share it with my partnerand hold the high sensation of
his reaction, because I was verymuch in a pattern of enabling
(26:39):
him.
We both bought into that patternand so I was more interested in
keeping the peace and keepingthings at a status quo of no
conflict than I was of beingwith the truth, and his
reactions made me reallyuncomfortable.
(27:01):
It was really just hisemotional reactions.
He was uncomfortable, he gotanxious, he put pressure on me
let's resolve this, let's workthis out and I needed space and
time and it took me a long timeto learn how to ask for that.
But mostly I was mostlyinvested in control, changing my
(27:26):
truth or lying, so I wouldn'thave to see him uncomfortable
and I wouldn't have to have thediscomfort in my body of his
discomfort, because when he wasanxious or uncomfortable I would
become unstable, and so Ididn't put truth first, because
(27:50):
I didn't have that skill.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
And so I didn't put truth first because I didn't
have that skill.
I hear you.
It's so true, though it's souncomfortable to have honest
conversations with someone.
That's going to have some kindof emotional reaction.
That's a podcast in itself.
I can't wait to record that onewith you.
But I want to go back and justsay like we touched something
right now.
I think it's really importantfor listeners to hear you,
(28:16):
especially in your story anddescribing it.
You're like wow, if I justwould have known how hard it was
.
You know, I didn't want to putmy family through that Like I
wish I could have done itdifferently.
I think a lot of us can livethere, and then when we take a
pause to really be like well,what would that logistically
(28:37):
look like with the person that Iwas then?
And it's like oh, wow, theskills I needed.
I didn't have to do itdifferently, and that's painful,
or it can be.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
It's so painful.
It's so painful it really is.
This is like I'm opening upthis spot here.
This is like one of my deepestspots.
It's so painful and the cost ofmy decisions were huge and I
(29:14):
beat myself up for many, manyyears because I felt like I hurt
the people that I loved themost and that was devastating to
me.
And I was in a shame hole foryears about this.
And when I was in a shame holeI had no money because I was
(29:34):
just in this bottom.
And only until I was willing toactually look at the cost and
the impact of my decision and bewith that honestly was the only
way that I was able to get outof that hole, was the only way
(29:54):
that I was able to get out ofthat hole.
And what I've learned from allof that?
Well, I've learned deepresponsibility, deep humility
for my human who made a decision, made a mess, hurt people that
I loved, hurt myself.
I made it really hard formyself and to own that and to
(30:16):
not collapse in it.
I mean, I spent years collapsedin shame around it but to
finally and it took me yearshave a spine where I was able to
say this is what I did and thisis the impact and I'm sorry
even to myself and what I'velearned through that is probably
(30:39):
one of the biggest lessons thatI've ever learned in my life,
which is compassion andself-love.
(31:02):
We did a whole self-love seriesand I've had to find the
gumption to love myself and havecompassion for myself in really
difficult spots.
I would be up at night, nightafter night after night, in
regret and shame and playing itout in different ways in my mind
, as if all of that worry andanxiety would have changed one
(31:23):
thing no, we can't go back andchange the past, and it took me
a long time to learn how toactually be with it.
And I have so much compassionfor myself now because I'm in
the boat of oh, I don't reallylike how that went, but this is
how it went.
These are the consequences, andI love and accept myself fully,
(31:49):
even though it's reallyuncomfortable and really sad.
And I didn't have the skillsback then and I had to go
through all of that to learnthese skills and it was so messy
and I didn't know any other wayto do it.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Well, yes, I mean, I don't think we know ahead of
time how to be with messy inthis location, and that makes
absolutely 100% complete sense.
I mean, we're talking aboutdesire In this case.
We're talking about desire forseparation, divorce, and then if
(32:29):
you, listener, are swapping outthis desire with something that
you want, what's really neededis honesty, like truth, like
when Brenda thinks back and saysI could have done this
differently.
We don't really come up with away that it could have been
different.
Right, because she needed tobecome the woman she is today in
order to be able to do that ofyesterday, maybe finding a good
(32:51):
mentor that would help youexcavate and be in truth.
But who knows?
We just don't know.
We can speculate and, with myown life experience now, when I
think to myself, oh, I couldhave done that differently, I
actually am starting to err inthe direction that whatever
(33:13):
choice I made was actually thebest choice and, even if there
is chaos and crap that comes outof it that I would have
preferred to not have to livethrough or experience, that
that's actually the best outcome, predominantly because it's one
I know and that I get to see inthis life that it turned out
(33:35):
okay, versus looking back andthinking, oh, I could have done
this differently, it could haveturned out differently, but the
truth is that I don't know Icould have caused more mayhem in
that direction.
There's just no way of knowing.
There's the phrase right, likewe get to have everything we
want, but maybe not all at thesame time.
And so, as a reminder to alllisteners like we have desire,
(34:01):
we don't always get what we want, and sometimes we have
different things that we wantall at the same time.
And, what's most important,when we have conflict and
desires or we're trying to numbourselves or we don't want to
feel the discomfort ofpotentially going after
something and not receiving it,that we be honest with ourselves
.
That honesty is really one ofthe most important components,
(34:25):
the most important ingredientwith desire, because there will
always be something shiny, therewill always be another way, be
another moment to swipe right.
There will be always anothermoment for different 31 flavors
of ice cream, maybe 32.
There will always be more, moreoptions.
And we get to decide.
Am I staying where I'm at?
(34:46):
Am I actually moving towardsand building the life that I say
that I want, or am I choosing adistraction, choosing something
else, even though it's also adesire.
Am I really going for andbacking the thing that I want?
Am I looking to build the lifeof my dreams?
Am I living within my means?
(35:06):
Am I taking care of my body?
Are my relationships okay?
Like when we really narrow itdown, it's really wealth, health
relationships, or healthrelationships, wealth I guess we
could look at it in different,but those are the biggest
(35:27):
markers of our life.
Who are we spending our timewith?
Who do we want to spend ourtime with?
Who are the major relationshipand players that we want in our
life?
Who are we spending our timewith?
Who do we want to spend ourtime with?
Who are the major relationshipand players that we want in our
life?
What kind of income do we wantto have?
How do we want to live?
What kind of body do we want tolive in?
So desire is big and then wenarrow it down in these topics,
(35:50):
these categories of health,wealth, relationship, mostly
because you could have a lot ofproblems, but once you have a
health problem, that's the onlyproblem.
You have Just that healthproblem.
All the other problems go awaybecause it doesn't matter.
It's completely not a non-issue.
Yeah, thank you so much, brenda, for being vulnerable here and
(36:14):
sharing this with myself, withlisteners.
It's really tender to look backat something that we
potentially aren't so proud ofand having to admit that that is
probably the best outcome, evenwith all the fire alarms and
all the things that fell and allthe things that got hurt and
broken along the way.
It's really true.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
I think about that too.
Oh, maybe the difficult paththat I had was the best outcome.
We don't really know, which iswhy I really stand behind you
can't do it wrong.
Right, and I love what you said.
Maybe I was just supposed tosee in this lifetime that it
turned out okay, because withall the difficulty it is turning
(36:58):
out okay.
I've had a lot of peace in myheart.
I have the angst too, becausethat peace it just lives inside
of me, but I have a lot of peacein my heart and I've grown so
much and now I walk womenthrough these pieces and that is
really beautiful.
And I want to also be reallyclear that I want to make an
(37:20):
edit from earlier that I didn'tactually have a desire for
divorce.
I had this tap on my shoulderand I had a desire to experience
life.
I had a desire to experiencemyself.
I had a desire to experiencemyself.
I wanted to know myself.
I actually wanted to feeldesire.
You know I was, you knowsuburban mom worked in, you know
(37:43):
all of that and I was like whoam I?
I just felt like there wassomething more.
I wanted to feel my desire andI don't know the path that I
took.
That was not in my relationship, you know it had to end, but
and that that was how Iinterpreted it was oh, I'm
getting a divorce.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
I can see that right.
We want a particular life andwe're like, how do we bring this
person with us or how do?
How do we get to do all thosethings and still be suburban mom
?
Like, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Those are hard questions.
They're really hard questions.
I also really want to say thatI believe it's possible.
Like you can take your partnerwith you, I think you can 100%
invite and take your partnerwith you.
I've seen it happen.
It's beautiful.
It was not my path.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
I think that's the true statement you can, it's
possible.
And it doesn't turn out thatway for everyone.
Exactly Right, so interesting.
All the places that we talked,all the corners that we went in
conversation today when, inreality, when we first started
recording, the thought was howit feels to not get what you
(38:57):
want, Like that ouch, thatsensation of well you know what,
I don't even want to go for itbecause I'm so afraid of not
having it.
And to get to the gorgeousplaces where we've given some
examples and we're now saying,well, so the gorgeous places
where we've given some examplesand we're now saying, well,
maybe there's no wrong way, butyou do have to be in the game,
going for it.
Like there may not be a wrongway, but there is a way.
(39:25):
Like you have to be on the path, attempting to get there,
otherwise getting there isalmost impossible.
Otherwise getting there isalmost impossible.
And today we also talked aboutfeeling into what life do you
want?
And you may have conflictingdesires.
There may be like shinysyndrome, where you know
everything looks really shinyand you want to say yes to all
the pieces and parts and all thethings.
(39:46):
But if you're looking forenergy and you're saying yes to
everything and you have noenergy.
Well, that's something to lookat, something to ask yourself
where am I saying yes, where Ishould not be saying yes because
I need to honor myself?
Or if you're looking to savefor that house or that car or
that purchase, if you're buyingeverything that's shiny and you
need to be with yourself and askyourself, hey, is this really
(40:06):
helping me reach my desire?
Like, where are we really andare we really honoring and
backing ourselves?
Thank you so much, everyone fortuning in today.
If there was something thatresonated with you deeply,
please let us know.
We'd love to hear from you.
Thank you, bye for now.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
Thank you for joining us on the Desire is Medicine
podcast.
Speaker 1 (40:36):
Desire invites us to be honest, loving and deeply
intimate with ourselves andothers.
You can find our handles in theshow notes.
We'd love to hear from you.
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