April 16, 2024 • 47 mins
Join us for an inspiring chat with Charlie Kramer, a life coach who's truly mastered the art of living confidently with his disability. We'll dive into his journey with Retinitis Pigmentosa (RP), an inherited retinal condition that shapes his unique perspective on life and teaches us valuable lessons about resilience and acceptance.
Charlie shares his advocacy for mobility tools like the blind cane and opens up about the profound impact his disability has had on his identity. He sheds light on the importance of individuality, respect, and understanding when interacting with people with disabilities. Plus, he shares personal stories that help us understand the delicate balance between offering help and respecting independence.
We'll explore the hidden aspects of living with a disability and discuss societal norms and attitudes towards disabilities. Charlie likens his experience of sight loss to building a puzzle, emphasizing the importance of individual autonomy in navigating life's challenges. He shares his journey of self-discovery, acceptance, and how he's turned his blindness into opportunities for growth.
And let’s not forget that Charlie is also a musician. He discusses his immersive and transformative experience, "Singing in the Dark," a blindfolded singing and healing experience that's as unique as it is enlightening. We'll also get insights from his song, "Vision," which beautifully encapsulates his outlook on life.
Join us as we celebrate Charlie's roles in teaching, coaching, and singing, and discover his innovative approach to disability. Tune in and let's embrace and celebrate the diversity of life, both its opportunities and challenges.
🎙️ EPISODE LINKS ⬇
Charlie Kramer's Guest Profile (bio, social inks, etc.) :: https://podcast.johnbgrimes.com/guests/charlie-kramer/
Charlie Kramer's Website :: https://www.charliekramervision.com/
Charlie's Music :: https://open.spotify.com/artist/30mwMNAR86PRAtIThQJ2Qk?si=cvCLklGBRD6eotGH5X62xA
DID Episode: Tasting In The Dark with Hoby Wedler :: https://podcast.johnbgrimes.com/tasting-in-the-dark-with-hoby-wedler/
DID Blog Post: 5 Things I Wish Were Understood About People With Physical Limitations :: https://podcast.johnbgrimes.com/blog/5-things-i-wish-were-understood-about-people-with-physical-limitations/
🎙️ PODCAST LINKS ⬇
GET YOUR OWN DONT WAIT MUG! :: https://amblind.creator-spring.com/listing/destiny-dont-wait-black?product=1565
For show notes, guest profiles, photos, blog, social media links & more, visit JohnBGrimes.com
.:: Destiny is Debatable is a Cemblem production and made possible by the generous support of our listeners and Executive Producer, Erin Grimes.
Please consider supporting to sustain our content. :: https://ko-fi.com/ambiguouslyblind
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Music.
(00:12):
Welcome to destiny is debatable a podcast and movement that will encourage you
to build your life into the one you want.
Here's your host a guy whose vision is like looking through binoculars backwards john grimes,
hey hey howdy howdy thanks for tuning in subscribing and supporting the podcast
(00:34):
experience The guest for this episode is Charlie Kramer.
Charlie, among many things in life, is a disability life coach.
And I don't know, he just has an incredible aura about himself and kind of how
he teaches people through his social media posts and things that he says and talks that he's done.
He's a pretty incredible guy and also a musician.
(00:58):
So I was doubly interested in bringing Charlie on to find out some more.
Hey, Charlie. Thanks for stopping by.
Thanks so much for having me. It's nice to be here. It is. Nice to have you
here, Charlie. It's been a long way getting this done.
We've actually been talking about this. Well, not talking, but we originally
had this scheduled for maybe a year or two ago. And just things happen.
(01:19):
And the good news is that we're both still doing the same thing a couple years
later. So yeah, agreed. I might be something about that.
Maybe we're doing good stuff. I think we are.
That must be it. Well, I hope that's the case. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So disability life coach, the great Charlie Kramer's here with us.
But before we get into that, Charlie, I have a few questions that I have to,
(01:39):
I'm legally obligated by my listeners to ask you to get to know Charlie.
So hang in there. Okay. Okay. I'm ready.
You're a musician, Charlie. So this is an interesting question,
I think. What is your favorite band or type of music?
That's a big question for me. I would say if I have to choose one band,
it's definitely The Who.
(02:01):
I've seen them the most times in concert. Actually, I've seen them four times.
I never saw them with Entwistle, unfortunately, but I've seen and with Roger
Daltrey and Pete Townsend.
And, you know, it's been amazing every single time. But I love a lot of type
of music, you know, bluegrass.
And, you know, I listen to a lot of like Irish and Scottish modern folk type stuff.
(02:26):
And you name it, I listen to it, honestly.
Okay, cool. Yeah. All right. What about reading?
Do you have a favorite book or type of book or author? I don't do a lot of reading.
It's never really been my thing.
But I recently listened to the audio book of Matthew McConaughey called Greenlights.
(02:48):
Yeah. Okay. So did you like that? It was great. It was great. I loved it. Yeah.
And it's kind of sparked a drive in me to start listening to some more audio books as well.
It's actually on my list of things to read.
It's great. Yeah. I like Matthew. He's an interesting guy. I'd recommend it for sure.
Okay, if you could have coffee with two other people in history,
(03:11):
who would they be and what do you think you'd talk about?
The first person would, you know, I, for the listeners, this might be more of
a boring answer, but for me, this is the truth.
I would bring my partner, Greta, without a doubt.
Well, we're interested in the truth, so let's have it. Yeah.
Yeah. I would definitely bring Greta with me.
(03:33):
She's my life partner and someone that I always want to have around.
And I also would bring my grandfather.
We call him Papa Sean. He passed away when I was five years old and has this,
I don't know, there's just some kind of connection there that's always guided me.
And I've always felt super drawn to him, even though I didn't,
(03:55):
you know, I was so young when he passed away.
So I'd want to have the two of them there, have a cup of coffee,
maybe even let it be a pint of Guinness, you know, and just relax and enjoy
and connect with them and reflect.
Who has been the best coach or guiding influence in your life?
I think both of my parents in different ways.
(04:17):
I've definitely had people outside of my parents who have been really helpful
and I've hired coaches and I've worked with therapists and there's been so many people along the way.
And I really think that a lot of what I've learned in life has come from my parents.
And I will also give a special shout out to my mom too because she has retinitis pigmentosa like I do.
(04:41):
So I've grown up with a role model of how to live life and a lot of what I teach
and a lot of the way that I live and I learned it from her you know and I get
to have that blessing so I would definitely say my parents for sure.
If you could give your 19 year old self some advice what would it be and do
(05:02):
you think you would listen?
The second part of that question is fantastic. Do I think I would listen?
Actually, I think I probably would.
I've always been fascinated with being a person of value.
I used to live by this quote, try not to be a man of success,
(05:23):
but rather a man of value.
And that was always what I lived my life by.
And it was how in high school you have that little quote next to
your picture on your senior year you know that was my quote okay so
judging off of that i think i would have wanted to learn from
myself i hope i the
advice that i would give myself is just to be patient
(05:44):
and to not not to mean be patient as don't try and let everything come to you
but work really hard but try to expect less and be patient with the progress
because i'm actually really proud to to be where I am today.
And I'm proud of the person that I am.
And I think sometimes throughout my younger years, I wanted to do too much too soon.
(06:09):
And I think if I took more time to just go, it's all happening,
look at it happening and take a step back, I might even be farther along,
and potentially not farther along, but more grounded within who I am and what
I do and feel feel even a deeper sense of self-worth,
which I already have a very strong sense of worth, but it can only be improved,
(06:32):
you know? So I think that would be it.
Great. You've reached the end of the contractually obligated questions.
Cool. Good job. Yeah. Signed, sealed, delivered.
Okay, so disability life coach. I also want to throw in there a musician,
which I think is super cool too.
So how do those two, what is a disability life coach? What does that mean?
(06:53):
Essentially, the work I do is I help people with disabilities to live a confident life,
to learn how to integrate their disability into their lives,
to accept it, to live based off of what they desire and what they know that
they need rather than the lies of what people say we're capable of.
And for some people, that means really big goals. But other times,
(07:15):
it just means asking for the accommodations that we need in life,
asking Asking for or gaining the confidence
to start using a mobility tool or a cane or to work through the process of going
to the doctor or how to disclose your disability in the workplace or even how
(07:37):
to disclose your disability when you're dating someone. All those different things come into play.
But really, it's building up the core of who you are and feeling confident and
proud in who you are, not despite your disability, but with it.
And I do that through one-on-one programs, through a group program called Confidently
(07:57):
Disabled. And I have people that I work with continually, like in a continuation program.
And yeah, that's, I'd say, a good summary of what my work includes and what
it does. Yes. How much does fear play a role in that coaching?
I mean, everybody has fear in life, but it's harnessing that and knowing where
(08:21):
the boundaries are, particularly,
I guess, with people with disabilities, the fear of being discovered or being
not enough or you are less of a person, all those kinds of things.
I mean, as a guy with a disability myself, which my My disabilities are mostly invisible to others.
So there is the question about when do I disclose? How do I disclose?
(08:44):
Is it, do I need to disclose ever in certain circumstances? Yeah.
Are these types of things that come out in coaching sessions with you and the
people that you work with? Yeah, definitely.
I'd say a lot of this stuff is maybe halfway through a program or a little bit
later on with how to disclose or what to say and what not to say.
First thing that we need to do is we need
(09:06):
to get really clear on what thoughts
and belief systems are our own
and what have been guided through societal norms
through ableism and what of that have you internalized to believe about yourself
that maybe you think i'm not good enough i'm not a partner that someone would
(09:28):
want to be with because of my disability or no one wants to to hire me because
of my disability or, you know.
Maybe I shouldn't take a step out and really show my full authentic self because
people will reject it and they won't accommodate for what I actually need.
These are all belief systems, some of which are built upon experiences and traumas
(09:48):
that have happened that are real.
And it's about identifying and differentiating what those trauma-informed belief
systems are and what the true belief systems of what you're capable are.
And once you've separated those two things and you make it really clear,
then it's easier to compartmentalize the fear and to look at it as,
(10:11):
okay, I'm so glad that I know what I'm afraid of here.
And how can I strategically take steps to work through it at a pace that is
comfortable and doable for me? And that is something that I think a lot of people struggle with.
They look at the goal and they look at where they are and they go, I can't do it.
(10:31):
It looks too big. And my job is to help create steps that are small enough and
actionable enough that they can take steps over time to get there.
How does coaching compare to therapy?
What's the difference? Yeah. So therapy is really built around talking and working
(10:52):
through the trauma in our lives to get to a point where we may not repeat those actions over time.
And a lot of times a therapist's job is to help us understand and help us learn
on our own. What I mean by that is one of the biggest questions that a therapist
will act is, and how does that make you feel?
(11:12):
What do you think about that? Because
they're guiding you to your own self-reflection and self-realization.
And I actually am a big fan of this. And I'm in therapy myself.
I have been for years. I deeply believe in it.
And I also believe in people giving giving us direct advice and systems.
I think the two of those things together are really important.
(11:35):
That's what coaching is more of.
Feedback. This is what's going on. Okay. Are you ready for some feedback and
some next steps? If the answer is yes, great. Here's what we're going to do.
I think we need to identify these things. I think we need to take actions here.
We need to stop doing this, more of that, whatever it might be so that there's
(11:57):
a clear path and a plan forward that you can start acting on.
So coaching is more action-based and solution-driven.
And therapy, even though it is solution-driven, is more of a a self-discovery
experience that you're guided in a safe space where coaching can sometimes even
feel more intense because I'm asking you to step out of your comfort zone,
(12:19):
you know, and it's an agreement between each other to do that.
Okay. And so you mentioned therapy that you've done over the years.
Your disability, I suspect, has a lot to do with the need for that therapy.
Kind of explain RP, retinitis pigmentosa, also called RP for short,
to somebody that maybe doesn't understand what that means.
Totally. And I actually want to take a step back and say that I've actually
(12:42):
not spent a lot of time in therapy talking about my vision loss because by the
time that I actually went into therapy,
I had already accepted and built up self-worth around my blindness.
I'd been using my cane for years.
And I think a lot of that is to do with the fact that I have family members
that have the same thing that I do.
(13:02):
And that is retinitis pigmentosa, which is essentially a degenerative disease
that runs in my family. It's a dominant gene.
And it means that you got a 50-50 coin flip of whether or not you're going to
have it. And you lose your peripheral vision over time.
So I see like I'm looking through a straw at this point. I have 4% of my vision remaining.
(13:26):
And I also have night blindness because of it. So I don't see anything in the dark.
Obviously, if there's a light, I see the light. But if it's completely dark.
Your eyes would adjust. Mine never do.
And then I've got tons of other fun things that come along with it,
like cataracts and sensitivity to the light and floaters and all,
you know, you name it, right?
I'm a little bit colorblind and things that I discover every single day that
(13:49):
are new. And, you know, I go, wow, that's unique.
And then I, you know, adapt to it and work through it.
But that's a pretty general description of retinitis. One of those cool things
that you got passed down through your family.
Yeah, it's just for me, I look at it as something that's a part of my life and it makes me who I am.
You know, I don't look at it as a burden. There's moments that it does challenge me greatly. And,
(14:15):
I've gotten to a place in my life where I'm excited about those challenges.
That's good. The podcast used to be called Ambiguously Blind.
And some of the posts I've seen from you and some of the things I know about
you, you can relate to being ambiguously blind or, you know,
like this is an audio only podcast.
Charlie and I are both wearing glasses. I mean, other than being devastatingly
(14:37):
handsome, we're both wearing glasses, which I think would boggle the mind of
some people that if you told them that you were blind, but but you're wearing corrective lenses.
How do you explain that, Charlie? Well, it depends if I want to explain it or not.
This is a scenario that I definitely will, but something I work on with my own
life and also with other people is the freedom to be like, sometimes it's none
(14:59):
of anyone's business and that's okay.
If somebody comes up to me and says, wow, I see that you're using a cane and
you're also wearing glasses.
And I was just so curious if you could tell me about that.
It depends on whether or not I'm going to answer that question.
Sometimes I just want my coffee and I'm going to be like, hey,
thanks so much for asking the question. I really appreciate your curiosity.
(15:22):
I'm not open to talking about it right now, but follow me on Instagram if you
want to learn more or maybe another time or thanks so much.
And my name's Charlie, by the way, and talk to you. See you later.
And end the conversation.
So sometimes I'll do that that because I don't have to be a walking description
and lesson point for people.
And sometimes I'm open to it and I want to answer.
(15:45):
And obviously this is one of those moments we're talking about it,
but I just wanted to give that example and that freedom to people because I
think it's really important.
Yeah. And I think it's important that you also, you don't have to,
you know, you may, we may be the only person that somebody meets that has RP
or some sort a visual impairment.
So there's also a little bit of a balance there where I don't.
(16:07):
Necessarily want to give the wrong impression about a person that has a visual
impairment or something.
But at the same time, I don't, you know, like you just said,
I'm just here to get my coffee.
So I have to go and I don't, you know, this is probably a longer,
this takes a lot longer to actually talk about probably than what I have time
for right now. Like this is, I'm going, you're probably going.
(16:29):
So let's, you know, here, here's how to connect with me. Let's,
let's talk about it some other time. Sure. But that's if you're open to it.
Sorry to interrupt. I would say that's if you want to take on that responsibility
where I think sometimes people get confused where if you do have a disability,
it doesn't mean that you have to be a spokesperson for your disability if you don't want to be.
(16:52):
Now, I think you and I are people that enjoy that. And so oftentimes I will answer.
And my answer, if they're asking about my glasses, I go, you know,
I see like I'm looking through a straw.
The glasses correct what's in the straw. It's helpful. They turn into sunglasses.
Thanks for asking. Have a great day. And no matter what, however I respond,
it's just with kindness and openness and, you know, gratitude for the good intentions.
(17:17):
Yeah. It's like all the emails have been exchanging your signatures, sending love.
So I definitely get that aura, that vibe from you. So I don't imagine you're
going to, you know, irritate anybody.
But at the same time, you're right. Just because it doesn't even have to be a disability.
Somebody could ask anybody a question and you just aren't in the mood to answer
or you just don't feel like you... We have privacy, right?
(17:39):
We don't have to talk about everything. We're not on the couch all the time.
And maybe we're not ready to get that deep or unveil that part of our life to just a random person.
Definitely. And some things are private. But it's interesting, right?
This is the invisible disability aspect. suspect because if you go up to someone
(17:59):
and you say, hey, so I heard you went to the doctor recently.
How was that doctor visit? What's your medical history like?
That's not what you would ask somebody, right? That's very abnormal.
But that's essentially what you're asking when you say, hey,
I noticed you're blind. Tell me your life story.
You're like, well, let me open
up my medical file. So I think if you think about it that way, it's okay.
(18:21):
So if you ask, no worries, is just be open to the fact that they might not want
to answer and that's okay.
And, you know, it's no big deal in either direction.
Yeah, I think kind of on that same trajectory there, are there things in general
working with people with disabilities or in particular sight loss,
are there things that you wish people knew.
(18:44):
About people with a disability or with sight loss?
Yeah, I think a lot of people assume that sight loss is the same for everyone,
that it looks the same or that the experiences are the same.
And that's just not the case.
I also want people to get really comfortable with the idea that.
(19:05):
People are allowed to use canes or mobility tools, even if they can still see
something. I think that's a really big one.
The thought process of, well, you either have to have no sight or you can't
use the cane is wild to me because it helps me so much.
I want people to understand that's no big deal and to not think,
(19:26):
oh, he's taking advantage or he's faking it.
No, I'm using this so I don't run you over in the middle of the street. You should be grateful.
And then the other thing too is that just because someone has a disability doesn't
mean they automatically want pity or that you should feel sorry for them because
a lot of us with disabilities are used to it.
(19:47):
And again, it's an integrated part of our lives that sometimes can be challenging
and can pose different problems, but it's not always a problem.
It's not always a challenge, and it doesn't overwhelm our thoughts every day.
Now, for some people in the beginning or different moments, it does.
And that's when you would want that person to work with a professional, a coach or a therapist.
(20:11):
But most of the time, we're just doing our thing. You know, we're living life
and we're enjoying and we're doing things differently.
But different is not always worse. And I think it doesn't also,
at least for me, mean that we always need help or always want help anyway.
You know, we do things differently and sometimes we're very comfortable with
how we do things. just like people like the way they have routines and do things.
(20:35):
And I feel like there's been times where somebody's offered help to me and I've
refused it politely, of course.
And I feel like they have a like, wow, guys, disingenuous or he doesn't appreciate
anything I'm doing or I'm trying to help the guy and he doesn't want help.
But I mean, independence is a big thing for anybody, but particularly people,
(20:57):
and at least speaking for myself, that I value my independence.
And there certainly are things I need help with and occasionally ask help for
and all that kind of stuff.
You know, that happens. happens, but I wish that people would respect a no and
just kind of move on with it. I agree.
That's a big one. I really am very glad that you said it. I'm curious how you
(21:21):
feel when somebody says, are you sure?
Are you sure? A bunch of times. Does that irk you as much as it irks me?
So it's like, you know, I mean, again, this is where do we have,
how much time do we have here?
Right. With this person I'm standing next to, I don't, do you have the next
25 minutes for me to give you my whole life story and tell you what I've been
through and what I've been doing. So, yeah, I mean, and sometimes it's weird,
(21:43):
too, because those things can come from people that, you know, really well.
Right. Right. Could be a partner or a sister or a brother or a parent or somebody
that really just just really wants to just help you.
But at the same time, you know, I just got to do this my way.
I want to do the way I want to do what I'm doing.
And this is just how I do it. And I know there's probably an easier way to do it.
(22:03):
But this is what I do and sometimes it's
hard to maybe the closer the person is
to you it's the harder it is to push them away or say no
because just out of love they they want but help but there's there's a respect
thing that you have to have and stand up for yourself and sometimes that's I
found it difficult to I found the no answer to be difficult for them to receive
(22:28):
that and And it's like, I don't understand this. What's going on here?
I couldn't agree more. And the way that I like to explain it to people is building a puzzle.
Sometimes you want help with the puzzle.
But most of the time, you don't want to hand someone the puzzle that you just
bought, have them go build it for you, frame it, and bring it back.
(22:50):
That's not why you bought the puzzle. No, that is not why you bought the puzzle.
That's not why they bought the puzzle.
So I want people to get comfortable with allowing people to work through their own puzzles in life.
I like that. That's good. And really be understanding of that.
Because for me, when I'm walking around and banging my cane against things, like I'm having a blast.
(23:12):
I'm figuring it out, you know? Don't turn the lights on. Like I am learning
how to use my cane right now in a way that I never have before maybe. And I'm enjoying it.
So if you say, let me turn the lights on. I say, no, I'm enjoying this.
Like, no, really, it'll be easier. No, the answer is no.
Because there could be a time where they're not there to turn the lights on.
(23:32):
Exactly. And you need to know what to do in those situations,
not to mention that you just want to be able to put the puzzle together yourself,
which like you said, that's why I got the puzzle to begin with.
That's why I got the puzzle, right?
Yeah, 100%. And you're talking about the white cane. What is your relationship
with the white cane been? Was it an immediate acceptance?
Was there a journey for that? Or how did that work for you? Big journey. Big journey.
(23:57):
My family, as I know I've given them a lot of praise in this podcast,
I will also say that my family,
built into societal norms and expectations and ableism,
I would say have learned to assimilate and act like their disabilities are invisible
more than stand out and be authentically what they are and who they need to
(24:20):
be with their disabilities.
So what that has meant is that instead of using a cane,
they've hung onto the arm of their partner or walked around and acted like they
could see things or aggressively look at the ground and try and scan and move
really quickly or do more than they actually could to make it seem like they were okay.
(24:41):
But everyone, you're like, we're not fooling anyone, right?
So I have aunts and uncles and even times my mom at different moments had tried to do that.
But I will say that she's gone on a journey of using her cane more often and
has always used it a little bit more than others in the family.
And I went through that same journey. I just wanted to be a normal teenager.
(25:03):
I had my moments of wanting to be in my 20s and go out at night and not have to hang on to my friends.
And eventually, I got to a place where I realized, what am I doing here?
This is ridiculous. Just use the cane and enjoy it. And honestly,
ever since I've made that shift, my life has infinitely improved on so many levels.
(25:25):
And I think people would automatically think, wow, it must be so easy to navigate.
That's the biggest difference. That's probably the smallest amount of impact.
The biggest amount of impact has been my connection to my identity with my disability,
my self-worth, my self-confidence, my knowingness in who I am.
(25:46):
All those things have skyrocketed. And with that, opportunities in life have
come too, because I'm putting out better energy into the world because I feel
I have a better relationship to myself and my disability.
And that's been my story and my journey with it. But for some people,
the most authentic thing to do is to not use a cane or a mobility tool.
And that's fine. It really depends.
(26:09):
But I've loved it. And a lot of people call it a white cane.
I have every color of the rainbow of a cane. So I tend to call it a blind cane
or only a white cane when I'm using it because it can be confusing if I'm using
a blue or a black or a green cane and I call it a white cane.
They're like, what are you talking about? It's green.
Or you could just say, well, I'm blind. So you tell me what color.
(26:30):
It is that's right yeah what about you similar
story so i don't really use one vision
the whole spectrum thing is pretty for
me it would be an identification so it would be so others know i can see just
enough to be dangerous is what i like to say totally blind in my right eye and
have about 2300 in my my left eye
(26:52):
and i mean i ride a bike by myself which boggle you know it's It's like,
he's wearing corrective lenses and he's riding a bike. The guy's not blind.
So probably the biggest thing, like if I'm standing at Starbucks and I'm waiting
for my drink and I have a cane in my hand, it's pretty easy for me to get assistance
in finding the cup that has my name on it, right?
(27:15):
If I'm crossing the street as a pedestrian, it's pretty easy for cars to understand
that this guy doesn't see very well or not at all.
Other than that there's not been a
ton of benefits in my life to to use
the cane so you know i think
when i'm in public areas airports places where
(27:36):
i've got to explain things that aren't obvious that's where it comes in handy
for as an identification but for getting around most places you know i guess
for the most part i'm okay but i do recognize that i think in kind of what you
described or maybe another way to say it is we talked about independence earlier.
I think the white cane can be a tremendous source of independence.
(28:00):
It is, yeah. For somebody that uses it. Have you experienced that? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I'm a very independent person and all the work that I've done travel-wise throughout
my life, I've pretty much done it by myself.
I navigate through airports and through different cities, and I've even gone
on a vacation to Ireland and England by myself, completely alone.
(28:26):
I went for two weeks to Europe by myself two years ago when my vision was pretty
similar to what it is now.
And I don't think I could have done that without my cane.
Now, there's still moments where people came up to me and grabbed me or tried
to help me when I didn't need it. But for the most part, it helped me.
It just gives me a sense of confidence and structure and foundation that I personally really like.
(28:51):
But again, that's me. I've found that sometimes Sometimes independence can also
come as like a fight to keep what you had.
Like I want what I've always known and I don't want to let go,
right? Like grasping on.
Sure. Yeah. And you know, that can, that can happen in both directions.
Like sometimes I need to let go of my cane and do something without it.
(29:13):
And I feel like I don't want to let go. Right.
Or the other way of like, I don't want to use my cane right now. Like I don't need it.
I don't need it. And sometimes I struggle with that when I go to friends' houses
or someone's house for dinner or something like that, because in my home,
I don't use my cane. I know where everything is. I don't need it.
But when I walk into someone else's home, the last thing I want to do is knock
(29:35):
over their great aunt Sally. That would be bad.
That would not be good. so I've learned even though it's really uncomfortable
that's probably the point where I'm like I don't want to use my cane right now
I use it in the beginning to at least map it and that was a big transition for
me yeah I can relate to that particularly.
(29:58):
Something else that you do, and I guess it's in the coaching or whatever realm
you work in, is the singing in the dark as we transition to music.
So I am enamored by your music. And we do have a song. You've given us a song to play.
We'll play it at the end of the episode here, Vision, which is a super cool song.
I've been jamming out to for the last couple of days now.
(30:18):
No, thanks. Talk to me about singing in the dark and how you incorporate that
into your approach to coaching and speaking. speaking.
Definitely. Well, in a way, we almost have to reverse engineer because the music
came before the coaching.
So I grew up in the Jewish world and the reformed Jewish world.
(30:40):
So I grew up going to summer camp and Jewish summer camp and my synagogue.
And there was always someone playing the guitar. I learned how to play the guitar.
And they said, hey, why don't you just play while we're doing this stuff?
And I said, great, that's going to be way more fun than just just being here.
And I eventually learned to love it and started to connect with my spirituality in a big way.
(31:01):
And I began writing music and then I would travel around to different communities
and organizations and share that music.
And eventually, I learned and realized that I wasn't being my full authentic
self as a musician or as a person because I wasn't integrating my blindness.
So So everything was kind of connecting.
(31:22):
I was traveling to different places, sharing my music with them and telling
no one about my vision loss.
They had no idea. I wasn't using a cane, nothing. No one had any idea.
So eventually, I gained the confidence in myself to stand out there.
And then I started integrating my blindness and my vision loss into my music and started,
(31:44):
The first way that I did that was by creating a blindfolded singing and healing
experience called Singing in the Dark.
Essentially what it is, it's 45 minutes to an hour of people with blindfolds on.
They are guided into the space, so they don't know what the room looks like.
I'm already in there with other musicians potentially or just myself,
(32:06):
and I'm playing music and guiding them in.
And there's people actually guiding them in the way that you're supposed to
guide people who are blind or visually impaired. They get sat down.
They have no idea where they are. And then for the next hour to 45 minutes to
an hour, I basically take them through a musical experience where the music
is almost there to bring them into the room because they think it's going to be about the music.
(32:28):
But really, it's about learning how to sing in the dark. How do we learn to
use our negative experiences and our challenges in our lives to bring lessons
and opportunities for growth?
And that's what I've done to guide people through that. So at this point,
(32:48):
with that teaching, I was already a certified mindfulness instructor.
I'd been leading spiritual communities for a long time. And through that experience
of singing in the dark, I really learned that my biggest passion in life was
helping people to unlock their greatness.
And then I realized, I've been in this Jewish space for so long.
(33:09):
It's been so beautiful for me, but I want to help other people with disabilities
that I saw all around me, even my family, that are struggling to just say,
hey, this is me, and I'm cool with that.
And that's where the coaching journey began.
And I got certified and trained in coaching and improved skill sets.
(33:30):
And then it's really taken off from there. And now it's my full-time work.
So I still travel and go to different communities and I'll do Singing in the Dark.
And I've done Singing in the Dark for a thousand people in 25.
The spectrum is super wide. And I'd say each time is powerful and amazing because
you get to feel in the room without seeing it what people are going through.
(33:52):
And they get to make space for the growth that they want to achieve in their
life without having to have people watch them go through that experience.
But then they're also surrounded by everyone doing that at the same time.
So it's very communal. And it's also very personal.
And I love it. I love doing Singing in the Dark to this day.
So do you think music is the key there?
(34:12):
I mean, I just I'm a music dork. I love music. And it is music.
What opens the door for that? You think?
I think that's what people believe.
But to me, what really opens the door is the silence after the music.
So once the door is opened and they walk in the room and the door is shut,
(34:34):
speaking metaphorically right now, not necessarily exactly how the program goes,
but once you open the door, which is the music, and you go inside and you shut
the door, and then you're there with yourself,
you can't look around, and you're in that moment, and you're present,
and everyone else is there.
There's this silence and connection within the room.
(34:54):
Once that first moment hits, probably about three to five minutes into the experience.
Something flips for everyone.
And there's an energy that's created where we're safe now.
We can go in and we can go deep. And really, it's those moments where I talk
through things and I share my darkest moments and teach people how to overcome
(35:17):
the different challenges in their lives.
And they're not watching themselves or worrying about other people watching them.
There's this It's this freedom that cracks them open and the music in a way
gives space in between those moments.
It's like the break, you know, it gives them the freedom to take a deep breath.
But I wouldn't say that the music itself itself is the thing that cracks them
(35:40):
open. I think it's the doorway.
Yeah. Coupled with coupled with the blindfold. I think you said it a couple
of times, like they're not worried about what people are thinking of them because
they're not looking at them or how they're acting or what their expression may be.
It's everybody's on an equal playing field. I mean, everybody was on an equal
playing field when they walked in for the most part, I guess.
(36:01):
But like, yeah, one of these major senses has been removed and that allows someone to.
I guess, dance like no one's looking kind of sense, right? Exactly.
Yeah. And to see themselves and look at inside themselves in ways that they may not do.
Because even if you try and think about yourself and focus for a little bit,
(36:22):
there's so many distractions in life, even for people who are blind, right?
Forget about what you see, but, oh, I hear a dog barking outside or,
oh my God, what's that siren? It's so easy to get distracted.
But when you're in a safe place like that, where your sight is gone and everyone's
focused, you actually have an opportunity to go within.
Yeah, that's great. I love it. Yeah, I need to be at one of those experiences,
(36:45):
Charlie. Let's do it. You're invited.
Let's match up our schedules here, right? Okay, great.
So I've had Hobie Wedler on the podcast before, and he does a similar thing.
It's Tasting in the Dark.
And Hobie is a scientist. He's totally blind.
He's a master master scientist i mean he's got taste down
like you can't believe and he was telling me a
(37:06):
story about how he had a group of like i'll just
say maybe around a hundred or so sommeliers the wine experts like this group
of wine experts and they were pairing music so he had everybody blindfolded
and these are wine experts and they gave them songs to they had like four wines,
(37:29):
or four glasses of wine.
And the first three were different.
But the fourth one was the same as one of the others.
And I think actually, I think it was the same as the third one,
like the one right before it. But they changed the song.
Between those two and the descriptions that they gave of what the wine was totally
(37:50):
different, like couldn't have been more different.
And then once it's revealed that you just had the same wine two times in a row,
like their minds were blown.
So I think that the concept of,
of the blindfold paired with the music and just the experience of that can just
totally shift your thoughts or make you think of things just completely different.
(38:13):
And I think that's, unbelievably powerful.
Yeah. I like to even think of it too, is just when you zoom out of the experience
and just think of, I'll just go my life.
I get to do that all the time because there's so many moments that I can't see.
And I have had to go inward and really ask myself those big questions because
there's nothing else going on.
(38:34):
And to me, that has been a tremendous opportunity that It has helped me grow
and really gain clarity on what I want to do in my life and what I'm passionate about.
And to me, it's been a huge gift. So that's why I say there's challenges that
come with being blind, but there's also opportunities too.
And it's really about getting comfortable enough with it so that you can be
(38:57):
open to those different opportunities.
Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the coaching thing. Who needs Charlie in their life?
What's the person look like? What are they going through? Drew?
Where are they in life that Charlie swoops in and takes care of and turns things around for us?
Well, that's sweet. One thing I would say is that I always tell my clients whenever
(39:22):
they're graduating from a program that it's not me that actually got them into
the place that they are now.
It's all the work and dedication that they put in. So the first thing I would
say is someone Someone who really wants to make a change in their life and is
committed to making a change is someone that I think is ready for working with a coach.
(39:42):
Now, what kind of change?
If they're ready to start authentically showing up as themselves with their disability,
if they're ready to shed negative belief systems that have been holding them
back, if they have really been struggling with heavy emotions around their disability
and they don't know what to do with it or don't know know how to compartmentalize it.
(40:02):
And it's making them show up in ways that are not as aligned with their desires,
all those different types of things, or even more, I don't know how to say it,
more like concrete things and less emotionally driven pieces where they want
to integrate their disability into their line of work,
but they don't know how, or they want to disclose their disability at work,
(40:22):
or maybe they're going through a challenging situation in their work environment
around their disability and they don't know how to navigate it.
Those are all different pieces as as well.
Could be a great fit for working with me. So where's the best place for people to find Charlie?
Charliekramervision.com, I suspect? That is the website. You can also follow
(40:43):
me on social media and come along for the ride there.
And I always encourage people to send me a message on Instagram and just say,
hey, and I respond to every message I get.
And you got a great following on Instagram and got some great videos,
man. You've gone viral. It's pretty awesome.
Thank you. What's the coolest video you've done? done?
Coolest one? I don't know. Coolest or one you got the most fun with, I guess, maybe.
(41:08):
Yeah, yeah. I would say if you were going to say the most views,
I would say that's not the coolest video I've done.
The video with the most views is just me walking at Disneyland with my cane
and everyone's getting out of the way. I don't think that's that cool. It's just my life.
The one I've had the most fun with was showing people how I shop at a grocery store.
It's just just really cool because I do it in such a different way, but I still do it.
(41:31):
And it shows the balance between how I use my senses other than my eyesight,
but also at different times, just use my eyesight.
And I like how it confused people. They're like, how did he know the name of that cheese?
And then I'm smelling the apples or touching the avocados to see if they're right.
So it's a cool balance there. And I really, really had fun making that video. you.
(41:52):
Making sight loss even more mysterious than it already is, I guess,
in their mind or trying to explain it, I guess, rather.
Yeah. Well, I actually like to say, let them be confused. You're allowed to be confused.
Your confusion is none of my business. I'm just going to keep doing me.
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Love it.
All right. Well, Charlie, it's been a lot of fun and I'm glad we were able to do this.
(42:17):
As I mentioned earlier, I think we're going to go out with Vision,
which is just an awesome song.
Tell me a little bit about the album and how the song came together.
Yes. Well, thanks for playing it and thanks for having me.
And the song is, it was actually done in a really cool way.
I got in the studio and I only had the title of the song.
(42:37):
It was the last song on the album. I just knew I wanted to create a song called Vision.
And then three of us, my producer, Jeremy, my cousin, Zach, and I,
we got in the studio, we had our guitars and we just blindfolded ourselves for three hours.
Like we were in the singing in the dark and we wrote the song like that.
And then we started recording it and we finished the recording the next day.
(42:59):
So it was kind of unknown.
It just, it was one of those moments
where we just trusted years of musicianship and pulled it together.
And it's one of my favorite songs that I've ever written too.
So it was a really cool experience and just talks about how,
you know, my journey with my, my blindness is something that has been both beautiful
and challenging and that I don't let it define me, but at the same time, it also defines me.
(43:20):
Music.
(47:03):
Thanks so much for spending your time with the destiny is debatable podcast.
Please rate and write a review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us
grow and reach new people.
For more information, visit john B. Grimes.com.
Destiny is debatable is a symbol of production.
(47:23):
Music.
Music.
(00:12):
Welcome to destiny is debatable a podcast and movement that will encourage you
to build your life into the one you want.
Here's your host a guy whose vision is like looking through binoculars backwards john grimes,
hey hey howdy howdy thanks for tuning in subscribing and supporting the podcast
(00:34):
experience The guest for this episode is Charlie Kramer.
Charlie, among many things in life, is a disability life coach.
And I don't know, he just has an incredible aura about himself and kind of how
he teaches people through his social media posts and things that he says and talks that he's done.
He's a pretty incredible guy and also a musician.
(00:58):
So I was doubly interested in bringing Charlie on to find out some more.
Hey, Charlie. Thanks for stopping by.
Thanks so much for having me. It's nice to be here. It is. Nice to have you
here, Charlie. It's been a long way getting this done.
We've actually been talking about this. Well, not talking, but we originally
had this scheduled for maybe a year or two ago. And just things happen.
(01:19):
And the good news is that we're both still doing the same thing a couple years
later. So yeah, agreed. I might be something about that.
Maybe we're doing good stuff. I think we are.
That must be it. Well, I hope that's the case. Yeah. Yeah.
Okay. So disability life coach, the great Charlie Kramer's here with us.
But before we get into that, Charlie, I have a few questions that I have to,
(01:39):
I'm legally obligated by my listeners to ask you to get to know Charlie.
So hang in there. Okay. Okay. I'm ready.
You're a musician, Charlie. So this is an interesting question,
I think. What is your favorite band or type of music?
That's a big question for me. I would say if I have to choose one band,
it's definitely The Who.
(02:01):
I've seen them the most times in concert. Actually, I've seen them four times.
I never saw them with Entwistle, unfortunately, but I've seen and with Roger
Daltrey and Pete Townsend.
And, you know, it's been amazing every single time. But I love a lot of type
of music, you know, bluegrass.
And, you know, I listen to a lot of like Irish and Scottish modern folk type stuff.
(02:26):
And you name it, I listen to it, honestly.
Okay, cool. Yeah. All right. What about reading?
Do you have a favorite book or type of book or author? I don't do a lot of reading.
It's never really been my thing.
But I recently listened to the audio book of Matthew McConaughey called Greenlights.
(02:48):
Yeah. Okay. So did you like that? It was great. It was great. I loved it. Yeah.
And it's kind of sparked a drive in me to start listening to some more audio books as well.
It's actually on my list of things to read.
It's great. Yeah. I like Matthew. He's an interesting guy. I'd recommend it for sure.
Okay, if you could have coffee with two other people in history,
(03:11):
who would they be and what do you think you'd talk about?
The first person would, you know, I, for the listeners, this might be more of
a boring answer, but for me, this is the truth.
I would bring my partner, Greta, without a doubt.
Well, we're interested in the truth, so let's have it. Yeah.
Yeah. I would definitely bring Greta with me.
(03:33):
She's my life partner and someone that I always want to have around.
And I also would bring my grandfather.
We call him Papa Sean. He passed away when I was five years old and has this,
I don't know, there's just some kind of connection there that's always guided me.
And I've always felt super drawn to him, even though I didn't,
(03:55):
you know, I was so young when he passed away.
So I'd want to have the two of them there, have a cup of coffee,
maybe even let it be a pint of Guinness, you know, and just relax and enjoy
and connect with them and reflect.
Who has been the best coach or guiding influence in your life?
I think both of my parents in different ways.
(04:17):
I've definitely had people outside of my parents who have been really helpful
and I've hired coaches and I've worked with therapists and there's been so many people along the way.
And I really think that a lot of what I've learned in life has come from my parents.
And I will also give a special shout out to my mom too because she has retinitis pigmentosa like I do.
(04:41):
So I've grown up with a role model of how to live life and a lot of what I teach
and a lot of the way that I live and I learned it from her you know and I get
to have that blessing so I would definitely say my parents for sure.
If you could give your 19 year old self some advice what would it be and do
(05:02):
you think you would listen?
The second part of that question is fantastic. Do I think I would listen?
Actually, I think I probably would.
I've always been fascinated with being a person of value.
I used to live by this quote, try not to be a man of success,
(05:23):
but rather a man of value.
And that was always what I lived my life by.
And it was how in high school you have that little quote next to
your picture on your senior year you know that was my quote okay so
judging off of that i think i would have wanted to learn from
myself i hope i the
advice that i would give myself is just to be patient
(05:44):
and to not not to mean be patient as don't try and let everything come to you
but work really hard but try to expect less and be patient with the progress
because i'm actually really proud to to be where I am today.
And I'm proud of the person that I am.
And I think sometimes throughout my younger years, I wanted to do too much too soon.
(06:09):
And I think if I took more time to just go, it's all happening,
look at it happening and take a step back, I might even be farther along,
and potentially not farther along, but more grounded within who I am and what
I do and feel feel even a deeper sense of self-worth,
which I already have a very strong sense of worth, but it can only be improved,
(06:32):
you know? So I think that would be it.
Great. You've reached the end of the contractually obligated questions.
Cool. Good job. Yeah. Signed, sealed, delivered.
Okay, so disability life coach. I also want to throw in there a musician,
which I think is super cool too.
So how do those two, what is a disability life coach? What does that mean?
(06:53):
Essentially, the work I do is I help people with disabilities to live a confident life,
to learn how to integrate their disability into their lives,
to accept it, to live based off of what they desire and what they know that
they need rather than the lies of what people say we're capable of.
And for some people, that means really big goals. But other times,
(07:15):
it just means asking for the accommodations that we need in life,
asking Asking for or gaining the confidence
to start using a mobility tool or a cane or to work through the process of going
to the doctor or how to disclose your disability in the workplace or even how
(07:37):
to disclose your disability when you're dating someone. All those different things come into play.
But really, it's building up the core of who you are and feeling confident and
proud in who you are, not despite your disability, but with it.
And I do that through one-on-one programs, through a group program called Confidently
(07:57):
Disabled. And I have people that I work with continually, like in a continuation program.
And yeah, that's, I'd say, a good summary of what my work includes and what
it does. Yes. How much does fear play a role in that coaching?
I mean, everybody has fear in life, but it's harnessing that and knowing where
(08:21):
the boundaries are, particularly,
I guess, with people with disabilities, the fear of being discovered or being
not enough or you are less of a person, all those kinds of things.
I mean, as a guy with a disability myself, which my My disabilities are mostly invisible to others.
So there is the question about when do I disclose? How do I disclose?
(08:44):
Is it, do I need to disclose ever in certain circumstances? Yeah.
Are these types of things that come out in coaching sessions with you and the
people that you work with? Yeah, definitely.
I'd say a lot of this stuff is maybe halfway through a program or a little bit
later on with how to disclose or what to say and what not to say.
First thing that we need to do is we need
(09:06):
to get really clear on what thoughts
and belief systems are our own
and what have been guided through societal norms
through ableism and what of that have you internalized to believe about yourself
that maybe you think i'm not good enough i'm not a partner that someone would
(09:28):
want to be with because of my disability or no one wants to to hire me because
of my disability or, you know.
Maybe I shouldn't take a step out and really show my full authentic self because
people will reject it and they won't accommodate for what I actually need.
These are all belief systems, some of which are built upon experiences and traumas
(09:48):
that have happened that are real.
And it's about identifying and differentiating what those trauma-informed belief
systems are and what the true belief systems of what you're capable are.
And once you've separated those two things and you make it really clear,
then it's easier to compartmentalize the fear and to look at it as,
(10:11):
okay, I'm so glad that I know what I'm afraid of here.
And how can I strategically take steps to work through it at a pace that is
comfortable and doable for me? And that is something that I think a lot of people struggle with.
They look at the goal and they look at where they are and they go, I can't do it.
(10:31):
It looks too big. And my job is to help create steps that are small enough and
actionable enough that they can take steps over time to get there.
How does coaching compare to therapy?
What's the difference? Yeah. So therapy is really built around talking and working
(10:52):
through the trauma in our lives to get to a point where we may not repeat those actions over time.
And a lot of times a therapist's job is to help us understand and help us learn
on our own. What I mean by that is one of the biggest questions that a therapist
will act is, and how does that make you feel?
(11:12):
What do you think about that? Because
they're guiding you to your own self-reflection and self-realization.
And I actually am a big fan of this. And I'm in therapy myself.
I have been for years. I deeply believe in it.
And I also believe in people giving giving us direct advice and systems.
I think the two of those things together are really important.
(11:35):
That's what coaching is more of.
Feedback. This is what's going on. Okay. Are you ready for some feedback and
some next steps? If the answer is yes, great. Here's what we're going to do.
I think we need to identify these things. I think we need to take actions here.
We need to stop doing this, more of that, whatever it might be so that there's
(11:57):
a clear path and a plan forward that you can start acting on.
So coaching is more action-based and solution-driven.
And therapy, even though it is solution-driven, is more of a a self-discovery
experience that you're guided in a safe space where coaching can sometimes even
feel more intense because I'm asking you to step out of your comfort zone,
(12:19):
you know, and it's an agreement between each other to do that.
Okay. And so you mentioned therapy that you've done over the years.
Your disability, I suspect, has a lot to do with the need for that therapy.
Kind of explain RP, retinitis pigmentosa, also called RP for short,
to somebody that maybe doesn't understand what that means.
Totally. And I actually want to take a step back and say that I've actually
(12:42):
not spent a lot of time in therapy talking about my vision loss because by the
time that I actually went into therapy,
I had already accepted and built up self-worth around my blindness.
I'd been using my cane for years.
And I think a lot of that is to do with the fact that I have family members
that have the same thing that I do.
(13:02):
And that is retinitis pigmentosa, which is essentially a degenerative disease
that runs in my family. It's a dominant gene.
And it means that you got a 50-50 coin flip of whether or not you're going to
have it. And you lose your peripheral vision over time.
So I see like I'm looking through a straw at this point. I have 4% of my vision remaining.
(13:26):
And I also have night blindness because of it. So I don't see anything in the dark.
Obviously, if there's a light, I see the light. But if it's completely dark.
Your eyes would adjust. Mine never do.
And then I've got tons of other fun things that come along with it,
like cataracts and sensitivity to the light and floaters and all,
you know, you name it, right?
I'm a little bit colorblind and things that I discover every single day that
(13:49):
are new. And, you know, I go, wow, that's unique.
And then I, you know, adapt to it and work through it.
But that's a pretty general description of retinitis. One of those cool things
that you got passed down through your family.
Yeah, it's just for me, I look at it as something that's a part of my life and it makes me who I am.
You know, I don't look at it as a burden. There's moments that it does challenge me greatly. And,
(14:15):
I've gotten to a place in my life where I'm excited about those challenges.
That's good. The podcast used to be called Ambiguously Blind.
And some of the posts I've seen from you and some of the things I know about
you, you can relate to being ambiguously blind or, you know,
like this is an audio only podcast.
Charlie and I are both wearing glasses. I mean, other than being devastatingly
(14:37):
handsome, we're both wearing glasses, which I think would boggle the mind of
some people that if you told them that you were blind, but but you're wearing corrective lenses.
How do you explain that, Charlie? Well, it depends if I want to explain it or not.
This is a scenario that I definitely will, but something I work on with my own
life and also with other people is the freedom to be like, sometimes it's none
(14:59):
of anyone's business and that's okay.
If somebody comes up to me and says, wow, I see that you're using a cane and
you're also wearing glasses.
And I was just so curious if you could tell me about that.
It depends on whether or not I'm going to answer that question.
Sometimes I just want my coffee and I'm going to be like, hey,
thanks so much for asking the question. I really appreciate your curiosity.
(15:22):
I'm not open to talking about it right now, but follow me on Instagram if you
want to learn more or maybe another time or thanks so much.
And my name's Charlie, by the way, and talk to you. See you later.
And end the conversation.
So sometimes I'll do that that because I don't have to be a walking description
and lesson point for people.
And sometimes I'm open to it and I want to answer.
(15:45):
And obviously this is one of those moments we're talking about it,
but I just wanted to give that example and that freedom to people because I
think it's really important.
Yeah. And I think it's important that you also, you don't have to,
you know, you may, we may be the only person that somebody meets that has RP
or some sort a visual impairment.
So there's also a little bit of a balance there where I don't.
(16:07):
Necessarily want to give the wrong impression about a person that has a visual
impairment or something.
But at the same time, I don't, you know, like you just said,
I'm just here to get my coffee.
So I have to go and I don't, you know, this is probably a longer,
this takes a lot longer to actually talk about probably than what I have time
for right now. Like this is, I'm going, you're probably going.
(16:29):
So let's, you know, here, here's how to connect with me. Let's,
let's talk about it some other time. Sure. But that's if you're open to it.
Sorry to interrupt. I would say that's if you want to take on that responsibility
where I think sometimes people get confused where if you do have a disability,
it doesn't mean that you have to be a spokesperson for your disability if you don't want to be.
(16:52):
Now, I think you and I are people that enjoy that. And so oftentimes I will answer.
And my answer, if they're asking about my glasses, I go, you know,
I see like I'm looking through a straw.
The glasses correct what's in the straw. It's helpful. They turn into sunglasses.
Thanks for asking. Have a great day. And no matter what, however I respond,
it's just with kindness and openness and, you know, gratitude for the good intentions.
(17:17):
Yeah. It's like all the emails have been exchanging your signatures, sending love.
So I definitely get that aura, that vibe from you. So I don't imagine you're
going to, you know, irritate anybody.
But at the same time, you're right. Just because it doesn't even have to be a disability.
Somebody could ask anybody a question and you just aren't in the mood to answer
or you just don't feel like you... We have privacy, right?
(17:39):
We don't have to talk about everything. We're not on the couch all the time.
And maybe we're not ready to get that deep or unveil that part of our life to just a random person.
Definitely. And some things are private. But it's interesting, right?
This is the invisible disability aspect. suspect because if you go up to someone
(17:59):
and you say, hey, so I heard you went to the doctor recently.
How was that doctor visit? What's your medical history like?
That's not what you would ask somebody, right? That's very abnormal.
But that's essentially what you're asking when you say, hey,
I noticed you're blind. Tell me your life story.
You're like, well, let me open
up my medical file. So I think if you think about it that way, it's okay.
(18:21):
So if you ask, no worries, is just be open to the fact that they might not want
to answer and that's okay.
And, you know, it's no big deal in either direction.
Yeah, I think kind of on that same trajectory there, are there things in general
working with people with disabilities or in particular sight loss,
are there things that you wish people knew.
(18:44):
About people with a disability or with sight loss?
Yeah, I think a lot of people assume that sight loss is the same for everyone,
that it looks the same or that the experiences are the same.
And that's just not the case.
I also want people to get really comfortable with the idea that.
(19:05):
People are allowed to use canes or mobility tools, even if they can still see
something. I think that's a really big one.
The thought process of, well, you either have to have no sight or you can't
use the cane is wild to me because it helps me so much.
I want people to understand that's no big deal and to not think,
(19:26):
oh, he's taking advantage or he's faking it.
No, I'm using this so I don't run you over in the middle of the street. You should be grateful.
And then the other thing too is that just because someone has a disability doesn't
mean they automatically want pity or that you should feel sorry for them because
a lot of us with disabilities are used to it.
(19:47):
And again, it's an integrated part of our lives that sometimes can be challenging
and can pose different problems, but it's not always a problem.
It's not always a challenge, and it doesn't overwhelm our thoughts every day.
Now, for some people in the beginning or different moments, it does.
And that's when you would want that person to work with a professional, a coach or a therapist.
(20:11):
But most of the time, we're just doing our thing. You know, we're living life
and we're enjoying and we're doing things differently.
But different is not always worse. And I think it doesn't also,
at least for me, mean that we always need help or always want help anyway.
You know, we do things differently and sometimes we're very comfortable with
how we do things. just like people like the way they have routines and do things.
(20:35):
And I feel like there's been times where somebody's offered help to me and I've
refused it politely, of course.
And I feel like they have a like, wow, guys, disingenuous or he doesn't appreciate
anything I'm doing or I'm trying to help the guy and he doesn't want help.
But I mean, independence is a big thing for anybody, but particularly people,
(20:57):
and at least speaking for myself, that I value my independence.
And there certainly are things I need help with and occasionally ask help for
and all that kind of stuff.
You know, that happens. happens, but I wish that people would respect a no and
just kind of move on with it. I agree.
That's a big one. I really am very glad that you said it. I'm curious how you
(21:21):
feel when somebody says, are you sure?
Are you sure? A bunch of times. Does that irk you as much as it irks me?
So it's like, you know, I mean, again, this is where do we have,
how much time do we have here?
Right. With this person I'm standing next to, I don't, do you have the next
25 minutes for me to give you my whole life story and tell you what I've been
through and what I've been doing. So, yeah, I mean, and sometimes it's weird,
(21:43):
too, because those things can come from people that, you know, really well.
Right. Right. Could be a partner or a sister or a brother or a parent or somebody
that really just just really wants to just help you.
But at the same time, you know, I just got to do this my way.
I want to do the way I want to do what I'm doing.
And this is just how I do it. And I know there's probably an easier way to do it.
(22:03):
But this is what I do and sometimes it's
hard to maybe the closer the person is
to you it's the harder it is to push them away or say no
because just out of love they they want but help but there's there's a respect
thing that you have to have and stand up for yourself and sometimes that's I
found it difficult to I found the no answer to be difficult for them to receive
(22:28):
that and And it's like, I don't understand this. What's going on here?
I couldn't agree more. And the way that I like to explain it to people is building a puzzle.
Sometimes you want help with the puzzle.
But most of the time, you don't want to hand someone the puzzle that you just
bought, have them go build it for you, frame it, and bring it back.
(22:50):
That's not why you bought the puzzle. No, that is not why you bought the puzzle.
That's not why they bought the puzzle.
So I want people to get comfortable with allowing people to work through their own puzzles in life.
I like that. That's good. And really be understanding of that.
Because for me, when I'm walking around and banging my cane against things, like I'm having a blast.
(23:12):
I'm figuring it out, you know? Don't turn the lights on. Like I am learning
how to use my cane right now in a way that I never have before maybe. And I'm enjoying it.
So if you say, let me turn the lights on. I say, no, I'm enjoying this.
Like, no, really, it'll be easier. No, the answer is no.
Because there could be a time where they're not there to turn the lights on.
(23:32):
Exactly. And you need to know what to do in those situations,
not to mention that you just want to be able to put the puzzle together yourself,
which like you said, that's why I got the puzzle to begin with.
That's why I got the puzzle, right?
Yeah, 100%. And you're talking about the white cane. What is your relationship
with the white cane been? Was it an immediate acceptance?
Was there a journey for that? Or how did that work for you? Big journey. Big journey.
(23:57):
My family, as I know I've given them a lot of praise in this podcast,
I will also say that my family,
built into societal norms and expectations and ableism,
I would say have learned to assimilate and act like their disabilities are invisible
more than stand out and be authentically what they are and who they need to
(24:20):
be with their disabilities.
So what that has meant is that instead of using a cane,
they've hung onto the arm of their partner or walked around and acted like they
could see things or aggressively look at the ground and try and scan and move
really quickly or do more than they actually could to make it seem like they were okay.
(24:41):
But everyone, you're like, we're not fooling anyone, right?
So I have aunts and uncles and even times my mom at different moments had tried to do that.
But I will say that she's gone on a journey of using her cane more often and
has always used it a little bit more than others in the family.
And I went through that same journey. I just wanted to be a normal teenager.
(25:03):
I had my moments of wanting to be in my 20s and go out at night and not have to hang on to my friends.
And eventually, I got to a place where I realized, what am I doing here?
This is ridiculous. Just use the cane and enjoy it. And honestly,
ever since I've made that shift, my life has infinitely improved on so many levels.
(25:25):
And I think people would automatically think, wow, it must be so easy to navigate.
That's the biggest difference. That's probably the smallest amount of impact.
The biggest amount of impact has been my connection to my identity with my disability,
my self-worth, my self-confidence, my knowingness in who I am.
(25:46):
All those things have skyrocketed. And with that, opportunities in life have
come too, because I'm putting out better energy into the world because I feel
I have a better relationship to myself and my disability.
And that's been my story and my journey with it. But for some people,
the most authentic thing to do is to not use a cane or a mobility tool.
And that's fine. It really depends.
(26:09):
But I've loved it. And a lot of people call it a white cane.
I have every color of the rainbow of a cane. So I tend to call it a blind cane
or only a white cane when I'm using it because it can be confusing if I'm using
a blue or a black or a green cane and I call it a white cane.
They're like, what are you talking about? It's green.
Or you could just say, well, I'm blind. So you tell me what color.
(26:30):
It is that's right yeah what about you similar
story so i don't really use one vision
the whole spectrum thing is pretty for
me it would be an identification so it would be so others know i can see just
enough to be dangerous is what i like to say totally blind in my right eye and
have about 2300 in my my left eye
(26:52):
and i mean i ride a bike by myself which boggle you know it's It's like,
he's wearing corrective lenses and he's riding a bike. The guy's not blind.
So probably the biggest thing, like if I'm standing at Starbucks and I'm waiting
for my drink and I have a cane in my hand, it's pretty easy for me to get assistance
in finding the cup that has my name on it, right?
(27:15):
If I'm crossing the street as a pedestrian, it's pretty easy for cars to understand
that this guy doesn't see very well or not at all.
Other than that there's not been a
ton of benefits in my life to to use
the cane so you know i think
when i'm in public areas airports places where
(27:36):
i've got to explain things that aren't obvious that's where it comes in handy
for as an identification but for getting around most places you know i guess
for the most part i'm okay but i do recognize that i think in kind of what you
described or maybe another way to say it is we talked about independence earlier.
I think the white cane can be a tremendous source of independence.
(28:00):
It is, yeah. For somebody that uses it. Have you experienced that? Oh, yeah. Yeah.
I'm a very independent person and all the work that I've done travel-wise throughout
my life, I've pretty much done it by myself.
I navigate through airports and through different cities, and I've even gone
on a vacation to Ireland and England by myself, completely alone.
(28:26):
I went for two weeks to Europe by myself two years ago when my vision was pretty
similar to what it is now.
And I don't think I could have done that without my cane.
Now, there's still moments where people came up to me and grabbed me or tried
to help me when I didn't need it. But for the most part, it helped me.
It just gives me a sense of confidence and structure and foundation that I personally really like.
(28:51):
But again, that's me. I've found that sometimes Sometimes independence can also
come as like a fight to keep what you had.
Like I want what I've always known and I don't want to let go,
right? Like grasping on.
Sure. Yeah. And you know, that can, that can happen in both directions.
Like sometimes I need to let go of my cane and do something without it.
(29:13):
And I feel like I don't want to let go. Right.
Or the other way of like, I don't want to use my cane right now. Like I don't need it.
I don't need it. And sometimes I struggle with that when I go to friends' houses
or someone's house for dinner or something like that, because in my home,
I don't use my cane. I know where everything is. I don't need it.
But when I walk into someone else's home, the last thing I want to do is knock
(29:35):
over their great aunt Sally. That would be bad.
That would not be good. so I've learned even though it's really uncomfortable
that's probably the point where I'm like I don't want to use my cane right now
I use it in the beginning to at least map it and that was a big transition for
me yeah I can relate to that particularly.
(29:58):
Something else that you do, and I guess it's in the coaching or whatever realm
you work in, is the singing in the dark as we transition to music.
So I am enamored by your music. And we do have a song. You've given us a song to play.
We'll play it at the end of the episode here, Vision, which is a super cool song.
I've been jamming out to for the last couple of days now.
(30:18):
No, thanks. Talk to me about singing in the dark and how you incorporate that
into your approach to coaching and speaking. speaking.
Definitely. Well, in a way, we almost have to reverse engineer because the music
came before the coaching.
So I grew up in the Jewish world and the reformed Jewish world.
(30:40):
So I grew up going to summer camp and Jewish summer camp and my synagogue.
And there was always someone playing the guitar. I learned how to play the guitar.
And they said, hey, why don't you just play while we're doing this stuff?
And I said, great, that's going to be way more fun than just just being here.
And I eventually learned to love it and started to connect with my spirituality in a big way.
(31:01):
And I began writing music and then I would travel around to different communities
and organizations and share that music.
And eventually, I learned and realized that I wasn't being my full authentic
self as a musician or as a person because I wasn't integrating my blindness.
So So everything was kind of connecting.
(31:22):
I was traveling to different places, sharing my music with them and telling
no one about my vision loss.
They had no idea. I wasn't using a cane, nothing. No one had any idea.
So eventually, I gained the confidence in myself to stand out there.
And then I started integrating my blindness and my vision loss into my music and started,
(31:44):
The first way that I did that was by creating a blindfolded singing and healing
experience called Singing in the Dark.
Essentially what it is, it's 45 minutes to an hour of people with blindfolds on.
They are guided into the space, so they don't know what the room looks like.
I'm already in there with other musicians potentially or just myself,
(32:06):
and I'm playing music and guiding them in.
And there's people actually guiding them in the way that you're supposed to
guide people who are blind or visually impaired. They get sat down.
They have no idea where they are. And then for the next hour to 45 minutes to
an hour, I basically take them through a musical experience where the music
is almost there to bring them into the room because they think it's going to be about the music.
(32:28):
But really, it's about learning how to sing in the dark. How do we learn to
use our negative experiences and our challenges in our lives to bring lessons
and opportunities for growth?
And that's what I've done to guide people through that. So at this point,
(32:48):
with that teaching, I was already a certified mindfulness instructor.
I'd been leading spiritual communities for a long time. And through that experience
of singing in the dark, I really learned that my biggest passion in life was
helping people to unlock their greatness.
And then I realized, I've been in this Jewish space for so long.
(33:09):
It's been so beautiful for me, but I want to help other people with disabilities
that I saw all around me, even my family, that are struggling to just say,
hey, this is me, and I'm cool with that.
And that's where the coaching journey began.
And I got certified and trained in coaching and improved skill sets.
(33:30):
And then it's really taken off from there. And now it's my full-time work.
So I still travel and go to different communities and I'll do Singing in the Dark.
And I've done Singing in the Dark for a thousand people in 25.
The spectrum is super wide. And I'd say each time is powerful and amazing because
you get to feel in the room without seeing it what people are going through.
(33:52):
And they get to make space for the growth that they want to achieve in their
life without having to have people watch them go through that experience.
But then they're also surrounded by everyone doing that at the same time.
So it's very communal. And it's also very personal.
And I love it. I love doing Singing in the Dark to this day.
So do you think music is the key there?
(34:12):
I mean, I just I'm a music dork. I love music. And it is music.
What opens the door for that? You think?
I think that's what people believe.
But to me, what really opens the door is the silence after the music.
So once the door is opened and they walk in the room and the door is shut,
(34:34):
speaking metaphorically right now, not necessarily exactly how the program goes,
but once you open the door, which is the music, and you go inside and you shut
the door, and then you're there with yourself,
you can't look around, and you're in that moment, and you're present,
and everyone else is there.
There's this silence and connection within the room.
(34:54):
Once that first moment hits, probably about three to five minutes into the experience.
Something flips for everyone.
And there's an energy that's created where we're safe now.
We can go in and we can go deep. And really, it's those moments where I talk
through things and I share my darkest moments and teach people how to overcome
(35:17):
the different challenges in their lives.
And they're not watching themselves or worrying about other people watching them.
There's this It's this freedom that cracks them open and the music in a way
gives space in between those moments.
It's like the break, you know, it gives them the freedom to take a deep breath.
But I wouldn't say that the music itself itself is the thing that cracks them
(35:40):
open. I think it's the doorway.
Yeah. Coupled with coupled with the blindfold. I think you said it a couple
of times, like they're not worried about what people are thinking of them because
they're not looking at them or how they're acting or what their expression may be.
It's everybody's on an equal playing field. I mean, everybody was on an equal
playing field when they walked in for the most part, I guess.
(36:01):
But like, yeah, one of these major senses has been removed and that allows someone to.
I guess, dance like no one's looking kind of sense, right? Exactly.
Yeah. And to see themselves and look at inside themselves in ways that they may not do.
Because even if you try and think about yourself and focus for a little bit,
(36:22):
there's so many distractions in life, even for people who are blind, right?
Forget about what you see, but, oh, I hear a dog barking outside or,
oh my God, what's that siren? It's so easy to get distracted.
But when you're in a safe place like that, where your sight is gone and everyone's
focused, you actually have an opportunity to go within.
Yeah, that's great. I love it. Yeah, I need to be at one of those experiences,
(36:45):
Charlie. Let's do it. You're invited.
Let's match up our schedules here, right? Okay, great.
So I've had Hobie Wedler on the podcast before, and he does a similar thing.
It's Tasting in the Dark.
And Hobie is a scientist. He's totally blind.
He's a master master scientist i mean he's got taste down
like you can't believe and he was telling me a
(37:06):
story about how he had a group of like i'll just
say maybe around a hundred or so sommeliers the wine experts like this group
of wine experts and they were pairing music so he had everybody blindfolded
and these are wine experts and they gave them songs to they had like four wines,
(37:29):
or four glasses of wine.
And the first three were different.
But the fourth one was the same as one of the others.
And I think actually, I think it was the same as the third one,
like the one right before it. But they changed the song.
Between those two and the descriptions that they gave of what the wine was totally
(37:50):
different, like couldn't have been more different.
And then once it's revealed that you just had the same wine two times in a row,
like their minds were blown.
So I think that the concept of,
of the blindfold paired with the music and just the experience of that can just
totally shift your thoughts or make you think of things just completely different.
(38:13):
And I think that's, unbelievably powerful.
Yeah. I like to even think of it too, is just when you zoom out of the experience
and just think of, I'll just go my life.
I get to do that all the time because there's so many moments that I can't see.
And I have had to go inward and really ask myself those big questions because
there's nothing else going on.
(38:34):
And to me, that has been a tremendous opportunity that It has helped me grow
and really gain clarity on what I want to do in my life and what I'm passionate about.
And to me, it's been a huge gift. So that's why I say there's challenges that
come with being blind, but there's also opportunities too.
And it's really about getting comfortable enough with it so that you can be
(38:57):
open to those different opportunities.
Okay. So let's talk a little bit about the coaching thing. Who needs Charlie in their life?
What's the person look like? What are they going through? Drew?
Where are they in life that Charlie swoops in and takes care of and turns things around for us?
Well, that's sweet. One thing I would say is that I always tell my clients whenever
(39:22):
they're graduating from a program that it's not me that actually got them into
the place that they are now.
It's all the work and dedication that they put in. So the first thing I would
say is someone Someone who really wants to make a change in their life and is
committed to making a change is someone that I think is ready for working with a coach.
(39:42):
Now, what kind of change?
If they're ready to start authentically showing up as themselves with their disability,
if they're ready to shed negative belief systems that have been holding them
back, if they have really been struggling with heavy emotions around their disability
and they don't know what to do with it or don't know know how to compartmentalize it.
(40:02):
And it's making them show up in ways that are not as aligned with their desires,
all those different types of things, or even more, I don't know how to say it,
more like concrete things and less emotionally driven pieces where they want
to integrate their disability into their line of work,
but they don't know how, or they want to disclose their disability at work,
(40:22):
or maybe they're going through a challenging situation in their work environment
around their disability and they don't know how to navigate it.
Those are all different pieces as as well.
Could be a great fit for working with me. So where's the best place for people to find Charlie?
Charliekramervision.com, I suspect? That is the website. You can also follow
(40:43):
me on social media and come along for the ride there.
And I always encourage people to send me a message on Instagram and just say,
hey, and I respond to every message I get.
And you got a great following on Instagram and got some great videos,
man. You've gone viral. It's pretty awesome.
Thank you. What's the coolest video you've done? done?
Coolest one? I don't know. Coolest or one you got the most fun with, I guess, maybe.
(41:08):
Yeah, yeah. I would say if you were going to say the most views,
I would say that's not the coolest video I've done.
The video with the most views is just me walking at Disneyland with my cane
and everyone's getting out of the way. I don't think that's that cool. It's just my life.
The one I've had the most fun with was showing people how I shop at a grocery store.
It's just just really cool because I do it in such a different way, but I still do it.
(41:31):
And it shows the balance between how I use my senses other than my eyesight,
but also at different times, just use my eyesight.
And I like how it confused people. They're like, how did he know the name of that cheese?
And then I'm smelling the apples or touching the avocados to see if they're right.
So it's a cool balance there. And I really, really had fun making that video. you.
(41:52):
Making sight loss even more mysterious than it already is, I guess,
in their mind or trying to explain it, I guess, rather.
Yeah. Well, I actually like to say, let them be confused. You're allowed to be confused.
Your confusion is none of my business. I'm just going to keep doing me.
Yeah, that's right. That's right. Love it.
All right. Well, Charlie, it's been a lot of fun and I'm glad we were able to do this.
(42:17):
As I mentioned earlier, I think we're going to go out with Vision,
which is just an awesome song.
Tell me a little bit about the album and how the song came together.
Yes. Well, thanks for playing it and thanks for having me.
And the song is, it was actually done in a really cool way.
I got in the studio and I only had the title of the song.
(42:37):
It was the last song on the album. I just knew I wanted to create a song called Vision.
And then three of us, my producer, Jeremy, my cousin, Zach, and I,
we got in the studio, we had our guitars and we just blindfolded ourselves for three hours.
Like we were in the singing in the dark and we wrote the song like that.
And then we started recording it and we finished the recording the next day.
(42:59):
So it was kind of unknown.
It just, it was one of those moments
where we just trusted years of musicianship and pulled it together.
And it's one of my favorite songs that I've ever written too.
So it was a really cool experience and just talks about how,
you know, my journey with my, my blindness is something that has been both beautiful
and challenging and that I don't let it define me, but at the same time, it also defines me.
(43:20):
Music.
(47:03):
Thanks so much for spending your time with the destiny is debatable podcast.
Please rate and write a review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us
grow and reach new people.
For more information, visit john B. Grimes.com.
Destiny is debatable is a symbol of production.
(47:23):
Music.
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Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.