February 14, 2025 • 59 mins
DJ, producer, musician, and founder of one of the most influential independent record labels, Daniel Miller began his journey in 1976, just as punk was shaking Britain to its core. Returning to London that spring, he threw himself into the movement, drawn to its urgency, rebellion, and creative freedom.
Hearing The Ramones’ debut on John Peel’s radio show was a revelation, and solidified his love for music that defied convention. A few years later, inspired by the experimental sounds of Can and Faust, he recorded his first single as The Normal: Warm Leatherette, a cold, mechanical, dystopian anthem, which became an unintentional underground hit.
“The big saying at the time was, ‘All you need is a guitar and three chords.’ My thing was, three chords were far too many. You can just have one finger on a keyboard and still make an interesting sound. Which I thought was more punk than being in a traditional rock band.” (Daniel Miller)
After a short tour, he returned home to find a pile of demo tapes from an unknown artist named Fad Gadget on his doorstep. That moment sparked the birth of Mute Records, a record label that would redefine electronic and experimental music, and the rest is history.
A true maverick, Miller has never chased trends or commercial success over everything else, instead championing artists who push boundaries and the very definition of music. From the industrial provocations of Throbbing Gristle and Laibach to the groundbreaking synth-pop of Depeche Mode, Yazoo, and Erasure, his influence is woven into the fabric of modern music, and his pursuit of originality remains as relentless as ever.
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(00:00):
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us.online@infinityofomaha.com today be.
Right back. I think the limitation is always
(00:21):
your creativity, the level of your ideas.
If you've got a great idea, A4 track or a laptop or a phone is
a great way of doing it but doesn't make music better unless
you were. There, it's almost impossible to
comprehend how the punk movementof 76 and 77 swallowed the
country whole. The wildfire ignited by London
(00:42):
bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Generation X and Suiting
the Banshees reached far beyond the capital in cities up and
down the country. The Flame The revolution was
swept forward by a new wave of post punk excitement that would
revolutionize the next wave of sound.
Inspired by the experimental pulse of bands like Craftwork,
(01:03):
Can Noi and Tangerine Dream. Fueled by a rejection of prog
rocks indulgent excess, a new generation of artists that
merged who embraced a more futuristic agenda.
The punk ethos of Do It Yourselfwasn't just about 3 chords and a
sneer, it was about changing theworld.
Capitalizing on the rise of cheap technology, this inspired
(01:25):
group of Mavericks from Fat Gadget Throbbing Gristle used
makeshift instrumentation and living room recording studios to
make music even more urgent and real.
In episode 8, we meet someone who rode this spiraling energy
and channelled it into a lifelong passion to help artists
and musicians of every inclination survive, prosper,
(01:47):
and thrive. I'm Richard Smith, I'm an art
director, a filmmaker, and I'm your host.
Welcome to Destroy England 1976.They are broke rockers.
Disillusioned youth. Raw.
Outrageous and crude. Anarchy.
Striking miners. The new praise they tell.
(02:09):
Me mountains of rubbish, the winter of discontent.
Worthless. Nasty.
Societal decline, no future chaos?
There, I hear her. Welcome to Destroy, a podcast
about how the punk movement of 1976 or the Cultural Revolution
still being felt today. You.
(02:30):
Have to destroy in order to create.
Destroy is produced by B Right Back Studios, a full service
video and podcast production company that specializes in
making music videos for up and coming bands and musicians.
Visit brightbackstudios.com/destroy to
learn more. If you're enjoying the show,
visit our website destroypunkpodcast.com to learn
(02:52):
more about every episode, including interview transcripts,
show notes, music videos, curated playlists and more.
Thank you for listening. My guest today has been in love
with electronic music for over 50 years.
He's a producer, ADJ and a musician.
He's also the owner of one of the most successful Independent
(03:13):
Record labels, which he started in 1978.
He's also been responsible for cultivating the careers of so
many notable bands and musicians, including Depeche
Mode, Moby, Yazoo, Lie Back, FatGadget, The Liars, and even his
own as The Normal Silicon Teens and Sunroof.
Please welcome to the show Mute Records founder Daniel Miller.
(03:35):
Daniel, amazing to chat with youtoday.
Thank you for being on the show.My pleasure, Richard, Thank you
for inviting me. You're welcome.
So it's been a long time since we spoken, and something I was
really struck by recently was inthe book you published the The
Visual History of Mute. Your quote, Electronic music was
(03:57):
like punk. I kind of wanted to allow start
there and understand that. I suppose my thing was the big.
Saying at the time, I think it was Mark Perry who quoted it was
all you need to do is get a guitar and learn 3 chords.
My thing was three chords of fartoo many and you can just have
one. You're going to have one finger
on a keyboard to make an interesting sound, which I
(04:19):
thought was more punk than beingin a traditional rock band.
I saw someone say something recently about the state of
music today, something along thelines of you can record an album
or whatever on a phone, you can just record it in your living
room, in your bedroom. And they presented that as
something new. But then I thought to myself, it
(04:41):
always has been that accessible.Well, it hasn't always been that
accessible, but at the time I was starting out it became much
more accessible. There were less expensive 4
track machines available. Yeah.
I mean, my first record was recorded in the bedroom.
But then I know other people like Robert Rental who I were
with later. His was done in his maybe his
(05:03):
bedroom, possibly his living room, but definitely at home,
same as Thomas Lear. All people were, even if it
wasn't literally at home, it wasin improvised studios.
They weren't in conventional recording studios.
They might have been in a a roomin a warehouse somewhere from
Mcgristle, Cabaret, Voltaire. Those people, none of them
worked in conventional recordingstudios, so they're all done in
(05:25):
a very DIY way. So yeah, that's what makes me
smile really. When, when people say, of
course, now it's even easier. But I think looking back to
those days, if you look from today backwards, yeah, to those
days, you think, you know, it was a limitation that really
made the music, right. But actually having a four track
machine where I could overdub was definitely not a limitation.
(05:47):
It was a revelation. And looking back now that you
obviously, you know, when you'reusing a laptop or a phone that
you've got endless number of tracks.
And so I think the limitation isalways your creativity, really
the level, the level of your ideas.
Your originality. Originality.
If you've got a great idea, 4 track or a laptop or a phone is
(06:08):
a great way of doing it. If you just enjoy making music
for the sake of it that's not particularly original, then it's
the same thing. Nothing wrong with that, but
doesn't make music better is what I'm trying to say.
You are one of, I think maybe the last remaining champions of
that spirit from the punk era interms of bringing musicians
(06:31):
along. Who really had something to say
and championing in that? And you've been incredibly
successful at it. Too.
And I wouldn't say I'm the only person.
I think there's four people like, you know, Jeff Travis, a
Rough Trade Rep, right, right, right.
So, so Lawrence, the Domino, theWarp, there's still a lot of
people doing really good things.I definitely wouldn't want to
think that I'm the only one, buthopefully I'm one of them.
(06:53):
No, definitely. You know, you just made me think
of one of the artists on mute islie back.
They to me epitomize so much of that originality and unique way
of looking at what music is and even the way they present
themselves and so on. You know, the ironicness, the
catch, the satirical, this political undertones.
(07:16):
And I was interested to understand your love more from a
personal point of view. I mean all the things you just
said, really. I think they make people look at
themselves in a way because especially in some of their art,
are really have a lot of respectfor the for the guys in the
band. Their humor is brilliant.
I never have a better laugh thanI have when I'm with them, but.
(07:38):
They try to be controversial. Well, they are controversial.
Right. In a good way, Right?
Right. The classic one for me is they
used the John Hartfield collage of a swastika made out of axes.
OK. John Hartfield was.
Oh yeah, yeah. A socialist.
Yeah, I remember him. And a lot of people said, oh,
you must be Nazis because of that, they didn't understand.
(07:59):
It questions people's perceptions about what you are.
And obviously it's an anti Nazi symbol, clearly anti Nazi
symbol, yet people who didn't understand it thought it was a
Nazi symbol. And I think that people aren't
prepared to learn about things and they just take things at
(08:19):
first value and face value and make wrong judgements.
And I like that way of getting people to think in a certain
way. So they grew up in a communist
or socialist system, which they critiqued.
But also they, on one hand they critiqued it in a positive way
and on the other hand they critiqued it in a very negative
way, which is typical lie back. For instance, they were put in
(08:44):
jail for some of their slogans. Oh, interesting.
And then they were celebrated bythe government.
So this whole kind of controversy which changes
people's perceptions. Brilliant.
So one other band I wanted to talk about a little bit was
Depeche Mode. What was it when you saw them
that first time? The Fat Gadget concert back in
(09:05):
the early 80s. It was 1980. 1980, Great.
October 1980 I. Remember for now.
What was it that you saw in themat that moment?
Do you? Do you remember?
It's pretty. Clear.
As you rightly said, they were supporting Fat Gadget at the
Bridge House pub in East London,in Canningstown.
(09:29):
And from the first few notes, I realized that they were really
great pop songwriters. There was a very minimal set up,
like just three very basic synthesizers and one drum
machine. There was no backing tapes or
anything, right. And they made an incredible
sound, very well structured sound, Yeah.
And they were very young, 1718 years old.
(09:49):
And for me, one of the things I liked about them, one of the
things that I found interesting was they were the first
generation of young bands who had the choice of getting guitar
or a synth to roughly the same amount of money.
And they decided to go the electronic way.
(10:10):
And there was just song after song.
I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing.
Every song was great and and love great harmony, great
arrangements, fairly basic but sounds that worked.
Dave in those days he was the youngest member of the band.
He had a little. Under light to make him look
(10:31):
coffee and he stood stock still with his really as Mike said.
So different to Dave Garn today.Yeah, he was saving his energy.
They came on pretty early, so itwasn't full yet.
The audience that was there weremostly their friends.
And the other thing I noticed was and that and that it was
unusual for that time, they weren't watching the band.
(10:55):
They were just dancing as thoughthey were in a club.
And although it was mostly theirfriends, I pursued some
connection between them and their audience that is quite
unusual. And that connection with the
audience is something that's continued right till now.
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.
I know at that time there were bands like OMB and Human League
and slightly different bands like Cabaret Voltaire and
(11:17):
Throbbing Gristle. The pole movement of electronic
versus guitar based music and being the opposite to London
bands like The Clash and the Pistols was that.
Part of it. Well, no, it was more, yeah, I
loved the music, but I I felt like it was a bit revolutionary
in a way, because they were so young and they'd chosen the
electronic instruments, right? Because even though people like
The Human League and the Cavs and all the other ones you
(11:38):
mentioned, they were a little bit older, but these were proper
teenagers and they had this kindof scruffy, new romantic look
which was not very well realized.
Yeah, yeah. They were like.
Kids from battle to battle of them, you know, and I thought
they weren't trying to be cool. And the same way they saw lots
of people, like stand out balletor Duran, They're just like kids
really. Yeah.
(11:58):
Playing great music, Unpretentious.
Yeah. I I honestly couldn't believe
what I heard. And I went to see them back
backstage, if you can call it that.
Yeah. Had a little chat to them.
They would. They started to be a bit cool
there and a bit offish. What do you want then?
Who are you? They said Yeah.
But they played in the same venue the following week and I
(12:21):
went back again just to make sure I wasn't.
I wasn't kidding myself. And so in the end I just went
backstage and said I'd really love to put a single out.
And they said, all right then. Shook hands.
And that's what we did. Love that.
It was just everything, you know, the, the, the way they
were arranged, which is basically down to Vince.
And they had. The cheapest things you could
(12:42):
purchase at the time and lookingback you think that was a
limitation, but for them it was like revelation because they
could make all these huge soundsand not have to be good.
Musicians to play. They obviously were talented,
clearly, and had something absolutely.
I just couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing, really.
You know, the amazing songs, really brilliantly arranged.
(13:05):
That was even us. Yeah.
Yeah. So.
It, it seems, and this is me as an outsider, but if I think
about the bands on Mute like Throbbing Crystal and then
Depeche Mode and Yazoo and Erasure and so on, there's Cabri
Voltaire and Lie Back. There's such diversity.
I know you have a love of electronic music, but I'm
(13:26):
curious where there's championing of people who are
not quite doing it are the same as everybody else.
You. You have this love of diversity.
Growing up all my teenage. Years were in the 60s, right?
And I was very. Even then I was.
Very, very picky. I wasn't one of those people who
(13:48):
said I love all kinds of music. I said that Beatles.
Singles really good, but that one's shit, you know?
And then I went from that to slightly more psychedelic things
for a bit and then. I got bored with British music,
seemed to be going down the road.
I wasn't that keen on myself indulgent.
And then I got into the the Kraut rock, German artists, more
(14:08):
experimental music. And so that that was my musical
history, my musical education, if you like.
So all those things are part of what I like pop music to
something that's that's very different than new.
So that's that's how the roster is reflected in a way.
I don't think about it in a intellectually.
(14:30):
You obviously see somebody, hearsomebody, even your own music.
You're inspired and driven by, I'm guessing the making, because
you know, you're a producer and a DJ and a musician.
So is the making I think from mypers, from looking from the
outside, that seems to really drive you.
The process of making music right is is something that I'm
(14:54):
very interested in and I enjoy being part of in some way or
other and maybe helping other people realize their vision,
musical vision through my experience of.
The process, it sounds corny, but you're like the artist.
Artist in a way because you're not like, let's say Tony Wilson,
(15:14):
right? The real Svengali type.
He had obviously championed people who were up and coming
equal as but you're you're very much a behind the scenes less in
the public eye and perhaps. We came from a very different.
Place, but we ended up in a verydifferent.
Place as well, but at the same time I suppose his.
(15:36):
Love, my love of electronic music was mirrored in him, his
love of Manchester music. Do you know what I mean?
It was right. There was something he wanted to
grab hold of and really promote,partly because there's
north-south Divide and it doesn't want everything to be
London centric. And he was Mr. Manchester as
well. Music.
It was all about the culture of Manchester generally.
(15:58):
But and yeah, I suppose that washis passion and obviously some
really great groups that came out of that.
And he was the one who was who gave him the the platform and
that's, that's fantastic. Yeah.
But yes, he but he was very muchfront and centre and I was kind
of he was the centre forward. I was the.
(16:18):
Centre half. I love that analogy.
He was the real analogy, like the Chopper Harris or something
like that. And the other team was like the
mainstream music industry. Yeah, I guess.
Did you have a relationship? The first encounter I had was
when he was doing his show, ATV show.
He played my single. He played warm leather rap,
(16:40):
Yeah. He played warm and so I, I just
phoned him up to say thank you basically.
And then I met him. The first time I met him was
when I was doing I was playing live with Robert Rental, who's
another independent electronic artist.
We did a little. Tour three dates, I think with a
band called Pragvec who invited us on and we played at the
Russell Club, which was then called The Factory.
(17:03):
And he was there and he was veryexcited because he was showing
me the artwork for the first EP,which was with Cabaret Voltaire.
I can't remember exactly. So he was just literally
starting out at that point. Very, very shortly after I
released my single, right. And and then independent labels
started to have hits. And I think we were exchanging a
(17:26):
lot of information about what what the best way to do certain
things was. Because none of us, whether it's
Jeff Travis or Tony or my MartinMills, who's, yeah, he had more
experience in the record shop. But it was exciting because we
didn't know really know what we were doing.
And yet we were having hits, right?
And the majors didn't really like that because they felt that
having a hit was their territory.
(17:47):
You know, we were fine when we nice little independent labels,
right? And they could sign if we had
any bands who are interesting, they could sign them if they
thought it was going to be a hit.
But now we would gain the hits ourselves.
There was a whole part of the market that was closed off to
them in a way. And anyway, they were trying
different tricks with the chart rules to make it more difficult.
But we actually were more imaginative than them in the way
(18:09):
we abused the chart rules in in a way.
I see. And so over the years I've met
him a lot, loads of times. Yeah, actually, we, we we got on
very well. I have to say we got on very
well. I love the the full circle of
that. I don't know if you've ever
thought about it, but from that first single with Cabre
Voltaire, who are now with MU and with Joy Division on that
(18:30):
EP, who obviously became New Order and then amazingly are now
part of Mute Two, it's there's this, you may not see it this
way. You're continuing that legacy of
his in some ways. It's sort of an an amazing full
circle in some ways. I do feel that up to a point, I
think those artists need to be taken care of.
(18:53):
They deserve to continue. It's just really important that
those things stay in the public eye, really.
And yeah, I know what you mean. I did say when we did the New
Order signing a while ago now, afew years ago now, I just said I
really hope that Tony and Rob Gritton, who's obviously both of
them passed away by then, approved.
(19:14):
I don't know if it's true, but there was this quote I remember
from Rob Gritton where he said Tony Wilson is saying something
like, why don't we sign to London Records?
And Rob Gratton says because of the name, right?
Of course. Manchester Records.
Yeah. Anyway.
That's fair enough. I get that.
Yeah, totally. That's very real, yeah.
(19:36):
What it segues into, something Iwas interested in was, you know,
you over the years as you you'vetouched on it a little bit, was
that you've given a lot of bandsand artists the opportunity to
find an audience for themselves and help them grow.
And what I find amazing about that is that you don't always
put success first, meaning you believe you've got to get
(20:00):
something out there in order forpeople to to pay attention to
it. And I was interested, have there
been any failures? Because it seems you've had a
lot of successes are sort of a big word to use in this context.
But have there been instances where you're like, oh shit, we
should have done that? Be right back.
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(21:24):
There are different matrices forsuccess.
Obviously there's artistic creative success, there's
personal success and there's a balance between all of them.
For me, there's no point having commercial success if you're not
having creative success. It's like commercial success is
obviously really important. We're in the music business and
we have to pay for recording time, we have to pay for staff
(21:46):
and things like that. Overheads.
So yeah, there has to be a certain level, but it's always
the priority for me and my team,I suppose, because it drips down
for me without the artistic success and nothing else ever
happens for us as a label. So it's quite possible to make
an amazing record with one of our artists, but it's not
(22:10):
commercially successful. There have been a lot of things
that have not been commercially successful.
Again, it depends what you mean.What you want to say is
commercially successful. If you have an artist, I'm not
going to name any names, but sayyou have an artist who's doing
like pure Noise, OK. Commercial success would be if
we sold 1000 copies. And if you had a band who did
(22:33):
pop music and only sold 1000 copies, that would probably be a
disappointment. So it's relative.
It's relative and also relative to the costs.
If somebody who's the noise artist can do everything in his
home, in his bedroom at home or her bedroom at home, yeah, with
a low cost, then it makes sense to sell 1000 records, right?
But it doesn't make sense to sell 1000 records if you're in a
(22:54):
studio for three months that costs £1000 a day.
It's an interesting nuance because it, like you said, you
know, you're in the, you're in the business, the music
business, but your approach is very unique.
You're very much a cultivator versus an administrator.
I've always been really impressed with your approach to
marketing. And again, that's a super
(23:16):
general topic, but I think of like Moby.
I always thought Moby was a massive success, success because
people picked up on it and put it into advertising.
But I believe that was actually something that just came from
you from Mute. You were like, why isn't Moby?
Why isn't this album popular? And there's this real savviness.
(23:37):
And it just makes me think in many ways, you're an industry
Unicorn. You're somebody who is not
afraid to take risks. You your first opinion, your
first kind of analysis is correct.
Really. When Play came out, it took a
year before before people cottoned onto it.
Really. We released 4 singles before
anybody even knew about it. It was crazy.
(23:59):
We didn't think it was going to be as big as it was, but we all
thought it had real potential. But people weren't picking up on
it. Maybe it was the timing, who
knows, But by the time the fourth single came out, it was a
different story. And regarding the advertise, you
know, using music for ads, it was still a time when a lot of
musicians and labels, including us.
Were very wary about. Using our music in advertising,
(24:21):
it was the first time it was used.
The late Brian Griffin, the photographer, was a good friend
of Mute. He did the first five Depeche
Mode, but he got into making commercials.
That's right, yeah. And he was a huge music fan and
he did a car out and he wants touse another one of our artists
(24:41):
for the music, which is Panasonic, who who are very
experimental electronic thing. We were very excited about that
and used Panasonic and the agency were OK with it.
But he went to the head of the car company and he said no.
And Brian had a copy of Play in his editing suite.
So he put that on. He used Find My Baby for the ad.
(25:01):
And I think that was the first use of the, of the, of the
music. And then somehow it became the
sound of advertising. I don't know.
I don't know how that mental route works.
Music supervisors who do TV or ads, they need somebody else to
be affirmative of, of a style. So and so somebody's been brave
(25:22):
enough to do that. In this case, Brian, would you
always take one person to take that first step?
I think an as an outsider, the element of your approach to
musicians and and giving them anopportunity to record and
release, etcetera. It's very much willing to take
that at risk as it were, or to say believe in them and say this
(25:45):
is stuff people should be aware of and then people cock grab
onto it. But you know, don't get me
wrong, we've had our failures, definitely, but nothing but
never anything I've regretted doing.
But you probably don't know about the failures.
Or failures you've never heard you've never heard.
It exactly. That's why they were saying it's
(26:05):
because they didn't. So going way back now, why did
you want to start your own label?
I, I know the way MU came about to a certain extent.
It's somewhat legendary. You recorded Warm Leatherette on
a four track in your mum's house, then Fat Gadget sent you
a tape and then you went to see Fat Gadget and Depeche Mode were
(26:29):
playing and then you started Mute Records.
That's that's kind of the right or not quite right.
OK. I mean, when I put out my first
single, I had no intention of starting a record play.
I just wanted to put out singlesbecause it was the type of DIY
just after punk. And I was always into music and
I was starting to get into making electronic music in my
(26:51):
bedroom. And I thought, why not just put
something out Nobody's going to buy.
It doesn't really matter. And it actually turned out to be
in that world, that sort of alternative world, relatively
successful, which kind of confused me.
And I was starting to get demo tapes because I put my address
on the sleeve. That was nothing that I
particularly liked. And then then I met Sad Gadget
through mutual friends, really liked what he did.
(27:15):
We got on very well. And so that was the beginning of
Mute as a label when I started working with Frank.
And then there were a number of other artists before Depeche.
It was DAF, which was the first album on Mute, Decline on De
Burzen and did Robert Rental single Silicon Teams, which is
really my project. Yeah.
(27:36):
And then I met Dipesh who was supporting Fad Gadget at the
Bridge House in Camden in Northampton Town, Canning Town.
So that's just like a short version of your story, slightly
different than Auburn. So you not at that time, but a
little bit before that, you wereliving in Switzerland, right?
You were working as a DJ and then you came back to England to
(27:59):
be part of the punk scene and something you said that
interested me was that you thought that the punk music was
quite conservative, but you liked the ethos.
So what did you like about punk?There's a couple of things that
I didn't come back to the UK to be part of the scene, OK, I was
never part of any scene really at that point.
Fair enough. But the job had finished in
(28:20):
Switzerland around April and so I came back to London.
I've been reading about punk andthe kind of excitement around
it. So I was very, I'm super excited
about it and soon after I got. Back I was.
Listening to John Peel and as I turned the radio and it was in
the middle of a song and I had no idea who it was and I
(28:43):
thought, God, this sounds great.It sounds like Noi.
A. Little bit.
And then there's a place where normally there would be a solo.
OK. And there was no solo.
This is amazing. What is this?
And then it was turned out it was the Ramones.
And that was my first contact with punk rock.
And I found that really. Yeah, conventional
(29:04):
instrumentally, but very unconventional in the form and
that Ramones album. So I went straight out and
bought that album. I was in love with that record.
And then the first English British singles started coming
out. The Pistols, the Dams.
And it was exciting time, you know, I was very bored anyway,
but by that time I was very bored with most of the music
(29:26):
that was coming out of the UK and America.
And it was, it becomes so self indulgent and this was the
opposite of self indulgent in a way.
It was self indulgent but not self indulgent.
It's not self indulgent musically.
And I just became very excited by the whole scene.
And then the DIY thing really started and there was quite a
few group called the Desperate Bicycles and they did an
(29:49):
article, I think it was in the Melody Makers, how to release
your own single basically. And I thought this is pretty
exciting. But by that time punk, the music
side of it didn't really move. It went in different directions
basically either carried on as it was, which was boring, or it
carried on to Public Image Limited, which was great.
And so it was diversifying and it felt like people were really
(30:11):
open to listen to new things forthe first time forever,
basically. And I'd always been into
electronic music and it inspiredme to buy a synthesizer and tape
recorder, which I mean, it's a very important kind of moment
which didn't just affect me, butaffected a lot of other people.
(30:32):
Human League, OMD, you know, Soft Cell.
It was a moment in time which was like super imagined, super
exciting in times in terms of people's openness to music.
It was a time when synthesizers became affordable for normal
(30:53):
people. Before that they were very
expensive and so the Japanese synths were starting to come in.
Chord and Roland. Especially now they were coming
on the second hand market. So it was the beginning of post
punk electronic music. Should we say the interest in
it, the distribution method through independent distributors
like Rough Trade? And you didn't have to go to
recording studio to make it. And so all that happened in a
(31:16):
short space of time. So all those people, including
me, were doing things in in. I mean, I didn't know anybody at
that time. I didn't know Cabaret Voltaire
or Robin Bristol's Human Being. I didn't know them.
I didn't know that I was just doing off my own back.
But everybody was doing a similar thing and all inspired
by similar musicians, especiallyGerman musicians like Cannes and
craft work and and inspired by that and then through the filter
(31:40):
of punk. Hi there.
Sorry for the interruption, but if you're enjoying the show,
please leave a review or a comment for the latest news and
updates. Make sure to also follow us on
Instagram at destroyed Punk podcast.
Thank you. And now back to the show.
So coming out of that, and I'm going to jump forward a little
(32:02):
bit from there, which is what isit about techno that you love?
Because I know you still DJ occasionally.
Yeah, occasionally. OK, What is it about techno that
you love? Is that a true statement?
I love it because first of all, most importantly, it's got to
work on the dance floor. Because if not, then it doesn't
(32:23):
really work at all, right? And so within those parameters,
within that parameter, to make something that's original
electronic music is quite hard. So a lot of techno, which isn't
very good in every genre, but the really good one is where
people have used the limitation of techno or the strictures of
techno and used that in a very creative way with electronic
(32:46):
music. So, you know, basically you only
ever have two or three things going at once, maybe four or
five maximum going at once sonically, and you have to make
them all work together. And a lot of techno producers
who are also into experimental music, so they're using the
techno format to experiment withelectronic music, which I think
(33:08):
is really interesting. I actually don't really like the
term electronic experimental music, but that's another that's
another question. One of the most experimental
bands of the 70s was ABBA. Interesting.
OK, the trouble with the term experimental music now means
unlistenable pretty much. But it's not about the output,
it's about the input, the experimental input.
(33:30):
And ABBA used a lot of very interesting techniques in the
early 70s, recording techniques to to, to achieve their sound,
like using different speeds of tape and backwards and all sorts
of really interesting things. And they're all experimental in
the sense that they were experiments.
The definition of an experiment is either it either fails or
(33:51):
succeeds. If somebody said to me about
Sunroof the band project out with Gareth and I said
experimental music, they would immediately think, oh, it's not
very. Listenable.
And it may not be very listenable, but that's not
because it's experimental. It's because it's because of the
input that we put into it, not the output that comes out.
That's all. It's just one of those words.
Let's say lazy words. Sure.
Yeah, I love that. It makes a lot of sense and I
(34:12):
think it it gets more to how music is made versus the labels
and genres that things get thrown into.
Sometimes when I'm researching about a band or whatever, it's
sometimes they get categorized in so many different categories.
I'm like which category actuallyare they?
And then it's so it comes almostnonsensical to a certain extent.
(34:35):
Yeah. I mean, there's the subgenre of
the subgenre, right? I don't know is God knows how
many, so I have no idea how to me, I know exactly what I mean
by techno. I can't put into words, but I I
know when I hear something to methat's techno and to me that's
not techno. I know I know that pretty
immediately. You know I.
Don't know if you've ever thought about this, but where do
(34:55):
you see the birth of techno coming from?
Is it through bands like CAN andCraft Work, John Cage, Cabaret
Voltaire, OMD, all of the above?Or I don't know if it's
something you've ever thought. About there's definitely techno
artists or producers who weren'twho are fans of that music.
I think there's there's a bit ofa lineage before there was
(35:17):
techno. This is like going back a miss
of time. There was EBM electronic body
music. People like nights are AB DAF
Front 242 a lot of a lot of things like that.
There's there's quite a few interesting documentaries about
techno. There's like the Frankfurt
School who said they invented techno.
(35:39):
Obviously Berlin Post Wall techno.
I just I you know, I think it's really hard to say.
I think you could in a way go back to I feel.
Love. Yes.
Like Donald Summer? Sure.
Yeah. Giulio Morodo.
People like DAF Knights Red, whoused sequence dance music and
Front 242 and it's really, it's a very hard, it's hard to put
(36:02):
your finger on it. Who was the first techno artist?
It's a lot of different. Versions.
It was less about who was the first, it was more, and I think
he answered the question as probably a combination of
things. There's so many different
influences, you know, coming together.
House music probably came just abit before techno, right?
And again, it was the availability of the tools to
(36:24):
make it that was the key thing. These people were not making
records in big studios with veryexpensive equipment.
They were either making them at home or in very cheap studio
spaces. That's a good question to which
I don't really have an answer, No.
That's fine. You touched on Sunroof, which is
a project you're doing right now.
You just had an album out for Sunroof.
It's the fourth in a series. Third, third album is just about
(36:47):
to come out. Yeah.
One of the things I love about doing this podcast is that it
has taken me down many new avenues of music and discovering
sunroof. It was revelationary.
It's beautiful music. And something that occurred to
me though, was, you know, you'veworked with Gareth Jones for a
(37:09):
long time. It must be hard to be objective
about your own music. You don't think about it when
we're making. It.
Right. And I worked with Gareth since
the early 80s. We worked on three Depeche
records together as producers. He's produced many Mute artists
after that, and he still is, actually just produced the last
Jan Tearson record. We're very guided by practical
(37:34):
issues, right? Time being the main one.
We're both busy people doing ourday jobs, so there's very little
time we can actually get together.
Right and. When we do, we just patch
modules and start playing really, and then if we hear that
something's good, we press record for 5 minutes and then
(37:55):
carry on. And we use the sort of a
technique which I learned from photography because I'm a keen
amateur photographer as well. St.
Photographer. Not very good but I'm keen.
Interesting. A lot of St. photographers and
maybe other kinds of photographers as well, they
don't look at their pictures forthree months until after they've
been taken. Because when you're taking a
photograph or you're in the studio or whatever you're doing,
(38:18):
there's a specific set of circumstances or feelings that
relate to what you do. So you might have a headache
that day if you're in the studioor you felt great that day.
And then if you try and judge the music, you're always using
those those feelings and that's not very good if you really want
to judge it. So we didn't listen to the music
for months afterwards, and then we did.
(38:38):
And we were all both very surprised by a number of things.
One was how good some of it was,how bad some of it was.
But interestingly, I think that we couldn't remember doing it
and we couldn't remember who didwhich sound.
It became. It became really, it became
really like an audience rather than a producer and I, and that
(39:01):
was, I mean, I think that's a really good way of doing things.
It's not always practical in themusic business because you want
to get the album out, but for usthere was no real pressure for
that. You just get to hear it
objectively. It's fun and depressing at
times. It's also fun.
So you still DJA little bit and you're producing and making
music and so on and so forth andrunning a company.
(39:23):
And we play live sometimes as well.
I did see that. Which we enjoy very much.
What motivates you? What?
What drives you? Well, in in general, you mean?
Yeah, I'm lucky that I can do those different things.
First of all, if I was just running the label, if I was just
a musician or just whatever, DJIthink my interest would weigh in
(39:45):
quite quickly. But because I can pick and
choose a little bit what I do, obviously with the label, I have
a lot of responsibilities which I take seriously, and that's
always the kind of priority, right?
But what motivates me? I don't know.
I like music. I think I love music.
But there's very little music that I love.
Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%.
(40:05):
I don't love. There's a lot of music that I
don't love and that's always been the case.
Even when I was just like a teenager, I had a very small
record collection and I still haven't people go where's your
record collection? So I don't really have a big
record collection at all becauseI don't really want, not that
interested in music that I don'tlove.
From a sunroof point of view. Having an performing something
live in front of an audience, it's exciting.
(40:26):
Especially the kind of thing we're doing which is very
improvised so you're never quitesure how it's going to work out.
It's just exciting. Same with DJ and different, very
different, but trying to see howyou're relating to an audience
musically, I think is really exciting.
So in terms of a label, right, trying to find something that's
new. Or or or.
Very original or very special and and working with the artist
(40:49):
that makes that kind of music isreally exciting.
And watching that develop artistdevelopment for me is really
exciting. And that's we're not the kind of
label that does a one off singleto see how it goes.
We commit. We really commit to a long term
relationship, so that's exciting.
That's really exciting. I read that you had a dislike
for a Brit pop and I wonder whatyou thought about the Oasis
(41:11):
reunion. Be right back.
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Brit pop. It's not that I disliked it, I
didn't like it, but it became ubiquitous at a certain point
(42:37):
and I think Oasis is really goodas a band, really good songs,
but there's so many so-called Brit pop bands and you couldn't
get on the radio, you couldn't get on the into the press.
It was all about Brit pop. Blur, a really great band, but
there was so much rubbish that kind of polluted in my opinion,
the media. It was a difficult time for us
(42:58):
and I don't really hate it, it'sjust that I hate the way that
people excluded, pretty much excluded all other kinds of
music at that point. I knew Noel Gallagher very well
before Oasis because he was a roadie for spiral carpets and I
did not know that. And we always go on very well.
And if I ever bumped into him wherever it was hardly ever.
(43:20):
We always have a good chat. So I was very happy for him
because he's very, he was very talented even as AI don't know
he was a talented roadie, but hehe played guitar and stuff, so
that was good. Yeah.
And the reunion is what I don't like the way they did the ticket
pricing. Yeah, you know, the reunions,
you know, if people want to go and watch it, great.
(43:42):
People enjoy it, great. I don't have a problem with.
It's like the stones throwing stones.
Carry on. I personally, I have seen the
stones live, but that was a verylong time ago.
I'm personally not that interested in seeing them
anymore. I was a big fan of back end when
I was a teenager. But if they want to do it and
people want to see it, fantastic.
It actually gets into something that I I was interested to know
(44:04):
what you thought that these daysplatforms like Spotify and Apple
Music are driving much of the music industry and that I read a
lot about how musicians struggleto make a name for themselves.
Do you think that's true, or is it the same as it ever was,
meaning it's always been hard for bands to make a name for
(44:27):
themselves, to breakthrough and so on?
It's always been hard. It's very different the way
people listen to music now. It's completely different to how
they listen to music when I was growing up or even 10 years.
Ago and that's. That can be quite difficult for
an artist who makes a great album, but people are into one
track and they're not really interested in the album.
(44:47):
But in a sense that used to be like that.
He might have one hit of an album, the one single that was
on the album, and nobody would buy the album.
They're always gay. Cheapest.
There are a lot more ways of getting your music out there
these days, incomparable to whenI started.
But there's also ton more music,so it's equal evens itself out.
(45:08):
I think a lot of the music is OK.
Maybe 5050% is just not very good or it doesn't interest me,
right? 40% is OK but not exceptional.
And there's like tiny percentageat the top, which is
exceptional. And that's always been the case.
People can get all sentimental about the charts of the 60s and
70s. But if you look, there's tons of
(45:29):
crap, frankly, in the charts in those days.
I think that there's good positive things about Spotify
and Apple Music. I think the fact that your music
will be up there, not forever, there's no forever, but long
after it would be available in aconventional record shop, right?
And I think that's great. And for some people, over time
you can make some money as an artist like that.
(45:50):
You might not have a huge record, but over time that
builds up to five years, for instance, it starts to build up
possibly. So I think that's the positive
thing. Your music as a musician is out
there for many years to come. You get paid very little play,
right? But sometimes people, if they
like the record, like the song record, if they like the song
(46:12):
and they play a lot, then you might get a bit of money.
And if you're like Edge Sheeran or something like that, you make
a fortune, right? More than you would ever have
made by selling records. There are a lot of nuances in
that. It's that very misunderstood
English expression. Swings and roundabouts.
Swings and roundabouts. It's comparing apples with
(46:34):
oranges. You've been developing a limited
edition, build it yourself Mute Synth, which seems really
exciting. You seem excited about that from
what I've read and I'm curious, do you see that as blossom into
something where Mute Records is making synthesizers?
(46:58):
That's a. No, not really.
We made three of the Mute synths.
I think it was 3 a few, quite a few years ago now, but they were
stand alone machines really. But then I'm very into modular
since I started to get to know some of the manufacturers and
there's a great kind of company called Future Sound Systems
based in Bristol. And we did a couple of modules
(47:20):
together. We never built anything
ourselves, but they were kind ofthose modules basically what I
thought would be useful. I'd like to do more of that
actually, but it's time and, andthere are so many great modules
out there. There's thousands of really good
modules. I don't know what I could come
up with that would really be an improvement on something that's
already there with so many greatmodules out there at the moment.
(47:43):
It's so tangential to the music industry, but at the same time
it's so integral, but it's so it's it's a little bit and this
is a strange analogy maybe, but Apple making a car is oh, wow,
what would that must that would be really cool kind of thing
because they have so much experience in terms of making
amazing things. And so with mute records, you
mute making synth is, oh, that would be an amazing synth.
(48:06):
That's super kind of pedestrian that you want to look at it.
But it makes me think about AI and I don't know if you how that
is impacting how how you feel that's impacting music in a good
or bad way. If you if it's something you
even think about. I do think about it a bit.
I think it swings and roundabouts.
(48:28):
AI in terms of say, music software is fantastic what AI
can do. It really takes it to another
level. But I heard a track, it was
something that was like a demonstration rather than a
commercial project using an AI version of Dave Garns voice.
(48:49):
How interesting on a track that was designed to sound like
Depeche Mode. Interesting the track, the voice
was pretty sadly pretty close not you could tell the
difference, but it was close thetrack wasn't nowhere near as
good as the depression track Nowthat's something obviously
that's really on everybody's radar.
(49:09):
Of course, voice over actor or whatever broadcaster, musician
say OK, I want a track that sounds like The Beatles and then
you get something that sounds like The Beatles, right it's not
The Beatles. So there's all those kind of
things about copyright and who owns, do you own your own voice?
And it's very, it's complicated and I don't really want to get
(49:31):
into the weeds of that because that's right.
I just want to respond to it. Really.
There's not much I can do about it.
Yeah, of course. Yes, there's, but there's
definitely positives about AI inthe production of music rather
than the composing of music and maybe in the composer music for
certain kinds of things. I have no idea.
Going back to punk, in your opinion, do you feel that punk
(49:53):
was the last cultural revolution?
I don't think punk was the last.I think dance music has been,
it's huge. And that really came after punk
late 80s. Now it's huge, which I think is
incredible. Of course, now the the, the
diversification of music throughthrough streaming, it makes it
less easy for one particular genre to to be predominant.
(50:20):
OK, so the answer to your question is I have no idea
because I people ask me questions like what do you think
the future of music is? And I I really don't know.
Yeah, I think it's, no, it's a really fairpoint and it's not a
wrong answer. It's a wrong answer.
It's a really fairpoint. It's just something that
(50:41):
fascinates me and it's less about the music because I don't
see, I don't see a correlation necessarily between punk music
and the music of today is more what you said early on about the
ethos and how you know to do it yourself and how it enabled
yourself and others to get into what you love to do and so on
(51:04):
and so forth. So I think you can try.
You can trace things like techno, I think for instance,
you can trace back to punk in a way, but a lot of the people who
are making techno wouldn't have any clue about that.
But you can. And you can trace it back to
craft work and you can trace it back to and you can trace punk
to. A lot of punk musicians were
(51:26):
into bands like Cannes and John Lydon famously applied for the
job as lead singer of Cannes at one point.
And the people like Hawkwind, who I loved as well, not a
typical British band at the time, and Noy and a lot of punk
musicians before punk was punk into that kind of music.
It all, it all feeds into each other, even if people aren't
(51:47):
conscious of it. There are a lot of people who
are one person, labels right now, for instance, putting out a
couple of singles. And that's very much part of the
punk ethos musically. Yeah, I guess so.
The bands who sound like they could have been punk bands.
Maybe because it's about energy as much as the actual musical
content. It's about the energy of punk at
(52:09):
a point where music was very stayed and very boring and self
indulgent and punk came like a massive shot in the arm.
And will there be a type of music?
That comes along. That has the same effect that
punk had, or that psychedelia had or the 60s pop thing had.
(52:30):
Very hard to say, very difficultI think.
But that doesn't mean it can't happen.
One last question before you have to jump.
Something I was curious to talk about was the Miller Zuma
Foundation. There's some really amazing
things happening. It would be good to hear a bit
more about that because I thought it was a really
interesting thing you are doing today.
(52:52):
Yeah, it's it's. Me and my wife Deanne, she's a.
Visual artist, photographer, video artist, painter.
And I think at some point we just felt we've got between US
and the people we know. There's quite a lot of talents
there. And how do we put those to use
(53:12):
in a way that's not just about us, us creating, but but somehow
use that to to bring people together in a different way.
So you know. We we started.
Out with a couple of projects. There was one of which was a
modular synthesizer ensemble. Yeah, who existed before us.
We didn't create that. But that existed before.
(53:35):
And I'd seen them, it's run by an Austrian guy called Gammon.
And I'd seen that and it was like, I always found it
incredibly moving to see it's basically young teenagers from
10 to maybe 15 or something likethat.
And. He gets he, he.
Contacts schools or different youth organizations looking for
(53:59):
volunteers who want to be part of this ensemble.
And he'll meet them in the morning and they have no musical
experience. Normally they don't play any
other instrument. And he has like, I think it's 12
or 14 little modular setups, right?
And he'll teach them how to use those and then they'll make a
(54:22):
piece, compose a piece together,and then in the afternoon
they'll perform it live. So it's remarkable.
It's really very moving. I remember the first time I saw
it was with a couple of like hard bitten modular synthesis
and we were all really in tears.It was.
Just incredible. So when we decided to.
(54:44):
Start the foundation. That was one of the projects I
wanted to support and we still do.
And they, and that's a really wonderful experience for, for
people, yeah. And then we did these online.
Artist residences where we, we put out a call saying, hey, if
you want to participate in this workshop, like a residency right
(55:05):
online, you know, write to us and, and we got a lot of
applications as we picked 4 artists from different
disciplines. We 4 artists who we thought
would work. Together.
Well, we interviewed them online.
And then we put them in a space,not a digital space.
We gave them the stipend for three months and in that period
to produce something as a group and, and it was incredible.
(55:29):
It was a social experiment as much as an artistic experiment.
Watching these people from different countries with
different disciplines we've never met coming together to
work on a play. It was really satisfying.
It's a bit like putting a band together, basically said OK,
make an album in three months. And then there's a number of
other projects that we're supporting as well, and there's
(55:49):
some very long term projects. We've worked with an
organization called East, but what they've done in the past is
they've rented a train in East Africa and put artists in there
from different, similar, very similar kind of concepts to our
residencies, but it's all done in a train.
Right, OK. And the.
Train goes through Africa and they pick people up on the.
(56:10):
Way. Artists and they work together
on the train and then in the endthey have an exhibition.
I think it's a brilliant projectagain.
It's not our. It's not the project that we
invented, but it's one we're supporting.
Yeah, so. And we're working with a gallery
space in Berlin called CLV and we're putting on an exhibition
from one of our artists. And then in the spring it's,
(56:31):
it's moving along. It's not a, it's not a very,
it's not a good. Time for things like this and
financially but. We have some really generous
donors. Who helped keep it going?
Yeah. And support a lot of really good
supporters. And it's it's something that we
find very enjoyable, worthwhile,satisfying, all those things.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
(56:52):
I'm going to let you go and say thank you.
We've been wonderful to chat with you.
Thank you. Yeah.
Lovely. I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed talking about myself.
As we all do. All right.
Thanks. The best.
Yeah, you too. Thank you very much.
Bye, bye, bye. My name is Richard Smith and I'm
(57:14):
your host. I'm a filmmaker and art director
and Once Upon a time I was part of the big 80s.
I designed record covers for Depeche Mode.
I danced with Bono, discussed art with Mick Jagger and drank
tea with Suzie Sue. I also grew up during those
turbulent times in England in the late 70s and was driven by
the Do it Yourself ethos with punk.
I obsessed over bands like Joy Division and New Order and went
(57:34):
on to work for the album cover designer Peter Savile.
I believe that year, that momentin 1976 when a bunch of foul
mouthed yobs cursed and swore onnational television, changed the
future of culture forever and iswhat brought us to where we are
today. So where do we go from here?
Will emerging new technologies be the catalyst that tears down
the walls of mediocrity, throwing culture and society
(57:57):
into chaos and revolution again?We'll have to wait and see.
This has been another episode ofDestroy.
Thank you for listening destroyisaberightbackstudiosproductionlearnmore@berightbackstudios.com
and please tune in again for another episode of Destroy the
Influence of Punk podcast wherever you listen or download
(58:17):
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Right back. I think the limitation is always
(00:21):
your creativity, the level of your ideas.
If you've got a great idea, A4 track or a laptop or a phone is
a great way of doing it but doesn't make music better unless
you were. There, it's almost impossible to
comprehend how the punk movementof 76 and 77 swallowed the
country whole. The wildfire ignited by London
(00:42):
bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Generation X and Suiting
the Banshees reached far beyond the capital in cities up and
down the country. The Flame The revolution was
swept forward by a new wave of post punk excitement that would
revolutionize the next wave of sound.
Inspired by the experimental pulse of bands like Craftwork,
(01:03):
Can Noi and Tangerine Dream. Fueled by a rejection of prog
rocks indulgent excess, a new generation of artists that
merged who embraced a more futuristic agenda.
The punk ethos of Do It Yourselfwasn't just about 3 chords and a
sneer, it was about changing theworld.
Capitalizing on the rise of cheap technology, this inspired
(01:25):
group of Mavericks from Fat Gadget Throbbing Gristle used
makeshift instrumentation and living room recording studios to
make music even more urgent and real.
In episode 8, we meet someone who rode this spiraling energy
and channelled it into a lifelong passion to help artists
and musicians of every inclination survive, prosper,
(01:47):
and thrive. I'm Richard Smith, I'm an art
director, a filmmaker, and I'm your host.
Welcome to Destroy England 1976.They are broke rockers.
Disillusioned youth. Raw.
Outrageous and crude. Anarchy.
Striking miners. The new praise they tell.
(02:09):
Me mountains of rubbish, the winter of discontent.
Worthless. Nasty.
Societal decline, no future chaos?
There, I hear her. Welcome to Destroy, a podcast
about how the punk movement of 1976 or the Cultural Revolution
still being felt today. You.
(02:30):
Have to destroy in order to create.
Destroy is produced by B Right Back Studios, a full service
video and podcast production company that specializes in
making music videos for up and coming bands and musicians.
Visit brightbackstudios.com/destroy to
learn more. If you're enjoying the show,
visit our website destroypunkpodcast.com to learn
(02:52):
more about every episode, including interview transcripts,
show notes, music videos, curated playlists and more.
Thank you for listening. My guest today has been in love
with electronic music for over 50 years.
He's a producer, ADJ and a musician.
He's also the owner of one of the most successful Independent
(03:13):
Record labels, which he started in 1978.
He's also been responsible for cultivating the careers of so
many notable bands and musicians, including Depeche
Mode, Moby, Yazoo, Lie Back, FatGadget, The Liars, and even his
own as The Normal Silicon Teens and Sunroof.
Please welcome to the show Mute Records founder Daniel Miller.
(03:35):
Daniel, amazing to chat with youtoday.
Thank you for being on the show.My pleasure, Richard, Thank you
for inviting me. You're welcome.
So it's been a long time since we spoken, and something I was
really struck by recently was inthe book you published the The
Visual History of Mute. Your quote, Electronic music was
(03:57):
like punk. I kind of wanted to allow start
there and understand that. I suppose my thing was the big.
Saying at the time, I think it was Mark Perry who quoted it was
all you need to do is get a guitar and learn 3 chords.
My thing was three chords of fartoo many and you can just have
one. You're going to have one finger
on a keyboard to make an interesting sound, which I
(04:19):
thought was more punk than beingin a traditional rock band.
I saw someone say something recently about the state of
music today, something along thelines of you can record an album
or whatever on a phone, you can just record it in your living
room, in your bedroom. And they presented that as
something new. But then I thought to myself, it
(04:41):
always has been that accessible.Well, it hasn't always been that
accessible, but at the time I was starting out it became much
more accessible. There were less expensive 4
track machines available. Yeah.
I mean, my first record was recorded in the bedroom.
But then I know other people like Robert Rental who I were
with later. His was done in his maybe his
(05:03):
bedroom, possibly his living room, but definitely at home,
same as Thomas Lear. All people were, even if it
wasn't literally at home, it wasin improvised studios.
They weren't in conventional recording studios.
They might have been in a a roomin a warehouse somewhere from
Mcgristle, Cabaret, Voltaire. Those people, none of them
worked in conventional recordingstudios, so they're all done in
(05:25):
a very DIY way. So yeah, that's what makes me
smile really. When, when people say, of
course, now it's even easier. But I think looking back to
those days, if you look from today backwards, yeah, to those
days, you think, you know, it was a limitation that really
made the music, right. But actually having a four track
machine where I could overdub was definitely not a limitation.
(05:47):
It was a revelation. And looking back now that you
obviously, you know, when you'reusing a laptop or a phone that
you've got endless number of tracks.
And so I think the limitation isalways your creativity, really
the level, the level of your ideas.
Your originality. Originality.
If you've got a great idea, 4 track or a laptop or a phone is
(06:08):
a great way of doing it. If you just enjoy making music
for the sake of it that's not particularly original, then it's
the same thing. Nothing wrong with that, but
doesn't make music better is what I'm trying to say.
You are one of, I think maybe the last remaining champions of
that spirit from the punk era interms of bringing musicians
(06:31):
along. Who really had something to say
and championing in that? And you've been incredibly
successful at it. Too.
And I wouldn't say I'm the only person.
I think there's four people like, you know, Jeff Travis, a
Rough Trade Rep, right, right, right.
So, so Lawrence, the Domino, theWarp, there's still a lot of
people doing really good things.I definitely wouldn't want to
think that I'm the only one, buthopefully I'm one of them.
(06:53):
No, definitely. You know, you just made me think
of one of the artists on mute islie back.
They to me epitomize so much of that originality and unique way
of looking at what music is and even the way they present
themselves and so on. You know, the ironicness, the
catch, the satirical, this political undertones.
(07:16):
And I was interested to understand your love more from a
personal point of view. I mean all the things you just
said, really. I think they make people look at
themselves in a way because especially in some of their art,
are really have a lot of respectfor the for the guys in the
band. Their humor is brilliant.
I never have a better laugh thanI have when I'm with them, but.
(07:38):
They try to be controversial. Well, they are controversial.
Right. In a good way, Right?
Right. The classic one for me is they
used the John Hartfield collage of a swastika made out of axes.
OK. John Hartfield was.
Oh yeah, yeah. A socialist.
Yeah, I remember him. And a lot of people said, oh,
you must be Nazis because of that, they didn't understand.
(07:59):
It questions people's perceptions about what you are.
And obviously it's an anti Nazi symbol, clearly anti Nazi
symbol, yet people who didn't understand it thought it was a
Nazi symbol. And I think that people aren't
prepared to learn about things and they just take things at
(08:19):
first value and face value and make wrong judgements.
And I like that way of getting people to think in a certain
way. So they grew up in a communist
or socialist system, which they critiqued.
But also they, on one hand they critiqued it in a positive way
and on the other hand they critiqued it in a very negative
way, which is typical lie back. For instance, they were put in
(08:44):
jail for some of their slogans. Oh, interesting.
And then they were celebrated bythe government.
So this whole kind of controversy which changes
people's perceptions. Brilliant.
So one other band I wanted to talk about a little bit was
Depeche Mode. What was it when you saw them
that first time? The Fat Gadget concert back in
(09:05):
the early 80s. It was 1980. 1980, Great.
October 1980 I. Remember for now.
What was it that you saw in themat that moment?
Do you? Do you remember?
It's pretty. Clear.
As you rightly said, they were supporting Fat Gadget at the
Bridge House pub in East London,in Canningstown.
(09:29):
And from the first few notes, I realized that they were really
great pop songwriters. There was a very minimal set up,
like just three very basic synthesizers and one drum
machine. There was no backing tapes or
anything, right. And they made an incredible
sound, very well structured sound, Yeah.
And they were very young, 1718 years old.
(09:49):
And for me, one of the things I liked about them, one of the
things that I found interesting was they were the first
generation of young bands who had the choice of getting guitar
or a synth to roughly the same amount of money.
And they decided to go the electronic way.
(10:10):
And there was just song after song.
I couldn't quite believe what I was hearing.
Every song was great and and love great harmony, great
arrangements, fairly basic but sounds that worked.
Dave in those days he was the youngest member of the band.
He had a little. Under light to make him look
(10:31):
coffee and he stood stock still with his really as Mike said.
So different to Dave Garn today.Yeah, he was saving his energy.
They came on pretty early, so itwasn't full yet.
The audience that was there weremostly their friends.
And the other thing I noticed was and that and that it was
unusual for that time, they weren't watching the band.
(10:55):
They were just dancing as thoughthey were in a club.
And although it was mostly theirfriends, I pursued some
connection between them and their audience that is quite
unusual. And that connection with the
audience is something that's continued right till now.
Absolutely, yeah. Yeah.
I know at that time there were bands like OMB and Human League
and slightly different bands like Cabaret Voltaire and
(11:17):
Throbbing Gristle. The pole movement of electronic
versus guitar based music and being the opposite to London
bands like The Clash and the Pistols was that.
Part of it. Well, no, it was more, yeah, I
loved the music, but I I felt like it was a bit revolutionary
in a way, because they were so young and they'd chosen the
electronic instruments, right? Because even though people like
The Human League and the Cavs and all the other ones you
(11:38):
mentioned, they were a little bit older, but these were proper
teenagers and they had this kindof scruffy, new romantic look
which was not very well realized.
Yeah, yeah. They were like.
Kids from battle to battle of them, you know, and I thought
they weren't trying to be cool. And the same way they saw lots
of people, like stand out balletor Duran, They're just like kids
really. Yeah.
(11:58):
Playing great music, Unpretentious.
Yeah. I I honestly couldn't believe
what I heard. And I went to see them back
backstage, if you can call it that.
Yeah. Had a little chat to them.
They would. They started to be a bit cool
there and a bit offish. What do you want then?
Who are you? They said Yeah.
But they played in the same venue the following week and I
(12:21):
went back again just to make sure I wasn't.
I wasn't kidding myself. And so in the end I just went
backstage and said I'd really love to put a single out.
And they said, all right then. Shook hands.
And that's what we did. Love that.
It was just everything, you know, the, the, the way they
were arranged, which is basically down to Vince.
And they had. The cheapest things you could
(12:42):
purchase at the time and lookingback you think that was a
limitation, but for them it was like revelation because they
could make all these huge soundsand not have to be good.
Musicians to play. They obviously were talented,
clearly, and had something absolutely.
I just couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing, really.
You know, the amazing songs, really brilliantly arranged.
(13:05):
That was even us. Yeah.
Yeah. So.
It, it seems, and this is me as an outsider, but if I think
about the bands on Mute like Throbbing Crystal and then
Depeche Mode and Yazoo and Erasure and so on, there's Cabri
Voltaire and Lie Back. There's such diversity.
I know you have a love of electronic music, but I'm
(13:26):
curious where there's championing of people who are
not quite doing it are the same as everybody else.
You. You have this love of diversity.
Growing up all my teenage. Years were in the 60s, right?
And I was very. Even then I was.
Very, very picky. I wasn't one of those people who
(13:48):
said I love all kinds of music. I said that Beatles.
Singles really good, but that one's shit, you know?
And then I went from that to slightly more psychedelic things
for a bit and then. I got bored with British music,
seemed to be going down the road.
I wasn't that keen on myself indulgent.
And then I got into the the Kraut rock, German artists, more
(14:08):
experimental music. And so that that was my musical
history, my musical education, if you like.
So all those things are part of what I like pop music to
something that's that's very different than new.
So that's that's how the roster is reflected in a way.
I don't think about it in a intellectually.
(14:30):
You obviously see somebody, hearsomebody, even your own music.
You're inspired and driven by, I'm guessing the making, because
you know, you're a producer and a DJ and a musician.
So is the making I think from mypers, from looking from the
outside, that seems to really drive you.
The process of making music right is is something that I'm
(14:54):
very interested in and I enjoy being part of in some way or
other and maybe helping other people realize their vision,
musical vision through my experience of.
The process, it sounds corny, but you're like the artist.
Artist in a way because you're not like, let's say Tony Wilson,
(15:14):
right? The real Svengali type.
He had obviously championed people who were up and coming
equal as but you're you're very much a behind the scenes less in
the public eye and perhaps. We came from a very different.
Place, but we ended up in a verydifferent.
Place as well, but at the same time I suppose his.
(15:36):
Love, my love of electronic music was mirrored in him, his
love of Manchester music. Do you know what I mean?
It was right. There was something he wanted to
grab hold of and really promote,partly because there's
north-south Divide and it doesn't want everything to be
London centric. And he was Mr. Manchester as
well. Music.
It was all about the culture of Manchester generally.
(15:58):
But and yeah, I suppose that washis passion and obviously some
really great groups that came out of that.
And he was the one who was who gave him the the platform and
that's, that's fantastic. Yeah.
But yes, he but he was very muchfront and centre and I was kind
of he was the centre forward. I was the.
(16:18):
Centre half. I love that analogy.
He was the real analogy, like the Chopper Harris or something
like that. And the other team was like the
mainstream music industry. Yeah, I guess.
Did you have a relationship? The first encounter I had was
when he was doing his show, ATV show.
He played my single. He played warm leather rap,
(16:40):
Yeah. He played warm and so I, I just
phoned him up to say thank you basically.
And then I met him. The first time I met him was
when I was doing I was playing live with Robert Rental, who's
another independent electronic artist.
We did a little. Tour three dates, I think with a
band called Pragvec who invited us on and we played at the
Russell Club, which was then called The Factory.
(17:03):
And he was there and he was veryexcited because he was showing
me the artwork for the first EP,which was with Cabaret Voltaire.
I can't remember exactly. So he was just literally
starting out at that point. Very, very shortly after I
released my single, right. And and then independent labels
started to have hits. And I think we were exchanging a
(17:26):
lot of information about what what the best way to do certain
things was. Because none of us, whether it's
Jeff Travis or Tony or my MartinMills, who's, yeah, he had more
experience in the record shop. But it was exciting because we
didn't know really know what we were doing.
And yet we were having hits, right?
And the majors didn't really like that because they felt that
having a hit was their territory.
(17:47):
You know, we were fine when we nice little independent labels,
right? And they could sign if we had
any bands who are interesting, they could sign them if they
thought it was going to be a hit.
But now we would gain the hits ourselves.
There was a whole part of the market that was closed off to
them in a way. And anyway, they were trying
different tricks with the chart rules to make it more difficult.
But we actually were more imaginative than them in the way
(18:09):
we abused the chart rules in in a way.
I see. And so over the years I've met
him a lot, loads of times. Yeah, actually, we, we we got on
very well. I have to say we got on very
well. I love the the full circle of
that. I don't know if you've ever
thought about it, but from that first single with Cabre
Voltaire, who are now with MU and with Joy Division on that
(18:30):
EP, who obviously became New Order and then amazingly are now
part of Mute Two, it's there's this, you may not see it this
way. You're continuing that legacy of
his in some ways. It's sort of an an amazing full
circle in some ways. I do feel that up to a point, I
think those artists need to be taken care of.
(18:53):
They deserve to continue. It's just really important that
those things stay in the public eye, really.
And yeah, I know what you mean. I did say when we did the New
Order signing a while ago now, afew years ago now, I just said I
really hope that Tony and Rob Gritton, who's obviously both of
them passed away by then, approved.
(19:14):
I don't know if it's true, but there was this quote I remember
from Rob Gritton where he said Tony Wilson is saying something
like, why don't we sign to London Records?
And Rob Gratton says because of the name, right?
Of course. Manchester Records.
Yeah. Anyway.
That's fair enough. I get that.
Yeah, totally. That's very real, yeah.
(19:36):
What it segues into, something Iwas interested in was, you know,
you over the years as you you'vetouched on it a little bit, was
that you've given a lot of bandsand artists the opportunity to
find an audience for themselves and help them grow.
And what I find amazing about that is that you don't always
put success first, meaning you believe you've got to get
(20:00):
something out there in order forpeople to to pay attention to
it. And I was interested, have there
been any failures? Because it seems you've had a
lot of successes are sort of a big word to use in this context.
But have there been instances where you're like, oh shit, we
should have done that? Be right back.
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There are different matrices forsuccess.
Obviously there's artistic creative success, there's
personal success and there's a balance between all of them.
For me, there's no point having commercial success if you're not
having creative success. It's like commercial success is
obviously really important. We're in the music business and
we have to pay for recording time, we have to pay for staff
(21:46):
and things like that. Overheads.
So yeah, there has to be a certain level, but it's always
the priority for me and my team,I suppose, because it drips down
for me without the artistic success and nothing else ever
happens for us as a label. So it's quite possible to make
an amazing record with one of our artists, but it's not
(22:10):
commercially successful. There have been a lot of things
that have not been commercially successful.
Again, it depends what you mean.What you want to say is
commercially successful. If you have an artist, I'm not
going to name any names, but sayyou have an artist who's doing
like pure Noise, OK. Commercial success would be if
we sold 1000 copies. And if you had a band who did
(22:33):
pop music and only sold 1000 copies, that would probably be a
disappointment. So it's relative.
It's relative and also relative to the costs.
If somebody who's the noise artist can do everything in his
home, in his bedroom at home or her bedroom at home, yeah, with
a low cost, then it makes sense to sell 1000 records, right?
But it doesn't make sense to sell 1000 records if you're in a
(22:54):
studio for three months that costs £1000 a day.
It's an interesting nuance because it, like you said, you
know, you're in the, you're in the business, the music
business, but your approach is very unique.
You're very much a cultivator versus an administrator.
I've always been really impressed with your approach to
marketing. And again, that's a super
(23:16):
general topic, but I think of like Moby.
I always thought Moby was a massive success, success because
people picked up on it and put it into advertising.
But I believe that was actually something that just came from
you from Mute. You were like, why isn't Moby?
Why isn't this album popular? And there's this real savviness.
(23:37):
And it just makes me think in many ways, you're an industry
Unicorn. You're somebody who is not
afraid to take risks. You your first opinion, your
first kind of analysis is correct.
Really. When Play came out, it took a
year before before people cottoned onto it.
Really. We released 4 singles before
anybody even knew about it. It was crazy.
(23:59):
We didn't think it was going to be as big as it was, but we all
thought it had real potential. But people weren't picking up on
it. Maybe it was the timing, who
knows, But by the time the fourth single came out, it was a
different story. And regarding the advertise, you
know, using music for ads, it was still a time when a lot of
musicians and labels, including us.
Were very wary about. Using our music in advertising,
(24:21):
it was the first time it was used.
The late Brian Griffin, the photographer, was a good friend
of Mute. He did the first five Depeche
Mode, but he got into making commercials.
That's right, yeah. And he was a huge music fan and
he did a car out and he wants touse another one of our artists
(24:41):
for the music, which is Panasonic, who who are very
experimental electronic thing. We were very excited about that
and used Panasonic and the agency were OK with it.
But he went to the head of the car company and he said no.
And Brian had a copy of Play in his editing suite.
So he put that on. He used Find My Baby for the ad.
(25:01):
And I think that was the first use of the, of the, of the
music. And then somehow it became the
sound of advertising. I don't know.
I don't know how that mental route works.
Music supervisors who do TV or ads, they need somebody else to
be affirmative of, of a style. So and so somebody's been brave
(25:22):
enough to do that. In this case, Brian, would you
always take one person to take that first step?
I think an as an outsider, the element of your approach to
musicians and and giving them anopportunity to record and
release, etcetera. It's very much willing to take
that at risk as it were, or to say believe in them and say this
(25:45):
is stuff people should be aware of and then people cock grab
onto it. But you know, don't get me
wrong, we've had our failures, definitely, but nothing but
never anything I've regretted doing.
But you probably don't know about the failures.
Or failures you've never heard you've never heard.
It exactly. That's why they were saying it's
(26:05):
because they didn't. So going way back now, why did
you want to start your own label?
I, I know the way MU came about to a certain extent.
It's somewhat legendary. You recorded Warm Leatherette on
a four track in your mum's house, then Fat Gadget sent you
a tape and then you went to see Fat Gadget and Depeche Mode were
(26:29):
playing and then you started Mute Records.
That's that's kind of the right or not quite right.
OK. I mean, when I put out my first
single, I had no intention of starting a record play.
I just wanted to put out singlesbecause it was the type of DIY
just after punk. And I was always into music and
I was starting to get into making electronic music in my
(26:51):
bedroom. And I thought, why not just put
something out Nobody's going to buy.
It doesn't really matter. And it actually turned out to be
in that world, that sort of alternative world, relatively
successful, which kind of confused me.
And I was starting to get demo tapes because I put my address
on the sleeve. That was nothing that I
particularly liked. And then then I met Sad Gadget
through mutual friends, really liked what he did.
(27:15):
We got on very well. And so that was the beginning of
Mute as a label when I started working with Frank.
And then there were a number of other artists before Depeche.
It was DAF, which was the first album on Mute, Decline on De
Burzen and did Robert Rental single Silicon Teams, which is
really my project. Yeah.
(27:36):
And then I met Dipesh who was supporting Fad Gadget at the
Bridge House in Camden in Northampton Town, Canning Town.
So that's just like a short version of your story, slightly
different than Auburn. So you not at that time, but a
little bit before that, you wereliving in Switzerland, right?
You were working as a DJ and then you came back to England to
(27:59):
be part of the punk scene and something you said that
interested me was that you thought that the punk music was
quite conservative, but you liked the ethos.
So what did you like about punk?There's a couple of things that
I didn't come back to the UK to be part of the scene, OK, I was
never part of any scene really at that point.
Fair enough. But the job had finished in
(28:20):
Switzerland around April and so I came back to London.
I've been reading about punk andthe kind of excitement around
it. So I was very, I'm super excited
about it and soon after I got. Back I was.
Listening to John Peel and as I turned the radio and it was in
the middle of a song and I had no idea who it was and I
(28:43):
thought, God, this sounds great.It sounds like Noi.
A. Little bit.
And then there's a place where normally there would be a solo.
OK. And there was no solo.
This is amazing. What is this?
And then it was turned out it was the Ramones.
And that was my first contact with punk rock.
And I found that really. Yeah, conventional
(29:04):
instrumentally, but very unconventional in the form and
that Ramones album. So I went straight out and
bought that album. I was in love with that record.
And then the first English British singles started coming
out. The Pistols, the Dams.
And it was exciting time, you know, I was very bored anyway,
but by that time I was very bored with most of the music
(29:26):
that was coming out of the UK and America.
And it was, it becomes so self indulgent and this was the
opposite of self indulgent in a way.
It was self indulgent but not self indulgent.
It's not self indulgent musically.
And I just became very excited by the whole scene.
And then the DIY thing really started and there was quite a
few group called the Desperate Bicycles and they did an
(29:49):
article, I think it was in the Melody Makers, how to release
your own single basically. And I thought this is pretty
exciting. But by that time punk, the music
side of it didn't really move. It went in different directions
basically either carried on as it was, which was boring, or it
carried on to Public Image Limited, which was great.
And so it was diversifying and it felt like people were really
(30:11):
open to listen to new things forthe first time forever,
basically. And I'd always been into
electronic music and it inspiredme to buy a synthesizer and tape
recorder, which I mean, it's a very important kind of moment
which didn't just affect me, butaffected a lot of other people.
(30:32):
Human League, OMD, you know, Soft Cell.
It was a moment in time which was like super imagined, super
exciting in times in terms of people's openness to music.
It was a time when synthesizers became affordable for normal
(30:53):
people. Before that they were very
expensive and so the Japanese synths were starting to come in.
Chord and Roland. Especially now they were coming
on the second hand market. So it was the beginning of post
punk electronic music. Should we say the interest in
it, the distribution method through independent distributors
like Rough Trade? And you didn't have to go to
recording studio to make it. And so all that happened in a
(31:16):
short space of time. So all those people, including
me, were doing things in in. I mean, I didn't know anybody at
that time. I didn't know Cabaret Voltaire
or Robin Bristol's Human Being. I didn't know them.
I didn't know that I was just doing off my own back.
But everybody was doing a similar thing and all inspired
by similar musicians, especiallyGerman musicians like Cannes and
craft work and and inspired by that and then through the filter
(31:40):
of punk. Hi there.
Sorry for the interruption, but if you're enjoying the show,
please leave a review or a comment for the latest news and
updates. Make sure to also follow us on
Instagram at destroyed Punk podcast.
Thank you. And now back to the show.
So coming out of that, and I'm going to jump forward a little
(32:02):
bit from there, which is what isit about techno that you love?
Because I know you still DJ occasionally.
Yeah, occasionally. OK, What is it about techno that
you love? Is that a true statement?
I love it because first of all, most importantly, it's got to
work on the dance floor. Because if not, then it doesn't
(32:23):
really work at all, right? And so within those parameters,
within that parameter, to make something that's original
electronic music is quite hard. So a lot of techno, which isn't
very good in every genre, but the really good one is where
people have used the limitation of techno or the strictures of
techno and used that in a very creative way with electronic
(32:46):
music. So, you know, basically you only
ever have two or three things going at once, maybe four or
five maximum going at once sonically, and you have to make
them all work together. And a lot of techno producers
who are also into experimental music, so they're using the
techno format to experiment withelectronic music, which I think
(33:08):
is really interesting. I actually don't really like the
term electronic experimental music, but that's another that's
another question. One of the most experimental
bands of the 70s was ABBA. Interesting.
OK, the trouble with the term experimental music now means
unlistenable pretty much. But it's not about the output,
it's about the input, the experimental input.
(33:30):
And ABBA used a lot of very interesting techniques in the
early 70s, recording techniques to to, to achieve their sound,
like using different speeds of tape and backwards and all sorts
of really interesting things. And they're all experimental in
the sense that they were experiments.
The definition of an experiment is either it either fails or
(33:51):
succeeds. If somebody said to me about
Sunroof the band project out with Gareth and I said
experimental music, they would immediately think, oh, it's not
very. Listenable.
And it may not be very listenable, but that's not
because it's experimental. It's because it's because of the
input that we put into it, not the output that comes out.
That's all. It's just one of those words.
Let's say lazy words. Sure.
Yeah, I love that. It makes a lot of sense and I
(34:12):
think it it gets more to how music is made versus the labels
and genres that things get thrown into.
Sometimes when I'm researching about a band or whatever, it's
sometimes they get categorized in so many different categories.
I'm like which category actuallyare they?
And then it's so it comes almostnonsensical to a certain extent.
(34:35):
Yeah. I mean, there's the subgenre of
the subgenre, right? I don't know is God knows how
many, so I have no idea how to me, I know exactly what I mean
by techno. I can't put into words, but I I
know when I hear something to methat's techno and to me that's
not techno. I know I know that pretty
immediately. You know I.
Don't know if you've ever thought about this, but where do
(34:55):
you see the birth of techno coming from?
Is it through bands like CAN andCraft Work, John Cage, Cabaret
Voltaire, OMD, all of the above?Or I don't know if it's
something you've ever thought. About there's definitely techno
artists or producers who weren'twho are fans of that music.
I think there's there's a bit ofa lineage before there was
(35:17):
techno. This is like going back a miss
of time. There was EBM electronic body
music. People like nights are AB DAF
Front 242 a lot of a lot of things like that.
There's there's quite a few interesting documentaries about
techno. There's like the Frankfurt
School who said they invented techno.
(35:39):
Obviously Berlin Post Wall techno.
I just I you know, I think it's really hard to say.
I think you could in a way go back to I feel.
Love. Yes.
Like Donald Summer? Sure.
Yeah. Giulio Morodo.
People like DAF Knights Red, whoused sequence dance music and
Front 242 and it's really, it's a very hard, it's hard to put
(36:02):
your finger on it. Who was the first techno artist?
It's a lot of different. Versions.
It was less about who was the first, it was more, and I think
he answered the question as probably a combination of
things. There's so many different
influences, you know, coming together.
House music probably came just abit before techno, right?
And again, it was the availability of the tools to
(36:24):
make it that was the key thing. These people were not making
records in big studios with veryexpensive equipment.
They were either making them at home or in very cheap studio
spaces. That's a good question to which
I don't really have an answer, No.
That's fine. You touched on Sunroof, which is
a project you're doing right now.
You just had an album out for Sunroof.
It's the fourth in a series. Third, third album is just about
(36:47):
to come out. Yeah.
One of the things I love about doing this podcast is that it
has taken me down many new avenues of music and discovering
sunroof. It was revelationary.
It's beautiful music. And something that occurred to
me though, was, you know, you'veworked with Gareth Jones for a
(37:09):
long time. It must be hard to be objective
about your own music. You don't think about it when
we're making. It.
Right. And I worked with Gareth since
the early 80s. We worked on three Depeche
records together as producers. He's produced many Mute artists
after that, and he still is, actually just produced the last
Jan Tearson record. We're very guided by practical
(37:34):
issues, right? Time being the main one.
We're both busy people doing ourday jobs, so there's very little
time we can actually get together.
Right and. When we do, we just patch
modules and start playing really, and then if we hear that
something's good, we press record for 5 minutes and then
(37:55):
carry on. And we use the sort of a
technique which I learned from photography because I'm a keen
amateur photographer as well. St.
Photographer. Not very good but I'm keen.
Interesting. A lot of St. photographers and
maybe other kinds of photographers as well, they
don't look at their pictures forthree months until after they've
been taken. Because when you're taking a
photograph or you're in the studio or whatever you're doing,
(38:18):
there's a specific set of circumstances or feelings that
relate to what you do. So you might have a headache
that day if you're in the studioor you felt great that day.
And then if you try and judge the music, you're always using
those those feelings and that's not very good if you really want
to judge it. So we didn't listen to the music
for months afterwards, and then we did.
(38:38):
And we were all both very surprised by a number of things.
One was how good some of it was,how bad some of it was.
But interestingly, I think that we couldn't remember doing it
and we couldn't remember who didwhich sound.
It became. It became really, it became
really like an audience rather than a producer and I, and that
(39:01):
was, I mean, I think that's a really good way of doing things.
It's not always practical in themusic business because you want
to get the album out, but for usthere was no real pressure for
that. You just get to hear it
objectively. It's fun and depressing at
times. It's also fun.
So you still DJA little bit and you're producing and making
music and so on and so forth andrunning a company.
(39:23):
And we play live sometimes as well.
I did see that. Which we enjoy very much.
What motivates you? What?
What drives you? Well, in in general, you mean?
Yeah, I'm lucky that I can do those different things.
First of all, if I was just running the label, if I was just
a musician or just whatever, DJIthink my interest would weigh in
(39:45):
quite quickly. But because I can pick and
choose a little bit what I do, obviously with the label, I have
a lot of responsibilities which I take seriously, and that's
always the kind of priority, right?
But what motivates me? I don't know.
I like music. I think I love music.
But there's very little music that I love.
Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%.
(40:05):
I don't love. There's a lot of music that I
don't love and that's always been the case.
Even when I was just like a teenager, I had a very small
record collection and I still haven't people go where's your
record collection? So I don't really have a big
record collection at all becauseI don't really want, not that
interested in music that I don'tlove.
From a sunroof point of view. Having an performing something
live in front of an audience, it's exciting.
(40:26):
Especially the kind of thing we're doing which is very
improvised so you're never quitesure how it's going to work out.
It's just exciting. Same with DJ and different, very
different, but trying to see howyou're relating to an audience
musically, I think is really exciting.
So in terms of a label, right, trying to find something that's
new. Or or or.
Very original or very special and and working with the artist
(40:49):
that makes that kind of music isreally exciting.
And watching that develop artistdevelopment for me is really
exciting. And that's we're not the kind of
label that does a one off singleto see how it goes.
We commit. We really commit to a long term
relationship, so that's exciting.
That's really exciting. I read that you had a dislike
for a Brit pop and I wonder whatyou thought about the Oasis
(41:11):
reunion. Be right back.
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Brit pop. It's not that I disliked it, I
didn't like it, but it became ubiquitous at a certain point
(42:37):
and I think Oasis is really goodas a band, really good songs,
but there's so many so-called Brit pop bands and you couldn't
get on the radio, you couldn't get on the into the press.
It was all about Brit pop. Blur, a really great band, but
there was so much rubbish that kind of polluted in my opinion,
the media. It was a difficult time for us
(42:58):
and I don't really hate it, it'sjust that I hate the way that
people excluded, pretty much excluded all other kinds of
music at that point. I knew Noel Gallagher very well
before Oasis because he was a roadie for spiral carpets and I
did not know that. And we always go on very well.
And if I ever bumped into him wherever it was hardly ever.
(43:20):
We always have a good chat. So I was very happy for him
because he's very, he was very talented even as AI don't know
he was a talented roadie, but hehe played guitar and stuff, so
that was good. Yeah.
And the reunion is what I don't like the way they did the ticket
pricing. Yeah, you know, the reunions,
you know, if people want to go and watch it, great.
(43:42):
People enjoy it, great. I don't have a problem with.
It's like the stones throwing stones.
Carry on. I personally, I have seen the
stones live, but that was a verylong time ago.
I'm personally not that interested in seeing them
anymore. I was a big fan of back end when
I was a teenager. But if they want to do it and
people want to see it, fantastic.
It actually gets into something that I I was interested to know
(44:04):
what you thought that these daysplatforms like Spotify and Apple
Music are driving much of the music industry and that I read a
lot about how musicians struggleto make a name for themselves.
Do you think that's true, or is it the same as it ever was,
meaning it's always been hard for bands to make a name for
(44:27):
themselves, to breakthrough and so on?
It's always been hard. It's very different the way
people listen to music now. It's completely different to how
they listen to music when I was growing up or even 10 years.
Ago and that's. That can be quite difficult for
an artist who makes a great album, but people are into one
track and they're not really interested in the album.
(44:47):
But in a sense that used to be like that.
He might have one hit of an album, the one single that was
on the album, and nobody would buy the album.
They're always gay. Cheapest.
There are a lot more ways of getting your music out there
these days, incomparable to whenI started.
But there's also ton more music,so it's equal evens itself out.
(45:08):
I think a lot of the music is OK.
Maybe 5050% is just not very good or it doesn't interest me,
right? 40% is OK but not exceptional.
And there's like tiny percentageat the top, which is
exceptional. And that's always been the case.
People can get all sentimental about the charts of the 60s and
70s. But if you look, there's tons of
(45:29):
crap, frankly, in the charts in those days.
I think that there's good positive things about Spotify
and Apple Music. I think the fact that your music
will be up there, not forever, there's no forever, but long
after it would be available in aconventional record shop, right?
And I think that's great. And for some people, over time
you can make some money as an artist like that.
(45:50):
You might not have a huge record, but over time that
builds up to five years, for instance, it starts to build up
possibly. So I think that's the positive
thing. Your music as a musician is out
there for many years to come. You get paid very little play,
right? But sometimes people, if they
like the record, like the song record, if they like the song
(46:12):
and they play a lot, then you might get a bit of money.
And if you're like Edge Sheeran or something like that, you make
a fortune, right? More than you would ever have
made by selling records. There are a lot of nuances in
that. It's that very misunderstood
English expression. Swings and roundabouts.
Swings and roundabouts. It's comparing apples with
(46:34):
oranges. You've been developing a limited
edition, build it yourself Mute Synth, which seems really
exciting. You seem excited about that from
what I've read and I'm curious, do you see that as blossom into
something where Mute Records is making synthesizers?
(46:58):
That's a. No, not really.
We made three of the Mute synths.
I think it was 3 a few, quite a few years ago now, but they were
stand alone machines really. But then I'm very into modular
since I started to get to know some of the manufacturers and
there's a great kind of company called Future Sound Systems
based in Bristol. And we did a couple of modules
(47:20):
together. We never built anything
ourselves, but they were kind ofthose modules basically what I
thought would be useful. I'd like to do more of that
actually, but it's time and, andthere are so many great modules
out there. There's thousands of really good
modules. I don't know what I could come
up with that would really be an improvement on something that's
already there with so many greatmodules out there at the moment.
(47:43):
It's so tangential to the music industry, but at the same time
it's so integral, but it's so it's it's a little bit and this
is a strange analogy maybe, but Apple making a car is oh, wow,
what would that must that would be really cool kind of thing
because they have so much experience in terms of making
amazing things. And so with mute records, you
mute making synth is, oh, that would be an amazing synth.
(48:06):
That's super kind of pedestrian that you want to look at it.
But it makes me think about AI and I don't know if you how that
is impacting how how you feel that's impacting music in a good
or bad way. If you if it's something you
even think about. I do think about it a bit.
I think it swings and roundabouts.
(48:28):
AI in terms of say, music software is fantastic what AI
can do. It really takes it to another
level. But I heard a track, it was
something that was like a demonstration rather than a
commercial project using an AI version of Dave Garns voice.
(48:49):
How interesting on a track that was designed to sound like
Depeche Mode. Interesting the track, the voice
was pretty sadly pretty close not you could tell the
difference, but it was close thetrack wasn't nowhere near as
good as the depression track Nowthat's something obviously
that's really on everybody's radar.
(49:09):
Of course, voice over actor or whatever broadcaster, musician
say OK, I want a track that sounds like The Beatles and then
you get something that sounds like The Beatles, right it's not
The Beatles. So there's all those kind of
things about copyright and who owns, do you own your own voice?
And it's very, it's complicated and I don't really want to get
(49:31):
into the weeds of that because that's right.
I just want to respond to it. Really.
There's not much I can do about it.
Yeah, of course. Yes, there's, but there's
definitely positives about AI inthe production of music rather
than the composing of music and maybe in the composer music for
certain kinds of things. I have no idea.
Going back to punk, in your opinion, do you feel that punk
(49:53):
was the last cultural revolution?
I don't think punk was the last.I think dance music has been,
it's huge. And that really came after punk
late 80s. Now it's huge, which I think is
incredible. Of course, now the the, the
diversification of music throughthrough streaming, it makes it
less easy for one particular genre to to be predominant.
(50:20):
OK, so the answer to your question is I have no idea
because I people ask me questions like what do you think
the future of music is? And I I really don't know.
Yeah, I think it's, no, it's a really fairpoint and it's not a
wrong answer. It's a wrong answer.
It's a really fairpoint. It's just something that
(50:41):
fascinates me and it's less about the music because I don't
see, I don't see a correlation necessarily between punk music
and the music of today is more what you said early on about the
ethos and how you know to do it yourself and how it enabled
yourself and others to get into what you love to do and so on
(51:04):
and so forth. So I think you can try.
You can trace things like techno, I think for instance,
you can trace back to punk in a way, but a lot of the people who
are making techno wouldn't have any clue about that.
But you can. And you can trace it back to
craft work and you can trace it back to and you can trace punk
to. A lot of punk musicians were
(51:26):
into bands like Cannes and John Lydon famously applied for the
job as lead singer of Cannes at one point.
And the people like Hawkwind, who I loved as well, not a
typical British band at the time, and Noy and a lot of punk
musicians before punk was punk into that kind of music.
It all, it all feeds into each other, even if people aren't
(51:47):
conscious of it. There are a lot of people who
are one person, labels right now, for instance, putting out a
couple of singles. And that's very much part of the
punk ethos musically. Yeah, I guess so.
The bands who sound like they could have been punk bands.
Maybe because it's about energy as much as the actual musical
content. It's about the energy of punk at
(52:09):
a point where music was very stayed and very boring and self
indulgent and punk came like a massive shot in the arm.
And will there be a type of music?
That comes along. That has the same effect that
punk had, or that psychedelia had or the 60s pop thing had.
(52:30):
Very hard to say, very difficultI think.
But that doesn't mean it can't happen.
One last question before you have to jump.
Something I was curious to talk about was the Miller Zuma
Foundation. There's some really amazing
things happening. It would be good to hear a bit
more about that because I thought it was a really
interesting thing you are doing today.
(52:52):
Yeah, it's it's. Me and my wife Deanne, she's a.
Visual artist, photographer, video artist, painter.
And I think at some point we just felt we've got between US
and the people we know. There's quite a lot of talents
there. And how do we put those to use
(53:12):
in a way that's not just about us, us creating, but but somehow
use that to to bring people together in a different way.
So you know. We we started.
Out with a couple of projects. There was one of which was a
modular synthesizer ensemble. Yeah, who existed before us.
We didn't create that. But that existed before.
(53:35):
And I'd seen them, it's run by an Austrian guy called Gammon.
And I'd seen that and it was like, I always found it
incredibly moving to see it's basically young teenagers from
10 to maybe 15 or something likethat.
And. He gets he, he.
Contacts schools or different youth organizations looking for
(53:59):
volunteers who want to be part of this ensemble.
And he'll meet them in the morning and they have no musical
experience. Normally they don't play any
other instrument. And he has like, I think it's 12
or 14 little modular setups, right?
And he'll teach them how to use those and then they'll make a
(54:22):
piece, compose a piece together,and then in the afternoon
they'll perform it live. So it's remarkable.
It's really very moving. I remember the first time I saw
it was with a couple of like hard bitten modular synthesis
and we were all really in tears.It was.
Just incredible. So when we decided to.
(54:44):
Start the foundation. That was one of the projects I
wanted to support and we still do.
And they, and that's a really wonderful experience for, for
people, yeah. And then we did these online.
Artist residences where we, we put out a call saying, hey, if
you want to participate in this workshop, like a residency right
(55:05):
online, you know, write to us and, and we got a lot of
applications as we picked 4 artists from different
disciplines. We 4 artists who we thought
would work. Together.
Well, we interviewed them online.
And then we put them in a space,not a digital space.
We gave them the stipend for three months and in that period
to produce something as a group and, and it was incredible.
(55:29):
It was a social experiment as much as an artistic experiment.
Watching these people from different countries with
different disciplines we've never met coming together to
work on a play. It was really satisfying.
It's a bit like putting a band together, basically said OK,
make an album in three months. And then there's a number of
other projects that we're supporting as well, and there's
(55:49):
some very long term projects. We've worked with an
organization called East, but what they've done in the past is
they've rented a train in East Africa and put artists in there
from different, similar, very similar kind of concepts to our
residencies, but it's all done in a train.
Right, OK. And the.
Train goes through Africa and they pick people up on the.
(56:10):
Way. Artists and they work together
on the train and then in the endthey have an exhibition.
I think it's a brilliant projectagain.
It's not our. It's not the project that we
invented, but it's one we're supporting.
Yeah, so. And we're working with a gallery
space in Berlin called CLV and we're putting on an exhibition
from one of our artists. And then in the spring it's,
(56:31):
it's moving along. It's not a, it's not a very,
it's not a good. Time for things like this and
financially but. We have some really generous
donors. Who helped keep it going?
Yeah. And support a lot of really good
supporters. And it's it's something that we
find very enjoyable, worthwhile,satisfying, all those things.
Brilliant. Brilliant.
(56:52):
I'm going to let you go and say thank you.
We've been wonderful to chat with you.
Thank you. Yeah.
Lovely. I've enjoyed it.
I've enjoyed talking about myself.
As we all do. All right.
Thanks. The best.
Yeah, you too. Thank you very much.
Bye, bye, bye. My name is Richard Smith and I'm
(57:14):
your host. I'm a filmmaker and art director
and Once Upon a time I was part of the big 80s.
I designed record covers for Depeche Mode.
I danced with Bono, discussed art with Mick Jagger and drank
tea with Suzie Sue. I also grew up during those
turbulent times in England in the late 70s and was driven by
the Do it Yourself ethos with punk.
I obsessed over bands like Joy Division and New Order and went
(57:34):
on to work for the album cover designer Peter Savile.
I believe that year, that momentin 1976 when a bunch of foul
mouthed yobs cursed and swore onnational television, changed the
future of culture forever and iswhat brought us to where we are
today. So where do we go from here?
Will emerging new technologies be the catalyst that tears down
the walls of mediocrity, throwing culture and society
(57:57):
into chaos and revolution again?We'll have to wait and see.
This has been another episode ofDestroy.
Thank you for listening destroyisaberightbackstudiosproductionlearnmore@berightbackstudios.com
and please tune in again for another episode of Destroy the
Influence of Punk podcast wherever you listen or download
(58:17):
you. Write back.
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