March 31, 2025 • 24 mins
Jon Savage’s journey into the heart of youth culture began at Cambridge University, where he turned his back on a career in law to pursue his passion for music and cultural criticism.
From his early days writing fanzines in the 1970s to his influential roles at Sounds and Melody Maker, Savage became a defining voice in the world of punk and beyond.
His landmark book England’s Dreaming captured the essence of punk, which, for Savage, was never just a genre, it was a cultural movement that challenged the status quo and created a space for personal expression and rebellion.
In his latest book, The Secret Public, Savage explores the transformative power of LGBTQ+ resistance in popular culture and delves into how groundbreaking artists like Little Richard and David Bowie used their music and public personas not just to break taboos but to redefine the very concept of identity, carving out new spaces for self-expression, leaving a lasting impact on music and culture.
Savage’s place in the history of music journalism is firmly established, and his passion for music and its power to affect change has never waned. To this day he sees punk’s DIY ethos as still offering a framework for artists to create and express themselves on their terms, despite the overwhelming influence of corporate interests in the modern music industry.
“Punk was about doing things for yourself—if you want to say something, play an instrument, or write, then just do it. That’s the most important lesson it left us.” (Jon Savage)
Savage continues to write and contribute to publications like The Guardian and Mojo, offering fresh insights into the intersections of music, culture, and politics. His work remains vital in understanding the cultural forces shaping our world, whether through his writing, public lectures, or interviews.
In this episode, Savage reflects on the lasting influence of punk, the changing media landscape, and the ongoing impact of artists like Bowie and Little Richard in reshaping societal norms.
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Follow us on Instagram @destroypunkpodcast for the latest updates.
Or visit us online: https://destroypunkpodcast.com for transcripts, show notes, and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
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and conditions apply. The biggest band in the world
(01:05):
with The Beatles were packaged by a game manager.
So the queer influence on pop music is extraordinary.
And indeed directly was a place where LGBTQ people could find a
home, could actually occupy themselves without being fired
or without bigotry. And also get some money and get
some affirmation. So it goes right through.
(01:26):
So it is incredibly important. By the mid 70s, England was on
the brink of a cultural shift. The decline of industry, the
lingering effects of post war austerity and growing
disillusionment created a climate ripe for anarchy.
It was in this unrest that punk emerged, raw, rebellious and
defiant, offering a powerful response to a society desperate
(01:50):
for transformation. Fanzines like Sniffing Glue were
key and documenting and driving the conversation.
Music, design and youth culture collided in new, ground breaking
ways, and magazines like Sounds and Melody Maker didn't just
report on the scene, they shapedit.
Voices such as Caroline Coon, Linda Sterling, Barney Bubbles
(02:11):
and Paul Morley pushed the boundaries of music, fashion and
graphic design in new, unconventional ways.
But they didn't just witness thechange, they were at the
forefront, defining it. The outer space where rebellion
and self-expression would forever alter popular culture.
In episode 11, we delve into thelife of someone whose passion
(02:31):
for music and cultural criticismhas defined their entire career,
and who continues to unearth thehidden treasures buried deep in
the underground. My name is Richard Smith, I'm an
art director and a filmmaker, and I'm your host.
Welcome to Destroy. Rockers.
(02:52):
Raw, outrageous and crude. The new craze, they tell me,
more into chaos than anything else.
People really don't understand what kids want.
Worthless. Nasty.
Now hello. Welcome to Destroy, a podcast
about how the punk movement of 1976 or the Cultural Revolution
still being felt today. You have to destroy in order to
(03:13):
create. Destroy is produced by Be Right
Back Studios. Visit
berightbackstudios.com/destroy to learn more.
If you're enjoying the show, visit our website
destroypunkpodcast.com to learn more about every episode,
including interview transcripts,show notes, music videos,
(03:33):
curated playlists and more. Thank you for listening.
Few people have championed the merits of youth culture more
than my guest today. Upon graduating from Cambridge
University, he he published his first fanzine, London's Outrage
in 1976, which landed him his first job at the music magazine
(03:55):
Sounds Much to his parents this May.
He's written definitive histories of punk guys to the
evolution of teenagers, and his most recent book, The Secret
Public defines how LGBTQ resistance has shaped popular
culture. He's also written for the
Observer, The New Statesman and Mojo and is someone who is not
(04:16):
afraid to speak his mind. I'm very grateful he made time
to be here today. Please welcome to the show John
Savage. John, thank you.
It's a nice to have you on. Hi.
Yes. By the way, are you still living
in Wales? I saw that you had moved to
Wales. Correct.
Yeah, I'm still. Here, that must be beautiful.
It is, except when there's a storm.
(04:39):
I've seen some of your pictures on Instagram.
It looks very nice I'm sure, regardless of the weather.
It is based. It's better than better than
London. Why did you move out of London?
Couldn't stand it anymore. What didn't you like?
Just noise really, Too many people.
I didn't have enough money then to really buy somewhere bigger.
(05:02):
Let's. Just get going.
So you've been a music journalist, a critic and author
since the early 70s, first at Sounds and then at Melody Maker.
My first question was why were you drawn to youth culture?
Well, it was the only thing thatwas happening.
That's the main thing. It was the only thing to me that
was happening when I was a youngteenager.
(05:25):
I was born in 53 and so I heard The Beatles in 63.
I saw the whole 60s happen in front of my eyes, so why would I
not be fascinated? And certainly when I left
university and was coming out into the world, you know what
cultural artefact told me what Ineeded to know?
(05:46):
It wasn't a novelist, it wasn't Martin Amis, it wasn't poetry,
it was the Ramones. So it's always been music.
Right. I think some people quite like
music, other people are obsessedand I'm one of those that are
obsessed with music and always have been really since 1962.
Tell me about your recent book, The Secret Public, because in
(06:07):
many ways there's not an analogy, but there's a
similarity to the point I'm getting out about the influence
of that community on culture, etcetera.
Just talk to me about that and how you see see it impacting the
world. Pop culture is soft power.
It's hard power as politics, media, everyday news, etcetera.
(06:30):
Culture is soft power is seeing somebody strange walking down
the street, is listening to a record that turns your head and
stays with you and makes you look at the world in a different
way, or it's a book, or it's a painting.
Pop culture since really 1955, the advent of Rock'n'roll just
before has been incredibly awesome for lesbians and gays
and bisexual and trans people ingiving them visibility.
(06:52):
There was a time when they were illegal.
It was illegal to be, to be a male homosexual, to express who
you were, your sexual and and emotional life until 1967.
So this was a time of great repression.
And in the midst of this time ofgreat repression, you have
Little Richard. How does that work?
(07:13):
Little Richard is self identifies as bisexual, had a
lot of gay experiences. His first hit Tutti Crutti has
the original lyric are all aboutanal sex.
So this is extraordinary. It goes into the American top 30
in early 50 picks right in the middle of the McCarthy era.
So it is resistance really, but it's couched in in popular
(07:36):
culture. It's couched in novelty.
It's couched in a language that adults don't understand, but
teenagers do. And so the Book of Us covers
195519611960, 7/19/73 and 1978. And there are people like Andy
Warhol, Johnny Ray, James Dean, Elvis, John Lace and Joe Meek,
(07:58):
Robert Stigwood, Brian Epstein, Dusty Springfield, Janis Joplin,
David Bowie, New York Dolls, LouReed, Early Disco, Sylvester,
Bee Gees, etcetera. So there's a lot of artists in
there who all have some relevance to the general topic.
The take away I get from the book is it's the impact on
(08:24):
popular culture and changing, maybe not necessary opinions,
but just infiltrating the mainstream.
Or whether it be fashion, whether it be music, whether it
be design. Is that true?
I mean, the biggest band in the world will be The Beatles were
packaged by a game manager, right?
So the queer influence on pop music is extraordinary.
(08:46):
And indeed, or Italy was a placewhere LGBTQ people could find a
home, could actually occupy themselves without being fired
or without bigotry and also get some money and get some
affirmation so it goes right through.
So it is incredibly important. Right.
When you say resistance, what I like about that word is it has a
(09:08):
duality to it. It's almost public resistance
going against that community andthen as a community doing
something. I was curious what why you call
it the resistance? Hi there.
Sorry for the interruption, but if you're enjoying the show,
please leave a review or a comment for the latest news and
(09:29):
updates. Make sure to also follow us on
Instagram at Destroy Punk Podcast.
Thank you. And now, back to the show.
Well, because if you've got people telling you you're shit
from day one, to actually be yourself and to be who you are
is an act of resistance, whoeverit is, whether you're L, whether
you're G, whether you're B, whether you're T, you, whether
(09:49):
you're Q. But that's in itself is an act
of resistance because you've gotthe overwhelming drift to
society telling you not to be who you are.
Act of becoming who you are is an act of resistance.
And these people were doing it in public.
So it's incredibly brave in manyways.
The book's called Republic because for a long time the
(10:10):
existence of queer people was a secret.
But at the same time, they were the public.
They were just as much the public as anybody else.
They had jobs, they paid their taxes, They attempted to live
normal lives, but they couldn't because of society's oppression.
So what do you think of the important aspects of youth
culture today? Are there any?
(10:31):
Well, to be honest, I'm not really up on it.
I tend to focus on music. I realized there are malign
influences targeting young men, which of course, right, they
disapprove of. But I don't experience them
because I'm not a young man and I'm protected enough sanity, not
into that world needlessly. So all I see is music really.
(10:52):
And music is and always will be a great form of communication.
And the only thing I have to note really about music is it
seems to be dominated by young women, which seems to be a very
interesting and enjoyable state of affairs.
So what do you think about modify the streaming services
(11:12):
corporatisation of music? It seems very little room for
idiosyncrasy. If you're a parent or share a
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Terms and conditions apply. Except more people are releasing
records than ever before. The problem is not that people
don't have access to releasing records.
The problem is that how do you get attention?
When I started on the music press in 1977, it was very easy
(12:42):
to get attention. All you needed was a feature and
the enemy or sounds and the new bands might get a record
company. Interest doesn't like that
anymore. That's just the way things are.
I don't see it as being good or bad.
It's just different and adapt tothese circumstances and the way
that they know how. I'm certainly not one of those
people who keeps on saying, you know, it's better in my day.
(13:05):
A lot of things were worse in myday.
So I think it's horses for courses.
I play records, I listen to MP threes, I play CDs and I'm
afraid I do use Spotify. It's very convenient.
But if I find a record that I like on Spotify, I'll buy a
physical copy. I make sure to do that because
that's person the artist. Obviously it is weighted against
(13:26):
the artist. And in that respect it's much
like life in general at this moment, which is basically a
massive transfer of power to theplutocrats.
And there's and that's right across society.
OK, so let's jump back to the beginning then the filth and the
fury and all of that. Those moments back in 757677
(13:49):
spawned a lot of offspring. Do you think all of that had a
long term impact? And I don't have an enormous
amount to say about punk now. The only thing I can observe is
that it has spread worldwide andpeople take from it what they
can. And what they seem to take from
it is the idea of doing things for themselves, which I think is
(14:12):
very healthy. And that would be certainly one
lesson that it would be great for people to take for punk,
that you can just do it yourself.
If there's something you want tosay or you want to play an
instrument or write, then you can just do it.
Obviously getting it out there is more difficult because the
media landscape has changed so much in the last nearly 50
years, but that's an inspiring message to young people.
(14:36):
Do you think a lot of the characterization of punk was
driven by the media? Well, you're talking about
London punk, and certainly London punk.
Early English punk was an explicit engagement with the
media. So yes, it was very important.
And obviously the Grundy incident in December 76 changed
the whole thing and make punk stupid, help to promote punk at
(14:58):
the same time, help to make it anational issue.
And what is always interesting when pop culture becomes a
national issue, which it did again with Oasis and Blur.
And that's one of the reasons somany people want to see Oasis
again, because that was the lasttime the pop music was really a
national issue. And very interesting things
happen when pop becomes a national issue.
(15:19):
For the whole point about the Sex Pistols boat trip and the
Jubilee was that it was a perfect anti story to the
world's media who came to cover the Jubilee.
And the mediation was incrediblyimportant and partly punk was
critical and partly punk was fascinated by the media.
So it was complicated. I know you did a fanzine with
(15:40):
Linda, the artist Linda and whatwas inspiring you at that time?
Well, I'd always liked small magazines, so I liked the Zigzag
when Pete Frame edited and they did West Coast stuff.
And then there was a man called Brian Hawk who did these things
called Bam Balam, which were absolutely wonderful.
They said it was in 7475 and they mainly dealt with 60s, so
(16:04):
they straight into 70s for the flaming groupies.
They'd have the kinks on the cover or creation.
Right. And so it's all that kind of
hard mod stuff. And the guy and Brian wrote
beautifully about that was a real inspiration.
And then sniffing glue made the format possible.
All you need it was a few pages of a four and a photocopier and
off you go. I was very in montage.
(16:27):
This was the start of my montagework and I was very inspired by
John Hartfield, the German artist in the Weimar period, a
compendium books, you could get pamphlets on beach books.
And there was a montage 1 by a man called Claude Pellier and
that was an inspiration as well.So it was just, it's a wonderful
(16:48):
period where you could just, if you wanted to, out of nothing,
you could make art. And that's what it was.
And it was art as a form of communication rather than as a
form of instant communication, as opposed to being in a gallery
or being theorized about. It was just practice rather than
(17:09):
theory, which again, is a great moment.
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I saw you did an interview with JG Ballard.
That was in S&D 10, yeah. You interviewed him about his
book High Rise. He just seemed to be and very
pertinent to what was going on and I remember driving out to
(18:32):
see him and I had an advanced cassette of the screen by Susie
and Banshees really seemed to all go together.
You're a big fan of that album. Yes, it's great.
I mean, I saw Susie a lot in 77 or 78 and I was a huge fan.
Again, what was interesting to me about punk was not Four man
rock'n'roll. So I became or disinterested in
(18:56):
the clash in 1978 really. Just because of that.
Well, they started getting all macho and it was just like boys
club and it didn't seem interesting or new to me.
What was new was different kind of sex and gender roles.
So I was interested in Buzzcockswho presented a different kind
of masculinity and some way Sectwho also presented a different
kind of masculinity. They weren't being macho, they
(19:18):
weren't being violent. And I was also very interested
in the women who were coming through Suzie, the slits, X-ray
specs, right in particular I. Have one last question for you,
and I don't know if this is something you've thought about,
but do you think there will be acultural revolution like punk
again? Do you think we need that?
Is that something that could happen again?
(19:40):
I don't know. These things are historically
specific. Punk is 50 years old now.
I think the problem is that punkwas a product of scarcity and
focus scarcity in actual popularcultural scarcity of certainly
in white music. Of course, it's a wonderful
period from black, the 767576, but it wasn't a great period for
(20:05):
white music. There seemed as though there was
nothing happening. So that was one thing, and now
there's too much happening. And secondly, McLaren and
Westwood were able to really focus something and we're able
to present that. In a very stark form, really, to
the media, who then was still able to apply a focus.
(20:28):
There weren't that many music magazines.
Hundreds of thousands of young people every week read the music
press. In retrospect, Nicholas, you're
not going to get that concentration of media again.
And your book England is Dreaming, you trace the history
of beginning of punk through Churchill.
And when you talk about the Mohican and the Paris riots and
(20:49):
then how all of that confluence of situations, we came to Jamie
Reed and Malcolm McLaren messingabout, in many ways it seemed to
just happen. Is that a fair assessment or you
think it was something that was coming for a while?
I think Jamie and Malcolm glamorized 1968.
I think they felt it pull, I think it inspired them, gave
(21:14):
them something to work with, andthey transmuted it into
different forms. So I think it's valid in that
respect. So it's an entirely different
media landscape and it's an entirely different situation.
If I was a young person, the things that I would be concerned
about would be climate change. Is that something that you're
concerned about? Very much so, yeah, because it
(21:35):
affects everybody on the planet.But is it something that you're
actively trying to make a difference?
It's something I observe. I'm not involved in any
organisations trying to make a change.
I try to live responsible, responsibly and it's something
that I worry about a great deal.So if I was a young person,
that's the difference now, I wouldn't be involved in that
(21:57):
kind of culture. I would be involved in activism
concerning climate change. What do you think about the Just
Stop Oil movement and ExtinctionRebellion?
Do you think they can achieve anything?
It all depends whether you thinkthat nonviolent forms of protest
are going to achieve anything. And do.
(22:20):
You I remain equivocal about that.
Right. All right.
Well, thank you, John. OK.
Cheers. Bye, bye, bye bye.
My name is Richard Smith and I'myour host.
I'm a filmmaker and art directorand Once Upon a time I was part
of the big 80s. I designed record covers for
Depeche Mode. I danced with Bono, discussed
(22:42):
art with Mick Jagger and drank tea with Suzie Sue.
I also grew up during those turbulent times in England in
the late 70s and was driven by the Do it I obsessed over bands
like Joy Division and New Order and went on to work for the
album cover designer Peter Savile.
I believe that year, that momentin 1976 when a bunch of foul
mouthed yobs cursed and swore onnational television, changed the
(23:05):
future of culture forever and iswhat brought us to where we are
today. So where do we go from here?
Will emerging new technologies be the catalyst that tears down
the walls of mediocrity, throwing culture and society
into chaos and revolution again?We'll have to wait and see.
This has been another episode ofDestroy.
Thank you for listening destroyisaberightbackstudiosproductionlearnmore@berightbackstudios.com
(23:30):
and please tune in again for another episode of Destroy the
Influence of Punk podcast wherever you listen or download.
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just
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know you're reaching the right decision makers.
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(00:20):
You can try your full size at home for 14 days.
Just pay shipping. Take the quiz at
ilmakyash.com/quiz. That's ilmakiage.com/quiz.
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just
speaking into the boy boy? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can
know you're reaching the right decision makers.
You can even target buyers by job title, industry, company
(00:43):
seniority, skills. Wait, did I say job title yet?
Get started today and see how you can avoid the void and reach
the right buyers with LinkedIn ads.
We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign.
Get started at.linkedin.com/results Terms
and conditions apply. The biggest band in the world
(01:05):
with The Beatles were packaged by a game manager.
So the queer influence on pop music is extraordinary.
And indeed directly was a place where LGBTQ people could find a
home, could actually occupy themselves without being fired
or without bigotry. And also get some money and get
some affirmation. So it goes right through.
(01:26):
So it is incredibly important. By the mid 70s, England was on
the brink of a cultural shift. The decline of industry, the
lingering effects of post war austerity and growing
disillusionment created a climate ripe for anarchy.
It was in this unrest that punk emerged, raw, rebellious and
defiant, offering a powerful response to a society desperate
(01:50):
for transformation. Fanzines like Sniffing Glue were
key and documenting and driving the conversation.
Music, design and youth culture collided in new, ground breaking
ways, and magazines like Sounds and Melody Maker didn't just
report on the scene, they shapedit.
Voices such as Caroline Coon, Linda Sterling, Barney Bubbles
(02:11):
and Paul Morley pushed the boundaries of music, fashion and
graphic design in new, unconventional ways.
But they didn't just witness thechange, they were at the
forefront, defining it. The outer space where rebellion
and self-expression would forever alter popular culture.
In episode 11, we delve into thelife of someone whose passion
(02:31):
for music and cultural criticismhas defined their entire career,
and who continues to unearth thehidden treasures buried deep in
the underground. My name is Richard Smith, I'm an
art director and a filmmaker, and I'm your host.
Welcome to Destroy. Rockers.
(02:52):
Raw, outrageous and crude. The new craze, they tell me,
more into chaos than anything else.
People really don't understand what kids want.
Worthless. Nasty.
Now hello. Welcome to Destroy, a podcast
about how the punk movement of 1976 or the Cultural Revolution
still being felt today. You have to destroy in order to
(03:13):
create. Destroy is produced by Be Right
Back Studios. Visit
berightbackstudios.com/destroy to learn more.
If you're enjoying the show, visit our website
destroypunkpodcast.com to learn more about every episode,
including interview transcripts,show notes, music videos,
(03:33):
curated playlists and more. Thank you for listening.
Few people have championed the merits of youth culture more
than my guest today. Upon graduating from Cambridge
University, he he published his first fanzine, London's Outrage
in 1976, which landed him his first job at the music magazine
(03:55):
Sounds Much to his parents this May.
He's written definitive histories of punk guys to the
evolution of teenagers, and his most recent book, The Secret
Public defines how LGBTQ resistance has shaped popular
culture. He's also written for the
Observer, The New Statesman and Mojo and is someone who is not
(04:16):
afraid to speak his mind. I'm very grateful he made time
to be here today. Please welcome to the show John
Savage. John, thank you.
It's a nice to have you on. Hi.
Yes. By the way, are you still living
in Wales? I saw that you had moved to
Wales. Correct.
Yeah, I'm still. Here, that must be beautiful.
It is, except when there's a storm.
(04:39):
I've seen some of your pictures on Instagram.
It looks very nice I'm sure, regardless of the weather.
It is based. It's better than better than
London. Why did you move out of London?
Couldn't stand it anymore. What didn't you like?
Just noise really, Too many people.
I didn't have enough money then to really buy somewhere bigger.
(05:02):
Let's. Just get going.
So you've been a music journalist, a critic and author
since the early 70s, first at Sounds and then at Melody Maker.
My first question was why were you drawn to youth culture?
Well, it was the only thing thatwas happening.
That's the main thing. It was the only thing to me that
was happening when I was a youngteenager.
(05:25):
I was born in 53 and so I heard The Beatles in 63.
I saw the whole 60s happen in front of my eyes, so why would I
not be fascinated? And certainly when I left
university and was coming out into the world, you know what
cultural artefact told me what Ineeded to know?
(05:46):
It wasn't a novelist, it wasn't Martin Amis, it wasn't poetry,
it was the Ramones. So it's always been music.
Right. I think some people quite like
music, other people are obsessedand I'm one of those that are
obsessed with music and always have been really since 1962.
Tell me about your recent book, The Secret Public, because in
(06:07):
many ways there's not an analogy, but there's a
similarity to the point I'm getting out about the influence
of that community on culture, etcetera.
Just talk to me about that and how you see see it impacting the
world. Pop culture is soft power.
It's hard power as politics, media, everyday news, etcetera.
(06:30):
Culture is soft power is seeing somebody strange walking down
the street, is listening to a record that turns your head and
stays with you and makes you look at the world in a different
way, or it's a book, or it's a painting.
Pop culture since really 1955, the advent of Rock'n'roll just
before has been incredibly awesome for lesbians and gays
and bisexual and trans people ingiving them visibility.
(06:52):
There was a time when they were illegal.
It was illegal to be, to be a male homosexual, to express who
you were, your sexual and and emotional life until 1967.
So this was a time of great repression.
And in the midst of this time ofgreat repression, you have
Little Richard. How does that work?
(07:13):
Little Richard is self identifies as bisexual, had a
lot of gay experiences. His first hit Tutti Crutti has
the original lyric are all aboutanal sex.
So this is extraordinary. It goes into the American top 30
in early 50 picks right in the middle of the McCarthy era.
So it is resistance really, but it's couched in in popular
(07:36):
culture. It's couched in novelty.
It's couched in a language that adults don't understand, but
teenagers do. And so the Book of Us covers
195519611960, 7/19/73 and 1978. And there are people like Andy
Warhol, Johnny Ray, James Dean, Elvis, John Lace and Joe Meek,
(07:58):
Robert Stigwood, Brian Epstein, Dusty Springfield, Janis Joplin,
David Bowie, New York Dolls, LouReed, Early Disco, Sylvester,
Bee Gees, etcetera. So there's a lot of artists in
there who all have some relevance to the general topic.
The take away I get from the book is it's the impact on
(08:24):
popular culture and changing, maybe not necessary opinions,
but just infiltrating the mainstream.
Or whether it be fashion, whether it be music, whether it
be design. Is that true?
I mean, the biggest band in the world will be The Beatles were
packaged by a game manager, right?
So the queer influence on pop music is extraordinary.
(08:46):
And indeed, or Italy was a placewhere LGBTQ people could find a
home, could actually occupy themselves without being fired
or without bigotry and also get some money and get some
affirmation so it goes right through.
So it is incredibly important. Right.
When you say resistance, what I like about that word is it has a
(09:08):
duality to it. It's almost public resistance
going against that community andthen as a community doing
something. I was curious what why you call
it the resistance? Hi there.
Sorry for the interruption, but if you're enjoying the show,
please leave a review or a comment for the latest news and
(09:29):
updates. Make sure to also follow us on
Instagram at Destroy Punk Podcast.
Thank you. And now, back to the show.
Well, because if you've got people telling you you're shit
from day one, to actually be yourself and to be who you are
is an act of resistance, whoeverit is, whether you're L, whether
you're G, whether you're B, whether you're T, you, whether
(09:49):
you're Q. But that's in itself is an act
of resistance because you've gotthe overwhelming drift to
society telling you not to be who you are.
Act of becoming who you are is an act of resistance.
And these people were doing it in public.
So it's incredibly brave in manyways.
The book's called Republic because for a long time the
(10:10):
existence of queer people was a secret.
But at the same time, they were the public.
They were just as much the public as anybody else.
They had jobs, they paid their taxes, They attempted to live
normal lives, but they couldn't because of society's oppression.
So what do you think of the important aspects of youth
culture today? Are there any?
(10:31):
Well, to be honest, I'm not really up on it.
I tend to focus on music. I realized there are malign
influences targeting young men, which of course, right, they
disapprove of. But I don't experience them
because I'm not a young man and I'm protected enough sanity, not
into that world needlessly. So all I see is music really.
(10:52):
And music is and always will be a great form of communication.
And the only thing I have to note really about music is it
seems to be dominated by young women, which seems to be a very
interesting and enjoyable state of affairs.
So what do you think about modify the streaming services
(11:12):
corporatisation of music? It seems very little room for
idiosyncrasy. If you're a parent or share a
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Terms and conditions apply. Except more people are releasing
records than ever before. The problem is not that people
don't have access to releasing records.
The problem is that how do you get attention?
When I started on the music press in 1977, it was very easy
(12:42):
to get attention. All you needed was a feature and
the enemy or sounds and the new bands might get a record
company. Interest doesn't like that
anymore. That's just the way things are.
I don't see it as being good or bad.
It's just different and adapt tothese circumstances and the way
that they know how. I'm certainly not one of those
people who keeps on saying, you know, it's better in my day.
(13:05):
A lot of things were worse in myday.
So I think it's horses for courses.
I play records, I listen to MP threes, I play CDs and I'm
afraid I do use Spotify. It's very convenient.
But if I find a record that I like on Spotify, I'll buy a
physical copy. I make sure to do that because
that's person the artist. Obviously it is weighted against
(13:26):
the artist. And in that respect it's much
like life in general at this moment, which is basically a
massive transfer of power to theplutocrats.
And there's and that's right across society.
OK, so let's jump back to the beginning then the filth and the
fury and all of that. Those moments back in 757677
(13:49):
spawned a lot of offspring. Do you think all of that had a
long term impact? And I don't have an enormous
amount to say about punk now. The only thing I can observe is
that it has spread worldwide andpeople take from it what they
can. And what they seem to take from
it is the idea of doing things for themselves, which I think is
(14:12):
very healthy. And that would be certainly one
lesson that it would be great for people to take for punk,
that you can just do it yourself.
If there's something you want tosay or you want to play an
instrument or write, then you can just do it.
Obviously getting it out there is more difficult because the
media landscape has changed so much in the last nearly 50
years, but that's an inspiring message to young people.
(14:36):
Do you think a lot of the characterization of punk was
driven by the media? Well, you're talking about
London punk, and certainly London punk.
Early English punk was an explicit engagement with the
media. So yes, it was very important.
And obviously the Grundy incident in December 76 changed
the whole thing and make punk stupid, help to promote punk at
(14:58):
the same time, help to make it anational issue.
And what is always interesting when pop culture becomes a
national issue, which it did again with Oasis and Blur.
And that's one of the reasons somany people want to see Oasis
again, because that was the lasttime the pop music was really a
national issue. And very interesting things
happen when pop becomes a national issue.
(15:19):
For the whole point about the Sex Pistols boat trip and the
Jubilee was that it was a perfect anti story to the
world's media who came to cover the Jubilee.
And the mediation was incrediblyimportant and partly punk was
critical and partly punk was fascinated by the media.
So it was complicated. I know you did a fanzine with
(15:40):
Linda, the artist Linda and whatwas inspiring you at that time?
Well, I'd always liked small magazines, so I liked the Zigzag
when Pete Frame edited and they did West Coast stuff.
And then there was a man called Brian Hawk who did these things
called Bam Balam, which were absolutely wonderful.
They said it was in 7475 and they mainly dealt with 60s, so
(16:04):
they straight into 70s for the flaming groupies.
They'd have the kinks on the cover or creation.
Right. And so it's all that kind of
hard mod stuff. And the guy and Brian wrote
beautifully about that was a real inspiration.
And then sniffing glue made the format possible.
All you need it was a few pages of a four and a photocopier and
off you go. I was very in montage.
(16:27):
This was the start of my montagework and I was very inspired by
John Hartfield, the German artist in the Weimar period, a
compendium books, you could get pamphlets on beach books.
And there was a montage 1 by a man called Claude Pellier and
that was an inspiration as well.So it was just, it's a wonderful
(16:48):
period where you could just, if you wanted to, out of nothing,
you could make art. And that's what it was.
And it was art as a form of communication rather than as a
form of instant communication, as opposed to being in a gallery
or being theorized about. It was just practice rather than
(17:09):
theory, which again, is a great moment.
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I saw you did an interview with JG Ballard.
That was in S&D 10, yeah. You interviewed him about his
book High Rise. He just seemed to be and very
pertinent to what was going on and I remember driving out to
(18:32):
see him and I had an advanced cassette of the screen by Susie
and Banshees really seemed to all go together.
You're a big fan of that album. Yes, it's great.
I mean, I saw Susie a lot in 77 or 78 and I was a huge fan.
Again, what was interesting to me about punk was not Four man
rock'n'roll. So I became or disinterested in
(18:56):
the clash in 1978 really. Just because of that.
Well, they started getting all macho and it was just like boys
club and it didn't seem interesting or new to me.
What was new was different kind of sex and gender roles.
So I was interested in Buzzcockswho presented a different kind
of masculinity and some way Sectwho also presented a different
kind of masculinity. They weren't being macho, they
(19:18):
weren't being violent. And I was also very interested
in the women who were coming through Suzie, the slits, X-ray
specs, right in particular I. Have one last question for you,
and I don't know if this is something you've thought about,
but do you think there will be acultural revolution like punk
again? Do you think we need that?
Is that something that could happen again?
(19:40):
I don't know. These things are historically
specific. Punk is 50 years old now.
I think the problem is that punkwas a product of scarcity and
focus scarcity in actual popularcultural scarcity of certainly
in white music. Of course, it's a wonderful
period from black, the 767576, but it wasn't a great period for
(20:05):
white music. There seemed as though there was
nothing happening. So that was one thing, and now
there's too much happening. And secondly, McLaren and
Westwood were able to really focus something and we're able
to present that. In a very stark form, really, to
the media, who then was still able to apply a focus.
(20:28):
There weren't that many music magazines.
Hundreds of thousands of young people every week read the music
press. In retrospect, Nicholas, you're
not going to get that concentration of media again.
And your book England is Dreaming, you trace the history
of beginning of punk through Churchill.
And when you talk about the Mohican and the Paris riots and
(20:49):
then how all of that confluence of situations, we came to Jamie
Reed and Malcolm McLaren messingabout, in many ways it seemed to
just happen. Is that a fair assessment or you
think it was something that was coming for a while?
I think Jamie and Malcolm glamorized 1968.
I think they felt it pull, I think it inspired them, gave
(21:14):
them something to work with, andthey transmuted it into
different forms. So I think it's valid in that
respect. So it's an entirely different
media landscape and it's an entirely different situation.
If I was a young person, the things that I would be concerned
about would be climate change. Is that something that you're
concerned about? Very much so, yeah, because it
(21:35):
affects everybody on the planet.But is it something that you're
actively trying to make a difference?
It's something I observe. I'm not involved in any
organisations trying to make a change.
I try to live responsible, responsibly and it's something
that I worry about a great deal.So if I was a young person,
that's the difference now, I wouldn't be involved in that
(21:57):
kind of culture. I would be involved in activism
concerning climate change. What do you think about the Just
Stop Oil movement and ExtinctionRebellion?
Do you think they can achieve anything?
It all depends whether you thinkthat nonviolent forms of protest
are going to achieve anything. And do.
(22:20):
You I remain equivocal about that.
Right. All right.
Well, thank you, John. OK.
Cheers. Bye, bye, bye bye.
My name is Richard Smith and I'myour host.
I'm a filmmaker and art directorand Once Upon a time I was part
of the big 80s. I designed record covers for
Depeche Mode. I danced with Bono, discussed
(22:42):
art with Mick Jagger and drank tea with Suzie Sue.
I also grew up during those turbulent times in England in
the late 70s and was driven by the Do it I obsessed over bands
like Joy Division and New Order and went on to work for the
album cover designer Peter Savile.
I believe that year, that momentin 1976 when a bunch of foul
mouthed yobs cursed and swore onnational television, changed the
(23:05):
future of culture forever and iswhat brought us to where we are
today. So where do we go from here?
Will emerging new technologies be the catalyst that tears down
the walls of mediocrity, throwing culture and society
into chaos and revolution again?We'll have to wait and see.
This has been another episode ofDestroy.
Thank you for listening destroyisaberightbackstudiosproductionlearnmore@berightbackstudios.com
(23:30):
and please tune in again for another episode of Destroy the
Influence of Punk podcast wherever you listen or download.
Does it ever feel like you're a marketing professional just
speaking into the boy boy? Well, with LinkedIn ads, you can
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